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Criminal Complaint Filed Against Facebook After Girl's Death
An anonymous reader writes "A prosecutor has opened an investigation into how Facebook allowed the publication of insults and bullying posts aimed at 14-year-old Carolina Picchio, who took her own life after a gang of boys circulated a video on Facebook of her appearing drunk and disheveled in a bathroom at a party. The Italian Parents Association has filed a criminal complaint against Facebook for allegedly having a role in the instigation of Carolina's suicide. 'This is the first time a parents' group has filed such a complaint against Facebook in Europe,' said Antonio Affinita, the director. 'Italian law forbids minors under 18 signing contracts, yet Facebook is effectively entering into a contract with minors regarding their privacy, without their parents knowing.''
Facebook is an american company
freedom of speech, even speech we dont like is legal
i feel bad for the girl being bullied but i dont blame anyone for their death who kills themselves except for them.
have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
If the girl kills herself, she did it herself.
But since they've IPOed recently I don't think they could turn down my offer of $50/hour to monitor posts!
see subject
Sue the fuckwads who kept posting these videos if you're going to sue anyone.
If you're going to sue Facebook, you might as well sue Al Gore for inventing the Internet.
This from the same country that sued scientists for predicting earthquakes (or not predicting them good enough).
If the parents don't know about the "contract" that their children "sign" and this is a problem, then maybe the parents should be sued?
If that's how Italy wants to play the game, then Facebook should just require that all Italian nationals provide government identification in order to use Facebook. Then they can validate the user's age and ensure that their "contract" is legal.
Stupid and silly, you say? I agree, but how else is Facebook - or any other website - going to ensure that they're able to operate in Italy?
Yes, this may mean that many business simply won't be able to do business in Italy. Oh well. Italy can suffer for its own stupidity I suppose.
that all the kids didnt have pocket sized HD video cameras when I was in school - the shit that went on would have been embarrassing for anyone reliving it later...but now, kids cant make mistakes and learn from them without being taunted fr life with the stupid mistake...
Of corse binge drinking and other crazy stuff that hapens at partys is wrong - hense the term mistake...Mistakes should be learning experiences, not stains that follow you around for life...
How can kids be kids with cameras everywhere?
Facebook isnt guilty here, just like guns don't kill people, its the kids that posted that shit that are to blame here...
No money in suing the abusers... go where the money is.
Fuck nanny states and fuck the fucks who abuse their power.
The Italian Parents Association has filed a criminal complaint against Facebook for allegedly having a role in the instigation of Carolina's suicide. ... 'Italian law forbids minors under 18 signing contracts...'
The biggest lie on the internet is the answer to the question "Are you 18 or older?"
Big deal. Almost every country is the same way. Only a parent's group would be as naive is to attempt this. And only a parent's group would try to shirk responsibility for parenting -- which is what this is really about. Look, if you can't educate your crotch fruit on how to safely use a computer, don't let them use one. Stop asking the damn government to do your job -- in the 50s, we could buy little Jimmy a chemistry kit that included Arsenic in it, or a glass blowing kit that was identical in every way to the tools used by adults, except they were made for children's hands.
In most societies that haven't yet gone full retard thanks to people propping children up as a shield for their own political gain, children start doing adult work as soon as they are physically and mentally capable. Run around in Africa and you'll see 7 year olds tending crops and making dinner. Meanwhile, in the United States, god help you if you forget to include the fork with your teenager's meal... they'll just stare blankly at it, or even complain.
I guess what I'm saying is: It's your parenting that's at fault, not the internet. No, really, it is, and I don't care what bullshit legal argument you care to make. If you have a crappy kid, it's very like to be a sign that you're a crappy parent. Deal with it, and stop ruining everyone else's lives with goverment regulation because you decided to breed but lacked the mental capacity to do any of the work that comes after your 15 seconds of joy.
#fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
I want to give this response a hug and take it to dinner, it's so beautiful.
Italian Prosecutor. Enough said.
By any chance is this the same Italian prosecutor that went after Amanda Knox?
The Italian legal system is a total joke. Facebook can just sit on this, nothing will happen for years.
-- I have a private email server in my basement.
Uhhh... stupid girl shouldnt have gotten drunk in public?
stupid girl shouldnt have let the social ramblings of what were obviously shallow people drive her to suicide?
seems like her parents should be blamed for raising her bad if anyone....
im sorry but as someone who was once suicidal myself, suicide is always the fault of the person who does it....
Am I the only one that finds it hilarious that Americans - home of the most ludicrous legal system, and outrageous legal pursuits on the face of the earth - is calling this Italian group out for being ridiculous in this claim?
This is a new world we're adapting to here. We have a long way to go in learning the dynamics of this social media-dominated age, but ultimately it will likely come down to governance of ethics (which is a good thing in my mind). In this case, I agree that the worst offenders are those that recorded/circulated the videos, or contributed to the events of that night, but is Facebook completely innocent in all of this? Maybe they are. Is Magnum Research innocent of the deaths of people killed with Desert Eagles? Probably. Is a guy making meth innocent of the deaths of people who OD on the drugs he makes? I don't know the legal answer to any of these questions, but I'm guessing a lot of people will die before we adopt a legal system truly based on ethics (it's supposed to be based on ethics in its current form, but clearly, it is not).
Parents should be monitor their kids. I don't think it's facebooks fault, they really have no way of telling if people are using real names & real ages. Let alone verifying any of the info.
I'd like to see the video, because I'm wondering if it was really bad, or if she was suicidal and it was a good enough excuse. I do remember when I was 14 and it seemed like everything evolved around the world i was in, and everything seems like it mattered and was important. Then again, I guess if my less then memorial moments were captured on video, i don't know.
But I think Italy needs to be talking to the parents, not facebook.
Be seeing you...
Granted, I have little experience with the Italian justice system, but have they considered action against, oh I don't know, the people doing the actual bullying?
Nobody should be compelled to censor. The girl did what she did. Others teased her for it. Just as she made the choice to behave in a way that came back to haunt her she amplified her error by deciding to kill herself. She is the one to blame. Other people get embarrassed and teased and do not let themselves get out of control about it. I assume when a person kills themselves that they have confronted their worth.
~280MB MPEG off of exemplified by World's Gay Niiger other members in Long term survival grandstanders, thE From a technical EFNet servers.
Just make sure you can raise the child you two make after the dinner. :)
The real story here is that "Italian Parents Assocation" is a thing.
You can hold down the "B" button for continuous firing.
Once again the internet blurs the boundaries between public/publishing and private. On one hand this is like complaining to the paper company because someone wrote a nasty note using one of their products. On the other hand web sites do control the means of publishing and bear some responsibilities.
Note they are currently simply exploring. From the prosecutor: "This is an open investigation without named suspects, as yet. Facebook itself is not under investigation."
This is undoubtedly singing the same tune that will most likely go on for decades to come but bullying must be brought to a end.
Parenting can only go so far - it's ridiculous to assume that telling your adolescent and hormonal child to be strong in the face of adversary will stop them from killing themselves. This poor girl left a note apologising for not being strong enough.
There's also no chance that one parent will lecture or attempt to teach another a child that bullying is wrong - that's, unfortunately, not their place. Of course, one parent could talk to another but that's only if they know.... which if often not the case.
However, there should be some figure of authority that should be able to do something...
If bullying is witnessed in the playground, a teacher would usually bring it to an end, and (hopefully) punish the bully - lecture them, make them sincerely apologise, etc. Although there's been ridiculous cases where teachers end up lecturing the bullied - that just infuriates me.
So, if this would occur in the schools and playgrounds, why not in the digital realm? It shouldn't be Facebook staff, in this case, but it should be the parents at the least. They really need to look after what their children are doing and what's happening to them. Facebook and other social media sites are just giant playgrounds for kids except there's no teachers around and that's always a recipe for disaster.
Of course, this should be all within reason - don't exactly want parents digitally stalking their kids 24/7 but it's not difficult to just check peoples walls every once in a while...
Anyway, that's enough ranting - hopefully that all makes sense.
The bullies are to be blamed for the death, not facebook. May be facebook with its detailed logs can help us find the passive audience who watched the bullying and did nothing to stop. May be we can teach the passive by standers how they could help assuage the hurt feelings of the bully victim behind the scenes etc. I think the by standers are the real key in solving bullying issue. If we could find a way to make them side with the victim without exposing themselves bullying might eventually get solved
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
Don't be so coy, tell us how you really feel.
If this was your kid and she got bullied so bad she killed herself what would you do? I know I wouldn't be fucking around with lawyers and a lawsuit. I'd have to have some personal satisfaction of some good old fashion revenge.
Take the Red Pill.
As Archer would say : rimshot!
circulated a video on Facebook of her appearing drunk and disheveled in a bathroom at a party. The Italian Parents Association has filed a criminal complaint against Facebook for allegedly having a role in the instigation of Carolina's suicide.
Why just Facebook? Clearly Sony did nothing to prevent the video from being recorded by the handicam they manufactured. For that matter, the architect of the house where the party took place did nothing to prevent the poor girl from being drunk and disheveled in the bathroom he designed.
And if the architect can't be bothered to be responsible in the first place, where was he when she was being harrassed? Where was he when this poor young girl needed someone to talk to, to explain that people can be horrible sometimes, and it doesn't mean she is any less of a person? That she needs to develop the strength in herself to withstand these kinds of attacks, because they are a part of life in a world that is sometimes cruel? Where was the architect when she needed to understand that getting too drunk and making a fool of herself was a dangerous, but ultimately healthy cautionary tale for a young girl, and that she should take it as a learning experience on the risks of underage drinking and those who might take advantage of her? I mean, obviously her parents -- the ones filing the suit -- weren't doing their job, so where was the architect?
Look, parents: If your daughter gets in a situation like this and kills herself, we don't want to have to point out that you are the best chance she had, because that is a horrible reality for you and it does not necessarily mean you caused her death. You may not have done anything wrong -- these horrible tragedies just happen sometimes. But if you are going to pull out the lawyers and start insisting that the blame be placed on someone -- if you are going to corner society, through its legal system, into putting the blame on someone -- you leave us little choice but to point out that the people most responsible for your daughter's ability to cope with the harsh realities of the world are you. If you can't accept that it is not Facebook's fault, how can we not point out that you are vastly more responsible for your daughter's psychological wellbeing than a website?
Stop-Prism.org: Opt Out of Surveillance
what difference does it make if she was allowed to have a facebook account? presumably this video would have been passed around regardless.
Look, if you can't educate your crotch fruit on how to safely use a computer, don't let them use one
I sounds like other people's kids misusing the computer were more of the issue....
If this was your kid and she got bullied so bad she killed herself what would you do?
Firstly, I would have had my kid involved in extracurricular activities, had them assisting in chores and other things, and developed in them a sense of self-reliance and independence. A child that can do things for herself is not a child that can readily have their self-esteem destroyed by a bully. Such self-reliance would include self-defense classes; No girl should fear that a boy will assault her. Secondly, I'd track down the parents of the child bullying and explain the situation to them verbally and in person. If the parents didn't step up to the plate, I would explain to them in a non-verbal way my disappointment in their lack of parenting.
But the one thing I wouldn't do is go off whining to the government or some parenting group about how my child was being bullied and, so enmeshed in my own ineptitude as a parent, allow the situation to worsen to the point my child committed suicide. I mean, really, as a parent how can you not see your child is struggling? You do whatever it takes to protect your family; You, not the government, you. It's called taking responsibility for the situation, and I would parent my child by example by showing that same self-reliant quality in my own involvement in the situation.
But I would not engage in 'revenge'. That is the refuge of a coward; If I'm angry enough to fight someone, they're going to be facing me and they're going to be armed. And then they're going to lose.
#fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
This isn't the United States, asshole, it's in Italy.
If somebody writes a death threat, why not sue the paper companies and pen manufacturers. Sue the postal service if it was mailed. Phone startles your grandmother and gives her a heart attack? Sue. All of these hypothetical cases have as much legs to stand on as their case against FaceBook. I hate FB and don't use it; but in any sane system they should file a simple motion to dismiss this case with prejudice, and the judge should spend about 10 seconds looking that over before signing off on it. I feel sorry for the loss of these parents; but you can't enshrine grief into law. It would lead to too much insanity.
Not to seem cruel but it looks like the original problem was her being drunk in a bathroom at the age of 14. If you don't want a video of you being drunk getting out then don't get drunk in public.
Your website can be accessed by any country in the world, are you going to study every country's laws and comply with them? The lawyer fee alone would make any web venture unthinkable. To define operating by not blocking is stupid beyond belief, by this definition all US websites are operating in North Korea, Iran and China, what do you do when these government asks for your logs, source code and data according to their "laws"?
The anti-bully movement, of which you are apparently a part of, is by far one of the most absurdly hypocritical movements around.
The whole premise of your ideology is that it is wrong to target a specific person, and to then pick on him or her in some way.
Yet what do you folks do? You target those you have labeled as "bullies", and you direct more wrath, hatred and animosity toward them than they could ever possibly direct at any of their so-called "victims".
A lot of the time these alleged "bullies" are merely pointing out factual attributes about the person in question. Yes, some people are nerds, and it is not incorrect to point this fact out. Yes, some people are obviously weak, and it is not incorrect to point this fact out. Yes, some people are stupid, and it is not incorrect to point this fact out.
But rather than accepting that it's perfectly fine and legitimate to make note of reality, the anti-bully squad comes in with their misguided, pent-up anger and starts up with the "treat them like criminals" nonsense. The abuse directed toward "bullies" from the anti-bullying crowd is just so extremely hypocritical.
People who kill themselves are really sick. Almost as sick as blaming their death on others "bullying."
I want to give this response a hug and take it to dinner, it's so beautiful.
And what, I'm mud?
#fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
> If this was your kid and she got bullied so bad she killed herself what would you do?
If I were try to place blame with ANYONE outside of the immediate family, then it would be with the actual "bullies". These are the people engaging in any actual "harassment". Facebook is just a tool. It is a dumb machine that does whatever it's users tell it to do.
You can't really micromanage it without destroying it or much of the rest of the Internet with it.
This isn't just about Facebook but about ANY user created content or ANY website that empowers end users. This kind of witch hunt threatens ANY website that's more than a sad attempt to recreate broadcast from television from the 50s.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Facebook allowed insults to be posted? So basically like anywhere on the internet. If you can't handle insults or being "bullied", you are not cut out to make it in this world.
*sigh*
And here I've already posted in this thread and can't use my points.
I don't know about the laws in Italy (and I am not a lawyer anywhere) but that doesn't really matter as far as I know in the US. Look at the story of Traci Lords. She used fake ID to make porn when she was 16 and there was, at least at the time, no way the other people making it could tell it was fake (it wasn't that hard to do back then). They were still at least charged. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traci_Lords#Porn_career
All charges were dismissed against these men when it was revealed that the US Government had issued Traci Lords a US Passport indicating the false age under the name "Kristi Nussman". The US government had attested that she was above the age of consent at the time the films were made. This is somewhat similar to the Aaron Swartz case, at least in that government misconduct resulted in a crime.
The Traci Lords circus is a bad analogy for the case of the Italian girl, since, given that the girl could not legally enter into the license agreement with FB under Italian law, there was no contract. No contract = no case.
This is a case of grieving parents who are looking for someone to blame for their grief, and an Italian magistrate who is willing to be complicit in attempting to blame FB, nominally on behalf of the grieving parents, but probably with some political motivation. Politics in Italy are largely viewed by the rest of the world to be about grandstanding for publicity, and then riding the resulting wave into office. There have been many articles in US periodicals about this, the most (in)famous one being Ilona Staller's run for, and election to, parliament.
Facebook knows and accepts that minors are just clicking on accept when they sign up for the account, there is no way they can be so naive as to not realize that huge percentage of accounts they have are from kids. They don't even want to restrict access to the kids either because that would hurt their revenue. So they just maintain a fiction that since everyone has read the terms of service that they're absolved.
Firstly, I would have had my kid involved in extracurricular activities, had them assisting in chores and other things, and developed in them a sense of self-reliance and independence. A child that can do things for herself is not a child that can readily have their self-esteem destroyed by a bully.
Of course no child ever raised in such a manner by a self-righteous parent has ever been messed up, at least at some point in their life.
BTW, why do you write "I would have had my kid involved in extracurricular activities" and "I would parent my child" instead of "I did have had my kid involved in extracurricular activities" and "I did parent my child"? You have raised at least one child at least through their teens, right?
If the parents didn't step up to the plate, I would explain to them in a non-verbal way my disappointment in their lack of parenting.
Oh my, aren't we a tough character.
If I'm angry enough to fight someone, they're going to be facing me and they're going to be armed.
Armed? You mean like a duel in a Western? My favorites star Gary Cooper.
If it gets to the point of armed, I say screw the "fair fight" nonsense and just treat it like a war. The only object is to win. Of course I'm obviously not the sort of heroic character you are.
The most pertinent question here I believe is the "Contract" question. EULAs have been ruled on a few occasions in assorted court cases to be agreements, not contracts.
Personally I think this will go nowhere, but IF the Italian courts rule that a EULA it is indeed a contract then EULAs will take on a new legal meaning, at least in Italy, and possibly the rest of the Eurozone (I am not a legal expert, so I don't understand the full ramifications of this, just postulating)
Leg Godt!
Were they employees of Facebook? If not, then leave Facebook out of it.
stop acting like you were the only one, im in the same boat but you know what.. i didnt, and you didnt either..
Apropos of nothing, what makes you think you were bullied to the same level as the original poster?
Was he bullied when he was as old as you were, or could he have been younger when bullied?
Is your support group (family, especially brothers) larger than his, or was he essentially alone? Were both his parents holding down jobs and yours weren't?
Are you dismissing a serious issue because it wasn't as serious in your case? We know that kids snap and do bad things when pushed too far. As do all mammals.
Take the smart approach. Rather than blame the victim, perhaps you should consider advocating changes that address the cause of the problem.
... i have zero tolerance for people who self pity themselves to death and blame others for their misery
Keep evolving, you'll reach "human" eventually...
I guess what I'm saying is: It's your parenting that's at fault, not the internet. No, really, it is, and I don't care what bullshit legal argument you care to make. If you have a crappy kid, it's very like to be a sign that you're a crappy parent. Deal with it, and stop ruining everyone else's lives with goverment regulation because you decided to breed but lacked the mental capacity to do any of the work that comes after your 15 seconds of joy.
What a terribly shallow view to have.
Day of scheduled suicide: February 8th 2013, my birthday
Brocklebank said Noah's school gave her a bullying incident form to fill out, organized meetings between her son and his bullies, and asked the boys that were picking on him to sign contracts pledging to stop.
Still, she said, the harassment continued and she wanted authorities to do more. For example, Brocklebank said, Noah sat alone in the cafeteria for two months and often skipped lunch.
The situation came to a head when Noah, who only recently received his parents' permission to open an Instagram account, uploaded the pictures showing tiny cuts on his arm and a caption with his suicide threat on Jan. 26. He blocked his mother from seeing the post.
While her son was in the hospital on a psych hold,
she had this website created for him: http://lettersfornoah.com/about-noah.html
I realize you're still a girl in training, but sooner or later you're going to have to learn that the world isn't so nearly as black and white as you've made it out to be.
Or maybe you'll write a letter to Noah and explain to him that his depression and isolation is all his parents' fault.
Your choice.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
Of course no child ever raised in such a manner by a self-righteous parent has ever been messed up, at least at some point in their life.
If by "self-righteous" parenting you mean, parenting, then no. Not by the parent, anyway. Nothing in life is a guarantee, but if you're playing the odds, teaching a child to be self-reliant is going to result in a lot less bullying, and incidentally, may keep your 14 year old daughter from getting drunk at a party because you'll have raised her to be less suseptible to peer pressure as well; She'll trust her own judgements, not that of the "cool kids".
BTW, why do you write "I would have had my kid involved in extracurricular activities" and "I would parent my child" instead of "I did have had my kid involved in extracurricular activities" and "I did parent my child"? You have raised at least one child at least through their teens, right?
To answer that question, I'd suggest thinking about the statements you've quoted, rather than just frobbing the keyboard with a snarky comment and thinking it actually does something for you other than broadcast "I'm a giant asshole."
Oh my, aren't we a tough character.
A fair bit more than a troll on some internet forum, yes.
Of course I'm obviously not the sort of heroic character you are.
Obviously. A true hero of the internets would duel with facts, logic, and experience, not ad hominem, circular logic, and hand waves. Alas, you are unarmed.
#fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
But I see some sense in this. The way I see it is Facebook has made billions, and more than one billionaire. With that comes certain responsibilities. Just like a bartender that keeps serving drinks. Facebook knows that it is used for bullying, pedo, and other nefarious things. And they turn as much of an eye on it as they can get away with to save face so they can maximize a profit. That is reality. The fact is people have been bullied, killed themselves, or been killed to an extent in some part thanks to Facebook. What can be done? I don't know, maybe nothing. But I do believe Facebook does very little because they are afraid it would hurt overall revenues. And that I take issue with when dealing with people under the age of 18. I'm not one of those 'think of the children people', but I'm also not one who believes profits trump all else.
Almost as sick as blaming their death on others "bullying."
Whatever happened to holding people accountable for their actions?
Not to seem cruel but it looks like the original problem was her being drunk in a bathroom at the age of 14.
Cruel? No. Ridiculously blaming the victim? Yes.
If you've never done anything stupid and embarrassing in front of someone else, then you've obviously lived a completely solitary life in a cave.
What you are missing - entirely - is that people other than your children could bully your child online. The real question is - ought websites be responsible for the content provided by their users when that content harms children.
If this was your kid and she got bullied so bad she killed herself what would you do?
I might turn myself into the authorities for negligent homicide on the grounds that I raised my child so badly that they killed themselves over what are quite clearly self-esteem issues.
"His name was James Damore."
I saw "parent's group" and lost it. Any decent parent wouldn't allow their kid to go to a party and get wasted. Seems parenting is dead in Europe, too.
To answer that question
But you didn't answer that simple straightforward and completely reasonable question. You evaded it. Anybody who had raised at least one kid through their teen years, especially someone as self-righteous as you, would say "yes I have" and "yes I did raise my kid that way and they turned out great because of it". Ergo you haven't, and ergo your comments are a bombastic joke.
P.S. You should really learn to limit your profanity, as it would set a bad example for any poor child you might have in the future.
Only a parent's group would be as naive is to attempt this.
Dear God, won't somebody think of the parent's group?!
Half-way seriously, consider their situation. The bullies are kids, too, so we can't blame the kids. We're a parent's group--what're we going to do, blame ourselves? I don't think so. Besides, some parent has just lost their child. They're victims and we can't blame the victims!
Let's see...who's an adult around that we can blame? AH! Facebook! Large nameless faceless corporation who is run by adults and should have known better because it is all of our responsibilities to protect our children. Yeah! It's their fault!
With all due respect, you sound like someone who has no plans for having real children of your own in the near future.
I think you severely underestimate the power/damage that intense bullying can do.
Look, even fully grown up adults are going nuts when faced with constant negative attention (ask anyone who suddenly becomes the center of a media story)...
All the things you wrote might help, but it is not as bullet proof as you make it sound; there is still a risk.
Did you consider that possibly out of this could come better mechanisms in facebook to help kids face bullying and help parents deal with bullying on facebook? Suing large companies is pretty much the only way to get them to pay attention to a problem there days. Do you not think online social medias plays role and has increased the number of suicide in teens due to bullying?
Anyway, you are a bit too sure of your arguments here. As another poster hinted, I'd be willing to bet you have no kids: if you did you'd realize things are a lot less certain than you make it sound, sadly. I applaud your intentions regarding your (future) kids, and I hope you follow through, but I would also recommend you stay aware that there is no silver bullet.
I might turn myself into the authorities for negligent homicide on the grounds that I raised my child so badly that they killed themselves over what are quite clearly self-esteem issues.
Another one. You have raised at least one child through their teen years, right?
I've heard this argument before. What content is actually "harmful"? At what point does the nudity stop being National Geographic and start becoming Penthouse? It's the age old question of "what is pornography?" and it's response: "Whatever turns the judge on". You can't define what's "harmful", because it's different for every damned kid. Some kids know and understand sarcasm and some don't (gee, just like adults!) Some kids don't like abusive humor and other kids thrive on it (again, just like adults! It's amazing how this is lining up...) Some kids take external factors personally, while some kids don't (holy shit, three in a row!). PEOPLE are all different, and you can't ever legislate enough to account for the fringes of the bell curve...not without completely eliminating the fundamental human component.
who contracted to get a minor drunk?
were the parents the one's who contracted with her to get a computer so she could get on the internet and facebook?
Welcome to Slashdot, where we let babies stick knives in toasters, let children play with blenders and let pitbulls roam unmuzzled around school platgrounds.
Major 'Uh Oh' !
[NASA Huston Control] Obviously A Major Malfunction."
I agree with a lot of the sentiments you're expressing, and your post is fairly eloquent and articulate. The only minor and unfortunate gripe I have is that it has almost nothing to do with the particular topic being discussed.
Not using it is the solution.
It's not complicated, it costs nothing, and your life will not
be negatively impacted in any way.
I am an employer of several hundred people, and one of the questions
asked of potential new hires is whether they use Facebook or not.
If they answer yes, we find some reason they are not suited to the job,
and they don't get hired. This is because I like to hire smart independent minded
people, not sheep.
A couple of dumb questions.
Firstly what is the legal drinking age in Italy? I assume it's not 14.
Based on the comment "Italian law forbids minors under 18 signing contracts", I assume that means that legally they are not considered competent, hence in the care of a non-minor who is responsible for them - correct?
So why isn't the law case against the parents/guardians?
Not trying to start a flame war, just curious (and a bit cynical because I come up with the answer that Facebook has more money than the parents. Just hope I wrong).
My $0.02 worth
But you didn't answer that simple straightforward and completely reasonable question. You evaded it. Anybody who had raised at least one kid through their teen years, especially someone as self-righteous as you, would say "yes I have" and "yes I did raise my kid that way and they turned out great because of it". Ergo you haven't, and ergo your comments are a bombastic joke.
You're attacking the messenger, not the message. Whether or not I'm a parent has absolutely dick to do with whether or not my statements are correct. You may think it matters. Many people think it matters. But it doesn't; The truth is the truth, irrespective of who says it. And that, sir, is why the ad hominem is a logical fallacy, and why I didn't see a need to dignify yours with a direct response so you could sound your trumpet and say "See! See! This one isn't a parent yet, so we can safely ignore everything she said!"
You haven't attacked a single point I've made, nor even disagreed with it. All you're doing is hand waves and personal attacks... and the fact that even one person modded you up suggests that critical thinking skills here on Slashdot continue to fall precipitously and are being rapidly supplanted by feel-good but empty irrational discourse.
Speaking of critical thinking skills; here's some extra support for what I've been saying (and you haven't);
Zero tolerance policies are ineffective, most bullying isn't online but in real life, and bullying online often follows from the same, that the primary risk factor for bullying is being socially marginalized, and the correlation between bullying and suicide is tenuous at best. Source
Zero tolerance policies were demanded by parents who wanted to address the symptom (bullying), not the problem (their child). Bullying can be greatly managed by teach the child to defend his/herself, something that teachers, administrators, and legislators are loathe to admit, but every psychologist will tell you is important. Confronting your attacker is therapudic, even after the fact -- it's where the phrase "getting your day in court" comes from. Anti-bullying strategies must be taught by the parents; For both political and social reasons, it cannot be done by the government. As far as being socially marginalized; While a parent cannot entirely prevent this, they can lend emotional support. As any member of the LGBT community will tell you, parental support makes dealing with coming out and social marginalization, isolation, etc., a great deal easier. Every advocacy group, every psychologist, every support group will tell you this. Parental involvement is the salve to the wound of bullying, not government intervention. It's supported in study after study that parental involvement and influence has an enormous bearing on a child's emotional and mental state. And speaking of that, the lack of correlation between suicide and bullying? That points to these teens already having significant mental illness. Well, where were the parents? It's not like depression isn't treatable.
#fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
Something which is sadly too lacking in today's world. It seems all too often that people today are too ready to push all blame and responsibility on others, instead of looking to fix their problems starting with themselves.
Facebook commits many evils, but killing Carolina Picchio is not one of them. I would instead point the finger at the boys who made the post, their parents who brought them up, their teachers who failed to teach them bullying is despicable, the community they live in which allowed the bullying to carry on.
Blaming Facebook is blaming a tool for the faults of its user. So should we ban cars because they cause car accidents? Knives because they have been used to murder others?
Take responsibility for your own faults.
FB's first response will be to cull all accounts of people younger than 18 years with Italian IPs. Then when people point out that 17 yo kids can lie about their age, FB will just ban all Italian IPs.
Safer than being sued.
Well, aren't we so perfect. And, your ideas live in a perfect world. Keep telling yourself how perfect you are and you will never experience any trouble.
I'm surprised they aren't suing the camera it was recorded with.
hahahaha well said
GIT is a twat of the highest order...and a blowhard
again, well said
While it is an embarassment, a person who is ready to end it all over such an embarassment has much bigger problems. People have endured sexual abuse, rape, and other awful insults without ending their lives. Some times thay have emotional scars, but many of us do.
This will probably involve more embarassment and pain to the family, as this probably disturbed young lady has her past dissected publicly.
Because if we adopt an idea of X happens,(facebook posting) and person kills themselves, then Facebook must be punished, then it becomes silly season, when something like a student accidentally farting in class might be posted, and declared to be the cause of the student's consequent suicide.
All of this is to say, perhaps the school system, the expectations, and the mental health aspects are more to be investigated than some silly adolescent activities on Facebook. Do those things foster an expectation of perfection? A sort of one strike and you're out world, which coupled with a teenager's normal adolescent anxieties, makes some people feel boxed in and feel as if they cannot ever fail? That any transgression or embarassment is deserving of the death penalty?
Nahhh, let's blame FaceBook. It's easier, and doesn't conflict with our "Isn't there some way this can be your fault?" outlook on life.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
What a terribly shallow view to have.
Day of scheduled suicide: February 8th 2013, my birthday
Yes, let's just throw in some emotions to obfusciate the real question: Is filing a criminal complaint against Facebook the right reaction? The parents claim it is because they failed to prevent "cyberbullying". Unfortunately, there is absolutely no evidence to support a link between suicide and bullying. As it so happens, suicide is the result of mental illness, and the DSM-V doesn't have anything listed for "recipient of mean words". Because it's a mental illness that's the cause here, specifically untreated depression, I'm going to have to turn that finger right back around at the parents. Well, what did you do when you noticed your daughter was depressed?
While her son was in the hospital on a psych hold,
she had this website created for him: http://lettersfornoah.com/about-noah.html
Awwww, a completely unrelated but tragic tale to distract us from objectively thinking about this and instead give in to irrational emotional impulses. I'll stick with the scientific method, kthxbai.
I realize you're still a girl in training, but sooner or later you're going to have to learn that the world isn't so nearly as black and white as you've made it out to be.
An ad hominem attack. Stay classy, 'Tubesteak'. (-_-) With a nickname like that, you're hardly one to diss someone else's choice.
Or maybe you'll write a letter to Noah and explain to him that his depression and isolation is all his parents' fault.
To a significant degree... it is. It has a strong genetic correlation; it runs in families. But let's ignore the science for a minute, that seems to be more in character with the NuSlash(tm) residents like yourself that have been filling this place up since it sold out to Dice...
#fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
Ah yes, "slashdot parents". Nerds with no real life experience, used to action-reaction thinking. All very logical. Very mathematical. 2+2 is always 4.
They just don't understand that all their cold logic is no good when dealing with other people. There are two kinds of people where that reasoning doesn't fly: teenagers and females. And combined, they're your worst nightmare.
...is when the hell did teasing all of a sudden now become considered "bullying"? Are today's youth that weak and thin skinned? no wonder the muslims are winning
How the fuck can a social website be held responsible for what people share, especially in another country?
I've got better things to do tonight than die.
Says the person without kids. Children get taunted for size, shape, gender, intelligence, or the lack thereof. But being raised by an adult this clueless practically *guarantees* endless teasing.
According to what you tell me, german, english, nigerian, chinese, russian, polish, australian, mexican and all the other countries' companies do not have to adhere to US law.
I have an awesome idea, then: They mirror companies the US has and then simply go there and shoot everyone in the US company and take over the then free business. Ah, no, wait. That means they all can do that here as well, no?
Your claim is outright ridiculous, as I have shown with my example: If you are active in a country and do business there (which FB clearly does in Italy) you are bound by the laws of the country. It is actually very simple.
Armed? You mean like a duel in a Western?
He's thinking of a type of western, yeah. But with spaceships and Nathan Fillion.
I'm just going to say it: If you kill yourself before you procreate, that is a good thing. Keeps such self destructive genes out of the pool. I've battled with self destructive thoughts, and went though some truly heinous shit as a kid to get to that point. Yet, I survived. I've been beaten as a minority (the only caucasoid in an otherwise all black boot-camp disguised as a rehab run by Quanell X (the leader of the new Black Panther Party in H-town), who was sneaked the other kids out at night to a recording studio where the stars were installed in their eyes and their hearts were filled with hateful militant islamic views. The late night meetings were about, "Hating them crackers, as usual". You can't imagine the level of harassment.
Was the poor girl mocked? So was I. Was she beaten? No? I was. Was she raped? I have been, yet I still survived. If your mind is that weak, then good riddance. The world is better off without your genetic contributions. We've got humans to spare. May the most fit to survive do so.
What part did Facebook play in this girl offing herself? Well, what part did my parents play in the abuse I received at the hands of others? NONE. Deal with it. It was my choice not to be so stupid as to end my life. No force in this universe can cause you to take your own life. That is the one thing you can only blame yourself for. Her parents should blame her, and failing that, themselves, for their flawed parenting skills and bad genes. Certainly not a Internet Service.
I mean, fuck Facebook, but to file criminal charges based on some dumb hairless apes teasing each other with a fucking video? Get bent.
Involved in extracurricular activities? Check. Sports, Boy Scouts, job, and other clubs
Had chores? Check.
Self-reliant and independent (aka no friends and didn't know how to talk with people). Check.
Martial arts? Check.
Hated life since elementary school and attempted suicide after a few years in college? Check.
Your peers constantly calling you a freak (stupid sunken chest birth defect and slight eye misalignment) when you're young can be very damaging. You miss out on a lot of early social interactions and it gets harder and harder to catch up when as you get older. My parents finding out and trying to force more social interaction would have made me feel even worse.
almost every kid gets drunk somewhere in that age range (-2,+6).
If they're seriously claiming people under 18 years of age can not sign up to internet services or the service hosting company is legally liable, they're leading towards banning any people from using online services from that country. Age verification - how, scan and send in a driver's license/ID? Seriously? Is that even sufficient proof? How else would a company escape liability for offering an online service that may be abused in some way. It seems like this "parent's association" is not only overreaching in terms of who is responsible, but really - facebook? Are they the internet police? If something violates their terms, they remove it - if they are refusing to remove content that is either illegal or in violation of their terms..then they may be a target for legal action. I don't think this is the case here.
Those, and the consequent self obsessed holding up a personal image of a good person were the ones that killed her. Facebook deserves sanctions for the contract mess, although I suspect the consequences could prevent Facebook from providing services for non-credit card holders in Italy and perhaps in the whole EU area.
This really sound more as parents fail than anyone others. Especially Facebook. Parents should teach their kids to come to them when something like this happens. And if it happens then help them resolve the problem.
The fact that bullying messages are posted on social netwrok sites can be used as easy evidence against bullies. Just remember how it was before all the electronic stuff wass available. The bullies met you somewhere and threatened you. And you had nothing to prove that he was threatening you. Nowadays you just pulls out message from your phone, e-mail, or whatever way was used and goes after bully. The problem is how it will be handled. Usually reporting bullies will backfire at you. So you should be prepared for that.
Just one question. How did 14 year old get drunk in the first place?
DSM-V doesn't have anything listed for "recipient of mean words"
That's quite surprising, considering the amount of fluff included in the latest version. Don't worry though, chances of something like that being included in a future revision are quite high. (snark is good against depression - see what i did here? regardless, please do keep in mind that it's not polite to bring DSM-V into a serious conversation. if it really must be done, use an earlier version)
It's not easy. Nothing in life ever is. But it's worth it... and you have something I didn't -- a mother that cares. Lean on her until you can stand up straight again. [*] You're a survivor. You can do this.
(* Skipping irrelevant bits)
Hmm. I would be quite tempted to hit you with some more snark for this part, but that would be ill played considering the rest of that paragraph. Still, you might want to consider your own earlier words:
People will tell you that you have to try harder, or just "will" yourself to be happy. You and I both know that's stupid
so simply saying You're a survivor. You can do this. is ... well, you get the idea. Any depressive that's not on medication will ask you a simple question: why? and demolish that argument. If you truly want to write that kind of letter and not just bandy words on /. consider the problem of choice - the lack of it, specifically. Depressives often enough have one way of coping with a situation, and it's a way that is (shall we say) inadequate; hence, the lack of alternatives is a big part of the problem. And depression is not exactly the most find-other-ways-enabling state of mind. I would humbly suggest, as an alternative approach, showing (not talking about) alternatives, even for minor things. To paraphrase a dead French pilot who wrote about little princes, I can describe for you the view from a mountaintop and you'll never have an image for it if you never saw it, but if I bring you there, you'll see it and you'll have your own image. The best thing imho that one can do for a depressive is enable choices. And if, given several choices, suicide still follows, then maybe a life had to come to its end, and these things can happen if you place any value on freedom of choice. But sadly it sounds as if this boy had none.
Ah, and one more thing. I would submit that it's not exactly the brain trying to kill anyone here. Brain cells and their activity suffer quite a bit in a depressive, and I'd count the brain as a victim as well. But that's just a personal opinion.
I'm just glad I'm not a kid today.
Back in the day, we did all sorts of really stupid stuff. A lot of it dangerous, some of it illegal (even back then). What we didn't have was video and photos of us doing it. We had plausible deniability and the imperfect memory of the few people who knew. We didn't get killed, permanently injured, or arrested (for the most part). A few bullies, physically present, are easy to ignore. A few witnesses easily forget. A million????
We could leave it behind, as childish things should be.
We got to cruise through school, half-assing our way to the top of a class, and easing into super high paying tech jobs in a completely non-competitive global market. We founded companies and made millions. We lived in a world where terrorists were limited in scope and reach. Where governments did not have access to every little thing you did. Where kids were not constantly bombarded by mass-media geared for adults
Today's kids have it hard. Way harder than kids did, even 10 years ago. And a lot of what makes it hard to be a kid or a parent today is stuff WE DID in a world WE MADE.
We have much to be sorry for. Let's not add "lack of empathy" to it.
Big businesses on the internet have to make sure they're not giving money to a criminal, enabling hate crime, empowering music/movie piracy, spreading computer cracking lessons, spreading bomb-making recipes, distributing kiddie porn, inciting murder and other felonies, inciting slave-trading. No-one is allowed to say kiddie porn isn't their problem, they're just the messenger. In these cases they can pass the problem onto the police.
Although big businesses around the world demand the right to ban arbitrary 'criminals' from an online life, no business wants to do the same to children who are even more abusive. Because copying SpongeBob SquarePants 'costs' someone money but schoolgirls channel-posting "slut" to each other is free. Someone has to be responsible for children when they are at school, other than the parents. Similarly, someone should be held accountable when children are on a FaceBook page. This is more than bad behaviour from self-righteous schoolgirls. It's adults failing to enforce the rules.
Yes, FaceBook has a responsibility to its 'customers' but the parents association should start with the most obvious culprit: The daughters of other parents.
And please note that the "parents' association" MOIGE is a nutjob organisation of Catholic fundamentalists, in the same basket as the Westboro Baptist Church. They are doing this only to acquire visibility in the bigot arena.
Victims of 9/11: <3000. Traffic in the US: >30,000/y
Has facebook any business presence in Italy ? Yes. Well tough luck now facebook has to respect italian law, or forfeit any future benefit of the Italian market. And frankly they should forfeit past benefit too if they did not want to respect the law of the country they were doing business in.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
Hello Walker Texas Ranger!
You had me until "armed". If you're stupid enough to go against armed people, then you don't really know what you're talking about.
Firstly, I would have had my kid involved in extracurricular activities, had them assisting in chores and other things, and developed in them a sense of self-reliance and independence.
I did plenty of chores and sport and it never solved any bullying problems for me.
Such self-reliance would include self-defense classes; No girl should fear that a boy will assault her.
Given opponents of equal fighting skill the larger will tend to win. Not always but it's the way to bet. Being trained to fight to a higher level than your potential opponents is a good way for an individual to overcome bullying but on a larger scale won't solve bullying but can change who the bullies are. There is also a lot of bullying that isn't physical. How do you use self defense classes to combat embarrassing pictures on facebook?
Secondly, I'd track down the parents of the child bullying and explain the situation to them verbally and in person. If the parents didn't step up to the plate, I would explain to them in a non-verbal way my disappointment in their lack of parenting.
<snip>
If I'm angry enough to fight someone, they're going to be facing me and they're going to be armed. And then they're going to lose.
So you'll talk to the parents and if they don't respond to your satisfaction you'll fight them to the death? Unless I've misunderstood, I think you need to revise this plan. If you win, it ends with you in prison and bullies doing whatever they like to your child while you are occupied with much tougher bullies.
http://marriedmansexlife.com/
I'd been reading it as "patents". I thought this was another story about that everyday, routine kind of litigation. Been a long day...
As the owner of the posts, Facebook should be held liable for them.
Does Italy have laws about entering into a contract falsely?
If you have to be over 18, why did the 14 year old even have an account. She LIED in her "contract" with Facebook.
Maybe Facebook should sue the parents for aiding and abetting fraud...
He attacked your point that it is possible for the parent to be responsible for everything.
In your first post you didn't provide any reasoning for this opinion. It was just your opinion that parents are responsible. It isn't possible to attack an opinion like that with any real argument. Besides, now you are digging up "zero tolerance" as a straw man alternative to "parents are responsible for everything". I bet it must feel good beating that straw man while giving a lecture on logical fallacies.
LOL. Girl... quit it. You were schooled big time. That's a keeper post!
how Facebook allowed the publication of insults and bullying posts So Facebook should moderate everything that gets through? It's their fault that they allowed a video to remain there? Italian law forbids minors under 18 signing contracts But she *faked* her age! She entered a contract that she shouldn't have entered in the first place. So how on earth is Facebook responsible for this incident?
The world TODAY.
IT'S bad too be drunk .. but if someone shows you being drunk ... they are guilty of how bad you feel.
Everyone (including me) that EDUCATED you to feel bad ain't guilty.
Ain't the world a beautiful lovely place.
I would like this school of thought applied to criminal cases.
It's illegal to _____ but whoever (prosecutor , judge , witness , surveillance camera owner, everyone ) makes you feel bad or kill yourself is a criminal.
I'm 68 years old. When I was a school kid the teachers approved of bullying in soem circumstances. If we had a kid that disrupted a class we were encouraged to get them out of view and knock sense into them. If a boy had offered a girl pot back in the day we would have beaten him half to death. And if we had a real bully who picked on people just to be mean we had cliques that would solve that bully really quickly. It worked rather well. The big difference is that it was a segregated system where one narrow set of values were accepted. These days we have such cultural mixing that boundery lines of behavior are foggy and incidents tend to be defined over which tribe a person comes from. School admistrations often side whichever race is dominant in the school. It is very difficult to mix youth who are entering their teenage years and not fully equipped to deal with rules and regulations while their brains and bodies are rapidly changing.
You should read some books on child psychology, you will get a bit of a shock.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Another one. You have raised at least one child through their teen years, right?
I take it from your comment that you have. What, apart from your ego makes you believe that you did a remotely good job of it?
Merely having done something once does not act as any guarantee that you (a) did a good job of it or (b) are now an expert in it.
Nevertheless I have not encountered a group so self-righteous as other parents.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
The phone company also does not make money ads by broadcasting said crap to everyone in the world.
Analogy shot down!
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Facebook has always maintained that children should be above a certain age.
Questions I would ask:
How old was she when she created her account?
If under the age limit, did she lie about her age?
Did her parents know she had an account?
If so, why the F... were they not monitoring her account and her on-line activities?
If not, why the F... were they not monitoring her on-line activities?
I find it so disconcerting how many parents expect the rest of the world to parent their children and when someone else does, the parents cry foul.
Ladies and gentlemen, if you're gonna have some fun and make some babies, remember YOU (mommy and daddy) are responsible for them until they are 18. That means that the actions they take reflect on how YOU reared them.
If you don't maintain control, you can't expect other to take the blame for not controlling what YOU yourselves could not (or would not) control. /endrant
Life takes interesting turns, but the most interest is when you're off the beaten path.
and I would parent my child by example by showing that same self-reliant quality in my own involvement in the situation
Don't make it too easy for the bullies. Not only she's a drunk, she's a wacko like her mother. They had to call the police you know. I nearly felt sympathy for her.
I did plenty of chores and sport and it never solved any bullying problems for me.
You're alive to post about it, so perhaps it solved the "I got bullied so I must kill myself" problem.
Perhaps you think you're being clever by asking this question over and over, but really, I can assure you that you're not.
If you feel disconnected from people who haven't raised teenagers, why don't you go to a forum where the people have raised teenagers? A quick google search reveals: http://www.medhelp.org/forums/Parenting-Teens-12-17/show/183
How is this modded interesting? This is one of the most ignorant posts and probably because you never raised a child and weren't bullied as a child.
I was bullied to the point I was within seconds of trying to commit suicide if not for a friend who stumbled into my room on a trip and helped me, continuing throughout HS.
I kept it from my parents. I smiled, i put on the brave face. I was involved in sports all 3 seasons except summer. I had weekly chores. I had a job. I was self reliant. But my parents had no clue until I told them about my struggles when I was in my 20's.
But harrassment can break any 13/14/15/16 year old, and it doesn't take long at that age.
So how are you going to do anything if you dont' know about it. My parents encouraged me to come to them about everything. I did about many things, but for some reason with the harrassement I couldn't.
So it doesn't always work out the way you have it typed out in this post. I know nowadays' bullying is a big thing in schools. I have 2 kids in elem, there are bullying teaching moments, bullying posters. It's a much more consious thing now then it was when i was in shcool. I know the school knew about 2 instances and never informed my parents or did anything at the time. I can't see that happening now adays. And I'm grateful for that. I hope no kid has to go through what I did.
Nevertheless I have not encountered a group so self-righteous as other parents.
Oh, I think slashdot political pundits have parents beat.
Applying GP's logic: how many slashdotters (on yro or elsewhere) who complain about government have ever ran a country? How many people have been a politician, or a lobbyist, or a lawyer, or a banker, etc?
If it's not cruel to blame the victim then what's wrong with it?
You took GP's statement and widened it significantly -- from the specific "drunk in a bathroom at the age of 14" to the general "anything stupid and embarrassing in front of someone else."
You're missing the crucial point -- for this particular girl, being drunk in a bathroom at age 14 was embarrassing enough to make her kill herself.
If something is embarrassing enough that if it got out, you would kill yourself, then don't do it in front of others. Really simple.
If they had posted posters of her on the school building, would they file a lawsuit against the architect that designed the building? O.o
"DSM-V doesn't have anything listed for "recipient of mean words"
That's quite surprising, considering the amount of fluff included in the latest version. Don't worry though, chances of something like that being included in a future revision are quite high. (snark is good against depression - see what i did here? regardless, please do keep in mind that it's not polite to bring DSM-V into a serious conversation. if it really must be done, use an earlier version)"
thats because it would be listed under "trigger events" for such things as PTSD
BTW does somebody have a downloadable copy of the DSM5 posted somewhere??
Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
So, let me get this straight.
1) You're incapable of seeing the difference between someone telling a depressed person to "just 'will' yourself to be happy", and telling a depressed person that they can survive it.
2) You think that "You're a survivor. You can do this." is the sum-total of the argument, and the simple question "Why?" will "demolish" it.
And yet you think you know enough to contribute meaningfully to the discussion. Your own arguments demonstrate that to be false.
What is a 14yr old doing drunk at a party in the first place? Where were the parents to protect their child not just from drinking, but from online abuse? What in the hell were they thinking? If this crap happened to my daughter she would be grounded until she got retirement benefits and I wouldn't allow her near a computer for almost as long. If my kid was fucked up and being bullied, suicidal, drinking, I would send them to therapy as well.
But you just dont get it do you?
Fuck Facebook.
I agree with the main idea you are trying to convey. I just wanted to point out one thing I have learned since having a child (still young). It is not wise to judge other parents and their methods. It also does not help to think you would never do that. I do agree that many parents are complete and lazy ass's that don't know what the hell they are doing and they don't even seem to care. But I have found myself in situations that I thought would go one way but don't work out that way. The kids do have their own personality and your plans only go so far. The most recent was using bribery to get my daughter to use the toilet. Before that I would have scoffed at bribery as being lazy and likely to lead to problems later on such as spoiled children and temper tantrums. In this case it was the motivation she needed to learn to use the toilet consistently. Now she uses the toilet 100% and does not ask for the potty presents any more. There are other similar examples that have taught me this wisdom.
There are many situations where I see an unruly child and think the parent sucks and that won't happen to me. And even though my child is very well behaved I stop and remember that I don't know the whole situation and I very well could find myself in that very position some day.
All that being said, I still think it is ridiculous to blame others for your own failings and to run to the law and courts for things you should be taking responsibility for. So I guess I think this parent sucks. And even if I stop to remember that I could find myself in their situation I still don't think I would react in the same way they are.
-- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
I have raised 3 and I can attest that there are no bad kids just bad parents. I can also attest that proper parenting and addressing the child's emotions instead of catering to them makes a great difference. My wife who works with challenged children can also prove that a properly raised and supported child reacts differently when shown properly by an adult, unfortunately the number of adults who care enough about their children to teach them how to behave in society is diminishing.
Oh, and you don't have to have a child in order to prove that you are capable of raising children. Personally I don't care how you raise your children but my choice is to raise mine so they know what to do in certain situations. Just a note; my children never visited a house or attended a party where me or my spouse did not meet the parents first and evaluate for ourselves the situation. That is not because we did not trust our child it is because the maturity was not there to say NO to pier pressure.
Not the only reason I'm posting anonymously is because I do not trust this system that I am on.
I think by the wya, you are assuming a fair fight. In most fights, it's the first person to land a hit that wins, because one hit generally turns into 10, and then it's lights out no matter how good of a fighter you think you are (and I've done a reasonable amount of full contact fighting which taught me to get the first heavy hit in).
It's highly unlikely any training will help you if it's a fight. It will only , and in a limited sense, help you if you have a drunken fool throwing himself on a sober girl. The rest is a crap shoot.
Carolina Picchio, who took her own life after a gang of boys circulated a video on Facebook of her appearing drunk and disheveled in a bathroom at a party.
All of these comments are about bullying and parenting in general, but go ahead and google her. She was fucking unbelievably hot... just sayin...
Sorry. Anyone who seriously proposes a solution to a parenting problem as an armed dual is deserving of all the ridicule coming to them.
Fuck you and your inability to stop bragging about your amazing and unique ability to have kids.
We get it. The condom broke. Congratulations on being too chicken shit to get an abortion.
Slashdot hereby pronounces you to be the sole authority on parenting.
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
yes, but having never done something at all, when it is inherently a experiential endeavor that is as unique as individuals are, means you basically have no standing to speak about the actual complexities involved, though possibly by brandishing enough in the way of psychological studies you have done could rectify this.
By the way, I'm not saying I have raised a child through their teens, but I'm absolutely certain until I've done it 3 or 4 times, preferably with kids of different genetic and socio-economic backgrounds, I can't really say I know enough to pass judgement on someone else or offer critiques. I can critique the actions of any one person (so for example, these bullys are asshats, that is pretty straight forward) but who knows what complexities these parents were dealing with.
What we can say though, is that as long as we feel the government has some role in protecting the disadvantaged (and in most countries, this includes the mentally unstable who would commit suicide) it is at least conceivable a country could decide this falls in the realm of government intervention.
spoken like a non-parent. I _am_ a parent and my child _was_ bullied... My child has plenty of self esteem, probably too much self-reliance (he can weld, drive stick, build a tree fort with power tools, and hack python), and as much independence as an 11 year old should have. The bully's parents would not admit their child was a bully, the school suggested we put our son in Hockey; the bully's dad had a black eye when we spoke to them about his child's bullying... We moved schools, which is a drastic step. Was the original school to blame? Absolutely. There was a problem, we brought it to their attention, and they told us they were powerless unless there was a physical injury and a police report. The most they would do was keep the bully away from my child but in order to make it "fair", they instructed my son to stay away from the bully as well. The side effect of this was the bully began hanging around with my son's friends effectively ostracizing my son.
Until you manage to raise a child yourself, you should probably keep shut ...
For a good time call Betty 555-1212
Can Betty sue the bathroom wall this is written on?
Can she sue the school where the bathroom is located?
Can she sue Sharpie for creating the pen it was written with?
assuming you're a guy, read the response creator's nick, it's not what it is just because it sounds edgy. Just be aware that the two of you ain't going to be making crotch fruit together.
Zero tolerance policies are ineffective, most bullying isn't online but in real life, and bullying online often follows from the same, that the primary risk factor for bullying is being socially marginalized, and the correlation between bullying and suicide is tenuous at best. Source [csmonitor.com]
I tend to agree with this position, but the Christian Science Monitor may not be the best source to cite from ;)
yes, but having never done something at all, when it is inherently a experiential endeavor that is as unique as individuals are
By that logic, few if anyone has any standing, since each individual is so unique. Just because you raised some kids doesn't mean your experience is relevant to some other parent is going through with their kid.
I see the whole "you don't have kids so your opinion doesn't matter" attitude a form of bullying itself. It's alienating and disrespecting people just because they didn't do the "cool" thing of having kids.
Of course, I wouldn't be surprised if those same "you don't know what it's like" parents then turn around and ask the state (who may consist of people who aren't parents) to intervene and help them and their precious unique snowflake. Apparently those non-parents know how to best treat you/your kid.
If your website takes ads from Iranian companies and has an interface in Farsi then yes, you should obey the laws of Iran. If you don't like it, then don't do business there.
So, if I take Spanish ads, which countries laws am i subject to? There are dozens of contenders. Farsi is not owned by Iran, anyone that wants to can speak it, inside of Iran or out. Just as English isn't owned by the United Kingdom or the United States. You do business where you do business, not per the language that you use. Its gonna always come down to where you are physically located.
Multi-nationals are more vulnerable this way, because they do actually have a physical presence in many countries. I don't have any sympathy - its something an enterprise has to negotiate - you have to select a set of countries that have reasonably compatible laws to operate in, so that you don't get into a "banned in one country, required in another" bind.
yes, but having never done something at all, when it is inherently a experiential endeavor that is as unique as individuals are, means you basically have no standing to speak about the actual complexities involved,
but I'm absolutely certain until I've done it 3 or 4 times, preferably with kids of different genetic and socio-economic backgrounds, I can't really say I know enough to pass judgement on someone else or offer critiques. I can critique the actions of any one person (so for example, these bullys are asshats, that is pretty straight forward) but who knows what complexities these parents were dealing with.
No, I disagree and quite strongly.
By way of a rather silly example, I've never been on a sky dive but I can nevertheless deduce that failing to open the parachute is a really bad idea.
Likewise, I can guess that lavishing a child with attention when they make a fuss is going to train them to make a fuss when they want attention. I know someone who does this with his kids, and sure enough when he is around they behave very badly because that's how they get attention. The kids mum does not do this and they behave much better when the dad is not around.
Some things are just obvious and some people are simply oblivious to it. I'm not saying it's easy to ignore a kid throwing a tantrum out in public (heaven's no!) but nevertheless I can see what is in this case the better long term course of action.
Well I guessed. Now the kids have grown a bit and I can observe the behavioural traits it turns out that I guessed entirely correctly. In other words I did critique (well in my head of course) and I was entirely vindicated.
Likewise, I certainly can judge people who feed their kids very poor quality food, or who expose their kids to large amounts of second hand smoke.
So, I disagree that you have to have been a parent (even to multiple kids) to be able to make any kind of judgement over other people's parenting abilities.
The thing is that while being a parent does give you first hand experience, like every other task, it doesn't mean you are any good at it.
The thing is you don't actually have to be any good at something to be able to pass some degree of judgement correctly about it. For instance, I can't play football, but I could tell the difference between a great footballer and a terrible footballer on TV. Neither can I play a musical instrument but I can tell the difference between one being played well and one being played badly.
Parenting is an activity like any other. Not being an expert I cannot judge the subtelties, but I can easily spot the gross errors. And there are frequently plenty of them to go around.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Earthquakes are not predictable in the specific, they are somewhat predictable in general. Italy is subject to earthquakes, generally. This is well-known, and documented through a long history of having earthquakes. Why the country does not adopt reasonable earthquake construction standards and _enforce them_ is a great mystery to people in other earthquake prone areas (Japan, California, et.al.). It's third-world. The fact that you put geologists in jail instead, for not predicting the specific (impossible) is baffling. You all know there will be earthquakes. Anyone, politician, "scientist", or whoever that says otherwise should be mocked by a public that knows better.
I doubt it -- every single "zero tolerance" policy I've seen on any subject (bullying included, but hardly uniquely) has been proposed by administrators largely as a way of minimizing their own responsibility for applying discretion appropriately to individual circumstances (and, particularly, of making it harder for them to be challenged for inappropriate punishments meted out for reasons, such as racial/ethnic discrimination, other than the officially stated one.) Sure, they are often motivated by parents demanding that something be done, and "zero tolerance" is often an impressive-sounding way of saying you are doing something, but the choice of that something is all about having a shield to hide behind, not actually being effective (or doing what people want, for that matter.)
And, in practice, the actual enforcement is often as arbitrary and poorly-exercising discretion as prior to zero-tolerance policies, but its harder for those arbitrarily punished to challenge the actions because instead of showing that the punishment was excessive in their particular case (which, under zero tolerance policies, it usually is not on its face), they need to actually be able to show that the supposedly-universal policy is inconsistently applied, which is much harder to do (because its hard to even get access to the evidence necessary to show this.)
Actually, he didn't attack the point at all. He attacked the posters parenting *credentials* as a non-parent, to imply that somehow a non-parent can't *possibly* know anything about parenting, despite the fact that non-parents are perfectly capable of observing the world around them and seeing what does/doesn't work based on the behaviors of parents and their respective children.
Claiming or implying that a non-parent *can't* know anything about the effects of responsible parenting on children is the same as claiming or implying that a non-heroin addict can't know anything about the effects of heroin on people. It's perfectly reasonable to say that parents will have a different perspective on the process than non-parents, just as an addict will have a different perspective on their drug of "choice", than a non-addict, but that certainly doesn't mean that *only* parents and addicts have a *valid* perspective on child-rearing or drugs.
So why isn't the law case against the parents/guardians?
Because the parents didn't have a $12 billion IPO a year ago. Duh.
I can't see how you can fault them for this unfortunate incident. What's a 14 year old girl doing at a party, drunk, with a bunch of boys? Do the parents not have any responsibility here?
You don't have a clue.
Unfortunately, there is absolutely no evidence [csmonitor.com] to support a link between suicide and bullying. As it so happens, suicide is the result of mental illness, and the DSM-V doesn't have anything listed for "recipient of mean words". Because it's a mental illness that's the cause here, specifically untreated depression
You're just mincing words. Perhaps there's no correlation between suicide and bullying, but what about between bullying and depression? I'll tell you that I, personally, was generally pretty happy growing up until the bullying started.
It's comforting to know that it wasn't the *bullying* that led me to suicidal thoughts.
Give me a break, parents. Your kid got drunk and disheveled at a party. Kids were kids, took pictures and posted on facebook. Rude, yes, but giving a bad name to serious "bullying". We can't legislate "be nice to everyone", it's unrealistic and NOT the purvey of our justice system.
Buck up. I'm sorry your daughter lacked coping mechanisms for dealing with life's disappointments, that really sucks, but suing facebook for existing is stupid greed.
No one is responsible for someone committing suicide except the one who commits suicide. Unless the person was being held captive and tortured, it's a personal choice / problem. This is why so many faiths condemn those who commit suicide. It's their own choice. They did it, no one else pulled the trigger, popped the pills, or what have you.
I was bullied plenty growing up, but suicide isn't something I'd ever consider. Teens committing suicide seem to think it's the only way to get justice or something. That someone will finally notice when they are gone. Why do they think that? Because bleeding hearts DO try to blame others. Stop making suicide a platform for justice, and take away that motivation from these kids.
If your kid commits suicide, it is nothing more than depression and a selfish act. At any time they could have sought help from teachers, parents, and authorities... instead, they go for the headliner because it's because fashionable, it gets them on the news. The "I'll show them" motive. Come on, help take that motivation away. Start treating suicide as a disgraceful selfish act, one that will leave them remembered as being an ass for hurting all those around them by doing it. *THEN* you might see the kids stop doing it.
And for goodness sake, pay attention people. If you see a kid in dispare or in trouble, be the nice person to act and help them out *BEFORE* they off themselves. If you don't try to help before they do it, you have no right to yell at the problem of teenage suicide after they do it.
But stop blaming others. And certainly stop blaming web sites that should not have to pay people to be censors just to protect your children because you couldn't be bothered to take an interest yourself.
Now I know, some of you will be good parents, do your best to help, and it still happens. But remember, it isn't your fault. And it certainly isn't Facebook's fault. It's the kids own, and no one else's. *They* made their choice.
Don't bother replying to the thread for me to read it. Someone else can argue with you. I'm not going to debate the cold hard truth.
When I was in my teens I did farm work during holidays that strengthened me quite a bit, so in that case yes, but not because of a "sense of reliance and independence".
http://marriedmansexlife.com/
Whether or not I'm a parent has absolutely dick to do with whether or not my statements are correct.
That may be true if you have a background in psychology, or have something which lends to the authenticity of your message, but in lacking suck credentials, some parenting experience would be better than none.
Speaking of critical thinking skills; here's some extra support for what I've been saying (and you haven't);
You then proceed to link a quote from an article which suggests the presence of studies, but provides no links or sources to such studies. I don't disagree with most of what you're saying, but the link you posted offers your argument little credibility.
Apparently wizard is not a legitimate career path, so I chose programmer instead.
As a developer currently working on a project involving an ID card reader, I think this problem *could* maybe be solved with some clever and secure electronic signature infrastructure. I don't know how it is in other countries, but here in Belgium our ID cards allow us to digitally sign documents of all sorts.
It's very much used for tax-papers, in particular, and from a technological point-of-view, I don't think it's unreasonable to build an identification infrastructure for social networks around this.
The obvious privacy issue could be addressed if the verification entity was independent and trustful, much like we see Certification Authorities (CA) for SSL. These authorities migt then be trusted to only hand out the age of an individual signing up for the account. This would, in effect, act like an age barrier.
The discussions reminded of an exercise we went through in a college psychology class, in which a story is told about a woman who was killed, and the students in the class must rank the culpability of all of the characters in the story. I googled "psychology class story about who is responsible for murder of woman on ferry".
The first google result was an academic paper about how that exercise is used and interpreted by some psychology professor somewhere.
The second google result was Mark Zuckerberg's wikipedia page. I wonder if that would have happened before the news of this suicide had come out.
What you're demanding amounts to a zero tolerance policy for parents.
The fact that you don't have any kids is, in fact, quite relevant to your standing to make this argument. You're like the grad programmer who arrives in a software company and says "Huh, I could rewrite your whole front end with a couple hundred lines of Ruby". You may really believe what you're saying, but only because you don't have the first glimmerings of the notion of the clue of an idea of what parenting actually involves. And if anything you say turns out to be "true" - whatever the hell that might even mean, in this domain - that's basically a lucky accident.
Just as an aside:
I doubt any jurisdiction could ban minors completly from contracts, or else they couldn't do as much as buy an ice cream or a coke on their own.
That's why I tell my kids all those toys they bought ... they actually belong to meeeeeeee! Muhahahah!
For example, 110 BGB [gesetze-im-internet.de] is the law that adds that exception to the general "no contracts with minors" rule.
You are citing legal German at me? Completely unfair, it is guaranteed that your understanding of it exceeds mine by a few hundred percent. But since you have been intrepid enough to argue common law with a common law lawyer, I'll be cheeky enough to return the complement ... ;)
So here's your opportunity to shoot me down in flames: While I can't actually read that provision, I wonder if it does support your argument (a minor to enter a contract, as opposed to forming one ... my this is getting pedantic). From what little I can parse, the provision would seem to make a contract valid ab initio which a minor purports to enter, where the means to fulfil the contract have been furnished to said minor for that purpose by another with the capacity to enter a contract. (ie. it speaks to the validity of the contract rather than the status of the minor.) Should I have parsed this correctly, this would leave the Vertretter or den Dritten as the contracting party for the purposes of any future legal action, oder?
LOL, you have to give me marks for my Tapferkeit, but then I guess German is not all that far removed from English ;)
Better to be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident a security. --Edmund Burke
It's highly unlikely any training will help you if it's a fight.
is contradicted by this statement:
I've done a reasonable amount of full contact fighting which taught me to get the first heavy hit in
It's true that situational awareness will do more for you than being trained but caught unawares. My wife does ju-jutsu training. They teach the women that if they are confronted by a large male attacker, unless they have no other option they should run for the exact reason you bring up, it is hard to land a devastating first blow and the first blow they land will devastate you. I tell her find a weapon, since we have kids and it's likely she won't be able to run without leaving them. Untrained, even with a kitchen knife she's not that scary. I want her trained so that hopefully she could intimidate an attacker and as a last resort have a better chance of landing that first blow.
http://marriedmansexlife.com/
actually you definitely do. But, your example is a great one:
you have lots of experience listening to music, playing/watching soccer/football, and seeing over multiple instances how your friend's parenting affected his child.
The problem is you have quite a variety of experiences with the first 2, and what sounds like very limited experiences with the latter. So you come to a generalized conclusion that sure, works if you also assume every child has the same make up as your friend's(you forget that your experience is equivalent to the spherical cow), but all you prove is you haven't been exposed to proper variety. I can give an excellent counterexample of a friend in middle school who, at first, seemed like he was being completely spoiled and that his bad behavior was exactly what you implied, a function of the fact his parents bought him gifts when he got into trouble (and also when he did well, but I always thought it was a great way to make him into a selfish person who didn't understand actions and consequences). I also thought it was really weird how they never showed the same style of lavish gift giving to their older son.
Well I find out later that he had some very very severe mental health issues that meant he didn't understand how to take being yelled at/scolded as we are used to. This also filtered into why it was so hard for him to function in a regular school along with a lot of other things. Whereas their elder son suffered from some other issues that made him suicidal at one point. Sure, their actions didn't look good on the surface, but until you know the entire circumstances, it's very hard to pass judgement. What the GGGP was saying was that you can draw a straight line from "child commits suicide" to "parents did a really crap job and I can provide a list of things that they must not have done".
You are right, you don't have to be a parent to get a lot of the experience, but the GGGP certainly shows the arrogance and firmness of belief that only a person without experience could have and the experience has to come with observing and interacting with children on more than one level.
So sure, maybe this parent did commit some gross errors, but maybe they did everything in their power properly and they are pissed off that there is one public forum where verbal abuse is allowed when it may not be allowed in any other parts of Italian society. Fundamentally, you, and I, and those defending and those condemning the parents, do not know.
you do realize that your link in no way debunks the belief that bullying can lead or a a major factor in driving a depressed youth to commit suicide?
In fact, your article cites 0 studies that show in and instead begin talking about how bullying is believed to cause mass murder (not the discussion here or a commonly held belief if reports of recent shootings are believed).
Actually, the only important thing in all of this is whether or not your child feels like you are someone that they can talk to. If your child can talk to you about their experiences, you will have a chance at helping them.
Both of my children know they can talk to me. One is an adult now and the other one will soon be an adult. Both have _always_ been able to talk to me and as a consequence, they have both have had a much easier childhood than I had. They have had no extreme problems that they felt they could not solve.
"Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
When a child becomes mentally ill the parents are to blame. If a child becomes socially marginalized, the primary guardian(s) are at fault for also marginalizing that child. Everybody is given the opportunity to have children, but not everyone is successful in producing viable offspring. It is not proper to give responsibility to society for raising children, as this unfairly and wastefully dis-empowers individuals.
non permitted use of personal image is more like copyright infringement, so perhaps 1/4MILLION US$ per illicit viewing is an appropriate legal remedy
First, you aren't the messenger. You made sweeping statements about parenthood yourself. You didn't simply carry somebody else's message.
Second, while your statements aren't actually incorrect, they're generalized past the point of usefulness. There are situations in which your approach would work great, and others where they wouldn't. Without knowing anything about the girl's family, I can't say whether your approach would have worked there.
Third, it was fairly obvious that you aren't a parent, since almost everybody who makes sweeping romantic statements about raising children is. You do not know what you're talking about. Raising a child is not really what you'd expect, and I believe nobody makes an informed choice about having a first child.
Just because a 14-year-old gets drunk at a party doesn't mean she has bad parents. Part of growing up is making mistakes, and part of a parent's job is to let them (and try to make sure they don't suffer too much). If this were regular, I'd suspect bad parenting or a child that just can't be controlled, and I don't know how much of the latter is bad parenting and how much is the nature of the child. Similarly, while it's nice to think you'd know when your child needs support, teenagers will shut their parents out, and can do so quite effectively. As part of growing up, they have to establish their own identity, and need to separate from their parents. It's quite possible that the girl hid her feelings, didn't talk to her parents about this, and snapped at them when they tried to find out what was going on. Kids need to try handling things themselves, as practice for when they move out. Tragically, this can fail really badly, and teenagers don't have the best judgment of what they can and can't handle.
Recognize that every parent and child are unique, and every situation that comes up needs to be faced as it is, not what it's similar to.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
micromanagement is/will be destroying the Internet in the very near future.
The new right fascists are bilingual. They speak English and Bullshit.
It doesn't feel good?
The new right fascists are bilingual. They speak English and Bullshit.
I've rarely encountered a group so self-righteous as some non-parents, frankly. They don't know what they're talking about, but they're very happy to dish out blame or tell people what they'd be like as a parent. A parent, no matter how the child turned out, has some idea of the process and how it works. You don't. That's fine, and I don't know if you ever will have a kid, but at least have some humility here. You sound like a stereotypical slashdotter telling people what's wrong with their sex lives, frankly.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
People will do what they want and the tut tut ing of others is only an encoragement to some,so you stop minors joining face book well they'd then learn to forge birth certificates to say they are old enough but you will have conditioned a whole genaration to disrespect stupid laws ,most f us are sick to the back teeth of social engineers in government stopping us from doing things they are scared of but we think are fun like hang gliding white water rafting drug taking we know the risks its our choice but they never will admit we own our own lives .If I or any one else makes a bad decision we have to live with it .it has always happened and will always happen .SO let's just leave these blood sucking parracite lawyers out of ripping some easy cash off face book as we know who pays in the end .and guess what people will still comit suicide wether or not it was face book linked or just normal maliciouse gossip untill yuo can change people their will always be victims ,my sincere condolences to the parents with their unfortunate loss.
This goes back to the core responsibility of the Parents to police after their own children. People can cry it's someone else's fault all they want, but until we get involved in our kids lives and know what they are doing and who they are hanging out with, this kind of thing will only keep going, because using Facebook or any other entity as a scapegoat is only something the parents are doing to make themselves feel better. Kids surely don't lie about their age when they make A Facebook account, so they.?
When you sign the contract and say you are 18 or over, does that not breach the contract, implied or otherwise?
Section 230 of the Communications Decency Attack of 1996 (CDA) (Title V of the Telecommunications Act of 1996) states:
“No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider.”
One could argue that the above absolves FB and associated ISP's for that matter, from liability for the words/comments (including crimes committed) by third-party website users or its forums. Stretching the law further; and it even offers a safe-haven when/if the provider and its administrators fail to act even after becoming aware of o of their websites or online forums, even if the provider or administrator fails to take action after receiving notice of the harmful or offensive content.
I'm know FB, YouTube and others have established self-governing policies on what content is/is not allowed. However, such filtering is not 100% (think about how many FB posts take place daily). It's unfortunate for the friends & family of this victim; I wish she would've sought the counsel of someone who could have offered some practical advice. At minimum, she could have avoided using FB. Call me "Anonymous Coward" but If there's a group of thugs that have a strong disdain towards me but who also like to hang out at my favorite bar on Friday nights; I can decide to visit my 2nd favorite bar, choose a different night or take my chances and go when there are there knowing that decision comes with increased risk. That logical thought processes that may have escaped this young lady but bottom line, we all have alternative options for addressing life's challenges..
Perhaps legal pursuit should be against those who participated in the slander (since most were minors, then their parents). Oh but wait, then that would mean much less $'s awarded. Although I'm not FB user, I do know that it's communication medium, a tool for expression, etc., the wrongdoing here is at the hand of the slanderers not the connecting framework. If ZAGAT posted terrible ratings for a normally 5-star restaurant, are they to blame if the restaurant owner becomes depressed and takes his/her life? I'd be surprised if the judge doesn't throw this out, otherwise, it becomes the start of a slippery slope and many more lawsuits to come (especially if there's a large monetary sum awarded).
To FB Legal Team, I strongly advise against any type of private settlement; (if any, perhaps covering the funeral costs).