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US DOJ Say They Don't Need Warrants For E-Mail, Chats

gannebraemorr writes "The U.S. Department of Justice and the FBI believe they don't need a search warrant to review Americans' e-mails, Facebook chats, Twitter direct messages, and other private files, internal documents reveal. Government documents obtained by the American Civil Liberties Union and provided to CNET show a split over electronic privacy rights within the Obama administration, with Justice Department prosecutors and investigators privately insisting they're not legally required to obtain search warrants for e-mail."

457 comments

  1. "split" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Keep knock'n back that cool-aid

  2. Land of the free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    to be watched by the Government.

    1. Re:Land of the free by Joce640k · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Why isn't all email encrypted yet?

      All we need is email programs that perform a Diffie-Hellman key exchange during the first few emails you exchange with anybody (add an attachment the the email which the user never sees). After two or three emails exchanged, you're encrypted. Why isn't it being done?

      I'm guessing the men in black SUVs pay visits to anybody who attempts it. What's the explanation if not...?

      --
      No sig today...
    2. Re:Land of the free by netwarerip · · Score: 5, Insightful

      ....... What's the explanation if not...?

      Likely because 99.86% of the people that use email can't even pronounce Diffie-Hellman, let alone know what it is.

    3. Re:Land of the free by defaria · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Because it's difficult to understand and difficult to use and most people don't know and don't care about encryption. You don't need to put on your beany hat and start conspiracy theories with men in black SUVs - I tried to use encryption and by and large the people I tried it with were nothing but confused and couldn't see the value in it.

    4. Re:Land of the free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It can easily be done. it's even native to outlook. just most people don't care enough to exchange keys.

    5. Re:Land of the free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      They don't need to be able to pronounce Diffie-Hellman. GP said that the attachment would even be hidden.

      All of us know the reason why S/MIME, GnuPG, and GP's scheme will never be implemented is because of Outlook and other proprietary clients that make dealing with those technologies a royal pain in the ass even for technical users. I remember Outlook 2003 had an implementation of S/MIME, but it failed the "just works" test badly.

      Now, I remember using KMail when KDE used to be good in the 3.x days. Integration with S/MIME and GnuPG were practically seamless. The question to ask is not whether end users should need to know what Diffie-Hellman even is, but why major vendors like Microsoft and Google have absolutely no interest in supporting these technologies in a seamless, under-the-hood way.

      Hell, at work, we have a proprietary software package that handles outbound email. The only encryption it supports looks like some piss-poor ROT13 with XOR implementation, and you need to install a desktop Windows-only program to decrypt the mail. This vendor knows that businesses like the one I work for not only have to deal with HIPAA ePHI, but we're now regulated by the HITECH act. Where's any initiative from them to even offer S/MIME or some kind of web-based message center that isn't a complete joke? There is none.

      Fortunately, TLS is becoming more common for server-to-server relay, but there seems to be no big business interest in enabling the encryption to happen on the end user's desktop. I'd get my tinfoil hat out, but I have a feeling that the answer is that it just isn't a big priority for these vendors because the end user isn't even aware of the problem. We can get our green URL bars for Verisign-approved shopping carts, but there's no interest in that green bar I used to see in KMail that told me that an email had been encrypted and signature verified as having been sent by who I thought sent it.

      Maybe most folks think that as long as they don't send credit card info over email, it's good enough. Who knows.

    6. Re:Land of the free by krept · · Score: 1

      And those who do know / care already use it.

      --
      None of us know everything. Therefore we're all naïve.
    7. Re:Land of the free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know a word of .NET and that means I can't run programs. Oh, wait...

    8. Re:Land of the free by AnttiV · · Score: 2

      The parent was just wondering WHY it is still "difficult to understand and difficult to use", if done so as the parent described, the user wouldn't even have to KNOW it was encrypted. If the email software did it automatically, it would not be any more difficult to use than "send a carbon copy", probably even easier because it would only require one checkbox.

      There was, once, a program that did exactly that. It integrated PGP encryption/key-exchange very well, so the user was only required to initially input her public key. Probably. I don't remember that much, it was years and years ago. (the app in question was PMMail for OS/2, if anyone was interested.)

    9. Re:Land of the free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Why isn't all email encrypted yet?

      Because its useless for most people. If the encryption is truly end to end, then the common web mail providers can't read it, and thus can't use it for targeting ads, so there is no reason for them to provide email at all. If the web mail provider holds the keys, then the government can just ask them for the email.

      For this to have any hope, we need everyone to stop using free web mail. Note that this reasoning regarding ad targeting is invalid for paid services (and personal mail servers obviously)

      Hey Google: I'll gladly pay a subscription to have my g-mail client side encrypted and decrypted. Problem solved.

      Ok, I likely could use a third party mail client, and overlay the encryption, but wouldn't it be nice if g-mail offered (on by default) encrypted email, and if you were willing to pay, only you held the keys? They could well integrate it, and with their user base, g-mail to g-mail would be common enough to get it started and supported elsewhere.

    10. Re:Land of the free by quarrelinastraw · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Because many email providers -- such as gmail, hotmail, yahoo, etc -- want to read your email to serve you ads. Encryption runs counter to the profit motive.

    11. Re:Land of the free by dinfinity · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Because major webmail providers don't really want email to be encrypted.
      Google/Gmail could easily push it and make it happen, but they would just be throwing money away by not being able to profile their users anymore.

      If everybody were still using Outlook Express and/or Thunderbird and ISP provided email accounts, there would have been loads of easy install plugins that would allow cross-client encryption.

    12. Re:Land of the free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Outlook Express won't let them.

    13. Re:Land of the free by Flere+Imsaho · · Score: 1

      Exactly. At least turn on TLS. It's far from perfect, but it's a good start.

      --
      It gripped her hand gently. 'Regret is for humans,' it said.
    14. Re:Land of the free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Nothing about Gmail (which allows IMAP) prevents you from doing your own encryption of the messages. I'm guessing this is true of other major providers too.
      It is also conceivable that Google could implement encryption with a back door. There's just no demand. Most people are just sending pictures of cats. Or, maybe, those pictures are stenographic. In which case, everyone is using encryption but you.

    15. Re:Land of the free by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      Well the obvious solution is good marketing + transparency that the end user never sees. Similar to SSL handoffs, or well maybe you don't remember the first iteration of web browsers that didn't have that, but could have it if you "chanted in a full moon, in a bucket of octopus, while screaming at the top of your lungs: Yti-sec-mee-GI!" Oh and it was broken, so very broken until it became a defacto standard.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    16. Re:Land of the free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Microsoft eXchange...

      Yup, the borg really screwed the U.S. of A. (tha country that made billions for him) and he don't care!

    17. Re:Land of the free by lazyDog86 · · Score: 1

      +1 there, brother. That's exactly what I was going to say. If they can't read your messages, they aren't going to give you the service for free.

      --
      my insights may be modded Funny, but at least some of my jokes are modded Insightful
    18. Re:Land of the free by amiga3D · · Score: 2

      It's not difficult to use but it is more effort than it's worth. The fact is that most e-mail is innocuous BS that is important only to the people communicating. I genuinely don't care enough to bother and if Big Brother wants to read all my boring correspondence he can have at it. I can't really understand anyone being so stupid as to do anything incriminating in writing anyway. What's up with that? Who is out there that is under the illusion that their correspondence is actually private?

    19. Re:Land of the free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like a failing of programmers.

      I don't need to know wtf that is to have encrypted email, all it takes is for the software developers to make it happen. I can't make a microprocessor, but I can use it.

      I get that you got all kinds of karma for that post, but it makes no sense at all.

    20. Re:Land of the free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why isn't all email encrypted yet?

      The reason you haven't seen it yet is because people do not take the privacy of any and all communications seriously. They see no inherent value in encrypting casual communication, which by definition raises the value and profile of encrypted communication.

      It is more of a societal issue than a technological issue, although the Engineering is also daunting.

    21. Re:Land of the free by spire3661 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      People who have read the Constitution, thats who.

      --
      Good-bye
    22. Re:Land of the free by Xaedalus · · Score: 2

      I have read the Constitution, and I still side with Amiga. Why do you think you're THAT important?

      --
      Here's to hot beer, cold women, and Glaswegian kisses for all.
    23. Re:Land of the free by spire3661 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Did you somehow skip this part? "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.[1]"

      Considering all email as searchable is certainly an unreasonable overstepping of authority.

      --
      Good-bye
    24. Re:Land of the free by jc42 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Did you somehow skip this part? "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.[1]"

      Ah, but you forgot the extension to all US laws that applies in this case: "... except when a computer is involved."

      A well-established principle in US (and most other) law is that if there's a computer involved, all precedent is forgotten, and the lessons of centuries of legal progress must be learned all over again.

      That clause in the US constitution was there because so many previous governments had done exactly what the US government is now doing with "computerized" communication. The folks who wrote that constitution wanted to prevent the abuses that governments had always foisted on their citizens. But modern people seem to accept the "except when there's a computer involved" qualification, so all those old abuses are being re-implemented online, and we'll have to fight all those old battles again before such safeguards are extended to the digital parts of our modern world.

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    25. Re:Land of the free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The capability for simple email encryption has been there since PGP but it's rare enough that you risk your communication becoming "interesting" simply by taking that extra precaution of encrypting it. So yeah: paranoid if you do, paranoid if you don't.

    26. Re:Land of the free by niftymitch · · Score: 1

      They don't need to be able to pronounce Diffie-Hellman. GP said that the attachment would even be hidden.

      ---snip---

      I did not see where anyone addressed multiple To/Cc recipients.

      If you and I have exchanged keys one way or another it is possible for us to communicate in a secure way. The others on the To/Cc/Bcc lists are not in the game.

      The larger the list the more opportunity to expose keys or key information to prying eyes.

      Since much email has multiple destinations even if one is "sentmail" the issue is real.

      One interesting option for cloud mail might be "store-encrypted+enter-key". In this case once read mail would move from a normal transport mode to "customer" encrypted. This keeps saved mail from prying eyes by contract and mandates that the legal action be made on the content owner not the ISP.

      Key management is still the bugger.... a lost key is lost data.

      --
      Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
    27. Re:Land of the free by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 3, Insightful

      you have it backwards.

      why do the 'watchers' think THEY are so important that they get to violate our privacy?

      yes, right to have your papers and posessions secure from undue seizure and search. its written. go look it up!

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    28. Re: Land of the free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh geez. It's not about being important. If you actually read the constitution you would know that.

    29. Re:Land of the free by Lord+Kano · · Score: 1

      To pick a nit. I have read the constitution and I don't believe that my correspondence is private. I do, however, believe that it should be private.

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
    30. Re:Land of the free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except if you're encrypting in order to profit from from the limited availability of the information you're sending in the email.

    31. Re:Land of the free by pantaril · · Score: 1

      Because it's difficult to understand and difficult to use and most people don't know and don't care about encryption.

      Users don't need to understand encryption to use it.
      It is not dificult to use if implemented correctly by e-mail clients. Users would just write an e-mail like they normaly do, the e-mail client would handle the encryption (send user's public key in outgoing e-mail headers, use recipient public key to encrypt any outgoin e-mail if it is available).
      Most people care about encyption. How many users do you know which don't care if their e-mails are being read by middle-mans?

    32. Re:Land of the free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks to the USA Patriot act none of the usual constitutional protections apply(in general, not only with regard to computer data). The USDOJ pretty much have carte blanche.

    33. Re:Land of the free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Email is sent unencrypted over networks. It's as constitutionally questionable as watching FTA television with your home-made dish setup, or tuning into an FM radio station from some other country or videotaping in public.

      If it is out in the open, unencrypted or obfuscated it is fair game to be analyzed or intercepted.

    34. Re:Land of the free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just because your paranoid doesn't mean their not out to get you -

      If everyone had encryption on their email how would "They" monitor us?

    35. Re: Land of the free by just+fiddling+around · · Score: 1

      I know of a system that did PKE right: Lotus Notes. There was a nice checkbox to make it sign every mail you sent, every user had a keypair, you could verify both sender and content with a click. You could even prohibit printing ou copying an individual email.
      It is universally despised.

      --
      You're not old until regret takes the place of your dreams.
    36. Re:Land of the free by dl_sledding · · Score: 1

      Well, computers and phones and tablets and cellphones and all these other newfangled gadgets weren't around when the Forefathers framed the Constitution, so they didn't even conceive that those media would exist, so they aren't protected by the privace and s&s parts of the Bill of Rights.

      Just like high-cap magazines, semi-automatic weapons, and other modern firearms. Which is why Feinstein says they should be banned, because the Forefathers had no idea that those evil thingies would be thought up by the mind of man. Apparantly she thinks that the Forefathers were dull-witted, backwards-thinking, "inside the box" types with no imagination or forethought to the future.

      JMO

    37. Re:Land of the free by dinfinity · · Score: 1

      Nothing about Gmail (which allows IMAP) prevents you from doing your own encryption of the messages.

      No shit. That's why I never implied that such was the case.

      The point is that it could have been ridiculously easy by now and that Google could have pushed to make it that way, but they have an incentive not to do so.

    38. Re: Land of the free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can get encrypted e-mail. A company called Hushmail will do encrypted docs from your keyboard to the other party's keyboard. Read of them at "www.hushmail.com". Also chat and video chat.

    39. Re:Land of the free by Man+Eating+Duck · · Score: 1

      Because many email providers -- such as gmail, hotmail, yahoo, etc -- want to read your email to serve you ads. Encryption runs counter to the profit motive.

      Of course they don't want it -- I suspect that EULA measures against it might surface if usage were widespread -- but it's also a user issue. I have my GPG/PGP public key readily available, and tried to encourage my friends to use it.

      Setting up GPG is less complicated than configuring XBMC, which lots of people do, and plugin integration with Gmail is trivial. The perceived benefit is probably too low, however, as even my techie friends never used it beyond the first test email.

      --
      Are you a grammar Nazi? I'm trying to improve my English; please correct my errors! :)
  3. Fourth Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

    1. Re:Fourth Amendment by zlives · · Score: 5, Funny

      when the government does it, that means that it is not unreasonable.

    2. Re:Fourth Amendment by Bugler412 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And the entirety of the 4th amendment is eliminated by storing your data on somebody else's system since it's no longer considered part of YOUR "persons, houses, papers, and effects" Still like "the cloud"?

    3. Re:Fourth Amendment by CanHasDIY · · Score: 3, Informative

      And the entirety of the 4th amendment is eliminated by storing your data on somebody else's system since it's no longer considered part of YOUR "persons, houses, papers, and effects"

      Still like "the cloud"?

      Bullshit - my papers and effects are my papers and effects, regardless of where I keep them.

      Could you imagine how hard it would be for banks to sell safety deposit space, if there was no guarantee other people weren't able to rifle through your shit?

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    4. Re:Fourth Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The law does not matter when is the Government is in charge of defining it.

    5. Re:Fourth Amendment by funwithBSD · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think you got that backwards, or forgot the /sarcasm tag:

      Searches by government are by definition unreasonable, thus they need a warrent.

      --
      Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
    6. Re:Fourth Amendment by Bugler412 · · Score: 2

      Not talking about how it should, talking about how it is currently being interpreted by the courts and the DOJ

    7. Re:Fourth Amendment by fatalwall · · Score: 1

      Technically incorrect. If what you said is true then anything you placed inside a bank locker would be subject to the same searches. The manner you pay a company for services matters not.

      People so readily try to throw out amendments because technology has changed when in reality an email would fall under the class of papers because papers are documents emails are electronic documents and your computer or cloud service is the filing cabinet or vault you store them in.

      That being said, I do not like the services people describe as the cloud as its just a new marketing term to cover a type of service that has existed for years without any legal confusion until it became wide spread for consumers and took on the name cloud.

    8. Re:Fourth Amendment by Feyshtey · · Score: 1

      Bullshit argument. If I store my bag in a locker at the gym it does not give right to the govt to search that simply because the locker is technically owned by the gym. I have procured the authority to use that locker as my personal space. The same could be said of a storage unit. Now there may be a grey area in the case of the owner of the storage location (whether that is a locker, a storage unit or Gmail) allowing govt access without a warrant. But that's where contracts and contract law come into play. If my contract states that I have exclusive rights to that storage location then the owner cant grant anyone access, including themselves, without a legitimate reason to do so. And a cop saying "open up" isnt a legitimate reason.

      --
      "But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it,..." - Nancy Pelosi
    9. Re:Fourth Amendment by Zcar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Safety deposit boxes are different since you have a lock on it.

      If I simply give you an unsealed packet of papers, I am assuming the risk you'll had those over to the government if they ask you for them even if I ask you not to. There's no 4th amendment protection under those circumstances. This is analogous to using a web mail provider like gmail, hotmail, etc. where you're asking them to store plain text emails. You've arguably lost the 4th amendment protections in this case. Any protections are statutory, not constitutional.

    10. Re:Fourth Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yea, that'll work, you keep spouting that while they go through your stuff.

    11. Re:Fourth Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Would you imagine how hard it would be for banks to sell safety deposit space, if there was no guarantee other people weren't able to rifle through your shit?

      There is a good reason that I do not own a safe deposit box.

    12. Re:Fourth Amendment by CanHasDIY · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Safety deposit boxes are different since you have a lock on it.

      If I simply give you an unsealed packet of papers, I am assuming the risk you'll had those over to the government if they ask you for them even if I ask you not to. There's no 4th amendment protection under those circumstances. This is analogous to using a web mail provider like gmail, hotmail, etc. where you're asking them to store plain text emails.

      OK, then go access my gmail account and post all the content therein online.

      Oh, wait, you can't, because that account has a fucking lock on it, that only I (and Google, supposedly) have a key to.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    13. Re:Fourth Amendment by MrHanky · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Slashdot: where obvious jokes are lost.

    14. Re:Fourth Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      All it can possibly do is convince people reading it that, somewhere out there, there is actually a horde of people who legitimately believe this.

      There is actually a horde. They are called the Government and their operatives.

    15. Re:Fourth Amendment by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      Bullshit argument. If I store my bag in a locker at the gym it does not give right to the govt to search that simply because the locker is technically owned by the gym. I have procured the authority to use that locker as my personal space.

      So you know that you've rented that locked space with the expectation of privacy and extension of your personal space. Storage lockers, ditto. When you rent an apartment, ditto.

      But if you simply give your stuff to someone else, you lose that protection. I pay nothing to Google for their gmail. It's on their servers.

      And now IEEE has announced that they will be moving their mail alias services to Google and giving members free access to Google Stuff (I forget all the details.) So, here's another example of someone handing your data over to a company where it loses any expectation of privacy or limits on search.

    16. Re:Fourth Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, you don't think that the bank doesn't have a way to get into security boxes too? The banks all have master keys or at least tools to crack open a box if you don't want to give the key up.

    17. Re:Fourth Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why? Because there weren't any safe deposit box seizures, and those that were taken possession of due to bank failure were either claimed by the owners or still in the basement of the treasury? Is that your good reason

    18. Re:Fourth Amendment by thoth · · Score: 2

      Bullshit - my papers and effects are my papers and effects, regardless of where I keep them.

      Could you imagine how hard it would be for banks to sell safety deposit space, if there was no guarantee other people weren't able to rifle through your shit?

      It comes down to the legal argument over an expectation of privacy. You expect a bank to keep the contents of a safety deposit box private. Arguing unencrypted emails, facebook posts, tweets, etc. You expect your home to be private. Claiming you expect email (especially unencrypted ones), facebook posts and twitter messages to be treated with the same privacy is a stretch of varying degrees. Some of the methods are 100% opposite the "expectation of privacy", e.g. people participating want to reach as many others as possible.

    19. Re:Fourth Amendment by lgw · · Score: 1

      You linked to the article explaining "the myth of a safe deposit box seizures order". You might try reading your own links sometime, rather than believing internet rumor.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    20. Re:Fourth Amendment by interval1066 · · Score: 1

      There is a good reason that I do not own a safe deposit box.

      IF your bank fails. Obama has seen to it that they won't (to the detriment of us all, oh well), so I'll be keeping my box for a bit longer I think.

      --
      Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
    21. Re:Fourth Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So, by you, police do not need a warrant to search your apartment? After all, your apartment is not YOURS.

    22. Re:Fourth Amendment by Meeni · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Voice over phone line is in "clear", and ATT could listen to it. Yet it is still required to have warrant to bug the line. I fail to see what is different with my emails. They are traveling "the infrastructure" in clear, that doesn't mean they are intended to be read by every bystander. As a matter of fact, somebody got a very harsh sentence for intruding onto S. Palin's mailboxes and revealing the content of these emails, so it seems to be quite clear and settled that emails are not to be considered public by default.

    23. Re:Fourth Amendment by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      Don't forget to finish with a

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    24. Re:Fourth Amendment by thoth · · Score: 1

      Argh cut and paste and preview fail. Oh well. Sentence 3 obviously misplaced and rewritten. ;)

    25. Re:Fourth Amendment by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      ... broken hyperlink.

      Let's try that again!

      Don't forget to finish with a nice little seizure!

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    26. Re:Fourth Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The Sarah Palin email hack occurred on September 16, 2008.... The incident was ultimately prosecuted in a U.S. federal court as four felony crimes punishable by up to 50 years in federal prison.[3][4] The charges were three felonies: identity theft, wire fraud, and anticipatory obstruction of justice; and one optional as felony or misdemeanor: intentionally accessing an account without authorization.

      If emails etc are not expected to be private, why is it a felony crime to access someone else's email?

    27. Re:Fourth Amendment by ShaunC · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Of course, but a warrant is required for that.

      --
      Thanks to the War on Drugs, it's easier to buy meth than it is to buy cold medicine!
    28. Re:Fourth Amendment by sycodon · · Score: 2

      So...according to the Government, the second Amendment only protects Muskets and the 4th only protects snail mail.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    29. Re:Fourth Amendment by CanHasDIY · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Bullshit - my papers and effects are my papers and effects, regardless of where I keep them.

      Could you imagine how hard it would be for banks to sell safety deposit space, if there was no guarantee other people weren't able to rifle through your shit?

      It comes down to the legal argument over an expectation of privacy. You expect a bank to keep the contents of a safety deposit box private. Arguing unencrypted emails, facebook posts, tweets, etc.

      False equivalence - An email is a direct communication between two parties, whereas facebook posts and tweets are publicly posted.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    30. Re:Fourth Amendment by anagama · · Score: 4, Informative

      Bullshit - my papers and effects are my papers and effects, regardless of where I keep them.

      This should not be labeled informative because it is likely to get people into serious shit.

      Under the third-party records doctrine, a person cannot assert a Fourth Amendment interest in information knowingly provided to a third party. If strict application of the doctrine ever served us well, it no longer does, leading to absurd results. This is particularly true in an age where so much more information is communicated through intermediaries. ....

      http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/article/the_data_question_should_the_third-party_records_doctrine_be_revisited/

      The doctrine holds that law enforcement does not need a warrant to search and seize information lawfully held by third parties, such as online file hosting services like Dropbox or online email providers like Gmail. Nojeim argues that the third-party records doctrine is outdated and an ill-suited legal standard for today's digital world. For example, people can use physical storage lockers rented out to them by a third party -- that is, a locker rental company -- and retain a warrant protection for their property stored in the lockers. However, if people use an online storage service provided by a third party, their warrant protection is lost.

      https://www.cdt.org/blogs/suchismita-pahi/0108whats-wrong-third-party-doctrine-and-einstein-30

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    31. Re:Fourth Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      that's only for the front door.

      google has this thing called the back door - the plain text files that hold your e-mail.
      no password required to access them, read them, copy them.

      that's what they are talking about.

      if you don't like it, talk to google, facebook, etc. etc. etc. to force them to encrypt those files so they can only be opened by your *key* that is accessed by your userid/password.

      all smtp mail systems store e-mail unencrypted by default.

    32. Re:Fourth Amendment by CanHasDIY · · Score: 2

      I pay nothing to Google for their gmail.

      Ooooh, yes you do. Perhaps not with dollars and cents, but you definitely pay for it.

      Best to never forget that.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    33. Re:Fourth Amendment by netwarerip · · Score: 1

      Bullshit - my papers and effects are my papers and effects, regardless of where I keep them.

      This is likely coming from someone that has never had a wife or girlfriend change the locks on an apartment that is rented in her name only. Good luck getting your papers and effects when that happens.
      Oh wait, this is slashdot....let me rephrase.
      This is likely coming from someone that has never had a wife or girlfriend.

    34. Re:Fourth Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you think about sending an email, it is the equivalent of sending a postcard compared to a letter... A postcard anyone who handles it between point A and B can read what is on that postcard compared to a letter they would need to open to read. An email travels over many servers and anyone who is receiving that email while it passes thru their servers could technically read the contents. A very good reason why you should not trust any form of digital communication without using encryption.

      Still, I think the government should respect email because most Americans are not aware of how the technical details work... But then again, most Americans are not aware of all the rules to basic law and lawyers and court's make a killing from the ignorant.

    35. Re:Fourth Amendment by netwarerip · · Score: 5, Informative

      Coming from a former bank guy, they don't have keys to the customer's lock. They do, however, have a maintenance guy with a powerful drill.

    36. Re:Fourth Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      euh...

      Title says : "US DOJ Say They Don't Need Warrants For ===>E-Mail=== (In your email account), Chats

    37. Re:Fourth Amendment by anagama · · Score: 2

      It is bullshit ... but ....you might be quite stunned by the reach of the third party doctrine, i.e., you give up your rights to privacy when you entrust stuff to a third party.

      At Linux Fest NW, the ACLU and EFF put on a presentation and one of the topics was the third party doctrine. The consensus was that the doctrine might not apply if you bought a server and collocated it. It would likely apply to virtual private servers, almost certainly to shared hosting accounts, and definitely for any service provided by an ISP (your email, or gmail, yahoo mail etc.).

      Yeah -- it's bullshit for sure. But that's the state of the law.

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    38. Re:Fourth Amendment by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 0

      And the entirety of the 4th amendment is eliminated by storing your data on somebody else's system since it's no longer considered part of YOUR "persons, houses, papers, and effects"

      Still like "the cloud"?

      Bullshit - my papers and effects are my papers and effects, regardless of where I keep them.

      Could you imagine how hard it would be for banks to sell safety deposit space, if there was no guarantee other people weren't able to rifle through your shit?

      But a safe deposit box contains personal property. Your emails and other electronic data is not personal property it is a bunch of electrons. Now, if those electrons are stored on your own hard drive, then it is still on your personal property. OTOH, if they are stored in the cloud, it may be your data, but it is no longer your personal property, at least as defined in the 4th amendment.

    39. Re:Fourth Amendment by Dishevel · · Score: 1

      Well everybody's heard about the Cloud !
      Cloud Cloud Cloud, the Cloud is the Noun !

      Now it rhymes. Like a song or a poem.
      You know like the thing you thought you were posting.

      --
      Why is it so hard to only have politicians for a few years, then have them go away?
    40. Re:Fourth Amendment by blueg3 · · Score: 3, Informative

      So, by you, police do not need a warrant to search your apartment? After all, your apartment is not YOURS.

      Not true, actually. In the US, a renter has the right of possession of his apartment but not the right of ownership. Thus your apartment is "yours" in a legally meaningful sense. (It is also, in another sense, the owner's.) The owner has the right of ownership but not of possession (he's rented that right out to the renter). As such, in many states, it's illegal for the owner to enter the apartment without the renter's permission.

    41. Re:Fourth Amendment by anagama · · Score: 1

      That's exactly why any obvious thing done "on the internet" is patentable.

      The internet is just sooooo different from what came before. /sarcasm

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    42. Re:Fourth Amendment by DrJimbo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The GP said:

      when the government does it, that means that it is not unreasonable.

      Richard Milhous Nixon (who was forced to resign from the presidency of the United States due to his many flagrantly illegal acts) said:

      Well, when the president does it, that means that it is not illegal.

      Please don't speak for me and please don't include me in the group "everyone". I don't think the GP was being fucking retarded and counterproductive. Even though this is Slashdot, the GP's wit was not lost to all readers.

      --
      We don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are.
      -- Anais Nin
    43. Re:Fourth Amendment by ZombieBraintrust · · Score: 1

      Anything protected by password has an expectation of privacy. If I set Facebook to only show my posts to freinds then those posts are private. Emails they intercept that are unencrypted might be considered public. (except that Congress has made it law that a warrent is needed for emial less than 180 days old) So those unencrypted emails sent over the wire are private by statute.

    44. Re:Fourth Amendment by bbelt16ag · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "it is not the breaking of a man's doors and the rummaging of his drawers that constitutes the essence of the offense; but it is the invasion oh his indefeasible right of personal security, personal liberty and private property, where that right has never been forfeited by his conviction of some public offense" Quote from Justice Joseph P. Bradley

      --
      NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER GIVE UP! "No limitations, no boundaries, there is no reason for them."
    45. Re:Fourth Amendment by ZombieBraintrust · · Score: 1

      False equivalence - An email is a direct communication between two parties, whereas facebook posts and tweets are publicly posted.

      Facebook posts are not public when you choose to make them visible only to friends. Twitter also has the option to limit your tweets to people you approve. Since you are acting as a gatekeeper this content has an expectation of privacy.

    46. Re:Fourth Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your sarcasm is lost in the text. All it can possibly do is convince people reading it that, somewhere out there, there is actually a horde of people who legitimately believe this.

      Funny, because it was obvious to me that they were simply reworking a famous quote of one Mr Richard Milhous Nixon.

    47. Re:Fourth Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nonsense. Why rationalize the government's evil? They don't deserve it.

    48. Re:Fourth Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It comes down to the legal argument over an expectation of privacy.

      The problem is, the current legal "interpretation" beggars logic. If there really were no expectation of privacy among e-mail, stories like this wouldn't even be news. Of course there's an expectation of privacy with e-mail: that's why we have passwords, why it's illegal to snoop on someone else's e-mail, etcetera. People do generally expect this information to be private.

      The only way this interpretation flies is apparently because we're coming to disbelieve the Fourth Amendment and just expect that everything we do is being snooped on by the government. That's circular bullshit and not how the Fourth is supposed to work.

    49. Re:Fourth Amendment by bbelt16ag · · Score: 1

      well, it seems people are stupid and don't understand the DOJ don't need a warrant for this. If they want the law to change they should do something about it.

      --
      NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER GIVE UP! "No limitations, no boundaries, there is no reason for them."
    50. Re:Fourth Amendment by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      Unless it's email.

      Whoosh?

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    51. Re:Fourth Amendment by pdabbadabba · · Score: 1

      Yeah. The problem is that, to the extent that DOJ reacts quickly to the emergence of new technologies (and it does) then it has the ability to shape perceptions of what is and is not private through proclamations like this.

      If DOJ (and, to be fair, certain private actors) had treated email like private papers in the first place, different expectations might have evolved, no?

    52. Re:Fourth Amendment by Lakitu · · Score: 0

      The two of us understanding the sarcasm has nothing to do with how productive or counterproductive it is.

      These kinds of comments are posted by the dozen, attached to every article with even a remote connection to politics or law, and they ultimately serve no purpose. Is it funny? Does it make you think? Is it enjoyable?

      The answer to all of those is no. It's lazy, without even an ounce of effort going into its writing, and it only engenders similar commentary.

      Your post, for example, would be welcomed for drawing the parallels between how some people apparently behave and the actions of someone like Nixon. The comment I originally applied to doesn't do that and is essentially nothing other than a form of submission to anyone who would impose their will upon the poster.

      If you don't think that's counterproductive, well...

    53. Re:Fourth Amendment by Kryptonian+Jor-El · · Score: 1

      Are you implying that the difference of protons and neutrons is what defines personal property vs non personal property? I'm sure the founding fathers didn't make that distinction

      --
      All your 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 are belong to us
    54. Re:Fourth Amendment by ewieling · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Wouldn't the solution to "the e-mail problem" be to store your e-mail in a country with decent privacy protections and access it using SSL/TLS? It won't won't prevent the US government from accessing your e-mail if they really want to, but it is a start.

      --
      I really shouldn't have used someone else's email address for this account.
    55. Re:Fourth Amendment by Zak3056 · · Score: 1

      But if you simply give your stuff to someone else, you lose that protection. I pay nothing to Google for their gmail. It's on their servers.

      I find that to be an indefensible position. Just because Google has my data on their servers does NOT mean that the government has the right to access that data (or at least, according to a simple reading of the 4th amendment, SHOULD not mean so). Things are different if Google decides to give my data to the government--the government didn't violate my privacy, Google did, and my remedy here is limited to suing Google for breaching my privacy in this way.

      The obvious next step down the slippery slope here is Google agreeing to supply all of my data to the government (in return for some consideration) but I would argue that, at this point, they are functioning as agents of the government, and the 4th amendment again applies.

      I don't believe case law backs my interpretation--but then again, case law says that growing wheat and eating it is "interstate commerce" so YMMV...

      --
      What part of "shall not be infringed" is so hard to understand?
    56. Re:Fourth Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Person? Nope.
      House? Nope.
      Papers? Nope.
      Effects? Nope.

      While it seems reasonable that electronic correspondence would receive the same protections as traditional correspondence, the authors of the 4th amendment didn't anticipate a world where data could be separated from the physical representation of that data. An email you send through Gmail (as an example, to avoid awkwardly saying service provider over and over) isn't stored on your person, in your house, on paper or in your effects. It's stored on a hard drive owned by Google. If Google wants to object to the equipment it owns being searched without a warrant, it's free to do so. But if Google doesn't object, a literal reading of the 4th amendment says its okay for the Government to ask Google for whatever data Google has.

      Like it or not, this will take a Supreme Court ruling to determine that the intent of the 4th amendment covers data as well.

    57. Re:Fourth Amendment by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      I give you: the safety deposit box. Someone else's system, facility, physical locality - but the Government requires a warrant to get into it...

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    58. Re:Fourth Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you're saying that you own the hard drive that your email provider uses to store your email? You're just storing it at their facility, right?

      In 1789, there was no concept of non-physical belongings. So the 4th amendment was written based on that context...it protects you from governmental searches of your physical belongings. When you put things into a safety deposit box, you're putting physical items that are covered by the 4th amendment. The two may be conceptually similar, but the verbiage of the 4th amendment covers one and not the other.

    59. Re:Fourth Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Bullshit - my papers and effects are my papers and effects, regardless of where I keep them. Could you imagine how hard it would be for banks to sell safety deposit space, if there was no guarantee other people weren't able to rifle through your shit?"

      I am not expert on american law, but the tv show breaking bad had an episode where the FBI was able to walk right in on a guy and confiscate all his safety deposit boxes. It surprised me because americans are generally all about unreasonable search laws.

      So I am not sure you are correct, that they are so secure from law enforcement.

    60. Re:Fourth Amendment by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      Technically incorrect. If what you said is true then anything you placed inside a bank locker would be subject to the same searches. The manner you pay a company for services matters not.

      People so readily try to throw out amendments because technology has changed when in reality an email would fall under the class of papers because papers are documents emails are electronic documents and your computer or cloud service is the filing cabinet or vault you store them in.

      That being said, I do not like the services people describe as the cloud as its just a new marketing term to cover a type of service that has existed for years without any legal confusion until it became wide spread for consumers and took on the name cloud.

      The 4th amendment protects personal property. Emails and the like, as long as they are in an electronic format, are not tangible and therefore are not personal property. They are obviously stored on personal property somewhere and if you own that device, it is protected under the 4th amendment. If you do not own it, then the owner has the 4th amendment protection, but you do not. What you have is a contractual agreement with them, so contract law comes into play, but not constitutional law.

      Whether one calls it the cloud, the intranet, the intraweb or the server, if you don't own the physical device that your data is stored on, then it isn't your personal property and the 4th amendment doesn't apply (other laws do, just not the 4th amendment).

    61. Re:Fourth Amendment by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      Phone calls are also electrons or light signals, not personal property.

      Yet a warrant is still needed to monitor them because of privacy.

      Why is there a different standard for email?
      Why would there be a different standard for email.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    62. Re:Fourth Amendment by Agent0013 · · Score: 2

      Ohhh, so that means the movies on bit-torrent are fine to download since they are not actual property and are just a bunch of electrons. I like where this is going!

      --

      -- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
    63. Re:Fourth Amendment by Zcar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      OK, then go access my gmail account and post all the content therein online.

      Oh, wait, you can't, because that account has a fucking lock on it, that only I (and Google, supposedly) have a key to.

      But Google has access to them. And the Third Party Doctrine, endorsed by the US Supreme Court, doesn't extend your 4th Amendment rights to information of yours held and accessible by others.

      If you give me something which would incriminate you in the clear and I put it in a safe (say a letter in an unsealed envelope), all that's needed to require me (under the 4th) to turn that letter over to the government is a subpoena, not a search warrant. If it was in your safe, it would require a search warrant. Having an email in plain text sitting on someone else's hard drive is analogous.

      I'm not saying I agree with this doctrine (I don't), but that's the current state of the law in the US: once your information leaves your possession you've pretty much lost 4th Amendment protections to it from anyone else who obtains it turning it over.

    64. Re:Fourth Amendment by PhxBlue · · Score: 4, Informative

      Because the government hates competition.

      --
      !#@%*)anks for hanging up the phone, dear.
    65. Re:Fourth Amendment by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      Voice over phone line is in "clear", and ATT could listen to it. Yet it is still required to have warrant to bug the line. I fail to see what is different with my emails. They are traveling "the infrastructure" in clear, that doesn't mean they are intended to be read by every bystander. As a matter of fact, somebody got a very harsh sentence for intruding onto S. Palin's mailboxes and revealing the content of these emails, so it seems to be quite clear and settled that emails are not to be considered public by default.

      The reason a warrant is required to tap a phone is not a constitutional law issue but a telecommunication law issue. Because Congress declared it illegal to listen to other people's phone conversations, you need a warrant to do so. S.Palin's mailbox was also not a constitutional law issue. To fall under the 4th amendment, you have to be depriving somebody of their personal property. Stored emails are not personal property. They may be intellectual property, but that is not the same thing. The courts may rule that you need a warrant to access somebody's emails, that is their prerogative. However, if they do, it won't be because of the 4th amendment.

    66. Re:Fourth Amendment by Zcar · · Score: 3, Informative

      Because they don't have access to the contents as part of the ordinary course of maintaining it, thus it's still protected. In fact, many of the procedures around safety deposit boxes are, at least in part, designed such that they keep the bank from being a third party under the doctrine. They never see what you put in it, etc.

    67. Re:Fourth Amendment by suutar · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I wonder what would happen if I used the "use own key" provision for CrashPlan and kept the key on a piece of paper in a safety deposit box. Under this doctrine they can get to the encrypted form, but with "use own key", CrashPlan (in theory) can't decrypt the data, so they need the key... which is somewhere that requires a warrant. (Or at least is going to require a judge to tell me that it doesn't, which I would tend to count as close enough to a court order for jazz.) Seems like that could get me something reasonably close to warrant protection. The downside of course is that switching to "use own key" is going to mean re-uploading all the backed up data.

    68. Re:Fourth Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It is cute when someone quotes a bit of paper as if it is some sort of defense against violence.

      Keep using the constitution as protection from statism, I'll be over here watching your fantasy from a distance.

    69. Re:Fourth Amendment by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      I find that to be an indefensible position. Just because Google has my data on their servers does NOT mean that the government has the right to access that data (or at least, according to a simple reading of the 4th amendment, SHOULD not mean so). Things are different if Google decides to give my data to the government--

      You're contradicting yourself here. If the government says to Google "please show me the email for Zak3056" and Google says "would you like that as a zip or tar file?", then they've decided to give up your data without a warrant. Where's your fourth amendment now? You admit that the government isn't violating your privacy.

      Right, you can sue them. For what? Here's the relevant current privacy policy statement on this, which you have agreed to:

      We will share personal information with companies, organizations or individuals outside of Google if we have a good-faith belief that access, use, preservation or disclosure of the information is reasonably necessary to:

      • meet any applicable law, regulation, legal process or enforceable governmental request.
      • enforce applicable Terms of Service, including investigation of potential violations.
      • detect, prevent, or otherwise address fraud, security or technical issues.
      • protect against harm to the rights, property or safety of Google, our users or the public as required or permitted by law.

      When the government asks, Google believes they are helping detect or prevent security issues. End of your lawsuit, you agree to this. Sorry. Or they are meeting an applicable law or regulation. Or protecting the public. Whatever.

      You have no expectation of privacy when you hand your data over to a company that makes a living using data from people who use their services.

    70. Re:Fourth Amendment by Zcar · · Score: 1

      Specifically, they can subpoena Google for such records and any records provided by Google wouldn't be protected. Technically, for emails there are some statutory protections which need to be met first under the Stored Communications Act, but no Constitutional protections on firm ground currently due to the Third Party Doctrine.

    71. Re:Fourth Amendment by DrJimbo · · Score: 1

      Is it funny?

      Yes.

      Does it make you think?

      Yes.

      Is it enjoyable?

      Yes. Of course, YMMVG on all three points.

      In his most recent book, Liberty and Justice for Some, Glenn Greenwald posits that the flagrant, unpunished, lawlessness in high places which is currently destroying democracy in the United States started with Ford's pardon of Nixon. The other half of Greenwald's argument is that for everyone else, there is no liberty or justice because the government is no longer obeying the Constitution or following due process.

      The subject of this Slashdot article is a perfect example of the second half of Greenwald's argument. In a few short words the GP neatly tied it with the first half. That's why, for me, it was funny and enjoyable and it made me think.

      --
      We don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are.
      -- Anais Nin
    72. Re:Fourth Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All well and good but we have over 200 years of legal cases interpreting how these words apply in specific circumstances. Since we have new technology we must wait until the legal system generates sufficient opinions so one can estimate exactly when a warrant is required. This is a very slow process and what is worse the interpretation of this right will vary from place to place and time to time
      The good news is should you be entrapped by an unwise email obtained without a warrant you have a reasonable chance of getting the evidence thrown out.
      On the other hand, I would argue that it is both naive and unreasonable to expect privacy in email, twitter and similar electronic communications due to the nature of the technology. For years I advised every employee that email was equivalent to sky writing.

    73. Re:Fourth Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not sure that people realize that even for physical mail, the right of privacy is to the recipient not the sender. That is once you send mail it becomes the property of the receiver and not the sender's personal property.

    74. Re:Fourth Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you ignored the whoooosh sound.

    75. Re:Fourth Amendment by amiga3D · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That is the solution to the entire Constitution. Just redefine all the words in it. Define reasonable as whatever the government wants and you are good to go. Hell, Clinton redefined the word "is." Gotta love it.

    76. Re:Fourth Amendment by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      Ohhh, so that means the movies on bit-torrent are fine to download since they are not actual property and are just a bunch of electrons. I like where this is going!

      If your concern is a 4th amendment violation, then yes, you can download them to your heart's content. OTOH, if your concern is with copyright infringement, which is not a constitutional issue, but is still illegal, then you might want to reconsider.

    77. Re:Fourth Amendment by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      Phone calls are also electrons or light signals, not personal property.

      Yet a warrant is still needed to monitor them because of privacy.

      Why is there a different standard for email?
      Why would there be a different standard for email.

      Yes they are and as such aren't protected by the 4th amendment either. That is why we have telecommunication laws. Emails came long after the telecommunication laws were enacted so those laws don't cover emails. There is nothing keeping congress from enacting new laws or amending existing laws, but normally, laws only cover what they say they cover.

    78. Re:Fourth Amendment by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      Are you implying that the difference of protons and neutrons is what defines personal property vs non personal property?

      I'm sure the founding fathers didn't make that distinction

      The founding fathers made that exact argument. If you cant hold it in your had or otherwise posses it, it isn't personal property. As such, protons, neutrons, electrons, quarks, etc. are not personal property in the eyes of the founding fathers or the constitution.

    79. Re:Fourth Amendment by Agent0013 · · Score: 1

      My point was a sarcastic remark on how property for a corporation is treated much differently than people's property. That's all. I guess I should have added the sarcasm tag as it seems lost on some.

      --

      -- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
    80. Re:Fourth Amendment by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      Are you implying that the difference of protons and neutrons is what defines personal property vs non personal property?

      I'm sure the founding fathers didn't make that distinction

      The founding fathers made that exact argument. If you cant hold it in your had or otherwise posses it, it isn't personal property.

      [Citation needed]

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    81. Re:Fourth Amendment by Stan92057 · · Score: 1

      The reason that amendment is not enforced is because us Americans are too stinking lazy to call out our government officials. Fill the capital with a few million people and that might change but complaining about it on Slashdot does nothing. we all can quote the 4th till our mouths bleed it takes real action to get it changed.

      --
      Jack of all trades,master of none
    82. Re:Fourth Amendment by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      I would guess that they are arguing that email is not a paper or effect.

    83. Re:Fourth Amendment by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      and Google

      *and Google*

      AND GOOGLE

      You gave your emails to Google. You no longer have any fourth amendment rights to them, and the Feds can have them any time they feel like asking for them.

    84. Re:Fourth Amendment by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 2

      why is it a felony crime to access someone else's email?

      Because there is a Federal law, passed by Congress, against it. You do not, however, have any *Constitutional right* against the government itself doing so, because the fourth amendment does not apply here.

    85. Re:Fourth Amendment by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      Which country is that?

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    86. Re:Fourth Amendment by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1

      Someone else's system, facility, physical locality

      But your key. The bank doesn't get one. If the bank had access, fourth amendment would not apply.

    87. Re:Fourth Amendment by OzoneLad · · Score: 1

      I didn't know the founding fathers were gypsies...

    88. Re:Fourth Amendment by Lakitu · · Score: 0

      I must read too many of these articles then, because people quoting Nixon (or other slightly less reprehensible characters) all the time has gotten to be repetitive, along the lines of godwin's law or "just a piece of paper".

      In his most recent book, Liberty and Justice for Some, Glenn Greenwald posits that the flagrant, unpunished, lawlessness in high places which is currently destroying democracy in the United States started with Ford's pardon of Nixon. The other half of Greenwald's argument is that for everyone else, there is no liberty or justice because the government is no longer obeying the Constitution or following due process.

        The subject of this Slashdot article is a perfect example of the second half of Greenwald's argument. In a few short words the GP neatly tied it with the first half. That's why, for me, it was funny and enjoyable and it made me think.

      I wouldn't really disagree with that. Especially nerve-grating is how so many people, from every bit of the political spectrum, look to the President as being able to wield some kind of magical powers over society. A significant percentage of children and adults wouldn't even be able to express what the President's actual job is, in large part because of how pervasive this kind of conversation has become -- also seeming to have taken hold with Nixon.

      It certainly explains a lot about Dick Cheney's aspirations for transforming the office of Vice President.

    89. Re:Fourth Amendment by anagama · · Score: 2

      A court order is required to LISTEN in to your phone calls.

      But, under the Third Party Doctrine, an attorney for the government can just fill in the blanks on a subpoena template, print it out, and send it to AT&T under his/her inherent authority as an officer of the court, and find out every person you have called or called you, along with date, time, duration, probably GPS info etc.

      The 4th Amendment protects stuff you personally have from being searched, but does nothing to prevent stuff other people have about you from being obtained without a warrant.

      In Smith, Michael Smith had robbed Patricia McDonough and then phoned repeatedly to threaten her. The police secured a pen register at the phone company (third party) to trace the numbers of calls placed to McDonough. Smith appealed his conviction, asserting that the pen register had violated his Fourth Amendment rights. Justice Harry A. Blackmun wrote that when Smith voluntarily "conveyed numerical information to the phone company and . . . its equipment in the normal course of business, he assumed the risk that the company would reveal the information to the police."

      As more and more information moves online, some have questioned whether this principle should continue to be applied. For example, in the Global Positioning System tracking case, U.S. v. Jones (2012), Justice Sonia Sotomayor's concurrence described the third-party records doctrine as "ill-suited to the digital age, in which people reveal a great deal of information about themselves to third parties in the course of carrying out mundane tasks." The principle remains the same -- who entrusted their data to AT&T or Capital One in the 1970s are now entrusting their data to Google and Facebook. But the amount of data in the hands of third parties today is potentially much more revealing than in the 1970s. The question is whether that difference in quantity and quality has become a difference in kind.

      http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/article/the_data_question_should_the_third-party_records_doctrine_be_revisited/

      And yeah -- I totally agree this totally sucks and is plain wrong. But it is important to not live under the false impression of privacy because being wrong can totally screw up your life. Basically, if someone else holds it in any form, you should figure the Government can get it easily.

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    90. Re:Fourth Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... doesn't mention anything about Facebook, so as long as we're not using papers, I guess the government can intercept anything.

    91. Re:Fourth Amendment by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but that was written over one hundred years ago and is hard to understand.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    92. Re:Fourth Amendment by c0lo · · Score: 1

      But.... they are right!!! The amendment clearly specifies "no Warrants": as such, they don't even attempt to get one!!!
      (grin)

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    93. Re:Fourth Amendment by ewieling · · Score: 2

      The Nordic countries seem pretty good, as does Switzerland. I don't have a significant problem regarding searches with a warrant. There is generally some judicial oversight and a way to get any evidence thrown out if the warrant is deemed invalid upon review. My issue is searches without a warrant.

      --
      I really shouldn't have used someone else's email address for this account.
    94. Re:Fourth Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      or forgot the /sarcasm tag

      Yes, sarcasm doesn't work without it.

    95. Re:Fourth Amendment by Qzukk · · Score: 1

      A postcard anyone who handles it between point A and B can read what is on that postcard compared to a letter they would need to open to read.

      And once it's dropped through the slot in my mailbox at the end of the journey, nobody can read it without opening my mailbox and fucking with my shit. Unless, of course, my mailbox is on a server somewhere, which the government thinks means it is allowed to fuck with my shit all it wants.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    96. Re:Fourth Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It really comes down to the king and the common man having the same rights in law. If the king can hack in and read others email then the common citizen surely must have the same privilege. Less than that and the word dictatorship leaps to the top of the dictionary.

    97. Re:Fourth Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A safe deposit box offers protection if you make certain that the box has more than one owner on the list. That way if a legal search of the box takes place there is no proof that you own anything within. You need not testify against yourself and the other owner can take the fifth if located as he may feel that he is at legal risk. The law may confiscate some contents of the box but placing the contents in evidence will be unusually difficult if you have a decent lawyer.
                    Conversely a box that allows only you to use it can put you under the jail. Safety deposit boxes are frequently used to store illegal drugs as well as drug money.

    98. Re:Fourth Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bullshit - my papers and effects are my papers and effects, regardless of where I keep them.

      Could you imagine how hard it would be for banks to sell safety deposit space, if there was no guarantee other people weren't able to rifle through your shit?

      It comes down to the legal argument over an expectation of privacy. You expect a bank to keep the contents of a safety deposit box private. Arguing unencrypted emails, facebook posts, tweets, etc.

      False equivalence - An email is a direct communication between two parties, whereas facebook posts and tweets are publicly posted.

      False understanding - Some facebook posts and tweets are publicly posted.

    99. Re:Fourth Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're joking, but this is actually the point.

      The constitution contains the word "unreasonable". That implies there must be such a thing as "reasonable" searches and seizures.

      If a search that doesn't, even momentarily, inconvenience or even alert the searchee isn't "reasonable", what is?

    100. Re:Fourth Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hands up! I have a warrant for your intelligence and sense of humor!

      "We haven't found anything, Sir!"

    101. Re:Fourth Amendment by superwiz · · Score: 1

      This is nothing new. The meaning of the wording of the Constitution is already subject to the SCOTUS' interpretation. So any court member who believes in a "living document" doctrine pretty much claims for himself an imperial power to "interpret" (ie deem) the Constitution to mean whatever he (or she) deems appropriate. This is how a right to a speedy trial became a right to a trial whenever the judge gets to it (ie, your case will be heard at the court's leisure).

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    102. Re:Fourth Amendment by superwiz · · Score: 1

      No, using 3rd party's equipment argument has already been thrown out. This is why police needs a warrant to listen in on a phone conversation even though it is transmitted over 3rd party's wires.

      --
      Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    103. Re:Fourth Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Two words: Antonin Scalia

      He doesn't believe in progressive government and considers anything outside the scope of what was modern when the Constitution and its amendments were written to be unaffected by law unless specifically addressed by Congress. (I challenge you to find ANY legislation which renders your email sacrosanct.) He routinely states from the bench that the concept of privacy was never specifically addressed by the founders. And his right wing brethren; Alito, Roberts and Thomas, all believe its ok for police to deceive suspects in the course of an investigation, search your car without your consent if you're stopped for a minor traffic offense and that corporate political anonymity trumps your right to be informed about identities of political advocates including those who wield the collective power of the shareholder's wealth.

      In short, Roberts' court is your worst nightmare if you believe you, as a private citizen, have anything to say about who gets to view the contents of your email and other electronic communications. But since Carnivore, Echelon, and its related technologies, brought to you courtesy of Total Information Awareness (TIA), aka the IAO (Information Awareness Office), it's really quite silly to quibble over spilled milk. Unless, of course, you're feeling quite quixotic.

      Personally, I've ceased giving a whit. There are bigger issues in the world, like global climate change, ocean acidification and whether Roundup is readying the human endocrine system unfit for competition. It's about time people catch up with the ramifications of 7 billion embodied souls all looking more and more like future Westernized consumers. If multinational corporations can't act responsibly to cut pollution, in all its forms, and produce electrical energy with a vastly reduced carbon footprint (i.e. by ditching fossil fuels, including methane), government surveillance will soon be ubiquitous out of necessity because resource scarcity will render the current haphazard system of production and distribution incapable of meeting the basic needs of many many angry armed people fighting for what they believe their weapons entitle them to demand. And, no, I'm not talking about Shari'a law.

    104. Re:Fourth Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No because they'll claim the border search exception when the email is in transit

    105. Re:Fourth Amendment by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      Are you implying that the difference of protons and neutrons is what defines personal property vs non personal property?

      I'm sure the founding fathers didn't make that distinction

      The founding fathers made that exact argument. If you cant hold it in your had or otherwise posses it, it isn't personal property.

      [Citation needed]

      4th amdendment: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

      The founding fathers listed tangible personal and real property in the amendment. Sub atomic particles aren't mentioned, nor would they have been even if they would have been known. For one thing, given the Heisenberg uncertainty principle how would one claim such particles are in your possesion versus the public sphere? If they are in the public sphere, they are open to search and seizure.

    106. Re:Fourth Amendment by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      I didn't know the founding fathers were gypsies...

      The 4th amendment is pretty clear in what it says about tangible personal and real property why would that make the founding fathers gypsies?

    107. Re:Fourth Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Surely a privacy setting creates some expectation.

    108. Re:Fourth Amendment by Macgrrl · · Score: 1

      I thought he redefined the word sex. (I did not have sexual relations with that woman).

      --
      Sara
      Designer, Gamer, Macgrrl in an XP World
    109. Re:Fourth Amendment by Kjella · · Score: 1

      The Nordic countries seem pretty good, as does Switzerland.

      We're heading down the same slippery slope here in Norway, for example now with the data storage directive ISPs will have to collect and store source and destination for email service and position every time your phone gets a call, text or uses the Internet - that is practically all the time for a smartphone, so far not the content though. When people pointed out that it is only email, if you send say a Facebook message it's not recorded they got the deer-in-headlights look and a mumbling about extending it. If you're concerned about unconstitutional wiretapping by the NSA in the US, don't worry because Sweden made it legal through the FRA law.

      The FRA law (FRA-lagen in Swedish) is a Swedish legislative package that authorizes the Swedish Defence Radio Authority to warrantlessly wiretap all telephone and Internet traffic that crosses Sweden's borders. It was passed by the Parliament of Sweden on June 18, 2008, by a vote of 143 to 138 (with one delegate abstaining and 67 delegates not present)[1] and took effect on January 1, 2009.

      Some countries might be slipping worse than others but I really don't see any going in the right direction anymore.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    110. Re:Fourth Amendment by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Interesting article, but some points there are really off:

      It reasoned that consumers voluntarily convey to the phone company the numbers they dial when placing a call, that they therefore have no reasonable expectation of privacy in that information and have consented to further disclosure of this information to law enforcement. Perhaps we agree as well that "consent" in some scenarios in which the third-party doctrine applies is not really voluntary.

      Well yes, they need that to connect the call. If we do a person-for-technology substitution like they do, you'd have to tell the phone operator where to connect you do. That person would functionally have to know and process that information and the operator could volunteer or be forced to testify as much. I don't see how you can argue that knowledge that you force on third parties - unlike the contents - could or should be protected.

      This is not so. First, most communicants simply cannot meet in order to exchange information. It is not practical to do so, particularly where the communicants are far apart or are numerous, as occurs much more frequently today than in the past. There is no substitution effect to worry about because there is no practical alternative to use of the third party to convey the information. The alternative is not to show up personally so the police can watch; rather, as a practical matter, the alternative when one wants to have a Fourth Amendment-protected communication is not to communicate at all.

      The alternative is encryption. That way you can have security of content, but not of non-content since the third party still needs to know where to deliver it.

      Anyway, despite their minor disagreements they both quite clearly say that anything you store online is free game today.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    111. Re:Fourth Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please explain, then, how this would not apply to safe deposit boxes, or even to things sent through the postal service?
      You've effectively asked a third party to hold/deliver your information. By the wording of this doctrine, the authorities can now intercept and rummage through all of your stuff.

    112. Re:Fourth Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So the DOJ agrees that it's OK for wikileaks to publish all their email and chats without warrants?

      That's pretty cool of them.

      Does the SCOTUS want all their email and chats published by wikileaks too?

    113. Re:Fourth Amendment by daveime · · Score: 1

      Careful, the 180 day rule applies to UNOPENED emails only, and requires a warrant.

      OPENED mail can be viewed with just an Administrative Subpoena, and requires no warrant or court intervention / approval.

      However, whether they use a court-issued warrant OR an Administrative Subpoena, it must be in connection with a currently ongoing investigation. They haven't written 330 million subpoenas for every man woman and child in the US (nor are renewing those documents every 180 days).

      Hence, they are NOT "spying" on every email ever sent by anyone in the US. The title is hyperbole, and the tin-foil brigade lap this shit up, regardless of the actual facts.

    114. Re:Fourth Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Could you imagine how hard it would be for banks to sell safety deposit space, if there was no guarantee other people weren't able to rifle through your shit?

      DHS has acually claimed (i.e, arrogated unto themselves) the 'right' to do just that - access safety deposit boxes without notice or warrant, ant to confiscate your stuff too. This is for all the savers who want to withdraw money from bank accounts to prevent a Cyprus-style haircut:

      http://investmentwatchblog.com/u-s-department-of-homeland-security-has-told-banks-in-writing-it-may-inspect-safe-deposit-boxes-without-warrant-and-sieze-any-gold-silver-guns-or-other-valuables-it-finds-inside-those-boxes/

      http://www.infowars.com/department-of-homeland-security-can-seize-gold-silver-guns-in-safety-deposit-boxes/

    115. Re:Fourth Amendment by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      No he actually was trying to explain a lie he had told and he made the statement "Well that depends on what your defintion of the word is is." My favorite politician. He could go through a car wash in a convertible and someone else would get wet.

    116. Re:Fourth Amendment by Legion303 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, the operatives would have gotten away with it if it weren't for your pesky 3-lever lock.

    117. Re:Fourth Amendment by Fesh · · Score: 1

      Because the victim was rich, famous, and politically connected. Q.E.D.

      --
      --Fesh
      Kill -9 'em all, let root@localhost sort 'em out.
    118. Re:Fourth Amendment by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      Are you implying that the difference of protons and neutrons is what defines personal property vs non personal property?

      I'm sure the founding fathers didn't make that distinction

      The founding fathers made that exact argument. If you cant hold it in your had or otherwise posses it, it isn't personal property.

      [Citation needed]

      4th amdendment: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

      The founding fathers listed tangible personal and real property in the amendment.

      You missed something: The definitions of papers and effects.

      Also - they never mentioned television or the internet, either, but it's generally accepted that the 1st Amendment applies to them.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    119. Re:Fourth Amendment by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      Are you implying that the difference of protons and neutrons is what defines personal property vs non personal property?

      I'm sure the founding fathers didn't make that distinction

      The founding fathers made that exact argument. If you cant hold it in your had or otherwise posses it, it isn't personal property.

      [Citation needed]

      4th amdendment: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

      The founding fathers listed tangible personal and real property in the amendment.

      You missed something: The definitions of papers and effects.

      Also - they never mentioned television or the internet, either, but it's generally accepted that the 1st Amendment applies to them.

      I didn't miss anything.

      As a means of communication it makes sense that the 1st amendment would apply to television and even the internet. The 4th amendment, however, is about tangible personal and real property. It is your papers, not what is written on them that is protected. The police cannot take or search your papers without proper warrant. If you leave them on the front stoop of your house, they are free to read them. Effects, as used in the 4th amendment are physical things you have legal title to (if you don't have legal title to it, it is not your effect, but somebody else's). A flash drive and the data contained on it, assuming it is your flash drive, is your personal effect. Google's drive array with your data on it is Google's personal effect, not yours.

      Data is not a personal effect. What stores the data is, whether that storage is a newspaper, a flash drive, etc. The 4th amendment is about physical tangible things. There are other laws that protect intangible things, like copyrights and patents, to name but two. There are other amendments that protect other rights, like speech, which is the conveyance of ideas, so it goes beyond simple oration.

      Look at a real life problem with what you are arguing. Assume you purchase a music CD (personal property). You rip the CD and store it on your local hard drive (which is also personal property). You now copy the data file to your Google drive (which you claim is personal property but is not, but we will assume it is for now). Google backs up their server and now there is your copy of the data (your claimed personal property) and another copy, which cannot be yours (you don't even know if it exists or not). This process can be repeated multiple times. Sometime in the future, the main server, where you copied your file fails. Your personal property (by your claim) is now lost. Google replaces the server with a backup and now there is a copy of the file that is really their personal property (using the rational that data is personal property and they made the copy, so it is their creation and their property). Again, this cycle repeats over and over again, until Google owns all the data stored on their servers, because using your reasoning, it is all their personal property and your personal property was destroyed when the server went down.

      Now, in real life, nobody is going to argue that. Why? Well first of all, data isn't tangible personal property, it is intangible personal property. As intangible personal property, it doesn't matter whether it is the original or the copy, it is still your intangible personal property. But that is the crux of the matter, the 4th amendment only applies to tangible property (both personal and real -- real meaning real estate). So, your files stored on somebody else's server are not, nor can they ever be your personal property. If you own the server it is your personal property. If you own the building, it is your personal property. But otherwise, even if you rent the space, it is not your personal property (which is why a land lord can let the police in without a warrant and you are screwed).

    120. Re:Fourth Amendment by AdDeRidder · · Score: 1

      Exactly what I came to post. Passwords are locks. GMail is an information safe. If I try a bunch of passwords until I get into a computer I am not supposed to access, that is a crime because I am "accessing an account without authorization" (I hate how they triple charge someone when one charge implies the others, a person should only be charged with one charge). Then accessing my email is also a crime. DOJ can say they are allowed to do it. They can tell Google they are allowed to do it, but until it is challenged in court, we won't know if they are allowed to do it. That's why they don't publish what they are doing, because they know that there's a good chance that they AREN'T allowed to do it.

    121. Re:Fourth Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The purpose of law in the US is to create business for the legal profession. This is why the laws and precedents are riddled with contradictions and inconsistencies. If you actually want to have a legal system that protects your rights, you absolutely must fix the legal ethics problems, and that in turn means (at a minimum) taking control over legal ethics away from the bar associations.

      Unfortunately, very few people outside the legal profession study the law in enough depth to understand how bad things are, and the bar associatations tend to be the most powerful lobbies in the US.

    122. Re:Fourth Amendment by sjames · · Score: 1

      Actually, most reasonable people do expect email to be private. It is, after all addressed to a particular person and not posted to a public forum. Facebook posts and such may carry some expectation of privacy if they have been marked as such by the user.

  4. Any suggestions? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    How can I vote pro-forth-amendment?

    1. Re:Any suggestions? by zlives · · Score: 1

      should have voted for moon colony...

    2. Re:Any suggestions? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1
    3. Re:Any suggestions? by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      First you have define the command for vote...

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
  5. FOI Requests? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Does the same logic mean that the government can not reject FOI requests for emails and can not redact anything in emails?

    --
    I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    1. Re:FOI Requests? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pffffaahahaahahaha no.

    2. Re:FOI Requests? by NeveRBorN · · Score: 1

      This is the test that should be used to determine whether or not a warrant is required.

    3. Re:FOI Requests? by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      Does the same logic mean that the government can not reject FOI requests for emails and can not redact anything in emails?

      Good question, who's up for trying?

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    4. Re:FOI Requests? by amdn · · Score: 1

      Being able to read everyone's email is a matter of national security... by reading emails the government can anticipate and foil a terrorist attack better than if say a woman on the terrorist watch list has a son that goes to Russia and comes back and the Russians tell us that Tamerlan Tsarnaev has been radicalized and is a danger to our country and we do nothing about it and he blows up an 8 year old, kills two more and maims hundreds. If we don't take seriously an explicit warning who thinks scanning billions of emails will be effective?

  6. even if they did by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    they would read them all and deal with lawsuits/getting warrants later...

  7. A recent talk from Shmoocon discussed this issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcGAtohIaws

    as others have said, the Government's stance is hardly news.

  8. Oh wait! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Maybe we should create an amendment to the constitution that makes this issue more clear regarding illegal search.

    Oh, wait... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

    well then maybe we should create a law that clarifies the position a bit further

    Oh, wait.. http://www.justice.gov/opcl/privstat.htm

    ok, well maybe we will have courts decide that emails are personal property

    Oh, wait... http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Are_emails_personal_property

    when/where does it end?

    1. Re:Oh wait! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It ends when you start sending prosecutors to jail for misconduct.

    2. Re:Oh wait! by CanHasDIY · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It ends when prosecutors start sending prosecutors to jail for misconduct.

      FTFY, and identified the real problem at the same time.

      If self-policing worked, we wouldn't have need for police, you know?

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    3. Re:Oh wait! by Spiridios · · Score: 1

      It ends when you start sending prosecutors to jail for misconduct.

      Who prosecutes the prosecutors? I'm not really disagreeing with you, just pointing out that reform has to start a little higher up.

    4. Re:Oh wait! by Zcar · · Score: 1

      It's not misconduct to follow procedures ruled constitutional by the US Supreme Court, e.g. United States v. Miller (1976) and Smith v. Maryland (1979).

      To be clear, I think they should be protected, but as far as I can tell, that's not the current state.

    5. Re:Oh wait! by Nadaka · · Score: 2

      Give them a fair trial, take them out back and then shoot them for treason.

      That is what they are doing when they violate the pledge they swore as a government servant to protect and defend the constitution.

      The death penalty should be reserved for multiple-murderers and people who misuse their government position to infringe on the rights of people.

    6. Re:Oh wait! by interval1066 · · Score: 1

      In a world where a DEMOCRATIC president declared some banks are too big to fail and used tax payer money to prop up failing institutions insuring the rich's stranglehold on money and a rejection of any hope for the productive poor to better themselves through decent, affordable loans, no prosecutors will be sent to jail for miscinduct. They are too useful to the institutions.

      --
      Python: 'And then suddenly you have a language which says "we're all stuck with whatever the whiniest coder wants".'
    7. Re:Oh wait! by triffid_98 · · Score: 1

      prop up failing institutions insuring the rich's stranglehold on money and a rejection of any hope for the productive poor to better themselves

      "[America Is] a unique society in which we have free enterprise for the poor and socialism for the rich."
      -Gore Vidal

      ...except that we can now lump the EU into that statement since they did the exact same fking thing two years later.

    8. Re:Oh wait! by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Prosecutors have prosecutorial immunity. The only justice you can extract from prosecutors is vigilante justice. Vigilante justice itself is untenable unless supported by the public. So nothing is going to change until the public is so fed up that the discovery of a box of prosecutor heads on the steps of the district court is met with widespread applause.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    9. Re:Oh wait! by FrankieBaby1986 · · Score: 1

      Well then we just need for Police Police to Police Police.

      --
      ERROR: SIG NOT FOUND (A)bort, (R)etry, (F)ail?:
    10. Re:Oh wait! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have never met a lawyer have you? They *love* to mess with each other. It is a game to them. We shoot fake aliens. They fuck others lawyers over...

    11. Re:Oh wait! by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      Well then we just need for Police Police to Police Police.

      If, by that, you mean "citizen committees with the power to remove officers from duty and prosecute them for criminal violations," then yes, yes we do.

      FYI, your third Police shouldn't have been capitalized, as it was used as a common verb instead of a proper noun (still, good wordplay).

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    12. Re:Oh wait! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How many layers of abstraction are you willing to accept?

      Prosecutors are people... Who would prosecute the prosecutors / police? More people? Clearly people have come up with some semblance of an attempt at a justice system.

      The solution is obvious: it's not the fact that prosecutors are performing the task that is the problem. It's their immunity from the consequences of their actions that is. Open government is the only configuration that has even a possibility of being fair or righteous. The price to maintain liberty is vigilance.

      I'm too young to be complicit in the current state of affairs. Who shall I blame for the state of the shit hole world I've been born into?

    13. Re:Oh wait! by Warskull · · Score: 1

      Those attempting to enforce the law will always end up regarding rules of conduct and rights as an inconvenience that needs to go away. It makes their job harder. That's why you always need groups pushing back on them to keep such rules and rights in place.

    14. Re:Oh wait! by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      It ends when the American people stop electing politicians who express contempt for the Constitution and then re-electing them after they have proven that they are willing to act on that contempt despite taking an oath to defend the Constitution.

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    15. Re:Oh wait! by Qzukk · · Score: 1

      The best part is that we wouldn't need to have infinite recursion because Police Police Police Police police, police Police Police.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    16. Re:Oh wait! by trout007 · · Score: 1

      It ends when juries refuse to convict based on evidence collected this way. If I was on a jury and email was submitted as evidence and there was no warrant I'm not convicting.

      --
      I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
    17. Re:Oh wait! by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      I'm too young to be complicit in the current state of affairs. Who shall I blame for the state of the shit hole world I've been born into?

      Your own complacent attitude, for starters.

      What was it that Ghandi said? "Be the change that you wish to see in the world."

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    18. Re:Oh wait! by sjames · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, it'll probably end with the 2nd amendment sooner or later.

  9. Depends by Murdoch5 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If you can sniff the network and easily read what I sent then fine. If I secure my emails so they don't appear in plain text then I think you do. If you secure your communication then you should require a warrant, because otherwise anyone could read what I send and I should have no expectation of privacy with my communications.

    1. Re:Depends by CanHasDIY · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If you can sniff the network and easily read what I sent then fine. If I secure my emails so they don't appear in plain text then I think you do.

      So basically your stance is - if you mail a letter in a sealed envelope, it's fair game, but if the letter is written in code, it's not.

      Strange philosophy you have there.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    2. Re:Depends by Murdoch5 · · Score: 1

      Well you can open either one but if you can't read it then you need seek a warrant to get me to decode the information for you. If you cared about the sensitivity of the information you would of secured it in the place so I actually do support that concept. If you leave the information open and readable with out effort then fine, but if you take the time to encode the information then it's not open game.

    3. Re:Depends by emorning9707 · · Score: 1

      I think a better analogy would be if you mail a letter in an envelope that can simply be held up to a light in order to read the contents then it's fair game, but if you send your message in a lead-lined envelope that must be opened in order to read the contents then a warrant is required.

    4. Re:Depends by Lakitu · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's not strange at all. Isn't this a technical site?

      Email is sent plaintext over the wire. There's no envelope.

      It's like complaining about someone being able to hear your radio broadcasts in plain language. Or overhear your conversation in a restaurant.

    5. Re:Depends by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      Well you can open either one but if you can't read it then you need seek a warrant to get me to decode the information for you. If you cared about the sensitivity of the information you would of secured it in the place so I actually do support that concept. If you leave the information open and readable with out effort then fine, but if you take the time to encode the information then it's not open game.

      But in the case of a sealed envelope, it's not open by definition. It shouldn't matter whether the information within is encrypted or not, because your rights have already been violated by virtue of the fact that the seal was broken by someone other than the intended recipient; which, concerning physical mailings, is already a crime.

      What makes you think electronic communications should be treated any different?

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    6. Re:Depends by Nickodeimus · · Score: 1

      Data transmitted over the internet is always encapsulated. If you receive data that is not addressed to you you are supposed to discard it. If the government reads data that is not addressed to it then it is in violation of the 4th amendment.

      The same could be said of anything stored by any service provider.

      Every piece of data, no matter how small it is, is kept in some sort of container whether in transit or in storage. Those containers are no different than an envelope travelling through the US Postal Service and are thus protected. Encryption shouldn't really matter at that point where the government is concerned. If they want to look at it then they should have to show cause before a judge and that judge should have to sign off on a narrowly defined warrant that allows them to read the data.

      This needs to be explicitly codified into law, since our nanny state government seems to think otherwise.

    7. Re:Depends by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They do not have to seek a warrant to get you to decode it. If the mail is fair game then your act of encoding it is obstruction of justice, which they can simply arrest you for.

    8. Re:Depends by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What makes you think electronic communications should be treated any different?

      They don't have envelopes.

    9. Re:Depends by Murdoch5 · · Score: 1

      Well anyone can sit on a network and sniff data without being the intended destination, just by sitting in the middle they can get a copy of the data. If the letter could be read with out being opened that it's okay, I'm not suggesting the mail should get opened and read. Securing your message is like putting it not only in code but in the envelope. Not securing your data is like sending with without an envelope, anyone can see the letter just be looking at it.

    10. Re:Depends by Spiridios · · Score: 1

      So basically your stance is - if you mail a letter in a sealed envelope, it's fair game, but if the letter is written in code, it's not.

      I'd argue it's slightly different. An unsecured packet is more like a postcard than a sealed envelope. The delivery info and content are there for anyone to see as it passes by. Last time I did a packet sniff, the sniffer didn't say "here's the delivery info, press a key to break the seal and see the contents", it just showed me the whole packet all at once. Adding encryption is like adding an envelope, you can see the delivery info, but you must take some other action to see the contents.

    11. Re:Depends by Murdoch5 · · Score: 1

      I don't entirely disagree, it's just that if you don't secure your communication then anyone who wants to can read it. Regardless of how the packet is encapsulated you just need to be a NIC in "monitoring" and you'll see all the data.

    12. Re:Depends by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes they do, its called a file. Email text does not just scrooooll by on some tech's screen, they have to OPEN the emails....

    13. Re:Depends by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Well you can open either one but if you can't read it then you need seek a warrant to get me to decode the information for you

      Shit of a full grown bull.
      We also have a right to not incriminate ourselves. I have no responsibility to decode a message; just because something is encoded does not make it illicit.

    14. Re:Depends by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not sure you understand how computers work.

    15. Re:Depends by cervesaebraciator · · Score: 1

      So, can I listen in on your land-line, unencrypted phone conversations without a warrant?

    16. Re:Depends by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      Regardless of how the packet is encapsulated you just need to be a NIC in "monitoring" and you'll see all the data.

      Which constitutes a search.

      Which, per the 4th Amendment, is illegal for the government to do without a warrant.

      Not sure why you're having so much trouble understanding that...

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    17. Re:Depends by SuperTechnoNerd · · Score: 1

      "need seek a warrant to get me to decode the information for you"
      But the encryption key is protected by the 5th amendment.. So I suggest you exercise your right to remain silent. :)

    18. Re:Depends by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well you can open either one

      In the jurisdiction being discussed (the USA), it is a federal crime to open a sealed letter unless you are the intended recipient.

    19. Re:Depends by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      So basically your stance is - if you mail a letter in a sealed envelope, it's fair game, but if the letter is written in code, it's not.

      I'd argue it's slightly different. An unsecured packet is more like a postcard than a sealed envelope.

      OK, then, here's an example: I just sent an email to my wife. If intercepting and reading the message is as trivial as you posit it is, then feel free to do so and post the contents of said email here.

      If you can't, then your point is moot.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    20. Re:Depends by cervesaebraciator · · Score: 1

      It's like complaining about someone being able to hear your radio broadcasts in plain language.

      It's rather more like complaining that someone is wiretapping your phone. An analog land-line is unencrypted and most of the wire that carries it belongs to someone else. Though its routed through many different places, there's one intended recipient and because it takes a directed effort to listen to it (unlike listening in on a broadcast), there remains a reasonable expectation of privacy.

    21. Re:Depends by Lakitu · · Score: 0

      right.

      When you send an email, or any internet traffic, you're basically shipping it out to the wild because of the internet's packet-switched nature. Phones, being circuit switched, pass through a network but have a pretty obviously higher nature of privacy.

      I just think the analogy isn't totally unreasonable though, especially with the prevalenc of wifi and public internet points. It certainly raises lots of interesting legal questions, like how the password-protected nature of accessing an email account affects your expectation of privacy, and things like WPA2 encryption, which encrypts your traffic over the air to the router, but not on the wire after the router ships it out. It of course begs the question of how and where law enforcement could access internet traffic in the case of an ISP or email provider or whoever refusing without a warrant, which is also in the news this past week.

      All in all, I do think most laypeople would be a little shocked that email is simple plaintext and easily readable, which indicates they have an (unrealistic) expectation of privacy, and this goes for almost all internet traffic. It's simultaneously very public and very private. Ultimately I would not be surprised in the least if, in the near but not immediate future, "envelopes" become commonplace in order to satisfy's the general population's desire for an explicit expectation of privacy in the form of better encryption and security standards and practices seeing widespread use.

    22. Re:Depends by Murdoch5 · · Score: 1

      I'm having no trouble understanding that, however I also don't have a forth amendment in Canada.

    23. Re:Depends by Murdoch5 · · Score: 0

      I don't have a 5th amendment right in Canada, so no worries.

    24. Re:Depends by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're ignoring the fact that modern email is almost entirely sent over SSL. The intermediate servers see the plaintext, but that makes it more like the circuit-switched telephone example. Of course, there's also the fact that legal expectation of privacy should not depend on how things actually are implemented.

    25. Re:Depends by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wait, are you serious? Yes - email *is* analgous to a postcard. In that the postman can read it, not just anyone in the world. And in this analogy "the postman" is "whomever operates the intervening SMTP servers", which could potentially be anyone who operates such servers.

      Encrypting your email with something like PGP and a very small key is analgous to putting an envelope around the postcard - it establishes your intent that people not read your mail and stops folks from doing so trivially or accidentally. Using a large encryption key is like putting your postcard in a strong lockbox and mailing that (it prevents even some malicious people from reading it).

      But the point remains. Email is handed, unencrypted, to untrusted third parties. Citation: the SMTP specification.

    26. Re:Depends by fisted · · Score: 1

      > You're ignoring the fact that modern email is almost entirely sent over SSL.

      You should get your facts straight. Also, if you thought SSL provides sender-to-recipient encryption, i have some bad news for you.

    27. Re:Depends by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      Encrypting your email with something like PGP and a very small key is analgous to putting an envelope around the postcard - it establishes your intent that people not read your mail and stops folks from doing so trivially or accidentally.

      No; encryption is more akin to writing your letter in code.

      The SSL protocol that pretty much every email service on the planet uses would be analogous to the envelope.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    28. Re:Depends by Lakitu · · Score: 1

      Modern email is not almost entirely sent over SSL, and that wouldn't help much in the first place when it comes to government snooping. But yes, one of the major questions is about what the big corporations will do and how much pressure they're under. The big telcos decades ago wouldn't dream of giving up information like this to the government without a warrant, and may have even been held liable in court if they had. Telco and ISPs today seem either much more likely to be willing to do this.

      with regards to legal expectations of privacy, it will always depend on how things are implemented, because the implementation we're talking about here is reality. No matter how forcefully we write our laws, they will lose every argument with reality.

    29. Re:Depends by c0lo · · Score: 1

      If you can sniff the network and easily read what I sent then fine. If I secure my emails so they don't appear in plain text then I think you do.

      So basically your stance is - if you mail a letter in a sealed envelope, it's fair game, but if the letter is written in code, it's not.

      More likely the difference between a postcard - everybody on the way can read it - versus a sealed opaque envelope: the use of the envelope expresses my wish to have only the recipient readings what's inside.
      Send the email using non-encrypted protocols and it's a postcard. Send it using encrypted communication and it's a letter. Mind you: it doesn't matter it the content of the message is encrypted or not.

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    30. Re:Depends by Spiridios · · Score: 1

      So basically your stance is - if you mail a letter in a sealed envelope, it's fair game, but if the letter is written in code, it's not.

      I'd argue it's slightly different. An unsecured packet is more like a postcard than a sealed envelope.

      OK, then, here's an example: I just sent an email to my wife. If intercepting and reading the message is as trivial as you posit it is, then feel free to do so and post the contents of said email here.

      If you can't, then your point is moot.

      I just sent a postcard to my sister. If intercepting a postcard is as trivial as you seem to think it is, then post the contents here.

      If you can't, then your point is moot.

    31. Re:Depends by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OK, so what if we send the email over HTTPS? Now there's an envelope and only the people on the end can see inside.

    32. Re:Depends by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A strong case can be made that when you send the email to a second person it becomes public. It is the difference between a thought held between your ears and a though uttered in a crowded room. How many must be in the room before it is a public remark? Some say one other person. Some say one other person other than your spouse, lawyer, or priest or psychiatrist and the law even puts limits on those exemptions.

    33. Re:Depends by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you don't mind someone tapping your phone, correct?

    34. Re:Depends by Lakitu · · Score: 1

      Of course I do.

      People have never seemed to be too upset about their cell phones, though.

    35. Re:Depends by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who cares if people are upset or not? It's the fucking constitution. There should be an expectation of privacy just like there is one for your land line, especially if people stop using land lines altogether (which they are!)

    36. Re:Depends by Lakitu · · Score: 1

      I care if people aren't upset because it seems to me that the lack of upset is that people don't seem to have expectations of privacy when it comes to radio broadcasts.

      Like I was originally saying, it's more like the expectation of privacy while holding a conversation in a restaurant. There certainly is an expectation, but it's not unreasonable for the police to overhear what you're saying.

    37. Re:Depends by SuperTechnoNerd · · Score: 1

      Is there similar law regarding self incrimination? Just curious..

    38. Re:Depends by Murdoch5 · · Score: 1
      yes but it's a little different then how US self incrimination works. Now I'm not a lawyer so i could be completely misunderstanding what it says but from what I understand you can't stand witness against yourself once charged. This is the exert:

      In Canada, similar rights exist pursuant to the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Section 11 of the Charter provides that one cannot be compelled to be a witness in a proceeding against oneself. Section 11(c) states: 11. Any person charged with an offense has the right c) not to be compelled to be a witness in proceedings against that person in respect of the offense An important distinction[dubious – discuss] in Canadian law is that this does not apply to a person who is not charged in the case in question. A person issued subpoena, who is not charged in respect of the offense being considered, must give testimony. However, this testimony cannot later be used against the person in another case. Section 13 of the Charter states: 13. A witness who testifies in any proceedings has the right not to have any incriminating evidence so given used to incriminate that witness in any other proceedings, except in a prosecution for perjury or for the giving of contradictory evidence.

      However with that being said, if your dumb enough to incriminate yourself through the use of email with out securing it before hand then you deserve it. To be clear, I'm also applying this to myself, if I don't secure my communication then I'm inviting people to read it with out my permission and with out a warrant.

    39. Re:Depends by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where are you getting this from? Did you ask a few hundred people if they expected their cell phone conversations to be able to be tapped by the government at will without warrants and a majority of them answered yes? Where are these thousands of people who think cell phones have no expectation or privacy but land lines do?

      When people use their cellphone, they're talking to one person and that's the only person they expect to be able to hear the conversation. If a police officer overheads someone talking over their cell phone in a restaurant, then yes, the cop being physically there could hear it and there's no expectation of privacy. But that's way different than tapping the actual cell carrier and being able to hear conversations wherever they happen.

    40. Re:Depends by Lakitu · · Score: 1

      Analog cell phones broadcasted voice communications over the air in the clear for decades.

      The police, along with just about anyone, were free to listen in. You may not have heard about it because there wasn't much complaint about it.

      It's actually ingrained in pop culture too, if you look out for criminals in thrillers who don't want to speak on a cell phone.

    41. Re:Depends by Lakitu · · Score: 1

      and I mention analog only because it was so widespread and went on for so long that it should really hammer the point home. It's still entirely possible but the technicals behind it are more complicated.

      The point is: cell phones are just glorified radio transceivers.

    42. Re:Depends by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And land lines are just glorified electrical cables. You could easily tap in. It's still illegal. Who cares about 20-30 years ago? Security didn't even matter much back then and we can't rely on people knowing the technical capabilities of the device they use. Are you really arguing that police should be able to tap everything we say without warrant from now on? Jesus freaking christ.

    43. Re:Depends by Lakitu · · Score: 1

      You're missing the point. Landlines confer an expectation of privacy because they're a single physical entity which is often buried underground. Cell phones confer no expectation of privacy because they broadcast radio signals into the air, in all directions, for anyone to hear. If someone is talking on a cell phone on the sidewalk in front of your home, they are literally broadcasting a signal through your private property. Why would they ever expect no one to listen in, accidentally or intentionally? If your phone landlines ran through everyone's kitchen for square miles, and required no specialized equipment to be able to listen to it, would you expect to have privacy while using it?

      Who cares about 20-30 years ago? Security didn't even matter much back then and we can't rely on people knowing the technical capabilities of the device they use.

      You only care about the constitutionality of it now?

    44. Re:Depends by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I always care about it. Unlike you. Most people do not actually know how cell phones work, we shouldn't base their expectation of privacy on that.

  10. Second Amendment by tekrat · · Score: 5, Interesting

    People keep claiming that they want to keep their guns because they need to protect themselves if their rights are taken away by the government...

    HELLO???? At what point do you start defending yourselves? Your rights are being slowly stripped away and have been over the course of the last 30 years, and nobody does anything?

    Even when the Stormtroopers are patrolling the streets, and curfew after dark is in place and people are afraid to speak against the government, or talk on their phones, with your neighbors turning each other in for 'treason'... you'll all still be sitting on your guns waiting for the government to take away your rights.

    --
    If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
    1. Re:Second Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      People keep claiming that they want to keep their guns because they need to protect themselves if their rights are taken away by the government...

      HELLO???? At what point do you start defending yourselves? Your rights are being slowly stripped away and have been over the course of the last 30 years, and nobody does anything?

      Even when the Stormtroopers are patrolling the streets, and curfew after dark is in place and people are afraid to speak against the government, or talk on their phones, with your neighbors turning each other in for 'treason'... you'll all still be sitting on your guns waiting for the government to take away your rights.

      Until they actually do something with those newfound "powers" there won't be much uproar. As long as the searches/seizures are discrete, everyone is happy because "it wont happen to them".

    2. Re:Second Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Even when the Stormtroopers are patrolling the streets, and curfew after dark is in place and people are afraid to speak against the government, or talk on their phones, with your neighbors turning each other in for 'treason'... you'll all still be sitting on your guns waiting for the government to take away your rights.

      Or, as Boston proved, they'll be cheering in the streets.

      Hell, Boston proved that the Fourth Amendment is no obstacle to searching people's houses without a warrant. Not only did the people there let them do it, but they were happy to let them do it.

      Of course, Boston is a disarmed population, so maybe it would be different if the populace was armed - but I doubt it. All you have to do is cry "terrorist!" and the people will be happy to shut down a city to catch an unarmed injured teenager.

      If you ever needed to see why we need to take more action to defend our freedoms from the terrorists that are our government, Boston demonstrated quite clearly. The marathon bombings were nothing compared to the police action that followed.

    3. Re:Second Amendment by funwithBSD · · Score: 1

      Don't be silly, gun owners are a bunch of hicks and don't use email or read ./ ! /sarcasm

      --
      Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
    4. Re:Second Amendment by tekrat · · Score: 3, Interesting

      So... as long as the government comes after dissidents, one at a time, it's OK. As long as your rights are taken away, one at a time, it's OK. As long as you are oppressed SLOWLY, that's fine. Face it. America is sheeple. No one is ever going to take up arms against the government, and if someone does, he's easily dismissed as a kook by the media, and killed in a hail of gunfire and we all cheer on TV that we've been "saved" from this guy by the long arm of oppression.

      --
      If telephones are outlawed, then only outlaws will have telephones.
    5. Re:Second Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1
    6. Re: Second Amendment by dah_sab · · Score: 2

      Let's not be too harsh on Americans. Most people are sheeple, no matter where they live. We'd have a lot more revolutions otherwise. Few people want to be the 1st to die on the front line, even if success in the long run were assured. May be one reason a giant army of the unemployed haven't risen up against a govt here that clearly doesn't care if they live or die.

    7. Re:Second Amendment by PraiseBob · · Score: 1

      The marathon bombings were nothing compared to the police action that followed.

      I must've missed some of the news. How many people had their limbs blown off by the police during the search? How many children were killed during the optional curfew?

    8. Re:Second Amendment by Zcar · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Hell, Boston proved that the Fourth Amendment is no obstacle to searching people's houses without a warrant. Not only did the people there let them do it, but they were happy to let them do it.

      Yes. And there's no violation of the 4th Amendment if you willingly wave that right and say, "Come right on in and look around!" The 4th is only about coerced searches.

    9. Re:Second Amendment by CanHasDIY · · Score: 0

      No one is ever going to take up arms against the government, and if someone does, he's easily dismissed as a kook by the media, and killed in a hail of gunfire and we all cheer on TV that we've been "saved" from this guy by the long arm of oppression.

      Yea, that's probably why all the media coverage of the 'celebration' after the capture of Dzhokhar Tsarnaev made me want to wretch... too eerily reminiscent of the '2-Minute Hate' from 1984....

      We've always been at war with Eastasia...

      Fucking scary.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    10. Re:Second Amendment by thoth · · Score: 1

      People keep claiming that they want to keep their guns because they need to protect themselves if their rights are taken away by the government...

      HELLO???? At what point do you start defending yourselves?

      What you (meaning in general, not you specifically) is an organization like the NRA which beats the drum for Amendments 4+ as much as the NRA beats the drum for Amendment 2. But, the NRA is largely a gun manufacturer's rights organization, more so than one representing the actual people that are members. That in turn comes down to incentive and profit - there is money to be made yelling about Amendment 2, but not so much for Amendment 4+. Call that a free market failure.

    11. Re:Second Amendment by Obfuscant · · Score: 2

      I must've missed some of the news. How many people had their limbs blown off by the police during the search? How many children were killed during the optional curfew?

      Is it your argument that as long as the government is not dismembering children whatever else they do is ok?

      What "optional curfew"? There was a mandatory lockdown. People could not go to work, they could not earn their paychecks, they could not leave home. Buses and trains were shut down. They spent a good part of the day that way. And the suspect was found after people were allowed to go outside and someone saw bloody footprints around his boat. A member of the public, who had been prevented from leaving his house, did what the entire police force could not.

    12. Re:Second Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Something is missing in translation. Let me clarify.

      Gun enthusiasts do not believe, and never have believed, that guns are the go-to, first and best solution for all circumstances. Quite the contrary, use of force (guns or otherwise) is a last resort. Never a first. Force should be used only when all other options have prooven to have failed.

      A very simple way to look at this, which I particularly like, is the "four boxes of liberty approach." The four boxes represent an ordered list, ordered in the sequence at which each element of the list must fail before guns are an appropriate response to government intrusion. (though 2 and 3 can be reversed order, as desired)

      1. Soap Box
      2. Ballot Box
      3. Jury Box
      4. Ammo Box

      To elaborate: You start with the soap box. You work to convice others - citizens and legislators and executives alike - that something is wrong, and to change course. This actually works.

      When the soap box fails and legislators enact heinous laws, the next thing to rely on is the ballot box. You vote out the legislators/executives that you don't like - or directly challenge them in an election. And you vote in someone who more closely aligns with your beliefs. This new person is expected to help change course, repealing and/or replacing heinous laws.

      The third box is the jury box. If a heinous law is enacted and not repealed, then we rely on the judicial system to reign in or nullify the law. For example, laws that conflict with the constitution are unconstitutional and therefore illegal to enforce. We then use many lawsuits against those police, cities, etc who try to enforce the law and cause "death by a thousand cuts" - killing their political ambitions by preventing them from having enough money in the city budget.

      Finally, only after everything else fails, do you open the ammo box. It is critically important to understand that the previous boxes have *failed*. Not that you didn't get your way, but that the ifrastructure that supports the box has been effectively dismantled and no longer works. Under these conditions, the legislature and executive branch have prooven themselves more interested in enacting heinous laws than in those things we hold dearest. The voting box has prooven ineffective, where a civilian population has been denied their voting rights. The judicial system refuses to enforce individual rights and/or has proven incapable of such enforcement. At this point, when your rights are trampled by the government and redress has been removed, it is time to open the ammo box.

      The reason you don't see anyone opening the ammo box is because we're not there.

    13. Re:Second Amendment by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      What you (meaning in general, not you specifically) is an organization like the NRA which beats the drum for Amendments 4+ as much as the NRA beats the drum for Amendment 2

      Generally, the ACLU covers that.

      Of course, there's a segment of the populace that distrusts the ACLU because they've never found a single gun control law that violated the 2nd Amendment.

      Note that they claim that they ignore the 2nd Amendment because the NRA has that one covered. Of course, by that reasoning,they should ignore the 1st Amendment because the newspapers/media has that one covered. But they don't.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    14. Re:Second Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People keep claiming that they want to keep their guns because they need to protect themselves if their rights are taken away by the government...
      HELLO???? At what point do you start defending yourselves? Your rights are being slowly stripped away and have been over the course of the last 30 years, and nobody does anything?

      i'll point you to our own declaration of independend for a reasonable answer..

      Prudence ... will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

    15. Re:Second Amendment by swb · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Of all the bullshit propagated in the most recent drive for gun control the one thing that always strikes me as the most outrageous and unproven is the claim that the NRA is a "gun manufacturer's rights organization."

      I'm sure this started out the way that most left wing propaganda starts out, with some ideology theorist claiming that because the NRA isn't a "hunting" organization, they really only represent the evil capitalist gun manufacturers who make non-hunting guns.

      While I reject that line of reasoning in totality, it's the only logical way that the claim they are only a "gun manufacturer's rights organization" even makes sense. Anything else just seem either totally illogical (ie, why support gun makers if no citizen can buy their product?) or just an attempt to paint gun makers as some kind of evil Wall street plot.

      I think what pisses off gun control advocates is how well organized and vertically integrated gun rights support is among gun owners, sportsmen and businesses engaged in gun-related products. Gun owners support the NRA, gun makers support the NRA, ammo makers support them and retailers support them. In many cases, a gun maker will SUBSIDIZE an NRA membership if you aren't a member and buy their product. Many retailers support the "round up for the NRA" program making it easy for buyers to round-up their purchase price to the nearest dollar and send it to the NRA. And the businesses put their money where their mouth is and put millions of dollars into the NRA to keep our gun rights secure.

      Nobody would say boo if, for example, all the PC makers made it easy to support the EFF the way that gun makers do for the NRA.

    16. Re:Second Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You first. After I see you pick up your guns and lead the charge, I'll follow.

      I'm betting you won't be picking up anything except another bowl of cheetos.

    17. Re:Second Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Yes. And there's no violation of the 4th Amendment if you willingly wave that right and say, "Come right on in and look around!" The 4th is only about coerced searches.

      This was modded up?

      The searches in Boston weren't "consensual" by any definition of the word. Luckily, people took videos of the police, even if in their disarmed state they couldn't stand up to them. The police were showing up with a SWAT team, banging on the door, holding the person who answered outside at gunpoint, and searching the houses. On the street even more SWAT team members waited in a tank with guns aimed at people visible through windows - including the person taking the video.

      But go ahead, explain to me how that's not a "coerced" search.

      And then the people cheered the police over this behavior - literally, there were people in the streets thanking the police for stripping them of their Constitutional rights. It's absolutely sickening and a perfect example of why the OP is absolutely right. People need to stand up for their rights against a police force that does not hesitate to use excessive force against their own population.

    18. Re:Second Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is it your argument that as long as the government is not dismembering children whatever else they do is ok?

      Looked almost like he was saying that everyone's rights are worthless when compared to the lives and/or well-being of a few. Isn't that pretty much the mentality used to justify the TSA, among other things?

    19. Re:Second Amendment by blackraven14250 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, seeing the celebrations in the street kinda threw me for a loop too. Sure, this was a guy who needed to be caught and tried for his crimes, but that ourpouring in the streets caught me as being too similar to scenes in 1984 (the 2 minute hate, and the prisoners being paraded around) and that I imagine happened in Nazi Germany.

    20. Re:Second Amendment by dcollins117 · · Score: 1

      No one is ever going to take up arms against the government, and if someone does, he's easily dismissed as a kook by the media, and killed in a hail of gunfire and we all cheer on TV that we've been "saved" from this guy by the long arm of oppression.

      People aren't taking up arms against the government because that's not how we do things in the United States. People effect change in government at the ballot box. It may not be fast enough for your liking, but it's certainly more civilized.

      What's astonishing is that this system works at all given the diversity of personal incentives, political agendas, and world views of so many people acting independently (presumably in their own self-interest.) Change does occur, it's just hard to see it happening when you examine the minutiae of day-to-day events.

    21. Re:Second Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They shut down a few blocks in Watertown (not Boston)after a night long spree that ended up with unexploded ordinance, abandoned vehicles, suicide vests and injured and dead police officers for less than 24 hours during a manhunt to keep people from being injured. The citizen who found the guy was outside of the area but chose to remain inside during the lockdown. Did you not see how many people were outside? Seems to me to be a rather specific use of martial law. The guy also didn't see bloody footprints, his boat was smeared with blood. It should also be noted that many people did not think it was okay, but when it's martial law and the largest single mobilization of police and military in the city it's rather unlikely you would have been able to hold them off with your hunting rifle.

    22. Re:Second Amendment by PraiseBob · · Score: 1

      I'm saying when compared to dismembering children, searching a house WITH the homeowners permission, but WITHOUT an easily obtained warrant, is the lesser evil. It isn't great, and they certainly could have gone about it in a better way. But lets not pretend that the impact of looking for a person is worse than the impact of detonating bombs in a public place. Sorry if that is too pragmatic for ya.

    23. Re:Second Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The constitution was suspended. Martial law had been declared in the name of public safety.

    24. Re:Second Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the NRA makes millions from gun manufacturers and demand total obedience. They also provide NRA memberships with firearms purchases. While it's not solely an arm of the manufcaturers to say that the manufacturers do not set policy and have enormous sway is disingenuous.

      http://www.factcheck.org/2013/01/do-assault-weapons-sales-pay-nra-salaries/

      EFF is already demonized without PC sales, and they specifically take a stand against many organized PC makers. I'd say that this is closer to the MPEG-LA group than the EFF.

    25. Re:Second Amendment by moeinvt · · Score: 1

      "NRA is largely a gun manufacturer's rights organization, more so than one representing the actual people that are members."

      Did you know that NRA membership is not free? There are over 5 million "actual people" who are members. The willingness of those people to continue paying their membership dues is a CLEAR indication that the NRA's actions largely reflect the will of the membership.

      I sometimes disagree with what they do, like when they decided to endorse Romney, but typically they are doing a good job of protecting our rights.

      I would absolutely LOVE to have an organization which defended the 4th Amendment as successfully as the NRA has defended the 2nd.

    26. Re:Second Amendment by SirMIPSALot · · Score: 3

      Membership dues provide less than half of the NRA's funding - a very large amount (tens of millions) come through sales of guns. How various organizations under the umbrella of the NRA get funded

      So the NRA at least has a financial interest in the success of the gun manufacturing industry.

      The quid-pro-quo for the gun manufacturing industry came when the NRA pushed and got passed legal immunity for liability related to the use of the gun industry's products, even in the case of defective and unsafe products. This was unprecedented. Manufacturers of defective or unsafe weapons now enjoy legal protection that Ford never received when manufacturing the Pinto.

      The NRA does not act solely as a gun-manufacturers rights organization, but it is both significantly funded by gun manufacturers and has acted to protect the financial interests of the gun manufacturers. It is not "outrageous" to point this out.

    27. Re:Second Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For proof that the NRA is at it's core a trade/industry group organization, keep an eye on the NRA's response to the 3D printable guns story. If the NRA were wholly a rights organization, they would position themselves fully behind the freedom to arm one's self afforded by 3D printing technology. But that will have potential implications on their client's bottom lines. When the NRA issues a response (and their silence thus far has been telling), it will clearly demonstrate who is really calling the tunes.

    28. Re:Second Amendment by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1
    29. Re:Second Amendment by Bigby · · Score: 1

      Although some were coerced, others weren't.

      But back to the subject: the US government should not need a warrant to view your mail on Google if Google lets them look at it. If Google doesn't, the government can get around the 4th amendment by legally writing a law to levy a 95% tax on Google's income unless Google lets the FBI monitor all email. There's always a loophole...

    30. Re:Second Amendment by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      It looked like a typical manhunt. I've seen officers actually put on their lights and speed and run redlights ignoring traffic laws and endangering the public during incidents like this. Imagine that. They've even been known to put up roadblocks and demand peoples driver licenses and insurance forms. They've even gone so far as to ask people if they've been drinking and check them for their alcohol level. It is called public safety. Maybe they abused it in Watertown but it doesn't seem the residents think so. If I don't feel my rights have been violated then I guess they haven't been.

    31. Re:Second Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If people "let" them do it, then they are waiving their rights and don't need a warrant.

    32. Re: Second Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let's not be too harsh on Americans. Most people are sheeple, no matter where they live.

      Yes, but the US-ians are boasting sheeple with their "land of the free" and 4th amendment.

    33. Re:Second Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are correct.

      However my thesis is that the NRA is too successful and will pay a price for it. Much like Iran is paying the price for having a too successful Islamic Revolution. The NRA currently seems to believe that it can play the game they've played for the last 30 years and get the same outcomes. It cannot.

      The US is a democracy still. Any organization that believes it can resist the will of 90% of the people is living in a dreamworld. Even the majority of NRA members believes in the recently proposed (and defeated) legislation.

      The success of the NRA at lobbying has led to pride and arrogance. They propose guns as the answer to all questions, the solution to all problems. This will not stand.

      "Guns don't bring freedom. People bring freedom."

    34. Re:Second Amendment by TheGoodNamesWereGone · · Score: 1

      People are like the proverbial frog put in a pot to boil. This has been going on a long time. I thought for sure that Americans would revlt against the TSA fondling them at airports, but we've become a nation of compliant sheep.

    35. Re:Second Amendment by swb · · Score: 1

      It is impossible to separate the benefits to gun makers from the benefits to gun owners; they are all mutually self-reinforcing. Gun makers are lost without gun buyers and even gun makers who have long been major suppliers to the military have begun selling to the consumer -- seldom does a gun magazine these days not have an ad from Fabrique National, for example, and they are a major military contractor who could afford to just ignore consumer sales and keep making light machine guns and FALs for the military.

      Consumers also benefit from a healthy gun marketplace -- more guns, more gun designs, better competition from makers which results in better products at lower prices.

      The immunity laws were passed because gun control advocates, unable to achieve their goals in the legislature, planned to try to bankrupt the gun makers with nuisance tort claims. Families of suicide victims, accidental shootings, etc. would all be trotted out in sympathetic jurisdictions to claim that guns are "defective" because they can kill if you point them at people and pull the trigger.

      Between lengthy lawsuits, jury verdicts and class action claims they hoped to drive gun makers out of business. It's no better than patent trolling and in many ways an extremely cynical and deceptive misuse of the legal system.

      Of course, none of this has anything to do with whether or not a gun is actually "safe" to fire in a responsible manner. All gun makers I've dealt with have stood behind their products and fixed them for free if there were defects in materials or workmanship. Gun accidents can occur because of defects, but gun makers aren't trying to escape that responsibility.

    36. Re:Second Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually Americans have taken up arms against their government all too often. John Brown's raid was an armed rebellion as was the Civil War. And there have been other acts as well. The Oklahoma City bombing may be another.
                  Martin Luther King, much like Ghandi, realized that armed rebellion would cause a loss and therefore only peaceful rebellion had much chance of collapsing a system. Christ also took the same tactic in asking Christians to always obey the law and for slaves to be good slaves. Christ was well aware of the force the Roman legion could exert and the faith needed to survive to reach the world. It is a vital point in the Gospel that He who was without sin went to the cross. It is a statement that even those in peaceful rebellion are often murdered by the state. Dr. king is not here to tell us that he was murdered by the state and neither are JFK or Bobby.

    37. Re:Second Amendment by Tiger+Smile · · Score: 1

      Define slowly?

      --
      -- Prepared at the direction of, or to be sent to Legal Counsel, in anticipation of litigation. Attorney Client Pri
    38. Re:Second Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, it was not a mandatory lockdown.

      This type of pointless pedanticism is what allows governments to take away our rights.

      You're, by the barest of technicalities, correct. It wasn't "mandatory."

      It's just, if they caught you outside, they'd strip search you in front of a national news audience. (Yes, that really happened. The police forced a guy to strip naked because he violated the "voluntary" lockdown.)

      So completely voluntary, assuming you don't mind giving up your Fourth Amendment rights to be secure in your own person. Which is kind of the entire point.

    39. Re:Second Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like you want a civil war...

      Captcha: felony

    40. Re:Second Amendment by SirMIPSALot · · Score: 1

      I'd say that given gun makers received legal immunity from liability, yes, they have taken steps to escape responsibility that other industries do not enjoy. That they fix a broken gun is not the same thing as being held liable if that broken gun led to an accident. My point is that the immunity granted went well beyond the scope you are describing here. The language of the immunity does not stop at lawful use of a firearm - it could have, but didn't. And the manufacturers achieved this with the lobbying effort of the organization they fund - the NRA. To reiterate, it is not "outrageous" to say that the NRA operates, at least at times, in the interests of gun *manufacturers*. This is sometimes (often) coincident with the interests of gun owners, but this is at least one (very prominent) example of the interests of manufacturers being held above the potential liability claims of gun owners. I am not trying to be hyperbolic here - just open-minded. Consumer electronics groups can (and often do) lobby in efforts that are beneficial to users. An open marketplace with competitive products is good for consumers and for manufacturers. Yet if CEA lobbied Congress to hold device manufacturers without liability if their computers exploded (or, say, came with rootkits installed), it would be reasonable to point out that CEA was operating in the interests of the manufacturers -- not the users.

    41. Re:Second Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No one considers the root of the issue. Look at the income tax. It was supposed to be a temporary tax to cover an emergency and was trivial for most working people. That seems so reasonable. But what follows is the expense of a huge, aggressive, permanent agency with so many rules that no mortal understands them and an agency that can crush people at will.
                      Now think about deeper gun purchase checks. You can bet your last penny that it will generate a huge agency and be a lawyers wet dream as well. A person who feels wrongly denied a purchase or carry permit will go to the courts for relief and it will be endlessly complex and expensive.
                      And the 30,000 gun laws already on the books have failed completely. So just what magic suggests that more gun laws will help a bit. We have reached the point where we can not afford to arrest people or put them in prison. Yet criminals know how to quickly and easily bypass all the laws. Ask small store owners how many times people offer to sell them a gun on the quiet. Even in a flea market people stroll in and ask vendors to buy their guns. The vendor will not have any knowledge that the gun is stolen and therefore a conviction may be hard to get. After all it could be a working stiff simply trying to make his rent money by selling his own stuff.
                        Essentially voting for a law comes very close to a vote to strike down freedom. Yet the public supports congressmen and senators who essentially do nothing at all but self promote and pass endless, mostly worthless, laws.

    42. Re:Second Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The marathon bombings were nothing compared to the police action that followed. I must've missed some of the news. How many people had their limbs blown off by the police during the search? How many children were killed during the optional curfew?

      It was most certainly NOT optional.

    43. Re:Second Amendment by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      /Note that they claim that they ignore the 2nd Amendment because the NRA has that one covered.

      Not really - they rather say that, in their opinion, the correct interpretation of 2A is as a "collective right" (militia etc), and they believe that this right is not infringed due to the existence of the National Guard and the State Defense Forces. You may disagree with them (I do), but it is not an unreasonable claim to make.

      At the same time, ACLU did actually get involved in several 2A-related cases, wherea they believed that the same right was granted in a discriminatory fashion to different categories of people. In particular, they argue that legal immigrants should hold all the same rights as citizens with respect to the right to keep and bear arms. So far as I know, they're involved in legal cases in South Dakota and New Mexico regarding this (and I find it really ironic that GOA, otherwise known as the "no-compromise gun rights organization" among many right-wingers, is opposed to the notion that non-citizens may be allowed guns - shows them for the racist redneck dickheads that they actually are; I'll keep giving my money to ACLU and SAF, who are of a single mind on this matter).

    44. Re:Second Amendment by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      The US is a democracy still. Any organization that believes it can resist the will of 90% of the people is living in a dreamworld. Even the majority of NRA members believes in the recently proposed (and defeated) legislation.

      What you ignore is that 90% that supported the recently proposed legislation did not actually have a particularly strong opinion on the issue - not strong enough to, say, go out and protest in the streets, or to spend hundreds of dollars every year on organizations promoting their point of view. For many it was also not the issue over which they would decide to vote or not vote for a given politician - other stuff gets priority. Gun libertarians, on the other hand, are relatively few, but they're very vocal, they're willing to put their money where their mouth is, willing to spend time on various political activity from writing their representatives to organizing street protests, and for many of them gun rights are the most important issue on which they vote. So, ironically, appeasing them is disproportionally important to any elected politician. NRA plays that game, but the rules are the way they are no thanks to them.

    45. Re:Second Amendment by rohan972 · · Score: 1

      Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

      I'm not American but I do believe in the right to revolt against despotic government. I know about various abuses and wars of the US government which are common knowledge. There are at least a couple of reasons why Americans have not risen up against their government:
      1. The conditions of life for the vast majority of Americans is far better than would be had in a civil war.
      2. If you had enough people to win a revolution you could just win an election instead. You can complain about a rigged election system all you like but what proportion of the population do you need to win a civil war? If you had that many people turn up to vote instead of fight you could get your changes without getting killed.

      Believe it or not, not all people who believe in the right to revolution are some sort of trigger happy crazies just looking for an excuse.

    46. Re:Second Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did you know that NRA membership is not free? There are over 5 million "actual people" who are members. The willingness of those people to continue paying their membership dues is a CLEAR indication that the NRA's actions largely reflect the will of the membership.

      Sure! But that cuts both ways: your oh so wonderful government (and the two major parties) are getting tons of funding and donations from your fellow Americans, rich or poor (mostly rich though, as the poor suck up more money than they give through welfare)

      I would absolutely LOVE to have an organization which defended the 4th Amendment as successfully as the NRA has defended the 2nd.

      Then apply the same principle you did apply: pay for such an organization.

      I think it's amusing how many Americans on one hand can complain how TANSTAAFL (in regards to government spending and welfare), but then complain how nobody is protecting their freedoms (for free)

      But what's more amusing is what's pointed out by the OP: the people who have paid (the gun owners) are just sitting on their guns instead of using it to protect their/your freedoms

    47. Re:Second Amendment by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      they rather say that, in their opinion, the correct interpretation of 2A is as a "collective right" (militia etc), and they believe that this right is not infringed due to the existence of the National Guard and the State Defense Forces. You may disagree with them (I do), but it is not an unreasonable claim to make.

      Interesting that since Heller (where the Supremes ruled that the 2nd was an INDIVIDUAL right), they haven't changed their position one iota.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    48. Re:Second Amendment by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Well, they're not obligated to have their position in sync with the standing judicial interpretation - after all, they are a private organization and not a branch of US government. My personal interpretation of the meaning of Commerce Clause is also significantly different from what SCOTUS rulings on it imply it to be.

    49. Re:Second Amendment by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > It's just, if they caught you outside, they'd strip search you in front of a national news audience.

      That would be grounds for a civil right lawsuit of epic proportions.

      Citation needed.

    50. Re:Second Amendment by XcepticZP · · Score: 1

      Here we go: citation 1

      Or another one: citation 2

    51. Re:Second Amendment by swb · · Score: 1

      What responsibility are they evading?

      Neither myself nor any of the other gun owners I know have ever had a problem dealing with the factory on defect issues (and for me this includes ammunition manufacturers, too).

      Rule #1 is a gun is always loaded.

      Rule #2 is not to point at a gun at something you don't want to shoot.

      It's not "...if you think the safety is off" or "if you think it is unloaded" or "if you get wasted and wave it around" or "if you are depressed" or any of the other excuses people make.

      The liability tack is *always* used to claim that gunmakers are avoiding making guns "safe" and that somehow people are getting shot for reasons other than the fact that someone pointed one at them and pulled the trigger. And it's always about a back door route to gun control.

      I've had a very wide exposure to many, many guns and a lot of experience at gun ranges and I'm only aware of one way to innocently get injured by a gun defect and it's tied to ammunition deficiencies -- overcharged cartridge or excessive bullet setback, creating pressures beyond the chamber's ability to contain it.

      Usually this is a result of bad handloading, but I've bought ammo with excessive bullet setback (caused by inadequate crimping). This can result in catestrophic failure, but it's not going to kill you and at worst might maim your hand. Gun barrels, though, are proofed usually at 2-3x normal pressures, so it takes something unusual to blow them up.

  11. Obama lied, Chris Stevens Died by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

    "Pentagon spokesman George Little said, 'We have repeatedly stated that . . . our forces were unable to reach it in time to intervene to stop the attacks.' That is true only if the Pentagon is incapable of improvising. If you see people in a burning house, you do your best to help immediately; you dont wait for the fire department to respond in a normal manner. If called upon, the Marines on Sigonella would have gathered whoever was on hand and piled into one of a dozen military planes parked at the base. The Benghazi airport 90 minutes away was secure; CIA operatives were standing on the runway, because they had improvised by hiring a plane and flying in from the embassy in Tripoli, 400 miles away. A fighter jet could have refueled at that airport, with the CIA providing cover. Instead, the military ordered four Special Operations soldiers at the Tripoli embassy not to fly to Benghazi and join the CIA team."

    1. Re: Obama lied, Chris Stevens Died by CanHasDIY · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Pentagon spokesman George Little said, 'We have repeatedly stated that . . . our forces were unable to reach it in time to intervene to stop the attacks.'

      These are essentially the same people who had solid intel that could have prevented the 9/11/2001 attacks, but did nothing with it.

      Considering recent history, believing a word these vile fucks say is suckerdom to the n-th degree.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    2. Re: Obama lied, Chris Stevens Died by endus · · Score: 1

      These are essentially the same people who had solid intel that could have prevented the 9/11/2001 attacks, but did nothing with it.

      At best, their excuse for this is that they just had too much information to process and could not sift out the relevant information.

      And yet they continue to delve further and further into sources of information which wouldn't have identified any attack on us that's ever taken place. They just keep increasing their surveillance powers with no concrete justification and, in fact, most likely to the detriment of their ability to predict attacks.

      At first, this was due to the culture of "doing something about something" which pervades politics now. An invisible solution that solves the problem doesn't get politicians reelected. A solution which is visible, controversial, and inconvenient allows pols to send the message that they're, "getting tough on _______". Most people in America are pretty stupid, shortsighted, and fearful so they go right along with this.

      Now surveillance has become an end in and of itself. The legal framework for collecting basically any communications at all times has been laid and there's no more political capital to be gained from it. Now the paranoid, the statists, the contractors who need contracts have taken over the fight. They have the legislative framework already, so it's best to keep their operations as quiet as possible to avoid scrutiny of both the obvious unconstitutionality of their actions, and the immense budgets they are getting with no real justification or goals at all. The politicians benefit from the campaign contributions paid for by the tax dollars they funnel in to these companies, and so they keep towing the line.

      I work in infosec, and you can even see this mentality at a corporate level when you have poor security management. More tools! More information! More money! Never mind that the quality of information keeps declining, the need for additional analysts to handle that information keeps increasing and that the incidents these systems are identifying are almost entirely the most trivial and inconsequential events which the organization experiences. Meanwhile, the tools fail to identify really serious issues because they're too immature to do so, and all the analysts are too busy chasing nonsense to have the time to look at the big picture. Policy and product-impacting security measures which would make a real difference are never implemented, because they're too much of a pain in the ass for the people holding the purse strings who, by the way, know absolutely nothing about security and even the regulatory framework in which they operate.

      It's a failing of humans in general. You can see it pretty clearly in US foreign policy since WWII. We escalate conflicts we're ostensibly trying to avoid. We arm and fund people who will eventually become our enemies and cost us even more lives and money to eradicate.

  12. TFA highlights by nimbius · · Score: 3, Interesting

    things like policies on "unopened" email older than 180 days. Are we talking about the 'seen' flag being set? or the file being opened? yeah, of course government law enforcement agencies want the power to snoop on this kind of stuff but it sounds like theyre doing it without a warrant to get around the fact that most judges are completely ignorant about email and electronic communication.
    then again judges have ruled in the past the FBI does not have this kind of broad jurisdiction to warrantlessly read email, so maybe they really are just ignoring the rulings?

    either way, its been proven by multiple school shootings and a recent bombing that spy-on-the-whole-country technology is worthless. it doesnt help anyone prevent or prove crime, it only enables precrime and thoughtcrime to be used as fodder for law enforcement careers and budget proposals.

    --
    Good people go to bed earlier.
    1. Re:TFA highlights by darkmeridian · · Score: 2

      Actually, it is a hyper-technical argument in favor of warrantless searches. The government cannot subpoena your hard drive so long as it is in your house; they have to get a warrant to recover it. But if your hard drive was in someone else's house, the government could conceivably just (according to them) subpoena the hard drive without a warrant because the other person doesn't have a right against seizure of your hard drive.

      Thus, the government arguing that your data is physically in someone else's custody so they can simply subpoena it. However, can you subpoena evidence in a storage warehouse or a bank safety vault?

      --
      A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
  13. I do not mind if they do... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    as long as I do not get in trouble for using encrypted email!

  14. Saw this on the Web today by judoguy · · Score: 5, Interesting
    "And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?... The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If...if...We didn't love freedom enough. And even more - we had no awareness of the real situation.... We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward."

    Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn

    --
    Peace is easy to achieve, just surrender. Liberty is much harder get/keep.
    1. Re:Saw this on the Web today by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Fantastic book, terrifying too.

      Hopefully no one needed to look at the name to know who wrote it.

    2. Re:Saw this on the Web today by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lefties will tell you Solzhenitsyn is just an anti-stalinist whinger that exaggerates the number killed and must be dismissed by any fair minded person.

    3. Re:Saw this on the Web today by kermidge · · Score: 1

      It's all a bit late, I suppose, but what I find appalling about this story and earlier ones in the same vein is the failure of parents and the education system to inculcate sufficient knowledge and understanding in those now in the Dept. of Justice who think warrantless search is somehow good to see that that view is both odious and inimical to individuals, the collective society composed of us all, and the Constitution under which they are supposed to function.

    4. Re:Saw this on the Web today by Holi · · Score: 1

      Where did you get that idea, from the 3 bad reviews???

      --
      Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
    5. Re:Saw this on the Web today by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      Right-wing propaganda won't work. Solzhenitsyn, are you kidding? Talk about an outdated, out-of-touch weirdo. It's like if Abraham Lincoln suddenly arose from the grave and began giving advice to George W. Bush. Totally inappropriate for the situation. Solzhenitsyn was a right-wing nutbag, no doubt about it.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    6. Re:Saw this on the Web today by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... warrantless search is somehow good ...

      That which is necessary is legal!

      "... the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked ... ", Hermann Goering, 1946.

      Notice there are wars against drugs/terror/piracy/pedophiles? The word 'war' certainly suggests that military might be used against the domestic population. The topic of drone strikes and assassinations on US soil was in the news recently.

      In a 150 years the US has gone from banning slavery and eventually segregation, to ignoring its own laws. Copied from another SlashDot story:
        “... Every dictator comes with the same words to the working class: "We are your friends." And for a time, they are. They deliver exactly what they promise: Material prosperity and a sense of pride. But it's temporary and transitive, because it isn't a process that can be stopped once you reach a happy middle-ground... once you start down the path of violence, it becomes cyclical. It builds, viciously eating, biting, and snapping at everything around it, and when there is nothing left to consume... it begins eating itself. The people who built the monstrous machine, cheering it on all the way, become the fuel for its last, gasping breaths. ... "

    7. Re:Saw this on the Web today by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      As much as I like to poke fun at liberals that's really not true. Most liberals hated Stalin for what he did to their cause. What he did was not socialism or even communism but totalitarian despotism of the worst sort. Truly he was little different from Hitler who he was friends with until eventually his buddy stabbed him in the back. Mao and Stalin did more damage to socialism than anyone else.

    8. Re:Saw this on the Web today by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Lenin wasn't so great either. Marx was wrong, there should be no dictatorship of the proletariat. There should be a constitutionally limited democracy of the proletariat.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    9. Re:Saw this on the Web today by Attila+Dimedici · · Score: 1

      is the failure of parents and the education system to inculcate sufficient knowledge and understanding

      It was a failure of parents, but a success of the education system. The progressives in the late 19th century/early 20th century who worked to establish our public school system were working toward this end (read their writings).

      --
      The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. James Madison
    10. Re:Saw this on the Web today by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mao and Stalin did more damage

      If you actually read Solzhenitsyn you'll learn that Communist terror began with Lenin. Solzhenitsyn mocks Western apologists that claim Stalin was an aberration; he details the history behind the deliberate Bolshevik terror, instigated by Lenin.

      Stalin was a symptom of statist tyranny. Stalin will emerge any time hate filled statists can get away with violence.

      Most liberals hated Stalin

      I'm sure you'd like that to be the history, just as Stalin tried to write his own history, but it's not true. Stalin enjoyed the favor of the left, Western statists and the media throughout his reign. He lost some support with Molotov–Ribbentrop, but only because Hitler wasn't a commie. By then (1939) the Soviets has already liquidated millions in the Gulag, executed hundreds of thousands in the Terror and perpetrated the Holodomor, the second deliberate starvation-genocide of the Soviet era, and very publicly to took a giant dump on the whole notion of civilization with the Moscow show trials, cited endlessly by lefties of the day as evidence of the capitalist conspiracy.

      But we need not reach back three quarters of a century to find Stalin's apologists and admirers. They are alive and well, publishing in the (implicitly) leftist US academy today.

    11. Re:Saw this on the Web today by gtirloni · · Score: 1

      Guns require brains to work properly. The later are in short supply. Good luck with your theory.

      --
      none
    12. Re:Saw this on the Web today by killfixx · · Score: 1

      HAHAHA! Case in point, it's spelled latter...not later.

      --
      "Helping to keep you two steps ahead of the Thought Police!"
    13. Re:Saw this on the Web today by kermidge · · Score: 1

      Ah, jeez, hey, just when I was fixin' to crash for the day, ya gots to heap a load of thinking material on me. Thanks heaps, man. [grin] Serves me right, I guess, taking a last pass thru /.

      Only took 150 years.... yeah, well, years back pundits said we wouldn't last half so long. Small comfort, no? 'Sides, the fat lady hasn't sung yet. Has she?

    14. Re:Saw this on the Web today by kermidge · · Score: 1

      Whups. Ouch. Still don't feel any better for only hittin' .500...

      Didn't know, or didn't pay attention at the time I read some of that stuff back in college ('course, I was even more naive then.) I'll have to check it out. But not today, ok?

  15. Hard pressed to disagree by bignetbuy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Cue the flamebait accusations....

    I'm can't disagree with the U.S. Government's position on this one. If data is sent via the Internet, the world's biggest public network, and isn't encrypted, then why should anybody need anything to read it? Unreasonable search and seizure doesn't apply when one person is talking to another person on a street corner...or on the world's biggest public network.

    Encrypt your messages and then an argument can be made for 4th Amendment violations.

    1. Re:Hard pressed to disagree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Encrypt your messages and then an argument can be made for 4th Amendment violations.

      Try explaining this process to the majority of the American public. Seems like nobody else- particularly the government- will at this point.

      At what point, if any, does the relative security of a password protected email client come into play here? Is it completely wrong to assume that passwords imply some modicum of privacy of a conversation among individuals?

    2. Re:Hard pressed to disagree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is not about the interception of plain text messages as they travel through the internet. It is the willful acknowledgement by the DoJ that what is stored (not in transit) on your email hosting provider is and can be ours without cause, need for a warrant, or even an acknowledgement that your email is being reviewed.

      Now, I would love to run my own email hosting, However, if you have ever run an email host, you can be rest assured that you will run into problems/headaches/hassles. Most people see email as a magical text message. I hit send, and away it goes. They prefer to pay a company to provide that service for them. Again, most people assume that this also comes with some form of basic privacy protections. However, given that the DoJ can rewrite what is considered "Private" which leaves many/most Americans vulnerable.

    3. Re:Hard pressed to disagree by Nickodeimus · · Score: 2

      I stated this above but I'll repeat some of it here...


      Data transmitted over the internet is always encapsulated. If you receive data that is not addressed to you you are supposed to discard it (this is how network devices work). If the government reads data that is not addressed to it then it is in violation of the 4th amendment.


      The same could be said of anything stored by any service provider.

      Every piece of data, no matter how small it is, is kept in some sort of container whether in transit or in storage. Those containers are no different than an envelope travelling through the US Postal Service and are thus protected. Encryption shouldn't really matter at that point where the government is concerned. If they want to look at it then they should have to show cause before a judge and that judge should have to sign off on a narrowly defined warrant that allows them to read the data.

    4. Re:Hard pressed to disagree by WillgasM · · Score: 2

      I assume you encrypt your snailmail too. Don't forget to send little Billy the private key so he can read his birthday card.

    5. Re:Hard pressed to disagree by misexistentialist · · Score: 1

      If everything sent on the internet is public then I am owed a lot of porn.

    6. Re:Hard pressed to disagree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What about a sealed envelope sent through the US Postal Service, do they need a warrant to open your mail? Yes.

      What about telephone calls going over the Public Switched Telephone Network, do they need a warrant to listen to your conversations? Yes.

      There is precedent here, the public parts of the communication, including the mailing address on the outside of the envelope or the phone number you are calling from or to is public, what is inside the envelope or the words spoken on a telephone call is not public. Using a 'public' network does not mean that you give up all of your rights.

      If we take the same view of email, then the info used to route your email may be public but the contents of the message are not. See how that works?

    7. Re:Hard pressed to disagree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      my gmail is secure via ssl. let's go ahead and have that talk... oh wait, everyone else is...

    8. Re:Hard pressed to disagree by cervesaebraciator · · Score: 1

      I have a reasonable expectation of privacy if I close the door on a phone booth. Logging into email with a password is not the best security, to be sure. But does this really confer less of a reasonable expectation of privacy than closing a glass door and carrying on a conversation over unencrypted phone lines?

    9. Re:Hard pressed to disagree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where do I encrypt my communications?

      In TLS?
      In the datagram body?
      In IPSEC?

      They're already encoded (in ASCII/UTF-8). Not good enough. Is DES good enough? They can break it... What about RSA & TLS ? There's ways to intercept that too...

      In a VPN to sweden where it goes over HTTPS to google but is then stored in plaintext?
      In a VPN to sweden where it goes over HTTPS to gmail, has a copy saved in my outbox in plaintext, whose mailserver uses STARTTLS to communicate the body securely to yahoo who then saves it in plaintext in the recipients inbox (and trash when they delete it) ?

      Do I encrypt with their PGP key, but fetch it from a keyserver whose CA is ran by the government, and whose CRL by protocol is communicated over HTTP ?

      If I use public DNS, is that fair game to change out the resolved host? Or just to look at what I look up?

      Is a private network established over the public network protected? What if it's invitation only or has a password?

      And unreasonable search and seizure most certainly does apply. I just don't have the right to communications privacy. Just because I'm talking in public doesn't mean you can throw me up against the wall and frisk for contraband.

      Look -- you might think you make a point, but systems are complicated. In practice your technicality leaves /no/ 4th amendment protection. And that is wholly unacceptable?

    10. Re:Hard pressed to disagree by MozeeToby · · Score: 2

      I'm can't disagree with the U.S. Government's position on this one. If your voice is sent via the phone network, the world's public voice network, and isn't encrypted, then why should anybody need anything to listen in on it? Unreasonable search and seizure doesn't apply when one person is talking to another person on a street corner...or on the world's biggest voice network.

    11. Re:Hard pressed to disagree by DirePickle · · Score: 1

      The 4th amendment applies to mail, and you can't get much more plaintext than that.

    12. Re:Hard pressed to disagree by c0lo · · Score: 1

      Cue the flamebait accusations....

      I'm can't disagree with the U.S. Government's position on this one. If voice is sent via the public phone lines/EM-waves, the world's biggest public network, and isn't encrypted, then why should anybody need anything to read it? Unreasonable search and seizure doesn't apply when one person is talking to another person on a street corner...or on the world's biggest public phone network.

      Use a voice scambler and then an argument can be made for 4th Amendment violations.

      There... FTFY.

      --
      Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
    13. Re:Hard pressed to disagree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because your an idiot you are welcome to disagree with the constitution and the courts who have already ruled on this issue.

      Your POTS telephone is "public" and unencrypted. Yet somehow this is different than the Internet. That's right, it's 1990's again and anything on the "Internet" is different someone. I guess sending mail via our public mail system using any standard written language can be intercepted too.

      Idiot. And the mods who voted you up.

    14. Re:Hard pressed to disagree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      e-mail protocols used to transmit messages (my e-mail provider as well as most others, use encrypted traffic to the smtp gateways) - note: if yours doesn't, then you're a moron for using them.

      This means that the e-mail provider is just like the postoffice, and e-mails are like letters being carried by the post office - protected from ILLEGAL search and seizure (ie warrantless is ILLEGAL)...

      once on the servers, the only access to them for 99.9% of the people is through username/password. yes, the backend that the host stores the e-mail might be unencrypted, but most today are encrypted to protect against lunacy.

      since your messages are encrypted by default while sending to the smtp gateway - your expectation is that it's encrypted from you to your intended recipient.

      you have the reasonable expectation of privacy

      your argument is moot and incorrect, and warrantless e-mail snooping is most definitely illegal, goes against the constitution, and by definition is treason.

    15. Re:Hard pressed to disagree by WOOFYGOOFY · · Score: 1

      Get fucking real. The whole purpose of warrants is to stop the government from prying into private affairs . People clearly consider their email private (passwords) and parts of their online social networks private (and part s not) . Are you really going to tell them that it's all just an illusion, ha ha, GOTCHA? It's not a game. It's not a technicality. you and the DOJ are heedlessly fucking with the foundational legitimacy of the government which is nothing ore than the consent of the governed.

      A nation is not a a natural fact, a kind of trap that people are born into and can't get out of. It's an agreed upon structure that holds only so long as all those people who you think have just been fooled and who you think are fools for thinking their private information is private , so long as all those people approve of the government. Past that, if the DOJ and people like you PUT all those OTHER people past that, then the nation ceases to be legitimate and , a little later, ceases to be.

      Please live in reality, not some lawyerly technocratic lobbyist-llike game of GOTCHA, SUCKER! because lawyers and lobbyists forget that the BASIS of their power is not really the government at all, it's the People.

    16. Re:Hard pressed to disagree by ClioCJS · · Score: 1
      So by your logic, I can wiretap your phone and listen to your phone calls, right? After all, the conversation is transmitted over a public network, and not encrypted.

      At what point did you fail to connect the dots?

      --
      -Clio
      Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
      Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
  16. Email and chats are like Post Cards by dehole · · Score: 1

    and should be treated as such. Do you think a post card is a secure way to communicate with someone? If you want your messages to be relatively secure, encrypt them so only the two parties conversing will know the contents. Then they would need a court order to get the encryption key ( if said encryption key doesn't violate your 5th amendment right to not self-incriminate).

    I think its better to encrypt everything, rather than having some off-handed comment taken out of context. I have had 0 luck of convincing anyone else I communicate with to employ such measures though, so eh... Face to face communication is more secure anyways.

    1. Re:Email and chats are like Post Cards by afidel · · Score: 2

      Bullshit, the test is and always has been what a reasonable person assumes, and a reasonable person assumes their personal communications between themselves and a second party are not being eavesdropped, recorder, or otherwise sifted through by their government without a warrant! If we are to pervert the basic tenants of the constitution and the bill of rights to what it is possible for a modern surveillance state to achieve then we should just scrap this government and start over.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    2. Re:Email and chats are like Post Cards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Emails are NOTHING like postcards. If I send a postcard, anyone who sees it laying around can pick it up and read it. If I send an email, sure someone who knows what they're doing might be able to read it, but for they would have to put effort into it. If I send a postcard, I'm going to assume people are going to see it laying on a table somewhere and read it. I do NOT assume the same for an email, because, for the most part, that's just not true. You shouldn't have to choose between sending a postcard, and duct taping your letters shut. There should be an in between, which is when you send a letter, and assume that since it's a letter people aren't going to open it. People can open it, of course, but if they do and they get caught there should be a punishment.

    3. Re:Email and chats are like Post Cards by dehole · · Score: 1

      We claim to have the right to privacy, but when we don't do anything to protect that right, we essentially lose that right (see the Patriot Act). I DO NOT agree with what the government is doing here, which is why I advocate securing/minimizing your communications if at all possible. When it comes to the people's rights vs the governments intentions, lately it seems that the government wins.

    4. Re:Email and chats are like Post Cards by dehole · · Score: 1

      Emails are like postcards in how the text in the email is transmitted between the servers involved. Email leaving my email server will be transmitted in plaintext between my server, and all of the hops between it and the destination mail server. Thus anyone in between the sending server and destination server can read/copy the email and all attachments.

      ANYONE in between the gmail and the yahoo server can fully inspect and copy the message, and there is nothing you can do to prevent it. Did someone lie to you and tell you that your email or chat messages are private?

    5. Re:Email and chats are like Post Cards by Holi · · Score: 1

      What about google mail, they require all communications to go over SSL,

      --
      Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
    6. Re:Email and chats are like Post Cards by kermidge · · Score: 1

      So far as I can see over the years is that most folks who use email equate it in their own minds as the same as writing a letter, sealing it in an envelope, affixing a stamp, and mailing it. That this doesn't accord with reality is in that sense superfluous.

      When "out of the blue" (so to speak) someone now says one must encrypt email so as to have the same privacy as a sealed envelope is an unreasonable stance, given the above, and that email providers and email clients did not offer transparent automatic encryption out of the box nor unmistakeably educate and help their customers in its use, all the while knowing the facts and never bothering to warn the users (fine print in some cases notwithstanding).

      While you are correct so far as things stand, it is in no way helpful to people for you to suppose that somehow they will find and figure out how to install and use encryption software and get everyone with whom they correspond to do the same, along with any companies they might communicate, to attain the privacy they'd presumed all along. It's absurd on its face.

      I think it would be far easier, more politic, and certainly in accord with our Constitution, to regard email as snail mail, and require warrants for its inspection.

      If it's workable one might further look at end-to-end encryption from end-user to end-user at the level of modem/router, etc. I've no idea if that could be done.

    7. Re:Email and chats are like Post Cards by moeinvt · · Score: 1

      The fact that it is technically possible, or even "easy", for someone to intercept and read an unencrypted communication in transit between two servers does NOT mean that the government should have the legal authority to do it.

      It's no great technical challenge for them to open an envelope, listen to a phone call or even kick down your door and search your house either. That doesn't mean it should be LEGAL for the government to do this.

    8. Re:Email and chats are like Post Cards by dehole · · Score: 1

      When your using HTTPS (SSL) to compose your message in a webmail interface like gmail, that connection is secure. Once you send that message from google mail, that message and all of its attachments are sent in clear text between google mail and the destination email server. I imagine it would be secure from being read by a third party if your recipient also has google mail.

      Since the networks that these large email companies use are huge, it can be assumed that you have to be a pretty large business in order to have access to the fiber between these mega mail networks.

      Google is an advertising company that happens to offer many great products, the problem in my view is that they use every drop of information they can to improve their advertising. I personally do not trust advertising agencies with private information, and I am changing my preferences so that those advertising agencies have as little information about me as possible. If that means switching to a paid email offering, that is something I'd be willing to do.

    9. Re:Email and chats are like Post Cards by Bigby · · Score: 1

      I think this is correct, but they are likely searching email without warrant after it reached its destination. That is where it is wrong, unless the owner (like Google for Gmail email) gives permission. You do not own your email on Gmail. Google does.

    10. Re:Email and chats are like Post Cards by dehole · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the insight, I guess people do view email in that fashion.

      I think a new paradigm of digital communication will need to be developed, and gain popularity, for there to be a secure messaging alternative that people can accept. I'm currently working on a secure alternative to DropBox and Rapidshare's sharing tool, which will allow you to share files without a server middle man.

      If I'm successful in making it, perhaps you'll read about it on Slashdot :P

    11. Re:Email and chats are like Post Cards by Jumperalex · · Score: 1

      I'd like it if we applied a slightly modified version of this ... instead of asking the question, "what does a reasonable person *expect* to be private?" We should ask ourselves, "What do we as The People *want* to be private? Do we *want* our private correspondence, regardless of transmission or storage medium, to be subject to 4th amendment protections or not?"

      Because i believe that is the question The Founders (tm) were asking themselves. And we know their answer. As time went on and society and technology advanced the courts have used various tests to draw lines. Lines that seemed reasonable until they become convoluted tortured logic paths to fit square pegs into round holes in the name of jurisprudence. At some point we need to hit the big red RESET button and ask ourselves that basic question: What do we want as a free society and how do we get there the simplest way possible?

      --
      If you can't be good, be good at it!
    12. Re:Email and chats are like Post Cards by Qzukk · · Score: 1

      and should be treated as such

      So I can break into your house and read the postcards you already received, and you're cool with that?

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    13. Re:Email and chats are like Post Cards by kermidge · · Score: 1

      And I'll be happy to look forward to seeing what you might come up with. 'Course, you could always ask Kim Dotcom.

      Not sure we need a whole new paradigm, or even a pair of nickels. (sorry, it's late) Mostly just extend current protections to email and the like. The concepts and legal structure are already in place or in the wings.

      See, here's the thing - we're told stuff about 'reasonable expectation of privacy' (the area of which seems to be shrinking by the decade) to the extent that soon there will be none at all - either privacy or its expectation. We're told, and we expect, since it at first blush makes sense, that for instance a conversation between two people on the street carries no expectation for privacy.

      Thing is, in many societies if you happen to pass two people talking in normal tones while you may hear a snippet, a sentence or two, you likely won't pay it much mind, it's basically in one ear and out the other. This will vary a bit. You might overhear something that relates to something you like or dislike, either one of which might do more to engage your attention. In the main, tho, you'll regard their conversation as none of your business and thus, essentially, private.

      Extend this to two people talking at a table in a restaurant. Same deal. The cops and the lawyers and the courts and the legislatures all pretty much say those aren't private, when in fact most of us might well tend to say that they are; here privacy and our collective sense of what makes up 'good manners' or courtesy coincide. In Japan, for instance, or even on many crowded islands, there even arises willful inattention - to accord privacy to that which demonstrably is not so. Boils down to we mostly generally (at least, my generation did) try to be polite and not nosy - not just because we expect the same in return but just as simply because it was thought wrong to do otherwise.

      The technical minded and those who know about email will say, "hey, idjit, it's sent in _cleartext_ ffs". Yeah. It is. So? If you come across a letter left on a counter in the break room or so, are you gonna just start reading it? In my day, no. Today? I don't know.

      Sorry, dehole, rambling instead of sleeping. Glad, pleased, even a bit proud you stopped to think a bit on my post. And I know I missed a point I wanted to try to make. Fun getting old and tired. Be well, and good luck.

    14. Re:Email and chats are like Post Cards by dehole · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the reply kermidge. In an ideal world, we could trust that what we say and write online is private, but as you've said, that's not how things currently work.

      I'd like there to be an 'email for files', where you can send a file to grandma easily and without worry, even if that file has all of your account information on it. It is a problem currently that hasn't really been solved, which is why I'm looking into it.

      While it will probably be one of those projects that I start and give up on, I think it could be useful to some. Better to be upfront with reality than pretend that this project you WILL finish, unlike the dozens before it :)

      Have a good one,
      dehole

    15. Re:Email and chats are like Post Cards by sjames · · Score: 1

      If you think postcards carry no protection under law, try prying open a public mailbox and reading some...

  17. What if Twitter and FB disagree? by schwit1 · · Score: 1

    Will someone be arrested for obstruction?

    1. Re:What if Twitter and FB disagree? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Will someone be arrested for obstruction?

      No, we won't arrest anyone... ...they'll just disappear

    2. Re:What if Twitter and FB disagree? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course not, they're rich

  18. There is a silver lining here by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

    ...show a split over electronic privacy rights within the Obama administration, with Justice Department prosecutors and investigators privately insisting they're not legally required to obtain search warrants for e-mail."

    That implies that Obama really is trying to keep his promise about transparency, but he is fighting his own organization. The article doesn't mention Obama at all though.

    1. Re:There is a silver lining here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I call BS. The President selects the people for these key positions. The President supports this wholeheartedly, these are all his guys. He just doesn't want to "appear" to support it. He could stop it if he wanted to, he just doesn't want to... and supporters don't want to admit that this President isn't that much different from the last. He just gets better press.

    2. Re:There is a silver lining here by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 2

      That implies that Obama really is trying to keep his promise about transparency, but he is fighting his own organization. The article doesn't mention Obama at all though.

      Obama supports Holder completely.

      Until Holder does something REALLY unpopular, then it's "The Buck Never Got Here"....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    3. Re:There is a silver lining here by poity · · Score: 1

      DOJ is part of the Exec branch, with Obama at its head. With a word, he could change this. Of course, it's far too convenient not to.

      --
      your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
  19. lol privacy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    NOT ON MY WATCH

    1. Re:lol privacy by slashdyke · · Score: 1

      I would have to agree. Much as I dislike it, there is no privacy, "on my watch". Too many digital cameras with photos to facebook. Too many security cameras. To much data collection. I am sure my bank has a better idea of how much I actually drive, and where I go, based on where I use my debit and credit cards. So, yeah. Privacy? Not on my watch, not until the end of civilization as we have come to know it.

  20. I'm waiting for... by Bartles · · Score: 1

    ...the marches and protests on Washington Mall, complete with giant presidential effigies and Hitler mustaches.

    1. Re:I'm waiting for... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'll be the guy handing out GPG fliers. If there was ever a time to actually start using encryption en masse...

    2. Re:I'm waiting for... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can't do that! That would be racist! Now if we had some stupid old white man....

  21. Better update my HOSTS file by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Pretty sure I saw a post somewhere that showed how to prevent this exact situation... can't be too sure though... the post was kinda long...

  22. Re:Frosty Piss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The FBI is reading /s posts. You have been warned.

    I'd be more worried about them reading /b posts honestly.

  23. tick-tock by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    tick-tock tick-tock tick-tock

  24. This just in! by Karmashock · · Score: 1

    People aren't encrypting enough...

    Its clearly too easy for them. If we encrypt more then they might have a harder time violating rights.

    --
    I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
  25. Yes, but... by Zcar · · Score: 4, Informative

    Yes, those all apply to email in your possession. But, not necessarily to those stored with third parties. It's called the Third Party Doctrine.

    http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/article/the_data_question_should_the_third-party_records_doctrine_be_revisited/

    In essence, the doctrine holds that information lawfully held by many third parties is treated differently from information held by the suspect himself. It can be obtained by subpoenaing the third party, by securing the third party’s consent or by any other means of legal discovery; the suspect has no role in the matter, and no search warrant is required.

    1. Re:Yes, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Third party hints at the real ruling that should happen over almost anything involving the Internet and that is the information is hearsay and therefore inadmissible as evidence. Digital is always in some fashion potentially fraudulent evidence and being on the Internet potentially gives access to the world to commit that fraud.

    2. Re:Yes, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So fuck gmail, hotmail, twitter and all that crap. Host your e-mail yourself and encrypt the bitch, it's so simple.

  26. Badges? by 0xG · · Score: 1

    We don't need no stinking badges!

    --
    A pox on web designers who feel that window.innerWidth == screen.availWidth
  27. The Constitution V2.0 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "You have no rights. That is all."

    Much easier to memorise than that old-fashioned, long-winded stuff using complicated words.

  28. Obama, or Holder, or Who??? by jasnw · · Score: 0

    Since Day 1 of the Obama presidency I've wondered about our Attorney General and the whole attitude and actions of the DOJ. At least once a month they do something that seems counter to what I think Obama and the Democratic Party stand for, and there's no outcry from either. Is Holder like an earlier DOJ Bad Boy (J. Edgar Hoover) in that he has a closetful of incriminating evidence on every politician in DC? The entire bureaucratic structure that is the DOJ needs to be cleaned out and re-staffed, pretty much from the ground up. I don't know if this is carry-forward from people buried deep in the DOJ during the Bush the Lesser years, or if this really is a reflection of what Holder, and perhaps his nominal bosses, want to see happen? I don't want to sound all paranoid about this, but I am.

    1. Re:Obama, or Holder, or Who??? by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      At least once a month they do something that seems counter to what I think Obama and the Democratic Party stand for, and there's no outcry from either.
      .
      .
      .

      I don't want to sound all paranoid about this, but I am.

      Your mistake is the "I think Obama and the Democratic Party stand for" part.

      It's pretty clear if you read enough history that the Democratic Party doesn't actually stand for much of what their PR guys want you to think they stand for.

      Ditto Obama.

      And for those who are about to mod me Flamebait/Troll, ditto the Republican Party.

      Alas, can't go into Romney and McCain the same way, because I didn't vote for either of them, and never even considered the possibility of voting for either of them, so I didn't listen to them enough to find out whether they were hypocrites.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    2. Re:Obama, or Holder, or Who??? by wytcld · · Score: 2

      As a Democrat who follows the standard array of leftie fora, I can assure you that (1) nobody in the progressive, activist core of the party likes Holder even slightly, and (2) the majority of us are quite open about it. That includes not a few of us who on balance like his boss.

      As for our Democratic senators, too many of them are old, coming from a time when success in politics required bowing to "law and order." And a number of them were prosecutors in their younger life. Younger Democrats are, almost across the board, left-libertarian and wish Holder were impeached as a traitor to the Constitution. In his earlier career he was a lawyer serving the big investment banks. He still is. We're all shamed by him.

      --
      "with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
    3. Re:Obama, or Holder, or Who??? by jasnw · · Score: 1

      So, if everyone hates him why is he still the AG? I've heard nothing from the executive branch that event hints that he's in trouble with The Boss, and with the opportunity to switch horses at the start of the new (and final) term, why did Obama keep him on? That's the question.

  29. data at rest vs. data in transit by PetiePooo · · Score: 2

    If data is sent via the Internet, the world's biggest public network, and isn't encrypted, then why should anybody need anything to read it? . . .

    Encrypt your messages and then an argument can be made for 4th Amendment violations.

    You're not distinguishing between data in transit and data at rest. And it's an important distinction. Using Google's mail service as an example, my gmail is encrypted in transit via SSL. Always. I use HTTPS-Everywhere plugin to ensure that.

    That said, I don't know how Google stores it while it rests on their servers, but it is in that state that the government claims they have a right to inspect it without a warrant. I hope it's encrypted, but it's not under my direct control. And it sounds like government is insisting Google not only give them access but share any keys they use to encrypt the data at rest. That means, if it is encrypted on their servers, that only helps protect it from hackers and accidental disclosure, not from authorized (by Google) agents.

    The solution, as you hinted at, would be to encrypt your messages with something like PGP or GnuPG before sending them (in transit) or storing them (at rest) in either your or the recipient's mailbox. That puts the encryption keys squarely under your control, and makes the stored ciphertext inaccessible to the government, but comes with its own usability and key management issues. It's not something your everyday user is going to be comfortable with.

    I don't believe that should mean that the less technically adept experience less privacy, but that's just my humble opinion...

    1. Re:data at rest vs. data in transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're not distinguishing between data in transit and data at rest. And it's an important distinction. Using Google's mail service as an example, my gmail is encrypted in transit via SSL. Always. I use HTTPS-Everywhere plugin to ensure that.

      Your connection to the "Web" portal of Gmail is encrypted, sending messages (excluding those the gmail.com and other domains handled by google) via SMTP is NOT encrypted unless you add it into the message encoding with S/MIME our other equivalent. (the same can also apply to IMAP/POP as some only encrypt the login, not the content)

      Storage is a different matter as google may use HTTPS for transport but store it in clear-text on their data-stores.

  30. As usual...... unjust control. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There is freedom of speech in Soviet America. There is no freedom AFTER speech.

  31. Re:Anonymous by homey+of+my+owney · · Score: 4, Informative

    Really. Carnivore has been around for 15 years.

  32. No, cue dumbass accusations though by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The mail that passes through the US postal system is not encrypted (and sorry, a white piece of paper protecting your mail from view is not considered encryption)

    With that being said how does electronic mail apply any differently in regards to the 4th amendment? The US postal service is a public network too.

    Encryption has nothing to do with this, other than ensuring your data can't be read at all in-between destination and receiving point. It has nothing to do whether or not you are guaranteed and inalienable right to privacy. The inalienable right to privacy existed long before your precious encryption. Encryption is only a tool for advanced tech people (and those who provide it by default in email services) to thwart the powers that be; and an inalienable right should not only be afforded to the advanced tech crowd.

  33. "The Law Doesn't Apply To Us" by EmagGeek · · Score: 3, Insightful

    When your government starts telling you that, it is a sign that you are having a crisis and need to swap out your government for a new one before it becomes impossible to do so.

    It may already be too late.

    1. Re:"The Law Doesn't Apply To Us" by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      Every American should buy a 3D printer.

    2. Re:"The Law Doesn't Apply To Us" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When your government starts telling you that, it is a sign that you are having a crisis and need to swap out your government for a new one before it becomes impossible to do so.

      It may already be too late.

      Why do you say that? There's an election every two years. The people can—and do—overthrow the government regularly and bloodlessly.

      If you still have a problem, it's not with the government but with the people. People can be replaced as well but that requires a bit more patience as well as liberal immigration policies.

    3. Re:"The Law Doesn't Apply To Us" by EmagGeek · · Score: 1

      You know, there's a saying that, in theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is.

      In theory, you are right, but in practice, you are not. The pool of candidates consists of two buckets of the same manure. It doesn't matter who you vote for - you are getting the same thing.

    4. Re:"The Law Doesn't Apply To Us" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, rather than going around shooting, I think it would be sufficient to fundamentally change the way we select our government. It's clear that the traditional election process results only in selecting the worst possible people for the job. There is definitely a punishment associated with running for office, taken out mostly by the sensationalist media that gets paid a lot of money to destroy people, and most good people do not want to go through that - it is only the most power-hungry, hollow worthless assholes that are willing to do it, because of the riches they will accumulate while in office.

      The corruption in our government is really amazing when you think about it. We have Presidents putting CEOs of major corporations in charge of agencies whose job it is to protect the people's rights from being infringed by those corporations. We have contracts being awarded to companies owned by family members of the people deciding those contracts. We have companies selling $5 hammers to the government for $500 just because they can - basically just stealing money from the taxpayer.

      We really have become Rome, where nobody cared how much government spent as long as they had their free shit. Top to bottom corruption. A completely flawed and dishonest election process. It all has to be changed if it can be at this point.

      Save the bullets for that moment when the people realize it's the only way government can change.

    5. Re:"The Law Doesn't Apply To Us" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What you are arguing for is a Syrian-style dictatorship.

      I happen to live in a Nordic country where people by-and-large are relatively happy with the political system (even if they hated the current administration).

  34. actually by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    they do.

  35. They did it to Bush by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm eagerly awaiting the wall to wall coverage that the major media will give this story, and their endless castigation of President Obama for it.

  36. Says right on the bottom.... by Dareth · · Score: 1

    "Comments owned by the poster."

    I will believe that when they add an "edit" button at least for a short while after posting.

    --

    I only look human.
    My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
    1. Re:Says right on the bottom.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Comments owned by the poster."

      I will believe that when they add an "edit" button at least for a short while after posting.

      I just put "This comment is owned by Slashdot, Slashdot is entirely responsible for this comment" after all my posts.

      Notice:This comment is owned by Slashdot, Slashdot is entirely responsible for this comment

  37. Definition of people has changed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Corporations are people, humans aren't.
    Money is speech, writing isn't.
    Democracy has sold out.

    Didn't you get the memo?

    movetoamend.org if you don't like it.

  38. This falls right in line with everything else by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 1

    It's really not a stretch for what they currently have permission to do when you think about it. If your private communications are stored at a remote location with a private entity, then there's a precedence for allowing the government to access that information. In the same way the government is forbidden from maintaining their own databases of this data, but they're permitted to license it from a private entity.

    Absolutely a terrible idea IMO, but it shows you how far the government can and will go when you cede seemingly innocuous rights.

    --
    I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
  39. Oklahoma by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In Oklahoma, it is a felony to build your house in a way that might make it more difficult to police to enter it should they decide to do so. The law they passed makes burglar-resistant doors a felony, because they are also cop-resistant doors, and cops must have free access to your home whenever they want it.

    How is this logically different from making it a felony to make it more difficult to read your email, like by encrypting it?

    1. Re:Oklahoma by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      Interesting line you spout there Mr. AC! Given that an Oklahoma TV station actually gives out tips on how to make your home more burglar resistant, and RECOMMENDS that you "Install steel doors that aren't as easily kicked in and put in good deadbolts that extend at least one inch into the doorjamb", I'm gonna have to call BULLSHIT on your post. Reference, please?

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
  40. There is no "electronic privacy" by erroneus · · Score: 1

    The subject is misleading as to my stance on the issue.

    The fact that they want to prepend "electronic" to the notion of privacy is disgusting. It's as if the medium has any bearing on the question of 4th amendment rights. It doesn't and shouldn't.

    The nature of the medium itself could b a determining factor, but the fact is that email, for example, has a sender and an intended recipient. It is transmitted over the public internet, of course, but is this really so different than the US Mail which is already unquestionably protected under the 4th?

    1. Re:There is no "electronic privacy" by cervesaebraciator · · Score: 1

      Or to put it another way, "[Goldman v. U.S.'s] limitation on Fourth Amendment protection is, in the present day, bad physics as well as bad law, for reasonable expectations of privacy may be defeated by electronic as well as physical invasion."

  41. Internet communications being public by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well then, if I just so happen to acquire Intellectual Property on the public internet, it isn't piracy after all. The owners have no right to it after the data entered the internet right?

    What about your bank account details? What if I just so happen to listen in before it becomes encrypted and empty your bank account. You have no argument for your rights being violated. You gave access freely to anyone that was listening by doing your banking 'on a computer'.

    See where this fails. Just because something is done via network should not give everyone and anyone rights to it.

    1. Re:Internet communications being public by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well then, if I just so happen to acquire Intellectual Property on the public internet, it isn't piracy after all. The owners have no right to it after the data entered the internet right?

      You must be new here. The popular opinion on slashdot is very much pro-piracy and anti-copyright. I suppose this is partly of why the OP said what he said

  42. Re:Fourth Amendment - Silly Americans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Silly Americans, the cloud is"above" your house.

  43. Why is this news? by mrbrown1602 · · Score: 1

    Email, phone records, bank statements, etc. are all business records in the possession of a third party (i.e. your provider). Anybody can lawfully subpoena those records...

    Maybe it's just because I'm a lawyer, but you have no right to privacy in something that you don't control and that other folks (read: employees of your provider) have access to.

    1. Re:Why is this news? by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      So is the letter you hand to the postman. You don't get to read that without a warrant.

      This is clearly frog cooking, eviscerating the intent of the 4th amendment.

    2. Re:Why is this news? by mrbrown1602 · · Score: 1

      Mail can't be opened without a warrant because it is against federal law to open mail without a warrant (unless it looks suspicious or dangerous), not because of the 4th amendment. Different animal entirely.

      Again, email is a business record in the possession of a third party. You have no reasonable expectation of privacy in it.

  44. Don't care ... by PPH · · Score: 2

    ... what the DoJ says. What does the court say?

    The DoJ is the logical equivalent of the local cops. They are the 'hired muscle' used to bring suspects before the court system for trial and to prosecute them (represent the public's case in criminal trials). They don't make the law. Nor do they apply it to individual cases.

    Of course, the cops are going to claim as much power as they can get away with.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
    1. Re:Don't care ... by Whorhay · · Score: 2

      Well the concern is that they don't necessarily have to bring any of the illegally obtained evidence up in court, but it could still help build a case that wouldn't otherwise exist.

      The point is that they should not be operating in an illegal manner whether or not it would jeopardize a criminal case. What if the DoJ next decides that torture is acceptable. Do you really think that just because it can't be used in court that there wouldn't be any negative outcomes from that stance?

    2. Re:Don't care ... by PPH · · Score: 1

      Illegally obtained == stolen

      When you vote for your judges (if you do), make sure you ask them during their campaign if they are willing to find police officers and departments guilty of violations of the law. And are willing to sentence them to the same terms as civilians.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  45. From a May 6 Commencement address by President OBa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    PRESIDENT OBAMA:" Unfortunately, you've grown up hearing voices that incessantly warn of government as nothing more than some separate, sinister entity that's at the root of all our problems. Some of these same voices also do their best to gum up the works. They'll warn that tyranny always lurking just around the corner. You should reject these voices."

  46. Key management by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    All we need is email programs that perform a Diffie-Hellman key exchange during the first few emails you exchange with anybody

    As always, the hardest part of practical cryptography is key management. What you are talking about is opportunistic encryption. It won't actually prevent decryption but it will force the attacker to do an active Man-In-The-Middle attack, which can be detected after the fact.

    This should be the default mode of operation for PGP mail. Whenever you send an email it should append your public key into the headers. As soon as your interlocutor responds, he can encrypt his reply and sign with his own public key, so all messages but the first one are encrypted. It should just work, nothing should be exposed to the user except a small keylock, which he can click if he's so inclined and verify things like key thumbprint etc. to detect tampering and/or explore full PGP functionality.

    For an environment such as webmail, this still offers zero security: you either keep the private key on the server, or you do the encryption operations on the clients's side. Since Javascript run-time a href=http://www.matasano.com/articles/javascript-cryptography/>is malleable it's very easy to retrieve the private key or the plain text back from the user when the government asks you.

  47. Pathetic sheeple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is funny to watch the land of the free turn into the worst police state in the world while its citizens watches idly and does absolutely nothing. You deserve it all and the only sad part is all the lives lost in the fight for freedom that you just toss away in the gutter for a couple of shiny gadgets and a house/car the banks own.

    lol!

  48. Just like their coporate owners by future+assassin · · Score: 1

    stick mobile,computer or electronic before the description/thing and you can re patent existing patents. If its data you have to rights....

    --
    by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
  49. Oh, yes they do! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    To access the e-mail stored on the server in my home, the government needs a search warrant.

  50. Second Amendment ... by pollarda · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The gun issue not withstanding, the Government's attack on the Second Amendment is horrific and sets up really bad precidence for the Fourth Amendment, First Amendment, as well as others.

    FOURTH AMENDMENT
    Just think: In order to exercise your Fourth Amendment rights against unreasonable search and seizure, the Government needs to perform a background check on you to ensure that you are an upstanding citizen.

    FIRST AMENDMENT
    In order to exercise your First Amendment rights, you are subject to a three day waiting period. You may only use media types approved by the Government. Discourses conducted through media not sanctioned is a felony.

    etc.

    1. Re:Second Amendment ... by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      The gun issue not withstanding, the Government's attack on the Second Amendment is horrific and sets up really bad precidence for the Fourth Amendment, First Amendment, as well as others.

      FOURTH AMENDMENT Just think: In order to exercise your Fourth Amendment rights against unreasonable search and seizure, the Government needs to perform a background check on you to ensure that you are an upstanding citizen.

      FIRST AMENDMENT

      Thank you for bringing in guns. That always elevates conversation to a higher level.

      Perhaps there should be no background checks for anyone anytime. After all, most of those security clearances are held by honest Patriotic law abiding Americans. And what's the chance that that babysitter or sports coach is a pedophile? Not very high, right?

      You see, if going for a security clearance, or coaching job whenever working for children, you are not required to take a background check. But you won't get the job, and you won't coach. I dealt with this in youth sports. We had fathers who wanted to coach, but refused to take a state police background check. And yeah, I heard all about Big Brother. When there is an instrument that I can legally carry that I can kill people with very easily and efficiently and quickly, I'd sure like to know that the person is stable enough to carry it without deciding to reorganize the place he or she works for.

      Every one of us is in a lot of databases, be it Social Security, Workers Compensation, the IRS, Military/VA, shopping card, and a lot of others for perfectly legitimate reasons.

      But the Extreme Gun movement - I call it that because I am a law abiding gun owner who believes that law abiding is very important part of owning firearms - is advancing very quickly towards anarchism.

      In similar fashion, a lot of us don't care to encrypt our email because there isn't anything in there that needs encryption. Anyone who has any dealings that shouldn't be "out there" should not ever use the internet for that. It is not designed for security purposes, it was designed to be as failproof as possible, to allow communication over broken networks. That means your very private conversations don't just go to one place, they are on a lot of machines except in special circumstances, but the paradign is still true.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    2. Re:Second Amendment ... by pollarda · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You missed my point. The right to keep and bear arms is guaranteed by the Constitution. (Yes, we are on agreement on that, I know.) However, any law which is used to curtail the right to keep and bear arms and is upheld by the courts can be used as a precedent for future courts to rule on similar laws applying to other constitutionally guaranteed rights. So for example laws that require a background check to keep and bear arms (that are upheld by the courts) can be used by later courts as precedent for ruling that background checks can be required to exercise other constitutionally guaranteed rights.

      Sometimes people forget when they think a specific law would be "a good idea" how that will play into the larger legal framework. The courts today are ruled not by original intent (as they were up until the 1920's -- as I recall) but by precedent and laws which infringe on one right can be used to infringe on others. So in the case of firearms, background checks on firearms can be used to create similar laws for background checks elsewhere.

      It is important to keep in mind that what politician say when they create laws is very different than what they do with them. They created RICO laws to combat organized crime -- which sounds great. However, RICO laws are now used for all sorts of crimes intentional and unintentional so that they can "get" whoever they want to "get". Someday, that may be you, me, or someone one of us cares about.

    3. Re:Second Amendment ... by Qzukk · · Score: 3, Interesting

      However, any law which is used to curtail the right to keep and bear arms and is upheld by the courts can be used as a precedent for future courts to rule on similar laws applying to other constitutionally guaranteed rights.

      Which is how we got to where we are now: "free speech zones" became "free gun zones", "I know it when I see it" obscenity became "I know it when I see it" scary-looking-rifles, and "sex offender registries" are heading towards "gun owner registries".

      We're already nearing the bottom of the slippery slope and seem to be picking up speed.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    4. Re:Second Amendment ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Citizen's United for the rich. Permits and Free Speech Zones for the poor.

    5. Re:Second Amendment ... by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      You missed my point. The right to keep and bear arms is guaranteed by the Constitution. (Yes, we are on agreement on that, I know.)

      However, any law which is used to curtail the right to keep and bear arms and is upheld by the courts can be used as a precedent for future courts to rule on similar laws applying to other constitutionally guaranteed rights. So for example laws that require a background check to keep and bear arms (that are upheld by the courts) can be used by later courts as precedent for ruling that background checks can be required to exercise other constitutionally guaranteed rights.

      It's a slippery slope you are speaking of. To me, arms ownership is indeed a right, But it is also a huge responsibility. I see many people who have an almost religious fervor about the right. The responsibility? Not so much.

      So in the case of firearms, background checks on firearms can be used to create similar laws for background checks elsewhere.

      It is important to keep in mind that what politician say when they create laws is very different than what they do with them. They created RICO laws to combat organized crime -- which sounds great. However, RICO laws are now used for all sorts of crimes intentional and unintentional so that they can "get" whoever they want to "get". Someday, that may be you, me, or someone one of us cares about.

      Remember though, background checks are very common already. I thinnk what you might actually be concerned about is an expansion of what is considered a bad sign in a background check. In the instance of background checks for our coaches, it was US Hockey's directive that disqualification was only for people who shouldn't be around children, with sexual abuse or a history of violence including murder. Petty stuff wasn't even considered.

      Now there might be a question whether I should know that stuff, but keeping in mind that I had many millions of liability insurance on me because of the inevitible lawsuits that would result, It darn well did mean I wanted to know what My coaches and others who were around children were doing. And yes, I had the check myself.

      But that was a responsibility of ours. If the same modus of operation were to be placed on the pedophilia problem as for guns, we would avoid checking a person's background, then only do anything about it when the crimes were committed. But it is possible to make a case for the pedophile's privacy. I don't think I care to grant that as a right though.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    6. Re: Second Amendment ... by pollarda · · Score: 0

      I think there is an important distinction. Your background checks were required by a private organization and were in a sense voluntary (since you can join the organization or not). Would you be in favor of mandatory government background checks of all people as a condition of their employment if their job required them to come into contact with children?

    7. Re:Second Amendment ... by Eugriped3z · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Get this straight. There is no attack on your second amendment rights, you thumb sucker. Furthermore, even if there is a national gun registry, as all you paranoid 4F jackasses seem to believe, it wouldn't abridge your right to own a gun anymore than the requirement for a concealed weapons permit. I hear real estate in Idaho is appreciating rapidly. Perhaps you'd better look into to it before the Ruby Ridge Gated Home for Minute Minds is beyond your means.

    8. Re: Second Amendment ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ummm yes? I see no issue with requiring background checks as a basis for working with children. In fact it is something many countries already do. The fact that America thinks children should not be protected is just sad, but then that is hardly suprising given the insane gun laws there as well.

  51. U$A by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So damn happy I don't live on the land of freedom... lmao...

  52. Maybe one, but all?!? by Sir+Holo · · Score: 1

    Will RTFA in a moment, but here's a starter response:

    We all know that an email is as secure a postcard. So, yeah, maybe one or two might be intercepted occasionally. But that does not lead logically to the expectation that someone intentionlly reading all of the thousands of emails I send a year is not a violation of the fourth Amendment (unreasonable search and seizure).

    1. Re:Maybe one, but all?!? by Sir+Holo · · Score: 1

      Without a warrant or similar judge-issued order, that is.

  53. The United Nazi states of america by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The United Nazi states of america, welcomes you for your stay , being surveillanced and hopes you spend all your cash before we call you a terrorist and then ship you home , broke and on a no fly list so your stuck where ever we drop you off.

    i'm going to be banning every american IP henceforth....your finished have a nice day. YOU want to be fuckign nazi's go right the fucking well ahead and don't godwin me you patzies ...that is the truth the USA = NAZI....no wonder its a dmeocrat govt that does it.

  54. Why does this surprise anyone? by endus · · Score: 1

    The government has been wrangling this legislation since (at least) the first iteration of the Patriot Act. There are no 4th amendment protections on electronic communications. None. People need to realize that. Since phone calls all traverse digital networks now, even those are subject to eavesdropping without a warrant.

    The 4th amendment doesn't apply to communications, and barely applies to your personal spaces. This is the world we live in, the world which we have allowed to come about through our own laziness, ignorance, and fear. This should surprise no one.

  55. 1984, George Orwell by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "..imprisonment without trial, the use of war prisoners as slaves, public executions, torture to extract confessions, the use of hostages, and the deportation of whole populations—not only became common again, but were tolerated and even defended by people who considered themselves enlightened and progressive."

  56. Obama should have said: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Most Republicans complain about government then get into office and instead of fixing the problems they fuck shit up then come election time they complain some more about the mess they helped create only to go back and fuck shit up again. Why? Because their friends make a LOT of money this way; plus it sets up their whole campaign and proves their point, because they are rigging the game.

    Tyranny is never lurking just around the corner. When it comes it is slow and gradual with the public's support. Even when it is fast, it usually has public support.

  57. Who cares? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't think the government really cares if you send grandma a puppy ecard for her birthday, send your girlfriend nudie pics, or talk about fantasy football.

    The only people that have to worry about this are people who do bad things. Don't do anything illegal? Then what do you care if the government can read your email?

    Then you have the really big fact, the government doesn't care about you, they don't know who you are and they aren't watching you. They don't pay attention to you unless you do bad stuff. So can they read your emails? Yes. Are they? No they are not. You reading this, you are a nobody and no one cares about you, just like me.

    If you are dumb enough to think you matter to the government then your stupid. They don't have the time, manpower, or money to read every single message all 4 billion of us send every single day.

  58. They don't need a warrent.. by GrBear · · Score: 1

    Why would they need a warrant to access your email? They already have a copy of all your email, they just have to open their copy of it.

    Also.. To those comparing it to snail mail, it's more akin to the amount of privacy when sending a postcard than a letter in an envelope.

  59. Much Webmail Actually Isn't Sent Unencrypted by mentil · · Score: 1

    Much webmail sent today isn't transmitted cleartext... because it's not sent between two mail providers. For example, if you log into Gmail with SSL, and send a mail to another Gmail account, it's not being sent cleartext across the Internet.

    Furthermore, most email users don't know that emails are sent cleartext, particularly if they "see the padlock icon" when logging into the webmail provider, so they may actually expect that emails are sent encrypted, assuming they even know what encryption is. They know they can't read others' emails since they don't know the login credentials, thus conclude that emails are private (if they're unaware of man-in-the-middle attacks or sniffing). So, there's a de-facto expectation of privacy, thanks to ignorance.

    --
    Corruption is convincing someone that the selfless ideal is the same as their selfish ideal.
  60. Re:From a May 6 Commencement address by President by Culture20 · · Score: 1

    " Unfortunately, you've grown up hearing voices that incessantly warn of government as nothing more than some separate, sinister entity that's at the root of all our problems. Some of these same voices also do their best to gum up the works. They'll warn that tyranny always lurking just around the corner. You should reject these voices."

    ie "What I'm planning to do isn't tyranny, it's a simple proctology exam."

    "Because what they suggest is that our brave, and creative, and unique experiment in self-rule is somehow just a sham with which we can't be trusted."

    No, it's a great but fragile thing that we all need to protect from tyrants so that it never ceases to be self-rule. Those barriers that "gum up the works" are a good thing because they help prevent power hungry dill-holes from trampling over everyone else.

  61. It's encrypted, too. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ASCII or Unicode.

    It has to be deciphered by a program to produce plain text.

  62. don't need warrants... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    that's what every dictator in the encyclopedia said. first time somebody says "we don' need no steenkin' badges," you can be sure they should not be saddling up.

  63. Watergate redux? by AnalogDiehard · · Score: 1

    Knowing the liberal left-leaning's penchant for retaliation, what is to stop them from exploiting the warrantless search to spy on election campaign offices...?

    --
    Eternity: will that be smoking, or non-smoking? I Corinthians 6:9-10
  64. Don't store your email on mail servers. by PhantomHarlock · · Score: 1

    This is why I don't leave my mail on servers. It's deleted as it is downloaded to my local client, via old style POP3. Mail stored on my own personal property at home does still require a warrant to retrieve.

    Yes, this means less convenience, I can't access my email archives wherever I go, but it discourages snooping from remote.

    Pick a nice client like thunderbird/mozilla mail and read your mail the classic way - via desktop client. You can even set it to not delete messages on the server for X number of days, so you have your most recent correspondence online, but not the whole pile.

  65. uh, Nixon said it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    sorry, but you are the shitposter. The "edgy stance" was actually a rephrasing of a famous Nixon quote that flew over your head.

    seriously... learn some history before you accuse others of being retarded. if you use your super advanced social skills, you'll find Nixon saying it on YouTube.

  66. How hard is it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How hard is it to understand that today's electronic "papers" enjoy the same 4th amendment protections as yesteryear's physical papers?

  67. Time to impeach obama... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This guy is just shitting all over us. Where is the Justice, from a department created for the purpose of executing it?

  68. SCOTUS and Party Telephone Lines by Etherwalk · · Score: 1

    The bad news is Supreme Court Precedent mostly supports the idea that they can search email without a warrant. There was an old case that says the phone numbers you call on your telephone have to be communicated to the phone company, and therefore you have no reasonable expectation of privacy in them. A reasonable expectation of privacy is required to have the warrant requirement apply.

    The justices in that case grew up in an age when there were party telephone lines were still common--you could literally pick up your phone and you would hear your neighbor's phone conversation. They distinguished between different houses on the same phone line by the number of times the telephone would ring. To a justice who grew up being able to hear a neighbor's phone call, the intrusion would seem small.

    The good news is that some of the newer justices have expressed a possible willingness to revisit some of that old case law; they are concerned about the erosion of privacy and the idea of a mosaic of non-private information perhaps revealing private information. While the justices are generally pro-prosecution (because most of them were prosecutors), they are also nine intelligent people who grasp at least some of the implications for privacy that exist in a data-driven world.

    The other news is that even if email is not protected by the fourth amendment, it can be protected by Congress. Congress, however, tends not to do anything. (I think the most relevant legislation is from the early 80s or 90s--the Stored Communications Act, maybe?)

  69. Re:Anonymous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not sure how this is modded funny. It's true, which makes it nauseating.

  70. With more on the horizon :( by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

    Don't need a warrant, wtf.

    God damn Bush and Cheney! I can't believe they won the last four elections >:-(

    --
    (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  71. This is predictable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There has never been an information source that law enforcement has not stated they have authority to access, without access controls or oversight. The DOJ is practically required to take this stance by their mandate. It's called an appropriate professional bias.

    Groups like the EFF, Anonymous and the media are constituted to oppose this. That too is an appropriate professional bias.

    Eventually, if processes run to a rational conclusion, the DOJ will get access, but with access controls and oversight.

  72. The REAL purpose of the Second Amendment by trout007 · · Score: 1

    The real purpose of the Second Amendment requires you read the whole thing.
    "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
    Then look at this power of Congress
    To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
    To provide and maintain a Navy;

    The whole point is that in order to have a free country you can't have a standing Army. Standing Armies are very dangerous because typically leaders end up using them on their own people. So how do you stay secure without an Army? Have everyone armed like Switzerland. Nobody want to invade a country full of sharpshooter insurgents where everyone has a rifle and there is no command structure to surrender. Also you tend not to get in aggressive wars if your soldiers can just stay home.

    We would be much freer and richer if instead of a standing Army when people turned 18 they were given basic training and a rifle and sent home. The purpose of maintaining a Navy is because it takes a while to build a ship and you can't invade with a Navy.

    --
    I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
  73. Build encryption into Firefox by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The email app should just do the key exchange automatically, likewise a tag in a web page should designate an encrypted block, and the origin on it.

    The BROWSER would then do the same thing, decrypt that block based on the previous key exchange. Webmail providers wouldn't have a choice, the emails would be encrypted end to end by the browser using an early day key exchange.

    So the first time you exchange emails with someone, the emails are unencrypted, and include the public encryption key, the subsequent times are always encrypted with the key.

  74. Leave it to the Republicans to champion freedom. . by JimtownKelly · · Score: 1

    Ironic twist of values in the USA. The former progressives now favor tyranny and the former neocons now champion freedom. Not sure what to make of my once predictable homeland.

    --
    -- Jimtown Kelly
  75. Re:Leave it to the Republicans to champion freedom by iggymanz · · Score: 1

    They Republicans are the party of the Fat Cats, but the Democrats are the other party the Fat Cats can still have in their pockets. The Republicans make noise about freedom now just to sound relevant after the beating they took in 2012.

  76. simple rules by superwiz · · Score: 1

    Your right to throw a punch stops at my nose. If a private business already provides a service, the government should not be providing it (and using tax dollars to compete with a private business). If a government employee can legally obtain information without identifying himself as a government employee, then he shouldn't need a warrant for it.

    --
    Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
  77. Parker for president by gmuslera · · Score: 1

    Vote Peter or else government will keep thinking that with big power only comes big abuse of power.

  78. Gun Clutchers... by Uberbah · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The gun issue not withstanding, the Government's attack on the Second Amendment is horrific

    ...need to get the hell over themselves and come back to reality. What attack on the Second Amendment. The Senate can't even expand background checks FFS.

  79. Unprecendented amount of fascization under Obama by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As subject.
    Just when you think (or thought, under Doubya) you've seen it all, they outdo themselves.
    American fascists.

  80. it's happening...again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    to take a quote out of context: "...blind certainty, a close-mindedness that amounts to an imprisonment so total that the prisoner doesn’t even know he’s locked up." -dfw

    our legislative units pass laws that allow this to happen. they tend not to represent us so much as trails of money. we give power to the government. we need to collectively speak up and say our privacy is our utmost concern. we need to take this power away from these assclowns. they certainly aren't keeping the populace in mind. this shit needs to stop now, lest we forget how locked up we are.

  81. Re:Anonymous by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 1

    Carnivore may have been around for 15 years, but that does not mean that the act of monitoring per se can be carried out without a proper court warrant --- until now

    --
    Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
  82. Nor by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 1

    Steenking badges.

  83. I don't give a Whitfield Diffie, let alone know... by girlinatrainingbra · · Score: 1

    re: can't even pronounce Diffie-Hellman, let alone know what it is.
    .
    I don't give a Whitfield Diffie, let alone know what it is!
    ;>)
    Listen, I'll get back to you in a Diffie with some of that mayonnaise. We call that East Coast Hellman's stuff "Best Foods" out here on the West Coast. That's what all that EastCoast-WestCoast fighting's all about, right?
    .
    That's a possibility for another /. poll: your favorite non-SI units:
    -- Diffie as time
    -- Smoot as length
    -- I don't give a Whitfield Diffie as a curse/swear
    -- pinch as volume
    etc.

  84. subject by Legion303 · · Score: 1

    Whenever a government entity says something blatantly controversial like this, it's a good rule of thumb to dig around and find out what they're trying to steer your attention away from.

  85. Public domain? Mostly, but it achieves nothing. by HagraBiscuit · · Score: 1

    Given the number of servers, gateways, routers, switches any average email gets routed through, it would generally be imprudent to assume that the information contained therein is any more secure than if it were written on a postcard and sent through the mail, with the addition that a copy of the postcard is retained each time it is handled. I can't comment technically on chat messages, but I would assume the same (or similar) to be true. It is illegal for anyone, including government, to open physical mail not addressed to them without judicial oversight, but to read a postcard? I don't think that requires a warrant, does it? It might require some degree of legalisation for the information gleaned to be admissible in a court of law, but even Mr Postman can do the gleaning without getting knuckles rapped. I would imagine that a similar principle applies to emails / chats etc. If I intended to communicate anything I believe could get me in trouble with the authorities, I definitely absolutely positively would NOT do so over email or chat. I imagine that anyone else with even a third of a brain would find other methods too, so governments intercepting emails will likely achieve nothing more than: 1) Creating a hell of a lot more work for already overworked analysts and 2) Seriously pissing off civil liberties groups and the citizenry in general. So, okay Govt.com go ahead and read all of our postcards to each other, see where it gets you. F#ckin' nowhere except closer to a revolution, I'll warrant.

  86. Not a surprise by carys689 · · Score: 1

    This is not a surprise. Simply by putting some information, thoughts or whatever in an email or chat message and sending that to someone else, you lose whatever privacy rights you would've had if you had not shared. In other words, if you want privacy, don't share it. Theoretically, even after the message reaches its destination, a copy of the email or message is likely sitting on a server somewhere and because of that, as far as the DOJ is concerned, it is public information and therefore no warrant is necessary. That's the argument they are using. I think the debate will boil down to what constitutes public information when the data is encoded on a medium that is not the personal property of the sender even if that information is not readily accessible to anyone without expert hacking skills.

  87. DOJ/FBI Redacts Bill of Rights 4th Amendment by stevenddeacon · · Score: 1

    As our individual rights under the U.S. Constitution Bill of Rights continue to be stripped by Federalists our Republic continues to move towards becoming a Police State. The damage that has been done to our Constitution and Bill of Rights beginning with the passage of the National Security Act of 1947 has continued to alienate us from our individual rights with the passages of the subsequent National Security Acts and the enactments of the Patriot Acts. Today American citizens are spied upon by Federal Agencies without due process including the FBI; NSA; DHS; DOD - Defense Intelligence Agency; National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA); National Secuity Council; CIA; Secret Service; Director of National Intelligence - DNI; National Counter-terrorism Center - NCC; BATFE (ATF); ICE; and DEA to name the usual suspects.