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U.S. Gov't Still Fighting the Man Behind Buckyballs; Guess Who's Winning?
usacoder writes with news of Craig Zucker, former CEO of the company behind Buckyballs, the popular neodymium magnet toys that were banned by the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission in July 2012. Zucker ran a brief campaign to drum up opposition to the government's ban, but it didn't turn out to be enough. Unfortunately for Zucker, the story didn't end there. Despite the magnets being labeled as not for kids, the Commission filed a motion to find him personally liable for the costs of a product recall, estimated at around $57 million.
"Given the fact that Buckyballs have now long been off the market, the attempt to go after Mr. Zucker personally raises the question of retaliation for his public campaign against the commission. Mr. Zucker won't speculate about the commission's motives. 'It's very selective and very aggressive,' he says. ... Mr. Zucker says his treatment at the hands of the commission should alarm fellow entrepreneurs: 'This is the beginning. It starts with this case. If you play out what happens to me, then the next thing you'll have is personal-injury lawyers saying "you conducted the actions of the company, you were the company."'"
If you play out what happens to me, then the next thing you'll have is personal-injury lawyers saying "you conducted the actions of the company, you were the company.
So there is a chance companies will no longer get pathetic fines and be pretty much unaccountable for this misdeeds. Individuals who made decisions within the organization will be held responsible.
Good.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
""""you conducted the actions of the company, you were the company.""""
If you go by the decision of Citizens United with Corporate Person-hood... it REALLY should be...
However I want this more to be the case for large company's who do shit on PURPOSE and with intent and not small start-ups that don't account for the average humans capacity for stupidity (IE letting kids play with them and swallow them).
CAP: hoodwink
I wish I could buy more.
I rather like the idea of corporations being held responsible for releasing defective products that cause harm to others. I think most people would agree that this happens far too rarely. Were any banks prosecuted for their defective financial products that nearly destroyed the world economy a few years ago? Nope. A few low-level employees were selected to be slaughtered on the alter of public opinion, but the people truly responsible are still out there, reaping the rewards of our broken and disenfranchised middle class. How about the oil companies, responsible for countless ecological disasters, and whose fines often amounted to only a few days' wages?
This is not about whether we want the government going after corporations. We do. We really, really do. But we want them going after the big-time criminals, the people who represent the bulk of by-proxy harm of our society, not these small-time entrepreneurs who simply might not have known any better. This guy made a mistake. It hurt some people, and he should be held accountable. But I don't think it was malicious. I don't think it was reckless.
What the banks did, and what they're still doing right now, today, is. It's malicious, it's intentional, and it is with a callous disregard for the lives being destroyed by their actions. They're the financial equivalent of pouring cyanide into the water supply -- they're terrorists. And we're letting them go free, because they're too big to fail, and apparently too big to jail too.
So yeah, I support this action. But I also think it's like going after the ant problem in the kitchen while the house is on fire.
#fuckbeta #iamslashdot #dicemustdie
What's the sense in having laws if you can't apply them selectively and perniciously.
I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
Just shut up and take it.. Ask for more. How dare you create a product that could be misused if used inappropriately.
Now, joking aside this is really scary that the government is doing this.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
How about the parents who gave their [now dead] children (read: under 13) the thing be charged with manslaughter, unless giving them other things they shouldn't have which results in death [the list is is quiter long, but includes firearms, cutlery, chemicals, etc.] is also okey-dokey.
As long as were piercing the corporate veil, shouldn't we go after the CEO's that have cost the US taxpayers billions of dollars first? Or are government rules and regulations, and punitive actions only applicable for the little guy?
Thanks to your shenanigans, now we have to listen to every conspiracy theory anyone throws out there.
#DeleteChrome
Do not stick out.
If it was me and I had my life's work taken from me, and now being forced into bankruptcy and poverty, I'd hold the CPSC leaders responsible.
A government without fear of the people is not a republic. Time to put the fear back into them.
Methinks there is more to the story than what he's telling...
Goddamn it! Why did you guys have to post this? :( Now I get to be pissed off again at absurd overseas shipping charges for fucking magnets. "Fucking awesome magnets"! I don't have kids and luckily I don't have a taste for rems I'm more of a tortured baby cow burger kind of guy. "Someone will get it."
This is what happens when you sell super strong candy coated magnets to children. That's what happened, right?
U.S. Gov't Still Fighting the Man Behind Buckyballs; Guess Who's Winning?
I guess Buckyballs?
The wording is clue to my verdict, "U.S still Fighting the Man Behind Buckyballs"
I rest my case.
Buckyballs were labeled as for adults and not for kids before the commission came after him. However, because they are so similar to a "toy" it was labeled as a concern by the government. In my opinion, this action removes personal responsibility from the parents (the product was clearly labeled), and there should have been no actions against Buckyballs as long as they were properly labeled. There are many other products out there that are far more dangerous which look like toys which do not have these concerns.
Further, it begs the question:
Is it the norm for similar cases where the owner/company simply went out of business (without doing a recall) on an unsafe product, for the owners to be held liable for the cost of a potential recall after the fact?
If he is held personally liable, but a large number of other cases had companies which went out of business and the owners were not held liable - it seems likely there was some type of bias on his case.
One last item:
Protection from personal liability when you are a shareholder/officer of a corporation isn't absolute (you can still be held legally personally liable in certain cases.) Certain people here advise they don't like this fact, as they feel people should be personally liable. However, to be frank - fewer people would take risks if they faced personal ruin due to a lawsuit. A better option would be to revoke a company's incorporation status and in repeat offenses remove the ability for people to be part of another corporation perhaps. This would have the positives, without the negatives.
ROTFLMA. The servers at www.cpsc.gov are broke:
Server Error in '/' Application. Runtime Error Description: An application error occurred on the server. The current custom error settings for this application prevent the details of the application error from being viewed remotely (for security reasons). It could, however, be viewed by browsers running on the local server machine. Details: To enable the details of this specific error message to be viewable on remote machines, please create a tag within a "web.config" configuration file located in the root directory of the current web application. This tag should then have its "mode" attribute set to "Off". Notes: The current error page you are seeing can be replaced by a custom error page by modifying the "defaultRedirect" attribute of the application's configuration tag to point to a custom error page URL.
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
Corporate personhood, entrepreneurship, big business vs. small, selective enforcement, none of those are the issue here. The issue is that corporations exist specifically to protect the personal assets of the individuals behind them. Otherwise no one would invest in anything, since that would expose all their worldly goods to liabilities incurred by the company, instead of just the amount they invested. (Lloyd’s of London is a notable exception; investors pledge all their personal assets. But that’s a special case.)
Now, criminal wrongdoing is a different matter. Obviously you don’t get to form an LLC to rob banks and then enjoy immunity. But that’s not what’s happening here.
So they find that he sold a defective product (given that the judge and the persecuting agency are one and the same, that's a foregone conclusion), they find him personally liable, they take everything he owns and everything he'll make in the future... maybe he should hold the administrative judge and the particular CPSC bureaucrats involved personally responsible.
.. I'd be rushing to defend him..
He should have just marketed a real gun for kids. He'd probably still be in business, and some court would probably have ruled that neither he or his company could be sued for damages resulting from the use of his product. Perhaps his next venture should be buckyguns.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
if little johnny is stupid enough to eat magnets.. little johnny doesn't get to have kids of his own.
It's win win for the human species!
Fuck my generation had lawn darts! Sharp pointed metal things we threw at each other! And dammed if the vast majority of us didn't make it. Because we weren't stupid enough to stand under them.
America needs alot more potentially dangerous stuff for kids to play with. It weeds out the fat, slow, and stupid really well.
Did anyone really expect different from a Chicago politician? Punish with impunity anyone who dare question you.
Isn't this the reason for LLC (limited liability company) and incorporating? So only the company can be sued and the companies assets are all you can go after; and not the private property of the owner and it's officers & employees?
I could be wrong, but wasn't this a company and not some guy selling these things out of his garage.
If he wins his case will the individuals at the Consumer Product Safety Commission be personally liable to pay his costs & the Commission's legal bill ? After all: they were the ones who made the decision to engage in reckless litigation!
No: I thought not.
And guess what? The government is not suing the Haliburton CEO when it destroyed evidence in the BP oil spill that cost 11 lives.
You can't mess with the 2nd amendment but I wonder how long gun manufacturers would last if the CEOs of all companies which sell products in the United States which could possibly injure someone are held liable.
Oh what guns are ok but Buckeyballs are not because a child swallowed one? What if a child swallowed some ammo? That contains lead!
Oh the hypocrisy.
Some day you will curse the world you live in for giving the finger to Darwin and natural selection. Some day you'll realize that parenting skills are somewhat hereditary, and those that let kids eat magnets are to blame, not the magnets. If your ancient ancestors could have legally blame shifted as you do, you'd have gone extinct long ago.
Please explain why the principle of "innocent until proven guilty" shouldn't apply in this case.
Most infuriating was the commission's argument that a total recall was justified because Buckyballs have "low utility to consumers" and "are not necessary to consumers."
Quite a LOT of stuff is sold that is low utility to consumers, and not necessary. Should something, bought by consenting adults, for adults, be recalled because it might pose a danger, and is "low utility?"
Go figure. http://zenmagnets.com/
I want all of the power and none of the responsibility.
Thousands of items are sold every day that are dangerous and that kill people. Hand guns have almost no other purpose but to kill people, but have we ever heard of the CEO of any of these companies being personally liable for how the products are used?
This is a personal vendetta against the Buckeyball CEO because he had the balls to stand up against the feds and try to get attention for their discrimination against him. End of story.
They beat stress-balls over and over when you need a coding break.
All I can say is: only in America can they ban a magnet but argue against even the most basic control over a gun...
Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
http://www.theneocube.com/
Booooooo :(
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Barack Obama and his radical socialists, hard at work impoverishing you in everything that counts while you're distracted with Trayvon Martin and whatever race-baiting bullshit he shoves out the door. You get gay marriage but can't start a company or find a job. Healthcare is suddenly free but nobody can afford it. And you all think this is awesome?
Mr. Zucker says his treatment at the hands of the commission should alarm fellow entrepreneurs: 'This is the beginning. It starts with this case. If you play out what happens to me [...]
Without reference to the merits of the case, this sounds like a classic case of narcissistic paranoia.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
This is like fighting the IRS. Sell everything. Cancel all credit cards. Go on govt support. Well actually threaten to do that, unless they drop their actions. Be prepared to follow through. No empty threats. They can't take what you don't have.
Is the poster serious or stupid? With a name like IP Freely I think crank but it seems so serious... and the high account # makes me think reborn nutcase troll. and idiot.
Despite candy cigarettes resembling / modeling the real thing, we still allow kids to buy them and ingest them.
It shouldn't be anyone's fault but the purchaser / user if a product is properly labeled as to what it is and isn't, and yet it's misused anyway.
Yes. It SHOULD be that way. What we need to reform is WHAT you can get found guilty about. Idiots SHOULD NOT be rewarded for their stupidity. Criminally negligent management (think the banking bailout group) SHOULD be held personally liable as should judges who fail to punish child rapists, politicians who legislate against scientific subjects beyond their understanding, and a large group of others.
No surprise that the fed wants to destroy business. The surprise is when Obama actually seems to support capitalism . Rare I know.
When do we get to start killing these authoritarian fucks so they can't hurt anyone else?
How does some bullshit unconstitutional agency like the " U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission", whatever the fuck that is, have the right to ban a magnet?! Fucking Nuke this joke of a country already and end it.
Fuck all you all for voting in senile/retarded/christian/elderly authoritarian fucks year after year.
I'm sure that this is non-sequitur, but I can't help it: The first thing that came to mind is: What about the banks?
I can't really see why the actions taken by this person's company are illegal or even immoral. At worse, it appears they may have misjudged (but even that assertion is only made with the full benefit of hindsight).
In the case of the banks, they knew what they were doing was against established business practices, was immoral, and was illegal in many respects. Further, they knew this to be clearly the case at the time!
So, I can't help asking again: What about the banks?????
No fine, however large will "hurt" a corporation. Even bankruptcy and dissolution will not hurt the corporation. In the worst case, those affected are most likely to be small stockholders and line workers without the benefit of golden parachutes.
If the CEOs and board members were given fines and jail, THAT would send a message.
Cheers,
Bruce.
Bruce A. Knack
Silicon Surfers
I remember this guy got on the Rush Limbaugh Show to whine about Obama being anti-business. Then proceeded to lie about no injuries ever were the result of bucky balls. I keep my bucky balls out of reach of children. I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who deliberately mislead the public on the dangers of their products.
A investigation targeting a person in retaliation to its speech? That looks like what happens in third word countries with corrupted administrations. Although in that situation, bribery is usually the way to settle, and I am not convinced it could help here.
The purpose of the limited-liability corporation is that corporate liabilities stop with the company's assets and do not follow into the pockets of the owners.
Certain insurance companies (Lloyds of London) do not have limited liabilities because the owners back the policies with their huge fortunes, giving you assurance the company has the funds to pay out if necessary. Some spectacular tanker and space shot losses about 10 years ago got them into trouble as some people had to sell their estates to make good.
Unless this guy was involved in some massive fraud, this isn't supposed to happen.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
To what extent is this politically motivated because of the dearth of rare earth metals? Maybe all the hard disk manufacturers set their lobbyists to crack down on this businessman so they'd have less price competition.
What he needs to do is counter sue the dumb ass parents that gave the things to their children for loss of $ related to their failure to heed warnings on the package and the government for failing to educate parents to read warnings on the label. After all it's the government that runs the public schools...
*It's not what you can do for the Dark Side but what the Dark Side can do for you!*
Like these? http://www.amazon.com/216-Neodymium-5mm-Sphere-Magnets/dp/B00EI846PK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1378002899&sr=8-1&keywords=sphere+magnets
Sounds like there are at least $10 trillion we should be looking at some bankers for.
Wow. People are really interested in the law and how it affects human when it disrupts a white guy's ability to make money. We should be very concerned about this.
Why aren't they banned too?
http://www.bakersfieldnow.com/news/local/Kylie-Rose-Ricards-220881061.html
To do something right, you often have to roll up your sleeves and get busy.
Sorry for Threadjacking, but I need to know: Who's Winning?
Someone, please respond with the correct answer. And mods, please mod that person to +5 so everyone can skip this entire article.
Garbage titles like "guess who's winning?" do not belong here if nobody bothers to say who's actually winning...
He marketed a product not fit for children. But there are no adults in the U.S.A.
apparently a spherical neodynium magnet is a source immense 300 year electrical power or something, otherwise who the heck would care about a magnet. unless the child swallowed a chunk of steel i dont even see an ingestion problem, if your kid is eating magnets and steel then he's probably a DC motor thats thrown a coil.
I have a Rowenta clothes/ clothing iron. On page 4 of the manual, it clearly states:
Warning! Never iron clothes while they are being worn.
Being a subgenius, I have followed that advice. I also bought the cheaper irons, figuring there was little benefit from buying (I'm not making this up!) a "Digital" iron.
What is wrong with "you conducted the actions of the company, you were the company."
You have no idea how many corporation CEO's and boot licks I would love to apply that to.
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
This makes the owners of gun companies libel. About time.
Undetectable Steganography? Yep, there's an app fo
Sounds like McDonalds was doing it right. I guess the woman that burned herself was unfit to experience coffee. Are you?
Abstract:
Hot beverages such as tea, hot chocolate, and coffee are frequently served at temperatures between 160 degrees F (71.1 degrees C) and 185 degrees F (85 degrees C). Brief exposures to liquids in this temperature range can cause significant scald burns. However, hot beverages must be served at a temperature that is high enough to provide a satisfactory sensation to the consumer.
This paper presents an analysis to quantify hot beverage temperatures that balance limiting the potential scald burn hazard and maintaining an acceptable perception of adequate product warmth...
Recent data from the literature defines the consumer preferred drinking temperature of coffee. A metric accommodates the thermal effects of both scald hazard and product taste to identify an optimal recommended serving temperature. The burn model shows the standard exponential dependence of injury level on temperature.
The preferred drinking temperature of coffee is specified in the literature as 140+/-15 degrees F (60+/-8.3 degrees C) for a population of 300 subjects.
A linear (with respect to temperature) figure of merit merged the two effects to identify an optimal drinking temperature of approximately 136 degrees F (57.8 degrees C). The analysis points to a reduction in the presently recommended serving temperature of coffee to achieve the combined result of reducing the scald burn hazard and improving customer satisfaction.
Calculating the optimum temperature for serving hot beverages.
Burns, The Journal of the International Society for Burn Injuries, August 2008
... is that other companies that sell magnetic balls outside of the United States will continue to do so, and will sell them to American consumers via international mail. I believe, in fact, there are several companies that are profiting off of Buckyballs' demise in this manner.
So the net effect is that (1) people will still be able to buy magnetic balls in America (2) a foreign company gets to profit instead of an American one, which hurts (albeit insignificantly) our economy.
The CPSC needs to deal with actual product safety issues, not parental responsibility issues.
Hmmm....how about fascism?
Keep Oleanders around the house. Your kiddo will only eat them once :/
Maybe we can sue God ( if you're of the religous sort ) for creating such hazardous things without warning labels :/
I know the government is ignoring it's own judicial ruling that "corporations are people" because it's convenient for them, but it would be nice if this set a precedent to allow individuals of other institutions (say, hedge fund managers) to be liable.
Wow, here I am being that old guy, but I have to say it: These kids nowadays are a bunch of pussies.
Somehow, as a child, I survived chemistry sets, dissecting kits, a lead melting kit (with cowboy molds and, likely, lead paint), a wood-burning iron, my uncle's cigars and every other adult's cigarettes, all sorts of now illegal fireworks and amateur bomb-making, and a go-cart. Most of those while my age was in the single digits. Not to mention that we somehow managed to cross the street after school without the state forcing traffic to slow to a crawl, (and we did walk to school). When I was in high school, we had "open" lunch, and two smoke breaks. Can you imagine that kind of freedom given to teenagers today? I won't even mention arranged "play dates" - ugh.
And we see what kind of allergy prone, germ- and tobacco-phobic, conservative hipster wanna-be, unrebellious young adults that have resulted, and the conservative era they've bequeathed us all. At this point, you can see why parents would prefer that the state decide for them that their children cannot play with magnets.
-- sudon't
Air-ride Equipped
Except for a decades long fear of magnets acquired during the time of floppy disks, they sound like a lot of fun.
Maybe they should have been painted with something that tasks really bad so no one would eat more than one.
Everyone in America (except those in Guantanamo) can ultimately have their day in court when accused by the Government. The dirty little secret is that the Government can utterly destroy you without doing so.
This is the US American disease called "sue-itis". Can happen in Europe ( think of the French guy who is being held responsible & put on trial for his company having sold noxious breast implantates to thousands of women ), but rarely.
Religous speak to God. Insane are spoken to by God. When all shut up, one can finally hear Shostakovich in peace
How in their right mind could ANYONE say this is good? If this precedent is set, who do you think they;'ll go after next? That's right, the average working stiff collecting a paycheck at some company he has no involvement with policywise. Work at an auito plant? maybe install the car door locks? better get insurance.. if "somebody has an accident and the door opened" it's YOU they'll go after for mega millions, buddy.. No more beer money for you...
Incidentally, I think those buckyballs ARE dangerous, because too many of the people that buy them are careless slobs and leave them around their toddlers..
is comprised of individuals that make bad decisions, and are not always motivated with the public's best interests in mind, sometimes are incompetent, sometimes just plain evil.
With a corporation, at least you get to know THE NAMES OF THE PEOPLE RESPONSIBLE FOR DECISIONS.
With the government, people are AOK to just let it go as "the government did it".
Well, we need to know WHO is responsible within the organization that's made the decisions. They need to be under scrutiny, they need to be held accountable, and their names need to be spoken/reported. THOSE people should NOT have a right to relative anonymity. They work for US, not the other way around, which is the problem with government, and why people get pissed off and want to slash and burn it at every opportunity.
Journalism used to be comprised of people who actually did some investigative reporting. Now all we have is regurgitation, and a lot of unanswered questions, and a dumbed-down public.
So when do some pharma execs get charged with murder? They knowingly let products onto the market knowing full well they would kill people.
Maybe this gang is too young to remember Dan Aykroyd and his SNL skits like: http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/irwin-mainway/n8641/
Whose fault it is when it was clearly labeled that it was not supposed to be for kids
http://www.wikisup.com/top-10-highest-paid-actors/
If they ban Buckyballs when are they going to ban Walmart/Kmart/etc selling quart containers of copper BB's for bb guns or tiny pellet's for pellet rifles, or paintballs for that batter, all which are small and any mong kid will swallow as well.
this entire situation is just stupid.
BB's have been sold for decades, I remember buying BB's that came in what looked like quart milk container jugs back in the 70's and 80's and having BB gun fights "war" in the backyard shooting each other with daisy bb guns in the ass. And doing capture the flag type runs in '76-82 with bb guns.
hurt like hell and left little bruises if you didn't wear jeans and long sleeve shirt, but even today you don't see government banning bb's
and hell you don't even have to be over 18 to buy BB's, my son buys BB's all the time and he's 14.
only difference between bb's and buckyballs is buckyballs are magnets... so what, they don't want kids to learn about magnets?
cause they can definitely buy bb's at any age.
The first time I saw that label on a blow dryer I almost lost it, Take the damn labels off, If you’re really that stupid you don't belong in the gene pool. At four years of age I had a "Little Golden Book" (remember those?) featuring Donald Duck shoving a knife into a toaster, receptacle, lamp socket with the lightning bolts, glowing skeleton inside a silhouette, ya know, obvious results, Donald frazzled feathers spread out on his back with whiffs of smoke rising. Well I sure figured out that those were not good things to do and you didn't have to know how to read to get the message. I do not want to sound like a Nazi but our gene pool seriously needs a life guard, natural selection is now inoperative, Medical science with all the miracles and rewards, wonderful as it is has been circumventing Darwin for almost a century now, whats happening to our kids? The ever rising incidence of food allergies, ADHD, birth defects, asthma, neuro developmental disorders,autism. Blame it on pollution, chemistry, modern mass growing & food production these all sound like a good place to place the blame what is always left out, our egos and aspirations to preserve what would have been an unviable life. When I was born a infant to some degree had to prove itself of genetic viability through survival. Now when a life in reality is not viable what do we do... get ego's involved get the lawyers out, "Who's fault is this?" they cry! somebody will pay!!!! It's nobody’s "fault" it's nature way to fix the unrepairable, Nothing is always perfect! but no....It can't be the creator's better merciful choice NO It's got to be somebody's fault! enough Dollars will always make it right!!!! So we have infirm genes which should have been repaired through natural selection running amok, diluting our species ability develop successful genetic material for us to evolve, adapt and survive. Just trying to show 1 possible rational observation, I am a man of spirit and conscience, not an aspiring Nazi, sorry if it ruffles some feathers.
"In Every Life The Time Comes To Grab The Bull By The Tail And Face The Situation" W.C.Fields
You are fucking retarded, kill your self.
Do not know this or you will DIE in there again for ever.
While I agree that the product was not defective, and that banning was out of proportion to the scale of the problem, there was a potential for harm if they were given to children (not that they were marketed in that way). There have been a number of incidents in the past with other magnetic toys.
The message is clear. America hates people who do business in America. America hates people who eat raw food in America. America hates people who capture rain water in a watertank. America hates people who grow Tomatoes. America hates people who read the constitution or books that aren't the Bible. America hates people who explain themselves during political campaigns. America hates people who spend money on Oil that isn't American. America hates people who call them out on their lies. America will torture people they don't like much. America will kill people on their "list" with a drone. America will explode your house and say "whoops, sorry about that, it's all just a part of how wars work".
Basically what America wants is to be left alone. There there America, you can have all the poverty, impoverishment, and pipdreams you want, just as soon as you make the rest of the world hate you back as much as you hate it.
O.o
So I guess this is an unintended consequence that companies are people, from a purely political point of view.
no matter how good it is, it is human nature always wants to make things better