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Florida Sinkhole Highlights State's Geologic Instability
An anonymous reader writes "Last Thursday night, a sinkhole took the life of a man (TV news video, with ad) while he slept in his home in Seffner FL, near Tampa. While human fatalies are rare, sinkholes are so common in Florida that the insurance industry successfully lobbied the state lawmakers to pass legislation in 2011 making it more difficult for homeowners to claim sinkhole damages. The bedrock in Florida is limestone, a weakly soluble mineral formed from calcified deposits of sea creatures tens of millions of years ago. Above the limestone is a clay layer called the Hawthorn Formation which shields the limestone from ground water; and above the clay is sand. However, the protective clay layer is thin or nonexistent in some areas of Florida, particularly in the middle part of the state near the Gulf coast, where caves and sinkholes are common. Geologists say that human activity, particularly construction and irrigation, can trigger sinkholes by destabilizing the landscape above caverns by drawing down water tables and massing structures above them."
it was a great idea to start building homes on swamp land?
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
qq
Smart of the insurance industry to make themselves useless. Now, if they never fork out, why should I have an insurance?
The state's Department of Environmental Protection has a nice collection of sinkhole resources, including a database of incidents, and a poster with a map.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
What's the tech angle to this story? It's a sinkhole. Ground cover collapse is not a Slashdot story.
Oh, I don't know.. Geology? Engineering? Perhaps involving technology to detect and prevent these things?
Something like this perhaps?
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
Let's pump massive amounts of water out of the aquafilter. What could possibility go wrong? (Living in West Central Florida on the edge of a well field).
Perhaps someone can come up with some seismic sensing technology that can detect underground voids. Similar to what the oil and gas people use, but optimized for shallower depths.
Communities could do a periodic survey in populated areas and give property owners some advanced notice to evacuate their property. The down side is that existing property owners won't want a pre-sale seismic survey to become common practice.
Have gnu, will travel.
The part about the insurance companies really pisses me off. First of all, it's REQUIRED that we insure almost EVERYTHING now...
You had me until this point. But then you had to say...
and then the greedy jewish fucks actually get legislation passed...
Proving that you are a moron who should not have children.
Your post history shows that you are a Troll Account anyway, and your trolls indicate that you are under 20.
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
Some tech input will show up regardless of what's in TFS/A. General science articles are always welcome for me at any rate. Regarding this topic, here's a good photo gallery: Notable sinkholes from around the globe.
Especially when you look at the loss of life and property caused by other natural phenomenon. If sinkholes in Florida are such a problem that we question the rationality of building homes there, then surely no one should live in Southern California where loss of life and property are several orders of magnitude higher than that caused by Florida sinkholes due to wild fires and earthquakes.
Let's hope the problem doesn't get worse elsewhere
...was in Florida?
Let's hope the problem doesn't get worse or spread elsewhere
Perhaps if you could identify where this was happening, it could be remediated by pumping in a slurry containing solids that would lock in place and resist leaching like coal ash and some kinds of sand?
Any civil engineers care to comment on that?
Dog is my co-pilot.
"the insurance industry successfully lobbied the state lawmakers to pass legislation in 2011 making it more difficult for homeowners to claim sinkhole damages"
Are you trying to say the insurance industry owners shouldn't be allowed to trick uneducated and become billionaires because of that? If so, say it clearer so the politicians can understand you. Some politicians are pretty thick polo players.
Perhaps involving technology to detect and prevent these things?
Prevent? With technology?
This is just a shit happens thing. Aside from sinking pillars down to bedrock to support your house (Yeah, a $1,000,000 2 bedroom Bungalow), there's really nothing that can be done technologically to prevent this or even mitigate the damage.
And in other places folks have to deal with tornadoes, hurricanes, earth quakes, lions, tigers and bears.
Is this a politically correct insult towards someone who behaves like an asshat?
There is no right to feel safe thru security vaudeville at the expense of everyone's freedom, privacy and tax money.
This is just a shit happens thing.
No, it isn't
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
Not the first time that holes in Florida being loosely covered up, just search Slashdot for "hanging chads".
Your defenses are quite right as it is something that needs to be studied if we are ever to colonize another planet, especially if we have to terraform it first. Terraforming the inside of a satellite as well. Stable and clean water tables will be an important of that.
Everybody's a fucking know-it-all around here. You know NOTHING about the structure or the hole, yet you shoot your fool mouth off about it. Brilliant.
Perhaps if you could identify where this was happening, it could be remediated by pumping in a slurry containing solids that would lock in place and resist leaching like coal ash and some kinds of sand?
It'd hit the water table. Everything is connected down there.
There was an article years ago about divers working for the USGS (IIRC) who would go down into springs and literally swim under the ground and pop out in another town or even the ocean.
Who knows what the environmental damage that could cause - don't forget, most of Florida's economy is tourism.
Oh thank goodness they passed that law making it illegal for people swallowed up in their homes by sinkholes created by tapping out all the underground water!
My stock portfolio might have been affected by the actions of the companies I invest in and that's as Un-American as Islam.
I feel for the friends and family of the poor guy, and wish them the best, and I'm sure it's an impractical suggestion, and in no way is it likely to happen, but In my opinion modern humans have no business living on what is essentially a giant sand bar that supports a delicate (and slowly dying) ecosystem. Though I'm admittedly biased. I simply don't like the place. The weather is almost unlivable. It's cold in the winter and unbearably hot and humid all summer. Culturally, it's not my cup of tea either.
Draining the everglades (which is/was a beautiful and terrifying place) was one of the worst ideas ever. The CoE does some great things, but that was not one of them.
Granted Cape Cod and the islands in my home state aren't much better (ecologically speaking).
Shit happens. Those that don't do anything deserve their lot in filth. Others collect it for sanitary reasons. Still others notice that the big piles of crap start to heat up. The eventually figure out about composting and manure being excellent fertilizers. Here is a blog post that actually looks at regional zones and architecture and see what fits and makes sense where. http://urbanlabglobalcities.blogspot.ru/2012/05/from-hard-to-soft-how-new-approach-on.html
Beware of those who profit off the docile and persecute the unbelievers.
Florida is former seabed, that, well, unlike many other regions, is a few feet at any given time, from becoming seabed again.
It's eroding away relatively quickly, and as we recover from the last ice age, it will soon be seabed again in short order. There are theories that florida is up where it's at only because of isostatic stress from the glaciers that were up north, and as the land in the northern part of the north american craton starts rebounding, florida may start sinking.
Either way, I would never want to live there. People laugh about california falling into the sea, florida is actually the state that likely will, and maybe even start within our lifetimes.
You do realize why the Jewish fucks (you should capitalize Jew, even when calling then dirty Jews) are all schiester bankers and jewelers, right? For many years, and in many places, they were banned from owning land or otherwise fully participating in the economy. When you are a Jew living in an Islamic area, and you can't invest in many things (like land), and Musilms are banned from being bankers, but not banned from using them, then naturally, you'll start a bank. You have cash and there's a need others can't, by law, meet. Same with jewels. If you have piles of spare money and are banned by law from investing in a number of things, jewels are an easy way to concentrate wealth in something that is less volatile than tulip bulbs.
The laws pushed a highly persecuted people into specific industries historically, and today we make fun of them for what we forced them to do previously.
Learn to love Alaska
Most houses in Florida, particularly outside of the panhandle, are just concrete slabs poured on level ground. There's a bit of a trench to anchor it in, but no foundation like you're thinking of. Hardly anyone has a basement. Maybe if they live on the side of a hill, one story will be dug into the hill on one side.
This is because the ground usually doesn't freeze, it's cheaper, easier, and faster. Most of the state was developed after the war and after home air conditioners became affordable. So crappy tract housing had become the norm.
I grew up in a house like that -- it had been previously owned by the builder, who had a concrete business. Therefore there was a huge concrete patio, big driveway, and some sort of slab in the middle of the yard, which we never really figured out the purpose of. And on the inside, the floor consists of some carpet on a carpet pad on the slab. Or tile on the slab. Or wood flooring on plywood on the slab.
Areas that get a lot of water from hurricanes, however, may have houses built on columns -- you park the car below and the house starts a story above the ground.
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
Something like this perhaps?
. . . I was thinking /dev/null . . . how an improper implementation could cause OS instability . . .
Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
It is brutally intolerably - and sometimes fatally - hot for at least 3 months of the year. It gets hit by hurricanes quite nearly every year. Alligators, Crocodiles, and giant Asian Pythons attack and eat everything in sight. Nobody can afford to own property and landlords are crooked. And now the land itself is caving in .
Remind me why people choose to live there?
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
Offtopic, moronic, not funny. Idiotic. You're a 19 year old freshman, yes?
I can't wait for the christian right to start using sinkholes as the basis for an anti gay crusade - "Sink'oles is gods's punishmint fer teh gayz!!!"
When I lived in Miami we used to say that California might slide into the Pacific Ocean but Florida would disappear into it's own asshole.
Of course we've known about the state's emotional and mental instability forever. Still the only state with its own Fark tag!
https://twitter.com/_FloridaMan
http://www.fark.com/topic/florida/
Insurance companies might have to pay some money out, so they buy the state legislature to write laws allowing them to screw the insurance purchaser.
How long will insurance companies keep getting their way? They did the same with health care. If someone is sick they don't want to insure them because they might have to actually pay out some money. The insurance industry is more evil than cell phone and cable TV companies combined.
We are stupid and deserve the government we elect. The human race is doomed to extinction before we figure out how to get off this rock.
It's pretty sad that calling a troll out for making offensive Jew jokes on Slashdot get's modded "flaimbait".
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
Limestone is technology!
"Perhaps involving technology to detect and prevent these things?"
Never happen when money is on the line. I remember, back in Pennsylvania, the creekbeds always had a good stretch of uninhabited land around them (usually treated an unofficial parkspace).
One year someone bought up some of that land and built a bunch of brand new houses right up against the creek... ...and people (presumably from out of state) bought them. Then the next big rains came, and the creeks flooded, and the houses were all ruined.
I blame the exploitative bastards who shoved those homes in where 250+ years of experience said no homes should be.
Jews lent money to the Nazis, even after the gas chambers were public knowledge. Tells you a lot about that "religious" doesn't it. Don't believe me? Spend a massive 10 minutes looking into the Roschilds and their meteoric rise in wealth.
I grew up in a house like that -- it had been previously owned by the builder, who had a concrete business. Therefore there was a huge concrete patio, big driveway, and some sort of slab in the middle of the yard, which we never really figured out the purpose of.
Meant for a shed perhaps? Or maybe a hot tub...oh wait, Florida, I mean Cooling Tub.
Came here for the obligatory goatse.
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
Woof!
lions, tigers and bears.
Oh my!
soylentnews.org Go there to enjoy the people!
Given the current political bent of the average Slashdotter today, I suppose the above post will be modded "insightful".
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
So you're saying we don't need Bugs Bunny's help at all?
In Soviet Russia, dot slashes YOU!
Y'know, you can claim to be any religion you like, but just claiming something doesn't automatically make it true. Wolves in sheep's clothing, etc.
There was a large detached garage, so not a shed. And there was a hot tub on the patio adjacent to the house; the pad was in the middle of a lawn behind the patio, about 20-30 feet from anything.
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
I plan to die quickly (and cheaply) at an old age.
Best way to do this is to stay away from doctors... kind of hard since I am a doctor but I don't, as a rule, give myself advice.
I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
Wait, what? No, no empty space here. Not any. You want Texas. It's not being used for much useful other than producing oil, cattle and ignorance (not quite certain which is the state's leading export, actually.) Get some real schools in there, teach science instead of superstition, invite immigrants to help out... you'd have an actual useful state before you knew it.
But not Montana. Please. Besides. I really don't think you'd like our -40 temps in the winter. Texas, on the other hand... perfect.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
They use a lot of really cool tech inspecting sinkholes and inspecting land before constructions projects. I got to go with my uncle's boyfriend last time I was in Florida to see what their work was like, never even knew we had that kind of stuff available.
I've also heard that the people who lent money to the Nazis were men too. Tells you a lot about the gender, which surely must still be relevant to all men in the 1940s and today.
It's all caused by global warming, donch ya know?
Nah, in my experience doctors are the only people who can manage to keep away from doctors. (I'm one too.)
Fire pit perhaps?
... if the traffic and bath salts don't kill you, the sinkholes will. Please do not consider visiting or moving here. If you're already here, save yourself by heading north, preferably taking at least two vehicles with you. I hear California is wonderful. Tell all your friends. Thank you.
That's been the best guess, but it's no pit; just a slab on the ground. And no scorch marks or other indications that it was ever used for that as I recall.
I just think of it as the mystery square.
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
... this story makes me want to stay up late pouring a couple extra foundations for my house. I mean seriously: "Earth swallows man while he sleeps"?!?!? FUCK!
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
If you look at the house on Google Maps (I'm sure everyone here can find the address on news sites just as easily as I can), you'll find a long-ish pond running behind it and other homes, parallel to the street. That pond looks like a classic former sinkhole, and seems to form a whole non-development area, so my guess is that the developers knew about the issues when they built there. Right between the house and next door on the street is a storm water drain, with an outlet clearly visible over the pond (try 45 deg view). I'll wager dollars to donuts that they find that a problem in that drain is the source of the sinkhole. I see lawsuits.
I'd make a "stand yor ground" joke, but it's too soon.
Yes, technologies could be invented to make future sinkholes detectable but developers would come up with a law which would prevent testing for their presence. You see, it goes like this. A developer gets some land (swampland) which he will develop and sell at a huge profit. Then someone comes along before he develops said land and finds that a sinkhole makes the land worthless. We can't have that situation.
Answer, a law banning testing for sinkholes!
Underground water management?
Above ground water management for mapped out sensitive areas?
Dimwit.
Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
Fallout shelter. He just realized that pouring the ceiling first wouldn't lead anywhere and abandoned the project :P
Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
I have lived in Florida for almost 60 years. Sadly the scheme in Florida has always been to encourage people to move to Florida and our water supply is suffering and thus the sink holes. The last thing we need here is a population increase. But the fools will never stop.
By the way the area where sink holes is the greatest concern is not swamp land. Miami and Ft. Lauderdale were built on swamp land by and large and they have no sink holes at all. The problem in south Florida is rising seas and beach erosion. Much of south Florida will probably not be viable for occupation in the near future. The economic consequences are perhaps great enough to destroy the US economy as well as the economy of several other nations. Much of the land is only about three feet above sea level and storms and tropical rains as well as strong surges or tides are already a big problem. The two counties are home to about 4 million people.
Seems God got the wrong Bush
Table-ized A.I.
I live in Florida and have been trying to buy a house here. That 2011 legislation was caused by people claiming cracks caused by normal settling as sink hole damage. If the anonymous submitter had done any checking at all into the law, he would have found that out. So, either the anonymous submitter is either lying or ignorant.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
The earth doesn't get mad about the harm man inflicts.
It gets even.
No basement, because you're likely to hit water within the first 10 feet of digging. That floor collapse sounds a bit dodgy even for Florida (there's supposed to be steel reinforcing that concrete), but I did get to see a lot of modern Florida homebuilding techniques when I was a kid, so it's not a complete surprise.
There have been scientific reports about sinkholes, reversal of water flow in aquifers (i.e. salt water working its way into former fresh sources), damage to the protected swamp areas, etc. in Florida for years now. But the only thing that put a damper on new housing developments was the mortgage securities crash. Just this year, a reasonably intelligent (!!) friend of mine - Steve D. if you happen to read this, sorry for outing you -- decided to buy a retirement spot in Fla. Steve, I'll miss you if you get sinkholed, but I sure won't blame such an event on anything other than a very foolish real estate decision.
https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
I like that, except it was built in the late 80s, when it was fairly obvious that a nuclear war with the USSR was unlikely. Plus I think those were usually built at ground level in that neck of the woods, then covered with dirt to make a mound like a barrow, and there would've been dirt; there's a pool. But I've never seen one in person.
Anyway, it's a square about 3-4 feet on a side; perhaps the blueprints for the house were originally in the wrong unit, a la spinal tap, and the slab was poured before anyone noticed.
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
Geologists say that human activity, particularly construction and irrigation, can trigger sinkholes by destabilizing the landscape above caverns by drawing down water tables and massing structures above them."
Or, you know, possibly it was something that was just going to happen over time and Humans are only concerned with their involvement because of the usual "aggrandizement effect".
Much of our area is limestone, with no clay or anything on top. And it RAINS a lot.
A few big sink holes have appeared on roads, and there are lots of cave systems.. My house doesn't even have foundations - it's built direct on the limestone.. I often wonder if the limestone is just a few feet thick, with a big cavern below.
Still - seems our weasly insurance companies aren't as weasly as yours!
Sig out of date
The biggest sinkhole is in Washington DC, with all the corrupt and greedy CONgressMEN who just threw the American people off that fiscal cliff they were bragging about saving us from. Reduce spending now, pink slips for politicians, and pink coveralls too, like they wear in prison.
The mind conceives, the body achieves, the spirit manifests.
Damn right Florida is unstable. Check out these headlines. A sample:
Florida Man Slapped With Warning After Riding Dying Sperm Whale
Florida Man Traps Ex-Girlfriend's Mother Into A Fold-Out Couch
Police Find Cocaine In Florida Man's Prosthetic Leg
Now we have a perfect place to pump all our salty, chemically-laced fracking waste water! Perfect!
That was an excellent post about sinkholes in Florida. Why continue to build upon this fragile soil? It appears that the real estate lobby is so powerful that they are willing to risk the lives of the people who buy these houses. And, the home buyer does not do the necessary research to insure that the home sits on stable soil. Why does not Florida mandate that a drilling into the ground extend down to 40 feet to see if the limestone is very porous? Surely, the powerful real estate lobby would block this. Perhaps someone will wake up. A man died awake in his bed screaming for help...
Since no one has posted any conspiracy theory stuff on this post yet I thought I would get it started. The underground has secret underground bases and tunnels. This is probably a result of that.
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=155409.0