Slashdot Mirror
Satellite Images Show Russians Shelling Ukraine
U.S. officials today made public satellite imagery which they say proves that Russian forces have been shelling eastern Ukraine in a campaign to assist rebel groups fighting Ukraine’s government.
The U.S. Office of the Director of National Intelligence, which released the civilian-taken satellite images Sunday, said they show visual evidence that Russia has been firing shells across the border at Ukrainian military forces. Officials also said the images show that Russia-backed separatists have used heavy artillery, provided by Russia, in attacks on Ukrainian forces from inside Ukraine.
One image dated July 25/26 shows what DNI claims is “ground scarring” on the Russian side of the border from artillery aimed at Ukrainian military units in Ukraine, as well as the resultant ground craters on the Ukrainian side of the border:
Eurasia has always been at war with Eastasia.
The side that apparently blew a 300-civilian passenger jet out of the sky because they're too dumb to know what a Boeing looks like is getting direct military support from a major regional power which just happens to have nuclear weapons.
And I thought my hometown of Detroit was fucked.
Wow. What a surprise. Russia is involved in the conflict in Ukraine.
Why can't they be like the UK and Scotland where they all sit down and discuss it over a nice cup of tea? Then if they want their independence they can have it. No big fuss.
A) There have been political articles on Slashdot for as long as I've been a subscriber. Might as well get used to it.
B) Didn't want to read it? Then why did you?
*** *** You're just jealous 'cause the voices talk to me... ***
Maybe it would help if you could tell us who it was that forced you to read and comment on this item?
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
If you don't want to read it, go to the next article.
*** *** You're just jealous 'cause the voices talk to me... ***
Hardly surprising. The last time the Russians got this aggressive was their invasion of Afghanistan under Jimmy Carter of Most Unpleasant Memory.
When Americans are stupid enough to elect a wimp, the nasties of the world get aggressive. And in the case of Obama, we're looking at a superwimp.
These two pictures convey the problem perfectly. First Obama, helmet and momma jeans on a paved sidewalk:
http://www.streetsblog.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/06_16/obama_bike.jpg
Now Putin on a horse not bothering with helmets, a shirt or pavement:
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01456/horse_1456083i.jpg
All we're waiting for is an incident like Carter's encounter with that "killer rabbit" that was immortalized in this song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFAOCBY8zrI
You could have saved some typing by not opening the article. But then you would not have been able to write this long pointless OT rant.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
I agree to an extent. It's not really what this site is about.
"This submission is pretty much irrelevant here at Slashdot."
Yeah, nobody here cares about a 21st century Sarajevo.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
I bet you could not tell the difference between a civilian plane and a military plane flying at 30,000 feet over a war zone either.
I bet he can't tell them apart either, but I also bet he wouldn't fire a missile at it. *Firing a missile anyway* is the important thing here, not a failure to identify the aircraft.
Wreck their economy. It worked once and the way Russia acts it would work again, no doubt. Russia has only a GDP a little better than Italy and less than Germany, France or the UK. They are utterly weak and exactly because they know it they have to act like a bully. Russia is a dwarf trying to convince itself it is a giant by making others think it is.
you must admit that this military conflict is somewhat different from previous ones in that many sides to the conflict resort to media campaigns using interwebs etc that is the scale that I personally have not seen before. If not for any other reason it is interesting to have it on /. and run statistics on he bitching from each side....
Since you seem to have the equipment, now show us some evidence about what happened to the MH17 flight.
Dude, you've got extras, just accept it.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
The reason we're still "blathering about non-existant [sic] WMDS" is because "WMD" is a shorthand for "nukes". The yellowcake uranium evidence, the aluminum tubes that "were intended as components of centrifuges to enrich uranium", the quote "we don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud".
All of the WMD arguments for war were in the context of nukes, not chemical weapons.
So yes, you're technically correct - which is the best kind of correct - but you're also missing the point. None of the WMDs that we were warned about were found.
Not to mention if chemical weapons were a casus belli, just about every country in the world would be a legitimate target.
Last post!
Holy crap, this AC got modded up +2 already? I notice on this story that the stupidest comments so far are all ACs. There should be a rule that whenever someone says how some leader here or there is screwing up, then the commenter is required to say how they would do it better. As everyone who has made it there seems to have found out once elected President of the USA (or Prime Minister of somewhere else), the problems are a lot more complicated when you actually have to deal with them and then the fallout (maybe literally in this case) from your actions. This parent AC is a troll and should be modded as such.
"The last time the Russians got this aggressive was their invasion of Afghanistan under Jimmy Carter"
I think you're forgetting that they invaded Georgia when George W. Bush was president.
I think that counts as pretty aggressive.
Mid-east fighting, 2000 years and going strong. Yes, clearly not having peace there is Obama's fault...
I just don't get this bravado from some Americans that think we should be directly involved in every conflict around the globe. Ironically, all these global conflicts are a huge drain on the national treasury. Can't cut the budgets and join a few wars at the same time.
"Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
So what are they going to do about it? Give another speech about how Russia is acting against its own interest?
Gaza can send thousands of rockets targeting Iraeli citizens and they won't even say a word.
Iran can make nuclear weapons and they won't even say a word.
Russia can take over Crimea and they get bashed harshly with... a speech.
ISIS can take over Iraq and kill thousands and they won't say a word.
Any country depending on the US for support is lost and left to fend for themselves.
However, if you DARE mention the government should cut a dime of spending you will be labled a terrorist and the IRS, and DOJ will be used illegally to harrass you and oppress you. This administration is far harsher on peaceful critics of its policies than it is on genocide or mass killings of allies.
What a joke.
Out of all those conflicts you posted I can not think of a single one worth the life of even 1 member of the US military. Lets Europe take care of itself, let Saudia Arabia and the other gulf states take care of Iran and the sunni, shia conflict. The USA has been the worlds police force for too many decades, we need to take care of things here at home. Everytime we try to intervene in another country's conflicts since WWII it has been a disaster except perhaps the 1991 Gulf War, President Obama is keeping us out of conflicts we do not need to fight. You call it weakness. I call it wisdom.
Real veto is nukes and aircraft carrier groups. If your nation doesn't have any, accept your new limited sovereignty.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
* Gaza can send thousands of rockets targeting Israeli citizens and they won't even say a word.
Affects Americans right now? -- no. Is there a clear course of action in this conflict that will be best for America in the future? -- no.
* Iran can make nuclear weapons and they won't even say a word.
Affects Americans right now? -- no. Is there a clear course of action in this conflict that will be best for America in the future? -- no.
* Russia can take over Crimea and they get bashed harshly with... a speech.
Affects Americans right now? -- no. Is there a clear course of action in this conflict that will be best for America in the future? -- no.
*ISIS can take over Iraq and kill thousands and they won't say a word.
Affects Americans right now? -- no. Is there a clear course of action in this conflict that will be best for America in the future? -- no.
Now here's a bullet point that you didn't mention:
* Ubiquitous healthcare for Americans
Affects Americans right now? -- YES! Was it a clear course of action that will be best for America in the future? -- YES!
I do not trust the autocrat in Moscow. I do not trust his military and I have a good reason for that. Yet I find it odd that our support for Kiev is so strong and without any conditions. Last time this happened in Europe - the results was a civil war in Yugoslavia and besides all the piles of corpses in Bosnia an ethnic cleansing of Krajina - something that nobody seems to remember anymore.
Were the satellites running Linux or something?
Sorry; your claims aren't close to 'barely credible'.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Wants President to do everything in the world, doesn't want to pay for it. Definitely sounds like a shill.
Ha? Actually, no, Russians and Ukrainians have only had one conflict and it was very, very minor. Traditionally, there were always the closest of allies. If Russia's invasion of Georgia was Putin's Czechoslovakia (because Putin has turned Russia into a fascist state), then Ukraine's would be Putin's Austria (going back to the Hitler analogy). Oh, and the fact that satellites were used to expose Russian lies does make this about benefits of technology. So putting it on Slashdot is not outrageous.
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
The USA can release images that proved Russia is shelling Ukraine, but hey are not capable to release the proves that the rebels/separatists shot down the airliner, even though they told us like a hundred times that they have irrefutable prove?
And this from the country that is drone-bombing the world ... Seriously, do these people actually listen to themselves?
captcha: inheres
I spent a good 30min try to find the highlighted region on Google Maps. Couldn't find it. Any help?
Obama's foreign policy decisions have basically been exactly what a majority of it's citizens want. It's not pretty by any means but he is fulfilling his promises in this one area of state.
But Russia is the neo-fascist country. So your analogy does not work.
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
yes indeed Iraq used chemical weapons against Kurds and earlier against Iran. There is some evidence that Iraq used smallpox i.e. biological agents against Iran during the war too. Yet the search for WMD after the second Iraq-US war did not yield any evidence and that is what we are talking about. The way the whole operation was started is already a pattern in US approach to military interventions - try to misinform as much as possible, make impossible claims and then say that because requests were not satisfactory fulfilled sends the marines. Outright lies to UN security council however are rare. Besides WMD there were also these claims that Iraq helps Al Qaida for which eventually there was no evidence either - FF to today and we see ISIS that seems to be more radical that al qaida that US tried to remove from Iraq.
Try 6000 years. They were bashing each other over the head way back then as well according to the ancient history book I read.
The wars aren't what's bankrupting the budget, it is the 2/3 of "non-discretionary" expenses that are dong that job quite nicely.
The U.S. is involved world wide because the U.S. has defense agreements and economic interests world wide. The U.S. had their head stuck up their ass before WW II and then WW II happened. It happened because "the world" didn't have the balls to stop German and Japanese aggression when it would have been easy.
Currently, Putin and Muslim radicals and Chinese expansionism will create another fucking world-wide mess, and two of them have nuclear weapons. As soon as Pakistan drops their panties for the radicals, the Muslim jihadis will have them as well. It's going to be wonderful world.
Putin is an idiot. He started playing games with Ukraine and never saw the long game.
Doubtful this evidence is fabricated. The US isn't going to fabricate evidence that can be corroborated by others independently. Its not like any of those images are too small for Google Earth. The EU, China, Japanese, and all even some commercial interests have satellites that can see the same thing. Now the US has told them where to look, others can see for themselves. Nobody (except maybe Pravda) has called BS on this.
But the Russians may be right about a US lead smear campaign..... This is all about sanctions by the EU, which is really all about who sells the EU Natural Gas. The US has some serious gas reserves that is itching to sell for good money. Hard to do if EU is purchasing from Gazprom.
But this is all on Putin. If he didn't provide the smear material, the US couldn't use it.
Yeah, I mean c'mon. Also, Whats up with all these stories on slashdot about computers and computing devices?
Solid state microprocessors have been around since the 1960's. All these computing devices are just modifications of that basic technology.
Oh, wait, those stories are interesting. Hey, some people may be interested in seeing how satellite technology has changed too. The satellites we have imaging the planet today are not that "same old shit" from the 60's and 70's. Sensors and their sensing capabilities have changed immensely over the span of 40 years.
This story is interesting in detailing how that monitoring technology can identify the sites launching the mortars and the sites being hit.
At least by the headline it seems so. I took a look this morning at two of them and you can clearly see some areas in the "pre" that had "bomb craters" just as the purported second "post" image. Also notice differences in resolution.
These images - just like anything the Russians or Ukranians give - should not be taken at face value.
Nobody believes you except for the fools and the gullible. US == liars. Obama == Hitler.
Hitler leads on countries invaded 24 to 4,
Hitler was also a far better public speaker; convinced millions of people that blonde haired people were superior - when he had brown hair.
Israel is targeing rocket launchers, Gaza is targeting civilians while hiding their rockets behind civilians.
You got a problems with killings, blame Gaza. A large number of those killed in Gaza are from bad launches of rockets, but I see you blame that on Israel. I guess Israel is supposed to kill their own citizens so Gaza doesn't have to risk killing themselves launching rockets.
Anti-semite troll is obvious.
Be a pedant all you want, it doesn't make a difference to the guy in Iraq if he gets hit with a nuke or mustard gas.
Oh look, the russian conspiracy theorist shills have mod points today.
Thanks Putin, you fucking asshat.
I used to like you. You used to be cool. But you just had to be a dick and try do a Hitler 2.0.
Yeah right, the infamous "mushroom cloud" comment was all about chemical weapons. Also I'm old enough to recall the attack on the Kurds, it happened in the 80's long before Clinton was elected. The Bush administration lied about nukes and lied about Saddam's connection to 911 because they wanted to "fix" the ME once and for all.
Sure most people wanted Saddam gone but most people could also see the end was not worth the means. The US should have backed down when it did not gain the support of the UN but they did the exact opposite. The US should have kept Iraq's public service intact but they disbanded them on the third day and the entire nation went on a looting rampage from which they still haven't recovered.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
"Gaza can send thousands of rockets targeting Iraeli citizens and they won't even say a word." -- I'm pretty sure the US is saying a word, and it is desire for a cease fire. Also, Hamas is dumb, but death count in the recent spate of attacks? Israelis: 1 died to a rocket, Palestinians: 1000 died in shelling. Looks like Israel is doing comparatively alright here. Why do you need the US doing more here? What is it you want them to do?
"Iran can make nuclear weapons and they won't even say a word." -- Clearly you are unaware of the current state of diplomacy on this issue. Last November an interim agreement was made, observers are checking to verify Iranian compliance in agreement for a lessening of economic sanctions. We'll see if a continuing agreement can be reached by next November. What would you have done differently? The fact that you claim that the US has not said a word makes me inclined to think you are not aware of reality enough to make a sensible suggestion, but you could surprise me.
"Russia can take over Crimea and they get bashed harshly with... a speech." -- The US can invade Iraq and Afghanistan and run military operations in Pakistan and get bashed mildly with... a speech. Iraq was a disaster perpetrated upon a bed of lies and incompetency. Would you consider it money well spent? Seriously? What is your proposed action on Russia and Crimea? You have complained about actions taken, without expressing what it is you actually want... and that's just not helpful at all. It sounds like you want more dick waving and war and are under the impression that it will help, but I could just be stereotyping you...
"ISIS can take over Iraq and kill thousands and they won't say a word." -- What do you want? Unending US military presence in Iraq? Who do you even want to be in charge of Iraq and why? What implications would your desires have?
Basically, it sounds like you want the US to prop up Israel, stop Iran by any means necessary, remove Russia from Crimea, and crush ISIS and prop up Iraq indefinitely. You want to do all of this heavy work and military mobilization (hint: that costs a ton of money [oh, and lives, especially if you count foreigners and care about that kinda thing]), yet simultaneously you complain about the government not cutting a dime of spending.
Your brain is broken.
> "WMD" is a shorthand for "nukes"
Just plain wrong. Remember Colin Powell's presentation at the UN? It was all about mobile facilities for brewing biological WMDs. He was wrong, but it's clear that "WMDs" doesn't simply mean "nukes", even in the Iraq context.
Less believable? See:
http://www.thestar.com.my/News...
http://www.malaysia-chronicle....
http://www.straitstimes.com/ne...
for a demonstration of Goebbels' and Stalin's idea that if a big lie is repeated often enough it becomes the truth.
In fact, Russia invented satellite!
No, wait, they did.
Since your post contains actual verifiable information, our tireless moderator zombies have found it necessary to de-score it.
Funny that they illustrate this report with the actual shelling of the city of Gorlovka by the Ukrainian army. Yeah, actual civilians being bombed by their US sponsored government to the complete indifference of the western media. I guess those reporters can't be bothered to point that out.
Yeah, the Ukrainian military should instead write a kind letter asking the separatists to go back to Russia.
I stole this Sig
Don't forget all the ones with an Su25 being involved in shooting it down (haha).
I love how all these conspiracy nuts paint the US govt as some scheming Machiavellian mastermind, when the reality is that they keep getting caught unprepared with their pants down whenever some unanticipated international development happens.
Ahhh but the nutjobs will claim "that it is all part of the deception!"
The summary says "Russian forces" which is generally assumed to mean official troops, but I think it's far more likely to be Russian rebels firing on Ukraine from Russia.
Putin has no need to involve official Russian troops when there are more than enough "volunteers" willing to carry out the battle. Russia gives them a few big guns and they keep them safe on the Russian side of the border so the Ukrainians can't fight back. The bonus is that by keeping the Ukrainians away from the border they can keep it open and continue the flow of troops and arms from Russia.
I stole this Sig
Iran can make nuclear weapons and they won't even say a word.
Iran dilutes nuclear material
July 21, 2014
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/latest-news/iran-dilutes-nuclear-material/story-fn3dxix6-1226995916083
IRAN has turned all of its enriched uranium closest to the level needed to make nuclear arms into more harmless forms, the United Nations' nuclear agency says.
THE move was expected. Tehran had committed to convert or dilute its 20-per cent enriched stockpile under an agreement with six powers last November that froze its atomic programs pending negotiations on a comprehensive deal. Those talks were extended on Saturday to November 24.
Still, the development was noteworthy in reflecting Iran's desire not to derail the diplomatic process with the six countries - the United States, Russia, China, Britain, France and Germany.
If you really cared about Iran and not about piling up perceived failure at Obama's feet, you sure as shit would have seen this headline from last week.
It wasn't a secret. The AP, AFP, Reuters, and pretty much everyone was talking about it.
/Naturally Fox News did their best to report only on the extension of talks.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
Not to mention if chemical weapons were a casus belli, just about every country in the world would be a legitimate target.
Exactly. Like marijuana and copyright infringement for foreign policy.
Stop-Prism.org: Opt Out of Surveillance
Funny that they illustrate this report with the actual shelling of the city of Gorlovka by the Ukrainian army. Yeah, actual civilians being bombed by their US sponsored government to the complete indifference of the western media. I guess those reporters can't be bothered to point that out.
Yeah, the Ukrainian military should instead write a kind letter asking the separatists to go back to Russia.
Wow, so you think it's alright to bomb civilians once they're been labeled 'separatists'. One can justify pretty much any atrocities with your thinking.
It's always amusing how the Putin apologists bend over to misinterpret sentences.
The civilians are not separatists, the separatists are Russians who illegally entered Ukraine, with weapons, and took control of several cities. The local component to this 'separatist movement' is largely comprised of local criminals looking to cash in.
The intention is quite obviously not to bomb civilians, but the armed Russians who are occupying the city. The Russians set up bases in residential areas and on top of apartment buildings precisely because they know the Ukrainians are reluctant to fire at their own citizens.
The civilian deaths that result from Ukrainian attempts to attack the separatists is tragic, but arguably less tragic than leaving the civilians of Donetsk and Luhansk to live under a fascist autocracy run by Russian cossasks and local criminals.
You might wonder that I used the word 'fascist' since the Russians are so fond of using it to describe the Ukrainians. I use it because in this case it is accurate, I can't think of a country today that could be better described as fascist than Putin's Russia. That you would defend such an enterprise then seek to blame the victims for the resulting human toll is disgusting beyond words.
I stole this Sig
OK. You've got a beef with Obama and the current Administration. I have some issues too. That said, pretend that, for some reason you became President, what YOU would do in each of the situations that you mention. We'll wait...
Speaking as a Ukrainian, you're completely mistaken. Russia has been agressive towards Ukraine for centuries. Besides many millitary invasions, an occupation that lasted generations, there was also the genocide planned in Moscow that in the 1930's killed 11 million Ukrainians. Russia has historically been hungriest for Ukrainian blood above all else, and it doesn't look like things will change any time soon.
Well, I would send in the Unicorn Ponies to subdue the Russians with their Mind Control Rays. Then it would be like My Little Pony over there.
If you think the war Russia is waging on Ukraine won't eventually affect the USA you are dangerously mistaken. This the zombie form of the USSR coming back to life and unless contained, will be just as dangerous, if not worse. They are already looking hungrily towards Alaska. Their propaganda machine is already working hard trying to convince their own people and the rest of the world that it should be given back, or taken by force. (Keep in mind, recent invasions of Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova, and Chechnya all started with stupid propaganda exactly like this.)
It's absolutely in USA's interest to stop Russia WAY before it gets close enough to do anything serious to USA. Here's some Russian propaganda aimed directly at the USA, enjoy looking up the nastier stuff on your own.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
1- Reports from these cities say the Ukrainian army is bohttp://news.slashdot.org/story/14/07/27/208226/satellite-images-show-russians-shelling-ukraine#mbing indiscriminately in various neighborhoods. These actions has been consistent have been going on for at least 2 months. They are not targeting the rebels, since for the most part, they cannot pinpoint their positions. So they blindly bomb whatever houses/infrastructures to inflict maximum destruction/casualties. They must have learned that from the Anglo-Saxons. Some of today's results: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...
And what's your explanation for why the Ukrainians would want to inflict civilian casualties?
>2- Your assertion about separatists being Russians who illegally entered Ukraine is a blatant lie. Most defenders are locals who took up arms to defend their families and land against a murderous and repressive government. Plenty of proof of that.
Bullshit. There was nothing murderous or repressive about the government, they had just thrown out a corrupt president and the current president is a Russian speaker who used to belong to the same party!
Precise estimates on the fighter composition are tricky but there is very significant Russian and non-Ukrainian component.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/...
http://www.theatlantic.com/int...
Even the DPR leaders have been whining all along about locals not doing enough to fight.
3- Your comment about Russia is really sad and says a lot about the level of propaganda in the western media. Had Putin not been so moderate, your sorry ass might have been vaporized by now. But you're too brainwashed to realize what you're doing.
Sure Putin is a moderate, and the passengers of MH17 were slightly inconvenienced.
I stole this Sig
Oh I'm sure Russia will affect America. But I what I asked was this:
"Is there a clear course of action in this conflict that will be best for America in the future?"
No, there isn't a clear course of action. It's not obvious which actions would make the situation better and which actions would make the situation worse.
This aggression will not stand, man.
You're jumping from Russia trying to annex Ukraine to Russia trying to invade Alaska. They're more likely to send the tanks rolling into Germany first, and they'll probably annex China long before then.
Russia vs Ukraine is like most of the wars the US has gotten into over the last 20 years - find some little country and push it around since it can't really do anything to hurt you back. Russia doesn't have the navy to threaten the US in a serious way in a conventional war, and the reverse is definitely not the case. There is little reason for Russia to get into a shooting war with the US, and certainly no reason for the US to get into a shooting war with Russia either.
I think the Europeans are making the bigger mistake here, but this is one big case of short-term thinking. Nobody wants to suffer the short-term loss to deal with Russia, and everybody is likely to take advantage of their neighbors if they try to do something about it. If the US cuts off all loans to Russia, the London banks will just step in to make a fortune in their place, etc.
I think the point wasn't doing things differently, it was that nothing was being done. Well, nothing besides the easily ignored, symbolic economic sanctions and showing up 30 minutes late for every speech.
Not doing nothing is doing things differently.
I stole this Sig
Well you see, the scheduling's all wrong. We have to wait another 10 to 15 years before we can start another major offensive to prop up our MIC. Until then we have to depend on our proxies to use up the ordinance we sell them.
I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
And Russia provided a video of the Buk launch (in IR) from Ukrainian territory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
Given that Ukraine routinely shoots into Russian territory (even killing several people on the Russian side), it's little wonder that Russia shoots back.
A decade ago I would have believed this as gospel, now I'm not sure. It's difficult to believe the US voice any more.
Like any other site, this site is about that what the editors choose. Not the people consuming the information. It is the case for any type of media... why would you believe it is any different with this one?
You are always free to write your thoughts to the editors or to the editor who accepted the submission. Ranting about it is probably the least helpful thing one can do.
Oh right - I nearly forgot the edit war they started on wikipedia, so that the article would match Russia's wild (there's no other word for it) claim that a SU-25 was at the same altitude as a 777 in cruise.
And an IFF on mode 3. And flying much higher than the military plane.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
Sheer primitive tribalism. The guys who have burned people alive in Odessa had a lot of fun doing it. And they were cheered at by several local politicians.
Well, shelling civilians and arming neo-faschist thugs surely counts for murderous. And as for repressive, they banned an oppositional party few days ago.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
Iran can make nuclear weapons and they won't even say a word.
Iran dilutes nuclear material
July 21, 2014
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/latest-news/iran-dilutes-nuclear-material/story-fn3dxix6-1226995916083
IRAN has turned all of its enriched uranium closest to the level needed to make nuclear arms into more harmless forms, the United Nations' nuclear agency says.
THE move was expected. Tehran had committed to convert or dilute its 20-per cent enriched stockpile under an agreement with six powers last November that froze its atomic programs pending negotiations on a comprehensive deal. Those talks were extended on Saturday to November 24.
Still, the development was noteworthy in reflecting Iran's desire not to derail the diplomatic process with the six countries - the United States, Russia, China, Britain, France and Germany.
If you really cared about Iran and not about piling up perceived failure at Obama's feet, you sure as shit would have seen this headline from last week.
It wasn't a secret. The AP, AFP, Reuters, and pretty much everyone was talking about it.
/Naturally Fox News did their best to report only on the extension of talks.
Shouldn't forget North Korea either, who we know has nuclear weapons and has actively threatened to use them against US targets.
blindly antisocialist = antisocial
And I cannot wait to learn who really shot down MH 17.
I usually don't take sides, but it must be the side who doesn't let anybody else approach and destroys the evidence?
Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Polar Scope Align for iOS
Well, when somebody invades a city, and you want to drive them out, how do you do it without shelling the city? The only way cities don't get shelled is if armies don't take refuge in them.
Sure, it is a lousy deal for the civilians, but it isn't like the Ukraine asked the Russians to invade.
Witness 1: "there was another aircraft, a military one, beside it. Everybody saw it"
Witness 2: "Yes, yes. It was flying under it, because it could be seen. It was proceeding underneath, below the civilian one."
Witness 3 - Sergey Godovanets, Commander of the Militia of the city of Snezhnoye: "They use these civilian aircraft to hide behind them"..."they would fly out from behind a civilian aircraft, bomb away, and then hide, once again, behind the civilian aircraft and fly away"
Some other witness: "the Ukrainian air force regularly used civilian aircraft flying over Novorossiya as human shields to protect its military aircraft"
So, just to be clear, from the Russian point of view... a Ukrainian Air Force jet was using as a shield flying beside underneath in front of behind a civilian aircraft. Everyone saw it [at 33,000 feet? Amazing!]. Ukrainian Air Force have been doing this for months [in fact pilots and passengers are so used to this they don't even report such events. Who would?]. Then the Ukrainian Air Force jet shot the civilian aircraft [probably just after mistaking it for Putins personal aircraft, after flying the entire length of Ukraine, hidden by Malaysia Air camouflage].
Have I miss-understood something?
Human Rights, Article 12: Freedom from Interference with Privacy, Family, Home and Correspondence
The ISIS situation is actually the USA's fault and they really ought to go do something about though. The USA removed the stabilizing force in Iraq (despite Saddam Hussein's faults, he did keep the peace in Iraq) and then left a weakened government when they withdrew their troops.
Nobody likes nation building. Going in an bombing and then pulling out is "easy." You don't have to deal with all the indigenous populations that hate each other, and so on. Building a stable nation is messy - if there are two tribes of indians that hate each other you have to either get rid of one, or change their culture so that they don't hate each other any longer. If the nation speaks 3 languages, you probably need to get them on one language, and that means picking which one wins.
All of that stuff is morally questionable, and nobody wants to do it. So, we basically leave fragmented nations which unsurprisingly devolve into civil wars until one side or another kills everybody else off and ends up with a single language/culture/etc which is stable, or they manage to draw up internal borders and turn into multiple countries.
If you're not willing to do nation building then you really need to think twice about going in to begin with. You can't win hearts and minds if the "citizens" you're trying to liberate all hate each other almost as much as they hate you.
Pro Russia Separatists armed by Russia...but then you already knew that...
More so than the Russian propaganda.....
http://www.globalresearch.ca/d...
It could still be a missile; witnesses weren't specific. And that it was the only instance of it diverted to that northerly flight plan is just a tad suspicious.
My Photoshop skills are easily up to whatever images either sides' propaganda arm produces. Give me eyewitnesses.
BTW, yes I can spot a Boeing at FL33, with a $10 pair of binocs I could tell a 737 from a 767.
You really don't know your history if you think that WWII happened because "the world didn't have the balls to stop German and Japanese aggression when it would have been easy". WWI was still fresh in the minds of the people, the great depression was in full swing, Germany was not aggressive, Japan was still (for the most part) keeping to its self.
The obvious counter is that Germany was aggressive (both with a vast military buildup and multiple invasions and forced annexations before the Second World War officially began) and Japan was not keeping to itself (such as their invasions of Korea and China and their well-telegraphed war with the US and the UK).
And a military push by France in 1936 to reverse the remilitarization of the Rhine, would have been pretty easy. But having said that, it would be easy to underestimate Nazi Germany in 1936. They had over the course of a few years rebuilt a world-class military from the stunted post-Versailles remnants. I believe the Second World War would have been easy to prevent in 1936 or 1937, but I also believe that it wasn't that clear what course to take.
Still when one looks at the bizarre things that France did, such as building a vast and expensive defensive network of fortresses (the Maginot line), but not actually defending against the invasion path taken in the previous war (and which Nazi Germany used again), it's painfully clear that they weren't making good decisions even given the uncertainty of the times.
And which party was this?
Anyone who is sincerely interested in understanding the current Ukraine situation, PLEASE READ THIS (published back in March):
http://www.counterpunch.org/20...
Also, please understand that the disputed Eastern part of Ukraine was part of Russia for most of its history. Indeed, in the 10th century, Kiev (the present-day capital of Ukraine) was the first capital of Rus, the forerunner of Russia.
in contrast, note that only a few centuries ago present-day Ukraine was part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. (See the top map at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P...). The Poles have historically been just as aggressive and territory-hungry as the Russians; possibly more so, as the Russians had many other directions in which to expand (notably the East). It's a serious mistake to think of Poles and Lithuanians as victims and underdogs just because that was their fate in the 20th century. The movie "Taras Bulba" (starring Tony Curtis and Yul Brynner) gives a somewhat Hollywoodized but substantially accurate impression of a time when the Polish nobility ruled and swaggered across the region, imposing their rule on Slavs and Cossacks. The movie was based on a largely factual story of the same name by Gogol.
I am amazed by the extent to which grossly deceptive and misleading accounts of the events in Ukraine have been accepted throughout the West. No one in this story has behaved in a saintly way, but the Russian speaking citizens of Ukraine who wish their areas to be taken back into Russia are surely within their rights. ("When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another...") For decades, Americans supported the right of Northern Irish republicans to become part of the Republic of Ireland; and in a couple of months, citizens of Scotland will be voting on the question of independence. Under Russian law, anyone born in the USSR who speaks Russian has the right to Russian citizenship. And surely if a region is predominantly inhabited by Russian citizens, they have the right to become part of Russia (again)? Why should Russians be condemned to citizenship of a failed state run by violent neo-Nazis just because of an administrative decision taken in Moscow (without their consent) back in the days of the USSR?
I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
The communist party of Ukraine. 13% of voters have voted for them in the last parliament election - the fourth largest party back then. Banning oppositional parties is something that even that crook Yanukovich did not dare.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
Has anyone else noticed that the avalanche of RT posters seems to have subsided? For a couple of months any mention of Crimea or the Ukraine was mobbed by dozens of scripted posts about "fascists in Kiev" and so on. Very much in the style of the 1980's information warfare efforts from the Soviets. But I'm getting the sense someone in Moscow has turned down the tap, and told the guys in the RT.com boiler rooms to hold off. Maybe Putin is giving up on this one?
I have to agree. As an example, when Hitler first invaded the Ukraine the people were so happy they cheered the Nazis for throwing out the Soviets. Of course subsequent events showed that optimism to be seriously misplaced but it demonstrates how much they hated the Soviets. (Although I used the word Soviets in this context for all intents and purposes they were the Russians)
The OFA trolls who constantly cut and paste foolishness about how all the Democrats were dead set against the evil Bushitler and Demonic Cheney come to mind...
The Russian take over of Georgia was done using the exact, same tactics... as are being used here.
Murphy was an optimist
Apparently the poster hasn't seen the monument in Kyiv to the millions of people who starved to death under the boot of the Russians...
Murphy was an optimist
You're jumping from Russia trying to annex Ukraine to Russia trying to invade Alaska. They're more likely to send the tanks rolling into Germany first, and they'll probably annex China long before then.
Wow. Just wow. That was the most stupid statement ever on slashdot. And that's saying something.
Russia annex China? I'm surprised you actually can remember to breathe.
Where did I say that Russia would annex China?
I only said that they'd do that before they invaded Alaska.
It is just a matter of time that Russia, Ukraine or any other of the ex-soviet states fucks it up utterly. And with a crackhead like Putin in the Kremlin it already seems to have begun.
And yes, there are talks about sanctions, but as this happens the Russian company who builds the BUK system has an offinc in Amsterdam meant to whitewash money and getting a free ride on taxes here in Holland. I still remember how a few months ago a bunch of shitheads were criticising the fact we Dutch were questioning the tax exemptions on international companies here in NL. While STarbucks and CO are only abusing us Dutch worker's pockets there are some other of our lovely "guests" that directly shoot us from the skies. So, thank you heer Rutte and all our lovely liberal and centre right governments for all this.
-- 29A the number of the Beast
Mid-east fighting, 2000 years and going strong.
There was no noteworthy hostility between Jews and Arabs until approximately one century ago. Prior to large-scale efforts to create a Jewish state by a coordinated Zionist movement, the Jews that remained throughout the Arab world were treated better than their fellow Jews in Europe. The idea that there is some 2000-year-old conflict between Arabs and Jews is not founded in reality.
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
Seriously, do you guys work directly for the SVR, or are you bribed by them, or are you just "useful idiots"?
---dragoness
Gaza can send thousands of rockets targeting Iraeli citizens and they won't even say a word.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
You think these are targeted?
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
Gaza is targeting civilians while hiding their rockets behind civilians.
Unless you're privy to some unreleased intelligence, Gaza does not have the capability to target civilians or anything else.
The rockets being fired from Gaza are crude by any standard. They don't have targeting capabilities. There are no guidance systems. There are no control surfaces.
If Israel apologists are so concerned about civilian casualties as a result of these unguided rockets, perhaps they can start exporting rocket guidance systems to Gaza. Until then, can you kindly shut the fuck up about "targeting civilians"? Thank you.
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
I'm no Putin apologist; I was granted political asylum by the USA some decades ago when I fled communist oppression with my family.
That being said, you're oversimplifying a sadly complex situation which I myself don't completely understand. Don't expect a few minutes of reading to clear things up, either. Some things to keep in mind:
- A large ethnically-Russian population has existed in Ukraine for many years, many decades. Most "Russians" in Ukraine are not Russian commandos that snuck across the border in the past year, but instead are normal people who been living happily in Ukraine for their entire lives.
- Most of these ethnically-Russian Ukrainians do identify closely with Russia and feel that their own interests would be best served by a Ukraine that seeks closer ties with Russia, not the EU.
- The local component to this 'seperatist movement' does indeed contain local criminals looking to cash in, but this should not excessively taint the legitimacy of the movement.
- Cossacks are not Russians. They're Cossacks. Don't slander them by associating them with the Putin regime.
That being said, fuck Putin and the crumbling Russia he rode in on.
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
Screw You.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M...
http://ronpaulinstitute.org/ar...
http://jonathanturley.org/2014...
Got Geometrodynamics? Awe, too hard to figure out? Too bad.
I've been a Slashdot reader and account holder since the days of the Halloween Papers, so I figure what I want out of this site counts for as much as what you want out of it.
You can ignore a story about which you don't care much more easily than I can read one that never gets posted.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Are you high?
The tactic the civilians're describing would only work if Malaysia Airlines agreed to fly right over the Ukrainian Air Force's target area. And if they did that, and the Ukrainians repaid the favor by destroying their plane, why the fuck wouldn't they be all over CNN with the betrayal?
Sensor data is really easy to fake.
If those in Gaza were actually targeting civilians, they death toll on Israel's side wouldn't be 32 soldiers dead out of 35 total dead.
If Israel was targeting rocket launchers, the death toll in Gaza wouldn't be 166 children out of 662 dead.
Being anti-Israel is not the same thing as being anti-Semitic.
Well, when somebody invades a city, and you want to drive them out, how do you do it without shelling the city?
Except that this is civil war and nobody invaded eastern Ukraine cities; the one at fight are usual city residents.
Western Ukraine armies have no way to tell apart what is a fighter home and what is not. Do you suggest they need to destroy the whole city and kill and kill everyone to fix the problem?
Then since Donetsk's people handed over the flight recorder black boxes, you must be speaking about Ukrainian government that confiscated recordings of conversations between Ukrainian air traffic control officers and the plane. And the recordings may shed light on the reason why Ukrainian air control traffic sent the plane over a civil war zone while that was not its original flight path
Well, they moved corpses because of putrefaction (it is summer there), and because dogs and foxes were eating them. That seems quite reasonable.
I'm no Putin apologist; I was granted political asylum by the USA some decades ago when I fled communist oppression with my family.
That being said, you're oversimplifying a sadly complex situation which I myself don't completely understand. Don't expect a few minutes of reading to clear things up, either. Some things to keep in mind:
- A large ethnically-Russian population has existed in Ukraine for many years, many decades. Most "Russians" in Ukraine are not Russian commandos that snuck across the border in the past year, but instead are normal people who been living happily in Ukraine for their entire lives.
I was referring to Russian citizens, not ethnic Russians. My understanding is the ethnic Russians, though not well disposed towards Kiev, generally want nothing to do with the separatists.
- Most of these ethnically-Russian Ukrainians do identify closely with Russia and feel that their own interests would be best served by a Ukraine that seeks closer ties with Russia, not the EU.
True, this is a question that can be settled through democratic means.
- The local component to this 'seperatist movement' does indeed contain local criminals looking to cash in, but this should not excessively taint the legitimacy of the movement.
I don't think the movement has any legitimacy. Even in Donetsk they could only ever rally a couple thousand out of a city of over a million. The only reason there's a separatist movement is because of the thousands of armed fighters who entered the country.
- Cossacks are not Russians. They're Cossacks. Don't slander them by associating them with the Putin regime.
I was referring to the Russian paramilitary organizations, though was maybe too broad since they're only a portion.
That being said, fuck Putin and the crumbling Russia he rode in on.
I heartily agree.
I stole this Sig
Except that this is civil war and nobody invaded eastern Ukraine cities; the one at fight are usual city residents.
Well, any nonuniform Russian special operations forces in Ukraine would be invaders, for sure. There have been pictures of heavy military equipment in cities as well - so this isn't a purely door-to-door operation. In just about every war in modern history significant troop concentrations in cities get bombed or attacked using artillery. So, this is just par for the course. If you see a bunch of soldiers deploy in the house across the street, it would be wise to find someplace else to live. Sure, you don't deserve to die for living in the wrong place, but you'll die all the same.
The only time armies spare cities from general bombardment is when they have such an overwhelming advantage in a war that they can afford to fight with a handicap. Ukraine does not seem to have such a decisive advantage - this isn't the UN vs Iraq/etc (not that the usual US/UK/France/Germany coalition is shy about dropping bombs in cities). This is more like Kosovo, or WWII - a battle between near-equals, and that generally means the whole country gets turned into rubble.
Yeah, Detroit is fucked. Now, are people in Detroit too dumb to see through classic propaganda? Your own government is responsible for the coup in Ukraine and is now trying to start a war with Russia. That's what should have been discussed here. Of course the people who shot down MH17 knew what they were aiming at.
People forget that their own criminal president is about to be impeached.
If you think a majority wants WW3, I guess you're right. What else do you think Obama, David Cameron and the media are up to?
Sheer primitive tribalism. The guys who have burned people alive in Odessa had a lot of fun doing it. And they were cheered at by several local politicians.
a) No one knows how the fire started, both sides were throwing molotov cocktails, and the majority of the crowd attempted to help evacuate the building.
b) Ally yourself with an enemy nation who has just invaded and annexed part of the country, take over buildings by force, then kill some peaceful protesters. You really expect to get a kind response?
Considering what happened further east where the separatists weren't kicked out I don't imagine many Odessans with the separatists were left there.
Well, shelling civilians and arming neo-faschist thugs surely counts for murderous. And as for repressive, they banned an oppositional party few days ago.
What's your alternate suggestion? They simply hand over half the country to actual murderous criminals and fascists?
I stole this Sig
You can see in numerous youtube videos that while some of the crowd helped the people out, others happily continued to throw incendiaries into the windows. Majority my arse.
Imagine that Yanukovich had done the same to the maidan thugs, what the current national guard does to civilists in Donetsk. For all his faults he was a saint in comparison.
Actual murderous criminals and fascists already own the majority of the country. What difference would it make?
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
Honestly, if the photo's were not from the US intelligence I'd probably believe it. But since they are I reserve doubt.
Jeruvy
You can see in numerous youtube videos that while some of the crowd helped the people out, others happily continued to throw incendiaries into the windows. Majority my arse.
Again, if you fight for an enemy nation in a war expect people are going to be angry at you.
Imagine that Yanukovich had done the same to the maidan thugs, what the current national guard does to civilists in Donetsk. For all his faults he was a saint in comparison.
Yanokovych employed snipers against massive peaceful protests, they occupied buildings but they also had hundreds of thousands of people. The pro-Russians have never had a tenth as many.
And you can't compare Yanoyovych's actions to a defence from an actual invasion.
Actual murderous criminals and fascists already own the majority of the country. What difference would it make?
a) There's nothing criminal or fascist about the current rulers.
b) You dodged the question. Tell me what they should have done in response to an invasion that you wouldn't consider "criminal" or "fascist".
I stole this Sig
Also, East Ukraine is full of ethnic Russians, shocking, I know.
I wasn't talking about ethnicity.
Bullshit, There was all of no hesitation on the part of Kyiv, regarding beginning an offensive in Donetsk and Luhansk. There was no hesitation involved in the shelling of civilian areas.
Except the months it took to actually do it.
Hyperbole, and it's their choice that the people of Donetsk and Luhansk made themselves. Don't you find it even slightly hypocritical that you can cry 'fascist' on one hand, but on the other, completely suppress the idea that a referendum took place?
I just held another referendum in my livingroom and the people of Donetsk and Luhansk just voted 93.425% that you're full of BS.
The think I find hilarious is that there's manufactured "proof" of Russian artillery fire, and satellite images showing troop buildups that don't exist, but no satellite imagery showing Russia moving BUK systems into Donetsk (because let's face it, neither Russia nor the separatists have anything to gain by downing passenger liners), it makes no sense for Kyiv to have moved SAM systems into Donetsk as the separatists have no air support. How'd the BUK system get there? Are we pretending that Kyiv has nothing to gain from making it look like Russia is downing airliners, they're desperate.
Yeah, the idea of Russian artillery fire is ridiculous.
And you're ignoring the obvious that the separatists have been downing planes for weeks.
I stole this Sig
There was no fight for an enemy nation in Odessa. There were anti-Maidan protesters.
Except that it was not even proven that it was Yanukovich who used the snipers. And he wasn't indiscriminately shelling civilians in western Ukraine either. I have a coworker from Ukraine, his extended family in Donetsk (a young woman with two children) was killed by Ukrainian artillery.
Like I said, Yanukovich was a bloody crook, a common criminal who came to power, but compared to the current Ukrainian government he was almost a saint.
What invasion are you talking about? There is a civil war going on. Irregulars on one side, quickly legalized former irregulars on the other side. Ukraine would never stand a chance against an actual invasion from Russia. Compare that to the utterly professional and practically bloodless annexion of Crimea. And this is why Ukrainian army doesn't even try to do anything about that, they know they don't stand a chance. Shelling cities, on the other hand, is easy. Especially these in Eastern Ukraine - Galicians don't consider Eastern Ukrainians to be real Ukrainians, even though they themselves were ousted from Poland when ethnic Poles were thrown out of Western Ukraine after WW2. They don't even speak the same language - a mix of Ukrainian and Polish by the Galicians, Surzhik by Eastern Ukrainian.
Svoboda was recognized as a neo-nazi party by basically every European country. And even though this party was in minority in the last elections, they suddenly have received a lot of interesting positions after Maidan because their armed thugs helped the coup. And what followed were banning oppositional parties, censorship of media and other nice things that typically follow after a fascist coup.
An invasion has to happen first. Then one regular army can fight another regular army.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
The majority I mentioned are those who want to see the US reduce their involvement in foreign conflicts that have nothing to do with US core interests. The mayhem engulfing the Middle East and Eastern Europe is spinning out of control in part because all the warring parties know without a doubt that the US is not going to intervene militarily in these conflicts in any meaningful way. This state of affairs could actually enhance US security in the short term because as long as no one strikes the US directly like blowing up skyscrapers or bombing naval bases the US government will not have the support of it's citizens to get involved in any military conflict. We have already seen this in regards to Syria. Unfortunately sooner or later some one is going to see less US involvement and think that somehow translates to a decrease in US military capabilities and pull another 9/11 or "Pearl Harbor". After that happens they should have enough time to ponder the depths of their misjudgment before the first missile or spec ops team comes through their bedroom window.
There was no fight for an enemy nation in Odessa. There were anti-Maidan protesters.
Who wanted to secede and join Russia.
Except that it was not even proven that it was Yanukovich who used the snipers. And he wasn't indiscriminately shelling civilians in western Ukraine either. I have a coworker from Ukraine, his extended family in Donetsk (a young woman with two children) was killed by Ukrainian artillery.
That's tragic but blame the people who started the war.
What invasion are you talking about? There is a civil war going on. Irregulars on one side, quickly legalized former irregulars on the other side. Ukraine would never stand a chance against an actual invasion from Russia. Compare that to the utterly professional and practically bloodless annexion of Crimea. And this is why Ukrainian army doesn't even try to do anything about that, they know they don't stand a chance. Shelling cities, on the other hand, is easy. Especially these in Eastern Ukraine - Galicians don't consider Eastern Ukrainians to be real Ukrainians, even though they themselves were ousted from Poland when ethnic Poles were thrown out of Western Ukraine after WW2. They don't even speak the same language - a mix of Ukrainian and Polish by the Galicians, Surzhik by Eastern Ukrainian.
Russia is promoting, recruiting, and supplying the rebels. Russian soldiers are shelling across the border. It's not official Russian troops in Ukraine but it's sure as hell a Russian invasion.
Svoboda was recognized as a neo-nazi party by basically every European country. And even though this party was in minority in the last elections, they suddenly have received a lot of interesting positions after Maidan because their armed thugs helped the coup. And what followed were banning oppositional parties, censorship of media and other nice things that typically follow after a fascist coup.
Everything except the fascism of course.
An invasion has to happen first. Then one regular army can fight another regular army.
Did you miss Crimea? The floods of Russians streaming across the border being equipped by the Russian government.
And you're still dodging the question. Tens of thousands of foreign fighters stream across your border, occupy your cities, and claim them as an independent state.
What do you do?
I stole this Sig
I didn't say Jews and Arabs have been fighting for 2000 years, I said the region has been consistantly in conflict for 2000 years.
"Action without philosophy is a lethal weapon; philosophy without action is worthless."
Except for this, but you're right, I did misunderstand your comment. My bad.
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
Traitorous sons of bitches deserve to be banned and put in prison for the treason they did and keep doing.
They are not real communists, wake the fuck up. they are the Russian-paid opportunists.
Yeah, right. Never heard that one before.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap