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Will the Nissan Leaf Take On the Tesla Model S At Half the Price?
cartechboy (2660665) writes "Ask most people why they won't consider an electric car, and they talk about range anxiety. And I can easily imagine why 84 miles of range isn't enough. Now it sounds like Nissan is listening, as well as watching Tesla's success. The company plans to boost the Leaf electric car's driving range with options for larger battery packs. Not long ago Nissan surveyed Tesla Model S owners, and they probably heard loud and clear that longer driving range is very, very important. So it looks like the Leaf might get up to 150 miles of range, possibly by the 2016 model year. The range increase will come from a larger battery pack, possibly 36 or 42 kWh, and more energy-dense cells. Either way, clearly Nissan is looking to expand the appeal of the world's best-selling electric car, and increasing its driving range is pretty clearly a key to doing so. I just wish Nissan would ditch the weird styling while they're at it."
Where X miles is some unit that has no relationship to the actual amount of driving you do.
Sure, if you're an Australian Cattle Rancher crossing the route from Perth to Adelaide, maybe you care about having range.
Grandma who never drives outside of town? What is she worrying about?
as an off gridder they are pure drool material. 150 miles or run my house for 10 days? hmm...
in a survey, most people said they'd prefer it if it was a bit longer
Tesla is the Apple of the electric car world: even if Nissan comes up with equivalent models for cheaper, people will still prefer Teslas because they're perceived as hip or upmarket.
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
how much is it to replace it?
i can drive my honda CRV until it falls apart with some basic maintenance that doesn't involve spending thousands of $$$ on a new battery
and my honda doesn't cost $600 a year in an annual checkup like Tesla charges
Because, honestly, the leaf is *not* a good looking car.
m
In the immortal words of Socrates, who said; 'I drank what?'
I thought the whole reason that Tesla wants to build a huge battery factory in the US is because the world supply of deep cycle rechargeable batteries is hilariously dwarfed by the demand posed by any growth at all in the electric vehicle market.
I hope that eventually logic will prevail and properly organized mass transit (including maybe self-driving taxi cabs) will replace most of the private cars. Then we will not have to argue about the little details like individual vehicle range, styling or retail price.
As usual with a Slashdot article title ending with a question mark, the answer is no?
These are not the same class of vehicle. Around these parts there are quite a number of Tesla Model S's - in fact I would have gotten one myself if it had been possible to get it delivered before January 1 (long story, tax breaks) - and all the owners I know of are small to medium business owners with money to spare. Had they not gone for the Model S, they would have gotten one of the bigger models Audi, BMW, or Mercedes - electric or not. I can't see a single one of these folks getting a Leaf instead, not even at half the price.
Then again, maybe the target demographic for the Model S is different on your side of the pond ...
At a 150 mile range, that would be good enough for me to use on most of my regular weekend trips; I'm lucky enough to be able to walk to work, so I don't really need to drive much during the week. If they offered it as a convertible I'd be very likely to buy one (I know I'm in a minority in thinking that a convertible is essential). We're a family of 4, so we're always going to have a larger, longer range vehicle too, but for a stupid second car a convertible Leaf or Volt would get me to sell the 3 series convertible we have now.
I just wish Nissan would ditch the weird styling while they're at it.
This is why Tesla is getting so much public attention: the cars they make look like cars people actually want to drive. Stop making every electric car look like a midget minivan (a miniminivan?) and more people would actually buy them.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
I have leased a Leaf for the past year and I love it. It's not just a great electric car, it's a great car. The single speed transmission (not CV) is fantastic. You don't realize how obnoxious gear changes and engine noise are until you drive without them. It's like floating on a cloud.
My lease is $300/month, but I'm saving almost $100/month on gas. The electricity costs me about $30 per 1000 miles. Never having to stop at a gas station or get an oil change is nice.
They're not for everyone. If you have a house with garage that you can install a 220V outlet in, it's far more convenient. Having a second vehicle in the house for long trips is nice too. But I've probably traded cars with my wife out of necessity 2 or 3 times in a year.
It is an odd looking car, but every design decision was made to decrease drag, which is very important for range at highway speeds. I'm ok with function over form and I don't care what strangers think. The front and back seats are comfortable for normal sized adults, and there is plenty of cargo space in the back.
If you're in the market for a car that's going to spend a majority of its time going to and from work and short trips around town, you should really give the Leaf a test drive.
The biggest improvement that Nissan could make to the Leaf, at least in Austin, Texas, is to actually have a couple units on the dealer's lots.
Last time I visited a Nissan dealer, they just had Leaf brochures.
Look - you wanna sell a jillion Nissan Leafs? Make the look like THIS, and I would buy one in a fuckin' heartbeat. Electric cars don't have to look like lumpy golf carts.
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
Considering the price premium on electrics, and that this is a daily commute car not a long holiday trip car, it's probably far more economical to get a small, gas powered car.
As your second car.
I live in a country smaller than a lot of US states, and it's still too big to use something with 150 miles of range on holidays. So you can't even consider it as the first car. Or what am I supposed to do, stop in halfway and recharge for 8 hours?
I apologize for the lack of a signature.
It looks pretty cramped, but looks can be deceiving. I friend of mine got a Hyundai Veloster. It's a tiny little car, but once inside it's a remarkable vehicle. My friend is also nearly seven-feet tall. The car handles very nicely, and handling is important. It uses gas, but easily gets fifty-miles to the gallon. That's almost as good as electric for me. Not to mention it handles itself very well in the snow which is important where I live. With options he paid ~$30,000. It worked out so well his wife got one.
Brought to you by Carl's Junior.
The Tesla is not mind-numbingly depressing to drive, while the leaf is. The Tesla does not inspire people to laugh at you when you drive by, while the leaf does. Expanding the driving range for the leaf is a great start, now make a car that is enjoyable to drive and doesn't look like a child's toy.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
I'd bet that Nissan will be building a battery factory too.
$30,000 for a car that is equivalent to a $10,000 car that can be fuelled in minutes and has essentially unlimited range. If I get my imperial units right, you can by some 5000 gallons of fuel for this price ($4 per gallon seems to be the high end in the US) and drive about 200.000 miles @ 40mpg. And of course electricity isn't free either. The 50,000 kWh you need to drive this distance will cost you at least $5000 plus the price of at least one new set of batteries which are probably in the $10,000 range.
You may contemplate the numbers much more thoroughly than I did, while waiting a couple of ours for your Leaf or Tesla to charge up.
Nissan Leaf MSRP: about $29k, according to Google. The car I drive, which I bought new a few years ago but google indicates a new 2014 is still about the same price: about $18k. *There's* your big reason: ignoring range, even at half the price of the Tesla, electrics cars are still crazy expensive.
Everything is relative...
Bingo. My commute is 10 miles one way. The big town is 20 miles the other way. A very plausible trip is 10 miles to work, 30 miles to town, 20 miles home - 60 miles in one day. Given paranoia, I slap a x2 on there(I might get called into work again, another 20 miles, might forget to charge the night before, power outages, etc...), Thus I'd prefer a car with at least 120 miles of range. That's even without considering that a common camp site for me is 60 miles away. There's power there so I could trickle charge over the week end for margin, but it's something to consider. As is range losses due to heat/cold/age/etc...
As such, I say it's not just people want to pay for more than 'what they need', it's that most proponents of short-range EVs only look at median driving distances. Most purchasers of vehicles are going to be looking for a vehicle that satisfies the 90th percentile of their driving 'needs'.
It's hardly 'no relationship' as the AC said.
I don't read AC A human right
In an ideal world the anchor points and the battery interface would be standardized and third party companies will come up with the push/pull pack battery rentals. But I expect every manufacturer to come up with proprietary non-interchangeable walled gardens of batteries, connections etc.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
Four or five years ago, I bought an efficient, reliable compact car. I hoped (and still do) that it would last me for 15 years, and that the next car I bought would not use fossil fuels.
My family has another vehicle, but we usually take my car for size and efficiency. The holdups we would have to buying an electric (sooner than later) are:
We don't have range-anxiety because of the other vehicle, and frankly none of us drives much anyway. We just wouldn't be able to charge the car in our quasi-urban living situation (which rather disappoints me).
* This has led to some amusement when the dealership calls and asks if I want to trade up to a newer model "for the same or lower monthly payment." Apparently they are unwilling to give me a new car for free.
For supposedly smart people, you're a bunch of farking sheep.
You realize that "Range Anxiety" is like the "Big Bang Theory" in that it's completely valid and someone in marketing is just trying to mock something they don't want you to believe in, right?
It's not anxiety; some (most) people are accustomed to refueling their primary mode of transportation in under 10 minutes. We have *ALL* had to stop and pay too much for gas, or stop when we're really late for work because we didn't plan exactly right.
Cut the range in half, multiply the time by 3 (I'll be generous here). It's not Anxiety, it's a LIMITATION.
I work in Sustainable Transportation (more on modes, less on fuel types) and every time I talk to an EV owner, they all admit to having a fully separate gasoline-powered vehicle for long distance trips OR they integrate some form of car rental. Why? Because charging takes too long and they can't drive from Orange County to San Francisco in any EV on the market.
When EVs hit zero charge, they're done for 4 hours. That's not acceptable for most travelers.
"But Level III chargers are coming!" -- No they're not. They're a pipe dream to sell EVs, but will not ever materialize but for the Tesla owners nearby. They're expensive (to build and thus to use), taxing on the grid, and no one's willing to actually invest in them for financially sustainable public use.
EV adoption due to range and charge anxiety will continue to be a problem until either battery swapping is perfected or until another fuel source is adopted.
If everybody's needs were identical, we would not have the variety of vehicles that we have. I live in Boston but as an IT consultant have to lug stuff around often to my clients and also ferry my teenage son to places not easily served by public transport. I drive under 30 miles in a normal day and need something small that I can easily park on the street, so I leased a Smart electric. Real world range is 40 miles winter, 60 miles rest of the year, I charge it every night and I can park it anywhere, hell, the lease on the car is less than the gas I sued to spend on my jack of all trades SUV that I have sidelined. In short, it is the perfect car for me (other than looking foolish as hell) but it would be the completely wrong car for most people. Horses for courses.
Tesla and Leaf are not in the same category even when adjusted for range. Tesla is normally regarded luxury car like Mercedes, BMW, Lexus category and Leaf is considered as an alternative to Corolla and Prius. Even if Leaf range is same, it won't dent a sale of Tesla as I don't see any buyer overlap.
I would buy the nissan leaf it wasn't the ugliest electric car i have ever seen.
When the Leaf first was introduced, people in the electric vehicle industry were floored that the Leaf relied on air cooling for the batteries, and at that it is passively cooled. I cannot imagine continuing this with a larger pack; while the load per cell goes down, if you are trying to make a denser pack you will need to include liquid cooling to pull heat out. Liquid cooling is more expensive than air cooling to develop/produce, so it will be interesting to see what Nissan comes up with in the final implementation.
I thought the whole point of Tesla was to make luxury sports cars. Is the Nissan Leaf a luxury sports car? If not, what is the point of this obvious comparison of non-sports car features?
I just paid $19k for a Jetta TDI that routinely gets me 50-60mpg on the highway.
Asking me to pay $30K for a car I can only drive 50 miles at a time is kinda silly. Asking me to pay $90K for a car I can only drive 150 miles at a time is just about equally as silly. Both work out to about $600 per "mile at the time."
I'd ride a motorcycle. Its just far enough that I'd save a bunch of time not walking. Of course I'm always looking for an excuse to ride...
There are gas stations all over the place. Driving down the interstate in the US, every exit has at least 2 gas stations. So, if one isn't paying attention and the low fuel light comes on, it's no buggy.
With an electric, I'm gonna have to really pay attention and make sure I know where the charging stations are - Walgreens in my case.
And, I can fill up in 5 minutes and be able to drive another 300 miles in my Civic.
With charging, I will have to plan on hanging out for what? About 4 hours?
Shit!
A good chunk of the day, the car is down charging.
When they can get 300 miles and a charging time of less than an hour, then I will think of electric cars.
If you want to drive electric, but can't resolve the range anxiety issues, seriously look at a Chevy Volt. If the 4 seater size fits your lifestyle, it is a GREAT car. Even my Leaf friends admit it. ;)
Proof is: I get ribbing becuase I do still burn SOME gas (zero gas is part of the EV mantra) but then when we ned to go to Austin for a conference - do we take a Leaf? No. They suffer along just fine in the go-anywhere-all-day-long Volt.
1 Dachshund + 1 Dachshunds = A Paradox.
As a LEAF owner, I can tell you you get used to the style very fast, even if you weren't a big fan. That said, efficiency and noise control are mostly responsible for the way it looks today. The headlights look weird as they help reduce wind noise, and shape-wise, there is only so much you can do without giving up efficiency.
Just look at the RAV4 EV. I love that car, and while it might have a better range, it also has a massive battery (41.8 kWh vs 24 kWh) to compensate for the RAV4 EV's drag coefficient (it's just a regular SUV body with a Tesla drivetrain).
Last but not least, I think Nissan wants to keep the smoking hot looks for their Infinity product line. Just look at the Infinity LE electric vehicle concept to get an idea of what Nissan can do.
You would think that based on this logic more people would be interested in the Chevy Volt. For a lot of people it could be a purely electric car.
I work as an IT consultant and drive a lot, but it varies. One project was crazy far and my daily commute was nearly 90 miles, but there are days where it's under 20 miles and even weeks where I might not hit 90 miles total. For probably 3/5ths of my commuting I could be all-electric, but I'd never have to worry about range because I could always fall back to the gas generator.
For my wife, it would be all-electric.
"And the average age is going up, and electric cars will only make it go up more."
No, they'll make it go down if the batteries don't even last ten years. What do you think the average age would be if gasoline engines had to be replaced within ten years of purchase?
I could, I have the license, but I want a new guitar and new laptop more than I want a motorbike right now. They cost about the same.
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
Which '$600/year checkup'? As I mentioned the last time someone was babbling about the horrible maintenance costs of gasoline cars, our Civic has cost about $600 in five years, including replacing the battery and block heater when they failed.
"It should, you are just not maintaining it 4 oil changes at $50 each = $200 Each year you should do one other service item, This year I had brake fluid flushed at $325 (I'm up to $525) next year is a transmission fluid and filter at $600."
Holy crap you're getting ripped off. $325 for a brake fluid change? I had that done the last time our Civic was serviced, and it was a small fraction of that price.
And four oil changes a year? You're driving 40,000 km a year? Good luck doing that in a Leaf.
It makes a lot more sense if you are already a multi-car family - but that probably describes the majority of families in the US. Replace one car with EV and keep the other for long trips. Even if only 25% of the cars in the US were EV it could make a big difference.
It says that Nissan is debating the idea of better battery options. Well, that's great, there, Nissan. My guess is that the folks at Tesla aren't debating these things so much as always working on it. This is what separates the old companies from the new.
Yeah, I'm as old as my UID would suggest.
If they start approaching 200, I'll take another look. Also if they can make it less ugly. I'd still like to take one for a test drive though.
They already did. Right next to the new factory in Tennessee.
Actually, in Oregon and Washington, DC Fast Chargers are indeed a reality. We have enough coverage on major routes (and some minor ones) for a LEAF driver to manage a trip from the Canadian border to the California border. There's a big EV desert from there to the Bay Area, however.
For future reference, note that for Earth humans covering a mile on foot in 6 minutes - only 20% faster than 7:30 - is widely considered a "damn, that's guy's fit as fuck" benchmark. And that most people who aren't cyclists can't maintain 25mph on a normal bike, let alone a fold-up with 14 inch wheels.
You are correct that there are DC Fast Chargers in Oregon, but they have not been sustainably funded. At the moment, you can get a full charge $7.50 or unlimited charging for $20/month (http://evsolutions.avinc.com/services/subscriber_network/). That's a heavily subsidized system that mainly benefits those who have the disposable liquid capital to take advantage of a variety of incentives and buy a new car. Once they get that car, that car's fuel is highly subsidized?
Sounds like a plan that ignores the entire concept of income equity. Tax everyone, benefit the rich.
The existing system of EV charging is based on providing low-cost/no-cost fuel to the few early-adopters with high incomes. It does not scale well at all and the entire concept will fail quicker than it started if we ever have mass buy-in to plug-in EVs.
You can typically rent a gas 40 mpg car for about $6 a day if you need to travel far.
For everything else, electric rocks.
(caveat - the source of the electricity used determines the GHG climate change impact - if you use coal to make electricity, you better plug it into a solar or wind charge station)
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
You were doing good with the first half of the first sentence.
Then you got excited, overplayed your hand, and accidently outed yourself as "I have never run or exercised on a bicycle in my life, or I'd know that these numbers are wrong to the point of hilarious, but I'm still going to talk shit at people who drive."
Will a Dacia Sandero with the most basic options take on the BMW X5 at only 6000 Euro?
Some questions are asked just for the heck of it. Must be journalism or something.
They are not direct competitors. That's like comparing $10/bottle wine with $10,000/bottle. The people buying them will never cross into each other.
We also keep forgetting that electric cars can be CHARGED AT HOME, so every night it can recharge to full.
god forbid the author takes a step out of north america because the Nissan Leaf is so ordinary in styling that it disappears in to the general traffic in Europe, Asia and Australia.
Far more important than being "cool", the Tesla has 362HP of power avaliable, giving it a 0-60 time of 4.2 seconds.
The electric motor means you are never in the wrong gear - it's raw power when you need it.
The Nissan Leaf boasts 110HP, which will rocket your leaf to 60mph in about 10 seconds.
So, yeah, "the nissan leaf will take on the telsa model s" in the same way the toyota prius takes on the ford mustang.
[quote] Will the Nissan Leaf Take On the Tesla Model S At Half the Price?[/quote]
Falf the price, and at the batteries they're considering, half the range.
[quote] So it looks like the Leaf might get up to 150 miles of range, possibly by the 2016 model year. The range increase will come from a larger battery pack, possibly 36 or 42 kWh, and more energy-dense cells.[/quote]
The Tesla comes with a 60 or 85 kWh pack, looks great, and is a luxury sports sedan. The upgraded leaf will still have half the range of the Tesla, and none of it's style.
There's only one reason people choose the leaf over the Tesla, and that's because they can't afford the Tesla. I understand, it's not cheap, but you can't claim that the two are in the same category any more than you can compare the Nissan Sentra to the Mercedes S class.
Well, not quite. People who chose a Leaf over a Tesla are looking for an econo-box to comute with. The Tesla is a no-compromise luxury car. The Leaf is an unappologetic economy car. I could afford Tesla, a couple of friends have them and they are nice. But we are looking at a Leaf purely as an econo-box. I'm long past trying to impress people with what I drive.
Spend under 30K get close to 35 mpg combined and never worry about how long the charge will last. And you will still be ahead of the game even after paying for fuel.
...is to have a couple of leafs (leaves?) catch fire.
That'll make them edgy.
Although, this was meant to be funny, the more I think about it, it might actually work.
"With patience a ruler may be persuaded, and a soft tongue will break a bone."
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Hands down, this is the best car that I've ever driven. I had a 2004 Prius before this (my wife now drives it).
My lease is $250 per month, and I'm saving $130 per month in gas (and an extra $100 in car payment for the Matrix that I traded in, and my wife gets double-mileage in the Prius). My commute is 32 miles each way. I can charge up at work. I have an electric dryer plug in my garage (and I have gas dryer, so the electric dryer plug will never be used). My cost per day to get to work is $1.25 per day, but the Prius at 50MPG was $8 per day. My older car (a Neon) would be $16 per day, just to get to work and back! If it was an SUV, just double that (I would save $610 per month if I traded in an SUV for a LEAF)!
My electric bill, with the EV is actually CHEAPER than it was without! I just gave myself a raise, by leasing an EV.
This car handles like a dream, because the weight is all in the center of the bottom of the car, just like a Tesla. It is so quiet that all I hear on the freeway is my tires on the road, the wind, and the gas engines of all of the ICE cars on the road with me (as I drive past them with no other passengers in the carpool lane in California, avoiding all of the traffic). I don't miss the ICE for a second. It only takes a few seconds each day to plug in - no trips to the gas station, and most important, no care about the price fluctuations of gas!
Half the price but a leaf doesn't get you laid like a Tesla will.
You do realize that you're putting up a 420 horsepower engine up against the 145 HP motor in a volt? It also looks like they've gotten better with the volt:
Chevy volt: 8.9
Ford Mustang: 4.5
Electric motors are good, but they're only about twice as good as their horsepower rating would imply up against a gasoline engine, much less one optimized for 0-60 times.
I don't read AC A human right
First, not an owner, if you're looking to purchase I suggest doing your own research.
1. No the fees aren't necessary. For one, federal law interferes.
2. Good luck shutting all those radios off and keeping a functional car.
3. OTA updates have improved the car quite a bit, so stopping that isn't necessarily a good idea.
4. The fee actually covers a huge amount of work, it's probably worth it.
I don't read AC A human right
will allow most conceivable charge time options.
For me, it's how many years the battery will perform well, how much it costs to replace it, and what kind of environmental damage/costs for properly disposing of the old battery.
Twinstiq, game news
Stick a battery pack that can handle ~150 Km (~100 miles) into the EV. That covers just about everyone's daily city driving.
Then install a small gas or diesel generator into the car. All that generator does is charge the battery. It doesn't power the wheels, it doesn't drive the car, it doesn't to anything except provide electrical power to the car.
That way, you have the means to use the EV for long trips. Need more than ~150 Km range? Fill up the little gas tank and carry on as per normal.
The GM Volt is so close to being the perfect EV. All they have to do is remove the non-electric drivetrain, disengage the gas motor from the wheels, and tune the gas motor to run as a generator, and that's it.
I thought battery packs decrease their capacity with age. So right now you might be getting 80 miles, but you shouldn't be using that limit on a regular basis, or else you're going to be SOL in a few years. Also, do you get to use all of that range if you are trying to be nice to your battery? One guy here at work doesn't let his battery get below 20% charge for some reason related to battery life.
7 1/2 minute miles walking? I don't think you know what leisurely means.
I am known as pretty lazy though.
Oh and I forgot to mention: paying 100k for any car is downright ridiculous. My Tesla will be sourced from one of those people who doesn't want to pay for a new battery pack or someone who's wrecked one. I'm a hacker remember :D
The problem isn't da burbs, the problem is they were built without integrated light rail.
Much of the Northeast still has rail to the burbs and that's pure win. Work in the city, then escape it at the end of the day.
Getting a 150 mile battery will increase the area you can go to by 3.2 times. This is a big increase and will make a difference for lots of people. Lots of cities become within range from anywhere in the city, leaving just really large metropolitan areas still needing more.
It is also much more likely that there will be a conveniently placed quick charger somewhere you need for a longer trip.
Another benefit for 150 mile leaf is that longer trips become much more comfortable for some quick charging related reasons: On 2013 Leaf, to travel 250 miles, you at least three charging stops, if you charge on quick charger up to 80%, ie. 3*30 minutes. People rather take gas car. For 150 mile battery you need one stop, and it will be maximum 1 hour. This is because quick chargers are quick only at empty batteries, and slow down quite quickly as the battery fills up (on Leaf). Larger battery will pull peak 44-50kW much longer, so you likely get juice for the remainder of the trip faster. Also, 1 hour stop is more useful for things like attraction visit, shopping or eating a good meal.
Trips longer than 250 miles, which still would be sensible with 150 mile ev, fall into narrow crack between "taking a car" and "it is faster and cheaper to fly", and thus it is less likely to make substantial financial difference for most people. Trips as long as 250 miles are much more likely to include an overnight stop, so slower overnight charging, much more widely available, becomes an option.
I have been driving Leaf for 5 months now, and my backup gas car still continues to have count of trips made of zero. I still expect to need a gas car during summer time, but it is becoming more and more obvious that keeping a gas car sitting unused for 9 months per year is not the solution. Car sharing, rental, etc is obviously becoming a lot cheaper for those occasional longer trips. For me personally, there are two cases where 150 mile battery would make sense for me. Travels to neighboring towns, and getting to summer cottage a bit further away. Both are 15 - 20 times per year, totaling, say, 30 trips. Money-wise, it would save me about 50-100 in gas per trip (I'm Europe), plus rental or amortized cost of owned gas car, 50-100, totaling savings of 4k+ per year. So, savings from from 150 mile battery can be substantial, and it would be no-brainer to pay added price of 5k for the larger battery, with 1 year payback time. For larger price hike, it would likely need a bit more consideration.
Whether normal consumers are as analytical as I tend to be is another matter. Today they are more likely to buy the cheaper gas car based on sticker price and start loosing money after couple of years.
Statisticians warning: The above ignores environmental, comfort, noise and trade balance issues, and considers money only.
The problem isn't da burbs, the problem is they were built without integrated light rail.
The "problem" is that light rail is *never* a cost effective way to service the burbs. Infrastructure development of light rail systems is hugely expensive as are operating costs, so large in fact that nobody would be willing to pay the fares required to cover these costs. They end up being supported by government and subsidized out the wazoo in all but the most densely populated urban areas.
Buses are better options financially. They require much less costly infrastructure, are cheaper overall, and a whole lot more flexible. But even then, they cost more than you can charge in fares.
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