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Intercontinental Mind-Meld Unites Two Rats
ananyo writes "The brains of two rats on different continents have been made to act in tandem. When the first, in Brazil, uses its whiskers to choose between two stimuli, an implant records its brain activity and signals to a similar device in the brain of a rat in the United States. The U.S. rat then usually makes the same choice on the same task. Miguel Nicolelis, a neuroscientist at Duke University in Durham, North Carolina, says that this system allows one rat to use the senses of another, incorporating information from its far-away partner into its own representation of the world. 'It's not telepathy. It's not the Borg,' he says. 'But we created a new central nervous system made of two brains.' Nicolelis says that the work, published today, is the first step towards constructing an organic computer that uses networks of linked animal brains to solve tasks. But other scientists who work on neural implants are skeptical."
...could go wrong?
". But other scientists who work on neural implants are skeptical.""
as they should be,. It's a big deal, as such it will require good data and be repeatable.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Oh c'mon Pinky, you already know, you DMA'd it from me 250nS ago.
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
Oh, yes.
Or a basket case?
what could go wrong?
I move, You move. Just like that?
If the goal is to use this technology to mend broken connections in diseased or damaged brains, wouldn't it make more sense to test a similarly damaged rat brain rather than attempt to repeat the same results with four mice? Note: The question is related to the original article more so than the submission on /.
Common Sense (+1)
... refuse to issue the standard obligatory decades old Simpson's joke that typically accompanies a story like this one.
Now we can use distributed methods to apply the Ludovico technique.
Don't worry: this will only be used for the Greater Good.
North America and South America are different continents...
Common Sense (+1)
Sounds just like Dead Stop.
I notice they do not include a picture of the wireheaded rats (only an artists impression). Probably wise. While I for one believe that the advancement of science to be the greatest height to which a rat could aspire, I have a feeling that others (and possibly the rats) do not feel the same way.
I am not interested in articles about life extension advancements.
Hemisphere? Yes. Continent? No.
Surely you've heard of North America and South America, right? Yes, they're connected by land, but so are Europe, Asia and Africa... they're still separate continents.
And I thought Brazil and the United States belonged to the same continent...
Then you thought wrong. Brazil belongs to the continent South America, the United States belong to the continent North America.
Actually, sounds almost exactly like what I'd think was the beginnings of the Borg.
No, it's a new interface for rodents, allowing the moving of information from one location to another electronically.
It's the new Ratmouse.
I for one welcome our new intercontinental rat overlords.
Captcha: transmit
Imagine a Wolf cluster of these.
This idea has some interesting real-world applications
1. Sex
???
???
4. Profit
And I thought Brazil and the United States belonged to the same continent...
Yea, that can happen when you sleep through geography.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
The United States belong to the Northern Hemisphere, Brazil to the Southern Hemisphere. So they are not on the same hemisphere.
Wow. We're making Cranium Rats? Anyone that has played Planescape Torment knows thats a bad idea.
One of the most unusual concepts of an alien life form I've seen are the Tines in Vinge's novel A Fire upon the Deep , dog or giant rat-like animals that are not individually conscious, but when together in packs form a single sentient organism. In the case of Vinge's novel, neural communication between the individual members of the pack was carried out via ultrasound, not electricity like here, but I wouldn't have imagined that scientists would pursue the same idea at some point.
What is the maximum number of mice that can be connected in this way?
Imagine a Beowulf cluster of them!
Interesting that the hyperintelligent pan-dimensional beings that we call mice would direct us to use their traditional enemies, rats, as preliminary test subjects for the future wiring of all of humanity into one hyper-super-duper-parallel-mind-games-puper-computer to come up with the question much sooner than we would otherwise.
It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
He was referring to the Western Hemisphere.
Not sure why this type of experiments is making into the news now. Similar and more advanced experiments where conducted 20 years ago already with far more exciting results. Is science spinning in a mud never going to stop?
Was the artist's impression completely necessary? What I take from that, the rats engaged in some Hollywood, overly cgi vulcan mind meld all the while inside of Tron.
Clearly we need an RFC for the Brain-To-Brain-Interface Protocol.
Hopefully it'll be built on top of SSL. I don't want someone hacking into my rats.
Koans and fables for the software engineer
Ah, but this is not a question of geography, but rather one of politics...
God bless the United Earth of America!
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
See the science fiction novel, _Lady El_ by Jim Starlin and Dana Graziunas.
Sphinx of black quartz, judge my vow.
Maybe NOW we can finally understand what the female brain is Really thinking....
How'd you like a set of electrodes in your brain, in the name of experimental science?
Someone let this out a month and a day too early.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
Next time I'm traversing the Warrens, looking for the Decanter of Endless Water, I'll remember that this is how that bullshit started.
Researcher: press that lever, you rat!
Rat: I realize that command does have its fascination, even under circumstances such as these, but I neither enjoy it nor am I frightened of it. It simply exists, and I will do whatever logically needs to be done.
It's actually really complicated, some people actually learn in school that North and South America are a single continent. And Wikipedia doesn't mention this, but in Central America, some people consider Central America to be a separate continent as well.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Why you should be skeptical:
1. Slapping implants that record...something, and then slapping implants that...play back something that stimulate neurons in the exact same way as they were firing when recorded is a hell of an accomplisment.
This alone is sci-fi level stuff.
2. It's doubtful such activity, on the level of a neuron applies to a blanket region as if projecting on a screen. You wouldn't be "projecting" the correct micro-piece on the correct destination neuron.
3. Even with sufficiently fine neuronal alignment, it's doubtful neural networks at the individual neuron level are identically positioned in rats any more than skin cells are.
4. Even if neural network topology on the individual neuron level are identical between rats, again they wouldn't line up any more than eyes do for humans needing glasses.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
I hate to break it to the researchers, but getting a pack of rats to operate under the same collective consciousness has been done before
See my journal for slashdot ID's by year. Mine created in 2005. http://slashdot.org/journal/289875/slashdot-ids-by-year
...since cats do, in fact, have pointy ears. I would have thought that that would be a major help here.
Also, as a cat lover, I vehemently object to giving mice any special training or equipment that might topple the fragile balance of power between mice and cats. I'm going to file a protest to the United Species Security Council!
Ezekiel 23:20
Oh great, we've just taken the first step into creating Cranium Rats. Bring enough of those together and there'll be talk about overthrowing the bonds human opression.
So, whose politics shaped the tectonic plates?
implementation of game movie.
me: this is scary: http://science.slashdot.org/story/13/02/28/1615207/intercontinental-mind-meld-unites-two-rats Sent at 1:14 PM on Thursday
Poet: scarey
i think it is brilliant
me: its good research, but the implications are scary
Poet: thinking of healing applications for people with brain injury
or spinal cord injury
oh yeah
me: being able to map/read sections of the brain for brain injury and to control prosthetices is great
Poet: let the army use it create sleeper assasins all over the workd
yet the army could
me: but could you imagine the popup adverts coming through your nural implant telling you to go buy Tide detergent.. you dont know why you bought it, you just
did Poet: shit
that is scary
me: actually you do know why you bought it.. you wanted it.. but why did you want it, and why did it feel so good to buy it.. like a hit of opium?
jeez I am cynical
Silence is a state of mime.
Continents are land-masses, not political divisions.
Gotta love slashdot and its tradition of snarky, but ignorant, posts.
Tie a bunch of animal brains together around the world? Have it make decisions? Nope, no way...
I for one welcome our ninja-trained helicopter-piloting rat underlords.
Singularity: a belief in the "God" idea with the "demiurge" relation inverted.
Give us your cheese of be assimilated!
(If at first you don't succeed, do it different next time!)
The Atlanteans...and you see how well that worked out for them.
Okay, so how about this for a better headline: "Two-headed mutant killer cyber-rats plotting world domination: they share a mind, but may-or-may-not-be-on-different-continents-but-are-at-least-4000-miles-apart. Nothing to contest in that statement now. All happy?
the first step towards constructing an organic computer that uses networks of linked animal brains to solve tasks
Are you looking at the same link I am? There's a video at the bottom of the article showing them in all their wired up glory. http://www.nature.com/news/intercontinental-mind-meld-unites-two-rats-1.12522
Some people die at 25 and aren't buried until 75. -Benjamin Franklin
Citation needed.
The boundaries that make up continents are to a degree arbitrary and depend upon the person making the statement. There's no real justification for Europe being a continent; Europe and a large part of Asia are on one tectonic plate, while the easternmost part of Asia is on the same plate as North America. And the Indian subcontinent is on yet another plate.
So, it's ultimately local custom that determines the number of continents. I've seen Europeans refer to the Americas as one continent. For example, the Olympic rings were at one time intended to represent five continents.
(The quote's copied from Wikipedia, so in five minutes it's entirely possible that De Coubertin would have said the flag represents the population of elephants tripling within six months.)
Even as a question of geography, it's still two separate continents. North and South America are each on their own continental plate.
"Are you thinking what I'm thinking, Pinky?"
"Actually, yes, Brain; for once, I am. *narf* *poit*"
And I thought Brazil and the United States belonged to the same continent...
Yea, that can happen when you sleep through geography.
Or take Geography at a U.S. school.
. .
He was referring to the Western Hemisphere.
That is not well-defined. North and south is.
So scientists are wiring together rodent brains to create a supercomputer? Maybe my neighbor isn't schizophrenic after all.
I work in this field, and the work here is not nearly as revolutionary as made out.
We have known for about a decade that a brain can learn to integrate arbitrary patterns of electrical stimuli. This work was done by many groups including the group that performed the current study, so they are clearly aware of that work. Since the placement of recording electrodes and the stimulating electrodes in these experiments are essentially random at a cellular level, there is no reason to treat the recorded signal differently from any signal derived from task related timing.
Using two animals and the internet is really just a sensationalist re-hash of what has already been well described. Sure it is an engineering achievement, but the claim that there is a 'single nervous system' is wildly overstated. The fact that this study is making such waves is really frustrating to may of us who are working on similar topics because it seems to be rewarding sensationalism rather than progress.
My whiskers with your whiskers...my cheese with your cheese...
PAIIIIIIIIIIN!!!!!!!
Today, the depth, profundity, expressive power, and content of a human thought has some strict biologically-imposed limits. There are only so many neurons available to participate in it.
Once humans can link up using tech like this, they will be able to participate in thoughts far greater than any that have ever been thunk before (by any and every measurable criteria). No single human will grasp the thought in its totality, but the higher-order "metamind" that is created by the network of humans will grasp the thought, and be able to act on it.
It will be a very interesting day indeed.
Imagine a Beowulf Cluster of these!
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
" the work, published today, is the first step towards constructing an organic computer that uses networks of linked animal brains to solve tasks." How is that not a horrificially unethical case of animal cruelty? The sad thing is, no-one else on Slashdot seems to give a crap about anything other than humans (or themselves?).
Doesn't this make anyone else a little uneasy? It doesn't sound terribly ethical to me...
Depends where you go to school. In Mexico 6 continents. They ignore Antartica sometimes they will say 5 Then I moved to finland, and they count 6. From there we went to czech republic also 6 continents. Then highschool 10th grade in USA they counted 7 continents. I also noticed that refering to a USAian as american is mostly an anglophone thing. While traveling through Europe I could say I am an Amererican, and they knew I was not referring to USA. And it probably was because I do not have a north american english accent or I could speak the local language. And canadians they're are americans they just hate getting confused with their southern neighbour. Even if you say they're From North America they still end up being americans from the north. I took some english classes, studied 1 year in USA and here is how I interpret the name United States of America with my limited english. the key is in the word "OF" a proposition I believe. It says the These united states belong to america. It does not say They are America. Is like saying "the united union of kentucky", "the sons of Carl", "the many cars of Mike" For the name to actually mean the name of the country is America it would have to say it something like this. United American States. Now this would imply they are american and not just belong to. Funny thing is 99% of USAians don't know where the name come from. When you ask they usually end up saying it means freedom or something like that.
The US and Brazil are in the same Continent: America
To be permanently wired to a porn-star.
'It's not telepathy. It's not the Borg,' he says
No, it's Vulcan.
I've seen Europeans refer to the Americas as one continent
I've seen Americans claim that the sun rotates around the earth. Come to think of it, I've seen Europeans claim the same.
So, logically, that means that.. Umm..
Wait, where am I?
Anyway, I think you'll find very few reasonable people that see any merit in referring to South and North America as a single continent. Unless they're trying to be dicks.
I'm the red ranger, but when we come together we form voltron FUCING POWER RANGERS MAN _ A SENTIENT BEING
unusual sci fi shit there..
So are their minds more or less connected than their continents?
"
Yep!
The Olympic flag has five rings representing the "five inhabited continents of the world". Of the 7 generally accepted continents, Antarctica can safely be excluded. Did the flag designer combine North and South America into just America, or were Europe and Asia combined into Eurasia?
Please don't be fooled by this nonsense. Nicolelis used to be a good scientist, but about 10 years ago he realized he could stage high impact dramatics instead of advancing the field, awe the media, and continue to rake in grant money. I challenge someone to tell me how this study advanced the field.
We know rats brains respond to cues. We know know how to record that.
We know the cortex is plastic enough to learn from novel external stimuli (a shock). To be fair, Nicolelis did do grounbreaking research, once upon a time.
He DID NOT WIRE TWO BRAINS TOGETHER. He modified a very simplified recording from one brain, and he modified it to the extent that he was basically playing back a simple shock to another brain. The magic is that the cortex is plastic enough to use this simple shock to influence behavior, given enough trials. Which had also been shown many times before (to be fair, Nicolelis did do some of this early work)
The crux though, as a neuroscientist this statement makes me sick: 'But we created a new central nervous system made of two brains.' Nicolelis says
Such BS. Inexcusable from a scientist.
Of course it doesn't help my opinion of him that he treated the faculty so poorly at the institute he founded in Natal that they all left, forming a new institute without him.
I guess the only ones to really blame are the popsci writers who don't have a clue, or who just don't give a damn.
Now for the all important questions: If one rat hears Metallica while linked to the other rat, what entities will the RIAA sue? Can a DRM take down notice shut down the experiment? And how does the six-strike policy work in such a situation?
Plus, they are no longer conjoined; they are divided by the Panama Canal.
Downmodding is the refuge of the weak. Don't downmod, make a better argument!
Want a job giving your brain for the next generation of computing 8 hours a day?
That reminds me of a South Park episode.
"Everyone's in favor of saving Hitler's brain. But when you put it in the body of a great white shark--Ooooh! Suddenly you've gone too far!" --Professor Farnsworth
e-Vel!
Anything like this? (IBDB).
Sounds like a bumper sticker to me.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
When rat one moved his left foot, the right brain of rat two was shocked, and ... moved his left foot.
God bless the United Earth of America!
Shhh... We haven't told those people at the UN building yet.
It's called TV commercials.
It's exactly as well defined (by the great circle joining Greenwich to the International Date Line). It's just that nobody wants to use it that way.
Science is all about firing a drunk pig out of a cannon just to see what happens.
The Northern and Southern Hemisphere are defined by the physical characteristics of the planet (namely its rotation). There's nothing physically special about the Greenwich meridian or the International Date Line, they are just set by convention.
Or said differently, there's a Northern and a Southern Hemisphere because there's a North Pole and a South Pole. There's no West Pole, nor an East Pole.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
North and south are also defined by convention. Because we decided that that one was north, that became the rule for every other object in the universe.
(Actually we have two norths. Depending on which convention you use.)
Science is all about firing a drunk pig out of a cannon just to see what happens.
But other scientists who work on neural implants are skeptical^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H beside themselves with envy.
FTFTheSummary, apparently...
The convention is which one we call "North" and which one we call "South", but those are mere names anyways. The hemispheres as such are uniquely defined by the rotation of the earth. That is, there are two poles, and two hemispheres which reach from the corresponding pole to the equator. And thanks to the weak interaction (more exactly, its parity violation) you can even distinguish from the rotation which hemisphere is which using nothing but fundamental physical laws.
The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
Prepared to be gang-banged!
There are plenty enough Poles to the east here. Thoug that may be related to the fact that I live to the west of Poland.
I've seen Americans claim that the sun rotates around the earth.
Everything is relative, and I am at the center of it all.
Although, I would have said "The sun 'revolves' around the earth." But that is just me.
"For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice" -- God
While traveling through Europe I could say I am an Amererican, and they knew I was not referring to USA.
I bet.
"For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice" -- God
"Into the mud, scum queen!"
Well, just this week: grey goo, cranium rats. Take your pick. It looks like scientists really work on an end of the world scenario :D
Ok I can only vouch for Germany, France, the UK, Spain and Italy, but if you said "I am American" 95% of the time it is assumed you are US-American. (Not USAian! Nobody uses that term.) This is because a Brazilian will say he is from Brazil and a Canadian will say he is from Canada and a Mexican will say he is from Mexico. Only the US-Americans will say he is from America. The again there are pedants like you that will understand what he means and argue with him about semantics.
But the thing is that when you are asked from where you are from, they want a country not a continent. It is about as useful to answer it with you are from earth. Ask any European where he comes from and you will get, a country not a continent. (Don't get me started with the EU.)
Oh and before I get angry replies from Australians; semantics... I con't care what continent you come from, I care about the country you come from, to bad they have the same name.