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Why China Is Worried About Japan's Plutonium Stocks

Lasrick (2629253) writes A fascinating account of why China is so worried about Japan's excessive plutonium stocks: combined with its highly sophisticated missile program, "Chinese nuclear-weapons specialists emphasize that Japan has everything technically needed to make nuclear weapons." It turns out that Japan has under-reported a sizable amount of plutonium, and there have been increasing signs that the country might be moving toward re-militarization. This is a particularly worrying read about nuclear tensions in Asia.

273 of 398 comments (clear)

  1. Hmm... by Nexion · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Not too worried about Japan... I wouldn't cut off their fuel supply however.

    1. Re:Hmm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Sad thing is I bet there are a good number of younger people around here who don't understand why you worded that sentence in the way you did and why you got a +5 as a result.

    2. Re:Hmm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I'll admit to being one of those younger people. Could you please explain?

    3. Re:Hmm... by amiga3D · · Score: 5, Informative

      Last time we cut off their fuel they bombed Pearl Harbor. They don't teach history anymore?

    4. Re:Hmm... by Nimey · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Japan's excuse for bombing Pearl Harbor was that we'd stopped selling them oil.

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
    5. Re:Hmm... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I'm 26 and I instantly knew what he was referring to. I think you mean to say there are a good number of people in general who wouldn't know he was referring to the tensions the US created against Japan by cutting off their fuel supply in the prelude to our involvement in WWII.

      Maybe if you were all that concerned about it you would have indicated what it meant for those who didn't know rather than feel smugly superior in your vast historical knowledge.

    6. Re:Hmm... by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 3, Informative

      I think what he might be actually referring to is lately there's been this growing conspiracy theory that the US wanted Japan to bomb Pearl Harbor for basically no reason other than that we could one day drop nuclear bombs on them, and Japan was otherwise only interested in peace the whole time.

      Few of anybody (even those who don't subscribe to these theories) actually realize just how militaristic Japan actually was...I mean they even made the Nazi's look like good guys in comparison (not only did they have their own form of concentration camps and racial superiority complex, but they also had rape camps and would starve and torture POWs.) Furthermore, while Germany was mostly about having its military do these things, for the Japanese, EVERYBODY was part of the effort, even going so far as to ordering their own citizens to commit mass suicide rather than permit military occupation of any towns.

    7. Re:Hmm... by RightwingNutjob · · Score: 1

      In 1990 yes. In 2003...it's complicated.

    8. Re:Hmm... by murdocj · · Score: 2

      Nope, Iraq invaded a neighboring country. You must be confused with Russia grabbing Crimea.

    9. Re:Hmm... by sillybilly · · Score: 1

      I love Chinese, Japanese and Asians, as nations, like I love tigers, as creatures. I want them to live well and prosper, I admire their culture and beauty, but I would not trust them completely not to eat me, I still need defenses against them. Just watch how they eat live octopus in Korea, that's like the uber definition of unkosher food, ripping limbs off of live animals. And these animals are quite intelligent too. So if we lose our strong military protection, it may become quite enticing to them to attack us. Which is what I'm paying taxes for, military protection, not for even more non-self-sufficient young people to multiply out of control on Social Security money that was meant for the elderly. I mean we don't want anyone starving, but come on man. Put a leash on your dick, it's not her fault, she can't resist dick, it's your fault if she gets pregnant and you can't stay with her to help out raise the baby. Baby momma baby daddy stuff. At least be husband and wife for that welfare money, that's one degree better. But I'm paying tax money mostly for military protection, and Obama is too fucking naive to realize just how important that is. If they introduced a law that the insurance companies getting fat on Obamacare maintain private armies that supplement our defenses in case an invasion happens from Japan, or a united Korea, China and Japan trio, then I wouldn't mind paying them all that dough, as long as they do yearly parades with the tanks, troops and planes for me to see, this is what all that money buys. But I bet the profit goes for dirty old men executives' country club memberships to get sucked by a teenage girl, and golf club memberships, not weapons or supporting private armies. And what's this disarming the nation stuff, gun control? Plus private armies in a democracy? But if they'll say it means zero taxes absolutely, no property, income tax, and even no mandatory insurance, just let private armies coexist with the national military, and if these private armies can defend my country, and I don't have to pay anything into them, that sounds like an alternative to look at.

    10. Re:Hmm... by JosKarith · · Score: 1

      And when China threatened to cut off the water supply to Hong Kong we... gave it to them.

      --
      'Don't worry' said the trees when they saw the axe coming, 'The handle is one of us.'
    11. Re:Hmm... by Cryacin · · Score: 2

      Even Slashdotters in there 50s and 60s are not old enough to remember the oil embargo or the attack Pearl Harbor Before the grammar Nazis kill me: Even Slashdotters in their 50s and 60s are not old enough to remember the oil embargo or the attack on Pearl Harbor

      Back in those days, the Nazi's weren't as concerned with grammar.

      --
      Science advances one funeral at a time- Max Planck
    12. Re:Hmm... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      No it isn't. The reason for the decision was that the Japanese military felt that a war with the US was inevitable. The oil issue was just a part of that, an indication of the changing attitude in the US as parts of the government were pushing for a conflict. The Japanese military were pragmatic; they knew they couldn't defeat the US and that the best hope was for a stalemate. An early surprise attack that crippled the US Pacific fleet was supposed to facilitate that, but of course it failed to do so.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    13. Re:Hmm... by Xest · · Score: 2

      To be fair, if you're not American, the attack on Pearl Harbour is quite the irrelevance in the grand scheme of things such that no, it probably isn't in most kids history lessons, there's just too much other far more important stuff from other nations histories than that part of American history. If they go near American history at all it tends to focus on the war of independence, the war of 1812 or the American civil war.

      Certainly here in the UK Pearl Harbour was never on the agenda, we got taught about the American war of independence and the American civil war but that's it. In terms of World War teaching it was focussed either on World War I, or the European and African fronts. We didn't even really get taught much about the war in Asia and places like Australia, despite these being far more relevant to our commonwealth history than Pearl Harbour either. There's just too much other stuff to fit in to make room for even the majority of British history, let alone much overseas history on top - especially events that are again in the grand scheme of things pretty irrelevant to the global perspective compared to many other much larger events in history.

    14. Re:Hmm... by Ottawakismet · · Score: 1

      Yeah, its outrageous China is trying to say Japan is the one militarizing. China's military budget goes up more than 10% a year. Japan's is steady and increased by 0.3% hardware spending on 5 years. Who is threatening their neighbours exactly? China is always looking for a stick to beat Japan with

    15. Re:Hmm... by Nimey · · Score: 1

      Reread that. I said "excuse", and "excuse" I meant. I never claimed that was the real reason.

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
    16. Re:Hmm... by shikaisi · · Score: 1

      Back in those days, the Nazi's weren't as concerned with grammar.

      I see what you did there =8^)

      --
      No left turn unstoned.
    17. Re:Hmm... by sillybilly · · Score: 1

      No. My two grandfathers were different persons from my father.

    18. Re:Hmm... by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      This is not a conspiracy theory.

      Yeah because it would make so much sense for us to allow Japan to wipe out half of our fleet in one stroke, particularly at a time where steel (the material used to rebuild it) was a pretty scarce resource. Their war machine was numerically and technically superior to ours.

      We were in no position to fight them, even if we had that fleet fully intact. While Japan was able to physically reach us for bombardment, we were technically unable to reach Japan; and in fact we weren't even practically able to do it until WAY later in the war. When we sent bombers out there in the earlier days of the war, they literally could not return; it was a one way trip.

      We only narrowly won the battle of midway, namely because one of the Japanese scout pilots had a non-functional radio, so their planes didn't scramble and were sitting ducks when our Navy struck. Otherwise they would have handily outnumbered us in that battle. It is considered the turning point because in this battle we severely crippled their Navy, but it was only by sheer luck.

      And finally, we had no nuclear bombs at this point. The Manhattan project didn't even exist when Japan attacked in any form at all. Not even a proposal had been made.

      Conspiracy my ass; Japan simply struck on their own volition.

    19. Re:Hmm... by sillybilly · · Score: 1

      Ahh, the twisted web of alliances! Nation 1 is allied with nation 2. Nation 1 goes to war with nation 3, and requests nation 2 to pitch in, due to their alliance. Nation 2 says they cannot since they are also allied with nation 3. The relationship between nation 1 and nation 2 deteriorates, but they are still semi-allies. Add more than 3 actors to this game and it can get really complex. Two superpowers, like USA and USSR during cold war, never going to war with each other, and each other nation in the world allied to either one of them, was a very stable world, besides some Cuban missile crisis.

      Now the US economy is plummeting from global competition from places like Bangladesh or Pakistan making all my shirts I buy at Walmart, and soon you can't tell who's who? Who's on top? China? Japan? The British Empire makes a comeback (proving once and for all that Monarchy is better than Democracy after all the democracy issues pile on in the US leading to a Lehman Brother's type collapse, and closing every single mall two, followed by closing every single factory?) Russia? India? I'm sure the muslims like Turks want to bring back some Ottoman empire too. How about the EU becoming militaristic overnight? They have some weapon's capabilities, and economic power, and may be getting low on resources, even with heavy renewable energy investment. I never heard of Indonesia, other than there are lots of people there too.

      There are 330 million people in the US. 1300 million in China, 1000 million in India, and only "120" million in Japan. Japan is a tiny country compared to the US, but there is 1 Japanese for every 3 Americans, 9 Indians for every 3 Americans, and 13 Chinese for every 3 Americans. Japan attacked Pearl Harbor because the fuel supply to their industry, to their economic livelihood was cut off by the Dutch Indies (Indonesia) oil companies. They were sort of provoked into it. Being outnumbered 3 to 1, the odds are not that greatly against them, most Americans think Japan is a tiny island and we outnumber them at least 10 to 1 or even 100 to 1. Zrinski boldly made his final charge with 600 Croatians/others against 150,000 Turks. Because every time he forcibly took the tax from a serf, he justified it by saying when it's time to defend you, I will put my ass on the line for you. So he couldn't wave the white flag. But that's called being outnumbered, overpowered, and still attacking, as a matter of honor, of duty. The Japanese defenses at Iwo Jima during WW2 showed similar "honor":attitudes and no flag waving til extremely to the end.

      In a world where gas prices went from $1/gal to $4/gal in a decade, and are on the rise, eventually something has got to give. But hopefully we can figure out a way to feed everyone, fuel everyone, and avert any kind of war. But there are no guarantees, the future is always uncertain.

    20. Re:Hmm... by sillybilly · · Score: 1

      By the way there are pictures on the web how the Dutch East Indies (Indonesia) figured out how to conquer all the hillsides into level terraces to grow more rice and sustain their ever growing population. Problem is once you run out of those unfarmable areas to convert into farmable areas, there is nowhere left to grow. Are you gonna have floating platforms on the sea to have farms on?

    21. Re:Hmm... by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 1

      Interesting information about horrifying human experimentation from WW2 committed by Germany.
      Interesting information about horrifying human experimentation from WW2 committed by Japan.
      Interesting information about horrifying human experimentation from WW2 committed by the USA. (Strangely missing from Wikipedia...)

      Japan's actions during WW2 were abhorent. Unfortunately, they weren't alone in that respect.

      Regarding the Pearl Harbor conspiracy theory, well, that has nothing to do with how militaristic Japan actually was. There is significant evidence that it was a goal of many of those in power in the USA to lure Japan into war. To what extent the actions undertaken by these people actually helped bring about war is also irrelevant. The intent is well-documented. The US did want Japan to bomb Pearl Harbor in order to manufacture a pretext for ending isolationism and justifing US intervention. The conspiracy theory focuses on the extent to which various individuals acted to enable that, which is the only issue that's still in question. Perhaps you're right, and maybe nobody in the US actually acted to make sure the attack on Pearl Harbor would lead to our involvement in the war. However, this would still not have any bearing on the fact that the US did want Japan to bomb Pearl Harbor nonetheless.

      --
      Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
  2. If I had a dollar... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    If I had a dollar for every thing that China is "worried" about, I would be posting this from my own private island.

    1. Re:If I had a dollar... by DrXym · · Score: 1

      If your country was surrounded by potentially hostile countries armed with nuclear weapons then you might be worried too.

    2. Re:If I had a dollar... by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      They should watch Dr. Strangelove (or, how I learned to stop worrying and Love the Bomb.)

    3. Re:If I had a dollar... by newcastlejon · · Score: 1

      You'd do better if you charged a million.

      --
      If God forks the Universe every time you roll a die, he'd better have a damned good memory.
    4. Re:If I had a dollar... by murdocj · · Score: 2

      If your country was a one party state that got nervous any time someone mentioned current events, then you might be worried too.

    5. Re:If I had a dollar... by aminorex · · Score: 1

      That pretty much describes Japan nowadays.

      Anyhow, it would be criminal not to arm with nukes, given China's aggressive posture.

      --
      -I like my women like I like my tea: green-
  3. Logical Consequences by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    China worried about the logical consequences of its own provocations against Japan as well as failing to heel those of North Korea (who essentially only China has open lines of communication).

    1. Re:Logical Consequences by Aighearach · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yeah, this seems a bit silly.

      Japan is already protected by the US nuclear program, so nothing really changes. But Japan has long had a policy of being "ready" for quick weaponization if needed. And it was already the case that the US position is generally that Japan has served their probation and can change their Constitution whenever they're ready to pick up their own defense bill. Recent regional provocation by China only strengthens that.

      If China is so "concerned," maybe they should only claim legal maritime borders according to internationally agreed formulas, instead of trying to claim the whole Champa Sea.

      They can pretty much guarantee that their provocative stance will increase the militarization of their neighbors. It could destroy the WTO, too, since they're members now. If they push too far, sanctions against them might prove very popular in the US because of the effect it would have on US manufacturing. The only way to avoid these consequences is not antagonize their neighbors.

    2. Re:Logical Consequences by beelsebob · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Japan are probably worried that they are not in any way protected by the US nuclear program. They worry that the US would stop short of getting involved in world war 3 if China really did want to invade Japan. By building their own nuclear arsenal, they remove that possibility and maintain MAD with China.

    3. Re:Logical Consequences by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Exactly. China's claims over disputed waters with its neighbors is creating the conditions in which those neighbors either cozy up to the US, or, in the case of a heavily industrialized and wealthy nation like Japan, begin to reconsider their position so far as military position and investment.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    4. Re:Logical Consequences by adamgundy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yeah, this seems a bit silly.

      Japan is already protected by the US nuclear program, so nothing really changes.

      so was the Ukraine, in exchange for giving up their ex-Soviet nukes. see how well that worked out for them?

      when push comes to shove, the US may, or may not, honor its commitments. it all depends on how much they want to go to war with China.

    5. Re:Logical Consequences by Megol · · Score: 1

      No. There were no deals involving military intervention in any way and form.

    6. Re:Logical Consequences by umghhh · · Score: 1

      So instead of the current mess in nuclear free Ukraine we would have the same mess only with nuclear armed Ukraine. That is indeed appealing idea.

    7. Re:Logical Consequences by adamgundy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N...

      they were put under a 'nuclear umbrella' - but only in response to nuclear threats. and since Russia has not used nuclear weapons, the US, UK etc are free to 'ignore' the problem. Ukrainians are understandably upset that they gave up their nukes.

      see how Japan might interpret this action? what if China does something that upsets Japan? will the US get involved, or come up with reasons to ignore the problem? would China be much more careful around Japan if they were nuclear armed? I think so..

    8. Re:Logical Consequences by adamgundy · · Score: 2

      or perhaps they would not have invaded at all, given a potential nuclear response.

      it's easy to tell other nations that they should not have nukes, sitting in a nice safe position of having lots of them. no one wants nuclear proliferation, it's a very slippery slope - but from the point of view of nations who are being stamped on, would you trust the US to come to your aid, especially given how well it worked out for Ukraine?

    9. Re:Logical Consequences by Dorianny · · Score: 1

      In the Budapest Memorandum the United States and several other countries, laughably including Russia, gave security guarantees to Ukraine in exchange for it getting rid of the worlds 3d largest nuclear weapons stockpile. Following the Russian annexation of Crimea, the US went on to say that these guarantees did not specify military intervention. International agreements are enforced only when it is in the signatories best interest, otherwise a "loophole" is found or they are simply ignored. Relying on another countries goodwill for your protection might not be the safest bet, even when said country is a major military superpower.

    10. Re:Logical Consequences by Charliemopps · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No. There were no deals involving military intervention in any way and form.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B...

      However, Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs argued that the Budapest memorandum does not apply to the 2014 Crimean crisis because separation of Crimea was driven by an internal political and social-economic crisis. Russia was never under obligation to force any part of Ukraine's civilian population to stay in Ukraine against its will.

      Russia knew the US would look for any conceivable way to avoid living up to their obligations. So they created one and the US bit. Don't get me wrong, I don't think we should be involved in any of this nonsense. We shouldn't be signing such things if we're not willing to live up to our obligations, but if in the event we do... like we did with Ukraine, we should be following through. Because we failed to, our other treaty partners don't trust us to live up to our agreements and develop their own weapons.

    11. Re:Logical Consequences by adamgundy · · Score: 1

      there's a big difference between having nukes, and using them. MAD.

      nukes are not only a response to nuclear aggression (which has not happened), but they are also a STRONG deterrent against conventional aggression - because the aggressor has to be very willing to accept escalation. no one wants that, unless they are insane (N. Korea.. looking at you).

    12. Re:Logical Consequences by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Protected in the sense of Diplomacy and UN Protection like Ukraine, not US Military support...

      In case anyone missed it, that's as useless as tits on a bull.

    13. Re:Logical Consequences by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Why would you think a ban on Chinese goods would be good for US Manufacturing? I think it's far far likelier that US companies will use any other asian or even African based company as a substitute to keep the prices low.

    14. Re:Logical Consequences by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Was he really democratically elected? Or was it a sham election, like the one in Florida in 2000, or worse the elections where Saddam Hussein won with 99% of the vote?

      From what I can tell, most "democratic elections" are just shams. To be fair, the US isn't really that bad in the voting booth, it's just that the process whereby the candidates are selected is a complete sham and farce. Other countries are worse. Only the western European countries seem to have a really good handle on democratic elections.

    15. Re:Logical Consequences by Talderas · · Score: 1

      Was it in the late '70s early '80s when Japan had the 2nd highest defense budget?

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    16. Re:Logical Consequences by tempestdata · · Score: 1

      Sort of like how Ukraine was protected by the US if it were ever to be invaded?

      --
      - Tempestdata
    17. Re:Logical Consequences by Zontar_Thing_From_Ve · · Score: 4, Interesting

      China worried about the logical consequences of its own provocations against Japan as well as failing to heel those of North Korea (who essentially only China has open lines of communication).

      Actually, I think you're wrong on both accounts. The military in China is a little bit crazy. Did you know that they are pledged by the constitution to support the CCP (Chinese Communist Party) rather than China itself? Think about that for a while. The civilian CCP government does control the PLA (People's Liberation Army), but for years now the PLA has been gaining in influence. I'm not sure even the CCP government really cares all that much about its provocations any more because they don't believe anybody will stand up to them, not even the USA.

      China and North Korea are stuck with each other. Russia had the good sense to get out of that crazy game of financially supporting them early in Yeltsin's presidency, and that left China holding the bag. China doesn't have as much influence as you might think, nor do they use what little they have as well as they could. It's not well known by the public, but China has a lot of business deals with North Korea where basically they get rare earths and other minerals for below market rates. These deals are very important to China and are the main reason they prop up North Korea. China is really tired of North Korea behaving badly and causing trouble in its backyard, but they fear even more a united democratic Korea that might (who knows?) have US troops stationed in it near the Chinese border. So like it or not, they are committed firmly to the status quo because it represents a "least evil" option to them. When China says that they want a nuclear free Korean peninsula, they are quite sincere about that. They don't trust North Korea to maybe not use a nuke against them in anger or by mistake as their missile systems might simply go the wrong way and blow up in China by accident. But they aren't willing to do anything to get rid of the Kims and the Kims aren't getting rid of their nukes because they believe that their family survival depends on it. The only ways that North Korea is ever going to be nuclear free is that either the US is going to attack them and gamble that they can destroy their few nuclear missiles before they leave North Korean airspace or (much less likely) the regime will collapse quickly for some unforeseen reason and the new government will get rid of the nukes.

    18. Re:Logical Consequences by Luckyo · · Score: 2

      It's pretty unlikely that US would have destabilized Ukraine to the extent it did in the first place if it had nukes. In this regard, Ukraine was a very good lesson in that if you're an independent country in which large empires have interests, you should probably get nuclear weapons and delivery systems sufficient to hit said empires.

    19. Re:Logical Consequences by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      Russia was never under obligation to force any part of Ukraine's civilian population to stay in Ukraine against its will.

      I love the weasel wording on this. From the way they say it, Russia reluctantly decided not to go to war to prevent Ukraine from joining them.

      --
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    20. Re:Logical Consequences by DoofusOfDeath · · Score: 1

      If you zoom out to about 100 years, I think you'll find that the Chinese have a good reason to fear the Japanese, too.

      Both countries have had their share of dicks.

    21. Re:Logical Consequences by argStyopa · · Score: 5, Informative

      I don't know if you're just trying to be histrionic or what, but to be clear:

      http://www.un.org/en/ga/search...

      - The context of the Ukrainian "surrender of it's nukes" was that after the dissolution of the Soviet Union, they ended up with the ownership of a number of nuclear warheads.
      - Given the context of the time, and granting the facts that they could neither secure them properly nor likely even use them as the arming codes were in Russian hands, the US, UK, and Russia signed a memo of understanding with Ukraine in exchange for their sending the warheads for reprocessing.

      In the first place, this memo stated that the signatories: "...respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine..." and "...refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine...." Further, they agreed to seek UN security council action "...if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used;"

      As far as I can tell, there is absolutely no guarantee of territorial integrity (as has been implied heavily by media reporting). No terms of mutual defense, or assistance.

      Finally, that this was a MEMO and not a ratifiable treaty lies at the heart of the matter: it was a dead-letter the moment it was signed, not worth the ink used to print it. Without treaty status it was merely an agreement in principle, of the moment, and utterly without binding power by the long-accepted standards of geopolitics.

      By the letter of the memo, the US and UK have in fact fulfilled their obligations. (Russia clearly didn't "...respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.")

      It should be clear, then, that Ukraine wasn't exactly beating its swords into plowshares; more accurately they were giving away their swords that they couldn't use anyway, in return for a tepid, unenforceable agreement that only was relevant in the event of an actual nuclear exchange. Was it worth it? It's been 20 years during which - pretty much - Russia has paid Ukraine's bills, sold them cheap gas, and largely subsidized their entire existence.

      I'd agree that the spirit of the thing was much more broadly (and inaccurately) celebrated; on whose responsibility that rests, I'll leave to others. The fact is that in geopolitics and diplomacy, details MATTER.

      Don't get me wrong; I don't believe Putin's seizure of the Crimea was legitimate by ANY standard. He's an old school Soviet (if not Tsarist) Man who has adroitly outmaneuvered the severely-outclassed US and EU administrations with a coup akin to Munich 1939.

      Neither am I giving Obama a pass. The US was never going to (nor should it reasonably ever consider) become directly involved in a territory adjacent to Russia. Any rational view would recognize that Ukraine is substantially within the Russian sphere of influence. NEVERTHELESS, the US has ample tools in its toolbox to deal with "bad actors" in many indirect ways, and reassure our actual allies of our firm commitment to their security. Yet the US response has been confused, dilatory, impotent, and in many ways strengthened Putin's propaganda hand (The US sent the head of the CIA to a state where Russia accused the public movements of being 'inspired' by the west....seriously?). That Russia has - by most measures - pulled this off without lasting diplomatic consequence is shameful.

      My point is this: the characterization of the Memo in the media has been deeply flawed. For all the criticisms that can be fairly laid at the doorstep of the west on this matter, failing to live up to that memo is NOT one of them.

      --
      -Styopa
    22. Re:Logical Consequences by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Exactly. The US is about as likely to nuke somebody over Japan as Russia is likely to nuke somebody for stealing Crimea from the Ukraine.

    23. Re:Logical Consequences by danlip · · Score: 1

      While I think Gore should have won in 2000 I think it is a bit much to call it a sham and completely ridiculous to compare it to Iraq under Hussein. The levels of corruption were quite small, and it only mattered because the election was really close. The real blame falls on the electoral college structure and the plurality-takes-all method of deciding elections, both of which need to be changed in my opinion.

    24. Re:Logical Consequences by amiga3D · · Score: 2

      If the US fails to support Japan in the case of Chinese agression we might just as well disolve the military and become a Chinese Satellite. As bad as it is now that's international suicide. I can guarantee that any politicians supporting such a stance might as well go back to being used car salesmen as well.

    25. Re:Logical Consequences by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      There are US bases in Japan as well as South Korea. Any attack by China on either would be the launching point for another World War. Ukraine doesn't rank in the same region of US interests as Japan does. Not in the same Galaxy.

    26. Re:Logical Consequences by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      I doubt the US is going to use nuclear arms to deter an invasion. They might very well use conventional ones though. Japan is not Crimea.

    27. Re:Logical Consequences by unixisc · · Score: 1

      In Ukraine, Russia smuggled in Russian militias into Russian populated areas, such as the Crimea and Donbatz. Since the unrest in Ukraine was started by native Ukrainians - albeit ethnic Russians - the Russians had a major advantage here.

      There is no way that the Chinese could pull that off in Japan. For starters, Japan has the most stringent immigration policies, and is so ethnically pure that it's impossible for foreigners to 'become' Japanese, the way people become Americans or Europeans. So that sort of stunt couldn't even begin to work there. Then also, the Japanese have a small ethnic Korean population, but not Chinese. Hence, territorially, they are safe.

      As a result, the only way China could threaten Japan was either directly invade, or let client states like North Korea fly rockets over Japan and land east of Tokyo. In fact, the last time Pyongyang did that, Charles Krauthammer suggested that the one thing the US could do could be to signal Japan to officially go nuclear. Nothing else would scare China, who still have WWII memories of Nanjing and other such events. So do that, and China would do everything to make Japan happy.

      Even more interesting would be if the US let Taiwan go nuclear: it would be funny to watch Beijing's reaction

    28. Re:Logical Consequences by rahvin112 · · Score: 2

      Russia signed the same treaty that agreed to honor and defend Ukrainian territorial integrity. The US signature didn't agree to come to Ukraine defense with American troops, it agreed to keep the US out of the Ukraine.

      At the time this was signed the US was seen as a potential threat (the cold war had just ended) and the Russians as the potential solution to that threat. The intent of the treaty was that the US and their allies wouldn't invade Ukraine and if they did the Russians would defend them. For all intents the US honored their side of the bargain, the Russians on the other hand basically spat all over their side of the treaty.

    29. Re:Logical Consequences by khallow · · Score: 1

      Japan is already protected by the US nuclear program, so nothing really changes.

      Just like, say Iraq, is protected by the US nuclear program?

      I think Japan is probably about twenty years away from developing its own nuclear weapons, assuming it hasn't already done so, simply due to the decay and unreliability of the US.

      When the US no longer can project sufficient military power in the Pacific, then either Japan becomes a military power or China will fill that void. I think that choice will happen in the next twenty years.

    30. Re:Logical Consequences by Citizen+of+Earth · · Score: 1

      Japan is already protected by the US nuclear program, so nothing really changes.

      Ukraine's broders were also guaranteed by the US and other western powers.

    31. Re:Logical Consequences by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      I think Naval power would decide any war in the Pacific. Again. That might well go tactical nuclear as nukes make near misses irrelevant.

    32. Re:Logical Consequences by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      You have to remember the historical context. Ukraine had just become an independent democracy, and was revelling in the new freedom and chance to live a western lifestyle. Naively they thought that western nations and the UN would stick to their (admittedly verbal) promises.

      I think the Ukrainian people have a right to be pissed off now that they have discovered what the reality of those words is. In fact to them it looks like the US may actually be quite pleased with the way things turned out because it presented an opportunity to bring some economic sanctions against Russia. The US space industry could get a nice boost from that.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    33. Re:Logical Consequences by steelfood · · Score: 3, Interesting

      There are parts of your rather thoughtful assessment that I agree, and parts that I disagree with.

      they fear even more a united democratic Korea that might (who knows?) have US troops stationed in it near the Chinese border.

      I'm not sure that's the fear. A unified Korea, assuming from the South, would no longer require U.S. troop presence. And if the South managed to unify Korea, they'd be more likely to kick the U.S. troops out than to keep them there. The only reason the South Koreans tolerate the U.S. is because that keeps North Korea out. Keep in mind that South Korea (and Japan) are not grateful for the U.S. presence. They tolerate it and only because they have to. Taiwan is the only one who's amicable to the relationship, and they're growing closer and closer to the mainland every day (they'll still like Americans, but they know the money's in China). But there's no U.S. base in Taiwan either.

      They don't trust North Korea to maybe not use a nuke against them in anger or by mistake as their missile systems might simply go the wrong way and blow up in China by accident.

      You have to understand that China's need is economic growth at the moment. China is afraid of North Korea provoking war against the South. They're not so afraid of a unified Korea under the North regime if it just ended there. However, if the North ever took over the South, the next logical step would be to attack Japan. And this is especially true if North Korea had nukes. There would be absolutely no restraint from the rabid war dogs in the North against Japan. You do not understand hatred until you speak to a Korean about the Japanese (even the South Koreans, who are friendlier than their batshit crazy cousins up north).

      Such an action (the war, obviously) would destabilize the region enormously. The U.S. would be involved. China would be involved. Russia would be involved. Even India and much of Western Europe would be dragged into the conflict. That's the last thing China wants to see, because there's a lot of risk there with little to no reward. The risk is greater U.S. or Soviet--I mean Russian--influence in the area after the war concludes, or even of MAD.

      Even if North Korea magically discovers the ICBM and hits the U.S. with nukes, China would have lost, because the U.S. is really fueling the majority of China's economic growth. Now, when China has entered a period of economic self-sufficiency, their tune with regards to a nuclear North Korea may change. But for now, North Korea is a massive sore point for China.

      the Kims aren't getting rid of their nukes because they believe that their family survival depends on it.

      After Bush put Iran, North Korea, and Iraq in the so-called "Axis of Evil", are you surprised? Iran is also seeking nukes. And don't forget Pakistan, which is probably more unstable and more hostile to the U.S., was not included in this list for one very big, radioactive reason. The survival of the North Korean (as well as Iranian) state does depend on it. Hell, if Libya or Egypt or Syria had nukes, the western powers would have been helping the government, not helping rebels fight against it.

      The only ways that North Korea is ever going to be nuclear free is that either the US is going to attack them and gamble that they can destroy their few nuclear missiles before they leave North Korean airspace or (much less likely) the regime will collapse quickly for some unforeseen reason and the new government will get rid of the nukes.

      I'm not sure you get how other countries feel about the U.S., in particular those under the "Axis of Evil" label. The only way North Korea will not seek the bomb is if the U.S. implodes and collapses on itself. Full stop. Same with Iran.

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    34. Re:Logical Consequences by Rrraou · · Score: 1

      A country using the threat of a someone having or wanting WMD to justify agression ? Where have I seen that before ?

    35. Re:Logical Consequences by Luckyo · · Score: 1

      You know, you remind me of John Stewart and his hilarious take on Obama talking Russia down, like you just did.

      "Our priority is not worrying about next Cold War with Russia, our priority is to make sure that no nuclear device goes off in Manhattan"
      Stewart (takes a long look at picture of Obama):
      "Oops, I think someone made a poo-poo".

    36. Re:Logical Consequences by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      They worry that the US would stop short of getting involved in world war 3 if China really did want to invade Japan.

      Do you realize just how stupid you sound? Of course the US is going to stop short of WWIII if China "wants" to invade Japan - we're not going to get militarily involved until they go beyond "wanting" and actually get aggressive. Nobody with a brain (which includes Japan, and emphatically does not include you or those who modded you up) expects anything different.

    37. Re:Logical Consequences by kwbauer · · Score: 1

      With our current leadership, we might fail to respond to an armed invasion of DC.

    38. Re:Logical Consequences by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

      There are US bases in Japan as well as South Korea. Any attack by China on either would be the launching point for another World War. Ukraine doesn't rank in the same region of US interests as Japan does. Not in the same Galaxy.

      All true.

      Except that the current US administration would do nothing except make PR statements and call for sanctions. Maybe.

      "I just heard about the Chinese attack on Japan in the news just like you did. I will make a strongly-worded statement...as soon as my teleprompter tells me what it is."

      I wonder which YouTube video would be blamed? Or would those emails suddenly disappear like 2 years of IRS emails just conveniently did?

      And both the major US political Parties are equally as deceitful, corrupt, and power-hungry. There really is only one US political Party, the Government Party vs We the People.

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    39. Re:Logical Consequences by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 1

      Japan is already protected by the US nuclear program

      Yeah, US nuclear program... probably built with parts made in China. Nothing to worry about there.

      --
      -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
    40. Re:Logical Consequences by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      I think Naval power would decide any war in the Pacific. Again.

      Tend to agree RE naval power, though China isn't going very far so their limited power projection isn't as big a factor as it would be if we were talking about an invasion of Hawaii or something like that.

      That might well go tactical nuclear as nukes make near misses irrelevant.

      Nobody is going to fire tactical nukes.

      If the war becomes nuclear then China will lose, though most likely a few American cities will be irradiated, assuming that Russia doesn't get involved in which case we're all dead.

      China could probably use tactical nukes against US naval forces without provoking a strategic response, since their attacks would only hit warships at sea for the most part.

      On the other hand, the US tactical nuclear retaliation would have to be against targets on or near mainland China, since that is where all of their forces would actually be. They won't have ships and aircraft carriers surrounded by 100 miles of ocean to shoot at. If the US strikes at military bases/etc on Chinese soil using tactical nuclear weapons, then China seems likely launch ICBMs against US military bases in the mainland US.

      Now, can you see the US not retaliating with strategic nuclear weapons if somebody sets off a tactical weapon in San Diego, or Norfolk? In that scenario the US will probably consider it likely that China will commit their entire nuclear force in retaliation to a US strategic strike, and thus the US would launch a full counterforce strike against all Chinese nuclear assets, which basically means nuking much of China. If the Chinese don't detect the attack and respond that would be mostly the end of it since they will be out of action (they'd fire whatever we missed). If they did detect the attack then they'd launch everything they had, and that would be the end of it since that is all they have left.

      The Chinese nuclear arsenal isn't enough for a doomsday scenario. Sure, I wouldn't want to live in LA or NYC or DC (I assume their ICBMs can reach the east coast), but outside of maybe the top 5-10 cities there wouldn't be much carnage, and even the major cities would only be hit by a single warhead.

      Obviously even this limited exchange is something to be avoided at almost any cost, so nobody is going to want to fire off tactical nuclear weapons in the first place. There is a saying with nukes that when one flies they all fly, and that is because using them at all crosses a threshold that it is really hard to step back from.

    41. Re:Logical Consequences by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      This is the same government that invaded two counties it seemed to know little about, with no real plan and no effective way to end its involvement. It pissed away untold hundreds of billions of dollars and killed hundreds of thousands of people. I wouldn't count on it acting sensibly or rationally.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    42. Re:Logical Consequences by argStyopa · · Score: 1

      If Ukraine is willing to sell its nuclear warheads for what diplomatically amounts to a string of beads, then perhaps they aren't ready to be an independent state?

      --
      -Styopa
    43. Re:Logical Consequences by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      NEVERTHELESS, the US has ample tools in its toolbox to deal with "bad actors" in many indirect ways, and reassure our actual allies of our firm commitment to their security. Yet the US response has been confused, dilatory, impotent...

      What more do you think we should have done? I've seen clips of conservatives describing how they would handle an issue like this with Russia (from years ago), and they basically outlined the exact steps that the President took. Likely because those steps were cooked up a long time ago by the State Department and Pentagon, and have nothing to do with any particular administration's feelings about a situation.

    44. Re:Logical Consequences by aminorex · · Score: 1

      naval power is kind of a joke in unlimited war. even modern FAEs could wipe out a carrier battle group very quickly, ignoring tactical nukes.

      --
      -I like my women like I like my tea: green-
    45. Re:Logical Consequences by aminorex · · Score: 1

      heck, we didn't respond to an unarmed invasion - why would response to an armed invasion be any more robust?

      --
      -I like my women like I like my tea: green-
  4. Serously? by nitehawk214 · · Score: 1

    Do they actually think Japan... of all the countries in the world... would actually build a nuclear weapon, much less use it?

    --
    I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
    1. Re:Serously? by Shatrat · · Score: 5, Insightful

      A lot more people died from conventional bombs in WWII than nuclear ones, even in Japan, and we're all still building and dropping those.

      --
      09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
    2. Re:Serously? by TWX · · Score: 2

      I wouldn't put anything past any government in this world.

      Based on the content of lots of Japanese pop culture, I don't think that the Japanese feel a lot different about their government either.

      As long as there are belligerent nations in close proximity to each other there will be interest in powerful weapons, even if the persons that would be responsible for such developments might find them in distaste. Do recall that Nobel thought that Dynamite would make war so horrible that no one would want to fight it anymore, he was wrong.

      Sometimes I wonder if Japan surrendered so unconditionally because they thought that we had a lot more of them ready to drop. Had they known that we pretty much exhausted our supply of weapons with those two then perhaps they would have kept on fighting. I'm also curious when exactly it became general knowledge that we were essentially bluffing.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    3. Re:Serously? by Ralph+Wiggam · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It's pretty widely believed that Japan essentially *has* nuclear weapons. But by not completing the final assembly of the warheads, they don't violate the nuclear nonproliferation treaty. Estimates on how much time it would take to assemble the warheads should they decide to violate that treaty range from hours to months.

    4. Re:Serously? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      China is still a little sensitive regarding military actions of Japan, given the terrible atrocities committed by the Japanese during WW2. China still cautiously views Japan as an aggressor and given Japan's industrial might and know-how, it wouldn't take very long for Japan to re-militarize.
      All it takes is one charismatic mad-man.....

    5. Re:Serously? by Shatrat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The Chinese government still uses Japan and the atrocities committed in the 1930s and 1940s as a bogeyman to distract from the atrocities committed by the Chinese government against it's own people in the 1940s and 1950s.

      --
      09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
    6. Re:Serously? by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      What is the theory, here? Do you think they'd have some sort of irrational fear based on things that happened before they were born, or would they just feel awkward? I really don't see how this is a valid theory of military behavior...

    7. Re:Serously? by rogoshen1 · · Score: 1

      Yes. Japans aging population against China's 1.x billion people.
      Long standing animosity between the two countries.
      The Japanese probably see Weakening US resolve to stand up to China over Taiwan and realize that it might not be an isolated phenomenon.
      Tensions with Russia over the Kurile islands.
      North Korea has not only fired rockets over Japan, but also shown time and time again the desire to develop nuclear weapons of their own.

      Why WOULDN'T Japan want a nuclear deterrent?

    8. Re:Serously? by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      No, their position is not that they could violate the Treaty. The theory is that if they want to withdraw from the Treaty, then they could weaponize ASAP, with the only bottleneck on manufacturing.
      And no, that doesn't mean they already "have" them. I know tenses are hard, but come on. If that means they "have" them already, and they turn out not to build them for decades, then when they do finally build them, by your logic they'd have already had them for decades!

    9. Re:Serously? by tysonedwards · · Score: 1

      The difference between a conventional explosive and a nuclear one is that in one case, when the damage is done and minutes later the region is inhabitable again... in the other, add a dozen orders of magnitude and it *may* be safe to return.

      --
      Thirty four characters live here.
    10. Re:Serously? by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      given Japan's industrial might and know-how, it wouldn't take very long for Japan to re-militarize. All it takes is one charismatic mad-man.....

      ...or a loss of confidence in the US's ability or willingness to provide protection.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    11. Re:Serously? by Xaedalus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Which Chinese government? The KMT under Chiang Kai-Shek, or the CCP under Mao? The KMT was arguably far more corrupt than the CCP and deserved to be exiled to Taiwan. The KMT also did not control China, it only controlled a third-to-half of China. And if you argue that the KMT was the recognized government of China at the time, then you have to acknowledge that the KMT under CKS committed atrocities against the Communists (see the Long March) when it could have devoted those resources instead to driving the Japanese out of Manchuria. The CCP emerged from the Long March an ideologically pure, people-driven movement that did away with the crony-ridden corruption of the KMT and also countered the bellicose tyranny of Stalin. It wasn't until Mao succumbed to his own fear of becoming irrelevant and ordered the Great Leap Forward plus the Cultural Revolution that the CCP became as bad as the KMT.

      TDLR: All sides committed atrocities in that period--the argument is over which flavor of nationalism can shout the loudest

      --
      Here's to hot beer, cold women, and Glaswegian kisses for all.
    12. Re:Serously? by gstoddart · · Score: 2

      Sometimes I wonder if Japan surrendered so unconditionally because they thought that we had a lot more of them ready to drop.

      Wouldn't you?

      When that happened I suspect it was a big giant moment of "oh, crap, we're all gonna die".

      A nuke is a pretty compelling argument when nobody has ever used one before.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    13. Re:Serously? by Stargoat · · Score: 2

      Japanese pop culture

      Yeah, I liked that manga too.

      --
      Hoist Number One and Number Six.
    14. Re:Serously? by NoNonAlphaCharsHere · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Everybody in the modern world should get out of bed every morning and thank $deity for Harry Truman's decision to drop those two little bombs. If the world hadn't seen firsthand what those bombs were capable of, we certainly would have found another excuse to try them out, lots and lots more, with much bigger yields. Maybe Korea, maybe the Cuban Missile Crisis, maybe Viet Nam; first a "tactical" nuke or two, then an all-out exchange. Harry Truman should be sainted.

    15. Re:Serously? by Shatrat · · Score: 3, Informative

      I was referring to the CCP. They may be tied with the KMT in terms of oppressive quality, but the CCP is the undisputed world leader in terms of quantity of people put in the ground.

      --
      09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
    16. Re:Serously? by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 5, Informative

      Actually deaths from conventional firebombings were of similar in magnitude of lives lost and destruction.

      And (like coal), burning things produces a lot of long term pollutants that raise the cancer and early mortality rate. It is more what you are "used" to. Coal actually kills 167.5 people per terrawatt each and every year than nuclear. Coal deaths number in the thousands and when coal seams get set on fire- the area can be uninhabitable for decades (like nuclear) and be polluted for centuries with mercury and dioxins (very similar to radiation). Fukishima made 780 square kilometers uninhabitable. The Jhaqira coal fire has made 700 square kilometers uninhabitable. And the smoke affects 400,000 people continuously day in day out.

      Conventional bombs from world war I are polluting water in france and belgium and killed two belgium workers in march.

      We have some weird reaction to nuclear because we are not used to it. Conventional mines have left some areas uninhabitable and are still killing and maiming people decades later.

      The after effects of acoustic shock from "ordinary" bombing can linger until a persons premature death years later.

      I agree nukes are terrible. But I think your "comfort" and familiarity with conventional weapons leads you to overestimate their long and short term safety.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    17. Re:Serously? by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      I think if Japan were sufficiently provoked, yes, I think they would build a nuclear bomb. I have a pretty good suspicion, considering Japans technical sophistication, that a nuclear weapons program would not be hard to achieve, and clearly China knows this.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    18. Re:Serously? by Ancil · · Score: 5, Insightful

      China is still a little sensitive regarding military actions of Japan

      All it takes is one charismatic mad-man.....

      Japan is a little sensitive about China sitting on dozens of ICBM's and claiming a large part of the western Pacific Ocean as their own.

      All it takes is one prudent leader.

    19. Re:Serously? by MightyMartian · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Oh come on. The Japan of 2014 is not the Japan of 1945. Virtually everyone from that generation is dead or beyond any political influence. I have some issues with Japan over its acceptance of some its activities during its empire days, but all in all, it has been a well behaved member of the international community and one of the West's most important Asian allies. I doubt it even wants to have nuclear weapons, but considering the way China has been behaving of late, any prudent Japanese government is going to want to make it clear that it's lack of nuclear deterrent is due to the decision not to have one, and not because of any technical difficulties.

      China cannot continue to poke its neighbors with sticks and not expect that those neighbors will not begin to ponder just how much longer they're going to be poked. Japan is a major industrial power, one of the wealthiest and most advanced nations on the planet, and if China doesn't want to feel threatened by Japan, then it needs to stop pushing buttons itself.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    20. Re:Serously? by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      The Japanese are bad motherfuckers. All of this surrender talk is just disrespectful. It has the appearance of being something sweet and liberal but it's really just blatant racism. You think that they are weak inferior non-white people that be "easily dealt with".

      The Germans fought tooth and nail and so did the Russians. We would do no different if the roles had been reversed.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    21. Re:Serously? by Shatrat · · Score: 2

      I'm not saying they're not worse, I'm saying that being the victim of something doesn't make people less likely to do that to someone else. I'll bet you that right now as we speak there is a 1 legged guy somewhere in Africa setting a land-mine.

      --
      09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
    22. Re:Serously? by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Perhaps. Messing with the timeline is considered a very bad idea for just about this reason.

      But you see my point. It was a bad decision on false pretense. Japan was tapped out, like a man living with a nymphomaniac after two weeks.

    23. Re:Serously? by Savage-Rabbit · · Score: 1

      The Chinese government still uses Japan and the atrocities committed in the 1930s and 1940s as a bogeyman to distract from the atrocities committed by the Chinese government against it's own people in the 1940s and 1950s.

      Let's not forget the Cultural Revolution (1960s). I don't think I have ever seen figures over the deathtoll that were lower than a million.

      --
      Only to idiots, are orders laws.
      -- Henning von Tresckow
    24. Re:Serously? by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The germans didn't run out of fuel and weapons. The germans had endless bombs, they had processes to turn natural gas into diesel (and they had tons of nat), and they didn't stop until we came in and kicked their asses. They still had weapons to fight with.

      The Japanese were running out of fuel, they were out of bombs. All they had left were bodies, and they were rapidly approaching a situation where they'd be trapped on a tiny island that we could just bomb the shit out of at our leisure. The whole collective of Japan would have to be severely retarded not to surrender; they may as well strip naked and march into the ocean to drown.

    25. Re:Serously? by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      There were no high level pleas for peace from Japan. Tojo and his government were of the opinion that Japan should go down in flames rather than surrender. And the Americans were likely concerned about the Soviets as well. A quick end to the war and surrender to the US was far preferable to what happened in Central and Eastern Europe. In the end the Soviets did seize some Japanese territory, and if the land invasion had gone ahead, at least some portion of the main islands would have ended up in the USSR's hands.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    26. Re:Serously? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Japan is not as terrible as the CCP against the Chinese people. CCP killed 80,000,000 Chinese. Japan may be a few million.

    27. Re:Serously? by compro01 · · Score: 1

      in the other, add a dozen orders of magnitude and it *may* be safe to return.

      Actually, the sites of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings are inhabitable today, or would be. Both sites are public parks (the Hiroshima Peace Memorial Park and the Nagasaki Peace Park), which were opened in the 1950s.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    28. Re:Serously? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You realize that people live today in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, right? They were rebuilt quite quickly after the war was over. No particularly horrid long term contamination.

    29. Re:Serously? by preaction · · Score: 1

      You're right, the Japan of 2014 likes to pretend the Japan of 1945 never happened.

      Considering their history, China has every right to be concerned about Japan even looking at them funny...

    30. Re:Serously? by tysonedwards · · Score: 1

      Maybe I missed the memo... Have we figured out how to rapidly mobilize a coal mine to wherever we want to make a statement?

      Yes, conventional weapons can cause serious deaths too, there is no debating that, and we as a species are getting ever more effective at making even more ingenious ways of killing each other.

      Let's say that a bomb goes off in downtown Tokyo killing everyone. No potential for "long term injuries or complications from flying debris", everyone. If that explosion was a conventional chemical explosion, someone could walk into downtown Tokyo tomorrow and be safe from the explosive itself, and any danger would come solely from the rubble. If that bomb were biological or nuclear, entering downtown Tokyo would be extremely dangerous for months, years, decades, or longer depending on just what kind we are talking about.

      And please don't be so obtuse that you can't realize that there is a wild difference between a nuclear weapon and a nuclear power source. One is designed to render an area uninhabitable *after* causing massive devastation. The other is designed to provide large amounts of energy in a controlled fashion that barring a major outside influence is safe.

      --
      Thirty four characters live here.
    31. Re:Serously? by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      Why not? Nobody else has such a sharp understanding of exactly how effective they are...

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    32. Re:Serously? by ArcadeMan · · Score: 1

      I'm amazed that you can spell Godzilla correctly but failed with the word terrorists.

    33. Re:Serously? by mbkennel · · Score: 1


      Only the first was was necessary.

    34. Re:Serously? by machineghost · · Score: 1

      There's a strong case to be made that the nuclear attack was NOT a science experiment, nor was it intended to (further) demoralize the Japanese. Rather, many historians would argue that the US, seeing the Cold War on the horizon, wanted to demonstrate to it's then-ally-but-clearly-future-enemy Russia just what America was capable of.

    35. Re:Serously? by NoNonAlphaCharsHere · · Score: 1

      And yet, to my point, the reason you're arguing the way you are is because you've SEEN what those bombs can do. If Hiroshima and Nagasaki had been firebombed a la Dresden, few would remember or care, they certainly wouldn't be second-guessing the decision 70 years later.

    36. Re:Serously? by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Anything's possible with Japanese Reagan in charge...

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    37. Re:Serously? by Demolition · · Score: 1

      He's probably just poking fun. :) See:
      http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Terrist

    38. Re:Serously? by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

      There are some important parts you are leaving out. Decent tools can be used for evil or for good, like how conventional explosives can save thousands of lives a years by taking away much of the effort of mining. And they can be used in warfare in a reasonably safe fashion against an enemy's military. Yes, killing hundreds, thousands, or millions, but exclusively adult male military personnel. Sure, you add in some small margin of error but it is still minimal. And yes you can carpet bomb an entire continent, or lace the ground with billions of mines and then forget where you put them; But the need to specifically decide to use them for such nefarious ends. The point of nukes is to create a bomb so large that there are no existing valid military targets, the only targets that big are cities filled with women and children.

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    39. Re:Serously? by barc0001 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Japan was not "tapped out". It's well documented that their backs were against the wall and they were prepared to throw the bodies of every last fighting man, woman and child into the expected land invasion by the allies, and it would have been a horrific bloody mess. So many casualties were anticipated from the planned allied invasion that the US started pumping out Purple Heart medals in advance of the action and so many were manufactured that those same medals are still being awarded today.

      Hell, even AFTER the nukes were dropped some of the more rabid Japanese commanders still wanted to continue the fight and nearly mutinied. If the bombs hadn't been dropped to show overwhelming tactical advantage, their collective spirit wouldn't have broken, and the deaths, casualties and mass suicides during the Okinawa invasion would have been repeated on a far larger scale.

    40. Re:Serously? by Shatrat · · Score: 2

      The lowest estimate on Wikipedia is 23 million. Most of them are closer to 40. That's pretty much the combined population of the two largest cities in China, Beijing and Shanghai, dead in the space of a few years.

      --
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    41. Re:Serously? by ambisinistral · · Score: 1

      I sat in a cafe along a river in Hiroshima a couple of years ago wondering where the mutant and clouds of dry ice blowing about were. Very disappointing as a 'Forbidden Zone', very pleasant as a place to eat dinner.

      --

      deserve's got nothing to do with it...

    42. Re:Serously? by afidel · · Score: 1

      They were in armistice negotiations, for good reason the US and their allies wanted unconditional surrender. Plus showing the Soviets the power of our new toys kept their ambitions in check for a while.

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    43. Re:Serously? by Fallen+Kell · · Score: 1

      It obviously wasn't because Japan still balked at surrendering unconditionally. It wasn't until the second one exploded that they gave up, realizing that the US no longer had any intention of fighting in hand-to-hand combat against Japan's fanatical population and taking massive casualties, and instead was perfectly fine in just bombing them all off the face of the planet until they gave up...

      --
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    44. Re:Serously? by ArcadeMan · · Score: 1

      If G.W. Bush had been a stand-up comedian instead of the president of the U.S.A., he'd have been popular pretty much all over the world.

    45. Re:Serously? by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      The China of today likes to forget most of what happened between, say 1800 and 1993. At least, that's what my takeaway is from 6+ years of living in Shanghai...

      --
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    46. Re:Serously? by d0rp · · Score: 1

      There were many factors that went into the decision to drop the bombs, but the main reason was to end the war quickly (again for several reasons). Sure, the Japanese were essentially defeated already and many of them wanted to surrender, but all indications were that the emperor was unwilling to surrender and that they would fight until the last man. The projected casualties for the planned invasion of the Japanese mainland were around 1.5 million when counting both Japanese and Allied forces (which is more than what the bombs killed, even including the lasting effects), so it may have actually ended up saving lives. However, the primary motivation for using the bombs was to get Japan to surrender before the Russians got involved, because Truman didn't want to have to split up Japan like what happened to Germany after the war.

      In retrospect (as was also pointed out by others below), it was also the right decision because it showed the world what the weapons were actually capable of, and how horrible they are (a science experiment as you called it), which has resulted in us not using them again since. Had that not happened, we likely would have used them in the next major conflict and made things much worse. There had been people pushing to drop the first bomb on an uninhabited island near Japan as a demonstration, but that likely wouldn't have had quite the same effect.

    47. Re:Serously? by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      So, instead of blowing shit up to see how blowing people up with nuclear weapons works, we blow shit up to show people we're fucking strong? That's murder.

    48. Re:Serously? by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      My argument was more that blowing up those cities was pointless.

    49. Re:Serously? by Grishnakh · · Score: 5, Informative

      You do realize that both Hiroshima and Nagasaki are currently inhabited, don't you? In fact, they were inhabited shortly after the bombs there exploded.

      Nuclear weapons are not designed to render areas uninhabitable. They're designed to make a gigantic explosion, and that's it. Making the area uninhabitable, sorta like the Romans did with Carthage, is not one of the design goals.

    50. Re:Serously? by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The China of 2014 is moving as quickly as it can towards becoming a major military power, and let us not forget that China is a nuclear power, so the idea that even if Japan went all the way, amended its constitution and formed a fully fleshed armed forces with nuclear capability (and everyone already believes that Japan is already nuclear capable), that it would mean the imminent invasion of China.

      China does not fear invasion, or anything like it. What it fears is that its own imperial ambitions will be completely constrained.

      The militaristic Japan of the last century is a useful propaganda bogeyman for China, but as a real threat to anything but contested maritime boundaries, it doesn't exist.

      --
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    51. Re:Serously? by NoNonAlphaCharsHere · · Score: 1

      Clearly it was not "pointless", as it demonstrably caused Japan to surrender unconditionally.

    52. Re:Serously? by phorm · · Score: 1

      Virtually everyone from that generation is dead or beyond any political influence

      Except for the politicians that take trips to a shrine which contains war criminals, and various anti-korean sentiment and some pretty skewed views of the sexual enslavement (a.k.a comfort women) of foreign nationals during the Japanese invasion.

    53. Re:Serously? by Ralph+Wiggam · · Score: 1

      I'm familiar with tenses, thank you.

      You should look up what "essentially" means.

    54. Re:Serously? by Talderas · · Score: 1

      It took two nuclear bombs to go from a war council that favored continuing fighting at 5-2 to a war council that wanted war at 4-3 after Hiroshima to 3-4 after Nagasaki. That guy that switched sides committed seppuku within a week and did so only because Emperor Hirohito urged them to end the war. After Nagasaki, a military coop was attempted as well to avoid the surrender.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K...

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    55. Re:Serously? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The point of nukes is to create a bomb so large that there are no existing valid military targets, the only targets that big are cities filled with women and children.

      The need for megatons was not because the bombs needed to be destructive, but because the accuracy of the delivery systems was measured in hundreds of meters (or more). When you have something with a CEP of 1km and you need to be sure that what you are aiming at still gets destroyed, you need something with a very large area of effect. With accuracy so poor, those warheads are no good for counter-force use and are instead re-purposed to hit "value" targets.

      More modern delivery systems are such that the CEP is much smaller (200m is the rumored CEP for Minuteman III missiles), which means you can use a much smaller warhead and still have a good chance of killing your target with one shot. The W87 REVs are only around 300-350kT instead of 1-2MT of the older warheads. There's not many warheads left today >450kT.

    56. Re:Serously? by Talderas · · Score: 1

      Japan wasn't sueing for peace.

      Japan's armies were quite robust. Aside from the minor losses we inflicted on them in the island hopping they had two full armies protecting the Japanese mainland and at least three armies still fighting successfully in China. As it stood, we were at minimum at least 6 months away from militarily defeating Japan. MacArthur was estimating 9-12 months of a blockade would be sufficient for Japan to surrender and that's due to the destruction of factories and the ability to constrict raw materials, however supplies were quite robust for the military and would take some time to deplete through combat. Bombing the supplies away wasn't an option.

      That's the key thing. Japan hadn't been militarily defeated which mean it mirrored Germany at the end of the Great War. We had no soldiers on Japan's homeland and they still had robust control in Korea and China. They only lucrative territory they had lost by that time was in the indies.

      What Japan was seeking was an armistace, which was complicated by the fact that the Allies wanted unconditional surrender.

      As to an experiment... the Hiroshima bomb wrote off one of the two armies defending Japan's mainland. An entire army wiped out. Most of the men in the divisions were killed. The command of the army was wiped out (the commanding general was away at the time). The entire logistics branch of that army was also destroyed. Call it an experiment but that sort of devestation would have made invasion significantly easier.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    57. Re:Serously? by Talderas · · Score: 1

      Even after the second a coup was executed to avoid surrender.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K...

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    58. Re:Serously? by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      On Nov. 7, the third day of the offensive, witnesses watched from the roof of a public building in Husaybah as U.S. warplanes struck homes in the town's Kamaliyat neighborhood. After fires ignited by the fighting had died down, witnesses observed residents removing the bodies of what neighbors said was a family -- mother, father, 14-year-old girl, 11-year-old boy and 5-year-old boy -- from the rubble of one house.

      Just some of 400,000 civilian iraqi dead- many due to air strikes.

      When you are in a war to win it, you *are* going to kill lots of civilians too.

      This was with *precision* weaponry.

      "exclusively adult male military personnel" is lala happy fairly land.

      There are all manner of nukes. Some in germany can literally be used on the battlefield. The M-388 nuclear round had a yield equivalent to somewhere between 10 or 20 tons of TNT. Without weapons like it, the soviet union would have invaded europe. They had a vast conventional military superiority for much of the 40's, 50's and 60's in Europe.

      To paraphrase you-- a nuclear bomb is a tool that can be used for good or evil. A neutron bomb can specifically kill everyone- but leave no long term radiation (supposedly the benefit of conventional weapons here right?).

      The existence of the nuclear bomb has saved millions if not billions of human lives since 1945. A nuclear bomb's principle purpose is to prevent the use of the conventional military. A nuclear bomb's principle purpose is to prevent large wars.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    59. Re:Serously? by Talderas · · Score: 1

      The Emperor wanted peace, however he did not have the power to do so unilaterally and it would have been outside his station to encourage the war council to go for peace as it would basically necessitate all those who opposed his urging but went with it to commit seppuku. He did eventually do just that after the bombs had dropped and the war council narrowly approved surrender (read 4-3 to surrender) the one person that switched sides did commit seppuku.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    60. Re:Serously? by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      Ukraine kind of demonstrates that if you don't have nukes, you're vulnerable to invasion. Ukraine must be kicking themselves that they didn't keep the nukes they used to have.

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    61. Re:Serously? by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      Not to mention Germany from, hmm, 1930 to 1989?

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    62. Re:Serously? by machineghost · · Score: 1

      Welcome to US history: Hiroshima was *far* from the first mass murder initiated by the American government.

    63. Re:Serously? by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1
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    64. Re:Serously? by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      basically the only country

      I wasn't aware that there was any argument over this whatsoever.

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    65. Re:Serously? by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      I'm not entirely sure why someone decided they "had" to surrender unconditionally anyway...in the end, they actually didn't. The one condition was that Hirohito stay on the throne, which he did.

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    66. Re:Serously? by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      The China of 2014 is moving as quickly as it can towards becoming a major military power, and let us not forget that China is a nuclear power, so the idea that even if Japan went all the way, amended its constitution and formed a fully fleshed armed forces with nuclear capability (and everyone already believes that Japan is already nuclear capable), that it would mean the imminent invasion of China.

      China does not fear invasion, or anything like it...

      Japan could never prevent a Chinese invasion using conventional forces. On the other hand, if they had any substantial number of nuclear weapons they could make any invasion impossible and deliver a devastating blow to mainland China. The most China could do is ensure that neither country remained habitable, or maybe the rest of the planet if they let the conflict further escalate.

      Nobody wins nuclear war. Nobody mounts a D-Day sized invasion against an enemy with tactical nuclear weapons either.

      Even a conventional invasion of Japan is only possible if the US stays out of it. The US probably wouldn't use nuclear weapons unless it came down to full nuclear war. However, the US has plenty of very good subs and you can't send troop transports across a sea infested with enemy subs. China would have to neutralize US naval/air dominance in order to mount an invasion of Japan and supply it, and even if you agree that US carriers are useless the US has a lot of stuff other than carriers that could be used to counter an invasion.

    67. Re:Serously? by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      The germans didn't run out of fuel and weapons.

      From every account I've ever heard, the only reason most of Germany's crazy "victory weapon" planes didn't fly much by the end of the war was because they didn't have the fuel to get 4/5 of them off the ground. Well, that and the jet engines had absolutely atrocious life expectancies.

      And they didn't hardly have any decently trained pilots left.

      And, y'know, most of their industry had been bombed to pieces.

      And they had a few million pissed-off Russians on their border.

      And...and...

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    68. Re:Serously? by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      There was a total war on and you're talking about murder? Umm...

      Not that there isn't a strong argument to be made that it was gratuitous.

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    69. Re:Serously? by amiga3D · · Score: 2

      Seriously dude. Even you must know you're wrong. Stop already.

    70. Re:Serously? by amiga3D · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Further proof that the biggest threat to a person's life and liberty is their own government.

    71. Re:Serously? by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      Actually, both cities are inhabited now, and have been continuously inhabited for centuries.

      Those parks you mention are in the center of the cities in question - they're not the locations of the explosions (air-bursts), nor are they "ground zero" in more than symbolic ways.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    72. Re:Serously? by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      A war is when you have a fight against people who are trying to invade and destroy.

      Murder is when you kill people for some odd reason, not including necessity for preservation of life and safety.

      When the Romans march into your town and start trying to decapitate people, and you start killing them, that's a war. Well, a skirmish; but basically the same thing on a smaller scale. You have people who are coming to kill you, and you are fighting back. This escalates out, and you have an adversary who will continue to kill people until it is broken, and so you now make battle to break that adversary.

      If you have a situation where some group of people is not your threat, and you kill them for any reason--including to show of to some other group of people you perceive as a threat--you are committing murder. The explanation given was that the Americans killed a bunch of Japanese to show off to the Russians that they shouldn't push the Americans around.

    73. Re:Serously? by unixisc · · Score: 1

      The Guinness Book of World Records still lists China as the country that perpetrated the greatest mass murders - eclipsing Stalin's Soviet Union & Hitler's Germany.

    74. Re:Serously? by sjames · · Score: 1

      But with conventional weapons, it wouldn't be A bomb. It would be many many bombs. Some of which wouldn't detonate until disturbed later by people moving back into the area.

    75. Re:Serously? by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      Sometimes I wonder if Japan surrendered so unconditionally because they thought that we had a lot more of them ready to drop.

      Quite possibly. It's certainly an article of faith in come circles. Note, by the by, that the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings combined did less damage than the Tokyo firebombings. And it's not like we were in danger of running out of incendiaries.

      Had they known that we pretty much exhausted our supply of weapons with those two then perhaps they would have kept on fighting.

      Unlikely, actually. The Emperor had been looking for an excuse to quit fighting for some time, but the Generals were running the country. Note that the Tokyo firebombings (we keep coming back to those) did more damage than the nuclear bombings, but weren't so shocking mostly due to the large number of bombers required to inflict the damage.

      I'm also curious when exactly it became general knowledge that we were essentially bluffing.

      Sometime in the early '50s. Note that we were NOT bluffing. Lacking another Bomb (we had one more), we'd have just kept dropping incendiaries until Japan surrendered. The issue was never one of "we can't beat Japan without the Bomb", it was more a matter of "we really don't want to deal with millions of American casualties invading the Home Islands, so we'll have to bomb them into submission, and that'll take until '48 or so".

      Note that, absent their surrender, we were already planning that invasion of the Home Islands for 1946. Though it is unlikely we would have gone through with it rather than just raining conventional explosives down on Japan 24-7 until they gave up.

      Note, finally, that in the last irony of the whole atomic bomb business, there were three cities in Japan that were never bombed, and two more that were only bombed the once. As a direct result of the atomic bomb development, we put five (potential target) cities on a "Do Not Bomb" list so we could assess the effects of an Atomic Bomb without data being obscured by previous conventional bombings. Three of the target cities were never used, and the last two (Hiroshima and Nagasaki) were spared the fate of Tokyo (bombing about once a week for a year or two) and most other major industrial cities as a result....

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    76. Re:Serously? by sjames · · Score: 1

      Not really. Until the second bomb was dropped, they were telling themselves it was a one-off and the U.S. couldn't do it again. The second convinced them the U.S. could repeat a necessary.

    77. Re:Serously? by compro01 · · Score: 1

      nor are they "ground zero" in more than symbolic ways.

      Yes it is. The Hiroshima Peace Memorial in the park is almost directly under where the bomb went off, which is why the building was still (partially) standing afterwards.

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    78. Re:Serously? by thesupraman · · Score: 1

      Urmm.. you do realise a lot of people live in Hiroshima and Nagasaki Right?
      Both quite lovely cities. Both without any significant health problems caused by the American bombings.

      But dont let that get in the way of your OMG Radiation!! Terror.

    79. Re:Serously? by sjames · · Score: 1

      Even with those, it wouldn't be A bomb, it would be many. The father of all bombs is a couple orders of magnitude less powerful than fat man or little boy.

    80. Re:Serously? by thesupraman · · Score: 1

      So why not drop them on military targets to get the point across to the military?

      No, better to choose nice soft non military targets. fuck morality.

    81. Re:Serously? by Calavar · · Score: 1

      Why is this modded +4 insightful? Even though the Chinese government is a bigger fan of Realpolitik than most other nations and, they are also big fans of minimal risk.

      While China would win a prolonged war with Japan, Japan is no pushover. It's an industrial powerhouse on a fairly defensible set of islands. Any full-scale conventional war against Japan would lead to hundreds of thousands of casualties at least. And while Japan is unlikely to use nuclear weapons over something as trivial as the Senkaku islands, they probably would not hesitate to use everything at their disposal if the home islands where ever in immediate danger.

      The generation of Mao might have been willing to give their lives en-mass in Korea in the name of communism and for "Chinese values", but the modern Chinese population are not a rural stock who want to see land reform and the death of the bourgeois. They are increasingly middle-class families who want to be able to buy the latest American iPhones and European designer handbags. The modern Chinese people are much less receptive to the idea of giving their lives for the Party, and the modern CPC leadership is accordingly risk averse. They are opportunists who aren't afraid to unleash the military when they see low hanging fruit (as Mao did in Tibet in the 1950s and India in the 1960s), but they are also realists who also do not want to see a long, drawn out war (much less a retaliatory nuclear strike) in the name of empty ideals. The modern CPC is all for posturing as they have done recently in the Senkaku Islands and Arunchal Pradesh, but not so big on the actual fighting.

    82. Re:Serously? by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Japan could never prevent a Chinese invasion using conventional forces.

      Why not? Japan has a substantial air force - over 300 fighters, along with AWACS. They also have one of the most advanced sub fleets in the world, and theater air defense via Aegis cruisers.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    83. Re:Serously? by locopuyo · · Score: 2
      They were quite dedicated

      In 1944, Lt. Hiroo Onoda was sent by the Japanese army to the remote Philippine island of Lubang. His mission was to conduct guerrilla warfare during World War II. Unfortunately, he was never officially told the war had ended; so for 29 years, Onoda continued to live in the jungle, ready for when his country would again need his services and information. Eating coconuts and bananas and deftly evading searching parties he believed were enemy scouts, Onoda hid in the jungle until he finally emerged from the dark recesses of the island on March 19, 1972.

    84. Re:Serously? by Calavar · · Score: 1

      I agree that it would be best if Japan removed those items from the shrine, but let's not be so quick to judge other nations. Jacob H. Smith, an American officer who ordered his troops to kill "everyone over ten" in a Filipino village is buried at Arlington. Where are the protests over that? David Cameron refused to apologize for the Amritsar massacre in India, and many modern British historians claim that the actions of the British commanding officer at the scene was justified because there was a danger of a riot. (Even though Winston Churchill admitted at the time that "the crowd was neither armed nor attacking.") Where are the protests over that? Chinese textbooks don't mention the Tungchow Mutiny, where Chinese soldiers in Japanese service defected and proceeded to slaughter and gang rape hundreds of Japanese civilians. Where are the protests over that? Don't be so quick to point fingers.

    85. Re:Serously? by nojayuk · · Score: 1

      You mean like the major Japanese Army command centre in Hiroshima? Or the extensive Naval dockyards and repair facilities in Nagasaki, close to where the Allied invasion was going to hit the beaches in Kyushu? Nagasaki was actually a secondary target due to bad weather over the primary target, a place called Kokura Arsenal which might give you an idea why it was on the target list.

      In reality the atomic bombs were used because they were ready to be used, just one more wonder weapon in a war filled with wonder weapons. They contributed to the decision by the Japanese War Party, the military/political group in power at the time, to surrender but it was mostly down to the Russians declaring war on Japan on the 9th of August 1945 and promptly destroying the last major Japanese army outside Japan itself, the million plus Manchurian occupation force with embarrassing ease.

    86. Re:Serously? by khallow · · Score: 1

      "As far as is publicly known, no cobalt bombs have ever been built."

    87. Re:Serously? by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      Grisnakh didn't say they'd never been built, he said they weren't designed.

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    88. Re:Serously? by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Why 3 years?
      N. Korea: 3 years
      Vietnam: 9 years (and that's if you ignore the lower-level 10 years prior)
      Iraq: 9 years
      Afghanistan: 13 years, so far

      I saw your use of the word "eventually", but that is so ambiguous... "eventually" the sun will consume the earth. And the US has been in wars lasting longer than 3 years that did not result in a draw, loss, or return to pre-war borders/conditions: Civil War, World War II, Bosnian War

      And there have been short wars which did result in a draw, loss, or return to pre-war borders/conditions: War of 1812, Lebanon in the 80s

      --
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    89. Re:Serously? by Sir_Eptishous · · Score: 1

      Actually I prefer "Merka", thank you.

      --
      We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
    90. Re:Serously? by Calavar · · Score: 1

      They could have achieved the same effect by dropping a bomb off the shore from Tokyo. Close enough that the extreme power of the weapon would be clearly evident to any Japanese observers, but far enough that the blast would not kill a single civilian. Let alone tens of thousands. But several US generals were afraid that the US would never again have the chance to see the effects of an atomic weapon on an urban area (something that could be vital in planning the use of nuclear weapons in a future war), so the decision was made to drop the bombs on major cities. This too is well documented.

    91. Re:Serously? by beelsebob · · Score: 1

      If you want to add a dozen orders of magnitude, you're talking about 2e12 minutes, i.e. 3800 millennia. Yet, people are happily living in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Nuclear weapons are in general designed to consume all the highly radioactive things in them - after all, each of those radioactive elements is something that can be turned into energy for an explosion to occur. They don't generally have significant contamination issues.

    92. Re:Serously? by khallow · · Score: 1

      Design doesn't just mean throw something together on paper. By your standards above, I've designed star killers, that is, a weapon which can destroy stars. I haven't actually made any such weapon nor do I know anyone who is even remotely close to being able to make such weapons, but yes, I "designed" one once.

    93. Re:Serously? by TWX · · Score: 1

      Can't find a source for it right now, but if I remember what I learned in history class correctly, it was stated that Japan had a lot of decentralized manufacturing for the war effort in their cities; almost cottage-industry if you will. That would mean that a residential neighborhood would be the source for at least some war materiel, even if something as simple as uniform parts or boots or satchels, and production facilities of those items could well still be considered legitimate targets, especially for boots or for satchels and pouches that carry other war materiel.

      Also with Japan's attempts to indiscriminately attack the United States with incendiary balloons they helped set the rules of engagement. That the balloons didn't have specific military targets in their attack lends weight to the US position that it did not need to attack only specific military targets in Japan either.

      Arguably attacking the United States before the US was directly involved in the war in Europe was Japan's biggest mistake. Even with the damage and loss of life in Hawaii and the later attacks on The Philippines, Japan was not in a position to significantly hurt the United States and by attacking the US they turned their war into a two-front one, when previously it had been mostly fought against the Chinese, and fairly successfully fought that way too. Worse for them, they didn't impact industrial output in any way, and that industrial output had already been growing in anticipation of war, so it was simply a matter of ramping up the production that had already been planned. Had they stuck with European holdings in the Pacific only then they probably could have pressed for their economic sphere of influence without causing the United States to directly enter the war against them or against Germany, at least for awhile longer.

      --
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    94. Re:Serously? by Calavar · · Score: 1

      Also, read this: The REAL Reason America Used Nuclear Weapons Against Japan

      Several members of US command, including Eisenhower said that dropping the bombs was not necessary for a surrender, contrary to your well-documented evidence. Historical revisionism is a real thing. Even in the US.

    95. Re:Serously? by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Threat analysis is based on what you think a potential adversary could do, not on what you expect them to do, or what you think they would like to do.

      Are they seriously worried? I doubt it. Are they planning for the eventuality? Bet on it.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    96. Re:Serously? by steelfood · · Score: 1

      The bombs were not for the Japanese. They were expected to fight to the last man. The bombs were dropped as a show of force to Russia. With the European theater concluded, Russia was moving troops to the east in preparation for an invasion of Japan.

      That the emperor of Japan used the bombs as an excuse to curb his generals was a huge bonus. it kept Russia out and the U.S. from having to invade.

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    97. Re:Serously? by youngone · · Score: 1

      Tojo had been deposed as prime Minister in July 1944, otherwise I think your comment's probably right. On a personal note, my father was serving in the British Army, 2 Parachute Regiment in 1945, and I'm pretty sure he would have been sent to Japan at some stage if the Invasion went ahead. So I'm reasonably comfortable with the US use of nuclear weapons on that occasion. Purely from a selfish point of view of course.

    98. Re:Serously? by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      And who says nobody ever sat down and properly designed one? Just because there's no confirmed testings of them doesn't mean they haven't been developed and maybe even prototypes built without the general public knowing about it. It's not like nuclear weapons programs are classified or anything...

      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
    99. Re:Serously? by khallow · · Score: 1

      And who says nobody ever sat down and properly designed one?

      Burden is on you to show it. Recall that the original poster claimed that nuclear bombs were designed to blow up/irradiate (in the case of the neutron bomb) an area, not render it uninhabitable. To the best of our (public) knowledge, that's the only kind that's been built and deployed. Public knowledge is quite extensive in some ways. For example, a nuclear power couldn't conceal a cobalt bomb test even if it were detonated underground.

    100. Re:Serously? by PrimaryConsult · · Score: 1

      While I was in Japan last year, there was a railway service disruption to remove a recently discovered undetonated American bomb in a Tokyo suburb. I am assuming it is not an uncommon occurrence as the only news I'd heard of it was on the railway departure board.

    101. Re:Serously? by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      I reveal my Inmost Self unto my God

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    102. Re:Serously? by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      Wow! Bonus!

      A 5 mod post and a 0 mod post in the same thread!

      Achievement unlocked!

      What terrible, flamish, trollish post did I must have made to rate a 0?

      Or perhaps it was just groupthink and shutting up a reasonable opinion someone didn't want to hear.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    103. Re:Serously? by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Japan could never prevent a Chinese invasion using conventional forces.

      Why not? Japan has a substantial air force - over 300 fighters, along with AWACS. They also have one of the most advanced sub fleets in the world, and theater air defense via Aegis cruisers.

      The problem would be one of attrition, though. The relative size of their territories makes it much easier for China to bomb Japanese factories than the reverse. Japan doesn't have any bases outside of Chinese reach.

      As long as Japan can maintain air superiority I'd say they could hold off an invasion.

      I wasn't actually aware of their having a significant sub fleet. If they can sustain that then that will also be a big help. Again, attrition would be key in a conventional war.

    104. Re:Serously? by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Hmm, another thought RE the subs. Submarines only carry maybe 20-30 rounds of ammunition. If they fire those at carriers and battleships that is a big impact. For a country like the US where 2 dead soldiers make the front page, then firing them against troop transports might end the war as well.

      However, for a country like China I'm not sure if subs could actually do the trick. So, we have half a dozen subs sink 100 of their troop transports and then they're out of ammo. China is out 100k soldiers, and the other 300 troop transports complete the landing. It would take a few weeks to re-arm the subs and get them back into the theater.

      If the Chinese can launch decoy targets then the math works out that much worse.

      The US has a quality over quantity mentality which doesn't work when the enemy can just overwhelm you with numbers. Sure, every one of your shots will find a mark, but if you only have 30 Mk-48 torpedos you can only sink 30 of their $10k small boats before you're surfacing and using small arms.

    105. Re:Serously? by phorm · · Score: 1

      I'm not pointing fingers, I'm refuting that everyone from "that generation" is dead and beyond influence. There have been several diplomatic issues regarding politicians visiting the Shrine, as well as politicians making some pretty unpleasant public statements regarding the past treatment of other countries. Don't get me wrong, my own country's politicians have been pretty dumb in that regard at times - especially regarding treatment of natives - but to say that everything is rosy and perfect now in Japan is also a mis-statement. There are still some fairly well-placed people with some fairly twisted views regarding their neighbours.

    106. Re:Serously? by werewolf1031 · · Score: 1

      So, nuke Japan to save them from the Soviets?

      I gotta admit, that's a twist I hadn't heard before.

    107. Re:Serously? by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Troop transports are useless without some kind of fire support. This can be surface ships or air support, but if they sail right up to the beach they are sitting ducks for ground forces. Subs need not worry about troop transports, only capital ships. Even China cannot send so many troop transports that these alone would overwhelm semi-competent ground forces. Even if the transports somehow made it ashore, the guys sitting in tanks and armored personnel carriers would have a field day, as would artillery crews and machine gun nests.

      Now if China were to somehow control the air such that they could bring in attack helicopters and ground support aircraft, that would probably seriously diminish the submarine's effectiveness. On the other hand, give the Japanese some credit. If there are no capital ships lurking around for the subs to sink, that opens the door to speed boats to attack any landing craft. Even with command of the air, it would be very difficult to scrub the seas of fast attack craft that only need enough armament to sink (or simply disable) a troop transport.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    108. Re:Serously? by GuB-42 · · Score: 1

      Hiroshima today is a very beautiful city. If you happen to plan a trip to Japan, I highly recommend it.
      The only traces left of the bombardment are the memorials.

      I didn't go to Nagasaki but AFAIK it is also a very nice place.

    109. Re:Serously? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      No, he said nuclear weapons were not designed to make areas uninhabitable. That presumably refers to existing nuclear weapons, and therefore for their design criteria. Obviously, somebody could design a nuclear weapon to do rough sculpting on a mountain, but that doesn't mean nuclear weapons are designed for artistic purposes.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    110. Re:Serously? by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

      Operation Plowshare Not sure whether they customized the bombs at all that they used. I thought I remembered talk way back when about using nukes to excavate a dam, but a cursory googling doesn't turn it up.

      As I replied to the other guy, just because we don't know about it doesn't mean they can't exist. But this whole pedantic jag is going from bad to worse.

      --
      Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
    111. Re:Serously? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Interesting speculation, but I've never seen strong evidence to that effect. What evidence I've seen indicates that (a) Truman got estimates of very high US casualties in an invasion of Japan (it's known that he saw one estimating half a million to a million deaths), (b) he ordered the nukes dropped to try to end the war faster, and (c) Japanese surrender was primarily because of the nukes. I could be convinced otherwise, but it would require actual evidence.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    112. Re:Serously? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Also, the Japanese correctly concluded that Hiroshima was a U-235 weapon. They knew that uranium refinement would be exceedingly difficult, and that it was very unlikely that the US would have enough pure U-235 for another bomb for a long time. I'm not quite sure what they knew of Nagasaki, but they did know it wasn't another U-235 bomb, and that there was no telling how many the US had. (In fact, another plutonium bomb was pretty well ready to go, and production could be ramped up fast.)

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    113. Re:Serously? by machineghost · · Score: 1

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H...

      "Starting with Gar Alperovitz, in his influential Atomic Diplomacy: Hiroshima and Potsdam (1965), "revisionist" scholars have focused on the U.S. decision to use atomic weapons against Hiroshima and Nagasaki during the last days of World War II.[2] In their belief, the nuclear bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima, in effect, started the Cold War. According to Alperovitz, the bombs were not used on an already defeated Japan to win the war, but to intimidate the Soviets, signaling that the U.S. would use nuclear weapons to stop Soviet expansion, however this they failed to do.[1]"

      (You can follow the references for more info.)

    114. Re:Serously? by mattr · · Score: 1

      Be sure to add the mayor of Hiroshima to that list.

    115. Re:Serously? by Stuarticus · · Score: 1

      You do realise that Carthage is still inhabited don't you? It was inhabited shortly after the Romans destroyed it, the "sowing the fields with salt" thing is a myth. Sorry, couldn't help myself.

      --
      If you think someone isn't free to have a different definition of "freedom" you may be a tyrant.
    116. Re:Serously? by airdweller · · Score: 1

      ...and yet they had no invasion plans. Only the defensive ones. Strange, isn't?

  5. Sign a treating promising to protect them if they by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Just sign a treating promising to protect them if they give up nukes.... It worked great for Ukraine. Based on history, China and the USA should sign promising to protect them.

  6. Nuclear Whale Hunt by discord5 · · Score: 2

    At the request of the international community they'll stop sticking harpoons in whales, but the request didn't mention anything about nuking the whales.

    1. Re:Nuclear Whale Hunt by danlip · · Score: 1
  7. Conflict between Japaneese and Chineese by penguinoid · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'd be worried too if a country who had invaded mine in living history, was under-reporting plutonium.

    --
    Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
    1. Re:Conflict between Japaneese and Chineese by gstoddart · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And, yet, China seems to be the one annexing islands and redefining boundaries.

      By some standards, China is more or less invading both Japan and Vietnam now.

      Who is the bigger threat? The closed communist government whose every public statement is a deluded fit of lies gets my vote. Have you ever read a press release out of China? It reads like bad fiction written by a delusional psychotic.

      Maybe if China is 'worried' about Japan, they need to look at their own actions and understand why Japan might be feeling the need to be able to protect themselves.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    2. Re:Conflict between Japaneese and Chineese by Chris+Mattern · · Score: 1, Interesting

      "Living History". Japan invaders were thrown out of China some *75 years ago*. Not too many people left who have personal memories of it, any more.

    3. Re:Conflict between Japaneese and Chineese by Aighearach · · Score: 3, Interesting

      While true, if you look at Japanese and Chinese history, the Chinese did the vast majority of the invading-and-pillaging. That gives additional context for the current illegal claims that China is making over Japanese, Vietnamese, Philippine, and others' territory.

    4. Re:Conflict between Japaneese and Chineese by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The Chinese are legitimately worried because they are now the aggressors.

    5. Re:Conflict between Japaneese and Chineese by Savage-Rabbit · · Score: 1, Insightful

      "Living History". Japan invaders were thrown out of China some *75 years ago*. Not too many people left who have personal memories of it, any more.

      I'm neither Japanese nor Chinese so the closest I can get to relating to the way the Chinese might feel about the Japanese and WWII (and at the same time unfortunately Godwining this thread) is that my great uncle spent years in a Nazi KZ camp, and my grandfather was arrested and worked over by the Gestapo for treason. No living memory there but I was raised by people who experienced the Third Reich first hand and it still makes my skin crawl whenever I hear one of the latest crop of European right-wing populists talk about the Moslems like the Nazis used to talk about the Jews before they gained power and still had to worry about freaking out the electorate. You don't need living memory to be become alarmed when the past looks like it might be about to begin to repeat itself and having read the Wikipedia article on the Nanking Massacres I can easily understand why the Chinese might be freaked out at the slightest hint of a nuclear armed Japan.

      --
      Only to idiots, are orders laws.
      -- Henning von Tresckow
    6. Re:Conflict between Japaneese and Chineese by afidel · · Score: 1

      Average life expectancy in China is 73.5 years, there are PLENTY of people who would remember it. It's not quite the 84.6 years of Japan, but still enough that there will be many people who were children during the rape of nanking alive today to remember it.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    7. Re:Conflict between Japaneese and Chineese by AnOnyxMouseCoward · · Score: 2

      Educate me. My quick research showed a lot of internal Chinese conflict, and some with Korea, but very, very few with Japan.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L...

      In history, what are the big wars where China invaded other countries?

    8. Re:Conflict between Japaneese and Chineese by steelfood · · Score: 1

      China seems to be the one annexing islands and redefining boundaries.

      The "Japanese" islands were in fact Chinese up until WWII. After WWII, the U.S. gave Japan islands that they didn't originally have any claim to.

      As for Vietnam, the situation is a bit murkier, as those islands have been disputed for years. There've been treaties, and various talks, but nothing's definitive.

      But China also has disputed territory with India, who is a nuclear power. China's also a bit sore about India's friendly treatment with the exiled Tibetans, especially the Dali Lama.

      Yet, it'd be a vastly different reaction if Japan built their own bomb. Even South Korea would be opposed to this, while North Korea might outright use it as an excuse to invade (the U.S. invaded Iraq for similar reasons but with much less ability to justify). And let's not forget Japan's most powerful and oldest enemy, Russia. I wouldn't be surprised if they'd have something to say about a U.S.-friendly nuclear power knocking on their back door.

      I suspect people here are trivializing East Asian and in general Asian politics, in the same way people think they can trivialize Middle Eastern politics. It's just not that simple.

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    9. Re:Conflict between Japaneese and Chineese by mister_playboy · · Score: 2

      Said people ought to have even better memories of the havoc the Chinese government wrought on their own citizens after WWII. Cultural Revolution, ho!

      --
      Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law ::: Love is the law, love under will
    10. Re:Conflict between Japaneese and Chineese by khallow · · Score: 1

      while North Korea might outright use it as an excuse to invade

      And get nuked in response. It's a lot easier to come up with excuses to invade than it is to come up with a new army when you fail to do so.

      I suspect people here are trivializing East Asian and in general Asian politics, in the same way people think they can trivialize Middle Eastern politics. It's just not that simple.

      Nor is it that hard. We have a choice between a world where nuclear weapons are an expensive, useless hobby and one where nuclear weapons are the main key to being recognized as a world power. I see plenty of bad decisions being made to create that second state of affairs.

  8. DeFacto Nuclear Powers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Japan has been a de facto nuclear power for decades. They have have the fuel, technology and delivery systems to become a substantial nuclear power in less then a year if they decide to go that route.

  9. Absofuckinglutely by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Japan lives in a dangerous neighborhood, China is an expansive power making threats in the South China Sea, and the Obama Administration has proven feckless at supporting allies (see also: Ukraine, Iraq).

    The fact that nuclear weapons offend the tender sensibilities of Western liberals doesn't enter into their political calculations.

    1. Re:Absofuckinglutely by Anonymous+Codger · · Score: 1

      Nice troll. Ukraine isn't a US ally, and Iraq refused to sign an agreement with the US to keep US forces in country unless we allowed our troops to be subject to Iraqi law (fat chance of that!)..

      --
      No sig? Sigh...
    2. Re:Absofuckinglutely by idontgno · · Score: 1

      Nice troll. Ukraine isn't a US ally

      That's funny; that's exactly what Obama said to Ukraine. Pointed out very carefully that if you read all the fine print in the Budapest Memorandum, the words "ally" and "military support" never occur. Those were just in the marketing material. Silly Ukraine for signing stuff without reading it first.

      Iraq refused to sign an agreement with the US

      Well, to tell the truth, there really isn't one Iraq, even in the government, and in they end they weren't convinced they really wanted or needed us. That's turning out pretty well in retrospect.

      --
      Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
  10. The worry about China's military bluster by Andover+Chick · · Score: 1

    This is one reason why everyone is worried about China's military assertiveness lately. It is not just because of the threat China poses, but the greater threat of a military Japan. Historically Japan kicks China's butt in military contests. Then, in the case of WWII, Japan careens out of control. Don't be a bully China if you don't want to get bloodied.

    1. Re:The worry about China's military bluster by Xaedalus · · Score: 2

      Historically, that was only true in the 20th century. The only reason Japan survived as long as it did was due to two factors: 1) remarkably lucky bad weather drowning Kublai Khan's invasion fleet, and 2) A shogunate that decided to isolate itself from the world to avoid drawing further Chinese invasions plus focus on eliminating all foreign influences. China historically has had the manpower and the naval power to take on and defeat Japan. The 20th century was when that changed. Now Japan's got an aging society, a much smaller population, and they've got to compensate with nuclear weapons.

      --
      Here's to hot beer, cold women, and Glaswegian kisses for all.
    2. Re:The worry about China's military bluster by timeOday · · Score: 1

      The balance of power between China and Japan is reversing with incredible speed. There's no need to go back to Kublai Khan to explain this. In 1995 Japan's GDP was 733% that of China's. In 2012 it was 72% of China's. What else do you need to know?

  11. Mid 1940s tech. by serviscope_minor · · Score: 2

    The trouble is that making nuclear bombs is mid 1940s technology.

    Not only that, but medium range ballisistic missiles are also mid 1940s tech.

    The main difficulty is that currently enrighment facilities are large and easy to spot provided a country doesn't already have a vibrant reprocessing industry (necessary for efficient use of nuclear fuels).

    Many of the things useful for figuring out how to make both of those (e.g. computer simulations, high speed measuring equipment) are nor vastly more advanced and cheaper, the physics is better understood and the basic research is done and dusted.

    Pertty much any highly industrialised nation could easily develop nukes and an almost unstoppable delivery system if they wanted to, provided no one threatened them enough to make them stop.

    --
    SJW n. One who posts facts.
    1. Re:Mid 1940s tech. by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      i.e. nobody finds out because it's 1km underground.

  12. Sounds like FUD from China by timrod · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The idea that Japan could enrich plutonium and turn it into nuclear weapons, which China is trying to push here, is full of "mights". Their logic is essentially:

    - Japan didn't report 640kg of Mixed Oxide Fuel in an offline reactor because they didn't believe they had to. MOX is useless for making nuclear weapons by itself without further processing.

    - Plutonium can be extracted from MOX, and Japan is doing this, but they reported all of the plutonium they extracted from MOX to the IAEA.

    - Japan has a surplus stock of plutonium that they're not really supposed to have, but this is understandable given that plutonium is probably a pain to move around, and they have plans to use it as fuel in breeder reactors in the future.

    - Japan has shown no inclination to produce nuclear weapons outside of a few studies, all of which are well over a decade old and have been known about for years.

    - In China's mind, all of these things, which are circumstantial at best, indicate that Japan MIGHT be considering the production of nuclear weapons.

    From what it sounds like, Japan could've had nuclear weapons years ago if they really wanted to. China merely doesn't want them to have the capability because it means they'd have a much harder time bullying Japan over things like the Senkaku islands.

    1. Re:Sounds like FUD from China by gstoddart · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Of course it's FUD.

      Because, don't forget, China is rattling their sabre at Vietnam, the Phillippines, and Japan ... possibly others.

      China merely doesn't want them to have the capability because it means they'd have a much harder time bullying Japan over things like the Senkaku islands.

      Exactly. For China to be saying this is mostly just trying to mask the crap they're pulling and make it sound like they're only defending themselves, when what they're actually doing is a land grab.

      When they issue public statements, one does wonder if they believe these things, or just figure they might as well say something to make it sound good.

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    2. Re:Sounds like FUD from China by edxwelch · · Score: 1

      You mean they *had* plans to it in breeder reactors.
      Japan's fast breeder plan has been more or less mothballed after the failure of Monju and Fukushima out cry:
      http://asia.nikkei.com/Politic...

    3. Re:Sounds like FUD from China by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      All true, but there is also a certain political value in saying, "While I want to be a good neighbor and avoid producing nuclear bombs, I guess technically I could do it if I had to, not that I would." It is a bit like telling a potential thief that you're a peace-loving hippie who happens to have an antique shotgun under the bed that you'd never think of using against a robber.

  13. Japan is already a nuclear power. by Karmashock · · Score: 2

    They have nuclear power plants... and all the industry to make nuclear bombs and missiles.

    It is quite likely they have a few that they don't talk about just as Israel has a few they don't talk about. And while we're at it, South Korea probably has a couple as well.

    The forces of our coalition are the superior military force. Do not doubt it.

    An enemy might sucker punch us or be so pitiful that we don't feel it sporting to slaughter them to a man... but we are stronger. And we shall remain stronger for generations to come. Too many generations came before that planned for wars and conquests for the fruits of that effort to be be gone so quickly.

    --
    I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
    1. Re:Japan is already a nuclear power. by Zontar_Thing_From_Ve · · Score: 1

      It is quite likely they have a few that they don't talk about just as Israel has a few they don't talk about. And while we're at it, South Korea probably has a couple as well.

      Actually, it's not likely at all that either Japan or South Korea "have a few they don't talk about". Do I believe that both countries could possibly produce a nuclear weapon? Yes. But untested nukes are useless because they may not work. Neither country has ever carried out a test. Believe me, if they did, you would know about it. South Korea seems a bit iffier here because they've had some satellite launch problems so I've got a hunch that they may not necessarily be ready right now to make a nuke. With time? Yes. Absolutely. If I had to bet on it right now, I'd bet that Japan could probably produce one that would work correctly on a first try. The only only other country in Asia that was ever rumored to have nuclear weapon capability was Taiwan because they were strongly suspected of helping Israel and South Africa do nuclear testing decades ago, but as a Taiwan watcher I can say that if they ever had the capability, they abandoned it and it would be very difficult to impossible for them to quickly get that going again. In fact, I feel pretty confident that they don't have even one nuclear weapon and there is a chance that they simply don't have as much knowledge as Israel and South Africa did at the time. South Africa willingly became a nuclear free state but if you look carefully you find things where SA government officials admit that they know how to make nuclear weapons, but they chose not to do so.

    2. Re:Japan is already a nuclear power. by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      You say this like you think they don't have our research on the matter.

      Are you kidding? I note that you didn't suggest israel doesn't have a bomb... did they carry out some nuke tests? No, they didn't.

      So why can the israelis do it without a test but the japenese and koreans can't? Answer, they all can do it.

      The japanese might have the bomb broken into pieces that could be slapped into a functional weapon in moments... or they might just have the missiles ready to go.

      No one lives in the shadow of China with that much technical knowledge without having a few side projects.

      --
      I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
    3. Re:Japan is already a nuclear power. by TheSync · · Score: 1

      Neither country has ever carried out a test

      You don't need a test for a U-235 gun-type fission weapon. It is too simple to make. "Little Boy" was never tested. But purifying U-235 is a huge industrial undertaking.

      And it probably isn't too hard to work out the implosion mechanisms for a plutonium fission weapon either.

      Getting fusion-boosted weapons to work might be a tad bit harder to do without practical experience.

    4. Re:Japan is already a nuclear power. by Karmashock · · Score: 1

      What makes you think they don't have practical experience?

      Do you think we keep that sort of knowledge from the Japanese, South Koreans, and Israelis?

      We don't... they know... they've known for a long time. If they don't have nuclear weapons it is because they've chosen not to have them... but they could change their mind in an afternoon.

      --
      I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
    5. Re:Japan is already a nuclear power. by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Used to be you tested a nuke by exploding one, and if you wanted to test a fusion weapon you exploded it. Currently, you just blow up the previous stage and project how that would work if there was real fusion or fission material. The principles are well enough understood. The Japanese may have tested fission bombs already, and may have them built except for the plutonium.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    6. Re:Japan is already a nuclear power. by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 1

      Are you kidding? I note that you didn't suggest israel doesn't have a bomb... did they carry out some nuke tests? No, they didn't.

      According to Lieutenant Colonel Warner D. Farr in a report to the USAF Counterproliferation Center much lateral proliferation happened between pre-nuclear Israel and France stating "the French nuclear test in 1960 made two nuclear powers not one—such was the depth of collaboration" and "the Israelis had unrestricted access to French nuclear test explosion data." minimizing the need for early Israeli testing though this cooperation cooled following the success of the French tests.

      Citation.

      Additionally, there's the suspected tests in 1963, 1966, and 1979.

      --
      Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
  14. Seriously /.? by conscarcdr · · Score: 1

    One does not accidentally under-report plutonium stocks, much less Japan, a country known for preciseness. But then of course you would happily bash China as a knee-jerk reaction, for when hell does break loose, it's China again who absorbs the most amount of damage.

  15. Can't blame them. by Veranix · · Score: 2

    Given that the Ukraine situation has just given the world an example of what nuclear-capable allies do when a nuclear-capable country invades a country without that capability (which is essentially to finger-wag and frown at the invader), could anyone really blame Japan if they did opt to arm themselves?

  16. If I had a dollar... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    If I had a dollar for every thing that China is "worried" about, I would be posting this from my own private island.

    Hopefully, not the Senkakus.

  17. What's the news? by gman003 · · Score: 2

    It's been known for years now that Japan and Germany are "nuclear-capable" nations. They have everything they need to start a nuclear program, and could probably get there in a year if they wanted to.

    Up to now, they haven't wanted to. Japan, however, is threatened by not one but two nuclear-armed nations. China is looking to expand everywhere, and is particularly ready to fight over the Senkaku/Diaoyu islands (brief aside: if you look at them on a map, they're closest to Taiwan - let's give it to them and piss both China and Japan off, if they can't find a way to just share the oil). And then there's North Korea, which has practically made a cult out of hating America and Japan, and has been lobbing missiles towards Japan just to get attention. They haven't been stupid enough to actually attack them yet, but I certainly can't fault Japan for getting concerned about it.

    1. Re:What's the news? by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      it's even more fascinating to realize Japanese scientists and engineers are extremely gifted at optimizing and refining. I'm curious what improvements and innovations they can make to the ulam-teller system every other country with thermonuclear weapons use.

    2. Re:What's the news? by Solandri · · Score: 1

      Up to now, they haven't wanted to. Japan, however, is threatened by not one but two nuclear-armed nations.

      Three nuclear-armed nations. Part of the Kuril Islands are contested by Japan and Russia. Russia (the Soviets at the time) won control of the entire chain (plus Sakhalin) at the end of WWII as a hedge by the Allies. Basically we weren't sure if Japan would surrender after the atomic bombs were dropped. So we begged Russia to violate their non-aggression pact with Japan and invade after the bombings to put further pressure on Japan to surrender. They did so, and have claimed those territories ever since. Japan gave up most of their claims following WWII, but still claim four islands that Russia currently administrates.

    3. Re:What's the news? by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      ah, but current designs are bad, over half the energy doesn't even come from fusion. Why use dirty bomb on neighboring country? Even completely ignoring the initial fission trigger, the U-T design has fusion fuel with fission spark plug in the middle and also surrounded by fission tamper. Neutrons from fusion split u-238 which makes more neutrons to increase fusion rate, it's a fission-fusion-fission bomb.

  18. Re:Two-thirds of a metric *TON*?! by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's not really much plutonium. Sure, you can make about 40 city-sized Fat Man bombs out of it, but the scale is kind of pointless now: with a little hydrogen, you can turn a 14kg bomb up to eleven, and get yields that could blow up half of Japan instead of one small city.

    So, Japan can make 40 bombs. If Japan had only 20kg of plutonium, it could still make 3 or 4 devastating small warheads with fusion-boosted-fission, enough to blow holes in Russia or devastate the United States.

    If you think that's unrealistic, take a crash course in nuclear weapons. Fat Man had 14,000 grams of plutonium; it converted less that 1 gram into energy before the plutonium core blew apart. A fission-boosted-fusion bomb uses that explosion to trigger nuclear fusion in a second stage, which provides compressive force to hold the core together: the plutonium ball that burns a gram and blows apart now gets crushed together. With the right structure, you can burn 100 grams of the fuel, making the bomb 100 times bigger. A 1kg bomb would still be 7 times bigger than the 14kg Fat Man bomb.

    Some serious upgrades have been made to nuclear weapons. They're largely conventional explosive, with a little nuclear core; some are boosted with fusion, which sometimes has startling effects--once, they had a blast go off 100 times bigger than the models projected.

    Nuclear weapons are devastating. A handful of nuclear fuel is an arsenal. When you start getting into truckloads of fissile material, you're just wasting effort.

  19. Re:Two-thirds of a metric *TON*?! by ZombieBraintrust · · Score: 1

    Well there is the possiblility that Japan sold the plutionium. (seem suicidal but stranger things have happened)

  20. Under the increasing pressure from China by charles05663 · · Score: 2

    I would expect Japan to re-militarize. With China ever increasingly flexing its military power in the region it might be good to have a strong military in Japan. And notice it is the Chinese who are worried more then anyone else.

  21. Curious by argStyopa · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Japan has had the technical know-how to build nuclear weapons since the 1970s, certainly.

    The concern China expresses over the Japanese nuclear program is precisely the same concern a bully expresses when some local kid starts taking karate lessons.

    My main concern is that this may motivate the Chinese to increase their timetable for local seizure of various contested properties, in order to establish them as Chinese by fait accompli before Japan actually nuclearises and freezes the situation into a status quo. Of course, that would only increase Japan's motivation to militarize..

    A vicious cycle indeed; unfortunately, to expect China to behave toward its neighbors as anything other than Fascist Italy is apparently unrealistic.

    --
    -Styopa
    1. Re:Curious by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      Seems unlikely since the US has stated that the US-Japan mutual defense treaty would be triggered by a Chinese grab of this disputed territory.

      If China doesn't want to encourage Japan to build nuclear weapons they really need to be less belligerent.

    2. Re:Curious by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      The Isrealis (and I'm sure many others) figured out a long time ago that you can't justify going to war over building homes in disputed areas if you care about international opinion. If somebody settles people on disputed islands, then they're as good as their property. Nobody is going to bomb an island full of civilians over a border dispute. At least, not since WWI/II.

    3. Re:Curious by khallow · · Score: 1

      Seems unlikely since the US has stated that the US-Japan mutual defense treaty would be triggered by a Chinese grab of this disputed territory.

      How would that be relevant? Why should we expect the US to do something, if the grab happened now, for example? The treaty has to have teeth in order for it to be a deterrent.

    4. Re:Curious by argStyopa · · Score: 1

      The US has stated that, true.

      But that's only one (minor) part of the gearwheel of geopolitics:
      - will the US actually do it?
      - most importantly, do the Chinese BELIEVE the US will do it?

      What spectators seem to regularly misunderstand about diplomacy is that it's not what a country will actually do, it's what the OTHER country believes you'll do that matters.

      The road to pretty much every war, ever, is paved with mis-estimations of what one's opponent's response "should have been".

      It's why clear communication and credibility is utterly essential between states.
      The problem, of course, is when a country believes it can leverage its "reputation" beyond its actual limits...someone will eventually call the bluff, and then *every* assertion made is open to question until credibility is re-established.

      It's why only Nixon could connect with China - when he made a threat, other statesmen felt he was actually crazy and desperate enough to carry through with it. Agree or disagree about whether GWB made the right move in invading Iraq, his credibility in threatening military action was unquestionable. Obama is perceived widely as an intellectualist milquetoast, so his 'threats' and 'red lines' are inherently disbelieved - every time he makes such a statement and doesn't follow through, it merely reinforces this perception.

      So now we have a revanchist China and a US with a diplomatic quiver that's essentially empty of any confrontational tools EXCEPT two: 1) concession, or 2) actual deployment of forces....the worst, least flexible place to be.

      --
      -Styopa
  22. Robotech by ArcadeMan · · Score: 1

    Let them open the vaults and show the world that they're not just imaginary robots seen in cartoon anymore.

  23. Real reason for suing peace.... by jozmala · · Score: 1

    Japan knew it has lost and All it could hope was make cost of victory high enough for US agree to reasonable peace terms through soviet mediation. And keep some of its empire on continent. However as soon as soviet declared war on Japan there was imminent risk of loosing Japanese Nuclear weapons program to soviet hands AND invasion and annexation of more Japanese territory by soviets who Japanese knew where willing to sacrifice lots of men in order to achieve their goals.
    Nuclear bombs where not decisive but they came about time in which situation changed for Japanese from poor to terrible. And for effect of nuclear bombs there where not many targets available anymore to use them, conventional bombing had dealt with cities already.
    Now here's a question IF soviets would of kept their non-aggression pact, then could Japan hold out for a year so that their Manhattan project in North Korea could of resulted some real counter bomb, especially with combined with V2 rockets Japanese got From Germans before their surrender. Lets say Japanese puts one V2 with fatman sized bomb in middle of invasion fleet, and then asks USA for status quo ante bellum, I think they could of gotten that. They could bluff that they have nuclear V2:s on submarines Waiting to revenge Nagasakin on continental USA.

    --
    ©God :Copyright is exclusive right for creator to determine the use of his creation.
    1. Re:Real reason for suing peace.... by mlyle · · Score: 1

      V2 had nowhere near the payload capacity for an early nuclear device. One tonne / 300 kilometers. Compare to more than four tonnes for little boy / fat man.

      Also, Japan just didn't have the industrial capacity to wage war any longer-- it's just a question of how costly invasion was going to be. You can't tool up to build V2's and nukes in the face of invasion.

      Also, there's the question of how many more times we would have nuked Japan in the meantime. We were about to be producing three per month. Probably would be good to build a stockpile, so maybe drop one every couple of weeks?

    2. Re:Real reason for suing peace.... by Talderas · · Score: 1

      The takeaway from Japan is that we had not yet defeated them militarily. That had at least five armies worth of combat ready troops in Japan, Korea, and China along with supplies to conduct a protracted defensive effort. Yes their air forces and navy were crushed but that hardly matters. The situation Japan was in when it surrendered is identical to the situation under which Germany surrendered in the Great War. No foreign troops on her homeland. You have to be delicate about how you handle such a country. See instead Germany post World War Two. We had troops all over their country. They didn't control any foreign territory. It was clear that they were militarily defeated. They had no choice but to submit to the unconditional surrender.

      Numericly speaking, we sent 22 divisions to the pacific theater. The typical army breakdown at that time was three to four divisions to a corps and two to four corps for an army. Strictly speaking, we had maybe as many troops in the Pacific as Japan had defending its mainland. Comparatively, we fielded 61 divisions in Europe.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
  24. Not only Japan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    It is pretty obvious that there a numerous developed nations in the world which are capable of producing nuclear weapons in a rather short time period. These countries include at least Japan, Sweden and Finland. They have the know-how, the ingredients and other resources required for developing a nuclear weapon. All it requires is the political will and the absolute need of such a weapon.

  25. US no longer protects countries by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    If I were Japan or any country in Europe, I would be arming my country to the teeth. Just look at what happened when Russia decided it wanted to take a bite out of Ukraine. Obama's sanctions against Russia aren't going to protect your countries. Look at Obama's response to China invading Vietnam.

  26. I'm astonished... by Zaatxe · · Score: 1

    No time travel jokes so far?

    --
    So say we all
  27. Imperial Japan's imminent surrender is a myth ... by perpenso · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Japan was already suing for peace.

    No, Imperial Japan was not suing for peace. A few diplomats were quietly floating the idea with Russia and living in complete fear that they would be discovered by the military and summarily executed for doing so. Even when the Emperor had decided to surrender and recorded a surrender message for the country elements of the military attacked the Imperial Palace to capture and destroy that recording and to "rescue" the emperor from the politicians who were leading him "astray".

    "as many as one thousand officers raided the Imperial palace on the evening of August 14, to destroy the recording. The rebels were confused by the layout of the Imperial palace and were unable to find the recording, which had been hidden in a pile of documents. The recording was successfully smuggled out of the palace in a laundry basket of women's underwear and broadcast the following day, although another attempt was made to stop it from being played at the radio station."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H...

    The majority of the Imperial Japanese leadership would only consider an armistice, a peace treaty, like that of WW1 (1919) that would leave Imperial Japanese leadership intact and the home islands unoccupied.

    They had run out of bombs, and the kamikaze were coming because they had no fuel to get back to Japan; die in the ocean, or die smashing your plane into a military target.

    No. Weapons and ammunition had been stockpiled. This included kamikaze aircraft and boats. Also Kamikazes took off with the full knowledge of and the intent to crash their aircraft into their target.

    The arguments around this drift over time. A lot of veterans have started telling me Japan was ready to drop plague-infested fleas on America. They'd hit California, and it would wipe out the entire nation. They've already tested them on China, and it worked. ... except China wasn't wiped out, and Japan could never reach California.

    The test in China was a limited test. They bombed a couple of villages and sent doctors in to examine the results. The tests included the use of a ceramic bomb casing that fractured and dispersed fleas using a very small charge that allowed most of the fleas to survive. Imperial Japan had successfully, although ineffectively, attacked the US pacific coast with balloons that drifted across the Pacific and dropped incendiary bombs. However the real plan regarding the fleas was to use submarine based aircraft. Yes, submarine based. Imperial Japan developed and built several submarines with a waterproof compartment on top that could house two or three aircraft. They were technological marvels that the US captured, studied, and sunk to avoid having to share them with the Russians.

    The whole story paints a narrative where varied analysis tells you that either it's made-up completely, or Japan has a weapon that kills as many people as a conventional drop-bomb.

    "This research led to the development of the defoliation bacilli bomb and the flea bomb used to spread bubonic plague.[28] Some of these bombs were designed with ceramic (porcelain) shells, an idea proposed by Ishii in 1938. These bombs enabled Japanese soldiers to launch biological attacks, infecting agriculture, reservoirs, wells, and other areas with anthrax, plague-carrier fleas, typhoid, dysentery, cholera, and other deadly pathogens."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U... "They were submarine aircraft carriers able to carry three Aichi M6A Seiran aircraft underwater to their destinations ...The I-400-class was designed with the range to travel anywhere in the world and return"
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I...

    The truth is

  28. Personally by maroberts · · Score: 2

    .I love the way Japan's Defense Force isn't really an army/navy/airforce through clever use of terminology. Take this aircraft carrier^H^H^H^H destroyer for example...

    --

    Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
    Karma: Chameleon

  29. Re:Two-thirds of a metric *TON*?! by Tyler+Durden · · Score: 1

    And really, 640 kg of unused plutonium ought to be enough for anybody.

    --
    Happy people make bad consumers.
  30. Re:Isotopes by jae471 · · Score: 3, Informative

    Pu-240 is only a serious concern in the gun-barrel design. Pretty much everything since Little Boy (and everything before, actually) was/is of an implosion design.

  31. Re:Imperial Japan's imminent surrender is a myth . by Talderas · · Score: 1

    It's also worth noting that Okinawa was not nearly as bloody as it should have been because, if I recally correctly, one division ended up performing a banzai charge and got itself wiped out. Had it not performed said banzai charge it would have been capable of inflicting even further US casualties at Okinawa.

    --
    "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
  32. Re:Imperial Japan's imminent surrender is a myth . by camperdave · · Score: 1

    Reminds me of the US bat fire bombs that were supposed to be dropped on Japan. Basically, bats were outfitted with tiny incendiary devices. They were loaded into compartments on trays. The trays were loaded into a special bomb casing. When the bomb dropped, a parachute deployed, and the trays were lowered. The bats would fly off and find nice quiet spots to roost: attics, eaves, etc. When the time delay on the incendiary device expired, dozens of fires would be started. Because they would be in relatively inaccessible places the fire would have ample time to spread before being noticed.

    Unfortunately, during one of the tests, several bats got loose and nestled in the attics and eaves of several of the buildings around the airfield (including a fuel depot), and burned them to the ground.

    --
    When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
  33. Re:Two-thirds of a metric *TON*?! by Rich0 · · Score: 1

    Probably depends on what you measure.

    Are we talking about the mass of Pu that was fissioned into other elements, or are we talking about the mass of Pu that was converted into energy? If you add up the mass of the fission products in a nuclear bomb they have less mass than what you start out with, because the released nuclear binding energy actually has mass. It is just E=mc^2 - in theory it works for any kind of energy-releasing reaction but when you get to nuclear warheads the masses actually become something measured in the same kinds of units you use on cans in the grocery store.

    So, the mass of Pu that was converted to energy is much less than the mass of Pu that was fissioned.

  34. China's 'hostile' neighborhood by unixisc · · Score: 3, Informative

    Who are they?

    Russia - yeah, they have nukes and are armed, but everyone knows that in their Soviet incarnation, their main objective was the West. Yeah, they had a rivalry w/ China during the Cold War, but after that ended, China & Russia have been a de-facto bloc, agreeing on everything, whether it's support for Syria or Iran, opposition to Islamic Jihadis on their borders & so on.

    Mongolia - has never been a threat to China since the Khanates; if anything, it's been the other way around in the last few centuries. Mongolia in fact embraced Russia so that the latter could keep them independent from China

    North Korea - yeah, they have nukes, but they've always been a vassal of Beijing. Since when do countries feel threatened by their friends having nukes?

    South Korea - yeah, they have US troops there, no nukes, and those troops are there to stop the Kims from walking into Seoul. Not there to take a stroll to Beijing or skate over the Great wall.

    Japan - hasn't been a threat to anyone, but given North Korean posturing, and China backing them, who can blame them if the post WWII restriction on Japan rearming is removed and they decide to arm themselves?

    Taiwan - yeah, a real threat to China, whose potential declaration of independence would bring down the Communist regime, given the way Beijing reacts to such moves

    Vietnam/Malaysia/Philippines - have dispute w/ China over islands in the South China sea, whose possession would threaten China's very existence

    Laos - still in China's orbit.

    Myanmar - regime very friendly to China

    India - does have nukes, but this was a decade long effort since the 1960s, when China defeated India in a war. India never needed nukes against Pakistan, who they defeated in 1947/65/71/95, but they did recognize that they were at a disadvantage against China, who had conquered Tibet, and could devour Bhutan and Nepal. Nepal now has a pro-Maoist regime, and India, despite its stockpiles, now has a nuclear Pakistan to worry about, not just China.

    China does have one genuine threat that I agree w/ them on - the Jihadi threat on their West by the Uyghurs. In the ex Soviet 'stans', the Islamic movement of Turkestan, which is a Jihadi campaign to restore the Timuride empire, is out to topple secular regimes in those countries in order to achieve that. Included in their Jihad is the liberation of Xinxiang, or 'East Turkestan'. This has been a real - as opposed to imagined - cause of worry to Beijing, and has caused them to dilute the Turkic populations there by settling Han Chinese there in huge numbers.

    So yeah, China does have real threats. Japan simply ain't one of them. Not unless and until the Chinese totally unleash the North Koreans.

    1. Re:China's 'hostile' neighborhood by DrXym · · Score: 1

      A little reading comprehension might help. I didn't say every country that has borders with China is a threat but yes it is surrounded by potentially hostile powers with nuclear weapons. And it's easy to see why they would be worried if Japan joined those nations.

    2. Re:China's 'hostile' neighborhood by unixisc · · Score: 1

      My post pretty much showed how none of the powers bordering China are a threat to China. Only threat is the stateless Uyghur movement, which is trying to carve out a good portion of Xinxiang out of China. Other than that, it's China that's the hostile neighbor of all those countries - South Korea, Taiwan, India and Japan.

    3. Re: China's 'hostile' neighborhood by i.kazmi · · Score: 1

      So you support Iran's attempts to start a nuclear program, which may or may not lead to nuclear weapons?

      I guess Central American and South American countries should be getting nuclear arsenals too...

  35. Re:Two-thirds of a metric *TON*?! by afidel · · Score: 2

    Three or four bombs won't devastate a continent. The tsar bomba, the largest device ever tested at 50MT, had a destructive overpressure radius of ~35km, enough to flatten a capital city, but hardly enough to scare a continent. Plus such large devices are impractical, you have to get a large slow bomber into enemy territory. No, a few dozen half megaton warheads like the W88 but with less precise designs (the W88 is designed to take out missile silos) would be sufficient for MAD.

    --
    There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
  36. Re:Nuclear weapons are the natural counter to Chin by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

    Except then they nuke you back...

    --
    Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
  37. Re:Isotopes by TangoMargarine · · Score: 1

    Little Boy didn't use plutonium at all. It was U-235 and U-238 for the rest.

    --
    Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
  38. Re:Why so much Clinton bashing? by unixisc · · Score: 1

    And this is related to the GP's post... how exactly?

  39. Re:Imperial Japan's imminent surrender is a myth . by Calavar · · Score: 1

    Read this page: The REAL Reason America Used Nuclear Weapons Against Japan

    General Eisenhower, Admiral Leahy, General MacArthur, General LeMay, and several other high ranking US officers said that the dropping of the US bomb was completely unnecessary. If the US simply allowed the institution of the emperor to stand (which we ended up doing in the end anyway), the Japanese would have agreed to surrender far before Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Perhaps even before Okinawa. There were two main reasons for dropping the bomb: 1.) To gather data on how to maximize the damage that a nuclear weapon could cause on an urban environment. This would be useful in a hypothetical future war with the USSR. 2.) Racism. Many Americans of the time saw the Japanese as subhuman. We use lab rats in experiments. Why not Japanese?

  40. Re:Two-thirds of a metric *TON*?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    If you think that's unrealistic, take a crash course in nuclear weapons. Fat Man had 14,000 grams of plutonium; it converted less that 1 gram into energy before the plutonium core blew apart. A fission-boosted-fusion bomb uses that explosion to trigger nuclear fusion in a second stage, which provides compressive force to hold the core together: the plutonium ball that burns a gram and blows apart now gets crushed together.

    Um ... this isn't quite right. The stages of development are:

    1. Pure fission weapon, like Fat Man. As you say, these are inefficient.

    2. Fusion-boosted fission. The fission reaction provides the heat and pressure to cause fusion in a deutirium/tritium mix in the core of the plutonium mass. This doesn't add much to the energy output directly, but it produces a whole lot of high-energy neutrons, which cause additional fission reactions in the plutonium. It's *not* a matter of the fusion reaction providing a compressive force to hold the core together: it just allows a lot more of the plutonium to fission before the whole core blows itself apart

    3. A full Teller-Ulam design. This is the two-part device of which you may have been thinking. The first part is, as above, a fusion-boosted fission warhead. The x-rays from this detonation are used to compress and heat a secondary assembly, which consists of an outer U-238 (non-fissile) tamper, an inner lithium-deuteride layer, and a plutonium core. These react in reverse order: the core is compressed and becomes supercritical, undergoing fission; the neutrons from the fission produce tritium from the lithium, which then fuses with the deuterium; and the neutrons from this fusion breed the outer layer of U-238 into fissile Pu-239, which then fissions. The mass and momentum of the heavy outer "tamper" layer, driven inwards by the reaction from the primary assembly, keep the whole thing together long enough for most of the fuel to react.

    4. Multi-stage wedding-cake design. You use a two-stage device as above to drive a tertiary stage, like a big version of the secondary stage. In theory, you could string on additional stages after this ... but no one needs a bomb that big.

  41. Hey China...Don't antagonize Japan by robbiedo · · Score: 1

    Somehow I get the feeling China is creating there own problem in their push to regional dominance through provocations.

  42. Imp. Japan rejected surrender after first a-bomb by perpenso · · Score: 1

    General Eisenhower, Admiral Leahy, General MacArthur, General LeMay, and several other high ranking US officers said that the dropping of the US bomb was completely unnecessary.

    The perspective one has at the time the decision was made, with Okinawa fresh in one's mind, and one has after occupation and boots on the ground inspecting the enemy's documents and preparations and interviewing its leadership are two very different things. The comments by the above are often made decades after the war, one in particular admits "I arrived at this conclusion after talking with a number of Japanese officials who had been closely associated with the decision of the then Japanese government, to reject the ultimatum, as it was presented."

    If the US simply allowed the institution of the emperor to stand (which we ended up doing in the end anyway), the Japanese would have agreed to surrender far before Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Perhaps even before Okinawa.

    Note that the Emperor's position in post-war Japan was left open to a degree, more on this at the end of this post.

    While the Emperor's safety and symbolic position was permitted to continue after occupation it was done so **after** an investigation into whether the Emperor was responsible for war crimes. We could not have determined the Emperor's status with respect to being a war criminal until after boots on the ground, i.e. after surrender.

    Regarding the suggestion of a demonstration. The US had only two bombs and the materials necessary for a third would not be ready for some time. Its not clear if those proposing a demonstration were aware of this. The value of a such a demonstration was speculative, both in its results and its reception. Keep in mind that military and industrial targets that may have been used were already heavily hit by conventional weapons and there was debate as to whether atomic damage could be distinguished from prior convention damage, and whether atomic damage might be interpreted as being much lower than its actual effect due to prior damage. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were on the target list because they were in relatively pristine condition and the damage due to atomic bombing could not be misreported.

    Most important of all, after the atomic bombing of Hiroshima the Imperial Japanese government refused to surrender and indicated a willingness to fight on.
    "After the successful atomic bombing of Hiroshima on August 6, President Truman in a widely broadcast speech, picked up by Japanese news agencies, warned that if Japan failed to accept the terms of the declaration, it could "expect a rain of ruin from the air, the like of which has never been seen on this earth."[7] As a result, Prime Minister Suzuki felt compelled to meet the Japanese press, to whom he reiterated his government's commitment to ignore the Allies' demands and fight on."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P...

    So in reality, at the time of the decision (1) Truman did not know whether the Emperor was a war criminal responsible for the torture and execution of American POWs. (2) Only had two weapons available in the pre-invasion time frame and the value of a demonstration was unknown. (3) Had Okinawa fresh in his memory.

    Again, note that after the atomic bombing of Hiroshima the Imperial Japanese government indicated a willingness to fight on.

    There were two main reasons for dropping the bomb: 1.) To gather data on how to maximize the damage that a nuclear weapon could cause on an urban environment. This would be useful in a hypothetical future war with the USSR.

    Your reference suggests no such thing, unless you are making a very strange interpretation of Halsey's flippant comment about scientists and their toys. While the value of deterring possible Russian aggression was a consideration it was secondary, and as history shows not necessarily an unfounded f

  43. Re:Imp. Japan rejected surrender after first a-bom by Calavar · · Score: 1

    The comments by the above are often made decades after the war, one in particular admits "I arrived at this conclusion after talking with a number of Japanese officials who had been closely associated with the decision of the then Japanese government, to reject the ultimatum, as it was presented."

    Yes, some of these quotes are evidence that hindsight is 20/20, but that still counters your claims in your previous post that the Japanese would have continued to fight on. And then there are the quotes like these:

    When I asked General MacArthur about the decision to drop the bomb, I was surprised to learn he had not even been consulted. What, I asked, would his advice have been? He replied that he saw no military justification for the dropping of the bomb.

    That's right, MacArthur said that if he was asked his opinion at that time he would not have seen a reason to use the bomb.

    the Secretary, upon giving me the news of the successful bomb test in New Mexico, and of the plan for using it, asked for my reaction, apparently expecting a vigorous assent. During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary

    In this one Eisenhower said that he thought the dropping of the bomb was completely unnecessary as soon as he heard the news.

    While the Emperor's safety and symbolic position was permitted to continue after occupation it was done so **after** an investigation into whether the Emperor was responsible for war crimes. We could not have determined the Emperor's status with respect to being a war criminal until after boots on the ground, i.e. after surrender.

    The actual instrument of surrender said nothing about an investigation into war crimes. In fact, there was no mention of crimes at all. Regarding the Emperor, it said

    We hereby undertake for the Emperor, the Japanese Government, and their successors to carry out the provisions of the Potsdam Declaration in good faith, and to issue whatever orders and take whatever action may be required by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers or by any other designated representative of the Allied Powers for the purpose of giving effect to that declaration.

    There was also a tacit agreement along with the final surrender that the Emperor would not under any circumstances be investigated for war crimes:
    http://www.pacificwar.org.au/J...
    http://www.japanfocus.org/-her...

    Your reference suggests no such thing, unless you are making a very strange interpretation of Halsey's flippant comment about scientists and their toys. While the value of deterring possible Russian aggression was a consideration it was secondary, and as history shows not necessarily an unfounded fear.

    No, this reference does not suggest it, but it is widely known that Hiroshima was spared conventional bombing so that if it was attacked with a nuclear device, it would be easier to analyze the effects. Since several generals from the previous source said was of limited strategic value, this seems to be the only reason for the bombing Hiroshima over a more militarily significant target, or (if demoralizing the Japanese was the only objective) an unpopulated area.

    You've gone from strange interpretations to just plain making up nonsense. In the future you may want to restate your irrational belief that Truman considered them experimental subjects into perha

  44. Morale lessons from the guy with the bigger stick by Bitbyte_x · · Score: 1

    I do like how China is trying to give a morale lesson while their cyber devision attacks every country out there, destabilising the world in the worst way possible. The means to destroy electronic infrastructure in my own personal opinion is more devastating then destroying physical. It is also good to point out in really basic terms, The guy with the bigger stick is complaining because the guy over there has the means to build a bigger better stick. I would just laugh at this because it obviously shows just how petty China is as a country in general, The fact that Japan has the means and ways to build the biggest arsenal and doesn't proves they have the correct morale compass for now. Mean while China is sat there with a big grin on their facing and the wooden spoon in the bowl. Yes it maybe a true concern but it is hard to take them seriously while they are being the electronic aggressor on every single front compromising both government and private computer systems. I mean ask your self the question what are you more worried about ? the fact China's cyber military could destroy and wipe out all of a water treatment plants in one swift move and then overload the power grids so all of our power infrastructure is rendered useless. Or that Japan "in theory" could make X amount of bombs but chooses not to ? hahaha its a no brainer.

  45. Re:Imp. Japan rejected surrender after first a-bom by perpenso · · Score: 1

    Yes, some of these quotes are evidence that hindsight is 20/20, but that still counters your claims in your previous post that the Japanese would have continued to fight on.

    Note that my statement was that **imminent** surrender was a myth. Not eventual surrender. And while the blockade did its work the conventional attacks would continue, casualties would mount on both sides and famine and disease would become increasing threats that could claim many more.

    And again, after the atomic bombing of Hiroshima the Imperial Japanese Prime Minister public stated to the Japanese press that the government rejects the surrender demand and will fight on. The government in fact never reached any sort of consensus to surrender, it was only the personal decision and intervention of the Emperor that led to surrender. Such intervention is a fluke of history, not something that observers at the time could have predicted. The words and actions of the government were to the contrary, to continue the fight. The notion that imminent surrender was foreseen by some is a myth.

    That's right, MacArthur said that if he was asked his opinion at that time he would not have seen a reason to use the bomb.

    MacArthur was somewhat unique in that he was willing to give the Emperor a pass on his responsibility for initiating the war and any war crimes that occurred. His opinion on ending the war in weeks was entirely contingent upon making such a concession.

    Note that such a concession was not actually made, after the surrender the Emperor was in fact investigated to determine his culpability with respect to initiating the war and with war crimes that occurred. No evidence of his culpability was found. The Imperial Japanese had not in fact received the sort of absolute guarantee that they originally desired.

    Some historians say MacArthur helped suppress evidence to get his desired outcome, to ensure an easy occupation and/or as a reward for personally intervening with the government and ordering a surrender.
    "Hirohito and all members of the imperial family implicated in the war such as Prince Chichibu, Prince Asaka, Prince Takeda and Prince Higashikuni were exonerated from criminal prosecutions by MacArthur, with the help of Bonner Fellers who allowed the major criminal suspects to coordinate their stories so that the Emperor would be spared from indictment."
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J...
    True or not, the fact remains that the Emperor was at risk of indictment for war crimes after the surrender.

    All this aside, MacArthur's objection to the atomic bombing was largely moral in nature and to him a blockade seemed more moral than atomic bombing cities. While an interesting point to debate, it is not evidence of imminent surrender.

    In this one Eisenhower said that he thought the dropping of the bomb was completely unnecessary as soon as he heard the news.

    Also based on morality, also an opinion dependent upon no prosecution of the Emperor.

    There was also a tacit agreement along with the final surrender that the Emperor would not under any circumstances be investigated for war crimes

    Tacit seems a gross overstatement. More accurate would be a grand conspiracy to destroy evidence on the part of the Japanese and a willingness by MacArthur to cooperate or at least tolerate such efforts. Again to ease occupation and/or to reward the Emperor for his personal intervention to end the war. The Emperor never had the immunity the Imperial government had originally desired, if evidence had survived and been found prosecution of the Emperor was a possibility.

    it is widely known that Hiroshima was spared conventional bombing so that if it was attacked with a nuclear device, it would be easier to analyze the effects.

    It is erroneously to deduce

  46. Re:when can history be forgotten? by Cryacin · · Score: 1

    Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

    --
    Science advances one funeral at a time- Max Planck
  47. Re:Two-thirds of a metric *TON*?! by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

    There have been designs for 250MT nuclear bombs. They stopped building bigger bombs because they worked out how to use boosted fission to no practical purpose: a single, small H-Bomb can blow up the state of Colorado in its entirety. This isn't strategically useful.

  48. Re:when can history be forgotten? by aminorex · · Score: 1

    history doesn't repeat. it merely rhymes.

    --
    -I like my women like I like my tea: green-
  49. Bullying by NewYork · · Score: 1

    China likes bullying. Japan will retaliate with nuclear weapons.
    "Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it." --George Santayana