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Religion Is Good For Your Brain
Hugh Pickens DOT Com writes "Sheila M. Elred writes in Discovery Magazine that a recent study has found that people at risk of depression were much less vulnerable if they identified as religious. Brain MRIs revealed that religious participants had thicker brain cortices than those who weren't as religious. 'One of the worst killers of brain cells is stress,' says Dr. Majid Fotuhi. 'Stress causes high levels of cortisol, and cortisol is toxic to the hippocampus. One way to reduce stress is through prayer. When you're praying and in the zone you feel a peace of mind and tranquility.' The reports concluded that a thicker cortex associated with a high importance of religion or spirituality may confer resilience to the development of depressive illness in individuals at high familial risk for major depression. The social element of attending religious services has also been linked to healthy brains. 'There's something magical about socializing,' says Fotuhi. 'It releases endorphins in the brain. It's hard to know whether it's through religion or a gathering of friends, but it improves brain health in the long term.'" (Read more, below.)
"Listening to sermons and reading religious works like the Bible may also invoke a cognitive benefit. "You're exercising your higher cortical function, thinking about complex concepts that require some imagination," says Harold G. Koenig, director of the Center for Spirituality, Theology, and Health at Duke University and a professor of psychiatry. According to Koenig the benefits of devout religious practice, particularly involvement in a faith community and religious commitment, are that people cope better. "In general, they cope with stress better, they experience greater well-being because they have more hope, they're more optimistic, they experience less depression, less anxiety, and they commit suicide less often. They don't drink alcohol as much, they don't use drugs as much, they don't smoke cigarettes as much, and they have healthier lifestyles. They have stronger immune systems, lower blood pressure, probably better cardiovascular functioning, and probably a healthier hormonal environment physiologically—particularly with respect to cortisol and adrenaline And they live longer." So where does that leave non-believers? "Out of luck, I guess," Koenig jokes. "Actually, I would suspect that people doing the types of things like religious people do — socializing, doing similarly complex cognitive tasks, would have similar benefits. But it is interesting that religion provides that whole package of things that people can adopt and pursue over time." Dr Dan Blazer says the study is very interesting but is still exploratory and that spirituality may be a marker of something else, such as socioeconomic status. "It's hard to study these things," concludes Fotuhi . "It's why research has stayed away from them. But there does seem to be a strong link between spirituality and better brain health.""
You can go pray to your invisible sky daddy. I'll just continue believing in sanity and meditation.
A thinking person should investigate religion, but not necessarily buy into it.
The Discovery article makes it pretty clear towards the end that it is not religious belief, but religious activities, that are likely responsible for the cognitive benefits.
Its not so bad as long as you can keep the fear from your mind.
and it keeps your arms in good shape too!
One way to reduce stress is through prayer.
And in 2014, we also call it meditation. We have also learned, you dont have to be religious to meditate.
Religion makes you stupid. In particular the ability to recognize your true situation is something the mental pathogen needs to degrade in order to retain its ability to infect and spread. Hence all perceived gains come at a heavy price: You become less human and both free will and rationality is partially suspended by the malicious meme. The claim that this "improves brain health" just shows the effect at work. It is a misdirection that stems from the defensive strategy of the pathogen.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Yeah. I guess we could argue semantics here.
Religion is the opium of the people.
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
And you're looking at it through one of those big fancy Perspex displays you can see at the local zoo. Most of the ants are running about, doing their daily jobs and generally taking care of what needs to be done.
Then there's a group of ants that meet every couple of days in some remote cave and do strange meaningless things. These are the same ants that tend to break down and appear to do absolutely nothing under stress- it looks like they might be thinking about something really hard, but it's difficult to tell. They seem to do this a lot but nobody really knows why.
What would you say about the behaviour of those ants? What do you think God thinks when he sees his creation unable to cope and doing the same thing?
So if you could actually make yourself to believe any old religious nonsense, you'd be happier in a fantasy world rather than be slightly worst off in reality? I'd go for reality any day.
than a sick genius?
Ignorance is Bliss.
Well known fact. Still wouldn't go on and promote ignorance, or say that it is good.
Nothing to see here, move along.
Researchers have found that some people under the influence of opiates, alcohol, with frontal lobotomies, those who have suffered certain types of brain injury, or born with a genetic mutation which causes the brain to naturally release abnormally large quantities of 'happy chemicals', also reported feeling 'happier with life' (at the time of measurement) despite their situation (from the point of view of an impartial observer) suggesting otherwise.
You know those guys who are super sane, have no suicidal thoughts, the guys who detonated explosives on busses and trains, and highjacked those planes? Or those sane people who for centuries thought the best solution for the evil eye or magic was to burn people alive, or stone them to death? centuries? lol. i mean millennia. sane, level headed individuals :) fantasies are great escapes, especially when they are of an all knowing all seeing violent psychopath that can get you in the day, or in the dark who has a track record of a body count in the millions.
...to a "higher authority" is pretty damn stressfull in itself. Are there any Gods out there that don't require some type of worship or submission to their will to avoid being punished in some manner? Am I the only who feels that what they demand is more human than Godlike?
Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
I just can't get past the fact that it's a lie. Anyone who can look beyond that amazes me.
..., that Religious people are more likely to be pig headed ?
And somehow that makes it true?
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New evidence suggests that they can help many with injured legs retain upright mobility.
Lisa Miller have a spiritual agenda.
Here is her TEDx talk about love and stuff: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...
Also this study is in contradiction with this study:
Being Religious or Spiritual Is Linked With Getting More Depressed
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.u...
From Lisa Miller:
http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.co...
"We previously reported a 90% decreased risk in major depression, assessed prospectively, in adult offspring of depressed probands who reported that religion or spirituality was highly important to them."
From Being Religious or Spiritual Is Linked With Getting More Depressed
"A key finding of the study, conducted in several different counties, is that a spiritual life view predisposed to major depression, especially significantly in the UK, where spiritual participants were nearly three times more likely to experience an episode of depression than the secular group."
Lisa Miller have first to explain this contradiction. Maybe some people get cortical thickness from religion, and some don't. I don't have access to Lisa's article.
http://www.mueller-public.de - My site http://www.anr-institute.com/ - Advanced Natural Research Institute
Shocking.
And somehow that makes religious claims true? Reading Game of Thrones is very enjoyable for me but I've never demanded anyone start a real war for Cersei's fictional c***.
Believing that movies are "real" make them enjoyable, but not true. All the crying, pain, emotion shown is just an actor in front of a lot of cameras and people, and probably a green screen behind, but still you feel like it is true, Do the same with religion, suppose that there exist a meaning, luck, justice, etc in life, even someone that you can ask for help and that you can see his hand through confirmation bias. But don't take it too seriously because you know its false. You don't do things that could put your life or of others at risk because you saw someone in an (obviously fiction) movie doing it, take the same attitude regarding religion. Neither you should follow people that claiming that that fiction movie/book was real do things that affect other people lives.
http://contest.bodybuilding.co...
To be religious, you got to turn your brain off. An unused, virgin brain will likely look better than one that was used for critical thinking.
...when it is religion itself that is causing you stress?
"But remember, most lynch mobs aren't this nice." (H.Simpson)
-- Joe
Correlation does not mean causation. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pu...
In other news, lobotomies are good for people. The less you think, the better you feel. See the full story on Fox News. :P
But seriously, If the results are really more about behaviors, then the REAL problem is that current society does not adequately provide similar social outlets or activities for people who don't happen to believe in imaginary sky beings.
It may be that it helps in the short term, but what about in the long run?
When the stressed individual need to be waned off the childhood delusions all over again?
Ignorance is bliss.
It would be more accurate to say 'stress is bad for your brain' than 'religion is good for your brain'. You don't need religion to remove stress, as such it is a placebo really, doing nothing for the underlying cause. I'd also argue that the whole 'fire and brimstone' BS actually increases stress.
Well...we can break it down and have a debate but I have shit to do.
This is my take away from all of this, community and social safety nets help people cope with stress and pressures of living. After all, there's no fun loving community of Atheists that just share life in their unification of the disbelief in god/s.
Now go hug baby jeebus, get a prayer rug, some holy book or a cow if it makes you feel better...you may find that it's the people around you that make the difference rather than anything else.
Colour me shocked - an article that's troll-bait for people opposed to religion.
From the article (and the summary): "A thicker cortex associated with a high importance of religion OR SPIRITUALITY [my emphasis] may confer resilience to the development of depressive illness"
So, a different way to read this is that spiritiuality, not just (or not even) religion) can make a difference. I've seen it myself, and it's been shown (no source here) that when people have something "bigger than themselves" in which to believe, it gives them access to strength that wasn't readily available to them before.
I'm not talking about how people use relgion as a shield to be assholes. I'm not talking about how "foolish" it is to hold to a make-believe deity. I'm speaking about how some people derive stength from their faith.
"It doesn't matter what you believe in; just believe" I think is what Sheppard Book said to Cptn Reynolds.
Meditation provides the same benefits as prayer, without turning you into a blithering fanatic!
Universal Unitarian Church. It should be perfect for all you liberal kiddies here on slashdot. I'm wishing they would be a bit more comfortable to center right people, but hey, their church, their rules. Atheists and Pagans worshipping with christians and nothing but global warming and social justice getting shoved down your throats. A win win for the typical slashdot patron!
One way to reduce stress is through prayer.
Sex and alcohol work pretty well too. And they are arguably a lot more fun.
I'm immediately reminded of the "news" articles about about the "religious archeologist" who found a sliver of iron from a site in Israel, and pronounced they had found a nail from the crucifixion. What a complete pile of bullshit you get anymore when some social science dumbass tries to figure out anything.
Fascism: An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization. See also: NAZI's
Or alternatively, people with these attributes (which may actually be positive in any other context) are prone to religion.
Barclay family motto:
Aut agere aut mori.
(Either action or death.)
Religion has found itself at the very root of many, many conflicts throughout our history, with religious wars raging on for hundreds of years. Countless lives have been lost due to this.
THAT is an activity we now want to call a anti-depressant?
And people have the gall to call atheists evil for lacking faith.
Harry Potter defeated Lord Voldemort, always watches over me, cares for me and will rescue me if necessary.
Is this a delusion or strong religious faith that will prevent me from mental illness? Where do we draw the line?
Do the stories have to be very old and part of our culture? Does the argumentum ad nauseam suddenly gain validity?
Bullshit dear henry bullshit that is religion explained in plain simple English .
Nothing more nothing less.
Religion has also been very good for quantum physics, cosmology, geology and biology. The saying, "God does not play dice" has been very important in elucidating just how strange quantum theory is. In cosmology, because the big bang theory is so compatible with Christian theology, scientist have given it extra scrutiny and tried to defend alternatives much more vigorously. In geology, rigor has been given a boost by odd ball dating schemes based on scripture that oppose an old earth. And, in biology, evolution has needed a more rigorous development owing to religious opposition. Perhaps more fundamentally, with its sorting of existential questions into high priority, "In the beginning" being a starting point, focus and curiosity on foundational questions have been maintained over ages.
This thread will draw out the "I hate religion" crowd, who get down modded for being flamebaity, and they also like to down mod pro-religious comments because they disagree.
Clearly, religion is the key to happiness:
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-i...
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/i...
http://media.dumpert.nl/foto/4...
You are welcome on my lawn.
I've got a book by Isaac Newton called, "Optiks" that will give you all of that, without making you want to go out and kill non-believers.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Cats think of themselves as God.
Wow. That's a load of bullshit.
Not to invoke an argument, but the TFA talks about listening to sermons and reading the bible.
No. Here is what it says.
"Harold G. Koenig, director of the Center for Spirituality, Theology, and Health at Duke University and a professor of psychiatry"... author of "The Healing Power of Faith", "Faith and Mental Health"... "Listening to sermons and reading religious works like the Bible may also invoke a cognitive benefit, Koenig said."
I.e. Faith guy says maybe faith good for brain.
Also, that Discovery article is crap.
That "One recent study, published in December of 2013 in JAMA Psychiatry" - no it wasn't.
And which study does this sentence refer to? The supposed December 2013 JAMA one (actually published in February 2014) or the 2011 one?
And while a 2011 study found a shrinking of the hippocampus among people of certain religions, Koenig, a co-author of the study, points out that no one has replicated that work yet.
Cause, it either says that Koenig is a co-author of the JAMA study (which he isn't, but which is no made clear anywhere in the article which doesn't even name the study it discusses) and he disagrees with the data from the 2011 study...
OR, he is a co-author of 2011 study (which he was) which says that certain religious people have a shrinking hippocampus.
With which he disagrees as well, pointing out "no one has replicated that work yet".
Koenig is essentially saying "Fuck my study which shows how religion may actually be bad for your brain. Don't look at it. Nothing to see there. Not replicated. Bad study. Bad!"
Also, everything Koenig and that other guy who had nothing to do with the study (he apparently has not even read it) but they asked him to comment on it anyway, Dr. Majid Fotuhi, said about the social effect... pure bullshit.
From the actual study:
Importance of religion or spirituality, but not frequency of attendance, was associated with thicker cortices in the left and right parietal and occipital regions, the mesial frontal lobe of the right hemisphere, and the cuneus and precuneus in the left hemisphere, independent of familial risk.
Going to church does not matter. How much you THINK that religion or spirituality matter to you matters.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
"Religion is the opiate of the masses" -- Karl Marx
When life sucks (which, face it, is most of the time for most people), religion provides a break from reality. Whether it's better for your brain to be disconnected from reality or to have to accept depressing reality without any cushion is a matter of debate.
I tried this whole 'religion' thing, several times. The last time I tried it? It was literally killing me from the stress that it was creating in my life. I had infections that wouldn't heal until I finally had enough of all the bullshit and got away from religion, religious people, and all the arbitrary nonsense and hipocracy it's completely full of, then my health started turning around. Come on, people, look around you: Religion is just another tool being used to control people's lives and to further political agendas.
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
Must be religion-soliciting day. Is this secretly Steve Harvey's work? Do I have to check my "moral barometer?"
'One of the worst killers of brain cells is stress
In other words, life eats your brain.
This is incredibly bias, I could attribute these same benefits to read a book any book as long it engages your brain. These is no link here to religion being good apart from the Bias of the author.
For even better results read the menu in a Bar, it seems to fit the same criteria as church.
The problem is people have mixed spirituality(knowing something exists and waiting for you beyond this current living plain but can't be explained but you can feel it) with politics(religions; Jewdism, Christianity, Islam and are all cults) which is intended to control the mass. Scientist claim that even animals have spiritual experiences.
You want to know how religion(cults) started just look at Scientology.
... just don't get hooked.
Dear Heavenly Me,
Thank you for this food, thank you (Me) for this humble camode,
Please take care of my finances, and maybe maintain my truck so it doesn't breaketh down.
You're so great,
Forever and ever,
Ah men.
- - - -
("God" is in each of us)
"Be the change you wish to see in the world"
"Hope in one hand and sh!t in the other, see which fills up first"
ha ha
Oh, and in case you missed it: http://www.fox.com/watch/183733315515
The government wants you stupid, so it finances religion...
While it may be fair to say that prayer has this effect, what is prayer? Meditation. Introspective meditation, a form of secular meditation has been under intense scientific study and has been shown to have greater effects on the brain than prayer. It's even heavily endorsed by everyone's favorite Atheist and neuroscientist Sam Harris
Brought to you by Carl's Junior.
Nobody with a brain has ever had religion.
Religion helps people to cope. By praying and unburdening themselves to a high power filled with the majesty of divine authority and omnipotence, the prayerful absolve themselves of responsibility for the problem before them, its solution, and the consequences of their actions. It is little wonder that Karl Marx is often quoted: "Religion is the opiate of the masses." There are few people less responsive to the stimuli that life presents than drug addicts as evidenced by the wreckage that their lives become. Religion can be just as debilitating and damaging to our lives as drugs as evidenced by the millions and millions of dead killed in the name of some divinely inspired war - jihad, crusade, etc.
The article may have actual basis is science in that the study may actually show a link between certain behaviors and good brain health. The Discovery article buries that in a white wash of religious based bull shit with the authors enthusiastic encouragement. Here's a good example of what I mean:
"“There’s something magical about socializing,” Fotuhi said. “It releases endorphins in the brain. It’s hard to know whether it's through religion or a gathering of friends, but it improves brain health in the long term. And it’s also been shown that people who are introverted and don’t participate are more likely to get Alzheimer’s.”
So is it socializing or sermons? And why do introverted religious people have a higher incidence of Alzheimer's? Surely god likes them too?
Here's the agenda from the author:
"So where does that leave non-believers?
“Out of luck, I guess,” Koenig joked. “Actually, I would suspect that people doing the types of things like religious people do -- socializing, doing similarly complex cognitive tasks, would have similar benefits. But it is interesting that religion provides that whole package of things that people can adopt and pursue over time.”
So the science links certain behaviors to brain health and the "scientist" shows his bias in the publication of the results.
The article and the folks behind it are desperately seeking scientific validation for having religion. They want a particular religion too as they ignore Hinduism and Buddhism and the other meditating religions in this study. They are looking to show that the christian god is the right and proper god because science said so. I'll be you two of Jupiter's moons that this gets used in the push to put creationism or intelligent design in schools.
Religion is better for your brain... if your brain is broken in particular ways.
Religion is not better for your brain, if your brain is not broken in those particular ways.
'Nuff said.
The entire trick to religion has always been peace of mind. You don't have to think about the hard stuff. Of course the flip side of that is being a bad person.
I'd rather have morals with depression personally.
I have been a devout religious person for over thirty years, and I have been depressed for most of those years. I write into this moshpit of hate for anyone here who might struggle with depression. The religious beliefs of the people around you can uplift you, but they can just as easily degrade your situation until you are depressed. My father beat me from the age of 4 until the age of 13. He didn't do it because of religion, he beat me because I annoyed him and he wanted to shut me up. The religion he chose to line up with merely gave him a convenient excuse. I have had PTSD for most of my life, with verified uncontrollable physical symptoms and many health issues, and have lived most of my life in fear of others. Most of the time it feels like I have never been happy, that there is no point in my life that I could travel back in time to (were it possible) where I would feel a healthy sense of well-being.
I tried many religious disciplines to get rid of my health issues. They all failed.
Eventually I did find a therapy that worked, it's not religious at all. I'm approaching normal function in life, I'd say I'm depressed 2/3rds of the time. If you find that your medication isn't working like it used to and you have to increase the dose, understand that your mental health problem isn't caused by a Prozac deficiency in your diet. The drugs work by shutting off the message your body is trying to send. Your body makes you depressed to solve a stress problem. It's using depression so that you won't lose your reason. Any means of regularly obtaining a "mental reset" will honor the body's request, all the skilled relaxation therapies are just ways to do that. The "prayer" mentioned in the article is one of those relaxation methods, it is not your typical oh-shiat prayer (which believe me I've tried). It's a mantra that you recite over and over again, until it doesn't mean anything anymore, and you relax and get a mental reset.
And of course, my religion didn't forbid any of these kinds of therapies that helped me get well, but the prelates of my religion did, calling them infidelic, probably because I'd do them on the day I'm supposed to attend religious services, and no money would wind up in the plate. There are people who don't care about their fellow man but go to (or hold) religious services for instant credibility and to hook up with like-minded members of the opposite sex, if I just shocked you, I'm sorry. Religious services are not automatically a gathering of saints.
None of this has anything to do with whether you believe an invisible man in the sky is your friend, because any depressed person will tell you that you can have friends and still be depressed. And as to the question, "if he's so good and powerful, why didn't he fix your little problem", the notion of every religion is that such help is not automatically and freely given without condition. As it happened, I tried to follow the tenets of my religious faith, and as it happened I met someone in that faith who showed me this therapy, and as it happened I got better. So I could dare to say, "see, it works", but what's the point of that? I'm not going to say it's going to work for you, because I can't know that, especially because most of you have already insisted that it can't work, and so it's sure to not work for you, because you will see to it that it won't, so that you can be right, and miserable. Let's skip all that, you have the right to remain miserable, I'm not calling that into question.
But if you're bitter because you've tried the failed religious remedies that I've tried, just skip ahead to the skilled relaxation therapy. Then you can ponder your spirituality when you've got a better handle on your situation. If you are religious and are afraid your soul is in danger if you try yoga, meditation, self-hypnosis, etc., then the skilled relaxation method you want is called progressive muscle relaxation. It is religion-free, and you can still take your medicine.
And crutches make it easier for the lame to walk.
The article implied that in contrast to the religous people, the non religious people they interviwed were "streesed" using drugs, smoking cigarettes etc etc...
What a conveninet way to push your agenda through the results of your "study."
I hope he dies like Roland did.
Religion is good for your brain as long as some evil fuck doesn't decide to cut your head off because his religion tells him to cut your head off because of your religion.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
As a researcher, I spend most of my time at work being wrong. I don't have the luxury of proving a past insight/thesis or always trying random combinations. It can wear on you after while. It is hope in what is currently unproven (the goal) that keeps me at it. Hope with as much help from reason as possible. Spending each day operating in reason alone is not enough to handle the big questions. When we operate so far out from the known, how do we know we are moving away or towards our goal? Hope is a muscle. The more you exercise it, the more you can sustain operating even further out on the edge of what is known. Those who belittle hope and claim only reason is needed, have no framework to deal with the unknown. And the hope that does operate in secret in their mind is treated as a skinny stowaway begging for scraps.
Yes, believing in some soothing bullshit lessens your stress levels, which has all kinds of benefits.
Believing aliens from outer space will save you at the last second will certainly make going into war easier to cope with as well.
Is there a difference between these? Not really, no. It's just that one is socially acceptable thanks to millenia of indoctrination, while the other one strike almost everyone as ridiculous bullshit.
See, the problem with believing in nonsense is that even if it reduces your stress and makes you feel happy and whatever else, ultimately, you still believe in nonsense and with all the downsides that has. There've been a few recent articles on that. For example, the "let's-destroy-the-planet-for-profit" mindset would have a much harder time if its proponents wouldn't believe in an afterlife and would realize this life on this planet is all we've got.
I've had this argument a hundred times, and it never changes. Yes, religion does some good. And for every good it does, it does two evils.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Because...
"Being Religious or Spiritual Is Linked With Getting More Depressed"
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.u...
So, as usual, pick your side and go with it.
Todays Bookreligions and the way they are praticed are a watered down stoicisim for the mentally challanged and little more.
And of course a well-rounded philosophy of life will help you battle depression and and assaults on your spirits in general.
I'd bet money that stoics and zen-buddists and the like show the least likelyhood of depression, especially compared to followers of abrahamic religions.
Get Seneca, read it and be done with it. All the benefits of religion and then some without any of the downsides.
My 2 cents.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
Guys, did you know that schizofrenia is good for your brain? Your cortex gets thicker! PS: It isn't even clear what the benefits to a slightly thicker cortex are (human cortexes range from 2.4. to 2.7mm), if there any at all. In fact, most posative traits such as intelligence have been attributed to a THINNER cortex, not a thicker one! http://cercor.oxfordjournals.o...
When you're praying and in the zone you feel a peace of mind and tranquility.'
You can get the same effect from simple meditation and breathing exercises, in fact that's really what prayer is, a form of meditation.
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
Just curious how many people have read Robert Pirsig's book(s) and subscribe to his ideas?
In a nutshell his conclusion is that the irreducible factor of life and the universe is a creation force he calls Quality. Another way to look at it is if everything is a state transition diagram, the mysterious factor is something to be found in the transitions (dynamic Quality) rather than in the states (static Quality). Akin to some aspects of Zen and Eastern philosophy. He goes on to develop these ideas to say that you can build up increasingly complex static Qualities like atomic elements, compounds, even life, from what seems like nothing... but that intangible creative dynamic Quality is there, and yet not so easy to pin down. It isn't so much a thing as it is a force.
Right or wrong I find an odd sort of comfort in this understanding.
Actually it would be more appropriate these days to say "TV (or media in general) is the opiate of the masses"
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
At my ex-Zen Sangha teacher said, "Many people start this practice out of some sort of pain."
My sister-in-law suffered a horrendous physical attack on her (days in intensive care with gallons of blood being put into her) and afterwards she became a stereotypical born again Christian - as in getting in your face about it and going door to door preaching - in the SOUTH no less! - asking if they heard the word of Jesus - ugh! She was very hard to be around with. even her clergy mother had issues with her.
Anyway the point being is that maybe there's more depression with spiritual participants because more depressed people go there looking for some sort of comfort and connection. When you are depressed, people do not want to be around you; which feeds into the depression and there's a place where folks are around you and interact with you no matter what, well, there you go.
If the research shows that relaxing, avoiding stress and using your brain to think about imaginative things is healthy - say so. I'll happily increase the time I spend fishing and soaking up sun at the beach while reading a scifi novel.
None of that stuff has anything to do with religion per se though.
As a researcher, I spend most of my time at work being wrong. I don't have the luxury of proving a past insight/thesis or always trying random combinations. It can wear on you after awhile. It is hope in what is currently unproven (the goal) that keeps me at it. Hope with as much help from reason as possible. Spending each day operating in reason alone is not enough to handle the big questions. When we operate so far out from the known, how do we know we are moving away or towards our goal? Hope is a muscle. The more you exercise it, the more you can sustain operating even further out on the edge of what is known. Those who belittle hope and claim only reason is needed, have no framework to deal with the unknown. And the hope that does operate in secret in their mind is treated as a skinny stowaway. If you rely solely on reason you are just another customer of the known, buying the latest toy. To be original, you have to have experience with the unknown. There are a lot of people trying to handle the unknown. Some have abandoned reason. Some fight the engine of their hope and wonder why they are depressed. Hope is a muscle.
You are correct, I have no understanding of religion or the good work that churches perform in the name of God, such as http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-la-church-settles-final-priest-abuse-case-740-million-spent-20140218,0,7997563.story
inb4 the masses of butthurt nerds. oh wait...
"yes precious, you are the master of the universe and nobody is smarter than you. now lay down and go to sleep before mummy slaps the shit outta you again."
i've always thought singing was the mechanism for the physical bennies: improves breathing/blood oxygenation...and where else can u sing out loud in public w/o appearing loony;-)
the bible also sez get ur drinking water _upstream_ from ur latrine, so of course all religions evolved thru natural selection;-) in a pre-literate world how do u pass on such survival tips? oral traditions wrap them in mnemonic narratives, and how better to enforce their practice than gods' gonna zap u (b4 lightning was understood, which wasn't all that long ago*) if u don't?-)
the downside is when those narratives are elevated to blind obedience/conformity...
*like the response of an undamped resonant system to a step function: we're still oscillating to the introduction of fire ffsake...prometheus caused global warming;-)
By way of contra-evidence, if following Jesus is a religion, I note 3 books by people who say they did so as a result of originally setting out to prove it was wrong.
* Lee Strobel, The Case the for Christ, 1998
* Albert Henry Ross (pseudonym Frank Morison), Who Moved the Stone, 1930
* Josh McDowell, More than a carpenter, 1977
"In the quest for truth we must train ourselves to view our favourite ideas just as critically as those we oppose"
I like to dance. Much of dance is derived from tribal rituals. I can still enjoy dancing without fear of affecting the weather.
Prayer, meditation... it all boils down to thumb sucking.
indeed one can be moral w/o religion, but most people need help, and what better way to motivate them than thru fear of eternal damnation...words create images in our imaginations;-}
Normally I'd be the first person talking down about religion, but there's something I discovered recently that seems to support this theory. I have a friend who was brought up Catholic but has since become Atheist. He unfortunately suffers from depression and in a recent discussion with him, he told me how much he misses being religious. Not because of the church or the religion itself, but because of the religious community which used to be his main support. He has unfortunately never been able to find a comparable replacement outside the church.
al got it wrong: god_is_the dice of the universe;-) "acts of god" are all random events...and in texas football is a religion, based on a random event generator: the points on the oblate spheroid guarantee random bounding, unlike roundball;-)
and having an imaginary friend means u r never alone, very comforting...
Yes this individual's may be happier in the short term but they do so at the cost of denying reality. By denying reality they are doing nothing to combat the problems of the world. Apathy is the effect of religion. Why worry about seeking justice or fixing the big problems in society when sky daddy promises to do it for you. Religious people sacrifice the well being (and happiness) of the of the species for their own personal comfort and permission to be apathetic.
The great thing about religion is, if you look at it with a critical mind and a little bit of reason, it's fairly quick and easy to dismiss as pure fantasy.
Thomas Aquinas would (and has) argued that by following reason you would conclude that it isn't. If you want a pretty good introduction to Thomist thought I highly recommend "Aquinas" by Edward Feser: http://www.amazon.com/Aquinas-Beginners-Guide-Edward-Feser/dp/1851686908
He lays out the arguments and some common "objections" (which are often straw man arguments) to them.
Faith and reason have never been thought of as mutually exclusion by the Catholic Church (just ask any Jesuit): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fides_et_Ratio
Of all the nay-sayers of religion, they all start to pray when in a foxhole facing their imminent demise. Secular humanism tanks when the rubber meets the road.
The true situation is that the brain is designed to find patterns and assign agency. "Free will"... behind all decisions large and small lies emotional processing. Few of us could watch a good horror movie and not feel tension. Last figures I've seen have 41% of americans believing in ESP, 37% in haunted houses, 32% in ghosts, etc, etc... The exploitation of irrational feelings is the foundation of the powerful Public Relations campaigns that lead us into flocking to buy iPhones or supporting wars. The irrational is at the core of all Art, Music and Poetry, and without it we would no longer be human.
People with real intelligence, education and an understanding of science and its place in human academics take both of you about as seriously as the other: which is to say not very.
Please, tell the world what those people, with real intelligence, education and an understanding of science and its place in human academics believe.
Do they believe in a supreme power that influences everything, do they not believe in such a thing or are they in a continuous state of uncertainty between belief and non-belief because they can't or don't want answer that question?
They might not care much about these topics and ignore them. Galileo Galilei ignored it until he was forced by the circumstances to revoke his theories.
What when it comes to science classes where theories, that are supported by science, have to compete with a thousands of years old story? Creationists claim to teach a balanced view, yet they only push their creation story and don't care much about the hundreds or thousands other stories, that also exist.
I iz Jedi
Placebos are more effective than prescribed antidepressants.
You are misinterpreting what you probably heard somewhere.
http://www.straightdope.com/co...
A review of 177 studies involving more than 24,000 depressed patients found placebos alleviated symptoms in 38 percent, while antidepressants reduced them in 46 percent. Psychotherapy alone reduced symptoms in 47 percent, about the same as antidepressants but usually at higher cost. Best of all was combining antidepressants and psychotherapy, with a 52 percent success rate.
A review of 96 studies published from 1980 to 2005 concluded the placebo effect was likely responsible for 68 percent of the improvement seen in patients taking antidepressants. Another review pegged it at 84 percent. What's more, the placebo effect appears to be growing over time.
Some research says there's no medicinal benefit. A European study of "active placebos" (where the placebo mimicked the drug's side effects) found no significant difference between placebos and antidepressants. The latter were just particularly persuasive fakes.
The fact that the placebo effect is increasing the more they keep prescribing them is most likely due to overprescription of antidepressants to misdiagnosed patients.
When you treat everything with an antidepressant of course it will eventually show the same (or even lesser) effect as placebo - CAUSE YOU'RE NOT TREATING THOSE ACTUALLY DEPRESSED.
Same thing would happen if they started putting people's arms and legs in casts for every single bruise.
It would show that in most cases, immobilization via plaster cast is no better than placebo as a treatment for healing injured arms and legs.
The fact that they are achieving similar results with psychotherapy alone indicates that those are not people with chemical or hormonal issues.
They are probably just "sad" and not clinically depressed at all. OR... looking for a "high".
They go to a psych, fill out a questionnaire and answer "yes" when asked if they are depressed.
Or answer a question. Same thing.
Same method is used to determine if those pills worked - they fill out a questionnaire and answer "yes".
If they used that method for diagnosing cancer, everyone who ever went to a doctor would be diagnosed with cancer.
And there'd be some AMAZING results regarding all the things that completely cure cancer. From foot-rubs to lava lamps.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
Well, a drunk man is always happier
...from a lobotomy, but I don't want one of those either.
It is very depressing especially when you invoke religion.
I think it is better for people to be depressed that deluded.
specifically, "this make a judgement that it is better off not being depressed in this world"
maybe someone can see the whole thing, but not with beta
I wouldn't venture that many here are willing to live in delusion in order to trick their brain into de-stressing. The only correlation here is that reducing stresses on your body and brain helps your overall health. Religion may, in some cases, achieve these goals but are certainly not the only way. I'll take my lifestyle choices on my own terms, thank you.
Brought to you by the Artificial Idea Factory.
or protesting soldiers funerals, nothing like elevating yourself or your group by knocking others down, it's the oldest trick in the book and continues to thrive because it works.
If it's true then believing in any mythological imaginary being should have the exact same effect. Maybe they deal with stress better because they're more naive and think an invisible man in the sky will make it all better. Maybe because non religious don't believe that, they concept the full weight of a problem that they have to deal with on their own. Just saying, her conclusions seem to be formed to make the data meet her preconceived notions and biases towards religion. This all just kind of smells fishy.
The pasted part in the summary mentions that people who are religious do less drugs (written to include alcohol and cigarettes as separate things). I wonder if a person more open to attempt new things such as drugs may be more inclined to question other core beliefs, both of themselves and the society they are within.
Or that people who are driven to drugs to escape the reality of their life (whether real or perceived harshness) may also be less inclined to believe that there is some deity looking after them in some way.
Unless your brain happens to be in the body of a woman, because then you're screwed.
Sig
Appended to the end of comments you post. 120 chars
At some point, I felt that stress was causing me measurable harm. I learned to let go and just let some things be. For a while I struggled with the idea that just not caring about certain things was making leading me to become a sociopath but the alternative is having my body regularly collapse from the stress. I won't accept religion because I can't help but find fatal flaws in the religions I've come across. I don't think I have a well thought out statement to make here. I think the old advice is "pick your battles" and "don't stress the small stuff".
Importance of religion or spirituality, but not frequency of attendance, was associated with thicker cortices in [various cerebral regions], independent of familial risk.
Link
I would say that you have very limited understanding about religions. They are many religions out there some which you are not aware of it. You assume that are religions are the similar to the ones you know or encounter. From my own experience, my religion (Shia Islam) logic is the most fundamental thing to understand religion. For example, if there is conflict between logic and religious teaching, the logic would take precedent. Another example is that each believers need to believe on the commonsense principles (e.g. unity of God). Daily prayer for example is secondary to the religion. I suggest to read this book http://www.feedbooks.com/userbook/29145/principles-of-faith-usul-al-deen. It is very logical . The book also discusses and refutes other religions' beliefs based on logic and commonsense.
A pub. Learn the python philosophers song.
You might still appear loony, but if you don't find fellow loonies, go to a different pub.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Heheheh, nice. And exactly true.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
So you're saying that people in the last 20 or so years of their lives who believe that once they die it is all over, and are coming to the realization that the minuscule amount of time they spent on this Earth means nothing, are more stressed than those who may hold the belief that maybe, just maybe there is something else? Shocking. I'll also say that you will see a trend of people who have claimed for a good part of their lives are atheist (in reality they are agnostic) actually find themselves peering over the edge of the abyss as they get older and in some form start to find God.
So it's good for the individual. I suspect that for the society as a whole, it wouldn't be good for everyone to have that marker.
So sometimes people get to be more optimistic about things.. Great.. It's nice when I meet people like that, who pull me into their happy world (and yes, I appreciate it).. My own.. Well, I see the world without the niceties. I'm prone to depression. But there again, I get to use it in work, and in life. Out of the larger group, I'm usually the one who adds in the dose of reality when people need the hard advice, or a plan that has the greatest chance of succeeding. I prep them to get through tough times without sugar coating. I pick up on loads of things that people with a brighter mindset miss.
The disadvantage is that I'm not a happy-go-lucky person most of the time.
That's where the strength of real diversity comes in. A mix of mindsets covers all angles, and has a good chance of working more comfortably in the long haul. The group can play to the strengths of the individuals. The problems start when people start decreeing that their viewpoint is the only valid one in all cases. Unfortunately, religion has a lot of that in it. Not a problem for the individual, but perhaps a huge one for those around.
Finding fellow loonies is what religion is all about.
However I do enjoy a good Bach fuge on a classic pipe organ.
I would say that you have very limited understanding about religions. They are many religions out there some which you are not aware of it. You assume that are religions are the similar to the ones you know or encounter. From my own experience, my religion (Shia Islam) logic is the most fundamental thing to understand religion. For example, if there is conflict between logic and religious teaching, the logic would take precedent. Another example is that each believers need to believe on the commonsense principles (e.g. unity of God). Daily prayer for example is secondary to the religion. I suggest to read this book http://www.feedbooks.com/userbook/29145/principles-of-faith-usul-al-deen. It is very logical . The book also discusses and refutes other religions' beliefs based on logic and commonsense. In other words, I believe that my religion makes smarter because in all religious life and living encourages me to use my commonsense and logic.
Straight through the heart of them, righteous up rights....
...is one of the main things that gets me upset. Just a possible alternative source of stress among unbelievers.
Hah, research from "Center for Spirituality, Theology, and Health at Duke University" ? I without a doubt think that this is biased.
One thing I've noticed is that smart people (the likes of /. users) give up on religion totally since they couldn't find answers in their own. Read scriptures of other religions. I'd recommend starting with the Quran to save yourself some time. It has got something for all interests: History, Philosophy, Embryology, Geology...It is shorter than the Bible so should take too long to read.
Is the social interaction enabled by religion:
So where does that leave non-believers?
“Out of luck, I guess,” Koenig joked.
“Actually, I would suspect that people doing the types of things like religious people do -- socializing, doing similarly complex cognitive tasks, would have similar benefits. But it is interesting that religion provides that whole package of things that people can adopt and pursue over time.”
It would be really interesting to make an additional study to compare that against a group of people that are not religious but that have a simmilar level of social interaction.
Mexico: 100% conservative's America now!
No, Marx was referring to the palliative effects of religion, which he described with a notable degree of sympathy, though he also drew attention to its inadequacy.
Or any other religious fanatic. More wars have been fought over religion that anything else.
So, does this study show that Americans generally have better health than Swedes?
Sweden is very non religious, and the US very religious. We're in the same socioeconomic class so we shoud be comparable.
You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. -- Harlan Ellison
People in the uS naturally are going to find and try to maintain their individual rung on an economic ladder. There are only a few places reserved at the top where you can be listed as a qualified religious practitioner and recorded by agencies exampled by the IRS that keeps a good record for your euology... That is what religion is in the united States. They worship the God of money...and are probably in the real God's comic books...recorded with no hind sight as that God's children are delighted and amazed at why a man could have ever acted like that.
I would suggest someone is digging into the brains of live humans again, and there is a greater risk of becoming a statistic of unethical practices conducted by uS scientists/psychiatrists, etc. for financial gain...while uS religions are being charmed by a snake charmer using a magical coin of old.
I write into this moshpit of hate for anyone here who might struggle with depression.
Writing from the moshpit of judgementalism, are we?
I've suffered from anxiety and depression all my life. You don't speak for me, and nothing you said makes sense to me. Believe it or not, we're not one single, like-minded, mono-cultural mass.
Your body makes you depressed to solve a stress problem.
Is that right? And what research supports this ridiculously simplistic viewpoint?
I'm not going to say it's going to work for you, because I can't know that, especially because most of you have already insisted that it can't work, and so it's sure to not work for you, because you will see to it that it won't, so that you can be right, and miserable.
Actually, you just said exactly that. You imply that the only way it's not going to work for me is if I sabotage it for myself, so I can be "right and miserable". What a holier-than-thou person you are. Oh right, you're religious. Well, I guess you have a right to think you know what's good for me. I have a right to disagree - which, from your mountain-top, you call "the right to be miserable".
You have your medicine, I have mine. Leave it at that, if you are able.
To believe no less than six impossible things before breakfast.
"HAPPY are those who are conscious of their spiritual need" so I guess there is a physical benefit from that scriptural advice after all?
religion aside...
Reading the article referenced : "Neuroanatomical Correlates of Religiosity and Spirituality A Study in Adults at High and Low Familial Risk for Depression" I am struck by this in particular :
"Results : Importance of religion or spirituality, but not frequency of attendance, was associated with thicker cortices in the left and right parietal and occipital regions, the mesial frontal lobe of the right hemisphere, and the cuneus and precuneus in the left hemisphere, independent of familial risk. In addition, the effects of importance on cortical thickness were significantly stronger in the high-risk than in the low-risk group, particularly along the mesial wall of the left hemisphere, in the same region where we previously reported a significant thinner cortex associated with a familial risk of developing depressive illness. We note that these findings are correlational and therefore do not prove a causal association between importance and cortical thickness.
Conclusions and Relevance : A thicker cortex associated with a high importance of religion or spirituality may confer resilience to the development of depressive illness in individuals at high familial risk for major depression, possibly by expanding a cortical reserve that counters to some extent the vulnerability that cortical thinning poses for developing familial depressive illness.
This is fascinating stuff ! Much more interesting than the emotive and desperate sounding attempts to proselytize for the eradication of irrational religious belief a particular character type here expresses at every opportunity.
Religious belief has arguably existed in some form or another as far back as humans have. It has a function beyond the negative things that some angry (and often unintentionally ironic) humans often attributed to it. That is an amazing fact. The why and how and interrelational aspects of it are far more logically enticing than the typically boring and nihilistic exhortations some people feel compelled to crap-up forums with.
If I wanted to hear/read THAT kind of junk I'd go to some place where fundamentalists opine, like religious extremist forum, or perhaps a church...
An excellent example of how religion has co-opted some of the most powerful benefits of gregarious behaviour. Religion does not own relaxation techniques, or socialization or community. these are things we all intrinsically own and religion has attempted to patent.
Jesus came to connect man to God. His death on the Roman cross and the raising of him from death to life by God the Father is how he did it. People are convicted of sin, because they don't believe in Jesus Christ, not because they don't follow rules and regulations. In other words, one senses their need to believe in Jesus, when the good news is proclaimed. Acting on that information and accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and saviour is how one gets eternal life. Anyone who accepts Jesus is called a Christian. The word Christian means little Christ. That's why Jesus said to pray to God the Father in his name. He said ask and you will receive. That's why prayer is effective, God answers prayers. People who pray are connected with God and experience him through Jesus. There is a reality that is present when one is connected to God.
Its a reduction in stress, not a lesson in tact.
Hitler meditated daily.
I think you proved his point.
Trouble is there is a fallacy here. If Hitler had won the war there would have been a revisionist canpaign to expunge his sins or to mitigate them somewhat, consider Stalin? And Hitler drew on the support of Christians in Germany, and being Catholic or Lutheran did not decide the issue, either of religion or of morality, and it rarely does.
So maybe the point of the OP is that believing that there is something greater than one self, in whatever form you choose, reduces stress. But prejudging the complexity of the world with proscribed answers also might reduce stress. On the other hand, there are many many paths to the same outcome than merely given by the world's organized religious organizations. There is a spiritual meaning for human beings quite apart from the traditions given in these world religions. Maybe doing some art might have the same effect, for example.
Unitarian-Universalist churches provide all of the above without requiring that members believe in any aspect of any particular service or activity that the individual church engages-in/provides.
I'd imagine that regular science fiction convention attendees also get the benefits described above, assuming it is all because of socialization.
Transcendental Meditation practitioners show all of the above merely by engaging in what is sold as a purely relaxation technique. Even people sleeping under bushes in Uganda, who were taught TM as stress management for PTSD, show remarkable (ludicrously remarkable) reductions in PTSD symptoms within 10 days of learning, despite having virtually no access to standard medical/religious/mental health care.
Perhaps "socialization" isn't the most important factor to be considered, depending on which "spiritual" practice is being used.
Our choice as human beings is a long life or a rational one? Well I choose smart. Btw, does this study include the religious morons who blow their life savings on some crackpot conspiracy nut like Jim Bakker or Oral Roberts, and die young of preventable diseases thanks to poverty? Is there an average age at death comparison? Five - 1 it will favor the rational over the religious
Fuck religion, and fuck the delusional shit stains that choose to believe it.
hey today we have the internet. forget god's eye, all your people on social media will see what you've been doing.
Conclusions These results do not support the notion that religious and spiritual life views enhance psychological well-being.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23360581
until it doesn't mean anything anymore, and you relax and get a mental reset.
I stopped all my childhood praying rituals once I arrived at this point. I realized that I had faked belief all my life to belong to the society around me and to my extended family.
I managed to control, or reduce and live with my stress related migraines and issue of rage, suicidal and homicidal thoughts by controlling my breathing and assuming a new way of seeing the world, which is non-conceptual, non-religious and "non-human", that is a view which actively tries to focus consciousness of this very moment, the next sight, the next breath. This way one can stop judging oneself and others.
Consequently, it requires certain detachment, or disinvolvement from the social achievement ladder, which is the unseen, daily war in the lives of many unfortunate people.
We're ALL deluded. There's just this choice being offered between "scientific" delusions that are only a few hundred years old at best, and ones thousands of years old.
The recent delusions have a more rational basis, to a degree. But the older ones offer thousands of years of trial-and-error experience (called scriptures/laws) that the new delusions lack. Making the newer delusions more variable and susceptible to political influences. While the old ones can't really separate their out-of-date strictures from the ones that are still useful.
Personally, I find that those who adhere mostly to the old delusions are much more friendly and trustworthy overall (with some note-able exceptions) than the ones who adhere to the new delusions. Who tend to be more dour, intolerant, and fragmented in their beliefs. They all know they hate the old ways, but they can't yet offer an alternative that brings good people together in constructive ways. All they do is tear down, not build.
Having been depressed, I'm not nearly so sure.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
Alexis de Tocqueville — 'America is great because she is good. If America ceases to be good, America will cease to be great.'
It's ethics people. Religion offers something that meditation can't - the foundation for meditation itself, a clear conscience. Don't know about you but I meditate better when I'm ok with myself. When I've repented (repentance is ultimately just manning up, owning up and admitting you were a douce - kind of important) I feel more learned in that I probably won't make that mistake again and thus more centred for meditation. They are interconnected.
The great comedian, George Carlin is a person noted for lamenting Religion not for religion itself but rather peoples' paradoxical view that all their problems can be dissolved through religion and a lazy expectation that belief will save them - i.e. people with shaky faith ultimately.
He also lamented that religion is abused by churches who collect million in donations and pay no taxes, seeing at as a form of ponzi scheme. He just had an awkward and graphic way of making that point - as comedians do - and for the simplicity of comedic delivery, kept it simple and kind of through the baby out with the bath water.
I digress. I believe Religion is helpful to humans because ultimately we're constructive beings with fingers (ultimately evolved to make rather than break) and because we have a conscience. We're capable of remorse. Ethical systems help us to water the roots as it were - the essence of our being.