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Study Linking GM Maize To Rat Tumors Is Retracted

ananyo writes "Bowing to scientists' near-universal scorn, the journal Food and Chemical Toxicology has fulfilled its threat to retract a controversial paper which claimed that a genetically modified (GM) maize causes serious disease in rats after the authors refused to withdraw it. The paper, from a research group led by Gilles-Eric Séralini, a molecular biologist at the University of Caen, France, and published in 2012, showed 'no evidence of fraud or intentional misrepresentation of the data,' said a statement from Elsevier, which publishes the journal. But the small number and type of animals used in the study means that 'no definitive conclusions can be reached.' The known high incidence of tumors in the Sprague-Dawley rat 'cannot be excluded as the cause of the higher mortality and incidence observed in the treated groups,' it added. Today's move came as no surprise. Earlier this month, the journal's editor-in-chief, Wallace Hayes, threatened retraction if Séralini refused to withdraw the paper, which is exactly what he announced at a press conference in Brussels this morning. Séralini and his team remained unrepentant, and allege that the retraction derives from the journal's editorial appointment of biologist Richard Goodman, who previously worked for biotechnology giant Monsanto for seven years."

341 comments

  1. maize?? by ganjadude · · Score: 0

    really?? I mean sure it is proper but who uses the term maize any longer??

    (for those who are not up to date, maize is the native american term for corn)

    --
    have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    1. Re:maize?? by khallow · · Score: 5, Informative

      who uses the term maize any longer??

      Scientific researchers for starters. And anyone who speaks Spanish.

    2. Re:maize?? by FilmedInNoir · · Score: 5, Informative

      really?? I mean sure it is proper but who uses the term maize any longer?? (for those who are not up to date, maize is the native american term for corn)

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maize
      TL;DR Maize is preferred in formal, scientific, and international usage because it refers specifically to this one grain, unlike corn, which has a complex variety of meanings that vary by context and geographic region.

      --
      Sig. Sig. Sputnik
    3. Re:maize?? by JustOK · · Score: 2

      Wasn't Willie Maize the Catcher in the Rye? Or am I thinking about Yogi Berra?

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    4. Re:maize?? by SuricouRaven · · Score: 5, Informative

      Come to Europe. We grow corn too - but our corn is a different plant entirely.

      When European settlers came to the new world, they found a lot of new species they had no names for. So they named them after something familiar from back home. 'Corn' was named because it was the staple crop, just like the 'corn' back home - otherwise known as wheat, or the stuff cornflakes and bread are made from. This is also why you have a robin that isn't even in the same family as the european robin: It has a similar red breast, so it was called a robin.

    5. Re:maize?? by AlecC · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Maize is the term used in the UK, where corn means, usually, wheat - sometimes barley.

      Many dictionaries say that "corn" means the local most common grain crop, and therefore each grain type needs another name for use where it is not the most common.

      --
      Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
    6. Re:maize?? by Sarten-X · · Score: 2

      Billy Maize is the Pitcher in the Rye.

      ...Slashdot needs a comment filter for bad pun density.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    7. Re:maize?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      "Corn outside North America, Australia, and New Zealand means any cereal crop" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maize)

      That's quite a good reason for being specific.

      Also Maiz is the Taino (native american) name for the plant, Maize is a modern derivative of that and the technically correct name.

    8. Re:maize?? by gregor-e · · Score: 4, Informative

      Albanian - misër
      Cebuano - mais
      Danish - majs
      Dutch - maïs
      Esperanto - maizo
      Estonian - mais
      Filipino - mais
      Finnish - maissi
      French - maïs
      German - Mais
      Haitian Creole - mayi
      Italian - mais
      Norwegian - mais
      Spanish - maíz
      Swedish - majs
      Turkish - misir

    9. Re:maize?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (for those who are not up to date, maize is the native american term for corn)

      More specifically, "maize" is the formal and generally-accepted word for the type of corn which most people in the US refer to as "corn", whereas most types of corn (oats, rice, wheat) are not maize at all.

    10. Re:maize?? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 5, Funny

      Well that explains a lot of things - Healthcare, Democrat, Football.

      No wonder we're so confused. It's all your fault.

      USA! USA! USA!

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    11. Re: maize?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have cornflakes made of wheat? Wacky.

    12. Re:maize?? by Joce640k · · Score: 2

      really?? I mean sure it is proper but who uses the term maize any longer??

      Oh dear, you just opened a can of whoop-ass on yourself....

      --
      No sig today...
    13. Re: maize?? by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      Looked it up, and... you are right. Cornflakes are made from maize. Huh.

      After the processing they look quite unlike their source crop. I just always assumed they were wheat without thinking much about it, having seen a television program with information about their origin. On some research it appears that while the early cornflakes were made from wheat, the recipe has since been heavily revised - one of the revisions being the switch from wheat to maze as the primary ingredient.

      I get the impression Kellogg himself would be very unhappy with the cereal today. He made it to be a healthy breakfast food, and the company has since switched ingredients for cheaper maze and loaded it up with added sugar and high-fructose syrup. But then, this is the man who worked tirelessly to reintroduce circumcision to the US as a preemptive way discourage masturbation, so screw him.

    14. Re: maize?? by SuricouRaven · · Score: 1

      And yes, I know I misspelt 'maize' twice.

    15. Re:maize?? by JustOK · · Score: 1

      That's right. Yogi Berra snatched piknik baskets.

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    16. Re: maize?? by compro01 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      But then, this is the man who worked tirelessly to reintroduce circumcision to the US as a preemptive way discourage masturbation, so screw him.

      Corn flakes were a variation on that theme. Kellogg was a follower of the ideas of Sylvester Graham (who also invented the "masturbation causes blindness" nuttery). He believed that spicy or sweet foods led to "passions" and "impure thoughts".

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    17. Re:maize?? by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 2

      BILLY MAIZE HERE!

      --
      Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
    18. Re:maize?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "I never snatched a lot of those pik-ih-nik baskets I snatched." - Y. Berra

    19. Re:maize?? by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      Funniest comment of the month and no mod points...

    20. Re:maize?? by Charliemopps · · Score: 1

      Everyone outside of the English speaking US.

    21. Re:maize?? by ganjadude · · Score: 4, Informative

      Thank you for that, now i feel foolish for posting heh

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    22. Re:maize?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cornflakes are made from Maize not Wheat.

    23. Re:maize?? by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Not everyone. "Corn on the cob" is labeled as such in Australia and other places outside the US. It's not "maize on the cob." I've not looked for it in the UK, so no idea of the labeling there.

    24. Re: maize?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Umm, why didn't we call the Eastern bluebird a robin, then?

    25. Re:maize?? by tuxgeek · · Score: 1

      Billy Maize (Mays) also sold piles of worthless crap through infomercials.

      --
      "Suppose you were an idiot...and suppose you were a member of Congress...but I repeat myself." Mark Twain
    26. Re:maize?? by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      So the corn that Jimmy cracked was wheat -- he was husking wheat! It finally makes sense!

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    27. Re:maize?? by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      Here in the UK its called sweet corn, and is shortened to corn on the cob.

    28. Re:maize?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      See also the Scandinavian languages, where "korn" means "grain(s)", and "mais" is yellow and comes on cobs. (Wheat is "hvete".)

    29. Re:maize?? by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Which is one of the other points people point out that's been shot down. Corn is corn everywhere, even where "corn" is not unambiguous. I've never heard it called anything else in common use. Though other words are used in technical settings.

    30. Re:maize?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      China -
      Russia -
      Hebrew -
      Yiddish -
      Hindi -
      Shlasdot - (crickets)

    31. Re: maize?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Willie Maize played center field for the Giants.

    32. Re: maize?? by Nyder · · Score: 1

      But then, this is the man who worked tirelessly to reintroduce circumcision to the US as a preemptive way discourage masturbation, so screw him.

      Corn flakes were a variation on that theme. Kellogg was a follower of the ideas of Sylvester Graham (who also invented the "masturbation causes blindness" nuttery). He believed that spicy or sweet foods led to "passions" and "impure thoughts".

      Weird, I was raised that the devil whispered those thoughts to you...

      --
      Be seeing you...
    33. Re: maize?? by JustOK · · Score: 1

      Weren't the Giants beaten by the Elves and Dwarves?

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    34. Re:maize?? by LordWabbit2 · · Score: 1

      Or anyone else outside the world - oops I mean the USA.
      You can take your colorful words and shove it up your coulorful backside.

      Along with
      centre vs center
      fibre vs fiber
      litre vs liter
      theatre vs theater
      colour vs color (thank you for this, I lost several points in english because I was reading too many American books)
      flavour vs flavor
      humour vs humor
      labour vs labor
      neighbour vs neighbor
      analyse vs analyze
      breathalyse vs breathalyze
      paralyse vs paralyze
      and the list goes on...
      Go murder another language. Leave english alone.
      Oh, and ./ your dictionary needs to be updated.

      --
      There are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third is statistics.
    35. Re: maize?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Everyone knows giants are make believe. Just like elves, gremlins, and eskimos.

    36. Re: maize?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Grampa is the devil??!

    37. Re: maize?? by blind+monkey+3 · · Score: 1

      He believed that spicy or sweet foods led to "passions" and "impure thoughts".

      So THAT'S why I have impure thoughts!

      --
      BM3
    38. Re: maize?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Off to the market to buy more ghost chilies - just in the name of research of course.

    39. Re:maize?? by hawkinspeter · · Score: 1

      Aluminium vs aluminum?

      --
      You're a temporary arrangement of matter sliding towards oblivion in a cold, uncaring universe
    40. Re:maize?? by hawkinspeter · · Score: 1

      I live in the UK and maize is mainly a US term. We use "corn" to mean maize. Wheat and barley are called "wheat" and "barley" and never "corn".

      --
      You're a temporary arrangement of matter sliding towards oblivion in a cold, uncaring universe
    41. Re:maize?? by hawkinspeter · · Score: 1

      Here in the UK, corn always mean maize and never wheat or barley.

      --
      You're a temporary arrangement of matter sliding towards oblivion in a cold, uncaring universe
    42. Re:maize?? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      You do realize that most of American spellings are actually closer to what English used to be before Brits "murdered" it (to make it look more like French, because that was posh at the time).

      Also, did you seriously study English somewhere where they insisted on British spelling? That's... quaint.

    43. Re:maize?? by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      "Don't believe everything you read on the Internet."
      —Abraham Lincoln.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    44. Re: maize?? by SpaceCracker · · Score: 1

      He believed that spicy or sweet foods led to "passions" and "impure thoughts".

      That's odd, I've recently been to India. the spicy food there didn't induce such thoughts. In fact, it took a few away...

      --
      sigo ergo sum
    45. Re:maize?? by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      "centre vs center"

      The American spellings are (1) more logically consistent, (2) more phonetic, and (3) almost 200 years old.

      If you want to continue living in the ancient past, go right ahead. Don't bitch about those who want to move on.

    46. Re: maize?? by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 1

      Enough already!!! Jack killed them.

      --
      -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
    47. Re:maize?? by LordWabbit2 · · Score: 1

      Knock Knock
      Who's there
      9/11
      9/11 Who?
      YOU SAID YOU'D NEVER FORGET!


      Bash Quote

      --
      There are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third is statistics.
    48. Re:maize?? by LordWabbit2 · · Score: 1

      Oops, soz. Meant to reply to your query but got distracted by your sig.

      Yes I went to school in a former British colony, so it's British English and British Law

      In hindsight I think it was more about my teacher being British herself which made me lose points due to American spelling.
      Then again I almost always scored 95+ on essays, she had to find fault somewhere?

      English is easy, you just have to read a lot. :-)

      --
      There are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third is statistics.
    49. Re: maize?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most of Europe actually, to differentiate it from the grains we called corn before colonisation of the Americas.

    50. Re:maize?? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Did you actually click on the signature?

    51. Re: maize?? by Jonner · · Score: 1

      I call your "research" into question since you seem to have come to several conclusions which are completely incorrect. You are correct that two Kelloggs experimented with grains including wheat before trying maize. You are incorrect when you say that "corn flakes" were ever made of anything but maize. In America, "corn" never means wheat or any grain other than maize. The original flakes of wheat were called "granose."

      You are also incorrect when you say that it was a non-Kellogg who added sugar. In fact, corn flakes were originally marketed by Will Keith Kellogg's Battle Creek Toasted Corn Flake Company and contained added sugar from the beginning.

      Will's brother John Harvey Kellogg, who was not part of the business, was not in favor of adding sugar. John's objection to adding sugar had little to do with modern ideas. He thought spicy or sweet foods would increase sexual urges.

    52. Re: maize?? by Jonner · · Score: 1

      After the processing they look quite unlike their source crop.

      Are you saying it's reasonable to expect a grain product to look like the grain when it first came off the plant? By that logic, you should look more askance at bread as you do at corn flakes.

    53. Re:maize?? by tulimulta · · Score: 1

      But what's the origin of that word? One of the Mayan languages?

    54. Re:maize?? by Jonner · · Score: 1

      See also the Scandinavian languages, where "korn" means "grain(s)", and "mais" is yellow and comes on cobs. (Wheat is "hvete".)

      I hate to burst your bubble, but the word for the plant in question, whether spelled "maize," "mais," or "maiz," comes from Spanish, which originally borrowed it from the language of the Caribbean Taíno people. All European languages got some form of that word via Spanish. The words "corn," "korn," and "grain" are related and much older in European tradition. Also, maize comes several colors, including white and purple.

    55. Re: maize?? by lduvall · · Score: 1

      Who uses the term maize? Probably most non-US citizens. A Peuvian friend educated me on my misuse of the phrase "Americans".

    56. Re: maize?? by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      So who who wants to try out the maize maze?

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
    57. Re: maize?? by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      I don't care.

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
    58. Re: maize?? by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      On the other hand we get candy corn. I think we lost.

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
    59. Re:maize?? by TheRealLifeboy · · Score: 1

      and the rest of the world (excluding the US) uses the word maize.

    60. Re:maize?? by LordWabbit2 · · Score: 1

      No I did not (I have now however)
      It's not often that I get to throw in a bash quote.
      Couldn't help myself.

      --
      There are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third is statistics.
  2. seems a bit strange by Trepidity · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Imo, withdrawing papers makes sense mainly if there is indeed, "evidence of fraud or intentional misrepresentation of the data". Faked data doesn't help advance science, and should be purged from the record.

    But merely questionable conclusions are another story. Science is a back-and-forth process: someone publishes a study purporting to show X, and then someone else criticizes their conclusions, re-analyzes their data, attempts to replicate it, etc. Then they publish their own conclusions, purporting to show not-X. Withdrawing the original study in this case doesn't make sense to me, if it was not fraudulent: we don't typically retroactively go into old journals and blank out the articles that have subsequently turned out to be wrong. We just write new articles with better analysis.

    1. Re:seems a bit strange by cranky_chemist · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You are correct.

      Weak science and insufficient sample sizes are matters for the journal's referees to suss out and, if necessary, recommend that the journal not publish the paper. The fact that the paper passed peer review should have the journal re-examining their editorial/peer-review policies.

      Ultimately, the decision to publish (and responsibility for publishing) a paper lies with the journal's editor in chief.

    2. Re:seems a bit strange by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      This only seems strange because you're viewing it through the logic of science, rather than the logic of Capitalism. Under the logic of Capitalism, this outcome is perfectly sensible: this study raises negative PR issues about a multi-billion-dollar industry, ergo is wrong and must be suppressed.

    3. Re:seems a bit strange by flaming+error · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I agree. If Elsevier thought the study was too weak, they shouldn't have published it.

      Asking the authors to retract it makes it look like they just wanted to save face by not doing it themselves. Didn't work.

      The "Nature" post says Elsevier bowed to "scientists' near-universal scorn"; I have no idea what that means. It suggests perhaps that the study was unconvincing. But it's Elsevier's job to screen for that. It's not their job to retroactively delete honest experiments with honest data which have been honestly reproduced and peer-reviewed because of negative letters to the editor.

    4. Re:seems a bit strange by gregor-e · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The case made for withdrawal bases its objections on bad science. The response from the authors was an ad-hominem attack against one of the editors.

    5. Re:seems a bit strange by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 5, Insightful

      One cannot rule out the lesser-sized, but very real industry of trumping up faux problems for the purpose of becoming talking heads.

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      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    6. Re:seems a bit strange by pseudofrog · · Score: 1

      And bad it was. Fractal badness.

      I mean, really bad.

      It shouldn't have been published in the first place, but at least they're admitting their mistake.

    7. Re:seems a bit strange by phantomfive · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Think of it this way, imagine someone did a study, where a single kid was vaccinated and later got autism. The authors of this study drew the conclusion that vaccines cause autism.

      Would you consider that to be poor science? Because that is essentially what happened here, there were obvious problems with the experiment, and the science was badly done. Elsevier was being kind by saying there was no evidence of fraud, because either it was fraud or incompetence that motivated these scientists to publish.

      What they should do is repeat the experiment with a better sample size.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    8. Re:seems a bit strange by flaming+error · · Score: 1

      " a single kid... that is essentially what happened here"

      Really? They "essentially" had a sample size of 1 with no control group?

      "either it was fraud or incompetence that motivated these scientists to publish"

      How do you know their motive?

    9. Re:seems a bit strange by tlhIngan · · Score: 2, Informative

      Think of it this way, imagine someone did a study, where a single kid was vaccinated and later got autism. The authors of this study drew the conclusion that vaccines cause autism.

        Would you consider that to be poor science? Because that is essentially what happened here, there were obvious problems with the experiment, and the science was badly done. Elsevier was being kind by saying there was no evidence of fraud, because either it was fraud or incompetence that motivated these scientists to publish.

        What they should do is repeat the experiment with a better sample size.

      It's poor science, yes, but it's an intriguing data point in which further study is required.

      That's often how research is done - you work with a limited set of resources to see if the hypothesis is even correct. Like say, "vaccines cause autism". Well, you do a study, and find that yes, it does in your study, which warrants further study. Or you find that no, it doesn't, which shuts down the entire line of thinking.

      Starting with a small sample size is perfectly OK, as long as one realizes that further study is required to see if the issue discovered was related to small sample size (e.g., local effect or other thing).

      But no, you don't withdraw published papers for bad science - you release another one proving the original was bad. (Unlike the original Lancet paper, which was discovered to be fraudulent which does demand removal).

      Unless the paper was done to engage in fraud, it should stand. It doesn't matter if the authors are biased, if the sample size is too small, or the paper uses "teh" everywhere. It should be judged as it stands. And if other studies show otherwise, well, they should be published as well, and that's how knowledge is obtained - you have done more studies that discredit an earlier study because of some variable that was uncontrolled.

    10. Re:seems a bit strange by phantomfive · · Score: 0

      Please say something that indicates you understand the point of a statistically significant result, because everything you say suggests you don't.

      If your result isn't statistically significant, and you draw conclusions from it, that isn't science.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    11. Re:seems a bit strange by phantomfive · · Score: 2

      Really? They "essentially" had a sample size of 1 with no control group?

      Yes. The sample sizes weren't large enough to draw any conclusions. At least read the summary, please.

      How do you know their motive?

      I don't, which, as I said, means it's possible they are incompetent.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    12. Re:seems a bit strange by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or you cull people from the population pool based on their web browsing habits. The choice is now.

      Captcha: torture

    13. Re:seems a bit strange by plover · · Score: 5, Informative

      No, it wasn't a sample size of 1 with no control group. But according to one expert, the control group was way too small to derive statistically valid results from. According to UCD researcher Martina Newell–McGloughlin, quoted in the Discovery article (from 2012), here's what they did wrong:

      • They had a control group of 10 or 20 rats in an overall population of 200 rats (Discovery claimed the study should have had a control group that was two or three times the size of the experimental rat population.)
      • The breed of rat is tumor prone (I assume this is a problem because the researchers were pre-supposing the outcome will be tumors.)
      • The rats were two years old (a very old rat for such a study, and at two years old are likely to randomly develop tumors independently.)
      • The rats were allowed to eat unlimited quantities of the food (which is known to lead to tumors even with untainted food.)
      • They found no dose-dependent correlation between the quantity of food consumed and the tumor rate (expected in toxicology studies.)
      • They performed no independent confirmation analysis to determine if the outcome they saw could have been arrived at by chance.

      So yeah, while it's not as bad as the vaccine hoaxers, it was apparently not good research.

      --
      John
    14. Re:seems a bit strange by kartaron · · Score: 2

      http://www.nature.com/news/rat-study-sparks-gm-furore-1.11471 According to this, the conclusions are unobtainable because of 1) small sample size, 2) inappropriate subjects (cancer prone rats), 3) unusually long study on inappropriate subjects (apparently the rats in question suffer higher than 50% cancer rates after a year) 4) inappropriate experiment methods (grown crops should be tested in a way to predict dosages more accurately)... From the nature article: The authors concede that Sprague-Dawley rats may not be the best model for such long-term studies... They admit the study is flawed. Instead of arguing to keep flawed conclusions they should do the study again with better subjects and methods. As it is, this seems like the flawed and misleading studies of saccharine in the 70s which took 20 years for California to withdraw. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&ved=0CGcQFjAJ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fcancerres.aacrjournals.org%2Fcontent%2F33%2F11%2F2768.full.pdf&ei=edSYUseBG4jooASo-YCwCg&usg=AFQjCNH4Bo7SBZqLpEPwJ8kmBTzQ-sxckg&sig2=sdNk2Isqa6aryZapEUdVnQ&bvm=bv.57155469,d.cGU&cad=rja

    15. Re:seems a bit strange by foobar+bazbot · · Score: 2

      "have been honestly reproduced"
      [citation needed]

      (There seems to be a not-uncommon misconception that reproduction of the results by other groups is part of the pre-publication "peer review" -- this is simply not the case. If you're not under that delusion, but think some group has reproduced these results, do share.)

    16. Re:seems a bit strange by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      No, they made a conclusion not supported by the data available. What they *should* have done is expanded the study to include more and more diverse test animals to firm-up the conclusion. They could have retracted their study and re-done it while retaining some dignity.

      What they did instead is throw a hissy-fit and then blame a new editor, which strikes me as extreme paranoia at best.

    17. Re:seems a bit strange by Chalnoth · · Score: 5, Informative

      The study wasn't just unconvincing. It was riddled with serious flaws. The first and clearest complaint: they didn't do any statistical analysis. At all. Plus, some of the GMO and pesticide groups lived noticeably longer than the control group. The highest-dose pesticide or GMO group rarely did the worst, and sometimes did the best among the groups.

      But perhaps the most damning problem of all is that the very design of the study was such that it was guaranteed that they would be able to find something wrong with the GMO/pesticide groups (at least superficially). This is due to the virtue of having in effect 20 different experimental groups of 10 mice each (10 male, 10 female for 10 different dosages of GMO's or pesticides). And they measured dozens of different things over the course of the study. In essence, if the rats in the GMO/pesticide groups hadn't had (superficially) more tumors, they would have had something else wrong with them more often, just due to random chance.

      Whether this execrable excuse of a paper is so terrible due to abject incompetence or outright fraud, it deserves to be retracted. It should never have been published in the first place, but I'm glad the journal has decided to retract it in the end.

    18. Re:seems a bit strange by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      1) small sample size

      The study that "proved" it safe used a smaller size.

      2) inappropriate subjects (cancer prone rats)

      The study that "proved" it safe used the same rats. Indeed their susceptibility is WHY they are used. You don't have to wait so long or experiment on so many rats if they're more susceptible.

      3) unusually long study

      Cancers take time to develop. A longer study is "bad" in the same way as "Use more subjects to test on" is bad.

      I.e. bad for the test subjects, good for the accuracy of the test.

      3)... on inappropriate subjects

      See #2.

      4) inappropriate experiment methods

      Nope, they were different from the methods used to "prove" them safe, but that's scientific.

      So your list is rather ignorant, really.

    19. Re:seems a bit strange by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no evidence of "bad science" IE fraud. There is evidence that more study is needed to lock down conclusions presented, which is common!

    20. Re:seems a bit strange by ceoyoyo · · Score: 2

      You had the most damning problem of all with your first paragraph. If it ain't got stats, it ain't science. The only science you can do (temporarily) without stats is theory, and that's only science if you're going to test it with experiment... using stats.

      If they'd done proper stats it would have taken into account their plethora of experimental groups and ensured that they didn't get any positive results at all.

      I didn't believe you that they hadn't done any stats so I looked up the paper. The only one I could find that fits is Food and Chemical Toxicology 50(11) pp. 4221-31. They DID do stats, but complicated unconventional ones that I find pretty suspicious (as in, a regular analysis didn't show anything so they kept trying until they found something that did). As far as I can tell, the analysis they actually did doesn't have much to do with the conclusion that GMO fed rats got more tumors.

    21. Re:seems a bit strange by Rutulian · · Score: 1

      Um, no, not really.

      You are right, they should do more work on the study and get more data. But any questions about statistical significance and/or experimental design should have been addressed at the peer review stage. And then after that, there is even a final decision by the editor-in-chief to actually publish the study. Bad science or no, the study made it through. It happens all the time. See the arsenic in DNA controversy, or the huge argument over a generalized mechanism for antibiotic killing by reactive oxygen species. I can pick up papers from the 80s where they didn't purify their enzyme well enough and determined the wrong kinetic mechanism. What was the response to all of these? Different groups performed different studies and refuted the original findings. Sure there was a lot of clamor as well, but ultimately it was the experiment that settled the issue.

      Calling for retraction in the absence of any kind of experimental evidence is not the way to handle this. I am not surprised the authors refused. Retraction has a huge stigma associated with it, and if they weren't deliberately fraudulent, they don't deserve it. The scientific community can scorn all they want, but it means nothing without experimental evidence to back it up.

    22. Re:seems a bit strange by ceoyoyo · · Score: 2

      "But no, you don't withdraw published papers for bad science - you release another one proving the original was bad. (Unlike the original Lancet paper, which was discovered to be fraudulent which does demand removal)."

      You absolutely do retract published papers for bad science. You don't retract them for incorrect conclusions, but you DO retract them for things like fraud, misrepresentation, unjustified conclusions, etc. I read the paper. It looks like these guys played some fancy analysis games to get some barely significant results regarding lots of things OTHER than tumors, then concluded that rats fed GMO corn got more tumors. That's bad science. I would never have accepted the original paper. If I were the EIC I'm not sure I would have forced it's retraction, but it's not an unreasonable move.

    23. Re:seems a bit strange by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Calling for retraction in the absence of any kind of experimental evidence is not the way to handle this. I am not surprised the authors refused. Retraction has a huge stigma associated with it, and if they weren't deliberately fraudulent, they don't deserve it. The scientific community can scorn all they want, but it means nothing without experimental evidence to back it up.

      It's more comparable to the cold fusion of Fleischmann and Pons . Not necessarily scientific malpractice, but the poorly done experiments followed by attempts to cash in on the results drew down the wrath of the scientific community (in this case the authors of the study are trying to make money off a book and movie about the study).

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    24. Re:seems a bit strange by sjames · · Score: 1

      Except the group size was 20 and there were several experimental groups and the control group totaling 200 rats.

      That does limit the power of the study significantly, but it hardly renders it useless and it certainly doesn't indicate fraud or incompetence. I notice the detractors haven't repeated the experiment at all, much less with larger sample size.

    25. Re:seems a bit strange by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      That does limit the power of the study significantly, but it hardly renders it useless

      Yes, actually it does. That is what statistical significance means.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    26. Re:seems a bit strange by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "If it ain't got stats, it aint science". I find this type of thought is common amongst people who do not understand the stats they are performing at all.

      Can you answer this question easily and intuitively: If p=.03, what is the probability the result will be replicated?

      I would say instead: "if it can't make a precise prediction it aint science". And yes I do medical research, no I do not consider it science nor the results useful for anything but exploration of ideas that may lead to theories.

    27. Re:seems a bit strange by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, this study is flawed. As is nearly all medical research for pretty much the reasons you mention. 80-90% of it should be retracted.

    28. Re:seems a bit strange by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The null hypothesis was that the control rats and gm-food rats would have exactly equal (mu1=mu2) rates of tumor incidence right?

      What is the chance that the results would be exactly equal even if the food had no effect? Very low or zero.

      Increasing the sample size would make it more likely to get significance.

    29. Re:seems a bit strange by AlphaWolf_HK · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Indeed let's look at it from that perspective: I'm sure you'd be rather suspect of any study that has received most of its funding from Monsanto. Likewise, would you be in favor of retracting any that reached a very shaky conclusion?

      On that same token, would you be suspect of any research study that was funded by any one (or several) companies in the organic lobby? The organic industry is massively profitable, and in fact enjoys much higher profit margins than conventional farming. The organic lobby also dumps all kinds of money into trying to prove that GM crops are harmful, and this particular study was in fact one of those they funded, in addition to this one:

      http://www.marklynas.org/2013/06/gmo-pigs-study-more-junk-science/

      Seralini is himself an anti-GMO activist who is setting out from the get-go to try to kill GMO farming. This is like having a scientist who also happens to be a catholic minister publishing a study proving that Intelligent Design is true and Evolution is false. Of course I'd retract it. And besides, it isn't even just the publisher who wants it retracted, numerous other independent researchers want the same thing because Seralini himself tried to derail the peer review process:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A9ralini_affair

      --
      Careful with names containing L slashdot.org/~AiphaWolf_HK slashdot.org/~AlphaWoif_HK slashdot.org/~AiphaWoif_HK
    30. Re:seems a bit strange by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Their flaw was drawing a conclusion from an exploratory study. Pretty much all medical research shares this flaw.

    31. Re:seems a bit strange by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1, Informative

      Provided the stats are done correctly, the p-value you quote means that if you were to do that identical experiment a large number of times on two groups that were NOT different (two placebo groups, for example), you would expect to see a difference equal to or greater than the one you observed in 3% of the runs. Flipped around, if you take your results and proclaim they show a real effect, you have a 3% chance of being incorrect. I can't tell you what the chance of replication is because you haven't told me the value of beta, or equivalently, the power of your study.

      What is a "precise" prediction? How do I know if I've made a precise prediction or not? If I say 53.183% of people who drink magic water will get better have I made a precise prediction?

      I also do medical research. I'm not sure what kind you do, but mine is most definitely science and is all about testing people's theories, from "such and such a disease is caused by a malfunction in such and such a system" to "this drug will make people better in such and such a way."

    32. Re:seems a bit strange by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please say something that indicates you understand the point of a statistically significant result, because everything you say suggests you don't.

      If your result isn't statistically significant, and you draw conclusions from it, that isn't science.

      So if p>.05 dont draw a conclusion, if p.05 it is ok to conclude something?

      1) Why .05? If not .05 how do you choose your cutoff between significant and not?
      2) Lets say I do a large study comparing two groups with low variability in the results. p.05. Is it wrong to conclude that any effect must be small?

      Sorry your view of science makes no sense.

    33. Re:seems a bit strange by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      " Flipped around, if you take your results and proclaim they show a real effect, you have a 3% chance of being incorrect."

      This is incorrect. The reason is p(data given hypothesis) /= p(hypothesis given data).
      http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_the_transposed_conditional

      A precise prediction would be something like a specific drug will increase blood sugar by a specific amount (within small margin of error) in a specific person under specific conditions. A theory that A increases/decreases B is so weak as to be almost useless on its own. Such research can point the way towards what may be most promising to study further but is not useful for drawing any conclusions like gm food causes cancer.

      Also no two groups of people or animals are ever exactly the same at baseline, so basing statistics on that as the null hypothesis is illogical. The null hypothesis should be your precise prediction (This was the original method until it got flipped around by Pearson without realizing the consequences, first one to notice was Paul Meehl in the 1960s as far as I know). If you can't make a precise prediction then all you can do is report the distribution of results and guess at the causes of the individual variance leading to further studies.

    34. Re:seems a bit strange by mosb1000 · · Score: 1

      You are wrong about sample size. Even though this study had 200 rats, they broke them up into groups of 20 for their experimentation and analysis (each group of 20 was treated separately). 20 is an unacceptably small sample size.

      You can't do a lifetime study on these kind of rats because 50% of them will get cancer before they die. That means that there will be an unacceptably low signal to noise ratio. Suppose your control group is lucky and only 9 of the 20 rats in it get cancer, then another test group with 10 rats getting cancer would show a 11% higher risk of cancer when in reality they had the same risk of cancer and the group as a whole was just a little bit less lucky. This is actually what their results showed, differences to to simple chance.

      Cancer studies use this kind of rat because they are very susceptible to cancer and do not take as long to get it in the presence of a cancer causing agent. If these GMOs caused cancer, you wouldn't need a lifetime study to show it.

    35. Re:seems a bit strange by nbauman · · Score: 1

      You're right. I didn't understand that.

      What they should have said was, "We only guarantee that it's not due to chance 95% of the time. This is one of the 5%. Sometimes a well-designed study turns out to be wrong. Sorry."

    36. Re:seems a bit strange by sjames · · Score: 1

      Did you read the paper in question?

      I would welcome your independent analysis of the data.,/p>

    37. Re:seems a bit strange by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      I would welcome you to look up 'statistically significant' in the dictionary. There's a sad misunderstanding of statistics on this site........

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    38. Re:seems a bit strange by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yar, like cholesterol being related to heart issues - hand selected results.

    39. Re:seems a bit strange by nbauman · · Score: 1

      The study wasn't just unconvincing. It was riddled with serious flaws. The first and clearest complaint: they didn't do any statistical analysis. At all.

      I looked up that paper too. The first thing I looked for was the P values and the confidence intervals. I couldn't find any. Was I missing something?

    40. Re:seems a bit strange by nbauman · · Score: 1

      Can you answer this question easily and intuitively: If p=.03, what is the probability the result will be replicated?

      You're speaking for purposes of illustration, right? The paper itself didn't have any p values.

    41. Re:seems a bit strange by nbauman · · Score: 1

      They didn't calculate the p values and confidence intervals.

      So I don't understand how they can say anything.

    42. Re:seems a bit strange by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good, p values are usually worse than meaningless because people interpret them as something they aren't and use a arbitrary level of significance (http://andrewgelman.com/2013/11/06/marginally-significant/) The paper looks above average to me after scanning it. Some of the charts are confusing. I don't understand why the control group wasn't plotted normally for the kaplan meier plots.

    43. Re:seems a bit strange by s.petry · · Score: 2

      Likewise, would you be in favor of retracting any that reached a very shaky conclusion?

      Except that the conclusion was not shaky. The number and type of rats was what was complained about, not the actual experiment or the results.

      Why not advocate expanding these experiments with more and various test subjects instead of making a false claim? Seems to me like you are pro-GMO. Either that or you didn't see the obvious. Your link to a blog post instead of a reputable source has me thinking it's simply pro-GMO propaganda talking, especially when more than half of the blog post is ad hominem.

      Your minister example is way off the mark, and just a red herring. We can show that GMOs are good and/or bad, it's not just a philosophical question. There are many reports of GMOs being bad outside of the science discussed in TFA. This was the best scientific example for sure. The point is, we should be advocating independent study instead of relying on Monsanto and all of the other biotech companies simply claiming "it's safe".

      I'm not claiming there is not some bad science for anti-GMO, but that does not take away the same bad science we are given which is pro-GMO. Science is supposed to be unbiased an fact driven. Not ad hominem, red herring, poppycock.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    44. Re:seems a bit strange by Trepidity · · Score: 1

      This is the kind of situation where I think the publish/no-publish type binary is suboptimal. If they did legitimately conduct this experiment (not faked data, etc.), but it was just a poor experiment, I'd rather have the results recorded somewhere, and then some meta-data of which studies are actually decent ones whose results you should give significant weight to.

      This one might fall pretty far towards the "unreliable crap experiment" side of the scale, so maybe not a lot is lost by just axing it. But many things fall in a gray area in between. Just axing the few worst experiments doesn't really solve the underlying problem that we should distinguish two things: 1) whether a paper faithfully reports the results of an experiment that was actually conducted as described, with the data competently collected; and 2) whether this experiment actually succeeds in demonstrating any interesting results with statistical validity.

      I do think #2 is very important, but my general bias in favor of transparency leads me to prefer publishing the experiment/protocol/data in any case, as long as they aren't outright faked. Maybe they shouldn't be published in a proper journal as a "result", though. I think what I'd like to see might require a bigger reconfiguration of how the results of scientific experiments are recorded and analyzed.

    45. Re:seems a bit strange by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      phantomfive: I think you do not understand p values and statistical significance or else you would not support its use so strongly. Please think more carefully about what a p-value is and whether it makes sense. It may help to look up the history of statistics and see how E.F. Lindquist accidentally created a hybrid method of statistics that makes no sense which everyone uses.

      This paper is a good place to start realizing how messed up it is:
      http://mres.gmu.edu/pmwiki/uploads/Main/Meehl1967.pdf

    46. Re:seems a bit strange by Chalnoth · · Score: 1

      No statistical analysis is not an antidote to bad statistical analysis. Good statistical analysis is. But then, with the sizes and numbers of their experimental groups, they'd have to have had a very strong, unambiguous effect for there to have been any statistically-significant result. Something along the lines of, "What happens when we give some rats a large dose of hydrogen cyanide?"

      If there is any real health impact of certain GMO foods versus their non-GMO counterparts, it's going to be a very subtle effect that cannot possibly be detected in this sort of study.

    47. Re:seems a bit strange by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      One cannot rule out the lesser-sized, but very real industry of trumping up faux problems for the purpose of becoming talking heads.

      When you say "lesser-sized" you don't really give any indication of the scale of difference.

      The agribusiness industry spends more on public relations than the entire independent research community spends overall. One cannot rule out a very large bias in favor of suppressing anything that might endanger profits. Almost all independent researchers are part of non-profits.

      but very real industry of trumping up faux problems for the purpose of becoming talking heads.

      I find no mention of this "very real" industry you speak of on any of the world's stock exchanges. Are you sure you're not just making it up? I assume you have a list of the "faux problems", and I also assume that it reflects your political opinion more than it does any real "industry".

      How much you think a "talking head" from the scientific community makes, anyway? I'll bet there are executive secretaries at Monsanto that are making 5 times what the highest-paid "talking head" of the type you describe could possibly make.

      Do you think there's more money to be had making up science for Monsanto or for nongmoproject.org?

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    48. Re:seems a bit strange by jmac_the_man · · Score: 1

      This is like having a scientist who also happens to be a catholic minister publishing a study proving that Intelligent Design is true and Evolution is false.

      The Catholic Church's stated explanation is evolution. Scientists employed by Catholic universities all over the world are doing the same kind of biology research into the specifics of how evolution works that the rest of the scientific community is.

    49. Re:seems a bit strange by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even if they did a large study it wouldn't matter because the larger sample means more likely to get significance if there is a difference between groups (no matter what the cause). No two groups of animals are ever exactly the same so the null hypothesis is always false making the entire procedure pointless. The problem is there is no prediction of mortality to disprove but you need one to do stats so mu1=mu2 is chosen even though it is known to be false to begin with.

          I posted this paper below in a comment to phantomfive:
      http://mres.gmu.edu/pmwiki/uploads/Main/Meehl1967.pdf

      What should be done is to describe the results (mortality in this case) then someone else repeats the experiment and checks to see if mortality rates are similar. If not the data for both experiments is unreliable. If so, that indicates we could possibly learn something from this type of experiment. This was pretty much done, so I see no problem. The only problem is that they try to draw conclusions from weak data. This problem is widespread and not limited to this paper.

    50. Re:seems a bit strange by sjames · · Score: 1

      So, you didn't read the paper and have done no analysis? That is, you have no idea if any of the results rose to significance or not?

      One thing I do know about statistics, it doesn't involve forming an opinion and doing no math to back it up.

      The fact is, the results are quite weak. I would need more data and more time than I have to determine how weak. However, at worst the paper suggests that it might be worth repeating the experiment with a larger sample size (and perhaps a less tumor prone rat).

      I don't have enough information about it to say more, and apparently, neither do you.

    51. Re:seems a bit strange by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      However, at worst the paper suggests that it might be worth repeating the experiment with a larger sample size (and perhaps a less tumor prone rat).

      It's been done.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    52. Re:seems a bit strange by kimvette · · Score: 1

      So this is pretty much the same as the saccharine studies which resulted in the "ZOMG saccharine causes cancer!!" scare long ago, and poor saccharine never shed the bad rep even though the conclusions of the faulty study have been disproven time and again.

      Given unlimited access to fat on any one thing, an organism is bound to have bad things happen.

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    53. Re:seems a bit strange by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You all work over Thanksgiving holiday too? Double pay?

    54. Re:seems a bit strange by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Two groups of animals are different 100% of the time.

    55. Re:seems a bit strange by HiThere · · Score: 1

      You overstate your case.

      To me this study doesn't meet the test of being significant, but is does appear to be an indication of something that should be investigated. With a larger population.

      Withdrawing the paper seems a sign that it's actually more valid than I had been considering it. Normally results this weak are merely allowed to fade into insignificance. Unless someone else is inspired to replicate the study and publish either a stronger analysis or a refutation. (Withdrawal by the journal without showing fraud or misconduce is NOT a refutation.)

      P.S.: Elsevier is the company that published a Journal for a drug company where the company controlled all the reviewers of articles and most of the contributors. Under Elsevier's logo. And without admitting who it was that had control. So I'm quite willing to believe that Elsevier was bought off. After all, they have been before.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    56. Re:seems a bit strange by HiThere · · Score: 1

      This wasn't a well designed study, but it hasn't been shown to be wrong. And Elesevier has a history of doing favors for corporate citizens...like publishing a magazine as theirs where all the reviewers worked for the same drug company. So I'm quite skeptical when they claim that they did it for science.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    57. Re:seems a bit strange by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      I find no mention of this "very real" industry you speak of on any of the world's stock exchanges.

      Pedantry isn't nearly as funny as some people think it is. He's referring to the fact that there is an entire portion of literature which is scare industry. This scare industry ranges through TV news, print news, science journals, and other areas. To pretend it doesn't exist is disingenuous.

      Faux problems promoted: global cooling, the population bomb, AGW, GM foods, various food additives like red dye, fracking, cholesterol, saturated/unsaturated fats, sugar, salt, eggs, beef, etc, etc, etc.

      Do you think there's more money to be had making up science for Monsanto or for nongmoproject.org?

      The size of each side's bad or false research base or the amount of money they make is not relevant to whether it's an unethical practice that should be expunged.

    58. Re:seems a bit strange by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      A conclusion drawn from the results of an experiment with too few test subjects to be statistically solid and whose subjects' very genome is likely to introduce bias into said results isn't shaky?

    59. Re:seems a bit strange by Jmc23 · · Score: 1

      Ah you poor fool! What makes you think this has anything to do with science?

      --
      Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
    60. Re:seems a bit strange by Jmc23 · · Score: 2
      Never read any medical experiments have you? Nor the experiment in question right?

      Just admit it, you're just assuming it's on shaky ground because that's what you read and you have no clue about how 'real' research is done.

      --
      Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
    61. Re:seems a bit strange by idunham · · Score: 1

      Likewise, would you be in favor of retracting any that reached a very shaky conclusion?

      Except that the conclusion was not shaky. The number and type of rats was what was complained about, not the actual experiment or the results.

      Number and type of experimental subjects is a part of an experiment.
      And a conclusion is "shaky" if it is not adequately supported by the experiment. Any factors that reduce the statistical confidence in the results should be considered when evaluating whether it's adequately supported by the results.

      If you read the paper, you'll see that there are sizeable differences between doses that do not fit the response patterns of toxicity; if a treatment is toxic, higher doses are more toxic.
      So they didn't have enough numbers to check it.
      While Seralini et al. used the same number as would have been used in conventional tests, their experiment ran about 4-8 times longer (they finished at 2 years with many rats dying before then; standard experiments are 3 months or less). And a much older population is likely to not have the same consistency as a younger population.

      Now, whether a paper should be/have been retracted for shaky conclusions is a different question. And I can see arguments both ways.

      And a third question is how we can actually fund an adequate and unbiased test.
      Make the USDA or FDA do it?
      They're swamped, and aren't likely to have the funding.
      Have them charge a fee?
      Now you just moved the bias into the bureaucracy.
      Hand it over to existing nonprofits?
      No, because they get funding from somewhere and usually have a position one way or the other.
      It might be possible to have something that comes out unbiased if you can get both sides to fund it.
      Maybe a 3-way RR/conventional/organic test could be funded by Monsanto and the folks who like organics.

    62. Re:seems a bit strange by idunham · · Score: 1

      The null hypothesis Seralini et al. used?
      They didn't have one, since they didn't do statistical tests on that.

    63. Re:seems a bit strange by idunham · · Score: 1

      And I think you did not read that paper thoroughly, or have no clue how it applies to biological research as conducted today.

      What Meehl describes is a two-part issue.

      First, there's a problem with using the point null hypothesis (two numbers are equal) instead of a more general null hypothesis (two sub-populations are within natural variation of each other).
      The problem is that the point null is always false in fact, so a sufficiently precise test is guaranteed to prove it false and is thus likely to support a directional theory about half the time.

      The second issue is that of taking support for a statistical hypothesis as support for a larger non-mathematical theory.
      Other theories may well predict the same outcome, so a favorable result does not prove your own theory.
      The two combine to make a scenario where, given precise enough measurements, half the time you will find support for your pet theory.

      Now, if you don't use statistical analysis, you are essentially setting p=.99 and using a point null hypothesis.

      In agricultural and biological research, standard practice is to use the null hypothesis that the two groups are within a certain amount of variation of each other.
      And this is not necessarily false, so problem #1 goes away.
      Problem #2 is a psychological problem you can always run into.
      But ignoring p-values will not solve anything.

    64. Re:seems a bit strange by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And if they had done a statistical test what one would you have advised and what null hypothesis would it use?

    65. Re:seems a bit strange by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In agricultural and biological research, standard practice is to use the null hypothesis that the two groups are within a certain amount of variation of each other.
      And this is not necessarily false, so problem #1 goes away.
      Problem #2 is a psychological problem you can always run into.
      But ignoring p-values will not solve anything.

      Please show me one publication from medical research using a null hypothesis other than mu1=mu2. I have read thousands of papers and never observed this.

      Problem #2 is resolved by setting your null hypothesis as the hypothesis to be disproved as noted long ago by David Hume. This still does not address the problem of underdetermination ("duhem-quine" thesis), but if the theory can predict something unexpected if the theory were false it is reasonable to think there is some validity to it. One average greater than the other never qualifies.

      Now, if you don't use statistical analysis, you are essentially setting p=.99 and using a point null hypothesis.

      This claim makes no sense to me.

    66. Re:seems a bit strange by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Problem #2 is resolved by setting your null hypothesis as the hypothesis to be disproved as noted long ago by David Hume."

      Should read:
        "setting your research hypothesis as the hypothesis to be disproved "

    67. Re:seems a bit strange by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have you ever interacted with the USDA or FDA? Please get yourself in a position to do so in order to prove to yourself that those organizations are worthy of your respect as authorities.

    68. Re:seems a bit strange by nbauman · · Score: 1

      I would love to ask their reviewers how they could approve a paper that didn't give the P value of its numbers.

    69. Re:seems a bit strange by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Pedantry isn't nearly as funny as some people think it is. He's referring to the fact that there is an entire portion of literature which is scare industry. This scare industry ranges through TV news, print news, science journals, and other areas. To pretend it doesn't exist is disingenuous.

      And making stuff up isn't nearly as effective as some people appear to think it is.

      You've described this "industry", but you haven't told me where it is. Who are these scientists who are involved in the "scare industry"? If you're talking about pop media, then it's something else entirely.

      I'm responding to the guy who said that there are all these scientists making big bucks by becoming talking heads for this scare industry. I want to know how many? Who are they? Because we can certainly give examples of scientists making big bucks on the other side, by making up research showing that their sponsors products are as safe as milk.

      The size of each side's bad or false research base or the amount of money they make is not relevant to whether it's an unethical practice that should be expunged.

      Now that's not even close to true. If you're talking about scientists giving up their souls in order to make big money by lying, then the amount of money in the various pots makes all the difference in the world. If you were a crooked scientist, willing to sell your name, would you rather work for the rich guy or the poor guy?

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    70. Re:seems a bit strange by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Like say, "vaccines cause autism". Well, you do a study, and find that yes, it does in your study, which warrants further study. Or you find that no, it doesn't, which shuts down the entire line of thinking.

      If you shoot someone in the head, and they survive, can you draw the conclusion that headshots are perfectly safe, as "shutting down the entire line of thinking" that they aren't would imply? And if someone happens to get a heart attack during a lunar eclipse, can you draw the conclusion that lunar eclipses cause heart attacks?

      "Vaccinate someone and see if they get autism" is a completely worthless "study" since you can't draw any conclusions from it. It's worse than worthless, actually, since people have proven themselves to be hysterical idiots when it comes to making decisions concerning their children; thus your zero-value data could actually end up keeping one from being vaccinated and suffering who knows what horrible ailments.

      So realize your responsibility, and either make a proper study or don't publish at all.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    71. Re: seems a bit strange by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe, but your list of allegedly false problems shows a rather clear political or at least pro corporate/capitalist bias. A complete lack of ethics and trustworthiness on the part of modern business is why even the flawed studies and theories gain traction.

    72. Re:seems a bit strange by Xylantiel · · Score: 1

      It does sound like this shouldn't have made it past the referee, and so should be retracted for that reason. If the paper itself said the results were interesting but statistically inconclusive that would be one thing, but it sounds like it is completely obvlivious to the flaws of the study.

    73. Re:seems a bit strange by s.petry · · Score: 1

      A conclusion drawn from the results of an experiment with too few test subjects to be statistically solid and whose subjects' very genome is likely to introduce bias into said results isn't shaky?

      The breed of rat is what makes absolutely NO difference, and I'm amazed that you lack the ability to come to that conclusion. If there were different breeds used for different groups, yes there would be bias. When it is the same exact breed in the 3 groups (control group, GMO corn group, and GMO + Roundup) it there is NO bias!

      Claiming the breed is the problem is the same thing as complaining that the science is bad because they didn't use rabbits in the testing. Actually it's worse than that, because if you are testing cancer rates from something you don't want cancer resistant breeds to be used in the testing.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    74. Re:seems a bit strange by s.petry · · Score: 1

      I like your third question, and agree that funding is the driver. That said, why not make the agro businesses that make huge profits pay for unbiased testing in order to license the product? Every time something like this is mentioned, some pro-GMO person claims "Well our vitamin A rice".. but they neglect the "Terminating seeds" which reap huge profits for these companies.

      The FDA is swamped, sure. They don't need to be the testing company, they could be the gatekeepers for smaller independent companies to do testing. In other areas, like pharmaceuticals the cost of testing is assumed in the product. The same thing should be done with GMO foods, because the majority of the purposes are not altruistic but profit driven.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    75. Re:seems a bit strange by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is most entertaining how you conflate the massive scales of difference between the lobbying abilities of those two. We have biotech multinationals that are some of the most profitable entities on the planet and have executives that have been revolving through government positions for decades now, with direct and measurable effects from the forces of their legislative shaping; and the "organic lobby" which I can't even find in 20 pages of Googling a single company that lobbies for organic farmers. All I find is a mention of the mysterious "organic lobby".

      I'm sure the organic lobby exists, and is powerful. But Monsanto is literally one of the most powerful entities on this planet, with extralegal powers now thanks to numerous bills they directly and unapologetically forced through Congress. One is definitely orders of magnitude more powerful than the other, and I think you're mixed up on which is which.

    76. Re:seems a bit strange by ravenshrike · · Score: 1

      The study was rejected because it's signal to noise ratio was crap and they didn't use enough rats. I don't know about you, but as someone who occasionally reads science literature, knowing such matters is kind of fucking important as to how much weight I give a particular study..

    77. Re:seems a bit strange by ravenshrike · · Score: 1

      If the groups were large enough, you might have a point. However, the small groups combined with a rat that has an abnormally high cancer rate means the SNR is way to low.

    78. Re:seems a bit strange by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is important to know that it is possible to survive after a headshot and knowing the exact conditions could help to design treatments or helmets or whatever. You are a smug moron. Many smug morons in this thread who don't understand science or stats at all.

    79. Re:seems a bit strange by Cinnamon+Beige · · Score: 1

      Never read any medical experiments have you? Nor the experiment in question right?

      Just admit it, you're just assuming it's on shaky ground because that's what you read and you have no clue about how 'real' research is done.

      I routinely read medical research, and it's not really necessary to have read the paper in question because the main reason for me to read it would be to know how to best set up my experiment to 'prove' my theory...and I already know how to do that.

      In a small population, any individual's impact on the results is greater; this is why it is important to give the alpha used in the statistical analysis. (Using a small alpha reduces influence of sampling error.) It is something to avoid if at all possible within the constraints of ethics and resources. Medical research tends to have to live with small sample sizes, simply because of the ethics of inducing disease on purpose in humans.

      This was an experiment on rats. A large number of rats could have been used, unless this study's purpose was actually more in the lines of what engineering calls a 'proof of concept,' done to test a method and published to lay the groundwork for the large-scale study. ("Hey, look, this works, can we do it bigger?") This is not the case.

      More importantly, a line of rats known for good health certainly ought to have been selected if for some reason they could not use a large population. The effects of breed choice are less important when there are a large number of subjects, because the large number will compensate for sampling error as well. If you are limited to a small sample, the effects of sampling bias upon external validity--the ability to generalize results to the population--become more significant, and can even result in it being scientifically worthless.

      These flaws do not, of course, mean it was intentionally deceptive or misrepresenting anything. It is not necessarily malice to choose a small sample size from a population already prone to the disease you are studying. It is, however, certainly a bad experimental design with significant systemic error if your goal is to honestly test "X causes Y Disease."

    80. Re:seems a bit strange by idunham · · Score: 1

      That said, why not make the agro businesses that make huge profits pay for unbiased testing in order to license the product?

      The problem is that if they fund it, how do you ensure that the "third party" is unbiased?
      And how likely are opponents of GMOs to consider it unbiased? I suspect that even if it did reduce the level of bias, you would hear as many people complaining that it can't be trusted. And perceptions may be as important as facts when it comes to getting the regulations changed.

      ...some pro-GMO person claims "Well our vitamin A rice".. but they neglect the "Terminating seeds" which reap huge profits for these companies.

      There's a couple of things I'd like to point out:
      1: If someone objects to all GMOs, they object to even the most beneficial ones. Vitamin A rice is a reasonable argument against those who want to ban GMOs. It's not a good argument against testing, but I've not seen it used that way myself.
      2: If you are referring to the "terminator" traits where F2 is infertile rather than male-sterile lines, those have not been included in many seeds. In fact, the USDA currently does not list a deregulated corn or soybean terminator trait.
      My understanding is that Monsanto had developed such a trait, which they intended to use to prevent accidental cross-pollination; but when people objected to it, they dropped it.

      Male-sterile is quite different from the "terminator" trait; it prevents production of fertile pollen, so that a hybrid seed breeder does not need to hire people to go through the whole field and remove the male flowers from every plant that's supposed to be a female parent in the cross. It does not influence fertility of seeds.

      But the reason for not saving and replanting seeds is that almost all seed is hybrid. This means that the second generation is likely to give you a level of variability that renders mechanized harvest impractical, as well as having lower productivity. And hand-harvesting corn is not something that pays off.

      The FDA is swamped, sure. They don't need to be the testing company, they could be the gatekeepers for smaller independent companies to do testing. In other areas, like pharmaceuticals the cost of testing is assumed in the product. The same thing should be done with GMO foods, because the majority of the purposes are not altruistic but profit driven.

      I did not mention cost as an issue because I'm well aware that there's quite a bit of testing in development of any crop.
      I interned at Pioneer one summer collecting soil moisture measurements for drought stress trials, and they mentioned the scale of the testing.
      A crop is usually tested for at least five years. Trials runs about $2000 per acre per year for corn, and there are always
      several evaluations (resistance to pests, drought tolerance, nitrogen use efficiency, and so on) and they are replicated at 4-5 sites.

      In pharmaceuticals, you still hear people claiming that there is bias, and once in a while you hear about trials that were tampered with.

    81. Re:seems a bit strange by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Actually, what they did was a bit different.

      Imagine having a study where you have 400 kids. Half are controls and get no vaccine, and half are experimental and get the vaccine.

      However, this isn't just two groups of 200 kids - these are 40 groups of ten kids each. For the first pair of control/experimental groups you check for cancer, for the next one you check for heart damage, for the next one you check for liver damage, and so on.

      So, suppose you get to one group and you find that 3 of the 10 experimental kids have been hit by cars, and none of the control kids were. You run the numbers and it turns out that this has greater than 95% significance so you publish a study demonstrating that vaccines cause kids to be run over by cars.

      The problem with this sort of logic is that you really did 20 separate experiments at once, and you found that one of them reached some conclusion with 95% confidence. Well, 95% confidence means that you only have a 1/20 chance of reaching a conclusion due to chance alone, so it shouldn't be surprising that if you do 20 experiments you find something "significant."

      http://xkcd.com/882/

    82. Re:seems a bit strange by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      And even then, each group wasn't large enough to reach a conclusion with 95% confidence.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    83. Re:seems a bit strange by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      "You overstate your case." If you'll say how you think so, we can discuss it. I'm not really interested in arguing with your opinions without knowing what you base them on.

    84. Re:seems a bit strange by s.petry · · Score: 1

      The problem is that if they fund it, how do you ensure that the "third party" is unbiased?

      I mentioned that the FDA should be the coordinators for the testing, and of course the FDA should be audited by independent agencies. While not perfect, almost everything exists today to do just this. Except for a mandate that GMOs are tested thoroughly. Pipe dream currently, but a legislator could work on it.

      1: If someone objects to all GMOs, they object to even the most beneficial ones. Vitamin A rice is a reasonable argument against those who want to ban GMOs. It's not a good argument against testing, but I've not seen it used that way myself.

      Agree, but this same argument can run the other direction and often does. The same types of appeal to emotion on both ends of the science feed inaction.

      2: If you are referring to the "terminator" traits where F2 is infertile rather than male-sterile lines, those have not been included in many seeds. In fact, the USDA currently does not list a deregulated corn or soybean terminator trait [usda.gov]. My understanding is that Monsanto had developed such a trait, which they intended to use to prevent accidental cross-pollination; but when people objected to it, they dropped it.

      Some of that is simply not true. All you have to do to see where terminator seeds are in production is to follow the law suits Monsanto files against people for IP violations, and follow the complaints to the FDA where Monsanto terminator varieties of seeds have infected farms that have never purchased Monsanto seeds. Both of those have numerous searchable articles and reports. Monsanto is not the only biotech company to search, but the primary one since they have been the most public if not the most ruthless in courts.

      I did not mention cost as an issue because I'm well aware that there's quite a bit of testing in development of any crop. I interned at Pioneer one summer collecting soil moisture measurements for drought stress trials, and they mentioned the scale of the testing. A crop is usually tested for at least five years. Trials runs about $2000 per acre per year for corn, and there are always several evaluations (resistance to pests, drought tolerance, nitrogen use efficiency, and so on) and they are replicated at 4-5 sites.

      What is not normally tested is the impact on humans and animals eating the crops, which is what most anti-GMO people are requesting. What they do test is to be sure that the seeds work as expected in order to make a profit for the company designing the seeds.

      In pharmaceuticals, you still hear people claiming that there is bias, and once in a while you hear about trials that were tampered with.

      Sure you do, but there is enough testing and trials where things do not always hit the public in mass before bad drugs get caught. We can never prevent all bad things from happening, and with the testing and trials for pharmaceuticals that is not a different thought. What the timings do is reduce impact from bad things.

      Comparing that to GMOs is really not a comparison. Most GMOs have been released with almost no animal or human testing in the USA. Other countries have required testing and banned the GMOs from growing based on test results. That fact itself should cause you concern if you are a US citizen.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    85. Re:seems a bit strange by mrclevesque · · Score: 1

      So who is going to do it right ? i.e a longer than 90 day trial with enought rats, of the kind used for longer trials not the kind they used which is common practice for 90 day trials.

    86. Re:seems a bit strange by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Why do you think that is necessary, considering all the other trials that have been done?

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  3. Recent History by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 3, Informative
    --
    When information is power, privacy is freedom.
  4. p-value by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So what was the p-value, using which test?

    1. Re: p-value by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      P values aren't enough - a correct hypothesis test and appropriate power correction are needed as well.

    2. Re: p-value by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      A p-value that isn't "corrected" is a p-value for an experiment you didn't do. The p-value for the experiment you DID do IS enough. Taking only very slight liberties, it is the probability that a positive conclusion (there is a difference) is wrong.

      Of course, if you do the wrong test, your p-value is invalid. Also if you don't "correct" it.

    3. Re: p-value by sjames · · Score: 1

      OK, but what was the p value?

    4. Re: p-value by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I meant to say "calculated" rather than "corrected. To use an example where a p-value isn't enough: abusing parametric statistics on data with violated assumptions. As far as publishing goes confidence intervals are in-vogue at the moment, with effect size gaining in popularity. Not that these are any less vulnerable to incorrectly applied procedures.

    5. Re: p-value by nbauman · · Score: 1

      OK, but what was the p value?

      They didn't give a p value.

      I don't know if you can get the paper free but here it is.
      http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.fct.2012.08.005
      Long term toxicity of a Roundup herbicide and a Roundup-tolerant genetically modied maize

    6. Re: p-value by sjames · · Score: 1

      I actually read it. I just wanted to needle the second AC in the thread for trying to sound authoritative when he/she didn't actually know the ansqwer to the question posed :-)

    7. Re: p-value by nbauman · · Score: 1

      Oh, now I see. Sorry to spoil the joke. :)

    8. Re: p-value by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      That's silly. Knowing the assumed distribution, the mean, and the p-value you can compute a confidence interval, and vice versa. Ditto for an effect size. Both of those are "solutions" proposed by people who a) don't know what the problem is b) don't know what a p-value, confidence interval or effect size is or c) are trying to play off the "but look at how much of my confidence interval DOESN'T overlap zero!" to make insignificant results seem significant.

      Also, most tests aren't overly sensitive to reasonable departures from normality, and a lot of data is normally distributed by the time it's analyzed anyway, thanks to the central limit theorem. A far bigger problem is people just doing the whole thing incorrectly, or drawing unjustified conclusions. The difference of differences fallacy seems to be one of the more popular.

      The number you get out of applying any old test to your data is not a p-value. Of course you need to use the right test. The problem is not p-values, it's people doing analysis who have no idea what they're doing. Of course you need to look at your residuals to make sure there aren't any patterns. Not propose some silly magic bullet solution that's mathematically equivalent to a p-value anyway.

  5. 'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by gstoddart · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Funny how Monsanto isn't required to definitively prove their crap is safe, but everyone else is required to definitely prove that it isn't.

    So basically we've got an evidentiary double-standard where Monsanto et al get to say "perfectly safe until proven otherwise", and we don't get to say "prove it". And then we all get to be the test subjects in the long-term studies.

    And, more importantly, having worked at Monsanto should automatically exclude you from being considered from holding an editorial position like this. You mostly have to assume these guys are going to be paid shills who have already made up their mind that it's safe, and he's basically just demonstrated that Food and Chemical Toxicology isn't interested in objective science.

    --
    Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    1. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's very easy to prove that something is unsafe; you simply show meaningful and reproducible examples of harm caused

      You can't prove that something is safe because you can't say beyond a doubt that something will never ever cause harm in the future. What you *can* do is show multiple studies that were looking for harm and could not meaningfully find any.

      What we know about GMOs is that there are no known examples of harm caused by them that can be reproduced by scientific peers.

    2. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I disagree with the retraction of this study, since there is no concrete evidence of fraud, but I 100% agree with the criticisms of the study. The study is deeply flawed; did you read any of the criticisms of the paper that the editor and the scientific community raised?

    3. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by khallow · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Funny how Monsanto isn't required to definitively prove their crap is safe, but everyone else is required to definitely prove that it isn't.

      It's not that way for either party and shouldn't be ("definitively prove" is a ludicrously high threshold). This was apparently half-assed research which didn't "prove" anything.

    4. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by khallow · · Score: 2

      And, more importantly, having worked at Monsanto should automatically exclude you from being considered from holding an editorial position like this. You mostly have to assume these guys are going to be paid shills who have already made up their mind that it's safe, and he's basically just demonstrated that Food and Chemical Toxicology isn't interested in objective science.

      Ignoring that working for Monsanto is one avenue to getting the sort of experience in the field that can make one a good editor, everyone has some sort of conflict of interest. I guess we'll just have to do without editors, huh?

    5. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Like it or not, even big companies are innocent until proven guilty. Pending FDA approval, anyway.

      In this case it looks like the researchers were out for blood and let their dislike for Monsanto get in the way of doing the science properly—not only did they use cancer-prone rats like it says in the summary, but they didn't do enough replicates to determine if the results were actually statistically significant: the control group definitely got fewer tumours, but given the unreliability of the rat breed's tumour-forming rate it's hard to say that it wasn't just a coincidence. (And using a cancer-prone rat isn't exactly realistic to begin with; tumours grow faster whenever they get cheap and easy nutrients.)

      The paper was under close scrutiny immediately when it was published, and not just from Elsevier or Monsanto.

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
    6. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by stenvar · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Funny how Monsanto isn't required to definitively prove their crap is safe, but everyone else is required to definitely prove that it isn't.

      That's because it is reasonable to assume that it is safe based on what we know about biology. Furthermore, there are no real-world indications that it is not. At this point, if you want to claim it's unsafe, you better have some strong data to back it up.

      he's basically just demonstrated that Food and Chemical Toxicology isn't interested in objective science.

      According to objective science, every widely used organism produced by genetic manipulation is safe to consume.

    7. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Like it or not, even big companies are innocent until proven guilty. Pending FDA approval, anyway.

      Except the FDA, like every other US government department, is usually victim to extensive lobbying efforts to ensure the burden of proof is put on someone else, and that no actual regulations which have any impact are ever enacted.

      Regulatory capture is alive and well, and mostly only serves the interests of big business.

    8. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by femtobyte · · Score: 0

      You seem to be swallowing the PR spin that intentionally confuses "study is not reproducible" with "no one has bothered to try reproducing the study." The paper is not being retracted because some better-run experiment with a larger sample size came along and showed, with improved statistical confidence, that this small-sample study's results were a statistical fluke. You say "there are no known examples of harm" --- but that's because nearly no one has looked; and, when they do (as in this case), they're automatically dismissed by Monsanto's FUD machine. This somewhat weak study is an extremely rare example of someone trying at all --- limited in statistical size because it's really hard to get funding to try studying anything against Big Ag's corporate profit interests.

    9. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by Kohath · · Score: 2

      Yeah! It's time to get this hunt started. We need to start asking the most important scientific question of all:

      Does Monsanto weigh the same as a duck?

    10. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by femtobyte · · Score: 0

      What does working in a profit-focused megacorporate environment have to do with "experience to make one a good editor"? The institutional structures and culture within Monsanto have zilch to do with fostering scientific integrity and objectivity as a first priority; nor with journalistic editorial work.

    11. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by gstoddart · · Score: 1, Funny

      not only did they use cancer-prone rats like it says in the summary

      Well, if rats are unsuitable test subjects, might I suggest lawyers, politicians, telemarketers and door-to-door sales people?

      Cram a couple of pounds of GMO crap down their gullet every day and see what happens. And, Fox could syndicate it and make a fortune. Think of the boost to the economy.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    12. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by Kohath · · Score: 5, Funny

      GMOs produce toxins. Those toxins have already been shown to stay in the human body almost indefinitely, compromising the human immune system. And, in perfect correlation to the spread of GMOs, all sorts of illnesses are growing and a rapid rate.

      They turned me into a newt!

      This is why they refuse to do any long-term studies.

      I got better.

    13. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by phantomfive · · Score: 2

      So basically we've got an evidentiary double-standard where Monsanto et al get to say "perfectly safe until proven otherwise"

      I don't want to call you ignorant, but you should actually look at the tests that are done with GMO crops before they are allowed to be eaten, even by the researchers who made them, and then before they are allowed to be sold. Monsanto actually is required to prove they are safe (within a margin of error, which is all you can do in science). You should look up on Wikipedia and understand the tests that are done before posting again.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    14. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by iluvcapra · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You say "there are no known examples of harm" --- but that's because nearly no one has looked

      Hardly no one looks for examples of harm from non-GMO corn either. All corn, really all agricultural products, are heavily genetically engineered, the difference is some is engineered with selective breeding and hybridization, and the other by resequencing. The only reason we pay attention to the latter is there's a contingent of motivated believers who think that "natural" food contains Maggi Health Fairies, and that Big Science and Corporations kill the fairies by Playing God(!!1!@1!). it's really hard to get funding to try studying anything against Big Ag's corporate profit interests

      "It's impossible to disprove Darwinism, because the Darwin lobby controls all granting in the life sciences!" "It's impossible to disprove general relativity, because the government suppresses that truth!"

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
    15. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by Baloroth · · Score: 1

      Funny how Monsanto isn't required to definitively prove their crap is safe, but everyone else is required to definitely prove that it isn't.

      So basically we've got an evidentiary double-standard where Monsanto et al get to say "perfectly safe until proven otherwise", and we don't get to say "prove it". And then we all get to be the test subjects in the long-term studies.

      Except they do have to prove it's safe, to within a certain margin. GM foods generally have a substantially similar composition and nutritional content as existing foods, which means if that food is safe so is the derived food. Believe it or not, but the FDA and equivalent organizations do have regulations for GM foods to ensure they're safe. Of course you can't definitely prove it's safe: that's an impossible burden of proof, because you can't prove anything definitively, in science.

      --
      "None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license." --John Milton
    16. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Uh, no, the paper was about GMO corn causing tumors in rats - are you high on weed or something?

      Anyway, there is a broad scientific consensus about the safety of GMOs. There are over 600 studies - you can start here: http://www.biofortified.org/genera/studies-for-genera/. Do you want to claim that Monsanto has the entire scientific community locked up in their sphere of influence? That's about as sensible as claiming that human-caused global warming proponents in academia are all part of some liberal conspiracy to implement communism.

      Re: "GMOs produce toxins" the only toxins that are being produced are GMOs that have been modified to produce the Bt toxin which is COMPLETELY harmless to humans. The mechanism of action of the Bt pesticide only affects insects - the digestive system of the human is completely unaffected by it. Also, you may not be aware, but Bt is available as a spray and is approved for use even on USDA Organic crops. So even if you're eating organic food, there is a very good chance you're consuming the Bt pesticide.

      If you think Bt is unsafe to humans then PROVE IT. Put up or shut up.

    17. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by femtobyte · · Score: 2

      Recall, in this particular case, the specific genetic modification in question: glyphosate resistance, allowing massive quantities of glyphosate herbicide to be dumped on everything. This isn't engineering to make bigger, sweeter kernels or boost crop density. Glyphosate kills the heck out of weeds because it's highly biologically active, designed to interfere with metabolic processes --- the kind of thing you might have big a-priori safety concerns about, above and beyond genetic modification to speed along selective breeding processes for traits not directly related to dumping massive amounts of toxins onto food products. So, yes, humans have been doing "genetic engineering" for a long time, but less so for capabilities to saturate fields with weird shit that kills all the other plants.

    18. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by __aaqvdr516 · · Score: 1

      There's actually a list of GRAS (Generally Recognized as Safe) at the FDA Website. To my knowledge, GM foods fall under this listing.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GRAS
      http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/fcn/fcnNavigation.cfm?rpt=grasListing

      and here's a short listing for GM items listed under GRAS.
      http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/fcn/fcnNavigation.cfm?filter=genetically+modified&sortColumn=&rpt=grasListing

    19. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      These "scientists" are on someone's payroll. Follow the money.
      This is not science or scientists in the original sense of the words.

    20. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funny how you will never back your own words up.

      Of course there will be evidence, when the harm is already done. Having enough data to prove beyond all doubt may take 20-30 years. Is this objective? Not remotely.

    21. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by phantomfive · · Score: 3, Insightful

      the kind of thing you might have big a-priori safety concerns about, above and beyond genetic modification to speed along selective breeding processes for traits not directly related to dumping massive amounts of toxins onto food products. So, yes, humans have been doing "genetic engineering" for a long time, but less so for capabilities to saturate fields with weird shit that kills all the other plants.

      Interestingly, they've been dumping actual shit on plants for a long time before that, which is probably more dangerous than the glyphosate that you are (for some unknown reason) afraid of.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    22. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      On what grounds do you base that? Aside from smelling bad, literal shit doesn't seem to cause mass biological devastation. In fact, ecosystems that get a lot of shit tend to be absolutely thriving --- that's why they dump it on plants. Harmful secondary effects of shit are generally due to it being so good for life --- e.g. rapid algal blooms in runoff water, growing so fast that they exhaust other resources (e.g. dissolved oxygen). If I was forced to choose between chugging 100ml of shit or 100ml of glyphosate, I'd choose the shit every time --- hella nasty, but far, far less likely to kill me.

    23. Re: 'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by dondelelcaro · · Score: 1

      Of course we're on someone's payroll. We have to eat, after all. The question is whose payroll we are on. All reputable journals require scientists to indicate who supported their research and any conflicts of interest they might have.

      --
      http://www.donarmstrong.com
    24. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Posted by an AC who is obviously on the payroll of an anti-GMO environmental terrorist organization.

    25. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by phantomfive · · Score: 3, Informative

      On what grounds do you base that?

      Go eat it. See what e coli does to you. These are the kind of irrationalities ant-GMO fanatics get into (I'm not saying you are a fanatic, just that fanatics get caught in these irrationalities).

      Using cow manure has killed people in the past, and it will continue to kill people in the future if it is used. When glyphosate is used on food, it is safe by the time it gets to the store.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    26. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by Prune · · Score: 1

      > What you *can* do is show multiple studies that were looking for harm and could not meaningfully find any.

      Actually, no, you can't. As Popper showed 50 years ago, it is wrong to consider corroboration as a reason, a justification for believing in a theory or as an argument in favor of a theory to convince someone who objects to it.

      See, for example,
      Karl Popper (1963). Conjectures and Refutations. p.53. ISBN0-06-131376-9.
      "Induction, i.e. inference based on many observations, is a myth. It is neither a psychological fact, nor a fact of ordinary life, nor one of scientific procedure."

      Though Popper's critical rationalism may seem extreme in its rejection of induction and the embrace of only falsifiability and nothing else, all critical attacks against it have failed over the decades, including posthumously to Popper, and despite near-heroic attempts by Elby etc.

      --
      "Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason."
    27. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And you'd be wrong. You'd die from the bacteria in shit long before you died of glyphosate poisoning. Have you ever had a science class?

    28. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by dszd0g · · Score: 2

      What we know about GMOs is that there are no known examples of harm caused by them that can be reproduced by scientific peers.

      You mean like Monsanto's Newleaf Potatoes?

      There was first the Dr. Arpad Pusztai study that showed it caused "damage to the intestines and immune systems of rats fed the genetically modified potatoes."
      Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%81rp%C3%A1d_Pusztai

      Industry and the Royal Society of Medicine declared Dr. Arpad's study flawed and his study was considered discredited.

      Then it turns out the Russian Academy of Medical Sciences had conducted a similar study that found similar results. Except this study had been suppressed by Monsanto for 8 years.

      Major US food companies, like McDonald's and Frito-Lay, used Newleaf Potatoes for a few years before consumers complained about GMO "frankenfries."

      It would be one thing if GMOs were being developed to taste better, grow larger, etc. However, most GMOs that are being developed either seem to be for either producing their own pesticides or to allow more pesticides to be used on them. It's not complex logic that putting new and more poisons on our food could cause us harm. Especially, when so many studies are coming out linking various diseases to pesticide use. Slashdot just recently an article linking Parkinson's to pesticide (http://slashdot.org/story/13/11/26/1956243/how-heroin-addicts-helped-scientists-link-pesticides-and-parkinsons). Pesticides have been linked to being a cause of Autism (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3404662/) and other diseases.

      --
      This message is encrypted with Quad ROT-13 to protect the author's copyright under the DMCA.
    29. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      100ml of glyphosate isn't likely to kill you? Oh, really? Why not ask the Indian farmers who chug the stuff to commit suicide because Monsanto has made the agricultural economy brutally horrible? Oh right, you can't, because they're dead.

      A little info for you (from Wikipedia on glyphosate):

      Deliberate ingestion of Roundup in quantities ranging from 85 to 200 ml has resulted in death within hours of ingestion, although it has also been ingested in quantities as large as 500 ml with only mild or moderate symptoms.[83] There is a reasonable correlation between the amount of Roundup ingested and the likelihood of serious systemic sequelae or death. Ingestion of >85 ml of the concentrated formulation is likely to cause significant toxicity in adults. Corrosive effects – mouth, throat and epigastric pain and dysphagia – are common. Renal and hepatic impairment are also frequent and usually reflect reduced organ perfusion. Respiratory distress, impaired consciousness, pulmonary edema, infiltration on chest x-ray, shock, arrythmias, renal failure requiring haemodialysis, metabolic acidosis, and hyperkalaemia may occur in severe cases. Bradycardia and ventricular arrhythmias often present prior to death.

      Not to downplay the risks of pathogens in shit. However, people have been wallowing around in shit of all kinds for a long time --- there are quite significant associated risks, but it's far from an acute poisoning death sentence.

    30. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      And, they generally use sample sizes similar to the numbers used in this study under question --- the 200 rats studied was a moderately "ordinary" number by industry standards. However, only when the results are unfavorable to Monsanto does this number become grossly inadequate to effectively evaluate the safety impacts of the product; otherwise, it's "good enough within the margin of error."

      Yes, this study has low statistical impact from marginal statistics; just like most of the studies proving GMO crops are safe.

    31. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by phantomfive · · Score: 2

      And, they generally use sample sizes similar to the numbers used in this study under question --- the 200 rats studied was a moderately "ordinary" number by industry standards.

      I don't know where you are getting your numbers. Nature reports 20 total rats were used. The Nature article illustrates a number of other problems with the study, please at least become aware of them before further commenting.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    32. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      I'm getting my numbers from the article. The total study included 200 rats, divided into smaller subgroups. 20 refers to one of the subgroups, which is common practice for similar studies. Yes, such numbers aren't great for high-statistical-confidence results; but the conclusion should be "more expanded study is needed" rather than "SHUT UP SHUT UP!" whenever an experiment contradicts Monsanto's agenda. Have you read the articles at all, and compared them to similar studies that "prove" GM foods are safe? Or, are you content to make up your own facts because Monsanto PR couldn't be wrong?

    33. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by khallow · · Score: 1

      What does working in a profit-focused megacorporate environment have to do with "experience to make one a good editor"?

      He actually worked for a time at a place that turns scientific discoveries into things that benefit humanity. Excluding that group means you're excluding one of the more productive and useful areas of science.

      And you might not have noticed this, but a lot of places have figured out how to handle conflicts of interest without firing all their productive staff. An editor of a scientific journal is not notably different than an accountant or a journalist, for example.

    34. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      You're right. Most of them are on your payroll. They're publicly funded.

      You're also right, it's not "science" in the original sense, when most scientists were funded privately by wealthy patrons.

    35. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Yes, such numbers aren't great for high-statistical-confidence results; but the conclusion should be "more expanded study is needed" rather than "SHUT UP SHUT UP!" whenever an experiment contradicts Monsanto's agenda.

      You may be feeling people say that to you a lot, but it's because you are unscientific. Look at the Nature report (linked to earlier), it clearly explains why it was such a bad study. Or do you think Nature is controlled by Monsanto?

      If you think that, you would make me smile.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    36. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by stenvar · · Score: 1

      I'm not referring to GRAS. GRAS is stuff that we believe is safe because it has been in common use for a long time without problems. Some GM foods are starting to fall in this category. But GRAS is not a scientific standard.

      I'm saying that, from a biological point of view, there is no reason or evidence to believe that GM foods are intrinsically unsafe. The only way anybody knows to produce harmful GM organisms is to deliberately engineer them to be harmful. That means GMOs are generally presumed to be safe if they are constructed from safe components. (Of course, just to be sure, we still test them anyway, since nature does sometimes surprise us.)

    37. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I wouldn't go so far as to assume that the FDA is completely overrun. A little under 50% of drugs fail FDA approval on their first application. FDA rejection is costly, and companies have been increasingly been aggressive about doing their own testing first in order to make sure that they don't languish forever in a nightmarish backlog like the one that the USPTO suffers from. I used to know someone who had exactly the sort of near-executive-level pharmaceutical responsibility; as far as I could tell, a lot of the collaboration between FDA people and companies is actually about trying to expedite testing and safety.

      On top of that, you have competitive pressures. Nothing is better for a company if they can discover that their competitors have cheated regulations or produced an unsafe product; the battlefield is aggressive and collaborations usually end in backstabbing. If you can produce evidence that another company lied to the FDA or that their products pose a health risk, it can potentially destroy that company. This is one case where a competitive market can be a positive force if the rules are set up right.

      That all being said, the FDA does have corruption issues. The Wikipedia article on on regulatory capture lists some much more perverse cases, though, like how the agency responsible for cleaning up after oil spills was renamed and then restructured into oblivion in the days following the Deepwater Horizon spill.

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
    38. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bullshit AC poster claims Monsanto products "cause no harm" - even in mice with tumors caused by that directly...

    39. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 1

      It's important to not over-generalize when talking about genetically-modified foods. Monsanto uses a particularly unsafe technique to do of its lot of engineering where they simply bombard plants with mutagens until they get what they want; the normal strategy that comes to mind (splicing genes selectively) has a very low chance of causing human health problems. By contrast, mutagenic treatment just Fucks Shit Up indiscriminately.

      Also, you're more than likely already a guinea pig, so how would you do controls?

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
    40. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by femtobyte · · Score: 2

      Note, the "Nature report" isn't itself one of Nature's peer-reviewed articles --- it's a news commentary piece, passing along the views of lobbyists and industry-captured governmental bodies (also staffed with former Monsanto officials). The scientists responsible for peer reviewing the article, when it was initially published, and then again under renewed pressure from industry lobbying groups, found nothing scientifically wrong with the study. Statistically weak results do not invalidate science --- they simply require appropriate interpretation (e.g. that this study doesn't definitively prove the GMO products cause large cancer rates, but does lend support to such effects existing), and provide guidance for where to take a deeper look.

      Do I think Nature is entirely controlled by Monsanto? Not the parts responsible for selecting, peer reviewing, and publishing scientific research. But, could Monsanto's gigantic PR/lobbying effort (which is way better funded than industry-independent scientific researchers) pressure an editorial fluff hit piece outside regular scientific channels? Pretty sure they could, and just did.

    41. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Um, Popper was a smart guy, but he's not an oracle of truth. Also, it's easy to quote him out of context to support an argument he didn't actually make.

      It is most certainly possible (also advisable, and one of the basic tenants of science) to look at multiple studies to lend greater support to a particular hypothesis. In it's simplest form it's called "replication." It's also known as "meta-analysis" or "meta-studies," which can be fairly simple or can be fully quantitative and very rigorous.

      Popper isn't exactly wrong, but he's talking about a particular type of philosophical argument. The upshot is that science (nor anything else) can ever "prove" anything useful. But it CAN provide probabilistic knowledge.

      An experiment (i.e. an observation) can absolutely show that something doesn't cause significant harm (defined however you like) to such and such confidence. A proper meta-analysis of multiple studies can increase the confidence, decrease the threshold for the possible amount of harm or both.

      Unless of course you're a follower of Hume and won't assume that past experience provides information about the future. In that case you might as well find a nice hole to squat in and smoke up.

    42. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Well, that is an ad hominem, but your hero, the one who made the study, also created a book and movie about it at the same time.

      His entire purpose for doing the study was to sell more copies of the movie and book. He is preying on the weakness of people like you, who are afraid, so deathly afraid, and just need to have tears wiped from their eyes. So buy his book, he needs money.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    43. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      Yes, there is tomfoolery going on *outside* the peer-reviewed scientific literature. I don't disagree that the scientist doing the research is making propagandistic statements to the media. Wild claims of the extreme dangers of GMOs are fully unfounded --- as are wild claims of the absolute, unquestionable safety of GMOs pushed by Monsanto PR. The solution of such problems is not to let the politicized, PR-driven agendas intrude on the scientific side of GMO studies. Where scientific research is conducted, and passes peer review and all scrutiny related to scientific integrity, it shouldn't be forcibly retracted because the results might be exploited for nonscientific propaganda.

      You're accusing me of being "nonscientific," yet you're allowing PR spin presented in the court of public opinion (editorial pieces and industry lobbying groups' statements) to dictate your evaluation of the scientific content of the research. A scientific response to the marginal statistical significance of such a study would be to carry out more comprehensive experiments to better resolve the factors involved --- this is how science is supposed to work. Suppressing the work because ex-Monsanto-employees high in journal hierarchies are worried that mindless propaganda based on this work will challenge the mindless propaganda that their retirement plan stocks depend on is not how science is supposed to work.

    44. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by Cyberax · · Score: 2

      Glyphosate itself is harmless, the problem is in surfactants - they are much more dangerous. It's like drinking concentrated detergent (which is also lethal at about 200ml dose).

    45. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by Cyberax · · Score: 1

      Except that this study has been replicated. With the null result, as expected.

    46. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      I showed specific problems with the study.

      There is nothing that can be shown that would cause you to disagree with your preconceived biases. Even though there are other, better performed peer reviewed studies that show this particular maize is safe, you still prefer the study that is flawed, because it matches what you want to believe.

      If believe only what you want to, I cannot help you.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    47. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by hibiki_r · · Score: 1

      The studies looking for harm are casting too wide a net, and the people that are absolutely opposed to GMOs are casting too wide a net.

      It'd not be impossible to create a single strain of corn that is far worse for your health than the one you bought on the market 20 years ago. I find it unlikely, because you'd need to create major chemical differences in corn seeds themselves, but still, possible. If you want to go against GMOs, then look for one family of hybrid corn that has said problem, and then say the testing was insufficient, and stick an extra X years of testing to the current trials to make sure something is safe. You get a big blow vs GMOs, and at least you actually prove something.

      Instead, what we get is people complaining about GMOs in general, which is like hating everything that has been built using a wrench. And at that point it's not dealing with science, but superstition. You'd be far better off arguing against other parts of agribusiness, like patents, or the kind of contracts that are required to plant anything by a big company. But arguing against the tool that makes the science possible? that's very silly.

    48. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      I don't "prefer" this study to others, and realize that this maize is "safe" according to alternate measurements probing different effects (such as being short-term rather than lifetime-accumulation studies). Where is the apples-to-apples comparison that supersedes this study?

      The "specific problems" with the study --- generally, low signal-to-noise ratio due to high background mortality rates of the rats being studied --- are not "scientifically fatal" making the paper retraction-worthy. They limit the statistical impact of the study --- that is what it is. In no other scientific field would you throw out all experiments that lie in the margins between "strong statistical disproof of effect" and "strong statistical proof of effect". There may be results that lie in-between; and, when those results raise concerns, you follow up on them with more in-depth study rather than delete them.

      In fact, where are the numerous other studies showing negative impacts from GMO products with >99% certainty? Out of hundreds of studies performed, there ought to be a several demonstrating statistically significant results by pure chance --- unless there is a systematic bias in the system that suppresses any such results. In a scientifically healthy field of study, there should regularly be anomalous findings that encourage independent follow-up study. That this experiment stands out for finding (statistically weak) evidence for GMO crops is itself damning evidence of systematic corruption of results (a common result with large monetary outcomes riding on publications).

      If you think such problems can't occur, then you are severely ignorant of past history. Consider the decades over which the Tobacco industry suppressed their own internal research on the clear addictive and carcinogenic effects of smoking, in order to publicly push the blatant murderous lie that links between smoking and cancer were scientifically unfounded. Why do you think this won't happen again, given how profitably it's worked in the past?

    49. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Why do you ignore the profit motive of the scientists who do studies that you agree with? Because of a horrible case of confirmation bias, that's why.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    50. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      Who says I do? I'm not the one saying to rush off and proclaim GMOs as deadly unsafe carcinogens. I'm recommending that the results of studies showing potential harmful effects be independently followed up with more research to determine whether any effect is there. I will take the profit motive into consideration. But why your double standard, simultaneously jumping on the profit motive of this one guy while assuming profit motive --- on the side with tremendously greater profits involved --- isn't an issue worth worrying about?

      I'm willing to question the profit motives of both sides --- and insist on verification within the scientific process to resolve outstanding issues, rather than decisions handed down from industry insiders. Are you, or do you think that bigger profits have less corrupting effect than smaller ones?

    51. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wealthy patron and crowdsourced science may be less biased than government funded.

    52. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      I'm willing to question the profit motives of both sides --- and insist on verification within the scientific process to resolve outstanding issues,

      If you are willing to truly look at scientific issues, then you will have no problem understanding why this is a crap study.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    53. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      "Harmless" is a bit of a stretch. The exact acute LD50 dosage isn't known. The EPA classifies it as "Category III toxicity," with Category IV being the lowest --- indicating an LD50 in the 0.5-5 g/kg range, which is not inconsistent with fatalities from a 100ml dose. However, the additives certainly don't help. Since they are always included in the stuff that Monsanto's products encourage immense widespread dumping of, it's probably most useful to generally consider glyphosate plus other stuff in RoundUp together.

    54. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      OK, what scientific issues, which somehow slipped by the initial peer review and subsequent close scrutiny for scientific error? There are certainly ways one could have constructed a more statistically sensitive experiment; some poor choices in experimental design were made. However, that doesn't itself invalidate the findings in any way; it only makes them less statistically precise, in a manner transparently presented in the paper. Selection of rats with a high baseline tumor rate harms signal-to-noise, but that doesn't mean that finding even more tumors on a Roundup-Ready diet or chronic glyphosate exposure is irrelevant --- if these products exacerbate pre-existing inclinations to cancer, that would be a health effect worth looking into.

      The study wasn't a brilliant example of experimental design; better choices could have been made for more robust results. But the potential ability to perform a better experiment does not make the results any less trustworthy than what they are. Given the lack of other apples-to-apples comparable experiments in the literature of longer-term exposure in rats, a weak experiment still adds more to scientific knowledge than no experiment covering this range. Where are the "scientific issues" that would require retraction, rather than simply suitably cautious interpretation of results, which should be done for every paper? "Not good enough to be worth much notice" is not a standard typically applied to forced retractions, which are typically reserved for outright fraud or clearly wrong results, for which zero evidence has been presented by the parties mandating retraction.

    55. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      OK, what scientific issues, which somehow slipped by the initial peer review and subsequent close scrutiny for scientific error?

      You seem to have a high amount of faith in peer review. I can only conclude this means you've never actually done peer review, and don't have much experience with it in general.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    56. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      I'll retain pseudonymity and spare you my publications list in high-impact-factor peer-reviewed journals; but, I can tell you that I've seen the process. There are certainly drawbacks, and room for improvements. However, "let the former Monsanto employees high in the journal hierarchy make decisions instead" is not an improvement. The peer review system has its flaws, but is the best system we have right now for checking scientific integrity for publication. Where are the scientific objections to this work --- that you keep changing the subject around whenever I ask for specific examples --- that demonstrate failure of the peer review process, besides industry lobbying groups shouting that peer review has failed?

    57. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Where are the scientific objections to this work

      Already linked to

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    58. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "tremendously greater profits involved"

      Nope. None of the legitimate industries are anywhere close to being as profitable as the woo merchants. If you want to make a lot of money selling pills don't found a pharmaceutical company, sell dubious nonsense you read about on a forum as a "supplement" through health food stores. The people doing that are FILTHY RICH. Want to get rich down at the farm? Don't sell GM grain, you'll barely make your mortgage payments, sell "heritage" grains that are nutritionally poor but get a huge markup from dimwit hipsters who think McDonalds is poisonous.

      The reason to go into a legitimate industry is because you can sleep at night knowing you did a good job. If you can sleep just fine after selling worthless crap at $10 per bottle to gullible idiots then that's the path for you.

    59. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      Which I read, and noted that this is an editorial hit piece focusing on directly quoting PR from industry groups rather than making substantive scientific criticisms. If you can't tell the difference between an editorial article and actual scientific analysis, then you're hopelessly unqualified to discuss the scientific merits of research. There may have been some substantive criticism in there that I missed --- can you point one that stands out to me? Again, note that "this experiment could have been done better" is not equivalent to "the results are wrong"; nor is limited statistical certainty. The paper author's "extracurricular" activities in hyping up the results for the media do not invalidate the results themselves.

      Where are the "retraction-worthy" scientific criticisms, rather than "the paper is sub-optimal and I could have done better"? What makes this work worthy of censoring from the scientific literature, rather than simply ignoring once improved studies come along?

    60. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      Back up your crap with numbers, not stereotypes, or bugger off.

      Yes, individual farmers can make higher profit margins by not giving all their money to Monsanto to purchase seeds / pesticides / herbicides. However, the total market share of organic products is small --- so, in industry aggregate, Monsanto and Pals make loads more money from smaller margins on larger sales.

      From an Organic trade industry association hyping how big the organic industry is,
      Total U.S. organic sales, including food and non-food products, were $28.682 billion in 2010
      and represented ~4% of total food and beverage sales in 2010.

      The other 96% percent of sales dollars go through the traditional Big Ag chain. From Monsanto's 2010 report, Monsanto's net sales were $10.5B, and ADM reported $68B in net sales --- so, just between these two corporations alone --- ~2.7x the entire organic industry's sales. And there are many others in the chain, making up the 96% of sales not going to organic produce.

    61. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      The conclusion isn't supported by the evidence, and it shouldn't have been passed peer review at all. Whether it is retracted or not matters little, the science is bad either way.

      Why was the paper retracted? Because the authors are trying to use it for financial gain, creating a book and a movie about it. You can see parallels with this situation to the cold-fusion situation. If the authors in either situation had merely published then moved on to more science, there would have been little furor.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    62. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      Would you recommend retraction of all other papers used for subsequent financial gain? For example, every paper published by industry scientists, and subsequently cited by industry lobbyists to justify regulatory policy decisions, on which billions of dollars in sales hinge? You do also realize that lots of other scientists have written popular-market books on their subjects, without being censured from the scientific community? Ever been inside a bookstore and browsed the science section? Ever see a book with "PhD" after the author's name? Did this result in you wanting to expunge the scientific record of any results by the same author?

      The standard of "publishing a book or otherwise profiting from publicity" has never been applied as the basis for retraction of published work. Usually, the response is closer to "hey, cool, someone spreading public interest in scientific research! Way to go!". Why suddenly change precedent for this case?

      If you want parallels to cold fusion, how about waiting for independent experiments to fail to reproduce the results? Cold Fusion fell apart not because other experimenters said "that can't be; bugger off," but because the results were not replicable when anyone else tried. Any research institution could do likewise in this case --- put together a statistically appropriate sample of ~50 rats in each group, and repeat the experiment. You're free to be skeptical of the researcher's motivations and research quality, but how about backing that up by doing better research instead of throwing around plausible but unsubstantiated allegations?

    63. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      If you want parallels to cold fusion, how about waiting for independent experiments to fail to reproduce the results?

      Other experiments have not reproduced the results.

      I have no idea why you are ignorant of those studies.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    64. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      Which studies, providing apples-to-apples comparison? Specifically, which studies focusing on long-duration effects, which was a key distinction of this study in comparison to typical shorter-term studies? This study has been recognized as being fairly distinctive for probing this portion of the outcome parameter space, even if only weakly. From Wikipedia on the publication, (bold mine):

      As a result of the publication of the Séralini paper, the Belgian Federal Minister of Public Health asked the Belgian Biosafety Advisory Council (BBAC) to evaluate the paper. The BBAC was asked to "inform the Minister whether this paper (i) contains new scientific information with regard to risks for human health of GM maize NK603 and (ii) whether this information triggers a revision of the current authorisation for commercialisation for food and feed use of this GM maize in the European Union (EU)."[58] Responding to the two point mandate, the BBAC committee, whose members are drawn from the Belgian biotech Professoriat,[58] pointed out that "the long duration of this study is a positive aspect since most of the toxicity studies on GMOs are performed on shorter periods," and concluded that:

      "Given the shortcomings identified by the experts regarding the experimental design, the statistical analysis, the interpretation of the results, the redaction of the article and the presentation of the results, the Biosafety Advisory Council concludes that this study does not contain new scientifically relevant elements that may lead to reconsider immediately the current authorisation for food and feed use of GM maize NK603. Considering the issues raised by the study (i.e. long term assessment), the Biosafety Advisory Council proposes EFSA urgently to study in depth the relevance of the actual guidelines and procedures. It can find inspiration in the GRACE project[59] to find useful information and new concerted ideas."[58]:9

      So, even though the paper was not deemed sufficiently conclusive for human health issue concerns, it is recognized by other scientific experts as covering an experimental region not well-represented in other experimental data. What experiments do you know about, that the BBAC did not, which refute the results?

    65. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by phantomfive · · Score: 1
      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    66. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      Thank you for proving my point that no such comparable research in this area exists. Otherwise, where this paper discusses the Seralini result --- which it dedicates a paragraph to --- it would have cited other research papers contradicting the claims. Since there are none comparable, it instead cites the commentary/criticisms of the Seralini result by various (industry-captured groups), which all repeat the same Monsanto-produced PR talking points not based on research specifically refuting the study claims.

      Yes, there are lots of other studies showing that other GMO products don't have other effects (at least to statistical precision often not much more impressive than the study under question). However, there is nothing to be seen that specifically addresses these results. When you find an anomalous result, the scientific approach to understanding it is to follow up with more detailed research, not brush it off because not-directly-comparable tests of different effects show different results.

    67. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      When you find an anomalous result,

      There has been no anomalous result found. I don't think you realize that. I don't know why you don't realize that, maybe you don't understand statistics?

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    68. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      I understand statistics well enough to know that "anomalous" isn't a precisely-defined technical term. In my posts above, I have repeatedly indicated that this is a statistically weak result. "Anomalous" is a subjective evaluation --- and, given the extreme attention this paper received, it certainly is "anomalous" enough from the norm to attract the ire of Monsanto's PR machine. However, whether or not this result should be termed "anomalous" is (like pretty much everything you say) a distraction from the main point that there is zero scientifically valid reason to expunge this research from the literature. The forced retraction is politically motivated, itself an example of bad science captured by corporate interests. There's no scientific problem with statistically weak results being left around, as incentive to supersede them with more accurate studies. The statistical inadequacy of this study speaks for itself, and should remind researchers to consider all results within their statistical limitations.

    69. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      I understand statistics well enough to know that "anomalous" isn't a precisely-defined technical term. In my posts above, I have repeatedly indicated that this is a statistically weak result.

      It's indistinguishable from random data. In other words (in case you have trouble understanding it), the rats developed cancer like you would have expected them to in that situation, whether given GMO or non-GMO maize.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    70. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      No problem understanding it; nor am I claiming differently. However, research is research, and should be published anyway, if only to show that a more significant result is not obtained. Publishing a low-statistics marginal result, for a research question not directly answered to better precision in other literature (you tried to claim otherwise... but failed; next time, read papers before linking them as "proof"), is extremely common scientific practice --- the prelude to refining results to more conclusively cover the topic of interest. Maybe the journal should have held higher standards for notability when initially accepting and reviewing the paper --- standards that are transparently and consistently applied to all research. Retracting the paper after-the-fact, because Monsanto PR went into a huff and ex-Monsanto-employees high in the chain of command objected, reeks of editorial misconduct. Retractions are typically reserved for cases of demonstrable scientific misconduct or gross error (which have not been demonstrated), not "buyer's remorse" because Monsanto is unhappy with a paper's quality.

      Retracting the paper is similar to throwing out data points along a line just because you don't like how they look --- they don't radically change the result of the fit, but they aren't neatly and tidily perfectly aligned with your expectation. The GMO PR industry wants every result to fall in a black-and-white category of "no chance whatsoever of GM causing harm." This is blatantly unscientific. By sheer random chance, some results may fall a bit outside the "null hypothesis". And, perhaps it's not all chance --- maybe there are some GMO effects that show up in very specific situations. You need to do experiments to tell this one way of the other, and not throw out datapoints that lie in the gray area between almost-too-perfect-to-be-true and p < 0.01 significance.

      This paper is indistinguishable from random data; and equally indistinguishable from a 30% increase in cancer rate. Ideological rejection of the findings' validity is not the right way to tell where the reality actually lies. Improving research to more precisely cover this range is. Keeping the paper in the publication record does nothing to harm scientific progress and understanding; retracting the paper does nothing to advance science --- this is purely a political/PR grandstanding move by an overly powerful industry that has captured key positions in the scientific and regulatory structure.

    71. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      This paper is indistinguishable from random data; and equally indistinguishable from a 30% increase in cancer rate.

      Yes, you would hope that scientists would do other studies before drawing a conclusion. Oh wait, they have, and all signs are that this grain does not cause cancer. But you are angry anyway. You must be an angry person.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    72. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      Again, what other studies? Even the professional boards that have rejected this study as being cause for immediate alarm about human health recognize that this probes a novel regime not covered in other literature. I don't care if cancer was not observed in entirely different situations, with their own limited statistics (perhaps not as broad as this paper, but far from "never ever ever happens" --- with a sample size of 100 in the GMO-fed group, in the very best case you can't rule out producing cancer in a couple percent of the population, which adds up on large scale). Your own attempt to reference "other studies" fell flat on its face, indicating zero other studies directly comparable to this situation. Let me quote another passage from the Ricroch paper you cited:

      Very few published long-term feeding studies use the same animal model or the same crop model. Moreover, the parameters studied varied. Hence no studies have been carried out twice in the same conditions by different research teams. Therefore, improvements in the protocols should be made, particularly focusing on repro- ducibility of data.

      In other words, no other studies adequately cover the same range, so further research is needed before blanket statements can be made inferring between experiments.

      The effects of cancer might well be magnified in the cancer-prone rats used for this study; and magnified in elderly, less young-and-healthy individuals from the long-term study. So, these rats might be more sensitive to smaller effects that are ruled out in studies of different situations. Just because all prior signs under different conditions indicate the grain doesn't cause cancer is not proof that it can't in this specific instance. To assume so is to assume an ideological, anti-scientific stance (right alongside Monsanto PR goons) --- which does indeed make me, as a professional scientist, angry. I'm not here to defend the paper's results; I wouldn't take a bet that future results won't solidly rule it out. I'm not in a panic to burn any GMO goods in my kitchen. However, engaging in scientific censorship, selectively throwing out research because it doesn't support corporate propaganda needs (rather than on any proper direct scientific grounds) should make any scientifically-minded person angry.

    73. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      In other words, no other studies adequately cover the same range, so further research is needed before blanket statements can be made inferring between experiments.

      Then go do more studies, no one is opposing that. This particular study, however, adds nothing to the scientific literature, and isn't even a model for future studies. The parameters were chosen so poorly, and the circumstantial evidence is such that it seems the entire study was designed to get a pre-desired result.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    74. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by femtobyte · · Score: 1

      Why is the burden on me to do more studies? I'm not the one selling a product to get stuffed in a billion people's mouths, and claiming it's so perfectly safe that there's no reason for the least caution and hesitation.

      If you can demonstrate how the experimental design would generate a pre-desired result, then you have evidence of actual experimental malfeasance that no one else has been able to find --- you might want to tell some Monsanto scientists who have been looking very hard for that. Sloppy experimental design cripples the statistical reach of the experiment, but, assuming the null hypothesis, is equally likely to produce large opposite results to what you want. Given the previous high profile of the researcher, and the length of the experiment, it would be a bit risky and hard to sweep under the rug if he "discovered" that Roundup-ready corn reduced cancer by 30%. Certainly a lot harder than for Monsanto to quietly roundfile any internal studies with undesirable results.

      Yes, you can tell the researcher was interested in making a test case that would be highly sensitive to, and magnify the results of, any differential response. Setting up an experiment to amplify sensitivity to small signals is not a scientific crime. The researcher screwed himself over with the high corresponding background rates. To say this experiment adds "nothing," however, to the scientific literature is a falsehood. It doesn't add much, but a sample size of 200 rats in 10 subgroups of 20 is still more empirical data than a sample size of 0 rats in subgroups of 0 plus ideological assertions that there couldn't possibly be any effect.

      The research approach may not be a model for future studies, but at least it highlights an area of research so poorly covered in the pre-existing literature that even this sad crappy result is best-in-class for its particular category. If the rest of the research community had their act together, so there were better comparable experiments that could be cited by GMO-supportive experts like your example Ricroch survey paper, then this experiment would not have become an issue. However, the industry approach of glossing over every concern as quickly and shallowly as possible --- rather than promoting a broad and deep research community that would have already filled the "vacuum" of low-hanging research questions --- highlights the need for external scrutiny and systematic independent research.

    75. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by Cytotoxic · · Score: 1

      Bad papers make it through peer review all the time. One of the best things about journal club is ripping apart a paper that has weak experimental design or unsupported conclusions. Editors miss this sort of thing quite frequently, particularly if the result is exceptional for some reason - things like cold fusion and arsenic life are extreme examples of this, but things like acupuncture and acai berries are also common examples.

      Things that are hard for reviewers to ferret out include built in biases such as too many degrees of researcher freedom and very small effects with barely statistically significant numbers. In this case they found a very small effect against a very large background of similar results. This sort of effect almost always disappears when the study is replicated. This is commonly seen in studies of homeopathy and other CAM treatments. One small study shows a small effect for some condition - which disappears in better designed follow-up studies. It is very common to find multiple degrees of freedom in these studies as well - examine a group of 100 people who take ginko for a couple of months and check 100 different biological markers. You should find 5 markers that show a statistically significant change due to random chance.

      In this case they split by gender - which sounds somewhat defensible - except that it means that they had an opportunity to double their fishing expedition - and they found a result in female mice. They also tested for a large number of different markers and checked a variety of organs, only seeing effects in some of the parameters. The paper makes it sound very impressive in the introduction - as if eating roundup resistant corn would increase your cancer risk by 300% to 600%. Further reading made these numbers a little less impressive. And reading the comments by researchers who are familiar with this strain of mouse leads one to believe that the results are exactly as expected, even if they had not been given any GMO feed, due to the animal's innate susceptibility to exactly these effects from simply being fed too much. The researchers in this paper allowed the mice to eat their fill.

      None of this means their results are wrong. Just that the data is way to shaky to support the conclusions and level of discussion this paper garnered.

      It should be pretty easy to do the correct study without spending money on mice and technicians, just on testing. Millions of animals are fed exclusively on GMO corn feed. Millions more are never fed GMO corn. It should be pretty straightforward to get access to a few thousand examples of the same breed of pig or chicken from each group and check them for any number of health effects. Of course, these animals are not nearly as prone to spontaneous tumors, so the incidence of cancers will be much, much lower. And I suppose we have our anecdotal results right there as well - surely a negative health effect would be noticed across millions of animals over the last decade. Farmers tend to take things like feed that makes their animals sick quite seriously.

    76. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by Cytotoxic · · Score: 1

      I can't support your conspiracy theory, but you do point out a major flaw in the current peer-review publication model. Interesting stuff makes it in to the journals. New stuff makes it in. Interesting and new stuff makes it into Nature, even if the paper itself is rather weak.

      Boring stuff doesn't make Nature. Boring things like replication of other results. If you can get a contradictory result you are in. But confirming? Nah, not gonna get published unless there is something really significant going on. A huge percentage of publications in medicine are not replicated. We really do need a change in the system such that, as you put it, all the data points are preserved. Plus it would have been great to pick up a few publications as a graduate student by replicating studies. (Although I'm not sure "didn't work, culture got contaminated" counts as a result worth preserving. It is surprising how often critical steps get left out of the materials and methods section. Heck, I might have paid for a publication that was entirely composed of attempts at replicating an experiment using only the information in the materials and methods. Yeah rookie, of course you have to solublize in DMSO first! Everybody knows that...)

      To the extent that the PR machine went ballistic in this case, it is because their livelihood was being attacked by another PR machine based on what is in all probability an erroneous result. Failing to answer this propaganda would not be a good idea for them, any more than having our public health officials sitting around mutely waiting for further study while the celebrities told us that vaccines made their kids autistic was a good idea. Dow Corning didn't counter the BS claims about their breast implants very effectively and they went out of the business while paying out millions in claims. It didn't really help them when they were vindicated by further studies years later.

    77. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by idunham · · Score: 1

      Don't forget about Lenape potatoes. Even if the study was correct, the same sort of problem has happened with conventional breeding.

      "Plant-incorporated pesticides," to use the ag term, are not new pesticides. They are old ones in a new place.
      For example: BT corn. It gets its name, and its effectiveness, from Bacillus thuringiensis, a bacterium that is a selective insect killer (different strains target different insects).
      B. thuringiensis has long been used as an organic pesticide.
      Pesticide resistance and tolerance are also not new traits; they come from species that were exposed to the pesticide and turned out to be resistant or tolerant.

      The reason for the focus is that a farmer can lose most of his crop to certain major pests and diseases. It makes more sense to prevent crop loss while keeping yield potential constant than to increase yield potential 20% while still risking 80% of the crop.

      Besides, that's not all that GMOs are developed for, though most are. Drought tolerance research has been in progress for a while, and at least one of the varieties has been approved.
      And there's high lysine corn, high oleic acid soybeans, soybeans modified for improved yield, soybeans modified to produce stearidonic acid or have a better fatty acid profile, reduced nicotine tobacco, and reduced lignin alfalfa.

    78. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah yes, Monsanto and the rest of the biotech industry has managed to pay off hundreds of scientists and universities. It's a grand conspiracy - just like that AGW theory is a conspiracy among hundreds of climate scientists and universities to plot communism, right?

      Tell me this - how much money is the multi-billion-dollar organic food industry paying you to spread FUD of biotech and GMOs?

    79. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by Xylantiel · · Score: 1

      That depends on what you mean by "harm". The ecosystem harm of the associated extensive use of herbicides is obvious.

    80. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Having read all the sordid details of the Monsanto backed studies, I have a hard time believing they actually got published in journals. The criteria they used weren't even 50% as exacting as the one being pulled now, and no one has even mentioned that yet?

    81. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think my favorite part of this exchange is how phantomfive so glibly pretends he's even read any of the involved articles. The study being retracted actually used twice as many subjects as the Monsanto sponsored studies. There is absolutely no room for anyone to say there weren't enough test subjects, without also simultaneously saying that EVERY OTHER study conducted by Monsanto also suffers the exact same problem.

    82. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Why is the burden on me to do more studies? I'm not the one selling a product to get stuffed in a billion people's mouths, and claiming it's so perfectly safe that there's no reason for the least caution and hesitation.

      Because you care. The burden is always on the one who cares.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    83. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      Wealthy patron was equivalent to corporate funded. Less biased? I suppose it could be....

    84. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by strikethree · · Score: 1

      Hardly no one looks for examples of harm from non-GMO corn either.

      Very insightful. How will we have any hope of a baseline if do not measure it?

      the difference is some is engineered with selective breeding and hybridization

      We have thousands of years of experience that this is safe. It may not be safe, but thousands of years is a very persuasive argument.

      and the other by resequencing.

      We have no reason to believe this is safe or unsafe. It is not something that can happen without direct genetic manipulation. It is easy to conceive of intentionally making a genetically modified organism that could kill off an entire species. IIRC, there are people who are actually doing this or have done it in the past.

      The begs the question (am I using that right?), could a hostile organism be created by accident? If one is created by accident, how would we find out about it? What are the methods put in place to stop it?

      Please recall that we have thousands of years of experience in one kind of genetic manipulation and perhaps 50 years of another kind. While they both deserve scrutiny, which one deserves the greater amount?

      The only reason we pay attention to the latter is there's a contingent of motivated believers who think that "natural" food contains Maggi Health Fairies, and that Big Science and Corporations kill the fairies by Playing God(!!1!@1!).

      How do you expect to have a rational conversation when you are spewing such garbage? I understand your frustration with people stuck in their beliefs but to characterize all opinions different than yours as being of that type of belief is worse than useless and pretty much ends the conversation. At which point, the ignorant people who yell the loudest will win. Enjoy.

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
    85. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by smaddox · · Score: 1

      And yet induction continues to be used to generate every single scientific hypothesis, theory and law.

    86. Re:'no definitive conclusions can be reached' by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      While I agree that to date, all studies do show that GMO food is safe, there is a major difference between selective breeding and inserting genes into plants that would likely never end up in those plants naturally. I think it is valid to be concerned about unintended consequences, especially when just a handful of companies are in control of vast amounts of the world's seed supply.

  6. The US isn't always wrong. by jellomizer · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Corn is a major export crop of the United States.

    Europe government wants to promote food that is grown within the Union. It really makes sense that a European scientist would feel pressured to find evidence against a primary US import.
    As the US agriculture system is very efficient at making low cost food.

    I know it is trendy to be Anti-American as it must be some conspiracy from big US companies to hide the truth, like with Big Tobacco.
    But what if GM Food is actually perfectly safe like the science says it is.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    1. Re:The US isn't always wrong. by AlecC · · Score: 2

      In this case, I really don't think it is anti-American but anti-GM. There is a very widespread fear of GM. Which, as it happens, I disagree with. But, right or wrong, people are afraid of GM and shouting at their politicians about it.

      --
      Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
    2. Re:The US isn't always wrong. by phantomfive · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Fortunately, in this case, it's ok to be annoyed by both sides: Elsevier and the guys who did the study. Both are bad.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    3. Re:The US isn't always wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But what if GM Food is actually perfectly safe like the science says it is.

      Uh, the science does not say anything like that. A particular GM crop can be tested on animals and humans. A number of them had to be withdrawn, for example because of triggering food allergies. And that just tests one element in the food chain. It does not test what the substances break down to and what those components may do. It does not test how the crop competes with natural crops, and how it affects insects, bacteries (the majority of which are a necessary part of the soil's life cycle) and wildlife. It does not test the susceptibility to further mutation, and which traits might evolve.

      Some of the directions evolution takes are sobering: death caps grow in symbiosis with hard wood trees. They produce absolutely deadly poison that kills with a delay of about a week. Good enough to wipe out a deer population endangering the tree bark.

      Castor beans are even worse.

      Many plants have developed into an equilibrium in their respective niche: most mutations deviating from a given sweet point are not competitive, and so they don't go anywhere. And various pieces of DNA strand are differently susceptible to mutation, and the information has evolved to places where the susceptibility to mutation corresponds with the variance of environmental changes to which adaption is necessary.

      An artificially created gene sequence is a new starting point.

    4. Re:The US isn't always wrong. by aaaaaaargh! · · Score: 2

      I have nothing against the US selling GM food in Europe, as long as every customer can decide for himself, but this is in reality not the case. The problem is that in European countries the labelling requirements for GM food are generally inadequate and do not cover all cases, e.g. there is no labelling for ingredients below a certain percentage, some pre-processed ingredients or meat from animals fed with GM plants. In fact, most of the labelling is so fine-print that it cannot even be read through a looking glass - illegaly so, but who would go from the supermarket all the way to court only to get slightly larger letters.

      I personally do not wish to buy any GM food, not even traces of it, and also do not wish to buy meat produced from animals fed with GM plants, for reasons that have nothing to do with health concerns. I simply do not wish to directly or indirectly support companies like Monsanto who patent genes, blackmail and sue farmers who do not want to buy their shit, and generally are 0 trustworthy. In a nutshell, if there was a mandatory big red warning label "GM" on each and every product during which production GM plants played any role whatsoever, nobody would complain about the US trying to sell their "low cost food".

      As for the scientists, their point that one of the editors worked for Monsanto deserves some consideration, doesn't it?

    5. Re:The US isn't always wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know it is trendy to be Anti-American as it must be some conspiracy from big US companies to hide the truth, like with Big Tobacco.

      If big companies would stop trying to hide the truth, we wouldn't be assuming they are.

      But since large corporations (and not just American ones) always seem to be in the process of hiding the truth or putting the right spin on things, it's far safer to assume they're all essentially lying crooks.

      That a lot of them happen to be American is a coincidence -- because in general, most multinationals are all acting like assholes these days.

      Maybe you need to stop feeling so persecuted and that we're singling you out for is being Americans. The reality is, we're mostly growing to distrust capitalism in its current form -- you guys just happen to be the biggest cheerleaders and apologists for the robber barons who are fucking everything up.

    6. Re:The US isn't always wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Fears about GM being somehow more unhealthy or poisonous than regular food are pretty irrational.
      However, there are other fears that are more sensible, that have gotten conflated with the health fears, and for some people it's now impossible to separate them:

      - Fear that untested modified genes will escape into the environment and mess up the local ecosystem
      - Fear that GM crops (roundup-ready!) will increase the use of insecticides, which is a whole other barrel of worms
      - Fear that GM foods will give well-connected, litigious and unscrupulous companies *cough*Monsanto*cough* unprecedented and monopolistic control over the world's food supply.

    7. Re:The US isn't always wrong. by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      We don't want to risk the 'if'.
      You know, in the USA you can do what you want, usually there is no law hindering you. You wait till you get sued into oblivion when something goes wrong.
      In europe we usually have laws. Regarding GM food, most of the people, and luckily also most of the politicians, are against it.
      I don't want to wait till we see 'if it is dangerous' or till we see 'if it is harmless'.
      I simply don't want it at all.
      That is my choice AND my right!

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    8. Re:The US isn't always wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As the US agriculture system is very efficient at making low cost food

      You mean like this?
      http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-09-09/farmers-boost-revenue-sowing-subsidies-for-crop-insurance.html

    9. Re:The US isn't always wrong. by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Clap! Clap! +10 insightfull and to the point!

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    10. Re:The US isn't always wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fears about GM being somehow more unhealthy or poisonous than regular food are pretty irrational.

      How do you figure that?

      When you attempt to bake insecticides into a plant destined for human and animal consumption, the question is pretty damned valid.

      There are plenty of rational reasons to want to see comprehensive testing by non-partisan science, which is quite hard to achieve with a corrupt behemoth breathing down everybody's neck.

      I wouldn't touch GM foods with a ten foot pole, -which is getting to be very difficult these days.

    11. Re:The US isn't always wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Welcome to pathological pseudoscepticism. You must be new here.

    12. Re:The US isn't always wrong. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When you attempt to bake insecticides into a plant destined for human and animal consumption, the question is pretty damned valid.

      Humans aren't insects. It's completely irrational automatically assume that what can kill an insect will kill a human too.

    13. Re:The US isn't always wrong. by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      As far as I know there's only one GM crop being used that produces an insecticide, and that's one that's got a lot of evidence that it doesn't affect mammals at all. Someone posted elsewhere that it's approved for use on organic crops.

      MOST GM crops that are being currently used, including the one under discussion, are modified to be resistant to externally applied insecticides and herbicides.

    14. Re:The US isn't always wrong. by kurzweilfreak · · Score: 2

      When you attempt to bake insecticides into a plant destined for human and animal consumption, the question is pretty damned valid.

      Only to someone whose entire knowledge of the subject is "insecticide", rather than BT-produced Cry proteins, which we know an awful lot about, such as how insects react to them (explodes their alkaline guts, which is why they're used) and how humans react to them (which is to say, not at all, since the proteins are digested in mammalian acidic guts that both renders them inactive and lacks the appropriate receptors for them to bind to, causing the insect explosion).

      Seriously, there are people who actually know this stuff. No one is just making this shit up willy-nilly.

      --

      kurzweil_freak

      5th Kyu Genbukan Ninpo/KJJR student

      Be the darkness that allows the light to shine.

    15. Re:The US isn't always wrong. by scorp1us · · Score: 1

      "But what if GM Food is actually perfectly safe like the science says it is."
      But what if it isn't? The problem I have with GM food is at this point in time, the promise of "better" food is not realized. Instead we have "roundup ready" food. Meaning it can survive a lot of pesticide exposure. So what happens? It gets drenched in pesticides. So are GM foods safe? Propably, in the lab, where they don't need to be exposed to pesticides. Then you publish the results of those plants. But who knows the residual affects of pesticides on the food you actually consume, which have grown in the pesticides?

      --
      Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
    16. Re:The US isn't always wrong. by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 1

      What does his post have to do with skepticism, let alone pseudoscepticism, let alone pathological pseudoscepticism? He wants to do what the capitalists so eagerly tell him he should do, and vote with his euros. He doesn't want to support Monsanto, and with very good reason. They want to patent genes outright, not just techniques for using genes in living species. They want to sell terminator seeds, which are guaranteed to produce sterile crops, in order to lock farmers in to buying seeds again next year, and forever after. They're downright evil. All he's asking for is labeling that gives him sufficient information to actually carry out his choice.

      Your reading comprehension sucks.

  7. what about all of those other comprehensive studie by White+Jesus · · Score: 1

    oh wait, they don't exist: "This new study is destined to raise more questions than it answers," he said. But at this point, a few things are clear. It is outrageous and shocking that this is the first long-term feeding study, even though genetically engineered foods have been on the market for nearly 20 years." source: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/study-says-genetically-modified-corn-causes-tumors-but-other-scientists-skeptical-about-research/

  8. Read the definition of corn... by clonan · · Score: 4, Informative

    Gan: Corn is defined as a small hard grain/seed

    Wheat is corn
    Rice is corn
    Rye is Corn
    Millet is Corn

    Maize is also corn

    The term Corn used in supermarkets is actually slang....

    If you are going to be a vocab critic then at least get the vocab right!

    1. Re:Read the definition of corn... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a good thing we all got together and agreed that "corn" would be the one word in the English language that would never be changed. Preserved like an insect in amber for millions of years, unchanging as the darkness of the night sky, "corn" stands forever as a monument to our unity of resolve as English-speakers. God bless us prescriptivists, every one.

    2. Re:Read the definition of corn... by Jonner · · Score: 1

      Gan: Corn is defined as a small hard grain/seed

      Wheat is corn
      Rice is corn
      Rye is Corn
      Millet is Corn

      Maize is also corn

      The term Corn used in supermarkets is actually slang....

      If you are going to be a vocab critic then at least get the vocab right!

      Though "corn" has meant any kind of grain for most its history, it has now come to mean "maize" in America. This has been standard usage and not just slang for well over 100 years. If someone says "corn" in the US, it never means "wheat," "rye," "barley," "rice," or "millet." In an international context, it is most clear to use "maize," but to call "maize" "corn" in America is no less correct than to call a fluffy wheat bun leavened with baking soda a "biscuit."

  9. Whew! by multimediavt · · Score: 1

    Study Linking GM Maize To Rat Tumors Is Retracted

    Thank heaven for that! Somebody pass the corn please.

  10. dark ages all over again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This absolutly ludicrous. Peer reviewed research has to be anulled by other peer reviewed research. Not by decree of the publisher. This is an insult to both the authors and those who reviewed and accepted the paper.

    What 's next? The GM Inquisition forcing researchers to denounce their work and eat GM foods or throwing them to the pyre?

  11. "No definitive conclusions" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Here http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/specrel/www/ is another paper which did not, itself, contain sufficient evidence to form "definitive conclusions." But publishing it sure put other scientists on a path to do research that eventually did provide some definitive conclusions...

  12. hard to prove a negative by Chirs · · Score: 2

    It's *really hard* to prove that something is safe, you pretty much need to test every possible interaction.

    It's relatively simple to prove that something is not safe--you just need to find one thing demonstrating lack of safety and then you're done.

    That said, I think there should be some level of due diligence required before bringing a GM food to market. That said, the current alternative to GMOs is irradiating DNA to force it to mutate, which causes way more changes in unrelated areas and offers all the dangers of GMOs, but currently has basically no labelling requirements.

  13. Monsanto Fanboys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We all know of Apple fanboys here. But Monsanto fanboys? That's definitely a new trend.

    1. Re:Monsanto Fanboys? by Kohath · · Score: 2

      I'm more of a no witch hunts fanboy.

    2. Re:Monsanto Fanboys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      They're not Monsanto fanboys - simply ignorance haters. Monsanto might be corrupt, but they're nowhere near as evil as hippie conspiracy theorists think.

    3. Re:Monsanto Fanboys? by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      I'm firmly in the methodological naturalism fanboy group.

    4. Re:Monsanto Fanboys? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Monsanto is a corporation so they are pretty much amoral. They will do whatever it takes to maximize their profits. Evil included.

      I agree that typically they won't pursue profit through actively being evil, as a "hippie conspiracy theorist" would think. That would cause too much public outcry.
      But when there are signs that their (profittable) actions may result to evil, they will happilly do everything in their powers to stop any further investigation while squeezing out all the profit they can until their activity is proven harful and banned. For this they successfully play the "innocent until proven guilty" card. Which IMHO must be removed from the deck when it comes to public health issues.

      The exact same has happened before with the tobacco industry. Hell, they even advertised smoking as a healthy habit! It took decades until smoking was undeniably declared harmful.

      Ignoring the apove and keep pretending that Monsanto is a person who wouldn't even think of doing something bad, that is ignorance.

  14. No surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Séralini has for years been trying to find evidence to support his theory. He should have been fired years ago.

    "The Séralini Paradox"
    (as translated by Google)
    http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pseudo-sciences.org%2Fspip.php%3Farticle2072

  15. Wrong issues with GMOs by presidenteloco · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Direct health effects of GMO foods are IMHO only the third most important potential concern with GMOs.

    The first concern is that whatever you have engineered, it is self-reproducing and could potentially take over a niche in a whole ecosystem, displacing other species or naturually adapted varieties, and you in general could not stop this if it happened. So eco-systems then become fully the responsibility of human biology tweakers.
    This seems generally unwise. The consequences of such ecosystem shifts is too complex to be predicted.

    A second concern is that each genetic engineering modification needs to be fully assessed separately from all others, due to the complexity of the systems into which they are being inserted. Or at least, very narrow equivalence classes of modifications need each to be individually, and in combination, re-tested for long term effects, viability, viability and effects of likely mutations of the tweak etc, each time they are tweaked.
    The cost of such repeated and long term safety testing is well beyond the capability of the companies producing the products, so we can be sure that such rigorous, long term, and repeated (when product is varied) testing is not being done.
    Instead, smaller numbers of specific tests on a subset of engineered varieties are generalized in alleged applicability and conclusion, to save money.

    So there is still a lot of know unknown and unknown unknown out there, and it is the kind of product that in general, self-reproduces and also expands in range.

    --

    Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
    1. Re:Wrong issues with GMOs by westlake · · Score: 1

      The first concern is that whatever you have engineered, it is self-reproducing and could potentially take over a niche in a whole ecosystem, displacing other species or naturually adapted varieties, and you in general could not stop this if it happened. So eco-systems then become fully the responsibility of human biology tweakers.

      As they have been for the past 10,000 years or so.

      The Olmec and Mayans cultivated maize in numerous varieties throughout Mesoamerica. Beginning about 2500 BC, the crop spread through much of the Americas. The region developed a trade network based on surplus and varieties of maize crops. After European contact with the Americas in the late 15th and early 16th centuries, explorers and traders carried maize back to Europe and introduced it to other countries. Maize spread to the rest of the world because of its ability to grow in diverse climates.

      Maize

    2. Re:Wrong issues with GMOs by hibiki_r · · Score: 1

      Well, self reproducing to a point. Soybeans are self reproducing alright, but second generation corn has very different genetics that whatever was planted in the first place. It probably grows way worse too.

      Now, the interesting question is why, specifically, we would consider that the GMO is riskier than a wild conventional crop. Mutations happen. Agrobacteria can alter the DNA of a plant in nature, just like it's done in a lab. We are just assuming that one is potentially dangerous, and the other is not.

      Now, if what we wanted was a clear genetic lineage in the plants we eat, with well controlled genetics, agribusiness would actually love it, because big corn sells 100% identical hybrids. After a certain amount of testing, they'd be pretty darned sure that you are getting the exact same genetics you got last year, barring natural mutation that happens in any crossing. If I want to do the same through natural means, I need to either use the exact same hybridization techniques that you'll get from Monsanto or Dupont, or only grow inbred corn, which has terrible yields. No more replanting random seedcorn, because at that points, who knows where the pollen came from.

    3. Re:Wrong issues with GMOs by presidenteloco · · Score: 1

      > "Now, the interesting question is why, specifically, we would consider that the GMO is riskier than a wild conventional crop"

      We are coming to a point in genetic engineering technology where entirely custom organism genomes will be able to be created with four bottles of chemicals: (A)denine, (C)ytosine, (T)hymine and (G)uanine, a computer code specifying the desired sequence, and a computerized melecular assembly machine. Limited examples of this have already been carried out, and its general application is not far off.

      The appropriate term then becomes "synthetic biology" not the more limited "genetic modification".

      We already see genes from distant species spliced in to other species (fish genes into tomatoes etc).

      The answer to the "why more risk" question is that the combinatoric possibilities for novelty of genome and novelty of effect are much greater in genetic engineering than in evolutionarily selected natural mutation.

      Ordinary mutation has characteristics like that it is usually only an incremental change (genetic-informationally) from the pre-mutated genome. It is true that even incremental informational change in the genome can lead to large effects in the phenotype (the organism), but with current day and near future genetic engineering, there is no longer a restriction to incremental informational change to the genome.

      Most variations will, as usual, not be viable, but if one is by chance or design, it could easily be very different than anything seen in earth life so far, because its synthetic genome can be arbitrarily different.

      --

      Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
    4. Re:Wrong issues with GMOs by scorp1us · · Score: 1

      I don't see your point. We've been messing with genes for 10,000 years now.

        The problem I have with GM food is at this point in time, the promise of "better" food is not realized. Instead we have "roundup ready" food. Meaning it can survive a lot of pesticide exposure. So what happens? It gets drenched in pesticides. So are GM foods safe? Propably, in the lab, where they don't need to be exposed to pesticides. Then you publish the results of those plants. But who knows the residual affects of pesticides on the food you actually consume, which have grown in the pesticides?

      So far, unless it starts raining Round Up, there is no selection preference. meaning it's a crap shoot.

      --
      Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
  16. Nearly no one has looked? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The scientific community begs to differ: http://www.biofortified.org/genera/studies-for-genera/

    You must live in some bizarro world where 600 can be rounded to zero.

    Seriously, where do you guys get your talking points on GMOs? Because it just isn't true.

    1. Re:Nearly no one has looked? by femtobyte · · Score: 0

      So, where was the pre-existing study in those 600 that tested for the effects claimed in this study, and found contradictory results with a more statistically relevant sample size? Really, for stuff going in to the food supply of billions of people, and saturating Earth's major ecosystems, "600 studies" (largely industry-funded, from an industry with extreme PR manipulation emphasis) isn't all that impressive. There are lots of things to look at --- and, when you find one that (statistically weakly) turns up a problem, shouldn't the response be to do further research with more statistically powerful sample sizes instead of suppressing the research (which already passed peer review, under extremely close scrutiny)?

    2. Re:Nearly no one has looked? by mosb1000 · · Score: 1

      ANY number can be rounded to zero.

  17. Science wins by onyxruby · · Score: 1

    Science wins and political extremists lose today, and for that progress for humanity is made. Any time a political extremist tries to hijack science to push a political agenda they should be subject to the greatest of scrutiny. Science can and must rise above politics for the greater good of humanity and in this case it did. Here's hoping science can do so in other realms as well.

    1. Re:Science wins by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you've got it backwards. There is a book called Genetic Roulette that summarizes hundreds of studies proving that GMO food is harmful. Monsanto plays politics by putting their people in places of power in government and scientific journals to squash dissent. I go out of my way to make sure everything that I eat is certified organic, have organic seed vaults, and eventually plan to grow much of my own food. I'm vegetarian so no animals needed.

    2. Re:Science wins by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Leaving the GM debate aside, how exactly is a forceful retraction of a peer reviewed piece of research a victory for science?
      I would welcome any peer reviewed piece of research disproving Séralini's work as a dung. That would be the scientific way to do it. But instead I read about threats and a forceful retraction.

      Sorry to break your bubble, but politics won this time.

    3. Re:Science wins by onyxruby · · Score: 1

      Really! Hundreds of studies showing that GMO is harmful? Stop the presses, gather the pitchforks and round up the boys quick! How on earth did HUNDREDS of studies showing GMO is harmful get overlooked by the entire scientific community? You have to be right that Monsanto has orchestrated suppressed this with a worldwide conspiracy across two hundred plus countries with different religions and political views. The world is secretly ruled by Monsanto, they are the world's puppeteers!

      Better yet how did a worldwide conspiracy theory to buy off the entire scientific community ever make it? Where is wikileaks? Thousands, tens of thousands of people, perhaps even hundreds of thousands of people must be involved in a worldwide conspiracy to suppress HUNDREDS of scientific studies. Why hasn't anyone blown the lid off this and put Snowden on page 2?

      Amazing story you have there, let me sit back and place this one somewhere between JFK assassinations conspiracies and the Illuminati. You could make a movie out of this and everything, think of the fortune to be made. You could even afford to feed your whole family at Whole Foods for a week - wow!!!!

    4. Re:Science wins by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Leaving the GM debate aside, how exactly is a forceful retraction of a peer reviewed piece of research a victory for science?

      Because the peers reviewed in and showed it was bad science.

    5. Re:Science wins by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      Genetic Roulette is written by a guy that teaches yogic flying. He has no training as a scientist what so ever, or any expertise in biotech.

      The book itself is nonsensical.

      It's like having Jenny McCarthy write a book on vaccine safety.

      Here is a comparison of the contents of Genetic Roulette to actual peer reviewed science.

      http://academicsreview.org/reviewed-content/genetic-roulette/

    6. Re:Science wins by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, this is how it starts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto#US_Public_officials.27_connections_to_Monsanto

      That number has increased as well, and will likely only increase until we get rid of all the Demoncrats, preferably by hanging them all.

  18. Rats! by westlake · · Score: 3, Informative

    When does ambition or the will to believe begin to look more like fraud?

    The biggest criticism from both reviews is that Seralini and his team used only ten rats of each sex in their treatment groups. That is a similar number of rats per group to that used in most previous toxicity tests of GM foods, including Missouri-based Monsanto's own tests of NK603 maize. Such regulatory tests monitor rats for 90 days, and guidelines from the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) state that ten rats of each sex per group over that time span is sufficient because the rats are relatively young. But Seralini's study was over two years --- almost a rat's lifespan --- and for tests of this duration, the OECD recommends at least 20 rats of each sex per group for chemical-toxicity studies, and at least 50 for carcinogenicity studies.

    Moreover, the study used Sprague-Dawley rats, which both reviews note are prone to developing spontaneous tumors. Data provided to Nature by Harlan Laboratories, which supplied the rats in the study, show that only one-third of males, and less than one-half of females, live to 104 weeks. By comparison, its Han Wistar rats have greater than 70% survival at 104 weeks, and fewer tumors. OECD guidelines state that for two-year experiments, rats should have a survival rate of at least 50% at 104 weeks. If they do not, each treatment group should include even more animals --- 65 or more of each sex.

    ''There is a high probability that the findings in relation to the tumor incidence are due to chance, given the low number of animals and the spontaneous occurrence of tumors in Sprague-Dawley rats,'' concludes the EFSA report. In response to the EFSA's assessment, the European Federation of Biotechnology --- an umbrella body in Barcelona, Spain, that represents biotech researchers, institutes and companies across Europe --- called for the study to be retracted, describing its publication as a ''dangerous case of failure of the peer-review system.."

    Yet Seralini has promoted the cancer results as the study's major finding, through a tightly orchestrated media offensive that began last month and included the release of a book and a film about the work. Only a select group of journalists (not including Nature) was given access to the embargoed paper, and each writer was required to sign a highly unusual confidentiality agreement, seen by Nature, which prevented them from discussing the paper with other scientists before the embargo expired.

    Hyped GM maize study faces growing scrutiny [Oct 2012]

  19. Another Greenpeace Lie Exposed by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

    Gilles-Eric Séralini has published a whole series of journal articles purporting to expose the dangers of GMOs, glyposate etc.

    They are all lapped up and given great exposure by the mainstream media. They are all pointed at with great glee by the anti-GMO crowd as evidence that GMOs are really really bad for you.

    They are all junk science that should have never been published.

    The source of most of the funding for this work is Greenpeace.

    No doubt there will be more crap like this in the future. Hopefully more people will be able to recognize the fact it's junk science and reject it.

    It is amazing that Europe has fallen victim to these jerks. I thought their educational system was better than this. Apparently it's over-rated.

    The point has been reached where EU scientists are recognizing the bans on GMOs in Europe are harmful.

    http://www.euractiv.com/science-policymaking/chief-eu-scientist-backs-damning-news-530693

    1. Re:Another Greenpeace Lie Exposed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      how exactly are the bans on GMO harmful ? They promote natural foodstuffs vs the engineered shit produced in labs.

    2. Re:Another Greenpeace Lie Exposed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Real science:

      http://www.amazon.com/Genetic-Roulette-Documented-Genetically-Engineered/dp/0972966528/ref=sr_sp-atf_title_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1385748367&sr=8-3&keywords=genetic+roulette

    3. Re:Another Greenpeace Lie Exposed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Any rejection of science is harmful.

      Anyone that rejects science needs to be exterminated for the betterment of humanity.

    4. Re:Another Greenpeace Lie Exposed by thewolfkin · · Score: 1

      they're harmful because it deprives people of food that they can't otherwise afford. The idea is that there are people who can't get food period. GM rice is what enabled them to survive without malnutrition. In the first world GM foods again contain nutrients that people don't get enough of. Particularly if you're of a low income family.

      That's the sort of argument that's being made. Now personally i agree with most people that there's too much GM food. They did a good thing in the Great Depression by using government cuts to basically encourage corn production for instance.. but we don't need that anymore.. and thus we don't need that much corn any more. This is the entire reason they have high fructose corn syrup, because we over produce corn and had to find new ways to use it.

      But outright BANs on GM food are more complicated. The corn industry is huge they have some of the deepest pockets in the world. It's all very well and good to try to take them down but you don't want to hurt third world countries who need modified rice etc.

      Since you didn't ask I'm not like financially stable or anything but my part is that I don't eat meat on Thursdays. I'll probably never go full vegetarian but one day a week isn't too bad.

      --
      Just another second banana
    5. Re:Another Greenpeace Lie Exposed by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      Bullshit.

      Jeff Smith has no training as a scientist. He's great at teaching yogic flying though. A quick search on him will immediately turn up the fact that he's a charlatan. He is the equivalent of an anti-vaccine leader, someone who is quite successful in spreading fear and false information.

  20. wow! by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 1

    scientific progress never fails to amaize me.

    take that karma!

    --
    Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
  21. Actually reading the paper... by queazocotal · · Score: 2

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278691512005637

    The study involved 200 rats, half female, split into 10 groups.
    As I understand it, the greatest 'statistical significance' comes from the female rats.

    Taking one part, and closely analysing it.
    'Up to 14 months, no animals in the control groups showed any signs of tumors whilst 10–30% of treated females per group developed tumors, with the exception of one group (33% GMO + R). By the beginning of the 24th month, 50–80% of female animals had developed tumors in all treated groups, with up to 3 tumors per animal, whereas only 30% of controls were affected.'

    Starting with the first statement. 'up to 14 months, 1-3 rats in some of the groups developed tumors, whereas no rats in the control group or the group fed GMO + roundup did' So, of 7 groups, 2 groups were cancer free.

    Going onto the next part.
    3 rats got cancer in the control group.
    5-8 in the other 6 groups.
    But, half of those 6 groups were also fed roundup.

    So, a total of between 9 and 15 extra rats got cancer, apparantly, if you multiply up the control group.

    But - the whole basis of this paper now rests on two rats.
    If in the control group at the 24th month, 5 rats would normally have gotten cancer, and 2 happened to get lucky, the paper largely becomes non-statistically significant.

    I am not a statistician.

    If normally, half of rats get cancer at 24 months, then you would expect 5 rats, not 3 in the control group to have it.
    How likely is it that only three rats would die?
    Only if this chance is under 5% does the rest of the paper have any weight whatsoever.

    1. Re:Actually reading the paper... by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      "If in the control group at the 24th month, 5 rats would normally have gotten cancer, and 2 happened to get lucky, the paper largely becomes non-statistically significant."

      Not quite. Looking at the numbers, it seems highly unlikely those results are statistically significant. If a couple of rats got lucky the paper would have shown no difference, or the opposite (that GMO is good for you!). Showing a difference and being statistically significant are not the same thing.

    2. Re:Actually reading the paper... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The study involved 200 rats, half female

      And what were the other half?

    3. Re:Actually reading the paper... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Female rats are susceptible to mammary gland tumors. Any pet care website will tell you that. Then there's a whole list of what not to feed rats. Mostly because they can't digest particular proteins or put on weight.

    4. Re:Actually reading the paper... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even better is that breed of rat used is tumor prone. The rats were two years old which means much more likely to develop tumors or be exposed to one the many substances that can cause cancer in rats but are general safe for humans. Anytime somebody says this causes cancer based on animal tests, take it with gram of salt. The rats were allowed to eat unlimited quantities of the food this also causes cancer in rats. (What doesn't?) They found no dose-dependent correlation between the quantity of food consumed and the tumor rate which is standard for toxicology studies.

  22. Same type and fewer were used to "prove" it safe. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But I'd guess there's no will to retract the corporation's study, is there.

  23. You mean the original study? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because it took a conclusion of safety based on an even less rigorous set of data.

  24. arsenic in dna by Rutulian · · Score: 1

    Can we say arsenic in DNA?
    http://www.sciencemag.org/content/332/6034/1163

    It was only a few years ago, but I guess it has already left the public memory. A group of scientists rush to a hasty conclusion because they want to make a big splash. Science publishes it because they like controversy. A large flurry of criticism from the scientific community, but ultimately a number of papers get published refuting the original findings. We can ask the question...should it have been published? A lot of people think no, but it is an illustration of the scientific process.

    Sometimes bad science gets through peer review. Sometimes the science is not particularly bad, but the experimental design was missing something. Maybe they had an impurity in one of their reagents that they weren't looking for. Lots of incomplete or just outright wrong studies pass peer review and get published. But this is something the scientific community accepts as a part of the process. If you strongly disagree or suspect the conclusions of an article, do the experiments and publish a counter-study. Otherwise, you are free to make a lot of noise and be annoying, but then you might go the way of James Watson.

  25. Monsanto is powerful by koan · · Score: 1, Interesting

    'nuff said.

    --
    "If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
  26. Han's Wistar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Should a got some of Han's Wistar rats in there too.

  27. GMOs don't provide food people can afford. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They provide profits to the company patenting them.

  28. Not strange at all. by mosb1000 · · Score: 1

    You are totally wrong. It is easy to design an experiment to give you questionable results and this paper is an example of that. They choose small number rats that naturally get tumors all the time and then performed a lifetime study on them. The resulting data is exactly what you'd expect if you assumed the gmo food does not cause cancer. Nevertheless, the authors have presented a flawed statistical analysis to indicate the opposite. So even though they didn't fake the data, this is a good example of a paper that never should have been accepted for publication.

  29. Slashdog broken by mynamestolen · · Score: 1

    I've got lots of moderator points to use on SlashdoG, but why bother?
    EVERY time I visit /dog, even with my comments score set to 5, I get so much crap and repetition, repetition rep rep repitition that I wonder why I bother. Check my logs /dog. I'm spending less time on the site because it's not worth the time trawling through crap. Giving me Mod Points is not going to solve that. Surely we can devise a better system???

    --
    work in progress
  30. "Even though they had 200 rats" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And that was larger than the size of the study that "proved" this GMO safe, that doesn't matter???

    Really?

    Wow, you SERIOUSLY need to support that case!

    And, no, the SMALLEST group was 20, it wasn't 10 groups of 20. Yet that complete fabrication didn't even phase you, did it?

    And what groups where there?

    1) Control group. Your baseline. Without that, you have no basis to claim an effect or lack of one.
    2) Taking GMO food. Without that, you have nothing to say whether there was an effect tested for.
    3) Taking GMO food AND the product the GMO makes easy and cheap to use. This is what will happen with the product IN THE REAL WORLD. Without that, you're only proving that the lab rats did X, not that X will/will not happen.
    4) Given the product the GMO makes easy and cheap to use. Tests whether the product or the GMO is doing the damage.

    Then split by male and female, because the biology of both are very different. Female hormones in females is fine. In males, can cause some problems.

    And, lastly, they tested a longer time. That means any effect will be noted in a smaller group.

    So in effect negating your "Oh, it was tooo smaaaaaalllll" whine.

    1. Re:"Even though they had 200 rats" by mosb1000 · · Score: 1

      Ok, here is the actual paper. According to it:

      After 20 days of acclimatization, 100 male and 100 female animals were randomly assigned on a weight basis into 10 equivalent groups.

      So, I can do a little math. Ten equivalent groups taken from 200 animals is 20 animals each. This isn't rocket science. Breaking them out by sex is even worse, since it means that each group had only 10 animals.

      For each sex, one control group had access to plain water and standard diet from the closest isogenic non-transgenic maize control; six groups were fed with 11, 22 and 33% of GM NK603 maize either treated or not with R. The final three groups were fed with the control diet and had access to water supplemented with respectively 1.1 × 108% of R (0.1 ppb of R or 50 ng/L of glyphosate, the contaminating level of some regular tap waters), 0.09% of R (400 mg/kg, US MRL of glyphosate in some GM feed) and 0.5% of R (2.25 g/L, half of the minimal agricultural working dilution).

      Here are the 10 (not 4) groups:

      1) control (normal water, normal corn)
      2) 11% GM corn, not treated with roundup, normal water
      3) 11% GM corn, treated with roundup, normal water
      4) 22% GM corn, not treated with roundup, normal water
      5) 22% GM corn, treated with roundup, normal water
      6) 33% GM corn, not treated with roundup, normal water
      7) 33% GM corn, treated with roundup, normal water
      8) normal corn, traces of roundup in water
      9) normal corn, 0.09% roundup in water
      10) normal corn, 0.5% roundup in water

      So, I am speaking about this after having actually read and understood the paper. Why don't you give it a look?

    2. Re:"Even though they had 200 rats" by idunham · · Score: 1

      mosb1000 answered most of this, but I wanted to address this bit:

      And, lastly, they tested a longer time. That means any effect will be noted in a smaller group.

      ...assuming that the population characteristics of 2 year old rats are similar to those of 3 month old rats.
      Which is not necessarily the case.

      And if you actually read the graphs in the paper, you might notice a couple things:
      1: There's no indication of a dose-dependent response.
      If you have control and three treatments given increasing quantities of a toxin, the effects of the toxin should increase with dose.
      If the effects just fluctuate, you didn't have enough numbers.

      2. There's something missing on the graphs: error bars.

    3. Re:"Even though they had 200 rats" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1) yes lack of dose response counts against the effect existing. That is not the only relationship possible though, there could just be some threshold.
      2) I've never seen error bars on a kaplan-meier plot, how would you calculate them?

    4. Re:"Even though they had 200 rats" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "So, I am speaking about this after having actually read and understood the paper"

      So your complaint is that they did a better job of finding out to what extent the product causes a problem with confounding problems baselined by another group.

      Now, have you read Monsato's paper?

      Fewer rats (Monsato ued 10).
      Same rats as here.
      Shorter time (Cancer doesn't magically appear, it takes time), Monsato 90 days.

      Why not give it a look?

    5. Re:"Even though they had 200 rats" by mosb1000 · · Score: 1

      Do you understand that half of these rats will get cancer in their lifetime even if they are not exposed to any cancer-causing agents? They are extremely susceptible to cancer and they will get it very quickly if they are exposed to something that causes cancer. That is why researchers use them to see if something causes cancer. A short trial is what these rats have been bread for. After their time's up, you cut them open and see if there are any tumors. But if you wait too long, you will get tumors anyway and your experiment is ruined.

      So your complaint is that they did a better job of finding out to what extent the product causes a problem with confounding problems baselined by another group.

      You can see that they broke them up into groups and fed them increasing concentrations of GMO corn and roundup. With a carcinogen, there is a threshold minimum concentration where cancer appears, and increasing the concentration increases the odds an individual will get cancer. One problem with this study is doesn't show any relationship between concentration and cancer rates. Groups with higher concentrations showed lower rates of cancer than groups with lower concentrations. Many experimental groups showed lower rates of cancer than the control, in several cases the rats receiving the highest doses of supposed cancer causing agents had the lowest rates of cancer. So what's happened here is by chance the female control had less cancer than other female test groups. But in reality the data doesn't show a correlation between the concentration of roundup or roundup ready corn and cancer.

  31. The Real Truth of the Matter by rueger · · Score: 1

    Having skimmed though all of the comments above I feel obliged to offer my own assessment: Yes indeed, GMO foods are dangerous and cancer causing and likely cause acne as well, but only when consumed while standing next to a cel phone antenna.

  32. ENSSER comments on retraction... by Uncle_Meataxe · · Score: 1

    ENSSER (European Network of Scientists for Social and Environmental Responsibility)
    Comments on the Retraction of the Séralini et al. 2012 Study

    Journal's retraction of rat feeding paper is a travesty of science and looks like a bow to industry

    Elsevier's journal Food and Chemical Toxicology has retracted the paper by Prof. Gilles-Eric Séralini's group which found severe toxic effects (including liver congestions and necrosis and kidney nephropathies), increased tumor rates and higher mortality in rats fed Monsanto's genetically modified NK603 maize and/or the associated herbicide Roundup[1]. The arguments of
    the journal's editor for the retraction, however, violate not only the criteria for retraction to which the journal itself subscribes, but any standards of good science. Worse, the names of the reviewers who came to the conclusion that the paper should be retracted, have not been published. Since the retraction is a wish of many people with links to the GM industry, the suspicion arises that it is a bow of science to industry. ENSSER points out, therefore, that this retraction is a severe blow to the credibility and independence of science, indeed a travesty of science.

    Inconclusive results claimed as reason for withdrawal

    Elsevier, the publisher of Food and Chemical Toxicology, has published a statement[2] saying that the journal's editor-in-chief, Dr. A. Wallace Hayes, "found no evidence of fraud or intentional misrepresentation of the data". The statement mentions only a single reason for the retraction, namely that "the results presented (while not incorrect) are inconclusive". According to Hayes, the low number of rats and the tumour susceptibility of the rat strain used do not allow definitive conclusions. Now there are guidelines for retractions in scientific publishing, set out by the Committee on Publication Ethics (COPE)[3]. Inconclusiveness of research results is not one of the grounds for retraction contained in these guidelines. The journal Food and Chemical Toxicology is a member of COPE[4]. 'Conclusive' results are rare in science, and certainly not to be decided by one editor and a secret team of persons using undisclosed criteria and methods. Independent science would cease to
    exist if this were to be an accepted mode of procedure.

    Séralini paper a chronic toxicity study, not a full-scale carcinogenicity study

    Most notably, Séralini and his co-authors did not draw any definitive conclusions in the paper in the first place; they simply reported their observations and phrased their conclusions carefully, cognizant of their uncertainties. This is because the paper is a chronic toxicity study and not a full-scale carcinogenicity study, which would require a higher number of rats. The authors did not intend to look specifically for tumours, but still found increased tumour rates. Secondly, both of Hayes's arguments (the number of rats and their tumour susceptibility) were considered by the peer reviewers of the journal, who decided they formed no objection to publication. Thirdly, these two arguments have been discussed at length in the journal following the publication of the paper and have been refuted by the authors of the paper and other experts. Higher numbers of animals are only required in this type of safety studies to avoid missing toxic effects (a 'false negative' result), but the study found pronounced toxic effects and a first indication of possible carcinogenic effects. The Sprague-Dawley strain of rat which was used, is the commonly used standard for this type of research. For these reasons, the statistical significance of the biochemical data was endorsed by statistics experts. The biochemical data confirm the toxic effects such as those on liver and kidney, which are serious enough by themselves. The tumours and mortality rates are observations which need to be confirmed by a specific carcinogenicity study with higher numbers of rats; in view of public food safety, it is not wise to simply ignore them. Unpleasant result

  33. Meanwhile, at the European Parliament... by Uncle_Meataxe · · Score: 1

    http://www.gmwatch.org/index.php/news/archive/2013/15189

    A member of the Academy of Sciences plans to publish a demolition of Séralini's critics, while Corinne Lepage MEP warns that issues about GMO safety will not go away.

    Séralini and GMOs: A truly disturbing study
    Sophie Fabrégat
    actu-environnement.com, 28 Nov 2013
    GMWatch translation of French original at
    http://bit.ly/1987Rxq

    The journal Food and Chemical Toxicology could retract the article Gilles Eric Séralini on NK603 maize and the Roundup, published in September 2012. This reopens the debate on the assessment of long-term risks of GMO plants.

    During an emergency press conference in the European Parliament this Thursday, November 27 [GMW: should be 28], Gilles Eric Séralini, the author of the controversial study on the long-term risks of maize NK 603 and its associated herbicide, denounced the withdrawal by the journal of his article revealing the results of this study. Originally released in September 2012, this article was pointing to the toxicity to rats of transgenic maize NK603 and its associated herbicide, Roundup, both produced by Monsanto.

    On Tuesday, November 26, the scientist received a letter signed by the chief editor of the magazine, asking him to withdraw his article. The reason? "No fraud or manipulation of data" were detected by the reviewers, but "the results presented are inconclusive and therefore do not reach the threshold of the publication".

    Yet, says Professor Séralini, many exchanges took place before publication of his article, over several months. The editor recognizes that "the problem of the low number of animals had been identified during the initial peer-review process" but the article "still had merit despite its limitations". It was published, sparking intense controversy and heated debate between advocates and detractors. The scientific quality was the focus of discussions.

    The journal gave in to pressure?

    Why this reversal today? Due to pressure from industry, denounced in turn Joël Spiroux, President of Criigen (Committee for Independent Research and Information on Genetic Engineering); Corinne Lepage MEP; Paul Deheuvels, statistician member of the Academy of Sciences; and François Veillerette, President of Future Generations, who all came in support of the researcher. For Gilles-Eric Séralini, the demand addressed to him was related to "the arrival on FCT's editorial board of Richard Goodman, a biologist who worked for several years at Monsanto," between 1997 and 2004.

    The scientist scans the arguments of the publisher. The strain and the number of rats used in the two-year study are insufficient? Yet these are the same rats used by Monsanto to prove the safety of its products, Séralini replies. He goes even further, stating that an article presenting the results of a study demonstrating the safety of Monsanto NK603 were published in 2004 by the magazine, while the data of the study are "fraudulent", since the reference groups [ie control groups] are fed with seeds contaminated by GMOs and pesticides," he says.

    The statistician Paul Deheuvels says that he is surprised "that on the one hand this study is rejected, while the criticisms that are made could be made to the original study of Monsanto since Séralini copied the structure of this experiment". This member of the Academy of Sciences [Deheuvels] announced the publication, by the end of the year, of an article demolishing point by point the criticisms leveled at the team of Professor Séralini. For him, this study is "truly innovative. The data are very significant. This is a pilot study which must be confirmed or refuted. But given the significance of the data, I doubt it will be overturned."

    For an assessment of long-term risks of GMOs

    Finally, François Veillerette recalled that there are no studies on the chronic effe

  34. And, Seralini's response... by Uncle_Meataxe · · Score: 2

    Here's the Seralini team response to FCT. Basically, Seralini is challenging them to also retract the Monsanto study (e.g., Hammond et al. 2004):

    http://gmoseralini.org/professor-seralini-replies-to-fct-journal-over-study-retraction/

    Professor Seralini replies to FCT journal over study retraction

    Professor Gilles-Eric Séralini and his team have responded to the letter from A. Wallace Hayes, editor of Food and Chemical Toxicology (FCT), telling Prof Séralini that he intended to retract his study on NK603 maize and Roundup.

    Here’s the retraction notice from Elsevier, the publisher of FCT: http://prn.to/1euTk2W
    Response by Prof GE Seralini and colleagues to A. Wallace Hayes, editor of Food and Chemical Toxicology
    28 Nov 2013

    We, authors of the paper published in FCT more than one year ago on the effects of Roundup and a Roundup-tolerant GMO (Séralini et al., 2012), and having answered to critics in the same journal (Séralini et al., 2013), do not accept as scientifically sound the debate on the fact that these papers are inconclusive because of the rat strain or the number of rats used. We maintain our conclusions. We already published some answers to the same critics in your Journal, which have not been answered (Séralini et al., 2013).

    Rat strain

    The same strain is used by the US national toxicology program to study the carcinogenicity and the chronic toxicity of chemicals (King-Herbert et al., 2010). Sprague Dawley rats are used routinely in such studies for toxicological and tumour-inducing effects, including those 90-day studies by Monsanto as basis for the approval of NK603 maize and other GM crops (Sprague Dawley rats did not came from Harlan but from Charles-River) (Hammond et al., 2004; Hammond et al., 2006a; Hammond et al., 2006b).

    A brief, quick and still preliminary literature search of peer-reviewed journals revealed that Sprague Dawley rats were used in 36-month studies by (Voss et al., 2005) or in 24-month studies by (Hack et al., 1995), (Minardi et al., 2002), (Klimisch et al., 1997), (Gamez et al., 2007).Some of these studies have been published in Food and Chemical Toxicology.

    Number of rats, OECD guidelines

    OECD guidelines (408 for 90 day study, 452 chronic toxicity and 453 combined carcinogenicity/chronic toxicity study) always asked for 20 animals per group (both in 1981 and 2009 guidelines) although the measurement of biochemical parameters can be performed on 10 rats, as indicated. We did not perform a carcinogenesis study, which would not have been adopted at first, but a long-term chronic full study, 10 rats are sufficient for that at a biochemical level according to norms and we have measured such a number of parameters! The disturbance of sexual hormones or other parameters are sufficient in themselves in our case to interpret a serious effect after one year. The OPLS-DA statistical method we published is one of the best adapted. For tumours and deaths, the chronology and number of tumours per animal have to be taken into account. Any sign should be regarded as important for a real risk study. Monsanto itself measured only 10 rats of the same strain per group on 20 to conclude that the same GM maize was safe after 3 months (Hammond et al., 2004).

    The statistical analysis should not be done with historical data first, the comparison is falsified, thus 50 rats per group is useless

    The use of historical data falsifies health risk assessments because the diet is contaminated by dibenzo-p-dioxins and dibenzofurans (Schecter et al., 1996), mercury (Weiss et al., 2005), cadmium and chromium among other heavy metals in a range of doses that altered mouse liver and lung gene expression and confounds genomic analyses (Kozul et al., 2008). They also contained pesticides or plasticizers released by cages or from water sources (Howdeshell et al., 2003). Historical

  35. Next news by manu0601 · · Score: 1

    The editor retracting a scientific paper is no usual business. What is the next step? Seralini being charged for rape in Sweden?

  36. Woops! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Looks like global anthropogenic human heating is taking a heavy shot to the mid-ships!

    QED

  37. Is An English Language History Primer in Order? by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 1

    In case that wasn't a very droll joke...

    Brits? British? You mean the English? Why ever would they wish to put their own slant on the English language? For that matter I wonder where English came from? Certainly not the English. Could it have been? Maybe? Possibly? Or was English originally from Anglo-Saxon (read German) origins modified by the French language spoken by the Normans who successfully invaded of all places, England (home of the English)?

    And why on earth would the French language used by the Normans cause Latin based words to be infused into the English language along with other changes in spelling and grammar? I know! Of course, because it was posh in the 11th century!

    Oh those crazy Brits 1000 years ago, messing with Old English to create Middle English just to mess up those pesky Americans. The who? Oh, they won't be around for another 600 years? Ah well, carry on then. Keep working on the development of Middle and Modern English. Hmmmm... modern English. I get it, the language of which American English is a dialect, a 'sub form', not really the original 'proper' form of the language. Wait, what were you saying about who murdering whose language?

    --
    -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
    1. Re:Is An English Language History Primer in Order? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Yes, an English language history primer is clearly in order...

      First of all, this is not about the original English 1000 years ago, or being modified by Normans during their invasion. This is about much more recent events.

      The spelling of "honour", for example, was introduced in 18th century in British English to sound more French (well, "Norman" - they were "seeking their roots", as was popular in the then-popular national romanticism); ditto for many other "-our" words. Also theatre vs theater, and other such. And as far as -ize vs -ise goes, even Oxford had to admit that the former is proper.

      Americans, on the other hand, mostly inherited spelling of English as it was when the colonies separated, though they did simplify it further somewhat and made it more uniform. So for the majority of words, American spelling is both closer to historical one, and also the most uniform.

      But anyway, if you want to spell "Decembre" and "lettre" (these were actually mainstream in British English at some point), more power to you. The language is, frankly, messy enough already with respect to spelling vs phonetics that it doesn't change much.

    2. Re:Is An English Language History Primer in Order? by LordWabbit2 · · Score: 1

      Clearly you did not follow any of the links in theshowmecanuck's post.
      While you may have made it more uniform all you are doing is muddying the water

      And what's with your crappy date format (m/d/y) it causes untold grief in the computer world

      And fucking switch to metric already

      --
      There are three kinds of falsehood: the first is a 'fib,' the second is a downright lie, and the third is statistics.
    3. Re:Is An English Language History Primer in Order? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      I'm not an American, dude. Not even a native English speaker. And I have started with British English, then moved to American, so I have compared both - and can assure you that American is far easier to deal with.

      Date formats and their crazy measurement system are completely different topics.

  38. Females don't get testicular cancer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And males don't get ovarian cancer.

    Therefore if your product harms the reproductive organs, putting both sexes together means you've dropped the signal below the noise.

    Apparently, doing so is not statistically questionable, but anyone pointing this out is.

    1. Re:Females don't get testicular cancer by Cytotoxic · · Score: 1

      The problem isn't that the idea of including groups for sexes is questionable - it is the subdividing of small groups into even smaller groups based on numerous criteria. This is commonly done in small pilot studies that turn up marginal results which are later shown to be erroneous. Normally this is a non-issue. It is part of the scientific process - look for phenomena and then follow up with further study.

      But when the study becomes the basis for stories in the media - watch out. We see this over and over. A small study of (insert food, chemical product, alternative treatment here) that checks a bunch of different variables shows a significant change in one or two. The media runs with the story and people begin to act as if the study is "scientific truth". When the follow up studies show that the whole thing was nonsense, it is too late. The idea has already entered the public consciousness as fact.

      Here is a nice article about the effect of these sorts of preliminary results on the practice of medicine. It has some nice links to other sources on things like publication bias and researcher degrees of freedom that lead to the publication of false positives.

  39. BETTER HEADLINE- MONSANTO INSIDER FORCE RETRACTION by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 1

    A European network of scientists (ENSSER) has also published a scathing condemnation of FCT's behavior, warning that this level of corruption is "a flagrant abuse of science" that will "decrease public trust in science." No doubt.

    Going further, ENSSER condemned the FCT for violating "not only the criteria for retraction to which the journal itself subscribes, but any standards of good science."

            A recent article calling this matter 'The Goodman Affair,' noted that:

    Richard E. Goodman is professor at the Food Allergy Research and Resource Program, University of Nebraska. But he is also a former Monsanto employee, who worked for the company between 1997 and 2004. While at Monsanto he assessed the allergenicity of the company's GM crops and published papers on its behalf on allergenicity and safety issues relating to GM food (Goodman and Leach 2004)."Beyond all this, Seralini wasn't even looking for cancer, which would require a larger number of animals, but merely prepared a chronic toxicity study under the same conditions that Monsanto used to assert the GM corn's safety.

    ENSSER explains that the short term study found not only "pronounced toxic effects" but also "increased tumour rates." Further, the Sprague-Dawley strain of rat is the "commonly used standard for this type of research" and was the same one Monsanto used.

    Most importantly, "Unpleasant results should be checked, not ignored. And the toxic effects other than tumours and mortality are well-founded."

    ENSSER concluded that, "Prof. Séralini's findings stand today more than before, as even this secret review found that there is nothing wrong with either technicalities, conduct or transparency of the data - the foundations on which independent science rests. The conclusiveness of their data will be decided by future independent science, not by a secret circle of people."

    http://www.theorganicprepper.ca/gmo-rat-study-retracted-by-new-journal-editor-from-surprise-monsanto-11302013

    --
    "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
    Never been known to fail..."
  40. Séralini's reply and food for thought by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So does the journal now retract the other studies done with the same and in some cases more severe flaws that he points out?

    http://gmoseralini.org/professor-seralini-replies-to-fct-journal-over-study-retraction/

    "FCT should retract the Hammond et al. paper on Roundup tolerant maize for all these reasons, published for Monsanto’s authorization, or consider that each of these papers is part of the scientific debate."

    And on the subject of GMO foods .... The vast majority of them are sprayed with glyphosate (Roundup) and if you eat the GMO food you eat glyphosate. This paper (which nobody has criticized yet) clearly shows the pathway that glyphosate can destroy human health. In short the shikimate pathway is interfered with causing plants to die. That pathway exists in the bacteria in your gut where three quarters of your immune system is regulated. So are auto-immune and inflammation based diseases increasing?

    http://people.csail.mit.edu/seneff/Entropy/entropy-15-01416.pdf

    Anthony Samsel and Stephanie Seneff, "Glyphosate's Suppression of Cytochrome P450 Enzymes and Amino Acid Biosynthesis by the Gut Microbiome: Pathways to Modern Diseases" Entropy 2013, 15(4), 1416-1463; doi:10.3390/e15041416

  41. Re: Is An English Language History Primer in Order by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You posted a massive argument outlining why your original whinging post about British (everyone really does call you that) spellings was just that.

  42. What are GMOs used for? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How does it come that nobody seems to be aware that 99% of commercially available GMs are designed to work with herbicides which are made by the same companies, and that the main health concerns might be the consequences of these 'cides', rather than GMs themselves?
    By the way, if this study was not good, why not making a better study rather than retract the article?
    Is Seralini a new Árpád Pusztai?