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Navy Debuts New Railgun That Launches Shells at Mach 7

Jeremiah Cornelius writes: "The U.S. Navy's new railgun technology, developed by General Atomics, uses the Lorentz force in a type of linear, electric motor to hurl a 23-pound projectile at speeds exceeding Mach 7 — in excess of 5,000 mph. The weapon has a range of 100 miles and doesn't require explosive warheads. 'The electromagnetic railgun represents an incredible new offensive capability for the U.S. Navy,' says Rear Adm. Bryant Fuller, the Navy's chief engineer. 'This capability will allow us to effectively counter a wide range of threats at a relatively low cost, while keeping our ships and sailors safer by removing the need to carry as many high-explosive weapons.' Sea trials begin aboard an experimental Navy catamaran, the USNS Millinocket, in 2016."

420 of 630 comments (clear)

  1. No jetpacks yet... by occasional_dabbler · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...but at least part of the future is here already.

    --
    "Our opponent is an alien starship packed with atomic bombs," I said. "we have a protractor"
    1. Re:No jetpacks yet... by aliquis · · Score: 2

      Rocketpacks have been around for long, they run out quickly though.

      Jetpacks I think they also used later. (One of the guys really into it died (I don't think it was from the pack.))

    2. Re:No jetpacks yet... by occasional_dabbler · · Score: 2

      I know there are examples flying, albeit briefly, but not one I can get from Target that flies me to work and back all week before refuelling with a nuclear pill...

      --
      "Our opponent is an alien starship packed with atomic bombs," I said. "we have a protractor"
    3. Re:No jetpacks yet... by ColdWetDog · · Score: 3, Funny

      Fool! You have to go to the Sharper Image catalog for that sort of thing.

      Hell, Target doesn't even sell Mr. Fusions yet.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    4. Re:No jetpacks yet... by JoeMerchant · · Score: 2

      This is one of the things that Regan's "Star Wars" projects started working on in the late 1980s... about damn time for the first prototypes to be shown.

    5. Re:No jetpacks yet... by sconeu · · Score: 3, Funny

      Mr. Fusion comes out next year (2015).

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    6. Re:No jetpacks yet... by viperidaenz · · Score: 2

      Along with flying cars and hoverboards too, right?

    7. Re:No jetpacks yet... by davester666 · · Score: 2

      Introducing the RailPack. The new way of speedy point-to-point travel.

      (you may experience some windburn) (and some stress from accelerating at a very high rate)

      --
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    8. Re:No jetpacks yet... by geekoid · · Score: 2

      Jokes on you, I was in the kickstarter and get mine first!

      --
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    9. Re:No jetpacks yet... by boristdog · · Score: 2

      Jeez, I remember touring the UT high-energy physics lab in Austin back in 1995 where they were working on these. Back then I thought for sure they would be out before 2014.

      We got to see it shoot through about 20 feet of wood, which was cool, but only about 1/3 the speed of this one.

    10. Re:No jetpacks yet... by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1

      Okay, while not a jetpack, this thing could send you 100 miles at Mach 7. Obviously, sticking the landing might be rough.

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    11. Re:No jetpacks yet... by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 1

      Okay, while not a jetpack, this thing could send you 100 miles at Mach 7. Obviously, sticking the landing might be rough.

      That's ok. No one at the landing site will be alive to judge you.

      --
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    12. Re:No jetpacks yet... by oursland · · Score: 1

      Jetpacks have been around since the 1960s. The most successful models involve carrying large quantities of H2O2 on your back, pushing it through a catalyst, and having the exhaust come out at destructively hot temperatures. They're heavy, hard to control, and only provide a few seconds of controlled flight. In other words, they're a huge liability for limited utility.

      Much like other forms of transport, flight is most effective when it is scaled up to many persons per trip.

    13. Re:No jetpacks yet... by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      You will definitely stick on the landing ... smear might be more appropriate, but you'll stick to whatever you land on as the mist of what you once where settles back down.

      --
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    14. Re:No jetpacks yet... by JoeMerchant · · Score: 2

      I was at U of Miami in 1990, they were just finishing up fancy new Physics and Engineering buildings, funded in large part by the Regan programs...

    15. Re:No jetpacks yet... by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      Damn, I thought Skymall would definitely have it.

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  2. IANA Physicist, So... by errxn · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ...Can someone who is explain where the big fiery explosion out of the railgun is coming from, if this thing is electromagnetically driven?

    --
    In Soviet Russia, Chuck Norris will still kick your ass.
    1. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Hot expanding gases, you're pushing a projectile at Mach 7 through air that doesn't really have anywhere to go.

    2. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by peragrin · · Score: 5, Informative

      It is called plasma. It happens when you heat gases beyond a particular limit.

      A 23 pound slug traveling at Mach 7 is displacing a lot of air very quickly.

      Do you think that air will get colder?

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    3. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by errxn · · Score: 2

      OK, hot, yes, but wouldn't they need something combustible to actually erupt into flame? Or what am I missing?

      --
      In Soviet Russia, Chuck Norris will still kick your ass.
    4. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by PortHaven · · Score: 5, Informative

      Oxygen, it's in the air...

      fine vaporized particles of metal...

      *poof*

    5. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Moheeheeko · · Score: 5, Funny

      Oxygen is pretty combustable if you get it hot enough. Friction is a bitch yo.

    6. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      you need 3 things for fire:

      fuel
      air
      heat

      Oxygen is flammable all on its own, it is essentially both fuel and air. Friction gives you the heat. What you see is the air itself burning. The good news is air density is low, so it can't run out of control and ignite the entire atmosphere. The bad news is, this is actually slowing down the potential top end speed of the projectile, you are getting resistance immediately.

    7. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting
      The currents involved here vaporize part of the structure and the shell. It's a very destructive process. They use something called a "sabot", the actual projectile is inside the sabot. The sabot is what is being driven/destroyed in the process. The problem with railguns is that they are linear scaling. The relationship between the force supplied to the sabot and the current is strictly linear as F=BLI.

      So you need an incredible amount of current in a very short time to get an effect like this.

      It's not entirely clear what the advantage of a railgun would be, it's very hard on the cannon. Psychology, I guess. It's an inert piece of metal that can't be jammed and is probably hard to spot on radar too.

    8. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Assmasher · · Score: 2

      The nitrogen under pressure remains inert, but the oxygen will combust at those levels. There's a great video of the plastic block they were testing with years ago with a huge wall of flame behind it as it traveled at mach 5 iirc...

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    9. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Ryyuajnin · · Score: 2

      "When air is compressed very quickly, it can reach high temperatures. In this demonstration we show how cotton wool can reach the point of auto-ignition by quick compression of air in the fire syringe." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

    10. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Liquid? It's fluid, but not liquid, now is it?

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    11. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Ferrofluid · · Score: 2

      Oxygen is most definitely not flammable. Please take a grade-six science class.

    12. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      If oxygen was both fuel and air, why the hell would we have two separate categories then?

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    13. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by MozeeToby · · Score: 5, Informative

      "Flame" is nothing but superheated gases. You can have a flame without combustion if you raise the temperature some other way. In this case it's electrical heating, ram air pressure, and simple air friction.

    14. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Redmancometh · · Score: 1

      Just think of a giant fire cylinder, but in reverse, and much larger.

    15. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Redmancometh · · Score: 2

      Ah..redundancy and no edit button.

    16. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Now we just need someone to say: "Yeah, bitch! Magnets!" and our Breaking Bad reference is done.

    17. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by occasional_dabbler · · Score: 3, Informative
      This is simple. You are making the air near the missile move at Mach 7.

      The temperature of the air will be around ten times ambient, so 3000K, which is more or less the stochiometric temperature for hydrocarbon fuels.

      Read this for details of the isentropic flow relationships.

      --
      "Our opponent is an alien starship packed with atomic bombs," I said. "we have a protractor"
    18. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by psycho12345 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The range means you can fire it from beyond the horizon, so radar can never spot the firing. The speed means you have no way in hell of dodging it or shooting it down. And the kinetic energy of it means no armor will block it, short of armoring the ship to the point it can't move. Just take aim at the power plant or armory of the other ship and you get a guaranteed kill. I think the key advantage is the inability to be dodged or shot down like a shell, but the range of a missile. Also, I imagine detecting a missile launch is easier then detecting a railgun firing.

    19. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      most high power rail guns operate with what is called a plasma armature, meaning that the projectile or sabot is probably designed with ablation in mind and that the current heats the metal body of the sabot or projectile to the point of ionization so that additional accelerating current is able to flow through the plasma

      the 'plasma cloud' behind the projectile is at a temperature of thousands of degrees -- it will appear 'hot' from blackbody radiation and emission spectra of anything moving in the cloud, and the fact that it's both enormously hot and ionized and has things with colorful emission spectra floating in it is for the most part enough for it to behave like a fireball when leaving the confinement of the barrel, but probably there are combustion and electrochemical reactions occuring as well

    20. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Bacon+Bits · · Score: 5, Informative

      Not exactly. Oxygen is a prerequisite for the process known as combustion, since combustion is an oxidization reaction. "A rapid, exothermic oxidation of a substance, called the fuel," is a reasonable definition of combustion. Usually we say the fuel is combustible.

      --
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    21. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by JeffAtl · · Score: 1

      This is simple.

      You're over complicating it. It's not the air but the sabot that is used to encase the projectile.

    22. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by ClickOnThis · · Score: 1, Redundant

      Not exactly. Oxygen is a prerequisite for the process known as combustion, since combustion is an oxidization reaction. "A rapid, exothermic oxidation of a substance, called the fuel," is a reasonable definition of combustion. Usually we say the fuel is combustible.

      Mod parent informative. Oxygen doesn't burn. Rather, other stuff burns by combining rapidly with oxygen.

      --
      If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
    23. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by ClickOnThis · · Score: 2

      Oxygen+Heat-> ??? -> Profit!

      FTFY.

      [And yes, you're right. Oxygen doesn't burn; other stuff burns by combining with it.]

      --
      If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
    24. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by DerekLyons · · Score: 2

      It's not entirely clear what the advantage of a railgun would be

      It means you don't have carry propellant for the shells - propellant that's volatile and dangerous to handle and store. (Historically, the vast majority of Naval ordinance casualties are related to the propellant, not the payload.) You reduce the size, weight, and complexity of the handling path as the size and weight of the round decreases. You also reduce the size of the magazines. (Yes, some of the saved space and weight will be spent on whatever provides the energy for the gun.)

    25. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by garyebickford · · Score: 4, Informative

      There are several advantages to railguns for the Navy, in lethality, cost-per-round, how much ammo you can carry, and overall safety.

      Lethality - the kinetic energy of a 'passive' round at these velocities is equivalent to or greater than an explosive round (though I would think it might not be all that useful in all circumstances - just flying through some softer materials instead of blowing them up). As the videos show, the 'kill' factor is substantial. The projectiles are also much less affected by gravitational drop and windage - I would think proportional to the velocity - so accuracy will be better. The higher velocity also allows for firing at much longer range - up to 200 miles vs. 30 for the latest 155mm round.

      Cost-per-round - while not as cheap as lasers (the laser about to go through sea trials has a cost of about $1 per shot), these systems should have a cost-per-round an order of magnitude cheaper than the big artillery presently in use. (I just read that 155mm shells cost $50,000 each.) It's much easier, cheaper, and safer to build a solid chunk of tungsten or whatever than a huge shell, especially when the savings in transport and necessary safety systems and procedures is taken into account.

      How much - the propellant takes up a lot of space, must be stored in special containment that takes up more space. All of that space can be used to store actual projectiles instead, possibly multiplying the number of rounds available by a factor of 5 to 10. Add to that the the higher kinetic energy allows a smaller projectile to be equally effective, which means you can increase the number even more.

      Safety - this eliminates the problem of ammunition exploding either in the ship that will use it, or the supply ship. There are many instances of a single 'lucky' hit on a ship that happens to penetrate the ammunition magazines, whereupon that explosion rips the ship in half. The explosives used in ammunition are also toxic. Removing the propellant greatly increases the survival probability in the event of a hit, and eliminates the probability of an unfortunate accident sinking the ship. This also means the supply ships are safer and can deliver much more ammunition in one trip.

      --
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    26. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by occasional_dabbler · · Score: 1
      Possibly. What is it made of? Without the full drawings and a week to think about it it's hard to say exactly what causes the effect.

      Funny how that reminds me of the day job...

      --
      "Our opponent is an alien starship packed with atomic bombs," I said. "we have a protractor"
    27. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by ClickOnThis · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's an inert piece of metal that can't be jammed and is probably hard to spot on radar too.

      IAAP, although not an expert in rail guns or radar.

      I would guess that the projectiles would be hard to detect on radar because they're small. However, it would seem to me that the rail gun itself would send out one hell of a large EMP that would reveal the location of the gun and the time of firing.

      --
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    28. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      It's like a meteorite... only in thicker air.

    29. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      It will get colder, in the low pressure wake. PV=nRT

    30. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by JoeMerchant · · Score: 2

      Radar can spot the incoming shell.

      You can defend against it with a similar projectile fired to intercept (not easy, but would work if you got it right)

      It won't be doing Mach 7 for long... friction and all...

    31. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by wjcofkc · · Score: 1

      It's all in the transfer of kinetic energy from the projectile into the target. It's like being in a car accident at 5,000 MPH.

      --
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    32. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by TuringCheck · · Score: 1

      OK, hot, yes, but wouldn't they need something combustible to actually erupt into flame? Or what am I missing?

      Heating caused by compression or by burning results in plasma - ionized gas - which you see.

    33. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by njnnja · · Score: 2, Funny

      Oxygen is most definitely not flammable

      So then it is inflammable?

      Worst apparent negative prefix ever.

    34. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Will.Woodhull · · Score: 1

      I'm guessing the muzzle flash is from part of the sabot. Maybe styrofoam peanuts, maybe a big coil of copper wire.

      I'm not sure how much of this presentation has been photoshopped. The flight sequence doesn't look right-- if this was going at Mach 7, how come the background looks like something from an airplane at 100 mph?

      I'm guessing the projectile is depleted uranium, judging by its behavior on impact. Is there anything new in the unclassified pages about the depleted uranium dust we deployed in Iraq during the Gulf War? Last I heard, the stuff was probably nasty, with effects lasting a decade or more.

      --
      Will
    35. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      (I just read that 155mm shells cost $50,000 each.)

      An unguided artillery shell + fuse is about $1,000 ea.

      http://azstarnet.com/business/local/raytheon-counts-on-artillery/article_d4551a54-8d7b-56d3-8ae0-d978dfbf7757.html

    36. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Man+Eating+Duck · · Score: 4, Interesting

      OK, hot, yes, but wouldn't they need something combustible to actually erupt into flame? Or what am I missing?

      I think this is what's going on: when something is burning, the flame you see is just glowing hot air, heated by the energy from the combustion. The flame is not part of the combustion, just the side effect. In this video you see glowing hot air heated by compression and possibly the shock wave from the projectile. Same result, but the energy source is different.

      If you've seen a meteor (streak of light in the sky at night, or a visible fireball with a trail if you're really, really lucky), the principle is the same, nothing is burning. The heat come from compression of the air in front of it, and the light you see is from the superheated air in its wake (and a little from the glowing meteorite).

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    37. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by jeffmeden · · Score: 1

      It's not entirely clear what the advantage of a railgun would be, it's very hard on the cannon.

      Its in TFS FFS. The main advantage (aside from being a super fucking cool way to shoot/destroy something and being cheaper to procure per round) is that it requires no explosives to be stored on board the ship. Explosives are a huge risk, especially during combat, since your enemy can sink you with one very lucky hit if things get out of hand below deck.

    38. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Generally speaking "burning" refers to chemical reactions of the form "X + oxygen -> Heat + Y". but X can't be more oxygen - there's no reaction possible, it's already in it's lowest-energy state. You can make ozone under the right circumstances, but that consumes heat rather than creating it.

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    39. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Will.Woodhull · · Score: 1

      I also think the muzzle flash is from the sabot.

      One advantage mentioned in TFA is that there are no combustibles in the ship's magazine. When you can treat your ammo the same way you treat the canned peaches, your ship has an incredible advantage over traditional warships.

      Other advantages are longer range, simplified sight picture of a moving target (at 5,000 mph a truck 100 miles away is not going to move very far down the road), and pyrophoric behavior when depleted uranium is used in the projectile (in addition to the kinetic energy, you have the explosive behavior of releasing a burning hot cloud of uranium dust at the point of impact).

      This is a truly nasty weapon.

      --
      Will
    40. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by X0563511 · · Score: 2

      Regarding the background: that is an incredibly high-speed camera, being rotated at a very high speed (think "on a spring"). AFAIK the slug needs to be ferromagnetic. Is uranium? I don't actually know. The sabot is just there to help not destroy the rails and make sure the projectile stays on them (eg doesn't flop out) - it's not meant to help carry the projectile.

      The affects on the target when you have something moving that fast are rather dramatic - even plain old steel.

      --
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    41. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      Instead, you have to store enough energy to fire the thing. I assure you - punching a hole in a capacitor bank charged up to fire one of these will not merely result in an 'arc flash' hazard...

      But, at least you can discharge these and then later charge them. It's kind of hard to not have propellant and then suddenly have some when you want it - it's there all the time.

      --
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    42. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by noh8rz10 · · Score: 3

      "he's not famous, he's in famous."

    43. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by InvalidError · · Score: 1

      You also have the extremely high current arcs between the rails and the projectile super-heating air around it, sputtering material from both the rails and slug, oxidizing in air when it exits the plasma cloud.

    44. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      The slug needs to be electrically conductive, not ferromagnetic.

      uses the Lorentz force

      They induce a magnetic field in the projectile to push it out the gun. They don't use big magnets to pull it out the gun.

    45. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      If their radar can't see you then your radar can't see them, so you have no way to aim. Well, you could use satellites, but so could they. Ditto aircraft. Also, over-the-horizon radar. Thing is getting the accuracy to hit something as relatively small as the power plant or armoury is going to be hard at that range, especially as you still have to account for wind and atmospheric conditions, and movement of the target.

      Don't get me wrong, it's a nice weapon, but not quite as useful or deadly as the hypersonic missiles that might be coming back at these ships. They are fully guided and pretty much impossible to shoot down, with high power warheads on them too that can aim below the water line. The US doesn't have any effective defence against supercavitating torpedoes either.

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    46. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      How about at a guess, the huge amounts of current passing through it, heating it up and vaporising parts of it? The gun isn't going to be sealed at one end like a regular one, otherwise the vacuum produced would cause fresh air to be sucked back in when the projectile exits, keeping the vaporised metal inside and damaging it. If you allow air to be pulled through the barrel the vacuum behind the projectile can pull it out and the inertia of the air can finish the job.

    47. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

      Or a laser version of same, which IIRC they are also working on.

    48. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by mr_mischief · · Score: 1

      Hydrogen _is_ both fuel and air. So is methane (sort of). Oxygen is not fuel. Oxygen is oxidizer. Hence the "oxi" in "oxidizer".

    49. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by oobayly · · Score: 2

      Malory Archer: Because you learned nothing from it.
      Sterling Archer: I learned that "flammable" and "inflammable" mean the same thing.
      Lana Kane: Wait, what?

      I wish I could find a link to the video - I love that series.

    50. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by garyebickford · · Score: 2

      But it's a function of time. Since the projectile traverses the distance in, e.g., 1/5 the time, the gravitational drop (I forget the real term) will only be 1/5 as much.

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    51. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Jarik+C-Bol · · Score: 1

      You get enough oxygen and heat into a situation, and damn near anything will burn. (yay, the fire triangle!)

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    52. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Jarik+C-Bol · · Score: 1

      also known as a fire piston. There is a cool video on youtube of a guy building one entirely out of acrylic, so you can see the ignition inside.

      --
      I've decided to Diversify my Holdings. I've divided my cash between my left and right pockets, instead of all in one.
    53. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Jarik+C-Bol · · Score: 1

      No, its more like a fire piston. https://www.youtube.com/watch?.... Of course, because its so small and moving so slow, the piston has a closed end, but with the railgun, the projectile is moving so quickly that it can simply compress the air ahead of it in the barrel against the other air in the barrel fast enough to cause it to ignite.

      --
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    54. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Savage-Rabbit · · Score: 5, Funny

      Oxygen, it's in the air...

      fine vaporized particles of metal...

      *poof*

      And that, ladies and gentlemen, is a demonstration of what we science nerds like to call 'simple science for senators". The amazing thing about it is that you can actually get billions of dollars in funding using this simplified approach when brilliantly researched and written scientific papers fail miserably. Go figure!?!?

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    55. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by holmstar · · Score: 1

      You need a fuel + oxygen for something to burn. Oxygen doesn't burn by itself. In this case, it's likely that tiny fragments of metal being scraped off of the projectile are the fuel.

    56. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by holmstar · · Score: 1

      The projectile only needs to be conductive (electromagnetic), not ferromagnetic.

    57. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      Instead, you have to store enough energy to fire the thing. I assure you - punching a hole in a capacitor bank charged up to fire one of these will not merely result in an 'arc flash' hazard...

      A capacitor bank can be placed inside armor, or at least inside an enclosed volume, with minimal interfaces - historically, the access needed to transfer ammunition into or out of a magazine has been it's Achilles heel.

    58. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Jarik+C-Bol · · Score: 4, Informative

      The article explains what the major advantages are. Short version, is:

      1. The projectiles are inert blocks of metal by necessity of their design, and yet they strike with enough force to cause incredible destruction on impact. (kinetic energy released as mechanical failure of structure, turning into an explosion) which leads to,

      2. Inert projectiles are safer to transport for the military. (no one has to sleep on a ship full of explosives)

      3. They projectiles are far cheeper to manufacture. (its a block of metal and a sabot, vs the complex things that go into a detonatable round that can be fired a long distance)

      4. The range. 100 mile range on these things means they can engage targets without risking the ship itself as much, which is always a plus in combat.

      5. One guy can operate it. If you ever watch any footage of large naval guns being fired, it tends to be a multi-person operation to load, fire, and work the gun. Less manpower devoted to a single operation is always helpful.

      --
      I've decided to Diversify my Holdings. I've divided my cash between my left and right pockets, instead of all in one.
    59. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by thesupraman · · Score: 4, Informative

      The flight time at mach 7 for 200 miles is about 2.3 minutes, practice your highschool physics and work out how much it drops not allowing for drag.
      (hint: a LOT). That is assuming no loss of speed (which of course would be SIGNIFICANT).

      Which kind of helps, otherwise it could not reach the ground for much of a distance, but hell.. it still needs to be allowed for.

      But even worse, the effect of a crosswind along the trajectory path sums over that time also, and that matters as it is much less predictable.
      This is a kinetic kill vehicle - it needs to hit the target, without terminal guidance. At 200 miles, it simply will not (unless the target it BIG, as in a small
      town..). They will of course try and convince us this is a surgical weapon, however it is not - unless they start using terminal guidance, and good luck getting
      electronics to survive the electromagnetic environment of launch in this thing.

      This will of course allow them to more cheaply scattergun an enemy from a nice safe range - go USA!

    60. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Assmasher · · Score: 1

      No, you don't, there are plenty of things that burn without oxygen simply because there are lots of other oxidizers. Oxygen just happens to be the most common.

      In any case, the combustion being referred to isn't "burning" it is the light emitted by the compressed gasses, and with oxygen being much more exciteable than nitrogen and their being the two most prevalent gases in this scenario, that's what I was referring to. This is what you see from a 'flame' in any case.

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    61. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by vux984 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Why did you disagree with him "um no[...]" and then set out to say exactly why he is right?

      "Now it is true that while traveling at mach 5 the horizontal distance it drops will be much less over a unit of distance traveled than a slower shell,"

      Pretty much exactly what he said.

      "but it is still falling."

      He never said it wasn't. He said 'less affected' not 'not affected'.

      I would be shocked if the targeting computers did not take gravity into account - unless they are skipping the computers and just using the force.

      So now you are mocking him for what he said, after repeating him. Well played.

    62. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      Slap a few zeroes on whatever measure you care to use for the amount of energy involved... it's more than just a little bit of warm oil and smoke.

      --
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    63. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by timothy · · Score: 1

      I interpreted this to mean "because it covers more horizontal distance per second, it suffers less drop in the period of time it takes to reach point B from point A, making a flatter trajectory." Just like w/ faster, flatter bullets from a conventional gun ...

      --
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    64. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by angel'o'sphere · · Score: 1

      Well, that sounds pretty complicated.
      Every projectile, flying ballistic, drops in 1 second the exact same amount.
      Ofc, if it is faster it travels more distance in this second.

      --
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    65. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by confused+one · · Score: 1

      IAA physicist and it's partially the ionization of the air being compressed as the mach 7 projectile leaves the bore, and it's partially plasma from the armature that vaporizes as the massive current pulse pushes though it.

    66. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by RubberDogBone · · Score: 1

      So? Congrats, you have found the enemy ship with the really powerful gun they just fired at yo- yeah it sort of stops being a thought about then.

      There hasn't been ship-to-ship gun battles in decades so nobody knows what it would even be like if opfor went at it with these weapons. But I bet they'd have a pretty good idea where the enemy was even before they fired this thing, and once they did fire it, they'd know for sure they were about to get a headache.

      The real question is, what the heck do they DO about it once they know they're being fired upon by this thing? You do, of course, what you'd do versus a conventional round, which all depends on the tactics being used for that particular battle. Sometimes you take hits for the team, too. So you let the supergun take out some non-critical assets while something more useful or valuable does other work.

      --
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    67. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Jarik+C-Bol · · Score: 1

      Projectile punches through the flames as it exits the barrel and the pressure ahead of it drops? heck, i'm just guessing anyways.

      --
      I've decided to Diversify my Holdings. I've divided my cash between my left and right pockets, instead of all in one.
    68. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by JasperHW · · Score: 1

      Totally agree that it sounds like it will be a scatter gun at range and wildly inaccurate with an unguided projectile, that's not such a big deal in naval combat. The distances are vast and it's not like there's civilians to accidentally hit.

      Naval bombardment of land targets is a whole other story, however.

    69. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      ...there are plenty of things that burn without oxygen simply because there are lots of other oxidizers...

      I do not think that the word "oxidizer" means what you think it does.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    70. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Blaskowicz · · Score: 1

      Being hot is enough of a reason to emit light (see a classic lightbulb, tiny metal threads are heated at around 3000 Kelvin and they don't burn, else the bulb fails).
      In fact, in that weren't true then the flames over an open wood fire wouldn't emit light either. My guess is we have "flames" simply made of hot air when the gun fires, instead of a flame made of combustion products.

    71. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by budgenator · · Score: 1

      OK, hot, yes, but wouldn't they need something combustible to actually erupt into flame? Or what am I missing?

      The answer is PV = nRT the ideal gas law, as the projectile is moving at mach 5 it compresses the air in front of it and when the temperature of the compressed air reaches about 650C it looks like fire, which is gasses at about 650C.

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    72. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Assmasher · · Score: 1

      You mean like Chlorine trifluoride? Lol...

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    73. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      Regarding the background: that is an incredibly high-speed camera, being rotated at a very high speed (think "on a spring")...

      Most probably multiple cameras, prepositioned and synchronized.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    74. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by budgenator · · Score: 1

      Well actually in O2 + Cl2 -> 2ClO, oxygen would be the fuel and chlorine would be the oxidizer.

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    75. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Assmasher · · Score: 1

      Using the term combustion was shortcut to avoiding discussing the details of highly oxygenated plasmas. BTW, oxygen plasmas are yellow, much like flames...

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    76. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by mjwx · · Score: 1

      The range means you can fire it from beyond the horizon, so radar can never spot the firing. The speed means you have no way in hell of dodging it or shooting it down. And the kinetic energy of it means no armor will block it, short of armoring the ship to the point it can't move. Just take aim at the power plant or armory of the other ship and you get a guaranteed kill. I think the key advantage is the inability to be dodged or shot down like a shell, but the range of a missile. Also, I imagine detecting a missile launch is easier then detecting a railgun firing.

      If it's over the horizon, as you say then the projectile must be on a ballistic trajectory in which case it's going to have some inaccuracy. Not exactly a weapon you can use for pinpoint accuracy. You'll be trying just to hit the ship, not a precision strike against the armoury to power plant. There's a reason we eschewed big guns for guided missiles, a guided missile can be directed to hit a vulnerable point and has a significantly higher chance of hitting the target.

      Given the fact that the only big military ships left on the ocean are traditional aircraft carriers and these will get a lot smaller as drones take place of manned strike craft, its unlikely this is going to be useful as an anti-ship weapon. It might be useful to bombard land targets, but you'll need more than one to be more effective than traditional or rocket artillery which will be a hell of a lot more portable.

      As far as detection goes, the firing event isn't the most detectable thing, it's the ship itself. If you've got an over the horizon radar system (like a radar equipped plane) then you'll detect the ship before it fires. If you haven't, firing from over the horizon wont be that detectable (both missiles and ballistic projectiles fired from outside detection range can be traced back to their point of origin, however the missile can change course, so you can fire it at a right angle to the target to prevent it being traced back).

      My question is, what is the power requirements and how big is the actual canon. I wonder this because most navies in the world operate mostly frigates with smallish guns and guided missiles. Could this be fitted to something like the Australian ANZAC class frigate in lieu of the vertical launch system or 54 mm autocannon? What is the recharge time and will it require an extra generator?

      --
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    77. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by budgenator · · Score: 1

      Seems like uranium would be more massive than that at the apparent volume of the projo.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    78. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      No, 2ClO denotes chlorine oxide, not oxygen chloride. So oxygen is still the oxidizing agent. Even with more covalent bonds, oxygen being stronger oxidizing agent, can not be said to being oxidized here.

      Only elemental oxidizing agent stronger than oxygen is fluorine, but I've never heard of oxygen fluoride.

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
    79. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      While any superheated gases can glow visibly, flame has a stricter definition which does not allow your statement to be true. You'll have to redefine flame for that.

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
    80. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 1

      other stuff burns by combining rapidly with oxygen.

      Including oxygen.

      --
      If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
    81. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Mateorabi · · Score: 1

      On it's problematic use as rocket fuel oxidizer: "...the operator is confronted with the problem of coping with a metal-fluorine fire. For dealing with this situation, I have always recommended a good pair of running shoes." -John Drury Clark

      --
      "You saved 1968." - Ms. Valerie Pringle to the crew of Apollo 8

    82. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by j-beda · · Score: 1

      The nitrogen under pressure remains inert, but the oxygen will coumbust at those levels.

      Combustion is when something (rapidly) combines chemically with oxygen. Oxygen gas (molecules of two oxygen atoms) does not combust.

      I would not be too surprised if other parts of the air (N2, H2O vapour, other gasses or particulate crap that might be around) underwent chemical changes due to the sudden shock of being pushed out of the way of the projectile, and some of those things might burn. The projectile seems to have a bunch of packing fall away as it leaves the barrel - maybe some of that stuff burns.

    83. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by blindseer · · Score: 3, Interesting

      traditional aircraft carriers and these will get a lot smaller as drones take place of manned strike craft,

      I also believe aircraft carriers will get smaller but not for the reasons you state. I believe that they will get smaller because there will be a greater reliance on vertical lift aircraft, helicopters and tilt-wings. I also believe that aircraft will get faster and have longer range, allowing for lesser reliance on carriers. The politics of flying through nations that might not like to get involved would be solved with aircraft that fly high enough to be considered orbital, and therefore technically in outer space, and therefore flying above "airspace".

      Much of that is more about the "how" of shrinking aircraft carriers, the "why" is more about economics. Current carriers are big, slow, and very expensive which makes them easy and tempting targets. For the price of one US Navy aircraft carrier the Navy could have four amphibious assault ships, either choice capable of carrying 80+ aircraft. The amphibious assault ships get cheaper by the dozen but the aircraft carriers cannot, there are only a dozen afloat at any given time which makes economies of scale difficult.

      Part of what makes aircraft carriers so expensive is the power plant, nuclear power is expensive. It looks like newer, smaller, safer, reactors which will allow for putting nuclear power in smaller ships, removing the range advantage of the larger aircraft carrier. Addition of jet fuel production systems on board means that they will not need to have oilers come by as often for supplies.

      Smaller, faster, cheaper, and still capable of long term missions would be a great alternative to the super carriers we have now. Easier to defend against cannon fire and missiles, due to smaller size. If one is lost or damaged in battle then the reduction in fighting capability is reduced.

      I believe your description of sea battles are accurate. The cannon fire is not fast or accurate enough to compete with missiles. Rail guns increase the rate of fire, reduce the weight of the ammunition, and reduce the cost, making it a very good alternative to current missiles and cannons. The range and accuracy of the rail guns might not yet compare to that of the missiles but are still a leap in improvement over cannons.

      --
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    84. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Chrisq · · Score: 1

      "he's not famous, he's in famous."

      He's also a becile (as opposed to am imbecile).

    85. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Chrisq · · Score: 1

      But it's a function of time. Since the projectile traverses the distance in, e.g., 1/5 the time, the gravitational drop (I forget the real term) will only be 1/5 as much.

      Maybe not at those speeds, you are approaching orbital velocity at sea level. With no atmosphere gravity would just about keep it level with the ground, curving it around the earth.

    86. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      Not only with oxygen. Chlorine and fluorine oxidize stuff way faster. That is why ClF3 is so much "fun".
      (burns sand, burns concrete, burns water, burns glass, burns workbenches, burns researchers, burns labs, burns buildings. All while emitting nasty fluorine based gasses like large quantities of HF. Fun stuff.)

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
    87. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by benzapp · · Score: 1

      Didn't the US Navy retire heavy artillery? Could that be why the rounds are so expensive?

      --
      I don't read or respond to AC posts
    88. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      F2O2 although the properties are interesting.
      For more on really really dangerous chemicals and why you do not wish to handle them read Ignition!.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
    89. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Assmasher · · Score: 1

      Running shoes sounds 'optimistic' ;)...

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    90. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Assmasher · · Score: 1

      Combustion is when something (rapidly) combines chemically with oxygen. Oxygen gas (molecules of two oxygen atoms) does not combust.

      Yes, I'm guilty of very loosely (as in 'incorrectly') using the term combustion to describe the visual equivalent. I thought it would save me some time, it did not. ;)

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    91. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      While oxygen is the most common oxidizing agent it is not the only one or even the strongest one. Oxidizing just bears a similar name because usually oxygen is the oxidizer. Chlorine is more powerful and fluorine is even stronger than that.
      Some nasty stuff like ClF3 will oxidize with the silicon in sand, expelling the oxygen.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
    92. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by BitZtream · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Brilliantly written papers are ones that explain the subject matter in an understandable way to the target audience.

      You don't send the same paper to theoretical physicist as you send to a senator.

      If you don't realize that, you're not anywhere near as smart and clever as you think you are. Do you expect a guy who's job is politics to REALLY ALSO know all the same shit as the guy who spends his entire life working on the physics of it? Are you really that unaware of the people in the world around you not all knowing what you know?

      You should correct your sig to just say 'I'm an idiot' so its appropriate instead of trying to show everyone else how clever you aren't.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    93. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      No. Oxygen does not oxidize more oxygen.

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    94. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      No they don't.

      Only oxygen can oxidize something, by definition.

      Converting or catalyzing something to oxygen doesn't mean the original component oxidizes, it just means you don't understand chemical reactions.

      --
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    95. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      Oxygen doesn't do shit without fuel, unless you get to the fusion stage, but being that we can't do that with even hydrogen, we're certainly not fusing oxygen on purpose.

      Oxygen under pressures lower than required for fusion won't burn, by definition, it can't. You can't oxidize oxygen any more than it already is.

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    96. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      Which requires oxygen to do anything useful.

      Seriously, look at the reaction process for what you're talking about ... you'll notice there is no reaction without adding oxygen ... in the form of water.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C...

      But hey, don't let basic chemistry stand in your way of looking silly.

      YOU CAN NOT OXIDIZE WITHOUT OXYGEN. LOOK AT THE DEFINITION OF OXIDIZE.

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    97. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Assmasher · · Score: 1

      Oxygen doesn't do shit without fuel

      I guess those electrochemists who study high pressure oxygen plasmas are a bunch of idiots...

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    98. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Alsn · · Score: 1

      You are incorrect. The definition of "oxidation" is contrary to popular belief not "to react with oxygen".

      Oxidation is by definition: A loss of electrons, or an increase in oxidation state.

      What you are referring to is simply *one* example of oxidation and not the entire definition.

    99. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by fellip_nectar · · Score: 1

      No. Oxidation means a gain in oxidation state or the loss of electron(s) by an ion/molecule/atom during any redox reaction - It is not specific to reactions involving Oxygen.

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    100. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Assmasher · · Score: 1

      Seriously, look at the reaction process for what you're talking about ... you'll notice there is no reaction without adding oxygen ... in the form of water.

      Did you even bother to read the article you linked to? LOL. It clearly states that it oxidizes several metals. It then goes on to describe the reaction that you're trying to claim is the only oxidation case. In fact, the article you linked lists at least four chemical oxidations above and beyond those involving metals.

      You seem to only capable of reading about the ones that have to do with water. Rather selective of you.

      But hey, don't let basic chemistry stand in your way of looking silly.

      Don't let basic reading skills stand in your way of looking silly [sic].

      YOU CAN NOT OXIDIZE WITHOUT OXYGEN.

      Yes, you can. The article you linked points this out to you as well.

      LOOK AT THE DEFINITION OF OXIDIZE.

      You appear to be obsessed with the colloquial definition of 'oxidize.' You should check out the formal definition; especially the part that relates it entirely to electron transfer.

      See the stupid people who agree with me:

      http://www.chemguide.co.uk/ino...

      Don't just read the first part (the beginners' definition), read down to the "most important use of the terms oxidation" part...

      Maybe I should have typed that in all caps so you could read it...

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    101. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by MrNiceguy_KS · · Score: 1

      Or a laser version of same, which IIRC they are also working on.

      My understanding of the laser defense systems is that they work by heating the incoming projectile, causing the explosives within the warhead to detonate. As the article mentioned, one advantage of a railgun is that the "warhead" is a chunk of inert metal. So unless your laser is powerful enough to melt something that we already know can withstand air friction at Mach 7...

      --
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    102. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by drainbramage · · Score: 1

      Superheated gases?
      Thought is was called plasma, no?
      Watch a video of a Sprint missile launch from the mid 1970's..
      That little beast went from 0 to Mach 10 in about 5 seconds.

      --
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    103. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by I'm+New+Around+Here · · Score: 1

      I see that now. I guess I was remembering some not-scientifically-valid crime show from a while ago. Or maybe not remembering it correctly. Se la vie.

      Anyway, thanks for not going all chem-professor on me. :^)

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    104. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      Plasma is not a necessity for glowing - typically gases start visibly glowing at lower temperatures than needed to qualify as plasma. So low temperature flames glow without being plasma.

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
    105. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by Chrontius · · Score: 1

      Shore bombardment is totally a thing.

      This lets us do it from a safe range, or with surgical precision --- pick one.

    106. Re:IANA Physicist, So... by ClickOnThis · · Score: 1

      (IAalsoAP) I'd think the EMP can be reasonably mitigated with a timely chaff release, or similar shielding ideas.

      A Faraday Cage built around the rail-gun might help with shielding. I'm not sure how chaff would help in that regard, unless the pieces of chaff are comparable to or larger than the majority of the wavelengths in the EMP's power-spectrum.

      However, I'm wondering about the path of the projectile. The thing is hypersonic, the path will be superheated - that might ionize the air. And ionized air *will* show up on radar. You have a 200 mile trajectory pointing right back at the launch site. Don't worry if you miss a few miles here and there, or even if the launch site is beyond your horizon.

      Excellent point. We've been bouncing radio waves off ionized gases (aka plasmas) since the time of Marconi.

      --
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  3. Power? by asmkm22 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Can it be efficiently powered, though? It always seemed like the power draw was the main issue with these kinds of guns, effectively limiting them to a few shots.

    1. Re:Power? by Ryyuajnin · · Score: 2

      Future Aircraft Carrier, USS-Nikola, to be constructed primarily of Lithium-Ion Batteries.

    2. Re:Power? by PortHaven · · Score: 2

      New cruisers and carriers just coming out were spec'd to have 3x-6x power generation. New carriers are getting rid of steam catapults in lieu of railgun catapults as well.

    3. Re:Power? by alexander_686 · · Score: 1

      Yes. It is going to be powered by (indirectly) by diesel, which is flexible – in the sense that it is widely available, can be used for lots of things, etc. It does not have its own oxidizer, so it is safer to handle, has higher energy density, etc. So a single ship could fire more rounds at a lower cost than a traditional big gun battle ship.

      Energy is not the issue – it is the rate of fire. Diesel engines power the supper capacitors, they discharge to fire the gun, and then fill them up again. I have read that this cycle might be measured in minutes instead of seconds. How big of an issue that it will be is a big question.

    4. Re:Power? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      AFAIK most large non-nuclear USN ships are turbo-electric, which means they have some huge generators. The Ford class carriers (and the F-35 for that matter) are also being designed to be able to generate huge amounts of electric power. The Navy is making serious efforts to future-proof their toys with regards to the expected huge energy requirements of future weapon systems.

    5. Re:Power? by gstoddart · · Score: 4, Funny

      No, you're mistaken ... that's the USS-Nokia. ;-)

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    6. Re:Power? by saider · · Score: 2

      The catapults (EMALS) are not railguns, they are essentially linear motors. As I understand they use different effects to operate.

      --


      Remember, You are unique...just like everyone else.
    7. Re:Power? by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Source?

      I would think these would be a much more natural fit for nuclear-powered vessels, where the capacitors can be recharged far more quickly. Not that I doubt they'll be used in other scenarios as well, but for high firing rates you'll want *real* power.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    8. Re:Power? by dkf · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Energy is not the issue – it is the rate of fire. Diesel engines power the supper capacitors, they discharge to fire the gun, and then fill them up again. I have read that this cycle might be measured in minutes instead of seconds. How big of an issue that it will be is a big question.

      That depends on how many capacitor banks you've got, yes? Or possibly the sustained power output of the generators, though that's perhaps more of an issue for sustained firing. (Naval ships are pretty big; you can fit a lot of capacitors and generators in there.)

      What I'm impressed at is that they can fire the railgun multiple times instead of needing to strip it down and rebuild it each time. That was always the problem with the early railguns; they'd be fine firing once but after that would be so burned up from the currents that they'd be unable to take a second shot on any reasonable timescale. They were cool, but not practical weapons. I'm guessing that that must've been solved, and the result is that pure kinetic weaponry starts to make sense again for ship-level encounters.

      --
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    9. Re:Power? by benjfowler · · Score: 1

      Or bloody huge supercapacitors, as it were.

    10. Re:Power? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The main issue was not power, although a big part of it. It was in essence, wear and tear; the damage done to the barrel with each firing.

    11. Re:Power? by Solandri · · Score: 5, Informative

      23 lbs = 10.5 kg
      Mach 7 = 5300 mph = 2382 m/s
      KE = 0.5mv^2 = 59.6 MJ

      The ship in question has four 9100 kW diesel engines (12,200 hp).

      Assuming you have a big enough capacitor, the output from just one diesel engine should be enough to power a round every 6.5 seconds. There are conversion and efficiency losses, so probably every 15-20 seconds is more realistic.

      Also note that 59.6 MJ is about equivalent to 14 kilos of TNT. So the energy yield of this will be on the order of a high explosive round from a 5 inch shell (which weighs about 30 kg), assuming the projectile doesn't pass entirely through the target.

    12. Re:Power? by Solandri · · Score: 1

      Whoops, left out the 0.5 in the KE calcs. Divide the times by 2.

    13. Re:Power? by lbmouse · · Score: 3, Funny

      C'mon! you just ruined it for me. I wanted to see an F-18 get launched off a carrier deck at mach 7.

    14. Re:Power? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      No, we sold that one to the Chinese.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    15. Re:Power? by operagost · · Score: 1

      With a name like that, it will be indestructible.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    16. Re:Power? by TuringCheck · · Score: 1

      Whoops, left out the 0.5 in the KE calcs. Divide the times by 2.

      You also left out efficiency and sabot mass so maybe multiply the times by some amount.

    17. Re:Power? by rjstanford · · Score: 1

      Diesel engines power the supper capacitors

      I always thought that a bunch of hard-working 18yo guys had more than enough supper capacity, even when just powered by slop and beer.

      --
      You're special forces then? That's great! I just love your olympics!
    18. Re:Power? by avandesande · · Score: 1

      Not sure if the Navy design uses one but they can be powered with a compulsator as well.

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
    19. Re:Power? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      You need massive banks of capacitors to store and then discharge that energy very rapidly. There is going to be a lot of heat generated. The lifetime of the capacitors and heat dissipation ability are probably the limiting factors.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    20. Re:Power? by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

      IIRC I thought the army already had tested one of these on a modified Abrams?

    21. Re:Power? by rtaylor · · Score: 1

      The largest diesel ship engines can kick out 80MW of power (100,000 hp) which is right in the middle of the marine nuclear range (40MW to 100MW is common).

      The main benefit to nukes, as currently used on surface ships, is the size of the fuel tank.

      --
      Rod Taylor
    22. Re:Power? by Prien715 · · Score: 1

      ...but everyone knows the USS Nokia is a burning platform.

      --
      -- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
    23. Re:Power? by BradMajors · · Score: 1

      It won't be travelling at Mach 7 after it has travelled 100 miles to the target.

    24. Re:Power? by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 1

      You need massive banks of capacitors to store and then discharge that energy very rapidly. There is going to be a lot of heat generated. The lifetime of the capacitors and heat dissipation ability are probably the limiting factors.

      On the plus side, you're floating on top of a very large, very agreeable heat sink.

    25. Re:Power? by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      KE = 0.5mv^2 = 59.6 MJ

      By way of comparison, a shell from a 16" naval gun weighs in at about 400MJ. Those shells could also pack about half a ton of high explosives, making the total energy delivery about 2.5GJ.

      Interestingly, in some WWII naval enconuters where some unarmoured escort (basically unarmoured converted merchant shipts) carriers were engaged at extreme range, the AP shells passed all the way through without triggering the explosives inside and did little damage.

      Similar things have been observed with the DU anti-tank rounds. They pass through lightly armoured vehicles causing surprisingly little damage.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    26. Re:Power? by idontgno · · Score: 1

      I remember hearing a proposal that the barrel (or rail) would be magazine-fed along with the armature and round. Kinda defeats the probable space/weight advantages over a chemically-propelled round, but at least you don't have tons of explosive propellants in the magazine.

      I don't know how serious the proposal was. But it would solve the rate-of-fire issue.

      --
      Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
    27. Re:Power? by nickersonm · · Score: 1

      I recall reading that at least one of the two models to be tested soon has easily-replaceable rails that need to be changed every few shots.

    28. Re:Power? by El+Puerco+Loco · · Score: 1

      It's basically an electric version of the Abrams tank main gun. Similar projectile of around the same weight, but the Abrams can only fire it at around Mach 5.

    29. Re:Power? by Chrontius · · Score: 1

      If we're going to give them all Aegis radars, they're going to need a lot of that juice for active sensors, the computers to run them, and the cooling to keep both from melting.

  4. Shoot The Moon! by Ryyuajnin · · Score: 1

    It'd be worth the court marshal...

    1. Re:Shoot The Moon! by swaq · · Score: 1

      Mach 7 is about 1/5th of the way to escape velocity, at least.

    2. Re:Shoot The Moon! by Marc_Hawke · · Score: 1

      No, you just have to get it out of the atmosphere and aimed right. I'm pretty sure mach 7 is good enough for 'escape velocity'.

      --
      --Welcome to the Realm of the Hawke--
    3. Re:Shoot The Moon! by jerquiaga · · Score: 1

      Not quite. Mach 7 is 2.38 km/s, and escape velocity is about 11 km/s.

    4. Re:Shoot The Moon! by kenaaker · · Score: 3, Informative
      Escape velocity is Mach 33, 11.2 kilometers/second, orbital velocity is Mach 25, 7.7 kilometers/second.

      It's got a ways to go.

    5. Re:Shoot The Moon! by nospam007 · · Score: 1

      "Escape velocity is Mach 33, 11.2 kilometers/second, orbital velocity is Mach 25, 7.7 kilometers/second.

      It's got a ways to go."

      The navy will secretly transport it to the moon, there the speed will be enough.

    6. Re:Shoot The Moon! by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      you're committing the sin of Jules Verne which he later used as plot device in second part of his moon journey novel. A ballistic flight from gun inside the atmosphere will lose a great deal of energy to the atmosphere, and so projectile needs *more* velocity than a rocket continuing to accelerate to needed velocity outside the atmosphere

    7. Re:Shoot The Moon! by rjstanford · · Score: 4, Funny

      The navy will secretly transport it to the moon, there the speed will be enough.

      Yes, but who're you going to crew it with, convicts? They'll just build another one and throw rocks at us.

      --
      You're special forces then? That's great! I just love your olympics!
    8. Re:Shoot The Moon! by Talderas · · Score: 1

      Using the children?

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    9. Re:Shoot The Moon! by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      You forgot about gravity. Escape velocity at sea level is around Mach 33. Obviously you don't need to completely escape Earth's gravity, since at the distance of the moon you're still within its effect.
      You do have to add extra speed to account for air friction though, which at that speed is considerable.
      I tried googling the gravitational energy difference between sea level and the Moon's orbit but got distracted and found this quote

      a simple calculation based on a 1-kilogram cubic projectile launched at a muzzle velocity of 39,600 KPH at sea level shows that it will lose 20% of its velocity and a good part of its ablative thermal protection in the first 16 meters of flight.

      16 metres is pretty short compared to the 100km of atmosphere you need to get through.

      Basically, if you can shoot something out of the atmosphere, it'll just orbit Earth. It's never been done before and never even been tried.

  5. "Low Cost" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Would any of our resident physicists care to compare the "cost" in terms of energy for firing the railgun vs firing shells with conventional guns? Just curious.

    1. Re:"Low Cost" by PortHaven · · Score: 4, Informative

      Railgun $25,000 a round versus $1,000,000 a round for missiles.

      Cost on just purely physics level, is rather irrelevant. It is economics that are the limiting factor.

    2. Re:"Low Cost" by WilliamGeorge · · Score: 1

      It isn't built to compare with cannons / guns, which our naval ships no longer use for ship to ship or ship to shore engagement. It is designed to replace or augment missiles, and the cost of the round fired is ~$25k which is an order of magnitude or two less than similar-ranged missile technology.

      --
      William George
    3. Re:"Low Cost" by garyebickford · · Score: 1

      I'll add that I just read that 155mm rounds cost $50,000 each. So it's even cheaper than conventional artillery.

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    4. Re:"Low Cost" by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      So, while a ship might fire 2 or 3 missiles in an engagement, they can fire hundreds of these...

    5. Re:"Low Cost" by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      How does the rail gun range compare to the "big" conventional guns. I know the conventionals can take out bridges 100 miles inland.

    6. Re:"Low Cost" by Talderas · · Score: 1

      The big guns on battleships in WW2 had around a 20-25 mile range. Land based artillery guns cap out at just under 20 miles. Rockets are much longer though but they're not kinetic weaponry.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    7. Re:"Low Cost" by schlachter · · Score: 1

      and that ratio will lead us to fire on 40x the number of targets next time around rather than the lowering of the budget.

      --
      My God can beat up your God. Just kidding...don't take offense. I know there's no God.
    8. Re:"Low Cost" by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      I seem to remember stories of "ships offshore" during Vietnam firing something like a 16" gun to take out bridges 80+ miles inland... Could be distorting something, too lazy to Wikipedia right now.

    9. Re:"Low Cost" by garyebickford · · Score: 1

      I've seen numbers up to 200 miles, vs. typically 30-40 miles for conventional rounds.

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    10. Re:"Low Cost" by steveha · · Score: 1

      I'm wondering if the $25,000 round is inert, or if it includes guidance.

      The Navy has been talking about railgun projectiles with GPS guidance. All it would take is movable steering fins and a computer to drive them.

      http://www.wired.com/2012/08/guided-supersonic-bullets/

      No matter how good your targeting computers are, I think you need active guidance any time you are talking about a 100-mile range.

      If I have done my math correctly, it will take about 67 seconds for a Mach 7 projectile to travel 100 miles (and that's assuming constant speed, not accounting for drag). That's a long time for a free-flying projectile to be subject to random winds.

      Of course I'm not a physicist or ballistics expert. If I have made a mistake here, please let me know.

      --
      lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
    11. Re:"Low Cost" by volmtech · · Score: 2

      Ex Vietnam era Navy Vet. The "shell" fired is part rocket. This extends the range but uses a smaller warhead. They even had a small version for the 5 in guns my destroyer carried.

    12. Re:"Low Cost" by niftymitch · · Score: 2

      I'll add that I just read that 155mm rounds cost $50,000 each. So it's even cheaper than conventional artillery.

      Citation please.

      The new GPS radar guided Excalibur perhaps. But no a standard HE round.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M...

      The max range of a 155 round is a lot shorter than some are indicating.
      16000 yards or about 9 miles for the howitzer. It is necessary to
      not confuse naval guns with army howitzers. Since I am an Army guy
      I will not worry about naval guns beyond acknowledging that "guns" have
      longer range but the max is about 23 miles.

      Rail guns are interesting as kinetic weapons. The projectile must be
      something dense and durable. One guess would be tungsten, or tungsten carbide, depleted
      uranium perhaps. Depleted uranium amo is commonly jacketed with gliding metal to protect
      the barrel for sure. I wonder if U has sufficient strength as is for a rail gun acceleration profile.

      There is a big gap between modern guns ~25 miles and cruise missiles, both range and cost.
      Perhaps this is the true goal of a rail gun.

            http://www.g2mil.com/8inchguns...

      --
      Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
    13. Re:"Low Cost" by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      The navy no longer uses cannons/guns for ship to ship or ship to shore? Guess they should remove the two 30mm guns from the Littoral then. Oh, and what's that on the DDX?...oh yes, a 155mm "Advanced Gun System".

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    14. Re:"Low Cost" by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      Depleted uranium has the tendency to ignite with air at 700 ÂC. It may be so that the compression heating from the speed exceeds that temperature. In that case the projectile may turn into a nice cloud of poisonous uranium oxide. On your ship.

      In short: I'd advise a tungsten coating around the uranium if they go that way. The hull of the target ship will strip away the tungsten. The friction will make it exceed 700 ÂC. The scientists working on this probably already know that.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
    15. Re:"Low Cost" by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      That explains it... all I ever heard were "big shells," assumed they were simple artillery.

    16. Re:"Low Cost" by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      Of course, the navy has all kinds of places on aircraft carriers for machining parts, so it's not out of reason that they could refurbish the rails / barrels while at sea.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
    17. Re:"Low Cost" by WilliamGeorge · · Score: 1

      Tiny cannons on a close-to-shore (littoral) ship are a bit different. We don't have battleships and cruisers with massive cannons anymore, though, like we did in WWI / WWII. The last time a battleship shelled an on-shore location - or fired its main guns in combat at all, so far as I am aware - was back in the Kuwait war in 1991.

      Yes, we (the US) have *one* ship now with a serious cannon system... but even it is more like artillery than a traditional ship cannon, from my limited understanding.

      --
      William George
    18. Re:"Low Cost" by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      Okay, well your original comment didn't say anything about battleship artillery, and I'll agree that there's nothing similar for shore bombardment anymore. With respect to ship to ship, your comment didn't hold water.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    19. Re:"Low Cost" by WilliamGeorge · · Score: 1

      When I was talking about ship to ship, I mean if one of our destroyers or cruisers had to engage a similar class of ship from an opposing navy. They would not come alongside at a few miles distance and lob shells at eachother anymore - even if equipped with cannons of some kind. They would fire cruise missiles from many miles away, and hopefully counter any opposing missiles with point defense guns or interceptor missiles. That is what I meant when I said we don't use cannons for ship vs ship combat these days.

      If you instead mean do we fire smaller caliber cannons at fast, tiny boats from pirates or terrorists - then yes, we absolutely still do use guns for that... but it is hardly real ship to ship naval combat at that point. The rail guns we have been testing for years, and which the article talks about, bring back the option of direct capital ship vs capital ship combat (at extreme ranges, too) as well as countering incoming missiles and bombarding shore positions.

      --
      William George
    20. Re:"Low Cost" by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Around WWII, the greatest distance a battleship ever hit another ship was about 15 statute (normal) miles away. The guns could fire much further, in particular the Japanese went for long range, but hitting another ship with a minute's shell flight proved difficult.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  6. More Testing to Come! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I hear they're going to be testing this on the Fox Archipelago off the coast of Alaska. I hope everything works out and that this doesn't have any nuclear proliferation implications at all.

  7. SWATH, not Catamaran by n1ywb · · Score: 4, Informative

    It's a "Small-waterplane-area twin hull" or SWATH, not a catamaran. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...

    --
    -73, de n1ywb
    www.n1ywb.com
    1. Re:SWATH, not Catamaran by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 2

      Potato, potahto.

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    2. Re:SWATH, not Catamaran by Solandri · · Score: 2

      Hydrodynamically, they are completely different. A catamaran's hulls displace water at the surface (and below). Its drag consists of both friction and waves generated by that displacement. A SWATH gets buoyancy from completely submerged hulls and minimal distortion of the surface. In the ideal case (hulls are sufficiently submerged), its drag consists entirely of friction.

      Normally a SWATH design is used on slow-moving ships where stability is paramount (having the buoyancy underwater means your ship does not rock in waves). At low speeds, it takes more power to move a SWATH than a same-size catamaran because it has greater friction drag - a semicircle can enclose the same area as a circle but using less circumference. But because of the near-elimination of wave drag, it should perform better at intermediate speeds. e.g. Submarines are not able to travel as fast on the surface as they can underwater due to wave drag. (At extremely high speed, wave drag tends to decrease because the frequency of your disturbance no longer matches the frequency of waves, so the hull becomes "less efficient" at generating waves.)

    3. Re:SWATH, not Catamaran by chasm22 · · Score: 1

      Thanks Larry E.

  8. Incom.... by TFlan91 · · Score: 2

    "They are firing, sir!"
    "Prepare the counte...."

    Seriously... 100 mile range? At 5000mph? That range doesn't add up to me, but regardless, whoever is on the receiving end of this bad boy doesn't stand a chance to defend themselves

    1. Re:Incom.... by Talderas · · Score: 1

      The big guns on the Iowa were about a 25 mile range and were fired at just over 2,000mph. The projectile weighed between 1,900 and 2,700 pounds (compared to the 23 in the railgun).

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    2. Re:Incom.... by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Air resistance is a bitch at mach speeds, I doubt that round is going anywhere close to 5000mph after going through 100 miles of air.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    3. Re:Incom.... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      The big guns on the Iowa were also big bore. These are more aerodynamic, allowing longer glide.

    4. Re:Incom.... by nojayuk · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Smaller diameter projectiles have more drag per unit mass and slow down faster due to air resistance. It's called their ballistic coefficient.

      The practice for howitzer-like weapons like railguns is to fire their projectiles in a high arc to get them out of thick atmosphere as fast as possible to reduce air friction. They still won't hit their target at anything like their muzzle velocity even after they recover some kinetic energy on the way back down to target from the top of their parabolic arc.

      The ballistically efficient shells from the late-model 15" US Naval rifles had a muzzle velocity of about 3500 feet/second and a flight time to target at maximum range (25 miles or so) of a couple of minutes. Their velocity at impact was half that of their muzzle velocity. I don't see these railgun projectiles achieving anything like that performance as drag increases roughly as the square of velocity and their ballistic coefficient will be a lot less.

    5. Re:Incom.... by nojayuk · · Score: 1

      Ballistic coefficient is dependent on the surface area of the projectile and its mass and a big heavy projectile with the same muzzle velocity as a small light projectile will retain more velocity all the way to the target. A .223 bullet will lose about 200 m/s of its original muzzle velocity over a distance of 300 metres. A similarly-shaped but larger and heavier .50BMG bullet with a similar muzzle velocity will lose about 80 m/s over the same distance, according to Hornady ballistics tables. If you've done any large-calibre shooting you'll know something like a .50BMG will carry a lot further than a .223.

    6. Re:Incom.... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      I understand speed matters more than shape, but there does appear to be aerodynamic considerations for ballistics as well. Spire/Spitzer and a boat-tail seems a common requirement. And the weight can be increased as needed (And as technology allows) with nothing that prevents a weight approaching the 15" guns in a smaller, more aerodynamic shape (of course, to be both smaller and heavier would require special materials.

      Also I note that the usual shape for bullets is not a ball, as they started out, but has evolved to a more aerodynamic shape. I'm sure the guys spending billions working on it have considered it.

    7. Re:Incom.... by nojayuk · · Score: 1

      Modern large-calibre artillery shells usually have base-bleed which coverts them effectively into a full boat-tail configuration in flight by filling in the space at the base of the shell with hot gas. They're actually more efficient than the best rifle bullets in this regard.

      I can't find this information on the web but has anyone actually fired a railgun projectile over the sorts of distances described in the goshwow articles and promotional bumpf designed to get more funding out of Congress? Has there actually been a 100-mile ballistic test of this system yet? 50-mile? 10?

      The movies I've seen of railgun test firings have all been straight-line non-ballistic shots over a few dozen metres demonstrating the sort of armour penetration capabilities DU spears fired by 120mm smoothbores have been able to achieve for decades. I recall reading about folks experimenting with high-velocity wildcat rifles (.30 cal bullets in necked-down .50BMG cases and the like) who ran into problems with solid projectiles melting from air friction at muzzle velocities of only 4000fps (less than Mach 4) over a range of a few hundred metres. It's entirely possible a railgun round would vapourise if fired several kilometres through sea-level air at Mach 7. Not something, of course, a slower seaskimming Tomahawk missile has problems with even though it can fly seven times farther than this railgun can fire, can alter course, is terminally guided and can even carry EW jamming kit.

    8. Re:Incom.... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      The last time the USN deployed 15" guns was on monitors during the civil war. Do you mean 16"? Muzzle velocity on those was well under 3000 fps. Or do you mean 5"?

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    9. Re:Incom.... by nojayuk · · Score: 1

      Ballistic coefficient varies with shape too but generally it's dependent on mass and size. A .223 bullet and a .50BMG bullet are similar in shape and muzzle velocity but the .50MBG goes a lot further because it loses speed less quickly than the smaller round. It still can't fly as far as a battleship gun round though even if it's a better shape.

      As for drag, well we have worked examples of clean shapes flying at high speeds. The SR-71 flying at Mach 3 glowed a dull red from skin friction and that was at 80,000 feet where the air pressure is something like 0.5 lbs/square inch or 3% that at sea level. Drag and skin heating effect goes up as the square of the speed so the railgun dart at sea level and Mach 7 would experience something like 4 x 30 or more than a hundred times the amount of drag the SR-71 experienced, and the railgun dart doesn't have engines pushing it along and sustaining its velocity in flight.

      BTW I was wrong about the late-model US battleship guns, the perils of working from memory rather than checking the numbers. Their muzzle velocity was similar to most rifles, about 2700 fps and they were of course 16" bore.

  9. EVE Online by war4peace · · Score: 2

    That's not even a 75mm railgun size. Can I fit it on my Velator? :)

    --
    ...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
    1. Re:EVE Online by osu-neko · · Score: 1

      Maybe... but Gallente ships prefer with melee-range weapons. :p

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
  10. How often can they fire? by aliquis · · Score: 1

    As in can it shot down missiles or not? And if so which ones?

  11. HOT HOT HOT! by TiggertheMad · · Score: 2

    Just speculation but, when you propel something to mach 7, friction becomes a real issue. The SR-71 had a titanium body if I recall correctly, to help deal with temperatures it encountered at Mach 3. It is quite possible that the projectile is very hot and is igniting materials that have lower ignition temperatures.

    --

    HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
    1. Re:HOT HOT HOT! by Immerman · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I suspect it's compression rather than friction doing most of the heating. Much like an orbital reentry vehicle - the gas within the shockwave starts to glow long before it contacts the vehicle itself.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    2. Re:HOT HOT HOT! by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

      Apparently it also leaked fuel when it was cold, because to account for the expansion at the high temperatures experienced in flight everything had to be loose fitting.

    3. Re:HOT HOT HOT! by Jarik+C-Bol · · Score: 1

      I suspect it is essentially acting like a giant fire piston. https://www.youtube.com/watch?... [youtube.com]. Of course, because its so small and moving so slow, the piston has a closed end, but with the railgun, the projectile is moving so quickly that it can simply compress the air ahead of it in the barrel against the other air in the barrel fast enough to cause it to ignite.

      --
      I've decided to Diversify my Holdings. I've divided my cash between my left and right pockets, instead of all in one.
    4. Re:HOT HOT HOT! by davewoods · · Score: 1

      The fuel leaking has nothing to do with the heat/fire/light around it.

  12. Almost lunar escape velocity... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    2.38 km/s or 5324 mph. In vacuum and lunar gravity, this probably do it. Put it on the moon, solar power it, change out the shell with buckets with high-g transponders and Gerald O'Neil's vision of a mass driver to throw moon stuff to build a L5 colony is a reality! IMHO, it's much higher priority that any mission to Mars. Or restarting the fracking Cold War.

    1. Re:Almost lunar escape velocity... by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      For lunar launch applications, a much better option would probably be a long open rail. You're not size-limited.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    2. Re:Almost lunar escape velocity... by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      I'm guessing it takes a shload more energy to accelerate something of useful size to lunar escape velocity than a 26 pound chunk of dense metal specifically formed to be shot at Mach 7.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
  13. Re:space requirements and fire rate by Amtrak · · Score: 1

    Since the navy already runs nuclear reactors on ships I don't think they are that worried about them. However, the capacitor bank exploding could be interesting. I guess they would have to put it somewhere armored on the ship. I would also think that they might have trouble providing cooling for all the electrical equipment as well.

  14. Finally.... by PortHaven · · Score: 1

    We can take on kaiju...

    1. Re:Finally.... by ketomax · · Score: 1

      We can take on kaiju...

      Category 1 only

    2. Re:Finally.... by davewoods · · Score: 1

      This was really my only thought after reading through all of these comments. It appears to be of little use due to the impracticality of it. But it would very quickly take down a kaiju, godzilla, aliens, etc...

  15. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Z00L00K · · Score: 2

    Mount a downsized version on the A10.

    --
    If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
  16. Finally by bitt3n · · Score: 5, Funny

    At last the US Navy, for so long the joke of the high seas, will become a force to be reckoned with.

    1. Re:Finally by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      At last, the US Navy, for so long the consumer of more tax dollars than NASA by some crazy high multiple, can be just as effective, but with a lower economic burden.

    2. Re:Finally by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You laugh, but Vietnam would have been a different story, if we had these when facing off to the battleships of the fierce Viet Cong Navy.
       

  17. Aiming and targeting? by mveloso · · Score: 1

    With these sort of weapons, how does the navy effectively target something? It's ridiculous to think the Navy would be targeting say, a truck. Would they just stay offshore and throw these at a building or something?

    1. Re:Aiming and targeting? by alexander_686 · · Score: 1

      IIRC, the shells will have a guidance system that will allow them to be guided, which is something that they will need if they plan on hitting a moving target – it does take over a minute for the shell to travel 100+ miles – the target will not be in the place where it was when the shell was launched.

    2. Re:Aiming and targeting? by AxeTheMax · · Score: 1

      They'll target them the same way the USAF targeted the Vietcong with B52 bombers. Fire them in the general direction of the other side, and hope some hit their targets. Doesn't really matter if they hit lots of civilians instead, there's a well established formula to get away with it - have some evidence (or even just claims) that in the right conditions it might catch some combatants.

    3. Re:Aiming and targeting? by JoeMerchant · · Score: 2

      Depends, is the target a bridge or a building?

      Striking moving targets from 100 mile range is ballsy, even for the Navy.

    4. Re:Aiming and targeting? by silas_moeckel · · Score: 1

      They have much much bigger ballistic weapons to shore bombardment, they throw several ton's a pretty good distance. On the other hand trowing something where you expect something to be when it gets there is doable. If it can make slight course corrections even better. They do not talk about cyclic rates but they do say as a replacement for missiles. So you talking about other navel vessels so under 60 mph without any warning.

      --
      No sir I dont like it.
    5. Re:Aiming and targeting? by niftymitch · · Score: 1

      IIRC, the shells will have a guidance system that will allow them to be guided, which is something that they will need if they plan on hitting a moving target – it does take over a minute for the shell to travel 100+ miles – the target will not be in the place where it was when the shell was launched.

      And the earth rotates too. Long range gunnery is hard.

      --
      Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
    6. Re:Aiming and targeting? by dcw3 · · Score: 2

      Depends. How far can your target move in that time. Likely, less than a mile, and since ships don't turn on a dime, they're highly likely to be proceeding on a vector over the coarse of the projectile's flight. So, just like duck hunting, you aim in front of them appropriately, only with computers doing the math for you.

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    7. Re:Aiming and targeting? by dcw3 · · Score: 1

      Really? Care to name a time since Vietnam when USAF has done that?

      --
      Just another day in Paradise
    8. Re:Aiming and targeting? by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      Luckily the shell rotates together with the planet. Although I can't imagine that that makes it easy.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
    9. Re:Aiming and targeting? by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

      Runways capable of launching military and logistics aircraft don't move that much, and I imagine one of these would crater a runway pretty nicely.

      Bridges don't move very much either. Nor radar sites.

      --
      Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
  18. Holy shit by EmagGeek · · Score: 1

    23lb = 10.43kg
    5000mph = 2235m/s

    1/2 * m * v^2 > 26 MJ

    Put into perspective, 26MJ / 3600s ~= 7.2kWh, or about $1 worth of electricity.

    How much does 100lbs of black powder cost? (or however much they use to launch shells from battleships?)

    I see a huge cost saving for the military depending on how many shells they fire every year in training.

    1. Re:Holy shit by Whorhay · · Score: 2

      I likely takes a lot more electricity than that because the rail gun isn't going to be very energy efficient. I think I saw a large bank of capacitors in the background of the indoor photo. You wouldn't need such large capacitors, or so many of them, if it was only using 7.2kWh. Also the railgun is also firing a sabot of some sort that contains the 23 pound projectile. Regardless the article already pointed out that it is far cheaper to shoot than the chemically propelled shells. What I really want to see though is impact testing, I want to see things disintegrating explosively as a result of being hit by this thing.

    2. Re:Holy shit by garyebickford · · Score: 1

      There's some video of one of these penetrating a 12 inch thick armor plate. IIRC it was still supersonic coming out the back side.

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    3. Re:Holy shit by elementai · · Score: 1

      Even if it has tremendous armor piercing qualities, you still have to hit something important with it then. In order words it has to transfer all it's energy to the target.

  19. Mach 7? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 5, Funny

    Well, judging form the pictures, this is the one disposable razor I wouldn't want to be shaved with.

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
    1. Re:Mach 7? by cold+fjord · · Score: 1

      Well you do need to use shaving cream if you want to avoid razor burn.

      --
      much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
    2. Re:Mach 7? by nitehawk214 · · Score: 3, Funny

      In Soviet Russia, mach 7 razor disposes of YOU.

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
  20. Is the propulsion truely just magnetic? by AdamHarrison · · Score: 1

    The the projectile leaves the barrel, it is with a fiery explosion behind it. If this is from a rail gun, shouldn't the projectile be push purely by magnetic force, and there be no flames from the barrel?

  21. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Immerman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The railgun might fit, but where are you going to put the nuclear reactor to power it?

    --
    --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
  22. Both GA and BAE Railguns will be Tested by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    Not to nitpick (well.....yah, I'm nitpicking), but both General Atomics and BAE Systems Railguns will be tested on the USNS Millinocket. BAE Systems actually got the Phase II contract, whereas General Atomics did not.

    Link: http://breakingdefense.com/2014/04/navys-magnetic-super-gun-to-make-mach-7-shots-at-sea-in-2016-adm-greenert/

    Full Disclosure: I nearly got to work on the GA RailGun system and I know some people who are on it. It's a better design than the BAE one but BAE got the contract.

    1. Re:Both GA and BAE Railguns will be Tested by Gogo0 · · Score: 1

      three possibilities:
      1. the BAE one costs more and we have cash to burn before the FY ends
      2. the BAE one costs less and we didnt burn enough cash last FY
      3. BAE has its hooks in the DoD (at least we know this one is true)

  23. Intercontinental ballistic railgun emplacements by mdsolar · · Score: 1

    Intercontinental ballistic railgun emplacements may end up replacing nuclear ICBMs since a patterned barrage may be more effective, particularly for excavating bunkers to decapitate command and control. The ground penetration problem may soon be licked and the Iranian nuclear threat can be settled through negotiations from a position of strength. Nice work Dalgren!

    1. Re:Intercontinental ballistic railgun emplacements by Talderas · · Score: 1

      The range would need to be significantly upgraded to support intercontinental for America.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    2. Re:Intercontinental ballistic railgun emplacements by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Wait a minute. Wouldn't an "intercontinental railgun" (with inert kinetic projectiles, I assume?) face the same problem the "rods from god" would? They wouldn't even have nearly that much weight, further exacerbating the real-world utility problem.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    3. Re:Intercontinental ballistic railgun emplacements by mdsolar · · Score: 1

      I think that is where the barrage helps. My guess is that a under a thousand rounds of these hitting in the same place could give you Barringer Crater. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M... A spaced based system probably could not deliver in that way since you'd probably use rockets to get the mass to orbit instead of this more efficient method.

    4. Re:Intercontinental ballistic railgun emplacements by rts008 · · Score: 1

      I have wondered that same thing from the beginning.

      I was thinking they would only be used more along 'line of sight' ranges.

      "Line of sight' very loosely defined here! It would still have high velocity at ranges that are occluded by the 'over the horizon' ranges.
      Maybe more accurate to call it 'follows Earth's Curvature', or something.

      It would be useful info to know what the projectile's velocity is at the stated 100 mile range, to enable calculations for remaing energy.

      I know from long range target shooting that projectiles slow down fast.
      ex:
      a .308 Winchester firing a 150 grain bullet at 2750 feet per second will be travelling less than 1000 fps after only 1000 yards, and remaing energy is far less than at muzzle velocity.
      With a 100 yard 'sight in', that same bullet is striking the target about 10 feet below point of aim at around that 1000 yards, and a 10 mile per hour crosswind will deflect it around 2 feet, IIRC.(fuzzy on that memory)

      --
      Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
    5. Re:Intercontinental ballistic railgun emplacements by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      Probably would work better if the emplacements were on the Moon.

    6. Re:Intercontinental ballistic railgun emplacements by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      That .308 bullet, however, doesn't have a ballistic coefficient anywhere near the one that a sub-caliber cannon projectile has.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    7. Re:Intercontinental ballistic railgun emplacements by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      Nah, the terrorist would attack during a new moon.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
  24. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by alexborges · · Score: 1

    Whats the recoil on this thing?

    --
    NO SIG
  25. Another railgun proposal... by floobedy · · Score: 1

    I recall a proposal (at this point very hypothetical) to have a huge railgun arranged in a loop, which would be situated somewhere in the continental US. The projectile would go around and around in the railgun loop, accelerating each time, like a slingshot, until it's flung out toward the target. The projectiles would go so fast that they'd fly out into orbit before coming back down. This would allow us to "shell" any country on earth from some railgun in the US. The "shells" in this case would have so much kinetic energy that they'd level a city block from the shock wave they'd create upon landing.

    WHY DON'T WE HAVE THIS ALREADY? It's the ultimate homeland defense.

    1. Re:Another railgun proposal... by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      I'm guessing because from the sounds of it, it would probably require the entire energy generation output of the state of Arizona to fire it...and probably wear out after about 5 shots.

      Assuming the physics involved even work at all.

      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
    2. Re:Another railgun proposal... by Whorhay · · Score: 2

      I think the big problem with something like that would be two fold. It would have to be mammoth in size, not just huge. That is becausethe impactor would have to receive all of it's velocity before release, instead of like an ICBM that throttles up once it is in the much thinner upper atmosphere. Missiles don't throttle up until they are at significant altitude because the forces of friction would destroy them at lower altitudes. A rail gun munition would have to be big enough that it could have an effective amount of mass left after literally burning it's way through the lower atmosphere.

      The other problem is how do you aim such a thing? Your loop is already going to be absurdly large so that you can gradually alter the path of the projectile to keep it going in a circle. Any point at which there is a relatively sudden change in direction is going to have to be massively reinforced and I really don't even know how you'd achieve altering the projectiles direction at these speeds without it just ripping through the sidewalls. The rail gun in the article shoots at around 5000mph, which comes out to a relatively puny 1.38 miles per second. Ballistic missles need to be going about 2.5 mi/s when they are at low earth orbit altitudes on the way up, so it'll need to be going faster than that when it leaves the launch facility. Can you imagine what it would take to change the course of what would probably have to be a multi ton projectile hurtling through a tube at speeds significantly above 2.5 mi/s? We'd probably need a "barrel" many miles long.

      What might be more possible would be a launch facility with several independant guns which can shoot in say 8 differing directions. Then use a projectile that is capable of guiding it's own course, probably using solid fuels, once it has been launched.

    3. Re:Another railgun proposal... by gurps_npc · · Score: 1
      Let me get this straight. You think we should build a railgun loop so powerful it can fling objects into orbit.

      Such a thing has been called a space fountain. Google it.

      But after building this incredible device designed to deliver small cargo to outer space, you want to use it as a weapon, as opposed to sending men, robots and other supplies to space?

      Man, you need to fix your priorities.

      P.S. Building said space fountain requires more money than the Manhattan Project and the Space Race combined - and is untested.

      We probably will do that - but only after we finish putting rail guns on all of our naval ships.

      --
      excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    4. Re:Another railgun proposal... by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      It's what we're working on instead of the Large Hadron Collider / CERN.

    5. Re:Another railgun proposal... by floobedy · · Score: 1

      I wish I could find the article which described this. If I recall, the railgun was supposed to be enormous and would be miles in diameter.

    6. Re:Another railgun proposal... by Jarik+C-Bol · · Score: 1

      More than one. Underground.

      --
      I've decided to Diversify my Holdings. I've divided my cash between my left and right pockets, instead of all in one.
    7. Re:Another railgun proposal... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Sounds impossible to protect, particularly if the other side has a similar capability and fires first.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  26. Is anything actually burning? by Immerman · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Actually, do we know that there's any burning going on at all? I believe the light from a fire is not directly emitted by the chemical reaction, it's a result of the combustion gasses glowing from the heat. In which case just heating even an inert gas sufficiently will cause it to glow similarly. And the immense high-speed compression from a mach-7 projectile traveling down a confined tube should generate plenty of heat.

    --
    --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    1. Re:Is anything actually burning? by noh8rz10 · · Score: 2

      that's actually a good point. think of a shooting star (meteor). There's no fuel here either, just a red hot rock and red hot air flowing behind it.

    2. Re:Is anything actually burning? by excelsior_gr · · Score: 2

      Yes, an ionized gas glows on its own, just like a neon light. I don't know if this is the case though. The case someone made above about the oxidization of fine metal particles seems plausible, too.

      In the case of a normal fire though, the glow comes from the red-hot soot particles that come from the inefficient combustion of carbon fuel, so it's not the gasses glowing from the heat.

  27. So... by msobkow · · Score: 5, Funny

    So we're back to throwing rocks.

    We just throw them very, very fast. :)

    --
    I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
    1. Re:So... by smartr · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I found it interesting to describe by calculating kinetic energy. A stabbing ~ 185 joules. A gunshot of 45 caliber ACP round ~ 702 joules. A 1 ton vehicle going 100mph ~ 1 megajoule. A giant truck about to hit a series of tubes ~ 30 Megajoules. The kinetic energy of this railgun as it leaves the muzzle ~ 30.9 Megajoules.

    2. Re:So... by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      What's the kinetic energy after 1 minute of ballistic flight?

    3. Re:So... by nitehawk214 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And better.. (or worse, if you are the target)... all 30MJ is hitting you in a spot about 10cm in diameter.

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    4. Re:So... by Overzeetop · · Score: 2

      1/2mV.terminall^2 since 83 miles away we presume it will be on the downslope of a parabolic-ish arc. 23lb at 300mph - 10kg at 136m/s = 10 x 136^2 = 185kJ give or take. So about the same as a Toyota Yaris going 40mph or a Ford Focus going 35mph.

      I presume the 100 mile targets will have to be soft. People are quite soft, as are unarmored vehicles.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    5. Re:So... by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      A Toyota Yaris with a 3" solid steel rod welded to the engine block will hurt quite a bit at 40mph, even if it is reinforced concrete. Now, repeat ram the wall 40 times...

    6. Re:So... by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      No doubt, but it won't do much more than dent anything that has been hardened against HE (or even large LE) munitions.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    7. Re:So... by geoskd · · Score: 1

      1/2mV.terminall^2 since 83 miles away we presume it will be on the downslope of a parabolic-ish arc. 23lb at 300mph - 10kg at 136m/s = 10 x 136^2 = 185kJ give or take. So about the same as a Toyota Yaris going 40mph or a Ford Focus going 35mph.

      These things will be going much much faster than terminal velocity, even 100 miles downrange. They simply will not have enough time to slow down. The shuttle on re-entry came in basically belly-into-the-wind to bleed of energy as fast as it could, and it still took a half hour and 6,000 miles to bleed off all that energy.

      This shot is designed to be stremlined, and will not bleed very much energy at all. I wouldn't be surprised if its still moving mach 6 when it gets to its target... Try redoing your calculations for 4,000 MPH, and see what you get.

      --
      I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
    8. Re:So... by bughunter · · Score: 1

      Next up: flinging poo at mach 25.

      --
      I can see the fnords!
    9. Re:So... by mdsolar · · Score: 1

      So... inside baseball....

    10. Re:So... by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      That's why we still have the cruise missiles, but it's a shame to waste them on adobe huts...

    11. Re:So... by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      That squared in "speed squared" is much of the fun.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
    12. Re:So... by Immerman · · Score: 1

      The shuttle is also going *much* faster, so the kinetic energy is far higher.
      Low Earth Orbit velocity: 27,400 km/h = 29MJ/kg
      mach 7: 8,575 km/h = 2.9 MJ/kg

      So basically the shuttle needs to shed 10x as much energy per kg as the projectile. Of course air resistance scales with the square of velocity along with the kinetic energy, so it's not a simple comparison to make. Especially when you consider that the shuttle is shedding most of it's energy at high altitude, where it's practically in vacuum compared to ground-level air resistance.

      But yeah, I doubt the projectile's slowed to anywhere near terminal velocity "at range", after all the range of a weapon tends to be listed as the distance at which it can reliably hit a target and do serious damage. Compared to what this thing could do on the firing range I doubt it's terminal velocity damage could make the cut as "serious damage"

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    13. Re:So... by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Where are you getting 300mph as the terminal velocity? And what does terminal velocity have to do with horizontal motion anyway? It's strictly a relevant concept to objects falling in a gravitational field (or subjected to some other constant force fighting friction). Unless you fired this thing straight up it's not going to be much of a factor. And frankly if you *did* fire this thing straight up, well I doubt it'd spend enough time in thick air to slow to anywhere near its TV.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    14. Re:So... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      It'll lose speed fast.

      Another issue is that, depending on what it's hitting, it may not do a good job of transferring its energy to the target. Off Samar in 1944, Japanese battleships fired armor-piercing shells at US destroyers. A 14" hole through a ship isn't good, but it could be a lot worse.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  28. Read this post in the Q3A announcer voice by gman003 · · Score: 1

    IMPRESSIVE

    1. Re:Read this post in the Q3A announcer voice by Iniamyen · · Score: 2

      QUAD DAMAGE

  29. Difficult to defend against by floobedy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Perhaps one of the big benefits of a naval railgun is that it's so difficult to defend against. Old-fashioned anti-ship missiles can be disabled or destroyed by the defending ship's close-in defenses. This is because the incoming missile is filled with sensitive electronics, guidance systems, explosives, fuel, turbojet engines, stabilizing fins, etc, and is very likely to be damaged or destroyed if hit by a 20mm round from the defending ship's CIWS missile defenses.

    However, how do you shoot down a hunk of metal traveling at mach 7 toward your ship? It wouldn't make any difference if you hit it with a 20mm round from the goalkeeper or phalanx. The projectile would just keep flying toward the ship and strike it anyways. Besides, how would you even hit something which is so small and traveling at mach 7.

    It doesn't seem there would be any good defense against this.

    1. Re:Difficult to defend against by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The defence is to not have a surface Navy, or to stick to aircraft only

      Which is probably cheaper and more effective anyway

    2. Re:Difficult to defend against by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Goalkeeper uses the GAU-8 Avenger gatling gun, which fires 30mm X 175mm rounds - and it fires 4200 a minute of them. That's a very capable gun, possibly able to divert the trajectory of the Mach 7 flying 10Kg projectile. All I'm saying is, the Goalkeeper may actually be able to protect against this kinetic weapon, especially with the new upgrades the Dutch have been planning since a couple of years ago (basically, vastly improved tracking and guidance).

    3. Re:Difficult to defend against by sinij · · Score: 1

      Of course there will be some way to defend against this. It might not exist today, but at some point in the future it will be standard-issue equipment.
       
      To speculate, if you could use magnetic fields to accelerate, you can also use magnetic fields to decelerate or redirect. Or you could design ships where March7 projectiles could go through them without inflicting much damage, so it would take 100s of hits from this slow-firing weapon to destroy the target. Or you could use submersion, even couple meters of water will absorb substantial portion of projectile's kinetic energy. Or you could play billiard with another railgun.

    4. Re:Difficult to defend against by sconeu · · Score: 1

      The problem is that the Germans and the Brazilians always seem to find a way past the goalkeeper.

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    5. Re:Difficult to defend against by JoeMerchant · · Score: 1

      Now, picture a beowulf cluster of these rail guns firing an anti-aircraft pattern up from the National Mall toward an incoming aircraft....

    6. Re:Difficult to defend against by PIBM · · Score: 2

      GoalKeeper;

      The system's reaction time to a Mach 2 sea-skimming missile such as the Russian SS-N-22 Sunburn from automatic detection to kill is reported to be 5.5 seconds with the firing synchronized to start the engagement at a range of 1,500 m and ending with a kill at 300 m.[2]

      The SS-N-22 (russian version) has a 2.6 ft diameter, while the railgun `pellet` appear to be a few inches only, thus being much harder to hit. Also, final speed of the railgun pellet should still be much higher than mach 2. And at the range-speed combo they are talking of, the trajectory should be relatively flat. I'd bet against the goalkeeper.

    7. Re:Difficult to defend against by kaiser423 · · Score: 1

      At that speed you don't need to disrupt the flight path much to cause instant unstable flight/burning up. I would think that a Phalanx could still do the trick. The issue being that it's moving fast enough that unless your defensive systems are locked, loaded and engaged you likely don't have time to react. Typically unless you're under active attack you disable them just so you don't end up with the system accidentally blowing something out of the sky and making front page news in a bad way. Though if you have a couple of these coming at you in a salvo, I imagine that you're all but screwed with current defensive systems. But that's the case with lots of "sprinting" missiles anyways that hit the deck and speed up quick just before they hit defensive range. A couple of them can make a day go bad pretty quick too.

    8. Re:Difficult to defend against by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      Thick, large plate on the end of a powerful robot arm. You should have the seconds necessary for a computer to crank it into position. You just need the accuracy in detection.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    9. Re:Difficult to defend against by Crypto+Gnome · · Score: 1

      It doesn't seem there would be any good defense against this.

      The only conceptual defence against such a weapon would have to be some kind of force-field.

      Especially when you consider this is a Generation One product.

      Scaling the system up in terms of Projectile Speed, Cycle Times, etc would only be a matter of engineering.

      --
      Visit CryptoGnome in his home.
    10. Re:Difficult to defend against by Jeremi · · Score: 1

      However, how do you shoot down a hunk of metal traveling at mach 7 toward your ship?

      I think I'd like to use a rail gun to shoot a hunk of metal at it at mach 7. Assuming I don't miss, the result should be a single projectile, twice as large, that drops straight down into the ocean. Right? ;^)

      --


      I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
    11. Re:Difficult to defend against by cbhacking · · Score: 1

      Clearly, the solution is railgun-based point defense! Sure, it'll have a lower rate of fire than the current CIWS units, but imagine the light show you'd get from the sparks when of a pair of opposing slugs run into each other at a combined mach 12 or so?

      Impractical today, of course, but technology marches on. In the meantime, it isn't actually that hard to deflect the projectile enough... if you can hit it at any meaningful distance. That's going to be quite impractical (just hitting it at all is likely impractical) so for the moment, yeah. Add to that the ability to scale up the gun faster than people can realistically produce defense (my WAG there, but I suspect it's true nonetheless) and offense is taking a lead right now.

      On the other hand, that's been true for a long time in a different way, which also brings me to the best defensive measure I can think of: a few hundred feet of H2O. Phalanx can't hit a torpedo, either...

      --
      There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
    12. Re: Difficult to defend against by joib · · Score: 1
      Old-fashioned anti-ship missiles can be disabled or destroyed by the defending ship's close-in defenses. This is because the incoming missile is filled with sensitive electronics, guidance systems, explosives, fuel, turbojet engines, stabilizing fins, etc, and is very likely to be damaged or destroyed if hit by a 20mm round from the defending ship's CIWS missile defenses.

      FWIW, AFAIU the old gun-based CIWS things are being replaced by missile systems (RAM) since they don't work against modern supersonic anti-ship missiles, to say nothing about railgun projectiles. Think about it, the gun shoots a projectile traveling at about mach 3, roughly the same as the incoming missile(?). So at the outer end of the range (say, 4 km?) it starts shooting. The shells and the missile pass each other at around 2 km, at which point it starts to become pointless to shoot anymore since even if you hit the damn thing (at 1 km, this time) it will more or less continue on its trajectory due to sheer momentum thanks to traveling at mach 3. Simply not enough time for the control algorithm (Kalman filter, or whatnot) to do its magic.

      So, how to defend against railguns? Well, you get a bigger railgun! :) Or ballistic anti-ship missiles. But yeah, probably quite hard to do anything to the railgun projectiles after they are launched.

    13. Re:Difficult to defend against by mdsolar · · Score: 1

      Seems like a barrage pattern might work pretty well to produce a focused sub crushing wave. It would work like a directional antenna.

    14. Re:Difficult to defend against by twosat · · Score: 1

      Maybe something like Metal Storm? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...

    15. Re:Difficult to defend against by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      Decelerating it with a magnetic field isn't feasible. The current in the railgun does 2 things:
      1. It makes a hell of a magnetic field
      2. It runs through the projectile. That current undergoes a Lorentz force due to the magnetic field. The Lorentz force moves the projectile.

      How are you going to induce that current in a projectile that is heading towards you? Without it the magnetic field will not influence the projectile.

      And that is besides the technical challenges in making a magnetic field with enough strength to stop this while enveloping the entire ship.

      I'd upgrade the goalkeeper, but I am Dutch so that was to be expected.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
    16. Re:Difficult to defend against by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      If stuff like forcefields are allowed then you should just give your ship a General Products hull.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
    17. Re:Difficult to defend against by davewoods · · Score: 1

      My favorite choice is this one: You can also use magnetic fields to decelerate or redirect

      Just imagine being able to catch one of these things... "Thanks for all the energy! We really needed it to charge up this high-powered death laser."

  30. Re:space requirements and fire rate by nevermindme · · Score: 1

    Cooling for a Ship weapon...wonder where there is a unlimited supply of 80deg water that has be boiled for cooking/drinking/showers?

  31. And the advantage of this is? by bobbied · · Score: 5, Informative

    Many!

    Imagine if you didn't need to handle explosives like Cordite as propellents anymore. This will reduce storage space and make a battleship's gun turret a while lot safer place to work. One small spark won't set off a magazine anymore.

    "Muzzle velocity" is higher, so the distance you can throw something is a bit further, like 5x further. If you can fire further, you have a huge advantage because you can hit your opponent before he can shoot at you. Or if you are doing ground support, you can fire further inland.

    I'm assuming a rail gun will be faster to reload. Might take some time to recharge the power supply, but surely we can fire faster than a Mark 7's 2 rounds a minute. More pounds and rounds on the target than your opponent is always better.

    Finally, it may be possible to more strictly control forces on the shell when firing it, which may make it possible to put more technology IN the shells, and still get very high velocity. Imagine a shell that can adjust it's flight path, even slightly, which means you can fire in the general direction you want, then fine tune the aim in flight. (I assume they don't do that now..)

    Issues to watch out for: First, Rail guns tend to have tracks (rails) and said rails usually have difficulty with wear due to the huge forces and high speeds involved. Hopefully they have engineered the better materials. Second, power supplies for rail guns have to be designed to provide HUGE impulse powers with power generation systems wanting to be running at steady state. You have to match the two. Finally, weapons like this usually mean you have to redesign the whole weapons system, a process that literally takes decades.

    Go Navy, this is worth the R&D money..

    --
    "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    1. Re:And the advantage of this is? by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      Imagine a shell that can adjust it's flight path, even slightly, which means you can fire in the general direction you want, then fine tune the aim in flight. (I assume they don't do that now..)

      They don't, and even a railgun projectile probably won't either - because the force required to effect a significant change in trajectory (especially in azimuth) is simply too great.

    2. Re:And the advantage of this is? by timeOday · · Score: 1
    3. Re:And the advantage of this is? by charlesj68 · · Score: 1

      Imagine a shell that can adjust it's flight path, even slightly, which means you can fire in the general direction you want, then fine tune the aim in flight. (I assume they don't do that now..)

      They don't, and even a railgun projectile probably won't either - because the force required to effect a significant change in trajectory (especially in azimuth) is simply too great.

      M712 Copperhead

    4. Re:And the advantage of this is? by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      In ballistic mode, it only fine tunes the trajectory - you can't simply 'fire it in the general direction' and fix things up later. You already have to be in the basket, which isn't that large. The basket is larger for glide mode, but it's still not "in the general direction".

      (Hint: Quoting from Wikipedia when you don't know jack shit doesn't make you look intelligent when you're replying to someone who does know what he's talking about.)

  32. WTF? by benjfowler · · Score: 1

    Why the hell does an inert slug encased in a discarding sabot cost twenty grand?

    Are the defence contractors taking the piss or what?

    1. Re:WTF? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Please drive over to Best Buy and pick up a case (36) of these, ship them to the DOD and include the receipt.

      Not defending the absurd markups in the defense contracting world, but there is a major economy of scale issue here too. They are likely using a specialty alloy run through a one-of-a-kind manufacturing line to produce these things. They're not going to be cheap like tire rims.

    2. Re:WTF? by AK+Marc · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Tolerances causes more cost than you think, and documentation around military contract is generally at least half the cost of anything. It's not the contractors taking the piss (what, are you in OZ or UK?), but the government being stupid in supporting the military industrial complex.

    3. Re:WTF? by Tailhook · · Score: 3, Informative

      Why the hell does an inert slug encased in a discarding sabot cost twenty grand?

      The only way these get cheap is if we have to make a lot of them to fight a war. Be thankful we only have to deal with low-rate peacetime economics where the development costs of unique tooling gets amortized across a small number of prototype rail gun slugs creating a big per-unit price tag that causes fools to go apoplectic.

      --
      Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
    4. Re:WTF? by Russ1642 · · Score: 1

      The payload doesn't cost $25,000. Shooting it does.

    5. Re:WTF? by Arker · · Score: 1

      "They are likely using a specialty alloy run through a one-of-a-kind manufacturing line to produce these things. They're not going to be cheap like tire rims."

      Not until the Chinese clone it. You can bet their projectiles will be orders of magnitude less expensive, and just slightly less effective.

      --
      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
      Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
    6. Re:WTF? by avandesande · · Score: 2

      Probably includes cost of rail maintenance- most artillery pieces need to be re-barreled at some interval as well.

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
    7. Re:WTF? by confused+one · · Score: 1

      Because each one is a custom, hand-made part that probably went through an extensive measurement process in a QA lab prior to each assembly step and after it was completed.

  33. Cant wait for... by danknight48 · · Score: 1

    Instagib gamemode!

  34. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by the.o.ster.66 · · Score: 1

    is there a recoil on rail guns? or is this a joke?

  35. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by the.o.ster.66 · · Score: 5, Funny

    according to the experts at yahoo answers, there isn't recoil in the traditional sense, but there is recoil because physics and also it somehow forms babby.

  36. Re:space requirements and fire rate by Immerman · · Score: 2

    I doubt the capacitors are actually much of a risk either - after all there's no need to have them charged until right before you fire. It'll only be that brief window when they've got a large charge but haven't yet fired that they'll be dangerous. Unlike missiles, conventional explosives, propellants, and fuel which are all a continuous danger as long as they're on board.

    --
    --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
  37. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by ColdWetDog · · Score: 3, Funny

    F=MA. M = big, A = very fast, therefore F = big very fast!

    So, teaching in current mathematics has come to this?

    We're doomed.

    --
    Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
  38. Discarding Sabot by bra1n · · Score: 1

    I see that they are using a discarding sabot to keep from welding the projectile to the rails.

  39. Why the firey explosion? by gurps_npc · · Score: 1

    I don't see why there would be a red explosion at the end of the barrel when the projectile was launched if this was truly a railgun.

    --
    excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    1. Re:Why the firey explosion? by Zontar+The+Mindless · · Score: 2

      Friction with and compression of the air yield heat.

      Enough heat turns air into plasma.

      Plasma has a tendency to glow brightly in the yellow-red range.

      --
      Il n'y a pas de Planet B.
  40. Re:There must be a money burning contest in the US by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

    If they were any smart, they'd speed up the development of such things as precision time-fused grenades for hand-held grenade launchers, such as the ones used in the XM25. There's a lot of low-hanging fruit in such humble endeavors.

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
  41. Not quite yet, but getting there. by Animats · · Score: 1

    This is a technololgy that's almost there. Like laser weapons. Big chemical lasers that could shoot down shells or small missiles were built two decades ago, but they were building-sized installations, used huge amounts of hazardous chemicals, and took a long time to cool between shots. A decade ago, the THEL laser system had that down to three semi-trailers, but it still used big tanks of hazardous chemicals. Recently, big arrays of solid-state lasers have been used to shoot down shells and small missiles, and that system fits on a medium sized truck. The current version is only 10KW, and the consensus is that about 50KW to 100KW is needed to be really effective.

  42. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by rickett81 · · Score: 1
    IANAPhysicist,

    I believe the 'recoil' here would be experienced by the gun itself. The Lorentz force causes the opposite force to be directed at a right angle to the projectile. So there would be very little recoil in the traditional sense but the forces acting on the barrel would be much greater than in a traditional gun.

  43. Railgun Technology: Japan already beat us to it. by grep+-v+'.*'+* · · Score: 1

    Info here, official visuals here. And look, there's another!

    (That's last bit's a pun -- but believe me, you most likely didn't get it..)

    --
    If the universe is someone's simulation -- does that mean the stars are just stuck pixels?
  44. Great Scott! 1.21 GigaWatts! by gelfling · · Score: 2

    let's see 23lbs @ 7333 fps is about 169,000 ft lbs or about 229,000 joules each second. If the projectile hits the target for about 1/500th of a second that's more or less 1.2 GigaWatts.

  45. Longevity of the guns by ChromaticDragon · · Score: 1

    I'm curious how they've addressed the issues of these sorts of things tearing themselves apart. The article doesn't go into details. One has to assume since the overall price per projective was determine that this was factored into things. And the video seems to show something rather purposely placed there that gets destroyed in the launch process.

    Anyone find further details?

    1. Re:Longevity of the guns by Algae_94 · · Score: 1

      I don't have much to say about the projectiles failing, but what is shown falling away from the projectile in the video is a sabot. It is used to launch projectiles that don't mate perfectly with the barrel.

    2. Re:Longevity of the guns by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      BAE and GA have been working on that. That is why this has taken almost a decade. Hopefully, China does not have the technology because, what you describe is the main problem, which is from heat.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    3. Re:Longevity of the guns by chasm22 · · Score: 1

      Haven't heard much about the General Atomic gun, but the one initially designed by BAE had severe problems. BAE just got another bunch of cash to improve their design. I believe this is really outmoded stuff. Given the state of drone technology and the state of warfare. I just don't see the need. Just what niche does this fit into that already doesn't haven't an adequate weapon system. I'm completely blown away by some of the sentiment I've seen that suggests the lack of explosives is somehow a more humane way of doing business. But what really concerns me when I read the various articles about this weapon system is the total lack of criticism. I guess we can all assume that for the first time in history a defense contractor has delivered a well designed, well tested, weapon system BECAUSE not one freakin article said there were any challenges facing General Atomic. All systems go! Right, let me check back in 5 years and see where this project is at.

  46. Simple explaination... by rts008 · · Score: 1

    The flames/fireball are similar to the the effects of say, a meteor entering Earth's atmoshere at high velocity...no fuel involved.

    No trick here, just super heated air and plasma caused by friction, and maybe some 'fuel' from ablation of sabot and possibly projectile.
    Similar principals enable deisel engines to combust fuel without a spark plug...compression causes friction, friction causes heat, ...

    --
    Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
  47. Re:space requirements and fire rate by gurps_npc · · Score: 1

    Cooling generally is not an issue on ships. Nuclear reactors need a better cooling system than the capacitors do.

    --
    excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
  48. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by gnick · · Score: 2

    F=MA. M = big, A = very fast, therefore F = big very fast!

    So, teaching in current mathematics has come to this?

    We're doomed.

    If somebody asks whether accelerating a 23-lb mass to Mach 7 would push the thing accelerating it backward, we may have to go back to F=ma. And defining m=big and a=very fast seems appropriate. So, yeah, F=big very fast. Not perfect grammar, but at least it paints a picture for our friend who has yet to hear of Newton.

    --
    He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
  49. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by TuringCheck · · Score: 1

    is there a recoil on rail guns? or is this a joke?

    The recoil is lower than a conventiomal chemical gun for the same projectile and speed because no gas is accelerated with the projectile.

    However, rail guns tend to be immensely heavy beasts to withstand recoil and transversal electromagnetic forces.

  50. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    No. There is always an opposing force. The 90 degree bit you are thinking of with the Lorentz force is the angle between the force generated and the magnetic field used to generate it. If the gun is applying a force on the projectile to launch it out, there is a force being applied backward on the gun.

  51. Re:Missed Cost by JoeMerchant · · Score: 2

    I'm betting that $25K per shot includes the cost of launcher maintenance.

    Even for military use, 10kg of solid projectile material shouldn't bill out at $25K.

  52. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 1

    The real purpose of these guns, is to entertain Slashdot, while siphoning Federal monies into private pockets for exciting boondoggles.

    --
    "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
    Never been known to fail..."
  53. Fuck Alpha by morgauxo · · Score: 1

    I just got a Slashdot Alpha page!!! Worse than the beta, it's Facebook comments!

  54. Q3A by antdude · · Score: 1

    I was expecting Quake 3 Arena's railgun type. :/

    --
    Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
  55. Assault gun by BlazingATrail · · Score: 1

    It looks scary, let's ban it !

    1. Re:Assault gun by geekoid · · Score: 1

      I'm all for banning this from general public usage.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  56. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Sable+Drakon · · Score: 1

    Newtonian Physics 101: For every action, there's an equal and opposite reaction. So you want to launch a slug of metal at Mach 7, there's going to be an equivelant force pushing back on the gun and whatever it's mounted on. A plane just isn't going to survive those forces yet.

    --
    The Amarri pray for god, the Caldari pray for profit. the Gallente pray for peace, but the Minmatar pray their ships hol
  57. Did you fail physics? by rts008 · · Score: 2

    The same reason that space vehicles and meteors burn the atmoshere when they encounter 'air' at high velocities.

    The same thing that destroyed the space shuttle "Columbia"with damaged heat tiles on the wing edge when it re-entered.

    --
    Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
  58. I thought that BAE won the contract? by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    BAE had another contract for building more of these. How did GA get this? Do not get me wrong. I am happy to see this since rail guns are about the sanest approach to weapons. BUT, GA had lost the contract.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  59. Re:New Railgun? by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    Not really old news. THis is the winner of all that work. Prior to this, BAE and GA were competing to make these, which is not easy. And DDX has been gutted, so now, the focus is on putting railguns on current ships. Personally, I wish that they would make the DDX, but make it nukes so that it can have plenty of power to run motor, lasers and multiple railguns.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  60. Re:100mi range seem optimistic by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    Keep in mind that while most of these shells are dummies, some of them will be smart shells with the ability to move a bit.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  61. Oops by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    https://imgur.com/gallery/TzwvO

    The gun is off center so that the barrel firing is perfectly lined up with the center of the plane, otherwise it would crash. Not that it turns it.

  62. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by X0563511 · · Score: 1

    You mean the A-10 that's going away?

    --
    For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
  63. Re:Quibble by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    yup. However, far more likely, is that a smart warhead will be developed so that it can steer a bit around.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  64. Re:No terminal guidance by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    Not quite. You can bet on it that they will ahve a smart shell that has fins/electronics so that it can move a couple of degrees around, which would be enough to handle moving targets.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  65. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Well they better get the 'babby on board' signs up pronto! Who know what could happen if one of these ships gets rear ended.

  66. Re:There must be a money burning contest in the US by Arker · · Score: 1

    That's true of the broader scene.

    This project in particular seems to have some odd implications as well. I believe it's poor policy, contrary to our national interest, but nonetheless Washington is committed to encircling China with the Navy, and clearly this tech is intended to help with that. But I have to project the Chinese copying the tech rapidly. And this sort of weapon is going to be easier and cheaper to implement (not to mention much more accurate!) if you mount it on land instead of on a ship.

    I suspect by the time the US Navy has a number of these weapons in operational use, the Chinese will counter with much larger number of similar, if less sophisticated, versions in fixed emplacements along their coast, and their position will be better, not worse as a result.

    That is to say, it appears to be tech that swings the balance of power toward defense. Not necessarily a bad thing that, but if the governments purpose in developing this technology was defensive, they would not have gone to all the trouble to specifically implement this as a ship-portable weapon.

    It's very neat tech, and I can understand some enthusiasm on a purely technical level, but on the level of 'good use of taxpayers money' I am afraid it is pure fail.

    --
    =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
  67. Now, they need to create several one-offs. by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    In particular, for the ships, they need a replacement for Phalanx. Basically, imagine a gattling gun with these at say 8 megajoules rather than 64 mj that this uses. Simply fire small rounds to take out an incoming missile or plane that comes within 20 miles.

    In addition, the house republicans need to allow the DOD to stop production on the M1A2. They want to upgrade the system so that it will have better protection from IEDs, but also so that the main gun can be replaced with this. A tank that can shot shells like this just 10 miles, but in particular, can do it with 3 second bursts, would be a major change in warfare.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  68. It doesn't seem there would be any good defense ag by jordanjay29 · · Score: 1

    I'm sure at some point, someone thought the same of missiles, cannons or even bow & arrows. Eventually, a defense will be discovered.

  69. Carriers by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    Likely doesn't matter if the ship you are bolting it to has a nuclear reactor on board. May birth a new type of nuclear ship, with a rail gun specialization.

    Likely not usable without such a power source I would think. With that source, I doubt energy reserve will be the issue.

    I think the issue will be one of materials. Subjecting a barrel to that kind of force and heat repeatedly is going to have a negative effect on it. If you take too many shots too quickly, you will likely damage it. I wonder how they cool it without causing additional hot/cold stress. Not to mention expansion issues.

    1. Re:Carriers by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Well, the issue is not so much energy as it is power. A nuclear reactor doesn't really deliver any more power than a turbine - it just doesn't run out of fuel as often and doesn't require air (not an issue on the surface).

      If your reactor delivers power in the MW range, and to fire at max speed your railgun needs power in the GW range, then you have a problem. Heat/wear has been an even bigger problem in the past as you've noted, but power is still a challenge if you want to sustain a high firing rate.

  70. Get over this crap already! by monkeyFuzz · · Score: 1

    From the vast majority of /. posts on this weapon the community resembles a bunch of 10 year old boys playing war and comparing and contrasting all kinds of minutiae without considering what are arguably the more important issues: Why do we need yet more efficient means of destruction? What purpose does it achieve? Instead of being raving fanboys have you considered the opportunity cost of the resources expended in such programs?

    1. Re:Get over this crap already! by geekoid · · Score: 1

      "Why do we need yet more efficient means of destruction?"
      more efficiency means less deaths, and more accurate usage.

      " What purpose does it achieve?"
      helps bypass anti-missle defense, and safer delivery for the crew.

      " Instead of being raving fanboys have you considered the opportunity cost of the resources expended in such programs?"
      Yes. Since operating it will likely prove to be cheaper, and require less material then current systems, it's a long term gain.
      You do know, the military has experts the work those numbers, right?

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:Get over this crap already! by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Because military power is not something where you can get "enough". You only have enough against given opposition. You may not have to use it, as a perfectly good use of military power is to convince other people not to start a war with you, but you need enough to win. Unfortunately, this means that keeping competitive takes increasing amounts of money, because potential opponents can spend more too. I forget who said that the most expensive luxury is a military almost good enough to win.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  71. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by lgw · · Score: 1

    After all, isolationism worked so well in WWII ...

    --
    Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
  72. the future is now... by schlachter · · Score: 2

    and now...and now...and now...it just keeps coming

    --
    My God can beat up your God. Just kidding...don't take offense. I know there's no God.
    1. Re:the future is now... by geekoid · · Score: 3, Funny

      The future is never now..the present is now.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:the future is now... by L4t3r4lu5 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Now is always the past. Your perception is delayed, unless you are the event.

      --
      Finally had enough. Come see us over at https://soylentnews.org/
    3. Re:the future is now... by Johann+Lau · · Score: 3, Funny

      Too soon.

    4. Re:the future is now... by liamoohay · · Score: 1

      The future is never now..the present is now.

      Or at least it was then.

  73. Re:Lots of problems I can see. by Blaskowicz · · Score: 1

    The huge energy storage is ultimately the ship's diesel fuel, or what variant of heavy fuel oil it uses. That makes the logistics and storage easy (more accurately, already done).

  74. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Rear ending babby? Are you a Catholic priest?

  75. Re:Funny fact about the warthogg and recoil by CronoCloud · · Score: 1

    That's a myth, look it up. Besides the GAU-8 cannon has always been off center with the firing barrel being at centerline.

  76. The very definition of a B.A.L.R.O.G. by GJSchaller · · Score: 1

    Big Ass, Long Range, Overkill Gun.

    Now, if it takes 60 seconds to charge and the bridge crew needs to don goggles to fire it... ;-)

  77. The downside may be. by Grey+Geezer · · Score: 1

    that it will be very difficult or even impossible to make it a "smart" projectile. I'm guessing that even the most advanced electronics and guidance mechanics can not stand up to that G force. Anyone with expertise in these things please comment.

    --
    The USA is only 4X older than me...perspective
    1. Re:The downside may be. by garyebickford · · Score: 1

      One of the articles I read today says that the Army has already got that going. They are already firing 'smart' projectiles from howitzers and other large guns, and I would think that the accelerations are equivalent.

      Just idly thinking about this, solid state electronics can take a lot. When you drop your watch on a concrete floor it may experience 700 G deceleration on impact, at an arbitrary angle.

      --
      It's easier to be a result of the past, but more fun to be a cause of the future! http://www.spacefinancegroup.com/
    2. Re:The downside may be. by holmstar · · Score: 1

      Howitzers don't fire rounds at mach 7. Also, any electronics in a smart rail gun projectile would need to withstand a pretty intense magnetic pulse.

    3. Re:The downside may be. by Lehk228 · · Score: 1

      EM shielding for the electronics is easy, shielding for the servos needed to steer however...

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
  78. Not nearly fast enough to be really useful. by Karmashock · · Score: 1

    We need shells that can reach 25,000 Mph... enough to reach low earth orbit. Correct me if I'm wrong on that number...

    Then we can translate electricity directly into orbital launch capability.

    Obviously useless for moving human beings or sensitive equipment. But for bulk supplies... fuel, air, structural material... maybe food... Suddenly we launch such things for a fraction of cost which means orbital habitats might be sustainable.

    --
    I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
  79. Jerk by srussia · · Score: 1

    The recoil is lower than a conventiomal chemical gun for the same projectile and speed because no gas is accelerated with the projectile.

    The subjective perception of recoil is really a function of (given constant mass) jerk not acceleration.

    --
    Set your phasers on "funky"!
    1. Re:Jerk by geekoid · · Score: 2

      And if there is any place that knows about jerk, it's /. :)

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  80. Re:Accuracy and moving targets by viperidaenz · · Score: 1

    More accurate than an artillery shell, since it's moving faster and less effected by wind direction.

  81. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Lotana · · Score: 1

    Amazing how long WWII is being milked to keep patriotism and massive military complex alive. Hell, it was before I was born! I wonder how may decades 9/11 will be used as a propaganda cry.

    <Sarcasm>
    Why are you all friendly towards Canada? They burnt down the White House!!!

    Where is your hatred for Mexico? Don't you remember Alamo?!

    Traitor!
    </Sarcasm>

  82. Re:Accuracy and moving targets by Jarik+C-Bol · · Score: 1

    The fun part of these is because they travel so fast, when they finally hit something strong enough, they convert all their kinetic energy into thermal energy via compression, and then explode into a white hot mass of flying molten metal that looks pretty much like an explosion. Its pretty much the next best thing to having a kinetic bombardment satellite.

    --
    I've decided to Diversify my Holdings. I've divided my cash between my left and right pockets, instead of all in one.
  83. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by lgw · · Score: 1

    When I was young, we had a pre-printed pad on the fridge for keeping track of chores and errand and whatnot. It was pre-printed:
    Things to remember:
    1. The Alamo
    2. _________________
    3. _________________
    4. _________________
    (etc).

    But seriously, we really didn't want to get involved in WWII until it was far too late. Prevention is simply cheaper than emergency care, even in world politics. But it's been long enough that we've forgotten now, and while we'll save a few bucks gutting our military, it will cost us more if there's a major war in Asia, even if we don't get involved directly, when the global economy craters for a decade.

    --
    Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
  84. Re:New Railgun? by Blaskowicz · · Score: 1

    Thanks! so General Atomics won.

  85. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Guy+From+V · · Score: 1

    The A-10 Thunderbolt II is being retired very soon I believe.

  86. conflicted and confused by confused+one · · Score: 1

    I don't know whether to be happy that another science fiction article has become science fact; or, horrified at the future capability it represents. I know someone in a back room is wondering, "How large will this scale and still be viable inside the atmosphere?"

  87. Get all your Terrorists in a Row by Bob+Munck · · Score: 1

    I'm unclear how widespread deployment of this weapon would have altered the course of any of the wars we've waged during my lifetime. And I'm 68 years old.

  88. Didn't I just see that? by arthurh3535 · · Score: 1

    I'm pretty sure I saw that in Captain America: Winter Soldier last night. Now they just need to get it flying! :)

    --
    No! It's a *SIG*. Keep the Special Interest Groups away! (Con joke!)
  89. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by budgenator · · Score: 2

    There is a youtube video where the weapon is initiated (fired isn't quite appropriate as there is no fire involved) and you can definitely see the barrel recoil within the gun base. The M114, 155mm howitzer firing the M107 he projectile masses at 43Kg and has a muzzle velocity of 564 m/s resulting in at least 24252 Kg*m/s of recoil; the railgun fires a 10 Kg projectile with a muzzle velocity of 2235 m/s resulting in 22350 Kg*m/s or 8% less recoil (power) than a howitzer; 1.3678128e7 J vs. 4.995225e9, but 365 times more energy.

    --
    Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
  90. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 2

    30MJ is about 2,000kW electrical for one round per second. Not that much power at these energy levels.

  91. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

    ...A plane just isn't going to survive those forces yet.

    William Gibson suggested mounting it in a blimp. Who cares about the blimp?

    --
    When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
  92. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Bartles · · Score: 1

    That's a stupid way of phrasing it. The recoil is identical to a chemically propelled projectile. In other words the recoil is proportional to the mass and acceleration of the projectile and associated matter. The gun pushes on the projectile, the projectile pushes on the gun.

  93. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Bartles · · Score: 1

    If the projectile goes one way, the gun goes the other. Lorentz forces happen in addition.

  94. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Bartles · · Score: 1

    It's not about being the world's police. It's about stopping something that is clearly evil. Looking the other way is just as evil as cutting off someone's hand.

  95. Re:New Railgun? by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    well, I do not understand this. Back in Dec, the DOD announced that BAE won. Now, they are testing GA's system. I have to wonder if BAE is going on to develop something else.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  96. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    Actually, they only need to do about 8MJ for the A10. Ideally, make a gattling gun type approach to it.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  97. What threat? by manu0601 · · Score: 1

    What threat do you face when you spend alone 50% of worldwide military expenses? And it skyrockets to 80% if counting NATO allies.

    1. Re:What threat? by OldHawk777 · · Score: 1

      Freedom by any other name is still MIC autocracy.

      --
      Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
  98. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Bartles · · Score: 1

    And like I said, it's a stupid way of phrasing it. The physics are exactly the same.

  99. Capturing another navy by mdsolar · · Score: 1

    Seems like a barrage should be able to form a wave that can capsize a boat. Go back in and salvage and you get an addition to your own navy. Our first naval battle did exactly that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B...

  100. Step 2: Everyone will want one by straz · · Score: 1
    It will be cheaper than missiles and impossible to defend against. So, we all know that sooner or later we'll be on the receiving end of these exciting new weapons, right?

    The plan is to protect ourselves with... uh... patents?

  101. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by dryeo · · Score: 1

    You mean the consequences of theft?

    --
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
  102. Well, that was awkward... by raver_wolf · · Score: 1

    I just got a freedom boner.

  103. Why just use it to smash? by dbIII · · Score: 1

    My first thought was far too geeky - "mach 7 - I wonder if this could be used as a cheap way to test scramjet models".
    A scramjet model I saw as far back as 1987 probably wasn't much bigger than the size of these projectiles. Progress has been so slow because shock tunnels give limited time at speed and testing via rocket is expensive and time consuming.

  104. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Bartles · · Score: 1

    WTF are you talking about. Seriously. Lay off the weed.

  105. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by dryeo · · Score: 1

    The State of the American prison system where rape seems to be common and glorified as just punishment, torture in the form of solitary confinement is also common, 1 in a 100 American adults are there and you still have the medieval concept of felon where civil rights are removed permanently forming a segregated society.
    Barbarianism comes in many forms though often with self righteousness.
    (apologies if you're not American)

    --
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
  106. Two questions by treeves · · Score: 1

    1. How loud is it?
    2. How hot does the projectile get after a mile at Mach 7?

    I'm guessing:
    1. Really loud.
    2. Really hot.

    --
    ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
    1. Re:Two questions by treeves · · Score: 1

      I realize after a mile probably not so hot yet, since that takes only about half a second!
      How hot does it get after 50 miles at Mach 7?
      There, I fixed that for myself.

      --
      ...the future crusty old bastards are already drinking the Kool-Aid.
  107. Ammo in a different form by ThatsNotPudding · · Score: 2

    Not much room needed for the projectiles, less danger of a powder room exploding, fine. But none of this seems to even mention: what is generating the massive amount of electrical energy required per shot? Not to mention rate of fire - how much time is needed to generate that power for each shot? That this is a very quiet elephant in the room implies it's pretty bad on both counts.

    1. Re:Ammo in a different form by Chrontius · · Score: 1

      Either a nuke, or a gas turbine; either coupled to a capacitor bank that's very close to inert when discharged.

  108. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by Johann+Lau · · Score: 1

    Between the dictators the US props up and the civilians it kills, and way the military industrial complex robs you blind, how about you OPEN your eyes?

    "But I don't need to, it's already obvious!" -- every moron, ever

  109. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by BitZtream · · Score: 1

    Perhaps you should watch few HBO TV shows. Oz wasn't real, only in your homoerotic fantasies.

    --
    Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
  110. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

    True, but in the general sense, "recoil" is usually the label given to the force applied to the gun moving in the opposed direction of the projectile, caused by an extremely rapid burn of propellant.

    With this, there is no propellant - only magnetic force, applied in increasing amounts rather than all at once. And, you have an apparatus that weighs several tons to exert that magnetic force on something that weighs 23 pounds. Any opposed force (which exists) is completely mitigated by the construction of the thing, and how it's bolted / welded to the ship.

    It's the same idea as using a spring in a ball point pen to launch the ink barrel a few feet - there is an opposed force from the spring trying to expand in both directions, but it's so minute compared to what it's pushing against, that it might as well not exist.

    --
    Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
  111. Am i the only one? by stonebit · · Score: 1

    Am i the only one who finds our race to destryoy more shit more quickly disturbing?

    1. Re:Am i the only one? by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      Well, you could end each conflict by lobbing a few ICBM's at the enemy. That'd stop them for sure.

      These weapons are an alternative to lobbing nukes. A nicer alternative, something akin to the difference between removing a tumor with a scalpel or with a sledgehammer. Neither is fun for the tumor, but the surrounding tissue prefers the scalpel.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
  112. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

    All I'm saying is if we're going to be 'stopping evil', how about we finish up in our own country first before we force our military, and the taxes that pay for it, into someone else's business.

    And we've got a long fucking way to go.

    --
    There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
  113. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by gnick · · Score: 2

    Yeah - Go pedantics! Big can be size, weight, importance, etc... Knee-jerking "big"=="size" is like saying that the "shortest" route home means plowing through walls, cars, etc, rather than going to my car and taking the "quickest" route home. Yes, "fast" is "speed", but when you're referencing F=ma, I think that "getting something big to move fast" implies changing the velocity of a given mass. How close to Kindergarten do we need to get?

    Well, I'm arguing with an AC on an article a day old that will probably never be read. Maybe a day of Kindergarten is what we all need.

    --
    He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
  114. Wind Resistance by allonoak · · Score: 1

    If you are confused because it can't travel further, it's the end result of wind resistance on the projectile.

  115. Re:space requirements and fire rate by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

    The danger of high explosives maybe offset if you would need a nuclear reactor onboard

    There are few organizations that have more experience with, and a better operating record of nuclear power than the United States Navy.

    --
    Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
  116. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by lgw · · Score: 1

    Did you reply to the right post?

    --
    Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
  117. Re:100mi range seem optimistic by MachineShedFred · · Score: 1

    Being 100 miles away, it is likely difficult for a truck full of [assholes|explosives|fuel|supplies] to know that there is a 10.5kg tungsten lump flying at them. You can't do evasive maneuvers against something you don't know is there.

    Also, bridges, runways, radar installations, and electrical infrastructure don't move a whole lot.

    --
    Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
  118. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by drainbramage · · Score: 1

    Wrestling holds to avoid:
    1> Half Nelson
    2> Full Nelson
    3> Father Nelson

    --
    No brain, no pain.
  119. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by drainbramage · · Score: 1

    Sure is.
    Also a big difference between watching a beating and acting to stop it.

    --
    No brain, no pain.
  120. Re:Glitterboyz on the way by david_thornley · · Score: 1

    To entertain Slashdot, wouldn't it be more economical to skip the railgun and go straight to the pr0n?

    --
    "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  121. Questions and a comment by EM2(RET)Knight · · Score: 1

    Refit the USS Missouri and USS New Jersey with railguns and nuke propulsion systems Imagine the broadside coming down on your position... Now my son asks if the railguns could put something in LEO? Help! BTW... Battlewagons rule!

  122. Mach 7? by Sanhedran · · Score: 1

    I'd rather seem them launched at Windows 8.

  123. My Question? Clean no nuke energy dissipation??? by OldHawk777 · · Score: 1

    Is that more or less than 100megaton yeild at PoI?

    --
    Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
  124. Re:My Question? Clean no nuke energy dissipation?? by OldHawk777 · · Score: 1

    Whoops, no not 100megaton only about 16 pounds of TNT, I guess that is equal to a bomb vest, but far more specific targeting.

    --
    Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?