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Mercedes Pooh-Poohs Tesla, Says It Has "Limited Potential"
cartechboy (2660665) writes "They say you shouldn't bite the hand that feeds you. Maybe it should go you shouldn't trash talk the company you partner with. U.S. head of Mercedes-Benz Steve Cannon was just quoted as saying future service of Tesla's vehicles could be 'limited,' and that while it's great, the market could be more attracted to other luxury automakers once their products hit the market. Cannon also suggests that the current infrastructure isn't up to maintaining and fueling electric vehicles, in particularly Tesla's stores and go-to servicing can't handle high demands. Naturally he said Mercedes has the 'whole network' to put customers minds' at ease. Sounds like fighting words to me. Hey Mercedes, where's your Model S competitor?"
There is a reason that Jim Rogers drove around the world in a Mercedes.
From the summary, it seems like they are valid criticisms at the moment. I hope tesla grows and becomes a big player, but both those points seem like they'll need to be addressed as they progress.
what review did Eeyore give it?
We came years late to the party, but we're still relevant. In fact we're still the king. LONG LIVE THE KING.
Exec tries to sell more of his own product. More at 11.
...seriously...
As long as you look at the world as it is now and don't account for a fast moving tech world, I suppose his viewpoint is correct.
In the same vein, around 2004 or so, smart phones would have appeared "limited" because the cell and wifi infrastructure didn't exist. Yet, in 10 years, the supply has met the demand (well, arguably), and now smart phones are ubiquitous.
Or it could just be sour grapes.
"First They ignore you, Then they laugh at you, Then they fight you, Then you win."
I think this looks a bit like Mercedes laughing at Tesla...
"Is the Chief Priest an Offlian? Do dragons explode in the wood?"
Didn't they invest in Tesla a while back, including a joint venture for the electric B-class?
That was a weird link to Jim Rogers website and the reminder about what web sites looked like around the millennium. Why add that?
Calling that vehicle a Mercedes is like relating a Ford Trimotor to a Model T. Sure they have some parts in common but it is not even remotely close to something you can pick up at a local dealership.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
This is news?
Who wants a Mercedes anyways? That's old tech. Make mine a Tesla!
(well, someday, when I have the money...)
Have any of them actually dealt with a stealership in the last 50 years? (Only reason I get near them, is dealer only parts.)
Seriously; telling me to not buy a Tesla because I'll miss out on the dealership is like telling me not to...drawing a blank...no analogies are bad enough. Anybody?...lets skip the prison rape ones.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Can't make a better product? Try FUD (TM) for all your business needs!
Unfortunately, IBM or Microsoft probably have a business method patent on it.
*ducks to avoid flying chair*
-- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
Tesla has made an electric vehicle that doesn't make anyone with a sense of style want to puke, and that's a very good thing, but there's just a handful of things they need to do, IMO, to really knock the ball out of the park for electric cars:
1) One needs to be able to charge it quickly, perhaps with an upper limit of about 10 minutes or so, sufficiently to go approximately as far as one could expect go on a tank of gas in a typical car of today. I would not expect to be able to charge it this quickly on conventional house current... it probably would require a dedicated type of charging circuit. But this would make recharging a car at such places not significantly more time consuming than filling up a car with gas, and would make owning an electric vehicle vastly more convenient than it currently is.
2) Charging infrastructure needs to be ubquitous, so that if you can drive there in a regular vehicle, you should be able to get there and back in your electric car as well.
3) The pricing structure for an electric car should be comparable to that of an otherwise similarly equipped gas-powered vehicle... and should not carry a premium cost that is almost equivalent to buying an additional automobile. Making them affordable, in addition to the other two points, will mean that there's no reason for people not to drive one.
If or when Tesla, or any electric vehicle manufacturer, can hit all three of the above points, I'd dare say that the writing will finally be on the wall for the age of gasoline, and I think electric cars could outnumber gasoline vehicles on the road within a decade.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
"...Tesla's stores and go-to servicing can't handle high demands. Naturally he said Mercedes has the "whole network" to put customers minds' at ease."
Yes, I feel so much more at ease knowing there is an entire network of highly trained and certified rip-off artists across the country ready to turn my $35,000 Mercedes into a $60,000 pain-in-the-ass when it breaks down and needs to visit a "certified" repair shop.
"There is a reason that Jim Rogers drove around the world in a Mercedes."
Uh, yeah, a one-of-a-kind purpose-built Mercedes counts about as much as an army tank in this discussion. If you want to make claims about traversing the globe, impress me with an actual product demonstration, not a bullshit one. I would hope one would be able to traverse the globe in a custom-built vehicle that likely exceeded $500K in total costs, regardless of who built it.
Maybe the relationship is over and Mercedes is feeling a little bitter?
Like, about a million years ago or something.
Times change, the world moves on.
Stick Men
I don't know about anyone else, but I can absolutely say with certainty that I hate having my balls squeezed at the gas pump every time I go to fill up my gas guzzling piece of crap van by these greedy bastards casually price fixing every gallon. My money would be all in with Tesla, [if I had money], not some other ball busting corporation that can't get its head out of its ass.
He drives around the world just to get his stupid name on the record books. I bet when he gets home, he just leaves the car running because what does he care about waste or the environment. Sounds like a selfish asshole to me...and thank you Slashdot for promoting shit like him.
Here are several in various price ranges.
http://www5.mercedes-benz.com/...
My transmission on a Mercedes 2011 GLK SUV just died. The repair cost is $12,000, its almost not worth repairing.
Unfortunately its not covered by warranty - cut off at 80,000 km, we have 83,000 km.
Ironically, just this afternoon I spent 30 minutes on the phone with Tesla to discussing ordering my replacement vehicle. Needless to say:
New Mercedes cancelled.
New Tesla imminent.
Will be here in July.
Maybe Mercedes should focus of the reliability of their transmissions vs focusing on competitors. I will never buy another Mercedes - ever.
PS: You would think having purchased 4 vehicles from Mercedes and plans for another, that would mean something. But you would be wrong. Their side of the story - we were late for our Series A service - hence tough luck.
What he really should have said is all automakers are frightened to death by Tesla and embarrassed beyond all bounds that they did not create Tesla's products. Obviously there is a conspiracy afoot to stop Tesla in its tracks as every state that Tesla sells in has suits claiming that they should not be allowed to exist. The industry is reacting as if Tesla had invented a car that could run for free on a drop of water. The powers that be see the handwriting on the wall and they are have a fit.
Once players such as Mercedes and Porsche enter the luxury electric vehicle market, he questions whether Tesla will be able to maintain its current, growing success.
Tesla isn't aiming to be in the luxury market. They will be gradually reducing the price of new models until they are affordable for non-rich people. If Tesla can deliver a superior product for less than a Merc where do you think consumers will go?
I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
So Mercedes is moving from the "then they laugh at you" to the "then they fight you" stage? Or is it from the "first they ignore you" to the "then they laugh at you" stage?
If the latter, that sounds like nervous laughter.
Thats why all my services are pre-paid and I have an extended warranty. Paying for the service visits in advance saved me about 40%.
Apparently, that's their impression.
The simple notion that it a "station charger" for a Teslas is impossible - and adaptable from existing tech - is really too ignorant to bear further comment.
This would be hard to take seriously even if it wasn't peppered with so many canned marketing buzzwords. Even if another automaker manages to outdo Tesla (highly unlikely at the rate they are going), it will only be because Tesla blazed the trail that terrifies the existing automakers so much that they wouldn't venture it even when GM had a perfectly good all-electric vehicle over two freaking decades ago. I hope Tesla buries all of them, and Mercedes would be a good start.
Pretty sure a little negative spin isn't going to hurt electric cars much.
Let's see. instant acceleration. very few moving parts to break down, i guess the battery will wear out in a hundred thousand miles, but a robot can swap in a new battery. a very quiet engine at highway speeds. no expensive gasoline. refueling anywhere there is electricity. under $100 thousand. Mercedes' cars are known for breaking down... i think mercedes is screwed.
Mercedes should be nervous. After all, Tesla is probably the only automobile company who's CEO has his own private ICBM factory.
(Okay, technically the Space-X Falcon series are launchers, not ICBMs. Tomayto, tomahto.)
New Mercedes electric minivan has a Tesla touch
Apr 17 2014, 08:04 ET
Mercedes-Benz (DDAIF) has started production of an electric B-class minivan.
Tesla Motors (TSLA) is providing the 28kWh lithium-ion battery and electric motor for the line.
The model will go on sale this summer in the U.S.
http://seekingalpha.com/news/1...
Not a single one of them thought of adding an electric motor to go from 0 to 2 mph.Going from 2 mph to 60 using IC engines would be a cinch. They could reduce the weight of the engine, they did not have to engneer them to have enough torque at the low end to get the car off to start. The optimization curves will be totally different, and they could have gotten whole seconds shaved off. Like Tesla showed them when it debuted.
They saw diesel electric locomotives replace steam engines in just one decade in 1950s. They know how well electric motors work as traction motors. We are not talking about battery cars, electric cars or even hybrids. Simple lead-acid battery with enough juice to pull the car from rest to 2mph may be five times. Total battery capacity less than half a mile of range. This they could have done back in the 1960s. They could have had the bragging rights on the quarter mile time and 0 to 60 time pissing contests. But no. They did not think of strapping a small motor to remove the low end torque requirement in their ic engines.
They were very straight jacketed think with in the box conformists. May be these mechanical engineers hated the electrical engineers and did not want them anywhere near their crown jewel the power train of the automobile.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
So let me get this straight. Mercedes expects their cars to crap out nearly the moment they drive off the lot and they will happily sell you a subsidy to cover their cost on a warranting the vehicle you purchased? Holy sh*t that's quite a business model, sign me up!.
Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once
Ha. That really rocks.
I'm saving up for a cheaper Tesla model (or used Model S) in 2017. If my Audi makes it that long. The automatic transmission sometimes forgets which gear it's in, and can't shift anymore. As Teslas are single gear-direct drive, they don't have that problem.
Congrats!
So you're saying they have some insight ...
Here's a whole family (yes, kids and all) that has travelled the world in a mostly stock 1928 Graham Paige.
Jim Rogers wasn't brave enough to do the same thing unless he spent a million bucks on a ridiculous custom built SUV first. What a joke.
about 7 years ago; SLK 350. It was plagued with lots of electrical problems and a few mechanical issues. It was fun to drive, but I will never buy another Mercedes again. Simply not worth the money. I would definitely consider buying a Tesla if I was in the market for a car like that.
Yeah, new account that makes claims of grander? Fucking FUD. There's so much of this around Slashdot anymore.
The standard warranty was 100K miles but I drive about 30K miles a year so I needed more to last me the 3-5 years I expect to keep the car.
My transmission on a Mercedes 2011 GLK SUV just died. The repair cost is $12,000, its almost not worth repairing.
First you bought an SUV which only an idiot would buy, then you did not maintain it properly.
And you blame the company for your problems with the product ?
You lack both intelligence and character. Intelligence would have prevented you from
buying an SUV in the fist place, and character would allow you to admit that your failure
to properly maintain the vehicle meant that you have a considerable amount of culpability
with respect to the problem your vehicle had.
If I was the Mercedes rep I'd laugh in your face and tell you we don't even want you as
a customer. Idiots are not the demographic Mercedes seeks as customers.
I sympathize. I have a similar story about my former Benz. At 70K miles I had repair problem with the motor. MB's fault really, had to have been set up wrong at the factory. Cost of repair was about $7K. They put in $2K, but I had to fork over the rest. I will never buy another Benz. I have owned several cars. None ever had a catastrophic failure at 70K miles. Of course the dealers will tell you that is why you should buy an extended warranty. My response is the policy and its renewal fee would have been about as much, so it would have been worthless to me. After I decided to get rid of the Benz, I was quite tempted to buy a Model S after driving one. Ultimately I thought I would wait until they add a few features I like that are available on other cars. When the warranty is about to expire on the new car I will buy the Tesla.
It's also worth noting what a huge difference there is when buying a car from a dealership and a Tesla from the store. I think 99% of us share the opinion that buying a car from a dealership is the most insulting retail experience there is. Dealers know it but don't care since the franchise laws protect them from reasonable market forces. No wonder they are all trying to stop Tesla from selling direct to consumers. But car dealers are not the only industry that plays the regulatory game. Just one of the worst abusers.
Imagine how much harder physics would be if electrons had feelings! -Feynman, maybe
WTF are you doing even considering non-warranty service from a dealer?
I bet it's just a clutch and the dealer is fucking you, yet again, this time with ghost pepper and crunchy peanut butter lube.
Having purchased 4? That makes you are repeat chump. Like someone who keeps sending $50K to Nigerian scammers.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
"Tesla won't sell out to us for a price we can afford"
When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
May as well be a buggy manufacturer in the early 1900s mocking Henry Ford as not having the infrastructure to support automobiles. "Look!" says the CEO, "His automobiles have to be serviced by one of those rare individuals that knows how, but our horse and buggy work everywhere!"
Prior to widespread adoption of internal combustion engines, gas stations (as such) didn't exist. Prior to widespread adoption of the telegraph and the telephone, infrastructure supporting those innovations didn't exist. Prior to the widespread adoption of the Internet, there weren't millions of miles of high speed data cables crossing the globe with signals directed by complex high-speed routing devices. Prior to the widespread adoption of cell phones and smartphones, there was no infrastructure to support them either.
Yet all these things thrived because the infrastructure grew with their adoption. When someone has a car and needs fuel, he has to figure out the logistics of that himself and it can seem unworkable on a larger scale. When half his neighbors have cars and need fuel, an enterprising young businessman comes along and opens a gas station. When Elon Musk sells a few hundred high-end sports cars (the Roadster) around the world to some rich people, he and his customers have to work out some painful logistics for things like service and it can seem unworkable on a larger scale. Check back in five years and see how much trouble it is to run around in the latest Tesla car then.
Tesla's working because they started at the high end of the market where margins are high and logistics are easier. They've used those high margins to push through massive infrastructure improvements around the US and in other richer areas to allow for an even more rapid adoption. They've established a brand by promising big and delivering bigger, then continuing to deliver long after the sale (improving an existing car? who's ever heard of such a thing?!) Mercedes can claim Tesla isn't a threat, but they're a few years away from either having to spend a fortune trying to catch up or they'll end up paying Elon Musk licensing fees for his tech.
-- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
I'm curious if the residential electric grid (the part in most single-family home residential neighborhoods) is up to the task of charging electric cars if there's some rapid shift to EVs.
There's maybe 50 houses on my block, and say 75 cars. If half go to a Tesla-style car and charge at 10kW, my block alone suddenly has a new load on the neighborhood grid of nearly 400kW. Are we wired for that, especially in A/C season?
Suddenly that looks like a whole lot of grid demand.
He purchased a Mercedes SUV! Too much money, too little common sense.
Offer me my choice of a Tesla or a Merc, it's a Tesla.
After I've got my Tesla, offer me again, and I'd choose a second Tesla over a Merc.
Offer me a Merc or nothing, and I'll take the Merc - then sell it to buy a Tesla.
The maximum potential is determined by battery chemistry and number of cells. In the Tesla, the nominal potential is 375 Volts.
Remember "News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters"? Help make it a reality again! http://soylentnews.org
Maybe Mercedes should focus of the reliability of their transmissions vs focusing on competitors. I will never buy another Mercedes - ever.
Guess what? It's not just Mercedes. I don't know where Mercedes gets their transmissions, but the automatics (tiptronic or not - actually, in some cars, it's a software and shifter issue only) that VAG gets from ZF seem to be quite crap. The A8Q I'm working on right now is on its second transmission, and the first one was replaced in about year two. As leaky as this car is, I wouldn't likely have bought it if it had been on the original slush box.
Germany was the watchword for quality up until the late eighties. But German cars are now, I am quite sorry to say, shit. My father once explained to me (repeating something a wise man must have said to him) that the Germans believed in using the best parts and the Japanese believed in doing the best design such that you could get away with the cheap parts. My experience is that these are in fact the design strategies employed by these nations. The problem with the German strategy today is that the companies making their parts are now making shit. Bosch is now turning out at least as many total turds as roses, for example, if not far more, and all of these German cars have Bosch ignition and traction control (etc.) systems — all the VAGs, all the Mercedes, and all the BMWs, as far as I can tell. These are both exquisitely expensive and poorly designed, vulnerable to water intrusion and for some reason these days typically mounted in the engine compartment. Except my LHD D2 A8, which puts the ABS control module in a really annoying place up under the dash instead of upside down in the E-box right under the PCM where they put it on the RHD vehicles, even more annoying.
Meanwhile, there are very few things that were annoying back in the W123, W126 Mercedes days in the 1980s. Turbo oil return on the diesel was crap. The engine mounts are a bit overcontrived to the point that you can't really torque all the bolts without a special tool, or taking off a bunch of stuff.
PS: You would think having purchased 4 vehicles from Mercedes and plans for another, that would mean something. But you would be wrong. Their side of the story - we were late for our Series A service - hence tough luck.
It's the economy, brother.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Which Audi is it? I guess it's a pretty well solved problem (if spendy) to put a six speed into the A8
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
The Tesla is an expensive proof of concept. It basically features a Camry hybrid with an iPad inside, plus obviously some very expensive batteries. I think both makers will continue to do well, but for the money I would rather have an $80,000 Mercedes over a Tesla any day.
Just posting to notice the obvious grammatical error.
Customers' minds
NOT
Customer minds'
Why, you ask? Because the possessive applies to the plural customers. It is their minds that are put at ease. QED.
Huh? Converting an automatic car to a manual transmission is almost never a good idea. You're much better off just selling it and buying another (used) model that has the stick-shift from the factory. There's way too many differences between them, especially with modern cars which likely have different engine computers. Even in older cars without the software factor it's a giant PITA.
10 or so years before they go out of business to the competitor they said wasn't good enough.
It sounds to me like Mercedes is scared shitless.
Oh, you mean like the SLS electric? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gFGX43vubM
Quit hatin' Mercedes.
You might want to take a look at edmund's long term road test of their tesla. Its on its third battery/drive train at 30K miles. One joke was that maybe a 10K service requirement is a new drivetrain/battery. It is eating tires because of misalignment. You can tell edmund's really wants to love all aspects of the car and granted it is a nice driving car, but reliable it aint. Several commenters at edmunds wonder why they have not lemon lawed their unit it is so bad.
Huh? Converting an automatic car to a manual transmission is almost never a good idea.
Who told you that? It's often very easy.
You're much better off just selling it and buying another (used) model that has the stick-shift from the factory.
Except a lot of Audis weren't offered with a MT in the USA, so you have to buy a substantially different car. And new car, new problems.
There's way too many differences between them, especially with modern cars which likely have different engine computers. Even in older cars without the software factor it's a giant PITA.
It usually isn't much of a PITA at all, there are a number of such swaps that are very simple and commonplace, like Mustang or F-Series swaps. In the Audis, it's usually a simple matter of a recode, or replacement of a module with a relatively inexpensive used one. Going to an automatic is often a PITA, because of wiring issues. Unless, of course, you're installing a pre-electronics automatic with a VRV or similar.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
You might want to take a look at edmund's long term road test of their tesla. Its on its third battery/drive train at 30K miles. One joke was that maybe a 10K service requirement is a new drivetrain/battery. It is eating tires because of misalignment. You can tell edmund's really wants to love all aspects of the car and granted it is a nice driving car, but reliable it aint. Several commenters at edmunds wonder why they have not lemon lawed their unit it is so bad.
No, they are on their third "drive unit", which sounds like the speed control in the car. The drive train (or power train) of a car is something completely different.
Enigma
So you drove around the world. Good for you.
Ms. Clarenore Stinnes did that 85 years ago.
(Good thing there was no Saudi Arabia at the time).
Just 5-6 years ago, airbus, esp. the Germans inside of Airbus, were blasting SpaceX and saying that it would never be a threat to them. Now, they want 10's of billions / year in subsidies. Basically, they are in deep trouble.
Now, along comes the CEO of a company that I would say is HIGHLY overrated, and says that Tesla is overrated. Wait for just 3 more years. MB, Audi, Porsche, etc. buyers will realize that they produce nothing but expensive junk.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Mercedes may pooh-pooh that market, but I know of another German automobile manufacturer who seems interested enough.
I don't read articles written by children.
It'll be a long while until gasoline is so expensive that updating the power grid to handle electric cars makes sense.
The same upgraded power grid or the nuclear reactors that would certainly be involved in powering it, since no other method would even come close despite what the wind and solar boosters would have you believe, could also be used to produce artificial gasoline from coal, natural gas or even sea water feedstocks using gas to liquids technologies. The US Navy is exploring these same technologies to produce jet fuel from sea water and have had some success on an experimental scale.
You should never have bought 4 MB's. They really do SUX. Highly overpriced for what you get and breaks down far too often (though it was more of the ones prior to 2000 that were horrible).
We are waiting for the Model X and then we will decide which way to go.
In light of how SpaceX has destroyed Airbus, I am amazed that MB, Audi, Porsche, etc have the attitude that they do. Yes, they will have the German gov. forcing everybody to buy their crap, but outside of Germany, it will not happen.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
It is the market that will determine whether Tesla has potential, not its competitors.
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
I think everybody is missing the point of how dangerous Tesla really is to traditional car makers.
Mercedes is still Mercedes, let's not try to fight that argument, they build anything that has 4 wheels, from F1 to sedans, trucks, vans, you name it, they have it.
Tesla is a disruptive technology, search for the book called innovator's dilemma, how a company which is always listening to it's customers, fails to risk anything new can go irrelevant very fast. Mercedes won't build electric cars for the simple fact it will cannibalize it's entire range once people realize they don't need it.
Let's take the big one, range: The truth is that 90% of S Class owners will rarely need more than 250 miles daily. Let's be honest, if you have an S Class, you would likely travel by plane/first class, not sit 10 hours in an S Class, as comfortable as it is, it's a matter of time lost.
And Mercedes knows that very well, BMW does too, and everybody in the high range. They basically offer something you will rarely use.
Second, servicing, yes, let's be honest, we can't compare 100 years worth of time constructing a dealer/service network worldwide, with Tesla which is 7 years old. But Tesla can fight this by simply not having hardware failures. When you battery fails, you go in, they replace it, and you will have a 5 or 10 year old car which is still functional as it was in the first day. And Mercedes knows that too. Try buying a 2001 S Class and see how it works, and then try to find parts for it.
The problem for Mercedes is, that the complexity they need to do all that fancy night vision/pedestrian detecting/road holding/autopilot things is mostly software, and it's by far much easier to implement in an electric car where you have no gearbox, no liquid fuel to control, no camshaft, nothing, just basic electric software controlled controllers like in traditional robots. And let's be honest, the IT revolution did not come from Germany, it came from Silicon Valley, and if anyone has the power to do advanced software/hardware automated systems, it's them. Germans are far better at following and improving rather than innovating. They just like to be safe, stable and not risk anything.
Tesla has still a long way to go, but once the price go down, it would take the world by storm, because you simply rarely need more than 250 miles range daily, and the feeling of having a full tank each morning is simply unbeatable by the traditional dirty/smelly gas station experience.
The answer I wanted to write here:
Yeah, just look at Apple.
Apple released their smartphone. And then Ericsson, Nokia and Motorola relased theirs. .. oh wait.
Guess the name of the company supplying Mercedes with drive-trains for their B-class EV.
Go on, guess.
Give you a clue. It's five letters and starts with a T.
If it helps, the same company is also supplying Toyota with the electric drive-train for their Rav4-EV.
"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers"
Even if Thomas J. Watson never actually said it, the quote fits well here. Or you could say "company says competitor has limited potential, news at 11".
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
We don't have enough electricity, nor the infrastructure to distribute it, if EVs were to suddenly become the norm
If the US could afford to suddenly convert the entire vehicle fleet to Tesla's (or equivalent), it could probably also afford to replace the grid too.
However, if the US gradually upgrades its vehicle fleet over time, as happens in the real world, then demand on the grid would rise slowly and predictably, allowing infrastructure planners to plan out their upgrades for the next couple of decades.
And since the majority of plug-in BEV's will be charging at night, [**] it will be some years before the night-time demand merely equalled the daytime peak that the grid is already capable of delivering. The income generated by this increase in night-time demand, which comes almost free to the network providers, will easily fund the first few rounds of grid-upgrades. (Unless everyone is stupid. Which is admittedly an option when it comes to essential US infrastructure.)
[** daytime charging would mostly be through "supercharge" stations, which will have their own higher capacity lines from suppliers, as most commercial heavy electric users do.]
Science is all about firing a drunk pig out of a cannon just to see what happens.
The limiting factor for electric cars is the availability of electricity. Convert 13.02 million barrels / day of transportation petroleum to BTUs, account for the 35% or so efficiency of the IC engine, and then battery charging (90%) and battery efficiency (90%.) Got a nice big number? Divide that by the number of very large wind machines like the Vestas V164 8MW machine, and then multiply that by maybe 3 to account for wind conditions that are less than optimal for 8 megawatts of production. Will there be a bird left alive in the sky with wind chargers as far as the eye can see? I'm saying wind because it is relatively cheap for green energy, and we can actually build them, unlike nukes. So, if you don't mind a landscape that has turning wind machines as far as the eye can see from ANY vantage point in the country, then we can probably supply power for all of the US's transportation. The question then is how fast we can build them. At least if we're using wind to charge batteries, we can sidestep the fact that the wind doesn't blow all the time, and we can truck / rail the batteries to where they have to be to exchange them for spent batteries like the Tesla "Supercharger" stations which sidesteps the evirowacko / NIMBY crowd that will keep the necessary wires from being strung to distribute the power.
Let's let TOM speak shall we:
"I'm having great conversations on this site with one of my alias accounts" - by Tom (822) on Monday April 07, 2014 @02:29PM (#46686259) Homepage
FROM -> http://slashdot.org/comments.p...
APK
P.S.=> Tom *tried* to libel me & failed after I destroyed him in a technical debate on hosts files... result?
Tom ended up "eating his words" here http://slashdot.org/comments.p... spiced with "the bitter taste of SELF-defeat" + HIS FOOT IN HIS MOUTH
... apk
... because they paid him to drive a Mercedes.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
First you bought an SUV which only an idiot would buy
My late father-in-law designed inertial guidance systems. He worked on the Apollo program and the Trident missile. And he bought a Mercedes SUV, so it's clear it isn't an SUV that only an idiot would buy. He needed a vehicle that could pull a small boat trailer but had reached an age where he wanted a vehicle that was a little easier on the tuckus than a pickup truck. As such it wasn't a bad choice for him, especially as he had the dough to pay the eye-popping maintenance costs.
I prefer small cars myself, but I've driven a few SUVs and the Mercedes wasn't a bad choice for someone who wanted a truck that drives more or less like a car and doesn't care about the cost.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Another common wisdom is that electric vehicles is the future of gasoline. People don't realize that it's not going to happen because it's not possible to replace all the current cars with electric cars. Let me explain that to you. Electricity is not a power source. The source is uranium (in the case of nuclear reactors), oil, sun or wind. If we produce electricity from oil and use that electricity to run a car, it's less efficient than powering the car with oil, as it requires more oil to power the same car if we make electricity with it and run the car with that electricity.
Electric car will remain a niche forever, because producing electricity to power 10% of our current cars would require 10 times as much nuclear reactors as we currently have. We just can not produce that much electricity and anyway it wouldn't be efficient.
Oil price are going to increase dramatically in the near future as the reserve is exhausting. Electric vehicle is not a solution to that problem. The only real long term solution is to travel less: remote working. Traveling will become very expensive in the future and public transportation will be more developed and efficient.
Don't expect the electric cat to replace the gasoline gar ever. They will both disappear, but the electric car will disappear first.
Buying a car from a dealership is pretty straightforward. You do your research, which is dirt simple on the internet these days, and you do a simple calculation. Then you actually talk to a salesman.
First, do all of the car shopping, test drives, and other product inspection stuff. This is usually the fun part. At the end of this step, you should know what kind of car you're going to buy.
Next, the real research. The hardest part is finding the real, honest-to-god, true invoice price for the car. There are several sites that list this information for just about any make/model you want to name. Getting those sites to cough it up is not always easy. Edmunds used to post invoice prices (along with "invoice prices", the adjusted cousin of the real thing), but hid them behind eighty hojillion ads and scripts. I resorted to using Firebug to strip away things I didn't want from the Edmunds.com site until I got to the useful information. More recently, I've had to rely on lesser known sites, since pressure from the industry keeps the big players (Edmunds, KBB, Cars.com, etc.) from posting this information.
Once you have that actual, what-the-dealer-actually-pays-the-manufacturer-to-get-one-on-the-lot price, you can work from there. Subtract the kickbacks, incentives, and other bullshit discounts normally used to confuse you. This "base price" is what the dealer actually has to pay. Now add 5%. Do this across all major trim levels and compare them. Decide whether you want to add features, and understand that those do not fall under the invoice-minus-incentives-plus-5% function. As aftermarket parts and labor, those cost what the dealer decides to charge you. Accept that, then decide what you can afford or can live without.
Now pick a dealer that has the car in stock. Cars.com is useful for this, since a lot of dealers list their vehicles on that site. Know which dealers have the exact make/model/trim/color you want, and rank them by whatever you like. Distance from your home, friendliness, reputation in the community, whatever works for you. Then go one-by-one to those dealers in order from best to worst.
When you get to a dealership, pick any available salesman from the floor. The younger/less-seniority, the better. He will be your mouthpiece to the sales manager, so don't get the idea that you'll take advantage of him because he's green. But picking him has two effects: 1) he wants the sale because he's young and needs to build his salesman cred, and 2) the sales manager will think you're a "yokel" that can be taken advantage of, putting himself at a perceived advantage, but a real disadvantage given your prior research. The salesman will probably expect you to test drive the car. If you feel like you want to, go ahead. They will run your credit report at this time. If you don't want them to do that, either block it at the credit bureaus or tell them you don't authorize it. Or tell them you're paying in cash, but from that moment onward, you're a "mark". It's usually better to phrase it as having "external financing", which still tells them you're not buying into their terrible, fraudulent lending schemes, but you are serious about the car.
When it gets to be negotiation time, state your price. Do not budge. Explain that you've determined that the car is worth exactly that much, no more and no less. If they insist that it's worth more, state the invoice price, state the incentives, explain the "base price", then explain that you're being generous to offer 5% profit. If they still push back, you can either move on to another dealer or start decreasing the profit margin. They're costing you time, which is money, and docking their pay for the ongoing hindrance to progress is going to strike a nerve. But most likely, they'll jump at the 5% offer anyway, as it's a pretty good deal for them. From there on out, you just have to resist their continual sales pitches for crap you don't need. If it costs extra, turn it down. If it's factory financing, turn it down.
More points for Tesla. Even with Mercedes perpaid service (you don't think it's actually free?), who wants to spend a Saturday or take off of work to sit in a dealership every 5000 miles? No thanks.
Even if what he said was true (which, gee, it is) - that's no reason to slam what he said.
I took a snippet from the log below. Note, it needed a tow truck, they replaced the battery & drive unit which requires the rear subframe removal. Now either the battery is not easily replaced contrary to reports of battery quick change from tesla, or the "drive unit" is more than a simple motor controller. In any case, even if it is just the dealer cannot fix a water leak, lemon laws apply. Here it has left them stranded, which certainly qualifies for lemon law. While I agree the tesla is a hoot to drive (a friend did test drive one) I don't know if I would run to buy a tesla because my mercedes is unreliable. It appears the tesla could be more unreliable. The drive unit is only one of many problems they are having. From Edmund's... When we last left our 2013 Tesla Model S, it was on the back of a flat-bed tow truck, having died on my colleague, Matt Jones. It spent the night in a tow yard and was delivered to the Tesla service department in West Los Angeles the following morning. ...
He called back about an hour later and said they would be replacing the drive unit and the high-voltage battery assembly. I asked Vince what caused the problems, but he said they don't open up the batteries at the service center. Like most warranty issues on new cars, the parts are replaced at the dealer and the old ones are sent to corporate headquarters for the engineers to study and see what went wrong. The service invoice didn't give me much more to go on, "During vehicle logs review, found fault related to internal drive unit failure. Replaced complete drive unit assembly per TDS case #9571."
If you're keeping score, our Model S is now on its third drive unit: the one that came with the car, the one that was replaced in November, and this latest one. And that wasn't the only thing that was replaced on this service visit.
After the power unit was replaced, the Model S needed a four-wheel alignment. That's because the rear subframe must be removed to extract the power unit.
You're right, after reading the previous log entries where they replaced the "drive unit", it does sound like more than a speed control. While the Tesla at Edmunds probably gets a little more abuse than the car in a single driver's hands (multiple drivers, none of whom own the car, pushing the limits to "see what it can do") that is still a lot of major failures in a short period of time.
Enigma
RIP John Pinette. But this ... whole situation reminds me of this skit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6YEpXS_ugU
paraphrased:
"Do you want the extended warranty?"
"Is it gonna break? if it is I'm not buying it!"
"It wont break, but you should get the warranty"
"... will it break?" ...
Most Mercedes, indeed, most luxury cars, are leased. Tesla has a new lease program. Lease the car, and it ceases to be your problem in 3 or 4 years.
Internet browsers are 'a trivial piece of software.' -Bill Gates
To answer the moron who wrote the article: "Hey Mercedes, where's your Model S competitor?" This one and others, are already better performers than the model s... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
This sounds like "freezing the market." It's a marketing strategy.
I'm going to "cop out" and suggest (if you're interested) you should search on this: marketing strategy "freeze the market"
There are much better explanations/examples out there than I could ever provide.
I've been accusing MS of using this strategy for years and their name appears in several of the results re releases of Xbox and more.
Now we can include Mercedes in this auspicious group of hucksters.
An effective "democracy" creates the illusion the people have a say in their government.
Tesla makes about $35k a car from selling California issued carbon credits to other vehicle manufacturers. If this bit of cronyism was stopped, they would have to raise prices, start charging people for Supercharger access, and nickel & diming their customers for stuff that they for free now or eventually go out of business. Their cars are expensive now and I don't think they could jack the prices up by $35k and still meet their sales goals where they can make a profit.
It should also be noted that Telsa sources several parts for their vehicles from Mercedes-Benz.
Extended warranties are, on the average, a waste of money. Since an expensive repair isn't likely to bankrupt you, you're usually better off without them.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
It looks like people are more interested in their own comfort and not the comfort of their grandchildren... Mercedes wants you to think Tesla (or any electric car) is about you... It isn't, it's about generations on down the road.
I don't care about its potential, I care whether it works or not.
He purchased a Mercedes SUV, THAT'S NOT A UNIMOG. Clueless.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
From a UK perspective, Tesla is a very compelling machine. I am lucky to run a Jaguar XF and keen to see how close the Tesla comes to what I believe is the "Yard Stick" it should be measured against.
The XF has been voted UK Executive car of the Year two years in a row and if I am careful, this 250hp car will nudge 60 miles per Imperial Gallon. Compared to a Tesla though, this XF (or any other Company car) is very pricey.
For example. my Business Miles rate for is 17 pence but for an Electric Car such as a Tesla, it plummets to just 3 pence. (Less than 20% running cost). And that is before you bring company car and environmental taxes into the mix.
So where Tesla will surely do well, is the UK - BUT as has been said, if the Model S is also a "Premium" car as well as a cheap to run car.
Mercedes? They like all other manufacturers will already have or be working on a Tesla rival, whether they say so or not. For many manufacturers though, fuel economy is a "niche" product in many parts of the world. They only thing making a Petrol or Diesel car much more expensive in the UK than an electric one isn't the technology - it's the TAX !
A pure electric first gear would marry the best torque range of electric motors would free the IC engine of its low end torque requirements. No battery, no regenerative braking or fancy nancy stuff.
That's the Chevy Volt. Modest engine and battery, good electric motor. The Honda FCX has electric drive, a fuel cell, and ultracapacitors for acceleration boost.
A pure electric transmission with an IC engine? That's a Diesel-electric locomotive. Works very well, especially with modern solid-state controls. Overkill for a car, where getting started isn't that hard and clutches are in slip for only a second or two. A huge win for trains, where getting all that mass moving is the hardest part of the job.
I own one of MB's older diesels 300TD), which have a certain reputation for durability. It really makes me sad how cheaply made their cars now are. I wouldn't touch a Benz made after the W124 era, they just seem like cheap junk that requires frequent and expensive service.
Tesla is doing damn near everything right in order to grow a brand. There is nothing more desirable in the price range today. My old oil burner will last me long enough to see a Tesla model I can afford (It'll take a while to fill in those next 300,000 miles) thanks to the kind of quality Mercedes USED to offer in a vehicle.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it! --Longbottle
Maximizing the inherent limitation of a disruptive technology and minimizing its threat to the status quo is the standard mistake made by incumbent technology companies. Even Mercedes isn't immune to the same mistake.
They are in good company. Microsoft and Intel dismissed the mobile computing market and Apple/Samsung. Now their businesses are are major risk (PC sales have had a compounded decline of 10-15% per year for about 5 years now - that's an exponential decline for those not CAGR-savvy).
ought to be enough for anybody.
Just substitute "gas engine" for "keyboard":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
Pat