Slashdot Mirror
'Gorilla Arm' Will Keep Touch Screens From Taking Over
Hugh Pickens writes "With Windows 8, Microsoft has made a billion-dollar gamble that personal computing is taking a new direction and that new direction is touch, says David Pogue. It's efficient on a touchscreen tablet. But Microsoft expects us to run Windows 8 on our tens of millions of everyday PCs. Although touch has been incredibly successful on our phones, tablets, airport kiosks and cash machines, Pogue says touch will never take over on PCs. The reason? Gorilla Arms. There are three big differences between tablet screens and a PC's screen: angle, distance and time interval. The problem is 'the tingling ache that [comes] from extending my right arm to manipulate that screen for hours, an affliction that has earned the nickname of gorilla arm.' Some experts say gorilla arm is what killed touch computing during its first wave in the early 1980s but Microsoft is betting that Windows 8 will be so attractive that we won't mind touching our PC screens, at least until the PC concept fades away entirely. 'My belief is that touch screens make sense on mobile computers but not on stationary ones,' concludes Pogue. 'Microsoft is making a gigantic bet that I'm wrong.'"
It doesn't need assistance from physiology. ;-)
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
It hurts like hell to use a touch screen for hours.
touché
A simple, to the point analysis, naming the problems with their name.
I admit looking at the interface evolution with a lot of interest eg what are my kids going to prefer.
My six year old doesn't seem to mind the keyboard though.
So what large vertical desktop displays even have touch screens? Sounds like they are talking about hardware that shows absolutely no sign of happening.
Since you're on Slashdot, like me, you have no life and you probably eat lunch sitting at your desk with crap on your hands. I have no need to smear all that over my monitor. With tablets and phones, it's ok because you can grab a corner of your shirt and clean it off. I'm not going to flash my monitor to wipe off my burger grease.
There may be no "I" in team, but there's also no "F" in way.
This is a bad argument. Touch screens are meant to complement keyboards and mice, not replace them. One can make the case of them being extremely practical in day-to-day work activities without interfering at all with how things are already done. It would be a welcome, and OPTIONAL addition. If you don't like 'em, don't use 'em. Simple as that.
I use my iPad regularly for work, for extended periods of time sometimes. As an extremely portable platform, it isn't all that bad for typing larger amounts of text, though it is not ideal. I've tried using it as a mini laptop by standing it upright and using a Bluetooth keyboard. That's the setup that Microsoft envision, apparently. And you know what? Turns out the thing that I've been missing most on my iPad when using it standalone for typing/drawing isn't a keyboard. It's a mouse, or at least a trackpad. A mouse offers precision and speed; no click and hold necessary since a mouse has buttons. A touchscreen is more useful on other cases perhaps, but or a lot of common tasks it can't beat a mouse.
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
of touch screens is that the long-honored convention of not touching a desktop monitor screen seems to be flying out the window. Seems like three times a week I have to resist the urge to break an arm as one of my co-workers puts their greasy finger prints on my screen.
Touchscreens are doing just fine.
Just like the mouse didn't replace the keyboard, touch input isn't going to replace the mouse, but rather augment it. There are things that a mouse is much better suited for, and therefore it won't go away. But in a couple years, all new computers will have touch capability. Smart people will use touch when it makes sense. Some people will forgo the mouse completely. Some people won't use the touch at all. But it will be there.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
I already get irate if someone feels the need to molest my screen with his greasy, grubby paws. Now these imbeciles should have an excuse for it? No way.
Seriously, that's more a reason to avoid touch screens at all cost more than gorilla arm syndrome could.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
[citation needed]
Is it like the sweaty Ballmer's Arms? Or would that be Monkey-Arm?
Why would Ballmer be taking such a big risk to destroy Windows completely? Is he insane, or just way too much over-confident that whatever shit he imposes on his billion-strong user base, they will just lap it up for ever? Why not make 'touch' an option for those who like it, and continue with the Classic keyboard-mouse interface for the rest of the sane computing world?
If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
I've used touch screens on stationary devices for ages. Think things like information kiosks, "whiteboard" like situations and similar. Oh wait, you mean personal stationary devices?
OK, I'm sure that there are many applications for stationary touch screens on 'personal computers'.
Example: Two designers manipulating something on the screen. There's only one mouse, and sometimes it's easier to just turn things around using a finger or stylus rather than pass the mouse across.
Example: Sometimes I'm reading something, and it's just easier (or perceived to be quicker) to point the stylus at the screen rather than manipulate the mouse.
Example: An older person with not so fine-motor control. Rather than move the darn mouse, just click with your finger!
I'm sure you can come up with other examples.
The point is, the touchscreen does not replace the mouse, just like the mouse did not replace the keyboard. And just like voice hasn't and won't replace the keyboard. The various input methods compliment each other.
HELP MY ACCOUNT HAS BEEN HACKED BY AN ILLIBERAL ART STUDENT SET TO DESTROY THE INTERWEBZ!
Windows 8 is also failing because there are not very many touch screens out there. Who wants to upgrade their hardware just to put a new OS on it? Even the hardware that is ONLY AVAILABLE with Windows 8 thanks to Microsoft's illegal and anti-competitive practices often enough does not come with a touch screen.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
The biggest problem I have with my Galaxy Tab is sites that rely on mouse over messages and mouse over drop down menus. Since there is no mouse cursor, I can't activate the message or drop down. nfl.com is a good example of this. You can navigate to "scores" easily but getting to "standings" is problematic. All of the sites that rely on a mouse cursor or Flash can be rebuilt to support tablets but I'm not sure this is an improvement.
The lack of mouse over messages is a problem with icons as well. If I don't know what an ambiguous icon does, the only way to find out is to poke the icon or wade through documentation.
Do the decision makers at Microsoft not have any rotator cuffs? Because just the thought of reaching out to touch a desktop monitor all day makes mine start to ache.
If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-Automatic_Ground_Environment
You know, the computer system that started even before Sputnik was launched? (So no, we don't have computers because of NASA, OK?)
It used a light gun. Same complaint. Arm hurts. This is the problem with ignorance of history. Not only do you get people with weird beliefs about the origins of technology, (like the often-repeated myth that only space can cause technology when it's the other way around) but you forget important lessons.
Touch screens and light pens suck on a vertical surface. Mount the display on about a 30 degree slope, like a sheet of paper on a drafting table, and the gorilla arm problem goes away.
I like my iPad, and the iPad mini has its place, but I really want to see iOS devices that are far larger, like standard B, C, and D sheets.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
I'm fairly certain touch will become a stock feature on any display once the cost of adding it has become marginal. That does not mean it will be the only input source, or even the main input source. It does not need to be as long as it does not cost (much) more to have a touch-enabled screen - which it won't once the feature is embedded in the actual display panel/controller combination.
--frank[at]unternet.org
Stop propagating the myth Steve Jobs started that few people bother to test first hand.
Here's some articles from people who actually USED Windows 8:
Surprisingly, touchscreen laptops don't suck
Touchscreens and the Myth of Windows 8 ‘Gorilla Arm’
Microsoft could probably care less if touch doesn't take off. It's Kinect that they want to flourish. Why smear across the screen when you can switch between apps with the wave of an arm
Lol. Yeah, there will be this time when we stop using personal universal information processing machines, because we love shiny locked-down fixed-functionality rocks... err, I mean appliances... so much! It will be called "the age of the digital caveman". ;)
Rarely has somebody failed so hard as this guy. ^^
Its much harder to clean fingerprints of a bigger screen than to swipe your phone on your shirt
Your'e all thinking it, I just said it for you
what killed touch computing during its first wave in the early 1980s
The PC era stuff they're talking about is At Least the third wave.
The first wave was in the 60s/70s very fuzzy was not there to see it.
The second wave was around 1980 in the pre-PC era. Basically, light pens. The end user need not be informed nor know the difference nor need the UI be modified to "touch" vs light pen.
Having lived thru it, there were three classes of light pens around 1980. One was exotic mhz class light sensors that "watched" the phosphor and the video waveforms, and correlated them together to give a simple X Y coordinate. I have no experience with them. I believe Apple had hardware for this?
The next class is "digital" with weird interfaces. My father had a light pen for a TRS80 model3 which used the cassette port and I believe it operated like a modem, where a 0 on the cassette port was 1100 hz and a 1 was 2200 hz or whatever, so a simple light controlled oscillator fed into the cassette input was fast, simple, and worked pretty well. It was not my hardware so I may be off in some details, although I am 100% certain it interfaced via the cassette interface. UI was much cruder than the hardware system above, and amounted to illumate/flash a square on the screen, do you see light? If so the pen is touching, if not, try flashing the next square. Worked pretty well, and fast, for 1 of n selections where n is less than 5 or so, not so good for full screen.
The next class, which I actually built and used for my radio shack color computer, was a simple light detector feeding into an analog input. Probably a joystick axis. This amounts to a CdS cell and a resistor in a model rocket cardboard adapter tube and some cabling. Identical software to above. Back in the olden days, home computer analog inputs were very crude and slow, so this was quite a bit slower than the cassette input 1100 hz or whatever device above. But it did work.
There were other gadgets mostly I/O prohibitive that amounted to a frame around a screen and flashing IR LEDs and looking at phototransistor outputs. Serious reflection problems, resolution problems, uses tons of I/O. Pretty fast, if done right, however. I suppose in the modern era, its too expensive to make a "touch" screen material when you could use two webcams and what amounts to something like a crude version of kinect software.
The main problem with touch-ish interfaces in 1980, oddly enough, was the same gorilla arm problem so recently discovered in 2013. Who ever would have guessed human anatomy would evolve so little in a mere two generations. As the endless wheel of IT revolves, as this technology is "reinvented" every decade or so, we'll make the same discovery that it sucks in 2020, 2030, 2040, 2050, repeat into infinity. Also the "human-computer" bandwidth of the UI was ridiculously slow, you could do more with a keyboard in 10 seconds than a touch/light screen in a minute, and back then people believed learning should provide rewards, rather than the modern "all are and will forever be noobs" and "trophies for all, equally" and all that garbage.
"Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
The fact that Microsoft missed something this *basic* doesn't exactly bode well for the future of the company. HUMANS matter. Machines don't.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
Vertical desktop touch screens have been with us since at least 1972. The University of Illinois' PLATO project didn't just deploy them on a significant scale, it exposed impressionable students to them.
Since then, many perfectly good touchscreen technologies have been available, commercially, and have been widely deployed e.g. in kiosks. And GUI software support behind them, e.g. Windows for Pen Computing, GO, etc. has been around for two decades.
Meanwhile, successful deployments of touchscreen technology have been widespread since, let's say, 1997 and the Palm Pilot--but always on small, handheld, horizontal-screen devices.
If large vertical touchscreens are really usable for sustained periods of time, and if they really add something of substantial value to mouse point-and-click GUI's, I find it very, very hard to believe they wouldn't have already gained traction.
I'd add that if multitouch gestures are really a significant improvement, I think it's at least as likely that they will take the form of detached, horizontal trackpads like the Apple Magic Trackpad. Horizontal surface, small-muscle coordination.
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
It's called using a 'mouse' and 'keyboard'. I touch both of them and the way I touch and move them controls what is on the screen. I need to use the screen on my tablet and phone because I'm not at my desk. What works well on the desktop doesn't work on the phone, it needed different input techniques. That doesn't mean those techniques work well on the desktop.
.. would I like a touch screen on my desktop? A little, most mouse-type devices are limited in movement to do things like rotate, although with the appropriate software it's possible, just not as intuitive. Most of screen manipulation is simply clicking, double/long clicking, or moving and mice cal already do that. They can also be used to zoom and swipe with the appropriate software. You can't right click a touch screen, although long clicking kinda sorta is the same thing I guess. Definitely can't middle click. It would be handy for media manipulation at times. But how is that going to work on my 72" HDTV??? I need the capability for both to use when I need to.
Now
And explain to me why you decided that bigger icons on my desktop were a good idea, especially since most of the time I have these things you call 'windows' up and can't really see any of them when they are active so what's the purpose?? I have dual monitors, and most of the time I have windows open on both and most of my desktop is hidden. I'm doing this thing called 'work'. The little pop-up notifications that pop-up then fade away work just fine and are much more useful.
Windows 8 is not on my list of upgrades. If you want me to upgrade, give me something that is a reason to upgrade, like runs faster. I don't care about boot or standby times, my PC is on 24x7 and I rarely reboot. In fact, the only time I reboot is when you need to install updates because you haven't figured out how to do that without rebooting, like UNIX has done for decades you idiots.
I rarely read replies, it's my opinion and if you thought about your opinion a little more, I'm OK with that.
Add complement/compliment to brakes/breaks, lose/loose, rein/reign, toe/tow and all the other illiteracies spelling checkers have foisted on us.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
Actually, I used a light pen on a PDP-1 and my problem was that I got a sort spot on the pad of my index finger. Normally, there was a shutter closed over the sensor, and you had a slide a little spring-loaded slide to uncap it. The spring was probably stronger than it should have been, and the slide had little ridges on it to give a better grip.
My finger didn't actually get blistered, but close. It got sore and painful enough to make me realize I needed to avoid using it for a day.
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
Anyone who spends that much time with their tablet probably already has a 'Gorilla Arm'. At least one.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Mount the screen at an angle. Recess it. Problem solved. Dell S2340T 23" Multi-Touch Monitor
While I'm not entirely certain gorilla arm is a big an issue as it's made to be (if extending your arm repeatedly was really that painful we wouldn't be using white boards would we?) I don't see my self using a vertical touch screen, putting touch that far away seems odd.
However a PC set out like a Nintendo DS (for lack of a better analogous device) would be awesome. Keyboard when you need it, drawing board when you need it, move things up to the top screen to view, type on and read then down to the bottom for in depth manipulation. Probably still with a mouse just to soften the change.
Fatigue: it costs more energy to move your whole arm and body to touch a screen than it takes to move a mouse pointer. That's what the article covers.
Obfuscation: Where the mouse pointer does cover 'some' pixels on the screen, a finger, and its attached hand and arm will obfuscate a much larger part of the view, which requires the user to remember what was under his finger before touching it. If this happens too often or a UI changes rapidly (eg a web site), this could lead to frustrations. Especially with subjects like the elderly.
Precision: You lose precision, even with a perfectly healthy human being, a fingerprint has a bigger surface than a pixel-perfect pointer, therefor your UI needs to be a lot more spacious to allow for users to "aim" correctly and allow for some correctional margin. If the UI design did not take this into account, this too can lead to frustration (mis-touching).
Windows 8 is a half-assed execution of some good ideas, the signature Microsoft symptom since Ballmer took over.
This is obviously another step in the coming resurrection of the Amiga.
It's odd that everyone seems to be hung up on the aspect of pain related to actually holding your arm up in front of you and physically touching a touchscreen, and have seem to have completely forgotten that Microsoft also owns the Kinect technology. Touchscreen doesn't necessarily mean it needs to be physical (or at least I would hope not). Future designs in computing will likely take advantage of 3D space around a user.
Hell, given the fact that lawsuits will run rampant for RSI-related issues, ergonomics will become a priority for none other than liability. If I can rely on anything in our litigious society, it's certainly that.
... of wrist-relieving handrests. Here comes the anti-gorilla-arm adaptive elbow rest that keeps your elbow approx. 30cm high - strapped around your arm, did anybody file a patent for that yet?
Fun for 7 minutes then back to the controller.
the oily film that develops could be harvested for use in gorilla arm ointments.
While not exactly a touchscreen, I spent many hours/days/weeks/months programming and using an HP 9845C back in the 1980s. It had a series of 8 soft-keys built into the lower edge of the display that could be controlled via software to display menu options and generate interrupts when pressed. Users of our software (and that of many others) used these soft-keys extensively to navigate information. Users also switched regularly back to the keyboard to enter queries, etc.
While I do remember some arm tiredness, the rapid dance of fingers across the soft-keys was so efficient for navigation that everyone loved the system. It might be worth reflecting on the details of this design. For example, the user could rest the hand on the display frame or the body of the computer without straying too far from the soft-keys; all of the "touchscreen" actions were at the lower edge of the display. Both of these features decreased arm strain.
FWIW, some applications on this machine used light-pens, which also required a touchscreen-like mechanic It might be worth exploring what use cases found these awkward devices to be wins. I notice that the Wikipedia article on light-pens claims Gorilla-arm led to the demise of light-pens, but without citation.
It seems to me, and many others, that Microsoft has an internal policy of deliberately making bad versions of Windows to increase sales. Look at the background of bad versions: Windows ME, Windows Vista, Windows 8.
A company that has a virtual monopoly can make money by deliberately abusing its customers. That's especially true when a product is complicated and customers don't have the time to become technically knowledgeable.
Many people who buy a Windows computer now will want to buy Windows 9 when it is released because Windows 8 is so weird. That tends to double sales, because customers don't pay an upgrade price, Microsoft requires them to pay for an entirely new operating system, even though there have been few changes between versions. Also, Microsoft has established multiple prices. Customers who bought Windows 7 because they didn't like Windows Vista paid far more per copy than computer manufacturers.
It seems that abuse is deliberate Microsoft company policy. Yes, Microsoft management is incompetent, but also knowingly destructive. For example, a court case established that a Microsoft manager had said before Windows Vista was released that it was not ready to be released. Knowing that, Vista was released anyway.
Microsoft has been alternating bad and good versions of operating systems since the days of DOS. For example, DOS version 3.0 had serious bugs. DOS version 3.1 fixed the bugs. Customers who owned DOS 3 were required to pay the full retail price for DOS 3.1, even though there were few changes.
At times like these, I feel so happy that I don't have any Microsoft Stock options. Seriously, as someone who is forced to use computers all day, the thought of having to stick my arm out and touch my monitors (with my sometimes grubby and greasy fingers) for hours and hours.... it's just so awful! Who are these "geniuses" at MS?! How can a company with so much resources be so inept in decision making?
My guess is that this decision was made by somebody that a) does not listen to experts b) shoots-the-messenger and c) did not test any touch-interface for any reasonable length of time and d) is unable or unwilling to research things for 5 minutes. The normal desktop PC interface is unergonomic enough, adding a vertical touchscreen turns it into a torture-device.
My diagnosis is terminal Dunning-Kruger effect in the MS executive level. They just do not think the real world applies to them as well. Time for them to die and their anti-competitive, anti-innovation monopoly with them.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
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Just like MS makes tons of money by selling MS branded mice and keyboards I have a feeling that MS branded "elbow support cushions" are the next big thing for them.
Sanity is the trademark of a weak mind. -- Mark Harrold
...aren't we running out of helium? Will we even still be able to *build* touchscreens in the future?
Well - kids are the main drawback to touchscreen for me - my iPad is sticky... I would sincerely hate to invest $$$s in a decent screen that needs a decent clean every time I need to use it.
If you can't control a mouse sitting on a surface that you can rest your hand on, why would you be able to control a finger held out at arm's length?
That's leaving aside the fact that you can change the gain for a mouse, pad or trackball. For a touchscreen you're stuck at 1:1.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
It's not that Microsoft doesn't know what customers want. It's that they are so arrogant they think they know what is better for the customer. Think, the US government...
use wanking arm as the point device. its plenty strong already.
or penis.
captcha:enduring
getting interface design ideas from shitty old 90s sci-fi.
After touch, this is the next step http://theweek.com/article/index/228287/leap-control-your-computer-with-minority-report-style-gestures [theweek.com]
For me the biggest problem is games. I don't see popular PC games (MMOs especially) going to an entirely touchscreen interface soon (if ever). Sorry, I'm not gonna play Angry Birds on my PC. Sorry Microsoft, but the mouse and keyboard are never going to die as long as there are PC games.
Don't be too sure that touch screens won't appear on PCs. At one time, PCs had only one monitor (can you believe it?) What's wrong with having a touch screen instead of a keyboard and multiple monitors?
Don't stop where the ink does.
Where do I start. I think that some people mistakenly assume that Windows 8 is about touch, when in fact it's about homogeneity. I've got Windows 8 on 4 devices including Desktop, Laptop, Tablet, and Phone and the primary reason is not to enable touch experience; it's to enable a seamless experience when transitioning from one device to the next. I would say that after you spend about 20-30 minutes getting everything set the way that you want the experience across devices is very good. I don't have a touch desktop or laptop and really don't even notice. I have all the shortcuts setup on my taskbar and the ability to simply start typing in order to find and open any application, setting, file, etc. Simple and seamless.
The idea that people don't want to stretch their arms out for hours on end seems sort of obvious. At the end of the day, touchscreens are ill suited for real data entry.
I feel like people are jumping the gun though. I love MS bashing as much as anyone, but remember Windows 7 is still around. The longevity of XP proved that MS can procrastinate and fuck around and release a garbage OS like Vista without losing desktop market share. People just stick with the old one.
If 8 fails, which seems likely, MS won't lose that much sleep. Hell, judging by XP they could spin out 7 for another decade to get the next one right.
Touch screens on laptops, and even more so on desktops, can useful as accessories for occasional light use. UI features that allow for direct manipulation could be a nice touch. (haha.) But a UI that is strongly touch-centric is just a stupid idea, classic "me too" from incompetent marketeers who have no clue why or how things actually work for customers.
They aren't popular, but they do exist. Dell makes one, the ST2220T. We have one at work. It is a 22" monitor (IPS) with an optical touch screen interface that can do 2 point multi-touch. It works ok. Windows 7 works natively with it and goes in to touch mode when you plug it in.
However the fact that it has existed for quite some time, and that you've never heard of it, tells you how popular it has been.
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Obviously W8 is a complete disaster but having a touch screen on a laptop can be nice when implemented correctly. Ergonomically, it makes a lot of sense actually. I compared the strain on my arm when swiping my fingers across the screen of my laptop and when using the mouse. When I rest my elbow in front of the laptop, the strain on my arm is even less then when using a mouse, because when using a mouse I have to retract my arm and can only support the weight of my arm with my hand. When touching my screen, I barely have to move my arm. I move my hand slightly forward and I am able to touch my screen anywhere. Another big bonus is the directness. Using a mouse goes like: looking-for-mouse; move-hand-to-mouse; moving-mouse-pointer-to-correct-screen-location, clicking-mouse-button. With a touch screen I can simply: move arm 10 centimeters forward; press whatever I want on the screen with my finger. It's just more convenient and faster.
But it would be a mistake to use the same UI which was designed for use by a mouse as a touch-screen UI. If a user interacts with the UI using the touch screen, UI elements like menus should be larger and behave differently than when they are accessed with a mouse. For example, scrolling a page could be a swipe on the screen, but using a mouse a swipe would be awkward. Specifically, the mouse paradigm where you move a little pointer on the screen and press a button must not be copied to the touch-screen paradigm, such that pressing a finger on the screen is equivalent for the OS a mouse-button press. Such an implementation would be disastrous. Instead, the UI should adapt to larger fingers, be less picky on where someone lands his fingers, and use larger, dynamically appearing GUI elements so users can see what they are doing, as their hand and fingers are now in front of the screen. And use swipe gestures. Lots.
I think laptops with touch screens are the future, but I suppose it will take some iterations before Microsoft and Apple understand the differences and optimize their GUIs for use by touch screen as input device. In the mean time, creating a single UI for both mouse and touch-screen input is plain dumb and a waste of effort.
My karma ran over your dogma
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Many people spend entire workdays at drafting desks. In principle, that's a perfectly fine way of working; of course, hardware manufacturers need to catch up.
Windows 8's problem isn't its support for touch, it's its poor UI and bad integration of the legacy cruft with the new UI. Shame, too, because Microsoft had a real opportunity to change things for the better.
We have the monitor sitting where it does because it is easy and non-stressful to look at. You keep your neck in a neutral position and can see what you are doing. Your mouse and keyboard are then on the desk for the same reason with regards to your hands. If I move the monitor down to the desk, I'll suffer from neck and back pain in a hurry, because I'll be working hunched over.
Also, if you make your input and output device the same device, then you have the problem that your hands are blocking a large part of your output device. My keyboard is pretty large and my hands block off most of it from view when I type. Why would I want to do that with a display?
You could have two displays, but then the question is again why. Keyboards are mice offer excellent tactile feedback because they are physical devices. I can touch type at 80wpm+ on a physical keyboard, literally with my eyes closed. I can't come anywhere near that on a touchscreen.
Touchscreens are useful only in some situations, mainly where you have a limited amount of space and as such your display and input devices need to be the same. There is just no reason to want them on the desktop. They are more expensive, and less usable, than what we already have.
I think people forget that touchscreens are NOT new. They've been around for a long time, yet there's been no interest in bringing them to desktop computing on a large scale. There are plenty of reasons for it, ergonomics top among them.
"Why is mouselessness seemingly so important to people who are sworn off Windows anyway?"
Because the Linux distros are moving in that direction as well. Two new desktop environments have been created for Linux, to revolt against the touch GUI's. I'm currently in Mate right now. Cinnamon doesn't really appeal to me. Enlightenment is the other option, but it's still not ready for prime time. I've abandoned Gnome3 and I had already left KDE when version 4 came out.
The two desktops that I am most familiar, most comfortable with, are Gnome2 and Windows Classic. The distro that gives me what I'm comfortable with will gain my allegiance. Right now, that means Linux Mint Debian.
"Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
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https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bw7LQposDT4DM2ZpbXMtX1BSWk9HWkNtMGFlUW0zdw/edit?pli=1 if anyone is interested.
This is the effects of RTC fatigue and acute onset is evident for users where any form of continuous movement is required but can be minimized by allowing the elbow to bear the strain rather than the shoulder. Rather simple ergonomic principles really...
1) Why would you be poking at the screen if you're using a desktop computer in traditional desktop computer ways? Stupid is as stupid does. Don't be stupid
2) If you're using a laptop, the touch screen in a few inches away, and is actually less work to reach than a mouse.
3) If you're using a large form-factor screen for a touch-like activity, odds are (like any designer using pen input screens, as they have for two decades) the screen is either flat to the work surface, or close to it.
So the article is basically saying that its uncomfortable to do something you'd be a moron to do in the first place? Got it.
Windows 8 does not force you to use the metro interface - is it that hard to click the desktop icon? There are even 3rd party add-ons which will send you right to the desktop on boot and also "restore" the start menu as it was known in XP and 7.
As to the metro interface - I really don't have too big an issue with it. Yes, it is an adjustment because people are used to vertical scrolling and breaks (optimized or not) in that direction rather than the horizontal scrolling/breaking that is in win 8.
This is WHY doing an "iron-cross" on the rings is SO hard (I used to be able to do one in highschool/college) - for the EXACT reasons you noted no less!
* Anyone here, don't even HOLD anything, & try this (only takes a minute or so)...
HOLD YOUR ARMS STRAIGHT OUT TO YOUR SIDES (not in front of you), & 'whirl' them @ your hands in small circles - slow, fast, won't matter (not after too long, lol)...
You tell us - what "gave out" on you first, due to lactic acid buildup (mostly, the rest is "poor construction" in this area of our bodies, as Runaway1956 posted)...
For me? It's deltoids (shoulder muscle). THIS? This is just like doing "skiers exercise" (another 'killer') around your knees... no matter HOW MUCH you train? We're just NOT BUILT RIGHT to do this kind of stuff @ the joints!
APK
P.S.=> On the "iron cross" - you could 'cheat' (in a way) by bending your arms @ the elbow, but it's obvious to judges you're not tough enough to do so WITHOUT doing that (I never met anyone that hand the shoulder & lats to hold it perfect either - not once)...
... apk
I remember blackboards. Teacher would stand in front of the blackboard, spend maybe thirty seconds scribbling something, wipe her hands, then wander around the room for two or three minutes, while blathering away on the importance of what she just wrote. Then, she would return to the blackboard, blather for another minute and a half, turn around, and write something new up there.
That corresponds to how people use touchscreen gestures on a desktop/laptop. You don't touch the screen all the time, just reach every now and then.
My exception safety is -fno-exceptions.
And by the sales number of touch screen PC's they are right.
It's under preferences, universal access, keyboard shortcuts. Assign the keystroke of your choice. Enjoy.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
... but why don't they replace the keyboard+mouse with a touch-enabled device? It's like they never considered that possibility. You get to keep the entire screen estate but you add complex input to it.
uhm...
Vm will need full PCI / PCI-E / usb / firewire / ect IO pass though and away to get full use of video cards.
will need sideloading and lose to no sand boxing.
Lot's of pro apps like adobe CS / autocad / video and sound apps / ECT will not work well in a sandbox. Also over laping windows is nice even more so on a big screen.
windows explorer has no metro app from MS so you need desktop mode to do build in stuff also need desktop mode for calculator.
Metro is just stapled on top of the old desktop poorly.
Yeah. If they're expecting that, they're fucking nuts.
No. Plain-Jane PC sales don't have the room for explosive growth that tablets and phones do.
The problem is, the devices they're betting on are media "consumption" devices.
That's fine and all.
But there's still a HUGE installed base of PCs whose sole purpose is "productivity".
These machines see almost no benefit from tacking a touchscreen on. And they do things that are either impractical for touch interfaces or just flat out unfeasible.
The rasputinian PC has been "dying" for over 30 years now. As a form factor/concept, it isn't going away. Period.
Anyone who tells you different is an intellectual cripple or lying and probably trying to sell you something unsavory.
Give it the same credence deserved of the 2012 Apocalypse. (None.)
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Have gnu, will travel.
When I work on a PC, my screen is further away from me than my arms can reach. This is necessary to avoid eye strain, etc. Touch screens simply do not work in the standard work-on-a-PC for an hour scenario.
Marry that with the fact that I have much finer control with a mouse for clicking on icons, links, etc than I could ever have with my finger and touch screen is dead as an input device for standard PC usage scenarios. Touch screens are irritating enough on phones (very hard to click just the button you want on an Android phone when your finger is twice the size of the buttons). They are useless in a PC environment.
Eventually people will realize that even tablets are very limited and that the ROI in terms of what you get for what you pay simply isn't there today. The only reason that iPad sold at all is because Jobs has been brain washing his minions for 10+years that if it is bright and shiny and made by Apple you must buy it. My company gave me an iPad 3 recently and my attempts to use it to do real work have failed miserably. I can read some email, type short replies and that is about it. The most useful task I've found for it is as a portable DVD player to distract my kid on long airplane flights. Portable DVD players do not cost $800...
So I've been using a Microsoft Surface as my primary machine (everything except software development) for almost two months now and I'm not having any problem with "gorilla arm". And I don't think most people will. The reason being that the only time that I need to touch the screen a lot is when I'm consuming content (reading blogs, watching videos, etc.) For that I ditch the keyboard and hold it like a tablet. When I'm creating things, i.e., e-mail, writing proposals and documentation, my hands don't really leave the keyboard very much. I'm typing this on my Surface and I'm not having any problems because there's no need to touch the screen when creating content.
Why doesn't Slashdot ever get slashdotted?
Metro is problematic from the start. Microosoft's stated reason for Metro is that they believe that touch computing is the future and that enterprise will demand it. The other reason for Metro is that they want a consistent interface across all windows platforms. The problem is that there is not many touch laptops out there and they cost much more. The updating tiles make sense, but you cannot filter information that is being displayed. The big issue is no start menu. Sure you can type in the name of the app, but what if you cannot remember all the programs you have. You can install Smart Menu, but why should we have to ....? Why are the Metro apps all full screen only. Multitasking just became a big headache...! Business and especially mid to large business are going to be very reluctant to implement win8 and be forced to spend lots of money to retrain their users on a unintuitive GUI. Most businesses are sticking with Win7 or are probably using the Win7 downgrade for new machines. Does touch make sense, possibly. Perhaps some users will use the touch only sometimes. In the end I think we are going to see either a Win8 SP2 reloaded or they will rush out a version of Win9.
We have one and we don't use the touch features for exactly that reason. They are a great idea until you are sitting in front of one with no mouse.
Weird, a pun that actually is appropriate?
What the parent is partially suggesting is that Microsoft intentionally sabotages their own product to boost future profit which seems to me a bit like "Broken Window Fallacy" in economics. If you are in the business of building and installing windows, wouldn't be a good idea to sneak around and break people's windows? It turns out that this is a bad idea because people end up spending their budgets more on Windows and less on other items. With that in mind, suggesting Microsoft purposely released a borked Windows 8 to improve sales for Windows 9 is crazy due to the amount of money they would have to knowingly flush. And just like the window company, there is a big risk where if they are caught they are DOOMED because customers will flee to competitors and alternatives.
Sales where big on Win95, XP and Win7. Was that because of the stuff between? Partially but for a reason not mentioned: time. If people hear how clunky and broken Windows ME was they sit on their Win95 machine until XP came out. By the time that happened hardware had nearly turned over to completely different class so buying an entirely new machine made a lot of sense. Sure WinME sucked but it was more the case that many had to buy new hardware by the time XP released. Do we have a window when Win9 will come? If the pace of hardware dev from AMD and Intel keeps moving on track then people will feel they need to buy a new machine regardless of how much they love or hate Win8 or how much they love or hate Win9.
What happens when we transition to our wall bound 82 inch (or bigger) flat screens? Are we even going to be able to reach them? :)
Well, screw having to reach for it when it can sit wirelessly in your lap and not fuck up your view with greasy smears jackasses.
P.S. I love my tablet =)
Microsoft's gamble is with Kinect not touchscreens.
How is JavaScript not type-checked? You can't do object operations with an integer or vice versa or call a method that an object doesn't implement; trying to do so will throw a runtime exception. Or do you mean that you can't statically check that all assignments to a particular variable will be references to objects with a particular prototype?
I've seen people typing papers on an iPad with a little bluetooth keyboard when they've got a full-size laptop sitting right next to them.
Might it be because they started to type the paper on the iPad and haven't yet had a chance to copy it to the cloud and then copy it back to the full-size laptop to work on it there? Or because they know they'll have to leave the full-size laptop at home or wherever before they finish the paper?
But that's why there's third party utilities and skins to fill in the gaps.
Until Microsoft changes the hooks on which these third party utilities rely in the next service pack. Or until Microsoft starts running everything in a stricter sandbox specifically to rule out the ability of third party utilities to affect anything system-wide.
I held it for just over 2 minutes... but I KNOW I'll be "hurtin' 4 certain" tomorrow a.m. too (outta shape, not like I was in my younger days).
* Enjoy the test... lol (or not).
(I *think* I could've held it longer, but I've also got a shot rotator cuff from lifting + an injury - not worth "testing" it longer for worse injury, long-term, is all!)
APK
P.S.=> I don't *think* this will be what "kills" Windows 8 on the desktop alone though - 4 other things WILL though:
1.) Economic hard times
2.) Lack of familiarity with an 'alien' interface (fine for smartphones, notepads, etc. but after nearly 18++ yrs. using the paradigm of the Win9x desktop & for me @ least, OS/2 WorkPlace Shell before it? No way, unneeded)
3.) Hardware - folks ALREADY have 'screamers' & going BACK to #1 above? They're just not buying!
4.) Per #3 - not enough "bang for the buck" benefit (only ones I like, ME, the "poster child for Windows fanboy" on /. is saying this too mind you) - only 2-3 things they did RIGHT on the Win8 desktop model (2 types of heap memory protections, & automated service cutoffs (which in the latter I've been doing manually for decades anyhow))
... apk
Whoever thought that it would be a good idea to have multiple files with identical names but different cases should be shot.
When you establish user-friendly equivalence classes between sets of code points, you have to be careful. Even if the mapping from lowercase to uppercase is one-to-one and onto in ASCII, it's not the case in general in Unicode. For example, should the German letter "ß" be counted as equivalent to the letters "SS" or "SZ"? Should the Latin letter A and the similarly shaped Greek and Cyrillic letters be counted as equivalent?
My datapoint contradicts that claim a bit:
I've had a laptop with a touch screen (hp pavillon dv3) for two years and a bit, and I use touchpad AND keyboard AND touch screen to interact. When I want to select a big button or activate a window I find it far more convenient to touch the screen (with the back of my finger so it doesn't leave greasy prints), than wiggling the mouse around so I can see where the pointer is, moving it to the right place and clicking. (I sometimes even first touch approximately the point I want to hit and then move the mouse for fine tuning).
I'd even add that I miss that at work and when I use another (touchless) laptop. All the time I just want to bring that window to front or move a window away (I'm on linux so when the alt key is pressed (with my left hand) I can move a window around with my right hand as easily and naturally as moving a piece of paper around on my desk.
I get pain in my wrists and fingers due to mouse and keyboard usage, not the occasional touch.
I'd HATE having to do everything by touch however. I want my mouse AND my touch screen.
... it's because I support Windows all day long and I can NEVER get people to understand the difference between a backslash and a slash! And these people have been using their computers for decades. It's a failure. So when you make things all new again, don't forget to go to slashes.
Is adjacent to the backspace key. hth
I don't really get articles like this. Just because win8 CAN be used on on touchscreen doesn't mean that will be the only way to interact with that device. Everyone loves to bash MS for their lack of foresight, how they are going to alienate all their customers, etc., etc. But they created an OS that was flexible enough to run on mobile devices in just that start menu mode (metro) or upgrade win7 for use in workstations or desktop pcs. Kinda cool I think. Have the bashers USED win8? Maybe, maybe not. I use it all day, every day. It appears to me to be a nice desktop upgrade to windows 7, nothing more. Why? Because I use it as a DESKTOP not a touch device. I never see the start screen unless I want to see it. This is the same start screen that guys like David Pogue claim will take over your computer. Gorilla Arm? Give me a break. Who uses touchscreens to develop code, write word documents or get business work done? Touchscreens are not desktop pc replacements. They are great for certain things, but they do NOT replace the workstation.
> Microsoft simply has no idea what its customers want or need.
You are not a Microsoft customer. You may be an end user, a customer of a Microsoft customer.
Microsoft's customers are the OEMs, the retail stores, resellers and bulk licenced enterprises. These customers want 'New Shiny', greater hardware resource requirements, and reasons for end users to discard existing machines. Vista did this very nicely: it needed bigger hardware than XP machines had and was so awful that the next release, Windows 7, was bought by the truckload to replace it. Windows 7, though, was not so good for business as it required _less_ hardware than Vista.
Now, to make up for this, Windows 8 is allegedly for touch so this should have resulted in new touch monitors or complete systems, new touch laptops, as _everyone_ flocked to the new way of working and dumped iPads and iPhones for the new Windows. - which is what Microsoft's actual customers wanted.
End users want iStuff and Android.
I touchpad like Apple's Magic Trackpad would be beneficial for Windows 8 uptake. There are a couple on the market but I don't know how well they work. They might need support from Microsoft to be truly as good as Apple's is on the Mac.
Next, make a mid-size keyboard. That is, a keyboard with the standard inverted T arrow arrangement with the page, delete, end, etc buttons above it, but without the numeric keypad. A keyboard between the compact ones and the full-size ones. Why? So you can place the trackpad next to the keyboard and still have room for a mouse.
I use my Magic Trackpad almost exclusively on the Mac, but there are a couple things for which a mouse is better. A more compact but still full-featured keyboard would make it easier to have both available.
Brilliant deduction that touch took off on pads and phones. On the other hand, how the hell do you use them without touch? It "might" work on a laptop but on a desktop? Gimme a break. Lean back in a chair and put your KB on your lap. Go ahead. Then use touch. I suppose it's a good way to get some exercise.
Wuddooeyeno? IITYWYBMAD? Like nuts? eclecticallyincorrect.com
Windows Vista and 7 did have a largely 3D desktop environment. Of course since the monitor itself is physically flat it's really a bunch of moderately 3D looking flat things stacked on top of each other with shaded and lighted buttons, edges and bevels. MS was a big champion of this and it was an area where they were actually correct. All those beveled edges and shading conveyed information about what was on top, what was clickable, and what was static. MS has now reversed their previous correct position and now just says those are "style" which is now out of style in favor of a "crisp, clean" interface that is flat. Now none of that information is available.
Look at something simple like a scroll bar. In windows 7 the scroll bar looks like a slightly raised shaded chunk with three little tics in the middle, sized to the amount of screen currently showing in the window. In windows 8 the scroll bar is just two different flat colors of grey. It is not inherently obvious which is the "bar" and which is represents space you can't see.
This might be an issue in the use scenarios that we've all become accustomed to, but what touch support does is open up a whole new world of computing. I'm using my Yoga on ways that I could never use a standard laptop or desktop, and it's fantastic. Of course it works just great in standard laptop mode too, and even then the touch capabilities are a nice compliment to the keyboard and mouse/touchpad. Key word being compliment.
Did you actually augment your PC experience with a touch screen and use it for 8 hours a day, or are you simply regurgitating what others have said for more clicks on your blog?
We have the monitor sitting where it does because it is easy and non-stressful to look at. You keep your neck in a neutral position and can see what you are doing.
I don't get why people are wound up in false dichotomies when thinking about Windows 8 UI (which they clearly haven't tried with a touchscreen).
I don't think anybody seriously wants to use touch on large vertical monitors. You can still use the mouse or, arguably faster, keyboard shortcuts. On laptops and the Surface, however, the screen is positioned close to the keyboard. And then there is this ridiculous mental picture of people staring at the screen while continuously holding their hands in front of it. You really can't see how this works, have never used a tablet?
My exception safety is -fno-exceptions.
and neither is it for any other normal desktop user who sits in a comfy chair.
I hear The Ballmer's leg never gets tired.
Touch input does not need to be done from the screen. Both Microsoft and Logitech have mice that recognize touch gestures across their surface.
Logitech also makes a touch pad that supports multi-touch gestures.
These device should alleviate the problem of "gorilla arm", but in the case of touch sensitive mice, I'm not sure they're a good idea. I tried using the Microsoft Touch Mouse for a few weeks and found it very annoying. Perhaps it's just me, but I found it would frequently respond to some "gesture" I hadn't intended. Usually this resulted in a window being minimized accidentally, but I once lost a considerable amount of typing when the mouse though I made a "back" gesture while posting online. I've stopped using the touch mouse and have ordered the touch pad instead.
The screens belonging to laptop, tablet-crossovers and desktop PC's will be touch enabled, where traditional input devices will be the norm. It's often convenient to have a touch enabled screen (I use one) where you find an efficient balance between reaching at the screen for certain tasks, and using a keyboard shortcut or mouse control for other tasks. I certainly don't hold my arm out for three hours on end. I've been doing this for two years and haven't had a single case of ergonomic discomfort. SO ultimately, these people are idiots, or liars, or both. No one does that with a touch enabled windows computer -- using touch as the sole input mechanism. No one. MS isn't makin big bets and taking risks on their technology. The article is essentially a lie designed to lead potential MS customers to believe MS expects the impossible from the consumer, encouraging them to ignore MS presence in the market. Hint: YOU CAN STILL USE A KEYBOARD WITH A WIN8 DESKTOP. Problem solved before the headline was even written. Surely this will be mod deleted, but I'd wish ./ editors had more common sense than to post this ridiculous propoganda
For telling me something I've know since Microsoft first announced Win8. This was one of the most obvious thing about why it would fail on Desktop. It's a good touchscreen OS for mobile devices, but on a desktop where you generally don't sit 10cm from the screen and at that point you lose tons of functionality designed for touchscreens in mind, where the mouse is just a pain to use.
Same here. I'm in terrible shape, haven't been to the gym in over a year. Picked up a broom just now and held it at arms length with one hand out to the side for 5 minutes, which seems long enough to prove the point.
As a teenager I heard a similar challenge involving holding the empty hand horizontally at arms length for five minutes. After 25 minutes without the slightest tiredness I got bored and quit. I figured I was just too skinny or something -- twiggy nerd arms must be easier to hold up than big muscly jock arms.
I'm pretty sure this "can't hold arm straight out for n minutes" is pure myth. Strange that so few people actually bother to try it.
The idea that if we have touch we'll be forced to use touch for everything is just as ridiculous as the idea that if we have a mouse we'll be forced to use the mouse for everything. It's another type of input that will be appropriate for some things and not others.
As an owner of a wacom cintiq (a combo graphics tablet/screen unit), I note I don't get gorilla arm at my PC. Why? All you need to do is have the touch screen not-vertical, easy in the era of LCDs, awkward back for 80s light pens and CRTs (which I loved as a child for short periods, why I got a cintiq really, but definitely did cause gorilla arm).
My current setup is like a "giant DS". I have a vertical screen behind/above my wacom cintiq easily used on its tilt stand. No gorilla arm.
moving my hand off the keyboard to a mouse is hard enough, let alone touching the screen!
Honestly I wish my screen were electrified to give a good jolt to every idiot who touches my screen trying to show me something.
That makes sense to me. That seems the way the original design was done.
However, the issue is whether Microsoft tests their new operating systems before they ship them. Windows XP had serious bugs until Service Pack 2.
I don't know about others, but my reflex, still from the olden CRT days, when lusers start pointing at my screen is to yell out "get your fingers off my screen". If they actually touch my screen, they lose a finger. With touchscreen phones I have the inane habit to keep cleaning the screen because of all the fingerprints that get left on it.
Ok, I know, there is no coating that you can ruin with your greasy prints, but old reflexes die hard.
It is for Kinect. You are missing the point completely. Touch will be part of it, but a minor part as time goes on. This is the second article on slashdot that deals with windows 8 that does not mention the kinect. You people are totally missing the point.
To make a really off the wall analogy, I saw some interesting analsys of Al Queda, looking it as, essentially, a PR firm doing off the wall stunts. 9/11 was the end for them, they can't top it, and it set the bar for them so high that, they only have down to go from there.
Likewise, Microsoft has done it. My wife was just ranting about this when her new laptop came with windows 8.... Windows 7 was it. They finally did it. Windows works, and works pretty well. It has worked well for a few versions now. Remember when your windows install would accumulate so much crud that if you didn't reinstall it every 6 months it just got worst and worst? I dual boot for games mostly and, I can't even think of anything to complain about other than having to mess with non-obvious settings to get it working with samba.
What is there to do after it works? Look at Linus and the kernel. He was a much bigger rock star when the Kernel didn't fully work, and was rough around the edges. As time goes on, who pays much attention to the kernel anymore? The project is still there and worked on.... but the kenel is boring now, because its working, its done. Its just peripheral stuff where its interesting. Linus is still a rock star, everyone still knows who he is, but now he only makes the front page when there is some drama.
That fine for a project like the kenrel though. The kernel makes no money and has no employees. Many devs may be paid for their work, but, its not like its anybodies product.
Microsoft however, does have products, a whole ecosystem of them.... but alternatives exist. They built a platform and exploited it to make huge market share. They got their first, and profited from it. Now, there really is just nowhere to go, and everybody else is steadily making progress, eventually they catch up. They may have nowhere to go but down
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
That is all.
Perhaps what Microsoft is betting on is that as the technology matures and laptops become affordable PC replacements (My MBP+R was not very affordable but it has successfully replaced my PC) this will become a moot point. I foresee PC replacement laptops within 2-3 years and if they can hang on to the market share until then, well they will have a nice mature OS with a reasonably mature touch interface...its a gamble but one with a good payout or a loss they would be willing to accept.
Zontar the Mindless = Jeremiah Cornelius. An alternate slashdot user registered account that Jeremiah Cornelius uses to defend himself when he screws up, and that he also uses to upward moderate his own posts via these alternate registered accounts here on /., and to downmod those of others who get the best of him and his bullshit. It's only 1 of many Jeremiah Cornelius maintains to do those things.
I recall Microsoft being called an "800lb Gorilla" back in the day. Calling arm strain caused by Windows 8 touch screens on a desktop "Gorilla Arm" made me chuckle a bit. :)
They should have tried Gorilla Glue instead!
Sorry M$ - you bet wrong on W8 and "touchy" on the screen....
Works for tablets and phones, but until the interface with a screen (if it continues to evolve as a 'screen')
is improved, we'll still need keyboards and mice.
I've not seen anyone yet, move about on a "touch" interface as anyone with a handy kbd and mouse yet!
and in the business/IT/development/designer world - I dare you to try and pry these from the hands of folks
that require them to make their magic.
Too bad you didn't focus on the OS 1st - but instead, you hurried in at the last second to the "touch" world
you're so far behind in already.
applies to males. the right arm uses the mouse to access the favored site and then the left arm goes into action.
I had to buy a stylus in order to use the keypad on my iPhone (which renders it nothing more a modern version of my old Palm). Does this mean I need to buy a ten foot pole before I can touch Win8? My monitors are usually that far away. There is a reason I like a wireless keyboard and mouse. I don't need a ten foot pole.
The Gorilla Arm assumption may be correct, for now, but will it still be an issue when move to Gesture Control? (http://www.engadget.com/2012/11/14/elliptic-labs-develops-touchless-gesture-control-for-windows-8/)
Maybe we'll all have gorilla ARMS!
For the average desktop computer user, a touch screen is an annoyance. Having to reach up
and touch this or poke that when the same can be done by moving a mouse a couple inches
is ludicrous. Save the touch screens for where they belong - kiosks, restaurants, menu-driven
applications.
Plus...why would I want anyone's fingers on my monitor? It's hard enough to keep people
from touching it when they're pointing at something, and add a touch-sensitive surface, and
you're just asking for trouble.
Enough of the touchy-feely computing already.
What is wrong isn't putting touch on a desktop, it's putting touch on a desktop and then configuring it as if it were meant to be controlled by keyboard and mouse. If you want a touch PC, you need to put the screen flat on the desk, tilted up towards you. THAT is the future of touch computing. Making you gigantic monitor touch enabled is technology for technology sake, without enough thought put into how it should be used.
Future touch computers should look like a block of cheese on its side.
or else!
Gorilla arm smearing banana residue all over touchscreen...
Orwell: "In a Time of Universal Deceit, telling the Truth is a Revolutionary Act"
I don't find it that bad. In fact, one you switch to desktop mode it is basically like any other windows version. And I actually like the new "start menu".
And one of the think I really like is that they push something that actually new to the public and not a ripoff of Apple's stuff. And I sincerely think that they are holding something good here.
Like everything new, it is perfectible. And I think that Microsoft (and their competitors too) will closely monitor how users will react once they get familiar with the UI so that can move in the right direction.
As for the "gorilla arm" syndrome I think it is obivous for everyone at Microsoft that people wont spend 8 hours a day tapping their laptop screen without interruption. The touchscreen is just another input device, like the keyboard and the mouse. Users and UI designers will learn about whatever device is the best for a given task. Afterall people have no problem using both keyboard and mouse.
And in case you ask : No, I am no Microsoft shill, I mostly use linux, windows 7 and android. I just decided to try windows 8 a bit and it didn't turn as bad as people make it.
MS is betting big on NUI input - not just touch. There's a HUGE difference. The Kinect can easily be used for NUI input. As can many other technologies that don't require actually touching anything - hence gorilla arms are just a small piece of the interaction picture. Eye-tracking interfaces can even provide NUI output that could operate W8 without changing anything on the Windows side.
I don't know how many years on this Earth I got left. I'm going to get real weird with it. - Frank Reynolds
Until we turn the monitor 90 degrees backwards and slide it toward us, and sink it into the table. Or would that cause an epidemic of Goon Necking? I can only assume that name would work, with the naming system already in place.
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The rumor is that M$ will attempt to release a new OS every year from here on out. The other direction M$ is going to take is to put your applications into the cloud. Cloud = very bad. If Root Certificate Authorities can get hacked so will "the cloud". You also have an issue of know exactly where your data resides. "We put your data into an off shore data center due to cost here in the U.S." A bad scenario could be that they outsourced to Egypt, and well Egypt decided to turn off INTERNET access for an undetermined amount of time. Then there are backups that they will be taking of your data. Is it secure? Gorilla arms at the PC could be cured by putting the monitor in your desk so that you touch the desk vs. where the monitor is now. They just need to make it water/coffee proof. M$ still uses old code and that's their problem. Build it from the ground up and think it through would be a better approach, but not one I think they will take, they haven't thought their latest OS through. Server 2012....Uh so all the GUI items I've been using for the last decade are hidden now? Thank you, I'll just switch to a different OS then if I have to learn your non standard CLI or power shell which doesn't have a standard between 2007 and 2010. Change for the sake of change doesn't really translate to sales. Change with great and needed functionality is probably more on target.
The article is right on, but Microsoft didn't do anything wrong here. They didn't make touching the screen a necessary or preferred way of dealing with the operating system, they didn't make it necessary for programs. They just upgraded OS support for touch. And what's wrong with that? Sure for most applications it's not necessary, but maybe 1% of programs can use it and for these programs it's a good thing, too. It also lets PCs run tablet apps if they want to, without clunky finger - mouse converters.
Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
Without the Chair throwing enabled, touch screens such as Win 8 are an Epic Fail.
If you can't shout at someone and throw your Win 8 tablet at the wall, you quickly run out of chairs.
Right, Monkey Boy Ballmer?
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
Provided this isn't vaporware:
https://leapmotion.com/
Something like that would probably be a better option for touch desktops.
Some knowledgeable and sensible guy? I dislike very much that the interface I was programming when my other laptop was stolen became Win 8 on tablets. AGAIN. So going so far as to want everyone to KEYBOARD on a FLAT SCREEN TOO, even on PCs, is TOO MUCH. And I was precisely yesterday taking my notes to make a more efficient ANYTHING but Windows, for LAPTOPS... djb
The problem is 'the tingling ache that [comes] from extending my right arm to manipulate that screen for hours, an affliction that has earned the nickname of gorilla arm.
Disclosure: I don't use W8 or any other touch interface on either laptop or desktop, only on my smartphone and tablet. I saw this technology being sold on either QVC or HSN; I don't remember which, but you can likely see it this week at CES in Las Vegas.
Gorilla arms need not be the problem. All we need is hardware with a 3" to 5" multi-touch touchpad and agreement on what to use on screen to represent finger position. It won't be easy at first to know where to touch the pad to match the screen, but it won't be long before our brains figure this out and then we'll be productive again.
Remember the first time you used a mouse? It's not much different, and we learned the mouse.
Leapmotion?
We are living in an iPad/iPhone/Android world now. I often caught myself trying to drag my fingers on the laptop screen to scroll. Now that I have one with a touch screen, it seems natural. On an iPad, it is easier to type a lot of text with a keyboard, so how is that different from a laptop with a touch screen? I'd rather have the laptop, because the screen is firmly attached, and doesn't need juggling.
Now I hear about this Gorilla Arm thing. It seems psychological to me. It's like expecting an automobile to have horse saddles to sit on, instead of seats. They invent this term to dis touchscreens, why don't we invent a term to dis onscreen keyboards? Gorilla Keys? The touchscreen laptop seems like the best of both worlds. Make it as portable as an iPad (Lenovo IdeaPad and ThinkPad), and we're further down the road. Fold back the keyboard on one of those, and you have an iPad.
Why didn't we get Gorilla Arm with iPads? Because Apple didn't tell us to.
BTW, I'm noticing that none of Apple's laptops have touchscreens, so maybe that's where this resurrection of "Gorilla Arm" is coming from. It's Marketing covering fire to give Apple time to catch up.
I'm not making excuses for Microsoft. I just disagree with the Gorilla Arm psychosis. It's a thing of the past. Past Marketing.