North Korea Erases Executed Official From the Internet

itwbennett writes "The North Korean state propaganda machine has edited and deleted hundreds of news articles that mention Jang Song Thaek, the former top government and party official and uncle to leader Kim Jong Un, who was executed Thursday. Earlier this week, Jang was arrested in front of hundreds of senior members of the ruling Worker's Party of Korea and denounced for numerous alleged acts against the state and Kim Jong Un. From arrest to trial to death took only four days and the unprecedented fall from grace is widely being interpreted as an attempt by Kim Jong Un to keep officials loyal and scared."

Comments

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[SuricouRaven]

The term 'Orwellian' tends to be overused a bit these days. But, having read 1984, this is something straight out of that book. The adjective is appropriate in this situation: Go ahead and use it.

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[Anonymous Coward]

I am more than certain that not a single soul posting on Slashdot feels the need for anyone, anywhere, especially not one of their own, to give permission to use blatantly inflammatory language to describe anything at all.

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[MightyMartian]

It's the North Korean Happy Fun Time Hour! Be sure to clap for Dear Leader very enthusiastically! Be sure to stay tuned right to the end, when we show all the lucky children of our great country what it looks like when someone is executed by mortar fire. And remember, clap very enthusiastically... or else.

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[Anonymous Coward]

You have been banned from r/pyongyang

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[TapeCutter]

He murdered his uncle for political reasons and doesn't want everyone to know about it, that kind of behaviour predates 1984 by several millennia.

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[phantomfive]

It's the North Korean Happy Fun Time Hour! Be sure to clap for Dear Leader very enthusiastically!

You might be joking, but one of the accused's crimes was, in fact, to not clap enthusiastically enough. It's almost like they are trying to parody themselves.

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[K. S. Kyosuke]

If this were Orwellian, they'd probably say that he never existed. This is more Stalinistic than that, I'd say.

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[kallisti]

In a book on the life of Shostakovich, there was an anecdote about Stalin giving a speech at a farm collective. After he finished, there was a thunderous applause that continued on and on for over half an hour. No one wanted to be known as the first one to stop clapping.

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[Anonymous Coward]

It's the North Korean Happy Fun Time Hour! Be sure to clap for Dear Leader very enthusiastically!

You might be joking, but one of the accused's crimes was, in fact, to not clap enthusiastically enough. It's almost like they are trying to parody themselves.

Who got accused of what? You can't find any evidence of this supposed uncle on reputable web sites. Only tinfoil-hatted conspiracy theorists believe that Kim Jong-Un ever had an uncle!

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[Anonymous Coward]

And what does that have to do with what the GP said?

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[SB9876]

Hell, there's YouTube videos showing this. They had to have a bell ring to let people know it was safe to stop clapping.

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[ttucker]

Just remember that Germany voted for Hitler. History can and does happen again, unless we care to learn from it.

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[Penguinisto]

Funny thing is, the language in this case isn't so much "inflammatory", as much as it is descriptive. See also The Memory Hole.

(I wonder if NoKo actually calls the folks tasked with this job the Korean equivalent of "Ministry of Truth" as well...)

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[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Do they really have enough electricity in North Korea to operate their telescreens?

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[UnknowingFool]

Well if you remember 1984, the main character's job was to re-write history removing individuals from books, news stories, etc.

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[Concerned Onlooker]

Go read the article. That is exactly what they are doing; removing all references to him. Orwellian is the proper descriptor.

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[Anonymous Coward]

He murdered his uncle for political reasons and doesn't want everyone to know about it, that kind of behaviour predates 1984 by several millennia.

I think photoshopping the guy out of pictures, deleting all references to him is what makes it 1984 worthy.

How do you even know he was murdered, given the above?! This is not simply "hiding a murder"...

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[arth1]

He murdered his uncle for political reasons and doesn't want everyone to know about it, that kind of behaviour predates 1984 by several millennia.

This is not insightful. He murdered his uncle and erased him from history, and very much wanted every North Korean politician, military and ambitious individual to know about it. It's a demonstration of utter ruthlessness designed to ensure obedience.

When you work for a man capable of doing that to his own uncle, you tread lightly. And that's what he wants. He knows that you and everybody else knows the charges were false - he wants you to know that. But never say it. And if you're in North Korea, you won't.

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[Anonymous Coward]

If this were Orwellian, they'd probably say that he never existed. This is more Stalinistic than that, I'd say.

They are already photoshopping him out of everything. Do any of you read the damned news?

I can't believe we are debating if this is properly Orwellian enough when '1984' gets casually tossed around when healthcare or anti-money laundering regulations come up.

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[Anonymous Coward]

Um, no. Hitler did not win any election.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_presidential_election,_1932

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[vux984]

He knows that you and everybody else knows the charges were false

I'm with you on everything in your post but this. Were they false?

I don't pretend to be up on North Korean politics, but I recall reading when Kim Jong Un came to power that some of his family members, Aunts and Uncles wielded a lot of power, and that Dear Leader himself had to tread pretty lightly to maintain the balance of power.

It could well be that his Uncle was making a play for power. Or it could be that Kim Jong Un has consolidated enough support for himself that he can openly move against his opponents. Just saying, ... not that I think Kim Jong Un is some 'force for good' in North Korea, but I'm pretty skeptical that his Uncle was innocent of anything.

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[JustOK]

You know who else voted for Hitler?
Hitler!

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[JustOK]

What they don't show is that the bell ringer was shot on the first ring because it was too early. The bell kept ringing because he was...a dead ringer

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[motorhead]

Fixing a glitch

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[dbIII]

Orwell was writing about Stalinism!

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[ackthpt]

The term 'Orwellian' tends to be overused a bit these days. But, having read 1984, this is something straight out of that book. The adjective is appropriate in this situation: Go ahead and use it.

Good old sexiest man in the world was afraid. He doesn't like to be afraid. People go away when he's afraid. It makes him feel better. NK is now safer for Dennis's visit, with this dangerous hooligan removed as well.

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[arth1]

He knows that you and everybody else knows the charges were false

I'm with you on everything in your post but this. Were they false?

Oh, yes, I am pretty sure they were false. And that the uncle was guilty of a great many things, but not those he were charged with.
Kim Jong-Un's point wasn't to get him convicted for things he did - the point was to get him convicted, killed and erased on a whim. For that to be truly effective, Kim would need charges that were blatantly false, and some that weren't even against any laws. Which is exactly what he appears to have done.

It's a truly despicable Machiavellan ploy. The consolation is that few excessively ruthless leaders tend to rule for very long.

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[gtall]

"The consolation is that few excessively ruthless leaders tend to rule for very long.", Ya, I think the calculation of the flunkies runs something like "this guy is a lunatic and I might be next, let's all make him next first."

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[Anonymous Coward]

True, but give him a break. He's also the guy who killed Hitler

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[Anonymous Coward]

Just because he lost that election, doesn't mean he didn't win any at all.

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[Chryana]

As soon as all the corrections which happened to be necessary in any particular number of The Times had been assembled and collated, that number would be reprinted, the original copy destroyed, and the corrected copy placed on the files in its stead. This process of continuous alteration was applied not only to newspapers, but to books, periodicals, pamphlets, posters, leaflets, films, sound-tracks, cartoons, photographs -- to every kind of literature or documentation which might conceivably hold any political or ideological significance. Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date. In this way every prediction made by the Party could be shown by documentary evidence to have been correct, nor was any item of news, or any expression of opinion, which conflicted with the needs of the moment, ever allowed to remain on record. All history was a palimpsest, scraped clean and reinscribed exactly as often as was necessary. In no case would it have been possible, once the deed was done, to prove that any falsification had taken place.

George Orwell, 1984

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[Nimey]

What makes you think that most people who invoke 1984 have even read it?

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[Anonymous Coward]

The term 'Orwellian' tends to be overused a bit these days. But, having read 1984, this is something straight out of that book.

I think the first people (that we know of) to use this practice were the ancient Egyptians. They were more than happy to erase you from everything if they wanted the world to forget you.

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[rtb61]

Basically the typical act of a monarchist. However western press doesn't want to tag it as such because it is all too much of a reminder of who our current monarchical spawn really are and who they descended from.

As for North Korea, the number of recent execution is a sign of extreme paranoia, that either has a basis in reality and Kim Jong Un is likely to become the un-leader or Kim Jung Un is totally nuts and paranoid and to save themselves the ones left standing will turn him into the un-leader. Here's betting Kim Jung UN has a lethal heart attack or stroke in the not too distant future. I'm sure the US, South Korea and Japan will start feeding a tonne of misinformation into that engine of paranoia in order for it too chew itself to pieces.

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[Trepidity]

The consolation is that few excessively ruthless leaders tend to rule for very long.

I guess it depends on your definitions of both "long" and "excessively", but the 20th century had a pretty good number. Stalin might be the best example, in power for around 30 years. And Francisco Franco was in power for nearly 40 years.

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[Anonymous Coward]

Go fuck yourself, little bitch. You don't tell me what I can and can't do. Next time you try that crap, I'll find you, beat the shit out of you and make you watch me sodomize your wife/girlfriend.

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[allcoolnameswheretak]

Or, you could use Damnatio memoriae.

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[Anonymous Coward]

False. Hitler did not win election, he lost in 1932. He was made Chancellor in 1933 by then President Hindenburg as a concession to the Nazi Party which did win some elections to the Reichstag. When Hindenburg died, Hitler was unchallenged and then took complete power.

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[Anonymous Coward]

I read it! And I felt real sorry for that John Hurt guy.

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[Anonymous Coward]

I'll have you know Hitler was a war hero... He killed Hitler!

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[mysidia]

Just remember that Germany voted for Hitler. History can and does happen again, unless we care to learn from it.

And the US voted for Obama.

There is frequently a disconnect between the reason people vote for someone, and what that person actually does once elected.

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[LordLimecat]

Pretty sure the idea for the memory hole came from the soviet purges. See also: Nikolai_Yezhov.

In other words, the communists didnt get the idea from Orwell, Orwell got the idea from the communists.

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[LordLimecat]

That behavior also predates 1984.

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[matfud]

The idea remains the same. The method has changed.

Now you ensure that there is so much information out there that nobody can be bothered to trawl through it. Even if people do then their findings will mostly be ignored.

The great part is that you (as the perpitrator) don't have to do much at all. Just let the pundits run with it.

In a few years you will have people stareing at pictures claiming the man did exist and many others claiming he did not and his existance was a consipracy (or some odd opinions inbetween)

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[AK Marc]

The Soviet paper was called The Truth, so there is precedent.

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[formfeed]

[...] I recall reading when Kim Jong Un came to power that some of his family members, Aunts and Uncles wielded a lot of power, and that Dear Leader himself had to tread pretty lightly to maintain the balance of power.

It could well be that his Uncle was making a play for power. [..]

One possibility.

The other possibility:
Dear Leader had finally enough power not to listen to his uncle anymore. And his economically more experienced uncle might have told him that some of his new power moves are contra-productive. Like taking South Korean workers hostage and ruining future chances of needed cash flow.
- I imagine that disrespectful uncle might have said things like: "You know, some of the stuff you're doing is pretty dumb, even for North Korean standards." And Dear leader might have responded: "Oh uh, insurection!"

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[DigiShaman]

Fidel Castro, and Pol Pot to name a few extra.

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[Anonymous Coward]

The bell kept ringing because he was...a dead ringer

In Soviet Russia, the bell rings you!

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[CodeBuster]

He murdered his uncle for political reasons and doesn't want everyone to know about it

That's not the official line, but unofficially you'd better believe that he wants everyone to know it. This is young Kim saying to other high level elites, "Don't even think about trying to stage a coup to overthrow me because if I'm willing to kill a family member to make a point, just imagine what I'll do to you." A bit crude and heavy handed perhaps, but effective none the less.

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[PNutts]

Generallissimo Francisco Franco is still dead.

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[Anonymous Coward]

not that I think Kim Jong Un is some 'force for good' in North Korea, but I'm pretty skeptical that his Uncle was innocent of anything.

Actually they're all criminals with blood on their hands and now Kim is just as bloody as any of them. These guys are using the resources of their state to export refined heroin and methamphetamine along with armaments and counterfeit US currency. The camps in the northern part of the country equal or exceed the worst of the worst from Stalin's gulags or Hitler's concentration camps, they only difference being the smaller scale. These North Korean ruling elites are bad people, all of them, and we shouldn't hesitate to call them out publicly for their atrocious behavior.

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[Anonymous Coward]

... When Hindenburg died, Hitler was unchallenged and then took complete power.

A bit of an understatement. When Hindenburg was personally killed by Hitler with piano wire for being a traitor, he definitely was unchallenged.

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[drkim]

He murdered his uncle for political reasons...

...but - tell the truth - around the holidays, haven't you ever felt like killing someone in your family?

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[Anonymous Coward]

Jang Sung-Taek was running the show from behind the scenes since Kim Jong-Il fell ill, up until fairly recently. I suspect this is more about dear leader's dear auntie consolidating her influence and power, and less about Kim Jong-Un actually having power. The guy essentially usurped power at the first opportunity, it was only a matter of time until Auntie got rid of him.

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[ttucker]

No, he did not win, but you have mistakenly stumbled upon the point. Do you see anything disturbing about the fact that he had 36% of the vote?

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[Tough Love]

The Romans called it damnatio memoriae.

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[reboot246]

The sad thing is that we have too many politicians in this country who see Kim Jong Un as a role model and the Korean system as the ideal form of government. Even more tragic is that too many of the lazy, ignorant American people would probably vote for such a tyrant thinking that they would be given anything they want from a strong centralized government.

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[Anonymous Coward]

Nyet, in Soviet Russia, bell asks you for whom it tolls.

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[Anonymous Coward]

Russians 'darkroomshopped' people out of photos for decades. They started decades before 1949, when "Nineteen eighty-four" was first published.

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[Anonymous Coward]

There's only one 'L' in generalíssimo.

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[Megol]

And that isn't something new - the first example that comes to mind is the systematic removal of Pharaoh Akhenatons name after his death. The only difference is that nowadays there are photos and videos to edit too.

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[Trepidity]

Pol Pot really only controlled Cambodia for about 4 years, though, not a particularly lengthy reign. The rest of the time he was head of the Khmer Rouge, before 1975 and after 1979, they were a guerrilla group not actually in control of the country.

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[Megol]

The third very likely possibility: Kim Jong Un is just the figure head of the state due to his lineage from his godlike predecessors without any real power.

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[BigFire]

As Christopher Hitchen once said, it is as if someone in North Korea have thought 1984 is a good template on how to run a country and give it a good college try.

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[Anonymous Coward]

The term 'Orwellian' tends to be overused a bit these days. But, having read 1984, this is something straight out of that book. The adjective is appropriate in this situation: Go ahead and use it.

This is a great article to sit down and remind everyone that the USA is not an Orwellian society.

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[Anonymous Coward]

citations, please.

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[Anonymous Coward]

Yes but in Stalin's case he was in power for 30 years before somebody got around to poisoning him.

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[mjwalshe]

helped by the Nazi controlled police arresting or in some cases killing opposition MP's

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[Anonymous Coward]

There is frequently a disconnect between the reason people vote for someone, and what that person actually does once elected.

Not so much in the case of Hitler. He wanted to make Germany big again - by expansion. He would provide "Lebensraum" in "new territories" and get rid of the jews. Nazi bullies were beating up jews long before they got real power. You could perhaps not infer the holocaust at the time - but there were no doubt what kind of people the Nazis were. No doubt that war was necessary to grab the new territories. Those voting for Hitler hoped to win that war, of course. Hitler then went and disappointed them. They were not disappointed in 1941 though . . .

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[MacDork]

What makes you think we haven't read it? It's been a few years since I last read it. 1984 is free online.

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[Anonymous Coward]

Da, in Soviet Russia, Liberty Bell visits you

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[Gavagai80]

The Nazi party won the most seats of any party in the reichstag in consecutive elections. Never a majority, but that's still winning the right to be chancellor, which was a more important position than president.

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[stoatwblr]

"The purpose of a president is not to wield power, but to distract attention from those who do"

When you realise that Dear Uncle was the guy who took down the general who started shelling South Korean islands last year (and a number of the general's body guards were killed in the takedown) and that the general in question was part of the (still powerful) Old Guard, then you realise that the figurehead supposition has legs.

It's also worth bearing in mind that Kim Jong Fatboy is only the corporeal leader. His grandfather is still officially in charge and we all know what happens when people in power claim to be channelling non-corporeal beings.

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[BasilBrush]

Um, no. Hitler did not win any election.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_presidential_election,_1932

That's an odd claim, given that he won this one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_federal_election,_March_1933

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[Anonymous Coward]

sounds logical, but HOW do you know this to be true, rather than just your assumption based on..?

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[Nimey]

On the other hand, he killed the guy who killed Hitler.

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[noh8rz10]

so, chancellor is like speaker of the house?

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[Anonymous Coward]

It's almost like they are trying to parody themselves.

Its exactly a parody of China hardliners hidden behind a wall of a middle finger puppet state, extending it straight up and out to the world while they are bowing gracefully to everyone, and investing our poorly spent gadzillion Walmart dollars into the next act.

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[Anonymous Coward]

A lot of people have read it. It's assigned reading in many if not most high schools, at least here in the US.

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[sysrammer]

Excellent point. The Romans did this kind of thing, too. For example, Sulla did this with Gaius Marius.

My original thought was that any despotic system with one person having absolute power tends to produce these types of results. Then I remembered that Marius was during the Roman Republic.

So I revised my thought to: This is what humans do on occasion.

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[sysrammer]

+1 for SNL reference.

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[Anonymous Coward]

All autocratic dictatorships are by definition parodies of themselves. Look at medieval England, and utter bags of flaming douche like KH8. "What? A GIRL!?!? OFF WITH HER HEAD! I'll just find me another queen, who will do her job of giving me a SON or I'll kill her too!"

He was a joke, as they all are. Sadly, those of us in countries that are supposed to be governed by the people aren't doing much better. In this country we pat ourselves on the back for having abolished slavery, while it's still alive and well in subtly different form. As a nation we watched Lincoln, and found ourselves nodding that the 13th amendment was the right thing to do, and watched in awe and disgust at Tommy Lee Jones' character's insistence that he doesn't hold with equality in all things, only with equality before the law, then five minutes later, walking out of the theaters, people re-emerged into an America where we still deny civil rights to large groups of people based upon the belief that they are not equal to us, and therefor should not have the same rights, like:

- Immigrants from other countries
    (which is ironic considering we are ALL either immigrants or the children of immigrants,)
- Women
    (which is ironic considering we are ALL either women or we came from women, or both,)
- Homosexuals
    (which is ironic because if anyone knows anything about weddings...)

We have a society that pretends to be much more evolved and advanced than pathetic, backwards North Korea, but really all we are is better at hiding things. There, they seem to suck at it, or maybe it just seems they do because we're outside the wall. It could well be that the Worker's Party KNOWS the people will realize that Dear Leader's uncle has mysteriously disappeared from photos, and is basically inviting everyone in NK to make the mistake of being seen to notice it.

In the US, they are, we have recently learned, just as big a bunch of control freaks, but they're more selective about what they do, and sneakier about how they do it. Just a couple years ago, you might have suspected the government was listening in on everything you did, and tracking your every move, but anyone you mentioned it to would call you a paranoid schizophrenic. Now you KNOW this to be the case, and all anyone will say about you now is that you read the news!

But will anything change here, in the West or in North Korea? Probably not. There seems to be a certain inertia. I'm shocked though, at how good they have apparently gotten with Photoshop. I thought they were largely still stuck in the neolithic era as far as technology was concerned; it appears my source for that information may have been lying or simply mistaken. :/

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[Optali]

I have an Orwellian hangover mate!!!

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[Anonymous Coward]

Not only this uncle exists, and was the second person most powerful in the North Korean regime...

His wife is the first generation aunt to Jong Un... this auntie is the blood daughter of the great Kim...

Although the uncle got executed, but nobody dared to touch his wife... simply because she's the great Kim's daughter.

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[Mabhatter]

the point is that it DOESN'T MATTER what the charges were. we executed somebody for "disloyalty".. don't let you be next.

The problem is that it only works for so long. You can only grab and execute random members of your staff so many times. They begin lying about each other first, then a few people have enough lies going their way to take you out while your "closest staff" steps aside while they depose you. Just like Julius Caesar, the first knife comes from the person you trusted most.. because they gotta save THEMSELVES from you.

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[gmueckl]

No, its the head of the executive branch similar to the US President or UK Prime Minister. Chancellor is just a German name for that position.

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[noh8rz10]

then what does the president do?

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[gmueckl]

He is the head of the state. Similar separations of offices exist in other countries. The Weimar constitution did give the President a lot of powers, for instance, to declare a state of emergency and to take any emergency measures he deems necessary. This was a loophole that was exploited by Hitler.

The successor of the that constitution removed almost all remaining powers from the President. This is a mostly representative role these days with very little freedom for making decisions. Most of his tasks (appointing the Chancellor and Ministers, signing laws etc.) are strictly mandated by the constitution. The only exception I know is that he may call the "Bundesverfassungsgericht" (special court ruling on matters related to the constitution) before signing a law if there are serious doubts about the law being in accordance with the constitution.

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[noh8rz10]

if he can appoint the chancellor, that seems like a big effing deal. and if he's directly elected by the citizens then it is important as well.

Happy Friday from the DPRK!

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you for being a friend
Traveled down the road and back again
Your heart is true, you're a pal and a cosmonaut.

And if you threw a party
Invited everyone you knew
You would see the biggest gift would be from me
And the card attached would say, thank you for being a friend.

Obummer's exit plan

[Anonymous Coward]

How soon before Obummer follows lead declaring himself supreme leader and executing his political competition?

Re:Obummer's exit plan

[MightyMartian]

How soon before what's left of your pathetic, useless brain leaks out the one nostril you don't pick?

Re:Obummer's exit plan

[Beavertank]

I'll take "never", for that one. Outside of diseased minds and idiot trolls, no one actually thinks that's a legitimate possibility let alone likely outcome.

Re:Obummer's exit plan

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

Thank you for being a friend, Obummer the slop jockey with a finger up his nose!

I'm learning! Look ma!

Re:Obummer's exit plan

[MightyMartian]

There are a lot of diseased minds among Tea Party and Libertarian types.

Re:Obummer's exit plan

[Anonymous Coward]

Like how Obummer was gonna end the warrantless NSA spying until he became president and then gave the telecoms immunity and continued to expand the mass surveillance?

Sorry, I don't trust known lying criminals.

Re:Obummer's exit plan

[qbzzt]

Considering that the basic prerequisite for overthrowing the Republic is to gain the personal loyalty of the military (and preferably the veterans, especially in places like the US where they are armed), I'd say either "never" or "when he feels like committing suicide". The US military oath is to obey the constitution first. A president who declared himself supreme leader would suffer from a case of high velocity lead poisoning very quickly.

Re:Obummer's exit plan

[Anonymous Coward]

The US military oath is to obey the constitution first.

So is the oath of all public officials. What's your point?

A president who declared himself supreme leader would suffer from a case of high velocity lead poisoning very quickly.

No, most of you Internet tough guys would be cowering in your homes.

Re:Obummer's exit plan

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll take "never", for that one. Outside of diseased minds and idiot trolls, no one actually thinks that's a legitimate possibility let alone likely outcome.

Can you say "extrajudicial killings of US citizens"?

Re:Obummer's exit plan

[JDAustin]

I suggest you look into how many top officers (colonel or higher) have been purged for the military in the past 5 years. To start with, look at who's been purged as a result of Benghazi (hint, it's not the people who screwed up, but the people who wanted to rescue our personnel).

Re:Obummer's exit plan

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't be silly. Those are just imaginary things you silly "idiot troll". Just like his massive expansion of domestic surveillance. Obummer is simply bringing us hope and change. Don't make us send a drone at you for questioning Dear Leader.

Re:Obummer's exit plan

[Ralph Wiggam]

Senator Obama voted for warrantless NSA spying 4 months before he was elected President. Try paying attention some time.

Re:Obummer's exit plan

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope, it seems to be that you weren't the one paying attention. He was making campaign promises in 2008 to end the warrantless wiretaps. One of his spokesmen in 2007 even claimed he would filibuster any act that would provide the telecoms with immunity.

In October 2007, Obama spokesman Bill Burton issued this unequivocal statement to the liberal blog TPM Election Central: "To be clear: Barack will support a filibuster of any bill that includes retroactive immunity for telecommunications companies."

That is until he got into office and signed the law himself.

Re: Obummer's exit plan

[qbzzt]

The issue isn't the senior officers. It is the rank and file whose loyalty is required to overthrow the constitution.

Re:Obummer's exit plan

[Ralph Wiggam]

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FISA_Amendments_Act_of_2008

Re:Obummer's exit plan

[Anonymous Coward]

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

And yet I have citations backing me up where he made campaign promises to end the wiretapping and statements from his own spokesman talking about how he would support filibustering the immunity. I think I very much do know what I'm talking about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FISA_Amendments_Act_of_2008

And? Check the official vote rolls. He didn't vote for it. His name isn't even in the list. Want to try again?

Re:Obummer's exit plan

[couchslug]

You modern right-wingers collectively can't muster the balls of Timothy McVeigh (who failed to kickstart anything because the rest of you are gutless) so all you do is snivel on the internet, forward Faux News articles, and grumble like a bunch of blue-haired biddies in your little circle jerk of mutual affirmation.

You don't do shit, so quit bitching. You rant about the "Greatest Generation" but you aren't a bump on their collective posterior.

YOUR GOPs relentless incompetence and pathetic candidates are why Obama (who I also dislike) is in office in the first place! YOU got him elected twice.

The refusal of modern so-called "conservatism" to do anything other than preach like the White Trash Christian Taliban you are at heart while gargling the balls of rich people who wouldn't be caught dead with you is a disgrace.

Re:Obummer's exit plan

[Jack9]

> And? Check the official vote rolls [senate.gov]. He didn't vote for it. His name isn't even in the list. Want to try again?

Please try to get the facts correct.

The FISA Amendments Act of 2008 (also called the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 Amendments Act of 2008, H.R. 6304

The roll call is here:
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=2&vote=00168 (vote 168 not 236 which you linked to)

His name is on that list from 2008. You linked to the extension vote in 2012...of course his name isn't on it as a voting SENATOR.
Obama's the PRESIDENT at that time.

Re:Obummer's exit plan

[Oligonicella]

Fuck you, fuck you twice. I no of no one who thinks that's a realistic possibility. Do no project your demented idea of what others are like upon them.

Re: Obummer's exit plan

[gagol]

The only reason the constitution gets violated so much today, is because the american people are lazy ass bastards thet prefer to take care of themselves instead of fighting for the common good. This applies to most countries tough, including mine.

Re:Obummer's exit plan

[DigiShaman]

Say what you will of the GOP. But I find it especially revealing how it's the right wings fault for not convincing/educating the unwashed masses to not vote for Obama. And you would be correct. We did failed to stop ignorance.

Evil prevails when good men do nothing. -Edmund Burke

Re:Obummer's exit plan

[DNS-and-BIND]

LOL. "Gutless" conservatives? The moment that conservatives actually did something the media would be all over them like stink on shit, telling the world that they're terrorists no better than McVeigh. You remember McVeigh? Executed.

It is rather telling that you think that a terror campaign would be a good choice for the Right...you must know something they don't. I also like the "white trash" bigoted comment, shows your true colors. Stay classy!

Re:Obummer's exit plan

[phantomfive]

To be clear

"To be clear" seems to be Obama's way of saying, "I am about to be unclear."

Re:Obummer's exit plan

[xyzzymage]

The reason Obama won each time wasn't because an insufficient number of people didn't trust/like him -- it's the "lesser evil"voting method at work. It's a lot like the old joke about being in a crowd chased by a monster:the folks that survive aren't all the fastest, they're simply not the slowest.

In 2008, the Democratic Party was dangerously split by hostility between Obama's & Clinton's fans, and the Left was further fractured by the voters angry over Democrat politicians not living up to their pledge to change things. The GOPlost that time because of the damage Bush/Cheney had caused and because the GOP's candidates were literally considered laughably awful.

In 2012, Left-leaning voters were extremely angry over the performance both Obama *and*the other Democrats had given over the previous four years. There was a very real chance that the Democrats were going to lose...but because the Right-Wing politicians had managed to make their side look like it would've probably caused even more damage, the GOP once again lost.

That's the reason that the guy you're responding to blamed the GOP for putting Obama in power -- it could've convinced any number of people that the guy wasn't a great candidate, but it *couldn't* convince them that its own candidates weren't worse in one way or another. It's something to keep in mind in the near future, too; 2016 will be here before we know it...

Re: Obummer's exit plan

[DigiShaman]

You're reading way too much into it. Look, it's real simple this time. Obama won on "like-ability", not capability.

Read up on the JFK / Nixon debate of 1960. Those that heard it on the radio thought Nixon was the better candidate on ideas alone. Yet those that watched it on TV hands down thought JFK won. JFK looked handsome and sat with a calm confident posture. Nixon was recovering from previous hospitalization. Proof that image is everything in an election!

Re:Obummer's exit plan

[Howitzer86]

It's either, "lesser evil", or "the devil we know." People were fearful of Romney because they didn't know him. Their ignorance allowed them to assume the worst based on his wealth, no-context statements, and political talking points. And of course he's a Republican who designed something very similar to the Affordable Care Act. That's a double strike. Democrats couldn't vote for him because he was too easy to illustrate as a wealthy Republican cartoon character, and Republicans couldn't vote for him because he did the same thing Obama did. Never-mind what was written by the Heritage Foundation in the 90s, now anything similar to the ACA is radioactive.

I voted for Romney, but it was a hard vote. I didn't like either option, but fear was enough for me to break my promise to vote third party. These days I recognize that it doesn't matter who the President is. Politicians spend all their lives making themselves look good by publicly saying and doing whatever it is the people like, then when they're elected to the top-office, they do whatever they want. It happens repeatedly and everywhere. When it comes to elections, the votes that really matter are for your Representatives and Senators... but for how long is anybodies guess, since they're losing power and legitimacy.

In 2016 Hillary Clinton will be elected. The whole Benghazi thing has successfully been illustrated as a tin-foil hat conspiracy thing. The official line that there was nothing anybody could do, not the Marines, and much less our top diplomat, is the line that has won out. No candidate stands a chance against a Clinton. As president what she'd do is anyone's guess, though I would hope that we don't have a rubber-stamp legislative and judicial branch by that time.

Re: Obummer's exit plan

[DigiShaman]

Read up on Luntz's Dunces back in fall 2012 and pair that up with the GALLUP numbers at the time. Almost split in difference, most people had already made up their mind. However a massive double-digit of independent voters were rocking back and forth right up to election. A wild card.

Let's focus on that last group for a moment. What Luntz showed on TV was that the independent voter was making decisions based on feelings, not facts. Their options swayed back and forth like seaweed in shallow ocean waters. Back and forth, back and forth. For this very large representative group, it was driven purely on emotion.

So basically the decision was largely on tribalism and emotion. Competency was way at the bottom of the list for most Americans.

Re:Obummer's exit plan

[couchslug]

Notice that there were no more Wacos or Ruby Ridges after OK City? Sometimes force works. "Class" is bullshit when class doesn't succeed.

Of course mainly what I'm getting at is the all talk and zero action aspect of modern conservatards.

The lefty kids in the 1960s who had the balls to protest even when that ensured they'd be teargassed and beaten had the guts to keep doing it. The anti-WTO folks still do, but I don't see shit from the old Rightist gummers. The talk doesn't match the action!

If you SAY that Obama is the Antichrist and the end of the Republic then FAIL to act, that makes you a hypocrite.

Arrest To Death in 4 Days for J.S. Thaek

[rmdingler]

They exercised his right to a speedy trial all right.

Re:Arrest To Death in 4 Days for J.S. Thaek

[bob_super]

The moment guilt is obvious, what's the point of spending 15 years on death row and cost millions in tax dollars?

Re:Arrest To Death in 4 Days for J.S. Thaek

[turgid]

I'm sure if they'd kept him alive a few days longer, they could have thought of even more guilt for him to have. It all sounds a bit amateurish to me.

Re:Arrest To Death in 4 Days for J.S. Thaek

[Beavertank]

Due process, for one. And the fact that guilt is rarely obvious enough to justify a lightning quick death.

Re:Arrest To Death in 4 Days for J.S. Thaek

[MightyMartian]

Even cheaper and faster, you don't have to wait for guilt to be obvious... or true.

Re:Arrest To Death in 4 Days for J.S. Thaek

[MightyMartian]

Relax. This is a dictatorship. They can keep convicting of crimes and adding more death sentences until the Sun burns out.

Re:Arrest To Death in 4 Days for J.S. Thaek

[Jeremi]

The moment guilt is obvious, what's the point of spending 15 years on death row and cost millions in tax dollars?

I won't comment on North Korea, but in the USA there have been at least 311 cases where "guilt was obvious" but in fact the person had not committed the crime they were convicted of.

If you're willing to accept that your proposal would cause the state-sponsored killing of hundreds of innocent people, okay, but you should say so explicitly.

Re:Arrest To Death in 4 Days for J.S. Thaek

[Pseudonym Authority]

The crime was probably pissing off King Fatass. In that case, guilt would be pretty obvious.

Re:Arrest To Death in 4 Days for J.S. Thaek

[Desler]

Because there are numerous cases of people being wrongfully convicted and/or executed despite everything thinking their guilt was obvious?

Re:Arrest To Death in 4 Days for J.S. Thaek

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

The people advocating such schemes tend not to be 'willing to accept' so much as 'overtly gleeful about' a bit of the old collateral damage, so long as it isn't real people or anything.

Re:Arrest To Death in 4 Days for J.S. Thaek

[bob_super]

I guess my sarcasm didn't show. I should have put "obvious" between quotes. We are talking about a son and grandson of dictators.

I am actually against both the death penalty and life without parole, but I do recognize that in the rare exceptions of some truly over-the-top crimes where the defendant is very proud of his guilt, it should be both available and a whole lot quicker.
A lot of the innocence project's work was on crimes where I do believe the death penalty should be applicable. The US system is broken. There's a reason why so many states have banned the death penalty.

Re:Arrest To Death in 4 Days for J.S. Thaek

[Trax3001BBS]

They exercised his right to a speedy trial all right.

A good thing here. You can bet he didn't have a friend in the world those last 4 days.

Re:Arrest To Death in 4 Days for J.S. Thaek

[gagol]

You vastly underestimate the value of propaganda : "NO ONE is untouchable, I rule and you collectively suck it" PR was invented by the nephew of Sigmund Freud (Edward Brenaise?) for the profit of american industrialists following the first world war. Hitler was inspired by it. In north america it is as prevalent as anywhere else, just better managed by a couple magnitude.

Re:Arrest To Death in 4 Days for J.S. Thaek

[Anonymous Coward]

If death was quick and certain, maybe less people would be put to death, because no one wants to take the responsibility of putting the wrong man to death.
Now people can rot in jail for 25 years, so if he was not actually guilty then he can get out, eventually.

Maybe the judge/lawyers/jury should pay for the crime of putting an innocent to death.

Re:Arrest To Death in 4 Days for J.S. Thaek

[Anonymous Coward]

It's too bad murders in the USA are locked up for 40 or 50 years.

Re:Arrest To Death in 4 Days for J.S. Thaek

[zsau]

If you're capable of keeping someone alive and everyone else safe for fifteen years on death row, why bother killing them *then*? You've demonstrated they're no threat to anyone else for that time.

WTF

[Anonymous Coward]

Dammit, who is the slop jockey who changed the damn Slashdot layout to this steaming turd?

House of Cards

[Anonymous Coward]

It sucks to be anyone in North Korea, even Kim Jong Un. This is a man who has to kill people every once in a while to make sure people know who's in charge.

Re:House of Cards

[MightyMartian]

Yes, my heart goes out for Kim Jong Un, truly a victim of circumstance...

Re: House of Cards

[Anonymous Coward]

Only one man dared to stand up to Kim Yong-Fam: Hans Motherfuckin Brix!

Re:House of Cards

[bondsbw]

Maybe if he killed himself, everyone would win.

Re:House of Cards

[Anonymous Coward]

Because the resulting power vacuum, internal power struggle, and probable civil war would definitely be a win for everyone involved.

Re:House of Cards

[TheloniousToady]

Yes, this execution evidences some element of fear. Though we don't need to feel sorry for Kim Jong Un, I wouldn't want to be in his shoes. Dictators rarely die of natural causes.

Re:House of Cards

[real gumby]

Dictators rarely die of natural causes

His father and grandfather died in the saddle of natural causes.

And actually, unfortunately, plenty of others do too, e.g. Franco, Salazar, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot... And if you include the ones ousted but not killed (e.g. Duvalier, Amin, Pinochet) the list gets even longer.

(not killing dictators is actually important because if killing them is the only way to get rid of them they will hold on more tightly. The means of bribing them by letting them keep some ill-gotten gains is justified by the ends).

Re:House of Cards

[TheloniousToady]

You seem to be keeping score better than I have; perhaps I overstated it by saying "rarely". However, I tend to think more of such notables as Hitler, Mussolini, Ceauescu, Saddam Hussein, and Gaddafi, who all died untimely deaths from the hazards of the job. (And they never even lived to get workman's comp for their trouble.)

Generally speaking, one seems to stand a better chance if one doesn't invade other countries, which is a mistake several of the preceding made - and which the most longstanding dictator of modern times, Castro, notably hasn't made. The Kims also seem to have used this technique to their advantage - maybe with a pinch of missiles and nuclear weapons thown in. The latter is largely an unproven technique, though it arguably worked for Stalin.

Regardless, I still don't like the odds. So, I shall not seek, and I will not accept, the nomination of The Party for another term as your dictator.

Re:House of Cards

[real gumby]

You seem to be keeping score better than I have

Well, everyone needs a hobby. My other is the Missing Children -- I have quite a collection!

Re:House of Cards

[gagol]

Suicide by firing squad, real classy.

Re:House of Cards

[gagol]

You know what, a citizen from Quebec got bared from travel for a more frivolous tweet than your post. I respect your courage. Mike (talking to my NSA friend here) you are invited for dinner next Saturday in my country house. You know how to contact me.

Re:House of Cards

[subreality]

not killing dictators is actually important because if killing them is the only way to get rid of them they will hold on more tightly. The means of bribing them by letting them keep some ill-gotten gains is justified by the ends

Putting aside the moral argument, I disagree with the practical effect. Providing a way out might encourage the current tyrant to retire peacefully, but it also makes the position more appealing to the next ten guys who want to take his place.

Re:House of Cards

[rmdingler]

If I have to remind you again to use my alias, I will be forced to thaek your life. Sincerely yours, Mike.

Re:House of Cards

[Anonymous Coward]

Salazar wasn't really in charge of anything by the time he died (even though he may have thought he was still the big cheese).

Marcello Caetano was in charge of Portugal by the time of the old man's death.

Re:House of Cards

[mrchaotica]

Kim Jong Un grew up in fucking Switzerland. If he wanted out, he had his chance to get out.

Re:House of Cards

[TheloniousToady]

Sometimes people make bad decisions. Even dictators.

First

[Anonymous Coward]

[Comment redacted]

History repeating itself?

[aphelion_rock]

"is widely being interpreted as an attempt by Kim Jong Un to keep officials loyal and scared."

Sounds like Stalin all over again....

"The purge was motivated by the desire to remove dissenters from the Communist Party and to consolidate the authority of Joseph Stalin. " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge

Re:History repeating itself?

[Beavertank]

Well, the USSR was also an authoritarian state whose leaders remained in power through a combination of fear and enforced ignorance among the population, so it shouldn't be too surprising that another state run in much the same way follows a similar trend. Especially since North Korea is like the USSR on steroids in that respect.

Re:History repeating itself?

[Anonymous Coward]

Especially since North Korea is like the USSR on steroids

N. Korea would have to kill most of it's population just to match the Soviet Union, never mind surpass it. During '37 and '38, according to their own archives, the NKVD executed an average of 1000 people a day; 600k in two years. They were the original photoshoppers.

So don't exaggerate the atrocities of N. Korea. They're lightweights.

Re:History repeating itself?

[Ralph Wiggam]

And considering that Kim Il Sung was installed into power by Joseph Stalin, it is even less surprising.

Re:History repeating itself?

[mbkennel]

Like the USSR on steroids? More like the USSR on adulterated PCP.

The USSR sort of worked and had excellent physical science.

Re:History repeating itself?

[dido]

Stalin did exactly the same thing to Commisar Nikolai Yezhov after his fall from grace. They purged him from all official records and even went as far as photoshopping (much harder before digital photography) pictures of Stalin and Yezhov so that the latter disappeared.

Re:History repeating itself?

[Anonymous Coward]

You need to read up on history. North Korea is USSR on mild sedatives.

Re:History repeating itself?

[Anonymous Coward]

I was watching the BBC channel tonight where they showed side by side state videos with the uncle already photoshopped out. That's a pretty good advance warning they must have had.

Re:History repeating itself?

[JimCanuck]

Kinda like how Syngman Rhee was installed into power by the Americans? Who ended up killing a few hundred thousand Koreans before the Korean War broke out to solidify his power base as well?

Re:History repeating itself?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, the USSR was also an authoritarian state whose leaders remained in power through a combination of fear and enforced ignorance among the population

I hope you do realize that when you replace USSR by USA that above line is also quite applicable ?

"Think of the children" and "Oh no, the terrorrists" (the latest fads) combined with overzealous appliance of lawfull(?) force for the "fear" part, and the likes of the NSA, but also secretive talks and agreements of the gouverment which the citizens do not need to know anything about for the "ignorance" part.

So, don't point to someone or thing far away. The belly of the beast is often quite a bit closer than you want to believe/are kept in the dark of.

Slashdot isn't the Internet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh... Slashdot is on the Internet last time I checked, and this article RIGHT HERE mentions Jang Song Thaek, so I'm pretty sure he was not "erased from the Internet".

Re:Slashdot isn't the Internet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot is on the Internet last time I checked, and this article RIGHT HERE mentions Jang Song Thaek

No it doesn't.

Re:Slashdot isn't the Internet?

[Riddler Sensei]

All internet that they have control over. Don't be obtuse.

Re:Slashdot isn't the Internet?

[gagol]

The OP is technically and historically relevant. just because something is banned in a localized region does not mean (anymore) that they are erased from history. Just like secret wars of the US are secrets only the its citizens, the truth exist somewhere out there.

agreed

[Anonymous Coward]

it sucks the sweat off a dead man's balls.

Re:agreed

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know what that means, but it sounds very negative.

obligatory statement to the NK noobs

[themushroom]

"That's not how the Internet works."

Oh sure, the locals (not having ample Internet, and being fed the story by speakers across the countryside) might think his uncle that taught him his tricks was a traitor scumdog etcetera because that's the story Kim Jong-Un has concocted recently, but the rest of the world hasn't lost their copies of the newspaper, the stories that are on the websites, and other proofs of concept that Photoshop or a text editor aren't going to negate from the other 99% of the world's media.

Welcome to the UK...

[Anonymous Coward]

Welcome to the UK... several hundred years ago. I'm Henry the VIIIth I am, Henry the VIIIth I am, I am...

giving new meaning to the phrase

[themushroom]

"You have disappointed me. From hereon: You're dead to me."

Re:giving new meaning to the phrase

[newcastlejon]

Jang: That's all well and good, but do I really have to be dead to everyone else?!

News?

[Anonymous Coward]

How is this news, again? I thought that was standard operating procedure in North Korea for the past few decades...

Re:News?

[maxwell demon]

The news is that North Korea has an internet from which it can erase that information.

Re:News?

[MightyMartian]

My understanding is that the chief difference here is how publicly Jang Song Thaek was purged. He was a member (by marriage) of the Kim family itself, and the Kims have always been somewhat cautious on state media services not to impugn any of the Kims, because it risks undermining the notion that they are the rightful rulers of North Korea. Under normal circumstances it seems more likely that he would disappear; and apparently he has been sent packing a couple of times before, only to return.

My reading of what the analysts think is that Jang Song Thaek either got to uppity (he seems to have been Kim Jong Un's mentor during the early days of his reign), or possibly was attempting some sort coup or at least end run around Kim Jong Un, and was likely not alone. Other officials have apparently disappeared as well, and this is as clear a message to any of Jang Song Thaek's as-yet undiscovered sympathizers or allies that Kim Jong Un is in charge, has the loyalty of the military, and no one, not even those in the DPRK's inner ruling circle, is immune.

Captain Jean Luc Picard of the USS Fabulous.

[Anonymous Coward]

http://imgur.com/gallery/1tBxe

Re:Captain Jean Luc Picard of the USS Fabulous.

[Anonymous Coward]

Piss OFF loser!!

Re: Word unlocked

[Anonymous Coward]

In china, they have whole departments for the social networks to delete posts containing certain phrases. Like entire buildings full of people monitoring what they are saying, and deciphering codes just so they can control what people talk about.

Literally deleted within 15 minutes.

This begs the question:

[Anonymous Coward]

Why are millions of people afraid of a 3 foot tall man with the motor skills and mind set of an obese infant? Why doesn't someone karate chop his goofy ass out of the country?

Re:This begs the question:

[Anonymous Coward]

They don't have any oil.

Remembers me of the movie The Dictator

[Anonymous Coward]

... I bet none of them are killed. Maybe they sit all together in an restaurant in USA eating some Chinese food.

Re:Remembers me of the movie The Dictator

[gagol]

I bet 20$ the uncle was not present at said celebrations.

How many Humans did Obama murder today?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, the owners of Slashdot doing their daily patriotic duty, promoting NON-TECHNICAL stories on a so-called nerd site, if in doing so they push warmongering propaganda against North Korea, China, Russia, Iran or Syria, or propaganda designed to make the sheeple think Israel or its political ally, Saudi Arabia, are wonderful nations.

Meanwhile, one can watch online videos proving that the recent massacre at a Yemeni hospital was carried out be special forces, NOT terrorists, which when combined with Obama's murder of an entire group of wedding travellers yesterday in Yemen leave us in no doubt that the USA ordered both acts as a specific part of their 'strategy of tension' operations in Yemen- designed to create the same horrific circumstances currently seen in Syria.

Obama not only mass murders civilians across the globe, he actually boasts about his "taste for murder" at political gatherings with his allies. So tell me again why you allow the owners of Slashdot to force you to notice the speck of sawdust in the eye of another, while ignoring the plank in your own eye?

Stalin?

[SuperCharlie]

I think it was Stalin who erased people from existence. paintings, books, tax roles, every mention in every place. Very thorough, and very very paranoid.

Just like the Republicans are doing here

[Anonymous Coward]

So many people disappear and are never heard from again. Only a few get media coverage.

Hong Kong Phooey

[themushroom]

Why doesn't someone karate chop his goofy ass out of the country?

That may have been what his uncle was trying to do.

Jang Song Strisand?

[Kaenneth]

I never heard of him before this article; now he's indelible.

Didn't they miss the point

[Anonymous Coward]

If you are going to use him as an example, you can't go and delete all references to him. Then no one will be scared of the consequences that befell him. Because they can't find out.

Re:Didn't they miss the point

[Anonymous Coward]

If you are going to use him as an example, you can't go and delete all references to him. Then no one will be scared of the consequences that befell him. Because they can't find out.

Nork apparatchiks know.

what steroids do to 'the little man'

[themushroom]

More like a banana republic with nukes than the USSR, but we can presume Kim has taken some historical tips.

"Thaek, I find your lack of faith disturbing."

[rmdingler]

" I will erase even the memory of Thaek from the histories..." Anakin, Xerxes, Is there no quotable threshold this 'Un won't breech?

Same difference.

[Anonymous Coward]

West: media conglomerate exercise its "property right" to amend or remove articles;

NK: state-owned media corporation exercises its "property right" to amend or remove articles.

Hell, Britain's Conservative Party recently erased a decade's worth of articles and speeches full of broken Party promises, then set robots.txt so it'd be wiped from archive.org.

And, yeah, summary executions suck. I mean I just about prefer a 4-day summary public execution to a secretive bomb-from-overhead summary execution, but neither's justice.

There is a lot of evidence that NK sucks: "too many" punishments for political crimes (every nation punishes the politically dangerous, but most are more selective); collective punishment of families; etc. But its ability to selectively document or revise history is not something unique to NK. Nor is its ability to summarily execute. And justice in the US from "lol rape lol" to the zoo conditions of Miami County PTDC point to a barbaric regime here, though our media is much less motivated to report treatment of our inmates than the "enemy"'s.

So let's not go down the bullshit "at least we're not as bad as NK" route. Of course we're not as bad as NK, but we should be moving much further away from them, not rest on our laurels because we're better.

Re:Same difference.

[gagol]

But its ability to selectively document or revise history is not something unique to NK.

History is your friend. When NK was created, US still had segregation going on. Then selective neutering of population and general bio/chem/atomic weapon testing its and canada's citizens done in the name of NATIONAL SECURITY. To this day, we still have to get justice for these acts. We live in a cocoon, but we pissed off many people building our empire, everything have a price, someday.

Reply from North Korean citizen

[Anonymous Coward]

Kind sir, I must point out that you are incorrect. Our venerated Dear Leader, Kim Jong-Un's father, invented the internet. This knowledge would have been passed from father to son due to their god-like telepathic abilities. I am certain that the person you are referring to, who I can no longer remember, never actually existed on the internet and is purely a figment of your over active imaginations.

From the Internet?

[viperidaenz]

Or the North Korea Intranet?

Re:From the Internet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Once Lil' Kimmy Jr. learns how the internet works, chances are there'll be a few strategic threats of nuclear war to "convince" the rest of us to remove him from the internet.

Re:From the Internet?

[gagol]

You blind foul.

catch-22

[themushroom]

You make a good point. This will be really embarassing for his memoirs: "I learned everything about leadership from my un--... uh, my dad." Of course he could spin this as having gifts from his deity since he can't admit his uncle existed and schooled him.

Also, whatever the North Korean version of Thanksgiving will be pretty awkward from henceforth.
"Auntie, you look good..."
"Eat shit, you little bastard."

Re:catch-22

[Anonymous Coward]

What are you talking about?

Supreme Leader Kim Jong-Un never had an uncle like that, and surely he didn't need anyone to teach him leadership - the leadership skills are in his blood, inherited from his grandfather, The Eternal President of the Republic Great Leader Kim Il-Sung.

Seriously, though, where did you ever see top nobs actually writing their own memoirs? They've got professional biographers who'll sidestep and paint over any uncomfortable parts of the past.

Re:catch-22

[jma05]

You jest. But the fate that awaits his aunt is probably to be sent to an insane asylum or otherwise removed from the palace, assuming she is also not labelled a co-conspirator and later executed, depending on her level of political activeness so far.

He could have been a jerk...

[Anonymous Coward]

He could have been a jerk, and tried to give the kid a hard time. On the other hand, killing a relative --one who goomed you for the job you now have-- is a signal that one of us has already gone batshit crazy. I think part of the problem is that absolute power corrupts absolutely. I would surmise that the power structure in the hermit kingdom is fragile with those at the top demanding utter and complete fealty from underlings. Any kind of 'second signal' from on high means that you have to nip that signal in the bud. An entire legion of followers following the 'second signal' must be brought into line if there is to be harmony. The fragility of the system means any 'correction signal' must be unambiguous and transparent through 100 levels of power, from warlord to peon. The correction signal in this case meant the death of an uncle. The kid now has complete fealty of all the generals. They don't dare breath a word against the fat kid. Also it sends a signal to others that the kid is batshit crazy. I don't know what parallels you can draw between the release of the American this past week and the killing of the uncle, but something in the back of my head says they might be related (like uncle was saying: 'kill the American, show us you have a pair...chicken', and the kid spared the American, and showed the uncle that he has a pair). Just a guess, but like I said...the power structure is fragile, and the system and kid are batshit crazy. An even more crazy idea is that the uncle dreamed up the idea and was willing to be the sacrifice so the kid would have power (although even I have a hard time with that one).

Was hopeful in Jong-Un...

[Gordo_1]

Look, his uncle was probably as much a despicable character as any in the NK ruling party, likely performing or being complicit in any number of crimes against humanity, so no real loss to the human race here in all likelihood. What I find disturbing though is that Jong-Un has displayed callous disregard for human life in recent months in order to maintain complete control over the population.

I had high hopes for him when I learned that he'd been schooled in Switzerland, spoke English and had made positive comments in the past about the plight of the NK people. I figured he was young, idealistic, and maybe not all that different from myself -- had I been placed into a very difficult situation due to my family lineage. If placed in such a situation, I imagine that for a year or two I might have acted the part (whatever that means) in order to maintain control long enough to come up with a plan to bring some level of reforms to the country and ensure a longer-term transition to democracy.

Then again, you never really hear about a dictator who had a change of heart and became 'sane' after being able to operate with complete impunity for a while. I guess it's true when they say absolute power corrupts absolutely.

It seems that his age and boyish looks belie the fact that Jong-Il chose and groomed his successor very carefully.

Re:Was hopeful in Jong-Un...

[CohibaVancouver]

What I find disturbing though is that Jong-Un has displayed callous disregard for human life in recent months in order to maintain complete control over the population

No different than his father or grandfather in that respect. All of them shipped men, women and children off to gulags to suffer and die. His father feasted while children starved to death...

Re:Was hopeful in Jong-Un...

[Anonymous Coward]

Now Jung-un's problem is that there is no one to blame now for NK's various problems/ economy, and his uncle was NK's main liasion to Hong Kong. I wonder if China's going to be so generous with their support now.

Re:Was hopeful in Jong-Un...

[Nimey]

Don't be naive. They can still blame Japan, South Korea, and the USA. It's not like North Korea's populace will know any better.

Re:Was hopeful in Jong-Un...

[Anonymous Coward]

Power corrupts, you naive stupid motherfucker

Re:Was hopeful in Jong-Un...

[Anonymous Coward]

Then again, you never really hear about a dictator who had a change of heart and became 'sane'

Those 'sane' dictators likely disappear mystically especially in places like NK. Un may have to bolster his position because he is suspected of being corrupted by the education in Switzerland. He either does that, or is pushed to the side and disappears as "traitor" to the revolution. This is not a kingdom where the king would have an absolute power over the official ideology and could do such transitions to sanity for the society.

Re:Was hopeful in Jong-Un...

[WuphonsReach]

It's not like North Korea's populace will know any better.

The leaks in that information dam have already started. Cross-border trade with China is leaking information in, which is why you hear a lot more the past few years about crackdowns on those caught listening to western media.

The question is "how long can they keep it up".

Re:Was hopeful in Jong-Un...

[dkf]

The question is "how long can they keep it up".

Probably far far longer than you'd hope, if history is anything to go by. Alas. Unless he manages to irritate China too much or decides to invade South Korea, and then you'll get a nasty war.

Re:Was hopeful in Jong-Un...

[CohibaVancouver]

The question is "how long can they keep it up".

As long as the scumbags in China keep backing up this tyrant, he'll be able to keep it up.

Re:Was hopeful in Jong-Un...

[Xest]

Kim Jong Un was always going to be the worst kind of dictator because he's the bullied spoilt chubby-boy runt of the litter and has decades of being so to make up for now he has a position of power.

He's North Korea's answer to Augustus Gloop from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.

Re:Was hopeful in Jong-Un...

[Gryle]

Hell, NK shelled South Korea a few years back and the world collectively wagged its finger at them.

Preemptive strike

[Anonymous Coward]

If this is supposed to keep other officials scared, perhaps it will work.
If it was me in such a position, I'd be scared by it. Scared enough to make a preemptive strike just to be on the safe side.

Sympathy?

[Charliemopps]

This guy was one of the top brass in NK. Lets keep in mind how many millions of tortures and death he's likely responsible for. The worlds better off without him, and we can only hope NK becomes unstable soon. Those poor people that live there, my God. How can we still have such a place on this earth.

Re:Sympathy?

[bill_mcgonigle]

Those poor people that live there, my God. How can we still have such a place on this earth.

There are still people who believe that North Korea is closer to an ideal than Hong Kong or Belgium. Look at how excited they are about the rapid decline of Venezuela. Oh, right, the capitalists are all there sabotaging the People's Armies...

As long as people in large groups reject reason, then other large groups of people will die for it.

Re:Sympathy?

[Beryllium Sphere(tm)]

"Hope", "becomes unstable", and "nuclear weapons" are not concepts that belong in the same place at the same time.

Re:Sympathy?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, Jang Song-Thaek was one of the only "good guys" in upper leadership in the DPRK, he stayed out of most of the jockeying for political position, and he is almost singlehandedly responsible for a large amount of new development, housing and infrastructure built out in the DPRK in the last few years. Killing him probably set back North Korea's progress by a decade or two.

Re:Sympathy?

[Charliemopps]

There isn't much to compare to the horror that's going on there now. I'd hate to see their arsenal get lose but the pain and suffering happening to those people now dwarfs even the worst case scenario with the nukes.

Re:Sympathy?

[UnderCoverPenguin]

There isn't much to compare to the horror that's going on there now. I'd hate to see their arsenal get lose but the pain and suffering happening to those people now dwarfs even the worst case scenario with the nukes.

Um, several million will die quickly, but the rest of the world - both humans and non-humans - will suffer some combination of radiation sickness and freezing weather. I think that is bigger.

Re: Sympathy?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, bullshit.

There would be fallout, but it would be limited. South Korea would be in horrible shape. (Actually without nukes even-Seoul is in artillery range, and NK has a lot of pieces aimed at it) SK and China would have fallout, as would likely Japan. Plus potentially a few other spots, assuming: NK missiles and nukes work, US and Japanese missiles (SM3s, and the interceptors based in Alaska and California don't if targeted on the US mainland.)

The type of dame to the world could be done, but only if the US or Russia (and possibly China) did it. 2 nukes have been used in war, but thousands have ben detonated. North Korea could probably be nearly wiped out by nukes and it still wouldn't cause that much damage to the whole world. Locally, it would be bad but over the world, no. (If radiation and mutation worked like movies, there would definitely be godzilla in Japan after that!)

Re:Sympathy?

[Tough Love]

How can we still have such a place on this earth.

It is just one of a depressingly large number of such places.

Re:Sympathy?

[Xest]

It's not that simple. You can have reformers inside a bad regime but it doesn't mean they're bad. Just because that regime is responsible for something does not mean everyone is complicit and supports it.

In fact, rumours are that this guy was executed because he was negotiating with China to try and pressure the rest of North Korea to adopting Burma/China style economic reform that would open up the economy which would make the lives of those in North Korea better.

Do you really believe it's more ethical to just quit the regime and fuck off into exile elsewhere rather than to risk your life attempting to change it from the inside? Quitting would've just bolstered Kim Jon Un unquestionably, but killing him at least makes many others question if this is a man they want to risk working under.

sacrificial lamb

[Anonymous Coward]

...maybe 'lamb' is a bad word to use, but for all we know his uncle was a sacrifice and this was KJU's coming of age 'test'. They get him to beak off the king here and there and then see how he plays it. Why wait for corruption to happen naturally when you can help speed it along.

OTOH it's pretty much fucked up in any scenario. Par for NKs course.

Un lasts until Un is taken out.

[Anonymous Coward]

Even the DPRK military leaders now see what is coming down the hill toward them.

Re:Un lasts until Un is taken out.

[Anonymous Coward]

What was coming down the hill recently with honorable leader was Dennis Rodman... That might have been a big confusing to the DPRK military leaders?

Re:Un lasts until Un is taken out.

[Anonymous Coward]

whoops, typo, "a bit confusing"

Only one reference to Memory Hole?

[rahvin112]

My goodness, only one reference to the Memory hole? That is where erased history went in the book 1984 and this situation fits it perfectly and there is only one bloody reference. I'm disappointed.

Oh and BTW, they aren't erasing him, only the mentions of him that were good. They broadcast live him being dragged out (by his elbows) of the politburo by soldiers.

How does that work?

[Daetrin]

How is he supposed to serve as a lesson to others if they're busy purging all records of him?

"Remember what happened to Jang Song Thaek before you think about crossing me!"
"Who? I don't remember him at all."
"Exactly!"

Sounds a bit more like bad comedy than a real threat.

Re:How does that work?

[Anonymous Coward]

https://scontent-b-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/1463232_10152049385114383_1631351356_n.jpg

Re:How does that work?

[MozeeToby]

Whispers are more powerful than shouts.

Re:How does that work?

[Anonymous Coward]

Having just read 1984 for the first time in 25 years, I can offer that in the book the new keepers of power have learned from the mistakes of the past and avoid creating martyrs by completely cleansing the heretics: bodily, mentally and historically. Dissidents are completely removed from existence. They even believe they were in the wrong before being expunged.

So, yeah, this new NK stuff is truly echoing some of what Orwell predicted. I wouldn't be surprised if the new Kim read 1984 when he was in England and fancies himself a sophisticated literary buff now and is ruling based on his "deep knowledge." I hope he never read The Prince.

Re:How does that work?

[DigiShaman]

It's not for the current generation of people alive. It's so his name can't be remembered in future generations. The current will never speak of him again. Him and his legacy is to be erased from existence. It's about political power and the projection of it to others!

Re:How does that work?

[Anonymous Coward]

When someone brings about a cultural change, others don't have to remember why.

You'll never understand until you experience it

[Taco Cowboy]

The term 'Orwellian' tends to be overused a bit these days. But, having read 1984, this is something straight out of that book

Millions of Jews died in the hand of the Nazis. Those who went through holocaust hell but survived fully comprehend the meaning of "LIBERTY".

Many people tried to scale the Berlin wall but was shot to death. Those who were successful fully appreciate the importance of "LIBERTY".

Some brave souls from North Korea risk everything and went through a very dangerous journey crossing the very heavily guarded border into China. To them, "LIBERTY" is worth much more than all the gold in the world.

They do not need "1984" to tell them the horror. They have experience it first hand.

I had befriended several holocaust survivors when I was in the United States (back when many of them were still alive, in the 70's) and I found that, for them, the same thing happen : Mere words could never justify the horrors that they had gone through.

The scars that they had was much worse than the scars that I have. They had their family slaughtered right in front of them, and yet, when I asked them to describe how they feel, they just shook their head.

They couldn't.

It's not the "hurt" that stopped them from telling me what happened. It's that SPOKEN WORDS itself is not sufficient.

Now, when I see people like you justifying your "understanding" the horror with a fiction, I sadly shake my head.

"1984" is but an old fiction.

You guys might find it useful, but to us who had been through the horror, that book does not even come close to the actual experience.

To us, "LIBERTY" means much more than life itself.

To some of you, that word is, a word.

That is why I mourn for the loss of "LIBERTY" of the United States of America but too many born and bred Americans themselves don't even understand what they have lost.

I humbly ask for your forgiveness because English is not my mother tongue. There are times, like now, I am at a total loss of words to describe how I feel.

All I can say is this --- You will never understand the importance of "LIBERTY" until you have lost it.

Re:You'll never understand until you experience it

[Anonymous Coward]

"You guys might find it useful, but to us who had been through the horror, that book does not even come close to the actual experience."

Quite a lot of words from somebody that says that there's no words to tell that horror and that includes himself among those that feel the "real" horror when his only exposition to such horror is by the telling from people that had no words to express it!

Re:You'll never understand until you experience it

[Oligonicella]

You're being a dick. I understood exactly what he meant.

Re:You'll never understand until you experience it

[Trax3001BBS]

The term 'Orwellian' tends to be overused a bit these days. But, having read 1984, this is something straight out of that book

Millions of Jews died in the hand of the Nazis. Those who went through holocaust hell but survived fully comprehend the meaning of "LIBERTY".

You haven't read 1994.

On the whole it involved three countries, two were always against the third.
Then without warning the enemy became an ally, and good all about the other country(ies) were expunged.

In this case it is a good analogy.

-------

I had a girlfriend who had chronic pain, not having any pain I never understood how she felt.

Re:You'll never understand until you experience it

[AK Marc]

1984 is a way to help those who don't know the definition to understand. You find it offensive that someone might understand liberty without having gone through what you did?

Re:You'll never understand until you experience it

[Guru80]

Have you ever read the book? The reference to 1984 in this instance is in regards to the "Ministry of Truth" in which every day the changed history in all written communication as they are doing with the Fat Leader's uncle.

Re:You'll never understand until you experience it

[sysrammer]

Yah, I can see why that coward posted anonymously. I'm sure he would be a well-recognized dick if he had posted under his username.

Re:You'll never understand until you experience it

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, for those looking from the outside, LIBERTY to Americans seems to be let the DEA/NSA/Congress screw their rights away as long as they are free to trudge along with their daily chore of slaving to pay the bill.

New Meme

[Sponge Bath]

The Evil Bert meme can be extended so Kim Jong Un's Uncle shows up in various photos on the internet. That should drive the pudgy dictator nuts!

Last pic of uncle?

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1380112/north-koreas-execution-kims-uncle-jang-will-test-ties-china

He wanted people to know about it

[Beryllium Sphere(tm)]

The government turned the electricity on so people could watch him being dragged out of the meeting on TV.

No fool

[waimate]

That Kim Jong Un is no fool. When executing relatives, always do it just *before* xmas, not *after*. That way you save on buying a present.

Re:No fool

[pellik]

It's not that simple. Delay too long and you may need a present should the execution be botched. Too early and they wont have bought your present yet.

Kim

[Anonymous Coward]

lots of people named Kim. Kim Jong Ill, Kim Jong Un, Kim Kashandra, Kim Carnes, Kim Basinger.

who?

[thewolfkin]

wait they killed who? I don't know anyone by that name.

"Eraser"

[frdmfghtr]

"You've just been erased..."

Re:"Eraser"

[TheloniousToady]

In these situations, I prefer the term "rubbed out".

Re:"Eraser"

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless they plan on burning books, they're going to need a lot of White Out!

Kim Jong Un, a victim of Affluenza

[Anonymous Coward]

Affluenza, the new disease of the rich and powerful -

http://slashdot.org/submission/3191311/affluenza

Enforced Ignorance

[srobert]

"Enforced Ignorance", what an interesting term. In the U.S., ignorance isn't actively enforced, but education is widely discouraged.

Re:Enforced Ignorance

[Anonymous Coward]

In the U.S., education is *mandatory*. There's a law. Until you are of a certain age, you *must* go to school.

Half of lottery earnings go to schools. In many states citizens can directly vote for special bonds to fund school-related projects.

We have a world-reknowned university system.

In short . . . I'm not sure I'm following you, chief.

Re:Enforced Ignorance

[harperska]

"Schooling" is mandatory. "Education" on the other hand often seems to be actively discouraged.

Due Process

[srobert]

Due process, The North Koreans have apparently eliminated such inefficiency from their system. A shame to let them get ahead of us in that.

Have we heard the method of execution?

[damn_registrars]

I recall hearing Kim Jong-Un already had someone executed by artillery in the recent past. I'm curious to know if he tried to top that with this one.

But can they avoid memes?

[Anonymous Coward]

The rest of the world can even do one better. We can photoshop Kim's dead uncle into pictures. It's likely that even "best Korea" can't avoid something if it somehow achieves annoying meme status.

I'm confused

[koan]

If they are all scared of the fat little shit why doesn't someone just shoot him.

To quote asgard supreme commander

[WaffleMonster]

"The North Koreans possess no such technology"

No uncle calling

[Anonymous Coward]

Kim Jong Un didn't what to say "uncle" no matter what the situation is. Now he doesn't have to.

Since when have I used the word "offensive" ?

[Anonymous Coward]

You find it offensive that someone might understand liberty without having gone through what you did?

Whoa ... hold yer horses there !!

This is what I wrote:

Now, when I see people like you justifying your "understanding" the horror with a fiction, I sadly shake my head.

I was sad.

I was sad that people having to rely on an old fiction to understand the true nature of the human society.

Where did you get the impression that I was " offended " ?

If I, for whatever reason, ever gave the impression that I was even a bit offended, please do accept my apology.

Re:Since when have I used the word "offensive" ?

[AK Marc]

The quotes and bolding around liberty seemed to indicate you thought nobody else understood it. The sheer repetition indicated you thought nobody understood it. I have never experienced a "real" loss of liberty. But I fled from the US. I recognize what was lost, and I expect it will take a bloody civil war to get it back, and that is both unlikely and devastating were it to happen, so the only rational course for anyone in the US who likes liberty is to leave.

Yes, the US doesn't have issues like others have. I know someone that fled *to* the US (the same place I fled from). His brother was killed by death squads in a Central American civil war. Because he was brothers with a revolutionary, his name was on the list. So he packed up everything he owned and his family, and illegally crossed into the US. He managed to eventually get citizenship. The people in the US talk about freedom, and have policies about taking in political prisoners, but it's all a sham.

But now I have "no liberty" on the twisted US scale because I'd need a permit just to buy a gun. Very few (almost no) eligible people are refused, but the fact I'd have to apply seems to indicate that I have no freedom at all, based on US conservative standards.

Re:Since when have I used the word "offensive" ?

[sysrammer]

The fact that you posted anon made me wonder if you were the OP (Taco Cowboy). As did the use of the colloquialism for someone who asked forgiveness for English being a second language for him.

I'm not trying to be pedantic here. The point (continues) to be, on a broader level, that it's harder to convey anything, especially emotions, via the written word. It's easy to misinterpret the written word (note the unintentional information that your post conveyed to me).

Enough of the discussion about the discussion. Back to the important subject, I was thinking about your statement "I was sad that people having to rely on an old fiction to understand the true nature of the human society."

In a way, it's sort of a good thing. It means times have been good. We should aspire to longer and longer periods of "good times". And the memories of the bad times will only be available via the written word (and other media, of course, which may change the equation some).

Of course, a problem is that once we lose that emotional, visceral feeling, we go back to doing the things that lead to the bad times.

FB

[Waldeinburg]

They also deleted his Facebook profile ... oh wait, they can't.

I haven't read "1984" ??

[Taco Cowboy]

You haven't read 1994

When I enrolled into the university in America back in the early 1970's my English needed a boost, so they put me into some "intensive English program", something like the ESL classes of today

In the classes the instructor asked us to read "Animal Farm", "1984" and stuffs like that and that we had to write report and do presentation (kinda like show and tell) in front of the class

In other words, I not only read "1984", I read that fiction __before_i>_ the year of 1984

I do not know which year you were born, but there is a possibility that when I read that book, you were not born yet.

Re:I haven't read "1984" ??

[Howitzer86]

Hello there... can you suggest a good movie or story that accurately or sufficiently describes what life was like in East Germany? 1984 might work for extreme situations like North Korea, but I think what we're headed for here in the U.S. is something a bit more subtle.

Snow coffee anyone?

[Anonymous Coward]

sorry lol

Arrest to execution in four days?

[Snufu]

North Korea doesn't have a death row. It's more like a death toboggan chute.

Re:Arrest to execution in four days?

[dkf]

North Korea doesn't have a death row. It's more like a death toboggan chute.

They sure took their time then. My impression of NK was that the accusation-execution interval was usually shorter than that. They must've really wanted to make an example of him.

Who is more linked in?

[Suomi-Poika]

Jang Sung-taek lifted himself to the power in his 20s via marriage. It is safe to say that he has had 40 years to build social networks within the North Korean elite.

Kim Jong Un is a heir to a communist tyrant but we didn't hear from him until 2009. It is quite safe to assume that he has had only four years of time to make alliances with the North Korean elite, military and Workers party - and only two years as a ruler.

Jang Sung-taeks network of people was most likely within the Workers Party of North Korea.

I would say that people who knew Jang Sung-taek is most likely in thousands and people who valued him is also very high. My guess is that now the fat boy has to be extra paranoid - he can not possibly know the extent of J.S-t's social network. Some of J-S.t's friend may have guns, or just a knives, and as we can see Kim Jong Un is not fat enough to be stab proof. I am expecting that North Korea may go to a bloody revolt after all.

Speculation

[Etherwalk]

He murdered his uncle for political reasons and doesn't want everyone to know about it, that kind of behaviour predates 1984 by several millennia.

Actually, we don't really know that. We are too far removed from it. It could also be that somebody else had his uncle murdered to show him what could happen to him, or to punish him, or otherwise keep him in line. The Uncle would be an obvious target for that kind of move.

Re:Speculation

[TapeCutter]

The uncle is not blood, the aunt is his dad's sister, her and the uncle split up not that long before the execution.

Excessively Ruthless Leaders

[Etherwalk]

Putin. Kaderov. Omar al-Bashir. To name three in power at the moment.

Welcome to North Korea

[Guru80]

Where they pride themselves on the use of Orwell's 1984 as the standard operating manual of State propaganda.

A turd is a turd

[CHIT2ME]

Guess the little turd thought Jang may just have been a little more popular than him. Turds think this way!