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PC Game Prices — Valve Starts the Race To Zero

An anonymous reader writes "Last week Valve made an interesting but seemingly innocuous announcement: they're giving game developers control of their own pricing on Steam. Nicholas Lovell now claims that this has effectively kicked off a race to zero for PC game pricing. He says what's starting to happen now will mirror what's happened to mobile gaming over the past several years. Quoting: 'Free is the dominant price point on mobile platforms. Why? Because the two main players don't care much about making money from the sale of software, or even In-App Purchases. The AppStore is less than 1% of Apple's revenue. Apple has become one of the most valuable companies in the world on the strength of making high-margin, well-designed, highly-desirable hardware. ... Google didn't create Android to sell software. It built Android to create an economic moat. ... In the case of both iOS and Android, keeping prices high for software would have been in direct opposition to the core businesses of Apple (hardware) and Google (search-related advertising). The only reason that ebooks are not yet free is that Amazon's core business is retail, not hardware. ... Which brings me to Steam. The Steambox is a competitor to consoles, created by Valve. It is supposed to provide an out-of-the-box PC gaming experience, although it struggles to compete on either price or on marketing with the consoles. It doesn't seem as if Steam is keen to subsidize the costs of the box, not to the level that Microsoft and Sony are. But what if Steam's [unique selling point] was thousands or tens of thousands of games for free?'"

212 comments

  1. It's not free by Scutter · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The "race to zero" has done nothing but create a wasteland of crappy "freemium" games. Dungeon Keeper is the culmination of developers' efforts to move the pricing model away from initial purchase and into in-app purchases. The practice has absolutely decimated gaming. I don't necessarily see Steam's move as a good thing.

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    1. Re:It's not free by Sockatume · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's simply not going to happen. In casual mobile gaming, yes, because the product is essentially interchangable and there's not a lot of specialist interest, but that's a much weaker phenomenon in console gaming and practically nonexistent in the sort of games Steam users tend to play.

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    2. Re:It's not free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Pick one instance of a category and declare that every member of that category is identical to that instance: Easy way to win rhetorical points, not actually a sound logical point.

      Picking the worst free to play game and saying that therefore free to play can never work is bullshit of the highest order. Especially when talking in an article about FUCKING VALVE. Consider the following games:

      DotA 2
      Portal 1
      Team Fortress 2

      You know what they all have in common? They are either currently free to play, or they have had times when they were free to get and keep permanently. You know what else they have in common? Fucking incredible gameplay and production value that have made them some of the most popular and most played games for PC.

      So take your fucking "Free to play games can never be good because there was this one example where it wasn't" bullshit and shove it.

    3. Re:It's not free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Exactly. What we get with most free-to-play games are empty shells that require players to pay more than the price of a normal game title to be able to play without spending countless of hours grinding.

      Damn how I miss games with endless of hours of content, like Jagged Alliance 2 or X-Com Apocalypse. Wasteland 2 seems like a promising title, but even that had to be crowd funded, which is really sad.

    4. Re:It's not free by N1AK · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's simply not going to happen. In casual mobile gaming, yes, because the product is essentially interchangable and there's not a lot of specialist interest, but that's a much weaker phenomenon in console gaming and practically nonexistent in the sort of games Steam users tend to play.

      It's already happening on PC and console. There are a crazy number of freemium PC games and they are increasingly popular with younger demographics. Free games on consoles (Xbox at least) exist and even the default for games we buy is that the retail price is subsidised by an endless stream of expansions.

      As a generation who got into gaming without paying for games reaches the age where they would become the typical console market they aren't going to swallow $80 price tags, even if the games charging that are providing excellent value for money.

    5. Re:It's not free by gweihir · · Score: 2

      I don't think it is a problem. What I see actually happening is that the dross of the developers creates free stuff of low quality for the huge masses that do not want to pay. The good developers still charge a fair price and get revenue and/or move to alternate financing models like crowd-sourcing. I think we have one instance of capitalism actually working for a change here: Games are priced in relation to value provided.

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    6. Re:It's not free by ReeceTarbert · · Score: 2

      The "race to zero" has done nothing but create a wasteland of crappy "freemium" games. Dungeon Keeper is the culmination of developers' efforts to move the pricing model away from initial purchase and into in-app purchases. The practice has absolutely decimated gaming. I don't necessarily see Steam's move as a good thing.

      Speaking of Dungeon Keeper and the flood of "freemium" games I'd like to see less and less of, here's a much a more sane (as in opposite) take on the subject: How In-app Purchases Have Destroyed The Industry

      And now, I don't think that what's good good for Apple or Valve is going to be necessarily good for gamers and game developers.

      RT.

    7. Re:It's not free by Jaysyn · · Score: 5, Informative

      Hawken & Path of Exile are pretty damn good too.

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    8. Re:It's not free by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      It isn't free to make these games, especially if the games are of any particular quality.
      So if they are going to offer them to users for free, they will need to find an alternative method of getting compensated for their work.
      They will have adds in their games, they will put product placements in their games, they will have paid add ins, they will partner with an other company to make their product a promotional item...
      It isn't free gaming, it comes at a cost. And I don't care for the idea that Gaming should be free either, unlike Operating Systems, and web servers and web browsers, where they are an important part of an IT Infrastructure, games are for personal enjoyment, and they should have a cost to them.

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    9. Re:It's not free by tpstigers · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      The practice has absolutely decimated gaming.

      The "race to zero" has removed one tenth of games?

    10. Re:It's not free by gajop · · Score: 1

      Those are indeed games with a good free2play model (you can only buy cosmetic items with no gameplay benefits), but they also aren't really the best example of how money can be made with f2p. The games you mentioned are made by Valve, and are also used as a way to popularize Steam itself. I know a couple of (hardcore) games who signed up for steam just to get Dota2, and that's a demographic you really want to attract.

    11. Re:It's not free by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      The problem is that hardcore gamers are a niche, these freemium games attract a much large audience and are therefore far more profitable.
      Also consider multiplayer games, the more players you have the more attractive the game looks, having the game available for free will bring in a lot more players.

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    12. Re:It's not free by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      The problem is that making AAA games where you charge 60 dollars after 2 years of development is dangerous. Great companies have died repeatedly when they've gone to market only to not have the game sell as well as they need it to sell.

      Freemium and microtransaction are a different business model that has shown itself to be successful.

      I don't like it either.

      I prefer a preorder/kickstarter system where the games are funded not with big bank loans but fan/customer contributions/purchases prior to release.

      OR

      The telltale system of serialized gaming where small games are released about once a month to once every two months. Each piece having somewhere between 1 to 2 hours of content. Then you offer customers/fans the ability to purchase games on a per episode basis or a season pass. That way rather then investing 2 years of time and waiting for a big payout at the end, you can test your market every 2 months. This keeps you from over investing in a game that might not be popular. Further, though this hasn't been done yet... this has the potential to allow a developer to produce a game with the same business model as the Simpsons... You never have to stop releasing episodes if people keep buying them. So rather then make one game you could keep releasing episodes for 20 years for the same game. Up to the customer base.

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    13. Re:It's not free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      TF2 was subsidized by The Orange Box buyers.

      DotA2 makes most of its money taking a cut from user generated and sold content.

      Portal 1 isn't free.

    14. Re:It's not free by lister+king+of+smeg · · Score: 1

      I got portal 1 for free from valve because I was a part of its Linux beta program.

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    15. Re: It's not free by Bram+Stolk · · Score: 1

      Hrs of development does not scale linearly with hrs of play.

      A game with double the content will typically take marginaly more dev time to create.

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    16. Re:It's not free by jeffmflanagan · · Score: 1

      >The practice has absolutely decimated gaming

      Well, that still leaves us with 9 out of 10 games. That doesn't sound so bad.

    17. Re:It's not free by Immerman · · Score: 1

      I suppose it's sad in the sense that the big production houses mostly just want to stick to rehashes of last years blockbusters, but I think that's the unavoidable price to be paid for gaming going mainstream - I give you Hollywood as another example. Personally I find it rather uplifting that a bunch of enthusiastic developers can actually fund the creation of a semi-niche game with high production values. The days when a sophisticated game could be made by two guys in a garage seems to have mostly passed - producing contemporary art assets alone have completely dwarfed the cost of whole games of old.

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    18. Re:It's not free by Sockatume · · Score: 1

      Where we differ seems to be that I don't think there's a lot of overlap there; that younger demographic playing free games is, to my eyes, a new gaming audience, not a conversion of the existing audience. I get your point though.

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    19. Re:It's not free by Talderas · · Score: 1

      AAA titles are safer bets than an equal amount of dollars in lesser productions. You know why? When you have one title, as opposed to say 10 titles, you're spending X money marketing one game rather than X/10 money marketing each of the individual games. Success of a title does not grow linearly with marketing dollars and more dollars often yields a far larger ratio of value than a small amount of dollars. Your marketing dollars are also not being spent competing against your own titles by having a single AAA over multiple titles.

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    20. Re:It's not free by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      Ya know what the solution is to this "race to the bottom"?

      Government price supports. Create an artificial shortage on how fast their servers can sell and distribute games by buying hundreds of copies a second and downloading them all.

      "We are the world. We are the children. We can come to make a better place so let's not givin'."

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    21. Re:It's not free by Kelbear · · Score: 1

      Steam's move is just the natural extension of what they have already been doing to the games industry. Publishers had set pricing at the console manufacturer's stated standard of $60 and refused(or were discouraged) to let their pricing float with the market for their games. This led to games being strongly reliant on a big marketing push and collecting nearly all of the game's lifetime revenues within the first few months after release.

      Steam steps in and aggressively pushes discount offers, creating sales to customers who weren't willing to pay $60, but were ok with paying $40 for an older game. That still left behind a lot of people who were willing to pay $30 for an older game. But the discounts keep coming and getting sharper as the game ages. All-in-all, Steam showed those publishers that discounting can get them money that they would never otherwise see. On consoles, the used game market had ballooned tremendously by taking advantage of the ability to sell games at lower prices. On PC, the publishers/developers can sell at used game market prices through discounts, and get a taste of that customer segment.

      Now Steam is letting them control their own prices. Many will continue to leave their game at full price and opt for limited-time discount strategies, others will decrement their pricing as their game ages. But now that Steam is showing them the light, they are now being invited to decrease their prices on their own initiative. Many games find new life in sales, and have opened up the possibility of resurgent sales during the long tail of the game's lifetime. (Through Humble Bundle AMA threads on reddit, developers noted that the nearly-free "sales" on their games through humble bundle causes matching sales spikes on Steam, their theory is that any time they increase their exposure to the gaming community it revitalizes interest in their games and renews word-of-mouth marketing. I thought that was interesting since up to that point I had thought that the nearly-free humble bundle offers were holding down profitability of indie games).

    22. Re:It's not free by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      Freemium and microtransaction are a different business model that has shown itself to be successful.

      This is just an extension of the retail system and it is brought about by the desires of the consumer. We have $50 products out there that might last for 10 or 15 years, but instead, the consumer opts for the $40 one that they have to buy a new one every year due to failures.

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    23. Re:It's not free by phorm · · Score: 1

      Dungeon Keeper is the culmination of developers' efforts to move the pricing model away from initial purchase and into in-app purchases

      Actually, I'm fairly sure that's the culmination of business/marketing units to move to a PITA in-app-purchase model, and the developers are following the orders from above.

    24. Re:It's not free by wiggles · · Score: 1

      > Damn how I miss games with endless of hours of content

      Endless hours of content means that gamers spend too much time playing the game, rather than purchasing more games because the old ones got boring.

      The trick in the game development industry is to make a game interesting for just long enough to switch gamers to the next thing. If they offer endless content, they move to subscription models, like WOW.

    25. Re:It's not free by tepples · · Score: 1

      Create an artificial shortage on how fast their servers can sell and distribute games by buying hundreds of copies a second and downloading them all.

      I can think of a few countermeasures to such a DoS:

      • Require a temporary authorization on a payment method (like what gas station card readers use) to create an account.
      • Limit each account to three game downloads in any 60 minute window: good for syncing your library overnight on a new machine, bad for DoS.
      • Do not allow game purchases if there are too many unplayed games.
    26. Re:It's not free by brit74 · · Score: 1

      Team Fortress 2 and Portal 1 didn't *used* to be free-to-play. You used to have to buy them. At this point, they're so old that they've reach "bargain bin" prices (in this case, free). There's a huge difference between "used to cost money, but are now free to play" and "has always been free to play" - that difference being the fact that the pay model is what paid for their development, so it's kind of irrelevant to say "they're great games and they're freemium games" (as if freemium payments actually paid for their development into awesome games).

    27. Re:It's not free by tepples · · Score: 1

      So what are two guys in a garage supposed to make instead in order to get into the industry?

    28. Re:It's not free by ildon · · Score: 1

      Dungeon Keeper is the culmination of nothing. Just because they finally slapped a name you recognize on one of these pieces of shit doesn't mean they've reached some apex. Dungeon Keeper isn't even one of the worst offenders. This is the Facebook/mobile game model that's been popular for like 6 years.

    29. Re:It's not free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Basic law of economics - everyone needs to make a living, so nothing is "free". Anyone who thinks they are getting something for free lacks insight.

      What will happen is that these games will either start cramming ads down your throat (which is the *last* thing I want on my PC) and/or they will nickle & dime one to death with in-game-purchases (which is also the last thing I want on my PC).

      In general I do not use "free" apps on my phone either - again, because nothing is free. It has been shown that these "free" apps are generally scraping all sorts of information off ones phone that, if you knew it was happening, you would never allow. Do you really want the same thing to happen with your PCs? The same systems that you use to log into your bank accounts?

      So wise up folks - "free" apps are simply not free and you do not want them on your PC (and really not on your phone either).

    30. Re:It's not free by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      Actually putting all your eggs in one basket and waiting 2 years before you know whether it will sell any copies is a much greater risk.

      That isn't an opinion. That's math.

      Please don't argue 2+2=5... it annoys people that can do basic math. No offense.

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    31. Re: It's not free by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      You are correct to the extent that the initial episode in an episodic game will require more work then the second episode. However, that is true in television as well. And yet, television is a much more stable business model then say movies. With television, you produce a pilot episode and release it. Often by the time of release additional episodes are either in development or completed. Through the first year of release especially the production company gets a firm idea of what kind of return and what their profits are likely to be going forward.

      A show that isn't very popular will generally be canceled after either half a season or a full season. Where as a popular show can see its budget increase radically. In some cases by 100 times. And can be sustained there after for decades with a loyal and reliable fan base.

      Contrast that with the summer blockbuster business model which is how most commercial movies sustain themselves. For one thing, each movie is going to cost you about 200 million to make... EACH. And that often doesn't include marketing and other associated costs. And that is before receiving a DIME in return.

      That is huge risk and the only way you can pay that back is through a big success.

      Okay, how do you manage that kind of risk? Well, two things have to happen. ONE the movie or AAA game has to be published by a large publisher that can survive if the game fails and it loses the 200 million dollars utterly. So only big companies like Warner Brothers or EA can make this sort of content because only they can afford to fail occasionally. TWO the content has to appeal to the majority of the market. Ideally everyone.

      Most of the problems with the modern game and movie industry can be traced back to this model and the constraints it puts on development.

      If you like bland, boring, dumbed down, gruel... then continue to support the existing model. Its for idiots. Why? Because its targeted at most people... and most people. And that means you're dealing with content that can be appreciated by morons.

      Now, television obvious is often likewise bland boring gruel as well. But its also generally through through major networks that likewise are very expensive and thus you see something of the same problem.

      Games are different. They aren't distributed through NBC in real time. But rather can be digitally downloaded from any server with payment made through paypal or any sort of business model you can imagine.

      As such, games CAN attain a higher degree of quality then most movies or television shows IF they avoid the business models that force them to limit their quality.

      The price they have to pay for that however is managing their own risk. Small game companies cannot invest 2 years of development time in a huge staff and have it not be a huge success. What is more, there is no way to know if a game will be a huge success. Therefore, they cannot make large AAA games in one shot and then charge one price at the end.

      They can either make cheap games that can fail without destroying the company. OR they can release episodic games that won't be cheap but will be very short. If they're not popular they can cancel the series.

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    32. Re: It's not free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Valve was pretty much the pioneer on that mark too. Half-Life 2 got rave reviews despite the fact it was only 8-10 hours of game play. (And much of that game play was filler content of driving down empty roads.) After that the industry figured out that reviewers and some players actually liked short games because they could knock them off in a day. Now the typical AAA game is some crappy plot movies, a few hours of filler content, and a couple big scripted set-piece battles.

      Of course we all know how the quick turn-around "episodes" system Valve promised actually turned out.

    33. Re:It's not free by Cederic · · Score: 1

      Portal 1 isn't free.

      My copy of Portal was given to me for free by Valve.

      They haven't revoked my ownership even though they currently charge for it.

    34. Re:It's not free by davester666 · · Score: 1

      It's why Microsoft came up with Microsoft Points...something that wasn't money, and that developers could eventually get to you to "spend" some in their game, even just 5 or 10. Microsoft knows there is a powerful psychological difference between asking for 10 Microsoft Points and $0.10

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    35. Re:It's not free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Portal and Team Fortress were not Free to Play until after Valve made several million dollars off of them first, and also having the fiscal backing of the Steam DRM to boot. Assuming a game to be non-microtransaction AND "F2P" at release time AND still be profitable is laughable at best, bone chilling at rest. If there is no money for developers, there are no developers. With the F2P concept, we're only going to get more games like Planetside2 where the devs are clearly trying to make money, not an experience for the player. This fundamentally undermines the entire concept of video gaming. Valve may have the best PC DRM software, and some of the best titles to their name, but the rest of us developers are in the cold when it comes to generating cash flow. Nobody likes to see Realworld Ads when attempting to enjoy some escapism of the said Realworld. Also, if the game's website doesn't have a reason to be logged into daily then there is very little Ad revenue from the website. The ONLY REASON F2P Mobile games return such a profit is because there are those quick-access ads. They can do this because it's not a PC, it's a Phone. The time it takes to go from one app to another is inside the window for browsing other stuff quickly, namely Ads. TLDR: AAA Titles that don't suck aren't free, ever.

    36. Re:It's not free by Talderas · · Score: 1

      Yes, by all means armchair quarterback what you think the market wants and by all means go ahead and disregard what the data shows. It's not like a harvard professor has studied the issue and written a book on why blockbusters are safer bets than smaller productions. This is no 2+2=5. It's all about marketing and with marketing each cumulative dollar adds more effect than the dollar before it. That's what the AAA blockbusters have as an advantage that minor projects simply can't afford. Yes. It is a big bet but the chance it goes bust on you is far lower than the smaller projects that you can't do much marketing on. What happens is that because the company made a big bet, it starts generating noise and reviewers start looking at it, distributors start looking at it, basically everything you want. If you don't push that kind of marketing money behind the product then you have a lot less interest from the chain between you and the customer. It's with the former situation that your chances of success and turning a profit goes up.

      But by all means, continue ignoring what and why businesses do things, any study of marketing, or even how the slashdot opinion does not at all capture and reflect popular opinion and reaction and that they are not the target of the strategy. Because the simple fact of the matter is that the high risk stuff is funded because of the AAAs. All you have to do is look at the dollars spent versus the return of AAAs and the smaller projects (factoring in the ones that lose money in both cases) and you'll start to see that the return on value for the AAAs is drastically higher. Those AAAs with their relatively safe bets provide a plethora of cash that lets the publishers go after and attempt those riskier products that have smaller budgets and not a lot of marketing.

      Considering the prevalence of the blockbuster strategy in all forms of entertainment media and their coupled spectacular profits, I'd definitely be more inclined to agree with what Miss Anita Elberse has to say on the topic than your rather uninformed opinion that it's "dangerous".

      http://www.amazon.com/Blockbus...

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    37. Re:It's not free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Know what else is in common with them? They have DRM and can not be played separately from Steam.

    38. Re:It's not free by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

      Well you can always try to make some crappy little flash/java game that catches on or catches the eye of a big company that hires you.

      But as I've said a million times, expecting to start your own company from the start is futile. Yes it happens but it's rare. You do what you have to do, you build your experience, make connections, save up resources...and then if you're lucky, then you start your own company.

      And yes, I know that re-locating is problematic, but to use an analogy. If you want to be a haute cuisine chef, you don't stay in podunk...you move to a big city. It's what you HAVE to do, it's where the market is.

      Go work for somebody else. Markus Persson did it, he got his start working for King...that's right, the evil Candy Crush Saga company, and JAlbum. Gabe Newell did it, working for THIRTEEN years for Microsoft. Heck even Sid Meier worked on 12 games before he ever became the "Sid Meier with his name in the title" we know now.

      So quit asking how to get into the fucking industry, you've been told many times. Either you can or can't do it, and if you can't, be silent.

    39. Re:It's not free by Nyder · · Score: 1

      Hawken & Path of Exile are pretty damn good too.

      Marvel Heroes is very fun to play, and a better Diablo II/III clone then Diablo III and Path to Exile.

      www.marvelheroes.com

      Free to play, and you can get everything in the game as drops, 'cept for storage space. And I don't mind buying more storage space, the game is fun.

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    40. Re:It's not free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know. gog.com has a lot of great games for super cheap.

    41. Re:It's not free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course, they got rid of Points with the release of the Xbox One. All prices are in local currency now.

    42. Re:It's not free by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      Your harvard professor's argument didn't address serialization which has hundreds of years of commercial success in publishing.

      So no, you have no case.

      Good day, sir.

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    43. Re:It's not free by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      With game content that's more reasonable given that you don't know if you'll actually like it.

      You can try a new game at no risk. How many games do I go through and reject in a given year? Dozens at least. Imagine if I paid 60 dollars for each just to know I don't like it?

      Free demos are another way around that problem but we've seen demos largely disappear from the market. And on consoles they were never really an option. The closure of the blockbuster chains was a blow to console gamers amongst other things because they can't rent a game to try it.

      So how do you know if you'll like a game?

      So freemium games let you do that. Again, I don't like the business model because games trend back to their arcade roots to some extent. The game becomes increasingly designed around getting you to put another quarter in the machine. And I think that's not a good direction.

      My ideal would be a kickstarter/steam pre-order type system where the developer only has to make the game to satisfy their loan obligations. No need for example to sell 5 million copies which has been a target many recent AAA titles have had to hit or the game was considered a failure.

      Alternatively, I am a big fan of the serialized game concept. Yes, getting the engine ready for the first installment will take a disproportionate amount of time. However, once you've got that in place you can not only make multiple installments of a given game but you can also tweak that pilot to create distinct franchises that can likewise be serialized.

      Not a fan of the current business model enjoyed by the big publishing houses since the games are often so desperate to make the investment back that the content is frequently boring and stupid.

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    44. Re:It's not free by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 1

      So what are two guys in a garage supposed to make instead in order to get into the industry?

      Just build a fun, entertaining, and highly polished game, price it realistically, and hope for the best. It's certainly still possible for "two guys in a garage" (actually, it's just me working on this game) to create games independently.

      I've been a profession game developer for well over a decade, and worked on some of the industries biggest games, so I understand all too well the enormous volume of modern art, design, and programming assets that are poured into a modern title. I turned indie (started making my own game full time) over a year ago. My first game was deliberately chosen in a style that would allow a single developer to produce the code, design, and art assets within a reasonable timeframe. There are simply some games for which this wouldn't work, so you have to choose pretty carefully. In other words, don't choose a design that's meant to compete with the AAA titles out there. It's just not feasible.

      In my case, I'm completely eschewing 3D, and sticking to 2D tile-based worlds, albeit with a game engine that supports modern hardware and effects. Even within this limited subset of game options, I also chose a specific game design that would work to my strengths instead of requiring a massive amount of art, something I just don't have the resources to produce myself.

      There's nothing I can really do about a "race to the bottom" in terms of pricing, but I think indie games are well positioned here. It won't actually take a lot of game sales even at a low price point, relatively speaking, to support my next game's development, and since I've already got the engine and base game finished, I'll be able to get the sequel out the door a lot faster.

      I just have to hope that people are still willing to actually pay for small, entertaining games instead of always looking for freemuim products, because I'd much rather that people have a "pure" gaming experience unencumbered by attempts to suck out more money. This does mean a purchase is required up front, though.

      I guess we'll see in about a year's time. I'd really love to keep doing what I'm doing, but if all else fails, I guess it's back to the big game companies for me. I'm not complaining, of course, since even working for others, making videogames is pretty awesome as a career, but I really hope that the two years I've invested in this game pays off.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    45. Re:It's not free by tepples · · Score: 1

      I've been a profession game developer for well over a decade

      How much money did you have to save up in order to relocate to search for your first job in the industry? What did you have in your portfolio in order to qualify for an interview? And how has the entry-level environment changed since then?

    46. Re:It's not free by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Hawken & Path of Exile are pretty damn good too.

      World of Tanks deserves a mention.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    47. Re:It's not free by mjwx · · Score: 1

      It's already happening on PC and console. There are a crazy number of freemium PC games and they are increasingly popular with younger demographics. Free games on consoles (Xbox at least) exist and even the default for games we buy is that the retail price is subsidised by an endless stream of expansions.

      This is not a new phenomena by any stretch of the imagination.

      Subscription and DLC have been the norm for at least 5 years now. With MMO's like WoW or EVE you had to pay a fee for continued play. For years they've also been selling DLC which limits players without the DLC. So prevoiusly you'd outlay $50 for the game ($90 if you're in Australia) and then $15 per month or DLC. Now they're just removing the $50 barrier of entry and trying to sell more DLC.

      But a race to the bottom wont happen with AAA games. They'll continue to sell those at high prices. Your next Call of 12 yr olds wont be free unless it comes with a hefty monthly fee.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    48. Re:It's not free by Smauler · · Score: 1

      Banished was made almost entirely by one guy (not in a garage, presumably), released last month. It's pretty good, not without its flaws, looks pretty too.

    49. Re:It's not free by Dominare · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure you know what the word 'culmination' means.

    50. Re:It's not free by Dominare · · Score: 1

      An innovative mod.

    51. Re:It's not free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They also gave away free copies at one point. It was some kind of celebration, maybe something to do with multiplatform support for steam, but I know that's how I got copies on all of my steam accounts and I never took part in the linux stuff.

      Now that I think of it, I think it was a giveaway when Steam arrived on Mac, but I am not 100% sure. I just know I've never even looked at steam on linux.

    52. Re:It's not free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed. As does War Thunder. World of Warplanes however...

    53. Re:It's not free by aestrivex · · Score: 1
      Nobody actually thinks that every game should be free to play. This discussion is about which models of game payment are fair to the players, developers, and both justify the cost of creating the game and paying for it. There are some models of payment which are clearly not fair to the developers. Most developers are unwilling to use a payment model, for instance, in which the game is distributed for free (as in beer) and no payment is given, and most gamers who enjoy free content understand this.

      Among models that do generate revenue, as a gamer, I feel that there are a number of payment models that are fair and under which I purchase games. These include a one-time payment, free to play premium content that has little effect on gameplay (as in games such as League of Legends). In many circumstances, I would also accept advertising in exchange for freely played games.

      In addition to these models which I consider fair, there are other models I consider unfair and will not purchase games with, including any sort of subscription (as in games such as WoW) and highly restrictive paywalls (as in games such as SWTOR).

      Other people may have different views on what is fair and what is not, and may choose to speak with their wallets as consumers in a different way that I do (I refuse to buy products from unfair payment models). And that is fine. But broadly, there is considerable consensus that you have ignored entirely in this discussion as to which payment models in general are the hallmarks of good companies that produce good content and are good for the health of the industry, and which ones are practiced by companies like EA and lead to shit like Dungeon Keeper.

    54. Re:It's not free by Optali · · Score: 1

      Right.
      Most free games suck massive balls. Dungeon Keepr is not the first, just recall Ultima Forever which recently announced bankruptcy.
      I think that many gamers will still favour quality... mate, it's not that you crack a game every few days, a good game keeps you hooked for at least a few weeks in solo mode and maybe years if it's an online one. Freeemium will either be so easy that it sucks or impossible without purchases and thus not attractive in any of both modes.

      but we may be wrong; giving price liberty may be a good move, because it doesn't necessarily mean that developers will do freemium.

      Also recall that the best and most valued games on the mobiles plaforms such as Infinity Blade aren't free !

      --
      -- 29A the number of the Beast
    55. Re: It's not free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Make the game free once it reaches cost+reasonable profit. Same goes for Windows and other software. Hell even MP3s, realease free but sell physical DVDs with printed stuff and merchandise. Put out a 240p version of the latest Hollywood movie, if not on release date, then maybe 2 weeks later. But greed is greed. All this wont happen.

    56. Re:It's not free by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 1

      I've been a profession game developer for well over a decade

      How much money did you have to save up in order to relocate to search for your first job in the industry? What did you have in your portfolio in order to qualify for an interview? And how has the entry-level environment changed since then?

      I needed roughly $10K or so to move if I recall correctly, since it was just me and I didn't have to move an entire household. At the time, all I needed in terms of qualifications was some good demos and a phone interview. This was at a very small company. Keep in mind this was over fifteen years ago, though. It's hard for me to gauge accurately now though, since I've got much more experience and a solid enough resume that I now have a pretty good shot at being hired no matter where I apply. It was definitely a lot harder to get hired earlier in my career, but I guess that's to be expected.

      I think that what hasn't changed is that having at least one demonstrable game-related product that you've either created on your own or contributed significantly is very helpful. No one wants to hire a rookie that is going to make all the mistakes that are bound to be made on your first big project, so you essentially want to get that first project out of the way as soon as possible. Also, having a finished product on your resume demonstrates that you can actually finish products that you start. When I was involved in the hiring process, this was always something I looked out for at least. In my case, I had some game demos and a non-game related product I was already selling on the side, so I could offer that up as a demonstration of my coding style and ability.

      Of course, this assumes you can pass the technical portions of the interviews, where you have to demonstrate your coding and analytical competency. That's sort of a given as well, and I don't think that part of things has changed much at all.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    57. Re:It's not free by tepples · · Score: 1

      I needed roughly $10K or so to move if I recall correctly [...] over fifteen years ago

      Thank you. You're the first to actually put a ballpark dollar amount on this, compared to others who say "if you can't figure out on your own how relocation works, you don't deserve a job."

      Also, having a finished product on your resume demonstrates that you can actually finish products that you start.

      Would my completed playable games and video of a work in progress be a plus or a minus?

    58. Re:It's not free by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 1

      Would my completed playable games and video of a work in progress be a plus or a minus?

      Definitely a plus. Seeing some sort of coding project through to completion is important, at least in my opinion, and the more the better. There are simply things you can't really learn any other way except through experience. If you've completed projects, then you know what I'm talking about - all those little details that can potentially swamp an elegant theoretical design with all-too-inconvenient reality.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    59. Re:It's not free by djnforce9 · · Score: 1

      Not Valve games but there's also "Planetside 2" (run by Sony of all companies) and Firefall (the latter showing a whole lot of potential once it gets out of its beta stage).

      The only concern I have about free-to-play is that the majority of titles are multi-player (usually MMO) only. I've seen very few "Single Player" F2P titles that aren't just demos in disguise. There are exceptions though such as "Plants Vs Zombies 2" which can be played all the way through without paying (unless you REALLY want access to the optional premium plants).

  2. The future by Thanshin · · Score: 2

    The end of innovation kills capitalism.

    If technological innovation slows down, we'll have to promote marketing innovation.

    The point is to make people happier with "the new", it doesn't matter how.

    1. Re:The future by gweihir · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well, it seems quite a few people actually do not want "new", but good. Just look at what games get financed on Kickstarter. These people are not the majority, but it does not matter. What matters is that enough people are willing to pay (and paying a reduced fee in advance with a higher risk is entirely fine by me) to keep good game developers able to practice their craft. What has been forgotten by many with the whole "publisher" mess, is that in order for a good game to be created, providing a reasonable salary and reasonable infrastructure funding for a relatively small team for a few years is quite enough. That is why 3 Million provided by 60'000 people gets us Wasteland 2, while no publisher would touch it at these numbers. This new model cuts out the greed. Don't forget that game designers _want_ to create games. Getting rich is not on their agenda. It is very much for publishers that today add nothing of value, but huge overhead.

      Capitalism can actually work if greed is kept under control and monopolies are prevented.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    2. Re:The future by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't know many game developers I take it? They all want the moneys :-)

    3. Re:The future by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This new model cuts out the greed. Don't forget that game designers _want_ to create games. Getting rich is not on their agenda.

      Uh, yea, no. As another Anonymous Coward points out, "they all want the moneys". More to the point, the real issue is that a game designer who hosts a Kickstarter is closer to a startup approaching a VC. To that end, Kickstarter goes out of it way to try to narrow down the people "worthy" of getting money by having them jump through the hoops to show they actually have the plans and/or experience to likely finish their project and hence even begin to get crowdsource funding. So, the point is closer to the fact that if the infrastructure is setup to select towards those with an agenda to *at least* produce games, then games will likely be produced. It speaks nothing of their agenda to make good games or not be in it for the money.

      I mean, look no further than Mighty No 9 which even if it turns out to be an awesome game also (a) had a kickstarter goal near 10x what most others have, (b) was hardly out of the preliminary design phase compared to most games that already had at least an internal alpha, and (c) honestly is likely to be another ho-hum Megaman clone which in itself most Megaman games were effectively of themselves. And I say this as someone who who likes Megaman games. But it's clear to me that the people involved wanted to be substantially funded first (they're hiring a lot of old experienced ex-Capcom employees which isn't helping things, budget wise). It's also pretty clear that a lot of other groups could make as good a Megaman clone with a much smaller kickstarter base. Yet Mighty No 9 reached its goal heavily on who the project lead was. That simply sucks.

    4. Re:The future by zlives · · Score: 1

      wonder what they think about StarCitizen +400K subscribers at nearly 40mil

    5. Re:The future by gweihir · · Score: 2

      Nonsense. Even though "greed" is an US mainstream way-of-life, not everybody is scum, and competent craftsmen usually a lot less so than others.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    6. Re:The future by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Some smaller publishers may start to care, but the larger ones want at least one order of magnitude more. But it shows that you can get the finding even for an advanced project without a publisher. Good. This is what the Internet is for: Connecting people globally and cutting out the intermediaries that make out expensive.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  3. Income ing Game designers by MRe_nl · · Score: 2

    "Hear the Salvation Army Band
    Down by the riverside
    It's bound to be a better ride
    Than what you've got planned
    Carry a cup in your hand".

    - Less than Zero

    --
    "Kill 'em all and let Root sort 'em out"
    1. Re:Income ing Game designers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    2. Re:Income ing Game designers by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

      Yes, or the Bangles cover which is a damn fine version of the song, which was used in the film"Less than Zero" thus explaining the reference.

    3. Re:Income ing Game designers by Nyder · · Score: 1

      Yes, or the Bangles cover which is a damn fine version of the song, which was used in the film"Less than Zero" thus explaining the reference.

      The song is called "A Hazy Shade of Winter"

      --
      Be seeing you...
    4. Re:Income ing Game designers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, it's Simon and Garfunkel. Hazy Shade of Winter, 1966.

  4. Uh... by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

    But what if Steam's [unique selling point] was thousands or tens of thousands of games for free?

    Nice as it would be, that will hardly help Bethesda make the painstakingly crafted content for the next TES installment, now will it?

    Also, Apple is trying to defy the laws of nature. They're just unwilling to accept that computers have been able to do pretty much anything for decades now, and whatever the cost is will inevitably decrease to the point that the software will be more expensive (at least in terms of human labor investment, if not in monetary cost). It has already happened in the desktop area. Of course, Apple, being a HW company, will always try to make you think otherwise.

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
    1. Re:Uh... by Talderas · · Score: 1

      Painstakingly crafted? You are talking about The Elder Bugs, right? Er I mean The Elder Scrolls.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    2. Re:Uh... by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      The Elder Bugs

      Why do you think the Ancestor Moth monks are taking care of them? ;-)

      Also, wake me up when much more popular software like web browsers stops being exploitable at every competition. Then we can talk about the less-popular things with fewer developers.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    3. Re:Uh... by cyberchondriac · · Score: 1

      Well at least it's too late for them to muck up my Skyrim with in-app purchases. Imagine: Want that grand soul gem? $1. How about that Dwemer battle axe with a 60% stamina poison enchantment? $2. Hey, 25 cents everytime you want to fast travel... etc..

      That crap nickel and dimes you to death and you wind up spending vastly more amounts than you would have if the game was just paid for up front.

      --

      Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
    4. Re:Uh... by Samantha+Wright · · Score: 1

      I think the real mistake is that TFA thinks Valve cares about the success of the Steam box; there's no content that you can't get without paying Valve for hardware, so the idea of a Steam box becoming their main business is utterly preposterous.

      --
      Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
  5. problem is by arbiter1 · · Score: 1

    We pay same price for digital downloads as we do physical copies. Its a lot of BS cause digital ones are cheaper since they don't need to give you a box and dvd.

    1. Re:problem is by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      ...as long as the thing you're downloading is utter crap, of course the value of the disk and the paper packaging will be considerable in comparison.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    2. Re:problem is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I don't really care about that.
      The digital version is more convenient for me.
      No more boxes, no more swapping disks around
      No more going to the store or whatever.

    3. Re:problem is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The majority of the costs involved in selling a game (or most pieces of software for that matter) are not in distribution but in development. Those programmers and artists, and yes even publishers and marketers and other people involved in production all need to eat and pay their living expenses. Distribution is a trivial fraction of the costs involved so please do not expect significant gains there. Just putting that out there.

      I do not like where the gaming industry seems to be headed. If prices on pc fall as low as mobile where the only way to make up the difference is to sell in large volumes in an already crowded market, then things might become much more difficult for indies. A gamer might have 50 dollars to spend on games in a month, but he will be much less likely to spend precious time on 50 crappy games costing a single dollar each. Alternatively he might blow it all on micro transactions in a few highly addictive skinner boxes. Either way, not good for quality gaming.

    4. Re:problem is by blackicye · · Score: 5, Insightful

      We pay same price for digital downloads as we do physical copies. Its a lot of BS cause digital ones are cheaper since they don't need to give you a box and dvd.

      They don't need to pay any distributors, middlemen or retailers a cut either.

    5. Re:problem is by Sockatume · · Score: 2

      Have you been on Steam lately? Even when there's not a sale on, the prices are pretty impressive.

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    6. Re:problem is by jma05 · · Score: 1

      I have. Between Amazon, Gamersgate and Steam... I did not find anybody to specially distinguish themselves on price. Sure, Steam may have a sale when others don't and vice versa. But the base prices of digital downloads seem to often (with a few exceptions, understandably) be standard across all vendors. Until someone does a proper statistical analysis and shows otherwise, I will remain unconvinced at this argument.

    7. Re:problem is by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

      Which I never understood. Steam supposedly takes some generous, fixed cut.
      But many many games on Steam have a publisher. So does Steam take 60 percent off the top, and then teh publisher takes 60% off the top, and the developer gets what left?

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    8. Re:problem is by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      This is the point that a lot a lot of people seem to be missing when they talk about digital sales of music, movies, games, and books. The cost of the physical product is essentially zero. If you want proof, go down to your local dollar store, where you can buy any of these items for $1. That $1 pays for somebody to produce that book/dvd/cd (and many other items of similar complexity), ship it to the warehouse, ship it to the store, and pay for all the employees handling the product along the way. With Apple and other online stores taking 30% of the final sale, selling digital products may even get less money for the original creators of the product.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    9. Re:problem is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude, that's not how haiku work.

    10. Re:problem is by sixsixtysix · · Score: 1

      Bandwidth is way, way cheaper than packaging and retail distribution (especially if they distribute via torrent. where's my distribution discount?), so the costs should be less. that, and the fact that most physical goods can be easily borrowed, resold, whatever. taking away that should also lower the cost. I do realize this is about pc software, most of which is p.i.t.a. to resell, as cd-keys are now generally tied to an account, but hey, the account can be sold; license terms be damned. I also realize that because there are still physical goods, the digital distribution system has to pick up some of that slack, but what about when it's 100% download-only?

      --
      ...
    11. Re:problem is by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Development is a fixed cost which remains the same irrespective of how many copies the game sells...

      And this is largely why games and software in general are moving towards a free model. Publishers always got greedy, and would continue charging high prices long after the development costs were recovered resulting in extremely high profit margins, and this creates resentment among the customers.

      Other things like DRM schemes also create resentment, there are plenty of angry customers who paid full price for a game only to be unable to play it, or have to find a cracked version. This usually causes people to go directly for the cracked version and skip the broken paid version. Where a game is distributed free there is no reason to try and discourage copying (the opposite infact), and if a user downloads a free game only to find it doesn't work they will usually just delete it and forget about it rather than feeling sore about the loss of what to many people is a significant amount of money.

      And finally software moves towards a free model because it can... Hardware and services require not only up front development costs, but also ongoing costs for every unit sold whereas software can be infinitely replicated. A lot of software can also be reused, there are lots of ready made game engines out there including free ones and most publishers will reuse code and other assets from one game to the next.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    12. Re:problem is by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      "That $1 pays for somebody to produce....." No it doesn't. The dollar store is selling rejects, overstocks, lost shipments and such. Almost everything in there is a loss to the maker, not a profit.

    13. Re:problem is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, that's pretty much it, except the numbers are different. They are more likely in the area of 30% for Valve and 85-95% for the publisher.

    14. Re:problem is by NewWorldDan · · Score: 1

      Price seems to be about the same. For me, the big differentiator is the level of DRM. I avoid Steam as much as possible because it's a pain to let my kid play a game that I'm finished with. GOG is always my first choice.

    15. Re:problem is by dyslexicbunny · · Score: 1

      I imagine though that if companies want their games in a physical store (and for some reason they still do), they have to keep the prices the same. Why would I as a retailer be willing to make room for your products when you're selling them for less elsewhere and ensuring I can't get a sale?

    16. Re:problem is by jma05 · · Score: 1

      I agree. I have the same DRM concerns. If I can't get DRM free sales, I at least want DRM at install time only, without any mandatory account creation/association - which Steam does not offer. The only place I have tolerated Steam so far is for a few charity sales.

    17. Re:problem is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's usually 30%, but yes. That's exactly how it works. Steam takes 30%, middleware company takes x%, "publisher" takes 30-60%, people who do the ACTUAL work get handed the change, of which they have to pony up %.. THEN they get paid.

    18. Re:problem is by Cederic · · Score: 1

      No more boxes / discs
      Digital Convenience
      Retail games stores close

    19. Re:problem is by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Yes, Steam has some expensive games. However the fans keep pointing to older or indie games as proof of being cheap. AAA titles on Steam are still expensive. Steam has not made game prices cheaper overall, and is still the number one purveyor of DRM. Meanwhile GOG.com sells cheaper games with no DRM, mostly older and indie games of course, and has already run the race to zero since it has given away some games for free (Fallout series). Sure, some people got Portal 1 for free however it still comes with DRM and you will be unable to install and play it on a computer without Steam servers.

      I strongly agree here that digital downloads have not improved the cost for consumers. And yet before digital downloads we heard so much from publishers about how expensive they were to package up and distribute so that there were no margins left over to pay developers and keep studios afloat.

    20. Re:problem is by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Being a game dev is not a fast way to make money. The good developers seem to be hopping across many studios as the older ones go out of business or have layoffs. This is why it is interesting to see a new rash of games coming from kickstarter instead of the traditional Hollywood style top down investment. This is also producing several games with rather old-school designs and game play that publishers won't take a chance on.

    21. Re:problem is by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      For many games getting them at the store is still the only way for many customers. Ie, consoles with no internet connection (though this may be getting rarer, I still see several aisles full of console games at the stores).

      Asking that question is a lot like asking why people still purchase books and DVDs at retail stores when people can just use Amazon?

    22. Re:problem is by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      I have been on it lately. Still very expensive for many titles. The sales prices for some stuff is still more than I'd want to pay and I can get cheaper prices elsewhere. Seriously, I can find cheaper packaged games via Amazon and Amazon partners than at Steam, and cheaper digital versions elsewhere. Sometimes when something is on sale at Steam it is the cue to go out and see if other suppliers have discounts also.

      It is strange that I can get a game that requires Steam to run from a site other than Steam and end up paying less money.

    23. Re:problem is by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      GOG is great too if you want kids to experience good older games instead of the new style blockbuster games.

    24. Re:problem is by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      I think that depends on the item. There's many items in the dollar store that are specifically made for the dollar store and are continually restocked. They may not be as high quality as similar items sold in other stores but I guarantee that the producer, and everybody else in the chain is making money off these items.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    25. Re:problem is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure, some people got Portal 1 for free however it still comes with DRM

      Actually, it does not. Similarly to Half-Life 2 and its episodes, once Portal is installed, you can run it without the Steam client (source: steam.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_DRM-free_games).

    26. Re:problem is by RivenAleem · · Score: 1

      The people who do the actual work are paid wages for what they do.

      It's similar to how some investors get a building made. They put up the money, hire a contractor who hires laborers. Laborers never get a cut of the profits. Similarly, in movies, unless you are a mega star, you don't get a % of the revenue, if you are simply a camera man, you get a set wage.

      If you are a super mega star of a programmer (I'm thinking along the lines of John Carmack or Sid Meyer) such that your name ends up on the box, then you might be in a different pay system as the others.

      If you want your wages to be tied to the success or failure of the game, then you need to develop and publish it yourself as an independent.

  6. So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The SteamBox will be the new Ouya?

    Still not worth it.

  7. "Free" has ruined mobile gaming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Even now, the mobile faithful still cling to their hopes that someday mobile gaming will be as revered as console games, but their insistence? Nay, their obsession that games must be free, or at the very least cannot cost more than $1, has absolutely destroyed and incentive for companies to build better games. Why bother making an epic RPG or sprawling adventure game when you can pump out some random one-gimmick game or straight up clone in a few days and rake in the advertising money for little to no effort?

    1. Re:"Free" has ruined mobile gaming by jones_supa · · Score: 1

      All hope is not lost! Let's not forget that mobile gaming also means dedicated handhelds such as 3DS and Vita. The quality is good over there, and there are not many $1 gimmick games.

    2. Re:"Free" has ruined mobile gaming by Sockatume · · Score: 1

      I think you'll find that the people hoping for a future for mobile gaming and the people paying zero dollars for it are different groups entirely. A quick perusal of Touch Arcade suggests they favour those $5-10 console ports and things like Year Walk.

      --
      No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
    3. Re:"Free" has ruined mobile gaming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (Posting AC because I'm at work and I don't log in from work...)

      Why bother making an epic RPG or sprawling adventure game...

      When was the last time you played an epic RPG or sprawling adventure game? The vast majority of single player games can be completed in ten hours or less of game play and I would most certainly NOT describe that as "epic" nor "sprawling".

    4. Re:"Free" has ruined mobile gaming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://social.msdn.microsoft.c...

      Summary: over one million ad requests, got 21 euros. CPM of 0.03. To claim, line up, bend over.

    5. Re:"Free" has ruined mobile gaming by jones_supa · · Score: 1

      I don't see how Windows Phone could be counted as a dedicated handheld gaming console.

    6. Re:"Free" has ruined mobile gaming by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      After removing that "vast majority", you're still left with a number of games. Some are epic, RPG, sprawling or a combo. None of those sell for $1. By the way, I play a sprawling, epic RPG almost daily. Not hard to find.

    7. Re:"Free" has ruined mobile gaming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I bet the Italians miss the Lira. It was nothing to make a million a day.

    8. Re:"Free" has ruined mobile gaming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't see how Windows Phone could be counted as a dedicated handheld gaming console.

      To me that seems to be the only way to get regular people to choose an MS mobile device. Give complete access to all the original XBox games, for free. Charge for the right to play XBox360/ XBox1 games. People won't buy anything from MS until you can entice them into the MS 'store'.

    9. Re:"Free" has ruined mobile gaming by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      When was the last time you played an epic RPG or sprawling adventure game?

      Last year I played two of them. Skyrim and Final Fantasy 13-2. I was in fact a little disappointed in the length of FF 13-2, but it was still far more than 10 hours, and I could have spent many more hours leveling up to max and getting 100% on all the side quests. Right now I am playing civilization 5 and I probably have 200 hours into ONE of the several dozens of campaigns.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    10. Re:"Free" has ruined mobile gaming by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Possibly because it is very difficult to play games on mobile devices. Games on phones are essentially intended to be time wasters, something to do on an airplane or train or waiting in line. But they're not the sorts of things where you think "A long three day weekend coming up, here's my time to get in a lot of phone gaming." And the ergonomics just suck too; difficult to see screens if you're older, limited viewing angles, fingers too large for fine grain control, fingers in the way of the view, bad battery life while playing the game, etc.

    11. Re:"Free" has ruined mobile gaming by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      How about yesterday? Dragon Age Origins, and an MMO. Before that I did Fallout 3 and Fallout New Vegas. Last year I did the Baldur's Gate series, Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim. I've got the original Thief games up next in line, and Project Eternity when it's out. Etc.

      Actually, some of those sell for $5 if you shop around.

    12. Re:"Free" has ruined mobile gaming by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      I've got a counterclaim for you, who in their right mind would want to sit down and play an epic RPG on a mobile phone? I can't imagine the thought of trying to play one of those games on a tiny touch interface while sitting on a bouncing train or something similar. Remember how the future of movies was supposed to be mobile platforms, the same platforms no one uses?

      An epic AAA title is something to be enjoyed, something to suck you in and captivate your attention for hours on end. A mobile phone will never compare to the experience of sitting at the PC or infront of the console on a couch because the vast majority of use cases are for quick fleeting moments, pull out candy crush while at the doctors waiting room, play some flappy bird while on the bus, and as soon as you go home put down the "toy" and start playing some real games on some real hardware.

      I've even tried to install some older games via an arcade emulator and let me tell you unless a game is optimised for a touch screen is destined to fail, and no company will likely make a large serious game for a market where people have an attention span that may last 15min.

  8. Oh good. by GauteL · · Score: 1

    Now the "for sale" list will be an utterly useless way of finding a good deal because it will be filled with spam and god awful "freemium" games from the publishers. Every game will be continuously "on sale" and if Valve has any rules against this, the publishers will use the same tricks high street retailers use to always advertise a sale even in countries with marketing laws regarding sales (i.e. introduce a product at a ridiculously high price so that they can then advertise it at 50% sale the next week).

    1. Re:Oh good. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      > i.e. introduce a product at a ridiculously high price so that they can then advertise it at 50% sale the next week

      Which wont matter because the purchase price itself is all that people really care about.

      And if something is stupidly overpriced, nobody will want to buy it until it is as cheap as they think the product is.

      We all know the old steam summer sale effect... buy a bunch of things we may not even play "because they are cheap"... It isn't 'buy them because they are on special'.

  9. Sorry, but I call BS on this. by RogueyWon · · Score: 5, Insightful

    TFA is, I'm sorry to say, complete drivel. It ignores two key considerations.

    First, Valve's platforms - Steam-on-PC/Mac and the forthcoming Steambox console - are home platforms. Where the pay-to-win model has achieved some success (and even there, the successes are outweighed 100-to-1 by the failures) is on the mobile platforms, where people play for snatches of a few minutes here and there. PC and home-console gaming remains dominated by more substantial offerings, with more significant development budgets and (frankly) a more discerning audience.

    And the second point is just that; games cost money to develop. Quite a lot of money, these days. We're already seeing an increase in the RRP for games on the new consoles, which, irritating though it is on one level, is probably something the industry has needed to do for a while now. Long story short - nobody is going to be rushing to give these games away for free. If Valve wants a console, retailing at a per-unit profit, whose selling point is a mass of free titles (and I don't believe for a second that it does) then it will need to throw a massive, unprecedented subsidy at game developers. And that's just not going to happen. We've seen what happens when you try to launch a console whose selling point is the kind of games you actually can give away for free or near-free. It's called the Ouya.

    Which, as we all know, is doing just splendidly. Or not.

    What Valve's move does unlock the possibility of is smarter and more responsive pricing for games. And this is where there's real potential for the industry to do better.

    Historically, we've sold games as though they were movies. There's basically one price point when they're new and another for when they get a budget re-release. Ok, indies and the like have always played around outside that system, but the actually relevant commercial developers have had very fixed price structures. What Steam has moved towards - and seems set to move further towards - is pricing that can price games more accurately reflecting the value they offer, their review scores and their week 1 sales.

    Bricks and mortar retail stores sometimes try this, but the way in which they purchase stock and are insured on those purchases makes it a last resort for them. The ability to flex prices rapidly at the publisher level is much more useful. If you have an Elder Scrolls style RPG with a huge development budget and hundreds of hours of game-time, then go at $80. If you have an average sized shooter, perhaps in the $60-70 range. If you have a 2d platformer or sh'mup, then perhaps you should be thinking more about $20-30 for your first release.

    Nintendo, in particular, desperately need to learn this lesson. My theory on the unnoticed reason behind the Wii-U's continuing disaster is that it's just too obvious that Nintendo's pricing is vastly out of whack with the value their games offers. Ok, the $60 price-point might be ok for something like Super Mario 3d World, but is it really appropriate for 2d platfomers (Donkey Kong, New Super Mario) or HD remakes which sell for $30 on other platforms (Zelda: Wind Waker).

    No long slashdot post would be complete without a car analogy, so I'll say that game pricing needs to be less like movie pricing and more like car pricing. It should have a much wider range and be more responsive to features like production costs, quality, features, brand and image.

    1. Re:Sorry, but I call BS on this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Not to mention devs have always been able to set their own pricing, or chose to participate or not in sales. This is just a change to make it possible for devs to run sales, within limits, without having to interact with Valve 'manually' ("Hey valve handler, we would like to run a sale between...") in any way.

    2. Re:Sorry, but I call BS on this. by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

      Even these items are a little high, and only for the first few weeks. Steam has also become very aggressive are deep discounts relatively shortly after release. Skyrim is probably one of the least effected games I have seen so far, and it had OK discounts the year is was released and gets down to 66% off.

      So even AAAA games can be had for under 15 bucks a month after release, and the price or a generic steam key, from PWYW sales is only like 50 cents. Steam simply offers a wider range of games, for pretty much whatever you want to pay for them. That said, I think games across the spectrum are going down in price, and we will see even more affordable games in the coming years.

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    3. Re:Sorry, but I call BS on this. by tfranzese · · Score: 1

      There's nothing wrong with Nintendo's pricing. Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze is worth every bit its price which is $49.99 MSRP (and it's not been the first or even second first party title they've used a lower MSRP on). I'd have gladly paid $59.99 for DKCTF after having now played it; so much better than expected (especially because I never did get into Donkey Kong Country Returns; will have to revisit that). Comparing the HD remake of Wind Waker to the HD ports of other titles is disingenious; have you bothered to actually compare them? Have you bothered to see that there were also improvements made to the game both to fix issues players had with the original as well as integrating some of the Wii U's features?

      The problem Nintendo has is marketing as far as I can tell. Their games are as good as ever, and their hardware is better than ever. The problem is tools that read a book by its cover, and then share their insight with the world.

    4. Re:Sorry, but I call BS on this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is usually longer than a month for AAA games to get down to $15. It is unusual to see a AAA game go on sale for less than $25 within the first 6 months of its release. There are exceptions, I am sure, but those exceptions are not the normal case. Sales of 25% to 50% off are more common within that time frame.

    5. Re:Sorry, but I call BS on this. by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1

      No long slashdot post would be complete without a car analogy, so I'll say that game pricing needs to be less like movie pricing and more like car pricing. It should have a much wider range and be more responsive to features like production costs, quality, features, brand and image.

      So what you're saying is that Ubisoft titles should retail for fifty bucks while multiplayer-capable Ubisoft titles should go for five bucks. Gotcha.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
  10. Re:Who works for $0? by Opportunist · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    Good question. Who made Linux, again?

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  11. Re:Who works for $0? by deletedaccount · · Score: 0

    Is the answer Richard Stallman or IBM?

  12. Not the best example. by king+neckbeard · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I don't think that the iPhone and Android are the best model for comparison here. iPhone and Android games more or less filled the same niche as Flash games, which were already dominated by free.

    --
    This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
  13. Pay what you want & ethical microtransactions by advid.net · · Score: 1

    Some good games can collect a lot of money with ...

    - "Pay what you want" as in Humble Bundle (however there's a lot of games previously sold at a classic price)

    - Ethical microtransactions, which mean not needed at all to succeed in game, like cosmetic purchases in Path Of Exile.

  14. This seems to be the opposite of the argument by Chrisq · · Score: 1

    This seems to be the opposite of the argument in the real world. Here we say that supermarkets are bad as they force farm prices to be artificially low to get business. On the other hand farmer's markets, where people pay a small fee then sell their produce at a price they choose - we see as good. People say that this lets farmers trade based on quality.

    Why should it be the opposite on Valve - surely people with quality games will ask for what they see as a fair price?

    1. Re:This seems to be the opposite of the argument by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because in this case it's not separate entities. The "farmer market" as it were is located somewhere in the back of the Costco and you'd have to wade through about a billion free clones of Flappy Birds to even approach it. Obviously the "farmer market" prices never make it into the "circular" because they never trend as they never gain enough attention to achieve signal through the noise.

      If Steam goes this route and they make more of an effort than Google Play and Apple Store to highlight these games in some way then maybe, but otherwise you're looking for the few gems hidden amongst a billion fart apps.

  15. Dear $deity, I hope not by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Interesting

    99% of those 99 cent games are "tap the screen at the right time to watch a cute animation" one-trick ponies. While all right to waste a bit of time while you're waiting in line somewhere, it certainly isn't something I'd willingly pick up when I sit down to play a game.

    Also, TANSTAAFL applies universally, and hence also to gaming. "Free" games are rarely free. One of three things is almost certainly part of the deal:

    1. Handing over your privacy.
    2. Enduring endless streams of ads.
    3. Micropayments to keep playing.

    And usually it's more than one of them. Somehow I doubt I'll be the only one who will not enjoy this kind of gaming on a PC. When you sit down to play at a PC (or console for that matter), you don't want to play a one-trick pony game. You want to be involved, challenged, entertained. It's not just something you do to kill some time waiting, i.e. what mobile games are very often used as.

    What I could see is that we're going to see a lot more low budget games from independent programming teams that want to cut out the studios, either to avoid dependency or to avoid being told what to do (or both), people who want to make the game they make because they themselves want to see it come to life (let's be honest here, does anyone think those "freemium" games are something any developer WANTS to develop? Then whey should they be free?). They might even be inclined to sell it for a low price, somewhere in the vicinity of 10-30 bucks rather than 60+, while not offering any less gaming value and neither suffering from one of the three problems lined out above that "free" games usually have.

    But free, I doubt. Games are not like apples, they're not identical and only differ in price. You can't simply say "Oh, Game A costs 20 bucks and Game B costs 10, so I buy Game B". What if Game A is more what I'm looking for and Game B is nothing but a cheap knockoff of a game idea that has been trampled to death ages ago? Why should I buy Game B in that case?

    Games might get cheaper, and studios will maybe lose their position as kingmakers, but I highly doubt that PC gaming will go the way of mobile gaming. It's a very different market with a very different audience (or, rather, with an audience that has a different "taste" on PC compared to mobile devices, it might even be the same audience).

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    1. Re:Dear $deity, I hope not by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think it's so much a "Race to Zero" with Steam as it is allowing themselves to remain competitive. Steam has been facing some harsh competition from Amazon and sites like GreenManGaming, who put games on sale at prices below those on Steam both during Steam's own major sales and throughout the rest of the year. Before this change, it was convienient for most developers to only change prices during the major Steam sales, which meant that it was entirely possible to see a game on Steam for its full initial price up to five or six months after release, when most other retailers had discounted it.

      This change is actually a good thing, because it means less deceptive "discounts" on games. I can still remember seeing Call of Duty 4 on sale for the first time, something like three or four years after it had been released. The game still had a base price of $50 that hadn't changed since release, and went on a seemingly huge 75% discount to $12.50. In reality, the game had long since been bargain-binned by most retailers, to the point where you could probably pick it up for less than that.

    2. Re:Dear $deity, I hope not by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      Sure a lot of the cheap games are terrible, but there's some pretty good stuff out there for cheap. $2.99 for Rayman Jungle (MS Surface 2) run was one of my recent purchases I'm pretty happy with. There's way more playability to that game than a lot of recent console games which cost upwards of $60. It's kind of a repetitive game, but each level is unique, and there's not point where they ask you to spend more money.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
  16. A minor quibble... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    They already had the power to control pricing. What steam is letting them do is to discount prices separately from steam's official sales events. They could always artificially simply reduce their price from $50 to $10, if they so wished. The only real difference is now they have the ability to have it done as a temporary sales event ("80% off! one week only!") rather than changing the official price.

  17. More bullshit.. by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

    ... the reality is most games today are clones or don't have enough development money/time behind them to be particularly interesting or deep. 9/10 games released today are crap or released way before they are even ready (battlefield 4, etc) and these are supposed to be major fucking releases. The whole game industry is run by incompetents, conmen and morons.

    The reality is developers/publishers themselves are flooding the market with low quality games and putting all sorts of shit in their games that lower their value (DRM/Microtransactions/etc). There will always be a place for good games, the problem is there are still many problems to solve in development costs and tools to drive down game costs and make building large AAA projects better. The game industry has a long way to go.

    1. Re:More bullshit.. by Greyfox · · Score: 1

      I've had much more luck with the sub-$20 market on steam than I have with the AAA titles. They tend to be a lot more innovative and creative and it's no big deal if I drop a couple bucks on a game and don't care for it. I've put about 7 times the hours into Rogue Legacy that I played AC3 for before getting bored with it. Minecraft started the whole trend for me, and I've probably played that more than all the AAA titles in my library combined.

      --

      I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

  18. I never liked insane sales by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Steam has for me drastically lowered the value of a game, because while it is ONE thing to see game slowly decrease in price over a number of years, it is another to find prices slashed to 1/4 of the price seemingly at random.

    Well okay then, I won't buy unless there is a deal going on... but I want to play right now, thepiratebay! Always the best deals!

    I kinda like to know that if I pay a premium for a newly released game, that it is "worth" it and that it is not going to be on a sale for the fraction of the price a week later. It ruins the value of a product because it shows the product has no inherit price but is rather just a charge put on the product for the sake of it.

    Same as say a public toilet at a station, they can charge 1 cent, a 100 cent or a 1000 cent and it has nothing to do with the cost of providing the service, it is just an amount someone thought up. If a product can be sold for 1/4 of the price on week, it never had full price value to begin with, that was just a sucker price.

    I don't want to be a sucker. I am one but I don't like my webshop telling me that I am one.

    Because I can tell the game producer they are suckers too by downloading the game for free.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

    1. Re:I never liked insane sales by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you buy the game digitally, it not longer has any value at all once your purchase it. For something to continue to have value, someone must want and be able to purchase it from you. Digital prices should be lower than physical copies if for no other reason than you have pissed all over first sale doctrine and no longer have rights to it (among all the logistical discounts of obtaining digital copies.)

    2. Re:I never liked insane sales by drinkypoo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well okay then, I won't buy unless there is a deal going on... but I want to play right now, thepiratebay! Always the best deals!

      Those sales have changed nothing, because you have not changed. You're still willing to violate copyright in order to get the game for free. As long as that is true, pay-to-win games are going to continue to proliferate.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:I never liked insane sales by Mitreya · · Score: 1

      Steam has for me drastically lowered the value of a game, because while it is ONE thing to see game slowly decrease in price over a number of years, it is another to find prices slashed to 1/4 of the price seemingly at random.

      What difference does it make what the price of the game is? The re-sale value of the game is zero because (as far as I know?) one cannot sell or even give away Steam games after purchase.

      As an owner of a bunch of used games (both PC and console), I think that's too bad.

    4. Re:I never liked insane sales by EvilSS · · Score: 1

      If you buy the game digitally, it not longer has any value at all once your purchase it. For something to continue to have value, someone must want and be able to purchase it from you. Digital prices should be lower than physical copies if for no other reason than you have pissed all over first sale doctrine and no longer have rights to it (among all the logistical discounts of obtaining digital copies.)

      As opposed to physical PC games (because that's what we are talking about here, steam doesn't sell console games) which have a rich resale market. Wait, no, they don't. It's against the EULA and most are tied to your Steam/MS/Origin/whatever account anyway so.... I guess there is value in physical media as coasters, but really, is that why you invest in games?

      --
      I browse on +1 so AC's need not respond, I won't see it.
    5. Re:I never liked insane sales by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Wait, no, they don't."

      Wait, no, they do.

      "It's against the EULA"

      Which is unenforceable. If you spend the time fighting it.

      "and most are tied to your Steam/MS/Origin/whatever account anyway"

      Which account you can sell. Plus those are very few games.

      Plus you can get the cracked version and use that, and when you sell on, sell both copies. If they're "not selling the game, but licensing it", then the game is not being pirated (it has to be for sale for it to be pirated), and you're selling the license with the code that isn't purchased anyway.

    6. Re:I never liked insane sales by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The lengths people go to in order to justify their piracy never ceases to amaze me. Piracy is not a great huge evil, and not the end of the world as MPAA/RIAA/BSA etc would try to have everyone believe, but it is also not some noble endeavour or great battle for justice.

      If you want to pirate, then pirate, but at least be honest with yourself instead of rationalizing your actions to put the blame on someone else:

      - The game has DRM so clearly that means I am justified in pirating it.
      - It was made by [insert dev here] and they are bad / don't love kittens, so I have no choice but to pirate the game.
      - I really didn't like the game's box color, so if the dev wanted me to buy it they should have thought about that instead of forcing me to pirate it.
      - The game is bound to go on sale at some point, and then I will be a sucker for paying for it, so I have to pirate it, my hands are tied.

      Seriously, just man up and accept that you pirated the game and that you are piggybacking / leeching off of everyone else who paid for it. Everyone gets to make their own choice on this, it doesn't make you the devil, but just don't pretend your choice was somehow forced on you or is particularly justified.

    7. Re:I never liked insane sales by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      What difference does it make what the price of the game is? The re-sale value of the game is zero because (as far as I know?) one cannot sell or even give away Steam games after purchase.

      One cannot. One can technically associate each game with a different account (with a different email address) and then sell the account, but this is against the ToS. German courts required Valve to permit resale of Steam games, but I believe this has since been reversed.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    8. Re:I never liked insane sales by DMJC · · Score: 1

      Actually I pirate a lot of things, but I also dropped over $1250 on Star Citizen, and I bought Rocksmith 2014 on Steam and PS3 at Full Retail pricing. Why? Because they are games I really believe in and actually want to play for a good many years after buying them. Most of the stuff that I pirate is like Mac Donalds. It's cheap, it's nasty, it has no lasting value. But $1250 for Star Citizen? Hell that's a great deal because I love Wing Commander, and that game is going to basically be Wing Commander Online, and I know the developers can make an amazing experience for me. If game developers want customers to throw big dollars at them they have to stop making junk products and start making deeper connections with their players. Where is the Burnout 3/Paradise hybrid game I want? Free-form city driving with a crash mode? Game developers are out of touch. The ones who aren't get my money thrown at them.

    9. Re:I never liked insane sales by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Game developers are out of touch. The ones who aren't get my money thrown at them.

      I think a lot of game developers saw what happened with games like Quake which actually gave us everything we wanted; they spawned all kinds of quake-based games which didn't return any income. And they decided they would like to get paid when people play their games.

      I also think the writing is on the wall for AAA games. It's only a matter of time before the Free and open engines become viable competition, because of cooperation. There's no secrets, and everyone can learn from everyone else's accomplishments. Sadly, this will probably be the last area of software in which the FOSS world surpasses the closed-commercial.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    10. Re:I never liked insane sales by SillyHamster · · Score: 1

      I kinda like to know that if I pay a premium for a newly released game, that it is "worth" it and that it is not going to be on a sale for the fraction of the price a week later. It ruins the value of a product because it shows the product has no inherit price but is rather just a charge put on the product for the sake of it.

      Welcome to the reality of economic value. There is no inherent value to any game. It's worth a subjective amount to each person, and it's up to the companies how they want to chase those consumer dollars - whether by setting a single price or using sales to hit a broader section of the demand curve. .

      You really shouldn't treat your entertainment dollars as an "investment" - becaues it isn't. There is no lasting value for spending $60 on Super Mario Brothers or $30 for Skyrim.

    11. Re:I never liked insane sales by EvilSS · · Score: 1

      Used physical PC games may show up on fleabay but there is not a thriving market for them like there are for console games.

      --
      I browse on +1 so AC's need not respond, I won't see it.
  19. Gaming is a commodity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why should the video game market be immune to the same trend towards commodification that other market suffers from? Oh that's right, gamers are very special flowers!

    1. Re:Gaming is a commodity by chill · · Score: 1

      You know, that would explain the excessive amount of "fertilizer" coming from gaming companies these days.

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
  20. Re:Who works for $0? by jones_supa · · Score: 0

    Good question. Who made Linux, again?

    Some guy who began working on Linux while being sponsored by the solid social welfare system of Finland*. These days for Linux Foundation, through which big companies give big bucks, essentially paying him a nice salary.

    *) As a side note, these days you can't even "pull a Linus" anymore (slacking in an university, coding, drinking beer). The graduation times and student benefits have much stricter limits.

  21. Re:Who works for $0? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    He said "amazing games", not Tux Racer and a dozen tetris clones.

  22. Re:Who works for $0? by njnnja · · Score: 1

    Just as royalty/government/oligarchs have been patrons of the arts and "bread and circuses" throughout the ages, companies like Facebook, Apple, Google, and Amazon can highly subsidize the development of games. So game development would be paid for by a lump sum "commisioning" by one of these large firms, in exchange for platform exclusivity.

  23. Summary makes no sense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How does giving developers _more_ control over the pricing help Valve to lower prices?
    Why would individual game publishers want to help promote Steam with free games, lowering their own revenue stream?
    Quite the opposite makes sense. Developers may increase prices (maybe only through offering less "sales"), because Valve will not enforce low prices and sales upon them.

    Maybe prices will eventually fall, but not for the reasons stated in the summary. Much more likely due to the free-to-play, pay-to-win trend and because people are natural cheapskates.

    1. Re:Summary makes no sense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How does giving developers _more_ control over the pricing help Valve to lower prices?
      Why would individual game publishers want to help promote Steam with free games, lowering their own revenue stream?
      Quite the opposite makes sense. Developers may increase prices (maybe only through offering less "sales"), because Valve will not enforce low prices and sales upon them.

      Valve could not enforce lower prices until now either. That is why some (even old) games are never on sale at a significant discount, the price can only be reduced with the publisher's agreement.

      It may seem counter-intuitive at first, but discounts can in fact allow for more income in the long term, because they increase the number of copies sold, and this effect persists for a while even after the sale ends (because of the increased publicity the game gets). The mere fact that there is a temporary discount can convince some people to quickly buy a game they would otherwise have ignored. Also, a game with a greater number of players (previously popularized by sales) is more likely to attract even more players.

  24. Re:Pay what you want & ethical microtransactio by addie · · Score: 1

    I agree with the spirit of your comment. I've bought plenty of Humble Bundle games, and have no issue with making in-game purchases available if it has no effect on gameplay.

    However I take issue with labeling a subsection of microtransactions unethical. It may be annoying, and insulting, and even borderline illegal as regards false advertising, but there's nothing inherently or fundamentally wrong from a philosophical standpoint about charging extra for gameplay elements.

    Now that doesn't mean that such publishers shouldn't go fuck themselves seven ways from Sunday, but that's another issue altogether.

  25. EA and Ubi already controll their prices.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    via their respective websites (Origin, Uplay), and their prices are much higher than an average game on Steam.

    On the upside, it they are enticed back to Steam because of this, maybe I won't need their crappy ecosystem anymore, which is a win.

  26. apple hardware sucks for gameing and the price is by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    apple hardware sucks for gameing and the price is a joke next to other pc systems that are better off for the same price or less.

    Valve better not go that way.

    Most Imacs have weak video cards for there screen size.

    mini only has intel on board video.

    mac pro very high price and workstation video cards that are not really the best choice for gameing also that 256GB storage can go fast with a lot of games.

  27. Developers are not going to make games for free by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

    Just because it would help Valve out.

    Yes games are getting cheaper, but even if it is 50 cents, they will always cost something.

    --
    Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    1. Re:Developers are not going to make games for free by wed128 · · Score: 1

      It's not about helping valve out, it's about the market forcing prices to be low. it's capitalism working. The games will cost what they have to, and not more (this is the idea anyway)

      The fear is that the presence of free games will cause an overall drop in quality; mobile gaming is used as evidence of this.

  28. No DRM for me. by grub · · Score: 3, Interesting


    I'll pay on GOG.com rather than free with DRM.

    --
    Trolling is a art,
  29. Re:Who works for $0? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    And this is why I support our social system. Yes, a lot of people use it to be lazy, but sometimes something great comes out of it.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  30. lies by Tom · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Free is the dominant price point on mobile platforms

    No, it isn't. free-to-play is, which is something else entirely. Most F2P games are considerably more expensive then traditional games if you buy the equivalent of what would've been in a box. It's the razor-blades business all over again. It is full of lies and deceit and psychological warfare on the customer who is lured in with "free" and then shaken down for every penny with addictive (instead of fun) gameplay, click-bait and carrot-and-stick tactics.

    It is, in two words, distasteful and dishonest.

    --
    Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    1. Re:lies by Darinbob · · Score: 2

      Depends there are some F2P games which are real bargains and which don't shake you down. Some MMOs even. And those get tarnished because of people who think that every possible version of F2P follows the same model.

    2. Re:lies by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      No entirely true. A lot of games on mobile platform are based on advertising revenue alone, then there's games where free to play is actually free to play. It's not pay-to-win, but rather pay-to-keep-playing-at-the-pace-i-want. Take a look at Candy Crush. People can drop an incredible amount of money on it, you need one more move to win the level? Well you can buy that move for a price, you are out of lives and can't wait 20min for a life to regenerate? You can buy a life. End of the level and don't want to play three puzzels to unlock the next one? You can move on for a price. I haven't dropped a dime on the game, yet there are people who spend a small fortune playing it.

      The only time free-to-play is actually deceitful is when you have to pay-to-win.

    3. Re:lies by Tom · · Score: 1

      No, your example is actually a good example for the evilness of "f2p".

      Of course you could just walk away and not drop any money. It's not like they put a gun to your head. Except that psychologically, that's exactly what they are doing. They are putting you into a situation where you are a) drawn in and b) stand more to lose in time and effort than in money.

      This is extortion, plain and simple. These games are intentionally designed to put you into these situations so you part with your money.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    4. Re:lies by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      This is no more extortion than an advert for CocaCola on a hot day. No one is FORCING you to do anything. Yes it's intentionally designed but it's no more being forced upon you than the chocolates at the counter of a gas station. As for losing more in time than money, you fail to realise that it's a game, you can just put it down and you won't lose anything. No one is forcing you to sit there waiting for a life to re-generate, and in many cases they exhibit signs of simple paid for cheats.

      Only the weak minded will actually part with money in this case, the same that fall for adverts of the latest sexiest ultra HD TV, or just have to put one more coin in the slot machine.

    5. Re:lies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No one is FORCING you to do anything

      So why is pay2win models not ok as well? No one is FORCING you to win in those games either.

      It's just a game. You're not really losing anything when that noob one shots you because he paid. Just put the phone down.

      Only the weak minded will actually part with money in this case, the same that fall for adverts of the latest sexiest ultra HD TV, or just have to put one more coin in the slot machine.

      Careful with that comparison. Gambling is heavily regulated or outright banned in most places.

    6. Re:lies by Tom · · Score: 1

      This is no more extortion than an advert for CocaCola on a hot day.

      I agree in principle, though not in degree. Let's be honest here: All advertisement is psychological warfare, and it is very, very imbalanced. It's millions of dollars in research and design vs. the usually untrained mind.

      However, in the game there is also immersion, which is intentionally abused, and a situation that was artificially constructed. It's more like the soda stand in the theme park which is intentionally placed at exactly the distance from the intentionally way-too-salty french fries stand at which you realize that you're quite thirsty.

      Only the weak minded will actually

      This is what we all hear all the time when it comes to advertisement, and I'm quite certain the advertisement experts are giggling so much they can hardly catch a breath. This false belief is one of the core reasons advertisement is still legal and not very heavily regulated. It's the Emperor's New Clothes situation - as long as that meme is out there, most people won't admit that they are, in fact, influenced by advertisement.

      But you are. More than you believe. And claiming you aren't only proves denial, not freedom.

      --
      Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
    7. Re:lies by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Of course I am, but to a degree only. By weak minded I'm talking about the same suckers and fools who are separated with money by every salesman at the door. Everyone is subtly influenced but there's a long stretch between wanting a coke right now because I just saw a great advert and running to the car to go buy one. Maybe it's because I got brought up on games that actually challenged the mind and were actually hard, games which made you fail over and over again, but when I come to the end of a candy crush level and I have 1 move to complete I feel like I have failed and been beaten, I don't feel some compulsion to pay money for an extra move so I can advance.

      My counterproof to you claiming we're all simply in denial : just go back 3 days to the slashdot article which said something along the lines of 95% of in game sales come from 5% of people.

      Free to play is free to play, and until I actually part with a single cent when I play there's very little you can do to convince me otherwise.

  31. Get what you pay for by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

    At some point, developers will realize that there are people like me who will gladly pay full-price for a great game that gives good value.

    I do not play F2P games because I find them creepy. Even the best, like Planetside 2, leave a bad taste in my mouth.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  32. I'm surprised that this is "a move" by Kartu · · Score: 1

    In my naive world developers already had control over pricing.

  33. I just love how these stories ignore games like GT by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 1

    I just love how these stories ignore games like GTA 5. Massive investment cost followed by massive profits. All with a simple box priced product.

    But hey, what is a billion in sales these days eh?

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

  34. Not remotely the same by rebelwarlock · · Score: 2

    "I'm putting my game on sale for a couple weeks" is not even close to "I'm moving to a freemium model". Lovell is an idiot, and shouldn't be taken seriously.

  35. Steam boxes are free.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm sure a large majority of steam users built their own computer, and will repurpose a current computer or build their own stream box.
    I can only imagine buying a controller from valve.

  36. Rather sell more than make stuff expensive by YoungManKlaus · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Because as a game developer I see two main motivations that are essentially the same as every other artist:
    1) making enough money to live
    2) bring your stuff to as many people as possible

    so if I have the choice of selling 10Mio copies at 5€ or 1Mio copies at 50€ for me the first option would clearly win.

  37. Re:Who works for $0? by jones_supa · · Score: 1

    I agree completely.

  38. That is not a coherent theory. by seebs · · Score: 2

    Apple makes a ton of money off app store licenses, and Valve makes their money selling software. The steam box is a device for getting people to buy games; it's never going to be even close to the profitability of selling games.

    Selling software is a great deal for the vendor because the per-unit cost to them is effectively zero. Any theory that the vendor is going to try to eliminate the cost of software so they can make all that money on hardware is a stupid theory. And I don't mean "after sufficient research you can disprove it", I just mean stupid straight up.

    --
    My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
    1. Re:That is not a coherent theory. by CrustaceanSoup · · Score: 1

      Yes, the Steambox connection is a complete non sequitur in this article. I don't see any connecting premise presented between "Valve is releasing a Steambox" and "Valve will push Steam towards free games". There are arguments presented in the article that Steam will end up like mobile platforms, but they have nothing to do with Steambox; they're along the lines of "Valve gets money from IAPs or sales so they don't care" and "market pressures will push prices to $0"

    2. Re:That is not a coherent theory. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have to agree. The steam box is more to funnel more buyers to steam. If the games were free, then steam wouldn't get a cut. I also wonder if will start cutting into Windows share. Since if you can get a few email and office products on the STEAM OS then I could see a lot of gamers jumping from windows to steam.

  39. Free games have always been the norm by Immerman · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The question is not how many freemium games there are, it's whether their existence is impacting the market for purchased games. In ages past shareware and freeware had the lions share of the PC gaming market (at least among every gamer I knew in middle and high school, and most of my older friends as well), for the simple reason that nobody had $30 to throw away on a game that *might* be good. Consoles were the only place that purchased games dominated, for the simple reason that there were no free games available - but everyone I knew who had a console also had a huge library of free PC games.

    And frankly these days the odds of a given pay-up-front game actually being good seems to have fallen dramatically. High production value != a game worth playing, to say nothing of the vast oceans of shovelware. Of course freemium games are also far more expensive and annoying than shareware ever was, but at least you get to see if the game is any good before you pay anything.

    --
    --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    1. Re:Free games have always been the norm by tlhIngan · · Score: 2

      The question is not how many freemium games there are, it's whether their existence is impacting the market for purchased games. In ages past shareware and freeware had the lions share of the PC gaming market (at least among every gamer I knew in middle and high school, and most of my older friends as well), for the simple reason that nobody had $30 to throw away on a game that *might* be good. Consoles were the only place that purchased games dominated, for the simple reason that there were no free games available - but everyone I knew who had a console also had a huge library of free PC games.

      Well, on consoles, It started with DLC, which was innocent enough - you played through the content, they provided expansions as DLC rather than brand new games, etc.

      Then some craftier ones noted that they could offer DLC on the get-go, so-called Day One DLC where you can purchase upgrades and such right at the start.

      It took Android (credit belongs to Android, really) to take freemium to the next level by offering the games for free and having users buy more smurfberries or play credits or whatever, which now extends into the console world with purchased addons and all that.

      And now you have Microsoft and Sony in the last gen catching up by being able to offer free games that weren't a marketing gimmick.

      Nowadays, it looks like it's used to buy your way into the game - don't want to grind? $1 will get you a bunch of upgrades and gold and whatever.

      Thankfully, some people get it - Titanfall, coming out next week will have no day one DLC or paid upgrades, the only DLC planned is maps.

      So at least one company gets it - you don't spend $60 only to be bombarded for $20 season passes for addons the moment the game is released.

      And it's such a bad problem the EU is considering motions towards telling when free really means free (with paid addons). Because a lot of mobile games are now making it such that you get a demo, pay for level 1, pay for level 2, etc.

  40. Re:Pay what you want & ethical microtransactio by advid.net · · Score: 1

    [...] I have no issue with making in-game purchases available if it has no effect on gameplay.

    Many people are like us.

    I would say that I'm rather tight when it comes to buy any software, games included.

    But when the game is really free, with hours of entertainment and good support, I'm happy to buy those silly cosmetic stuff for fun and to support its development.
    I paid Path Of Exile some $35 the month I started to play. I think I've never spent that much for a game !

    I've read that I lot of people do so. When those purchases are rendered in game as cosmetics we see the support of the players for the game, that's nice.

    I believe that I could be the future for a substantial fraction of the games, but not all of them.

    [...] labeling a subsection of microtransactions unethical [...] may be annoying, and insulting[...]

    Yes, that's right.

    I've just used the same wording as advertised, I understand it may be unfair.
    However I really don't like a situation where I'm lured into something labeled "free" and once there I realize that nothing really cool will happen without paying for a few things.
    Saying "I don't like" is an understatement, I won't describe the feeling.

  41. Re:Who works for $0? by Talderas · · Score: 2

    You can put a bunch of monkeys in a room with typewriters and eventually get works that rival that of Shakespear. That doesn't mean it's sane to fund a massive arcology of monkeys and typewriters to try to get great works.

    --
    "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
  42. Re:I just love how these stories ignore games like by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

    The problem is, GTA 5 requires investment, vision, creativity and work. Those things aren't part of the corporate model any more.

    Just put up a game engine and call it an "early access", "MMO", "co-op", F2P and charge people for breathing.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  43. The article is ridiculous by Morose · · Score: 1

    Everyone seems to be missing the main point of the pricing control change by Steam. The companies were always allowed to price the games at whatever initial price they wanted, so you could just as easily have a Free-To-Play game now as you could a year ago or more. The difference is that companies are now allowed to make their own Steam Sales. That's it. I really don't see how anyone can make the jump to that highly illogical conclusion.
    Additionally, Steam has rules in place that allow the sale to only go for a maximum of 2 weeks and they can't have overlapping sales to muddle things up. All this does is give more control to the developers, which can only be a great thing IMO.

  44. And tied to a permanent internet presence. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Of course, you may not be required to be on at all times, but you will be 100% unable to use the product if you don't regularly connect: otherwise how would you pay your in-app purchase?!?!

    So now the cost of your game includes $60 for internet connection each month, only there so you can pay for the game.

    Can you defray your cost there to Steam? After all, markets will charge you for the costs they incur for a credit card transaction, and that $60 a month is a cost you incur for the transaction to be "in app purchase".

  45. Knee-Deep in the Dead by tepples · · Score: 2

    There's a right and wrong way to implement in-app payment in a video game. The wrong way is the mobile version of Dungeon Keeper. One of the right ways is to provide one free-to-play episode that ends on a cliffhanger, and then a one-time payment to unlock the rest of the game. This model is called "shareware", and it was a big success for Doom.

  46. If pay to skip waiting turns off 10% of gamers by tepples · · Score: 1

    Perhaps 10 percent of gamers saw the "pay to skip a 24-hour wait" trend in recent free-to-play video games and decided to abandon video games in general.

  47. Ten wrinklers multiply cookie production by six by tepples · · Score: 1

    You are talking about The Elder Bugs, right?

    You mean the wrinklers keeping my cookies nice and clean?

  48. Customers with single digit GB/mo cap by tepples · · Score: 1

    but what about when it's 100% download-only?

    We'll handle that when it happens decades from now. Customers who live too far from the CMTS or DSLAM to get DOCSIS or DSL are on satellite or microwave Internet plans, which are usually limited to 5 to 10 gigabytes of transfer per month, and a single AAA game can be bigger than that nowadays.

  49. Living-room-friendly case by tepples · · Score: 1

    You still need to buy a living-room-friendly case and components that fit inside it lest you incur the wrath of the SO.

  50. Maybe BS, Maybe Not by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I too doubt that it ends up being a "race to zero." However, Valve's business with steam is much like any other app store, they just take a cut of the sale and carry on with life. What this developer-set price allows is for more rapid changes, or even a breakaway from the typical pricing of round-to-the-nearest-$10-and-subtract-a-few-pennies that has been prevalent for the better part of 30 years. I can't dig up references at work (games and related sites are blocked), google for the impacts that steam sales have on developers. EA and the big boys are focused on return in the fewest copies, with an assumption that they will sell at least some set number (x million) units. I read somewhere that the devs of Torchlight made more in a week of a Steam sale than they did in some months leading up to it. When you no longer have to worry about production costs of disks, cases, boxes, artwork, etc... and instead the minimal costs of distributing electronic copies, each sale has a much higher percentage going to the devs/distributor. Cut out the big-name distributor, and you'll hit that profit boundary much quicker. While we likely will never see it, I'd imagine that if you released a new AAA title for $20 instead of the usual $60, you would likely see more than a 3x increase in sales. Get a good game priced into the impulse buy range of $5 - $10, and watch it fly off the virtual shelves.

  51. Valve hasn't started anything of the sort by GrumpySteen · · Score: 2

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F...

    The free-to-play model originated in the late 1990s and early 2000s, coming from a series of highly successful MMOs targeted towards children and casual gamers, including Furcadia, Neopets, RuneScape, MapleStory, and text-based dungeons such as Achaea, Dreams of Divine Lands.

    But even that's wrong. MUDs date back to 1987.

    Free to play games have been around for 27 years and they haven't destroyed the market for premium games. Valve letting game developers set their own prices is not going to suddenly make the people who have been willing to pay for premium games stop paying for them.

  52. Google did NOT create Android by Stan92057 · · Score: 0

    Google did NOT create Android. Please AC, do not misrepresent the facts

    "Quote" Android is an operating system based on the Linux kernel,[12] and designed primarily for touchscreen mobile devices such as smartphones and tablet computers. Initially developed by Android, Inc.,which Google backed financially and later bought in 2005, "End Quote"
    Backed with money and created physically are 2 very different things. Give credit where credit is due Please.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    --
    Jack of all trades,master of none
  53. It's been said before... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Free to play" is the scammiest thing destroying good, well thought out games. They're all clones of clones of other games with different graphics, but at the core, the same damn game. Hobbit, Camelot, Dragon's of Atlantis, Galaxy Online, and the billion other copies.

    Let's not forget the ultimate symbol of this crap, created from the ashes of a once great game: Dungeon Keeper. Log in, click 3 things, collect resources and log off for 24 hours because that's how long the task will take to complete. OR pay $50 to complete the tasks early and play longer.

    So, you can end up dropping $150-1000 on a "free to play" game, get nowhere and have little enjoyment because it's a click'n'wait. THat's not fun, it;s boring, it's poor design.

    Give me a great game that costs $60 up front and items/expansions in game that I can buy at my lesuire. That's how to do it smartly.

  54. Re:Who works for $0? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That doesn't mean it's sane to fund a massive arcology of monkeys and typewriters to try to get great works.

    Of course not. We have the Internet now. We don't need typewriters. The monkeys can submit cat videos, slashdot comments, and all sorts of wonderful content from almost wherever they are (so we don't need an arcology either)

  55. Say no to freemium! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sorry but that is just stupid to try to go "freemium"!

    I don't want to see any advertising in games.
    I don't want to pay now and then to get past some point in game because without paying my character/vehicle/unit doesn't have required gear or skills.
    I don't want to play in multiplayer games where some players just happen to pay 50€ so they can get everything without basing them to skills in each round.

    Just do the smart move and drop the new games prices from 50-60€ to 25-30€ and have older ones available for 15-20€ and then give indies change to have same prices as AAA studios. This just to keep games free from ads and game fair where idiots can't buy itself trough.

  56. Meh.. by sstamps · · Score: 2

    Maybe I am just old-school, but I don't see the attraction to F2P games (in terms of alternate monetization methods -- not totally free games). I would much rather pay a fair (but not exorbitantly high) price up-front for a game I think I would like, or have heard about, or even played the trial version of, rather than downloading for free, and dealing with micropayments, in-game advertising, or other bullshit when I just want to relax and get a little entertainment, an escape from all that crap.

    This is the model I plan to use for all my games as well, and I have no plans to use Steam in their distribution, either.

    --
    -SS "Teach the ignorant, care for the dumb, and punish the stupid."
  57. Make sure you read the dev comments by Sarusa · · Score: 1

    If you're going to read the article, read the comments (on Gamasutra). Other devs point out that you've always been able to set your price on Steam games - it just takes less intervention to change it now. You could always launch a free or 99 cent game there. The Steam market is not the mobile market (thank god).

  58. Race to microtransactions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    screw that!

  59. Third Option by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    3) Profit Maximization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profit_maximization). 7Mio copies at 9.95€

    The profit line between a 5€ and 50€ price is not a straight line. In fact, it is likely a skewed bell-curve.

  60. When to quit by tepples · · Score: 1

    You do what you have to do, you build your experience

    I'm aware of that. But I'm still unsure of when to quit my day job as a data integration programmer outside the video game industry. When to quit depends on two things: 1. how much money I should expect to need to bring with me to Austin, Texas, to look for a job, and 2. how to ensure enough experience to get my foot in the door once I have moved to Austin.

    If you want to be a haute cuisine chef, you don't stay in podunk...you move to a big city.

    I'll take you up on this analogy. Someone seeking a career as a chef can start by waiting tables at a local restaurant franchise and climb to store manager, and that will at least allow gaining experience before having to move. What's the video game industry equivalent of that?

    So quit asking how to get into the fucking industry

    I don't want into the porn industry; I want into the video game industry. :p

    you've been told many times.

    By whom? I ask this multiple times because I want other people's views on how to prepare for relocation and how to build a portfolio.

  61. Free != Good. by DiEx-15 · · Score: 1

    How many "free" clones of Flappy Bird has emerged since the maker RAEGQUIT? Out of that number: How many are actually good and aren't complete shit or buggier than a roach motel?

    How many "free" games are just a clone of another game that is a clone of another game? (Hint: Bazinga... err... Zynga games and King Games are nefariously bad at making a clone of a clone of a clone... ad infinitum.) How many of those clone's only difference from the original game is that you have to pay RL cash in order to continue despite it's bogus clam that you don't have to pay to continue?

    How many "free" games are nothing more than a HS Student's feeble attempt at making a game?

    Long story short: Free doesn't always equal good. There is always a catch and sometimes you get what you pay for. So if you paid shit for something, don't complain about the smell you got in return.

  62. quality vs quantity by zennling · · Score: 1

    maybe this will show the game makers that charging $90+ for a half finished game isnt a great idea when their competitors are charging $10 for a better product thats not this years version of a hashed out tired franchise. the competitor might make less with each sale, but sell a lot more to make up for it. also, shouldnt the market should equalize itself, finding a price point that punters are willing to pay for a quality game? in mobile-land, i believe thats currently $3-5.

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