Windows 8.1 RTM Trickling Out, With Start Menu and Boot-to-Desktop

poofmeisterp writes "It's about time. Windows 8.1 will be released to end users in October, and RTM is being released now: 'Windows 8.1, codenamed "Blue," is introducing a number of changes designed to make the new operating system more palatable to current Windows users. Windows 8.1 is adding a Start Button, a boot-straight-to-desktop option; the ability to unpin all Metro apps; built-in tutorials; an improved Windows Store and a host of other consumer- and business-focused features. Microsoft launched its one and only Windows 8.1 consumer preview test build in late June.'"

Comments

Too little too late

[Teresita]

The start button takes you from the Desktop right back to the Metro screen, which is what pisses everyone off in the first place.

Re:Too little too late

[Anonymous Coward]

How? I couldn't find it. Not that I had to care.

Re:Too little too late

[Anonymous Coward]

True, you can - if you choose one and go install it. You cannot have an old school start menu direct from Microsoft though. There are certainly 3rd party implementations that are pretty good.

Re:Too little too late

[Cinder6]

Not everyone. I've found at least one person aside from myself who prefers the new start screen over the old menu. More icons + better grouping options means a better system, IMO. Sure, it could look nicer, but that's not really the point. At least 8.1 lets you use your desktop wallpaper for the start screen background, so the transition isn't as jarring.

Re:Too little too late

[J. J. Ramsey]

You can fix it yourself if you administer the machine. However, at work, people often can't do that because they are--rightfully--not given the access rights to do so.

Re:Too little too late

[Alwin Henseler]

*citation needed*

How do you know? Did you personally try the exact build the article talks about? Or even a later build? Not saying you're talking nonsense, but the article states: ".. which means almost no one outside (other than OEMs) would get officially released Windows 8.1 bits until October 18". So it would be good to know whether your description is based on inside developer access, a leaked build, hearsay, or assumption based on an earlier released build.

Beside that: if it's in response to customer demand, what would be the point of adding back in a start button that does something other than what users expect from a start button?

Re:Too little too late

[roc97007]

> If you know, I don't sit on my ass and whine like a spoiled brat who can't take any initiative.

You don't get it. (1) Yes I can fix it. But why should I buy something that I need to beat into submission, when what I have works fine? (2) Yes I can fix it, but the 10,000+ users in my company, most of whom have other jobs than being a computer geek, would struggle with it, and I'd lose my job if I foisted that off on them.

Re:Too little too late

[Anonymous Coward]

Too much anger will make you ill. You need to relax more.

Re:Too little too late

[bryanbrunton]

The old menu allows quick access to the majority of system functions. It did this with a minimum of clicks, mouse movement and extraneous information.

If I am working, I don't want to see weather information, stock quotes and baseball scores. Sure, you can remove those tiles from the start screen, but then that defeats the purpose of having that information available when I am not working.

I actually might enjoy the start screen when I am not working, but that goes back to the core malfunction of the start screen: it is mixing core functional areas:

(1) Program/System/Settings Launcher
(2) Information Provider

Why is so freaking difficult for the so-called User Interface experts at Microsoft to understand that this is a colossal fuck up to jam these two key functional areas onto the Start Screen?

Re:Too little too late

[roc97007]

Thanks to Penny Arcade I thought the same thing - however its not true. I did download the community release and you can indeed have an old school start menu again.

Only for certain rather bizarre values of "old school start menu". The icon takes you back to the start screen, which is precisely, absolutely, not the point of having a start button. You cannot change this without third party software, which, given that choice, makes Win8 a corporate non-player. Win7 will have to last us until Microsoft gets a clue.

Re:Too little too late

[AmiMoJo]

Name one OS that is just right out of the box and needs no tweaks. Linux always needs fiddling with (that's why you love it) and MacOS's two-finger scroll scrolls the wrong way by default.

At least with Windows 8 you can use AD to roll out suitable settings for everyone in one hit. I'm sure you can do the same thing with Linux/MacOS somehow too.

Re:Too little too late

[roc97007]

Whatever products Microsoft craps out, there are always a handful of people somewhere who against all reason like it. There were a handful of people who liked Microsoft Bob. A company I used to work for actually started rolling out Windows ME, based on user trials, although they realized their mistake and pulled it back a month later. I have a friend who still has a laptop running Vista, and she's fine with it, although whenever something goes wrong or needs to change, (which is annoyingly often) she always brings it to me.

So yes, I'm sure there are one or two people out there who like the retro-8bit-arcade look-and-feel that is the Metro interface. Maybe it reminds them of when they were playing Space Invaders on the cocktail table machine while sipping their wine spritzers and listening to a bad cover of "Shadow Dancing". People like a lot of things, for a lot of reasons. But to have a successful business, you need a large enough number of people liking the product to meet investor expectations. Doesn't seem likely.

Re:Too little too late

[something_wicked_thi]

The linked article refers to a start button, not a start menu. Furthermore, it would be odd indeed for Microsoft to add new features between the preview builds and the final build. The point of the preview builds, after all, is to test the real build. Adding a start menu at this juncture would be extremely strange from a software qualification perspective.

Also, if Windows 8.1 were adding a start menu, you'd think Microsoft would say so in their Windows 8.1 feature list.

Furthermore, from the Microsoft Windows 8.1 Product Guide:

With new desktop enhancements, including the new Start button, workers can easily transition between the Start screen and the desktop. IT professionals can also customize the Start button to open the Apps view, which provides a complete list of installed apps. This list can be reordered by category, date, or name, and desktop apps can appear at the front of the list. Windows 8.1 can also boot right to the desktop. In fact, you can start directly in any view– the Start screen, Apps view, the desktop, or even a single app.

Note that Apps view is not the start menu. Rather, it's the Start Screen's Apps screen. I.e. this.

Re:Too little too late

[hedwards]

Maybe with Ballmer on his way out, there's hope for MS to actually start producing decent products again. Win 7 was pretty mediocre, but after XP and Vista that was a serious step in the right direction. Then they came out with Win 8 which through all of that progress in the trash because they wanted the same interface to work on tablets, forgetting that few desktops have a touch interface.

OTOH, Ballmer deserves an award from Linus for doing more than anybody else to popularize Linux. Without his dedication to incompetent software design, many people wouldn't have known that Linux existed and that it's actually a viable desktop for most purposes.

Re:Too little too late

[hedwards]

How much is MS paying you to shill for them?

The point here is that this is supposed to be a user setting that individual users can change to suit their preferred method of interacting with the computer. Not all settings should be locked down, some settings should be available to change by the user.

Re:Too little too late

[PCM2]

At least 8.1 lets you use your desktop wallpaper for the start screen background, so the transition isn't as jarring.

I bought this argument until I started using it. Then I realized that I always run with my main windows maximized or tiled so that I never actually even see the desktop most of the time. So the transition is every bit as jarring, because now when I hit the Windows key I see something that looks like my desktop but none of my stuff is on it.

Re:Too little too late

[hedwards]

Vista wasn't particularly bad. It mostly had serious bugs on launch and poor driver support. But, the system itself mainly suffered from the way the UAC worked.

That being said, it wasn't a particularly good OS, Win 7 is quite a bit better, and it wasn't particularly competitive with what *BSD and Linux were doing at the same time, apart from having better vendor support. In terms of the merits though, like all other MS OSes of the last decade, it's markedly behind the competition without any compelling reason for existing other than people target it for their software development.

Re:Too little too late

[J. J. Ramsey]

I'd say that the point is more that Microsoft took an interface that worked fine, namely the Start Menu, and replaced it with something that, for the most part, did not work as well. Third-party tools to customize an interface should be niceties, not a cure for someone else's screw-up.

Re:Too little too late

[Truekaiser]

It is actually worse than that.
It's a third party program, not intended for corporate use, put on over 10k computers.
That is several dozen if not more different hardware configurations. The program is bound to malfunction on some of them.
This is on top of the fact you still have to somehow 'train' all those 10k+ people on how to use it too.

Re:Too little too late

[GrumpySteen]

I'd like you to replace your computer with this laptop. The case is an ugly mix of blocky colors and they keyboard is a 5x4 array of keys the size of business cards, but there's a pair of left right buttons that lets you scroll through the list of keys you're used to having. Trust me... it's a much better way of accessing the keys on the keyboard than the previous way which put them all in front of you at once.

If you aren't happy with it not working quite the way your old one worked, you can always go find a new keyboard and install it to make it work the way you want it to.

And if you're complain about paying for product that doesn't do what you want it to do and is demonstrably worse than the one it replaced until you spend the time and effort to fix the problems we designed into it, it's purely because you're sitting on your ass and whining about it like a spoiled brat who can't take any initiative, RIGHT?

Re:Too little too late

[EdZ]

The 'minimum effort' way to access programs, control panel snap-ins, etc hasn't changed since Vista: press the start key on your keyboard, type the first, occasionally second (and possibly third, for lesser-used programs) characters of the name, then hit enter. If you using the hunt-around-some-menus technique you might experience a slight speed-up or slow-down when going from start menu to start screen, depending on how organised you are (or how resistant to change you are), but for anyone using windows in a sane manner the difference is nonexistant.

Re:Too little too late

[roc97007]

Name one OS that is just right out of the box and needs no tweaks. Linux always needs fiddling with (that's why you love it) and MacOS's two-finger scroll scrolls the wrong way by default.

At least with Windows 8 you can use AD to roll out suitable settings for everyone in one hit. I'm sure you can do the same thing with Linux/MacOS somehow too.

This is more than tweaks. You don't understand what "lack of control, conveyance, continuity, and context" means to people who are not computer geeks, don't have a job even remotely close to the computer industry, and only need computers to do certain business related tasks. When you're not a computer geek or Microsoft employee, you don't necessarily touch computers every day, and trying to remember which hot corner to touch or where your application is, or how to get out of a full screen Metro app, is not something they're going to remember or even want to try to figure out. This can't be fixed by using A/D to roll out settings.

However, there is a solution. And that is, to stick with Windows 7 until Microsoft abandons this crap. (Actually, we're still largely on XP, but are starting to roll out 7 on new hardware.)

Re:Too little too late

[roc97007]

Downloading and double clicking the installer for Classic Shell hardly constitutes beating into submission. Yes, it really is that easy.

There has never been a single operating system that I didn't have to spend some amount of time configuring to my liking. This is no different.

No, it really isn't. This still leaves you with charms, hot corners, and sliding icons. We'll stick with 7, thanks.

Re:Too little too late

[Lumpy]

Hi Steve!

I see you are having problems getting used to not working for Microsoft anymore...

Re:Too little too late

[Anonymous Coward]

You dont recognize Steve Ballmer's words when you see them?

That right there is Steve "the chair" Ballmer posting on slashdot...

Re:Too little too late

[SScorpio]

If you want to modify system settings windows key+x or right clicking the bottom left or start button if you are on 8.1 will give you a menu that blows away at 7 let you immediately access.

Someone clicking the start menu or using the windows key may have pinned favorites they access all the time. The start screen allows you to pin a lot more on it. And 8.1 gives you a small item size so you can fit even more.

The way I used to use the Vista/7 start menu was just pressing the windows key and then typing the name of the program I want. The start screen works the same way without you needing to bring up the search charm. Just press open the start screen and start typing.

Where I thing Microsoft messed up was forcing all of the metro apps on desktop users. The default PDF and image handlers are horrible. Thankfully the desktop version for the picture viewer is still included. A simple option to allow a user to use all of the new metro or fall back to the desktop mode of apps would have kept away a lot of confusion. Especially when the metro apps act as a walled garden and don't give you easy access to your files.

Re:Too little too late

[roc97007]

> Vista wasn't particularly bad. It mostly had serious bugs on launch and poor driver support. But, the system itself mainly suffered from the way the UAC worked.

Like they say, you don't get a second chance to make a first impression. By the time the initial problems were fixed, we had already decided not to deploy it. I suspect the same thing will be true of Windows 8 -- even if they fix it now, the damage has already been done.

Re:Too little too late

[swalve]

Because it's convenient? "Oh look, i have new email!" "Oh look, ProgramX is done doing what I told it to!"

Holy shit, combining those two functional areas is the whole damned point.

Re:Too little too late

[roc97007]

> Never used it, huh?

I don't intend to. The convertible on which we have Win8 has been a complete bust. As a touch interface 8 sucks, and going back to 7 makes the touch screen worthless. We'll be giving the device away, and looking into the Samsung Note for a touch device. My workstation is running 7, and will continue to do so. Why would I buy a new OS that has a bunch of stuff I don't want and then have to disable it? What REASON is there for me to upgrade?

Re:Too little too late

[EXTomar]

It can be done with Linux where it involves initial settings in install image, "company repo", and the software packages alter whatever is needed. When something changes you update the "company-settings" packages and it gets updated.

The issue in my mind is that in my experience the value of this isn't that high in Linux environments. What are the enterprise settings that need to be set on 100 workstations post install? Outside of a few server changes, most changes can be handled and managed by service settings rather than workstation changes. If some software package goes from 1.x to 2.0 that requires a complete wipe/reset of settings that can be done at the package level and put on the "company repo".

I'm sure Windows Admin love using AD to roll out changes but I have so far failed to figure out what that would be that falls outside of "roll up package" scenario.

Re:Too little too late

[mcgrew]

Microsoft: removing features and calling it an upgrade.

Re:Too little too late

[mcgrew]

Win 7 was pretty mediocre

Well, yes, when you compare it to Linux and probably Apple as well (I don't have an Apple, but I have W7 and kubuntu and XP). Compared to Microsoft's other OSes it's the best they've done.

Re:Too little too late

[bryanbrunton]

No, the 'minimum effort' way to access programs is to put a Quick Launch Bar into the Windows task bar. One mouse flick, one click. I have 20 programs with icons there that I launch without the back-assward, 20th century methodology of typing in program names.

Re:Too little too late

[mcgrew]

I don't think he's shilling, maybe his office runs Linux or Apple and he's a gamer and didn't know how screwed up W7 is in this department, it's one of my biggest gripes (which thankfully I don't have on this notebook, which will have Linux on it if it gets much slower). I can't even change the screen saver on my work computer. That's just crazy.

Re:Too little too late

[bryanbrunton]

No, no and no.

To all the Microsoft Shills who insist on listing 100 different windows key combinations to replicate what was available from the old start menu, or if you are going to advise me to start typing in program names to launch programs on my mouse operated graphical user interface:

YOU ARE FUCKING WRONG, AND STUPID IN THE HEAD.

Re:Too little too late

[mcgrew]

Kubuntu. You can tweak it to your heart's content if you want, but you don't have to. Plus everything is there in a nice point and click that beats the hell out of Windows Control Panel.

Mandrake and Mandriva were as well when I used them years ago.

Re: Too little too late

[pollarda]

I just gave up and switched to Windows 8 -- just like you suggested. I did find it easier to not install the programs you suggested as I'll just become dependant on them. Instead, I have grown to love the beautiful orange tinge that Windows 8 gives to the screen. I figure if I ever want to switch the screen back, I can switch from Cheetoes to Chicken in a Biscuit.

Re:Too little too late

[bryanbrunton]

Sorry, I got the email monitoring covered elsewhere. I got a web browser open, I got Outlook alerts in the lower right of the screen.

When I open the open the start menu to run some old program (the name of which I have probably forgotten because I installed in 2 year ago), I don't want to learn about my inbox, my facebook, the price of MSFT.

Combining these functional areas is brain damage.

Re:Too little too late

[zippthorne]

Can someone please tell me what windows ME did or didn't do that was so different from windows 98 and bad for users? I used Win ME on a laptop in the early 00's and the only differences I remember actually noticing were cosmetic.

Re:Too little too late

[mcgrew]

press the start key on your keyboard, type the first, occasionally second (and possibly third, for lesser-used programs) characters of the name, then hit enter.

Yet you Windows enthusiasts have been ragging the Linux community for years about needing to use a command line (which you don't unless you're running a server).

My main tower runs kubuntu using the TV as a monitor and an infrared keyboard and mouse. I seldom touch the keyboard on it, it's almost always on a shelf across the room.

Re:Too little too late

[garyoa1]

"Why is so freaking difficult for the so-called User Interface experts at Microsoft to understand that this is a colossal fuck up to jam these two key functional areas onto the Start Screen?"

Because for some odd reason they're trying to get windows to work like a Mac. They see it taking off and think more would like the interface to work that way. They couldn't be more wrong.

Re:Too little too late

[Cinder6]

While this is true, I've never found it an issue. If I need the Control Panel, I just hit the windows key and type "cont" and select it. Is it more work than the old start menu? Yes and no; it requires more key presses, but on the other hand, it doesn't require use of the mouse. Furthermore, I, at least, find myself accessing the system configuration options so rarely that it just doesn't bother me. I will grant that the side "Settings" menu is poorly thought-out, especially the power menu.

The start screen isn't perfect, but I think it's definitely a step in the right direction, and it's superior to the old method for 90% of my use cases.

Re:Too little too late

[Anonymous Coward]

ClassicShell is amazingly nice, and free, so I don't see the big deal about Microsoft's own Start button and whatever they may or may not have hooked it up to.

Re: Too little too late

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously. Just stop. Whatever they're paying you, is it worth your dignity?

Re:Too little too late

[0123456]

Name one OS that is just right out of the box and needs no tweaks. Linux always needs fiddling with (that's why you love it) and MacOS's two-finger scroll scrolls the wrong way by default.

How very strange.

I installed Linux on my netbook and it just worked. I installed Linux on my laptop, and it just worked. I installed Linux on my work desktop machine, and it just worked. Where is this Linux which 'always needs fiddling with' that you speak of?

When you only have one GUI option in your operating system and you have to install a third-party addon just to make it usable, it's a complete failure.

Re:Too little too late

[spire3661]

Replacement start windows are almost universally off-limits to Corporate I.T.

Re:Too little too late

[0123456]

The Start Menu is not back. All they've done is added a Start button which takes you back to the crappy Metro screen where you can't find any of the apps you want to run.

Putting the Start Menu back would have been trivial, it's what users wanted, but Microsoft crapped in their face by making the Start button go to the Metro screen that users hate.

Re:Too little too late

[Man On Pink Corner]

Correct, there's no reason to downgrade to Windows 7 if you install Windows 8 plus ClassicShell.

But the Start Menu hasn't been restored in Windows 8.1. It's just another raised middle finger from Ballmer to the rest of us, and hopefully the last.

Re:Too little too late

[spire3661]

I.T. people cant and dont use random weirdo programs from no-name companies. Classic shell cannot be used in a corporate environment.

Re:Too little too late

[Man On Pink Corner]

The 'minimum effort' way to access programs, control panel snap-ins, etc hasn't changed since Vista: press the start key on your keyboard, type the first, occasionally second (and possibly third, for lesser-used programs) characters of the name, then hit enter

I liked this feature better when it was called "MS-DOS."

Re:Too little too late

[roc97007]

> Then why are you talking about stuff you know nothing about?

What part of "I own a device running Windows 8" did you miss in my previous posting? It was only five sentences.

I'm posting on this topic because I have to support Windows, and when Microsoft craps out something that's obviously going to be difficult to support, I get concerned.

Re:Too little too late

[spire3661]

No one is saying its terrible on its own. Its terribleness comes from being FORCED to use it.

Re:Too little too late

[peragrin]

Honestly I have always considered all those extras(weather, baseball scores, stock quotes etc to be almost useless.

Maybe if was in the financial industry or actively managing my own stock portfolio the stock quotes might make sense, but it is only going to show me what I have not an overview of what is going up and down.

Weather? Um I can look out a window to see current conditions.

Sport scores? there are very few real time updates to games and games themselves don't last long.

My OS X dashboard has a week long weather forecast on it, a Current movie list, a Roku widget to control my Roku, and SSID list so I can quickly scan available wifi networks.

On my nexus tablet I have them all disabled. there is the clock. I can launch the wifi scanning app if needed.

If I need something else like weather I can always go to google and type weather location and get details.

Re:Too little too late

[brickmack]

Windows 7 was mediocre? Sure, its not as good as Linux, but its by far the best OS Microsoft has ever made

Re:Too little too late

[roc97007]

> The whole point of this update is that Windows 8 is now pretty much the same as Windows 7. The Start Menu is back, and the only other major difference is the new flat look

What are you smoking? Can I have some? That's demonstrably not true. The start button takes you back to the Metro screen, not anything remotely like the start menu, and all the hot corners and charms crap are still there. How did you miss the tens of reviews on 8.1 that covered this?

Re:Too little too late

[roc97007]

> Correct, there's no reason to downgrade to Windows 7 if you install Windows 8 plus ClassicShell.

There are many reasons. Win8 starts out ugly, and then the more you dig into it the more annoying it becomes.

Rather, there is no reason to "upgrade" to Windows 8 plus any free (and not corporate supported) addon, if you're already using Windows 7.

Re:Too little too late

[jones_supa]

It is a big deal if you have to replace a core component of an OS with a third party solution to make it usable.

Re:Too little too late

[brickmack]

You can change it if you have admin rights. But Windows is mostly used by businesses still, which dont let their users control anything. Also, Windows isnt a cheap operating system. If Im gonna pay for something, it better be useable. When I use Linux, I expect it to be basically unuseable out of the box and need a lot of changes to get it working, but thats ok because I didnt pay for it

Re:Too little too late

[roc97007]

Windows 7 was mediocre? Sure, its not as good as Linux, but its by far the best OS Microsoft has ever made

I think what he means is that 7 was only an incremental improvement over XP. I upgraded to 7 for the superior memory management (and went to 64 bit at the same time so I could install more than 4 gigs) but in day to day usage, it's not much different from XP, and some of the differences (like going full screen if your pointer gets near the top, and the pointless rearrangement of the control panel) are annoying.

Re:Too little too late

[Man On Pink Corner]

That's true, too -- there is no reason for anyone to upgrade from 7 to 8. There was no good reason for Microsoft to produce Windows 8 to begin with. But most people who are still running versions prior to 7 can safely upgrade to 8 plus ClassicShell or one of the other Start menu replacements.

ClassicShell is nice for those of us who never liked the Start menu in 7. It has an amazing array of customization options.

Re:Too little too late

[J. J. Ramsey]

Why are you so adamantly frenetic over something you could fix easily yourself, when that's torn down, the response is about an administratively locked down machine ...

Guess where I use Windows? At work, on an administratively locked down machine.

Re:Too little too late

[roc97007]

Go ahead fix it at work you dont have admin.

Oooh, good point. But when all is said and done, it's moot, because your local admins wouldn't be stupid enough to push it out in the first place.

Re:Too little too late

[jones_supa]

On the other hand, it would not be impossible to make a third party Start Menu which is stable and deployable enough for corporate environments. If it looked like Windows 7 Start Menu, there would not be any training costs to speak of. It would just be a bit embarrassing for Microsoft... :)

Re:Too little too late

[icebike]

It is a big deal if you have to replace a core component of an OS with a third party solution to make it usable.

For some of us, that is the normal course of events.
Linux without some form of X based desktop is fine for servers, but really less than appealing in user land. We are use to trying out several totally different UIs before settling on one.

The problem is in the windows world, people are so use to the "take it or leave it" approach they never understood you could replace key parts or even the entire UI if you wanted to.

Microsoft did a good job at suppressing information about replacements or add-ons that virtually nobody knew they existed. But if you go looking for them you will find them.

This release signals the great experiment is finally OVER, and both methods will again be available. Windows 8.1 may actually survive for a while with this feature if they can Just Fix The Security Flaws they designed into it.

Re:Too little too late

[TheRealMindChild]

What if I don't know the name of what I am looking for? I just want a text editor damnit!

Re:Too little too late

[norite]

I think a lot of corporations will simply slipstream classic shell into their custom win8 installs, and save a small fortune on retraining costs and endless support calls. I installed it on my win7 machine at work. I simply couldn't stand the cramped, gimped default start menu and even worse, the removal of recent documents menu, which i use all the time (That is where the real rot started, i think).

It was also the only thing that made win8 vaguely useful when i worked with the release preview for testing purposes. It lets you disable metro entirely so you never have to interact with it, and when you've turned off all the metro crap, you have a more or less OK system.

Re:Too little too late

[roc97007]

> I think a lot of corporations will simply slipstream classic shell into their custom win8 installs, and save a small fortune on retraining costs and endless support calls.

I think a lot of corporations will simply reimage new hardware with Windows 7 and save a small fortune on retraining costs and endless support calls.

Re:Too little too late

[Anonymous Coward]

yea but only nerds who have nothing bettter to do with their time like to sit down and fuck off all night deciding what menu system they like better cause its running GTK over QT

no one else cares, hell I use linux and as long as it fucking boots into something other than a smartphone ui I dont

Re:Too little too late

[icebike]

Compared to Microsoft's other OSes it's the best they've done.

Agreed, Win7 is pretty darned good, in fact its probably the first version that is better than Windows 2000.

I suspect it will be hard for Windows 8 to dislodge win 7 from the work place, even with the 8.1 changes. Microsoft has this habit of one horrible version followed by one reasonably good version.

Unfortunately, unlike the Linux world where you can totally step away from a botched UI, windows pretty much locks you into the struggle till a totally new version comes out, or you get so fed up you nuke it and install Linux, (which gets you fired from most companies).

Re:Too little too late

[hedwards]

It is the best OS that MS has ever made, but that doesn't make it any less mediocre. Linux, OSX, PC-BSD all of them wipe the floor with Win 7, sure there are worse OSes than Win 7, even outside the stable of MS ones, but acknowledging 7 as anything more than mediocre lowers the bar a bit too much.

That being said, 7 is perfectly usable and generally competent, but it lacks anything to particularly compel me to use it. Other than the large library of software that it inherited from XP and the hardware drivers that were, again, inherited from developers that supported XP.

Re:Too little too late

[Ian A. Shill]

What is the 'minimum effort' way for a mac or linux user to access programs when they sit down in front of a win8.x system?

The 'minimum effort' way to access programs, control panel snap-ins, etc hasn't changed since Vista: press the start key on your keyboard, type the first, occasionally second (and possibly third, for lesser-used programs) characters of the name, then hit enter. If you using the hunt-around-some-menus technique you might experience a slight speed-up or slow-down when going from start menu to start screen, depending on how organised you are (or how resistant to change you are), but for anyone using windows in a sane manner the difference is nonexistant.

Re:Too little too late

[hedwards]

Had they released 7 instead of Vista, I wouldn't be saying that it's mediocre. But, the fact of the matter is that times change, OSes get better and what would have been a brilliant OS 5 years earlier, is now just mediocre because the standards are higher. The fact that it isn't $200 better than a good Linux distro says something about the product. A commercial product should be better than the free competition, if you're going to be asked to buy it.

Re:Too little too late

[msobkow]

That's kind of the whole point of why Win7 is better than Win8. It didn't screw things up just for the sake of screwing them up.

Re:Too little too late

[msobkow]

All they did is add a button icon. You always had to float the mouse in the lower left corner of the screen to bring up the start menu/screen with Win8. Big whoop.

It does not fix the fundamental problem: the use of a start window instead of a menu.

Re:Too little too late

[hedwards]

Because, unlike Linux, Windows costs me money.

Why on Earth should I buy a copy of Windows if I have to waste hours of my time trying to figure out how to make it work appropriately? They had a UI that worked well, and they threw it in the trash to give us this garbage. Same goes for that Ribbon monstrosity. Sure, it does make the most commonly used functions easily accessible, but it makes the things I also use extremely hard to find as they're hidden because they're not used every day.

And BTW, I'm not paid for this criticism. Usability is usability, there are some variations, and that's why users should be able to make minor tweaks to their set up.

Re:Too little too late

[hedwards]

They are, however, the base interface should be reasonable. One of the details that a lot of developers get wrong is that the UI and all the settings should have a sane default. Realistically you're not likely to have a set up that works perfectly for everybody, but the settings should be convenient for the most common tasks. And tasks that are hard shouldn't be made nigh impossibly by hiding settings in random places.

Re: Too little too late

[David Gould]

"Win7 is mediocre."
"Win7 is by far the best OS Microsoft has ever made."

A prime example of how two different statements can be true simultaneously.

Re:Too little too late

[justthinkit]

Dumping on ME is a sacred /. pleasure. In reality, ME was little different from 98 Second Edition (98SE) that it replaced. One bad thing for sure was that it turned indexing on and that was a performance dog. Turn it off, and you had something better than 98. For one thing it had better USB support.
.

The main "ME flaw" wasn't anything to do with ME (or Wn9x). It was that 9x/ME was based on the old "load this huge OS on top of DOS" architecture. Win NT/Win2K/XP was the future and so when ME came out it was stillborn. Also, 9x/ME had the old Wn3x limitations (slightly improved) regarding system resources. Bottom line was that you couldn't run, say, 2 MS Office apps at once and have a stable system.

I switched to XP when I couldn't multi-task any more with 98SE. I needed to have 3 or 4 "big" apps running at once and didn't feel like rebooting every hour.

So ME was more a victim of bad timing than anything else.

Re:Too little too late

[jones_supa]

If you want to modify system settings windows key+x or right clicking the bottom left or start button if you are on 8.1 will give you a menu that blows away at 7 let you immediately access.

The Win+X menu is a completely unelegant hack. It's looks like some quick development phase test menu. I don't know why it's even still there.

Re:Too little too late

[jones_supa]

Yeah. I think people resort to typing program names as it's so clunky to find the programs using mouse in the Start Screen.

Re:Too little too late

[jones_supa]

While this is true, I've never found it an issue. If I need the Control Panel, I just hit the windows key and type "cont" and select it. Is it more work than the old start menu? Yes and no; it requires more key presses, but on the other hand, it doesn't require use of the mouse.

It forces you to move hands back and forth between keyboard and mouse. After opening it, you would probably operate Control Panel with mouse anyway. In Windows 7, Control Panel can be directly launched with one click after opening the Start Menu.

Re:Too little too late

[Teresita]

Microsoft: removing features and calling it an upgrade.

Another name for Microsoft removing features is debugging.

Re:Too little too late

[Osgeld]

they changed to a more NT like driver model and had it mushed in with the 9x model, as long as you were using all of one it was perfectly fine (and I liked it better)

problem was, it wasnt a very well known fact, so you go install sound card software, its got the old driver, everything else was new and bluescreens galore

course most of the computer genius's here never bothered getting the latest drivers for their hardware and bitch and whine about it constantly nearly 15 years after the fact

Re:Too little too late

[0123456]

You do know about RIGHT-CLICKING in the lower-left corner (or on the new start button in 8.1), right? Windows-X brings up the same power-users menu.

How the fsck is my grandmother supposed to figure that out?

I had the misfortune to use a Windows 8 machine a few days ago and it's a completely uninuititive piece of crap. I didn't realise just how badly the lack of a start menu hurt the OS until I had to try to run a program from the desktop. If I didn't know I could press the Windows key I'd have been completely stumped, and, even then, I had to give up on scrolling through a crazy number of worthless Metro apps to try to find the desktop app I was looking for.

How did this POS actually get shipped?

Re:Too little too late

[Billly Gates]

No, no and no.

To all the Microsoft Shills who insist on listing 100 different windows key combinations to replicate what was available from the old start menu, or if you are going to advise me to start typing in program names to launch programs on my mouse operated graphical user interface:

YOU ARE FUCKING WRONG, AND STUPID IN THE HEAD.

Have you even tried it?

Mouse really does suck. Ask any Unix geek here on slashdot?

FYI I hate Metro and I am on Windows 7 right now. When I first got Vista I hated it until my professor told me that I had instant search with the Windows key and that with the ribbons in Office it made keyboard shortcuts even nicer.I gave it just 1 week and from there decided I would either put XP back on my laptop or stick with the slow Vista.

I had 100+ files from work and all my classes. Many for my finance class had a word document and excel spreadsheets. Now I could use both and keeping my word document open with instant search!

I can't use XP anymore or Linux with Beagle. It is just so intollerable and do not give me the mouse is what it is designed for. Do you use Google? Same concept.

I hit Windows Key mar (for Marsh Project)and boom 4 excel files popped up with inventory forcecasting and basic data. I hit tab and enter DONE.

Go try it right now? If you use MacOSX or Linux open your VM with Windows 7 and hit the Windows key and type something from 2 years ago? Type WOR and enter and you are in word. After 1 week of this you will swear when you go to an XP box as it will seem quite dated.

If you have lots of files this is a life saver rather than fucking around My Documents in a million different folders and opening and closing files to find that rare gem. I rarely even use the startmenu anymore on Windows as I am so reliant on this feature. Metro may suck for the desktop, but that doesn't mean instant search for Vista/Windows 7 does as it was the number #1 reason to upgrade from XP besides security improvements.

Re:Too little too late

[Cederic]

No, the point here is that the OS is highly configurable and you're using a setup that's been configured to prevent you doing something you feel is your inalienable right.

Try bitching at the management at your employer, instead of blaming the perfectly capable software that they don't trust you to use.

Re:Too little too late

[Billly Gates]

Windows 7 is a decent OS and in my opinion the best OS MS has ever produced.

It does lack some gui enchancements that MacOSX has and its security improvements like kernel level sandboxing where any app including Firefox and Chrome can use make it nice plus it has ASLR (Linux still does not have this), DEP for all services, and other enchancements make it MUCH more secure than XP.

Instant search, areo peak, and aero snap are nice too. I like it, but that is just me.

Re:Too little too late

[Cederic]

Sounds like you've never worked at a major corporation - especially not one that handles sensitive data.

Re:Too little too late

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows has Aero snap, Aero peak, homegroup for setting up small business and home file servers and printers, and of course instant search which is a big productivity booster.

Security the changes are enormous! ASLR, DEP for everything, the removal of administrator (an admin is just a regular user with a token to call the real admin to do something), kernel level sandboxing, a real version of IE after a Windows update that is HTML 5 compliant and runs with ahrdware acceleration for everything unlike Firefox and Chrome which are still partial, and many other things.

Windows 7 is a big upgrade much like Windows 3.11 to Windows 95 was more than a minor upgrade with eye candy.

Re:Too little too late

[Billly Gates]

Yeah. I think people resort to typing program names as it's so clunky to find the programs using mouse in the Start Screen.

Give it a shot? I can open 5 applications or files before you can open one with a mouse. Type Windows Key and the name of something in a file you had open? Intellsense will autocomplete and it is open very fast. It is amazingly efficient and not clunky.

The mouse too me is too clunky too practical for real business use and its a real productivity killer. Especially for people like Admin assistants who get strange requests for pictures of that party back in 2011 and what was the last name with that guy we had a sales meeting last year etc? Instant search indexes tags from subjects and metadata in each file like emails, pictures, file names, etc.

  After a week getting used to this it will feel natural. You can even open tasks and subjects of email in Outlook with this feature like my example with the admin assistant.

This was what Longhorn was supposed to be with WinFS and instant search is the only remaining legacy of that left in Windows 7 today. Windows 8 might not implement in a friendly way, but it is nice and to me an essential feature.

Re:Too little too late

[antdude]

Vista SP2 is way better than Windows 8 on a non-touch screen computer IMO. Better than Windows Me and 9x.

Re:Too little too late

[vlueboy]

I'm afraid you missed the larger point. This is NOT a setting and cannot just silently be sent out on a whim to your enterprise image like you can send "Hide the shut down button"

Getting the old behavior back requires
+ researching a list of untrusted third party programs with potential licenses and costs
+ confirming they don't cause incompatibilities
+ getting approved by your apathetic managers
Not all software can be packaged and distributed as self-installing MSIs, especially if they do shell modifications. Miming a menu whose code was NEVER checked into windows 8 counts as such a risky endeavor. So this naturally leads to:
Then you have to go back and rebuild various default images with it and test again.

Now, all of this is moot when you're not in an enterprise. The real annoyance we're being trolled with is that admin access or not, there are thousands of computers out there that you will have to sit at. How many of them is it practical to update when they belong to our friends, kids, girlfriends, coworkers, relatives, managers? what about people who barely trust us to sit at their computer and want us off their desk with as few clicks as possible? It's a losing battle. Just 2 years ago, Mozilla removed the File menu from Firefox, threw out the status bar, merged the Stop and Reload buttons and put the tabs on top. This has NOT all come out at once, so you need to track down a myriad of fix packs and move them as you migrate machines and visit other friends whose computers you use. The challenge is this: find people you visit who installed extensions to fix every one of those throughout all their machines, partitions and login profiles. The point is that we lose in the long run, even if it's not a problem to make the change on a single OS

Re:Too little too late

[Mashiki]

There's already one, it's called Start8 and it's done by Stardock and has corporate deployment support.

Re:Too little too late

[jones_supa]

There you go.

Re:Too little too late

[Cinder6]

Fair enough, but it can be accomplished with just as few clicks in Windows 8: bring up the right-side menu by moving the cursor to one of the corners, click Settings, and then Control Panel. Considering I forgot this method even existed before now, there's a valid argument there that Windows 8 does a poor job of exposing the interface.

Re:Too little too late

[Billly Gates]

Windows key ufs or windows key disk

Re:Too little too late

[qzzpjs]

Last time I tried typing the name for something in the instant search, I started running an uninstall program. Much safer to use the mouse to select.

Re:Too little too late

[Man On Pink Corner]

Oh, I get it, it's like a game.

Windows key zork
You are standing in a large server room on the 69th floor of the FrobozzCo building, next to a rack.

>examine rack
The rack contains various servers, patch panels, and cable looms. On a shelf nearby is a Windows 8 laptop and a pipe wrench.

>check email
With what?

>laptop
You'll have to open it first!

>open laptop, then check email
I don't know the word "email."

>you did a minute ago, dumbass
I don't know the word "dumbass."

>open laptop. press windows key. type 'email'
A list of programs whose names contain 'email' appears. However, the list is empty.

>open window
Perhaps you missed the memo. Given the tragic and (more important) costly events following the last round of layoffs, FrobozzCo management has decreed that the windows in the server room must remain locked at all times.

>get pipe wrench
Taken.

>break window
What do you want to break the window with?

>wrench
CRASH! A shower of heavy plate glass fragments cascades into the parking lot below. Somewhere in the distance, an alarm begins to sound.

>throw Windows 8 laptop out window
THUD! A near miss on your boss's new Porsche. Using passages unknown to you, a security team rushes to its defense.

* * * YOU ARE FIRED * * *

Your score is 0 out of 400 possible points. This gives you the rank of Welfare Recipient. Play again? Y/N

Re: Too little too late

[budgenator]

Actually windows 8 start screen is a lot like using file manager in windows 3.1

Re:Too little too late

[0123456]

If you need a video to explain how to use your GUI... it's a fscking awful GUI.

Seriously, just admit that it's a disaster, and move on. If Microsoft don't do that, they'll be selling themselves at a cut price to Google or Apple in a few years.

Re:Too little too late

[Billly Gates]

Me included.

My computer's ATi 5750 which is not too old doesn't work properly with DirectX 11.1 and crashes and ATI wont make drivers for it anymore as they only care about hardware less than 2 years old now to save money!

Second, I am working on a project at home where I need virtual machines with hostnames so I can type in the name of the servers in an url in all 3 browsers. I can't do this in Windows 8 as it will ignore my custom HOSTS file.

I wont hardcode IP addresses before I release it onto the net for obvious dumb reasons. This hurts it being adopted by web developers.

I did upgrade my computer to an ATi 7850 last month so the driver issue should be fixed, but my computer was designed and QAd with Windows 7. What else will it break? Also, with updates happening every year how do I know Windows 8.3 in 2015 wont break my computer again if I upgraded to Windows 8?

Windows 8!= Windows 7 driver compatible but pretty close. Unlike Windows 7 which could run on a Vista system it is not apples to apples with changes in the kernel. Yes I agree with Roc it is butt ugly too! Maybe I hate change which I criticize XP users over, but even with a new start menu the control panels and many apps are now applets designed for Metro. It is a hack rather than a tool with Windows 8.1 as more desktop settings are METRO only.

I will only upgrade when this machine dies. It works so why change? Windows 7 is a good release and I would rather stick with the devil I know where its weaknesses is then risk change for new issues like metro and driver incompatibilities.

Re:Too little too late

[tftp]

Correct, there's no reason to downgrade to Windows 7 if you install Windows 8 plus ClassicShell.

There are reasons. For example, Xilinx tools do not work on Win8. Xilinx "is considering" adding support for that. Meanwhile if you need to have work done, trash Win8 and install Win7. The same issue of "if even one essential application doesn't work on Linux you switch to Windows" is biting Win8 here. If one mission critical application does not work, you just replace the part that is simplest to replace - and that is certainly not the multi-$K proprietary package that can make or break your business. (It's bad enough as it is.)

I also have a feeling that while Win8 is more responsive in the UI department, it is slower in the application performance area. This is visible on large applications.

I have a box with Win8 installed, and ClassicShell. The box is going to be rebuilt for hardware-related reasons. It will emerge from the rebuild as a Win7 box. Win8 is usable after a geek hacks it, but there is no reason to go through the process if you don't have to. The positives of Win8 are few and far between, not worth the pain.

Ballmer's replacement will have to revert Win8 decisions, as doubling down on a mistake will destroy MS. So we have a good chance to outlive the Win8 "dark ages". If Win9 wants to offer Metro as an option, more power to it. I wouldn't need it, but it won't hurt me either. Win7 is the most usable professional OS that MS ever made.

Re:Too little too late

[BitZtream]

I'd wager a good amount that you dick around for hours making linux 'work appropriately' as well as I've never met anyone who installed Linux who didn't dick with it endlessly.

In which case, the problem is clearly yours, regardless of OS.

Re:Too little too late

[tepples]

I have personally wiped quite a few of those new convertible tablet / laptops and replaced Win8 with Ubuntu, and every single person loved it very much after that.

Until they found out that the Windows-exclusive program they needed to use was marked as "garbage" in Wine AppDB.

Re:Too little too late

[MachineShedFred]

And for Microsoft's core customer base, 3rd party shell extensions are non-starters.

Can you say with certainty that a non-supported shell add-on is going to work properly on 60,000+ machines with an unbelievable amount of application combinations? Neither can I, or anyone else. Thus, business stays with Win7 until it isn't a issue anymore.

Re:Too little too late

[dbIII]

I suspect it will be hard for Windows 8 to dislodge XP from the workplace!

Re:Too little too late

[rex.clts]

Contrary to popular belief, your computer is still *your computer*. As long as you're not breaking licensing components or anything of that nature, you're free to do what you want.

Re:Too little too late

[Rich0]

Yup, the UI of Win7 is generally an improvement across the board (the dock-like task bar is perhaps debatable, but it is also configurable). It also has good support for 64-bit (something you could get with XP, but I'm not sure how well anything supports that). Many features are upgraded in modest ways, like the resource manager from the previous task manager.

Win8 basically is an entirely different UI with a compatibility layer of sorts, and almost none of the changes are an improvement if you're not using a tablet.

Re:Too little too late

[cgenman]

ME had major stability issues. *major*. This is definitely complaint #1 against it.
ME restricted DOS mode, as a first step towards Windows 2000. This broke a lot of stuff, including software and hardware compatibility. This is major complaint #2.
ME was supposed to be based upon NT, but they couldn't finish that version in time. So it got rushed, and all of the system builders who signed up for the NT-based ME got the DOS 98+. The original ME became XP. Hence, derision.

The UI was fine, overall. Unlike Windows 8, Windows ME's main problems were stability and compatibility, with no real reason to exist over Win 98. Windows 8, on the other hand, is just terrible, terrible UI. We have an office full of touchscreen game developers using the thing, and we couldn't figure out how to close an application. It's terrible.

Re:Too little too late

[dbIII]

This still leaves you with charms, hot corners, and sliding icons

Am I still on slashdot or is this a porn movie review site :)
Who comes up with the names of this stuff?

Re: Too little too late

[bored]

complete with the 4-bit color palette. I've been saying for a while now that windows 8 is windows 386, missing the 3,6 and extended to 64-bits...
  Complete with lack of overlapping windows/etc.

Re:Too little too late

[dbIII]

If found the same thing on XP and Win7 - programs that just would not work on those platforms until they were updated by the software developers. I've had to keep a win2k system (fucking licence dongles so no VM) because there were no updates available. The MS windows ecosystem is fragile and shambolic and it tells us more about your lack of understanding of it than anything else when you are blaming an innocent bystander that is trying to help such as wine for the situation.
The fix is to run the thing in the environment it's been developed for. Virtual machines make this less painful when you can do it. Stuff to run dotnet on other platforms make it less painful when you can do it. Wine makes it less painful but it can't do everything. Personally I'd like to see a windows platform version of wine for all the old stuff that won't run on win7 but will run on wine (eg. versions of AutoCAD from not very many years ago that run fine on XP). We need such a workaround due to the insane backwards step MS Windows took for handling libraries before dotnet (they reintroduced the versioning problems of the 1970s).

Re:Too little too late

[bored]

Discoverability, 20 years of UI/GUI research out the window. It started around the XP timeframe when someone decided it was a good idea to hide the keyboard shortcut hints if the alt key wasn't pressed. 8 is just the latest version of that, where even a computer literate person has to get out the manual (???) to discover how to close a metro app, or 3/4 of the tasks a user is going to have to do in the first 5 minutes of using the OS. Plus, tons of functionality is buried behind a really poor "search" feature. If you don't know its there or you don't know what its called its never going to get used even if its a really useful function.

Frankly, without google I often find myself lost... And I'm like the local windows guru for a number of fairly technical people.

Re:Too little too late

[dbIII]

If I didn't know I could press the Windows key I'd have been completely stumped

That's a bad sign, probably over 90% of the MS Windows users in my office act in amazement when I press the windows key to bring up a menu or the file manager. They've never needed to know since they use the mouse.

Re:Too little too late

[dbIII]

Vista wasn't particularly bad

There's still one machine with it here to remind me that it is bad. The highlight was command line voodoo and a registry hack before it could mount a network drive from a Microsoft NT server.

Re: Too little too late

[JDG1980]

Not to mention the centered title bar text. Which was done in Windows 3.1, but not Windows 95, NT, or any subsequent release until 8. So every experienced Windows user will spend a few extra fractions of a second every time we look for the window title.

Re:Too little too late

[JDG1980]

The start button takes you back to the Metro screen, not anything remotely like the start menu, and all the hot corners and charms crap are still there.

You're right about the Start button still not exhibiting correct behavior, but Windows 8.1 does permit hot corners to be disabled without needing third-party add-ons. See here for details. Also, Windows 8.1 allows booting straight into the desktop as an option, whereas Windows 8 would only boot to the Metro start screen unless you used a third-party add-on.

Hopefully Windows 9 will bring back the real Start Menu, add an option to completely hide all traces of Metro for desktop users, and bring back the much nicer Aero theme as an option. Without Ballmer, there's some hope.

Re:Too little too late

[roc97007]

Not to mention, 7 had XP compatibility mode, which worked really well and solved three or four migration issues I had. (Eventually the software in question either was upgraded to be compatible with 7, or I migrated to a different application. But for OS migration, XP compatibility was essential.) They really went out of their way to make the upgrade to 7 issue free. Turn Aero off, and it even looks like XP.

So, what the hell happened with 8? With all they had learned with Vista and 7, (the first being how not to do a release, the second how to do a successful release) why the hell would they pick the technique that did not work? That must have been an interesting board meeting.

Re:Too little too late

[spire3661]

O look, a know-nothing luser... If the corporate mission calls for a locked down PC thats what you get. My wife works from home as a Medical Recruiter, should she get all pissy with I.T. because her laptop has to comply with HIPAA regulations? When you grow up you will realize computers for work are tools, to be restricted as needed to fit the mission at hand.

Re:Too little too late

[mr_da3m0n]

You underestimate the power of support contracts. No sane OEM is going to ship an EOL'd Windows XP any time soon, and unless your workplace never cycles hardware, windows 7 should have started appearing a long while ago on your network anyways and some sort of migration strategy should be underway in the worst case scenario.

I heard the same thing about Windows NT4 _and_ Windows 2000. It's like end-of-life never happens for some people. Sure, you can probably find some business with http://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/08/25/1432209/windows-81-rtm-trickling-out-with-start-menu-and-boot-to-desktop?utm_source=slashdot&utm_medium=facebook#Windows 2000 running somewhere on a production system. That doesn't make it any less shitty.

Re: Too little too late

[roc97007]

"Win7 is mediocre."
"Win7 is by far the best OS Microsoft has ever made."

A prime example of how two different statements can be true simultaneously.

Enh. I wouldn't say that. I think what was said was that Windows 7 was an incremental improvement over Windows XP. Now, XP, as far as Windows goes, was a pretty successful, stable, useful OS. Test by, it's been with us for 13 years, and many users still don't want to part with it. 7 had some annoyances (would Microsoft PLEASE the HELL stop rearranging the control panel? PLEASE?) but is pretty decent. It even looks like the classic desktop if you turn Aero off. About like XP looks like when you turn the "fischer-price" desktop off. Hm, I'm seeing a trend here. Windows 8 might be decent if you could TURN METRO OFF. Just sayin'.

The point continues to be, Windows with 7 is probably as good as Windows is ever going to get. In the old days there were reasons to make radical changes because the current version sucked so bad, or because new types of hardware had to be supported. There is very little need for that in the desktop world anymore, and change for the sake of change is not a good sell.

Re:Too little too late

[simonbp]

It's *meant* to hold whatever I damn well want it to hold. Nothing more, nothing less. Anyone who says otherwise is a fascist pig.

Come the revolution, "User Interface Designers" will first against the wall, I tell you...

Re:Too little too late

[dbIII]

No, you've misunderstood how much old hardware is out there and how much new stuff got XP installed on it because that was what people were used to even after the launch of win7. I'm pretty sure I was still doing XP installations in 2011 and there is still new hardware coming out with XP drivers.

Re:Too little too late

[UziBeatle]

Oh my, Mr. Balmer. You DO need that vacation soon, don't you?

  Maybe you should consider speeding up that retirement date.
  Relax in that hot tub more often.

Re:Too little too late

[Billly Gates]

Yep I do not know what I am talking about at all.

Re:Too little too late

[UltraZelda64]

For some of us, that is the normal course of events.
Linux without some form of X based desktop is fine for servers, but really less than appealing in user land. We are use to trying out several totally different UIs before settling on one.

X comes set up and ready to go in any "desktop" distribution, complete with a pre-selected desktop environment and set of applications, so what are you talking about? If that one desktop that comes with the system pre-configured does the job as expected, then unless you want to explore, there is absolutely no need to try out any others. In Windows, you either like what you've been given after paying loads of $$$--or else. Just because you have the choice to try alternatives in Linux, doesn't mean that you *have* to evaluate all the others. The point of a distribution is to put together a pack software that is deemed to be useful and of good quality... the distribution maintainers have done the work for you, in many cases. Whether you agree with their selections or not, that's a different topic.

Re:Too little too late

[icebike]

there is absolutely no need to try out any others.

Such a small little world you live in...

Re:Too little too late

[roc97007]

That's.... actually... promising.

Re:Too little too late

[roc97007]

Except you were talking about Classic Shell, claiming that it didn't do certain things when, in fact, it does.

Nice try at moving the goalpost though.

I certainly was not. I was talking about Windows 8.1, which, if you scroll back to the top, is the topic of this thread.

Re:Too little too late

[roc97007]

I'm not sure that I completely agree. Surely, the necessity of "do you really want to do this" "yes""do you really want to do this" "yes" "do you really want to do this" "yes""do you really want to do this" "yes" "do you really want to do this" "yes" throughout the day was irritating, but things like network file transfers that should have taken minutes taking hours is what really killed it in our environment. I mean, Win7 still says "you need admin access to do this" and it's not that much of a deal.

Re:Too little too late

[gsslay]

The difference is that Windows 8 is an end-user consumer product that people have parted actually money for. The reasonable expectation is that is should work as is. Their home user base doesn't want to spend time customizing, they just want it to work. Their corporate user base want something that is stable, standard and easy to maintain. Core dependency on a third party add-on that may break with the next security patch, written by a company that may vanish, (however unlikely both scenarios may be) is not good.

But Microsoft aren't completely stupid. They're killing off the start menu for a reason, not just to annoy people. That reason is almost certainly to do with Microsoft's desire to push people towards Metro and, through that, their App Market. They want the same kind of cash cow that Apple has. This is all sound policy for Microsoft, but not for their users. They just need to pull it off without everyone leaving the Windows franchise. It would take a whole lot for Microsoft to mess this up, but it's still a possibility.

Re:Too little too late

[Rich0]

With all they had learned with Vista and 7, (the first being how not to do a release, the second how to do a successful release) why the hell would they pick the technique that did not work?

Executives are not happy with merely making boatloads of money. You need to have GROWTH. Desktop operating systems are a mature market and MS already has 90% market share. If you want to grow by 10% annually you need something new

So, the execs just said, "hey, those tablet things are doing well - maybe we should just make Windows work like that." If they did that for their tablet OS they'd be fine, but they wanted to try to leverage their desktop market share so they turned their desktop OS into a tablet OS because it served their growth needs.

In doing so they're going to end up in a bloodbath by sacrificing their stable revenue sources in what amounts to a gamble. There isn't much downside for the execs though. If the company booms they get lots of money, if the company crashes they get paid the same. So, why not do something exciting? Besides, most of the execs are only sort-of in it for the money - they all have enough to retire at anytime so they have lots of incentive to take risks and make things interesting.

Re:Too little too late

[icebike]

What you call sound policy, the market, and finally Microsoft, has determined was a monumental blunder.

The start bar is coming back, and Metro is going to be less of a demand and more of a choice.

Re:Too little too late

[Cro Magnon]

Vista's UAC was one problem, and it was hard to avoid, though frankly I think MS should have done more to encourage the multi-user model when XP came out, and maybe Vista wouldn't have been such a PITA.

A bigger problem, IMO, was MS letting vendors claim their computers were "Vista ready" when they weren't. I've never tried to run Vista on the 512M boxes that were shipping with "vista-ready" labels, but I DID run it on a 1GB box, and it wasn't good. I shudder to think of what it was with half that RAM.

Re:Too little too late

[DeathToThePatriarchy]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! You have clearly never run security apps (AV, IPS) on user systems or, for that matter, more than 1K user systems. There are constant departmental, special user, and monitoring apps that need to be added and configured. It seems the only thing constant about core builds is that they will need to be modified for business reasons. Did I mention HAHAHAHA!

Re: Too little too late

[KevReedUK]

Removal of recent documents, you say? I run Win 7 pro x64 and have a recent documents menu under start. Did you try turning it back on under properties -> customise? It was an option for me, so I used it. Did you not look, or did you see it and decide that if it's not turned on by default, that you have a free pass to rag on Microsoft about it?

Re:Too little too late

[UltraZelda64]

Such a small little world you live in...

Way to go--you just ignored the first 2/3 of the sentence and commented only on the very last 1/3 or so of it--never mind the rest of the paragraph that it is a part of. Combine the two parts to read the sentence as a whole as it was intended, and if you comprehend it correctly, you'd realize that I was saying there is "absolutely no need to try out any others"... if what you have works well and does what you want to begin with. And in many cases and for many people, it just might. But as the rest of the paragraph hints at, it might or might not.

For practice, here was the original, complete sentence, emphasis added:

If that one desktop that comes with the system pre-configured does the job as expected, then unless you want to explore, there is absolutely no need to try out any others.

Re:Too little too late

[dave.haku]

I never undrstood why, at least for technical people, this was such a big issue. Really, it isn't that different from what used to be. It's been years since I only use start menu for typing what I'm looking for... if ever, and that's exactly what I keep doing with Windows 8. If anything, I find it to be faster, Windows 7 sometimes lags for long before showing up results, Windows 8 almost always shows results immediately (Sure, MS could have fixed the performance issue without changing the looks, but then again, I don't think that's such a big deal). On the other hand I think there are bigger issues to be talking about - both positive and negative. Like start-up time, I find it dazzling that now I have a computer ready to work in like 10 seconds, where before I got to get a coffee before the computer was usable... But NOOOO people are really annoyed about the stupid start button, go figure. And what about privacy issues with the new Windows 8.1 search? I know it has been talked about, but why are people still complaining about the stupid start button? I believe that every start button discussion should be turned into the privacy issue of Windows search.

Re:Too little too late

[mcgrew]

I don't disagree with that. Windows has lagged behind Linux in features and useability for years, at least since 2002 when I became acquainted with Mandrake.

Re:Too little too late

[dywolf]

Vista's UAC asking me if i really Really REALLY want to delete that file, or really Really REALLY want to copy that file, or really Really REALLY want to open that file, really Really REALLY DOUBLEDOGREALLY want to open the Control Panel to turn that annoying little SOB off had nothing to do with the priviledges of applications I was trying to run.

Re:Too little too late

[Volshebnyj Molotok]

A 'sane manner' is an objective thing, and totally dependent upon the user. A sane manner for one might be completely useless to another. Don't even try to say that your method is the only sane one, because there are about as many sane manners of using the Windows UI as there are Windows users.

Re:Too little too late

[Volshebnyj Molotok]

Agreed. And in Win7, I put my most commonly used apps in the first 10 spots on my taskbar. Win+1-0 is my first order of business after logging in.

Re:Too little too late

[icebike]

If something works well and does what you want, and you follow your own advice and look no further, how would you ever know about something that worked better and does even more than you THOUGHT you wanted?

With any competent distro (I.E. Not ubuntu) you can have Gnome and KDE, (and a couple others that have been gaining in power quietly). All they cost is a little disk space, (very little) and your reward might be discovering a whole new world that you THOUGHT you didn't need.

So go ahead, and be satisfied with what you have if you want, but most Linux users like the choice.

There was never a reason for you to weigh in saying in strong language that there is "absolutely no need to try others" when choice is the WHOLE point of linux in the first place.

Re:Too little too late

[Volshebnyj Molotok]

Oh for some mod points to give here! LOL

Re:Too little too late

[UltraZelda64]

If something works well and does what you want, and you follow your own advice and look no further, how would you ever know about something that worked better and does even more than you THOUGHT you wanted?

You wouldn't, but if it works, it works. That's the point. The masses just want something to work, and if it does then they're happy.

Here's something to try. Go ask all the Windows users you know if they ever bothered to even look outside of their comfort zone--Windows--and try something else. You might get a few "I tried a friend's Mac" or "I heard of it" or similar answers, but for the most part people will probably give you a blank stare. Why? Being traditionally a monopoly on PCs, everyone knows and has used it, and they think it works "well enough" and just don't know (or care) that there are alternatives. There may be something better than Windows, but most people don't care, because they "know" Windows and think they would be completely lost with something else.

There was never a reason for you to weigh in saying in strong language that there is "absolutely no need to try others" when choice is the WHOLE point of linux in the first place.

And that is the great thing about Linux: if you want to, you can play around with every distribution and window manager/desktop environment you can imagine. But I wasn't talking about those kinds of people... hell, I am one of them myself, so yes, I was even excluding myself. I'm talking more reality here, typical clueless user who just wants everything to work without having to do anything, not advanced users and computer enthusiasts.

Re:Too little too late

[Man On Pink Corner]

Interesting, I didn't know that. Neither ISE nor Vivado will run on Win8? Why not?

Re:Too little too late

[tftp]

I tried ISE 14.6 (the latest for today) and got some JRE error. I haven't tried Vivado on Win8. Both work fine on Win7. Perhaps JRE bug can be fixed by shamanic dances with a tamburine, shaking a bunch of JRE releases over the fire; but why should I do that, given that the tools are fragile enough even without my help? How badly do I need a broken netlist, or yet another crash of Impact, may it burn in Silicon Hell?

There are discussions - on Xilinx forums and in many other places - about that. The note from a moderator: "Currently, there is no road-map for Windows 8 support.." Well, they do support RHEL; maybe there is a hint in that? (I used ISE on CentOS; it worked fine.)

Re:Too little too late

[UltraZelda64]

Also, Windows isnt a cheap operating system. If Im gonna pay for something, it better be useable. When I use Linux, I expect it to be basically unuseable out of the box and need a lot of changes to get it working, but thats ok because I didnt pay for it

You have some incredibly low expectations. When I use Linux, I am consistently amazed at how well everything works right from the start, even compared to some expensive Windows operating system. What distro do you use? Gentoo? Arch? Crux? Hell, even Slackware tends to work very well right after install with very little configuration necessary, and it comes with far more functionality standard (ie. less need to screw around finding, downloading, installing programs) than any operating system Microsoft has ever put out.

Re:Too little too late

[alexo]

Can you stop complaining about Firefox already?
Oh, wait, nevermind...

Re:Too little too late

[EdZ]

Of course, you can also activate programs in the taskbar by pressing win+[number] (e.g. win+1 for the program in position 1).

Its dead Jim!

[sinij]

Start working on Windows 9, you won't redeem this one so late in the game.

Re:Its dead Jim!

[TemperedAlchemist]

Yeah I agree.

I'll keep using windows 7 in the meantime.

Re:Its dead Jim!

[chaosdivine69]

I'll be joining you on the wait train while staying with Windows 7. Windows 8 is still a bust in my opinion. Hopefully once Balmer goes once and for all, someone with some real leadership and innovation will part the seas, walk on water and pull rainbows and unicorns out of his ass...

Re:Its dead Jim!

[Anonymous Coward]

When you're done GNU/Linux is here for you to upgrade to.

Re:Its dead Jim!

[mrclisdue]

I...and pull rainbows and unicorns out of his ass...

Does that mean that these particular unicorns would be gay, since they're up his ass...and with rainbows, no less?

It just gets curiouser and curiouser.

cheers,

Re:Its dead Jim!

[sixsixtysix]

obviously, it would depend on the gender of the unicorn

Re:Its dead Jim!

[roc97007]

When you're done GNU/Linux is here for you to upgrade to.

The only reason I'm still on Windows is that the Adobe suite runs on it. Adobe, port to Linux!

Re:Its dead Jim!

[Anonymous Coward]

As I look around I discover that I have no Microsoft products in my house anymore, other than some old XP Pro (SP3 baby!) disks (which I plan to use in a pinch if I have to). Honestly I'd like to _see_ Windows 9, but probably just to have it's flaws in my arsenal of MS jokes/complaints. In the past, when Microsoft unveils it's new products, it's similar to my 5-yo daughter dressing herself. Things are on, but in the wrong place, sorta matches, but looks soo cute.

Re:Its dead Jim!

[Anonymous Coward]

On the contrary, there is productivity, development, and media production software out there. You just have to look further than adobe/microsoft/autodesk.com. I know it's tough for you, being of the picosecond attention span generation, but it is possible. Give it a try someday.

Re:Its dead Jim!

[hedwards]

I have XP running in a Virtualbox for that, and probably in the near future, I'll have my copy of 7 running in a VM.

And yeah, Adobe applications have always been the main reason to stay with MS. Fortunately, you now have a properly functioning flash plug in, but I have yet to get Adobe Digital Editions to work on Linux.

Re:Its dead Jim!

[Anonymous Coward]

i have given it a try. wifi didn't work, the video driver kept getting lost between reboots and had to be reinstalled every boot and the window manager kept crashing. top that off with second rate "me-too" software that is garbage compared to the real deals and it ended up being utterly worthless. Let me know when I can directly and flawlessly run media composer, pro tools, premier pro, vegas pro, zbrush, 3ds max, vue, terragen, photoshop, illustrator, acdsee pro, cubase, nuendo, reason and audition on linux.

Re:Its dead Jim!

[mcgrew]

Thankfully I won't have to use W8 or W9. Work has been on XP for a decade and just replaced all our computers with W7 boxes, and I retire next year.

I might have to put up with W9 long enough to reformat the drive and install Linux if I buy a new computer. I won't buy a computer that won't run Linux; "Trusted Computing" is not trustworthy.

Re:Its dead Jim!

[cgenman]

Fortunately, Adobe is making themselves obsolete, just like Windows 8.

Re:Its dead Jim!

[Merk42]

Good thing that makes other software to correctly open PSDs magically appear. Oh wait no.

...and before you say GIMP, I said "correctly" open, it stil has issues with rasterizing fonts and some filters.

Still missing an option..

[zuralin]

How about an option to disable Metro completely? Opening the same jpeg in Paint versus Metro takes about 1/10th the time. Metro is not an improvement!

Re:Still missing an option..

[Teresita]

Opening the same jpeg in Paint versus Metro takes about 1/10th the time.

Yeah, but all you can do in Paint is draw Hitler mustaches on supermodels and junk.

Re:Still missing an option..

[Anonymous Coward]

Just stop using Metro apps and treat the Start Screen like a Start Menu. Not hard to do.

Re:Still missing an option..

[jfdavis668]

Sorry, but Windows 8 looks more like Windows 1 than 3.1. Windows 1 was useless, since there were no applications. Sound familiar?

Re:Still missing an option..

[Cinder6]

I know it's not exactly what you want, but you can still specify a default app for files, same as you always could.

Re:Still missing an option..

[PCM2]

I know it's not exactly what you want, but you can still specify a default app for files, same as you always could.

Actually, it's not quite the same as you always could. Unless you explicitly right-click a file and choose "Open with...", double-clicking an unregistered file type gets you a new, Metro-ized "Choose a program" menu that doesn't fit with the rest of the desktop look and feel and it requires more clicks to get the job done.

Re:Still missing an option..

[GrumpySteen]

This actually isn't redundant. Windows 2.0 introduced overlapping windows as a part of the OS and those have been present in every version up until Windows 8 and Metro. Microsoft has quite literally brought back a limitation of Windows 1.0 and is new calling it a feature.

Re:Still missing an option..

[jones_supa]

But still, the main event for Windows 8 are the Metro apps, and the capabilities of their window management is quite similar to Windows 1.0, which could even display a taskbar at the same time.

Re:Still missing an option..

[vlueboy]

Yeah, but all you can do in Paint is draw Hitler mustaches on supermodels and junk.

Haha, yes. Seriously, though MSPaint is ALL we have in corporate environments for troubleshooting and cropping images on the fly.

For MacOS users I don't recall any built-in alternative for general mustache work "and junk" ;). Sure, taking screenshots is automated through key combos for Macs, but the MacOS is missing the true magic of Paint's scribbling, trying to make circles and connect lines and triangles into fake arrows, etc.

The lobby on feature-complete Drawing tools for all OSs is sure deficient. It's an accepted fact of life how unprofessional it looks when a high-paid manager has no choice but to improvise without the correct tools, like maybe visio or photoshoop. Their troubleshooting or "the problem on this image is here" directions are done in Paint, and always look like something out of a 4chan drawing.
* And apparently FINALLY on Windows 8

Re:Still missing an option..

[rastos1]

Yeah, but all you can do in Paint is draw Hitler mustaches on supermodels and junk.

That is not Pain'ts fault. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZSW-QNs0Is

Re:Still missing an option..

[GrumpySteen]

It's funny that you called me clueless when you've not only demonstrated your own ignorance, but you've gone on to defend it.

Windows 1.0 allowed you to run applications side by side. What it didn't allow was overlapping windows, just like metro applications. Try overlapping a metro application with any other window. If you accomplish that, then you'll have a valid argument.

Overlapping a metro application window with another window is impossible, of course, so you can't do that and your argument is invalid. I suspect you realize that and you're desperately trying to pretend that I said that non-metro apps couldn't overlap, but of course that's a strawman argument since I said nothing of the sort. I was clearly speaking about the limitations in the metro interface.

At least you had enough sense to post as AC so that you can't easily be linked to the idiocy you presented here.

Re:Still missing an option..

[GrumpySteen]

And yet I was specifically speaking about Metro, which is not Desktop Mode.

Thanks for the completely pointless attempt to counter my statements about Metro with completely irrelevant statements about Desktop Mode. Borrowing on your logic, I have a banana in my lunchbox, therefore you must be wrong!

Re:Still missing an option..

[GrumpySteen]

Metro apps can run side by side, so multitasking still exists which makes your argument rather irrelevant unless you can find a study that shows that overlapping windows somehow cause a larger reduction in productivity than non-overlapping windows.

Have fun searching for that, because I'm pretty sure nothing of the sort exists. There just isn't any significant difference in the mental impact of switching your attention between overlapping windows and switching it between side-by-side windows.

Re:Still missing an option..

[Cro Magnon]

I'm always hearing about the Start Menu, but really, this full-screen crap bothers me more than the absence of the Start Menu ever did. I can't even see the damn time on my computer (with Metro) unless I switch to a Clock app (which is also full-screen :-P )

Jim, he's dead.

[flyingfsck]

Sometimes, the doctor turned the words around and with Windows, adding a start button that turns the desktop around back to the Metro zombie screen isn't going to help.

Re:Jim, he's dead.

[AmiMoJo]

There is a real start menu available as an option too now. It's exactly the same as the Windows 7 one as far as I can tell.

TPM

[Anonymous Coward]

Ahh... Windows 8.1. The one requiring a "Trusted Computing" TPM in the PC to get a Window certification.

Thanks Microsoft - I really want a hardware dongle in the machine to enforce DRM and ensure that I never really own the machine as I don't have the keys to it. Cheers.

P.S. How's that arrangement with the NSA coming BTW?

Re:TPM

[Anonymous Coward]

Ahh... Windows 8.1. The one requiring a "Trusted Computing" TPM in the PC to get a Window certification.

Thanks Microsoft - I really want a hardware dongle in the machine to enforce DRM and ensure that I never really own the machine as I don't have the keys to it. Cheers.

P.S. How's that arrangement with the NSA coming BTW?

Windows 8.1 does not in any way require a TPM chip. You can verify this yourself by downloading the leaked RTM build (or think about all the PCs out there it wouldn't work on).

Microsoft has announced that 18 months from now, new systems that want to advertise being certified should have TPM2.0. It isn't really related to Windows 8.1 at all (and at the time there is likely Windows 8.2 that is the current version).

We can criticize Microsoft for announcing such a certification requirement coming up in the future, but as a tech site we should be precise about what it is and isn't.

Also, I too support criticizing Microsoft for their relationship with NSA, but it is interesting how many shy away from recognizing Google, Apple and others having the exact same relationship.

Re:TPM

[Anonymous Coward]

look what you did, you said 'dongle'.. now the femitards are gonna get all hot'n'offended

Re:TPM

[vlueboy]

Also, I too support criticizing Microsoft for their relationship with NSA, but it is interesting how many shy away from recognizing Google, Apple and others having the exact same relationship.

Not the same relationship, because you can bet impact projections mean different tax dollar amounts, and different deal sweeteners. The official Google Talk client targets Windows first
MacOS has Facetime and iChat. Sure, you can own those separately, but supposing we had to give out a sardonic award for the largest breach^W accomplishment, you wouldn't go to the alternative guys first.

They are all targets, but guess which company started it all, thanks to owning the fattest install base for the longest number of months? Boom! 80+ percent userbase in a single compromise op. Want ~100%? the NSA can follow up on that during their spare time while the majority of the data pours in.
The same company bought Skype just to add NSA backdoors. It was not enough to just scoop up old users, so the NSA forced it as a replacement to the Windows Messenger client back in April of this year. Also juicy, considering how Skype has Native Windows, Linux and OSX clients. That is thinking big, my friend.

Re:TPM

[fast turtle]

Ah! TPM 2.0 - specifications absolutely mandate a TPM chip onboard. You Loose.

Propaganda

[tuppe666]

That is not a start menu. That is a start screen. Who do they think is falling for this nonsense. The reality is, it was never about the start button. It was about taking a usable productive and powerful desktop environment using precision pointing and fast text input, and swapping it out for the weakest of the tablet OS's. In the hope in creating what they call an ecosystem, and moving the computer into an locked down electronic device running Micro$oft Store (The $ stands for money grabbing Monopolist), Rather than compete on price that 70% gross margins still too thin.

The real question is is it iOS, Android, Chrome or GNU/Linux

Re:Propaganda

[Anonymous Coward]

I've never had any problems with Flash on Linux, so I don't really know what you're talking about there. As for gaming, the market's been picking up slowly but surely for that; in the past year there've been great strides in gaming on Linux thanks to the efforts of the Humble Bundles and Steam being ported (rather poorly at first) to Linux. I'm not saying that Linux is completely gaming-ready now, but they're definitely trying now.

However, we're still far from the fabled "Year of the Linux Desktop". For example, playing a video or MP3 file is still a hassle on non-Ubuntu systems, you still need the command line to get some of the more difficult programs to work, etc.

Re:Propaganda

[roc97007]

And thus, a new low is reached for Microsoft shills.

Re:Propaganda

[jones_supa]

However, we're still far from the fabled "Year of the Linux Desktop". For example, playing a video or MP3 file is still a hassle on non-Ubuntu systems, you still need the command line to get some of the more difficult programs to work, etc.

We should simply use Ubuntu. While some people here hate Unity or Mr. Shuttleworth, Ubuntu is the most realistic option to make the Year of Linux Desktop. It is easy to use, stuff works, and it has strong support behind it. You can run pretty much all of your open source software on it, and it is officially supported by Steam.

Re:Propaganda

[Truekaiser]

All one has to do with Gentoo to get things to play mp3 out of the box is add 'mp3' to the use flags list.

Re:Propaganda

[mcgrew]

I've never had any problems with Flash on Linux, so I don't really know what you're talking about there.

He's talking about authoring tools, not consumption tools.

However, we're still far from the fabled "Year of the Linux Desktop". For example, playing a video or MP3 file is still a hassle on non-Ubuntu systems, you still need the command line to get some of the more difficult programs to work, etc.

Utter bullshit. Mandrake was capable of doing anything you needed except running a server from the desktop over ten years ago. The only time I'm at a command line is if I've forgotten the root password, or running various utilities from USB drive to work on Windows computers (like when they don't remember their XP password).

Yeah, if you're running a server OS like Red Hat you're going to have to use a command line. DUH!

Ten years ago I was at the command line a lot, but from choice rather than necessity -- I wanted to learn the system.

Re:Propaganda

[jimbo]

Problem is they're constantly redoing everything so it never get the time to mature.

Ten years ago in SuSE I could install my 3rd party TrueType fonts by clicking on the file and follow the KDE font viewers directions. Yesterday on Ubuntu I had to google how and use the command line for installing my extra (no, not the Microsoft) fonts.

I installed Cryptkeeper from the Ubuntu repository but Ubuntu doesn't allow the GUI to show up in the panel (according to a Google search, when it didn't work).

Three times today, while working in Gimp, I got a "Compiz has crashed, wanna send report?" message.

I'm not complaining, I know how to deal with all this. I guess what I'm saying is that the currently "best known" Desktop distribution is just not a mature GUI environment.

Re:Propaganda

[jones_supa]

Ten years ago in SuSE I could install my 3rd party TrueType fonts by clicking on the file and follow the KDE font viewers directions. Yesterday on Ubuntu I had to google how and use the command line for installing my extra (no, not the Microsoft) fonts.

What? You can install TrueType fonts in Ubuntu by double-clicking them, a font viewer opens and you click the "Install" button in the top-right corner. That's all you have to do.

Three times today, while working in Gimp, I got a "Compiz has crashed, wanna send report?" message.

Agree completely. There are clearly some problems in Compiz quality assurance.

Re:Propaganda

[0123456]

Wow, you're right. It's so hard to put a Linux CD in the drive, boot up and click 'Install'.

Maybe you should try a distro that's less than twenty years old.

Re:Propaganda

[cgenman]

Kubuntu is Ubuntu without that bad Unity interface.
Lubuntu is a marvelous system for really old and crappy hardware. This old Intel Centrino absolutely shines with Lubuntu.

Both come highly recommended.

Start BUTTON minus Start MENU = FAIL (again)

[gestalt_n_pepper]

Bottom line? Don't make me learn new interface stuff. I hate it. If it takes a non-zero amount of time for me to think about it, it's not a value, add; it's a value-subtract.

FYI, this goes for ALL software AND programming languages. Adding a few things incrementally to use new features is fine. Changing interfaces or behaviors wholesale isn't.

This should fall into the "common sense" category - something the software industry isn't exactly famous for being able to perceive or implement.

Disclaimer: I write software for a living. Please don't hate me.

Re:Start BUTTON minus Start MENU = FAIL (again)

[MpVpRb]

Bottom line? Don't make me learn new interface stuff. I hate it

So does my wife, and my brother

They are both smart people, but don't have the time or passion to devote hours to learning all the details about their computers. They have a job to do, and want to do it quickly

I am somewhat in the middle. I like the Office Ribbon. It seems like a real improvement

But, changes based on "fashion" suck. I don't want my UI to look "fresh and new", I want it to work well, and be efficient to use for a power user

Re:Start BUTTON minus Start MENU = FAIL (again)

[Isaac Remuant]

"programming languages"? I don't understand what you mean, unless you're talking about IDEs.

Re:Start BUTTON minus Start MENU = FAIL (again)

[kbrannen]

Bottom line? Don't make me learn new interface stuff. I hate it. If it takes a non-zero amount of time for me to think about it, it's not a value, add; it's a value-subtract.

Users want the interface to stay the same and stable, other than bug fixes. MS needs to make changes to they can say they have something new for everyone to upgrade to and so they can make money. Those 2 things don't mix well.

Personally, I'm with you. Give me an XP that handles 64bit hardware well and I'd be happy ... when I have to use MS-Windows.

Misleading headline

[onyxruby]

Please rewrite headline, it is misleading. There is a world of difference between the Start "Menu" and the Start "Button". 8.1 forces you back into metro through the Start Button and doesn't resolve people issues in the slightest. Metro is still forced on you and it is still wholly unsuitable to the enterprise. While Microsoft at least listened to people about boot to desktop, they showed continued contempt for their customer base by refusing to replace the Start Menu.

Fix the headline and stop propagating Microsoft's spin, this is a band-aid on sucking chest wound and nothing more.

Re:Misleading headline

[PCM2]

Actually, the Start Button does include one benefit: you can right click it to get the system administrator's menu, which has a bunch of useful stuff on it. The same menu was available in Windows 8, but you had to know it was there because there was no icon to let you know about it, and there was no way to activate it on a touchscreen.

Re:Misleading headline

[yuhong]

And don't forget RDP too. Also, they added Shut Down/Restart to this right-click menu.

Start button != Start menu!

[roc97007]

Let's not confuse the two -- an icon in the lower left corner that takes one to the "start screen" was not what was asked for. What was asked for was an actual start menu, not a button that takes you to a page full of icons. It's extremely annoying that Microsoft would deliberately choose to misunderstand this. (They couldn't be stupid enough to think that's what we really wanted.)

Re:Start button != Start menu!

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, a start icon in the lower left is exactly what I wanted. I like the start screen, but the mouse target for launching it was way too small. 8.1 fixed that.

Re:Start button != Start menu!

[roc97007]

You really need to work on this. Saying stuff like "Actually, a start icon in the lower left is exactly what I wanted" makes no logical sense. If you were a computer-illiterate user, you might want that, but then you wouldn't be posting here. And no computer literate person would care whether there was a button to take you to the start screen, because if you had embraced the Win8 paradigm, you would have embraced the lack of conveyance and wouldn't have a problem putting the pointer over invisible hot areas in order to make things happen, and if you had not embraced the Win8 paradigm, a mere button to do the same action as the hot corner is not nearly enough. So, what you said just sounds like a feeble attempt to promote 8.1.

What you need, I think, is a less feeble attempt. That's going to need more thought than "I really like (whatever Microsoft just released)." Especially if it totally reverses one's previous assertion that "Microsoft doesn't need to do this". (The advantages of posting anonymously, so there's no tracking your previous comments.)

Missing feature enterprises waiting for....

[jkrise]

"Boot straight to XP" mode.... with the memory and disk requirements of Windows 8; better thing would've been to bundle an XP inside of Windows 8; and provide an option to Boot Straight To XP mode; there's still metric tons worth software that will run only on XP; not even Vista nor 7.

People who truly need or want the Metro stuff can boot to that junk if they want to; and they'd probably get what they deserve.

That way MS can keep legacy code and legacy depending customers happy; and still provide them a path to run so-called modern apps which are a pain in the desktop.

Re:Missing feature enterprises waiting for....

[Kjella]

I bet Microsoft is tired of supporting XP, it's been 12 years since the initial release - same year as Linux 2.4.0, which was EOL'd in 2011. Honestly, Windows 7 is the new XP - doesn't matter what crap comes before or after, it's the slam dunk obvious upgrade path with hardly any user pain. If your "enterprise" software still can't cope 4 years after release then replace that crappy vendor. Or if it's really that bad, then use a VM.

Re:Missing feature enterprises waiting for....

[cgenman]

I used to run support for a small business whose power-line hardware regulators were designed to speak with DOS... over a modem. Unfortunately, we couldn't quite get the bugs out of an upgrade to communicating with a FreeDOS installed on a 2k dollar laptop of today.

It wasn't so much that the "enterprise" software hadn't been updated to support it. The small company had an investment in older but still completely viable technology, and couldn't afford to remain profitable if updating to newer (and more unreliable) hardware.

Responding...what a word

[tuppe666]

It appears that Microsoft are responding to the needs of their customers

The response was "fuck you"

Re:A step in the right direction!

[roc97007]

> It appears that Microsoft are responding to the needs of their customers.

...and that's exactly what they were after -- an appearance of responding to the needs of the customers, without actually doing so.

New Start menu is not so bad - Metro apps are

[hsa]

Once you get used to it, the new Start menu is ok. You don't spend much time in there anyway.

The real pain in the ass are the stupid full screen Metro apps. Yeah, they just pop up with brightly colored interface that is optimized for touch. They completely disrupt your workflow, there is no visible Exit-button, and they do that for one screen only (if you have multimonitor system, you will totally hate this).

This happens more every now and then and I have to go through some trouble to replace them with better OSS alternatives. If you are watching a video, default app might pop up, and maybe nag about codec or not being up to date - when you really just want to see the video now, with clear controls. PDF reader pops up with no clear navigation and ofcourse fullscreen, and these ofcourse always go to the same monitor, even if you would like to read the PDF on screen #2, while coding. Shit like this happens also with images and music, and the interface is just .. horrible.

I don't even care anymore, if they fixed this. I've been downloading OSS replacements for just about every program and I am curretly ok with my Windows. But instead of fixing the Start menu, which is only a minor nuisance, they could make WINDOWED and USABLE default apps.

They should also shoot the guy, who designed all their new software (Office, Visual Studio..) USING ONLY CAPS FOR TITLES, patch them back to normal and make my eyes hurt less.

Re:New Start menu is not so bad - Metro apps are

[jones_supa]

The real pain in the ass are the stupid full screen Metro apps. Yeah, they just pop up with brightly colored interface that is optimized for touch. They completely disrupt your workflow, there is no visible Exit-button, and they do that for one screen only (if you have multimonitor system, you will totally hate this).

This! There's a debate going on who likes the Start Screen and who doesn't, but one of the supposed main attractions of Windows 8 are the Metro apps. And almost no one likes or needs them.

Re:New Start menu is not so bad - Metro apps are

[zippthorne]

Yet a huge number of users simulate "metro" apps by maximizing everything all the time.

At least, a huge number of my co-workers do. The even go so far as to make fun of me for wanting to have two things on the screen at once when I can just alt-tab between them to get the same information....

Re:New Start menu is not so bad - Metro apps are

[jones_supa]

Yet a huge number of users simulate "metro" apps by maximizing everything all the time.

Then at least make the desktop and Metro apps share a common taskbar. Switching between desktop and Metro apps is currently as clunky as switching between your normal desktop and a virtual machine.

Re:New Start menu is not so bad - Metro apps are

[H0p313ss]

there is no visible Exit-button,

ALT-F4

But yeah, it's not user friendly at all.

Re:New Start menu is not so bad - Metro apps are

[Osgeld]

I agree, I got office 2013 handed to me for work, and wow, snowblind, you can change the theme, but your options are white light grey and dark grey, and the stupid buttons on slashdot are a darker grey than dark grey in office

the scrolling text effect would be nice, but constantly feels like its one step behind what your doing, and here I was thinking we got past the days of input lag on a gui... seriously its like using office on my mac LCII

I have a few other nitpicky things about 2013, but overall, its harder to use, slower to use and the only feature I have found so far that is actually an improvement is a button for remove dupes in excel, other than that, geez I wish I still had 2007 or 10 at work.

Re:New Start menu is not so bad - Metro apps are

[frankconner]

Here Here

Re:New Start menu is not so bad - Metro apps are

[Cro Magnon]

Worse! I don't remember ever switching between my desktop and a virtual machine by mistake. I often do so between Metro and the desktop.

GNU/Linux forced on XP users

[tuppe666]

When you're done GNU/Linux is here for you to upgrade to.

It has been marked flamebait, which is kind of strange considering users are migrating on the Desktop to GNU/Linux(For want of a name) Chrome and Android (seriously!?), the trend is small, but noticeable. Apple is having its own problem on the Desktop.

The bottom line is this version Metro is going to be Microsoft's OS offering those hostages of XP, end of Line only months away. I have to say the timing of Balmers departure looks almost as convenient as Bill (Fuck your charity) Gates (I don't need to pay taxes I have a charity) exit.

Re:GNU/Linux forced on XP users

[mcgrew]

It has been marked flamebait, which is kind of strange considering users are migrating on the Desktop to GNU/Linux(For want of a name) Chrome and Android (seriously!?), the trend is small, but noticeable.

Microsoft fans (or are they all shills? Doubtful...) get mod points, too. More honest moderators have fixed it, he's sitting at 2 as I write this.

Oh, and to keep the MS fans/shills/stockholders/employees with mod points from modding other insightful comments down I'll get them to waste them on me.

Micro$oft SuXXorz!!!"

Shouldn't take long to hit -1.

Re:A step in the right direction!

[Noughmad]

It appears that Microsoft are responding to the needs of their customers. This is a good start.

Not always, no. There are famous quotes by people from Henry Ford to Gene Roddenberry that all come down to "people don't know what they want". And it's true, if MS asked what people wanted, 90% would say XP, solely because they're used to it.

Part of the reason Apple is so successful is that they followed a vision despite all naysayers. As seen in both Windows 8 and X-Box One, Microsoft tends to backpedal on their vision. Not being sure about your own products can hardly lead to market success.

This Start Button thing is such a side-show

[umafuckit]

Personally, I think this stuff with the Start Button is a side show. Even if they reverted it back completely to the Win7 behavior, it wouldn't remedy the underlying problems with the OS and the MS software ecosystem in general. In particular: the persistent development of their own "standards" for the purposes of locking out competition, general dumbing down of the OS, poor CLI integration (please just build-in Bash), no multiple desktops, and why sometimes when I drag many large files into a new directory does Win 7 spend ages doing a copy then delete?

Re:This Start Button thing is such a side-show

[jader3rd]

and why sometimes when I drag many large files into a new directory does Win 7 spend ages doing a copy then delete?

If it's on the same disk a move is a just a path rename and takes no time at all. If the data is changing hard drives a move is a copy and a delete.

Re:This Start Button thing is such a side-show

[udippel]

Personally, I think this stuff with the Start Button is a side show. Even if they reverted it back completely to the Win7 behavior, it wouldn't remedy the underlying problems with the OS and the MS software ecosystem in general. In particular: the persistent development of their own "standards" for the purposes of locking out competition, general dumbing down of the OS, poor CLI integration (please just build-in Bash), no multiple desktops, and why sometimes when I drag many large files into a new directory does Win 7 spend ages doing a copy then delete?

Okay, understood.
Why not install a proper OS then?

Re:This Start Button thing is such a side-show

[PCM2]

poor CLI integration (please just build-in Bash)

Windows PowerShell is arguably a superior CLI to Bash.

Re:This Start Button thing is such a side-show

[umafuckit]

Okay, understood. Why not install a proper OS then?

Because, there's not always a choice. My main work machine runs Linux and I use OSX at home. I spend at least 85% of my time on those systems. However, I'm also forced to use a Windows machine for some tasks because the hardware/software combo I need to do my work is Windows only. I defintely feel the productivity hit when I'm on the Windows machine. I feel the OS gets in the way and I'm itching to ditch it. I'm investigating ways of improving things: e.g. I run Dexpot but it's flaky at times and feels like a hack. So that brings me to my second answer to your question: why shouldn't Windows have the features that would make us deem it to be a "proper OS"?

Re:This Start Button thing is such a side-show

[jones_supa]

poor CLI integration (please just build-in Bash)

If we look at PowerShell, I really can't fault Microsoft's direction. It's a true object-oriented shell with good documentation including lots of examples, and they ship a nice little Integrated Scripting Environment tool to help script writers. I'm still more comfortable in a UNIX shell, because that's what I know best, but I would gladly want to have some of the PS features brought there.

why sometimes when I drag many large files into a new directory does Win 7 spend ages doing a copy then delete?

That is probably just to prevent a mess if something goes wrong when moving the files.

Re:This Start Button thing is such a side-show

[umafuckit]

and why sometimes when I drag many large files into a new directory does Win 7 spend ages doing a copy then delete?

If it's on the same disk a move is a just a path rename and takes no time at all. If the data is changing hard drives a move is a copy and a delete.

Yeah, I know. Data aren't changing disks in this case. It's move to sub-directory.

Re:This Start Button thing is such a side-show

[benjymouse]

Powershell isn't built-in....

Yes it is. Since Windows 7 and Server 2008 PowerShell is considered part of the operating system. Several OS features such as the troubleshooting packs rely on PowerShell. The OS comes with PowerShell and you cannot even uninstall it (you can uninstall the ISE but the console remains).

Re:This Start Button thing is such a side-show

[jader3rd]

What size of files are you talking about? I do such moves with no issue.

Re:This Start Button thing is such a side-show

[umafuckit]

Maybe /. this isn't the place for this conversation, but anyway... I haven't logged the events so working from memory here: moves of about 5 or 6 files of size 200 to 500 megs each. Problem may be intermittant (i.e. not all moves show the issue), but all problem moves are to a sub-directory on the same disk and when it happens it's really obvious (the progress bar comes up and slowly chugs along for a few seconds). Weird, but I just ignore it, sftp my data to the Linux box and try to pretend the Windows box doesn't exist.

Re:This Start Button thing is such a side-show

[umafuckit]

Thanks, I hadn't thought of that. It could be the issue. However, there are two HDDs on the machine and I know spin-ups of the second disk (which I use rarely) are quite salient and I was aware that they led to pauses in the UI. Whilst I didn't hear spin-ups prior to the troublesome moves within the same disk, it's also true that I wasn't looking out them. I shall do so.

Re:This Start Button thing is such a side-show

[Isaac Remuant]

also, arguably very different to a point it's hard to compare.

If we're talking about productivity with an OS. I'll stick to bash+gnu tools every time although I'm very glad that powershell exists.

Re:This Start Button thing is such a side-show

[vlueboy]

Windows PowerShell is arguably a superior CLI to Bash.

Not sure it can be without a built-in command history.
It's just a culture pain to use it for actual work which requires reusing a lot of code.
Sure, I can try cut-and-paste to get around it, but not from my mouse... and Control-V fails. And we must use a menu to paste, and windows likes block select rather than line-select. It's got the same behaviors as a normal dosbox, which is the whole point driving us to just installing cygwin / bash

Re:Missing feature?

[udippel]

Giving me an uninstall feature and I might consider it. ;)

Try ubuntu.com.

NO Start Menu, its METRO menu ... METRO Button

[citizenr]

How effin difficult is it to get the difference?

windows 8.1, excellent OS

[Vince6791]

Windows 8.1 is just fast, intuitive, customizable, and a lot better than windows 7. Don't care for the old start menu, never really used it, never cared for it, plus the windows 7 menu does not scroll when it exceeds the icon limit in favorites. With the metro I can pin more than 50+ applications on a single screen without the need to scroll, although, the scrolling never really bothered me. Installing the 8.1 OS, apps, applications, configuring, and transferring files is just better and faster than 7.

Windows 8/8.1 I think is a lot more productive than xp/7. To some people the metro may look childish but it's definitely easier on the eyes and quicker accessing applications just by looking at the tile icons instead of squinting reading the icon text like in windows 7 start menu. Overall, windows 8.1 is excellent.

Linux, I still have beef with the linux being too internet dependent(not everyone has 24/7 perfect internet) when it comes to installing applications(store mines in storage for later installs), although I can install whatever i need and just use aptoncd(sometimes works) or relinux to make another distro. The linux DE's are still flaky although mate and cinnamon put windows7 menu to shame. Unity is fine just wish they would make it more like the metro where you can pin whatever applications you want into the dash.

   

we run Windows because we have to

[roc97007]

To the shills bleating about people denigrating Windows 8 as "just whiners" are being a bit disingenuous. We run Windows because we have to. Companies standardize on Windows because certain applications only run there. However, we do *not* have to go out and buy whatever crapheap Microsoft grunts out, because we're up on the shallow end of the curve regarding Windows -- with all its faults and security holes, it's gotten about as good as it's going to get. We haven't had to anticipate the large collection bugfixes, paradigm fixes and interface compatibility that is the next version of Windows since XP. There is no new USB-like interface that would make us snap up 98SE as soon as it's available. There's no huge stability increase that would make us slaver for Win2000 or WinXP. Even Win7 was really just a minor improvement.

The issue, if any, is that new systems have Win8 crapped all over it, and Win8 is another one of those ill-advised attempts at "leading the industry" by producing a bad copy of what Microsoft thinks everyone else is doing. This requires reimaging at work, which is ok because we'd probably do that anyway, and I can still get Win7 through my OEM, so systems I build for friends and relatives are not affected that much. But someone buys a laptop and it has that nasty interface on it, and they bring it to me, and well, I'm afraid I have some bad news. I can put the start menu back, but all the other stuff -- the charms and hot corners and sliding gestures that can't be done on a trackpad, you're stuck with those, unless you pay for another copy of Windows.

We are at the point where we don't care about a new OS anymore, because we have actual work to do that does not entail learning the quirks of a new OS.

This goes double for servers. We still have a lot of stuff running on Server 2003, because it works and there's no reason to swap it out. Newer machines will have Server 2008, which is still ok, but we have no inclination to deal with the metro-esque misfeatures of 2012.

Re:we run Windows because we have to

[Billly Gates]

I think you should reconsider your opinion on Windows 2012 server? FYI you can make it CLI only with core!

Windows 2012 is a big upgrade and is very VM ready compared to its past versions with dynamic memory allocation fucking finally, ability, DNS and AD servers are now VM ready, its hypervisor for HYPER V is now a type 1 bare metal that can go toe to toe with VSphere, it supports AD compression between other Windows 8 and 2012 servers. This means your crappy WAN with 100 users on the other side of the T1 can have traffic reduce by 50% (if you put a small Windows server 2012 on other side!)

Server has I/O improvements with SAN where if one volume is busy it will use another. Just because you like being conservative does not mean all change is for the sake of change like what many XP users still think. Windows 7 also was a pretty big upgrade from XP. I go crazy now without aero peak, aero snap, and instant search. Try it? Hit Windows key WOR and enter? Word pops out with no mouse at all. Same for keywords in documents too with instant search. See its more than eye candy from XP.

I personally do not give a c rap about Metro on the server even though its optional because sys admins rarely sit in front of it. Once installed they use the MMC console anyway at their desks.

I agree the purpose of Windows 8 is to sell more copies of Windows phone and for eye candy. But like Vista it is a new slate and I will reserve judgement for Windows 9. The server can actually save money as VSphere is extremely expensiveand this is the first version of Windows that can replace it.

Re:we run Windows because we have to

[roc97007]

You don't understand. Like a lot of places, Windows admin here is offshore. After a few hours training, third world sheepherders are handed a stack of procedures and turned loose on the machines. Changing the GUI is a very very VERY bad thing in this kind of environment. And a CLI only environment? Great for someone who knows what they're doing, a recipe for disaster otherwise.

I'm sure it seemed like a great thing, but Microsoft is now a prisoner of their own mindshare. For better or worse, the perception is that anyone can do Windows admin -- it's just pushing buttons. You and I know that's not true, but we have lost our voice with management. And it's not hard to foresee that big changes to how the server operates is a good way to have really bad things happen in the middle of the night.

Re:we run Windows because we have to

[Billly Gates]

If you rely on a third world sheeper for your core infrastructure then you are quite fucked! Penny wise pound foolish if something happens and they can't figure it out fast enough. I can see help desk going over there, but the loss of productivity from one user to the whole fucking enterprise is HUGE.

Things never are the same and consisent everyday. One example is when a client moved to Windows 7 a whole fucking group of people just got a hang on the welcome screen/can not estable trust relationship error for 3 days. It was annoying and our admin worked like mad to solve it. Turns out a bug from Windows Vista still in Windows 7 had an issue with a TCP ARP entry from an old OU where the group still had members of both

Name a brochure or a stack of proceedures for something like this? There is none. You need to be a pretty damn advanced know it all to be a compotent admin.

I think for advanced users METRO is not a big deal as I could theoretically get shit done on Windows 8. It just takes longer to do the same task but that is because I use the gui all day if I use it as a desktop and the start screen blocks everything and forces the human brain to switch context when I am in the train of thought unlike Windows 7's version of instant search. 8.1 at least matches its featureset ugh. But, we are advanced users and so are admins. All the stuff is there you just have to go page page page and click the hot corners to find a gui app. Most of Microsofts new server products really need powershell such as exchange. But that is just setup once up and running it is back to Windows 7 via MMC and powershell terminals at their desks.

I never see the guis of Windows server except when I walk in the room so it is different and if they need a gui tool they can still find it with Metro but it might take longer, but this is different than a desktop usage.

If your admins do not know how to use it still then FIRE THEM. It is not worth millions on hour if they are not certified and know how to do these things via automation in a real production environment. There are books, VMWare is fairly cheap, and there is virtualbox too if you are dirtcheap where you can learn this over the course of a year at home where you can setup virtual networks. That is how I learned Exchange 2007 and setting up OWA etc. Yes they need to be professionals cooks and not chefs using a recipe unless it is a small business server.

But that is just me. I would prefer to keep Windows 7 but would love Windows 2012 server as long as I do not have to sit physically in front of it.

Re:we run Windows because we have to

[roc97007]

> If you rely on a third world sheeper for your core infrastructure then you are quite fucked! Penny wise pound foolish if something happens and they can't figure it out fast enough. I can see help desk going over there, but the loss of productivity from one user to the whole fucking enterprise is HUGE.

...as we have found many times. But upper management sees that IT costs are cheaper, and apparently that's all that matters.

Hey Microsoft, want $30/year from me?

[istartedi]

Patch XP past its EOL, and charge $30/yr for the patch subscriptions. I'll buy it.

What I will NEVER do is use a locked-down phone platform as my primary device.

Re:A step in the right direction!

[PCM2]

Not always, no. There are famous quotes by people from Henry Ford to Gene Roddenberry that all come down to "people don't know what they want". And it's true, if MS asked what people wanted, 90% would say XP, solely because they're used to it.

This is actually something I think about often. Steve Jobs' "genius" was that he always told people what they wanted, then gave it to them.

Microsoft, on the other hand, always CLAIMS to make changes because "that's what people want." They do endless research to see what buttons people click after they click this or that button, and then they make those buttons bigger so they're easier to click. They arrange the Office Ribbon based on what they see people doing. Everything, EVERYTHING is based on research, both through direct surveys and blind feedback from their software running in the wild... ...and yet, when they make the changes, most people seem to respond negatively. But Microsoft won't revise its changes -- or allow a smart, Steve Jobs-like human to make the decisions -- because they have all this research, so they "know" what people want. "You say you hate this? Well you're wrong, you don't hate it, and I can prove it."

TL;DR Microsoft actually seems hamstrung by its own design methodology. It designs by committee, vote, and statistical study, rather than by inspiration -- and its slavish adherence to those methods means it has a hard time recovering from its own mistakes.

Microsoft Account

[jones_supa]

One of the crappy features of Win8 is that they try their best to shove a Microsoft Account down your throat and use it to log into your OWN computer. I'm betting that their intentions include using that account to increasingly more datamine various things about your and your computer usage. That's not cool at all.

Re:Microsoft Account

[TheSkepticalOptimist]

I'll call out FUD whenever I see it.

You can happily use Windows 8 without being tied to a windows account. But how is having a windows account different from your iTunes or Google or Yahoo or Facebook or Slashdot, or countless other social services, or how about that fact that any phone and tablet these days are tied to a walled garden and your credit card? A Windows account just sets up 5gb of free skydrive services and an outlook email, both which you never have to use.

I don't love Windows 8 for a lot of reasons, but I mean if you are going to say ignorant things then expect to be called out for it.

Re:Microsoft Account

[jones_supa]

But how is having a windows account different from your iTunes or Google or Yahoo or Facebook or Slashdot, or countless other social services

Because it's my personal computer that I'm logging into!

Re:Microsoft Account

[PsychoSlashDot]

One of the crappy features of Win8 is that they try their best to shove a Microsoft Account down your throat and use it to log into your OWN computer. I'm betting that their intentions include using that account to increasingly more datamine various things about your and your computer usage. That's not cool at all.

If only there was a thing you could click that said "Don't want to sign in with a Microsoft Account?"

Now, that said, try activating an OEM copy of Office 2013 Home & Business. That on the other hand can't be done without a Live account excepting very odd circumstances. I've seen machines shipped by Dell that didn't require the account. As an MS partner we escalated to them for our own installs and evidently even using the OPK (Office Preinstallation Kit) for OEMs the Live account can't be bypassed. Basically we were repeatedly told it couldn't be done, by multiple departments, Dell be damned. So your fury and paranoia is misplaced. Wrong product.

Re:Microsoft Account

[Myria]

I don't love Windows 8 for a lot of reasons, but I mean if you are going to say ignorant things then expect to be called out for it.

Apparently, you haven't tried the Windows 8.1 Preview.

Re:Microsoft Account

[jones_supa]

Actually your Office experience is right on the same line. As I said, they will try to "force a Microsoft Account down your throat", ultimately leading to "sure, you don't have to have a Microsoft Account, but you can't do almost anything without one". It will be like using an Android phone without a Google account.

Re:Microsoft Account

[Microlith]

You can happily use Windows 8 without being tied to a windows account.

You can, but as I noticed (and was suspicious of at first) when I got my new laptop, they try to present the Windows Account as necessary.

how is having a windows account different from your iTunes or Google or Yahoo or Facebook or Slashdot

At least in my case, each service has its own password.

how about that fact that any phone and tablet these days are tied to a walled garden and your credit card?

Only Windows Phone and iOS devices are walled gardens. As for my credit card, by that logic so is my browser via Amazon.

Windows account just sets up 5gb of free skydrive services and an outlook email, both which you never have to use.

So in other words the Windows Account is useless, but it looks great on Microsoft's numbers!

Re:Microsoft Account

[tepples]

But how is having a windows account different from your iTunes or Google or Yahoo or Facebook or Slashdot, or countless other social services

Because you might want house guests to be able to log on to the family PC's guest account without being able to read your Hotmail.

Re:Microsoft Account

[rastos1]

He said that "they try their best to shove a Microsoft Account down your throat" and that is true. It is also true that you can use Win8 without MS account. That is however disabled in 8.1 preview (and should be available again in RTM). It is also non-obvious to causal user how to do that. They also try to get me to use my real first and last name as login. Finally, I'm not logged into Google, Yahoo, Facebook, iTunes, ... unless I'm directly on that site. Seems common sense to me. Sure that does not prevent them from trying to track me, but being logged in is a different thing. It feels like they are trying to deceit me and make my computer a thin client for their services (and then they'll try to exploit my dependency on their services). No thanks.

So if it is free to everyone is it ok if

[ralphaostrander]

I get the RTM from torrent instead of waiting till October.

Counting the cash

[tuppe666]

I bet Micro$oft is tired of supporting XP

Bless them maybe they should spend a little of that 70% Gross Margin. Customers measure support from time of purchase as does consumer law. The bottom line is XP users had no viable upgrade option till Windows 7, and then that is unlikely to support XP machines and peripherals.

Re:Counting the cash

[yuhong]

then that is unlikely to support XP machines and peripherals.

Unlikely to support *all* XP machines and peripherals.

Re:Counting the cash

[yuhong]

Customers measure support from time of purchase as does consumer law.

So basing it on the end of sales date? Which one?

meh

[TheSkepticalOptimist]

Just finished learning how to use the new Windows 8, now they expect me to learn the old way again? Never. LOL.

Windows 8.1 eh?

[CFBMoo1]

*looks it over*

Oh hey a start button.

*Click*

Why am I back here at this Metro thing?

*click click*

Yeah I'm not paying for this either. Please go take another long hard look at Windows XP and Windows 7 and try again thinking "Classic Interface". For further references please see Windows 95, and 98. If you go near ME then we'll have to feed you to the forum trolls.

Re:File manager ?

[Teresita]

Where is the file manager in "Metro" ?

None, just as there is no file manager in Android, unless you download an app. Developers developers developers developers!

Honest question: Why does Metro exist on desktop?

[linuxguy]

I have been using Windows 8 on a few of my machines. I have been trying and failing to understand why Metro exists on desktops. I can understand tablets, but desktops? What does it do for an advanced user that cannot be done in standard desktop? From many examples I have seen so far, it appears that Microsoft ships two different ways of accomplishing various system related tasks (e.g. Windows update). If you use the old way in desktop, you are provided more options and given more information. The Metro version is made grandma friendly. You see nothing, you can change nothing.

Additionally some things just take longer to do in Metro.

These sort of thing keeps me from wanting to use Metro. But it keeps getting shoved in my face. I am really truly baffled. Maybe there is a benefit to this and I cannot see forest for the trees. Somebody enlighten me.

Re:A step in the right direction!

[PsychoSlashDot]

Not always, no. There are famous quotes by people from Henry Ford to Gene Roddenberry that all come down to "people don't know what they want". And it's true, if MS asked what people wanted, 90% would say XP, solely because they're used to it.

Part of the reason Apple is so successful is that they followed a vision despite all naysayers. As seen in both Windows 8 and X-Box One, Microsoft tends to backpedal on their vision. Not being sure about your own products can hardly lead to market success.

Sure. And part of the reason why The-Artist-Formerly-Known-As-RIM is on the brink of implosion is that they followed a vision despite all naysayers.

See how that works? Dip-shit decisions are dip-shit decisions regardless of how stubborn you are.

Only time will reveal if Microsoft's stubborn unwillingness to budge on recent UI moves will turn out to be brilliant or not. For now all we (the users) know is that we don't like it, which isn't a great sign.

Re:Honest question: Why does Metro exist on deskto

[Teresita]

I have been using Windows 8 on a few of my machines. I have been trying and failing to understand why Metro exists on desktops. I can understand tablets, but desktops? What does it do for an advanced user that cannot be done in standard desktop?

What it is intended to do is boost Microsoft's anemic penetration of the mobile market by forcing everyone to get accustomed to the Zune-style tiles UI on the desktop machines they have to use at work so they'll see a phone or tablet and won't shy away, and somehow this will translate to market share. Unfortunately, it's a non-starter because people buy phones and tablets for relaxing AFTER work. Because after 5 pm it's time to do something DIFFERENT than PowerPoint and Outlook and Excel.

I'll take what I can get

[rsilvergun]

I do a lot of remote IT support, and it's a nightmare getting that damn thing to pop up in an RDP or logmein session.

Microsoft Galley

[fnj]

Users only exist as lock-in to pay for the arbitrary, stupid, and blundering design path of Windows. Windows is not to serve them. They are to serve Windows.

Now listen to me, all of you. You are all condemned men. We keep you alive to serve this ship. So row well, and live.
Your eyes are full of hate, forty-one. That's good. Hate keeps a man alive. It gives him strength.
Battle speed!... Attack speed!... Ramming speed!

Re:It would help

[Cederic]

I just tried that. I was offered a choice: 'Paint', the MS provided basic image editor, or 'Paint.NET', the full featured system I installed.

Oddly enough, I knew the name of that one. I also know the names of Lightroom and GIMP, so I can type those too.

If you don't know what you're looking for, use the clumsy visual search capabilities, but don't go knocking the quick simple way for people that are familiar with the system to interact with it.

Re:It would help

[Xenx]

Why must people use faulty examples? If you type "pai" you get paint. Same is true of the control panel entries. When using the app search, filename for programs and CP entries doesn't matter as much as what it's called. It isn't my preferred method of interacting, but it does work well. At least understand what you're talking about...

Re:Don't care

[jones_supa]

While the Start Screen and Metro engine unnecessarily consumes resources in the background.

Re:A step in the right direction!

[jimbo]

Steve Jobs' talent was that he understood computers should be easy for everybody to use, in a time where they were technically intricate wonders for the initiated circle. He understood what people needed.

Re:A step in the right direction!

[Man On Pink Corner]

The real irony is what Microsoft actually resembles most: a Communist central planning agency. They hand down five year plans that look good on paper and test well in "focus groups" but that end up causing general mayhem and malaise when force-fed to the workers.

It's as if Ballmer was visiting East Germany when the wall came down, and got a good deal on a bunch of old books they were throwing out.

They bolted a desktop UI onto a tablet UI

[eco2geek]

It seems pretty obvious (to me, anyway; I'm a home user rather than an IT worker) that in Windows 8, Microsoft wanted to try to appeal to both tablet users with Metro, and to desktop users with the traditional desktop, all in one release. So they bolted a tablet interface to a desktop interface. It's sort of an odd combination, especially if you're new to Metro. Since the OS boots into Metro, it also seems pretty obvious that Microsoft's design choices wouldn't please business users or home users with large, non-touchscreen monitors who aren't interested in their computers looking like a tablet.

As part of its marketing campaign for IE 11, Microsoft's made Windows 8.1 Pro Preview virtual machine images available, so it's easy to try it out for yourself. The Start button takes you back to the Metro start screen, unless you right-click on it, in which case it brings up a context menu allowing you access to some of the more technical aspects of the OS (i.e. control panel; power shell; etc.).

I haven't played with it enough yet to find the setting that allows you to boot straight into the desktop rather than Metro, but even so, it's just one click to go to the desktop. But what they really to make desktop users happy is a Start menu button application launcher, and if you want that, AFAIK, you still have to install a 3rd-party utility.

Don't get the point of the start button

[flimflammer]

I really don't get what the point adding the start button even does at this point in time, except as a demonstration that Microsoft didn't understand what the actual problem was. Anyone can hit the windows key or even ctrl+escape to access the metro screen. What people wanted back was the familiar menu. The "start button" is irrelevant and merely a waste of space if all it does is activate the metro screen we already have.

Re:Don't get the point of the start button

[jon3k]

Let me preface this by saying: I hate Windows 8. With that said, serious question - what's wrong with the metro screen? I use it just like the start menu, I press the windows key and start typing what I'm looking for. I think of it as a full screen start menu. I've always wondered, from a practical perspective, what the issue was?

Re:Don't get the point of the start button

[flimflammer]

For me, the issue I take with it is it essentially wastes a lot of space to present even less information. I don't need gigantic tiles for every program I use stretched across the entire screen. The content aware tiles are nice but I have little need for them specifically, so it becomes a matter of wasted space and inconvenience as I might also need to see something on the screen as I'm typing into the search bar, such as program arguments.

I don't absolutely hate the metro screen, but I definitely do not prefer it and would disable it given the chance.

Re:Don't get the point of the start button

[jon3k]

Have you tried using Win+R? If I need to run something with arguments, I just hit Win+R to bring up the run menu and do it there, never even have to see the start menu or metro ui. I actually don't know how you run commands with arguments via the startmenu?

Re:Don't get the point of the start button

[flimflammer]

The search bar inside the Windows 7 start menu is functionally equivalent to the run dialog you're referring to.

Microsoft's internal view

[Mr_Plattz]

What I find interesting about this is not simply the fact they have implemented the start menu and a boot to desktop option. It's the simple fact that when we (Enterprises) sat down with Senior Microsoft Architects and internal consultants two years ago for our Windows 8 upgrade options, they swore black and blue with utter confidence, "It's never coming back". I thought this provided a nice insight into Microsoft's culture and communication.

Windows 7 x64 is the LAST Windows

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows has been the work-horse OS for every serious user since Windows 2000. However, after the most recent rise of Apple, the braindead upper management of Microsoft decided that all their products needed to be high-fashion toys, with new pointless and useless gimmicks to be learnt with each new generation of release. Intel was an active partner of this initiative, since each new iteration of Windows and associated products would be slower, thus needing the latest Intel chips to return speed to the PC.

The upshot is that Windows 7 x64 marks the last edition of Windows that serious users will ever consider or need. Everything important from Windows 8 (like point upgrades to DirectX) will be silently released as updates to Windows 7. Windows 8 is such a disaster, Microsoft would be cutting off its nose to spite its face if it encouraged ANY proper windows apps (not RT/Metro/New-UI) to only run on Windows 8. Microsoft's big under-the-hood architectural change was from XP to Vista. Vista/Win7/Win8 can be considered the same for real use.

Microsoft will never again produce a truly 'new' desktop OS. Variants of Win7 are all you will ever get now, dressed up in high fashion clothes that will be labelled "9", "10" or whatever. And life is too short to bother wrangling these post-7 variants back into something as useful as 7.

With Ballmer gone, expect Win9 to offer 'flavours' including "original". The RT/Metro/New-UI crap will be reworked into a 'free' OS to allow for mobile devices as cheap as those that use Android, but this move will be far too late.

Microsoft's trashing of XP and the users that still find it perfect will prove to be Microsoft's greatest mistake. The error would have been mitigated if Microsoft itself stood behind Windows 7 x64, and formally declared it the next XP for serious users. Instead, Microsoft pays (and I mean PAYS) shills to flood forums like this with dribble about how haters of Windows 8 are moronic Luddites. Given that those who defend XP and Win7 are defending Microsoft products, Microsoft is using shills to trash brand loyalty, and this is extraordinarily self-destructive.

Android doesn't use X11

[tepples]

Linux without some form of X based desktop is fine for servers, but really less than appealing in user land.

I'd bet an Android based GUI has been more successful in terms of number of devices in use than all X based GUIs combined.

One is behavior and the other is not

[tepples]

A desktop background is not behavior. The amount of screen space that the application starting method covers is behavior. There's a difference.

Undervalued currencies

[tepples]

unlike Linux, Windows costs me money.

I'd wager a good amount that you dick around for hours making linux 'work appropriately'

This sounds like the old saw "Linux is free iff your time is worth nothing." But in practice, the time/money tradeoff isn't the same in all situations. Someone might be learning to operate a computer on the meager amount that a minor is allowed to earn under child labor laws. Building a nettop out of a Raspberry Pi with GNU/Linux is cheaper than building a PC with Windows. Or the Balassa-Samuelson model demonstrates how countries without a mature export industry tend to have undervalued currencies. People in such countries have to buy Windows in US dollars, which are worth more hours of their labor than would be the case for someone in a G8 country buying Windows.

Try running, say, the iTunes store that way

[tepples]

I've tried several Windows applications that members of my family use under Wine on my Linux laptop. Then I found out why they were rated "garbage" in AppDB.

Bring back hosts with your own DNS server

[tepples]

I am working on a project at home where I need virtual machines with hostnames so I can type in the name of the servers in an url in all 3 browsers. I can't do this in Windows 8 as it will ignore my custom HOSTS file.

Then run your own DNS server on one of those VMs.

Re:Bring back hosts with your own DNS server

[Billly Gates]

I thought of that and not to mention the waste of having 2 gigs for a DNS server I then have the complexity of setting up my host to use it. If the DNS VM is not on then I loose internet access.

That is silly.

Stickers

[tepples]

When you're not a computer geek or Microsoft employee, you don't necessarily touch computers every day, and trying to remember which hot corner to touch or where your application is, or how to get out of a full screen Metro app, is not something they're going to remember or even want to try to figure out.

Then put stickers on the four corners of the monitor: "<- Start Screen" at the bottom left, "<- Switch App" at the top left, and "-> Charms" at the top right. It'd be like the cardboard overlays on the F keys back in the DOS days.

Re:Stickers

[dbIII]

Mod this up to five guys as actually a pretty good idea and then link it every time somebody complains about a linux, mac, gimp or whatever interface being unintuitive (eg. yes it sucks, but not like win8).

Take note interface designers of the future - if the interface is so broken that putting stickers on the screen to tell people how to use it is a good idea it's time to improve it or put someone else in charge of setting it up.

Let's define no-name company

[tepples]

I.T. people cant and dont use random weirdo programs from no-name companies.

You mean like Firefox? What makes Mozilla Corp less of a "no-name" developer than Ivo Beltchev?

Re:Honest question: Why does Metro exist on deskto

[jon3k]

It's really a simple strategy. Microsoft needed a way into the smartphone/tablet space. So, they push the same interface across all devices. Now slowly everyone will upgrade to Windows 8, either by buying new PCs as their's die, upgrading, using computers at work, etc. Then when they go to buy a phone or tablet, the interface is already familiar.

They basically don't give a shit if it's an inferior interface for the desktop, because they know people won't have a choice as Windows 7 goes EOL they'll be forced to use it.

Don't need 2 GB for DNS in a VM

[tepples]

the waste of having 2 gigs for a DNS server

You wouldn't need 2 GB. There are plenty of small GNU/Linux distributions and smaller BusyBox/Linux distributions into which you can install a DNS server.

Re:Don't need 2 GB for DNS in a VM

[tepples]

Too many ambiguous pronouns. No web access on what host? If what is turned off? Where is this VM running?

Just install an application that works

[dbIII]

For example, playing a video or MP3 file is still a hassle

And so it also is on MS Windows due to codec weirdness, yet there are simple solutions that work on both platforms like VLC.

Re:Missing feature?

[danomac]

Then use Mint. I'd rather have a Mint than a Saucy Salamander.

Microsoft contacted the author to...

[Ilgaz]

It is a big deal if you have to replace a core component of an OS with a third party solution to make it usable.

A logical acting company would hire the developer of "Classic Shell/ Start Menu". Microsoft, however, contacted him (a rough guess) to change the freaking Windows icon. It is already ironic that something open source, hosted at sourceforge may have saved millions of lost sales for Microsoft.

Re:Lots of downgrades.

[roc97007]

> 64 bit memory management was by far the most important upgrade.

agreed agreed agreed. Also agree with the rest of your response, and would like to add -- the search on start menu on Win7 has a really annoying, almost whimsical delay. I use mstsc a *lot* (as an admin) and I've found that you need to count one-one-thousand-two-one-thousand after typing it before hitting return, or you get the file explorer instead. Why? Who the HELL knows. Just some quirk they never got around to fixing, apparently.

Re:Honest question: Why does Metro exist on deskto

[satuon]

Not home consumers - they don't care if Windows 7 is EOL, they'll use their PC till it dies. And for corporate customers, they usually install their own image on any new hardware they get, so Windows 8 coming pre-loaded won't help with them.

How many programs do you guys run?

[Merk42]

I know there is all this hate about the Windows 8 UI, I have it in a VM. If you make the launcher the smallest size of a 1080p screen you can fit 294 icons on the screen without even scrolling. (actually another 16 on the far right edge so 310). If for some reason you use more than that you can click the little down arrow and get all your applications in categories just like the Start Menu you're used to, with the exception of not having to click for categories, so actually better.

Call me shill even though I run Linux at home, at least I look at new UIs and don't just say it's bad because it's different/Microsoft.

What in HIPAA?

[tepples]

My wife works from home as a Medical Recruiter, should she get all pissy with I.T. because her laptop has to comply with HIPAA regulations?

That depends on the answer to the following: What in HIPAA forbids the IT department to review and deploy Classic Shell or Start8?

Re:What in HIPAA?

[spire3661]

You are tolling again Tepples. You know why I.T locks things down and standardizes machine loads. If YOU had to deploy machines like this, would YOU allow users to install an unvetted program? FLat out, its not YOUR computer, its the company's and you will use it in a manner they describe. It amazes me how many people think its 'their' computer.

Wine in Linux in VM

[tepples]

The fix is to run the thing in the environment it's been developed for.

This requires acquiring a lot of Windows licenses.

Personally I'd like to see a windows platform version of wine for all the old stuff that won't run on win7 but will run on wine

Wine under Cygwin has been attempted, but I don't know whether it's supported. You could try running Wine under Xubuntu or a similarly light GNU/Linux operating system in a VM.

Re:Wine in Linux in VM

[dbIII]

This requires acquiring a lot of Windows licenses.

Doing any fucking thing at scale with MS Windows requires a lot of Windows licenses. If that's what is absolutely needed to run the applications you have then that's what you pay unless you are willing to look for other applications that do the same tasks.

Wine under Cygwin has been attempted

I don't think I was clear enough - since wine is really just a bunch of libraries to give an application an environment something it can run in cygwin shouldn't be needed, and in fact it would get it the way. Instead of double handling it would be better to have a way to convince the problem applications to use the wine version of the libraries instead of the current version. I can't see a third party being able to do it so it's a wish for MS to give up on the braindead backwards step they took with MSDOS and follow the lead of things like their dotnet project (or every other OS for the last three decades) and sort out their library problems.

You could try running Wine under Xubuntu or

Yes I've already tested something like that where a user on win7 clicks a desktop link that opens up an X session on a linux box to run the old AutoCAD they like under wine and display under X on their windows box - but we shouldn't have to put together such bullshit rube-goldberg devices to run MS Windows software on an MS Windows desktop. There's multiple points of failure and bastards like Autodesk are sure to find a licence violation in that chain somewhere. That means keeping old machines lying around and connecting to them via VNC, or virtualising them if there is no need for hardware dongles. However either way is very clunky and slows the users down. MS windows users are not yet used to the idea of having interfaces to multiple computers on their desktop and easily lose track of where they have put their files (not their fault - bad interface design).

Apple's problem?

[unixisc]

What exactly is Apple's problem on the desktop? Other than the cost of a Mac?

Didn't jump to install the beta

[Borgmeister]

As the whole "perspectives on the new UI" argument has been done to death, I'll only add my personal feelings - no demands on Microsoft, it's their product. But I really despise the jarring change of perspective using the Start Screen, I like the overall image of the desktop to remain static - which this new version will apparently provide (to be clear, I watch movies/game etc, but when working with a document and the web side by side, I don't want to visually have to reacquire every time I hit the winkey). I installed a 3rd party addon - problem solved. However, I think that the criticisms have been overly harsh on an element that is relatively unimportant with aforementioned fix; what is nice about Windows 8 is the improved Windows Explorer, the snappier boot times, the decent multi-monitor support (hey, look - I don't have extensive requirements, it does everything I need in a straightforward manner), the ridiculous ease of home networking/NAS media storage etc, the fact I can install the vast majority of software and expect it to work etc. Despite all that, I haven't upgraded the beta because the changes appear to affect components I no longer see or deal with (Smartglass aside - useful for Netflix control to the TV). I haven't looked at the Windows Store in months, and nor it seems, do I need to.

Re:Honest question: Why does Metro exist on deskto

[jon3k]

Yeah I agree with you, generally speaking. 99% of consumers don't ever upgrade their OS, but just threw in that caveat because some will. And Enterprises will be the ones that are pushed onto Windows 8 by the EOL.

Then standardize on Classic Shell

[tepples]

You are tolling again Tepples.

Is there some sincerity mark to show that I honestly don't know why something isn't possible?

You know why I.T locks things down and standardizes machine loads.

I still don't know why the IT department, which has the power to decide what the standardized machine load consists of, can't include Classic Shell in the standardized machine load.

It figures...

[iq145]

JUST when i buy Windows 8...

Re:Don't care

[jones_supa]

No, it isn't. I wasn't comparing Windows 8 to Windows 7. Your argument is correct, but so is mine. However, Windows 8 would consume even less resources if the Start Screen and Metro engine were shut down.