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Students Hack School-Issued iPads Within One Week

Hugh Pickens DOT Com writes "Los Angeles Unified School District started issuing iPads to its students this school year, as part of a $30 million deal with Apple. Now Sam Sanders reports at NPR that less than a week after getting their iPads, high school students have found a way to bypass software blocks on the devices that limit what websites the students can use. The students are getting around software that lets school district officials know where the iPads are, what the students are doing with them at all times and lets the district block certain sites, such as social media favorites like Facebook. 'They were bound to fail,' says Renee Hobbs, who's been a skeptic of the iPad program from the start. 'There is a huge history in American education of being attracted to the new, shiny, hugely promising bauble and then watching the idea fizzle because teachers weren't properly trained to use it and it just ended up in the closet.' The rollout of the iPads might have to be delayed as officials reassess access policies. Right now, the program is still in Phase 1, with fewer than 15,000 iPads distributed. 'I'm guessing this is just a sample of what will likely occur on other campuses once this hits Twitter, YouTube or other social media sites explaining to our students how to breach or compromise the security of these devices,' says Steven Zipperman. 'I want to prevent a "runaway train" scenario when we may have the ability to put a hold on the roll-out.' The incident has prompted questions about overall preparations for the $1-billion tablet initiative."

240 of 375 comments (clear)

  1. well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Good thing they didn't waste $1 billion on teachers or books.

    1. Re:well by TWiTfan · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well, at least the kids are learning something from their iPads, though it's not the lessons the schools intended.

      --
      The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
    2. Re:well by interkin3tic · · Score: 5, Insightful
      One lesson everyone can take away from this is that trying to lock down devices for patronizing reasons is foolish. Surprisingly, it appears the schools are at least sort of getting that message:

      "So we talked to students, and we asked them, 'Why did you do this?' And in many cases, they said, 'You guys are just locking us out of too much stuff.' " He says, after talking with students, that the Los Angeles Unified School District's iPad policy probably should be changed, allowing for some social media and music streaming sites.

      The memo from a sublinked article suggests that concerns for safety were the reasons the devices were supposed to be locked down. Can't have kids getting on facebook: they might meet up with child molesters and get raped and killed!

      I suspect their concern for avoiding that scenario was mainly "... and then WE'D BE SUED!!!" So perhaps they should have gone the permission slip route and only given out ipads to kids whose parents agreed that the parents are the parents and if anything bad happens to the children in connection with the ipads, or if they caught their kids looking at nudity (and subsequently were utterly scarred for life), that was on the parents and not something they could sue over. This however is not a lesson that school districts ever seem to learn.

    3. Re:well by swamp_ig · · Score: 2

      No permission slip would make any difference to being sued.

    4. Re:well by ebh · · Score: 2, Funny

      Don't use Facebook. You'll get pregnant. And die.

    5. Re:well by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 2

      I can't see them being locked out of Facebook being the reason. Facebook would be blocked at the proxy, as would all of the interesting parts of the WWW, and any file-sharing protocol or chat app.

      I suspect that the kids just wanted Angry Birds so they could dick about instead of doing work, they weren't allowed, so they fuck up the devices at any opportunity because they're petulant and spoiled little brats, just like all kids. What really needs to happen is teachers, and their lessons, need to be engaging and interesting, and for that you need good teachers. For good teachers, you need good teaching wages. Fundamentally, they should have scrapped this program and given teachers a 20% pay rise across the board instead.

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    6. Re:well by Nyder · · Score: 2

      Well, at least the kids are learning something from their iPads, though it's not the lessons the schools intended.

      Still a valuable lessons to be learned here. You give kids rules, much like adults and they are going to find away around it, and that kids are smarter then the people running the schools.

      --
      Be seeing you...
    7. Re:well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Not only that, but men can get preggers from FB too!

    8. Re:well by bhcompy · · Score: 1

      Funny thing, LAUSD is among the upper echelons of districts in per student spending in the state, yet they rank well below the nearby suburban districts that are in the mid or low range of student spending in things like avg SAT scores, graduation rates, etc. It's not a money problem. It's a parenting problem and a demographic problem(almost need separate school systems for the amount of ESL burdening the educators)

    9. Re:well by Tarlus · · Score: 1

      Looks like the schools are learning valuable lessons, too.

      --
      /* No Comment */
    10. Re:well by P-niiice · · Score: 1

      a whole new generation of jailbreak professionals

    11. Re:well by P-niiice · · Score: 1

      Why would you suspect that? Whether they actually do the work or not, they still would want to use the IPads for some of their own uses. I applaud them for getting around the blocks. Teachers need to use that ingenuity.

    12. Re:well by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      ..? at the proxy? not necessarely.

      you see, they might want to block what they can do with them while at home too. but then again if kids were bringing devices home that someone else had remote admin to..

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    13. Re:well by OrangeTide · · Score: 2

      Maybe he went to public school. I know I was too busy circumventing the security on the Apple II's to learn basic grammar, or punctuation.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    14. Re:well by sirber · · Score: 1

      Don't use Facebook. You'll get pregnant. And die.

      It's called life ;)

      --
      Be or ben't
    15. Re:well by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 2

      Sure it could, if done right.

      You can look at it as a contract: "We release this device to the custody of the child *IF* you assume all responsibility and waive any liability on the part of the school board."

      It may not prevent all suits, but normally that would be a binding contract and stop most of them.

    16. Re:well by Karzz1 · · Score: 1

      I applaud them for getting around the blocks. Teachers need to use that ingenuity.

      Realistically, one kid should be applauded. The remaining students were just copycats.

      --
      Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.
    17. Re:well by Feyshtey · · Score: 2

      So your reaction to this is not irritation that kids are hacking free devices that were intended to be solely for their education. It's irritation that school system is even trying to issolate the use of the devices to only education.

      WTF is wrong with you?

      Essentially you're saying that kids will be kids, and lets just give them free shit to do whatever it is they want to do with it.

      How about the cost to repair all the damage that the users do to the devices after cracking them? How about all the aps with malware they can install? Or the viruses (although limiited on IPads)? It doesnt take any skill at all to follow a YouTube video to crack the security. It takes even less to do shit that you should never do because of pure ignorance that makes the device unstable at best, or a doorstop at worst.

      If you want to buy your kid something they choose to fuck up, that's your problem. When you want the state to buy it with tax payer funding, and then fix it because you think your kid should have the freedom to fuck it up, then it's my problem.

      This is all before you even discuss the value of them having the device to further their education to begin with.

      --
      "But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it,..." - Nancy Pelosi
    18. Re:well by sosume · · Score: 1

      I'd wager a large bet that it was one of the parents or other older relatives who jailbroke the first device. Perhaps even someone related to an Apple engineer. And the other kids follow the example. How many kids did you have in high school who were able to break encryption? As companies have grown up, hacking nowadays requires a lot more skill, knowledge and specialized equipment than in the 70's or 80's.

    19. Re:well by DJ+Particle · · Score: 1

      True...wasn't there a kerfluffle in Pennsylvania a few years ago regarding MacBooks and remove camera access?

    20. Re:well by DJ+Particle · · Score: 1

      er.. remoTe... didn't catch the error until after I hit Submit

    21. Re:well by Feyshtey · · Score: 3, Interesting

      First, you cant enforce a contract that relinquishes your rights. If the school board fails to impliment policies that give "reasonable" protection to the child, then the contract is unenforcable. The trick is defining what "reasonable" is. Also, you cannot assume that parents understand the technology or the risks associated. You cannot ask them to enter into a contract without fully disclosing those risks, or the possible punishments. This is particularly important when you propose to use these devices in largely low education, low income populations like L.A., where providing these devices is meant to be a boost to kids who would not otherwise be able to obtain them.

      Second, lets say I refuse to sign the petition slip because I dont want to risk me taking the heat for what my kid does, or maybe because I dont want my kid to have access to a device that allows him or her to do things I do not approve of. Does that mean that the school must have a different curriculum that is paper-based? Or a different set of systems that can only be accessed from school? Does my kid have to do homework differently, turn in homework differently, or take tests differently? Can the school ensure that my child is not at a disadvantage because of these differences?

      How long do you think it would take for a parent of a failing student who didnt have an iPad/laptop to sue the school for unfair treatment. How does the school defend against that?

      --
      "But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it,..." - Nancy Pelosi
    22. Re:well by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      You're making a lot of straw man arguments there. I'm only saying that their reasoning is stupid, not that whatever the kids do with the ipads is just fine and dandy.

    23. Re:well by allamericancomp · · Score: 1

      Just sounds like school districts like usual not well though out security and infrastructure setup. I know tons of schools with ipads and no issues.

    24. Re:well by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "First, you cant enforce a contract that relinquishes your rights."

      Who said anything about rights? I stated that it should eliminate MOST suits, which tend to be over petty things that have little to do with "rights".

      "If the school board fails to impliment policies that give 'reasonable' protection to the child, then the contract is unenforcable. The trick is defining what 'reasonable' is."

      Since schools are in the business of education, not censorship, I would say that internet blocks are far from "reasonable". Hell, (according to TFA we're talking about high school here) half of them have phones with unrestricted internet access anyway. Who do they think they're "protecting"???

      Another very big issue is one that has been known for many years: any attempt to block "unsuitable" material will also block a lot of suitable and relevant material... often things that are useful for research of school assignments.

      "This is particularly important when you propose to use these devices in largely low education, low income populations like L.A., where providing these devices is meant to be a boost to kids who would not otherwise be able to obtain them. "

      Right. Some favor. Give poor kids access to devices that block them off from much of the culture their richer neighbors can access. Somehow I have a bit of trouble endorsing that idea.

      "Second, lets say I refuse to sign the petition slip because I dont want to risk me taking the heat for what my kid does, or maybe because I dont want my kid to have access to a device that allows him or her to do things I do not approve of."

      I was thinking about that very scenario. But here's the thing: you can't force the kids to take the devices if their parents object on religious or moral grounds anyway. So that's a non-argument. They ALWAYS have the right to refuse on those grounds, permission slips or not. That can (and has) led to tension between parents and public schools. Nothing is changed.

      "Does that mean that the school must have a different curriculum that is paper-based?"

      I don't know. Does it? I repeat: I don't think anything significant has changed.

      "Does my kid have to do homework differently, turn in homework differently, or take tests differently?"

      If you're Amish, or have other religious/moral objections to what the school is doing? Yes. This has been established for many years. If the parents and the schools simply can't agree, they can have their own community schools or home-schooling.

      "Can the school ensure that my child is not at a disadvantage because of these differences? "

      See the paragraph I wrote just above. That's pretty much up to the school, isn't it? Again: these problems have always existed. What is new here?

      "How long do you think it would take for a parent of a failing student who didnt have an iPad/laptop to sue the school for unfair treatment. How does the school defend against that?"

      If the parent refused, in writing, to let the child have one, what kind of suit do they have? Seriously. They might sue but if any court is halfway rational they won't win. It might even be tossed out before it even gets started.

      There is no guarantee, in law or anywhere else, that a school must pass your child if you refuse to let your child have relevant study or research materials. The school is not the parent here. People must have some responsibility for their own actions.

    25. Re:well by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 3, Interesting

      >Well, at least the kids are learning something from their iPads, though it's not the lessons the schools intended.

      Back in the day I spent my pre-teens breaking the copy protection on Apple 2 games. Probably not what my parents had in mind, but it was excellent technical training and now I have a well paid career designing chips, crypto systems and related things.

      Breaking into security systems is a superbly educational thing to do. It requires a depth of understanding of the systems not commonly found in text books, it requires analytical thinking and the lessons learned often stick. If you spent your teens doing that, then the low level subjects they teach in school are not going to feel like a major challenge.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    26. Re:well by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      >How long do you think it would take for a parent of a failing student who didnt have an iPad/laptop to sue the school for unfair treatment. How does the school defend against that?

      So as long as you can think of something that 'might' go wrong, you can avoid doing things well. Victory!

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    27. Re:well by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      First, you cant enforce a contract that relinquishes your rights.

      I bought a house in a gated neighborhood. The deed contains conditions. You telling me that the neighborhood association won't act to keep me from breaking the deed restrictions? That's a contract that limits my property rights.

      Can the school ensure that my child is not at a disadvantage because of these differences?

      If you as a parent are putting arbitrary limits on what the school can do with your child, it's the schools fault when your child is at a disadvantage? What happened to your responsibility in this process? I suspect you would have your child at the front of the line for free breakfasts and lunches (even during the summer) because we all know that a well fed child is a better student and it is the school's responsibility to educate your child, not yours.

      How long do you think it would take for a parent of a failing student who didnt have an iPad/laptop to sue the school for unfair treatment. How does the school defend against that?

      "We offered him one and you didn't want us to give it to him."

    28. Re:well by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 2

      The kids have smart phones. They don't need a locked down ishiny.

      They should do what managers of open access systems have always done - Assume that the used system is dirty and image the computer back to default at suitable times.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    29. Re:well by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      Perhaps, but the fact that the administrator guy was recommending Los Angeles Unified School District make changes to their policy suggests that they do have control. Wouldn't make much sense for him to advise that if it wasn't something they could do.

    30. Re: well by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "You have an outdated stereotype of the Amish."

      No, I don't.

      How many of them go to public schools that are just like the rest of Pennsylvania schools? That was my only point. Many of them (maybe not all) have objections to some of the things the PA school board does.

      I know all about Rumspringa, and that the Amish are not "anti-technology". They just pick and choose what technology they want to embrace.

    31. Re: well by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "You have an outdated stereotype of the Amish."

      I'm not sure I explained myself well. I did not mean that the Amish would object in this particular instance. I simply used them as an example of a group that often objects to things done in public schools.

    32. Re:well by Feyshtey · · Score: 1

      "We offered him one and you didn't want us to give it to him."

      Which, combined with the earlier argument about contracts, could be considered coercing the parents into a contract.
      "You don't have to sign the permission slip, but if your kid fails, well, that'd be a real shame wouldn't it... "

      Contract void.

      --
      "But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it,..." - Nancy Pelosi
    33. Re:well by Feyshtey · · Score: 1

      I'm only saying that their reasoning is stupid, ...

      Exactly.

      You're saying that it's stupid to expect the child to use this free device strictly to further their education, and instead this device should be considered as suitable for schoolwork and for general amusement. By stating that it logically follows that the state then takes on the burden of repairing or replacing said device if from no other impact than substantially more wear and tear from extended use.

      No matter how you cut it (asshole kids hacking the device, breaking the device, infecting the device, or just using it to the point of failure), you are stating that because so many kids are assholes (judging from the pure volume that hacked the devices in the first week) that it will break it anyway, so just give up and let them abuse this free tool for their education for whatever use they see fit, no matter how improper, and that I should pay more in taxes to maintain it.

      Explain how getting to Facebook or Twitter or enables a student to further their education? Unless the lesson plan is covering narcissism or obsessive compulsive behavior I cant see how those would be relevant. Web filters have been in use in business for a couple of decades. They really aren't that hard to maintain, and there are companies that do it as their bread and butter. It's not at all hard to allow access to mundane materials one might use for research while blocking video game and porn sites. Its not rocket science, and claiming that doing so is a hindrance to the learning of a kid is either desperate or ignorant.

      --
      "But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it,..." - Nancy Pelosi
    34. Re:well by Feyshtey · · Score: 1

      Who said anything about rights?

      You did as soon as you suggested having parents enter a contract to which they are likely ignorant of the consequences.

      Since schools are in the business of education, not censorship, I would say that internet blocks are far from "reasonable". Hell, (according to TFA we're talking about high school here) half of them have phones with unrestricted internet access anyway. Who do they think they're "protecting"???

      And if a parent chooses to purchase that phone for their kid, they obviously take any risks associated. That's their choice. It is not something pushed by the state. And not giving a kid access to anything they might choose to indulge in is not censorship. It is not the responsibility of any school to ensure that any kid can access any material. In fact I would argue that damn near any parent in the US would be able to cite several examples of material they better not ever find their kid's school providing.

      Another very big issue is one that has been known for many years: any attempt to block "unsuitable" material will also block a lot of suitable and relevant material... often things that are useful for research of school assignments.

      This is a bullshit argument and you know it. We're not talking about the launch codes for nukes, or the medical diagnosis for a disorder reported in 1 in 2 billion patients. If it's mundane information that's relevant to a kid's research it's probably printed in about 5000 different sources. Not to mention that if the research is part of the curriculum don't you think perhaps, just maybe, that the school already has exceptions for that research? Or maybe, just maybe, more than one kid will report they are being blocked from their assigned research?

      Right. Some favor. Give poor kids access to devices that block them off from much of the culture their richer neighbors can access. Somehow I have a bit of trouble endorsing that idea.

      By that reasoning you have a problem with the rich kids being able to watch paid cable channels. And go see the newest movies, in 3D. Or buying the hottest new albums, and having 5000 songs on their iTunes account. The state is obviously blocking all those underprivileged kids from all that culture.

      It's not the responsibility of the state to grant access to Facebook any more so than it is to ensure that the kids have access to the latest Lil' Wayne album or Kim kardashian's sex tapes. You could attempt to argue that these are equally necessary "culture", but any rational person would laugh in your face just as quickly as when you argued they must have access to Facebook at taxpayer expense.

      I don't know. Does it? I repeat: I don't think anything significant has changed

      You just argued that it's oppressive censorship to block a kid from all the (undefined) things they cant get to for their research. And yet if a kid doesn't have an iPad they might have to *gasp* go to a library. And that is not significantly more oppressive?

      If the parent refused, in writing, to let the child have one, what kind of suit do they have? Seriously. They might sue but if any court is halfway rational they won't win. It might even be tossed out before it even gets started.

      Can you honestly argue that this would be the most stupid case to go to a jury, or that has actually succeeded? There are kids winning lawsuits stating their rights are violated because they are asked to learn the Pledge of Allegiance, and you don't think entering into signed contracts or risk unequal learning potential qualifies?

      --
      "But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it,..." - Nancy Pelosi
  2. My kid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    has one of these iPads (albeit in another state in another school district). I'm not sure if it's the same "security" but she says the kids at her school quickly identified the culprit, which was the profile that was set up for them. This isn't hacking, this is knowing how an iPad is setup, FYI. All that needs to happen is that the kid figures it out and deletes it.

    If my kid "accidentally" deletes the profile, all that'll happen is that she'll get a talking to.

    1. Re: My kid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Considering profiles can be password locked and undeletable I find this hilariously sad.

      (And with ios 7 they can be prevented from being reset/imaged too)

    2. Re:My kid by Delusion_ · · Score: 2

      I was in high school when Macintoshes were new; they had a laser printer and several dot matrix printers. Laser printing was more expensive at the time, but the queue was shorter due to less people on it and shorter print times. Our computer lab teacher would watch us, literally right over our shoulders, as we'd try to bypass his security (like you, I think "hack" is too grand a word here) and permissions. By the end of the second day, my two best friends and I and a couple of our other friends all had boot disks with LaswerWriter permissions. The teacher had a great attitude that really fostered learning the technology, and was consistent with him watching over our shoulders while we tried to do things we weren't supposed to be able to do (and in every case I can remember, succeeded): he didn't care as long as you didn't make more work for him by breaking something. He was content to learn what we were up to. We had pretty much carte blanche in the computer lab to do whatever we wanted as long as we were learning something new every day, and we'd write a brief summary report at the end of the week. One day, we learned how to hex edit savegames for some old RPG, using the same sorts of techniques we were using on our C64s at home, but with a proper hex editor rather than a C64 sector editor. They were saved in something weird like octal reversed digits instead of the standard reversed hex or forward hex. I can't recall which game it was, only that it had multiple windows up. A quick Google image search doesn't show me anything familiar.

    3. Re:My kid by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2

      It sounds like the school districts (either because their IT staff are monumental idiots, or, probably more likely, because nobody budgeted in anything for "device management" because 'Hey, iPads are easy!') were just using Exchange activesync restrictions, which are... more or less worth what you pay. Delete the (probably boring) school email account, and away you go. By Fucking Design.

      The various Apple-blessed 'MDM' services (either 3rd party contract types, or in-house on the ridiculous hardware that Apple calls 'servers' these days) are incrementally more robust; but iPads are fundamentally aimed at 'user-is-owner' scenarios, with Apple occasionally throwing a crumb and a contemptuous sneer in the direction of anything else.

      (Incidentally, that's one thing that surprises me about 'WinRT'. Microsoft, fuck man, You Could Have Had The Tablet With Native Active Directory Support. But you didn't. You voluntarily removed that feature. Are you totally insane? That's one area, at least, where you could have blown the pitiful excuses for 'device management' in the competing ecosystems to hell and back; but no. Not a default, not even an option you can buy... What were you thinking?)

    4. Re:My kid by Nerdfest · · Score: 2

      iPads are fundamentally aimed at 'user-is-owner' scenarios

      In most cases they appear to aimed more squarely at the 'Apple is owner' scenario.

    5. Re:My kid by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2

      True, true. I really should have said that Apple is the owner; but makes it very difficult for its vassals to enforce any restrictions on their vassals. Everyone is supposed to be a direct vassal of Apple, with only the most token support given to situations where somebody wants to farm out a large quantity of iPads to people under their organizational control.

    6. Re:My kid by Shadow99_1 · · Score: 1

      From my time as the network admin (and defacto director of technology as the 'highest' official IT position) for a school district, I can guess how things went. The rest of the administrators likely had no clue that it even takes people to setup the devices when they arrive, let alone thought to budget for such.

      When I was working for the school (pre-tablet days) they wanted to replace two very old 'mobile labs' of laptops that could be moved around rather than relying on static machines taking up lots of space in general classrooms. I looked at current options and suggested a two part plan: Netbooks (to lower overall costs) and a campus-wide wireless network. The plan was approved for the netbooks and I assumed was for the wireless as well, however I was kept busy planning for the deployment of the netbooks with the vendor and couldn't keep an eye on the wireless part that was needed to really make it work. Then the netbooks arrived and I asked about the status of the wireless (which was supposed to be handled by a contractor in my plan), since I had not heard anything about that end of things. Well it turns out they hadn't bothered to approve that part as it was 'expensive' for something 'unneeded'. I then had to explain the netbooks were near useless without wireless connectivity. So they gave me a $300 budget and said 'Do something about it'. So yeah... great wireless solution for $300. Definitely not the planned for campus wide setup I had planned.

      --
      we are all invisible unless we choose otherwise
    7. Re:My kid by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      If I had a kid and she did that I'd give her a high five. Children should be congratulated for outsmarting control freak adults.

    8. Re:My kid by Delusion_ · · Score: 1

      Yep, we played with early versions of Timbuktu, too. Our favourite gag was, once a week or so, was to have the computer "talk" to the user via Timbuktu dialogue. Most people weren't computer savvy (and those who were certainly didn't have Macs at home), so the idea that the computer really is talking to you when it greets you AS the computer was no more or less alien than the idea of a person messaging you.

      "This is your Macintosh. How are you?"

      And it would go from there...

  3. I heard from a teacher in NC by sandytaru · · Score: 5, Insightful

    - whose school district had gotten all the kids iPads. She was complaining that the new toys, in conjunction with all the stupid assessments she had to do, had put her weeks behind the curriculum because she had to spend all her time helping her third graders learn to use the tablets. So I'm sure the teachers in CA who got stuck with this are frustrated about this and probably the ones who are now on delay are greatly relieved.

    Personally, I think that money could better be spent on good old fashioned computer labs. A good student PC is a heck of a lot cheaper, and these kids need to learn to type on a real keyboard or else they're going to be at a huge disadvantage compared to their peers who do.

    --
    Occasionally living proof of the Ballmer peak.
    1. Re:I heard from a teacher in NC by The+MAZZTer · · Score: 1

      I'm sure people once thought students who only learned to type on PCs would be at a disadvantage compared to those who learned to type on a typewriter.

      Maybe... but maybe not.

    2. Re:I heard from a teacher in NC by khallow · · Score: 1

      I'm sure people once thought students who only learned to type on PCs would be at a disadvantage compared to those who learned to type on a typewriter.

      How is this supposed to be similar? A tablet does has some role for data entry, but only when nothing better is available within arm's reach. It's really a device for delivering information than for creating it.

    3. Re:I heard from a teacher in NC by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      It is also the question of "what do you want to teach them, really?".

      Spending a lot of time teaching a third-grader to us a tablet means only one thing to me: the software they have to use is bad. Tablets are so easy to use, so easy to figure out, that if you have to spend significant time teaching, there's something really bad in the software they have to use.

      iPads and other tablets are not for teaching about computers. They can be really useful for presentation of teaching materials, or as e-book readers, and stuff like that.

      They're not for teaching how to use a computer. If you want to use them to teach computer stuff, like typing or programming, you've got the wrong tool.

    4. Re:I heard from a teacher in NC by aaaaaaargh! · · Score: 1

      I doubt that. People might have complained about the quality of PC keyboards but that's another issue. Typewriter vs. PC with good keyboard doesn't matter, what matters is whether you learn touch typing or not. Being able to type fast and reliably without looking at the keyboard is a huge advantage - I wish I had learned that at school.

      Now here is the big question: What skill you can learn on an iPad that you cannot learn on a laptop? Learning how to perform multi-touch gestures?

    5. Re:I heard from a teacher in NC by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      Typewriter vs. PC with good keyboard doesn't matter, what matters is whether you learn touch typing or not.

      And you'd be surprised how little that actually matters.

      I've been sitting in front of keyboards since I was 11. I don't type in a way that is formally 'touch typing', but I can type as fast (if not faster) than most people anyway.

      If you use a keyboard long enough, you'll figure out how to type at a 'good enough' speed, and if you don't put exactly the 'right' finger on the right key ... well, it still gets typed.

      It's not that hard to piece together how to do it. And given time, you'll be able to type without looking for the most part.

      Now here is the big question: What skill you can learn on an iPad that you cannot learn on a laptop?

      I doubt very much it's a specific skill, more that you have a device which can access the material. They seem to be treated more like 'smart textbooks' than a dumb entry machine you're meant to learn to type on.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    6. Re: I heard from a teacher in NC by techprophet · · Score: 1

      They're easy for us to use because we're familiar with the paradigms. Third graders have a problem with them for the same reason my grandparents do: they're unfamiliar with the paradigms.

    7. Re:I heard from a teacher in NC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      How about a nook, that costs half as much? Seriously!?!

      It's a stupid idea to start with; technology has nothing on poverty, which is in itself, largely a proxy for parental involvement.

      But, given the American approach of throwing money at the problem, let's throw half as much money for the same ill affect.

      There's nothing "American" about it. It's the same old story: You don't want your kids to be a failure, so you go with a winner. IBM. Microsoft. Apple. It's why the idea that "The Marketplace promotes Excellence" is a myth on the same level as the Tooth Fairy. Not just in the USA and not just in government. Everywhere. Public, private, American, Latvian and so forth.

      Once you have critical mass and formed a positive feedback loop, Nothing Succeeds Like Success. You can charge higher prices, give lousier service, make your own rules, and even buy your own laws and the market will just eat it up, because the bulk of the market is going to go for the "safe" choice even over price or quality.

    8. Re:I heard from a teacher in NC by tibman · · Score: 1
      --
      http://soylentnews.org/~tibman
    9. Re: I heard from a teacher in NC by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      In which case maybe the schools should take a small step back, and teach those paradigms first. After that kids can not only easily find their way around the current applications they have to use, but also anything they may encounter in the future.

    10. Re:I heard from a teacher in NC by sandytaru · · Score: 2

      It's not so much a matter of "is your finger on the right key?" but a matter of "are you looking at your monitor, your keyboard, or copying the text of something when you are typing?"

      At minimum, a touch typist needs to be looking at the monitor when they type, and not the keyboard. Someone who is doing data entry will do best when they can look away from the keyboard and type directly from a sheet of paper off to the side, but not everyone is going to be doing data entry so that's not a required skill. By looking at the monitor, however, you're able to catch and correct typos on the fly as well as read through what you've written and adjust before you reach the end of your train of thought.

      For the record, I learned to type fast and furious in Compuserv chat rooms in the 90s, while my high school was still teaching us to type on typewriters. Practice makes perfect.

      --
      Occasionally living proof of the Ballmer peak.
    11. Re:I heard from a teacher in NC by sandytaru · · Score: 1

      All these initiatives to give kids tablets tends to be in poor, underperforming school systems. So I can completely believe that some of the kids had never used a tablet before.

      I'm also inclined to believe that the software was probably poorly designed. Educational companies are some of the worst offenders about not wanting to pay programmers and designers attractive enough wages to get the best and brightest.

      --
      Occasionally living proof of the Ballmer peak.
    12. Re:I heard from a teacher in NC by LordLimecat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Noone uses iPads for any serious amount of data entry or manipulation.

      Their role in business tends to be for shiny-factor, portability, or both. They are somewhat useful as POS units (as those have generally been touchscreen anyways). Thats basically it.

      If you want to train your kids to be cashiers from an early age by getting them involved with iPads @ school, have at it-- just do it on your own dollar.

    13. Re:I heard from a teacher in NC by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      I'm sure people once thought students who only learned to type on PCs would be at a disadvantage compared to those who learned to type on a typewriter.

      Not as much as you'd think - typists were a completely separate profession until the PC came out. You just didn't need strong typing skills in the past as you do today.

      The only real benefit to using a typewriter is that you learn to type accurately without making a mistake (because mistakes a costly). But it never hurt if you had something important to have someone else type it out for you.

      Of course, these days the typist has gone the way of the buggy whip so everyone now has to learn to type - taking a dictation and having someone else type it is a rarity.

    14. Re:I heard from a teacher in NC by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      As long as you can type at a good speed (30+ WPM) without looking at the keyboard, then I think that's generally fast enough. The problem I see with a lot of people is that they can do the 30+ WPM thing, but only if they are looking at the keyboard. This causes all sorts of problems, such as when people thing they are typing in one window or field, but the cursor is actually somewhere else, or a dialog has popped up on the screen. Also, they tend to make more spelling mistakes and typos since you don't catch them when you're actually typing them. This means that you have to go re-read the text after you've already typed it in, whereas someone who was typing while looking at the screen would have seen the errors as they happened, and doesn't have to re-read the whole text to look for errors. So you either end up with errors, or your over all speed slows down because you have to stop and re-read what you're already written every so often. Also, edits take much longer if you're more than a couple backspaces away from fixing the problem.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    15. Re:I heard from a teacher in NC by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      LOL, I refused to waste any high-school credits on a typing class when I'd already been typing well enough for years.

      I can type well enough for my own needs, and I don't need to look at the keys as I do it. The specifics I don't care about.

      I'm largely of the opinion after using a keyboard long enough people will figure it out themselves.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    16. Re:I heard from a teacher in NC by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      Of course, these days the typist has gone the way of the buggy whip so everyone now has to learn to type

      Not really. You gave the reason why learning to type in the past was valuable. It's the cost of making a mistake.

      Once the 'backspace' key appeared with the computer keyboard, the cost of a mistake went to almost zero compared to "move the carriage back, slip in a bit of correction paper, retype the wrong thing, back the carriage up again and retype the right thing." For example, I just started writing a sentence that I didn't know how to end. On a typewriter it would be a new sheet of paper and redo everything that was on it. On the computer it's just delete the mistake and move ahead.

      What people learn today is not "to type", it's "how to use the word processor". Given the absent cost in time of a mistake, even hunt and peck typists can be productive.

    17. Re:I heard from a teacher in NC by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      This is LA. They are critically short of funds for the basics, like books and teachers. Save the computer labs and ipads for when there is an actual education system in place that can function.

    18. Re:I heard from a teacher in NC by Darinbob · · Score: 1, Funny

      The ipad is a tool for training students to become Apple consumers.

    19. Re:I heard from a teacher in NC by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      Yup. I've been through this with 2 children (one my own, one grandchild). The age at which they start comprehending technology is 4. The age by which they've got it down is 5.

      Jean Piaget was completely wrong on child cognitive development and these simple observations are just one of many ways to prove it.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    20. Re: I heard from a teacher in NC by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 1

      In which case maybe the schools should take a small step back, and teach those paradigms first.

      Which is what teachers are having to do, rather than teach the actual material. And being math, reading, science, etc. teachers, not consumer electronics customer support techs, they're not really prepared to do so. So plenty of time and energy is wasted.

      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    21. Re:I heard from a teacher in NC by khallow · · Score: 1

      Well, look at what the previous poster was typing for. Communication. Competently communicating with others is one of the basics and computers connected to the internet are an effective tool for that.

    22. Re: I heard from a teacher in NC by khallow · · Score: 1

      Third graders have a problem with them for the same reason my grandparents do: they're unfamiliar with the paradigms.

      My bet is that any normal human of any age, with reasonable eyesight, manual dexterity, and mental ability is familiar with the paradigms. I would as many others do here, place blame on the implementation of the paradigms.

  4. "They were bound to fail" by Xacid · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Kids bypassing security is a total failure for this program? Come onnnn. If anything it's giving them a reason to want to use them more and learn a little something about technology and security. But I guess they're not satisfied unless they have properly trained obedient creatures, not humans with the ability to think for themselves.

    1. Re:"They were bound to fail" by tantrum · · Score: 1

      agreed.

      While I think that giving out tablets for school use seems like a daft idea, this is the best possible result. Lots of kids doing their own research into how they can make a device suit their needs.

      Might even se some kids learning programming as well... The one item that had the most influence on my careerchoice was probably my HP48 that I spent a great deal of time programming and generally tinkering with.

    2. Re:"They were bound to fail" by Valpis · · Score: 3

      Yes, one student learns how to bypass the security and the rest just follows the instruction like a sheep

      --
      who shot the cat in the hat to experiment is insane
    3. Re:"They were bound to fail" by Charliemopps · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The program was a total failure at conception. There is no benefit to this other than to be able to claim that the school districts new and modern. Imagine how many teachers they could have hired for the cost of this program. I like computers, but they have no place in rudimentary education other than the computer lab.

    4. Re:"They were bound to fail" by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      It's DRM, it'll be circumvented. Surprises me it took them that long (as in, more than a day).

      I recall getting WAP-enabled phones in my university (WAP was a subset of www, a primitive mobile web in a way. Never took on; phones were slow; displays monochrome; very few sites that offered a WAP version; well basically the whole thing sucked). Everyone could get such a phone for cheap, but they were SIM-locked to a network, of the sponsoring provider.

      When I got mine, first stop was a friend who plugged in a cable, ran some software, and SIM-lock gone. Everyone did this.

      This is not really different; just a different technology. They shouldn't be surprised it happened.

    5. Re:"They were bound to fail" by Warbothong · · Score: 1

      Kids bypassing security is a total failure for this program? Come onnnn. If anything it's giving them a reason to want to use them more and learn a little something about technology and security. But I guess they're not satisfied unless they have properly trained obedient creatures, not humans with the ability to think for themselves.

      It only takes one kid to 'learn a little something about technology and security', everyone else can press the resulting "click me to crack" button. Buying $1,000,000,000 worth of iPads just so one kid can learn a little about security, while the rest spend their school time tweeting, would be a total failure.

      I'm not in favor of the program as it's originally intended, but I'm not in favor of this inevitabe crack either.

    6. Re:"They were bound to fail" by Bogtha · · Score: 2

      There is no benefit to this other than to be able to claim that the school districts new and modern.

      What's your basis for this claim? Do you actually know this or are you guessing?

      There's lots of reasons why distributing learning materials electronically has advantages. I shouldn't really need to spell them out on Slashdot. And tablets - particularly iPads - are about as friendly to non-computer users as you can get.

      Now, there may be some very good reasons why this particular rollout was flawed, but the idea of distributing tablets to kids is not inherently flawed. Do you have details on why this particular rollout was flawed?

      --
      Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
    7. Re:"They were bound to fail" by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      But I guess they're not satisfied unless they have properly trained obedient creatures, not humans with the ability to think for themselves.

      These are IPADS; what sort of independence are you expecting? They cant even run an IDE on these things or mess with the bootloader.

      These devices are DESIGNED for a black-box experience, not independent thinking and learning.

    8. Re:"They were bound to fail" by Pikoro · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If this program was to replace all those heavy books, or give them access to the grand sum of human knowledge, then they should have gone for a kindle or sony ebook reader. Load the year's books onto it, and allow wifi internet access. Problem solved.

      --
      "Freedom in the USA is not the ability to do what you want. It is the ability to stop others from doing what THEY want"
    9. Re:"They were bound to fail" by Bogtha · · Score: 1

      Of course the idea is inherently flawed. It is based on the premise that the reason these kids in these poorly performing schools are not learning is because they don't have access to electronic devices and that if they do have access to electronic devices, like the richer kids, they will perform better. The flaws in this premise are so obvious that only a Marxist/socialist progressive can't see them.

      I read all four articles this submission linked to and none of them mentioned this as the motive for the programme. As far as I can tell, it's something you have made up; a straw-man you constructed just so you could knock it down. Can you offer a source that indicates this is their motivation?

      --
      Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
    10. Re:"They were bound to fail" by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

      Yes, they cost $800, they break when you drop them and you're giving them to children. I don't really need any other argument than that.

    11. Re:"They were bound to fail" by Bogtha · · Score: 1

      No, don't dodge my question. You said:

      There is no benefit to this other than to be able to claim that the school districts new and modern.

      Saying that they cost $800 and are fragile does not support this claim. Do you have a basis for this claim or are you just making things up?

      --
      Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
  5. Try that at work by Bucc5062 · · Score: 1

    Students do this and the worst they get is a "Oh behave" and the ipad taken away at the end of the day. I do that with a work computer and I get a nice pink slip. Why do we keep trying to "protect the children" when it seems they are getting pretty good and protecting themselves.

    --
    Life is a great ride, the vehicle doesn't matter
    1. Re:Try that at work by Sarten-X · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The alternative attitude is what happened recently in my hometown, where a student was nearly suspended for possessing "hacking tools" - a Linux live-cd.

      Part of the purpose of schools is to be a safety net, where irresponsible kids can test their limits and, while not getting away with anything fully, they are shielded from the worst repercussions and are given gentle encouragement that they are not supposed to be doing that. Unfortunately, that attitude doesn't mix with the "freedom is doing anything I want" or the "kids should be imprisoned in schools until they are perfect adults" mentalities that are so popular today, and it's made even more complex (as is everything else) by the ever-expanding community boundaries brought about by modern technology.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    2. Re:Try that at work by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      Don't forget the 'students shouldn't be doing anything the school could be blamed for' policy.

  6. Good! by davydagger · · Score: 2

    I also hope they find and disable the software that is spying on them.

    the refrence from my snide comment in case anyone thinks its too tinfoil:
    http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9159278/Pa._school_district_denies_spying_on_students_with_MacBooks

    1. Re:Good! by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      FTS:

      The students are getting around software that lets school district officials know where the iPads are, what the students are doing with them at all times and lets the district block certain sites, such as social media favorites like Facebook.

      Emphasis mine.

      The fact they have such software installed implies the school intends to spy on their students, to be able to see what they're doing.

      That they want to restrict what a student can do is acceptable imo as it's a school issued device. The alternative would be to ask students to get one by themselves. The spying part however, not so good.

    2. Re:Good! by davydagger · · Score: 1

      we need to end this notion, that if someone does you a favor, or spends money on you, they somehow fucking own you, or control what you do with that favor.

      Otherwise all gifts are trojans.

      How much money did they spend on this?

    3. Re:Good! by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      That they want to restrict what a student can do is acceptable imo as it's a school issued device.

      When I was very little, we got school-issued pencils, yet nobody was inventorying whatever naughty pictures I was drawing with them in the privacy of my home.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
  7. In My Day by kevinT · · Score: 1

    It took them a week to hack and iPad.

    Why in my day we .... had punch cards run at the nearby community college using RPG. Must be nice to get that new fangled technology.

    1. Re:In My Day by barlevg · · Score: 1

      Why in my day we .... had punch cards run at the nearby community college using RPG. Must be nice to get that new fangled technology

      That's awesome if true. In my day it was TI-83s. I think it's fascinating how the platforms change in each generation, but the kids--and their (our) desire to hack--does not.

  8. Just proxy it out at the router. by pecosdave · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There's no reason they can't block everything from the network end. Host.deny

    There's no reason to police what the students do at home either. That's just big brother and between the parents and students.

    --
    The preceding post was not a Slashvertisement.
    1. Re:Just proxy it out at the router. by pittaxx · · Score: 1

      But how the teachers will check their facebook and complain on twitter then?

    2. Re:Just proxy it out at the router. by tantrum · · Score: 1

      vpn to your home network would solve that

    3. Re:Just proxy it out at the router. by TWiTfan · · Score: 1

      No doubt part of the deal to get parents to accept them was that they would also be locked down at home. Of course, parents could just lock down their network at home too, but how many of them are going to get off their asses and do that when they can just bitch at the school to do the parenting for them instead?

      --
      The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
    4. Re:Just proxy it out at the router. by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      Block vpn at proxy level.

      Open only certain ports, that what students really need, like port 80 for www. They may even consider a whitelist of sites students can visit from the school network.

    5. Re:Just proxy it out at the router. by Ioldanach · · Score: 1

      Block vpn at proxy level.

      Open only certain ports, that what students really need, like port 80 for www. They may even consider a whitelist of sites students can visit from the school network.

      You can proxy over standard https port 443, so blocking proxying is mostly a dead end. You'd have to stick with the whitelist.

    6. Re:Just proxy it out at the router. by Ioldanach · · Score: 1

      No doubt part of the deal to get parents to accept them was that they would also be locked down at home. Of course, parents could just lock down their network at home too, but how many of them are going to get off their asses and do that when they can just bitch at the school to do the parenting for them instead?

      What if the parents didn't agree to the deal? What if parents thought that the school's predetermined whitelist was too much? Or too little? Maybe the parents were parenting, and decided that their kids should have more rights than the school would like them to have.

    7. Re:Just proxy it out at the router. by pecosdave · · Score: 1

      You mean just like this?

      --
      The preceding post was not a Slashvertisement.
    8. Re:Just proxy it out at the router. by michelcolman · · Score: 1

      And then the little girls would get thrown in jail for it.

    9. Re:Just proxy it out at the router. by Bacon+Bits · · Score: 2

      I work at a school district that has deployed iPads. This is exactly what we do. We use the same filter to filter content in computer labs, and to prevent staff members from accessing pornography. Can they get past it? I'm sure they probably can, but students caught doing so violate the acceptable use policy and their AD account is locked out for the duration of the loss of privilege. School administrators can enable and disable student access right from an internal website.

      Before we deploy the iPads, we also make the students return a form signed by the parents that has some pretty specific usage restrictions. It's made clear that students violating the acceptable use policy forfeit access to the device entirely. Failure to turn in the device is treated just like failure to return a book: you get a fine and grades are withheld until the fine is paid or device returned.

      --
      The road to tyranny has always been paved with claims of necessity.
    10. Re:Just proxy it out at the router. by mlts · · Score: 1

      More advanced firewalls can detect unknown data streams on a SSL port that are going to a server outside, cork the data, and send an alert upstream to whomever is monitoring stuff.

      BlueCoat makes a killing off of stuff like this.

    11. Re:Just proxy it out at the router. by sjames · · Score: 1

      Many homes already have a PC in the kid's room. They must have some idea what to do or aren't concerned.

      Those who don't probably also don't have WiFi.

    12. Re:Just proxy it out at the router. by dcollins · · Score: 1

      Administrators would be in charge of that, not teachers. The two are generally in opposition in any school system. For example, a big splashy technology buy generally helps some administrators' careers but not the teachers' (and is therefore pushed by the former and opposed by the latter).

      --
      We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
    13. Re:Just proxy it out at the router. by omnichad · · Score: 1

      The Internet is too big for a whitelist. Not even being able to teach kids how to Google?

    14. Re:Just proxy it out at the router. by BetaDays · · Score: 1

      Schools have been known to do exactly that. Turn on the camera and mic and take pictures of the kids who use them.

      http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Parenting/pennsylvania-school-fbi-probe-webcam-students-spying/story?id=9905488

      --
      Paul: Father... father, the sleeper has awakened! - Dune
    15. Re:Just proxy it out at the router. by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Those who don't probably also don't have WiFi.

      Many if not most ISP-provided home router/modems now include WiFi, and it is turned on by default.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    16. Re:Just proxy it out at the router. by gregmac · · Score: 1

      On this note.. I'd like to thank the administrators from from I was in high school for going through this. Their (ultimately unsuccessful) attempts at blocking everything gave me one heck of an awesome crash course in TCP/IP, DNS, firewalls, VPNs, and reverse proxies, etc .. knowledge which I've used to some extent at every job I've had for the past 15 years.

      --
      Speak before you think
    17. Re:Just proxy it out at the router. by pecosdave · · Score: 1

      Considering they're using iProducts instead of something better and more affordable you have a point.

      --
      The preceding post was not a Slashvertisement.
    18. Re:Just proxy it out at the router. by pecosdave · · Score: 1

      Wow, a school with a billion outbound routers. What a school!

      Are you a moron full time?

      --
      The preceding post was not a Slashvertisement.
    19. Re:Just proxy it out at the router. by Atryn · · Score: 1

      The issue was more what the kids were able to access off-campus, not on the school network. LAUSD sent the iPads home. Per LAUSD Law's interpretation of CIPA compliance requirements, they are required to filter internet access to a school-owned device even when off campus. So they have to provide adequate filtering of the connection on the student's home network as well as Starbucks, McDonald's, etc. The iPad offers very very weak protection and every MDM provider out there knows that it is easily circumvented.

      --
      Come play Moral Decay!
  9. I'm a tech coordinator for an Ohio district by CreepingDeath · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Basically I could have told them this was going to happen because of how iOS is designed. We have about 200 and they don't leave our buildings (most of them are in classroom sets/charging carts) and I'd say at least 5-10 a week have to be factory reset because the kids remove the profile and lock the devices.

    How is it this easy? Well since iOS (Android has this same issue and more, sadly), unlike say, ChromeOS, isn't designed to be managed from an enterprise level. So everything we do with policies can simply be removed by the user. No password required.

    We tried the carrot and stick approach, the main profile contains the WiFi password, which they don't know, so when they remove it the devices drop off the network and are basically useless. This probably stops most of the folks from messing with them too much but we still have a few that just want to watch the world burn.

    However if you GIVE them to the kids, and let them take em home where they can use their own personal WiFi (even worse if they know the password for the school owned wifi) then the carrot is gone. There is little-no incentive for them to leave the iPad's locked down.

    This is why we've stopped buying iPads and started buying ChromeBooks. I hope Apple (and Google's Android group, too) takes note, were far from the only district going this direction.

    1. Re:I'm a tech coordinator for an Ohio district by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Go into the configuration utility go to "Configuration Profiles" -> General -> Security and set it to "Never." After that the only way to remove the profile is to do a factory reset. (Alternatively you could set it to "With Authorization" and set a profile removal password.)

    2. Re:I'm a tech coordinator for an Ohio district by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      So everything we do with policies can simply be removed by the user. No password required.

      I hate to break this to you, but you're a shitty 'tech coordinator.'

      You can lock down the profiles so they can't be removed by anything short of total reset of the iPad, and yes that means that you can't even use an admin password to remove or modify it. You can also configure them to use an http proxy for all internet traffic, again not changeable by the user of the device even with an admin password with reseting the device to factory default.

    3. Re:I'm a tech coordinator for an Ohio district by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 2

      There's no detail in the linked story, but I suspect the "hack" is they're just restoring the iPad in iTunes. The kids probably couldn't care less about the school's wifi network. And if they have a smartphone (which many of them do - the girl in the story owns an iPhone), they could even tether the iPad to it while they're in the school building.

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    4. Re:I'm a tech coordinator for an Ohio district by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      While this is the case with non-MDM configuration profiles, you cannot lock a MDM enrollment profile with a password to prevent its removal. This is the way iOS is designed to work with MDM. I hear a lot of this from folks who are not familiar with MDM specific profiles: "just password protect it gosh!". Its not the way it works guys, sorry. Even if you could password protect the MDM profile, a student could still put the device in recovery mode and wipe it clean in iTunes.

    5. Re:I'm a tech coordinator for an Ohio district by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      There's details in the linked story in the linked story. The students had a specific profile setup for them individually which they just erased because they had full rights to do so. This is a non-story unless you want to talk about incompetent IT.

    6. Re:I'm a tech coordinator for an Ohio district by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Mod parent up. The fact that this school district does not know how to properly set the security on their profiles does not mean that this is "inevitable" as the story says. Sure, it probably is inevitable that given enough installations, somebody will screw things up, but ...

      Also, the new iOS 7 deployment functionality is even more capable in this area. IIRC, if you're a bulk purchaser, once the MDM vendors and Apple get in sync with all the needed server-side changes, you'll be able to ensure that the device can't be activated without enrolling with the MDM server, effectively making profiles permanent on the device until the district disowns them.

    7. Re:I'm a tech coordinator for an Ohio district by guruevi · · Score: 1

      iOS is probably the only device that is manageable on an enterprise level. You can password-restrict your policies you know, maybe you should educate yourself before deploying anything.

      This is the same problem as everywhere else. Inept system administrators (probably the cheapest on the bottom of the barrel) do stupid things and don't know how things work because it's not in the Start Menu in Windows or fixable by rebooting.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    8. Re:I'm a tech coordinator for an Ohio district by guruevi · · Score: 1

      Both of those scenarios can be blocked with an MDM profile. Talk to your Apple rep. Also, stop spending money on MDM's that can't do what you want.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    9. Re:I'm a tech coordinator for an Ohio district by CreepingDeath · · Score: 4, Insightful

      For everyone blasting me this is part of the problem; grant money bought the iPads, no one has money for a MDM.

      Therefore we push profiles with the IOS Configurator, its the best we can mange with basically no money to support them. (though we are looking at the Meraki MDM; its free, so maybe things will improve in that regard)

      Thank your legislators for cutting our budgets to the bone.

      (also FWIW I'm the cisco / windows server / linux guy; one of my tech's does all the iOS stuff. But thanks for assuming I'm a total idiot.)

    10. Re:I'm a tech coordinator for an Ohio district by RedBear · · Score: 1

      Basically I could have told them this was going to happen because of how iOS is designed. We have about 200 and they don't leave our buildings (most of them are in classroom sets/charging carts) and I'd say at least 5-10 a week have to be factory reset because the kids remove the profile and lock the devices.

      How is it this easy? Well since iOS (Android has this same issue and more, sadly), unlike say, ChromeOS, isn't designed to be managed from an enterprise level. So everything we do with policies can simply be removed by the user. No password required.

      Even a moment of common-sense pondering tells me this is ridiculous. While iOS wasn't originally designed with any real enterprise management capability, that was half a decade and several generations of devices and iOS versions ago. Today there are many business oriented features in iOS and decent enterprise oriented mass-management tools available from both Apple and third parties, and Apple is making significant inroads into the enterprise market precisely because of this.

      I wondered what this amazing "hack" that the students had discovered actually consisted of. From the LA Times article on this:

      "Roosevelt students matter-of-factly explained their technique Tuesday outside school. The trick, they said, was to delete their personal profile information. With the profile deleted, a student was free to surf."

      What exactly would be the point of Apple even bothering to provide enterprise management tools and extensive documentation if it was all so trivially easy to erase and bypass by anyone using the devices, including schoolchildren? No enterprise would ever buy such an incompetently designed product. No, this is a failure of the typically at best semi-competent IT people running the program to understand the tool they are attempting to use. As other posters have stated quite clearly, it is absolutely possible to lock down iOS devices in such a way that none of the protections can be bypassed without a total factory reset. And with the advent of the new activation protections in iOS 7 I'm not even entirely sure the device would be usable at all after a factory reset. Maybe that just keeps iPhones from being used as phones. Anyway, were the protections bypassed by doing a factory reset? Not even close.

      You have to really be wearing some Apple-hate-colored glasses to immediately believe Apple would be that incompetent when designing and implementing a feature that is supposed to secure the device from the user. The far simpler and more likely explanation is that the school district failed to lock down the devices correctly in the first place, allowing the controls to be bypassed in a ridiculously trivial way (as quoted above). A classic ID-10-T error, that is in no way the fault of the iPad or iOS.

      Whether it's a great idea at the end of the day to use iPads to replace expensive schoolbooks that apparently cost the school districts even more than the cost of the iPads is all going to be dependent on how they use the tool. I'll leave that discussion for another day.

    11. Re:I'm a tech coordinator for an Ohio district by Bryan3000000 · · Score: 1

      It's not at all hard to make profiles 'non-removable' with Configurator. Make them 'supervised' devices and you're pretty well set. I can't recall my results exactly, but I think even DFU mode doesn't get around that, at least not most of the time. But iOS 7 is going to be a big boon to you - much easier to lock down devices, especially if you have them factory-shipped locked to MDM. iOS enterprise features up to this point have been much more tuned to make sure protected information can't get out, rather than super-solid lockdown of the device itself. That strategy makes pretty good sense though - would be a shame if admins couldn't regain control of a device they have physical access to.

    12. Re:I'm a tech coordinator for an Ohio district by oh2 · · Score: 1

      Why on earth would you lock down an iPad? We have about 100 iPads at my school (its 1-1, iPads for 10-12 and laptops/chromebooks for the older kids) and very few technical glitches. But then, ours arent locked down and are on an open wireless network. I have no problem managing the use of the iPads in my classsroom, they are used when and how I say. Sysadmins and others tend to have a very narrow focus on tech in schools, at least thats my experience. Open standards and a good infrastructure is whats needed, not lockdowns, bureacracy and management.

      The device itself is a tool, its what I as a teacher do with it that makes a difference. I teach math and science at a school near Stockholm in Sweden. All my students in math turned in their own video explaining how to separate any number into ones, tens, hundreds and so on the other week. I get the kids to think and act and I get a great overview of their math vocabulary and basic thinking. We use it to watch videos with short lessons and explanations of problems, to do homework and write on our classroom blog. We use them for documenting science projects by writing, snapping pictures and making videos, we train multiplication tables and watch clips from Youtube and sources like myself and other teachers at the school.

      The iPad is a complementary tool for my teaching. What I teach doesnt change when you add technology, but how I can teach and how the kids can learn does. Last year I had three computers and 34 kids at a different school. I still teach the same things, but I can do a lot more in the same time now.

      --

      Now the world has gone to bed, Darkness won't engulf my head, I can see by infra-red, How I hate the night.

    13. Re:I'm a tech coordinator for an Ohio district by Minwee · · Score: 1

      (Alternatively you could set it to "With Authorization" and set a profile removal password.)

      Just don't make it "Password" or "YourSchoolNameHerePass".

    14. Re:I'm a tech coordinator for an Ohio district by guruevi · · Score: 1

      You can do what you want with iOS Configurator but deploying 15k of any type of device without an MDM is going to be insane. I work in EDU as well, Apple has FREE engineers and tech support for you if you didn't know, they can help you with it. There is also an MDM built-in into Apple Mac OS X Server, it only costs ~$29.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    15. Re:I'm a tech coordinator for an Ohio district by Atryn · · Score: 1

      Your response is incredibly naive...

      LAUSD is taking on one of the largest deployments of iPads ever. They are working directly with Apple and Airwatch (after a competitive MDM process). The fact is, iOS has a lot of flaws and MDM on iOS sucks because Apple is unwilling to fix it.

      --
      Come play Moral Decay!
  10. Hack-a-rooney by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    Mikael Blomkbist: Here's your new school iPad, Lisbeth. It has blocks so you can't get to facebook and stuff.

    Lisbeth Salander: (Looks at him with disgust) Please.

    --
    (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  11. Why iPads in the first place? by Karlt1 · · Score: 1

    I actually like my iDevices and I don't believe that I'm saying this. But why iPads? They are limited use devices and once you add a keyboard you might as well provide them laptops. But even that is pushing it. Get them a bunch of cheap Kindles and provide better computer labs at schools and libraries with extended hours.

    1. Re:Why iPads in the first place? by TWiTfan · · Score: 2

      Because when something is paid for with grant money, no one gives a shit what it costs. And "iPad" is a lot easier to understand on a grant application than "Obscure tablet that the grant evaluators have probably never heard of."

      --
      The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
    2. Re:Why iPads in the first place? by guytoronto · · Score: 1

      Why iPads? Because of educational software. It's not about the hardware, it's about the software.

    3. Re: Why iPads in the first place? by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      Computer labs are to teach children to use a computer. That includes learning to type, and maybe basics of word processing, spread sheets, etc. For those that like it, maybe some advanced classes that do programming and databases and so.

      Tablets are book-replacements/enhancements. Devices that provide information to the children to learn from.

  12. Re:It took the kids THAT long? by ClassicASP · · Score: 2

    Should have happened within the first 30 minutes after the first iPad was issued out to the first student.

  13. Definitive Dilbert on the issue by gnalre · · Score: 2
    --
    Choose your allies carefully, it is highly unlikely you will be held accountable for the actions of your enemies
  14. thats nothing by nimbius · · Score: 4, Funny

    the analog version of the chemistry E-Book has also been hacked. an enormous toothbrush mustache has been rendered in analog on Marie Curie making her look exactly like hitler...a clear violation of our zero tolerance policy.

    --
    Good people go to bed earlier.
  15. Meaningless by TRRosen · · Score: 1

    Any device can be reset to defaults that's not much of a hack and if the kids do it, the school will know the second it hits the school network. (If their IT people have any skills at all) Bypassing the lockdown on a device is only an issue if you can do it without being detected.

  16. Teaching by MrKaos · · Score: 1

    A new generation of script kiddies.

    --
    My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    1. Re:Teaching by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      A new generation of script kiddies.

      Some years ago on a flight to (or was it from?) Vegas I was unfortunate enough to be seated next to a 13 year old girl who explained to me how the tool she used to get free internet access via AOL worked.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:Teaching by MrKaos · · Score: 1

      A new generation of script kiddies.

      Some years ago on a flight to (or was it from?) Vegas I was unfortunate enough to be seated next to a 13 year old girl who explained to me how the tool she used to get free internet access via AOL worked.

      Just how much detail did she provide?

      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    3. Re:Teaching by MrKaos · · Score: 1

      Some years ago on a flight to (or was it from?) Vegas I was unfortunate enough to be seated next to a 13 year old girl who explained to me how the tool she used to get free internet access via AOL worked.

      Just how much detail did she provide?

      Enough to where I just wanted her to shut the hell up, though I'm not rude enough to say so to a little girl. Eventually I managed to get my mp3 player into action by a long drawn-out process of fiddling with it meaningfully.

      I know the feeling, unfortunately.

      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
  17. On the upside... by Dyolf+Knip · · Score: 1

    At least now the school knows not to include camera-enabled surveillance software on the phones.

    --
    Dyolf Knip
    1. Re:On the upside... by Dyolf+Knip · · Score: 1

      On the pads, not phones. Too damned early on a Monday.

      --
      Dyolf Knip
    2. Re:On the upside... by intermodal · · Score: 1

      A small bit of masking tape takes care of the video end. As far as the audio, well, that gets trickier, as you never really know what those menus are doing.

      --
      In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
  18. Should have got with Surface by Amtrak · · Score: 1

    Seriously, though while I hate the idea of Windows RT and it's locked boot loader and inability to run unsigned code it seems like this is the perfect use case for such a computer.

    1. Re:Should have got with Surface by omnichad · · Score: 1

      Nobody else is buying them. Why should they?

    2. Re:Should have got with Surface by cusco · · Score: 1

      This is a really big difference between Microsoft and Apple; Microsoft has been creating enterprise operating systems and the software to manage them for over a decade and a half, while Apple has concentrated on the unmanaged consumer market. They've slapped some band-aides on their software and declared it to be enterprise-ready.

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
  19. Re:It took the kids THAT long? by TWiTfan · · Score: 2

    It probably was hacked within 30 minutes by the more clever students. It just took it a little longer to get around to everyone else.

    --
    The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
  20. I like it. by Delusion_ · · Score: 1

    It's an important civics lesson about the futility of censorship in an open society, and a technology exercise to boot! In a world where tools and processes to root just about every iOS and Android device out there exists, I'm not sure how they ever would have imagined device-level censorship would have worked; router-level censorship is a difficult enough challenge. Did they imagine that that wouldn't be good enough once the childrens got out of school and connected to non-school WiFi hotspots? That's cute.

    1. Re:I like it. by Delusion_ · · Score: 1

      Oh, yeah, I understood that, but even if deleting a profile wasn't an option, the nuclear option of rooting is always available. One thing that made me chuckle is the claim in the title of the article. I suspect it didn't take one week, merely that it took one week for most students to know about it. I suspect the first success was on day one.

    2. Re:I like it. by SplatMan_DK · · Score: 1

      They didn't even need to root the device. They just deleted the restricted profile. iOS (and Android) are plain wrong for these sort of roll outs. They should have been looking at Chromebooks instead.

      Not really. The admins were just idiots who didn't RTFMA.

      It is perfectly possible in iOS to enforce policies which are tied to a non-deletable user profile. Most settings (and a lot of hidden ones) in the network configuration can be set and locked as well - for example by configuring the OS to remove the control-panel options in question. Configuring these iPads to adhere to certain policies and restrict their HTTP access to a proxy owned by the school should be no problem at all. The device would need to be completely factory-reset in order to get rid of that configuration; and the network admins would know if that happened.

      I suspect the same is true for Android. Carriers have demanded such functionality for decades - for example to permanently disable tethering for certain devices or subscription plans.

      Seriously. These admin failed. The tech to do it properly is already here.

      - Jesper

      --
      My security clearance is so high I have to kill myself if I remember I have it...
    3. Re:I like it. by firex726 · · Score: 1

      How can you call it censorship?

      It's a device bought by the school for the purposes of school work. Just like how your work computer is meant to be used for work.

      Students found a way to break the restrictions and got them taken away; this is not a case of the school trying to keep some useful or vital information from students, it's them expecting students to adhere to their agreement and the purpose of the devices.

      The devices were in part to help the students, and probably to make it so they would not have to carry several large and heavy textbooks, and instead one iPad for all their assignments.

    4. Re:I like it. by Delusion_ · · Score: 1

      It's only censorship if the government is involved. Oh wait, schools are government entities. Restricting information access is censorship, even when it's justified censorship, such as blocking out hardcore pornography.

  21. How is this a problem? by wisnoskij · · Score: 2

    OK, so now the Ipads are more useful, now with FB the kids can better collaborate with their classmates.
    the whole idea of Ipads or any type of tablet was stupid and counter productive to begin with, but the ability to "hack them" does not change that.

    --
    Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
  22. Re:It took the kids THAT long? by SJHillman · · Score: 2

    That's how it was with the TI-83's the school distributed to us... a handful of us figured out how to make them do more than just classwork within a few days at most, but it didn't get to the rest of the kids or teachers until near the end of the school year.

    Same shit, different generation.

  23. Same problem, new toy by barlevg · · Score: 1

    Giving a kid a powerful toy and then telling them not to play with it is the height of absurdity.

    This reminds me of TI-83s in middle/high school. You weren't supposed to install games onto them, and teachers would often threaten to wipe them if they found stuff installed (tbf, the concern was probably mainly cheating tools), but everyone had Tetris and Galaxian and Dying Eyes and Hegemony.

  24. And??? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Hacking the iPad is not an issue. The real issue is that an iPad is a very poor instrument for teaching. It's a consumption tool (like a glorified TV). The idiots that approved this were short sighted.
    As others have said. A PC is cheaper and far more powerful, particularly for content creation - where the grey matter is actually stretched.

  25. Giving out iPads is silly by dkleinsc · · Score: 2

    The problems in education in the US are not about the supplies the kids have, and the iPads, while great for publicity, won't have much effect on student achievement.

    The big problems have a lot more to do with:
    - A lack of pre-K education for a lot of kids means that many start about 2-3 years behind. For example, I was one of two students who walked into first grade able to read at all, count, and add. Head Start and similar programs could help with that, but they've never come close to having the funding they'd really need to solve that problem, and parents are often completely unaware that that sort of thing even exists.

    - Teachers are poorly paid compared to other professions requiring similar levels of education, so we don't have our smartest people opting to become teachers. For example, someone who's good at math or science, and good at explaining it to other people, could choose to get an engineering degree and make about $85K a year, or go into teaching and make about $50K a year. Which would you expect them to choose?

    - The school districts that desperately need the best teachers are not the same districts as can afford the best teachers. Teachers, like most people, opt to work for places that pay them well if possible, and that means wealthy suburban districts can get better staff than poor urban or rural districts. But generally speaking, the poor kids are the ones who could most use a really good teacher to give them a chance to not be poor.

    - For students in minority cultures, education is not always seen as a path to financial success, because (certainly historically, and seems to be still at least partially true) educated people in that minority do not necessarily get the jobs they are qualified for. If education isn't a path to success, then many students will be motivated to just muddle through until either they graduate or drop out, because either way they're going to be flipping burgers for a living if they are lucky enough to get a job.

    None of that will be solved with iPads, just like none of that was solved by Apple giving out Apple II's to a lot of schools back in the 1980's.

    --
    I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    1. Re:Giving out iPads is silly by MaWeiTao · · Score: 2

      You make good points, but you're missing the fundamental problem with education in America: the parents. That's the biggest problem I've seen, by far. There are countless early learning programs for the poor, at least in my area and the more widespread problem they face is that they're under utilized. Because few people care enough to sign up for them. No amount of salary increases is going to help teachers if their students don't care to learn, or if they're wasting much of the school day just trying to maintain some semblance of discipline.

      Compounding the problem is the fact that parents who do care get fed up and move out. Or, if they can't manage that they get their kids in private or advanced learning schools. There are some serious cultural problems that need to be addressed, particularly in the inner city, before we can start talking about improving education.

    2. Re:Giving out iPads is silly by omnichad · · Score: 1

      - A lack of pre-K education for a lot of kids means that many start about 2-3 years behind. For example, I was one of two students who walked into first grade able to read at all, count, and add. Head Start and similar programs could help with that, but they've never come close to having the funding they'd really need to solve that problem, and parents are often completely unaware that that sort of thing even exists.

      I learned all of that in Kindergarten. Did you skip that, too?

    3. Re:Giving out iPads is silly by dkleinsc · · Score: 1

      If you didn't notice, my last point was a big part of explaining the parent problem: If your educational attainment makes no difference in your financial success, than not spending valuable time or money on education is a rational decision. The parent's message to their kids becomes not "work hard, stay in school, study carefully" but "don't get your hopes up". And after somewhere around 75 years of that, it would be hardly surprising that this idea was embedded in the culture.

      So yes, it needs to be solved, but the solution is to make it worth people's while to do well in school.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    4. Re:Giving out iPads is silly by dkleinsc · · Score: 1

      I learned reading, counting, and addition before kindergarten, but my folks also put me in a top-notch kindergarten program, so by first grade I was comfortable with multi-digit addition and some subtraction as well. The point of that is just that I was years ahead of my classmates before I really could make any decisions for myself, and it wasn't because I was some kind of genius.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
  26. This is Apple's iPad policy in motion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I work for a school where we rolled out iPads on a limited level and wanted to prevent the scenario where they were given away to someone else. We also wanted to deploy software to these iPads so there was some functionality. This is what we found:

    -There's always the functionality to wipe an iPad from the user end. When we asked Apple about this, they said that the concept behind the iPad was that control of the iPad was always meant to be in the user's hand. You can not disable the ability to wipe an iPad.
    -We looked into MDM providers to be able to track where an iPad is (iCloud can also do this, but the user can just log the iCloud user out). However, we found MDMs are installed by profile and you can not make an MDM profile mandatory (meaning that anyone using the iPad can just remove the profile and MDM easily).
    -We looked into installing applications without tying it back to an Apple ID. We were told that this is impossible without Apple Configurator (Configurator ties the app back to a workstation). However, to do this, the machines need to be kept in supervised mode, which prevents users from connecting the iPad to iTunes on any other devices but the main backoffice machine. So users need to go through some other method (Dropbox, Google Drive, etc) to offload their pictures/movies/etc (this has changed in iOS so that now iPads supervised with the most recent version of Configurator can synch with MacOS machines)

    Apple doesn't really seem to want their devices to be owned by anyone but the user and they're specifically enterprise unfriendly. Deploying iPads to a school is an uphill battle and it doesn't sound like these machines were "hacked" but rather students went outside of the lines that the school intended.

    1. Re:This is Apple's iPad policy in motion by Atryn · · Score: 1

      +1 to parent.

      This is true. The only plus here was that you do know exactly which users did it. LAUSD stated that in the article too. They know exactly which devices had their MDM profiles deleted. The user is in control, but the MDM can notify what the user did.

      At that point, it should be a disciplinary issue. Unfortunately, in this country, it becomes a legal/lawsuit/CIPA issue.

      --
      Come play Moral Decay!
  27. burying the lead by slashmydots · · Score: 1

    They're burying the lead so deep, I don't know if they'll ever find it. Yes, security is a joke on them but that's not the story. Apple products are overpriced pretend luxury items that have no place in business or school. There are superior products that cost half the money and acceptable products that cost 1/6th the money. If I lived in the area getting taxed for this project, I'd be outside the school with a pitchfork and torch.

  28. Re:Tablets by SplatMan_DK · · Score: 1

    Apple could capitalize on this by making a very stripped down E-iPad for educational use that neither includes WiFi nor cellular data. Apple could create a special education store like E-iTunes and have the tablet interface with that.

    Yes, and this ePad with no network connectivity connects to the E-iTunes store with pixie magic?

    The Kindle e-Book reader does exactly this.

    While you may argue that it has "WiFi" or "cellular data" that is clearly not what the poster meant. The context is "usable WiFi or cellular data with access to any content and/or application". Arguing that this is "technically" still WiFi changes nothing.

    - Jesper

    --
    My security clearance is so high I have to kill myself if I remember I have it...
  29. Honest Questions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What exactly do the students(what age/grade?) do with these devices(iPads/Chrome Books)?
    How does the device improve/aid learning over more traditional teaching tools(I presume books vs. ereaders)?
    How much more does the technology program cost than the previous traditional methods?

    I'm presently watching my "child" attending university. I am noticing a significant, near massive, loss in learning productivity due to online books, multiple guess homework assignments, and tests. There are at least six different sites for the various functions that all look and behave differently, all have a significant fee attached and all provide little to no value over a book and a test paper. While I am seeing a serious decline in their learning, I am seeing a massive increase in expenditure to access their book online, to gain access to homework assignments, to gain access to the testing site, to have and use a "clicker" in order to "participate" in class(required for grade) by responding in a massive online multiple guess(MOMG) fashion to the prof's questions.and more. Yet, despite the obvious decline in learning, the kids(not just mine) think "it's great because I can do my homework on my phone!" (and fail).

    All the while, the state university system is announcing the eminent implementation of all online degrees. They see it as a major source of revenue and a means of significantly increasing their enrollments without increasing facilities cost. "It's going to be so totally awesome for learning and for the kids". BULLCRAP!

  30. Re:Tablets by firex726 · · Score: 1

    Sounds like a a lot of work for something that only a few school districts have adopted; add to that they would be competing against the other tablets and eReaders which can already be managed from an Enterprise level. The way iOS is designed just makes it impractical to manage in an enterprise environment.

  31. ^This by globaljustin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Technology in the classroom...all of it...it's just **tools to teach**

    Anyone who things technology can reduce staff budget or allow larger class sizes is smoking crack.

    A professionally trained, well-paid *human* teacher is absolutely the only thing that educates a child.

    Everything else is just a tool.

    --
    Thank you Dave Raggett
    1. Re:^This by NatasRevol · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Only?

      No.

      Lots of people learn in different ways. Especially if that professionally trained teacher is still a bad teacher.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    2. Re:^This by LordLimecat · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Bad teachers are no justification for iPads. Either way, dont expect me to pay for your child to get tools that are not proven to do anything but entertain and have been around for all of 5 years.

      You cant even draw the parallel to the advent of computers: that was a whole new field. Noone in their right mind would claim that the future of technology looks like "iPads".

    3. Re:^This by leereyno · · Score: 4, Interesting

      A professionally trained, well-paid human teacher eh?

      If this is true, then how come our schools are so awful?

      We the people have been throwing more and more money at schoolteachers, and requiring ever-increasing levels of training and education to maintain their license to teach, yet the educational achievments of our students have been flatlined for 40 years, and have even fallen dramatically in some districts.

      Meanwhile home schooled children, taught by parents with no formal training as teachers, outperform government-schooled students so often that the high achieving home schooler has become a cultural meme, if not a cliche.

      Charter schools have also been able to deliver superior results at lower cost.

      No, I don't think we need professionally trained well paid teachers. What we need are voucher programs, more home schooling, teachers and schools that have to compete, the utter end to tenure of any kind, and pay/bonuses based on classroom performance instead of seniority. Opening up the teaching profession to anyone with a bachelor's degree and a demonstrated knowledge of a subject (english, math, science) would be even better. There is no evidence that having a master's degree in early childhood education helps someone teach 3rd graders how to multiply. Let those who want to teach and who are good at it take the field, and get rid of parasitic space takers for whom a teaching job is a state-paid sinecure.

      Most of all, outlaw public sector unions so that groups like the NEA aren't able to block real education reform.

      --
      Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
    4. Re:^This by NatasRevol · · Score: 2

      Noone in their right mind would claim that the future of technology looks like "iPads".

      Except for all the technology companies.

      And Star Trek.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    5. Re:^This by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You're leaving out a particular demographic in all of your scenarios here. The children of parents who don't care or who are terrible parents.

      Teachers are expected to make the same progress with both of the following students:

      Student A: A middle class kid with parents who will kick his butt if he doesn't do well in school.
      Student B: A poor kid who lives with his crack addicted aunt and doesn't know if he'll eat tonight.

      Do you think the aunt of student B will homeschool? Do you think the aunt of student B would even bother to sign the kid up for the charter lottery? Do you think student B could perform well on a standardized test, without having eaten the day prior and wondering where tonight's meal will come from?

      The education system as a whole is not failing. That's fear mongering BS. It's ammo for politicians to use to get everyone riled up. They shift the blame from income inequality and home issues, to "bad teachers" and evil teacher's associations. I don't doubt there are bad teachers. I don't doubt that there are lazy teachers. I just don't think there as many as the politicians would have you believe. Even as such, if these students had a decent home life, a single bad teacher isn't going to affect them greatly.

      Spending on education has risen dramatically over the past couple decades. But so has what we're asking and requiring local education agencies to do. Data collections, state testing, transportation, lunch, transportation, special education, translation services, school improvement... it all adds up and stuff is constantly added with no additional funding.

      Should we strive to provide the same education and hope for the same results from both student A and student B? Yes. Can we realistically expect all the student Bs to perform at the same level as all the student As? No. Student B needs community support in order to be successful. The issue, at its core, is socioeconomic.

    6. Re:^This by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Technology in the classroom...all of it...it's just **tools to teach**

      Oddly, writing is a technology, and paper is a technology, you put them together and you can convey knowledge. But if you put computers together with writing then you can convey knowledge much more cheaply, because one computer can present an entire library.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    7. Re:^This by ranton · · Score: 2

      A professionally trained, well-paid *human* teacher is absolutely the only thing that educates a child.

      HAHAHA. That joke made my morning.

      While I'm not saying teachers are unimportant, but are you actually saying that children are unable to learn without supervision? I remember writing my own computer games half a decade before my first programming class in college. And I am pretty sure no one taught me math from the fourth grade (when my parents started buying me textbooks) until sophomore year in college. Our teaching colleges are so poor that I couldn't even ask questions to enhance my independent learning because even recently graduated high school math teachers rarely know calculus (and I'm talking basic stuff, I wasn't a genius or anything).

      I did learn a great deal from teachers in other subjects, such as rhetoric, but they were the exception to the rule.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    8. Re:^This by fightinfilipino · · Score: 2

      A professionally trained, well-paid human teacher eh?

      If this is true, then how come our schools are so awful?

      We the people have been throwing more and more money at schoolteachers, and requiring ever-increasing levels of training and education to maintain their license to teach, yet the educational achievments of our students have been flatlined for 40 years, and have even fallen dramatically in some districts.

      this is a MYTH.

      this is nothing but a red herring argument foisted by fiscal conservatives to continue to destroy the public school system and to concentrate resources in elite public schools. for a nation whose economic engine relies on advanced knowledge and high literacy, we should be treasuring our teachers. teaching should be one of the highest-paid professions, and people should be beating down the doors to try to become a teacher.

      instead, people have bought the line that teachers are "overpaid" and don't bother to realize that teachers earn incredibly low salaries for the education and professional level of their work. that is insane.

      at the very least, please stop repeating the blatant lie that teachers are overpaid. there could be nothing farther from the truth.

    9. Re:^This by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      We the people have been throwing more and more money at schoolteachers,

      No, we haven't. Teachers have been the last people to get the money. We're throwing money at administrators and crap like iPads for all. Free lunches and breakfasts. Class sizes go up. Where are those teachers we're throwing money at? Right -- not hired because an administrator makes a bundle more and someone has to supervise all the teachers.

      This article is a perfect example of how the teachers get shafted. It's an article about administrators squandering money by giving free toys to kids, and still the teachers get blamed.

      'They were bound to fail,' says Renee Hobbs, who's been a skeptic of the iPad program from the start. 'There is a huge history in American education of being attracted to the new, shiny, hugely promising bauble and then watching the idea fizzle because teachers weren't properly trained to use it and it just ended up in the closet.'

      No, honey, this isn't a case where the teachers weren't trained. This failure is purely the fault of ignorant administrators who decided that the latest bauble and $1 billion wasted on them would solve the problem.

      What we need are voucher programs, more home schooling, teachers and schools that have to compete,

      I happen to agree with that, but not because I think teachers are paid too much. I agree because it eviscerates a lot of administration. Those home and charter schools perform not because you're saving money on teachers, it's for two reasons. Fewer (or no) administrators putting ridiculous demands on the teachers that are there, and/or parents being intimately involved in their child's education. Children learn better when they see that learning is in important part of their parent's lives. Can't get much more important than Mom or Dad sitting with Junior every day doing the teaching.

      and pay/bonuses based on classroom performance instead of seniority.

      Absolutely not. The only result of this will be to teach to the tests and not teach to educate. It's already been tried. It's happening here in Oregon. Schools get ranked by class performance. Guess what topics get stressed? The ones that answer questions on the tests. Real world relevance? Well, I guess the standardized tests are "real world".

      Opening up the teaching profession to anyone with a bachelor's degree and a demonstrated knowledge of a subject (english, math, science) would be even better.

      You must be joking. You want better teachers and you'd make the qualifications wide open? You'd want people with just a bachelor's degree in English teaching high school students? That's a sure fire way to dumb down the classroom, which would, I guess, even out the results. You wouldn't be motivating the underachievers to perform better, you'd stifle the gifted, and that would achieve equality of results.

      Let those who want to teach and who are good at it take the field,

      And you'd know how good the entry level applicant is exactly how? "They call me Doctor Science because I have a bachelor's degree ... in Science!"

      and get rid of parasitic space takers for whom a teaching job is a state-paid sinecure.

      Absolutely. But dropping the standards for teachers won't make them better, it will simply open the door to more people who don't know what they are doing.

    10. Re:^This by johnwallace123 · · Score: 1

      If this is true, then how come our schools are so awful?

      We the people have been throwing more and more money at schoolteachers, and requiring ever-increasing levels of training and education to maintain their license to teach, yet the educational achievments of our students have been flatlined for 40 years, and have even fallen dramatically in some districts.

      Have we really been throwing money at teachers? Teacher salaries have remained fairly constant in inflation-adjusted terms over the past few decades. W have definitely been throwing money at schools. With NCLB testing and gee-whiz-bang "let's give everyone a tablet" initiatives, and insanely overpaid administrators, we're spending way more, but we aren't seeing any results... hm...

      Meanwhile home schooled children, taught by parents with no formal training as teachers, outperform government-schooled students so often that the high achieving home schooler has become a cultural meme, if not a cliche.

      Charter schools have also been able to deliver superior results at lower cost.

      Um, citation needed? Yes, some charter schools are great, but even more are worse.

      No, I don't think we need professionally trained well paid teachers. What we need are voucher programs, more home schooling, teachers and schools that have to compete, the utter end to tenure of any kind, and pay/bonuses based on classroom performance instead of seniority.

      Because tying pay raises to test performance doesn't give anyone an incentive to cheat. It would never happen.

      Opening up the teaching profession to anyone with a bachelor's degree and a demonstrated knowledge of a subject (english, math, science) would be even better. There is no evidence that having a master's degree in early childhood education helps someone teach 3rd graders how to multiply. Let those who want to teach and who are good at it take the field, and get rid of parasitic space takers for whom a teaching job is a state-paid sinecure.

      Most of all, outlaw public sector unions so that groups like the NEA aren't able to block real education reform.

      I'm all for at-will employment, but let's be honest, if school systems could get away with paying teachers minimum wage, they would. After all, if all you need is demonstrated knowledge of a subject, why don't the 1st graders teach kindergarten? Too far? OK, well, certainly a high school dropout should be OK. After all, they know their colors and how to read "See Spot Run." I'm sure you wouldn't mind handing over your kids to a burnout stoner, right?

    11. Re:^This by Pumpkin+Tuna · · Score: 1

      Did you write that in your flying car?

    12. Re:^This by Pumpkin+Tuna · · Score: 1

      And that's what worries me about this project. They are handing out complicated tools and not showing the teachers how the tool is best used. That could be ..... bad.

    13. Re:^This by Pumpkin+Tuna · · Score: 1

      A professionally trained, well-paid human teacher eh?

      If this is true, then how come our schools are so awful?

      For the most part, they aren't awful. Where they are, it just so happens that everybody who lives there is super poor. Coincidence?

      We the people have been throwing more and more money at schoolteachers, and requiring ever-increasing levels of training and education to maintain their license to teach, yet the educational achievments of our students have been flatlined for 40 years, and have even fallen dramatically in some districts.

      Again, income inequality has been increasing too. And those are the kids doing worse.

      Meanwhile home schooled children, taught by parents with no formal training as teachers, outperform government-schooled students so often that the high achieving home schooler has become a cultural meme, if not a cliche.

      Hmm. Would student:teacher ratio have anything to do with that?

      Charter schools have also been able to deliver superior results at lower cost.

      Um, no, not really. Some do well, some do poorly or the same. And again, these schools are able to skirt rules and dodge students with parents who don't care.

      No, I don't think we need professionally trained well paid teachers. What we need are voucher programs, more home schooling, teachers and schools that have to compete, the utter end to tenure of any kind, and pay/bonuses based on classroom performance instead of seniority.

      In many states, "tenure" simply means you have to have a reason to fire someone and a process to follow. Unsurprisingly, states with weak tenure like this often have the worst-rated education systems.

      Opening up the teaching profession to anyone with a bachelor's degree and a demonstrated knowledge of a subject (english, math, science) would be even better. There is no evidence that having a master's degree in early childhood education helps someone teach 3rd graders how to multiply. Let those who want to teach and who are good at it take the field, and get rid of parasitic space takers for whom a teaching job is a state-paid sinecure.

      Wow. Ever worked in education? These so-called lateral entry teachers sometimes turn out to be great. Some even hang around 3-4 years before going back to their original profession where they actually get paid. Most lateral entry teachers are terrible at their jobs because they have no idea how to teach that subject that they know so well.

      Most of all, outlaw public sector unions so that groups like the NEA aren't able to block real education reform.

      That's why the Southern states with no public sector unions are doing so much better than the other . . . . oh, wait.

    14. Re:^This by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      What tech companies are using iPads for serious tech work?

      Are you extrapolating from their presence in posh coffee shops, and assuming that that somehow means theyre suitable for serious development or data manipulation?

    15. Re:^This by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      Now it's 'serious tech work'? Those goal posts shifted awful quickly.

      Lots of actual companies use them as the future. From commercial airlines to medical facilities.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    16. Re:^This by Minwee · · Score: 1

      Nice try teacher. Fact is, AI will be teaching kids in the future. They will do it better, will work 24/7, and work for free.

      And I'm sure the kids will love it.

    17. Re:^This by HiThere · · Score: 1

      The reason the schools are so awful is primarily the high student to teacher ratio. Secondarily, teachers are not allowed to discharge students for not being willing to either study, or allow the rest of the class to study. Thirdly, teachers are coerced into teaching mainly how to pass tests.

      Those three are at the top of the list. Other reasons aare less significant. The IPADs are gimmics, and don't have much use except as motivators.

      N.B.: In NO grade is a student to teacher ration of more than 15 :1 reasonable. In lower grades it shoul be lower. One can argue that in college it's reasonable to have *some* lecture classes with a large audience. Also in the Junior and Senior years of high school. But those need to be supplemented with at least an equal number of "section meetings" (for each student) where the ration should be nearer to 10 : 1. And it can be argued that the "lectures" should be available on the internet for perusal as needed, and that there should be "jump to frame" and "pause" features added to the replay.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    18. Re:^This by Somebody+Is+Using+My · · Score: 1

      Those home and charter schools perform not because you're saving money on teachers, it's for two reasons. Fewer (or no) administrators putting ridiculous demands on the teachers that are there, and/or parents being intimately involved in their child's education. Children learn better when they see that learning is in important part of their parent's lives. Can't get much more important than Mom or Dad sitting with Junior every day doing the teaching.

      Indeed. One of the most important factors in a child's education is the involvement of the parents or guardians. More so than the teachers, the curriculum or any fancy gadgets, it is the attention a parent places on the importance of education that encourages the student. This is not limited solely to Mom or Dad sitting with little Susie helping her with her fractions, but also the overall attitude that school is more than just a place to stick the kids for eight hours a day while the parents go to work.

      And sending a kid to a charter school (or partaking in home schooling) is the ultimate example of this sort of attitude. The parents are openly investing in their child's future. These are the sort of parents who are more likely to stress the importance of an education to the child. Therefore, these are the students who are more receptive to receiving an education.

      That is not to say that there are not many, many parents who place the same importance on schooling but still send their kids to a public school. But the types of parents who use schools as daycare for their kids are also not the sort who are going to bother with a charter school. Contrasting public schools to charter schools is therefore an inaccurate apple-to-orange comparison. It is -essentially - a comparison between a self-selected group of students who (thanks to parental involvement) want to do good in school versus students who may or may not care about their education. Like an early 20th century election poll that was unwittingly biased, the students sent to charter schools are a group who trend towards better schools for reasons other than the nature of the system itself. It says very little about the quality of the schools themselves. It is as likely most of those students would perform similarly in most public schools.

      And - bringing it back to topic - charter schools are not immune to the gadget frenzy of public schools either. In fact, in my (admittedly limited) experience, they are more likely to throw electronics at the problem - thanks to a higher budget - with as little provable positive result to the teaching experience itself.

    19. Re:^This by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      While I'm not saying teachers are unimportant, but are you actually saying that children are unable to learn without supervision?

      I will say that children, on average, are not able to obtain a general education without supervision.

      I remember writing my own computer games half a decade before my first programming class in college.

      Perhaps you are not average? And perhaps this is not really "learning" in a fully rounded sense?

      You learned what you were interested in. You probably didn't learn history or English or a second language. If you didn't need it right away, you probably didn't spend a lot of time learning about it. You may have watched one of the Robin Hood movies, but then never bothered to learn the basis for that character or the real events that were taking place around that time (like the Magna Carta, generally considered the beginning of the English common law system, which carried on into the US).

      I'd have to raise my hand as guilty, too. I did most of my chemistry up to college by myself. It was grad school before I realized the vast gaps in my chemistry education. Those things that just weren't interesting but were important to a real working chemist were missing. I whizzed through high school English class by writing things with the correct political view. When I got to college and needed a foreign language, I was having to learn the language AND parts of speech and cases (genetive? dative? Huh?) at the same time, which put me at a huge disadvantage.

      For the majority of students, your experience is irrelevant. Were we to base our educational system on it today, we'd have a large number of people who are unqualified to be cashiers at a burger joint, and a few who manage to take advantage of them because they know how.

    20. Re:^This by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      The airline companies are using them as glorified e-book readers, not for any data entry. Not sure about the medical facilities.

    21. Re:^This by pspahn · · Score: 1

      AI won't be teaching my children. For that matter, some lifetime NEA member won't be teaching my children either.

      If anyone is going to indoctrinate my children, it's going to be me.

      --
      Someone flopped a steamer in the gene pool.
    22. Re:^This by ranton · · Score: 1

      For the majority of students, your experience is irrelevant. Were we to base our educational system on it today, we'd have a large number of people who are unqualified to be cashiers at a burger joint, and a few who manage to take advantage of them because they know how.

      I don't see how my experience is irrelevant. I, and others I know, are examples that the kind of direct supervision that teachers provide is not necessary to learn. That doesn't mean that there is no need for institutions of education, just that teachers aren't the only source of instruction.

      If it wasn't for the people writing textbooks and computer manuals I wouldn't have learned anything on my own.
      If I didn't have people motivating me to learn (my parents in this case) I wouldn't have learned anything on my own.
      If I didn't have real-world projects to work on that required me to learn the parts of programming that I didn't like at the time (database queries for example), I wouldn't have had a very well rounded independent programming education.

      But none of these things requires teachers. A well done curriculum can handle all of it. Teachers will still be very useful in the education process, but using them as a primary form of instruction is incredibly wasteful without today's technology.

      One of the big problems is that we teach with technology today in a very similar way that we teach without technology, but just replace paper with a screen. But computers can revolutionize how education is done. Databases of hundreds of thousands of math questions can be created, and textbooks could have access to all of them. Algorithms could track which students answer which questions, and determine which assignments have the largest impact on comprehension. Truthfully the biggest improvements will be things I can't even think about until some far more knowledgeable, creative, and ambitious people come up with them.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    23. Re:^This by Solandri · · Score: 2

      instead, people have bought the line that teachers are "overpaid" and don't bother to realize that teachers earn incredibly low salaries for the education and professional level of their work. that is insane.

      You're both right. Teacher salaries are low, yet the U.S. spends more per student on education than any other country on the planet.

      People think teacher salary = education spending. It isn't. Far from it. If you look at the latest educational expenditure stats (page 8 of the state level tables), you see that our schools spend $8649 per student on salaries, wages, and benefits. If the average class size is a modest 25, that's $216,255/yr per class being paid to educators. If the average teacher salary is $50k (call it $70k with benefits), who is the rest of the money going to?.

      Obviously some of the extra is necessary (bus drivers, janitors, basic administration, etc). But from the research I've done, the bulk of the extra $145k goes to administrators. They've managed to worm their way into a position where they're in charge of how the money is allocated. If the budget is ever increased, they allocate most of it to themselves. If the budget is ever cut, they pass on the cuts to the teachers and rely on the teacher's union to stir up a firestorm about how we aren't spending enough money on education, when in fact we're spending more than any other country. Both you and OP have been suckered in by their ruse - thinking that teacher salary = education spending. When in fact teacher salary = education spending - administration overhead and other costs.

      Incidentally, I should point out that the "teachers aren't paid enough" argument runs counter to the interest of current teachers. If your reasoning is that higher salaries will attract better teachers, then the logical course of action is to fire the current teachers and hire completely different teachers at the higher salaries. Retaining the current batch of teachers and simply increasing their salary won't change anything (other than improving the teachers' standard of living).

    24. Re:^This by InfiniteLoopCounter · · Score: 1

      Technology in the classroom...all of it...it's just **tools to teach**

      Anyone who things technology can reduce staff budget or allow larger class sizes is smoking crack.

      A professionally trained, well-paid *human* teacher is absolutely the only thing that educates a child.

      Everything else is just a tool.

      After working in education I can say this is not quite true. Teachers that aren't due for retirement in the technological forseeable future are really quite scared about where it is all heading and are often ill-equipped to deal with changes -- hence, the knee-jerk reaction from teachers and those that are a bit older and don't quite like the new world we live in.

      Reality is that many years ago there were 3 types people to do maintenance and repairs on school grounds (lockers, grounds, woodwork equipment) and technology has reduced this to one guy with a bunch of tools. Reports collections were done by teams of people, as well as mass tests, and finance, which has largely been automated to cut down on staff and increase efficiency. No way would people want to wait for test results any more like they used to.

      Technology will inevitably come into the classroom to work with and, yes, displace some teachers. The main aim of a school is to provide educational outcomes for students and not employment for teachers. Technology can replace teachers in some areas and should do so that students have more ready access to some materials.

      Books and high costs should be replaced with tablets (although these don't have to be expensive iPads) and an Internet connection can give access to information your parent's parent's would have only dreamed about (they had on average 30 points lower IQ as well). One day technology will allow university level quantum mechanics to be taught in early high school, along with quarks and the particle zoo. You can't stop progress.

    25. Re:^This by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      I don't see how my experience is irrelevant.

      Your experience is like someone who goes into the store and buys a lottery ticket on a whim and wins a million bucks. Based on your experience we should do away with jobs and payrolls and just buy lottery tickets. In your experience, one ticket is all it takes to be rich for a long time. Other people's experiences are vastly different. Should your experience be the guide for everyone, or should we admit that planning on the exceptional is not a good plan?

      I, and others I know, are examples that the kind of direct supervision that teachers provide is not necessary to learn.

      You hang around with other people who are not average. That's nice. And you still don't know that the job of a primary school is not "learn", it is an education. Anyone can learn just what they want to learn without supervision. Getting an education means sometimes being forced to learn things that you don't think are fun or exciting. When the majority thinks that history and social studies and even math are boring and unexciting, then you can't just abandon them and say "they could learn it by themselves if they wanted to", you need to provide supervision so they do. And supervision so that at least some idea of what is considered a good education appears in front of a student -- every student.

      You did need supervision ("a project") to learn parts of computing you didn't like. Your experience is not what most people go through, and even you prove you aren't totally supervision free.

      just that teachers aren't the only source of instruction.

      Nobody said they were.

      Databases of hundreds of thousands of math questions can be created, and textbooks could have access to all of them.

      You don't need hundreds of thousands of math problems to teach math. In fact, if you need to have that many you are doing something wrong. The principles can be taught with far fewer.

      There are a large number of students who would sit reading comic books all day if they were left to their own devices. Before the demise of the pinball parlor, that's where a lot of them would spend their time. (And I used to work at one, so I've seen it first hand. The only reason that some of them weren't there all day is because we were instructed to throw them out if they showed up before 3PM.) Do we say "people can learn without supervision so let's just do it that way", or do we actually try to provide a good education to people who would otherwise become wards of the state, unable to make change for a dollar if their life depended on it?

    26. Re:^This by ranton · · Score: 1

      Should your experience be the guide for everyone, or should we admit that planning on the exceptional is not a good plan?

      I think using the exceptional for a guide is a great idea. Educational powerhouses like Korea and Finland show that if you expect more from students they usually rise to the challenge. My experience wasn't someone who defied the odds and self-taught despite some horrible environment fighting against me (a "lottery ticket" type scenario). I was simply brought up in an environment that encouraged self-discovery. That is not an environment that schools are incapable of emulating. (even though very few do this today)

      Anyone can learn just what they want to learn without supervision. Getting an education means sometimes being forced to learn things that you don't think are fun or exciting.

      That can still be done with self-learning. A student can still be given a curriculum that includes topics they aren't interested in. And testing is a pretty good way of determining if the students are actually paying attention. In fact, new technology will make creating metrics even easier. Eye tracking software can determine if students are paying attention when watching a video lecture, questions that determine comprehension can be delivered throughout the lecture to test comprehension. Supplemental lectures could be shown to go over areas that the student is struggling in so every single student has their own "private tutor". And like I said in another post, the real breakthroughs will be techniques I can't even imagine right now.

      You don't need hundreds of thousands of math problems to teach math. In fact, if you need to have that many you are doing something wrong. The principles can be taught with far fewer.

      I never said you need that many questions per student. But how do you determine which questions are working and which ones aren't? Without computers we are limited to the hundred questions sitting in some textbook, with no scientific rigor in selecting those questions. In the near future we can rely on innovators that create new ways to educate and can easily test every hypothesis on tens of thousands of students in thousands of different permutations to see which work and which don't.

      There could even be hundreds of different lectures on every topic, each given to thousands of different students. Tests would then be able to determine which lectures are working and which aren't. Some students may benefit from different types of instruction than other students. Each student could watch their own individually tailored lectures and have their own individually tailored projects and be given their own individually tailored homework and test questions.

      There are so many options once human manpower is no longer the limiting factor.

      There are a large number of students who would sit reading comic books all day if they were left to their own devices. Before the demise of the pinball parlor, that's where a lot of them would spend their time.

      I never said to do away with school. Just the reliance of human teachers to relay most information to students. I led off my original post with saying that teachers are still important to the education process. But teachers are not the only way to provide education, and certain tasks such as creating curriculums, lecturing, creating homework / test questions, and tracking performance are not what we should be using them for in the near future.

      I look forward to a day where teachers are more like personal tutors than the lecture providers that they are today.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    27. Re:^This by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      That can still be done with self-learning. A student can still be given a curriculum that includes topics they aren't interested in.

      Who supervises these students to 1) give them the curriculum and 2) make sure they follow it?

      But how do you determine which questions are working and which ones aren't?

      What you are advocating is turning our children into guinea pigs. Let's throw hundreds of thousands of math problems at them and see which ones work and which ones don't. Let's throw hundreds of different lectures at them and see which ones work and which ones don't. If your child is the unlucky one to get the problems and lectures that didn't work, well, sorry, maybe your next child in line will get the education your first one missed out on.

      I look forward to a day where teachers are more like personal tutors than the lecture providers that they are today.

      Wouldn't it be nice if there were enough money in the pool so that teachers could be personal tutors instead of being in charge of a whole class. As for "lecture providers", that's already gone. You've got half of what you want, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater, ok?

    28. Re:^This by ranton · · Score: 1

      Who supervises these students to 1) give them the curriculum and 2) make sure they follow it?

      Once again, I never said teachers will ever be completely out of the loop. At the absolute minimum you will always still need adults there for simple crowd control. It is not much different than modern factories. There are still factory workers, just less of them and they do different tasks than they did 50 years ago. Although for teaching I hope there aren't many reductions in the number of teachers, just a shift of what their common tasks are.

      What you are advocating is turning our children into guinea pigs. Let's throw hundreds of thousands of math problems at them and see which ones work and which ones don't. Let's throw hundreds of different lectures at them and see which ones work and which ones don't. If your child is the unlucky one to get the problems and lectures that didn't work, well, sorry, maybe your next child in line will get the education your first one missed out on.

      Actually today we are treating children as guinea pigs but with no positive benefits. Today there are about 90,000 elementary teachers giving 90,000 different lectures each day and giving 90,000 different sets of test questions and homework assignments to their students each chapter/unit/etc. Standardized testings and curriculum at the federal, state, district, and school level reduce those numbers somewhat, but students are still getting millions of unique lectures/homework/tests each year.

      This is incredibly inefficient and it is very difficult to measure what works and what doesn't. I am advocating that we reduce the number of different lectures and try to determine which ones are working best.

      As for "lecture providers", that's already gone. You've got half of what you want, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater, ok?

      I am not aware of any such change. Teachers still spend quite a bit of time lecturing in modern classrooms.

      Wouldn't it be nice if there were enough money in the pool so that teachers could be personal tutors instead of being in charge of a whole class.

      It would be nice, but it doesn't necessarily take more money or more teachers. Automating and consolidating common tasks such as lecturing, creating homework / tests, and basic Q&A could free them to spend more time on other tasks. I used to write software for pharmacists, and our software significantly reduced the number of pharmacists it took to complete their work. But pharmacists were rarely fired; instead the hospitals found other work for them that improved the quality of patient care even more.

      The same can be done for teachers.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
    29. Re:^This by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      A What we need are voucher programs, more home schooling, teachers and schools that have to compete,...

      Why does the US need to try a completely new education setup, with no large trials or evidence of improvement. Why not adopt any number of education systems around the world that have been proven effective...

      Iceland, for example.

    30. Re:^This by fermion · · Score: 1

      It kind of depends what you metrics are. I think there is a valid option for choices in education, but those choices have to balanced with society interests. Charter schools, at least in my are, are constantly being sued for stealing money and inappropriate behavior with kids, and many simply trade cash for a diploma Most of the home school kids I know are never going to college because the skills they are being taught are ludicrously out of date. The smart home school kid, or the good charter school, is likely more an exception than they rule, just like the superior public school. All of these require a bias in the sample set. The same goes for private school. I went to a crap one for a couple years because we could not afford a decent one. There are no valid research studies that say charter school provide superior results. The commenter must either be an educator or a social scientists because those are the only groups who believe the research that supports charter schools. Probably also believes human induced climate change is a conspiracy. It is hard to say that most schools are awful considering that millions of students are graduated every year that end up living a integrated and productive life. Schools may not put out the kind of students that wingnuts and conspiracy theorists want, but they do put out productive kids, most of who go out and find jobs and raise families and pay taxes.It is merely an ideological stance that public schools are bad, just like it is an ideological stance that same kind of health care that congress and military enjoy would be bad for the general public. On topic, most kids today are going to be using computers as productivity tools their entire lives. Those kids lucky enough to have a computer are going to be the ones who are the ones that are going to learn to interact and manage their time with a computer, and are going to be the ones that will be more likely to leverage it as a tool and not a toy. One of the biggest reasons that so many people are ideologically against public schools, IMHO, is that they tend to provide a uniform platform in which all kids can learn and gain access to tools no matter what their social or economic status might be. This is why so many are cool with public schools teaching auto mechanics or hair styling or HVAC, but trying to give kids mad skills and everyone is talking about how you are wasting money because all the kids are going to do it go out and sell drugs.

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
  32. Why blame the teachers? They didn't want this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    "and then watching the idea fizzle because teachers weren't properly trained to use it and it just ended up in the closet."

    Well that's convenient, now it's the teacher's fault?

    Administrators are the ones who come up with these crazy ideas to flood classrooms with pointless, unusable technology. Teachers just want to teach. An English or Math teacher shouldn't have to be some kind of expert on iPads to do their job.

    I'm sure every teacher involved would have much rather had the money for technology spent on the basics: textbooks, supplies, maintaining a clean and safe campus, bringing back programs like art, music, etc.

    Teachers don't *want* this kind of technology, only administrators do. Let's not pretend this failed because of the teachers, it failed because it was a terrible idea and the value of devices like iPads in the context of education hasn't even been proven to exist. All studies support the notion that technology in the classroom is a distraction, and there is no data showing they assist learning at all.

  33. Technical Details? by jon3k · · Score: 1

    Anyone know how the devices were secured and how it was bypassed? Did they use some type of MDM solution (eg MobileIron, Air-Watch, etc)? Anyone have any technical details?

  34. Idiot administrators. by MaWeiTao · · Score: 1

    This just goes to show the extraordinary stupidity of school administrators and politicians. iPads and the like are toys, nothing more. Anyone who spends even 15 minutes observing a kid on one of these devices would see that. Kids will gravitate towards the most entertaining educational game they can find at which point it's just a game. Pencil and paper is still a far more effective set of tools for learning. And for older kids, you're basically just giving them a glorified text book. At that point they'll try to hack it, like these kids in LA have, or they'll never touch it because it's boring. Then let's not forget the logistics of the whole program, and how many of these will get destroyed throughout the school year.

    Politicians have convinced the stupid population that more money is always the solution. They're more interested in pandering for influence than solving problems. So they'll build a beautiful school in some crime-ridden inner city neighborhood, and stuff it full of expensive crap like these iPads and expect that the problems are going to solve themselves. Within 5 to 10 years the school has devolved back into the dump it was meant to replace. Why? Because too many parents don't give a shit. The ones who do care get fed up with the problems and move out. So there's no concerted effort to fundamentally address these problems. Except for teachers, the ones who haven't given up anyway. Unfortunately, they're perpetually underpaid because even though a municipality will raise taxes for schools it doesn't mean it will go anywhere useful.

    So many things would improve if parents were held more accountable for their kids instead of offering yet another handout, this time in the form of an iPad.

  35. Re:It took the kids THAT long? by sjames · · Score: 2

    It probably took the students 10 minutes to kill the lock-down and the school a week to notice.

  36. and they think they won't? by zaax · · Score: 1

    Any kid who can't crack them needs more education.

  37. Device Distraction will Ruin Education by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I see it in colleges all the time - a room full of students clacking away on their laptops or tapping away on their tablets, completely oblivious to what the instructor is saying and doing.

    Over the last ten years of being adjunct faculty at a local university, I've seen this trend continue at alarming rates. There is a huge push by Apple and others to evolve college from institutions of higher learning to institutions of learning how to look stuff up on the Internet with a mobile device.

    Need to build a bridge? There's an app for that that links you to a Wikipedia article on building bridges. It's hilarious and mortifying at the same time that these administrators think that giving every student a laptop or tablet will solve their institution's educational problems. Perhaps it's the kickbacks we all know they are getting from the device manufacturers.

    My alma mater experimented with the "connected classroom" back in the 1990s, and it proved to be a failure. The students taking a class in the "connected classroom" with laptops for notes got lower grades and had a harder time defending their understanding of the subject matter.

  38. Cant get the news by ruir · · Score: 1

    So running an app to hack iPads is news?

  39. No Recourse? by craigminah · · Score: 1

    I would think the school district would have the student sign something where the student would have to relinquish the iPad if they modified it to gain access to unauthorized content or circumvent the school software. If only students would put this much effort into learning...

    1. Re:No Recourse? by hyades1 · · Score: 1

      Why would you think doing something like this is NOT learning?

      --
      I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
    2. Re:No Recourse? by craigminah · · Score: 1

      Everything is technically "learning" but it's not the intent of the school district to hand out iPads only to have student hack them so they can surf YouTube and play Angry Bird in class.

  40. iPads in the Enterprise and Classroom by mschaffer · · Score: 2

    iPads are not designed for the Enterprise, let alone for the classroom...
    Teachers don't need more gadgets getting in the way of teaching...
    What were they thinking?
    Teachers need to teach, not be the first-line of the Help Desk.

  41. Pure stupidity by DrXym · · Score: 1
    Stupid #1 - using an iPad, one of the most expensive thief attractive tablets on the market and one of the most proprietary.

    Stupid #2 - thinking that client side software (doubtless very shoddy client side software) could stop students who want to look at porn in class.

    A smarter programme would have required students to buy their own tablets that supported some common platform (which Apple, Google or anybody else could implement) and put the firewall / netnanny filter as a transparent proxy in the school's wifi. Then there is nothing to "hack", at least not in the devices.

    1. Re:Pure stupidity by thewolfkin · · Score: 1

      A smarter programme would have required students to buy their own tablets

      stop there. your plan is dead. Believe it or not even $100 tablets aren't within everyone's school budget.

      --
      Just another second banana
    2. Re:Pure stupidity by DrXym · · Score: 1

      Yet $600 tablets are? One way or another people are paying for them. And besides, how much do schoolbooks cost?

    3. Re:Pure stupidity by P-niiice · · Score: 1

      individual books are going for hundreds each.

    4. Re:Pure stupidity by thewolfkin · · Score: 1

      these were given to the students. They didn't have to fork out $600 for their locked down iPads. This is high school. I don't recall paying for books in high school. My argument isn't that textbooks are cheaper for the system. I'm speaking from the student perspective. You don't buy books in high school so throwing on that book price (in the form of what is a de facto mandatory purchase of a tablet) will hurt people.

      --
      Just another second banana
  42. big lecture classes are Ruining Education by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    And when you force people to go to them they will just zone out and do what even to pass the time even more so if it's just reading from the text book.

  43. You can't by gerardrj · · Score: 1

    You can never solve a social problem with technological solutions. Social problems need social controls.

    Hack your iPad: 1 week detention. Second time: 1 week suspension. Do it again: expulsion.

    There is no way to keep kids from writing on the walls (prohibit markers?), drawing profanity on white boards (lock them behind glass?) or any sort of vandalism. Pass the rules, publicize the first few detentions, suspensions or expulsions and the problem will all but go away in two weeks. Sure there will be sporadic incidents but not district-wide bypasses as the article speaks to,

    --
    Article X: The powers not delegated... by the Constitution...are reserved...to the people
    1. Re:You can't by thewolfkin · · Score: 1

      what about birth control. That's a technological solution that had been responsible for huge shift in social problems. I'm not saying this was a good idea but technology in general can be used to solve problems even social ones. Sometimes.

      --
      Just another second banana
    2. Re:You can't by gerardrj · · Score: 1

      Since it depends upon the willingness of the woman to take the drug I don't consider that a technological solution. And I don't think I consider pregnancy a social problem. A personal problem if anything.

      You could argue that pregnancy in under-educated, poverty stricken or unfit parent situations is a social problem, but if those were solved by pregnancy control drugs then why are the problems still around?

      --
      Article X: The powers not delegated... by the Constitution...are reserved...to the people
    3. Re:You can't by thewolfkin · · Score: 1

      Since it depends upon the willingness of the woman to take the drug I don't consider that a technological solution. And I don't think I consider pregnancy a social problem. A personal problem if anything.

      You could argue that pregnancy in under-educated, poverty stricken or unfit parent situations is a social problem, but if those were solved by pregnancy control drugs then why are the problems still around?

      I said a huge shift I didn't suggest that the pill fixed everything. and I'd argue that the fact that there is an option out there is representative of a solution. Solutions and applications aren't always the same thing. The problem being women not having control over their lives in a modern context due to the risk of unanticipated pregnancy. There are a lot of things women couldn't do because they might get pregnant and now the problem has been mostly resolved in many (not all) cases by the fact that there is the technology to allow you to control your reproductive cycle.

      --
      Just another second banana
  44. Re:Fucking by webmistressrachel · · Score: 1, Interesting

    It's interesting, and relevant, to contrast what the Americans are doing with Apple and their locked-down, passive consumer, computing device, and what the BBC did with Acorn Computers - specifically chosen because the computer was designed with learning about the device itself, as well as what can be created and worked on with it.

    It's also interesting that another bidder for the BBC Micro Project - Sinclair - didn't get a look in because they were game- and entertainment- orientated - anybody remember the frustration of trying to type a program using words embossed on the keys? I do, and I hated it. The Amstrad CPC, was the antithesis of this, and with hindsight, I was glad I had one, and not a ZX (even though I was then "stuck" with that machine until I was 14!)

    --
    This tagline was transcoded to result in at least one smirk. If you experience failure to smirk, please consult your Gen
  45. at least they're useful now by WillgasM · · Score: 1

    Nothing motivated me to learn about computers more than bypassing policy restrictions and web filters at school. I wound up becoming our student admin, starting computer clubs, and even changed my mind about the school and degree I had planned for college.
    Also, It sounds like the kids have managed to configure the devices the way they should have been configured in the first place. If my HS had handed me a device for tracking my whereabouts and logging my web activity, I would have handed it right back. Surely they have internet filters on the school's WiFi, so this software is meant to stop kids from using Facebook on their own time. Oh, and don't forget that the school's essentially sticking a GPS tracker on your kids, because apparently that's acceptable nowadays.
    I still think schools handing out tablets is a stupid idea (esp anything that starts with "i"), but I'm glad the kids are finding a way to use them.

  46. If it were the Federal government by gelfling · · Score: 1

    They'd sue Apple for this.

  47. Re:Not a Tech problem. by thewolfkin · · Score: 1

    but the schools arent the ones pushing no child left behind that's above their head. that's like punishing the middle manager for a stupid company wide policy. and schools are supposed to be learning environment. You're supposed to gain tools you need to stay focused in school. not just left to flounder to your own advices. If you just act spitefully and let the kids fail who don't try their hardest you're not a school you're basically a library.

    --
    Just another second banana
  48. I hope my kid's school never does this by morgauxo · · Score: 1

    I understand why they would want to track such an investment, especially after handing them out to a bunch of kids but I don't want my kid carrying around an iPad which is sending her location to some school board!

    For that reason I MIGHT support or even help her crack it but.. I don't want her to be in a position to have to make the decision to crack, risking some sort of consequence from the school or be tracked. They shouldn't be putting kids or parents in that position.

    As for the filtering software.. well.. I can understand why schools would do that to. They don't want to be giving the kids a shiny new porn portal do they? But that doesn't mean that I want the local school board or whatever official being the one to decide what my kid gets access to or doesn't. That is MY job!

    So... including tablets in their education... probably a good idea because they are such a large part of the modern world. But.. let us provide our own. Also.. enough with the iOS stuff. Is the school system trying to help build a new monopoly? Support 'bring your own device' and do support Android. Preferably support both iOS and Android but if that isn't practical at least chose Android over iOS since more than one company can compete for our money.

    Saddly, I see what the trend is and when she reaches that age there will probably be iPads involved. Actually, her pre-school is already trying to get them for the teachers!

  49. Re:It took the kids THAT long? by Diss+Champ · · Score: 1

    More like it took longer to get around to students unwise enough to reveal what they had done.

  50. Re:itsnotsobad by omnichad · · Score: 1

    but not without it's hickups.

    Freudian slip? Pun? Don't leave us hanging on the details.

  51. Delay? Why? by johnwerneken · · Score: 1

    Sounds like the devices have already accomplished all they can: the students have learned how to master their iPads and are now using them exactly as they please. Which is what human being do with anything they find lying about in their environment. HOORAH!

    If the ideas were to empower, to teach electronic/digital literacy, to open minds to options and to information, mission accomplished!

    Probably the only thing NOT learned by now, is adult interaction with others. Perhaps when these kids are 10 or 20 years older, THAT may be largely digitally mediated as well.

  52. Admiral Tuck runs the LA school districts? by Yakasha · · Score: 1
    Who else would tout an all-powerful death star in an age of The Force? Or be upset if they discovered some 1% of the student body (200 of 15,000) discovered the trench Apple laid out to reach the iPad's exhaust port?

    Who cares if they crack it? If you care, you're in for a whole lot of disappointment (Unless, of course, you're in support of the cracking) because it WILL happen.

    1% of the users found ways around the blocking. The only thing that means is you have 200 students that would be interested in a new, advanced computer-related curriculum. The other 14,800 drones can continue their daily lives unaffected, and unaware, of this non-event.

    So they're reassessing the rollout plan... No doubt it will return, soon, with an exhaust port big enough to fly a cargo freighter inside.

    1. Re:Admiral Tuck runs the LA school districts? by Yakasha · · Score: 1

      Who else would tout an all-powerful death star in an age of The Force? Or be upset if they discovered some 1% of the student body (200 of 15,000) discovered the trench Apple laid out to reach the iPad's exhaust port?

      Who cares if they crack it? If you care, you're in for a whole lot of disappointment (Unless, of course, you're in support of the cracking) because it WILL happen.

      1% of the users found ways around the blocking. The only thing that means is you have 200 students that would be interested in a new, advanced computer-related curriculum. The other 14,800 drones can continue their daily lives unaffected, and unaware, of this non-event.

      So they're reassessing the rollout plan... No doubt it will return, soon, with an exhaust port big enough to fly a cargo freighter inside.

      Hell, take the students that cracked the iPad, and put them in a class with the goal of blocking further hacks...

  53. Re:In what universe? by Minwee · · Score: 1

    Kindles retail substantially less than an iPad, so in what universe would kindles cost more and have less software?

    That would be the universe in which you are trying to sell a billion dollars worth of iPads to the LAUSD.

    In that universe, Kindles are also made by terrorists and are prone to exploding if you hold them wrong.

  54. what utter lunacy by eyenot · · Score: 1

    It's total bullshit to blame a handful of relatively anonymous California grade school teachers for the failure of an Apple security feature. You might as well go all the way and blame them for several "immutable laws" of information and security.

    --
    "Stratigraphically the origin of agriculture and thermonuclear destruction will appear essentially simultaneous" -- Lee
  55. autodidacts by globaljustin · · Score: 1

    Lots of people learn in different ways.

    I'll allow it.

    I am a staunch advocate for highest quality public education, but I don't mean that to be some sort of magic bullet.

    Properly trained educators, however, are better able to identify strongly independent learners or 'gifted & talented' students and give them proper accomidations

    Also, the latest education strategies encourage (or in some states mandate) teachers design lesson plans to all learning types.

    Professional teachers...well paid...again not a magic bullet but everyone reading this can understand how a professionally trained person who is plain bad at their job is easier to remediate.

    On a personal note, I feel my education let me down. I went to a private religious school that strongly discouraged my plans to eventually get a PhD from a 'secular' (read: accredited) university after HS. My love of science was stronger than their dogma but when I became a public school teacher, I was simultaneously amazed and enraged at how well the school system handled 'different' students of all types.

    --
    Thank you Dave Raggett
  56. used to be.... by globaljustin · · Score: 1

    one last thing I saw mentioned below I'll clear up: I'm not currently a teacher nor do I have close family employed in K-12 education...these are just my thoughts

    I have taught all kinds of stuff all over the world at all levels (Korea, snowboarding, public HS, adjunct prof) but am no longer actively involved in the education profession.

    --
    Thank you Dave Raggett
  57. see above... by globaljustin · · Score: 1

    I responded to another post similar to yours above...

    the tl;dr is that I agree there is no magic bullet & just as you I acknowledge all types of learning scenarios/types...beneath it all, however, is the public education system...when done right it can handle *anything*

    --
    Thank you Dave Raggett
  58. "Huge History"? by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 1

    From the summary: 'There is a huge history in American education of being attracted to the new, shiny, hugely promising bauble and then watching the idea fizzle because teachers weren't properly trained to use it and it just ended up in the closet.'

    Knowing several educators in the public school system, including my wife, I can say that the above statement isn't a 'huge history' of American education these days, but one of the defining principles. Even good public schools (and I believe here in Virginia our schools are overall pretty good) suffer from this problem. There seems to be almost no one in the equation who actually understands technology and how it can be, and should be, used to enhance education, and the inevitable result is a bunch of money wasted that could be put to infinitely better use, a bunch of teachers being further burdened with tasks that have little or nothing to do with actually educating their students, and a bunch of vendors laughing all the way to the bank... not to mention the students who are always the first ones to be sold out. This is American public schools in a nutshell.

    This kind of thing always happens to government monopolies... and don't tell me the public school system isn't a monopoly. Until I can get a voucher that lets me take my share of the public education budget set aside for my kids and use it to enroll them in the schools of my choice... it's a monopoly.

    By the way, my kids _are_ in public schools, and overall, like I mentioned above, I'm reasonably satisfied with service and education they have received, including special ed resources, but there's still a lot left to be desired.

    --
    You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
  59. not mutually exclusive by globaljustin · · Score: 1

    home schooled children....charter schools....voucher programs...

    how is this different than what I said? I emphasized *human*...and indeed all your scenarios involve a human...home school/charters/voucers/etc are all just variations on the same thing as a public school....human teaching human...it's just different contexts

    **NO MATTER WHAT THE CONTEXT** a shitty teacher will not educate a child properly

    your argument is a complete fallacy...you jump on one linguistic crack in my argument (how I said 'professionally trained' which might be taken that I am excluding homeschooling completely)...and away you go to Glenn Beck land...

    stop it.......it's people like you who *ruin* any chance of productive discussion on this topic

    Opening up the teaching profession to anyone with a bachelor's degree and a demonstrated knowledge of a subject (english, math, science) would be even better

    every state does this now...every single one...I used to teach (not anymore) and got certified in two states based on my BA degree alone....

    just to recap, everything about your post agrees with my point that *humans* teach humans...not technology or budgets or voucher...

    --
    Thank you Dave Raggett
  60. some people are in academia for years with limmted by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    some people are in academia for years with limited real work place skills and that turns out people loaded with skill gaps

  61. Copying by zooblethorpe · · Score: 1

    I applaud them for getting around the blocks. Teachers need to use that ingenuity.

    Realistically, one kid should be applauded. The remaining students were just copycats.

    Sorry to burst your bubble, but copying is a large part of how people learn.

    Cheers,

    --
    "What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
    "A four-foot prune."
  62. Predictable by Karmashock · · Score: 1

    Who would have actually thought that the systems would have remained secure here?

    And yet the LAUSD was surprised. Their quality of help must be astounding.

    The average idiot on this board knows better... and they don't while making billion dollar choices. Just process that.

    --
    I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
  63. iPads are equivalent to a TV, not a laptop by omfglearntoplay · · Score: 1

    They aren't good for learning with a hands on approach. They are better for just looking at junk. In that case, just use books and a blackboard, right? Because you can't play on those and get distracted.

  64. Re:kids arnt stupid by cusco · · Score: 1

    what did they think was going to happen.
     
    Apparently not learn to spell or use punctuation.

    --
    "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
  65. Discovery of Student Hacked iPads takes one week by tengu1sd · · Score: 1

    It's more likely it took a week before any staff members noticed students were doing "fun" things with iPads.

  66. So hackers loose? by Bust0ut · · Score: 1

    So we are progressing without the broad reach of a governance by developing hack counter measures instead of exacting legal punishment. Then if hackers are pre-discovering flaws and high school kids are using them, where are the fixes? Closed source I guess, haha!

    --
    He is crazy if you think about it; I am not.