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Navy Debuts New Railgun That Launches Shells at Mach 7

Jeremiah Cornelius writes: "The U.S. Navy's new railgun technology, developed by General Atomics, uses the Lorentz force in a type of linear, electric motor to hurl a 23-pound projectile at speeds exceeding Mach 7 — in excess of 5,000 mph. The weapon has a range of 100 miles and doesn't require explosive warheads. 'The electromagnetic railgun represents an incredible new offensive capability for the U.S. Navy,' says Rear Adm. Bryant Fuller, the Navy's chief engineer. 'This capability will allow us to effectively counter a wide range of threats at a relatively low cost, while keeping our ships and sailors safer by removing the need to carry as many high-explosive weapons.' Sea trials begin aboard an experimental Navy catamaran, the USNS Millinocket, in 2016."

630 comments

  1. Glitterboyz on the way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Oh yeah. Time to take down some dragons and some skullheads.

    1. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Z00L00K · · Score: 2

      Mount a downsized version on the A10.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    2. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Immerman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The railgun might fit, but where are you going to put the nuclear reactor to power it?

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    3. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by alexborges · · Score: 1

      Whats the recoil on this thing?

      --
      NO SIG
    4. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by the.o.ster.66 · · Score: 1

      is there a recoil on rail guns? or is this a joke?

    5. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      F=MA. M = big, A = very fast, therefore F = big very fast!

    6. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by the.o.ster.66 · · Score: 5, Funny

      according to the experts at yahoo answers, there isn't recoil in the traditional sense, but there is recoil because physics and also it somehow forms babby.

    7. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by ColdWetDog · · Score: 3, Funny

      F=MA. M = big, A = very fast, therefore F = big very fast!

      So, teaching in current mathematics has come to this?

      We're doomed.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    8. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

      How would that be a joke. It's basic physics. Of course there's recoil.

    9. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Palladium, the system of choice for 2 digit IQ gamers.

    10. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by rickett81 · · Score: 1
      IANAPhysicist,

      I believe the 'recoil' here would be experienced by the gun itself. The Lorentz force causes the opposite force to be directed at a right angle to the projectile. So there would be very little recoil in the traditional sense but the forces acting on the barrel would be much greater than in a traditional gun.

    11. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by gnick · · Score: 2

      F=MA. M = big, A = very fast, therefore F = big very fast!

      So, teaching in current mathematics has come to this?

      We're doomed.

      If somebody asks whether accelerating a 23-lb mass to Mach 7 would push the thing accelerating it backward, we may have to go back to F=ma. And defining m=big and a=very fast seems appropriate. So, yeah, F=big very fast. Not perfect grammar, but at least it paints a picture for our friend who has yet to hear of Newton.

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    12. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course there is recoil. Is *that* a joke?

    13. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Orcs then? Or Vampires? Or Vampire Orcs?

    14. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by TuringCheck · · Score: 1

      is there a recoil on rail guns? or is this a joke?

      The recoil is lower than a conventiomal chemical gun for the same projectile and speed because no gas is accelerated with the projectile.

      However, rail guns tend to be immensely heavy beasts to withstand recoil and transversal electromagnetic forces.

    15. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's that one law from that Newton guy.

    16. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No. There is always an opposing force. The 90 degree bit you are thinking of with the Lorentz force is the angle between the force generated and the magnetic field used to generate it. If the gun is applying a force on the projectile to launch it out, there is a force being applied backward on the gun.

    17. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by NatasRevol · · Score: 0

      And us non-syrians are just the people for it!
      /bigfuckingsarcasm

      How about we stop being the world's police.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    18. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Arabs.

    19. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 1

      The real purpose of these guns, is to entertain Slashdot, while siphoning Federal monies into private pockets for exciting boondoggles.

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    20. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Sable+Drakon · · Score: 1

      Newtonian Physics 101: For every action, there's an equal and opposite reaction. So you want to launch a slug of metal at Mach 7, there's going to be an equivelant force pushing back on the gun and whatever it's mounted on. A plane just isn't going to survive those forces yet.

      --
      The Amarri pray for god, the Caldari pray for profit. the Gallente pray for peace, but the Minmatar pray their ships hol
    21. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It *is* basic physics. Didn't take that second class with E & M in it did we?

    22. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Um, yes? Are you stupid?

    23. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      You mean the A-10 that's going away?

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    24. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Well they better get the 'babby on board' signs up pronto! Who know what could happen if one of these ships gets rear ended.

    25. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by lgw · · Score: 1

      After all, isolationism worked so well in WWII ...

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    26. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Rear ending babby? Are you a Catholic priest?

    27. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's a big difference between being the world police and isolationism.

    28. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Lotana · · Score: 1

      Amazing how long WWII is being milked to keep patriotism and massive military complex alive. Hell, it was before I was born! I wonder how may decades 9/11 will be used as a propaganda cry.

      <Sarcasm>
      Why are you all friendly towards Canada? They burnt down the White House!!!

      Where is your hatred for Mexico? Don't you remember Alamo?!

      Traitor!
      </Sarcasm>

    29. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh trust me, there is pleanty of hate for Mexico and Canada.

      The whole "illegal mexicans took our jobs" and " canadian socialists" memes.

    30. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about you stop averting your eyes from something that is obviously evil.

    31. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by lgw · · Score: 1

      When I was young, we had a pre-printed pad on the fridge for keeping track of chores and errand and whatnot. It was pre-printed:
      Things to remember:
      1. The Alamo
      2. _________________
      3. _________________
      4. _________________
      (etc).

      But seriously, we really didn't want to get involved in WWII until it was far too late. Prevention is simply cheaper than emergency care, even in world politics. But it's been long enough that we've forgotten now, and while we'll save a few bucks gutting our military, it will cost us more if there's a major war in Asia, even if we don't get involved directly, when the global economy craters for a decade.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    32. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Guy+From+V · · Score: 1

      The A-10 Thunderbolt II is being retired very soon I believe.

    33. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by budgenator · · Score: 2

      There is a youtube video where the weapon is initiated (fired isn't quite appropriate as there is no fire involved) and you can definitely see the barrel recoil within the gun base. The M114, 155mm howitzer firing the M107 he projectile masses at 43Kg and has a muzzle velocity of 564 m/s resulting in at least 24252 Kg*m/s of recoil; the railgun fires a 10 Kg projectile with a muzzle velocity of 2235 m/s resulting in 22350 Kg*m/s or 8% less recoil (power) than a howitzer; 1.3678128e7 J vs. 4.995225e9, but 365 times more energy.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    34. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 2

      30MJ is about 2,000kW electrical for one round per second. Not that much power at these energy levels.

    35. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      ...A plane just isn't going to survive those forces yet.

      William Gibson suggested mounting it in a blimp. Who cares about the blimp?

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    36. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More likely a public school teacher, actually.

    37. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Bartles · · Score: 1

      That's a stupid way of phrasing it. The recoil is identical to a chemically propelled projectile. In other words the recoil is proportional to the mass and acceleration of the projectile and associated matter. The gun pushes on the projectile, the projectile pushes on the gun.

    38. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Bartles · · Score: 1

      If the projectile goes one way, the gun goes the other. Lorentz forces happen in addition.

    39. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Bartles · · Score: 1

      It's not about being the world's police. It's about stopping something that is clearly evil. Looking the other way is just as evil as cutting off someone's hand.

    40. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      Actually, they only need to do about 8MJ for the A10. Ideally, make a gattling gun type approach to it.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    41. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The recoil is identical to a chemically propelled projectile. In other words the recoil is proportional to the mass and acceleration of the projectile and associated matter.

      That seems to be what the GP was saying, except explicitly pointing out the "associated matter" will be different between the two cases.

    42. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Bartles · · Score: 1

      And like I said, it's a stupid way of phrasing it. The physics are exactly the same.

    43. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The F-35B has a 35,000hp PTO available when the lift fan is removed.

    44. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by dryeo · · Score: 1

      You mean the consequences of theft?

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    45. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by dryeo · · Score: 0

      That's right, the good guys would lock the thief up with a bunch of homo sexual rapists so the thief could practice the freedom of being the raped or raper. Or perhaps lock him in a cell with no human contact, nothing to do, no exercise for a good chunk of his life, then release him while denying him rights like being able to support himself then complain that he's still a thief and repeat the locking up stuff.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    46. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Bartles · · Score: 1

      WTF are you talking about. Seriously. Lay off the weed.

    47. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by dryeo · · Score: 1

      The State of the American prison system where rape seems to be common and glorified as just punishment, torture in the form of solitary confinement is also common, 1 in a 100 American adults are there and you still have the medieval concept of felon where civil rights are removed permanently forming a segregated society.
      Barbarianism comes in many forms though often with self righteousness.
      (apologies if you're not American)

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    48. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh where to start? ;^)

      Big is size not mass...
      Fast is speed not acceleration...

      Why not just say force is something that gets heavy things to move very quickly (rather than just making up shit?)

    49. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Johann+Lau · · Score: 1

      Between the dictators the US props up and the civilians it kills, and way the military industrial complex robs you blind, how about you OPEN your eyes?

      "But I don't need to, it's already obvious!" -- every moron, ever

    50. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you should watch few HBO TV shows. Oz wasn't real, only in your homoerotic fantasies.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    51. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      True, but in the general sense, "recoil" is usually the label given to the force applied to the gun moving in the opposed direction of the projectile, caused by an extremely rapid burn of propellant.

      With this, there is no propellant - only magnetic force, applied in increasing amounts rather than all at once. And, you have an apparatus that weighs several tons to exert that magnetic force on something that weighs 23 pounds. Any opposed force (which exists) is completely mitigated by the construction of the thing, and how it's bolted / welded to the ship.

      It's the same idea as using a spring in a ball point pen to launch the ink barrel a few feet - there is an opposed force from the spring trying to expand in both directions, but it's so minute compared to what it's pushing against, that it might as well not exist.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    52. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sez you, Father.

    53. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then why not just leave it at 'syria' memes, then?

    54. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      All I'm saying is if we're going to be 'stopping evil', how about we finish up in our own country first before we force our military, and the taxes that pay for it, into someone else's business.

      And we've got a long fucking way to go.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    55. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by gnick · · Score: 2

      Yeah - Go pedantics! Big can be size, weight, importance, etc... Knee-jerking "big"=="size" is like saying that the "shortest" route home means plowing through walls, cars, etc, rather than going to my car and taking the "quickest" route home. Yes, "fast" is "speed", but when you're referencing F=ma, I think that "getting something big to move fast" implies changing the velocity of a given mass. How close to Kindergarten do we need to get?

      Well, I'm arguing with an AC on an article a day old that will probably never be read. Maybe a day of Kindergarten is what we all need.

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    56. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by lgw · · Score: 1

      Did you reply to the right post?

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    57. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by drainbramage · · Score: 1

      Wrestling holds to avoid:
      1> Half Nelson
      2> Full Nelson
      3> Father Nelson

      --
      No brain, no pain.
    58. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by drainbramage · · Score: 1

      Sure is.
      Also a big difference between watching a beating and acting to stop it.

      --
      No brain, no pain.
    59. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      To entertain Slashdot, wouldn't it be more economical to skip the railgun and go straight to the pr0n?

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  2. No jetpacks yet... by occasional_dabbler · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...but at least part of the future is here already.

    --
    "Our opponent is an alien starship packed with atomic bombs," I said. "we have a protractor"
    1. Re:No jetpacks yet... by aliquis · · Score: 2

      Rocketpacks have been around for long, they run out quickly though.

      Jetpacks I think they also used later. (One of the guys really into it died (I don't think it was from the pack.))

    2. Re:No jetpacks yet... by occasional_dabbler · · Score: 2

      I know there are examples flying, albeit briefly, but not one I can get from Target that flies me to work and back all week before refuelling with a nuclear pill...

      --
      "Our opponent is an alien starship packed with atomic bombs," I said. "we have a protractor"
    3. Re:No jetpacks yet... by ColdWetDog · · Score: 3, Funny

      Fool! You have to go to the Sharper Image catalog for that sort of thing.

      Hell, Target doesn't even sell Mr. Fusions yet.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    4. Re:No jetpacks yet... by JoeMerchant · · Score: 2

      This is one of the things that Regan's "Star Wars" projects started working on in the late 1980s... about damn time for the first prototypes to be shown.

    5. Re:No jetpacks yet... by sconeu · · Score: 3, Funny

      Mr. Fusion comes out next year (2015).

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    6. Re:No jetpacks yet... by viperidaenz · · Score: 2

      Along with flying cars and hoverboards too, right?

    7. Re:No jetpacks yet... by davester666 · · Score: 2

      Introducing the RailPack. The new way of speedy point-to-point travel.

      (you may experience some windburn) (and some stress from accelerating at a very high rate)

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    8. Re:No jetpacks yet... by geekoid · · Score: 2

      Jokes on you, I was in the kickstarter and get mine first!

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    9. Re:No jetpacks yet... by boristdog · · Score: 2

      Jeez, I remember touring the UT high-energy physics lab in Austin back in 1995 where they were working on these. Back then I thought for sure they would be out before 2014.

      We got to see it shoot through about 20 feet of wood, which was cool, but only about 1/3 the speed of this one.

    10. Re:No jetpacks yet... by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1

      Okay, while not a jetpack, this thing could send you 100 miles at Mach 7. Obviously, sticking the landing might be rough.

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    11. Re:No jetpacks yet... by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 1

      Okay, while not a jetpack, this thing could send you 100 miles at Mach 7. Obviously, sticking the landing might be rough.

      That's ok. No one at the landing site will be alive to judge you.

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    12. Re:No jetpacks yet... by oursland · · Score: 1

      Jetpacks have been around since the 1960s. The most successful models involve carrying large quantities of H2O2 on your back, pushing it through a catalyst, and having the exhaust come out at destructively hot temperatures. They're heavy, hard to control, and only provide a few seconds of controlled flight. In other words, they're a huge liability for limited utility.

      Much like other forms of transport, flight is most effective when it is scaled up to many persons per trip.

    13. Re:No jetpacks yet... by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      You will definitely stick on the landing ... smear might be more appropriate, but you'll stick to whatever you land on as the mist of what you once where settles back down.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    14. Re:No jetpacks yet... by JoeMerchant · · Score: 2

      I was at U of Miami in 1990, they were just finishing up fancy new Physics and Engineering buildings, funded in large part by the Regan programs...

    15. Re:No jetpacks yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who gives a fuck about those? I want my 5 second pizzas!

    16. Re:No jetpacks yet... by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      Damn, I thought Skymall would definitely have it.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    17. Re:No jetpacks yet... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      FFS noob, go & learn to rocket jump already!

  3. IANA Physicist, So... by errxn · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ...Can someone who is explain where the big fiery explosion out of the railgun is coming from, if this thing is electromagnetically driven?

    --
    In Soviet Russia, Chuck Norris will still kick your ass.
    1. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Hot expanding gases, you're pushing a projectile at Mach 7 through air that doesn't really have anywhere to go.

    2. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Atomizing particles.

    3. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by peragrin · · Score: 5, Informative

      It is called plasma. It happens when you heat gases beyond a particular limit.

      A 23 pound slug traveling at Mach 7 is displacing a lot of air very quickly.

      Do you think that air will get colder?

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    4. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Superheated air. You don't go from standing to 5,000mph without a little friction. Its essentially plasma.

    5. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm assuming it is the result of atmospheric cavitation, no? Much in the same way these creatures do it? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpheidae#Snapping_effect

    6. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by errxn · · Score: 2

      OK, hot, yes, but wouldn't they need something combustible to actually erupt into flame? Or what am I missing?

      --
      In Soviet Russia, Chuck Norris will still kick your ass.
    7. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Probably some special effects added for coolness factor.

    8. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by PortHaven · · Score: 5, Informative

      Oxygen, it's in the air...

      fine vaporized particles of metal...

      *poof*

    9. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Moheeheeko · · Score: 5, Funny

      Oxygen is pretty combustable if you get it hot enough. Friction is a bitch yo.

    10. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cavitation is from the liquid turning into a gas when the pressure gets low enough, and then getting compressed back together when the liquid caves in. You don't get that effect in a gas, just more typical slight heating from sound and shocks.

    11. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      you need 3 things for fire:

      fuel
      air
      heat

      Oxygen is flammable all on its own, it is essentially both fuel and air. Friction gives you the heat. What you see is the air itself burning. The good news is air density is low, so it can't run out of control and ignite the entire atmosphere. The bad news is, this is actually slowing down the potential top end speed of the projectile, you are getting resistance immediately.

    12. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ^ This, it's cavitation, alright. The atmosphere is a liquid...

    13. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting
      The currents involved here vaporize part of the structure and the shell. It's a very destructive process. They use something called a "sabot", the actual projectile is inside the sabot. The sabot is what is being driven/destroyed in the process. The problem with railguns is that they are linear scaling. The relationship between the force supplied to the sabot and the current is strictly linear as F=BLI.

      So you need an incredible amount of current in a very short time to get an effect like this.

      It's not entirely clear what the advantage of a railgun would be, it's very hard on the cannon. Psychology, I guess. It's an inert piece of metal that can't be jammed and is probably hard to spot on radar too.

    14. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Assmasher · · Score: 2

      The nitrogen under pressure remains inert, but the oxygen will combust at those levels. There's a great video of the plastic block they were testing with years ago with a huge wall of flame behind it as it traveled at mach 5 iirc...

      --
      Loading...
    15. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oxygen is flammable all on its own, it is essentially both fuel and air. Friction gives you the heat. What you see is the air itself burning.

      Care to give the actual chemical reaction for that?

      Oxygen+Heat-> ???

      Ozone doesn't work because that would be endothermic, not anything like combustion releasing energy.

    16. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Ryyuajnin · · Score: 2

      "When air is compressed very quickly, it can reach high temperatures. In this demonstration we show how cotton wool can reach the point of auto-ignition by quick compression of air in the fire syringe." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

    17. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Liquid? It's fluid, but not liquid, now is it?

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    18. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Depending on what they are using for an armature, the fire is plasma created from the super-heating and vaporization of the armature (a conductive media, metal or sometime a gas). As others have mentioned part may be plasma from atmosphere effects.

    19. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless something has changed in the last couple years since I worked in a field closer to that work, the fireball is mostly from arcing, friction issues with the rails, and/or vaporizing conducting elements associated with the projectile. Especially when the projectile leaves the rail, a large arc is created, and there are all sorts of issues of small amounts of metal from the rails and the connection across the projectile vaporizing and making a mess. Last I had kept up on the details, the spray of vaporized metal was a serious maintenance issue, but it was just assumed to be an engineering issue that would be improved upon and practically solved.

      All the people saying stuff about heating of the air doesn't make sense, because if that speed caused that much heating, the fireball would be following the projectile. The barrel of the rail gun is not anywhere close to air tight like a normal gun, so it is not that the air would pile up in front of the projectile any more in the barrel than it would on the way out.

    20. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Ferrofluid · · Score: 2

      Oxygen is most definitely not flammable. Please take a grade-six science class.

    21. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by alexborges · · Score: 0, Troll

      Why you trollin? Everything is flammable.

      --
      NO SIG
    22. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      then explain it better dipshit. The guy is trying to help and all you wanna do is tear him down without contributing. Way to be a loser. How about you try again.

    23. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      If oxygen was both fuel and air, why the hell would we have two separate categories then?

      --
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    24. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by MozeeToby · · Score: 5, Informative

      "Flame" is nothing but superheated gases. You can have a flame without combustion if you raise the temperature some other way. In this case it's electrical heating, ram air pressure, and simple air friction.

    25. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When you compress it enough it is.

    26. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Redmancometh · · Score: 1

      Just think of a giant fire cylinder, but in reverse, and much larger.

    27. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Redmancometh · · Score: 2

      Ah..redundancy and no edit button.

    28. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Now we just need someone to say: "Yeah, bitch! Magnets!" and our Breaking Bad reference is done.

    29. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by occasional_dabbler · · Score: 3, Informative
      This is simple. You are making the air near the missile move at Mach 7.

      The temperature of the air will be around ten times ambient, so 3000K, which is more or less the stochiometric temperature for hydrocarbon fuels.

      Read this for details of the isentropic flow relationships.

      --
      "Our opponent is an alien starship packed with atomic bombs," I said. "we have a protractor"
    30. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you think that air will get colder?

      Continue this line of reasoning, if just the displaced air was enough to make the fireball, than the fire should follow the projectile. Yet it doesn't (and doesn't for even some higher velocity ones, although quite a bit of heating is involved). Instead it is from a portion of the conducting part of the sabot being vaporized and heated from the electrical current that has to pass through it, which is why it follows parts of the sabot.

    31. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by psycho12345 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The range means you can fire it from beyond the horizon, so radar can never spot the firing. The speed means you have no way in hell of dodging it or shooting it down. And the kinetic energy of it means no armor will block it, short of armoring the ship to the point it can't move. Just take aim at the power plant or armory of the other ship and you get a guaranteed kill. I think the key advantage is the inability to be dodged or shot down like a shell, but the range of a missile. Also, I imagine detecting a missile launch is easier then detecting a railgun firing.

    32. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      most high power rail guns operate with what is called a plasma armature, meaning that the projectile or sabot is probably designed with ablation in mind and that the current heats the metal body of the sabot or projectile to the point of ionization so that additional accelerating current is able to flow through the plasma

      the 'plasma cloud' behind the projectile is at a temperature of thousands of degrees -- it will appear 'hot' from blackbody radiation and emission spectra of anything moving in the cloud, and the fact that it's both enormously hot and ionized and has things with colorful emission spectra floating in it is for the most part enough for it to behave like a fireball when leaving the confinement of the barrel, but probably there are combustion and electrochemical reactions occuring as well

    33. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Bacon+Bits · · Score: 5, Informative

      Not exactly. Oxygen is a prerequisite for the process known as combustion, since combustion is an oxidization reaction. "A rapid, exothermic oxidation of a substance, called the fuel," is a reasonable definition of combustion. Usually we say the fuel is combustible.

      --
      The road to tyranny has always been paved with claims of necessity.
    34. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Room temperature is over 100 K above the critical point temperatures for oxygen and nitrogen. No amount of compression will yield a liquid-gas phase change at room temperatures or higher.

    35. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by JeffAtl · · Score: 1

      This is simple.

      You're over complicating it. It's not the air but the sabot that is used to encase the projectile.

    36. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by ClickOnThis · · Score: 1, Redundant

      Not exactly. Oxygen is a prerequisite for the process known as combustion, since combustion is an oxidization reaction. "A rapid, exothermic oxidation of a substance, called the fuel," is a reasonable definition of combustion. Usually we say the fuel is combustible.

      Mod parent informative. Oxygen doesn't burn. Rather, other stuff burns by combining rapidly with oxygen.

      --
      If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
    37. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by ClickOnThis · · Score: 2

      Oxygen+Heat-> ??? -> Profit!

      FTFY.

      [And yes, you're right. Oxygen doesn't burn; other stuff burns by combining with it.]

      --
      If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
    38. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by DerekLyons · · Score: 2

      It's not entirely clear what the advantage of a railgun would be

      It means you don't have carry propellant for the shells - propellant that's volatile and dangerous to handle and store. (Historically, the vast majority of Naval ordinance casualties are related to the propellant, not the payload.) You reduce the size, weight, and complexity of the handling path as the size and weight of the round decreases. You also reduce the size of the magazines. (Yes, some of the saved space and weight will be spent on whatever provides the energy for the gun.)

    39. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In principle, you can still shoot down such projectiles and armor against them, but it won't be easy either way. If you can manage the fast response time (which is not too large coming over the horizon compared to some systems now that target near by artillery), and can destabilize its flight a little, it will very quickly lose its kinetic energy to air resistance. Some gain can be made in armoring by having two layers with a gap between, the first layer causing the kinetic projectile to turning into a mess of molten and vaporized material that hits the second lay over a wider area. Research is being done into such armor that can stop or mitigate faster but smaller orbital bits from damaging spacecraft in orbit.

    40. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by garyebickford · · Score: 4, Informative

      There are several advantages to railguns for the Navy, in lethality, cost-per-round, how much ammo you can carry, and overall safety.

      Lethality - the kinetic energy of a 'passive' round at these velocities is equivalent to or greater than an explosive round (though I would think it might not be all that useful in all circumstances - just flying through some softer materials instead of blowing them up). As the videos show, the 'kill' factor is substantial. The projectiles are also much less affected by gravitational drop and windage - I would think proportional to the velocity - so accuracy will be better. The higher velocity also allows for firing at much longer range - up to 200 miles vs. 30 for the latest 155mm round.

      Cost-per-round - while not as cheap as lasers (the laser about to go through sea trials has a cost of about $1 per shot), these systems should have a cost-per-round an order of magnitude cheaper than the big artillery presently in use. (I just read that 155mm shells cost $50,000 each.) It's much easier, cheaper, and safer to build a solid chunk of tungsten or whatever than a huge shell, especially when the savings in transport and necessary safety systems and procedures is taken into account.

      How much - the propellant takes up a lot of space, must be stored in special containment that takes up more space. All of that space can be used to store actual projectiles instead, possibly multiplying the number of rounds available by a factor of 5 to 10. Add to that the the higher kinetic energy allows a smaller projectile to be equally effective, which means you can increase the number even more.

      Safety - this eliminates the problem of ammunition exploding either in the ship that will use it, or the supply ship. There are many instances of a single 'lucky' hit on a ship that happens to penetrate the ammunition magazines, whereupon that explosion rips the ship in half. The explosives used in ammunition are also toxic. Removing the propellant greatly increases the survival probability in the event of a hit, and eliminates the probability of an unfortunate accident sinking the ship. This also means the supply ships are safer and can deliver much more ammunition in one trip.

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    41. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OK, hot, yes, but wouldn't they need something combustible to actually erupt into flame? Or what am I missing?

      Ever seen a shooting star?

    42. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by occasional_dabbler · · Score: 1
      Possibly. What is it made of? Without the full drawings and a week to think about it it's hard to say exactly what causes the effect.

      Funny how that reminds me of the day job...

      --
      "Our opponent is an alien starship packed with atomic bombs," I said. "we have a protractor"
    43. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by ClickOnThis · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's an inert piece of metal that can't be jammed and is probably hard to spot on radar too.

      IAAP, although not an expert in rail guns or radar.

      I would guess that the projectiles would be hard to detect on radar because they're small. However, it would seem to me that the rail gun itself would send out one hell of a large EMP that would reveal the location of the gun and the time of firing.

      --
      If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
    44. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      It's like a meteorite... only in thicker air.

    45. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      It will get colder, in the low pressure wake. PV=nRT

    46. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't think you even really need a combustion. Combustion is just an easy way to heat gases up to very hot. This does it the hard way.

    47. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by JoeMerchant · · Score: 2

      Radar can spot the incoming shell.

      You can defend against it with a similar projectile fired to intercept (not easy, but would work if you got it right)

      It won't be doing Mach 7 for long... friction and all...

    48. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by wjcofkc · · Score: 1

      It's all in the transfer of kinetic energy from the projectile into the target. It's like being in a car accident at 5,000 MPH.

      --
      Brought to you by Carl's Junior.
    49. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by TuringCheck · · Score: 1

      OK, hot, yes, but wouldn't they need something combustible to actually erupt into flame? Or what am I missing?

      Heating caused by compression or by burning results in plasma - ionized gas - which you see.

    50. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by njnnja · · Score: 2, Funny

      Oxygen is most definitely not flammable

      So then it is inflammable?

      Worst apparent negative prefix ever.

    51. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Do you think that air will get colder?
      Eventually, yes.

    52. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Will.Woodhull · · Score: 1

      I'm guessing the muzzle flash is from part of the sabot. Maybe styrofoam peanuts, maybe a big coil of copper wire.

      I'm not sure how much of this presentation has been photoshopped. The flight sequence doesn't look right-- if this was going at Mach 7, how come the background looks like something from an airplane at 100 mph?

      I'm guessing the projectile is depleted uranium, judging by its behavior on impact. Is there anything new in the unclassified pages about the depleted uranium dust we deployed in Iraq during the Gulf War? Last I heard, the stuff was probably nasty, with effects lasting a decade or more.

      --
      Will
    53. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not only are you not a physicist, you are not a chemist either. It is doubtful that you are a high school graduate. Now shut up until you learn how to troll properly. And get off my lawn.

    54. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      (I just read that 155mm shells cost $50,000 each.)

      An unguided artillery shell + fuse is about $1,000 ea.

      http://azstarnet.com/business/local/raytheon-counts-on-artillery/article_d4551a54-8d7b-56d3-8ae0-d978dfbf7757.html

    55. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Man+Eating+Duck · · Score: 4, Interesting

      OK, hot, yes, but wouldn't they need something combustible to actually erupt into flame? Or what am I missing?

      I think this is what's going on: when something is burning, the flame you see is just glowing hot air, heated by the energy from the combustion. The flame is not part of the combustion, just the side effect. In this video you see glowing hot air heated by compression and possibly the shock wave from the projectile. Same result, but the energy source is different.

      If you've seen a meteor (streak of light in the sky at night, or a visible fireball with a trail if you're really, really lucky), the principle is the same, nothing is burning. The heat come from compression of the air in front of it, and the light you see is from the superheated air in its wake (and a little from the glowing meteorite).

      --
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    56. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by jeffmeden · · Score: 1

      It's not entirely clear what the advantage of a railgun would be, it's very hard on the cannon.

      Its in TFS FFS. The main advantage (aside from being a super fucking cool way to shoot/destroy something and being cheaper to procure per round) is that it requires no explosives to be stored on board the ship. Explosives are a huge risk, especially during combat, since your enemy can sink you with one very lucky hit if things get out of hand below deck.

    57. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Generally speaking "burning" refers to chemical reactions of the form "X + oxygen -> Heat + Y". but X can't be more oxygen - there's no reaction possible, it's already in it's lowest-energy state. You can make ozone under the right circumstances, but that consumes heat rather than creating it.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    58. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Will.Woodhull · · Score: 1

      I also think the muzzle flash is from the sabot.

      One advantage mentioned in TFA is that there are no combustibles in the ship's magazine. When you can treat your ammo the same way you treat the canned peaches, your ship has an incredible advantage over traditional warships.

      Other advantages are longer range, simplified sight picture of a moving target (at 5,000 mph a truck 100 miles away is not going to move very far down the road), and pyrophoric behavior when depleted uranium is used in the projectile (in addition to the kinetic energy, you have the explosive behavior of releasing a burning hot cloud of uranium dust at the point of impact).

      This is a truly nasty weapon.

      --
      Will
    59. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by X0563511 · · Score: 2

      Regarding the background: that is an incredibly high-speed camera, being rotated at a very high speed (think "on a spring"). AFAIK the slug needs to be ferromagnetic. Is uranium? I don't actually know. The sabot is just there to help not destroy the rails and make sure the projectile stays on them (eg doesn't flop out) - it's not meant to help carry the projectile.

      The affects on the target when you have something moving that fast are rather dramatic - even plain old steel.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    60. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      Instead, you have to store enough energy to fire the thing. I assure you - punching a hole in a capacitor bank charged up to fire one of these will not merely result in an 'arc flash' hazard...

      But, at least you can discharge these and then later charge them. It's kind of hard to not have propellant and then suddenly have some when you want it - it's there all the time.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    61. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually I think the defensive weapon would be something like Vulcan Gatling Gun which fires either armor-piercing rounds or depleted uranium rounds in vast quantities. It basically rips the incoming projectile to shreds. It is used in things such as the Phalanx system on navy ships.

    62. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by noh8rz10 · · Score: 3

      "he's not famous, he's in famous."

    63. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Sure it is, you just need a stronger oxidizer...

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C...

    64. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by InvalidError · · Score: 1

      You also have the extremely high current arcs between the rails and the projectile super-heating air around it, sputtering material from both the rails and slug, oxidizing in air when it exits the plasma cloud.

    65. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      The slug needs to be electrically conductive, not ferromagnetic.

      uses the Lorentz force

      They induce a magnetic field in the projectile to push it out the gun. They don't use big magnets to pull it out the gun.

    66. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 0

      The projectiles are also much less affected by gravitational drop
      Gravity is a force of nature, not some magical entity.
      It behaves for every shells the same..

      --
      Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
    67. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      If their radar can't see you then your radar can't see them, so you have no way to aim. Well, you could use satellites, but so could they. Ditto aircraft. Also, over-the-horizon radar. Thing is getting the accuracy to hit something as relatively small as the power plant or armoury is going to be hard at that range, especially as you still have to account for wind and atmospheric conditions, and movement of the target.

      Don't get me wrong, it's a nice weapon, but not quite as useful or deadly as the hypersonic missiles that might be coming back at these ships. They are fully guided and pretty much impossible to shoot down, with high power warheads on them too that can aim below the water line. The US doesn't have any effective defence against supercavitating torpedoes either.

      --
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      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    68. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      How about at a guess, the huge amounts of current passing through it, heating it up and vaporising parts of it? The gun isn't going to be sealed at one end like a regular one, otherwise the vacuum produced would cause fresh air to be sucked back in when the projectile exits, keeping the vaporised metal inside and damaging it. If you allow air to be pulled through the barrel the vacuum behind the projectile can pull it out and the inertia of the air can finish the job.

    69. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I assure you - punching a hole in a capacitor bank charged up to fire one of these will not merely result in an 'arc flash' hazard...

      Speaking from experience, messing up one or some of the caps in a bank like that does amount to something in addition arc flash: a mess of oil and smoke that takes a while to clean up with sponges and mops. With a bit of forethought in design and not having someone stand next to them while charged, problems are pretty well confined and amount to a lot of wiping things down and replacing the particular caps and connections that failed.

    70. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

      Or a laser version of same, which IIRC they are also working on.

    71. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So... Two ships equipped with such a weapon just turn each other into Swiss cheese?

    72. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by mr_mischief · · Score: 1

      Hydrogen _is_ both fuel and air. So is methane (sort of). Oxygen is not fuel. Oxygen is oxidizer. Hence the "oxi" in "oxidizer".

    73. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by oobayly · · Score: 2

      Malory Archer: Because you learned nothing from it.
      Sterling Archer: I learned that "flammable" and "inflammable" mean the same thing.
      Lana Kane: Wait, what?

      I wish I could find a link to the video - I love that series.

    74. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by garyebickford · · Score: 2

      But it's a function of time. Since the projectile traverses the distance in, e.g., 1/5 the time, the gravitational drop (I forget the real term) will only be 1/5 as much.

      --
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    75. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Jarik+C-Bol · · Score: 1

      You get enough oxygen and heat into a situation, and damn near anything will burn. (yay, the fire triangle!)

      --
      I've decided to Diversify my Holdings. I've divided my cash between my left and right pockets, instead of all in one.
    76. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Jarik+C-Bol · · Score: 1

      also known as a fire piston. There is a cool video on youtube of a guy building one entirely out of acrylic, so you can see the ignition inside.

      --
      I've decided to Diversify my Holdings. I've divided my cash between my left and right pockets, instead of all in one.
    77. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, you must be a blast at parties.

    78. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Jarik+C-Bol · · Score: 1

      No, its more like a fire piston. https://www.youtube.com/watch?.... Of course, because its so small and moving so slow, the piston has a closed end, but with the railgun, the projectile is moving so quickly that it can simply compress the air ahead of it in the barrel against the other air in the barrel fast enough to cause it to ignite.

      --
      I've decided to Diversify my Holdings. I've divided my cash between my left and right pockets, instead of all in one.
    79. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Savage-Rabbit · · Score: 5, Funny

      Oxygen, it's in the air...

      fine vaporized particles of metal...

      *poof*

      And that, ladies and gentlemen, is a demonstration of what we science nerds like to call 'simple science for senators". The amazing thing about it is that you can actually get billions of dollars in funding using this simplified approach when brilliantly researched and written scientific papers fail miserably. Go figure!?!?

      --
      Only to idiots, are orders laws.
      -- Henning von Tresckow
    80. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by holmstar · · Score: 1

      You need a fuel + oxygen for something to burn. Oxygen doesn't burn by itself. In this case, it's likely that tiny fragments of metal being scraped off of the projectile are the fuel.

    81. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by holmstar · · Score: 1

      The projectile only needs to be conductive (electromagnetic), not ferromagnetic.

    82. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All Russian SU planes have IR detectors on their nose. This huge plasma ploom will show up won't it?

    83. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The disadvantage is the projectile is the inability to dodge also, or change tradjectory if the target moves no?

    84. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      Instead, you have to store enough energy to fire the thing. I assure you - punching a hole in a capacitor bank charged up to fire one of these will not merely result in an 'arc flash' hazard...

      A capacitor bank can be placed inside armor, or at least inside an enclosed volume, with minimal interfaces - historically, the access needed to transfer ammunition into or out of a magazine has been it's Achilles heel.

    85. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Jarik+C-Bol · · Score: 4, Informative

      The article explains what the major advantages are. Short version, is:

      1. The projectiles are inert blocks of metal by necessity of their design, and yet they strike with enough force to cause incredible destruction on impact. (kinetic energy released as mechanical failure of structure, turning into an explosion) which leads to,

      2. Inert projectiles are safer to transport for the military. (no one has to sleep on a ship full of explosives)

      3. They projectiles are far cheeper to manufacture. (its a block of metal and a sabot, vs the complex things that go into a detonatable round that can be fired a long distance)

      4. The range. 100 mile range on these things means they can engage targets without risking the ship itself as much, which is always a plus in combat.

      5. One guy can operate it. If you ever watch any footage of large naval guns being fired, it tends to be a multi-person operation to load, fire, and work the gun. Less manpower devoted to a single operation is always helpful.

      --
      I've decided to Diversify my Holdings. I've divided my cash between my left and right pockets, instead of all in one.
    86. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by clodney · · Score: 0

      The projectiles are also much less affected by gravitational drop and windage - I would think proportional to the velocity - so accuracy will be better.

      Um, no. Gravity cares not how fast it is going. It will still start falling towards the earth the moment it is launched. Now it is true that while traveling at mach 5 the horizontal distance it drops will be much less over a unit of distance traveled than a slower shell, but it is still falling. I would be shocked if the targeting computers did not take gravity into account - unless they are skipping the computers and just using the force.

    87. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by thesupraman · · Score: 4, Informative

      The flight time at mach 7 for 200 miles is about 2.3 minutes, practice your highschool physics and work out how much it drops not allowing for drag.
      (hint: a LOT). That is assuming no loss of speed (which of course would be SIGNIFICANT).

      Which kind of helps, otherwise it could not reach the ground for much of a distance, but hell.. it still needs to be allowed for.

      But even worse, the effect of a crosswind along the trajectory path sums over that time also, and that matters as it is much less predictable.
      This is a kinetic kill vehicle - it needs to hit the target, without terminal guidance. At 200 miles, it simply will not (unless the target it BIG, as in a small
      town..). They will of course try and convince us this is a surgical weapon, however it is not - unless they start using terminal guidance, and good luck getting
      electronics to survive the electromagnetic environment of launch in this thing.

      This will of course allow them to more cheaply scattergun an enemy from a nice safe range - go USA!

    88. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1) Current Anti Tank rounds are comparably fast http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_energy_penetrator

      2) It is easier to carry if you are on a Nuclear Powered ship. Otherwise carrying that much of electricity (or storing it) safely is very difficult. You have to store the same amount of energy that is in the propellant, but you now have to worry about magnetic fields/lightning/static discharge/humidity etc. in addition to worrying about shocks/high temperature like you would with a propellant

      3) Cheaper - yes, if you have a nuclear power plant. Probably not, if you have to tote around a supercapacitor along to actually store all that electricity.

    89. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except that the "flames" are trailing the projectile in an area that is relatively low pressure instead of in front where the pressure is the highest, and the barrel of a rail gun is not air tight like a piston or normal gun barrel.

    90. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Assmasher · · Score: 1

      No, you don't, there are plenty of things that burn without oxygen simply because there are lots of other oxidizers. Oxygen just happens to be the most common.

      In any case, the combustion being referred to isn't "burning" it is the light emitted by the compressed gasses, and with oxygen being much more exciteable than nitrogen and their being the two most prevalent gases in this scenario, that's what I was referring to. This is what you see from a 'flame' in any case.

      --
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    91. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Navy's been working on a linear electric motor system (called EMALS) to replace steam catapults; the system is supposed to be able to accelerate 100k pounds of aircraft to 130 knots. This thing throws a 23 pound projectile at Mach 7, or 4630 knots. The speed of the projectile is 35.6x as high, but the mass of the airplane is 4347 times as much, so the total kinetic energy for the plane is actually 3.4 times as much as the projectile.

      Now, this does take more power than the ship can supply at an instant's notice, but it supposedly charges up in 45 seconds. Since the projectile takes less energy, it'll take less time to charge, so about 15 seconds per slug. Not the greatest, but the main guns on an Iowa class take 30 seconds per shot, so 5 of these would match an Iowa for fire rate (I'm not going to try to compare the damage). This would still work better with more power, but the Ford class carrier's reactors are supposed to put out 3 times as much power for slightly less volume, and reportedly the planned systems on the Ford class (including EMALS) will only be using half the reactor's output, so that seems to be being handled.

    92. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by vux984 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Why did you disagree with him "um no[...]" and then set out to say exactly why he is right?

      "Now it is true that while traveling at mach 5 the horizontal distance it drops will be much less over a unit of distance traveled than a slower shell,"

      Pretty much exactly what he said.

      "but it is still falling."

      He never said it wasn't. He said 'less affected' not 'not affected'.

      I would be shocked if the targeting computers did not take gravity into account - unless they are skipping the computers and just using the force.

      So now you are mocking him for what he said, after repeating him. Well played.

    93. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      Slap a few zeroes on whatever measure you care to use for the amount of energy involved... it's more than just a little bit of warm oil and smoke.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    94. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not entirely clear what the advantage of a railgun would be, it's very hard on the cannon. Psychology, I guess. It's an inert piece of metal that can't be jammed and is probably hard to spot on radar too.

      It's right there in the summary:

      'This capability will allow us to effectively counter a wide range of threats at a relatively low cost, while keeping our ships and sailors safer by removing the need to carry as many high-explosive weapons.'

      Not having large stock piles of explosives on board makes the ship safer.

    95. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is it possible to respond in an informative way, instead of adding a needlessly snarky rhetorical question at the end?

      Sharing information is a wonderful thing; being an asshole is not.

    96. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by timothy · · Score: 1

      I interpreted this to mean "because it covers more horizontal distance per second, it suffers less drop in the period of time it takes to reach point B from point A, making a flatter trajectory." Just like w/ faster, flatter bullets from a conventional gun ...

      --
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    97. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're forgetting one advantage that this has over lasers: lasers require line of sight and when you're talking ranges of 100 miles or so you have the curvature of the earth to contend with. At sea level, a laser has issues hitting a target 100 miles away, whereas a rail gun with significant power has a ballistic trajectory to work in it's favor.

      For the most part, this weapon would not be used in a ship-to-ship action. While it could be, it's primary purpose would be mobile artillery support for shore based forces. The current gun the Navy uses, the Mark 45 5" gun, has an effective range of 13 NM, so shore bombardment is limited. This thing with 100 NM means you're effectively providing fire support for troops at about 8X the range inland, making the US Navy even more valuable to marines in theater.

    98. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Well, that sounds pretty complicated.
      Every projectile, flying ballistic, drops in 1 second the exact same amount.
      Ofc, if it is faster it travels more distance in this second.

      --
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    99. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The air behind it might. There's a sudden loss of pressure, but the air particles also speed up...

    100. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by confused+one · · Score: 1

      IAA physicist and it's partially the ionization of the air being compressed as the mach 7 projectile leaves the bore, and it's partially plasma from the armature that vaporizes as the massive current pulse pushes though it.

    101. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would suspect detecting a railgun firing would be greatly possible as the target being fired at should be able to detect the unshielded electromagnetic spike in their direction many moments before the shell reaches them. This could in effect allow a quick change direction order for a miss.

    102. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wonder what the EMR footprint of the railgun firing is and how detectable that is at range.

    103. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by RubberDogBone · · Score: 1

      So? Congrats, you have found the enemy ship with the really powerful gun they just fired at yo- yeah it sort of stops being a thought about then.

      There hasn't been ship-to-ship gun battles in decades so nobody knows what it would even be like if opfor went at it with these weapons. But I bet they'd have a pretty good idea where the enemy was even before they fired this thing, and once they did fire it, they'd know for sure they were about to get a headache.

      The real question is, what the heck do they DO about it once they know they're being fired upon by this thing? You do, of course, what you'd do versus a conventional round, which all depends on the tactics being used for that particular battle. Sometimes you take hits for the team, too. So you let the supergun take out some non-critical assets while something more useful or valuable does other work.

      --
      Sig for hire.
    104. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Jarik+C-Bol · · Score: 1

      Projectile punches through the flames as it exits the barrel and the pressure ahead of it drops? heck, i'm just guessing anyways.

      --
      I've decided to Diversify my Holdings. I've divided my cash between my left and right pockets, instead of all in one.
    105. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yea, but how does it react to salt.

    106. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by JasperHW · · Score: 1

      Totally agree that it sounds like it will be a scatter gun at range and wildly inaccurate with an unguided projectile, that's not such a big deal in naval combat. The distances are vast and it's not like there's civilians to accidentally hit.

      Naval bombardment of land targets is a whole other story, however.

    107. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      ...there are plenty of things that burn without oxygen simply because there are lots of other oxidizers...

      I do not think that the word "oxidizer" means what you think it does.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    108. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Blaskowicz · · Score: 1

      Being hot is enough of a reason to emit light (see a classic lightbulb, tiny metal threads are heated at around 3000 Kelvin and they don't burn, else the bulb fails).
      In fact, in that weren't true then the flames over an open wood fire wouldn't emit light either. My guess is we have "flames" simply made of hot air when the gun fires, instead of a flame made of combustion products.

    109. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by budgenator · · Score: 1

      OK, hot, yes, but wouldn't they need something combustible to actually erupt into flame? Or what am I missing?

      The answer is PV = nRT the ideal gas law, as the projectile is moving at mach 5 it compresses the air in front of it and when the temperature of the compressed air reaches about 650C it looks like fire, which is gasses at about 650C.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    110. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Combustion refers to a reaction between a fuel and an oxidizer, not to light being emitted from mechanical heating of oxygen. And the light you see here is not oxygen being excited either, because it is the wrong color for line radiation and too optically thin for blackbody radiation. Normal flames require some amount of soot or particles to display blackbody radiation, which may not be present giving many flames that are nearly invisible despite hot temperatures, or display colors that are due to line transitions.

    111. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Assmasher · · Score: 1

      You mean like Chlorine trifluoride? Lol...

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    112. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      Regarding the background: that is an incredibly high-speed camera, being rotated at a very high speed (think "on a spring")...

      Most probably multiple cameras, prepositioned and synchronized.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    113. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by budgenator · · Score: 1

      Well actually in O2 + Cl2 -> 2ClO, oxygen would be the fuel and chlorine would be the oxidizer.

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      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    114. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Assmasher · · Score: 1

      Using the term combustion was shortcut to avoiding discussing the details of highly oxygenated plasmas. BTW, oxygen plasmas are yellow, much like flames...

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    115. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by mjwx · · Score: 1

      The range means you can fire it from beyond the horizon, so radar can never spot the firing. The speed means you have no way in hell of dodging it or shooting it down. And the kinetic energy of it means no armor will block it, short of armoring the ship to the point it can't move. Just take aim at the power plant or armory of the other ship and you get a guaranteed kill. I think the key advantage is the inability to be dodged or shot down like a shell, but the range of a missile. Also, I imagine detecting a missile launch is easier then detecting a railgun firing.

      If it's over the horizon, as you say then the projectile must be on a ballistic trajectory in which case it's going to have some inaccuracy. Not exactly a weapon you can use for pinpoint accuracy. You'll be trying just to hit the ship, not a precision strike against the armoury to power plant. There's a reason we eschewed big guns for guided missiles, a guided missile can be directed to hit a vulnerable point and has a significantly higher chance of hitting the target.

      Given the fact that the only big military ships left on the ocean are traditional aircraft carriers and these will get a lot smaller as drones take place of manned strike craft, its unlikely this is going to be useful as an anti-ship weapon. It might be useful to bombard land targets, but you'll need more than one to be more effective than traditional or rocket artillery which will be a hell of a lot more portable.

      As far as detection goes, the firing event isn't the most detectable thing, it's the ship itself. If you've got an over the horizon radar system (like a radar equipped plane) then you'll detect the ship before it fires. If you haven't, firing from over the horizon wont be that detectable (both missiles and ballistic projectiles fired from outside detection range can be traced back to their point of origin, however the missile can change course, so you can fire it at a right angle to the target to prevent it being traced back).

      My question is, what is the power requirements and how big is the actual canon. I wonder this because most navies in the world operate mostly frigates with smallish guns and guided missiles. Could this be fitted to something like the Australian ANZAC class frigate in lieu of the vertical launch system or 54 mm autocannon? What is the recharge time and will it require an extra generator?

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    116. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by budgenator · · Score: 1

      Seems like uranium would be more massive than that at the apparent volume of the projo.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    117. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All that should matter is the energy in each cap or in each section depending on how you've wired the bank. If you are trying to make some argument about the entire bank being relevant, you are either dealing with a badly designed bank (or talking about a naval ship sustaining damage over a very large area that would involve much more energy than the bank). The caps should be connected by fusable links, with additional links in critical places or between sections, so that when there is a fault in one cap or section, the bank cannot dump the entire bank's energy into the fault, and instead you have a much smaller fraction (unless the fusable links were designed wrong or poorly maintained, and a plasma arc maintains the connection or makes new connections). When writing the post you replied to, I was referring to have experience on banks composed of similar caps to what you can see in some of the images, with total energy well into the several tens of MJ. Failures amounted to one cap spilling its guts, with a ball of sparks and smoke, and occasional a few flung pieces of buswork.

    118. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A dumb projectile also means your enemy can back trace your direction after one shot, and infer your position from the fact your are a ship (thus at sea level) and the estimated velocity of the projectile, the flight path will only intersect sea level at one point.

      Furthermore, firing beyond the horizon from sea level means you go to depend on gravity to bend the projectile path down at your target at sea level, so closer or farther target means slower projectile and less damage. It also means it cannot hit below sea surface, unlike torpedoes, so important structures like the engine, which are usually under sea level, cannot be hit.

      Without explosives also means it will simply pass through thin structures like a bullet through a sheet of paper. It punched a hole, but little else.

      So the counter is to have ships that mostly submerged, with only thin structure above sea surface. Practically a floating submarine.

    119. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      No, 2ClO denotes chlorine oxide, not oxygen chloride. So oxygen is still the oxidizing agent. Even with more covalent bonds, oxygen being stronger oxidizing agent, can not be said to being oxidized here.

      Only elemental oxidizing agent stronger than oxygen is fluorine, but I've never heard of oxygen fluoride.

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
    120. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you think that speed is fast enough to get much ionization, considering a Maxwellian distribution will have 99.9% of the population too low speed to cause ionization of oxygen or nitrogen at a couple eV temperature (10000-20000 K)? Getting ionization at those temperatures is difficult enough with electrical arcs only getting a couple percent, or in the case of really low pressure gas in the upper atmosphere where the reionization time is longer. Not to mention heating up the air in front of it by that much would consume several tens of megawatts of power roughly, when its total kinetic energy is about 25 MJ.

    121. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      While any superheated gases can glow visibly, flame has a stricter definition which does not allow your statement to be true. You'll have to redefine flame for that.

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
    122. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Amongst all the people claiming it is the compression of air are already a few posts trying to point out that the sabot includes an armature to conduct the current used by the rail gun to accelerate the round, and that the armature is partially vaporized in the process from the large amount of current. The resulting spray of plasma, vaporized metal, and molten metal makes a heck of a fireball (and a mess that is part of what they spent the last decade working on dealing with).

    123. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are not an artilleryman.

    124. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      BTW, oxygen plasmas are yellow, much like flames...

      At what pressures and temperatures? High temperature oxygen plasmas (relative to say a flame temperature) have a blueish color, because all but one of the strong lines of O II are in the 400-500 nm range. Low temperature oxygen plasmas are deep red because the OI bright lines at 777 and 725 nm, with other lines not becoming bright enough before you hit the temperatures that easily ionize everything at any pressure approachable on Earth's surface. The only place you get easily visible yellowish color is in aurora where the low density and temperature allows for the 557 nm transition between excited states to occur enough in a non-equilibrium plasma. Otherwise, any other low temperature (especially if in regime where Saha equation works) will be dominated by red, or by ionized transitions in the blue. Just throwing a large amount of oxygen into some dense plasma in the lower Earth atmosphere will not get you yellow (lots of other junk will though).

    125. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Air by itself the size of a flame is too thin to have visible incandescence, and if you choose the right gases you can have a near invisible or blue flame heating a piece of metal in it beyond red hot. Hot air will emit plenty of light when you get it hot enough to ionize, but that is quite a bit hotter than 650 C

    126. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 1

      other stuff burns by combining rapidly with oxygen.

      Including oxygen.

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    127. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Mateorabi · · Score: 1

      On it's problematic use as rocket fuel oxidizer: "...the operator is confronted with the problem of coping with a metal-fluorine fire. For dealing with this situation, I have always recommended a good pair of running shoes." -John Drury Clark

      --
      "You saved 1968." - Ms. Valerie Pringle to the crew of Apollo 8

    128. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by j-beda · · Score: 1

      The nitrogen under pressure remains inert, but the oxygen will coumbust at those levels.

      Combustion is when something (rapidly) combines chemically with oxygen. Oxygen gas (molecules of two oxygen atoms) does not combust.

      I would not be too surprised if other parts of the air (N2, H2O vapour, other gasses or particulate crap that might be around) underwent chemical changes due to the sudden shock of being pushed out of the way of the projectile, and some of those things might burn. The projectile seems to have a bunch of packing fall away as it leaves the barrel - maybe some of that stuff burns.

    129. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by blindseer · · Score: 3, Interesting

      traditional aircraft carriers and these will get a lot smaller as drones take place of manned strike craft,

      I also believe aircraft carriers will get smaller but not for the reasons you state. I believe that they will get smaller because there will be a greater reliance on vertical lift aircraft, helicopters and tilt-wings. I also believe that aircraft will get faster and have longer range, allowing for lesser reliance on carriers. The politics of flying through nations that might not like to get involved would be solved with aircraft that fly high enough to be considered orbital, and therefore technically in outer space, and therefore flying above "airspace".

      Much of that is more about the "how" of shrinking aircraft carriers, the "why" is more about economics. Current carriers are big, slow, and very expensive which makes them easy and tempting targets. For the price of one US Navy aircraft carrier the Navy could have four amphibious assault ships, either choice capable of carrying 80+ aircraft. The amphibious assault ships get cheaper by the dozen but the aircraft carriers cannot, there are only a dozen afloat at any given time which makes economies of scale difficult.

      Part of what makes aircraft carriers so expensive is the power plant, nuclear power is expensive. It looks like newer, smaller, safer, reactors which will allow for putting nuclear power in smaller ships, removing the range advantage of the larger aircraft carrier. Addition of jet fuel production systems on board means that they will not need to have oilers come by as often for supplies.

      Smaller, faster, cheaper, and still capable of long term missions would be a great alternative to the super carriers we have now. Easier to defend against cannon fire and missiles, due to smaller size. If one is lost or damaged in battle then the reduction in fighting capability is reduced.

      I believe your description of sea battles are accurate. The cannon fire is not fast or accurate enough to compete with missiles. Rail guns increase the rate of fire, reduce the weight of the ammunition, and reduce the cost, making it a very good alternative to current missiles and cannons. The range and accuracy of the rail guns might not yet compare to that of the missiles but are still a leap in improvement over cannons.

      --
      I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
    130. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Chrisq · · Score: 1

      "he's not famous, he's in famous."

      He's also a becile (as opposed to am imbecile).

    131. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Chrisq · · Score: 1

      But it's a function of time. Since the projectile traverses the distance in, e.g., 1/5 the time, the gravitational drop (I forget the real term) will only be 1/5 as much.

      Maybe not at those speeds, you are approaching orbital velocity at sea level. With no atmosphere gravity would just about keep it level with the ground, curving it around the earth.

    132. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      Not only with oxygen. Chlorine and fluorine oxidize stuff way faster. That is why ClF3 is so much "fun".
      (burns sand, burns concrete, burns water, burns glass, burns workbenches, burns researchers, burns labs, burns buildings. All while emitting nasty fluorine based gasses like large quantities of HF. Fun stuff.)

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
    133. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by benzapp · · Score: 1

      Didn't the US Navy retire heavy artillery? Could that be why the rounds are so expensive?

      --
      I don't read or respond to AC posts
    134. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      F2O2 although the properties are interesting.
      For more on really really dangerous chemicals and why you do not wish to handle them read Ignition!.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
    135. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Assmasher · · Score: 1

      Running shoes sounds 'optimistic' ;)...

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    136. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Assmasher · · Score: 1

      Combustion is when something (rapidly) combines chemically with oxygen. Oxygen gas (molecules of two oxygen atoms) does not combust.

      Yes, I'm guilty of very loosely (as in 'incorrectly') using the term combustion to describe the visual equivalent. I thought it would save me some time, it did not. ;)

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    137. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      While oxygen is the most common oxidizing agent it is not the only one or even the strongest one. Oxidizing just bears a similar name because usually oxygen is the oxidizer. Chlorine is more powerful and fluorine is even stronger than that.
      Some nasty stuff like ClF3 will oxidize with the silicon in sand, expelling the oxygen.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
    138. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by BitZtream · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Brilliantly written papers are ones that explain the subject matter in an understandable way to the target audience.

      You don't send the same paper to theoretical physicist as you send to a senator.

      If you don't realize that, you're not anywhere near as smart and clever as you think you are. Do you expect a guy who's job is politics to REALLY ALSO know all the same shit as the guy who spends his entire life working on the physics of it? Are you really that unaware of the people in the world around you not all knowing what you know?

      You should correct your sig to just say 'I'm an idiot' so its appropriate instead of trying to show everyone else how clever you aren't.

      --
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    139. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      No. Oxygen does not oxidize more oxygen.

      --
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    140. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      No they don't.

      Only oxygen can oxidize something, by definition.

      Converting or catalyzing something to oxygen doesn't mean the original component oxidizes, it just means you don't understand chemical reactions.

      --
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    141. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      Oxygen doesn't do shit without fuel, unless you get to the fusion stage, but being that we can't do that with even hydrogen, we're certainly not fusing oxygen on purpose.

      Oxygen under pressures lower than required for fusion won't burn, by definition, it can't. You can't oxidize oxygen any more than it already is.

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    142. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      Which requires oxygen to do anything useful.

      Seriously, look at the reaction process for what you're talking about ... you'll notice there is no reaction without adding oxygen ... in the form of water.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C...

      But hey, don't let basic chemistry stand in your way of looking silly.

      YOU CAN NOT OXIDIZE WITHOUT OXYGEN. LOOK AT THE DEFINITION OF OXIDIZE.

      --
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    143. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Assmasher · · Score: 1

      Oxygen doesn't do shit without fuel

      I guess those electrochemists who study high pressure oxygen plasmas are a bunch of idiots...

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    144. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Alsn · · Score: 1

      You are incorrect. The definition of "oxidation" is contrary to popular belief not "to react with oxygen".

      Oxidation is by definition: A loss of electrons, or an increase in oxidation state.

      What you are referring to is simply *one* example of oxidation and not the entire definition.

    145. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by fellip_nectar · · Score: 1

      No. Oxidation means a gain in oxidation state or the loss of electron(s) by an ion/molecule/atom during any redox reaction - It is not specific to reactions involving Oxygen.

      --
      Worst. Signature. Ever.
    146. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Assmasher · · Score: 1

      Seriously, look at the reaction process for what you're talking about ... you'll notice there is no reaction without adding oxygen ... in the form of water.

      Did you even bother to read the article you linked to? LOL. It clearly states that it oxidizes several metals. It then goes on to describe the reaction that you're trying to claim is the only oxidation case. In fact, the article you linked lists at least four chemical oxidations above and beyond those involving metals.

      You seem to only capable of reading about the ones that have to do with water. Rather selective of you.

      But hey, don't let basic chemistry stand in your way of looking silly.

      Don't let basic reading skills stand in your way of looking silly [sic].

      YOU CAN NOT OXIDIZE WITHOUT OXYGEN.

      Yes, you can. The article you linked points this out to you as well.

      LOOK AT THE DEFINITION OF OXIDIZE.

      You appear to be obsessed with the colloquial definition of 'oxidize.' You should check out the formal definition; especially the part that relates it entirely to electron transfer.

      See the stupid people who agree with me:

      http://www.chemguide.co.uk/ino...

      Don't just read the first part (the beginners' definition), read down to the "most important use of the terms oxidation" part...

      Maybe I should have typed that in all caps so you could read it...

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    147. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by MrNiceguy_KS · · Score: 1

      Or a laser version of same, which IIRC they are also working on.

      My understanding of the laser defense systems is that they work by heating the incoming projectile, causing the explosives within the warhead to detonate. As the article mentioned, one advantage of a railgun is that the "warhead" is a chunk of inert metal. So unless your laser is powerful enough to melt something that we already know can withstand air friction at Mach 7...

      --
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    148. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only oxygen can oxidize something, by definition.

      In that case, I suggest you take a look at the definition of oxidization.

    149. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And here I have been burning my titanium in pure nitrogen like a chump.

    150. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I recall it being a combination of metal filings from the projectile oxidizing rapidly and plasma.

    151. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the same reason that meteorites are fiery when they enter the atmosphere.

    152. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      YOU CAN NOT OXIDIZE WITHOUT OXYGEN. LOOK AT THE DEFINITION OF OXIDIZE.

      Maybe if you are going to put it in all caps, you should have double checked the definition yourself. Your insistence that oxidization involves only oxygen is over a hundred years out of date, and the generalized definition is clearly spelled out in even a 1920s chemistry textbook I got from my grandfather.

    153. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by drainbramage · · Score: 1

      Superheated gases?
      Thought is was called plasma, no?
      Watch a video of a Sprint missile launch from the mid 1970's..
      That little beast went from 0 to Mach 10 in about 5 seconds.

      --
      No brain, no pain.
    154. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Luckily the crosswinds are *on average* pretty stable over such a distance, at the relevant time scale (minutes). Have a drone hover over the target and zero in. First shots will miss, yes, but CEP may be 1/2 mile for a 200 mile range. Don't try to take out a bunker inside a city, but an army base or inland is fair game. Airports are similarly sized targets.

    155. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (IAalsoAP) I'd think the EMP can be reasonably mitigated with a timely chaff release, or similar shielding ideas. However, I'm wondering about the path of the projectile. The thing is hypersonic, the path will be superheated - that might ionize the air. And ionized air *will* show up on radar. You have a 200 mile trajectory pointing right back at the launch site. Don't worry if you miss a few miles here and there, or even if the launch site is beyond your horizon.

    156. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 1

      I see that now. I guess I was remembering some not-scientifically-valid crime show from a while ago. Or maybe not remembering it correctly. Se la vie.

      Anyway, thanks for not going all chem-professor on me. :^)

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    157. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      Plasma is not a necessity for glowing - typically gases start visibly glowing at lower temperatures than needed to qualify as plasma. So low temperature flames glow without being plasma.

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
    158. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Chrontius · · Score: 1

      Shore bombardment is totally a thing.

      This lets us do it from a safe range, or with surgical precision --- pick one.

    159. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by ClickOnThis · · Score: 1

      (IAalsoAP) I'd think the EMP can be reasonably mitigated with a timely chaff release, or similar shielding ideas.

      A Faraday Cage built around the rail-gun might help with shielding. I'm not sure how chaff would help in that regard, unless the pieces of chaff are comparable to or larger than the majority of the wavelengths in the EMP's power-spectrum.

      However, I'm wondering about the path of the projectile. The thing is hypersonic, the path will be superheated - that might ionize the air. And ionized air *will* show up on radar. You have a 200 mile trajectory pointing right back at the launch site. Don't worry if you miss a few miles here and there, or even if the launch site is beyond your horizon.

      Excellent point. We've been bouncing radio waves off ionized gases (aka plasmas) since the time of Marconi.

      --
      If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
  4. Power? by asmkm22 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Can it be efficiently powered, though? It always seemed like the power draw was the main issue with these kinds of guns, effectively limiting them to a few shots.

    1. Re:Power? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would bet the Navy plans to put them on large ships with nuclear reactors on board. Given that these scale really well and are a proven technology I don't think the Navy should have a problem. Now making a tank that uses this gun that might be hard.

    2. Re:Power? by Ryyuajnin · · Score: 2

      Future Aircraft Carrier, USS-Nikola, to be constructed primarily of Lithium-Ion Batteries.

    3. Re:Power? by PortHaven · · Score: 2

      New cruisers and carriers just coming out were spec'd to have 3x-6x power generation. New carriers are getting rid of steam catapults in lieu of railgun catapults as well.

    4. Re:Power? by alexander_686 · · Score: 1

      Yes. It is going to be powered by (indirectly) by diesel, which is flexible – in the sense that it is widely available, can be used for lots of things, etc. It does not have its own oxidizer, so it is safer to handle, has higher energy density, etc. So a single ship could fire more rounds at a lower cost than a traditional big gun battle ship.

      Energy is not the issue – it is the rate of fire. Diesel engines power the supper capacitors, they discharge to fire the gun, and then fill them up again. I have read that this cycle might be measured in minutes instead of seconds. How big of an issue that it will be is a big question.

    5. Re:Power? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      AFAIK most large non-nuclear USN ships are turbo-electric, which means they have some huge generators. The Ford class carriers (and the F-35 for that matter) are also being designed to be able to generate huge amounts of electric power. The Navy is making serious efforts to future-proof their toys with regards to the expected huge energy requirements of future weapon systems.

    6. Re:Power? by gstoddart · · Score: 4, Funny

      No, you're mistaken ... that's the USS-Nokia. ;-)

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    7. Re:Power? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The amount of energy it takes isn't the problem, it's how fast the energy has to be released. Your choices are basically a capacitor or a flywheel (specifically a compensated pulsed alternator or "compulsator", as it is sometimes called, which releases energy quickly as a DC pulse). I don't know which is used in the lab, but on a ship you would probably almost certainly go with the flywheel (significantly higher energy density relative to volume and mass).

    8. Re:Power? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They are going to be mounted on nuclear powered ships that are freeing up a lot of room - steam catapults, HE ordinance storage, etc. They are trying to replace all energy systems on modern ships with one unified power source: the reactor.

      More room for a reactor, armor and shielding - longer range with cheap warheads - ships that don't explode because you set off their arms cache. If I was younger, I'd be willing to serve on one of these vessels.

    9. Re:Power? by saider · · Score: 2

      The catapults (EMALS) are not railguns, they are essentially linear motors. As I understand they use different effects to operate.

      --


      Remember, You are unique...just like everyone else.
    10. Re:Power? by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Source?

      I would think these would be a much more natural fit for nuclear-powered vessels, where the capacitors can be recharged far more quickly. Not that I doubt they'll be used in other scenarios as well, but for high firing rates you'll want *real* power.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    11. Re:Power? by dkf · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Energy is not the issue – it is the rate of fire. Diesel engines power the supper capacitors, they discharge to fire the gun, and then fill them up again. I have read that this cycle might be measured in minutes instead of seconds. How big of an issue that it will be is a big question.

      That depends on how many capacitor banks you've got, yes? Or possibly the sustained power output of the generators, though that's perhaps more of an issue for sustained firing. (Naval ships are pretty big; you can fit a lot of capacitors and generators in there.)

      What I'm impressed at is that they can fire the railgun multiple times instead of needing to strip it down and rebuild it each time. That was always the problem with the early railguns; they'd be fine firing once but after that would be so burned up from the currents that they'd be unable to take a second shot on any reasonable timescale. They were cool, but not practical weapons. I'm guessing that that must've been solved, and the result is that pure kinetic weaponry starts to make sense again for ship-level encounters.

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    12. Re:Power? by benjfowler · · Score: 1

      Or bloody huge supercapacitors, as it were.

    13. Re:Power? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The main issue was not power, although a big part of it. It was in essence, wear and tear; the damage done to the barrel with each firing.

    14. Re:Power? by Solandri · · Score: 5, Informative

      23 lbs = 10.5 kg
      Mach 7 = 5300 mph = 2382 m/s
      KE = 0.5mv^2 = 59.6 MJ

      The ship in question has four 9100 kW diesel engines (12,200 hp).

      Assuming you have a big enough capacitor, the output from just one diesel engine should be enough to power a round every 6.5 seconds. There are conversion and efficiency losses, so probably every 15-20 seconds is more realistic.

      Also note that 59.6 MJ is about equivalent to 14 kilos of TNT. So the energy yield of this will be on the order of a high explosive round from a 5 inch shell (which weighs about 30 kg), assuming the projectile doesn't pass entirely through the target.

    15. Re:Power? by Solandri · · Score: 1

      Whoops, left out the 0.5 in the KE calcs. Divide the times by 2.

    16. Re:Power? by lbmouse · · Score: 3, Funny

      C'mon! you just ruined it for me. I wanted to see an F-18 get launched off a carrier deck at mach 7.

    17. Re:Power? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      No, we sold that one to the Chinese.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    18. Re:Power? by operagost · · Score: 1

      With a name like that, it will be indestructible.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    19. Re:Power? by TuringCheck · · Score: 1

      Whoops, left out the 0.5 in the KE calcs. Divide the times by 2.

      You also left out efficiency and sabot mass so maybe multiply the times by some amount.

    20. Re:Power? by rjstanford · · Score: 1

      Diesel engines power the supper capacitors

      I always thought that a bunch of hard-working 18yo guys had more than enough supper capacity, even when just powered by slop and beer.

      --
      You're special forces then? That's great! I just love your olympics!
    21. Re:Power? by avandesande · · Score: 1

      Not sure if the Navy design uses one but they can be powered with a compulsator as well.

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
    22. Re:Power? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      You need massive banks of capacitors to store and then discharge that energy very rapidly. There is going to be a lot of heat generated. The lifetime of the capacitors and heat dissipation ability are probably the limiting factors.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    23. Re:Power? by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

      IIRC I thought the army already had tested one of these on a modified Abrams?

    24. Re:Power? by rtaylor · · Score: 1

      The largest diesel ship engines can kick out 80MW of power (100,000 hp) which is right in the middle of the marine nuclear range (40MW to 100MW is common).

      The main benefit to nukes, as currently used on surface ships, is the size of the fuel tank.

      --
      Rod Taylor
    25. Re:Power? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, my first two thoughts on reading the headline were "What's the sustained rate of fire on that thing?" and "I wonder how long the barrel lasts."

    26. Re:Power? by Prien715 · · Score: 1

      ...but everyone knows the USS Nokia is a burning platform.

      --
      -- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
    27. Re:Power? by BradMajors · · Score: 1

      It won't be travelling at Mach 7 after it has travelled 100 miles to the target.

    28. Re:Power? by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 1

      You need massive banks of capacitors to store and then discharge that energy very rapidly. There is going to be a lot of heat generated. The lifetime of the capacitors and heat dissipation ability are probably the limiting factors.

      On the plus side, you're floating on top of a very large, very agreeable heat sink.

    29. Re:Power? by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      KE = 0.5mv^2 = 59.6 MJ

      By way of comparison, a shell from a 16" naval gun weighs in at about 400MJ. Those shells could also pack about half a ton of high explosives, making the total energy delivery about 2.5GJ.

      Interestingly, in some WWII naval enconuters where some unarmoured escort (basically unarmoured converted merchant shipts) carriers were engaged at extreme range, the AP shells passed all the way through without triggering the explosives inside and did little damage.

      Similar things have been observed with the DU anti-tank rounds. They pass through lightly armoured vehicles causing surprisingly little damage.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    30. Re:Power? by idontgno · · Score: 1

      I remember hearing a proposal that the barrel (or rail) would be magazine-fed along with the armature and round. Kinda defeats the probable space/weight advantages over a chemically-propelled round, but at least you don't have tons of explosive propellants in the magazine.

      I don't know how serious the proposal was. But it would solve the rate-of-fire issue.

      --
      Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
    31. Re:Power? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Use potatoes to make your mash. Pilots are a bit too expensive, and drones still too fragile, to go 0-M7 in 100 yards.

    32. Re:Power? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      assuming the projectile doesn't pass entirely through the target.

      You say that like it is a bad thing. Passing entirely thru a ship at sea would make life rather difficult on said ship.

    33. Re:Power? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So if the ship in question requires two engines to power the drive train and one to manage on-board operational needs, that means they've got one fully spare generator. Since they could easily switch one propulsion engine over (you aren't going to be moving very fast while positioning and firing anyway), that means using flywheels instead of caps, they could run up one of these every 8-10 seconds. Provides time to get a pretty decent lock on the target; when you consider the time to delivery of one of these vs classic shells, most of the time will be spent in the charging cycle. Delivery is almost instant.

      One thing I'm wondering about: people talk about over the horizon delivery -- but if you fire one of these over the horizon, isn't the trajectory going to be pretty flat until much of the kinetic energy is spent? I guess they can dial in a precise amount of energy (that full charge is for a full distance throw) to achieve the desired trajectory, but then your velocity will be less. Still, this is a great thing in itself, as your target won't know the angle of attack from one round to the next, and the velocity question hardly matters at those speeds. Plus, as the target gets closer, recharge time shrinks (less power needed for line of sight, as they could easily fire these at Mach 5 and still be doing just fine at those distances).

    34. Re:Power? by nickersonm · · Score: 1

      I recall reading that at least one of the two models to be tested soon has easily-replaceable rails that need to be changed every few shots.

    35. Re:Power? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      IIRC, no. The Langley, Lexington, Saratoga and New Mexico were turbo-electric. That was in the 1930's.
      ( Lexington supplied power to Tacoma Washington during a power failure at that city ).'
      The Tulibee class submarines were also. 1960's.
      It would make sense ( to me anyway ) with this form of armament, but no.

    36. Re:Power? by El+Puerco+Loco · · Score: 1

      It's basically an electric version of the Abrams tank main gun. Similar projectile of around the same weight, but the Abrams can only fire it at around Mach 5.

    37. Re:Power? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can it be efficiently powered, though? It always seemed like the power draw was the main issue with these kinds of guns, effectively limiting them to a few shots.

      I thought it was damage to the gun itself that limited the number of rounds.

    38. Re:Power? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      HE is far less dense than the body of the shells. The armour piercing shells fired by the 16" rifles contained only 18Kg of HE. 70Kg for the non AP shell.
      Only the Royal Navy went for very large bursting charges but even then these were only 22Kg for the 15" 42cal Mk1, and 27Kg for a never made 16" shell for comparison to the US weapon.

    39. Re:Power? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They are working on electric catapults for this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_Aircraft_Launch_System

    40. Re:Power? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Navy's latest product might be pilot jam, if you did that.

    41. Re:Power? by Chrontius · · Score: 1

      If we're going to give them all Aegis radars, they're going to need a lot of that juice for active sensors, the computers to run them, and the cooling to keep both from melting.

  5. Shoot The Moon! by Ryyuajnin · · Score: 1

    It'd be worth the court marshal...

    1. Re:Shoot The Moon! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's be neat! Sadly, this weapon only has a 100 mile range. You'd need to increase the range by 2,389 times that to hit the moon. ;(

    2. Re:Shoot The Moon! by swaq · · Score: 1

      Mach 7 is about 1/5th of the way to escape velocity, at least.

    3. Re:Shoot The Moon! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We have the technology, the time is now, science can wait no longer, children are our future, America can, should, must, and will blow up the moon!

    4. Re:Shoot The Moon! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, just enough to get out of our atmosphere, once your in space it should continue forever.

    5. Re:Shoot The Moon! by Marc_Hawke · · Score: 1

      No, you just have to get it out of the atmosphere and aimed right. I'm pretty sure mach 7 is good enough for 'escape velocity'.

      --
      --Welcome to the Realm of the Hawke--
    6. Re:Shoot The Moon! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      not fast enough. 25000 mph required.

      http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_velocity

    7. Re:Shoot The Moon! by jerquiaga · · Score: 1

      Not quite. Mach 7 is 2.38 km/s, and escape velocity is about 11 km/s.

    8. Re:Shoot The Moon! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It'd be worth the court marshal...

      Wouldn't surprise me if someone tried.

      I've seen basketballs get shot out of Mk 46 torpedo tubes, and seagulls fried in flight with SPG-55 (old-style CG) fire control radars - which worked really well as a targetable microwave oven.

    9. Re:Shoot The Moon! by kenaaker · · Score: 3, Informative
      Escape velocity is Mach 33, 11.2 kilometers/second, orbital velocity is Mach 25, 7.7 kilometers/second.

      It's got a ways to go.

    10. Re:Shoot The Moon! by nospam007 · · Score: 1

      "Escape velocity is Mach 33, 11.2 kilometers/second, orbital velocity is Mach 25, 7.7 kilometers/second.

      It's got a ways to go."

      The navy will secretly transport it to the moon, there the speed will be enough.

    11. Re:Shoot The Moon! by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      you're committing the sin of Jules Verne which he later used as plot device in second part of his moon journey novel. A ballistic flight from gun inside the atmosphere will lose a great deal of energy to the atmosphere, and so projectile needs *more* velocity than a rocket continuing to accelerate to needed velocity outside the atmosphere

    12. Re:Shoot The Moon! by rjstanford · · Score: 4, Funny

      The navy will secretly transport it to the moon, there the speed will be enough.

      Yes, but who're you going to crew it with, convicts? They'll just build another one and throw rocks at us.

      --
      You're special forces then? That's great! I just love your olympics!
    13. Re:Shoot The Moon! by Talderas · · Score: 1

      Using the children?

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    14. Re:Shoot The Moon! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      or perhaps a second low earth magnetic jump point to accelerate the projectile... just don;t miss the alignment

    15. Re:Shoot The Moon! by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      You forgot about gravity. Escape velocity at sea level is around Mach 33. Obviously you don't need to completely escape Earth's gravity, since at the distance of the moon you're still within its effect.
      You do have to add extra speed to account for air friction though, which at that speed is considerable.
      I tried googling the gravitational energy difference between sea level and the Moon's orbit but got distracted and found this quote

      a simple calculation based on a 1-kilogram cubic projectile launched at a muzzle velocity of 39,600 KPH at sea level shows that it will lose 20% of its velocity and a good part of its ablative thermal protection in the first 16 meters of flight.

      16 metres is pretty short compared to the 100km of atmosphere you need to get through.

      Basically, if you can shoot something out of the atmosphere, it'll just orbit Earth. It's never been done before and never even been tried.

    16. Re:Shoot The Moon! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Robots.

      Just think, 6000mph, then accelerated by gravity through the atmosphere to target.
      On the other hand, 30+ hours for a shell to arrive is a LONG time.

    17. Re:Shoot The Moon! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And rocks thrown down from the moon are gonna hurt a lot more than these things.

  6. "Low Cost" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Would any of our resident physicists care to compare the "cost" in terms of energy for firing the railgun vs firing shells with conventional guns? Just curious.

    1. Re:"Low Cost" by PortHaven · · Score: 4, Informative

      Railgun $25,000 a round versus $1,000,000 a round for missiles.

      Cost on just purely physics level, is rather irrelevant. It is economics that are the limiting factor.

    2. Re:"Low Cost" by WilliamGeorge · · Score: 1

      It isn't built to compare with cannons / guns, which our naval ships no longer use for ship to ship or ship to shore engagement. It is designed to replace or augment missiles, and the cost of the round fired is ~$25k which is an order of magnitude or two less than similar-ranged missile technology.

      --
      William George
    3. Re:"Low Cost" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      conventional guns

      Conventional guns.... as opposed to the guided missiles they're actually using?

    4. Re:"Low Cost" by garyebickford · · Score: 1

      I'll add that I just read that 155mm rounds cost $50,000 each. So it's even cheaper than conventional artillery.

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    5. Re:"Low Cost" by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      So, while a ship might fire 2 or 3 missiles in an engagement, they can fire hundreds of these...

    6. Re:"Low Cost" by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      How does the rail gun range compare to the "big" conventional guns. I know the conventionals can take out bridges 100 miles inland.

    7. Re:"Low Cost" by Talderas · · Score: 1

      The big guns on battleships in WW2 had around a 20-25 mile range. Land based artillery guns cap out at just under 20 miles. Rockets are much longer though but they're not kinetic weaponry.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    8. Re:"Low Cost" by schlachter · · Score: 1

      and that ratio will lead us to fire on 40x the number of targets next time around rather than the lowering of the budget.

      --
      My God can beat up your God. Just kidding...don't take offense. I know there's no God.
    9. Re:"Low Cost" by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      I seem to remember stories of "ships offshore" during Vietnam firing something like a 16" gun to take out bridges 80+ miles inland... Could be distorting something, too lazy to Wikipedia right now.

    10. Re:"Low Cost" by garyebickford · · Score: 1

      I've seen numbers up to 200 miles, vs. typically 30-40 miles for conventional rounds.

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    11. Re:"Low Cost" by steveha · · Score: 1

      I'm wondering if the $25,000 round is inert, or if it includes guidance.

      The Navy has been talking about railgun projectiles with GPS guidance. All it would take is movable steering fins and a computer to drive them.

      http://www.wired.com/2012/08/guided-supersonic-bullets/

      No matter how good your targeting computers are, I think you need active guidance any time you are talking about a 100-mile range.

      If I have done my math correctly, it will take about 67 seconds for a Mach 7 projectile to travel 100 miles (and that's assuming constant speed, not accounting for drag). That's a long time for a free-flying projectile to be subject to random winds.

      Of course I'm not a physicist or ballistics expert. If I have made a mistake here, please let me know.

      --
      lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
    12. Re:"Low Cost" by volmtech · · Score: 2

      Ex Vietnam era Navy Vet. The "shell" fired is part rocket. This extends the range but uses a smaller warhead. They even had a small version for the 5 in guns my destroyer carried.

    13. Re:"Low Cost" by niftymitch · · Score: 2

      I'll add that I just read that 155mm rounds cost $50,000 each. So it's even cheaper than conventional artillery.

      Citation please.

      The new GPS radar guided Excalibur perhaps. But no a standard HE round.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M...

      The max range of a 155 round is a lot shorter than some are indicating.
      16000 yards or about 9 miles for the howitzer. It is necessary to
      not confuse naval guns with army howitzers. Since I am an Army guy
      I will not worry about naval guns beyond acknowledging that "guns" have
      longer range but the max is about 23 miles.

      Rail guns are interesting as kinetic weapons. The projectile must be
      something dense and durable. One guess would be tungsten, or tungsten carbide, depleted
      uranium perhaps. Depleted uranium amo is commonly jacketed with gliding metal to protect
      the barrel for sure. I wonder if U has sufficient strength as is for a rail gun acceleration profile.

      There is a big gap between modern guns ~25 miles and cruise missiles, both range and cost.
      Perhaps this is the true goal of a rail gun.

            http://www.g2mil.com/8inchguns...

      --
      Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
    14. Re:"Low Cost" by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      The navy no longer uses cannons/guns for ship to ship or ship to shore? Guess they should remove the two 30mm guns from the Littoral then. Oh, and what's that on the DDX?...oh yes, a 155mm "Advanced Gun System".

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    15. Re:"Low Cost" by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      Depleted uranium has the tendency to ignite with air at 700 ÂC. It may be so that the compression heating from the speed exceeds that temperature. In that case the projectile may turn into a nice cloud of poisonous uranium oxide. On your ship.

      In short: I'd advise a tungsten coating around the uranium if they go that way. The hull of the target ship will strip away the tungsten. The friction will make it exceed 700 ÂC. The scientists working on this probably already know that.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
    16. Re:"Low Cost" by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      That explains it... all I ever heard were "big shells," assumed they were simple artillery.

    17. Re:"Low Cost" by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      Of course, the navy has all kinds of places on aircraft carriers for machining parts, so it's not out of reason that they could refurbish the rails / barrels while at sea.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    18. Re:"Low Cost" by WilliamGeorge · · Score: 1

      Tiny cannons on a close-to-shore (littoral) ship are a bit different. We don't have battleships and cruisers with massive cannons anymore, though, like we did in WWI / WWII. The last time a battleship shelled an on-shore location - or fired its main guns in combat at all, so far as I am aware - was back in the Kuwait war in 1991.

      Yes, we (the US) have *one* ship now with a serious cannon system... but even it is more like artillery than a traditional ship cannon, from my limited understanding.

      --
      William George
    19. Re:"Low Cost" by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      Okay, well your original comment didn't say anything about battleship artillery, and I'll agree that there's nothing similar for shore bombardment anymore. With respect to ship to ship, your comment didn't hold water.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    20. Re:"Low Cost" by WilliamGeorge · · Score: 1

      When I was talking about ship to ship, I mean if one of our destroyers or cruisers had to engage a similar class of ship from an opposing navy. They would not come alongside at a few miles distance and lob shells at eachother anymore - even if equipped with cannons of some kind. They would fire cruise missiles from many miles away, and hopefully counter any opposing missiles with point defense guns or interceptor missiles. That is what I meant when I said we don't use cannons for ship vs ship combat these days.

      If you instead mean do we fire smaller caliber cannons at fast, tiny boats from pirates or terrorists - then yes, we absolutely still do use guns for that... but it is hardly real ship to ship naval combat at that point. The rail guns we have been testing for years, and which the article talks about, bring back the option of direct capital ship vs capital ship combat (at extreme ranges, too) as well as countering incoming missiles and bombarding shore positions.

      --
      William George
    21. Re:"Low Cost" by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Around WWII, the greatest distance a battleship ever hit another ship was about 15 statute (normal) miles away. The guns could fire much further, in particular the Japanese went for long range, but hitting another ship with a minute's shell flight proved difficult.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  7. More Testing to Come! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I hear they're going to be testing this on the Fox Archipelago off the coast of Alaska. I hope everything works out and that this doesn't have any nuclear proliferation implications at all.

    1. Re:More Testing to Come! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      METAL GEAR!

  8. SWATH, not Catamaran by n1ywb · · Score: 4, Informative

    It's a "Small-waterplane-area twin hull" or SWATH, not a catamaran. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...

    --
    -73, de n1ywb
    www.n1ywb.com
    1. Re:SWATH, not Catamaran by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 2

      Potato, potahto.

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    2. Re:SWATH, not Catamaran by Solandri · · Score: 2

      Hydrodynamically, they are completely different. A catamaran's hulls displace water at the surface (and below). Its drag consists of both friction and waves generated by that displacement. A SWATH gets buoyancy from completely submerged hulls and minimal distortion of the surface. In the ideal case (hulls are sufficiently submerged), its drag consists entirely of friction.

      Normally a SWATH design is used on slow-moving ships where stability is paramount (having the buoyancy underwater means your ship does not rock in waves). At low speeds, it takes more power to move a SWATH than a same-size catamaran because it has greater friction drag - a semicircle can enclose the same area as a circle but using less circumference. But because of the near-elimination of wave drag, it should perform better at intermediate speeds. e.g. Submarines are not able to travel as fast on the surface as they can underwater due to wave drag. (At extremely high speed, wave drag tends to decrease because the frequency of your disturbance no longer matches the frequency of waves, so the hull becomes "less efficient" at generating waves.)

    3. Re:SWATH, not Catamaran by chasm22 · · Score: 1

      Thanks Larry E.

  9. Incom.... by TFlan91 · · Score: 2

    "They are firing, sir!"
    "Prepare the counte...."

    Seriously... 100 mile range? At 5000mph? That range doesn't add up to me, but regardless, whoever is on the receiving end of this bad boy doesn't stand a chance to defend themselves

    1. Re:Incom.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, that's 83.333 miles a minute.. so it'd take about 1.2 minutes to go 100 miles.

      Why doesn't the range add up?

    2. Re:Incom.... by Talderas · · Score: 1

      The big guns on the Iowa were about a 25 mile range and were fired at just over 2,000mph. The projectile weighed between 1,900 and 2,700 pounds (compared to the 23 in the railgun).

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    3. Re:Incom.... by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Air resistance is a bitch at mach speeds, I doubt that round is going anywhere close to 5000mph after going through 100 miles of air.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    4. Re:Incom.... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      The big guns on the Iowa were also big bore. These are more aerodynamic, allowing longer glide.

    5. Re:Incom.... by nojayuk · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Smaller diameter projectiles have more drag per unit mass and slow down faster due to air resistance. It's called their ballistic coefficient.

      The practice for howitzer-like weapons like railguns is to fire their projectiles in a high arc to get them out of thick atmosphere as fast as possible to reduce air friction. They still won't hit their target at anything like their muzzle velocity even after they recover some kinetic energy on the way back down to target from the top of their parabolic arc.

      The ballistically efficient shells from the late-model 15" US Naval rifles had a muzzle velocity of about 3500 feet/second and a flight time to target at maximum range (25 miles or so) of a couple of minutes. Their velocity at impact was half that of their muzzle velocity. I don't see these railgun projectiles achieving anything like that performance as drag increases roughly as the square of velocity and their ballistic coefficient will be a lot less.

    6. Re:Incom.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess the difference to traditional shells is that these don't have their shape constrained by the need to contain explosives.
      The projectiles shown in the video seem to be a lot slimmer and more streamlined than regular shells, at least to my untrained eyes.

    7. Re:Incom.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The projectiles shown in the video seem to be a lot slimmer and more streamlined than regular shells, at least to my untrained eyes.

      Remember this is a prototype.

      The goal (I assume) is to be able to shoot a variety of projectiles including explosive shells and "smart" bombs.

      The next step will be to install one on a ship and work out any operational issues.

      After that, bigger ships and bigger railguns.

    8. Re:Incom.... by nojayuk · · Score: 1

      Ballistic coefficient is dependent on the surface area of the projectile and its mass and a big heavy projectile with the same muzzle velocity as a small light projectile will retain more velocity all the way to the target. A .223 bullet will lose about 200 m/s of its original muzzle velocity over a distance of 300 metres. A similarly-shaped but larger and heavier .50BMG bullet with a similar muzzle velocity will lose about 80 m/s over the same distance, according to Hornady ballistics tables. If you've done any large-calibre shooting you'll know something like a .50BMG will carry a lot further than a .223.

    9. Re:Incom.... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      I understand speed matters more than shape, but there does appear to be aerodynamic considerations for ballistics as well. Spire/Spitzer and a boat-tail seems a common requirement. And the weight can be increased as needed (And as technology allows) with nothing that prevents a weight approaching the 15" guns in a smaller, more aerodynamic shape (of course, to be both smaller and heavier would require special materials.

      Also I note that the usual shape for bullets is not a ball, as they started out, but has evolved to a more aerodynamic shape. I'm sure the guys spending billions working on it have considered it.

    10. Re:Incom.... by nojayuk · · Score: 1

      Modern large-calibre artillery shells usually have base-bleed which coverts them effectively into a full boat-tail configuration in flight by filling in the space at the base of the shell with hot gas. They're actually more efficient than the best rifle bullets in this regard.

      I can't find this information on the web but has anyone actually fired a railgun projectile over the sorts of distances described in the goshwow articles and promotional bumpf designed to get more funding out of Congress? Has there actually been a 100-mile ballistic test of this system yet? 50-mile? 10?

      The movies I've seen of railgun test firings have all been straight-line non-ballistic shots over a few dozen metres demonstrating the sort of armour penetration capabilities DU spears fired by 120mm smoothbores have been able to achieve for decades. I recall reading about folks experimenting with high-velocity wildcat rifles (.30 cal bullets in necked-down .50BMG cases and the like) who ran into problems with solid projectiles melting from air friction at muzzle velocities of only 4000fps (less than Mach 4) over a range of a few hundred metres. It's entirely possible a railgun round would vapourise if fired several kilometres through sea-level air at Mach 7. Not something, of course, a slower seaskimming Tomahawk missile has problems with even though it can fly seven times farther than this railgun can fire, can alter course, is terminally guided and can even carry EW jamming kit.

    11. Re:Incom.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would expect that long range ballistics are pretty well understood at this point and previously tested in different situations (at least the gun in HARP fired projectiles faster than this over long ranges). Unless they find that the railgun works only with oddly shaped projectiles, there isn't much need to do full range testing until maybe final testing of an integrated system. Otherwise, knowing the muzzle velocity and what spread the gun creates should be plenty to nail down how the projectile will perform over the full range.

    12. Re:Incom.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm surprised and a bit disappointed that everyone has failed to notice the rounds fired from the Railgun resemble surface/air or air/air missiles, "FINS BABY!!" They reduce the drag on the projectile and provide better accuracy.. "DUH!!"

    13. Re:Incom.... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      The last time the USN deployed 15" guns was on monitors during the civil war. Do you mean 16"? Muzzle velocity on those was well under 3000 fps. Or do you mean 5"?

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    14. Re:Incom.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Smaller diameter projectiles have more drag per unit mass and slow down faster due to air resistance. It's called their ballistic coefficient.

      The practice for howitzer-like weapons like railguns is to fire their projectiles in a high arc to get them out of thick atmosphere as fast as possible to reduce air friction. They still won't hit their target at anything like their muzzle velocity even after they recover some kinetic energy on the way back down to target from the top of their parabolic arc.

      The ballistically efficient shells from the late-model 15" US Naval rifles had a muzzle velocity of about 3500 feet/second and a flight time to target at maximum range (25 miles or so) of a couple of minutes. Their velocity at impact was half that of their muzzle velocity. I don't see these railgun projectiles achieving anything like that performance as drag increases roughly as the square of velocity and their ballistic coefficient will be a lot less.

      You are assuming that the projectiles are the same shape, i.e., mass to diameter ratio. They are not. You might notice that rifle bullets are longer and narrower than large caliber pistol bullets. See the video of this thing, the projectile is even skinnier than that. Drag will be significant but not as much as that.

      Also, they can not aim it like a Howitzer, it would be a -long- time coming down. It is a direct-fire weapon. I think it would drop faster than the surface of the earth, but not by much...

      (Idiot slashdot thinks I am anonynous! 8-{ )

    15. Re:Incom.... by nojayuk · · Score: 1

      Ballistic coefficient varies with shape too but generally it's dependent on mass and size. A .223 bullet and a .50BMG bullet are similar in shape and muzzle velocity but the .50MBG goes a lot further because it loses speed less quickly than the smaller round. It still can't fly as far as a battleship gun round though even if it's a better shape.

      As for drag, well we have worked examples of clean shapes flying at high speeds. The SR-71 flying at Mach 3 glowed a dull red from skin friction and that was at 80,000 feet where the air pressure is something like 0.5 lbs/square inch or 3% that at sea level. Drag and skin heating effect goes up as the square of the speed so the railgun dart at sea level and Mach 7 would experience something like 4 x 30 or more than a hundred times the amount of drag the SR-71 experienced, and the railgun dart doesn't have engines pushing it along and sustaining its velocity in flight.

      BTW I was wrong about the late-model US battleship guns, the perils of working from memory rather than checking the numbers. Their muzzle velocity was similar to most rifles, about 2700 fps and they were of course 16" bore.

  10. space requirements and fire rate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    After reading the article and seeing the pictures I notice a giant capacitor bank in the background of one of the pictures.

    How much space does the entire setup require and maybe more inportant is how fast can it fire and how much energy is stored in the banks.

    The danger of high explosives maybe offset if you would need a nuclear reactor onboard or if your capacitor bank catches fire or explodes.

    1. Re:space requirements and fire rate by Amtrak · · Score: 1

      Since the navy already runs nuclear reactors on ships I don't think they are that worried about them. However, the capacitor bank exploding could be interesting. I guess they would have to put it somewhere armored on the ship. I would also think that they might have trouble providing cooling for all the electrical equipment as well.

    2. Re:space requirements and fire rate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't need that much "armor" for a capacitor bank, especially if it is well designed. The energy density of the capacitors is a lot less than explosives, and if properly fused and setup, an accident won't dump the entire bank's energy. You end up with a single cap blowing its top off, with the energy stored in its section or less, and usually a mess of metal and oil. A sheet of acrylic can block it in most cases, just it will look ugly afterwards. And I've yet to see one catch fire despite the amount of sparks and smoke it makes, and there are probably design changes that can be made to make it even less likely to catch fire.

    3. Re:space requirements and fire rate by nevermindme · · Score: 1

      Cooling for a Ship weapon...wonder where there is a unlimited supply of 80deg water that has be boiled for cooking/drinking/showers?

    4. Re:space requirements and fire rate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They are cruising around on top of a mighty big heat sink.

    5. Re:space requirements and fire rate by Immerman · · Score: 2

      I doubt the capacitors are actually much of a risk either - after all there's no need to have them charged until right before you fire. It'll only be that brief window when they've got a large charge but haven't yet fired that they'll be dangerous. Unlike missiles, conventional explosives, propellants, and fuel which are all a continuous danger as long as they're on board.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    6. Re:space requirements and fire rate by gurps_npc · · Score: 1

      Cooling generally is not an issue on ships. Nuclear reactors need a better cooling system than the capacitors do.

      --
      excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    7. Re:space requirements and fire rate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In a naval ship, they will need to be thinking about an explosive shell or a missile ( with or without warhead ) penetrating and exploding in the room where the capacitors are. If the capacitors are hit, will they arc to the hull? Will the oil burn? What effects on men and equipment will that have?

    8. Re:space requirements and fire rate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What concern would there be about it arcing to the hull? The hull is essentially ground, so unless there is someone standing there in the arc, not much will happen. Typical oil-film caps use some sort of cheap vegetable or mineral based oils that are pretty inert, but chosen because of cost and performance. There are other options that cost more that can be more resilient and fire resistant. Regardless, your biggest issue with a missile or shell hit that is big enough to damage a large part of the bank is going to be dealing with the shell or missile that was big enough to make a several meter sized explosion through metal and other dense equipment, not the energy in the bank itself.

    9. Re:space requirements and fire rate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The hull is standing in water, will that current bleed thru to the water, and at what rate?
      If there are other electronics ( more sensitive kinds, computers, for example ), will they be affected by large amounts of current being dumped to ground?
      If men are in adjacent ( protected from blast effects ) compartments, will the current affect/kill them?

    10. Re:space requirements and fire rate by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      The danger of high explosives maybe offset if you would need a nuclear reactor onboard

      There are few organizations that have more experience with, and a better operating record of nuclear power than the United States Navy.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    11. Re:space requirements and fire rate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Think of where that current is going to go. It doesn't make sense to just have current "bleed thru", it is going to complete the circuit from one terminal of the cap to the other. If a cap experiences mechanical damage, that circuit is completed within the cap, and no current leaves (but a mess of heated oil tends to...). If the current finds another path, it won't go all over the ship, it will go a short distance back to another part of the bank. The resistance (both DC and AC) of a large metallic structure is so low you won't be getting high voltages across random parts of metal, especially if there is an arc with a much higher resistance acting like a voltage divider. These things are quite dangerous, but in a way that is rather easy to contain and only dangerous to those that go into that area.

    12. Re:space requirements and fire rate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My mental model is that a capacitor stores charge within itself.
      I am having a hard time with the concept that it would just disappear in the capacitor if the capacitor were mechanically damaged while being in a charged state.
      I really dont see how the circuit would simply be completed within the capacitor.

    13. Re:space requirements and fire rate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A bunch of positive charges are on one plate, and a bunch of negative charges are on the other plate. A common geometry for many types of capacitors is to have the plates rolled up in a big coil of plate-dieletecti-plate-dielectric. This maximizes the surface area within a particular volume when using a film or oil soaked dielectric for high voltage capacitors. Any sort of conducting path between the two different plates, whether a large circuit on the outside, or a wrench across the terminals, or a hole in the insulating dielectric will give a path for the positive and negative charges to recombine.

      The total charge within a capacitor is pretty much zero, and it can't hold a net charge any more than any other similar sized object. If you just have a floating capacitor with no connections to ground, the minifridge sized capacitors will hold less charge with respect to ground than a person would, e.g. from static electricity. You can connect either the negative or positive terminal to ground if you want its internal capacitance to be referenced to ground, then any connection of the other terminal to ground will give a discharge path, but that just amounts to a circuit from one plate to the other again. But there is nothing special between the capacitor and ground without connecting one of the terminals to ground, and you can even change the connections while they are charged without any sort of discharged, which is used in some high voltage setups where they are all in parallel for charging, the connected in groups in series to get higher voltage.

      Ultimately, in a system that is designed to prevent overcurrent conditions, the primary failure mode will be internal damage to the dielectric (which can be delayed quite a bit by self-healing dielectrics that use chemistry to become insulating with heated or have current flow through them). Worse but less common is an internal connection failure to one of the terminals, so it will look dead and uncharged, until handling of the capacitor when removing it from the bank causes the broken connection to reconnect and allowing it to discharge through someone touching the terminals (one of a couple reasons unused caps have a wire wrapped around both terminals shorting them together)..

    14. Re:space requirements and fire rate by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That makes sense, thank you for the explanation.

  11. EVE Online by war4peace · · Score: 2

    That's not even a 75mm railgun size. Can I fit it on my Velator? :)

    --
    ...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
    1. Re:EVE Online by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can sell you some Minmatar. That'll solve your problem; they tell me (in between shots of Vitoc) that enough duct tape makes anything fit.

    2. Re:EVE Online by osu-neko · · Score: 1

      Maybe... but Gallente ships prefer with melee-range weapons. :p

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
  12. How often can they fire? by aliquis · · Score: 1

    As in can it shot down missiles or not? And if so which ones?

    1. Re:How often can they fire? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Looks hand loaded, so ICBMs maybe. Honestly, the Navy's laser tech is better for defense or will be. Otherwise, they would need to focus on scaling it down. Don't need a mortar when an aimed high velocity slug(s) would do better at taking down a missile.

      With all these new technologies coming to the military, I wonder if and when a break through in generators will occur.

    2. Re:How often can they fire? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They use lasers to shoot down missiles.

  13. "debut?" by Tyrannicsupremacy · · Score: 0

    Haven't they been showing this thing off for a few years now? The shipboard trials aren't even due for another two years. That's not really much of a debut at all now is it?

    --
    http://i.cubeupload.com/T6cyLu.png
  14. HOT HOT HOT! by TiggertheMad · · Score: 2

    Just speculation but, when you propel something to mach 7, friction becomes a real issue. The SR-71 had a titanium body if I recall correctly, to help deal with temperatures it encountered at Mach 3. It is quite possible that the projectile is very hot and is igniting materials that have lower ignition temperatures.

    --

    HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
    1. Re:HOT HOT HOT! by Immerman · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I suspect it's compression rather than friction doing most of the heating. Much like an orbital reentry vehicle - the gas within the shockwave starts to glow long before it contacts the vehicle itself.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    2. Re:HOT HOT HOT! by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      Apparently it also leaked fuel when it was cold, because to account for the expansion at the high temperatures experienced in flight everything had to be loose fitting.

    3. Re:HOT HOT HOT! by Jarik+C-Bol · · Score: 1

      I suspect it is essentially acting like a giant fire piston. https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]. Of course, because its so small and moving so slow, the piston has a closed end, but with the railgun, the projectile is moving so quickly that it can simply compress the air ahead of it in the barrel against the other air in the barrel fast enough to cause it to ignite.

      --
      I've decided to Diversify my Holdings. I've divided my cash between my left and right pockets, instead of all in one.
    4. Re:HOT HOT HOT! by davewoods · · Score: 1

      The fuel leaking has nothing to do with the heat/fire/light around it.

  15. Almost lunar escape velocity... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    2.38 km/s or 5324 mph. In vacuum and lunar gravity, this probably do it. Put it on the moon, solar power it, change out the shell with buckets with high-g transponders and Gerald O'Neil's vision of a mass driver to throw moon stuff to build a L5 colony is a reality! IMHO, it's much higher priority that any mission to Mars. Or restarting the fracking Cold War.

    1. Re:Almost lunar escape velocity... by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      For lunar launch applications, a much better option would probably be a long open rail. You're not size-limited.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    2. Re:Almost lunar escape velocity... by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      I'm guessing it takes a shload more energy to accelerate something of useful size to lunar escape velocity than a 26 pound chunk of dense metal specifically formed to be shot at Mach 7.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
  16. Finally.... by PortHaven · · Score: 1

    We can take on kaiju...

    1. Re:Finally.... by ketomax · · Score: 1

      We can take on kaiju...

      Category 1 only

    2. Re:Finally.... by davewoods · · Score: 1

      This was really my only thought after reading through all of these comments. It appears to be of little use due to the impracticality of it. But it would very quickly take down a kaiju, godzilla, aliens, etc...

  17. Finally by bitt3n · · Score: 5, Funny

    At last the US Navy, for so long the joke of the high seas, will become a force to be reckoned with.

    1. Re:Finally by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      At last, the US Navy, for so long the consumer of more tax dollars than NASA by some crazy high multiple, can be just as effective, but with a lower economic burden.

    2. Re:Finally by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You laugh, but Vietnam would have been a different story, if we had these when facing off to the battleships of the fierce Viet Cong Navy.
       

    3. Re:Finally by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At last the US Navy, for so long the joke of the high seas, will become a force to be reckoned with.

      Yeah; they'll be flinging these things faster than the average African swallow, that's for sure.

  18. Aiming and targeting? by mveloso · · Score: 1

    With these sort of weapons, how does the navy effectively target something? It's ridiculous to think the Navy would be targeting say, a truck. Would they just stay offshore and throw these at a building or something?

    1. Re:Aiming and targeting? by alexander_686 · · Score: 1

      IIRC, the shells will have a guidance system that will allow them to be guided, which is something that they will need if they plan on hitting a moving target – it does take over a minute for the shell to travel 100+ miles – the target will not be in the place where it was when the shell was launched.

    2. Re:Aiming and targeting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well considering the M1 Abrams tank can have an accuracy of roughly 35 yards spread at it's 8000 yard range, while moving over rough terrain, even directly scaling that up would indicate this railgun should have a one-mile radius accuracy at it's 200-mile range.

      While that sounds awfully low, realize this is assuming it's only as good at the stabilization and auto-targetting systems the Abrams tank has. This would be on a dedicated naval vessel, and be more accurate as a result, and that's before you consider such things as spotters helping the targeting team adjust between shots.

    3. Re:Aiming and targeting? by AxeTheMax · · Score: 1

      They'll target them the same way the USAF targeted the Vietcong with B52 bombers. Fire them in the general direction of the other side, and hope some hit their targets. Doesn't really matter if they hit lots of civilians instead, there's a well established formula to get away with it - have some evidence (or even just claims) that in the right conditions it might catch some combatants.

    4. Re:Aiming and targeting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      imagine it's WW2 and you are about to come ashore at Normandy with modern tech. you identify all the bunkers and other defenses including the artillery that was miles away from the beach. you fire cruise missiles and the rail guns and wipe out the defenses and your soldiers walk onto the beach without a shot being fired. say the missiles at the major bunkers and fortifications and the rail guns at the artillery since you only need a shell per gun

      or you identify the major strong points inland and kill them off before the airborne guys jump in to mop up the remains

    5. Re:Aiming and targeting? by JoeMerchant · · Score: 2

      Depends, is the target a bridge or a building?

      Striking moving targets from 100 mile range is ballsy, even for the Navy.

    6. Re:Aiming and targeting? by silas_moeckel · · Score: 1

      They have much much bigger ballistic weapons to shore bombardment, they throw several ton's a pretty good distance. On the other hand trowing something where you expect something to be when it gets there is doable. If it can make slight course corrections even better. They do not talk about cyclic rates but they do say as a replacement for missiles. So you talking about other navel vessels so under 60 mph without any warning.

      --
      No sir I dont like it.
    7. Re:Aiming and targeting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They could use streams like the anti-missile systems on the ship. You don't waste time trying to take into account wind speed and waves and calculate the precise angle needed to hit the missile, instead you continually shoot in the general direction and adjust your gun until the bullets intercept.

      For the railgun they'll probably fire a shot or two to double check they're near target, then continuous fire adjusting the angles until the bullets hit their mark. You don't care what the wind speed is on the way to the target, you just care where the bullets land.

    8. Re:Aiming and targeting? by niftymitch · · Score: 1

      IIRC, the shells will have a guidance system that will allow them to be guided, which is something that they will need if they plan on hitting a moving target – it does take over a minute for the shell to travel 100+ miles – the target will not be in the place where it was when the shell was launched.

      And the earth rotates too. Long range gunnery is hard.

      --
      Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
    9. Re:Aiming and targeting? by dcw3 · · Score: 2

      Depends. How far can your target move in that time. Likely, less than a mile, and since ships don't turn on a dime, they're highly likely to be proceeding on a vector over the coarse of the projectile's flight. So, just like duck hunting, you aim in front of them appropriately, only with computers doing the math for you.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    10. Re:Aiming and targeting? by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      Really? Care to name a time since Vietnam when USAF has done that?

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    11. Re:Aiming and targeting? by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      Luckily the shell rotates together with the planet. Although I can't imagine that that makes it easy.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
    12. Re:Aiming and targeting? by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      Runways capable of launching military and logistics aircraft don't move that much, and I imagine one of these would crater a runway pretty nicely.

      Bridges don't move very much either. Nor radar sites.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    13. Re:Aiming and targeting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Navy has been hitting moving targets at a distance, using computer controls, for over 50 years. They know how to do it.

      And don't tell me they didn't have computers then, I have seen the equipment up close. True, it didn't have any microchips in it, but that is beside the point. Ever heard of synchronous motors? 8-)

      But Jeeze, did it have a lot of gears and cams! It was a bear to work on...

    14. Re:Aiming and targeting? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rather like clay target shooting, then. The clay is never where it was when you shot it, when the shot pattern reaches the target

  19. Holy shit by EmagGeek · · Score: 1

    23lb = 10.43kg
    5000mph = 2235m/s

    1/2 * m * v^2 > 26 MJ

    Put into perspective, 26MJ / 3600s ~= 7.2kWh, or about $1 worth of electricity.

    How much does 100lbs of black powder cost? (or however much they use to launch shells from battleships?)

    I see a huge cost saving for the military depending on how many shells they fire every year in training.

    1. Re:Holy shit by Whorhay · · Score: 2

      I likely takes a lot more electricity than that because the rail gun isn't going to be very energy efficient. I think I saw a large bank of capacitors in the background of the indoor photo. You wouldn't need such large capacitors, or so many of them, if it was only using 7.2kWh. Also the railgun is also firing a sabot of some sort that contains the 23 pound projectile. Regardless the article already pointed out that it is far cheaper to shoot than the chemically propelled shells. What I really want to see though is impact testing, I want to see things disintegrating explosively as a result of being hit by this thing.

    2. Re:Holy shit by garyebickford · · Score: 1

      There's some video of one of these penetrating a 12 inch thick armor plate. IIRC it was still supersonic coming out the back side.

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    3. Re:Holy shit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's declassified video from a Minuteman-III test fired from Vandenburg where the RV was a tungsten practice warhead on Youtube. I can't find it right now because the FaceTubes are proxy-blocked at work, but the amount of stuff flying about when hit with a couple hundred pounds of tungsten coming back to earth at 9000mph is pretty amazing.

    4. Re:Holy shit by elementai · · Score: 1

      Even if it has tremendous armor piercing qualities, you still have to hit something important with it then. In order words it has to transfer all it's energy to the target.

  20. Accuracy and moving targets by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    this thing sounds quite bad for anybody that might live near to a target.

    How accurate is this thing at max range (100 sea miles) since its just a dumb fire projectile?

    If we look at other long range weaponry I would assume it is a lot less accurate then current missile technology since it would not be able to adjust its trajectory mid flight.

    1. Re:Accuracy and moving targets by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      this thing sounds quite bad for anybody that might live near to a target.

      How accurate is this thing at max range (100 sea miles) since its just a dumb fire projectile?

      If we look at other long range weaponry I would assume it is a lot less accurate then current missile technology since it would not be able to adjust its trajectory mid flight.

      That might be part of the reason for the range. It is not meant to replace ICBMs or drone targeted strikes. It is merely a mortar that is good at breaking through armor. Not a bunker buster, but I'm sure that once the technology is proven, they can implement some other features such as flak and explosives. The technology is mostly about cheap launching not doing the most damage.

    2. Re:Accuracy and moving targets by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      More accurate than an artillery shell, since it's moving faster and less effected by wind direction.

    3. Re:Accuracy and moving targets by Jarik+C-Bol · · Score: 1

      The fun part of these is because they travel so fast, when they finally hit something strong enough, they convert all their kinetic energy into thermal energy via compression, and then explode into a white hot mass of flying molten metal that looks pretty much like an explosion. Its pretty much the next best thing to having a kinetic bombardment satellite.

      --
      I've decided to Diversify my Holdings. I've divided my cash between my left and right pockets, instead of all in one.
    4. Re:Accuracy and moving targets by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      this thing sounds quite bad for anybody that might live near to a target.

      How accurate is this thing at max range (100 sea miles) since its just a dumb fire projectile?

      If we look at other long range weaponry I would assume it is a lot less accurate then current missile technology since it would not be able to adjust its trajectory mid flight.

      I'd say it's pretty accurate; at those speeds, you don't have to worry about shifting wind, something getting in the way, etc. They just don't spend enough time in the air for that to be an issue. There's not time for drift, let alone time to get a fixed coordinate and adjust trajectory.

  21. Mach 7? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 5, Funny

    Well, judging form the pictures, this is the one disposable razor I wouldn't want to be shaved with.

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
    1. Re:Mach 7? by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      Well you do need to use shaving cream if you want to avoid razor burn.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    2. Re:Mach 7? by nitehawk214 · · Score: 3, Funny

      In Soviet Russia, mach 7 razor disposes of YOU.

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    3. Re:Mach 7? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      well now we know how they handled the problem of the rail gun burning out from a single shot....

  22. Is the propulsion truely just magnetic? by AdamHarrison · · Score: 1

    The the projectile leaves the barrel, it is with a fiery explosion behind it. If this is from a rail gun, shouldn't the projectile be push purely by magnetic force, and there be no flames from the barrel?

    1. Re:Is the propulsion truely just magnetic? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When you compress air enough it will ignite. The air left in the barrel when the projectile starts moving forward gets compressed so quickly that it gets super heated and ignites.

      The explosion on impact is similar, there aren't any explosives in the round, it's purely kinetic energy being expended very quickly.

    2. Re:Is the propulsion truely just magnetic? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Accelerating things to mach 7 causes a hell of a lot of friction. A hell of a lot of friction causes a hell of a lot of heat. A hell of a lot of heat causes gases to superheat and turn into plasma. "Fire" is superheated gas in a plasma state.

  23. Both GA and BAE Railguns will be Tested by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    Not to nitpick (well.....yah, I'm nitpicking), but both General Atomics and BAE Systems Railguns will be tested on the USNS Millinocket. BAE Systems actually got the Phase II contract, whereas General Atomics did not.

    Link: http://breakingdefense.com/2014/04/navys-magnetic-super-gun-to-make-mach-7-shots-at-sea-in-2016-adm-greenert/

    Full Disclosure: I nearly got to work on the GA RailGun system and I know some people who are on it. It's a better design than the BAE one but BAE got the contract.

    1. Re:Both GA and BAE Railguns will be Tested by Gogo0 · · Score: 1

      three possibilities:
      1. the BAE one costs more and we have cash to burn before the FY ends
      2. the BAE one costs less and we didnt burn enough cash last FY
      3. BAE has its hooks in the DoD (at least we know this one is true)

  24. Intercontinental ballistic railgun emplacements by mdsolar · · Score: 1

    Intercontinental ballistic railgun emplacements may end up replacing nuclear ICBMs since a patterned barrage may be more effective, particularly for excavating bunkers to decapitate command and control. The ground penetration problem may soon be licked and the Iranian nuclear threat can be settled through negotiations from a position of strength. Nice work Dalgren!

    1. Re:Intercontinental ballistic railgun emplacements by Talderas · · Score: 1

      The range would need to be significantly upgraded to support intercontinental for America.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    2. Re:Intercontinental ballistic railgun emplacements by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Wait a minute. Wouldn't an "intercontinental railgun" (with inert kinetic projectiles, I assume?) face the same problem the "rods from god" would? They wouldn't even have nearly that much weight, further exacerbating the real-world utility problem.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    3. Re:Intercontinental ballistic railgun emplacements by mdsolar · · Score: 1

      I think that is where the barrage helps. My guess is that a under a thousand rounds of these hitting in the same place could give you Barringer Crater. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M... A spaced based system probably could not deliver in that way since you'd probably use rockets to get the mass to orbit instead of this more efficient method.

    4. Re:Intercontinental ballistic railgun emplacements by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Metal Gear?!

    5. Re:Intercontinental ballistic railgun emplacements by rts008 · · Score: 1

      I have wondered that same thing from the beginning.

      I was thinking they would only be used more along 'line of sight' ranges.

      "Line of sight' very loosely defined here! It would still have high velocity at ranges that are occluded by the 'over the horizon' ranges.
      Maybe more accurate to call it 'follows Earth's Curvature', or something.

      It would be useful info to know what the projectile's velocity is at the stated 100 mile range, to enable calculations for remaing energy.

      I know from long range target shooting that projectiles slow down fast.
      ex:
      a .308 Winchester firing a 150 grain bullet at 2750 feet per second will be travelling less than 1000 fps after only 1000 yards, and remaing energy is far less than at muzzle velocity.
      With a 100 yard 'sight in', that same bullet is striking the target about 10 feet below point of aim at around that 1000 yards, and a 10 mile per hour crosswind will deflect it around 2 feet, IIRC.(fuzzy on that memory)

      --
      Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
    6. Re:Intercontinental ballistic railgun emplacements by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      Probably would work better if the emplacements were on the Moon.

    7. Re:Intercontinental ballistic railgun emplacements by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      That .308 bullet, however, doesn't have a ballistic coefficient anywhere near the one that a sub-caliber cannon projectile has.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    8. Re:Intercontinental ballistic railgun emplacements by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      Nah, the terrorist would attack during a new moon.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
  25. Another railgun proposal... by floobedy · · Score: 1

    I recall a proposal (at this point very hypothetical) to have a huge railgun arranged in a loop, which would be situated somewhere in the continental US. The projectile would go around and around in the railgun loop, accelerating each time, like a slingshot, until it's flung out toward the target. The projectiles would go so fast that they'd fly out into orbit before coming back down. This would allow us to "shell" any country on earth from some railgun in the US. The "shells" in this case would have so much kinetic energy that they'd level a city block from the shock wave they'd create upon landing.

    WHY DON'T WE HAVE THIS ALREADY? It's the ultimate homeland defense.

    1. Re:Another railgun proposal... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's the ultimate offense as well.

      At those speeds you could hit just about anything on the planet really really quickly. We're getting closer to Metal Gear Rex.

    2. Re:Another railgun proposal... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A huge railgun in a loop would present enemies with an ideal target. They could disable our offensive capability almost effortlessly. That's why we have nuclear submarines that are constantly on the move. If the enemy doesn't know where your weapons are then he can't possibly disable them all, and retaliation remains a threat even after a surprise attack.

    3. Re:Another railgun proposal... by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      I'm guessing because from the sounds of it, it would probably require the entire energy generation output of the state of Arizona to fire it...and probably wear out after about 5 shots.

      Assuming the physics involved even work at all.

      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
    4. Re:Another railgun proposal... by Whorhay · · Score: 2

      I think the big problem with something like that would be two fold. It would have to be mammoth in size, not just huge. That is becausethe impactor would have to receive all of it's velocity before release, instead of like an ICBM that throttles up once it is in the much thinner upper atmosphere. Missiles don't throttle up until they are at significant altitude because the forces of friction would destroy them at lower altitudes. A rail gun munition would have to be big enough that it could have an effective amount of mass left after literally burning it's way through the lower atmosphere.

      The other problem is how do you aim such a thing? Your loop is already going to be absurdly large so that you can gradually alter the path of the projectile to keep it going in a circle. Any point at which there is a relatively sudden change in direction is going to have to be massively reinforced and I really don't even know how you'd achieve altering the projectiles direction at these speeds without it just ripping through the sidewalls. The rail gun in the article shoots at around 5000mph, which comes out to a relatively puny 1.38 miles per second. Ballistic missles need to be going about 2.5 mi/s when they are at low earth orbit altitudes on the way up, so it'll need to be going faster than that when it leaves the launch facility. Can you imagine what it would take to change the course of what would probably have to be a multi ton projectile hurtling through a tube at speeds significantly above 2.5 mi/s? We'd probably need a "barrel" many miles long.

      What might be more possible would be a launch facility with several independant guns which can shoot in say 8 differing directions. Then use a projectile that is capable of guiding it's own course, probably using solid fuels, once it has been launched.

    5. Re:Another railgun proposal... by gurps_npc · · Score: 1
      Let me get this straight. You think we should build a railgun loop so powerful it can fling objects into orbit.

      Such a thing has been called a space fountain. Google it.

      But after building this incredible device designed to deliver small cargo to outer space, you want to use it as a weapon, as opposed to sending men, robots and other supplies to space?

      Man, you need to fix your priorities.

      P.S. Building said space fountain requires more money than the Manhattan Project and the Space Race combined - and is untested.

      We probably will do that - but only after we finish putting rail guns on all of our naval ships.

      --
      excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    6. Re:Another railgun proposal... by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      It's what we're working on instead of the Large Hadron Collider / CERN.

    7. Re:Another railgun proposal... by floobedy · · Score: 1

      I wish I could find the article which described this. If I recall, the railgun was supposed to be enormous and would be miles in diameter.

    8. Re:Another railgun proposal... by Jarik+C-Bol · · Score: 1

      More than one. Underground.

      --
      I've decided to Diversify my Holdings. I've divided my cash between my left and right pockets, instead of all in one.
    9. Re:Another railgun proposal... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Sounds impossible to protect, particularly if the other side has a similar capability and fires first.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  26. Is anything actually burning? by Immerman · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Actually, do we know that there's any burning going on at all? I believe the light from a fire is not directly emitted by the chemical reaction, it's a result of the combustion gasses glowing from the heat. In which case just heating even an inert gas sufficiently will cause it to glow similarly. And the immense high-speed compression from a mach-7 projectile traveling down a confined tube should generate plenty of heat.

    --
    --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    1. Re:Is anything actually burning? by noh8rz10 · · Score: 2

      that's actually a good point. think of a shooting star (meteor). There's no fuel here either, just a red hot rock and red hot air flowing behind it.

    2. Re:Is anything actually burning? by excelsior_gr · · Score: 2

      Yes, an ionized gas glows on its own, just like a neon light. I don't know if this is the case though. The case someone made above about the oxidization of fine metal particles seems plausible, too.

      In the case of a normal fire though, the glow comes from the red-hot soot particles that come from the inefficient combustion of carbon fuel, so it's not the gasses glowing from the heat.

    3. Re:Is anything actually burning? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Meteors have incandescent gases in front of them where they are being compressed and a bunch in the shock spreading out from the front that also has high compression. This is in contrast with what is seen above where the fireball trails behind the sabot, further back than a shock in an area that would have much lower compression.

    4. Re:Is anything actually burning? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pretty much all light is emitted when electrons drop from a higher energy band to a lower energy band. Heat may have put them in that higher band. Chemical reactions can achieve the same by creating new, lower energy bands that didn't exist before. But indeed, a "normal" fire will be a plasma where electrons are unbound and move freely. That plasma will be capturing energy from the reactions and emit photons, so there's no direct relation anymore.

      If I look at the video, at 0:47 you see a shockwave coming out of the barrel just before the "fire". There's no fire around the projectile, so I'm going to agree with the idea of compressed air, with perhaps a bit of lubricants adding to the fire.

    5. Re:Is anything actually burning? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pretty much all light is emitted when electrons drop from a higher energy band to a lower energy band. Heat may have put them in that higher band.

      A lot of the light we see (especially sun light and incandescence) doesn't come from electrons changing energy levels, but from oscillations of charged particles and/or collisions of photons with charged particles. Blackbody radiation will occur without any associated energy levels. When you have transitions of the appropriate energy level, you get a mix of blackbody and line radiation. There are other sources of light, but less common in noticeable ways in day to day life.

      But indeed, a "normal" fire will be a plasma where electrons are unbound and move freely.

      A normal fire is pretty far from a plasma. The temperatures are really low to ionize atoms involved, so you have very few free electrons around, except for in cases where the chemistry tends to create unbalanced products (e.g. hydrocarbons burning produce a fair amount of ions). Even then, the ionization is very low, compared to say an electrical arc which is typically below a couple percent ionization itself.

      There's no fire around the projectile, so I'm going to agree with the idea of compressed air, with perhaps a bit of lubricants adding to the fire.

      The area with the highest compression would be in front of the projectile or sabot, but that is not where the fire is. Directly behind them is an area of low pressure which is where a large part of the flames are.

  27. There must be a money burning contest in the US... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Add up the costs of this, the F35, the NSA, DEA and all the other nonsense and I wager the US could have had an automated industry and military to rival China's and Russia's combined production capabilities manyfold with surplus money left to spare.

  28. So... by msobkow · · Score: 5, Funny

    So we're back to throwing rocks.

    We just throw them very, very fast. :)

    --
    I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
    1. Re:So... by smartr · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I found it interesting to describe by calculating kinetic energy. A stabbing ~ 185 joules. A gunshot of 45 caliber ACP round ~ 702 joules. A 1 ton vehicle going 100mph ~ 1 megajoule. A giant truck about to hit a series of tubes ~ 30 Megajoules. The kinetic energy of this railgun as it leaves the muzzle ~ 30.9 Megajoules.

    2. Re:So... by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      What's the kinetic energy after 1 minute of ballistic flight?

    3. Re:So... by nitehawk214 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And better.. (or worse, if you are the target)... all 30MJ is hitting you in a spot about 10cm in diameter.

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    4. Re:So... by Overzeetop · · Score: 2

      1/2mV.terminall^2 since 83 miles away we presume it will be on the downslope of a parabolic-ish arc. 23lb at 300mph - 10kg at 136m/s = 10 x 136^2 = 185kJ give or take. So about the same as a Toyota Yaris going 40mph or a Ford Focus going 35mph.

      I presume the 100 mile targets will have to be soft. People are quite soft, as are unarmored vehicles.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    5. Re:So... by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      A Toyota Yaris with a 3" solid steel rod welded to the engine block will hurt quite a bit at 40mph, even if it is reinforced concrete. Now, repeat ram the wall 40 times...

    6. Re:So... by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      No doubt, but it won't do much more than dent anything that has been hardened against HE (or even large LE) munitions.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    7. Re:So... by geoskd · · Score: 1

      1/2mV.terminall^2 since 83 miles away we presume it will be on the downslope of a parabolic-ish arc. 23lb at 300mph - 10kg at 136m/s = 10 x 136^2 = 185kJ give or take. So about the same as a Toyota Yaris going 40mph or a Ford Focus going 35mph.

      These things will be going much much faster than terminal velocity, even 100 miles downrange. They simply will not have enough time to slow down. The shuttle on re-entry came in basically belly-into-the-wind to bleed of energy as fast as it could, and it still took a half hour and 6,000 miles to bleed off all that energy.

      This shot is designed to be stremlined, and will not bleed very much energy at all. I wouldn't be surprised if its still moving mach 6 when it gets to its target... Try redoing your calculations for 4,000 MPH, and see what you get.

      --
      I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
    8. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      FYI, I'm not sure how you came up with your velocity. Yes, air resistance will make it so that the velocity at the end of the parabolic trajectory is not identical to at the beginning. However, I suspect you overestimated the effect on a very dense aerodynamic projectile to come up with only 300mph. (IAAME -- I am a mechanical engineer)

    9. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where does your figure of 300mph come from? This is a solid, pointy metal projectile. If you dropped it from altitude with zero initial velocity it might be going 300mph by the time it hits the ground but more likely, it'll slow down to mach ~6 on its way out of the atmosphere and to mach ~5 on the way in but that's about it.

    10. Re:So... by bughunter · · Score: 1

      Next up: flinging poo at mach 25.

      --
      I can see the fnords!
    11. Re:So... by mdsolar · · Score: 1

      So... inside baseball....

    12. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not sure if mach 25 poo would incinerate from the friction first or disperse into microscopic aerosol of pathogens and yuck.

    13. Re:So... by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      That's why we still have the cruise missiles, but it's a shame to waste them on adobe huts...

    14. Re:So... by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      That squared in "speed squared" is much of the fun.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
    15. Re:So... by Immerman · · Score: 1

      The shuttle is also going *much* faster, so the kinetic energy is far higher.
      Low Earth Orbit velocity: 27,400 km/h = 29MJ/kg
      mach 7: 8,575 km/h = 2.9 MJ/kg

      So basically the shuttle needs to shed 10x as much energy per kg as the projectile. Of course air resistance scales with the square of velocity along with the kinetic energy, so it's not a simple comparison to make. Especially when you consider that the shuttle is shedding most of it's energy at high altitude, where it's practically in vacuum compared to ground-level air resistance.

      But yeah, I doubt the projectile's slowed to anywhere near terminal velocity "at range", after all the range of a weapon tends to be listed as the distance at which it can reliably hit a target and do serious damage. Compared to what this thing could do on the firing range I doubt it's terminal velocity damage could make the cut as "serious damage"

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    16. Re:So... by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Where are you getting 300mph as the terminal velocity? And what does terminal velocity have to do with horizontal motion anyway? It's strictly a relevant concept to objects falling in a gravitational field (or subjected to some other constant force fighting friction). Unless you fired this thing straight up it's not going to be much of a factor. And frankly if you *did* fire this thing straight up, well I doubt it'd spend enough time in thick air to slow to anywhere near its TV.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    17. Re:So... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      It'll lose speed fast.

      Another issue is that, depending on what it's hitting, it may not do a good job of transferring its energy to the target. Off Samar in 1944, Japanese battleships fired armor-piercing shells at US destroyers. A 14" hole through a ship isn't good, but it could be a lot worse.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    18. Re:So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      a toyota yaris going 40 mph can wreck a building going that fast if it hit something structural. now put that energy into a solid hunk of steel 10 centimeters in diameter. it will cut through armor like a hot knife through butter.

      think of it like an elephant in high heels.

  29. Read this post in the Q3A announcer voice by gman003 · · Score: 1

    IMPRESSIVE

    1. Re:Read this post in the Q3A announcer voice by Iniamyen · · Score: 2

      QUAD DAMAGE

  30. Difficult to defend against by floobedy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Perhaps one of the big benefits of a naval railgun is that it's so difficult to defend against. Old-fashioned anti-ship missiles can be disabled or destroyed by the defending ship's close-in defenses. This is because the incoming missile is filled with sensitive electronics, guidance systems, explosives, fuel, turbojet engines, stabilizing fins, etc, and is very likely to be damaged or destroyed if hit by a 20mm round from the defending ship's CIWS missile defenses.

    However, how do you shoot down a hunk of metal traveling at mach 7 toward your ship? It wouldn't make any difference if you hit it with a 20mm round from the goalkeeper or phalanx. The projectile would just keep flying toward the ship and strike it anyways. Besides, how would you even hit something which is so small and traveling at mach 7.

    It doesn't seem there would be any good defense against this.

    1. Re:Difficult to defend against by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The defence is to not have a surface Navy, or to stick to aircraft only

      Which is probably cheaper and more effective anyway

    2. Re:Difficult to defend against by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It doesn't seem there would be any good defense against this.

      Just think of the damage to land targets as well, and still no good defense(well big enough bunkers, that are deep enough. But then you take out the surface defense and send in a bunker buster).

    3. Re:Difficult to defend against by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Goalkeeper uses the GAU-8 Avenger gatling gun, which fires 30mm X 175mm rounds - and it fires 4200 a minute of them. That's a very capable gun, possibly able to divert the trajectory of the Mach 7 flying 10Kg projectile. All I'm saying is, the Goalkeeper may actually be able to protect against this kinetic weapon, especially with the new upgrades the Dutch have been planning since a couple of years ago (basically, vastly improved tracking and guidance).

    4. Re:Difficult to defend against by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know why we'd be firing on anybody that has Goalkeeper or Phalanx.

    5. Re:Difficult to defend against by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Captain America's Shield?

    6. Re:Difficult to defend against by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      lazers

      captcha: melons

    7. Re:Difficult to defend against by sinij · · Score: 1

      Of course there will be some way to defend against this. It might not exist today, but at some point in the future it will be standard-issue equipment.
       
      To speculate, if you could use magnetic fields to accelerate, you can also use magnetic fields to decelerate or redirect. Or you could design ships where March7 projectiles could go through them without inflicting much damage, so it would take 100s of hits from this slow-firing weapon to destroy the target. Or you could use submersion, even couple meters of water will absorb substantial portion of projectile's kinetic energy. Or you could play billiard with another railgun.

    8. Re:Difficult to defend against by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Things tend to break up quite fast in atmosphere at those speed if they get deformed. Probably not in couple of km's that you can get a lead-time on though. Could cause severe veer-off though.

    9. Re:Difficult to defend against by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      not if the metal used in the shell is non-ferrous. only the sabot need me magnetic. the round would not be affected after the launch.

    10. Re:Difficult to defend against by sconeu · · Score: 1

      The problem is that the Germans and the Brazilians always seem to find a way past the goalkeeper.

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    11. Re:Difficult to defend against by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      Now, picture a beowulf cluster of these rail guns firing an anti-aircraft pattern up from the National Mall toward an incoming aircraft....

    12. Re:Difficult to defend against by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Neither part needs to be magnetic, and in fact works better if not. The force is between a magnetic field and a current passed through the sabot. Magnetic material would have smaller skin depth which means more resistance and inductance issues. But you still won't be able to do the exact opposite process that happens in the gun, since that requires a large pulse of current through the projectile+sabot which is rather difficult to do in the gun as is. It would be on par with saying we can stop artillery rounds by catching them in a barrel and decelerating the round with a well timed explosion in the barrel.

    13. Re:Difficult to defend against by PIBM · · Score: 2

      GoalKeeper;

      The system's reaction time to a Mach 2 sea-skimming missile such as the Russian SS-N-22 Sunburn from automatic detection to kill is reported to be 5.5 seconds with the firing synchronized to start the engagement at a range of 1,500 m and ending with a kill at 300 m.[2]

      The SS-N-22 (russian version) has a 2.6 ft diameter, while the railgun `pellet` appear to be a few inches only, thus being much harder to hit. Also, final speed of the railgun pellet should still be much higher than mach 2. And at the range-speed combo they are talking of, the trajectory should be relatively flat. I'd bet against the goalkeeper.

    14. Re:Difficult to defend against by kaiser423 · · Score: 1

      At that speed you don't need to disrupt the flight path much to cause instant unstable flight/burning up. I would think that a Phalanx could still do the trick. The issue being that it's moving fast enough that unless your defensive systems are locked, loaded and engaged you likely don't have time to react. Typically unless you're under active attack you disable them just so you don't end up with the system accidentally blowing something out of the sky and making front page news in a bad way. Though if you have a couple of these coming at you in a salvo, I imagine that you're all but screwed with current defensive systems. But that's the case with lots of "sprinting" missiles anyways that hit the deck and speed up quick just before they hit defensive range. A couple of them can make a day go bad pretty quick too.

    15. Re:Difficult to defend against by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      Thick, large plate on the end of a powerful robot arm. You should have the seconds necessary for a computer to crank it into position. You just need the accuracy in detection.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    16. Re:Difficult to defend against by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmm.. let's see a giant (electro?) magnet or two to change its trajectory?

    17. Re:Difficult to defend against by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Make a tenkan using the whole ship. Let the charged lump of metal go into a funnel to capture part of the energy of the projectile. Turn the ship back and unleash the tsunami generator.

    18. Re:Difficult to defend against by Crypto+Gnome · · Score: 1

      It doesn't seem there would be any good defense against this.

      The only conceptual defence against such a weapon would have to be some kind of force-field.

      Especially when you consider this is a Generation One product.

      Scaling the system up in terms of Projectile Speed, Cycle Times, etc would only be a matter of engineering.

      --
      Visit CryptoGnome in his home.
    19. Re:Difficult to defend against by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you hit it with a laser that could alter its aerodynamic shape far enough away the the atmosphere will take care of it.

    20. Re:Difficult to defend against by Jeremi · · Score: 1

      However, how do you shoot down a hunk of metal traveling at mach 7 toward your ship?

      I think I'd like to use a rail gun to shoot a hunk of metal at it at mach 7. Assuming I don't miss, the result should be a single projectile, twice as large, that drops straight down into the ocean. Right? ;^)

      --


      I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
    21. Re:Difficult to defend against by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shoot first.

    22. Re:Difficult to defend against by cbhacking · · Score: 1

      Clearly, the solution is railgun-based point defense! Sure, it'll have a lower rate of fire than the current CIWS units, but imagine the light show you'd get from the sparks when of a pair of opposing slugs run into each other at a combined mach 12 or so?

      Impractical today, of course, but technology marches on. In the meantime, it isn't actually that hard to deflect the projectile enough... if you can hit it at any meaningful distance. That's going to be quite impractical (just hitting it at all is likely impractical) so for the moment, yeah. Add to that the ability to scale up the gun faster than people can realistically produce defense (my WAG there, but I suspect it's true nonetheless) and offense is taking a lead right now.

      On the other hand, that's been true for a long time in a different way, which also brings me to the best defensive measure I can think of: a few hundred feet of H2O. Phalanx can't hit a torpedo, either...

      --
      There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
    23. Re: Difficult to defend against by joib · · Score: 1
      Old-fashioned anti-ship missiles can be disabled or destroyed by the defending ship's close-in defenses. This is because the incoming missile is filled with sensitive electronics, guidance systems, explosives, fuel, turbojet engines, stabilizing fins, etc, and is very likely to be damaged or destroyed if hit by a 20mm round from the defending ship's CIWS missile defenses.

      FWIW, AFAIU the old gun-based CIWS things are being replaced by missile systems (RAM) since they don't work against modern supersonic anti-ship missiles, to say nothing about railgun projectiles. Think about it, the gun shoots a projectile traveling at about mach 3, roughly the same as the incoming missile(?). So at the outer end of the range (say, 4 km?) it starts shooting. The shells and the missile pass each other at around 2 km, at which point it starts to become pointless to shoot anymore since even if you hit the damn thing (at 1 km, this time) it will more or less continue on its trajectory due to sheer momentum thanks to traveling at mach 3. Simply not enough time for the control algorithm (Kalman filter, or whatnot) to do its magic.

      So, how to defend against railguns? Well, you get a bigger railgun! :) Or ballistic anti-ship missiles. But yeah, probably quite hard to do anything to the railgun projectiles after they are launched.

    24. Re:Difficult to defend against by mdsolar · · Score: 1

      Seems like a barrage pattern might work pretty well to produce a focused sub crushing wave. It would work like a directional antenna.

    25. Re:Difficult to defend against by twosat · · Score: 1

      Maybe something like Metal Storm? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

    26. Re:Difficult to defend against by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      Decelerating it with a magnetic field isn't feasible. The current in the railgun does 2 things:
      1. It makes a hell of a magnetic field
      2. It runs through the projectile. That current undergoes a Lorentz force due to the magnetic field. The Lorentz force moves the projectile.

      How are you going to induce that current in a projectile that is heading towards you? Without it the magnetic field will not influence the projectile.

      And that is besides the technical challenges in making a magnetic field with enough strength to stop this while enveloping the entire ship.

      I'd upgrade the goalkeeper, but I am Dutch so that was to be expected.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
    27. Re:Difficult to defend against by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      If stuff like forcefields are allowed then you should just give your ship a General Products hull.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
    28. Re:Difficult to defend against by davewoods · · Score: 1

      My favorite choice is this one: You can also use magnetic fields to decelerate or redirect

      Just imagine being able to catch one of these things... "Thanks for all the energy! We really needed it to charge up this high-powered death laser."

  31. And the advantage of this is? by bobbied · · Score: 5, Informative

    Many!

    Imagine if you didn't need to handle explosives like Cordite as propellents anymore. This will reduce storage space and make a battleship's gun turret a while lot safer place to work. One small spark won't set off a magazine anymore.

    "Muzzle velocity" is higher, so the distance you can throw something is a bit further, like 5x further. If you can fire further, you have a huge advantage because you can hit your opponent before he can shoot at you. Or if you are doing ground support, you can fire further inland.

    I'm assuming a rail gun will be faster to reload. Might take some time to recharge the power supply, but surely we can fire faster than a Mark 7's 2 rounds a minute. More pounds and rounds on the target than your opponent is always better.

    Finally, it may be possible to more strictly control forces on the shell when firing it, which may make it possible to put more technology IN the shells, and still get very high velocity. Imagine a shell that can adjust it's flight path, even slightly, which means you can fire in the general direction you want, then fine tune the aim in flight. (I assume they don't do that now..)

    Issues to watch out for: First, Rail guns tend to have tracks (rails) and said rails usually have difficulty with wear due to the huge forces and high speeds involved. Hopefully they have engineered the better materials. Second, power supplies for rail guns have to be designed to provide HUGE impulse powers with power generation systems wanting to be running at steady state. You have to match the two. Finally, weapons like this usually mean you have to redesign the whole weapons system, a process that literally takes decades.

    Go Navy, this is worth the R&D money..

    --
    "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    1. Re:And the advantage of this is? by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      Imagine a shell that can adjust it's flight path, even slightly, which means you can fire in the general direction you want, then fine tune the aim in flight. (I assume they don't do that now..)

      They don't, and even a railgun projectile probably won't either - because the force required to effect a significant change in trajectory (especially in azimuth) is simply too great.

    2. Re:And the advantage of this is? by timeOday · · Score: 1
    3. Re:And the advantage of this is? by charlesj68 · · Score: 1

      Imagine a shell that can adjust it's flight path, even slightly, which means you can fire in the general direction you want, then fine tune the aim in flight. (I assume they don't do that now..)

      They don't, and even a railgun projectile probably won't either - because the force required to effect a significant change in trajectory (especially in azimuth) is simply too great.

      M712 Copperhead

    4. Re:And the advantage of this is? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Imagine a shell that can adjust it's flight path, even slightly, which means you can fire in the general direction you want, then fine tune the aim in flight. (I assume they don't do that now..)

      They don't, and even a railgun projectile probably won't either - because the force required to effect a significant change in trajectory (especially in azimuth) is simply too great.

      Actually, some artillery has GPS and can adjust flightpath: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M982_Excalibur
      I have no idea whether or not this can be implemented on naval guns. I'm guessing someone in the USA got a few hundred million dollars to find out.

    5. Re:And the advantage of this is? by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      In ballistic mode, it only fine tunes the trajectory - you can't simply 'fire it in the general direction' and fix things up later. You already have to be in the basket, which isn't that large. The basket is larger for glide mode, but it's still not "in the general direction".

      (Hint: Quoting from Wikipedia when you don't know jack shit doesn't make you look intelligent when you're replying to someone who does know what he's talking about.)

  32. Baguettes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They make Baguettes in the US also, you know

  33. WTF? by benjfowler · · Score: 1

    Why the hell does an inert slug encased in a discarding sabot cost twenty grand?

    Are the defence contractors taking the piss or what?

    1. Re:WTF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Please drive over to Best Buy and pick up a case (36) of these, ship them to the DOD and include the receipt.

      Not defending the absurd markups in the defense contracting world, but there is a major economy of scale issue here too. They are likely using a specialty alloy run through a one-of-a-kind manufacturing line to produce these things. They're not going to be cheap like tire rims.

    2. Re:WTF? by AK+Marc · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Tolerances causes more cost than you think, and documentation around military contract is generally at least half the cost of anything. It's not the contractors taking the piss (what, are you in OZ or UK?), but the government being stupid in supporting the military industrial complex.

    3. Re:WTF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it's crazy, i mean Foxconn makes millions of these a year at $100 a pop and yet the DoD is paying someone to build a custom factory to produce their rounds

    4. Re:WTF? by Tailhook · · Score: 3, Informative

      Why the hell does an inert slug encased in a discarding sabot cost twenty grand?

      The only way these get cheap is if we have to make a lot of them to fight a war. Be thankful we only have to deal with low-rate peacetime economics where the development costs of unique tooling gets amortized across a small number of prototype rail gun slugs creating a big per-unit price tag that causes fools to go apoplectic.

      --
      Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
    5. Re:WTF? by Russ1642 · · Score: 1

      The payload doesn't cost $25,000. Shooting it does.

    6. Re:WTF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep. This ain't consumer electronics. Like heavy-duty network equipment, when there's low demand the price is very high to cover the R&D.

      Also military industrial complex.

    7. Re:WTF? by Arker · · Score: 1

      "They are likely using a specialty alloy run through a one-of-a-kind manufacturing line to produce these things. They're not going to be cheap like tire rims."

      Not until the Chinese clone it. You can bet their projectiles will be orders of magnitude less expensive, and just slightly less effective.

      --
      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
      Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
    8. Re:WTF? by avandesande · · Score: 2

      Probably includes cost of rail maintenance- most artillery pieces need to be re-barreled at some interval as well.

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
    9. Re:WTF? by confused+one · · Score: 1

      Because each one is a custom, hand-made part that probably went through an extensive measurement process in a QA lab prior to each assembly step and after it was completed.

  34. Reply to Comment? by aliquis · · Score: 0

    Oxygen is most definitely not flammable. Please take a grade-six science class.

    But your comment is!

    (Damn is weird, I wondered what page I was on, if it was some blog post I had ended up in or whatever.) .. no html quote tag in it either? I'll keep it and post this way anyway just to show how stupid it is.

  35. Cant wait for... by danknight48 · · Score: 1

    Instagib gamemode!

  36. No terminal guidance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The cost comparison is true, but for an incoming missile, perhaps not the whole story.

    Think of this as a really bad ass sniper rifle with computer aiming.
    The muzzle velocity and projectile weight are much higher, but the aiming and kinetic kill are the same story.

    Is it reasonable to hit a missile without terminal guidance?
        Probably not unless it's way closer than it ought to be.

    Still, a neat gadget. I sure wouldn't want to be on the interesting end.

         

    1. Re:No terminal guidance by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      Not quite. You can bet on it that they will ahve a smart shell that has fins/electronics so that it can move a couple of degrees around, which would be enough to handle moving targets.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  37. Discarding Sabot by bra1n · · Score: 1

    I see that they are using a discarding sabot to keep from welding the projectile to the rails.

  38. Why the firey explosion? by gurps_npc · · Score: 1

    I don't see why there would be a red explosion at the end of the barrel when the projectile was launched if this was truly a railgun.

    --
    excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    1. Re:Why the firey explosion? by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 2

      Friction with and compression of the air yield heat.

      Enough heat turns air into plasma.

      Plasma has a tendency to glow brightly in the yellow-red range.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
    2. Re:Why the firey explosion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Plasma has a tendency to glow brightly in the yellow-red range.

      Visible light from most plasma is a combination of line radiation and blackbody radiation. The former for sea level air gives a purple to white color typically, while the latter is much weaker in optically thin air. If you throw other junk in there, you can get more blackbody radiation, which can be anywhere from red to orange to white.

    3. Re:Why the firey explosion? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Things get hot at Mach 7. X-15A-2 damage after mach 6.7 flight

  39. Re:There must be a money burning contest in the US by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

    If they were any smart, they'd speed up the development of such things as precision time-fused grenades for hand-held grenade launchers, such as the ones used in the XM25. There's a lot of low-hanging fruit in such humble endeavors.

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
  40. Not quite yet, but getting there. by Animats · · Score: 1

    This is a technololgy that's almost there. Like laser weapons. Big chemical lasers that could shoot down shells or small missiles were built two decades ago, but they were building-sized installations, used huge amounts of hazardous chemicals, and took a long time to cool between shots. A decade ago, the THEL laser system had that down to three semi-trailers, but it still used big tanks of hazardous chemicals. Recently, big arrays of solid-state lasers have been used to shoot down shells and small missiles, and that system fits on a medium sized truck. The current version is only 10KW, and the consensus is that about 50KW to 100KW is needed to be really effective.

  41. Thanks for the explanations! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Much appreciated.

  42. Missed Cost by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A hidden cost of a rail gun is the rails themselves can only be used so many times before they need to be replaced. The material probably can be recycled, but I'm not sure how often they would be changed (at least once every 20 shots) and also not sure how difficult it would be to change them. I would assume some kind of shop crane with the rails switchable like a WW2 machiene gun barrel.

    It also depends on the power generation. Capicators are easier, but more expensive (The real big cost in most rail guns), while compulsed alternators are cheaper but more complex (but not sure it can be used on something this big). So you are spending 100x the costs on the gun itself, but saving a lot on per shot.

    Going by Air Force jet numbers, the operating costs of a figher jet significantly dwarf the original cost of the aircraft. I would think this is the reverse, the original cost of the gun will dwarf the cost of operating it.

    1. Re:Missed Cost by JoeMerchant · · Score: 2

      I'm betting that $25K per shot includes the cost of launcher maintenance.

      Even for military use, 10kg of solid projectile material shouldn't bill out at $25K.

    2. Re:Missed Cost by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The cost probably encloses the energy bill..

  43. Water by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why not use hollow rounds and simply fill them with water? It would reduce the weight they have to carry, reduce the load time, and at that speed or higher, it may be even more effective.

  44. Quibble by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The weapon has a range of 100 miles and doesn't require explosive warheads.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but a railgun projectile may have an explosive warhead, but doesn't require an explosive propellent.

    Granted, throwing a rock at someone at mach 7 even without an explosive warhead can do a lot of damage.

    1. Re:Quibble by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      yup. However, far more likely, is that a smart warhead will be developed so that it can steer a bit around.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  45. Railgun Technology: Japan already beat us to it. by grep+-v+'.*'+* · · Score: 1

    Info here, official visuals here. And look, there's another!

    (That's last bit's a pun -- but believe me, you most likely didn't get it..)

    --
    If the universe is someone's simulation -- does that mean the stars are just stuck pixels?
  46. Great Scott! 1.21 GigaWatts! by gelfling · · Score: 2

    let's see 23lbs @ 7333 fps is about 169,000 ft lbs or about 229,000 joules each second. If the projectile hits the target for about 1/500th of a second that's more or less 1.2 GigaWatts.

  47. Longevity of the guns by ChromaticDragon · · Score: 1

    I'm curious how they've addressed the issues of these sorts of things tearing themselves apart. The article doesn't go into details. One has to assume since the overall price per projective was determine that this was factored into things. And the video seems to show something rather purposely placed there that gets destroyed in the launch process.

    Anyone find further details?

    1. Re:Longevity of the guns by Algae_94 · · Score: 1

      I don't have much to say about the projectiles failing, but what is shown falling away from the projectile in the video is a sabot. It is used to launch projectiles that don't mate perfectly with the barrel.

    2. Re:Longevity of the guns by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      BAE and GA have been working on that. That is why this has taken almost a decade. Hopefully, China does not have the technology because, what you describe is the main problem, which is from heat.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    3. Re:Longevity of the guns by chasm22 · · Score: 1

      Haven't heard much about the General Atomic gun, but the one initially designed by BAE had severe problems. BAE just got another bunch of cash to improve their design. I believe this is really outmoded stuff. Given the state of drone technology and the state of warfare. I just don't see the need. Just what niche does this fit into that already doesn't haven't an adequate weapon system. I'm completely blown away by some of the sentiment I've seen that suggests the lack of explosives is somehow a more humane way of doing business. But what really concerns me when I read the various articles about this weapon system is the total lack of criticism. I guess we can all assume that for the first time in history a defense contractor has delivered a well designed, well tested, weapon system BECAUSE not one freakin article said there were any challenges facing General Atomic. All systems go! Right, let me check back in 5 years and see where this project is at.

  48. Momentum like a collision. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The small ship (a JHSV) they are testing is 1500 ton. The energy in this projectile (energy= 1/2 * mass * velocity squared) is about about 11.5 lb * 25 million sq mph. but the forces must equal. When that railgun fires it's like hitting a bigger ship at 11.5 mph.

    On the other hand, for the brief time the ship is testing the gun, the littl "unarmed" JHSV will in fact be armed with the single most powerful projectile weapon ever mounted on a naval vessel.

  49. Simple explaination... by rts008 · · Score: 1

    The flames/fireball are similar to the the effects of say, a meteor entering Earth's atmoshere at high velocity...no fuel involved.

    No trick here, just super heated air and plasma caused by friction, and maybe some 'fuel' from ablation of sabot and possibly projectile.
    Similar principals enable deisel engines to combust fuel without a spark plug...compression causes friction, friction causes heat, ...

    --
    Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
  50. Equal & opposite... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Generating that must thrust must generate some sizable pushback on the ship.

    Is it enough to be significant?

  51. 100mi range seem optimistic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    at 5000 mph, a 100 mile range means over 1 minute before the projectile will arrive at its intended destination. Seems that makes it useless against a mobile target since you can't predict with much certainty where that target is going to be 1 minute in the future. So either your effective range is much reduced, or it is only viable against stationary targets. Still, I wouldn't want to be one of those stationary targets.

    1. Re:100mi range seem optimistic by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      Keep in mind that while most of these shells are dummies, some of them will be smart shells with the ability to move a bit.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    2. Re:100mi range seem optimistic by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      Being 100 miles away, it is likely difficult for a truck full of [assholes|explosives|fuel|supplies] to know that there is a 10.5kg tungsten lump flying at them. You can't do evasive maneuvers against something you don't know is there.

      Also, bridges, runways, radar installations, and electrical infrastructure don't move a whole lot.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
  52. New Railgun? by Blaskowicz · · Score: 0

    That's ten-year-old news!, reporting is going a bit slow today.
    The railgun's projectile is to have an energy of 64 Megajoules. The DD(X) frigate (or destroyer, I don't know the difference much) was originally a candidate for getting a railgun ; that was canned at some point I think.

    Here's a video with some testing and stuff done in October 2006
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...
    I had not watched it back then, I remember the high res, short one that simply showed the bangs and shot, I don't remember in which year. Sadly the PDF I remember from 2004 with schematic line drawings is offline ( http://www.battelle.org/navy/r... )
    Here's one railgun news article from 2004. http://www.popsci.com/scitech/...

    1. Re:New Railgun? by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      Not really old news. THis is the winner of all that work. Prior to this, BAE and GA were competing to make these, which is not easy. And DDX has been gutted, so now, the focus is on putting railguns on current ships. Personally, I wish that they would make the DDX, but make it nukes so that it can have plenty of power to run motor, lasers and multiple railguns.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    2. Re:New Railgun? by Blaskowicz · · Score: 1

      Thanks! so General Atomics won.

    3. Re:New Railgun? by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      well, I do not understand this. Back in Dec, the DOD announced that BAE won. Now, they are testing GA's system. I have to wonder if BAE is going on to develop something else.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  53. Fuck Alpha by morgauxo · · Score: 1

    I just got a Slashdot Alpha page!!! Worse than the beta, it's Facebook comments!

  54. AE friend told me Challenger didn't "explode" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it pitched up into a supersonic airstream...

    I suspect any potential defense system would have a goal of applying a small perpendicular force to the nose of the projectile & the rest takes care of itself!

    yes, easier said than done but the basic point being destruction of the projectile likely isn't necessary...

  55. Q3A by antdude · · Score: 1

    I was expecting Quake 3 Arena's railgun type. :/

    --
    Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
  56. One ugly ass ship (USNS Millinocket) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    First time I had ever imagined a USN vessel giving Steve Job's iYacht a run for its money in worlds most ugliest ship contest.

    From the side it looks like a trash heap of haphazard aluminum flashing. Rail guns are cool and all provided your not on the business end but this is one fugly cat.

  57. Assault gun by BlazingATrail · · Score: 1

    It looks scary, let's ban it !

    1. Re:Assault gun by geekoid · · Score: 1

      I'm all for banning this from general public usage.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  58. Funny fact about the warthogg and recoil by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The gun used to be off center and actually would turn the plane when it fired.

    1. Re:Funny fact about the warthogg and recoil by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

      That's a myth, look it up. Besides the GAU-8 cannon has always been off center with the firing barrel being at centerline.

  59. Did you fail physics? by rts008 · · Score: 2

    The same reason that space vehicles and meteors burn the atmoshere when they encounter 'air' at high velocities.

    The same thing that destroyed the space shuttle "Columbia"with damaged heat tiles on the wing edge when it re-entered.

    --
    Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
    1. Re:Did you fail physics? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You should be careful who you accuse of failing physics. If it was from the compression of air, the hottest part would be in front of the round and/or sabot, but it is clearly seen to be directly trailing the sabot where the pressure will actually be pretty low. While Mach ~7 travel through air heats up the air and front surface of an object quite a lot, it is not enough to get air to glow and look like a fireball. Most of that requires a large amount of stuff to be in the air to get that bright and dense of a glow. In this case the high current needed to accelerate an object in a rail gun goes through a connection expected to ablate and vaporize, leaving a huge mess of vaporized and clouds of molten metal in the wake of the sabot.

  60. I thought that BAE won the contract? by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    BAE had another contract for building more of these. How did GA get this? Do not get me wrong. I am happy to see this since rail guns are about the sanest approach to weapons. BUT, GA had lost the contract.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  61. Oops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    https://imgur.com/gallery/TzwvO

    The gun is off center so that the barrel firing is perfectly lined up with the center of the plane, otherwise it would crash. Not that it turns it.

  62. Re:There must be a money burning contest in the US by Arker · · Score: 1

    That's true of the broader scene.

    This project in particular seems to have some odd implications as well. I believe it's poor policy, contrary to our national interest, but nonetheless Washington is committed to encircling China with the Navy, and clearly this tech is intended to help with that. But I have to project the Chinese copying the tech rapidly. And this sort of weapon is going to be easier and cheaper to implement (not to mention much more accurate!) if you mount it on land instead of on a ship.

    I suspect by the time the US Navy has a number of these weapons in operational use, the Chinese will counter with much larger number of similar, if less sophisticated, versions in fixed emplacements along their coast, and their position will be better, not worse as a result.

    That is to say, it appears to be tech that swings the balance of power toward defense. Not necessarily a bad thing that, but if the governments purpose in developing this technology was defensive, they would not have gone to all the trouble to specifically implement this as a ship-portable weapon.

    It's very neat tech, and I can understand some enthusiasm on a purely technical level, but on the level of 'good use of taxpayers money' I am afraid it is pure fail.

    --
    =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
  63. Now, they need to create several one-offs. by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    In particular, for the ships, they need a replacement for Phalanx. Basically, imagine a gattling gun with these at say 8 megajoules rather than 64 mj that this uses. Simply fire small rounds to take out an incoming missile or plane that comes within 20 miles.

    In addition, the house republicans need to allow the DOD to stop production on the M1A2. They want to upgrade the system so that it will have better protection from IEDs, but also so that the main gun can be replaced with this. A tank that can shot shells like this just 10 miles, but in particular, can do it with 3 second bursts, would be a major change in warfare.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  64. It doesn't seem there would be any good defense ag by jordanjay29 · · Score: 1

    I'm sure at some point, someone thought the same of missiles, cannons or even bow & arrows. Eventually, a defense will be discovered.

  65. Lots of problems I can see. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    -Big issues with trying to put a guidance system on a small Mach 7 projectile - surrounded in 2000 deg C air during flight.
    -Huge, heavy energy storage containing 10's of kg of TNT equivalent.
    -Rail erosion limiting you to 10's or 100's of shots.
    -Need to do high ballistic arcs for ranges over a few 10's of km as otherwise air drag screws your speed/kinetic energy. So long flight times of 5-6 minutes for all targets beyond perhaps 50-100km (and missiles + jets can beat that).

    I am surprised that they are not developing ram-accelerators instead. Cheapest + lightest way to do high speed projectiles, fewer barrel erosion issues, bigger projectiles and speeds possible with same space/mass of equipment. Uses simple oxygen and combustible gas for power and can have potentially very high firing rate.

    1. Re:Lots of problems I can see. by Blaskowicz · · Score: 1

      The huge energy storage is ultimately the ship's diesel fuel, or what variant of heavy fuel oil it uses. That makes the logistics and storage easy (more accurately, already done).

  66. Carriers by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    Likely doesn't matter if the ship you are bolting it to has a nuclear reactor on board. May birth a new type of nuclear ship, with a rail gun specialization.

    Likely not usable without such a power source I would think. With that source, I doubt energy reserve will be the issue.

    I think the issue will be one of materials. Subjecting a barrel to that kind of force and heat repeatedly is going to have a negative effect on it. If you take too many shots too quickly, you will likely damage it. I wonder how they cool it without causing additional hot/cold stress. Not to mention expansion issues.

    1. Re:Carriers by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Well, the issue is not so much energy as it is power. A nuclear reactor doesn't really deliver any more power than a turbine - it just doesn't run out of fuel as often and doesn't require air (not an issue on the surface).

      If your reactor delivers power in the MW range, and to fire at max speed your railgun needs power in the GW range, then you have a problem. Heat/wear has been an even bigger problem in the past as you've noted, but power is still a challenge if you want to sustain a high firing rate.

    2. Re:Carriers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You may want to heat it, rather than cool it, then use your hypothetical heat exchanger to hold it at a hot temperature. (to avoid the cycling stresses you mention)

  67. Get over this crap already! by monkeyFuzz · · Score: 1

    From the vast majority of /. posts on this weapon the community resembles a bunch of 10 year old boys playing war and comparing and contrasting all kinds of minutiae without considering what are arguably the more important issues: Why do we need yet more efficient means of destruction? What purpose does it achieve? Instead of being raving fanboys have you considered the opportunity cost of the resources expended in such programs?

    1. Re:Get over this crap already! by geekoid · · Score: 1

      "Why do we need yet more efficient means of destruction?"
      more efficiency means less deaths, and more accurate usage.

      " What purpose does it achieve?"
      helps bypass anti-missle defense, and safer delivery for the crew.

      " Instead of being raving fanboys have you considered the opportunity cost of the resources expended in such programs?"
      Yes. Since operating it will likely prove to be cheaper, and require less material then current systems, it's a long term gain.
      You do know, the military has experts the work those numbers, right?

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:Get over this crap already! by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Because military power is not something where you can get "enough". You only have enough against given opposition. You may not have to use it, as a perfectly good use of military power is to convince other people not to start a war with you, but you need enough to win. Unfortunately, this means that keeping competitive takes increasing amounts of money, because potential opponents can spend more too. I forget who said that the most expensive luxury is a military almost good enough to win.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  68. Modern Vessels by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    From what I understand many modern vessels "engine rooms" are basically electric generating stations, that power is then used to run various systems (propulsion, lighting, desalinization, etc). I highly doubt that a railgun could use more power than the propulsion system so as long as they aren't running at flank speed or doing evasive maneuvers they should be able to shoot as quickly as the capacitor charge rate will allow.

  69. Answer a question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How does it taste "eating your words" http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

    * Hmmm?

    (I'd imagine NOT SO BAD, considering you had your FOOT IN YOUR MOUTH already, to "ram 'em down" (lol), like it or not, PLUS you washed 'em down with "the bitter taste of SELF-defeat"... lol!)

    APK

    P.S.=> You? Fail... apk

  70. the future is now... by schlachter · · Score: 2

    and now...and now...and now...it just keeps coming

    --
    My God can beat up your God. Just kidding...don't take offense. I know there's no God.
    1. Re:the future is now... by geekoid · · Score: 3, Funny

      The future is never now..the present is now.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:the future is now... by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Now is always the past. Your perception is delayed, unless you are the event.

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    3. Re:the future is now... by Johann+Lau · · Score: 3, Funny

      Too soon.

    4. Re:the future is now... by liamoohay · · Score: 1

      The future is never now..the present is now.

      Or at least it was then.

  71. Redneck reply#1 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I bet this would be *AWESOME* at scaring the raccoons from the back yard!

  72. 1/5th by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    At the barrel maybe, but even if you aimed this thing at the perfect trajectory how fast would it be when it exited the atmosphere (~100 kilometers up). I would be surprised if it was going 1/10th escape velocity.

  73. The very definition of a B.A.L.R.O.G. by GJSchaller · · Score: 1

    Big Ass, Long Range, Overkill Gun.

    Now, if it takes 60 seconds to charge and the bridge crew needs to don goggles to fire it... ;-)

  74. The downside may be. by Grey+Geezer · · Score: 1

    that it will be very difficult or even impossible to make it a "smart" projectile. I'm guessing that even the most advanced electronics and guidance mechanics can not stand up to that G force. Anyone with expertise in these things please comment.

    --
    The USA is only 4X older than me...perspective
    1. Re:The downside may be. by garyebickford · · Score: 1

      One of the articles I read today says that the Army has already got that going. They are already firing 'smart' projectiles from howitzers and other large guns, and I would think that the accelerations are equivalent.

      Just idly thinking about this, solid state electronics can take a lot. When you drop your watch on a concrete floor it may experience 700 G deceleration on impact, at an arbitrary angle.

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    2. Re:The downside may be. by holmstar · · Score: 1

      Howitzers don't fire rounds at mach 7. Also, any electronics in a smart rail gun projectile would need to withstand a pretty intense magnetic pulse.

    3. Re:The downside may be. by Lehk228 · · Score: 1

      EM shielding for the electronics is easy, shielding for the servos needed to steer however...

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
    4. Re:The downside may be. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The HARP project fired projectiles with scientific payloads at Mach ~12 in the 60s, and the pulse of magnetic field is not too bad, especially when you know where and in what direction it will be. Both are non-trivial issues, but have been addressed before in various other situations.

    5. Re:The downside may be. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      OK, WWII proximity fuzes worked with *vacuum tubes* and survived the 100000G (one hundred thousand G) acceleration and 20000 RPM spin from a good old cannon.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F...

  75. Not nearly fast enough to be really useful. by Karmashock · · Score: 1

    We need shells that can reach 25,000 Mph... enough to reach low earth orbit. Correct me if I'm wrong on that number...

    Then we can translate electricity directly into orbital launch capability.

    Obviously useless for moving human beings or sensitive equipment. But for bulk supplies... fuel, air, structural material... maybe food... Suddenly we launch such things for a fraction of cost which means orbital habitats might be sustainable.

    --
    I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
  76. favorite by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Railgun: Slashdoter's Favorite High-Tech Weapon

  77. Back to the Napoleonic Wars!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Run out the 32 pounders and fire on the uproll!!!

  78. Jerk by srussia · · Score: 1

    The recoil is lower than a conventiomal chemical gun for the same projectile and speed because no gas is accelerated with the projectile.

    The subjective perception of recoil is really a function of (given constant mass) jerk not acceleration.

    --
    Set your phasers on "funky"!
    1. Re:Jerk by geekoid · · Score: 2

      And if there is any place that knows about jerk, it's /. :)

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  79. Easy by geekoid · · Score: 0

    It's actually powered with the soul of a forsaken child. What you see is it's tears.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    1. Re:Easy by Tough+Love · · Score: 0

      +1 informative.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
  80. Whats up with the Catamaran design? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Where BiriBiri and Index?

    But in honesty, this is very exciting. But the design of the Catamaran is god awful. Looks like a Chinese plastic toy.

  81. I don't know about that... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    rofl. "No one will need more than 637 kB of memory for a personal computer" - Bill Gates

  82. Even a Railgun ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Even a Railgun ...won't make up for a uniform with bell bottoms!

  83. conflicted and confused by confused+one · · Score: 1

    I don't know whether to be happy that another science fiction article has become science fact; or, horrified at the future capability it represents. I know someone in a back room is wondering, "How large will this scale and still be viable inside the atmosphere?"

  84. Good, close-in weapon system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Without the need for high explosives on board, and without the weight of that chemical, they can store many more shells. At sea level (and this is the Navy, so they are basically always at sea level), the speed of sound (Mach 1) is about 746 miles per hour. Mach 7 then is 5222 miles per hour. Launched at a 45 degree angle, the maximum time of flight then is 336.649 seconds (flight time from firing on the surface to 168.3 second later, and time from apex back to target on the surface), and the maximum range is 345.30028 miles. The apex is at an altitude of 277853.474902722289374 meters (277 km). This might be their range limit though: you don't want to hit an aircraft between the ship and the target, and so they likely limit the angle to a few degrees above the horizon so that they don't wind up hitting something unintentionally.

  85. Get all your Terrorists in a Row by Bob+Munck · · Score: 1

    I'm unclear how widespread deployment of this weapon would have altered the course of any of the wars we've waged during my lifetime. And I'm 68 years old.

  86. Didn't I just see that? by arthurh3535 · · Score: 1

    I'm pretty sure I saw that in Captain America: Winter Soldier last night. Now they just need to get it flying! :)

    --
    No! It's a *SIG*. Keep the Special Interest Groups away! (Con joke!)
  87. Be careful by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The entire history of warfare is filled with statements like:

    "There is no good defense against this", "This weapon is so terrible it will end war", and "Innovation X will make our side unstoppable".

    Such statements are always proven wrong, given time, a change in circumstances, new combatants and new battlefields. If you want wisdom about warfare ask an old soldier, or read Sun Tsu, or Von Clauswitz. Don't read Jane's or the latest Pentagon budget proposal.

  88. Re: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Advantages:
    - you can store many more rounds in the magazine
    - the ammunition is ballistic, no explosives to maintain, no magazines to monitor
    - the rounds are very fast - mach7- and will generally travel with minimal trajectory change under garvity, so easier to aim
    - due to the speed, they have very high armor penetrating power
    - the guidance system, once launched is simpler than a rocket's, so it's more reliable once in flight
    - it would be nigh impossible to intercept, due to the velocity
    - too small to see incoming on radar

  89. Just stop. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    As you said, "the oxygen will combust at those levels".

    No, it won't; not without a fuel. Full stop. Just give up your attempt to paint the person who replied to you as a moron in order to try to hide your mistaken assertion that oxygen can combust without a fuel.

  90. What threat? by manu0601 · · Score: 1

    What threat do you face when you spend alone 50% of worldwide military expenses? And it skyrockets to 80% if counting NATO allies.

    1. Re:What threat? by OldHawk777 · · Score: 1

      Freedom by any other name is still MIC autocracy.

      --
      Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
  91. Capturing another navy by mdsolar · · Score: 1

    Seems like a barrage should be able to form a wave that can capsize a boat. Go back in and salvage and you get an addition to your own navy. Our first naval battle did exactly that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B...

  92. Still some work to do by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Cool, yes but it doesn't even come close to competing with cruise missiles in terms of range:

    Rail Gun: 100-200 mi

    Block II TLAM-A – 1,350 nmi (1,550 mi; 2,500 km)
    Block III TLAM-C, Block IV TLAM-E – 900 nmi (1,000 mi; 1,700 km)
    Block III TLAM-D – 700 nmi (810 mi; 1,300 km)

  93. Step 2: Everyone will want one by straz · · Score: 1
    It will be cheaper than missiles and impossible to defend against. So, we all know that sooner or later we'll be on the receiving end of these exciting new weapons, right?

    The plan is to protect ourselves with... uh... patents?

  94. Well, that was awkward... by raver_wolf · · Score: 1

    I just got a freedom boner.

  95. Why just use it to smash? by dbIII · · Score: 1

    My first thought was far too geeky - "mach 7 - I wonder if this could be used as a cheap way to test scramjet models".
    A scramjet model I saw as far back as 1987 probably wasn't much bigger than the size of these projectiles. Progress has been so slow because shock tunnels give limited time at speed and testing via rocket is expensive and time consuming.

  96. while millions of americans are homless and starvi by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    the military gets a shiney new toy

    only in America

  97. Two questions by treeves · · Score: 1

    1. How loud is it?
    2. How hot does the projectile get after a mile at Mach 7?

    I'm guessing:
    1. Really loud.
    2. Really hot.

    --
    ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
    1. Re:Two questions by treeves · · Score: 1

      I realize after a mile probably not so hot yet, since that takes only about half a second!
      How hot does it get after 50 miles at Mach 7?
      There, I fixed that for myself.

      --
      ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
  98. Ammo in a different form by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 2

    Not much room needed for the projectiles, less danger of a powder room exploding, fine. But none of this seems to even mention: what is generating the massive amount of electrical energy required per shot? Not to mention rate of fire - how much time is needed to generate that power for each shot? That this is a very quiet elephant in the room implies it's pretty bad on both counts.

    1. Re:Ammo in a different form by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or it doesn't get mentioned because it is well known that large ships have some serious electrical power available in terms of diesel or nuclear powered turbines...Even if this thing was only a couple percent efficient in terms of electrical energy, it would be able to fire more than once a minute on most larger naval ships.

    2. Re:Ammo in a different form by Chrontius · · Score: 1

      Either a nuke, or a gas turbine; either coupled to a capacitor bank that's very close to inert when discharged.

    3. Re:Ammo in a different form by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Naval Gas Turbine generators can generate alot of power real quick when they divert power from propulsion to weapons. Then you have naval nuclear reactors, which produce so much power that an aircraft carrier has a top speed of 40 knots (which is nuts and terrifying).

      not needing a powder magazine means that the ship can carry a bigger reactor, and can have a capacitor setup to handle bursty things like weapons and high powered sensors.

    4. Re:Ammo in a different form by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It was already mentioned. On an aircraft carrier, a nuclear reactor generates power which transfers to the electrical system which is then distributed for propulsion, general services (lighting, computers, powering the all important ice cream machine), launching kinetic missiles (possible in the future), and (for carriers so equipped) launching aircraft. On any other surface craft, replace nuclear power generator with diesel power generator. As for exact amount of energy required and the rate of fire, I will leave that for an unclassified brief. They'll probably have one soon if they don't already.

      On a closely related subject, the electromagnetic aircraft launch system is far superior to steam catapult launches in many ways. Electrical power is more precise and much simpler to dial in to the right output than a steam catapult system. Changes in aircraft weight, ordinance weight, air speed... it's difficult to launch birds with finesse, but EMALS allows just that. The steam system still requires power to heat the water to steam (and you spent power to desalinate that water). Then there is the trade off between driving the ship faster (generating more lift, less launch power needed) vs simply putting more power into the launch at a lower speed. (I don't know how that works out; I haven't seen it in action.) So the cost in power is quite reasonable if you assume that a warcraft should be capable of launching projectiles.

  99. Am i the only one? by stonebit · · Score: 1

    Am i the only one who finds our race to destryoy more shit more quickly disturbing?

    1. Re:Am i the only one? by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      Well, you could end each conflict by lobbing a few ICBM's at the enemy. That'd stop them for sure.

      These weapons are an alternative to lobbing nukes. A nicer alternative, something akin to the difference between removing a tumor with a scalpel or with a sledgehammer. Neither is fun for the tumor, but the surrounding tissue prefers the scalpel.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
  100. Sure! Let's buy all of them! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because we just do not have enough ways to kill people already.

  101. Wind Resistance by allonoak · · Score: 1

    If you are confused because it can't travel further, it's the end result of wind resistance on the projectile.

  102. Glitterboy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1. Miniaturize cannon to an over-the-shoulder unit of about 7 ft in length and 300lbs.
    2. Make an exosuit covered in chrome.
    3. Install a mini-reactor to power both of the above.
    4. ????????
    5. GLITTERBOY!

  103. Yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's from the birds who nest in there.

  104. Refit the USS Missouri and the USS New Jersey with by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Refit the USS Missouri and the USS New Jersey with railguns and nuke propulsions ... Battlewagons rule!

  105. Questions and a comment by EM2(RET)Knight · · Score: 1

    Refit the USS Missouri and USS New Jersey with railguns and nuke propulsion systems Imagine the broadside coming down on your position... Now my son asks if the railguns could put something in LEO? Help! BTW... Battlewagons rule!

  106. Mach 7? by Sanhedran · · Score: 1

    I'd rather seem them launched at Windows 8.

  107. better install them all along the CA coast by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    better install them all along the CA coast

  108. the era of environmentally friendly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    killing begins

  109. My Question? Clean no nuke energy dissipation??? by OldHawk777 · · Score: 1

    Is that more or less than 100megaton yeild at PoI?

    --
    Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
  110. Re:My Question? Clean no nuke energy dissipation?? by OldHawk777 · · Score: 1

    Whoops, no not 100megaton only about 16 pounds of TNT, I guess that is equal to a bomb vest, but far more specific targeting.

    --
    Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
  111. I AM a physicist AND I have relevant experience. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Thus says the ignorant supraman. Have you ever considered taking the winds into account? They are actually pretty steady unless you are in a wild storm.
    Now, please go back and re-read the first line of the summary. 100 miles, not 200. That works out to 1.1 minutes which is blazing fast. Only an automated system already on alert can respond in that time, and not necessarily accurately. Missile defense systems are not like a handgun with a simple trigger.

    Next, I find your frantic hyperbole disturbing. A small town? really? Even with a 10 MPH crosswind somehow not taken into account, the displacement would be ~1000 feet, and 10 MPH is being generous by a factor of 10. I went to school in a small town that nestled between two highway exits two miles apart. Even if I grant you 1000 feet, you are still off by one order of magnitude. In reality, a reasonable accuracy is +- 100 ft. Hell, I'll give you 100 yds and still say that I can hit that factory or refinery or laboratory.

    You who rated this "informative", shame on you.
    -pax humana

  112. Zontar - sockpuppeteer & libeler by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "You barge into discussions with your off-topic hosts file nonsense" - by Zontar The Mindless (9002) on Friday April 11, 2014 @09:51PM (#46731153) FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

    You said my "APK Hosts File Engine" is a virus/malware http://slashdot.org/comments.p... but it's EASILY PROVABLE it's not, right there in that link too.

    Now PROVE YOUR FALSE ACCUSATION above: Show me a quote OR POST of me posting off topic on hosts where they did NOT apply... go for it!

    ---

    You avoided backing up your accusation where YOU said I say you are Barbara, not Barbie = TomHudson (same person http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... , & sockpuppeteer like you) -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

    Funny you can't back up your "bluster" there either, lol...

    ---

    Why, Lastly?

    You're crackers! See here multiple personality disorder http://slashdot.org/comments.p... + manic depression http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

    APK

    P.S.=> So, THIS quote below is my policy on sockpuppeteers like you Zontar = TrollingForHostsFiles (your sockpuppetry):

    "The only way to a achieve peace, is thru the ELIMINATION of those who would perpetuate war (sockpuppet masters like YOU, troll -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p... ). THIS IS MY PROGRAMMING -> http://start64.com/index.php?o... & soon, I will be UNSTOPPABLE..." - Ultron 6 FROM -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

    Which quite obviously, I am, since none of you DOLTISH TROLLS are able to validly technically disprove my points on hosts enumerated in the link to my program above of how hosts give users of them more speed, security, reliability, & anonymity... period!

    (Trolls like YOU that use sockpuppets http://slashdot.org/comments.p... (your sockpuppet "alterego" TrollingForHostsFiles) & TomHudson - Barbara, not Barbie too http://tech.slashdot.org/comme... before you)

    ... apk