Alan Kay Says iPad Betrays Xerox PARC Vision

harrymcc writes "Over at TIME.com, we've published David Greelish's interview with Alan Kay, the famously quotable visionary whose Dynabook proposal has provided much of the inspiration for advances in mobile computing for over 40 years now. Kay talks about his work, laments that the computer has failed to live up to its potential as an educational tool, and says that the iPad betrays the vision that he and others created at Xerox PARC and elsewhere in the 1970s."

Comments

Fanboy attack

[cyber-vandal]

in 3...2...1....

Re:Fanboy attack

[falcon5768]

Actually looking at his gripes, and they are so far and away from legitimate that there is a very valid argument to be made that he's full of shit.

The interesting thing about this question is that it is quite clear from the several early papers that it was an ancillary point for the Dynabook to be able to simulate all existing media in an editable/authorable form in a highly portable networked (including wireless) form. The main point was for it to be able to qualitatively extend the notions of “reading, writing, sharing, publishing, etc. of ideas” literacy to include the “computer reading, writing, sharing, publishing of ideas” that is the computer’s special province.

This has been absolutely done by the iPad and other tablets. People love to make the claim you can not create content on the iPad but its been proven time and again for the most part to be false beyond a few exceptions you can create just fine. People code on them, people write blogs or even books on them, people record and perform music on them etc. They are still a Gen 2 device atm though regardless of the marketing speek (or maybe Gen 3).

Isn’t it crystal clear that this last and most important service is quite lacking in today’s computing for the general public? Apple with the iPad and iPhone goes even further and does not allow children to download an Etoy made by another child somewhere in the world. This could not be farther from the original intentions of the entire ARPA-IPTO/PARC community in the ’60s and ’70s.

Even this is disingenuous because Apple doesn't in any way prevent a people from creating a good app uploading it to the store for free and let people download it for free. It shows a blatent misunderstanding of the app store, and reasons behind it. It also shows a 60/70's naïvety toward how nasty our computing world has become toward attacking other users for personal and political gain.

Re:Fanboy attack

[jedidiah]

Your post is total fanboy rubbish.

Tablets are awkward at best for work and the level of control Apple exerts over the platform is artistically stifling as well as being an unnecessary financial burden.

We understand all too well.

Re:Fanboy attack

[h4rr4r]

They don't?
Please show me were I can upload applications for free to the Apple store and without restrictions.

My application is a wireless network monitoring tool, which my understanding is that they are totally banned.

Apple is very successful at turning computers into something their owners do not control.

Re:Fanboy attack

[falcon5768]

The only "fanboi" rubbish here is yours, I record my music and administer my servers in SSH perfectly fine on my iPad, and have done the same on my Android.

Re:Fanboy attack

[click2005]

Tablets are a tool for consumption not production or creativity. They can be used for it in the same way I can stir my coffee with a pen.

Re:Fanboy attack

[Trepidity]

Yes, I think the objection is not that you can't install a text editor on an iPad, but that the ecosystem is mainly aimed at one-way retrieval of content via Apple. As Kay notes, it's not just that you can't get your content into the App Store easily, but by default you can't even install something your friend made who's sitting right next to you— there's no way to install apps from your friend unless either you jailbreak your device, or your friend gets it into the App Store.

Re:Fanboy attack

[geekoid]

"This has been absolutely done by the iPad ..."
not on the iPad. You need a middle man.

Tel my how I can write an app on the iPad, and then share it with whomever I want. How do I just send it to my friend across the table?

"Even this is disingenuous because Apple doesn't in any way prevent a people from creating a good app uploading it to the store for free"
You are missing his point.

"d does not allow children to download an Etoy made by another child somewhere in the world. "
he is correct. It has to go through Apple. I needs to meet Apples arbitrary corporate 'standard'; which includes many subjective things, such as 'we thing there are enough apps of this type'. Plus, creating an app on an iPad has a much higher barrier to entry then other systems.

Re:Fanboy attack

[Anonymous Coward]

so when you say administer your servers, you mean you have one? Because typing on a tablet, especially technical typing such as using non-alphanumeric characters is quite the pain in the ass in my experience. I can never remember they key to do a tab either so I have to manually type everything or look up what the tab key is. And having to administer multiple servers would make me curl up into a little ball and cry if it had to be done on a tablet.

Re:Fanboy attack

[_xeno_]

Even this is disingenuous because Apple doesn't in any way prevent a people from creating a good app uploading it to the store for free and let people download it for free.

You either have a different definition of "for free" than I do, or you're purposely using misleading language.

In order for me to start "uploading it to the store for free" I have to pay at least something like $1100 for specialized hardware and the developer account in addition to the tablet. And, yes, I'm counting the cost of a bottom-end, cheapest, entirely unsuitable for development work MacBook in this, because the PARC vision allows you to do development on just the tablet itself.

So, no, I can't just create a good app and upload it for free. I can upload it for $1000+$100/year, and allow other people to download it without cost to them, but if I want to create an app, I have an upfront cost of at least $1100 on top of the cost of the original tablet.

And that all assumes Apple doesn't simply reject the app for no particular reason.

Re:Fanboy attack

[Pope]

Tablets are a tool for consumption not production or creativity. They can be used for it in the same way I can stir my coffee with a pen.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

Re:Fanboy attack

[Anonymous Coward]

"Apple doesn't in any way prevent a people from creating a good app uploading it to the store for free and let people download it for free."

other than sitting in the middle of the whole thing and using state of the art cryptography and software armouring to make sure only that happens from now until eternity, if AAPL shutdown so do all of their customers products functionality, you have to trash it, so perhaps he's pissed because up until the 90s "engineering" used to solve "engineering" problems, now it solves perpetual greed ones.

So fuck Apple, Microsoft, Google and everybody elses patented, trademarked, copyrighted walled garden chinese slave-made shitfest and shame on the developers who enabled it to happen, we will remember you well.

Re:Fanboy attack

[fuzzybunny]

That's a condemnation of Apple's methods, not of the tablet format itself.

The iPad was not technologically revolutionary - but it is hugely significant in that it's ingrained the idea of tablet computing in the mind of the average user vastly more than any product before it. It's essentially set the stage for Android and others to follow on.

Re:Fanboy attack

[SoupIsGood Food]

It also shows a 60/70's naïvety toward how nasty our computing world has become toward attacking other users for personal and political gain.

Yeah, mitigating modern malware techniques, particularly trojans, is a non-trivial problem. Apple's solution, the walled garden, is probably the wrong one, but no-one has come up with another credible security model that works as transparently or effectively for the end user. This is really an area of OS research that needs a ton of attention and effort that it's not getting - anti-malware applications are not cutting it. The solution needs to be baked-in, not bolt-on, and pro-active rather than reactive.

Re:Fanboy attack

[Anonymous Coward]

You obviously don't own a tablet. While they're excellent content consumption devices, they're poor content creation devices at best. Fat fingers can't make up for a keyboard and mouse in precision or accuracy. Yes, it's possible, just it's not very enjoyable.

Re:Fanboy attack

[Americano]

It's strange, typing on a tablet is identical to typing on a laptop or a desktop for me... don't they have bluetooth keyboards where you live?

Re:Fanboy attack

[Anonymous Coward]

"simulate all existing media in an editable/authorable form" soooo... i can download an ebook from iTunes and edit it?

Re:Fanboy attack

[mrex]

This has been absolutely done by the iPad and other tablets. People love to make the claim you can not create content on the iPad but its been proven time and again for the most part to be false beyond a few exceptions you can create just fine. People code on them, people write blogs or even books on them, people record and perform music on them etc.

I have to respectfully disagree with this to a significant degree. Coding natively on an iPad, for example, is just not feasible - there is no compiler, no debugger, no IDE available for any language. We can't even write shell scripts on un-jailbroken devices. I think that's a big part of what Kay is advocating for: a core focus on easily-developed applications, devices that encourage users to develop the technical skills necessary to create advanced content.

I think the notion of the tablet as a consumption-only device is overblown, but not totally unfounded. It is much more difficult than it "should be" to create many forms of content.

With that said, hopefully Kay will share more specifics on the fundamental choices OS developers could make to increase the security of their products without sacrificing usability.

(Posted from my iPad)

Re:Fanboy attack

[h4rr4r]

Take a deep breath.

I am an android user and very amateur dev. This is exactly why I don't bother with iOS.

Re:Fanboy attack

[marcello_dl]

This is like saying: "riding an unicycle is easy, because you can put its wheel into a bike and ride that one instead".

Re:Fanboy attack

[sribe]

...there's no way to install apps from your friend unless either you jailbreak your device, or your friend gets it into the App Store...

Not true.

Re:Fanboy attack

[Reapman]

You can code on the iPad? This is news. Whats the environment you use? Not talking about scripts or a text editor with basic syntax highlighting tho. I'm talking about being able to code a full project, with all necessary files, and preferably being able to compile it too - but that can be worked around.

I tried this with the Asus Transformer when it came out. Was... KIND OF... doable, but in the end it was a LOT easier to just use a 13" laptop and code on that. No sacrifices were required, completely compatabile with my revision controls, etc.

Also, this is the second time I heard you could write and release iOS apps for free - can you share how this is doable? I admit I don't follow iOS much anymore since I didn't want to spend $100 a year just to write hobby level code, so this change is quite exciting. Unless this post is a day late, then Fool on me...

Re:Fanboy attack

[RobbieCrash]

Even this is disingenuous because Apple doesn't in any way prevent a people from creating a good app uploading it to the store for free and let people download it for free.

Doesn't Apple charge a developers license fee of ~$100USD/year?

Re:Fanboy attack

[taskiss]

There are other ways to share applications outside the Apple App Store. HTML 5 and Javascript apps aren't restricted in a manner inconsistent with their programming paradigm, best I can tell.

Just because you don't get what you want doesn't mean lions are getting frisky with lambs somewhere.

Re:Fanboy attack

[h4rr4r]

Totally true.
Unless you think your friend should have to tithe to Church of apple each year.

Re:Fanboy attack

[StuartHankins]

I had to go look up what he was talking about by "EToy". It wanted to install a plugin. I didn't install it. He seems pretty bent out of shape about the whole thing. If you want something different, you're welcome to build it or pay to have someone else do it for you. All this whining gives me a headache.

Re:Fanboy attack

[StuartHankins]

So don't buy one, and don't use one. Build your own or whatever. Really, we don't care.

Re:Fanboy attack

[Americano]

No, it's like saying "riding a unicycle is hard, if you need a vehicle to get around, why don't you put a second wheel on it, and stop whining about how hard it is to ride a fucking unicycle?"

Re:Fanboy attack

[sribe]

Totally true. Unless...

In other words, not true.

Re:Fanboy attack

[h4rr4r]

No, I am saying it is totally true.

The unless part means you assume something that is not the case. Meaning you are twisting the truth using that.

Re:Fanboy attack

[Selfbain]

Well technically it's not true. If the friend has a developer account he can add your device and then deploy to it. It's not a great solution though.

Re:Fanboy attack

[Anonymous Coward]

There are several IDEs for javascript and Lua. Thye vary in quality, and aren't nearly as full featured as a desktop IDE. However that apears to primarily be a reaction to the market (people don't want to pay for an IDE on the iPad).

Re:Fanboy attack

[Specter]

I think what keeps being over looked here is what Apple brought to the scene with the iPad; an actual tablet computer. Prior to the iPad tablets were laptops without keyboards: heavy, buggy, hot, slow, clumsy, kludges that kept trying to force a desktop UI into a pseudo-touch/stylus interface.

Apple broke away from that and their success in being the first to understand what a tablet needed to be and _finally_ getting the rest of the world to understand what tablet computing _should be_ can be seen not only in their sales but also in their imitators. Every other single tablet on the market now is merely a variation on Apple's success without any additional innovation in the concept.

Re:Fanboy attack

[Anonymous Coward]

Copyright etc. are a bigger threat to this vision than Apple's "walled garden".

Re:Fanboy attack

[TubeSteak]

Indeed, everyone knows you stir coffee with a pencil!

Re:Fanboy attack

[StuartHankins]

It's actually more like saying, "buy a Bluetooth keyboard and it's practically identical to your desktop typing experience". If you're doing that much typing I can't imagine NOT having a dedicated keyboard.

Re:Fanboy attack

[Anonymous Coward]

That's not a pen, it's a penis. At least you got it out of your mouth for a bit.

Re:Fanboy attack

[StuartHankins]

If you're so upset about it, build your own. Make it do exactly what you want. Whatever.

It's like buying a white BMW for your kid and them getting whiny because it's not red. Grow up and quit bitching already.

Re:Fanboy attack

[dmacleod808]

I think the paradigm is more akin to using the onscreen keyboard with a mouse... how is it different than adding a SEPARATE keyboard *except in the case of a laptop of course*

Re:Fanboy attack

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the nth rant I've heard about this.

You're complaining that something which exists today -- that didn't even exist until recently -- doesn't work exactly the way you want it, so you're going to pitch a fit. Oh noes!

You realize you come across like a spoiled brat, don't you? I could give you the familiar "When I grew up, they didn't have..." but really it applies in this instance. A lousy $1100 and you're pissy about it? Do you know what computers used to cost in current money terms? This is very inexpensive, kiddo. Sorry, I don't drive a Bentley but you don't hear me bitching about it, do you?

If this is soooo important to you, put on your big girl pants and create something else. That'll show 'em.

You people are impossible.

Re:Fanboy attack

[gnasher719]

Doesn't Apple charge a developers license fee of ~$100USD/year?

Who cares? I mean, seriously, who gives a damn? That's less than a good meal with your girlfriend or boyfriend. That's a third of what many people spend on going to a football matched and getting pissed out of their head. It's a third of what you pay to listen to Barbara Streisand in a concert, and much more enjoyable for any normal person. Do you know how much it costs to join a golf club? And Apple lets you join something that is ten time more exclusive for a mere pittance of $100 per year.

Re:Fanboy attack

[StuartHankins]

So what? MSDN is how much? And surely if you're developing Windows apps professionally you have an MSDN subscription. And if you were a carpenter you'd pay for your hammer. So what? It's a lousy $100. If you can't afford it, you probably aren't selling any apps, which means you probably aren't doing a great job with your app.

If anything, I prefer a barrier to entry. Can you imagine how hard it would be to find apps if everyone was creating them?

Re:Fanboy attack

[thoth]

You either have a different definition of "for free" than I do, or you're purposely using misleading language.

In order for me to start "uploading it to the store for free" I have to pay at least something like $1100 for specialized hardware and the developer account in addition to the tablet.

You could also buy the low-end Mac Mini, for $600.

Re:Fanboy attack

[RobbieCrash]

The point wasn't if it was a good deal or if it was expensive; Apple doesn't let you do it for free.

As in, Apple does "prevent a people from creating a good app uploading it to the store for free."

Re: Fanboy attack

[mightyscotchpine]

I don't possess the powers of deduction and logic that you do. Could you explain to the rest of us how you arrived at that authoritative conclusion?

Re:Fanboy attack

[RobbieCrash]

I know!

Finding apps for Linux/PC is impossible! Everyone just creating things willy-nilly. If only there were a way to search for things!

Re:Fanboy attack

[Thyamine]

Actually, any development is going to require a device to develop on. Apple does require the developer license, but to suggest that developing for Android or Linux or Windows does not require a computer and cost is incorrect.

Re:Fanboy attack

[StuartHankins]

Don't know about you, but I hardly ever use my laptop keyboard. I have the same keyboard at home and at work. I much prefer the full size keys, numeric keypad, more ergonomic layout, and I don't feel bad when I throw it away and buy another when it gets worn out. My laptop screen is at eye level which means fewer headaches.

Re:Fanboy attack

[Em Adespoton]

Yes, I think the objection is not that you can't install a text editor on an iPad, but that the ecosystem is mainly aimed at one-way retrieval of content via Apple. As Kay notes, it's not just that you can't get your content into the App Store easily, but by default you can't even install something your friend made who's sitting right next to you— there's no way to install apps from your friend unless either you jailbreak your device, or your friend gets it into the App Store.

Everyone (including Kay) seems caught up in how Apple limits what can run directly on iOS. But with the original DynaBook, the entire Apple Store contents could be considered a configurable operating system -- under this view, it becomes exceedingly simple for someone to write software and share it with friends -- if the software is HTML5 compliant (or even using Apple's well-documented version). Looking at it this way, Safari is the platform, and you can write all sorts of things to run on it.

I think we've come so far since those early days and now take so much for granted that we make assumptions (both ways) in what we should and shouldn't be allowed to do on our devices. The original DynaBook was fully open, allowing anyone to share anything with friends, in a C64 push-poke kind of way. It never imagined that devices would not just be wirelessly connecting with each other and peripherals locally, but would be doing the same thing globally, with all the security repercussions that entails.

Amazingly, most of what people would want to write and share could be done via a web server and an HTML5-based Scheme interpreter. Kay likes Scheme, right?

Re:Fanboy attack

[Dixie_Flatline]

What complete bullshit. Do you complain because your PC/Server/Whatever has a DETACHABLE keyboard? What if the keyboard isn't there? What if somebody took it? What if you just don't keep the keyboard attached because it doesn't need to be attached all the time? Have you really ever run a server? Or a lot of servers? Sometimes you have to carry around a small SCREEN, for pity's sake. In point of fact, a tablet--ANY tablet, Android, Windows or Apple--has a built in advantage because you're never far away from a keyboard, even if it's kind of crummy for administering UNIX servers.

I've SSHed into plenty of things on my tablet, and if all you need to do is get a process listing or run a script, it works just fine. If you're writing an email, it works just fine. I have a colleague that can put his iPad on his lap and touch type at about 80% of what he normally gets on a normal keyboard. Do try to get with the times; a physical keyboard isn't strictly necessary anymore, even if you don't like using one much.

And, incidentally, it's clear you've never seen a unicycle either, since you CAN'T just jam that wheel into a bicycle or attach another wheel to the unicycle--they're fundamentally incompatible devices. You may as well suggest adding a bicycle wheel to a Ferrari. Even your metaphor is abjectly terrible.

Re:Fanboy attack

[IgnitusBoyone]

Actually, I find the GP's post very insightful

Re:Fanboy attack

[Anonymous Coward]

Even this is disingenuous because Apple doesn't in any way prevent a people from creating a good app uploading it to the store for free and let people download it for free. It shows a blatent misunderstanding of the app store, and reasons behind it. It also shows a 60/70's naïvety toward how nasty our computing world has become toward attacking other users for personal and political gain.

Ha! Alan Kay is being disingenous? How about you? The point is that programs like MIT Scratch don't even appear on the App Store because their primary function is to allow the sharing of creations between kids over the internet. Oh, but those creations contain naughty nasty "scripting code" which Apple forbids apps from downloading from the internet.

And you're saying the solution to this is to extend that program so the creations become full-fledged apps which, after paying $99 per year, those children can "share" by submitting them to the App Store as products? Fuck off. The others are right, you're a fanboy idiot who is simply not listening to reason.

Re:Fanboy attack

[StuartHankins]

There's a TON of junk apps on both platforms. Windows is the worst for it. Thanks you bolstered my point.

Re:Fanboy attack

[tepples]

Where is a high school student who owns an iPad that he received as a gift going to find $600 for a Mac mini?

Re:Fanboy attack

[Bob the Super Hamste]

It's like buying a white BMW for your kid and them getting whiny because it's not red. Grow up and quit bitching already.

If I had mod points you would get them as sadly that is how I got my first BMW for cheap so that actually does happen. The guy I bought it from originally got it for his daughter (divorced parents so probably trying to buy love) had every little defect and issue resolved and she didn't want it because it was white not red. The poor guy sunk several thousands of dollars into the car getting the brakes, suspension, and interior, like new as well as replacing all belts, hoses, engine gaskets, and cam yet the little brat didn't want it. It was even a California car and was rust free and was basically like new. I paid $2700 for it which was a little below market value for it but didn't have any of the annoying issues with an older used vehicle as they were all repaired on someone else's dime.

Re:Fanboy attack

[StuartHankins]

Speaking of "douche", wow, it must be your monthly.

Different people have different needs and different desires, and if I want to use a disposable keyboard with my laptop and throw it away when the keys get Cheetos in them and the letters worn off, that's my fucking prerogative. If I want to do that with my iPad, again it's my money, not yours.

Can you dig it?

Re:Fanboy attack

[_xeno_]

Trying to price the Mac Mini gets screwy, because you need to factor in the cost of a monitor and keyboard and mouse.

If you go with the cheapest options Apple provides for these when you order a Mac Mini, you'll balloon the price up to $1700. No, seriously, because the only monitor they offer bundled with the Mini is the $1000 27-inch Thunderbolt display.

Of course, you might have a display lying around, but it needs to support DisplayPort, so you might need to add an adapter...

Rather than play that game, I'm just sticking with the cheapest MacBook on their site, the $1000 one.

Re:Fanboy attack

[Em Adespoton]

Tel my how I can write an app on the iPad, and then share it with whomever I want. How do I just send it to my friend across the table?

Step 1: Create a new text document in your text editor of choice on the iPad
Step 2: write your HTML5-compliant* code (including JavaScript if needed -- plenty of sample code you can use for free to get a boost)
Step 3: share it with your friend via WiFi, Bluetooth, or just host it with an HTML server App and let them browse your device
Step 4: Your friend uses it.

* Use Apple's HTML5 extensions to make it even more app-like on iOS

Re:Fanboy attack

[sribe]

No, I am saying it is totally true.

Yes, I recognize that you are saying it is totally true, but I am pointing out that your statement is false.

The original statement was not "the only way to... is not acceptable to me", nor "the only way to... is morally reprehensible", nor "the only way to... is not practical for many"--it was "there is no way to...", which was blatantly wrong--it was a statement that was either designed to deceive, or was simply misinformed. But your statement that it was "totally true" was not misinformed; it was false, and knowingly so.

The unless part means you assume something that is not the case. Meaning you are twisting the truth using that.

This statement does not even make sense: the unless part does not mean I assume anything, I am not assuming anything, indeed it is you making an assumption (that what is not acceptable to you does not count, as though it doesn't even exist), and what you seem to mean I assume is in fact the case.

Simple logic for you: 0 != 1, "no way to..." is not the same as "only 1 way to...". I am not twisting the truth, I am pointing out the complete truth where you have twisted it by eliding that part which you don't like. Saying "there is no way to..." could be said to be twisting the truth, on the premise that it's shorthand for "there is no way acceptable to me to..." but that would be an understatement, the fact is: you were lying.

Re:Fanboy attack

[DarkOx]

I read that and the first thing I thought is just because its not good enough for Apple does not mean it has no value and should not be put out there.

Access to less than ideal software can be a great thing!

I have over the years run across tons of scripts, small basic programs, little C snippets in the back of magazines, than on bbs, finally on blogs etc that were just terrible. Hardly worked, did not consider not so uncommon corner cases, were in efficient etc. Still they offered a great an useful idea, and more important one I had not had. If you can get something like that a little spit and polish and you may have something really great.

Apple though would say its to buggy, has quality problems or whatever and it would never see the light of day.

Re:Fanboy attack

[_xeno_]

Apple does require the developer license, but to suggest that developing for Android or Linux or Windows does not require a computer and cost is incorrect.

I'm not trying to suggest that. Android tablets also doesn't fit the "PARC vision" because the vision as described in the article was being able to create new apps on the device itself. Although in the case of Android, I expect it would at least be theoretically possible to create an app for creating other apps, while such a thing is flat-out impossible on "official" iOS.

What I'm questioning is the claimed ability to "upload apps to the Apple app store for free" which, as far as I can tell, can only be true if you mean "priced at $0" and not "at no extra cost to the developer." In the PARC vision, all you need is the original device, nothing extra.

Re:Fanboy attack

[mightyscotchpine]

Wow. So, what made you think of penises? Do you think of them a lot, or was it the first thing that popped up?

Re:Fanboy attack

[Reapman]

So nothing for say C or it's variants?

Re:Fanboy attack

[maccodemonkey]

Tel my how I can write an app on the iPad, and then share it with whomever I want. How do I just send it to my friend across the table?

Enterprise Provisioning.
http://developer.apple.com/library/ios/#featuredarticles/FA_Wireless_Enterprise_App_Distribution/Introduction/Introduction.html

Yeah, I know, you have to pay up a few hundred to Apple. But it let's you distribute apps among your friends/colleagues with no device registration simply by sending a link to your app (or attachment) to iOS devices. It's not meant for public distribution, but I use it for private apps all the time, and it totally bypasses the app store review process (which is an intended consequence.)

Re:Fanboy attack

[Anonymous Coward]

My post is total fanboy rubbish.

FTFY

Re:Fanboy attack

[h4rr4r]

Please tell me how using safari I can make a wifi scanning tool. I will wait.

Assumptions with what we should be allowed to do on our devices? I SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO DO ANY FUCKING THING I WANT, IT IS MINE!

Please tell me how I can make my wifi scanning tool using scheme running in safari.

Re:Fanboy attack

[poetmatt]

the Ipad is an extension of apple's methods, so you don't get one without the other.

Re:Fanboy attack

[dgatwood]

Of course, you might have a display lying around, but it needs to support DisplayPort, so you might need to add an adapter...

No, it doesn't. The Mac Mini comes with an HDMI port and an HDMI to DVI adapter. There are only three situations where you would need an adapter: you own a dual-link DVI monitor, you own two monitors, or you own an ancient VGA-only monitor.

Re:Fanboy attack

[Anonymous Coward]

Tell me how I can write an app on the iPad, and then share it with whomever I want. How do I just send it to my friend across the table?

Native apps, no, but write it in HTML5 and distribute it through the web. Got a pretty cool app from a friend of mine that way.

Re:Fanboy attack

[dimeglio]

People make it sound like administrating unix is hard. You should try to administer Windows Server from a tablet. That's a real challenge - although less so with the new GUI-less options.

Re:Fanboy attack

[Wookact]

You tell em grandpa. Shake your cane some more. Keep them darn kids off your lawn.

Re:Fanboy attack

[Anonymous Coward]

why can't you just push an APK to vanilla android? there are full blown IDEs for android that run ON android. You can even load full stacks for sql, php, apache, and other things.

Its just linux with a funky userland and proprietary applicatons alongside openSource stuff.

http://android.appstorm.net/roundups/developer/15-apps-for-programming-on-android/

and on the keyboard and mouse thing, there is always bluetooth. Hell, you can even use USB OTG Host on most decent models to get full USB support, for you old foggies that are using a ps2 converter to still run your M22 from 30 years ago.

Re:Fanboy attack

[thoth]

I started in computers in the 1980's, when computers were expensive as hell and the dream of a one 1% as functional as today's phones and tablets was literally science fiction.

The the high school student who got a gift of a $600 system - STFU and use it to read any of the thousands of free resources devoted to Javascript or some scripting language like Python, Ruby, etc. Install an SSH app, get a VPS linux distribution and have about 1000 times better access to computers than any of the people back when THIS SHIT WAS BEING INVENTED did.

Or, said student should have just requested a Mac Mini in the first place, or some cheap beater PC and spent the difference on Visual Studio, or gotten a Chromebook and done whatever.

Basically, color me unfucking sympathetic to the plight of the student with a $600 modern tablet. Those things are orders of magnitude more powerful than any computer I had personal ownership of for a decade or two.

Re:Fanboy attack

[h4rr4r]

1. Go EABOD
2. This is not brand loyalty, I would be happy with any open handset. iOS is the very opposite of that.

Re:Fanboy attack

[amicusNYCL]

Isn’t it crystal clear that this last and most important service is quite lacking in today’s computing for the general public? Apple with the iPad and iPhone goes even further and does not allow children to download an Etoy made by another child somewhere in the world. This could not be farther from the original intentions of the entire ARPA-IPTO/PARC community in the ’60s and ’70s.

Even this is disingenuous because Apple doesn't in any way prevent a people from creating a good app uploading it to the store for free and let people download it for free.

Alan Kay is talking about a system where children can easily create toys, games, learning tools, etc in an authoring environment that they can use and then share those creations with others, and you suggest that instead they create an Apple(tm) iPad(tm) "app" and load it on the Apple(tm) App Store(tm)? This is what Alan is talking about, not a corporate-controlled cash cow. How many pre-teens do you know that are creating iOS applications? We're talking about tools to help kids learn about computing and technology, not a system that a child prodigy can use to stun adults by being proficient at. That's what Alan is talking about, and I don't think that is being disingenuous. I also don't think that you know more than Alan Kay. Once you've been a fellow at Xerox, Apple, Disney, and HP, then you can come with your valuable expertise to let us know how great the Apple ecosystem is for teaching kids about computing and technology.

Re:Fanboy attack

[david_thornley]

I'm not trying to suggest that. Android tablets also doesn't fit the "PARC vision" because the vision as described in the article was being able to create new apps on the device itself. Although in the case of Android, I expect it would at least be theoretically possible to create an app for creating other apps, while such a thing is flat-out impossible on "official" iOS.

In which case I'm going to suggest that the PARC vision has problems, and that the reason it won't happen is because it is, at least in part, dumb. This means no disrespect to Kay and colleagues, since the vision was created long before we could get significant practical experience.

I like my Nexus 7. I don't want to develop software on it. The on-screen keyboard is unsuited for programming, and even if I get a Bluetooth keyboard it's got far too little screen space. It works much better to develop on my laptop, which is much better for such things, and transfer to my Nexus.

Until we get something like fold-out screens that are convenient to carry, along with fold-out keyboards (one of the nice things about my Nexus is the number of pockets it will fit in), I really don't want to program on my tablet. Once this happens, I will be able to program comfortably on it, and development environments will appear on it.

BTW, it is possible to program HTML 5 on an iDevice, and that's a valid way to run many possible apps. (And, since a developer's license costs considerably less annually than I was spending on Mac programming environments in the 90s, I'm not real sympathetic to the argument that capabilities that cost money don't count.)

Re:Fanboy attack

[thoth]

Trying to price the Mac Mini gets screwy, because you need to factor in the cost of a monitor and keyboard and mouse.

If your super tight on money and at the point of scavenging for parts, the Mac Mini is the cheapest way to go, since you can SURELY turn up a monitor, mouse, and keyboard for free or close to it.

I own two Apple computers (Mac Mini and Mac Book Pro) so I know all about their pricing. Nevertheless, the FACT is the least amount of money you need to shell out for a full blown OSX development system is... $599 plus tax/shipping. Everything above that is just fine tuning how many luxuries you want.

Re:Fanboy attack

[SolitaryMan]

I kinda feel that this is the problem with all mobile devices. You can do pretty much everything with them, but for anything you use them for there is a device that will beat a crap out of it in terms of functionality, usability, everything. It may be a good compromise, I mean it *is* portable and you *can* do pretty much anything, but if you are a professional, you have to have a real thing.

Re:Fanboy attack

[Anonymous Coward]

I use mine all the time.

Re:Fanboy attack

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Shhh. Don't worry, the pain will pass. Truth stings, don't it, kiddo?

2. Call it "anti-loyalty" if you will - the point still stands. You are SO CONCERNED that your date might not be the most popular kid in school that you spend endless hours shitting up Slashdot with your inane rants about how "the popular kid" is really not that smart, that handsome, and that good at football - certainly not as amazing as YOUR date, anyway.

Only people who are immensely insecure behave like this, and can't seem to grasp that everybody has their own reasons for making a choice, and that those reasons can differ greatly from person to person. What matters to you does not necessarily matter to many other people - that doesn't make them stupid, that doesn't make them idiots, that doesn't make them ignorant - it makes them different (in the most neutral, non-critical sense of the word) - that's it. They have different needs and wants than you do, and that's perfectly fine.

Next, you'll probably try to shout about how I'm an iOS fanboy, so let me nip that in the bud right here: my phone is a Galaxy S3 (upgraded from an old iPhone, which I don't miss), and the only thing I use non-Linux platforms for is running MS Outlook at work - a job where I spend about 85% of every day working on Linux servers. The reason I'm disagreeing with you is, as I noted, you're being a tit: how you derive satisfaction from criticizing trivial choices that other people make is beyond me, but you only serve to make yourself look like a shallow, brand-loyal, superficial cunt: if you don't want to be treated that way, maybe you should try growing up.

The choice is yours: you can accept these truths - to learn & grow from them, or you can continue being a tit. Now, I'm not a betting man - but where you're concerned, I think my money's safe on betting that you'll continue to be a tit.

Re:Fanboy attack

[K. S. Kyosuke]

Install an SSH app, get a VPS linux distribution and have about 1000 times better access to computers than any of the people back when THIS SHIT WAS BEING INVENTED did.

Back in the day when Kay and his friends started working on the Interim Dynabook, it was all too clear that HW was going to improve. It was also all too clear that it was software that would either make it or break it. So far, the SW has been breaking it ever since the advent of Unix and Windows, if you compare it to the original vision.

Also, the point of Dynabook was for people to be able to have useful open, flexible, user-extensible SW on their local machines, not to use them as dumb terminals. Somehow this point seems to elude you.

Re:Fanboy attack

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know what you mean by "specialized equipment." Do you mean you have to buy a Mac? Why would you want to develop iOS apps if you aren't already a Mac user? By the way, the $1100 you mention is a bit of hyperbole; a Mac Mini costs far less than that and is plenty powerful to develop software for iOS.

Re:Fanboy attack

[flargleblarg]

Parents.

Re:Fanboy attack

[flargleblarg]

It really depends what you're doing. I happen to largely agree with you, but there are some good music and art applications out there. Also, if you're writing, say, a novel, then you can attach a bluetooth keyboard and be completely fine. I myself haven't done this, but it stands to reason, and others confirm that it works for them.

Re:Fanboy attack

[Anonymous Coward]

you're fat aren't you? I mean, if Cheetos clog your keyboard, I imagine your arteries are likewise clogged as well.

Re:Fanboy attack

[K. S. Kyosuke]

Actually looking at his gripes, and they are so far and away from legitimate that there is a very valid argument to be made that he's full of shit.

Actually, if you read the papers at the VPRI site, his gripes are so close to being legitimate that there is a very valid argument to be made that you are full of shit.

This has been absolutely done by the iPad and other tablets. People love to make the claim you can not create content on the iPad but its been proven time and again for the most part to be false beyond a few exceptions you can create just fine.

OK, show me the VPRI system implementation for the iPad. I suspect that Apple would never, EVER allow such a system to be distributed through their channels.

It shows a blatent misunderstanding of the app store, and reasons behind it.

And this shows your blatant misunderstanding of the Dynabook idea, and the reasons behind it. It was supposed to make it not only possible for you to easily create stuff, including new behavior (code), but also to make it as simple for two people to exchange digital stuff as is the exchange of books between the same two people in a room.

Re:Fanboy attack

[h4rr4r]

1. Calling me a kiddo, aren't you a dear
2. I do not care if it is popular or not. As it turns out those android is a lot more popular than iOS.

Go troll someone else.

Re:Fanboy attack

[danfromsb]

It is fine for Apple to charge to put it on the store, but it should not cost you money to load your own app on your own tablet.

Re:Fanboy attack

[MachineShedFred]

I see what you did there. Except he says that iPad "betrays" the Dynabook vision.

Nobody ever claimed that iPad was supposed to complete the Dynabook vision. In fact, you could likely scour the Internet for weeks and only find iPad and Dynabook mentioned together in this particular interview.

Dynabook is a vision. iPad is a shipping product. There is a massive difference between the two.

Re:Fanboy attack

[Anonymous Coward]

It's essentially free, though. Compared to the cost of a system, and compared to the time you'll spend. It really isn't much.

Re:Fanboy attack

[Anonymous Coward]

2. I do not care if it is popular or not.

BUT....

As it turns out those android is a lot more popular than iOS.

Yeah, you're not an insecure tit at all. Clearly. Thanks for clearing that up, seriously.

Behave like a child, get treated like a child. Don't like it? Grow the fuck up. It's possible to debate the technical merits of a platform, and its suitability for specific purposes like an adult. But all you have succeeded in doing is shitting up this thread with your ignorant-ass whining about inconsequential choices other people make about how they spend their money and time, which suggests you'd probably be more at home over on Reddit.

Now, if I promise to eat that bag of dicks, will you promise to go die in a fire?

Re:Fanboy attack

[viperidaenz]

They're so far from generation 2 the 90's called and want their Apple Newton back. 2000 called and want their iPAQ's too. There's been all the PalmOS devices too. The Tablet PC's that came out with Windows XP tablet edition.

The current crop of tablets are maybe gen 4, 5 or 6? They've sacrificed everything productive for style and design though.

Re:Fanboy attack

[h4rr4r]

Says the troll.

Re:Fanboy attack

[BasilBrush]

Artistically stifling? Isn't it odd then that whenever there are artists doing some artistry with a tablet, it's virtually always with an iPad.

e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzr6kPoxQhI

Or did you intend to limit the artistry to the creation of apps. Strange then that there are more apps of better quality on the iPad than on Android tablets. And the categories that are missing are anything but artistic in nature.

Re:Fanboy attack

[BasilBrush]

How about any job (and there are many) which used to be done walking (or driving) around with a clipboard, and then someone back at the office doing data entry from the paper form.

Just because your own kind of job doesn't require mobility, doesn't mean that all professionals don't need mobility.

Re:Fanboy attack

[Anonymous Coward]

Awww, didums poor widdle feelings get hurt? Tough shit. Contribute something that is both true and insightful, or shut the fuck up with your endless whining.

You shit up this site like almost none other with your useless chatter -- maybe that makes you feel good, but I can assure you, most of the rest of us view you as a spoiled child pitching a fit because he hasn't gotten his way.

Maybe your mom upstairs thinks it's cute. The rest of us think it makes you an obnoxious twat.

Re:Fanboy attack

[BasilBrush]

Please show me were I can upload applications for free to the Apple store and without restrictions.
My application is a wireless network monitoring tool, which my understanding is that they are totally banned.

You don't have an application, and never will. You're an admin. That's the job you do when you like computers but you're too stupid to be even a grunt coder.

Re:Fanboy attack

[h4rr4r]

Yes, clearly your trolling is insightful.

Go troll elsewhere. Don't like being called a troll? Stop trolling.

Re:Fanboy attack

[Em Adespoton]

Please tell me how using safari I can make a wifi scanning tool. I will wait.

Assumptions with what we should be allowed to do on our devices? I SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO DO ANY FUCKING THING I WANT, IT IS MINE!

Please tell me how I can make my wifi scanning tool using scheme running in safari.

I think you didn't fully comprehend what I wrote. I made no assumptions about what you should be allowed to do on your device. You can use it to summon pink fairies if you want. What I did was question the concept of the device itself -- the device is a HTML5 browser, with some added plugins thrown in for accomplishing specific tasks (we call these Apps).

Just like I'm not going to tell you you can't use a screwdriver to hammer nails, I'm not going to tell you you can't run a wifi scanning tool on your iPad.

Of course, jailbreaking the iPad, you actually CAN modify it to run a decent wifi scanning tool. Works better than using a screwdriver to hammer nails. You could also install Android on it, or just buy a copycat tablet with Android already installed. The iPad (nor Apple) doesn't prevent you from doing any of this. Apple won't support it outside of its original configuration, but hey -- Skil isn't likely to give you support on that dinged up screwdriver either.

The problem here is that many people think they're getting a computer when they get an iPad, and that's not what it is. But what they get is still miles ahead of what was envisioned in the DynaBook -- just not via Apple's ObjectiveC SDK.

Re:Fanboy attack

[h4rr4r]

The ipad is a computer, sure apple tries to cripple it, but it is still a computer. It is not an HTML5 browse and plugins, it runs native code if the church of Apple approves your native code.

So any non-ipad is a copycat tablet? Fanboy much?

Re:Fanboy attack

[Dr. Evil]

How do you touch-type on a touchscreen?

Re:Fanboy attack

[SolitaryMan]

The point was more about creativity.

Still, I'm pretty sure most of those tasks were solved by special devices long before iStuff showed up.

Re:Fanboy attack

[BasilBrush]

Up to now you've been winning. Now you've just reminded everyone how poor the results are in the ideal FOSS platform.

You guys seriously want everything to be as user hostile as desktop Linux?

Re:Fanboy attack

[BasilBrush]

Nothing is ever "solved", there are simply ever improving products addressing needs. For sure there were mobile devices serving professionals before iOS. But the solutions since iOS have been much improved.

What sort of creativity? The only block is on developing apps for no cost. (Which is why slashdot are unusual in their hate.) Every other sort of creativity is well served.

Re:Fanboy attack

[Anonymous Coward]

They don't?
Please show me were I can upload applications for free to the Apple store and without restrictions.

My application is a wireless network monitoring tool, which my understanding is that they are totally banned.

Apple is very successful at turning computers into something their owners do not control.

That's not a very good example of children sharing "etoys" now is it?

Sorry, but the Dynabook could be very well just be an iPad app. What's missing is the content, not free wheeling hardware level access to all apps.

Re:Fanboy attack

[Anonymous Coward]

and very amateur dev

A Linux zealot that's an amateur dev... You're the perfect freetard stereotype. Go GNU/Linux!

Re:Fanboy attack

[jdschulteis]

Amazingly, most of what people would want to write and share could be done via a web server and an HTML5-based Scheme interpreter. Kay likes Scheme, right?

I don't know what he thinks about Scheme but Alan Kay probably does like Smalltalk.

Re:Fanboy attack

[Em Adespoton]

Amazingly, most of what people would want to write and share could be done via a web server and an HTML5-based Scheme interpreter. Kay likes Scheme, right?

I don't know what he thinks about Scheme but Alan Kay probably does like Smalltalk.

Yeah; I figured SmallTalk was too close to Alan and too far from what others would use though ;)

An HTML5 Squeak interpreter would also be nifty.

Re:Fanboy attack

[gnasher719]

If you go with the cheapest options Apple provides for these when you order a Mac Mini, you'll balloon the price up to $1700. No, seriously, because the only monitor they offer bundled with the Mini is the $1000 27-inch Thunderbolt display.

"Bring your own mouse, keyboard, and monitor".

Re:Fanboy attack

[TheSeatOfMyPants]

Actually, Apple borrowed the concept from PalmOS, changed some minor things, and loaded it on larger-format screens -- they didn't innovate or design the UI type any more than Google did. (While they didn't mimic the Newton, I wouldn't be surprised if Palm did borrow many of the UI concepts from an earlier company that's just not coming to mind.)

Re:Fanboy attack

[Plumpaquatsch]

This is like saying: "riding an unicycle is easy, because you can put its wheel into a bike and ride that one instead".

As opposed to saying "riding a unicycle is impossible; I know because I once tried riding a bicycle with a wheel missing for two hours."

Re:Fanboy attack

[fuzzybunny]

Every end-user computing product on the market today borrowed significantly from earlier innovators, who in turn often borrowed heavily from others before them.

My point about Apple is that they were not technologically revolutionary, but were the first to truly crack the mass market. And yes, I include Palm in this - I was a long term Palm user, starting with the Palm Pro - the Nokia Communicator, the Newton, and many others. The iPad is important because it's essentially commoditized the tablet.

There'll be other, better products and manufacturers. Android's a start. So is Surface, so is BB10. Their and iPad's successors will, however, be accepted because of the massive appeal of iPad. That's all.

Re:Fanboy attack

[Proteus]

There's no doubt that the iPad is optimized as a consumption machine. But I think the focus on the walled App Store is a little misleading. It's true that creating and sharing a native iOS app is onerous -- but Apple has excellent support for offline-capable, "installable" HTML5-based apps. People seem to forget that a lot

Now, I'm not saying that the good support for HTML5 apps absolves Apple of the problems with the App Store; but it does mean that saying "you can't use an iPad to create and share an app with your friends" is inaccurate.

Re:Fanboy attack

[Proteus]

It has to go through Apple. I needs to meet Apples arbitrary corporate 'standard'

Only if it's a native app. If it's an HTML5 app, then you can make it available -- and installable -- instantly with no review from Apple. The only problem is that the HTML5 apps don't give you access to the complete capabilities of the device.

Re:Fanboy attack

[SolitaryMan]

Well, pretty much any sort of creativity: creating/playing/processing music, creating/editing pictures, creating/editing video, writing software.

I can give you writing novels, because the requirement for tool is quite minimalistic and the fact that you can write anywhere probably makes the laptop perfect for it.

Again, I'm not claiming that you can't create/edit videos on you tablet, I'm just saying that they are by far not the best tool for any of those tasks.

Re:Fanboy attack

[BasilBrush]

The last one I already covered.

For the rest, there are professional artists in all those areas that use the iPad as one of their tools. And when they do, it's because the iPad is the best tool for that particular job.

Take musicians for example. Many of them are using iPads when gigging, as part of their kit.

Re:Fanboy attack

[jp10558]

And we're back again to the position that in practical use, the tablets *are not* computers, or are only computers in the sense that new Dishwashers are computers.

This, by the way, is why I don't buy "name brand" tablets because I like to save my money for the new ultra consumable / disposable portable screen that's out next year.

Many of the chinese / knockoff tablets also come with an unlocked boot loader so you can flash the firmware with whatever if you want, and come with Adroid rooted for you.

There are also more niche devices more like the PARC vision for how open they are, if not for form factor - like the OpenPandora and some of the Ubuntu tablets planned.

Not Sure I Understand the Post-PC Concept

[The Cat]

Sometimes I wonder why we are so quick to discard the PC. I certainly hope it won't become a symbol of lost opportunity.

Re:Not Sure I Understand the Post-PC Concept

[Joce640k]

iPad is shiny!

Re:Not Sure I Understand the Post-PC Concept

[gl4ss]

well, all the industry pundits who want to discard the pc are the one's that would be keeping pc's to create stuff for the replacements...

Re:Not Sure I Understand the Post-PC Concept

[Anonymous Coward]

Shiny shiny trendy shiny! Happy trendy shiny shiny!

Re:Not Sure I Understand the Post-PC Concept

[Anonymous Coward]

Because for the vast majority of iPad/other tablet buyers, they're either:

1) Using tablets as a secondary device, and continuing to use their PC (I have a tablet, a laptop, and a desktop. No plans to do away with my "computer", though I expect the somewhat old desktop and somewhat old laptop may converge into a single modern laptop with a dock & dual monitors when it comes time to replace them.)
2) Basic users who have zero need for the features of a PC.

Choice is good. Just because somebody else chooses something that's not appropriate for your needs doesn't mean they're "wrong" - they may have different priorities, and different uses for the tool.

Re:Not Sure I Understand the Post-PC Concept

[psnyder]

For a long amount of time, a very large amount of people have only used PCs for the same functions that you can now find in any mobile device (emails, checking news, entertainment, etc). The rest of the "opportunities" a PC provides are unused bloat for many people.

But a "Post-PC" era isn't coming anytime soon (unless you count today as a "Post-TV" era).

Re:Not Sure I Understand the Post-PC Concept

[Anonymous Coward]

Sometimes I wonder why we are so quick to discard the PC

Because 99% of the time all people need is a display and an input device connected to the interwebs. The big box sitting under/on the desk is not actually adding any value. Since we've stuck to 1080p for so long, miniature devices can now handle video decoding, so the only task left for PCs that a significant number of users engage in is gaming, and that has been slowly shifting to consoles.

Post-PC doesn't mean no keyboard&monitors. It doesn't mean no high-end desktop workstations. It just means much fewer traditional PCs because we don't need them.

Re:Not Sure I Understand the Post-PC Concept

[NatasRevol]

Shiny happy people?

Re:Not Sure I Understand the Post-PC Concept

[Anonymous Coward]

Not like they stopped making MacBooks just because they might compete with iPads. Tablets just happen to be a more convenient form factor for consuming content, even if they're ill suited for creating it. But if you want to write that blog, whip together some webpage, or whatever, all while on the go, then why not just get a laptop even if it's bigger and stop being stupid about it?

Re:Not Sure I Understand the Post-PC Concept

[Specter]

...because it's a hot, power hungry, big, buggy, malware ridden, unreliable, overcomplicated, expensive, time consuming pain in the ass for almost everyone who isn't a computer geek (and that's nearly everybody).

Re:Not Sure I Understand the Post-PC Concept

[MacTO]

We aren't discarding the PC.

Many of the people who started using PCs in the past 20 years weren't actually interested in computers. They were looking for a communications device that connected them to the Internet. The Internet, in turn, connected them to family, friends, and businesses. A subset of those went beyond that by using the Internet as a research tool and their computer as a content creation tool. Yet even then their use was limited by their interest in the technology: very few people learned how to do proper database searches and never really explored the potential of content creation tools. Is it any wonder that they jumped for smartphones and tablets when the opportunity arose, since they fit the needs of those users like a glove.

The early adopters of computers, as well as a portion of children introduced to computers since then, are interested in general purpose computers. Some of them are interested in the technology itself, while others are interested in what the technology can do. Since mobile phones and tablets don't reflect their needs (and likely won't due to the limited scope of interaction), they will continue to be interested in PCs. These people will keep PCs alive, while the volume of PCs used by institutions will keep them cheap.

Re:Not Sure I Understand the Post-PC Concept

[Dixie_Flatline]

My Mother is a 60+ year old Chinese woman that never really liked working with computers much. A mouse looks clumsy in her hand, and she can't touch type.

The people here on /. are probably never going to give up PCs, but always remember that WE'RE the weird ones in society. Our use cases are very different.

I got my Mom an iPad mini and she can sit and play scrabble with people and read her email. Typing is just as easy (or difficult, if you prefer) as it was before, but now we can chat over facetime. Even the prospect of installing something like Skype is a bit beyond her ken (my sister installed Scrabble for her).

So that's who the post-PC world is for. People that arguably never should've had anything to do with PCs in the first place. I personally use my own iPad as a reading and gaming device, but I do my work on full PCs. The more I use a tablet device, the more I realise how much overkill my full browser and keyboard are for 90% of my non-work tasks.

Computing is a field where we EXPECT things to change and shift. 25 years of PC dominance and we expected it to last? It's surprising that it made it this long, really.

Re:Not Sure I Understand the Post-PC Concept

[Anonymous Coward]

I hear you.

I recently relented and bought two ipads for the family. As a consumption device (educational for the kids, email/skype/notes/calendar/browsing), it's great, even fantastic. But fuck me sideways and call me Martha, but it's useless for anything else. Sharing files between devices, or even apps on the same fucking device, is just really, really, awful.

If you're accustomed to being able to do whatever you want and save/send wherever you want (like you can on windows/linux/mac/android), then the iPad will drive you fucking nuts until you accept the Apple way (walled garden blah blah).

Re:Not Sure I Understand the Post-PC Concept

[tlhIngan]

Sometimes I wonder why we are so quick to discard the PC. I certainly hope it won't become a symbol of lost opportunity.

We aren't discarding the PC. Just the same way, we aren't discarding pickup trucks. They're extremely general use devices - they can do lots of things and have lots of capabilities, but they aren't necessarily the best thing for all purposes. Just like you can use a pickup as your "go around town" vehicle, or to haul cargo, or other tasks, doesn't mean it's necessarily the best vehicle for the job - there's fuel consumption, other vehicles that could do the job better, parking, etc.

The PC is the same - instead of needing multiple PCs to do things, you consolidate down because there are other better devices to do things. Need to look up data on the go? A smartphone does that without the awkwardness of having to dig out your laptop, wake it up, and look up the information. (Try looking up prices online while shopping doing this, for example). The smartphone is smaller, more portable, and has better battery life for going about your day - something no laptop really has.

Likewise, a tablet is a nice companion to your living room - a big screen to complement your big screen TV, able to quickly look up information that crops up ("didn't this actor do ...", look up TV listings, control your DVR, serve as an alternate stream, game controller, etc).

Or for streaming services - it's sure easier to plug in a Roku and watch Netflix than it is to have a PC in the room, boot it up, start your web browser, type Netflix and click here, there. Even with remote controls and UIs.

Network file servers are nice as well to hold your movies, music and photos to share to everything without being stuck on one PC.

And there's the PC, for the other things that I didn't mention - everything else. It can do everything I said you can do with other devices so it will remain a staple of computing because not everyone can justify a need. If you don't look up information online while going about your day, you don't need a smartphone, But you probably want a web browser still, so your PC can do it quite wonderfully. If you don't watch much streaming services, you don't have one of those Rokus, but you may want to watch the occasional YouTube video, on your PC.

Basically, instead of PCs in every room to serve every need, devices specialized - being simpler to use appliances that did their jobs very well, while the PCs stayed useful doing other jobs.

That's what the post-PC era is - we'll always need a PC, but what we need it for has changed from "everything" to "everything else".

Re:Not Sure I Understand the Post-PC Concept

[Anonymous Coward]

Your welcome: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostrophe#Possessive_apostrophe
The irony is free of charge too.

Re:Not Sure I Understand the Post-PC Concept

[ZFox]

Shiny happy people with rolled cuff tight-jeans?

Re:Not Sure I Understand the Post-PC Concept

[thoth]

Sometimes I wonder why we are so quick to discard the PC. I certainly hope it won't become a symbol of lost opportunity.

The PC is overkill and too expensive for what a large number of customers actually use them for.

I love my PCs (OSX and Windows) and will always have one, but the simple fact is I see what my tech-savvy-but-not-developer friends do with their computers and their needs are essentially satisfied by tablets. I see what my relatives use theirs for. Tablets are the future for the chunk of customers that aren't current computer owners, and hell, most of the ones that are could get by with tablets.

Sure, there's a few things that would be cumbersome without a PC, but those tasks aren't critical path, or even common.

Re:Not Sure I Understand the Post-PC Concept

[John.Banister]

In my experience, people who use their devices in the manner you describe often complain that the one they have won't "just do this one thing I want." Sometimes you want a device that's capable of being programmed, not so that you can program it, but so that your smart friend can program it for you. OTOH, the secret mental smile while saying "wish I could help you but those things won't let me do that" can feel pretty delightful.

Re:Not Sure I Understand the Post-PC Concept

[antdude]

I am sticking with computers especially when I can customize the hardwares. I am not into tablets, touchscreens, etc. Yes, I am old school and old user. Give me clicky keyboards, mice, analog, etc.

Re:Not Sure I Understand the Post-PC Concept

[ADRA]

PC's have and will continue to service the needs of novices and experienced individuals for decades now. I had my PS1 bought for my family around 25 years ago and we knew literally nothing about computers. We learned to use the tools available to do a job, whatever that happened to be. We were able to get by learning to use a word processor, spreadsheet, and eventually for me basic programming.

I guess the main question would demand, if we're post, PC then what makes PC's so inflexible to the needs of today's consumers. You could just shrug it all off and say, well, you don't need a big heavy clunky thing to lug around anywhere, but you won't find your granny or most 'leisure' users lugging around their tablets, laptops and certainly not towers easily at all.

So the question you have to ask yourself is in all the decades of computer and PC advancement, but what makes personal computers so much incapable of living up to today's consumers? Price?
Top Amazon Selling Tablets: $199, $159, $269, $179, $299
Top Amazon Selling Laptops: $249, $469, $1,129, $239, $1,129

As long as you're not buying a apple notebook, the price comparisons are pretty close. Factor in the cost for a real blutooth keyboard (basically required for longer than casual use) and many laptops area cheaper than their tablet counterparts.

"But NO, its all about the TOUCH!"
Touch becomes a necessity at tablet form-factors with "lean back" characteristics, but lean back can't and won't be used for all casual computing needs, hence the attached keyboard.

"But its about the appz!"
There are a lot of applications focused on mobile right now, many of which are also rans. You can look back to the consumer introduction of the CD-ROM for a perfect reflection of the sentement. The CD-ROM brought in Multimedia into our computers in ways that were never experienced before. As such, a ton of products were created for it. Most were unsuitable, crap, sold poorly and went broke, and some really invented the platform and found good uses for it. There will be many good uses for touch centric devices, but to assume that these devices in themselves are the future of computing is rather delusional.

"But they don't get viruses"
Nether do most computers these days either. A security exploitation vector is only as good as its underlying technology, and although tablets and phone OS's by in large make it very difficult to gain access to things they shouldn't, OS's will continue to be exploitable regardless of which hardware they're running on. Windows has increasingly made it harder to be infected with all sorts of viruses, and I imagine they will only get better at this. Linux and Mac are in a better position, and eventually they too will develop better user facing security control mechanisms.

In conclusion, I think we may have seen the peak (or close to it) in terms of western society PC adoption as a % of population, but that doesn't mean PC's are destined to become minicomputers. They will always serve as their intended roll of end-user input for non-trivial content creation, control, and management functions. These are rolls that would be difficult if not untenable for other device formats, and quite frankly why bother? PC's only became so ubiquitous because they're so good at being everything for everyone. They're substantially cheaper in terms of their actual computing power, and they're a known quantity that pretty much anyone between 10-50 have had work/school exposure to.

Re:Not Sure I Understand the Post-PC Concept

[Anonymous Coward]

...because it's a hot, power hungry, big, buggy, malware ridden, unreliable, overcomplicated, expensive, time consuming pain in the ass for almost everyone who isn't a computer geek (and that's nearly everybody).

Mostly rubbish. They are cooler than they used to be, they use less power now than before, mine hasn't had malware in more than 15 years, mine likewise has been incredibly reliable (yours is yours, don't lump yours in with mine, start with good hardware, then chose good, reliable software, don't install crap), desktop PC's are less expensive than laptops, or tablets, and nearly less expensive than smartphones. Oh, and its the smallest thing available to do content creation. You need a keyboard, usually a mouse, a large-enough monitor, and a reasonable amount of storage to do content creation. Tablets, phones, and I would even argue laptops, (certainly chromebooks) are output devices.

Re:Not Sure I Understand the Post-PC Concept

[jp10558]

I agree with tlhIngan above you. While much of what my Mother can do with a PC could be done with a tablet, there's a lot of edge cases that combine to really needing a PC. For instance, while Facebook / Scrabble probably would work better with a Tablet, how does she interact with her other devices?

That is, if she has a (general tablet), how does she

      * get the pictures off of her 4 yr old Digital Camera (The tablet doesn't hook up to the camera as a USB Host that I'm aware, nor does it take full size SD Cards - many don't take any cards).
      * How would she use her scanner for depositing checks to Ally bank (the mobile app claims to do this, but is very difficult to use with a Camera, at least for me)?
      * What about putting MP3s on a USB stick to play in her car?
      * Is there even TurboTax for a Tablet?
      * What about printing - the best I've seen is use a PC to run a special app that the tablet prints to.

those tasks aren't critical path, or even common.
So your customers don't do their taxes at home, don't use a digital camera (I guess you could use the tablet), use their tablet in the car for music?, don't ever print, and don't do online banking? Or are those tasks not critical path?

Now, my Dad, who has never used a computer and likes to drive in silence and go to the bank during the day, and has someone else do the taxes, well, he likes a tablet for audio books etc. But I think he's not at all a tech-savvy-but-not-developer sort of person. There's too many edge cases that by themselves can probably be disregarded, but together call out for most tech savvy users today to still want a general purpose computing device.

Re:Not Sure I Understand the Post-PC Concept

[Anonymous Coward]

The PC is not dead, just that "everyone" has one. Why does anyone want to buy a new PC every year or two?

The Apple iPad and Android devices give people what they need in a more palatable form factor.

W8 is a new concept, but it will take years for MS to obsolete the W7 market and introduce the W8 in it's place. It tries to be a PC and tablet at the same time.

People like W7. They were burned by Vista and don't want to go through that again. It will take several years for MS to win the confidence of the marketplace. They have a lot to leverage, but phasing out W7 for W8 will take 5 years.

And, why does anyone want to learn a new system for nth time from a company that continues marketing and engineering practices that continues to makes things complex? The answer is they don't.

Factor in that much of the user base is older, one gets the picture. MS has been providing complex systems for many years that have been incremental in value. There's more to life than learning the same thing over again, especially if it's a OS.

The iPad wasn't a new concept, just everyone has been waiting for a PC that was more of a note book than something that had to be on a desk. MS has a business model, get everyone to reinvest in a PC every three years. They have the best office suite, hands down, but I get tired of that reinvestment.

Life is not a PC. There was Byte magazine in the early days, an engineer's dream. PC Magazine came out and every month products were reviewed. It was a fashion show featuring electronic boards, fashion for nerds (ok, tech people). I stopped reading it and picked one up every year. Stopped reading it all together. Nothing really changed, besides, I got tired of the show.

When Jobs came back to Apple, he made a decision to market to the consumer: iPod, iPad and iPhone, they're all consumer devices, and provide Apple with the lion share of their revenue, and the Mac, it is the computer for the artist. The PC is the computer for business.

Jobs' made a decision years ago to make the computer easy to use, right out of the box. Bill Gates conquered the PC market place. Two different philosophies for two different industry leaders.

There will always be convergence and divergence between the two companies. The fashion show will go on. Engineers will still be engineers. Business will still be business.

Steve Jobs is dead. Bill Gates has moved into philanthropy. The PC is still relevant. So is the Mac. Android is on the rise. I don't even know the name of the guys that run Google. Life is more than computers.

WELL DUH !! 1970S ??

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course the 70s' vision has blurred to the point that the iPad betrays it !! This ain't your grandfather's Atari !! It is his Oldsmobile !!

DIY Education.

[Anonymous Coward]

Wasn't the Raspberry PI suppose to be the educational tool? Or was that the OLPC? So hard to tell.

Re:DIY Education.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Hey third world kids - us first world rich kids are going to give you laptops! Well, not real laptops, that might let you actually learn skills that will help you get out of poverty and better your life. They're these tinkertoy bullshit things that you won't really get much use out of... but they look so modern and plastic! And really, it'll help us feel good about ourselves for "doing something," mostly. But we'll console ourselves by telling the world that it's going to 'help you learn how to learn and give you access to the works of Shakespeare,' or some shit like that."

In essence, first world people misunderstand the needs and wants of third world people living in abject poverty, and give them gifts that demonstrate that misunderstanding. I know I'm shocked by this development - aren't you?

I, for one, can't wait to see the Open Source Refrigerator designed for use by native tribes living above the Arctic Circle! And I hear RMS is working on a new brand of super-absorbent white cotton gloves, just PERFECT for protecting your hands while eating ketchup popsicles.

Re:DIY Education.

[kullnd]

Wish I had mod points --- Why would you post this AC? It is spot on and correct - There is not many organizations that are actually doing anything in the 3rd world that will make a difference in the long term for even one person.

Betrayed?

[Dog-Cow]

What a stupid idea. The iPad was intended to be a portable screen for viewing content. Virtually every app (outside of games) is for viewing pre-generated content of some form or another. The iPad was never intended to be a "dynabook" or to co-opt the idea, so how can it be a betrayal?

I have an idea for Kay... build your own damn hardware and write your own damn software. Don't rely on publicly-traded, for-profit companies to execute your "vision".

Re:Betrayed?

[Motard]

Was following Snooki not a founding ideal of the dynabooks? Ooops, sorry.

Re:Betrayed?

[NatasRevol]

I have an idea for Kay... build your own damn hardware and write your own damn software. Don't rely on publicly-traded, for-profit companies to execute your "vision".

Seconded. Also, stop bitching that someone else didn't execute your vision.

Re:Betrayed?

[Sponge Bath]

stop bitching that someone else didn't execute your vision.

His complaints remind me of a Repo Man quote: "...and, yet I blame society."

Re:Betrayed?

[MacTO]

Alan Kay has been trying to implement his vision for decades through work with hardware and software projects. (Examples include Squeak and OLPC.)

Re:Betrayed?

[hondo77]

Seconded. Also, stop bitching that someone else didn't execute your vision.

It's pretty much what he's been doing for the last 20 years.

Re:Betrayed?

[Sez Zero]

Also, stop bitching that someone else didn't execute your vision.

Article could have been summarized with the following:

Idealist is upset at somewhat-related commercialized version of his idea.News at 11!

Re:Betrayed?

[amicusNYCL]

He's not "bitching" about anything. He was asked this question:

Do you agree that we now essentially have the Dynabook, as expressed in the three tiers of modern personal computing; the notebook, tablet and smartphone? If not, what critical features do you see missing from these? Have they delivered on the promise of improving education?

He responded by saying that no, we don't have a Dynabook, that the slim laptops are the closest thing to it, and that the ideals behind the iPad are not the ideals behind the Dynabook. He's answering the guy's question, which apparently he has been asked for the past 20 years.

Re:Betrayed?

[steveha]

He's not "bitching" about anything. He was asked this question

Mod parent up. The reporter asked him whether what we have now is basically the Dynabook, and he replied, in part:

For all media, the original intent was "symmetric authoring and consuming".

Isn't it crystal clear that this last and most important service is quite lacking in today's computing for the general public? Apple with the iPad and iPhone goes even further and does not allow children to download an Etoy made by another child somewhere in the world. This could not be farther from the original intentions of the entire ARPA-IPTO/PARC community in the '60s and '70s.

He didn't even use the word "betray" in any form.

Re:Betrayed?

[Anonymous Coward]

Squeak and OLPC

This sounds more like a nightmare, and I say this as someone that has been using Linux exclusively for over a decade.

Re:Betrayed?

[Wraithlyn]

Virtually every app (outside of games) is for viewing pre-generated content

I'm sorry but this is an increasingly unsupportable (yet oft repeated) claim. Maybe it was true for the first year or two after the iPad's release but it's certainly not any more. A quick scan on iTunes of "Top iPad Apps" (skipping games of course) shows virtually NONE of them are merely for consuming content.

Pages/Keynote/Numbers, various note taking and artistic apps, video/photography/editing, an INSANE number of professional grade music production apps (currently seeing a huge new surge thanks to Audiobus) by the likes of Korg/Moog/Steinberg, etc etc etc. There is an enormous diversity of creative apps for the iPad, and this will only continue to expand and mature.

Now... if you want to claim that the majority of iPad USAGE is for consuming content, fine... but that's a very different argument. And one that could be applied to conventional computers too... (are the majority of computer users really content creators? Or web surfers and YouTube/Netflix watchers?)

Re:Betrayed?

[Anonymous Coward]

Interesting the Xerox system used Icons as verbs rather than nouns as had become the standard with MacOS and Windows. With the iPad, icons are becoming verbs again. Most apps aren't full applications like what you expect on a desktop machine, but rather a function that does one job really well. To edit a photo or video may take several apps to get the job done for example since you run an app for a specific function and move on rather than navigate hundreds of menu options in a single app.

Locked Installs

[Nerdfest]

As you might expect, his problems with it is the major problem many have with iOS devices:

Apple with the iPad and iPhone goes even further and does not allow children to download an Etoy made by another child somewhere in the world.

The solution is obviously to stop buying devices you don't truly own, but it's difficult when many applications are targeted for that platform first.

Re:Locked Installs

[thoth]

The solution is obviously to stop buying devices you don't truly own, but it's difficult when many applications are targeted for that platform first.

So, Yeelong Lemote or nothing?

Re:WELL DUH !! 1970S ??

[Nerdfest]

Yeah ... 'cuz ... screw ideals. What losers those guys were.

Piano in every classroom

[jader3rd]

I love his idea of a piano in every classroom. Now we just need a way to get the music out of it.

Re:WELL DUH !! 1970S ??

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes those guys are losers. There was nothing successful that ever came out of PARC.

sold it all off

[CheshireDragon]

Funny thing is Xerox sold a lot of their stuff to Apple in the 70s.
Seems to me that Xerox got out of the market 40yrs ago and has no right to complain about its path now.

Re:sold it all off

[khallow]

This is a good point. How can you have "betrayal" as the journalist in the interview claims in the absence of any sort of obligation?

So. Fucking. What?

[Anonymous Coward]

What a self-important twit. Why the hell should his "vision" rule what Apple wants to sell 40 fucking years later?

I'm about as far from an Apple fanboi as anyone, but Jesus H. Fucking Christ that's lamer than a Thalidomide dachshund.

But that statement is incorrect

[SuperKendall]

Apple with the iPad and iPhone goes even further and does not allow children to download an Etoy made by another child somewhere in the world.

Even ignoring the fact that Android doesn't seem like it has any limitations that matter in this regard (and to me the question was more "do we have a dynabook yet" rather than "is the iPad a dynabook"), the statement is incorrect when applied to the iPad.

That's because you can share "eToys" within the context of an app. Codea for example, is an app for creating programs on the iPad - you can export code for a game you develop there, and send it to someone. That is in fact doing exactly what he said you cannot do - share an "eToy" you created.

Basically he has fallen into believing the myth that tablets are for consumption and not creation, ignoring a great lot of creation occurring all over.

Re:But that statement is incorrect

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple with the iPad and iPhone goes even further and does not allow children to download an Etoy made by another child somewhere in the world.

Even ignoring the fact that Android doesn't seem like it has any limitations that matter in this regard (and to me the question was more "do we have a dynabook yet" rather than "is the iPad a dynabook"), the statement is incorrect when applied to the iPad.

That's because you can share "eToys" within the context of an app. Codea for example, is an app for creating programs on the iPad - you can export code for a game you develop there, and send it to someone. That is in fact doing exactly what he said you cannot do - share an "eToy" you created.

Basically he has fallen into believing the myth that tablets are for consumption and not creation, ignoring a great lot of creation occurring all over.

Will Codea let me do so without "jailbreaking" and without an Internet connection? Can I send it over a wired cable or a wireless but not internet enabled wifi network? How about even just blue tooth?

If yes, then you win, if not, then no, you're still an Apple apologist.

Re:But that statement is incorrect

[SuperKendall]

Will Codea let me do so without "jailbreaking" and without an Internet connection?

Yes, with a computer and a USB stick.

If yes, then you win

I always win, because I only play when I've already made sure the odds are heavily in my favor. People could learn a lot from Vegas.

Re:But that statement is incorrect

[Anonymous Coward]

Nicely written. I, too, think that most people write off tablets as being for consumption only. Those people are, in fact, limited by their own imagination. There's no reason a tablet can't be used to create content. Saying that they can't be used for anything but consumption is the same displays the same narrowness with which the first computers were viewed. Most scientists at that time could never imagine that a computer could be used for anything other than calculating statistics. Heck, when I was a kid in the 1970s we never imagined anything like Pong.

Re:But that statement is incorrect

[Anonymous Coward]

I always win, because I only play when I've already made sure the odds are heavily in my favor. People could learn a lot from Vegas.

And this is what separates People of Ability from, well, you know...

Re:But that statement is incorrect

[Anonymous Coward]

Calling a tablet a creation tool is like cutting off a painter's hands and then letting him create his next masterpiece.

Re:But that statement is incorrect

[SuperKendall]

Part of stacking the odds is having an overwhelming level of skill and knowledge.

Yourself? Obviously, not so much. You can't even figure out how to log in after all. Pretty much a mouth-breather it would seem, probably wandered in from Reddit after smoking some weed. Go back to the sandbox kid where you're as big a deal as you think you are.

Re:But that statement is incorrect

[Anonymous Coward]

GGGP anon here, not the rude GP anon.

Thanks for the reply, but what I've seen suggests you're omitting key details. See here:
http://www.philmug.ph/forum/f143/ipad-can-access-usb-flash-drive-without-hack-66056/

While the title is "without hack" it... requires a jailbreak hack. Did you have some other solution?

My understanding is that I can't just plug in a usb stick, even with the official camera adapter, and be able to freely copy files on and off.

If I can take 2 new ipads with codea, is there a way to beam a file from one to the other without leaving the local network? Even a usb stick sneakernet would be fine, but only if the whole jailbreaking thing isn't required. Traveling at sea on a sub for example, the whole Apple iCloud/sync over our gateways thing just doesn't cut it.

Re:But that statement is incorrect

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmmm, looks like the answer is no, Apple doesn't want you to be able to do that.
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1543618

Tricks with gaming power circuits and using a hub with multiple sticks to bypass Apples firmware locks is not, in my opinion, a viable plan. Even if they work today, they may break if you ever update in the future. If I want to go down the rabbit hole and hack solutions, I can do that with linux/android stuff.

Re:But that statement is incorrect

[shutdown -p now]

That's because you can share "eToys" within the context of an app. Codea for example, is an app for creating programs on the iPad - you can export code for a game you develop there, and send it to someone.

Unless that changed very recently, you can't actually, specifically because Apple cracked down on them for allowing users to run downloaded code. This is the same as Pythonista and other similar projects. Apple's policy on that matters is that you can have interpreters, but they must only run code that is input by the user. So the only option for code sharing is copy/paste.

Of Course...

[ambidextroustech]

Of course it betrays his vision. The reality is is that the market is a battle field, and to have a monopoly in the education sector, you'd better not be making much bank off of it. Are either Apple, Inc. or Microsoft Corp. non-profit? No. The next contender could be Google, Inc. but they're not non-profit. Last time I looked at the trading tickers, Google was making more bank than Microsoft.

The Raspberry Pi Foundation is the only one that could deliver on his vision, but it's based in the UK and it's for the UK.

This is the USA. Do we make much sense anymore?

Re:Of Course...

[ChrisMaple]

Computers should be the first choice for education. Cheap software, even freeware, should exist to provide almost the entire pre-college education. There's no excuse for the continued existence of mass schools, either public or private.

Humans move forward in reliability and access

[SuperKendall]

Sometimes I wonder why we are so quick to discard the PC.

Because the PC is a nightmare in terms of reliability. Here I am using PC in the generic sense; this statement applied not just to Windows but also OS X or Linux or any desktop app compared to a tablet. In every case they are much harder for people to keep running well over time.

The "Post PC" era is a term probably overused at this point but at the core it basically means simply: computers that non-technical users can have over time without someone to help them maintain.

More technical users see this as limiting, but non-technical users see the ability to not rely on technical people to help them as freeing.

And it's not like PC's, or anything like them, will ever vanish. Those threatened by a world where normal people can use a computer too should just chill out and be happy for them.

Re:Humans move forward in reliability and access

[Omestes]

computers that non-technical users can have over time without someone to help them maintain.

This disturbs me, personally. Your statement is synonymous with "disposable". Tablets is a way to force PCs to use the cell-phone model of updates and lifespan; you use it for a year or two and ditch it for a better one because it is no longer supported. ASUS did this with the first Transformer, they dropped all support for it in under 2 years, meaning the only recourse a user has is confusing, and unstable community updates. Even in Android land, the vendor now has too much control over devices.

Re:Humans move forward in reliability and access

[Anonymous Coward]

Those threatened by a world where normal people can use a computer too should just chill out and be happy for them.

Nice strawman, fanboi!

Re:Humans move forward in reliability and access

[DarkOx]

More technical users see this as limiting, but non-technical users see the ability to not rely on technical people to help them as freeing.

And those people are buying into the lie the powerful have told since the start of time. Its the very same lie used by every Marxist, would be autocrat, feudal lord, etc; just in a slightly less ambitious domain restricted form. Sure if you choose to rely on someone else you are 'freed' from having to worry about certain things but you are forever bent under their rod.

Using a managed platform like IOS might 'free' from having to learn to maintain an un-managed platform yourself but you can NEVER do anything outside of what apple says you can. Meanwhile they never truly relied on the "technical people to help them" they chose to hire them or beg that help, but were never prevented from cracking a book, reading man page or help file, perhaps doing a little Googling and solving their own problems. There is a big difference between not doing the work yourself because you don't want to or don't want to learn to do it, and someone else preventing you from doing it.

Just like people who don't change their own oil. Nothing wrong with having it done for you if your time is valuable probably makes sense for many. I hope you'd have enough sense to object if you needed a special key to turn the drain plug retained by the dealer and that any attempts to defeat the lock would void your warranty and exclude you from any future deal service paid or otherwise. That is what we are talking about here. It really is very insidious.

Re:Humans move forward in reliability and access

[shutdown -p now]

The "Post PC" era is a term probably overused at this point but at the core it basically means simply: computers that non-technical users can have over time without someone to help them maintain.

It's all well and good, but why does it seem to be doing so at the cost of functionality (even the kind that's useful to casual users)? Why does my mom's iPad won't let her browse files on a USB stick, or play video from a DVD? And these are actual, real world scenarios that she asked for (and for which she has to keep a laptop around), not some obscure geek thing.

Thank you.

[Anonymous Coward]

Spot-on post about bullshit efforts like OLPC.

Most brilliant part lost in noise over iPad

[SuperKendall]

In the middle of the interview is the most brilliant thought of the whole article:

One way to think of all of these organizations is to realize that if they require a charismatic leader who will shoot people in the knees when needed, then the corporate organization and process is a failure. It means no group can come up with a good decision and make it stick just because it is a good idea. All the companies Iâ(TM)ve worked for have this deep problem of devolving to something like the hunting and gathering cultures of 100,000 years ago. If businesses could find a way to invent âoeagricultureâ we could put the world back together and all would prosper.

This is exactly right. Modern companies are NOT modern companies, they are generally companies as companies have always been. I think in smaller companies we are seeing experiments that show tiny examples of truly different ways to run a company, but I don't know of any that have been able to scale that to thousands of people yet.

Re:Most brilliant part lost in noise over iPad

[theurge14]

One way to think of all of these organizations is to realize that if they require a charismatic leader who will shoot people in the knees when needed, then the corporate organization and process is a failure. It means no group can come up with a good decision and make it stick just because it is a good idea

On the contrary, without a leader to challenge people by setting the bar high, organizations may run with ideas that should've been shot down, and even if the idea has some merit there might not be enough incentive to improve upon it.

Re:Most brilliant part lost in noise over iPad

[olau]

Valve Corporation has an interesting setup.

Prompted by your observation, I read the interview and have to agree it was very interesting. Alan Kay is obviously thinking completely different from the crowd.

Re:Most brilliant part lost in noise over iPad

[Princeofcups]

This is exactly right. Modern companies are NOT modern companies, they are generally companies as companies have always been. I think in smaller companies we are seeing experiments that show tiny examples of truly different ways to run a company, but I don't know of any that have been able to scale that to thousands of people yet.

Most small company plans are to run up the value as quickly as they can, and then sell out to a bigger company, rinse and repeat. Even those that go public see that only as an intermediate step. Very few become stable companies selling their own home-grown products. Apple was one of those companies, although they've had to become just like any other old style company to get there and stay there.

Re:Most brilliant part lost in noise over iPad

[Anonymous Coward]

In the middle of the interview is the most brilliant thought of the whole article:

One way to think of all of these organizations is to realize that if they require a charismatic leader who will shoot people in the knees when needed, then the corporate organization and process is a failure. It means no group can come up with a good decision and make it stick just because it is a good idea. All the companies Iâ(TM)ve worked for have this deep problem of devolving to something like the hunting and gathering cultures of 100,000 years ago. If businesses could find a way to invent âoeagricultureâ we could put the world back together and all would prosper.

This is exactly right. Modern companies are NOT modern companies, they are generally companies as companies have always been. I think in smaller companies we are seeing experiments that show tiny examples of truly different ways to run a company, but I don't know of any that have been able to scale that to thousands of people yet.

Brilliant?! More like idealist crap.

"if they require a charismatic leader who will shoot people in the knees when needed, then the corporate organization and process is a failure."

You know what organizations don't need charismatic leaders to keep churning? Giant bureaucracies. I would rather have a failure like Apple than any other giant bureaucracy, at least Apple actually built and sold something useful.

"It means no group can come up with a good decision and make it stick just because it is a good idea."

Was ANY group made up of human beings EVER able to do that?

"All the companies Iâ(TM)ve worked for have this deep problem of devolving to something like the hunting and gathering cultures of 100,000 years ago. If businesses could find a way to invent âoeagricultureâ we could put the world back together and all would prosper"

Yeah, and if wishes were wings, pigs could fly. So why don't Alan Kay, or YOU, go ahead and start the business to "invent agriculture"? Why don't I see the brilliant, rising star that was the Kay's company selling me great products? Oh, of course not, it is much easier to laments other peoples' failure than to actually DO it.

I will buy something that works great, but betrayed every "vision" of every idealist out there, than sitting idle looking forward to the ideal product that never comes.

Re:Most brilliant part lost in noise over iPad

[Anonymous Coward]

Notwithstanding your probably intentional nod to pop culture, "different" is not and never will be an adverb.

News Flash

[93 Escort Wagon]

Tonight's top story: An old guy complains that the future doesn't match what his vision of the future was back when he was young.

This, and the rest of the news, coming up at 11.

Re:News Flash

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh thank God someone said this.

Are we going to have to listen to 20 years of George Lucas armchair quarterbacking what comes next for Star Wars?

Seriously, Gene Roddenberry (if he were alive today) would have more relevant things to say about technology.

I just don't understand why we keep listening to irrelevant people like Steve Wozniak, Lindsay Lohan and Karl Rove?

Re:News Flash

[Anonymous Coward]

Followup story: young person complains about old guys "not getting it", and wishes them to get out of the way for the next generation "that knows best".

Hate comes easy.

Re:News Flash

[tepples]

Initially, Apple rejected anything that would even remotely resemble Codea.

And now they don't.

What caused Apple to have a change of heart about what it admits to the App Store?

Re:News Flash

[Anonymous Coward]

Tonight's top story: An old guy complains that the future doesn't match what his vision of the future was back when he was young.

This, and the rest of the news, coming up at 11.

You wrote that on an interface dreamed up by that old guy. I hope you were just being funny because if you're serious your knowledge of computing is so lacking that you need to hand in your geek card right now.

A PC offers more room to grow

[tepples]

Basic users who have zero need for the features of a PC.

A PC offers more room to grow. Eventually a basic user is likely to become no longer a basic user and will need to spend a significant chunk of change to upgrade from only a tablet to a tablet and a PC. If this no-longer-basic user is a child under legal working age who has been using a tablet that he had received as a gift, it becomes even more difficult to find the money to buy even a used PC. Owning only an iPad is more likely to convince the user that the limits of only an iPad are reasonable, just as a lot of American kids who owned only a game console and not a PC during the third, fourth, and fifth console generations never got the chance to try their hand at learning what makes a game tick by coding a simple game themselves.

Re:A PC offers more room to grow

[Anonymous Coward]

Eventually a basic user is likely to become no longer a basic user

No, they're really not "likely" to become more than a basic user. The standard tasks that most people use their home computer for - browsing the web, sending emails, watching a video, etc. - are not likely to suddenly prompt those people to decide that they need to hack the Linux kernel.

just as a lot of American kids who owned only a game console and not a PC during the third, fourth, and fifth console generations never got the chance to try their hand at learning what makes a game tick by coding a simple game themselves.

Why do you thick fucks make the assumption that this is something MOST people would want to do? There's a reason most of us grew up as social outcasts: OUR INTERESTS ARE NOT SHARED BY THE VAST - OVERWHELMING - MAJORITY OF THE OTHER PEOPLE AROUND US. Playing a game leads to "I'm gonna program my own game" about as often as driving a car leads to "vehicular homicide." Stop projecting your interests on the rest of the population - I can guarantee you that they're not shared by the vast majority of the people you're assuming will magically become Linux kernel hackers if you just hand them a computer with a bash shell on it.

As far as "upgrading" a tablet? Buy a $30 bluetooth keyboard, and you've got yourself a netbook. I just saved you two grand - you're welcome.

Re:A PC offers more room to grow

[Specter]

You're living in a very small world and there are very few people who live there with you. (Despite this post, I'm one of them btw.) People who live in the rest of the world, and that's almost everyone, are never going to code up a game themselves. The idea isn't even going to cross their mind. Why? Because they don't care.

They just want something that works. They own technology to accomplish a task, not for the sake of owning the technology. They want to take a picture, send an email, read a web page, or play a game and they don't care in the slightest how many Mega-pixel-fps-giga-tdp widgets 2.0 this thing has over that thing. This is why the iPad (and the iPhone) is so popular; it gets out of the way and let's people do what they want to do without having to know or care how it happens.

If the device in their hand does what they want it to do then there is no 'upgrade' (I'd argue: downgrade) path to a PC. The personal computer as you and I know it will die a much deserved death.

You care. I care. We are, however, a shrinking minority.

Re:A PC offers more room to grow

[tepples]

Playing a game leads to "I'm gonna program my own game" about as often as driving a car leads to "vehicular homicide."

You assert that it does. I disagree with your assertion but am willing to evaluate evidence that you present.

As far as "upgrading" a tablet? Buy a $30 bluetooth keyboard, and you've got yourself a netbook.

I run IDLE, a Python programming environment, on my Dell Inspiron mini 1012 netbook. Does the iPad have an app for that?

Re:A PC offers more room to grow

[Anonymous Coward]

Posting AC to preserve mods. I don't think your doom and gloom scenarios are realistic. As long as there is a need for computing horsepower, be it GIS, application development, or any one of a number of other specialized fields, there will be a need for personal computers. I love my Nexus 7, I read comics on it, administer my Linux servers, control my XBMC host, and do a lot of web surfing on it. But when I get home and I need to work, I fire up my i7 workstation running Debian, its three 24" monitors, its responsive 'clicky' keyboard (my wife HATES that), and its 16GB of RAM. For guys like us, there will always be Newegg, Tiger, or (if you're lucky enough to live near one) Frys.

Re:A PC offers more room to grow

[Anonymous Coward]

You're living in a very small world and there are very few people who live there with you.

Most of us here are perfectly OK with that.

I grew up using computers in the 80s when next to no one knew about the things outside of school.

I fondly remember BBSing and the pre-web Internet of the early 90s when there was no such thing as eternal September.

The wave of the populous was only "with me" by purest of chance and coincidence in the first place, but I remember a time when that was not at all so, and fully expect to see those times again.

Re:A PC offers more room to grow

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, I almost agree with you. However, one thing to thing of is the explosion of content creation that has happened in the past 10 years. We've got tons of people who are doing things like making YouTube videos, crafting goods and selling them on Etsy, or composing some music and throwing it up on Bandcamp. Maybe people aren't as uncreative and drone like as you think. Everyone is becoming a content creator nowadays and a PC is a great tool to assist with that.

Re:A PC offers more room to grow

[MoneyT]

I run IDLE, a Python programming environment, on my Dell Inspiron mini 1012 netbook. Does the iPad have an app for that?

Yes, actually: http://pythonforios.com/

Re:A PC offers more room to grow

[Anonymous Coward]

I run IDLE, a Python programming environment, on my Dell Inspiron mini 1012 netbook. Does the iPad have an app for that?

http://pythonforios.com/

Re:A PC offers more room to grow

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you're one of the thick fucks he's talking about. The point is that the majority of the people here at /. are fucking rejects who don't understand why everyone doesn't want to hack the Gibson or whatever retarded thing is in nerd vogue this week. Most people don't need or want to fucking run any goddamned programing environment. Most people want to look at fucking cats, send fucking emails, and watch fucking...er...fucking. That is all. You're a fucking social reject. I am, and the GP is as well, but at least we have the fucking sense to know that most of the fucking people in this fucking world don't give a flying rats ass about your fucking programming environment.

You know what leads to vehicular manslaughter? Fuckwits like you.

Re:A PC offers more room to grow

[Anonymous Coward]

As far as "upgrading" a tablet? Buy a $30 bluetooth keyboard, and you've got yourself a netbook.

I run IDLE, a Python programming environment, on my Dell Inspiron mini 1012 netbook. Does the iPad have an app for that?

You didn't read a word of the GP, did you?

If you did, how many percent of the total number of computer users would ever program Python? How many percent of the netbook users? How many percent of the tablet-only users?

But if you want to know, yes, you can program and run Python on a iPad.

Re:A PC offers more room to grow

[Anonymous Coward]

Eventually a basic user is likely to become no longer a basic use

That's like saying basic TV viewers will eventually want to produce their own TV shows. We have decades of data on this; they won't.

Re:A PC offers more room to grow

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, which you'd know if your head weren't up your ass trying to prove your superiority.

Re:A PC offers more room to grow

[Chris Mattern]

Playing a game leads to "I'm gonna program my own game" about as often as driving a car leads to "vehicular homicide."

I would submit that "as often as driving a car leads to 'I'm gonna build my own car'" would be more accurate as well as more pleasant.

Re:A PC offers more room to grow

[Anonymous Coward]

They see me trollin', they hatin'.....

Re:A PC offers more room to grow

[Anonymous Coward]

You know what leads to vehicular manslaughter? Fuckwits like you.

I would say your uncontrollable rage is the more likely culprit.

Re:A PC offers more room to grow

[Anonymous Coward]

again, this is only true for IOS devices, due to apple's "Users should be treated like toddlers" approach. Android, you are allowed to get as dirty as you wish with it's baked in Linux. Hell, you can even get full x11 and virtual instances going right now with apps in the Play store.

The same way I learned the basics of computing will be the same way the upcoming generation will, by doing stuff and customizing till they get fed up with the inherent limitations and attempt to make their own. Its just that they will start with angry birds instead of mario and your first computer will be about the size of a picture book instead of being a 50 pound monstrosity sitting on your dad's desk.

Old nerds are falling into the same trap that every other older generation runs into, that the status quo is changing and they are no longer the target market.

Re:A PC offers more room to grow

[Anonymous Coward]

You assert that it does. I disagree with your assertion but am willing to evaluate evidence that you present.

Self-evident:
How many millions of copies of games are sold around the world? Limit it to PC games, if you wish. Now, how many game developers are there?

How many millions of cars are on the roads all over the world? Limit to private passenger vehicles, if you wish. Now, how many people are victims of vehicular homicide?

If you'd like to share details about the existence of millions of hidden game developers who have never written a game or produced a game, or a pandemic of vehicular homicides, I'm perfectly happy to entertain your evidence.

I run IDLE, a Python programming environment, on my Dell Inspiron mini 1012 netbook. Does the iPad have an app for that?

Well, yes. If you want a more general text editor similar to TextMate or Notepad++, there's also Textastic. Hell, you can even run vim on your iPad, if you really like vi.

Why is it that the real ignorant twits are the ones who shitting the loudest opinions all over this thread?

Re:A PC offers more room to grow

[Anonymous Coward]

THIS THIS THIS.

good to known i'm not the only same one on slashdot. seriously, not many people give a fuck about computers themselves. normal people want to DO something in particular, and might use a computer to do it. they don't want to learn about computers just for the hell of it because they have better things to do.

there's nothing wrong with this. it's the same reason i haven't learned all the gory details of the settings on my espresso coffee maker. i know how to make a normal cup of coffee, and that's all i need. it's not "sad" that i never learned how to use the timer or program the thing, because I DON'T GIVE A FUCK.

that's why the ipad is so successful.

Re:A PC offers more room to grow

[Hatta]

Playing a game leads to "I'm gonna program my own game" about as often as driving a car leads to "vehicular homicide."

We grew up in the 80s. During the 80s it was very common for a kid playing 8 bit games on an 8 bit PC to try his hand at making his own. And many of them were as good as many games published commercially.

Is it really unreasonable to want kids today to at least have that opportunity? Shouldn't we at least give them the tools and some encouragement? If they don't use them, that's their choice. But it should be their choice and not foisted on them by their parents choice of platform. Modern technology should mean more opportunities to learn and create, not fewer.

Re:A PC offers more room to grow

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, I have uncontrollable rage at fuckwits. Amazing how that works, eh?

Re:A PC offers more room to grow

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, actually it does!
I have it on both my iPhone and my iPad.

Re:A PC offers more room to grow

[Anonymous Coward]

Ignorant twits shit the loudest on everything. Look at Christianity in general.

Re:A PC offers more room to grow

[Anonymous Coward]

BULLSHIT. You are *assuming* that it was "common" for kids to try programming their own games on a computer because you did it, and probably knew a couple kids with computers who tried it too.

I grew up in the 80's too. I had a TI-99 4A that I learned to program in BASIC on. I also was able to play around with a C64, early Apple II/IIe/etc, early Macs, and numerous 8086, 286, 386, and 486 models, as well. (Helped to have an older brother who was an electrical engineer). It was pretty uncommon for a kid to have a computer to begin with in the early 80's, and not all *that* common even in the late 80's, unless you happened to be in an upper class / upper middle class family.

We were in the overwhelming MINORITY of children who had access to a PC "whenver we wanted" during those years, and it's very likely that we were also in the minority SOLELY among the children who had access to any sort of PC. Nintendo and Sega consoles were the much more common way for kids to play games.

The moral of the story? The past wasn't as great as you remember it, and your impression of it has been vastly skewed by the fact that you assume your own experiences are universal.

As for today - if parents have enough money to buy their kid an iPad, they have enough money to buy a fucking Mac mini, or a windows laptop. on which the kid can program to his heart's content. The demise of children's curiosity and creativeness has been greatly exaggerated, and the iPad isn't responsible for what little decline it may have seen.

Re:A PC offers more room to grow

[Anonymous Coward]

Playing a game leads to "I'm gonna program my own game" about as often as driving a car leads to "vehicular homicide."

Maybe not vehicular homicide, but driving a car does lead to, "I'm gonna take my car apart and see how it works."

Re:A PC offers more room to grow

[Anonymous Coward]

Playing a game leads to "I'm gonna program my own game" about as often as driving a car leads to "vehicular homicide."

You assert that it does. I disagree with your assertion but am willing to evaluate evidence that you present.

As far as "upgrading" a tablet? Buy a $30 bluetooth keyboard, and you've got yourself a netbook.

I run IDLE, a Python programming environment, on my Dell Inspiron mini 1012 netbook. Does the iPad have an app for that?

Google is your friend, but the short answer is it does have Python. Also, Lua, but not Ruby, not Haskell, not Perl but a CPAN reference is there. A little more digging... it can do Javascript and Processing, and a game maker based on Lua again.

Re:A PC offers more room to grow

[mattack2]

I was going to say the same thing, even though I mostly agree with his sentiment.

Though a possibly even better analogy would be "as often as driving a car leads to 'modding my own car'", at least as far as open source software. I presume even most open source programmers don't write huge apps mostly from scratch, they often probably add a feature or fix a bug in an existing app -- sort of like modding an existing car.

Re:A PC offers more room to grow

[Anonymous Coward]

I have to agree with you.
When I was younger I played games, and sometimes wondered how it all worked.
But it was just for a split second before I went on playing my games.
I never even knew how to write a single line of code before I went to the university.
Not even a VBA macro for excel.

Re:A PC offers more room to grow

[mattack2]

Many kid written games were as good as the commercial games?!

Even making a Space Invaders-like game is hard (and was even harder then comparatively).. Not to mention Ultima, Wizardy, etc.

Re:A PC offers more room to grow

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do you thick fucks make the assumption that this is something MOST people would want to do? There's a reason most of us grew up as social outcasts: OUR INTERESTS ARE NOT SHARED BY THE VAST - OVERWHELMING - MAJORITY OF THE OTHER PEOPLE AROUND US. Playing a game leads to "I'm gonna program my own game" about as often as driving a car leads to "vehicular homicide." Stop projecting your interests on the rest of the population - I can guarantee you that they're not shared by the vast majority of the people you're assuming will magically become Linux kernel hackers if you just hand them a computer with a bash shell on it.

I look at it more like this. In the 80s, 90s, 00s millions of families owned computers. Some percentage of those people became programmers/engineers because they could tinker with the computer. iPad does not allow programming or tinkering so if most kids/families opt for only iPad (no computer) lots of them won't be exposed to even the opportunity to program.

That's the worry. Note that's specifically about iOS, not tablets in general.

If that's not clear lets make up some numbers. Let's assume 20% of kids had computers in 2005. Let's assume in now 10% of kids have a computer and 10% have an iPad. That means 10% less kids with even the chance to be exposed to programming. Out of those kids maybe only 2 out of 100 would be interested in programming but if they have an iPad they may not even know such a possibility even exists.

Re:A PC offers more room to grow

[guy5000]

Here are my counter examples. I write books or articles I need a keyboard or more likely a real computer. I take photo for even 10% of my job I need a computer with photoshop etc. I edit video even at the level of simple cutting I need a computer. I troubleshoot machinery with hardware interfaces I need a computer. I am building a $20,000 custom piece of lab equipment I need a computer. The end user will not accept any other device because they want to run their own software. I am an accountant with large data sets I need a real computer. I do research and need to access data not in an "app" I need a real computer. I am a lawyer and need to write documents and store confidential client information. I need local storage and that needs to be connected to a real computer

Re:A PC offers more room to grow

[Anonymous Coward]

Too bad you posted as Anonymous. Excellent post.

Re:A PC offers more room to grow

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you think the majority of the population have a need for an app like that? The AC is correct, you are projecting your view and generalizing it to the rest of the population. Here's me doing the same to you. My wife was a standard PC user before there were iPads. Nowadays, she hardly uses the PC (she only use it to sync). Everything else she could do on the iPad (email, web browsing, etc). I don't see how your example of the user need to "grow" from a basic user applies. Now what makes your example representative of the entire human population over mine?

Re:A PC offers more room to grow

[tepples]

Do you think the majority of the population have a need for an app like that?

Just because 51 percent don't need it doesn't mean nobody needs it.

Lol

[TheSkepticalOptimist]

Just like society fails to (thankfully) live up to expectations set 2000 years ago in the bible.

I mean really, we are supposed to adhere to a 40 year old vision of the future? I mean, where is they Dynabook today? Yes, that's right, its back in history where it belongs.

Also Apple nearly went bankrupt several times back in the day. Obviously the original vision failed to sustain both Xerox (as an innovative company today) AND Apple until Steve Jobs had another vision for the future.

If you have a vision that fails, then you failed to deliver your vision, it's nobody else's fault.

Re:Bing!

[cyber-vandal]

I'm typing this on a Linux Mint netbook with a Galaxy Note 2 next to me whilst watching a TV show on my PS3 and I have an iMac upstairs. Fanboy I am not.

Provisioning

[tepples]

by default you can't even install something your friend made who's sitting right next to you

Your friend with a Mac and an iOS developer license can provision several dozen testing devices on his developer account, including yours.

Re:Provisioning

[Nerdfest]

Doesn't the fact that you need a developer 'license' tweak something in your mind about the DynaBook ideals?

Re:Provisioning

[Trepidity]

And also a regular computer!

Re:Provisioning

[Anonymous Coward]

Your friend with a Mac and an iOS developer license can provision several dozen testing devices on his developer account, including yours.

Sure, for the low low price of $99 per year. Every year. For the right to load software onto the device you own.

Re:Provisioning

[ah.clem]

And also a regular computer!

Touche'!

Re:Provisioning

[gnasher719]

Doesn't the fact that you need a developer 'license' tweak something in your mind about the DynaBook ideals?

Who gives a damn about "DynaBook ideals"? I mean seriously, who gives a damn? It's similar to "free" software: A few people are strongly for it, the huge majority doesn't care one bit, and very few people are against it, because who cares? But because of this distribution, the people who care and open their mouths are all for it, which then gives a totally wrong impression of the actual situation. And the real situation is that very, very few people care. And my grandchildren as well as my computer-phobic friends and relatives are very happy indeed with their iPads, and they don't care about "DynaBook ideals" one bit. Alan Kaye can play with whatever he wants to play with according to them, but he better not dare taking their iPads away.

Re:Provisioning

[tepples]

As I understand it, it's not $99 per year per device, as Microsoft tried with Xbox 360 and Windows Phone 7, but $99 per year for the entire set of devices under your provisioning quota. So your friend with the Mac would be paying for the developer license, not you.

Re:Provisioning

[poetmatt]

which is explicitly and entirely unacceptable. You should not need a developer license (permission from apple) to do anything on your iDevice. That is exactly the problem.

Re:Provisioning

[Wookact]

You are RIGHT!
I mean it is the exact ideals talked about in the article, just a few small changes.
You must have a developers license.
You must have another computer. (Of course one made by Apple)
You may only provision it to a limited number of users, unless you get it INTO the store.
To get it into the store, it must pass checks to ensure you are not stealing business from Apple, and may be rejected for any or no reason.

/sarc

Re:Provisioning

[Anonymous Coward]

Honestly, it's not that much. You're right, it is $99/year (plus sales tax). But that's not much to ask. If you're in the business of making software, you can probably afford that. The computer you're using for development costs far more anyway. And the $99 goes toward supporting Apple's servers and infrastructure.

Re:Provisioning

[Anonymous Coward]

You are correct. $99 (plus sales tax) for the developer license. You can provision up to 100 devices per year. The receiver does not need to pay anything to try out your software. That's $1 per seat. Not much to ask. Especially considering you can develop any number of programs with that $99 developer license.

Re:Provisioning

[Anonymous Coward]

That is your opinion. It may be unacceptable to you. But considering the hundreds of thousands of developers who have already written apps, they prove is actually isn't unacceptable in the marketplace. Frankly, I'm glad that Apple charges a fee — and you should be too. If they didn't, then every junior high school kid would be able to submit their crappy school project and clog up the App Store with garbage. Apple has to pay people to review the apps, you know!

Re:Provisioning

[poetmatt]

Absolutely and entirely incorrect. The quality of the applications has no correlation whatsoever to whether or not there is a fee associated with access. That argument has been debunked a million times.

Meanwhile, there's a reason F/OSS exists, and it is to run exactly counter to this issue. How apple can get away with these restrictions is literally the summation of the problems with Apple.

Re:Provisioning

[BasilBrush]

Says who? Is this a law? Was it on tablets delivered by Moses? Or is it just a personal preference of poetmatt. A requirement that is completely and fully satisfied by poetmatt not buying an iOS device.

As long as people are free to chose whatever product they want, there is no problem. Stop trying to enforce your desires on people who have different requirements.

There is no problem. It's entirely unrealistic for you to like every product on the market. And it's fucking insane to require that every product matches your preferences.

Re:Provisioning

[BasilBrush]

The quality of the applications has no correlation whatsoever to whether or not there is a fee associated with access. That argument has been debunked a million times.

Show me a single time it's been "debunked".

Meanwhile, there's a reason F/OSS exists

There's a reason Islamic fundamentalism exists. That doesn't make it a good thing.

Re:Provisioning

[Anonymous Coward]

which is explicitly and entirely unacceptable. You should not need a developer license (permission from apple) to do anything on your iDevice. That is exactly the problem.

You can do anything you want on your iDevice, even resort to a soldering gun.

You meant you want it to work a particular way in which it doesn't. If a piece of hardware doesn't work a certain way, people understand, it's a "physical" limitation. If a piece of software doesn't work a particular way, a bunch of man-children take up arms against its "artificial" limitations as if everything else is in the world is pushed to the very limits of materials science.

Re:Provisioning

[poetmatt]

I'm enforcing my desires on people? yeah, sure, that must be it. It's not like Stallman has anything to say about the matter, right?

It's not about what I like or don't like, or my preferences. This is what's called you being an ad hominem lazy troll, Basil.

Re:Provisioning

[poetmatt]

expecting freedom of choice and not tolerating people taking one away isn't fundamentalism. It's called not being ignorant. If you think that's islamic fundamentalism, you should look in the mirror.

Re:Provisioning

[BasilBrush]

I'm enforcing my desires on people? yeah, sure, that must be it. It's not like Stallman has anything to say about the matter, right?

Just because a douch-bag like RMS shares your desires, still doesn't give you the right to dictate other people's product choices.

Re:Provisioning

[BasilBrush]

So not a single example of it being debunked then. Thought not.

And yes, you are trying to take people's freedom of choice away. Lots of people choose proprietary products such as Apple's iPhone, amongst other things because of the security of a closed system. And you are trying to take that away.

Yes the Islamic Fundamentalism thing fits well. They too talk about freedom, but actually want to make other people live according to their particular principles. Thankfully, your lot haven't become violent about it... yet.

Re:Provisioning

[poetmatt]

how or why is RMS a douchebag? For being a: correct and b: not stupid?

go troll someone else.

Re:Provisioning

[BasilBrush]

In much the same way that a fundamentalist imam is a douche-bag. Because he denounces everyone who doesn't subscribe to his religion, and every thing that his religion doesn't like. No matter how reasonable those people and things otherwise are.

May as well give it up.

[sidragon.net]

These people are trapped by their own make-believe assumptions about the technology, refuse to acknowledge that apps like Codea exist, and are convinced that using an Apple product somehow takes away their freedom. What freedom? Oh, you know, that freedom that lets you go in and modify the kernel source code to suit your own needs. Or that freedom to use whatever software you like. Or to create new content. Yeah, Apple totally destroys all that and keeps kids from learning! The iPad sucks! Fuck Apple! I want my freedom!

Re:May as well give it up.

[Anonymous Coward]

And you know what? My microwave sucks because I can't install any software on it that I want. So does my dishwasher! It's totally locked down. It's freedom-stealing crap, forced on me by The Man!

Oh boy.

So glad I left this open source zealot bullshit in the past. The computer isn't some magical gateway into a life where I don't weigh 300 pounds and live in my mom's basement--as a virgin at 37. A computer is a fucking appliance.

Re:May as well give it up.

[Anonymous Coward]

You really think people are going to be able to make great programs with Codea?

Re:May as well give it up.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry that being a 300 pounds 37-yo virgin makes you so mad bro.

You mean wardriving?

[tepples]

My application is a wireless network monitoring tool, which my understanding is that they are totally banned.

BasilBrush and other iOS advocates on Slashdot are under the impression that nobody needs wireless network monitoring tools. Wireless network monitoring tools are primarily useful for intruders trying to enter someone else's network without permission.

Re:You mean wardriving?

[h4rr4r]

Tepples, I think you mean they believe this.

Wireless network monitoring tools are primary useful to those who deploy, secure and integrate wireless networks. It is very handy to be able to see at a customers site that his wireless speeds suffer because all this neighbors are on the same channel.

Re:You mean wardriving?

[Tough Love]

Basilbrush posted eight times to this thread. You know what happens when somebody turns on the light in a roach infested house? Roaches sitting all over the floor suddenly scuttle away in all directions and disappear so fast you might not be sure they were really there. A post like this one is the reverse: all the Apple roaches suddenly scuttle out from their hiding places into the middle of the room and sit there acting roachlike, basking in their own roachness. After a while the roach smell becomes unbearable so normal people leave.

Re:You mean wardriving?

[Anonymous Coward]

BasilBrush is not an "iOS advocate", he's an Apple shill, or at best a fanboi. There's not a single post of him on any topic even remotely relevant to Apple that does not whitewash what the company is doing, even when it's obvious crap. And if you try to actually discuss it with him meaningfully, once the evidence is not in his favor, he immediately resorts to name calling and random insults.

Well... duh...

[Anonymous Coward]

That's why steve jobs is burning in hell..

He had the chance and the tools to change computing for the better. To improve the world in a major way.

Instead he turned out to be yet another a crazy money grubbing asshole who sold the world disposable plastic crap made by slave labor for high prices...

If theres any kind of final judgement in the universe... Hes one of the epic failures.

Codea

[tepples]

Tel my how I can write an app on the iPad, and then share it with whomever I want. How do I just send it to my friend across the table?

Did you try going to the App Store and looking for Codea?

Re:Codea

[amicusNYCL]

Tel my how I can write an app on the iPad, and then share it with whomever I want. How do I just send it to my friend across the table?

Did you try going to the App Store and looking for Codea?

Instead of making other people do the research, you could have just said "they can install the Codea app, create a project, use the Codea Runtime to package their project as an iOS app, get a developer license from Apple for $99/year, submit their app to Apple, and if it gets approved then someone else can download it". Not exactly what Alan Kay was talking about, but I guess that can be considered some form of "distribution". It doesn't help if you want your friend sitting next to you (or across the world) to play the new game you made, but hey, with Apple you can only ask for so much.

Licensed C64 Emulator Rejected From App Store

[tepples]

People love to make the claim you can not create content on the iPad but its been proven time and again for the most part to be false beyond a few exceptions you can create just fine. People code on them

Several years ago, Apple pulled a Commodore 64 game from the App Store when it was discovered that the user could reboot the emulated Commodore 64 into the BASIC prompt. Apple didn't want a BASIC prompt because users could key in programs that Apple had not approved. What caused Apple to change its mind and allow things like Codea?

Apple doesn't in any way prevent a people from creating a good app uploading it to the store for free

How are a Mac and a developer license available "for free"?

and let people download it for free.

Of course it does. If your application falls into one of the banned categories, which you're not even officially allowed to see until you've already bought a $650 Mac and a $99 per year developer license, Apple won't let you distribute it.

Re:So. Fucking. What?

[sribe]

What a self-important twit. Why the hell should his "vision" rule what Apple wants to sell 40 fucking years later?

Kind of reminds me of Ted Nelson complaining about how lame the web is because it doesn't live up to his vision for project Xanadu ;-)

Remember the quote "Real artists ship"???

...but Jesus H. Fucking Christ that's lamer than a Thalidomide dachshund.

Jesus Fucking Christ, that comment alone packs 1,000 more humor than all of yesterday's April 1 stupidity combined...

40+ years later, PCs still haven't gotten it right

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're ever worked in a computer lab, tech supported a parent or your boss etc.you'll see that the PC is s still very complicated for most people. People don't know what browser they use.... because a lot of us just rename the shortcut to "internet" and their outlook (or whatever) icon to "Mail" so they would stop calling us and asking which does what. PCs get viruses. People don't really understand folder hierarchy. People would come into the lab, put in their thumb drive... hit save on a paper they've been working on... take out the drive and the file isn't on it. They don't realize the file isn't on it because they keep sitting at the same machine every day. Sometimes photos save in my documents, sometimes in my photos in my documents, sometimes in the folder of the crapware on their computer. Installed programs like to take over everything and compete with each other. Stick a CD in the drive? 8 programs want to do something about it.

And it doesn't mean they are stupid... my boss runs a multi-milliondollar company which requires some smarts... yet if I tell him to go to whatever.com he still types it in the search bar in google (which makes me nuts).

On the iPhone/iPad etc. the photos are all in "photos", the music is in "music" the mail program is called "mail" and so on. All of their program icons are right there in front of them. It doesn't get virused. It practically updates itself. Their stuff is backed up into the cloud for them. (ask a family member if they backup their PC, they'll stare at you blankly) My gf has a pc at work, but at home only is using the iPad now. She has no interest in doing any kind of "computing" when she gets home from work. I got my mom a Kindle HD and she hasn't called me for tech support since. It can do email, web, I put a weather app on there and she can read books and skype the grandkids. Done!

tl;dr: 40+ years later, PCs still haven't gotten it right.

Apple intentionally blocks HTML5 features

[tepples]

HTML 5 and Javascript apps aren't restricted in a manner inconsistent with their programming paradigm

Yes they are. Apple intentionally refuses to let HTML5 applications use WebGL; iAds can use it but not anything else. Apple refuses to allow the user upload any object stored on the device other than pictures and video through <input type="file">, and even that didn't work for the first five years of iOS. Nor does Safari implement getUserMedia or any similar API to use the device's microphone and camera. This appears odd especially in relation to the fact that when introducing iOS 1 on the original iPhone, Apple intended to make web applications the only kind of application that one would need. How would a barcode scanner work without support from Safari?

Hypercard stacks and sharing

[girlinatrainingbra]

People used to be able to make actual useable software on their own as Hypercards stacks which they could then share freely (or for cost) with others. There was no restriction on how to share or requirement for approval and okey-dokeys and blessings from the Mother-ship in order to be allowed to do so. You could install software from whatever sources you wanted. It's that type of freedom to tinker that I believe Mr Kay is talking about and not seeing in the way the iPad money-sucking and "closed up" walled garden which is specifically designed by Apple.

Re:Hypercard stacks and sharing

[MachineShedFred]

And yet, Apple has never claimed that the iPad, or any surrounding ecosystem or walled garden, is in any way meant to fulfull the vision of Mr. Kay's Dynabook.

The whole damn Slashdot post is a troll. The interviewer asked a straw man question, Alan Kay then responded with a reasonable answer to the question, and then Slashdot posts that one question out of a much more wide-reaching interview as a massive troll to generate fanboy comment wars.

Re:Hypercard stacks and sharing

[BasilBrush]

There is nothing you could do with Hypercard that you can't do today with HTML. And there is absolutely nothing stopping you from running HTML apps on an iPad. So what are you complaining about?

Re:Hypercard stacks and sharing

[Anonymous Coward]

People used to be able to make actual useable software on their own as Hypercards stacks which they could then share freely (or for cost) with others. There was no restriction on how to share or requirement for approval and okey-dokeys and blessings from the Mother-ship in order to be allowed to do so. You could install software from whatever sources you wanted. It's that type of freedom to tinker that I believe Mr Kay is talking about and not seeing in the way the iPad money-sucking and "closed up" walled garden which is specifically designed by Apple.

What's keeping you from implementing something like HyperCard as an iPad app? Nothing. http://plectrum.com/novocard/NovoCard.html

There's a bunch of children here crying about not being able to do anything while the adults are getting things done.

Re:Hypercard stacks and sharing

[TheSeatOfMyPants]

HyperCard let just about anyone create a full-blown standalone application/game with it, even ones used to run large business inventory systems -- to do the same with HTML, it would require advanced web programming, database, and server skills, which are out of most people's reach, and would still be unable to be used if the device was offline.

Re:Hypercard stacks and sharing

[BasilBrush]

And so the goalposts move again, from capability, to ease of use. Well if you want a hypercard like environment to develop these free to share apps, then that's available too.

http://plectrum.com/novocard/NovoCard.html

Of course you'll be limited to the kind of stuff hypercard was capable of - I don't share your nostalgia in this particular case.

Different Visions

[SwashbucklingCowboy]

He had his vision, others had different visions. It doesn't mean he's right and they're wrong.

Bitfrost

[tepples]

Apple's solution [to trojans], the walled garden, is probably the wrong one, but no-one has come up with another credible security model that works as transparently or effectively for the end user.

The proper solution is to model what damage a trojan can do, figure out what privileges it would need to do that damage, and make sure that a program lacks those privileges without the user's knowledge. OLPC Sugar implements this using Bitfrost, and Android implements it using the permissions framework. Yes, I'm aware that Android's model needs refined. For example, the "phone state" privilege to read whether or not the application should stop playing audio because the phone is ringing is conflated with the privilege to read certain personally identifying information such as the IMEI, and the "Internet" privilege can't be limited to a set of domains.

Re:Bitfrost

[jader3rd]

The proper solution is to model what damage a trojan can do, figure out what privileges it would need to do that damage, and make sure that a program lacks those privileges without the user's knowledge.

Wouldn't you need a Touring machine to predict every way a malicious piece of software may behave? Even if you could with %100 accuracy analyze and then prevent every future piece of malware, most users would still give it permission to run. If your system throws up a UAC-esque style prompt saying "I detected that a piece of software is about to do something malicious to your computer, do you want me to let it continue?" the average user will click Yes, because if the computer wants to do something it should be allowed to do it. The end user knows that the people who made the computer are smarter then they are, so they'll let it do what it wants.

Re:Bitfrost

[MoneyT]

The proper solution is to model what damage a trojan can do, figure out what privileges it would need to do that damage, and make sure that a program lacks those privileges without the user's knowledge.

The problem here is it lacks transparency for the user. Here's the problem you need to solve:

The user wants to get X done on their computer. Every time you prompt the user to validate or confirm something that isn't doing X, you are taking time away from the user. And every time you take time away from the user, you annoy them. And every time you annoy them, you make it less likely that they will pay attention to the prompt that you provide the next time, and the time after that. Eventually you get to the point where the user just hits "OK" on whatever prompt you provide them just so that they can get on with doing their work.

This issue is made worse by the fact that consumer level computer security is different from corporate / server level security. A user owns all their files, and they want their applications to use their files. That a malicious application can't get root privileges and install a rogue ftp server is beside the point because the user doesn't care about that, they care about the files that any app running with the user's permissions can (by design and by necessity) access.

Sure android tried to solve this with their "confirm permissions on download" but seriously, have you ever read through the list of permissions some apps ask for? What user is going to even understand half of those? Even worse are the fact that the descriptions are nearly useless, you get crap like "this permission gives the app the ability to read your location, but it could also be used to track you, your kids and your little dog too". They're useless descriptions that essentially tell the user nothing about WHY the application wants those permissions, which is the important information.

Codea

[tepples]

there is no compiler, no debugger, no IDE available for any language

Not even Lua? When you bought Codea and tried it, what did you find lacking?

Why not buy a bike in the first place?

[tepples]

Or "if you're going to be always adding a second wheel, why not buy a bicycle in the first place?"

Re:Why not buy a bike in the first place?

[Americano]

Explain to me the essential difference between a tablet + keyboard running a terminal program, and a laptop running a terminal program? There are netbooks with smaller screens than a 10" tablet affords.

To be completely analogous, it's like buying a bike that can be operated as a unicycle OR a bicycle, and then pretending the 2nd wheel doesn't exist, never existed, hasn't even been conceived of, and is impossible to attach.

Re:Why not buy a bike in the first place?

[Anonymous Coward]

"it's like buying a bike that can be operated as a unicycle OR a bicycle" and never using it as a unicycle

Re:Why not buy a bike in the first place?

[narcc]

That's easy. A tablet + keyboard is essentially an overpriced, under-spec'd, and physically broken laptop that won't sit on your lap.

Let's not be ridiculous. A tablet doesn't even come close to a laptop replacement.

Re:Why not buy a bike in the first place?

[Americano]

Last I checked, terminal programs aren't particularly resource intensive, so the specs are pretty irrelevant for the task at hand. Price is pretty comparable to all but the cheapest netbooks, and certainly competitive with most laptops that aren't "under-specced" as well.

Users very rarely use laptops on their lap, because it's incredibly uncomfortable to do so for any substantial period of time - typing with your laptop on your lap is about as attractive a proposition as using the on-screen keyboard on a tablet is - you can DO it, but you're not gonna like it for very long.

And I never said "a tablet is a laptop replacement." I asked about a very specific scenario which was brought up up-thread, where somebody asserted that it was impossible to administer servers with a tablet.

Re:Why not buy a bike in the first place?

[narcc]

Price is pretty comparable to all but the cheapest netbooks, and certainly competitive with most laptops that aren't "under-specced" as well.

It's like you're not even trying. Check out laptop prices for similarly spec'd to the average tablet. Notice how hard it is to buy an antique laptop with specs similar to the new iPad?

Re:Why not buy a bike in the first place?

[Sigg3.net]

The economy! The economy!

"Insecure OSes"

[theurge14]

FTA:
"Apple with the iPad and iPhone goes even further and does not allow children to download an Etoy made by another child somewhere in the world. This could not be farther from the original intentions of the entire ARPA-IPTO/PARC community in the ’60s and ’70s.

Apple’s reasons for this are mostly bogus, and to the extent that security is an issue, what is insecure are the OSes supplied by the vendors (and the insecurities are the result of their own bad practices — they are not necessary)."

How is it an OS issue if a user downloads an app and grants an it full access to an iPhone and the app takes a copy of the contact list and the entire archive of phone calls and messages and beams them to a host somewhere in Russia without any further user interaction?

If the answer is the user must act as the software warden, how is a child supposed to guarantee this Etoy won't do any harm to the machine he or she is using?

In short, if the wall garden isn't the app curator then who is? The OS? The app developer? The child?

SteveJobs said computers are bicycles for the mind

[WillAdams]

Evoking a poster which graphed efficiency / speed of locomotion for various animals --- humans are in the middle of the pack, until one puts the human on a bicycle, then they move way out and up.

It kills me that I've yet to find a computing environment as elegant and as productive as a NeXT Cube running NeXTstep w/ Altsys Virtuoso, Lotus Improv, NoteBook.app, TeXview.app, TouchType.app and WriteNow.app (though WordPerfect gave the latter a good run for its money). While LaTeXiT, LyX and TeXshop meet most of my document-processing needs (and InDesign is pretty nice as well), I'm dreading the day when my Mac at work has to be replaced by one which can't run Mac OS X 10.6 and Macromedia FreeHand/MX --- even so, Services integration isn't as nice, I've never found a replacement for poste.app, &c.

Sadly, the next best environment I could put together now would be a Microsoft Surface Pro running Macromedia FreeHand MX and a bunch of other programs. Things I'd miss, and which I really wish the iPad had:

  - Display PostScript
  - PANTONE licensing at the OS level
  - movable main menu, tear off sub-menus
- Command= in any app to get a definition in Webster.app rocks
- having all of your man pages, the sysadmin refs, and the works of Will Shakespeare and anything else you wish to add in Digital Librarian ensures one can look up what one needs at will.
- Being able to improve the functionality of _any_ app by installing a Service or an app which provides a Service provides a synergy one doesn't get in Mac OS X where it's hit-or-miss whether or no an app supports Services (Cocoa apps do, Carbon and Java apps have to be specially coded)
- having total control over the screen (you can drag off-screen and hide all but one pixel of the vertical menu, one tile of the Dock)
- The vertical menu makes tear-off sub-menus make sense, which allows effortless customization of one's working environment for a given task w/o inscrutable toolbars
- the pop-up menu means that the menu for the current app is always instantly available --- some commands can even become gestural in one's access to them, e.g., ``Punch'' in Altsys Virtuso, right-button-menu click, down a bit and straight over and release
    - TeX provided by default and supported by the nifty TeXview.app
    - inspector-provided sort options for Miller-column filebrowser view
    - re-sizeable Shelf which can store multiple file selections as a single icon
    - nifty apps which made use of Services and Display PostScript like beYAP.app, Altsys Virtuoso, poste.app &c.
- Dynamic run-time binding means that installing a filter service affords said capabilities to any other app, w/o recompiling.

I don't think it's 'discarded'

[Junta]

I don't even think it's really doing much to displace PCs. People shortsighted enough to think solely in terms of new sales certainly feel that way, but it ignores reality.

Basically, PC market with or without tablets was destined to plateau. PC sales for a couple of decades were driven by more demanding applications and use cases. Now, the products have, largely, caught up to the applications people use. A new purchase was formerly driven mostly by the current owned product being 'too slow'. Now a new purchase is driven more and more by when the thing wears out beyond warranty rather than new capability not previously available.

Tablet and mobile are really a distinct market that PC didn't really penetrate. Sure, occasionally you'd see someone pretty dedicated lug around a laptop out and about, but those were pretty rare. Most everyone that had a PC 3 years ago still uses their PC, even if they have no need to buy a new one.

Using the legal system

[tepples]

Also, stop bitching that someone else didn't execute your vision.

Would it be more sincere to bitch that someone else not only didn't execute a given vision but uses the legal system to prevent other people from executing it?

Re:Using the legal system

[NatasRevol]

So Apple prevented Kay from executing his vision for the last 40 years by tying him up in court?

Maybe if Kay had actually tried to do so. Or if anyone had actually tried to do so.

Tablets and Ultrabooks

[tepples]

Sometimes I wonder why we are so quick to discard the PC.

Companies that made 10" laptops stopped making 10" laptops because tablets and Ultrabook laptops had a higher profit margin.

C64 game was rejected because it had BASIC

[tepples]

Codea

Initially, Apple rejected anything that would even remotely resemble Codea.

Re:SteveJobs said computers are bicycles for the m

[WillAdams]

Above all though, the iPad really needs AppleScript.

Very few people make a living in IT

[tepples]

Tepples, I think you mean they believe this.

Yes. Ultimately, I agree with you that openness is valuable, but I'm trying to play devil's advocate in order to strengthen the argument for openness against excuses for closedness.

Wireless network monitoring tools are primary useful to those who deploy, secure and integrate wireless networks. It is very handy to be able to see at a customers site that his wireless speeds suffer because all this neighbors are on the same channel.

<devils-advocate>Exactly: "a customer's site". Not your own. The vast majority of people do not "deploy, secure and integrate wireless networks" for a living. Those who do for a living can afford to buy a speciallized diagnostic tool, such as a laptop computer. For the rest of the world that doesn't make a living in information technology, a device that prevents trojans from executing is ideal.</devils-advocate>

Re:Very few people make a living in IT

[h4rr4r]

Even at my own business I use it.

Honestly, that is such a short sighted argument it does not deserve arguing with. I did not complain when they banned wireless tools, for I did not use them......

Re:Very few people make a living in IT

[tepples]

The vast majority of people do not "deploy, secure and integrate wireless networks" for a living.

Honestly, that is such a short sighted argument it does not deserve arguing with.

Yet other people are arguing it today on Slashdot, and they're getting moderated up. See, for example, replies to this comment.

Re:Very few people make a living in IT

[h4rr4r]

This is because lots of people are short sighted and stupid.

There is nothing we can do about that. It has always been that way and likely always will.

Maybe one day we can have another BBS/early internet that excludes these folks. Maybe one day september will end.

Re:Very few people make a living in IT

[Anonymous Coward]

It must suck not being part of 'No September. If you were smart enough someone would have already reached out to you.

First 35, last 5

[tepples]

So Apple prevented Kay from executing his vision for the last 40 years by tying him up in court?

For 35 of those 40 years, the underlying computing technology wasn't there. For the other five, Apple has been flexing the patent portfolios that it had acquired.

Re:First 35, last 5

[NatasRevol]

And yet Kay could have been out there addressing both.

Instead, he sits here bitching.

His concept predated Apple Inc., and he did NOTHING to further it.

Lowered expectations

[tepples]

If the device in their hand does what they want it to do then there is no 'upgrade' (I'd argue: downgrade) path to a PC.

That's the real problem right there: a locked-down device makes people want less.

Re:Lowered expectations

[Anonymous Coward]

Ehhh... Not everyone cares about fidgeting around with computers. But in todays society you are required to have some sort of computer access, mostly internet access. For many of these people out there a tablet is more than enough. Quit shoving the concept that everyone needs a computer.

I advocate that we should keep the access to general purpose computers restricted, away from the hands of the uneducated masses. Using a tool like a computer requires a certain level of proficiency. Computers have become so common that people treats them like something everyone should be able to use, without any knowledge. When this dumbs down the way I can use the computer, it is wrong. Let people use locked down devices where they can't do any harm. Where viruses and trojans are not harmful. Where they can't mess up the settings so that the device doesn't start.

There are a lot of people where a tablet is more than enough. I am happy that this is the case.

By the way, when did you last use a blowtorch, a soldering iron, a pneumatic drill? All of them are less advanced tools than the computer, still most people without knowledge of how to use them (including geeks) would never pick one up. Why should computers be treated any differently?

Re:Lowered expectations

[Anonymous Coward]

If the device in their hand does what they want it to do then there is no 'upgrade' (I'd argue: downgrade) path to a PC.

That's the real problem right there: a locked-down device makes people want less.

Why is that a problem? Let the herds buy the mass tech and thus lower the tech prices for the cool stuff for those who care.

Re:Lowered expectations

[tepples]

a locked-down device makes people want less.

Why is that a problem? Let the herds buy the mass tech and thus lower the tech prices for the cool stuff for those who care.

The problem is that lowering the prices for locked-down products doesn't necessarily lower the prices for products that respect the owner's freedom.

Apple v. Samsung

[tepples]

If you're so upset about it, build your own. Make it do exactly what you want. Whatever.

That's almost a copy-paste from this post. I'll answer both: Apple has sued and continues to sue companies that build their own.

It's like buying a white BMW for your kid and them getting whiny because it's not red. Grow up and quit bitching already.

Or like BMW suing anyone who makes a red car.

Re:Apple v. Samsung

[StuartHankins]

Apple has sued companies that copied their product. So you can't copy it. The fact that there are dozens of different models available today from multiple vendors shows that it's possible. Or make your own. Nothing stopping you there.

Again, just don't copy Apple's product. Don't you think if you copied a BMW 300's design they would sue you? Duh. If you don't have something new to contribute then you don't have an invention, and you don't deserve to have a place in the market.

Doing not a great job before a great job

[tepples]

So what? MSDN is how much?

MSDN documentation is available on the Internet without charge, as are Visual Studio Express and third-party developer tools such as MinGW.

And surely if you're developing Windows apps professionally you have an MSDN subscription.

Not everybody who develops Windows apps does so for a living. Some are learning to do it, and some do it as a hobby.

If you can't afford it, you probably aren't selling any apps, which means you probably aren't doing a great job with your app.

So you claim that people learning to program aren't doing a great job with their learning. In that case, everyone who plans to do a great job in the future has to do not a great job before a great job.

Re:Doing not a great job before a great job

[StuartHankins]

Don't be disingenious. People just learning should keep their apps out of the store, rather than me having to wade through them with the result that is the shitstorm of Windows apps. So much of the software there is terrible, and when it's not terrible it's malicious. Adware and unremovable software and Comet Cursors and TWC desktop and all the other shitty shitty apps -- you can keep it on Windows.

Visit your Wal-Mart's $10 PC games section, and let me know how that works out for you. And that's shit that someone actually had published and went to printing and manufacturing and all that. You seriously think letting Aunt Jane upload her app to the store is a good idea?

Perhaps when you've been programming as long as I have, your interpretation of this issue will change. It's my 33rd year since I started, and my 18th or 19th year doing it for a living. Don't pretend that allowing just anyone to upload an app to the store without any vetting results in a good app.

Hell, even Nintendo won't let you develop a game for them unless you've got serious processes in place. No doubt you're pissed about that also.

Re:Doing not a great job before a great job

[tepples]

People just learning should keep their apps out of the store

I agree. It's just that showing an application to friends, family, and prospective employers becomes more difficult when the store is the only way to get an application onto anyone else's device. And it's expensive when you aren't in a position to spend $750 on tools just to get started. And it's stressful when the clock is ticking and you feel a need to finish learning before your license to run a development environment expires at the end of the year. And and it's disappointing to finish an application only to learn that Apple bans the application and all other applications like it from its store.

Re:Doing not a great job before a great job

[StuartHankins]

Then use Android, or Windows phone, or I think Palm still has an OS you can develop for. There's nothing that states that Apple must make a programming environment for their hardware available to you on your terms.

Re:Doing not a great job before a great job

[tepples]

Then use Android

Thank you. I will admit that I made the momentary mistake of confusing your position with that of iOS advocates who have claimed that not only should developers wait until they have some other substantial source of income before starting to learn to program but also that Android is so poorly engineered that it is worthless.

That was one

[SuperKendall]

I also read that interview last week; that was one of the very companies I had in mind.

They seem to have come closest to making alternative ideas scale. It's interesting that success outside of traditional frameworks seems to correlate to the ability to shed managerial layers...

Why just *a* leader?

[SuperKendall]

On the contrary, without a leader to challenge people by setting the bar high

That does not have to be one person. In fact even at Apple it is not, there were and are a lot more people at Apple saying "No" other than Jobs.

I think it's entirely possible that the person "setting the bar high" can be as low as EVERY individual working at a company. Even if it can't work at quite level it could just be a more natural leader within a group. But there's no reason why it must be one guy out in front of everyone.

What companies need is not so much people who shoot down bad ideas as employees smart enough not to push bad ideas to begin with!

Sandboxing

[tepples]

The solution is not to prevent applications from running entirely as much as to run each application in a sandbox, with access to shared resources such as the contact list controlled by privileges attached to the package and disclosed to the user upon installation. To an extent, the Bitfrost security platform in OLPC Sugar does this, as does Android. Lack of easy sandboxing is an operating system problem that deserves an operating system solution.

Re:Sandboxing

[theurge14]

"Disclosed to the user upon installation"

Again, what you've described is users as a software warden, in which in the context of the Dynabook vision are "children of all ages".

Re:Sandboxing

[david_thornley]

Except that that doesn't work.

Let's take a web browser that can upload and download files. Hardly a niche application. It therefore has privileges to use TCP/IP pretty much at will (sandboxing irrelevant), full read access to the file system (sandboxing impossible), write access to part of it at least (with the expectation that the files will get to arbitrary places), and can execute one or more Turing-complete languages (can and should be sandboxed).

In other words, I've got a minimal permission list that essentially allows the software to examine all my files and send the interesting bits elsewhere. Yeah, that's secure.

And this assumes that the user can look at permissions and make sense of them. I don't necessarily know what everything means in detail, or how it can be exploited. Somebody who understands computer systems less than I do (i.e., almost all the population) is going to be even more lost. You're suggesting that somebody who doesn't understand computers well can and will make intelligent decisions on vague and necessarily broad permissions, realizing that the person has to make only one mistake to be in real trouble.

Re:Sandboxing

[khchung]

The solution is not to prevent applications from running entirely as much as to run each application in a sandbox, with access to shared resources such as the contact list controlled by privileges attached to the package and disclosed to the user upon installation.

You mean, just like running Java Applets in a JVM in your browser?

Yeah, a whole lot of security that gave us.

News Flash

[SuperKendall]

Initially, Apple rejected anything that would even remotely resemble Codea.

And now they don't.

People also used to have to get dinner with spears. And now they don't So you pointing out how hard it is metaphorically speaking to hunt with spears is as stupid as it is pointless.

Patents on individual features

[tepples]

Apple has sued companies that copied their product. So you can't copy it.

Even if you don't copy the whole thing, you could still wind up in legal trouble, as Apple holds exclusive rights in even small pieces of the product, such as some basic multitouch gestures. So please clarify what you mean by "copy it".

The fact that there are dozens of different models available today from multiple vendors shows that it's possible.

Actually it shows one of two things: either A. that it's possible, or B. that Apple just hasn't got around to suing the other vendors yet.

Re:Patents on individual features

[StuartHankins]

So please clarify what you mean by "copy it".

If you truly don't understand what copying means regarding to patent law, you shouldn't be a part of this discussion. I think it's more likely you're a troll.

By all means, continue to sit around and bitch about it. That will certainly change things (eye roll).

"Can't" is just an excuse. I remember a quote about it: “The only thing standing between you and your goal is the bullshit story you keep telling yourself as to why you can't achieve it.” In the meantime, the rest of us will be doing well.

Re:40+ years later, PCs still haven't gotten it ri

[Anonymous Coward]

Right. Dumbing things down is always the answer. lol

Parental controls

[tepples]

Again, what you've described is users as a software warden, in which in the context of the Dynabook vision are "children of all ages".

Then the parent who owns the device would put controls on a child's account to require parental consent before installing any third-party application package that uses certain privileges. It would not restrict applications that the user himself develops.

Economies of scale

[tepples]

This is because lots of people are short sighted and stupid.

Short sighted, stupid, and in positions of power, whether elected through votes or through customers' wallets.

Maybe one day september will end.

People who are part of September outnumber people who wish September would end to such an extent that economies of scale among large manufacturers are overwhelmingly tilted in favor of serving the "short sighted and stupid" people who are part of September. A consensus has formed that it's so unusual for a person to want to leave September that people who want to leave September are expected to prove that they have already learned some other trade first so that they can afford the tools needed for leaving September. In the case of the article, these tools include a Mac and a developer license.

Re:Economies of scale

[h4rr4r]

As it has always been.

I am too old to worry about it now. So long as Android is the most popular mobile platform, which it is, I say we are pretty safe.

Re:Economies of scale

[Anonymous Coward]

"My date's the quarterback of the football team. I must be worthwhile!"

How terribly, terribly sad for you.

Not disposable - DURABLE

[SuperKendall]

This disturbs me, personally. Your statement is synonymous with "disposable".

This is TOTALLY OPPOSITE of reality and my point.

You want disposable? Try the traditional computer where we were always casting off bits over time, upgrading ram and video cards and hard drives and so on. Sure you kept the case; so what?

The iPad and other "post-PC" devices are things you can use for YEARS because they are maintained and updated for you, and ever after that part ends they continue to be useful for years. There's no reason someone could not easily keep using an iPad for four to five years, far longer than any PC would last without changes.

ASUS did this with the first Transformer, they dropped all support for it in under 2 years

But did that render it useless? I don't think so. Also I would argue that just because something is a tablet does NOT make it a post-PC device - the very fact that updates even mattered indicates this. An original iPad is still extremely useful to this day even if you had kept it on iOS4 without upgrading further.

Re:Not disposable - DURABLE

[Omestes]

u want disposable? Try the traditional computer where we were always casting off bits over time, upgrading ram and video cards and hard drives and so on. Sure you kept the case; so what?

Actually I recycled most of them. I still have 10 year old drives sitting around as backups, and my girlfriend gets all my cast-off bits as upgrades (most of her old parts going to my mom's PC). I'd estimate that the average PC component lasts around 7 years, in my family. Compare this with my Transformer, which at 2 years old was considered "legacy" by the manufacturer. After this 7 year period they end up on my garage wall, as "art" (with my Voodoo 2, and 8086 boards).

I know I am not typical... But even my non-technical dad keeps computers for 5+ years, during this time period they still receive updates, and can pretty much run all modern software (sans games, obviously). After his updates he donates them, sans HDDs. He did toss one, that got fried in a lightening storm, but he never heard the end of it from me, so now he lets me fix them up, so we can give them to shelters or schools.

Re:Not disposable - DURABLE

[Anonymous Coward]

An original iPad is still extremely useful to this day even if you had kept it on iOS4 without upgrading further.

Indeed. I have an original iPad, and it's no longer supported - I have iOS 5.1.1 on it, and it sits on the end table in the living room, within easy reach for:
- web browsing;
- checking email;
- running the comcast xfinity remote app to control my tv, schedule recordings, etc;
- imessages with family & friends;
- use as an e-reader with access to my entire iBooks, Amazon, and B&N libraries, as well as dozens of books and reference materials I've downloaded.
- words with friends - my mom (a retired school teacher) loves the game on her iPad, and we have casual games going back and forth constantly;
- browsing RSS feeds via Feedly;
- reading saved articles that I mark at work via Instapaper;
- Listening to music occasionally - via local music/spotify/pandora/downloaded podcasts;
- streaming netflix & HBO content on the road;
- cookbook usage in the kitchen;
- various social services: instagram, facebook, linkedin, g+, twitter;
- as a music reference when i'm playing - load up your sheetmusic on screen, and go;
- skype conversations (voice only, no video) with family & friends when i'm traveling;

It still works quite well for all of these things, and it is just shy of 3 years old, and no longer officially supported. I won't replace it until it *actually* dies, or a new version is introduced with such amazing, compelling features that I cannot help but upgrade. I travel a fair amount for work, and it's seen quite a bit of use - it's lighter, smaller, and easier to carry around than a "personal laptop." For stuff that requires significant text entry, I can always use my work laptop. In a REAL pinch, I could buy a small bluetooth keyboard to carry around too... but there's just not that compelling a need for it.

The argument that Apple somehow "forces" people to upgrade is foolish. You can use these devices well into their "official" obsolescence. And for all the people whining about no software support indefinitely... how are those Android updates from your carriers coming along? I'd wager that for about 75% of you, the answer is, "not so good."

Re:Not disposable - DURABLE

[Shirley Marquez]

Yesterday I found an old PC that was being thrown out. It turned out to be a Dell Dimension B110 - 2.53GHz Celeron D, 512MB RAM (the base configuration was 256MB but this one had more), 80GB hard disk, CD-RW/DVD-ROM drive. Fully functional hardware; the Windows XP installation was messed up and wouldn't boot. Add another 1GB RAM, an old keyboard and mouse (the former owner presumably kept those for the new system), and a castoff monitor from my collection of parts, wipe the hard disk and install Ubuntu 12.04, usable computer. For $0 cash spent. I will either use it to upgrade one of the household servers or give it away to someone who needs one; haven't decided yet.

I don't know exactly how old this box is. Online reviews of that model are dated April 2006, so it might be almost exactly 7 years old, and it was a low-end system even when it was new. Unless something breaks it will probably still be a useful computer for at least three more years.

If I had wanted XP I could have made the effort to track down a Dell OEM install disk and reinstalled it; the Windows product key sticker is still in place. 1.5GB would be a bit thin for Windows 7 so I wouldn't put that on.

No, it's no barn burner. But it's at least as fast as a current low-end notebook, which means that it will run a lot of current software just fine.

Tens of millions

[tepples]

If you truly don't understand what copying means regarding to patent law

To prove my good faith, I will recite my understanding of what patent infringement means: producing a device, or performing a process, that matches any one of the often dozens of claims in any one of the millions of subsisting patents. So how should an engineer familiarize himself with all these tens of millions of claims in order not to infringe any of them?

Re:Tens of millions

[StuartHankins]

The same way engineers do in every other industry on an everyday basis. I'm not defending that the process is overly convoluted or that I'm not a fan of it. But people have figured out how to do this and it's commonplace. New products arrive daily in every industry.

Quit giving excuses why you can't do something and just go do it... or sit back and complain and watch others show you how. The phrase "can't never could" comes to mind when I converse with you. Surely you're better than that.

No Thanks to Never Land

[SuperKendall]

you can NEVER do anything outside of what apple says you can

Sure you can - you can always jailbreak (or root, or whatever).

There will always be a means for the technically ept to escape whatever bonds there appear to be wrapped around any technology. What there has not need to this point is a way for people who did not understand technology to get tangled in unkept tentacles of difficult that crept out all over.

YOUR kind is the one who has enslaved humanity over the years; you are the luddite proclaiming something new to your experience is bad even though you have lost nothing. You simply wish to seek others from enjoying technology to the degree you can, because it threatens for some reason.

Screw that I say, let EVERYONE enjoy the technically enhanced world that computers promised but had a rough time delivering.

Re:No Thanks to Never Land

[Proteus]

It's not only jailbreaking that lets you get around Apple's app restrictions (and I wouldn't rely on it, since jailbreaking gets harder with each release); you can also write an HTML5 app. The only restrictions are what the OS allows HTML5 apps to access. The overwhelming majority of App Store apps I've seen would work just fine as an HTML5 app -- only the more graphically-intense games or things that rely on direct access to hardware features even need to be native.

On Oil

[SuperKendall]

I hope you'd have enough sense to object if you needed a special key to turn the drain plug retained by the dealer and that any attempts to defeat the lock would void your warranty and exclude you from any future deal service paid or otherwise.

And if the tradeoff were an oil change that would happen once a decade? You seem to ignore there could be a very real benefit here which you are hiding, like some kind of super-lubricant you cannot get normally and the risk is that someone would accidentally use normal oil and destroy the engine.

The fact that you cannot see possibilities opened up by limitations is a curse you must overcome to grow. Anyone creative realizes the fundamental truth in what you see as a contradiction.

Re:On Oil

[DarkOx]

see possibilities opened up by limitations

Sounds like the crap they put on motivational awful posters.

Seriously even in your example there is no reason to bar be from replacing the engine fluids. A stern warning against it (being rather unusual for the class of item) when you purchases it and some bold print in the owners manual should more than suffice.

Maybe I have a damn good reason for wanting to replace the super lube, like I think I came up with an even better super lube in the basement with my chemistry set and need to road test it. Sorry limitations are just what they are: limitations.

I see the possibilities perfectly clearly; its the destruction of personal and social mobility. The possibly offered by those limitations belongs entirely to those currently in control. Its exactly what they need to ensure they stay there forever.

Re:On Oil

[DarkOx]

My only objection is the way they prevent you doing what you want. If the box every IPad is delivered in had a top sheet saying "For the best user experience Apple recommends you only install applications of the App store" I'd have no problem.

They don't even need to make it obvious how to use other app stores or types of sources. No gui button no problem; users that want to do that can learn enough to open up a text file some place and make some edits. I am fine with that too. Hey even if they want to make a dialog pop up every time you run an unsigned app; fine.

I just think there is a bright line where you create methods actively designed to prevent people from doing things out side the nine dots. If your customers have to "jail break" your device, and you have a cat and mouse game going where you constantly try to close the latest hole they found I think you have crossed that line.

*sigh*

[fustakrakich]

The computer has failed at nothing.

Has the crescent wrench 'failed' to live up to its potential as a hammer?

only for some values of Creativity

[fyngyrz]

For instance, I have 2D CAD, structured drawing, whiteboard, paint, text and word processing, spreadsheet, music composition and performance, photo manipulation, comic builder, mannequin manipulator, and HTML5 authoring tools on my iPad. I've also got a wonderful camera-control app for my DSLR. All of that came from the app store. I have to say, I'm not feeling particularly compromised, creativity-wise.

When I want to write software, I generally do it with the target in mind being the desktop. Part of that is a disinterest in the way Apple runs their developer programs, part of it is simply disdain for the idea that someone would expect me to pay to develop for them (if anything, they should pay me.) But if I *wanted* to, I certainly could make IOS apps in the Objective C to-the-metal sense. I can already cook up HTML5 goodies, should the urge strike me.

Apple's far from perfect, and so is the iPad (I have a list... lol) but really, this whole "not a creative tool" thing is a bridge too far. You could put me in a corner with my iPad and I could go under all day, doing nothing but creating.

I'd also like to throw this out: Consuming content can also be part of the creative process. Read a textbook, a thoughtful essay, a political rant, etc. If that doesn't spur you to think creatively, warning, you may actually be algae.

Re:Bing!

[Bearhouse]

Well, certainly not a M$ fanboy or shill, it would seem :)

Re:Bing!

[cyber-vandal]

Well I've got a Windows partition on my Mac and I'm a .NET developer so I think I've got the full set :-)

Block the system calls

[tepples]

Wouldn't you need a Touring machine to predict every way a malicious piece of software may behave?

An operating system doesn't have to solve the halting problem to stop malicious actions by applications; you just block the system calls that enable the misbehavior. For example, operating systems already prevent processes from scribbling on each other's memory spaces, and they prevent users from scribbling on each other's files. Or an operating system implementing Internet access whitelisting would return an error when resolving hostnames outside the domains designated by the package manifest, and it would return an error when connecting to IP addresses not returned by the resolver.

Even if you could with %100 accuracy analyze and then prevent every future piece of malware, most users would still give it permission to run.

That's where the parental controls come in. If the parent doesn't want the child going on random web sites, the parent will establish a domain whitelist on the child's account. If the parent doesn't want the child installing random applications that access the user's contacts, the parent will set a filter that blocks the child's installation of applications that require the contacts privilege. In order to install such applications, the child would have to first seek permission from the parent who owns the device.

The end user knows that the people who made the computer are smarter then they are

You see, that's where the opinions differ. There exist more than one sense of "smarter". On the one hand, the employees of a company that manufactures a device might be "smarter at electrical engineering" and "smarter at GUI toolkit design" and "smarter at operating system kernel implementation". On the other hand, the user might be "smarter at domain knowledge related to the application that I want to use". A user might want to run wireless network monitoring tools, for example, but Apple doesn't allow such tools to be made available through the App Store. Sure, users should have the choice of delegating curation to a third party. But a device's owner shouldn't be forced into a particular curator appointed by the device's manufacturer. Android, for example, gives a device's owner the power to enable or disable installation of applications from sources other than Amazon Appstore (for Kindle devices) or Google Play Store (for most other devices). So he can choose to make Google the exclusive curator, or he can choose not to.

"Fanboi" of what?

[SuperKendall]

Nice strawman, fanboi!

My comments apply to any Post-PC device, not just from Apple.

The only strawmen here are the ones you and your neo-luddite pals are erecting in s futile effort to prove that technology should stay as it was a decade ago...

If you can't stand progress go huddle in a cave. You can always burn your personal strawman for warmth.

Secure file chooser

[tepples]

The user wants to get X done on their computer. Every time you prompt the user to validate or confirm something that isn't doing X, you are taking time away from the user.

And every time you ban an entire class of applications from the monopoly repository, as Apple has done with wireless network monitoring tools on iOS, you are also taking time away from the user.

Bitfrost

A user owns all their files, and they want their applications to use their files. [But] they care about the files that any app running with the user's permissions can (by design and by necessity) access.

Then the application should not run with the user's permissions. Instead, it should run with the application's permissions, where the application can see only those files or folders that the user has chosen through a file chooser form. (If you're using a PC running Windows or Linux, press Ctrl+O now to see an example of such a form; if you're using a Mac, press Command+O.) I apologize for not linking to a page about OLPC Bitfrost more conspicuously earlier, but Bitfrost implements this model, as do the Mac App Store sandbox and the JavaScript File API.

have you ever read through the list of permissions some [Android] apps ask for? [...] They're useless descriptions that essentially tell the user nothing about WHY the application wants those permissions, which is the important information.

Then the application should explain, in its description on the repository, why it needs each Android permission. I've noticed that a lot of applications on Google Play Store already include such an explanation. I'll agree that the permission rationales should be moved closer to the actual list of permissions though. This reduces the attack surface from "applications that request more permissions than the developer adequately explains" to "applications whose developer intentionally lies about what the application does with the permissions", and introducing intent into the equation also introduces the possibility of prosecution under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act and foreign counterparts.

Competition is good?

[recharged95]

"live up to its potential as an educational tool"

Thank business and advertisement industries for that. They have no care for the educational system aside from selling/exploiting it.

Are you 12?

[Anonymous Coward]

Change of heart. Right. Apple is a company. I doubt that there's much heart in it in the stack of documents forming their articles of incorporation. They saw negative reactions to a decision they made, and hence reversed it in order to increase their appeal to consumers. Not complicated.

There are tablets, and then there are tablets

[tepples]

Explain to me the essential difference between a tablet + keyboard running a terminal program, and a laptop running a terminal program?

A tablet running Windows 8 or the forthcoming Ubuntu Touch is equivalent to a laptop, apart from the lower precision of the pointing device. Tablets that ship with any other popular operating system have limitations that I'll explain next.

For one thing, operating systems that ship on tablets tend to maximize all applications. This makes it hard to see the source code and the program's output side by side, or the source code and the documentation side by side. On my 10" laptop, I have no problem putting two 80-column windows side by side, but I can see how someone with much older eyes than mine might have a problem.

For another, "terminal program" means one thing on Linux, FreeBSD, and Mac OS X, and something different on Windows and iOS. On Linux, FreeBSD, and Mac OS X, "terminal program" most commonly means a program used to run a command-line shell on the local machine, such as GNOME Terminal or Konsole or Windows Command Prompt. In this case, the difference between a tablet and a netbook is the policy for what applications the manufacturer allows to be installed on the device. Windows RT and iOS are far more restrictive than Android and laptop operating systems in this sense.

Third, "terminal program" can also mean a program used to connect to a remote computer and run programs on the remote computer, such as GNOME Terminal+ssh or Konsole+ssh or PuTTY, or by extension VNC or RDP viewers or X11 servers. There isn't much difference between laptops and tablets here: if you're connected to the Internet, you can use them; if you aren't, you can't. It's just that some Slashdot users have promoted SSH, VNC, and the like as workarounds for Apple's restrictions, without considering that a lot of people aren't willing to spend hundreds of dollars extra per year in order to have Internet access on the transit commute to and from the day job.

To be completely analogous, it's like buying a bike that can be operated as a unicycle OR a bicycle, and then pretending the 2nd wheel doesn't exist, never existed, hasn't even been conceived of, and is impossible to attach.

I see it as more like buying a unicycle with a bicycle accessory and then finding that the assembled bicycle's wheels lock up on roads that the manufacturer hasn't specifically approved.

Re:There are tablets, and then there are tablets

[Americano]

The original comment I responded to specifically referenced "administering servers," not "writing code" (though it's been established elsewhere in this thread that it's absolutely possible to write code on a tablet, as well).

If you open a terminal window to administer your server on a laptop, and I open a terminal window to administer my server on a tablet+bluetooth keyboard, the correct answer is, "there is no fucking difference."

That's all you had to say, really.

Re:There are tablets, and then there are tablets

[narcc]

The original comment I responded to specifically referenced "administering servers," not "writing code" (though it's been established elsewhere in this thread that it's absolutely possible to write code on a tablet, as well).

I can write code on a cell phone as well. That doesn't mean it's just as good as desktop.

If you open a terminal window to administer your server on a laptop, and I open a terminal window to administer my server on a tablet+bluetooth keyboard, the correct answer is, "there is no fucking difference."

I can do the same thing on my cell phone -- I can even connect a blue-tooth keyboard. There's a MASSIVE difference, and not just in screen size!

Tablets suck for anything involving text -- or anything requiring precision for that matter.

Just because you can say "it can be done on ..." does not mean "it's just as good as ..."

In other words, sell the iPad

[tepples]

Install an SSH app, get a VPS linux distribution

School buses tend to lack a Wi-Fi signal. The student would have to wait until he gets home. But in light of the rest of that paragraph, I'm not going to push this issue.

Or, said student should have just requested a Mac Mini in the first place, or some cheap beater PC

For one thing, this would require that the student have known years in advance that his needs would grow to those for which a PC is needed. "No, you can't sign up for a programming elective because you don't have a computer on which to do your homework, and no, I'm not going to buy you one because I just bought you an iPad last year. Isn't that good enough?" One possible solution would be to sell the iPad and use the money to buy a beater laptop.

and spent the difference on Visual Studio

Visual Studio Express is distributed without charge to users of recent versions of Windows.

Re:In other words, sell the iPad

[thoth]

Ok I admit I was being harsh before.

Maybe the hypothetical recipient of the iPad is at a point where they want to do more but can't. They've downloaded some books/info at home for offline reading, and now want to write some code. They could jump through a ton of hoops trying to use a device that just isn't designed for that - I'm sure it can be make to work but perhaps the effort isn't worth it the results - and your suggestion about selling it for the money towards a cheap notebook is the way to go.

Are Android tablets better for this - say the Nexus 7, is it straight foward to hack it to a command prompt and get a keyboard for real typing? That would be for the super cost sensitive, but otherwise the cheap notebook/laptop would be better for the kid who wants to learn programming.

Re:In other words, sell the iPad

[tepples]

Are Android tablets better for this - say the Nexus 7, is it straight foward to hack it to a command prompt

I haven't tried it yet, but there are things like SL4A (scripting layer) and AIDE (Java IDE). And if you're willing to reformat the device and you have temporary access to a PC, you can get root.

and get a keyboard for real typing?

I bought a Bluetooth keyboard and paired it to my Nexus 7 tablet with no problem.

Please show me this news flash

[tepples]

Change of heart. Right. Apple is a company.

"Change of heart" is as metaphorical for a corporation as it is for an individual. When one says an individual had a "change of heart", it doesn't refer to a heart transplant except in a bad pun.

They saw negative reactions to a decision they made, and hence reversed it

What I'm asking for is the news story covering these negative reactions, or an Apple press release announcing the change to the App Store Review Guidelines that allowed Codea to be made, or something like that to document the timing and circumstances of the policy change.

Interface.

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe you didn't notice, but the iPad has a small screen and is manipulated primarily with touch. It's not a desktop computer with a mouse and keyboard. If you want a desktop computer with a mouse and keyboard, you could buy (or could have bought) a desktop with mouse and keyboard instead of an iPad.

Oh, wait, sorry, what am I thinking? The iPad sucks because I can't write documented in the archaic LaTeX language! What the hell was Apple thinking when they designed a computer that doesn't support LaTeX? Nobody's going to buy it! LOL!

Re:Interface.

[WillAdams]

The problem is, the creativity tools on the iPad are sorely limited / limiting, and what's available for desktops isn't much better.

I can't put together a system now which works as well for me as my NeXT Cube running Altsys Virtuoso. The best thing I can piece together would be a Microsoft Surface Pro running a 10 year old copy of Freehand MX.

Looking into xasy and NodeBox --- any other suggestions?

They did not cross that line

[SuperKendall]

you have a cat and mouse game going where you constantly try to close the latest hole

Apple closes security holes, which they absolutely should.

There will always be the possibility of tethering jaibreaking which is more an issue of trcking the system updater; Apple COULD close that hole but has not to date.

Otherwise what would be accomplished by your paper other than to kill trees? Anyone with technical ability knows jailbreaking exists in short order, if they desire to go beyond the approved development tools (which give you a huge range of scope to start with).

Re:They did not cross that line

[DarkOx]

No it certainly does not always exist in short order. It took years to jailbreak the ps3 and Xbox 360. Just because apples plan is security thru marketing does not mean you can depend on that.

End-users had no trouble programming spreadsheets

[davecb]

The world of end-user programming is larger that one would think on first glance, although in the case of spreadsheets it looks like functional-languages-with-globals (;-))

I've seen occasional graphic languages (POLs) that could be used in more general ways than spreadsheets: one needs to find one that solves an interesting problem everyone faces.
--dave

Xerox PARC & Today's Post PC World

[Whatchamacallit]

As much as Alan Kay is a super Geek and co-father of todays technology the following must be stated very very clearly.

Apple bought all the rights to the Xerox PARC technology which they incorporated into the Lisa and then the Macintosh. But they were not following the Xerox PARC vision and immediately veered off in Apple's own direction since day one.

The iPad was never meant to fulfill Alan Kaye's vision of the Dynabook. It was Apple's vision of a tablet computer and always has been. There is zero betrayal. The premise is flawed.

Re:Xerox PARC & Today's Post PC World

[lennier]

The iPad was never meant to fulfill Alan Kaye's vision of the Dynabook.

The fact that the iPad 'was never meant to be' a Dynabook does not contradict the claim that the iPad is not a Dynabook.

What we should be asking is, do we want a Dynabook?

How about some cheese with that whine...

[Mysticalfruit]

So I actually read the article and this is what I got out of it..

"I had this very particular grand vision in the 1970's about how I wanted this ubiquitous computing environment that people would use to do everything...and the iPad doesn't live up to that vision"

I couldn't help but think that the guy was grousing about with a serious case of sour grapes.
With the clear evidence of the tablet market being in complete freefall...oh wait that's netbooks... I would argue that the android tablets come closest to his vision if anything does. Basically an Android tablet that had a slide down keyboard would in fact be a dynabook.
While Apple has slick products, just they're just too locked at this point.

Hello, you know who I am and we are sorry

[Anonymous Coward]

We are very sorry.
  We are sorry.
We are sorryyy.
We are sorry.
Sorry.

Re:WELL DUH !! 1970S ??

[denvergeek]

What have the Romans ever done for us?!

Xerox 8010 Information System

[Anonymous Coward]

Xerox showed their vision in the Xerox Star. Other people ran away with those concepts and actually made them work, so quit whining about it. You could have done your vision right, for your private personal definition of right, but we the people chose differently. If you know better, go create a better product according to your vision!

Yes, the IPad is only for consuming... oh wait.

[aristotle-dude]

https://itunes.apple.com/us/genre/ios-photo-video/id6008?mt=8

There are plenty of graphic editors including Photoshop touch, Video editors and music/sound editors. in that category.

There are also no business or productivity apps in the app store either.... oh wait. https://itunes.apple.com/us/genre/ios-business/id6000?mt=8

https://itunes.apple.com/us/genre/ios-productivity/id6007?mt=8

File chooser form

[tepples]

Let's take a web browser that can upload and download files. Hardly a niche application. It therefore has privileges to use TCP/IP pretty much at will (sandboxing irrelevant), full read access to the file system (sandboxing impossible)

Why would a web browser need full read access to the file system just to upload one file that the user chooses? When the user clicks the "Browse/Choose File" button, it asks the operating system to present a file chooser form. Only the file that the user ends up choosing would be visible to the browser. Likewise, any file that the user drags from a file manager onto the browser would become visible.

write access to part of it at least

Namely the browser's download folder, which the application's manifest would specify.

(with the expectation that the files will get to arbitrary places)

What exactly do you mean by "arbitrary places" in this context?

and can execute one or more Turing-complete languages (can and should be sandboxed).

I mentioned the file chooser precisely to mirror the restrictions of the File API in HTML5.

Is access to those restricted

[tepples]

Anonymous Coward wrote:

I advocate that we should keep the access to general purpose computers restricted [...] By the way, when did you last use a blowtorch, a soldering iron, a pneumatic drill? All of them are less advanced tools than the computer, still most people without knowledge of how to use them (including geeks) would never pick one up. Why should computers be treated any differently?

Is access to a blowtorch, a soldering iron, and a pneumatic drill restricted?

Re:Is access to those restricted

[SoulNibbler]

define blowtorch, in colloquial american english it seems to be a Propane or Oxy-Propane/MAPP torch. If thats what the parent is refering to I've used all 3 within the last year. My first date with my gf was introducing her to glass-working using the lab's Oxy-H torch and she started with fused quartz. I would argue if acess is available and some sort of guide or manual is near many people will pick up any old tool if they think it will help with the job.

Your employer can provide a PC

[tepples]

I write books or articles I need a keyboard

The iPad has always supported Bluetooth keyboards.

I take photo for even 10% of my job I need a computer with photoshop etc. I edit video even at the level of simple cutting I need a computer. I troubleshoot machinery with hardware interfaces I need a computer. I am building a $20,000 custom piece of lab equipment I need a computer.

If you need a computer for your job, your employer can provide one for you. This doesn't mean people need a computer at home.

Re:Your employer can provide a PC

[guy5000]

There are a lot of self employed photographers and video people.
Good luck with your 3 dollar keyboard with a 25 cent Bluetooth chip that's marked up to 20 dollars when there is RFI, a ban on wireless transmissions or a bug in Bluetooth radio.

Better than other things

[SuperKendall]

Calling a tablet a creation tool is like cutting off a painter's hands and then letting him create his next masterpiece.

No, that's like trying to draw anything using a mouse...

Tablets are a significant step up in terms of lots of artistic kinds of creation. And they are at level with text creation when simply paired with a keyboard.

Re:40+ years later, PCs still haven't gotten it ri

[socceroos]

PCs get viruses.

Everything gets viruses. This isn't limited to 'PCs'.

Xerox PARC had no follow-through

[Bob Munck]

PARC was wonderful at the conceptual stage, but never could do the hard work to come up with a viable product. I was involved in the effort to make the Alto workstation, Ethernet, and Xerox printer into a commercial word processing system suitable for the office (OIS in El Segundo). We discovered quickly that the software produced by PARC was at the level of a grad student's thesis project; it was no more than 10% of a finished product. For example, the MESA compiler had been declared ready for commercial use because it was able to compile itself. It was a wonderful language, served as a basis for Modula-2, Java, and Ada, but the compiler itself was usable only by compiler writers.

Xerox PARC produced wonderful, important concepts, but I'm unable to think of a single important commercial product that came from there. Dynabook is just another example.

Design vs. implementation

[tepples]

You mean, just like running Java Applets in a JVM in your browser?

Yeah, a whole lot of security that gave us.

Sarcasm duly noted. But the Java problems were the result of defective implementation, not poor design of the underlying security model. Defective implementation is what allows iPad jailbreaks in the first place.

Re:Design vs. implementation

[lennier]

But the Java problems were the result of defective implementation, not poor design of the underlying security model.

I think part of the problem is precisely that programmers (and platform designers) think in terms of security models at all. A model is an idealised design which someone can choose to follow, or not.

Security can not be a model. Security must be a law. It must be literally impossible for any code, anywhere in the system, whether third-party or OS code, to violate the security invariants. Period. Exclamation. Underline. Highlight. You should have a tiny, 100% mathematically provably audited security kernel, and the rest should be some kind of interpreted/compiled-on-demand bytecode. There should be no conceivable way for that bytecode to 'break out' of the interpretative sandbox in any possible alignment of universes. And that's perfectly doable, as long as language designers do their job and don't put in exceptions.

The irony is that that's exactly what Java clamed to be. Somehow, and I have no idea how, the implementors of Java decided that they wanted to violate their own security model in the implementation of their own system libraries by shipping native code interfaces (probably for speed), and the fact that this was even possible means that their security model was worth precisely nothing.

If you can't prove mathematically that your code is secure, it isn't. And if it isn't, then you have no business connecting it to an Internet of six billion highly motivated potential botnet zombies.

Re:Design vs. implementation

[tepples]

If you can't prove mathematically that your code is secure, it isn't. And if it isn't, then you have no business connecting it to an Internet of six billion highly motivated potential botnet zombies.

In that case, no code designed for home use should be connected to the Internet because the cost of formal verification is prohibitive.

Is there a Solution in Apple's Own Past?

[Anonymous Coward]

I shutdown my Apple TV and bought a Mac Mini recently because of this very dichotomy. Yes, the Mini costs much more, but (as been indicated by others in this thread) I have not had to upgrade my old Win 7 desktop except for the occasional disk swap. Not being a gamer, a 4 year old machine is fine; but I will move many of my activities to the Mini as a digital hub (connected to a 42 in flat-screen in the living room), and turn the old desktop into a Linux sandbox. No, the Mini doesn't have all the convenience of the Apple TV menus, but the freedom to do anything I care to outweighs the value of the menus; and I can still rent the same content. If I had a larger place, I would likely keep the Apple TV as a display and music remote for the Mini; but not to use as a primary device. The value of an open device just outweighs the "ease-of-use" of an appliance to me. I also expect the Mini to be the replacement for the DVR when the content companies join the 21st century.

I say all this because that is what I seen the iPad as - an appliance. It can't easily run any other OS (unlike my desktop, laptop, or the Mini), and is frozen in time hardware-wise (again unlike my full pc-grade devices). The last time Apple introduced something this constrained - the 128KB Macintosh - I could see Jobs then wanting to fulfill his vision of computing as something done with an "appliance" like device. It just took a long time for the world to catch up with that vision (and I still don't have a bow-tied avatar that I can talk to on my iPad, so that dream has been deferred as well).

I mention the original Macintosh because of the thing I most see missing in the current picture - the 2013 equivalent of HyperCard. We can't change iOS itself, but for those of you reading this that weren't around then, HyperCard offered a new way for ANYONE to program for the Macintosh (but maybe not that original 128KB Mac; hard to remember when the memory supported this application - could have been later). The concept of having a computing appliance (which all Macs were until the desktop models became available) with a simple-to-use programming tool was widely accepted as a "compromise" in my mind. While you needed real tools to do applications for the OS like Word or Excel and the rest, there was a large user-based culture around Hyper-Card as well. Not really "programming" but a lot of innovative content was produced and shared.

The current generation of iOS-based appliances however only seem to want users as consumers - you can buy lots of creative applications for the iPad from the AppStore, but why not something like a development environment that lets users experiment? Something that would let you use programming content created by others, like the way early Mac users could share HyperCard stacks? This is just one small aspect of the strategy Alan Kay is questioning. I for one understand the value of having machines that are easy to use and "less work for admins"; just like I don't need a Ferrari to drive to the grocery store, I am happy to use my iOS devices for what they were designed to do. At the same time, having Apple tell me "We don't want you driving to the grocery store with a Ferrari" is what this is all about. Both the PC world and the MAC world were much better because of their openness, at least until the last 7-8 years when it became more about packaging as much as possible into smaller and lighter devices. So I don't think the appliance nature of iOS will be changed; but why can't we also have these new devices encourage bottom-up innovation at the same time by the largest number of users? How do we enable the iOS equivalent of alternative music and independent films (two examples of what I view as "bottom up" ecosystems), if the means to make and distribute the applications used on these devices must be centrally managed by Apple alone?

...including if your employer is yourself

[tepples]

There are a lot of self employed photographers

Then allow me to amend my statement of this position: Self-employed people who need a PC can buy a PC. But this doesn't mean people who aren't self-employed need a computer at home, and the majority of people are not self-employed.

a ban on wireless transmissions

You make a good point here. I'll have to bring up typing on a tablet on an airplane the next time someone suggests a tablet as a laptop replacement.

Re:...including if your employer is yourself

[guy5000]

Tablets cannot read optical media unlike a laptop. There are people with audio cds that want to convert them or photos they ordered on cd-r from a photo lab. Are there tablets that can read flash drives which I would consider a good alternative?

External optical drive

[tepples]

Tablets cannot read optical media unlike a laptop.

Nor can my laptop without an external optical drive. In theory, inability to use a USB optical drive is a driver problem, and my laptop reads and writes optical media fine through an Iomega SuperSlim DVD drive that I bought through Dell.com. In practice, Apple has anticompetitive reasons to refuse to provide an appropriate driver for iOS.

There are people with audio cds that want to convert them

Instead of buying audio CDs, buy iTunes. Apple has anticompetitive reasons to block the use of used CDs from a pawn shop.

or photos they ordered on cd-r from a photo lab.

Then order the photos on download from the photo lab.

Are there tablets that can read flash drives which I would consider a good alternative?

Apple makes a camera connection kit with a 30-pin iPad connector that can read USB flash drives and SD cards. Accessories for Lightning are also available: an SD card reader and USB MSC reader that work with Photos.