Slashdot Mirror
Microsoft On US Immigration: It's Our Way Or the Canadian Highway
theodp writes Even as it cuts about 14% of its workforce, Microsoft is complaining that the company might be denied some of the "roughly" 1,000 H-1B visas for foreign workers it intends to seek, and made it clear that the company could shift some work to Canada or overseas if it can't get talent on its terms. "If I need to move 400 people to Canada or Northern Ireland or Hyderabad or Shanghai, we can do that," said William Kamela, a senior federal policy lead at Microsoft, who later explained that about 60% of Microsoft's workforce is in the U.S., yet it makes 68% of its profits overseas (where it also stashes its cash out of IRS reach). Kamela made the statements on a panel at a two-day conference on high-skilled immigration policy, where he sat next to Felicia Escobar, special assistant to President Barack Obama on immigration. The day before the conference, Mark Zuckerberg's FWD.us PAC — which counts Bill Gates as a Founder and Steve Ballmer and Microsoft General Counsel Brad Smith as Major Contributors — posted its "MythBusters" video on H-1B visas.
Let them move jobs overseas. In retaliation, we the people should demand that the government ditch all Microsoft products and go open source!
Nothing new there.
Only the US charges income tax on profits from foreign subsidiaries which have already been taxed abroad. Besides being unfair, such a disincentive to bring the money into the US obviously discourages the spending and employing here that could be done with it.
The only reason politicians pretend to listen to arguments like Microsoft is making is the money passing under the table. The only reason Microsoft needs to argue this point at all is to present the pretense that politicians are uninformed, as opposed to corrupt.
If video games influenced behavior the Pac Man generation would be eating pills and running away from their problems.
Corporations want infrastructure, rule of the law, and educated workforce that comes with doing business in US while paying third-world wages and hiding income in tax shelters. You can't have it both ways.
I also highly doubt that Canada, for example, going to look any more favorable on work visas. If they move to Canada, they will have to hire Canadians (or people eligible for NAFTA visas). That won't be 25K/year PhDs from India.
Let them go and if they don't pay, revoke patents/copyrights to get some of the money back by putting things in the public domain and encouraging others to build something new.
so please let us hire more overseas. Please?
Pretty Please?
Viable Slashdot alternatives: https://pipedot.org/ and http://soylentnews.org/
I don't care.
And you still owe WA state kids more money than Bill Gates has!
Please go and leave us alone. It would be good to get rid of a criminal organization.
... Then MS software won't be designed by Americans... and American designers won't work for Microsoft.
Those American programmers will do something else. We don't need these mega corps especially in programming. If MS wants to piss off and go to India then they can be an Indian company. We'll see just how long MS remains relevant in the US when they make that move.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
It has nothing to do with training or intelligence and everything to do with money spent on wages.
Economic blackmail? From Microsoft?. No way!
and blowing tax payers money on corporate bailout and welfare programs has nothing to do with it?
Government and society shouldn't exist purely for the benefit of Business but so business benefits society but let me guess in the US that is socialism and a dirty word.
Let them move jobs overseas. In retaliation, we the people should demand that the government ditch all Microsoft products and go open source!
Hmmm. I'm a free software proponent, so I think you should move in that direction anyway, but I do have to question your reasoning... By dropping Microsoft products you would put market pressures on them to further lower costs, driving even more jobs offshore. That doesn't seriously put a damper on Microsoft, but it does accelerate the loss of US jobs. Now, if you're committed to losing those jobs ANYWAY, what do you care whether they go to H1B visa workers? At least they would live and spend in the local economy rather than siphoning jobs our of the U.S.
Or is the whole "Mythbusting" video filled with opinions and NOT facts?
All these tech companies simply need to open a few satellite offices. Inherently some people don't want to be in San Fransisco, Redmond, etc. if you can't find the talent you need perhaps you aren't in the right area?
who later explained that about 60% of Microsoft's workforce is in the U.S., yet it makes 68% of its profits overseas
Which is pretty much irrelevant when it comes to software. There is no need at all in software to match development costs to geographic locations. It's one of the beautiful things about being in that industry. That's why you can have a development team in India for a product that isn't even sold there and it still makes sense. It's not a tangible good you export.
Now if they cannot get the right talent for the right price domestically then sure they might have to look elsewhere but frankly I doubt that is really the core problem for Microsoft. If they are having trouble getting good talent I think it has a lot more to do with the fact that people are well aware they have a pretty toxic corporate culture where everyone has to have their knives out at all times and so much of the best talent decides to work elsewhere. Microsoft is just not an attractive place to work compared with Apple or Google or some of the other top IT firms.
It's also a little disingenuous to claim you need cheaper talent when you have net profit margins well above 20%. Microsoft's problems are not rooted in their cost structure but in their revenue streams. Their problems are that their key revenue streams (Windows and Office) are tied to tightly to the PC market and they haven't been able to translate them very well to the mobile market. They spent so many years trying to maximize their monopoly on the PC they they found it difficult to acknowledge that mobile devices have different requirements and to relax their grip so that they could grow. Microsoft saw the opportunity in mobile 10-15 years ago but kept trying to cram a PC into a mobile device with predictably bad results.
MS, like Apple and Google, simply purchase the laws they need to operate and buy the courts they need to enforce them. Everyone knows that.
Corporations want infrastructure, rule of the law, and educated workforce that comes with doing business in US while paying third-world wages and hiding income in tax shelters. You can't have it both ways.
So far they very clearly have been able to have it both ways. Sad but true.
Now let's be fair that Microsoft in general is not paying "third world wages". You only have to look at their financial statements to prove that. They generally pay their employees fairly well. That said, I think they are being more than a little disingenuous in claiming they need workers from overseas when they have net profit margins well in excess of 20%. Microsoft's problems aren't with their costs but with their revenue streams and no amount of cheap overseas talent is going to solve that problem.
[William Kamela] later explained that about 60% of Microsoft's workforce is in the U.S., yet it makes 68% of its profits overseas
Those figures don't compare well, at least not to justify moving Microsoft out of US. The US is one country versus about 200 others; the latters' population is more than 200 times that of the US.
The only conclusion I can make from that figures is that it is very likely that the US is the single country Microsoft makes more profit from.
Linux is for people who don't mind RTFM.
Having been a Canadian, donchanoe.
Trivia: How many times is Carefree Highway said?
That's the problem with liberals like Gates. They are very good at telling others how to be responsible citizens but consider themselves exempt from that
And you think "conservatives" don't do exactly the same thing? Bit of a double standard you have there. One standard will work just fine.
This article is spot on. Can a line be draw on H1Bs?
Disclaimer: I own part of a company in South America and worked for clients all around the world, outsourcing work (yes, I steal your jobs and I don't even need a H1B).
H1Bs are used for cheap labor, but also are vital for bringing more experienced seniorship into American companies (which there really is a lack of, at the pace the industry is growing). I sympathize with the low end of the scale, (It is terrible that a foreigner steals your job), but the high end is being too greedy. If there isn't enough seniorship to supply positions in the industry, don't be happy that your annual income will be doubled. Think instead that you are putting a stop to the industry and instead allow other seniors to be brought from overseas.
If not.. well, American companies will continue turning to outsourcing and help me make a living. Thank you guys!
the H-1B video is BS: The jobs created by letting those guys in is mostly support economy as in stores/home care/restaurants the foreign workers spend the money. In essence they want the locally trained STEM guys to get those jobs instead. They have never demonstrated that there is such a need for locally trained STEM guys because if they do they'll put money into it to encourage people to take the training and jobs. I wonder why those company never seem to need locally trained STEM people. Is it because schools in some places are switching to creationism so the whole country's education is put into question?
that just laid off a bunch of engineers right?
These capitalist thugskeep hiring foreign workers for one reason - drive down wages and reduce their own costs. It's sick. I'm in the fortunate position of being one of three people in my company who decides on future tech. MS is already on the short list because we believe software should be free in cost as well as freedom. To this end, I will be recommending we go ahead with our Debian and CentOS plans. I refuse to support through license costs, a company that will not hire American-born citizens first. I really do hate the vision of techno-libertarian utopian capitalism these companies purvey. They are ruining more and more lives, more privacy year after year. What's next?
If we had any legitimacy in the Government, I would expect the Government to be asking why Microsoft just terminated 18,000 employees (including no-competes preventing their hire at MS or anywhere else) and is now requesting 1,000 more foreign workers.
You can ask the question but the answer is simple. (whether the answer is actually honest or not is a different issue) What Microsoft would say is that those 18,000 workers didn't have the skill sets needed by the company going forward. If you fire an accountant you cannot replace him with an engineer. Not all people and jobs are interchangeable. I personally have had to fire people and hire different people precisely for this reasons. Even if they are lying through their teeth, this answer provides nearly impenetrable plausible deniability.
So you are saying that companies are moving to countries like Canada, the UK, and Ireland because those other countries are "more socialist" than the US? Are you f*cking kidding?
The US has higher corporate taxes and more draconian laws and regulations than many of those other countries. That is exactly why corporations are moving there.
Why not kill Google, Apple, HP and all other tech companies because you know they also have a hand in the H-1B cookie jar too and are probably doing the same thing as MS for the same reasons.
It is all about keeping wages down: Microsoft cuts 2,100 jobs in its latest round of layoffs (http://www.engadget.com/2014/09/18/microsoft-layoffs-round-2/) Intel to cut over 5,000 jobs (http://money.cnn.com/2014/01/17/technology/intel-jobs/) Cisco plans 6,000 layoffs in restructuring plan (http://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2014/08/13/cisco-plans-6-000-layoffs-in-restructuring-plan.html?page=all) https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
Because that wouldn't have any wider consequences at all...
Like perhaps a total flight from the US of almost every other significant business (on the grounds that "we might be next"), a total economic collapse and a catastrophic reduction in living standards.
Certain parts of South America are performing this particular experiment for our education at the moment. Watch how that pans out before wishing to see it replicated in your own country.
Most large tech businesses are following this strategy.They are just responding to our illogical tax and immigration policies. The US can compete, or try to be a self-sufficient island. Like it or not: Workers compete for jobs. Businesses compete for customers. Governments compete for businesses. All three compete for capital.
COE
Come on Microsoft, stop the horseshit and just hire workers from within the US. You fucksticks have had it your way too long.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...
Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
In 2009, IBM's US workforce was 105,000 out of 399,409 worldwide. (source: IBM stops disclosing U.S. headcount data, Patrick Thibodeau, Computerworld, Mar 12, 2010 6:00 AM PT)
IBM stopped releasing its US headcount in 2010, but I think it's safe to assume the US:World ratio is not much more than the 1:4 it was in 2009.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Yes, because if there's one thing you can say about the US, it's that it doesn't do enough for businesses....
I am a fan of smaller government, but we have a far more dire need for that to happen on the side of greater personal liberties, with many of the laws we have being problematic because we are so beholden to corporations.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
The VISA-lottery policy is a joke in the USA.
I have professional acquintances who were required for specific, high expertise jobs in the USA but got denied because their number did not come out of the hat. Instead, they went to Canada to work for the same company for the same position because their VISA policy is not a complete crapshoot and is actually somewhat predictable.
I don't think we should do that. We should just start moving away from free trade arrangements. Go back to having tariffs likely through a VAT with subsidies for domestic job creation. That way Microsoft can contribute to the economy by providing jobs or they can can contribute by (indirectly) paying tariffs to import their work from overseas.
I'm fine with H1B sponsorship, so long as a company can show they put an equal about of time, money and resources into college hire and training programs. When I first started programming it was very common for me to see programming interns and college hires. I consult with many mid and large companies, and I haven't seen a programming intern in 7 years. I've seen two college hires in that time as well. At some point in the 2000s some bone headed bean counter figured they could pay an H1B about the same as a college hire. If that's the case, hire the "experienced" resource. The problem is that created a devastating hole in Junior level programmers for almost a decade. Now companies are finally starting to hire college folks again they want to increase the H1B levels again, and repeat the cycle over again.
It's not on display in their current business. Windows 8.1, Office, xbox, windows phone, where? Also, let's not forget that they are busy laying off many/most of the former Nokia engineers in Finland that actually had to design, build, and compete in a competitive world market and replacing them with...who?
That being said it kinda dodges the question of why they need more HB1s after laying off a ton of people whom presumably had the necessary qualifications.
You cannot presume that. While it's certainly possible that some of them did have the necessary qualifications, it is also quite possible (likely even) that most did not. If you fire an engineer you cannot replace them with an accountant or even necessarily a different engineer with a different skill set. Even if they did have the qualifications that does not mean they were available and willing to work in the jobs that Microsoft had available. To make up an example, if they fire some guy in Finland from Nokia because they want the development to take place in the US, it's quite likely the guy might not want to move to the US to take the job that is available. Maybe he has family and cannot easily relocate.
The person has to have the right qualifications, be available to do the work, be willing to locate themselves to where the work is and cost the right amount.
I believe that Micropoop has had relationships with the US government and that foreign relocation could expose sensitive information to risk. Therefore I feel that a court could block any relocation activities by Microsoft. Or we could simply revoke Microsoft's business permits and put them completely out of business.
Come on Microsoft, stop the horseshit and just hire workers from within the US. You fucksticks have had it your way too long.
Come on in and interview if you think you've got what it takes.
(PROTIP: if you're here screwing around on /. all day, you probably don't.)
There's a classic quip about that. "A liberal is someone who will give you the shirt off of someone else's back."
That would mean the conservative equivalent is "A conservative is someone who will take your shirt and tell you to get a job so you can buy another one".
You're talking out of the side of your mouth. By all means shift your workforce. Then let's have the IRS do an audit of your accounting and hiring practices and Federal government can deny you government contracts.
Canada would welcome the jobs. One could also argue that at least moving the jobs to Canada would have a larger net positive impact on the US economy anyway due to our trade relations. Not to mention if you are a unemployed US tech worker, a move to Canada for work isn't that big a deal either.
They want cheap labor.. No different than American farmers who hire immigrants to tend fields, etc.
Plantation thinking if you ask me.
If you laid off 10 workers and immediately hired 10 other workers matching what you need, I'd at least cut you some slack. Anyone working for you and seeing this would probably start looking for a new job and your productivity would drop. I'd actually be okay since you would be harming yourself in the long run.
A swap is not what this is, so the "I needed 10 mobile hardware guys so let 10 HTML5 guys go, I could not afford both" type issues. In essence, Microsoft is claiming that in the 1/2 year process of recruiting the "right" candidates they could not have retrained just 5.5% of the people they just fired to get what they needed in the same amount of time.
If MS had given those 18,000 people a choice to learn what was needed, even on their own time, 40-50% of the people they were going to can would have went and learned what was needed. No need then to spend 6 more months acclimating people to a new company, new policies, new locations, new systems.
So bullshit, it's all about saving longer term cash on cheaper H1Bs and has nothing to do with having "the right staff for the job".
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
This ought to be an outrage and insult to American citizens who are being kicked out on the street by having their jobs stolen from them so that Bill Gates can add to his billions dollar fortune. Studies have shown that there is a surplus of American workers, which means we have a lot of people in this country who cannot find work becuase the work is being stolen by foreign immigrants, illegal aliens, H1B visa holders, and so on. The H1B visa program is a scam designed to enrich the 1%. That Obama is involved with this shows what Obama really is, a traitor who hates the United States, and who does everything he can to undermine our citizens. It is time to completely abolish the H1B program, and stop all immigration. This will as well create the press and necessity we need to fix our own countries problems, such as improving our education system, and promoting family values, such as marriage, so that we do raise healthy (mentally and otherwise) workforce. You cannot have a country without borders. Ultimately I fear what drives companies such as Microsoft is that they are globalists that want to eventually dissolve the United States and as well destroy it as a unique entity.
Simple!
1. Fanbois.
2. Slashdot parties like it's 1995, and will never forgive Microsoft for the crime of Linux being a complete piece of shit on the desktop.
Look at the hypocrisy in this thread. Everybody is outraged that MS is moving jobs outside the country, while making their profits there! So you need the rest of the world to pay you but they shouldn't get anything back? And you guys go preaching the world about how to live! Fucking hypocrites!
I'm much more funny, interesting and insightful than the moderators think
And the money you spent on a shitty OS pays foreign workers that replaced you, and the rest is hidden in overseas bank accounts. Sounds just like a drug cartel.
If you had read the article you would have noticed something obvious and glaring. Even if MS paid as much as this article claimed it does not include rebates and reductions which often show up years later.
During the third quarter of fiscal year 2011, we reached a settlement of a portion of an I.R.S. audit of tax years 2004 to 2006, which reduced our income tax expense by $461 million.
Showing me a selective summary document with no details gives me no confidence that it's factual. Showing that later they can receive 1/2 billion on a single issue demonstrates that money can be shuffled around to present an alternative reality (I.E. Propaganda).
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
Nonsense. What would the mechanism of total economic collapse? The assets are in dollars. What would happen is companies would charter a USA company doing business according to USA law and foreign companies chartered under foreign law that owned them. They would pay duty on imports to the USA company at worst. Or they would just pay more taxes and pass the costs on. That's it. No catastrophe.
The situation isn't at all similar to South American governments which aren't doing business in dollars and don't have international influence.
If this is the best that Zuckerberg and pals can do to sell H1b visas ... well then.
It's worth watching. Content free, and attribution free. Nice!
If it lowers house prices in Seattle I'm all for it.
MS is a dying relic anyway, getting cash on vendor lock-in principles. If they were to become the difficult path, someone would finally step forward and actually build an office suite worth the masses attention, and MS would easily fade into the nether.
It's nice to think, per the Zuckerberg cheerleading video, that I may be creating 2.6 local jobs (but I suspect I'm just creating 0.0001 extremely highly paid jobs). If microsoft wants to create high-end overseas I say encourage it. Indians can benefit from highly skilled jobs too, and in the end, we will all benefit if the world as a whole drags itself into a more middle class existence. To my mind it only breaks down when people earn so much money that they stop spending it.
Nullius in verba
The story is that we need highly skilled workers. If an H1B worker is better than me he should make atleast as much money as me. Every h1b I ever worked with has made much less. When I had 4 years experience I earned 10k more than a guy with 10+(and he was better than me). Companies are frequently NOT sponsoring for greencards and the h1bs get deported when their indentured servitude limit is up (google it, lots of forums with h1bs going, how do i get a greencard ). Lets face it if companies WERE getting greencards and these jobs were GOOD jobs, they would be GREENCARD dependent by now just on demographics.
if these guys are good, we should want them to stay. Change the h1b program to h1-greencard can quit if you don't pay me immigration plan then see if its worth it. if this still gets them to go to Canada... see you.
Look at this way... if you were a highly skilled person on a 'indentured servant' visa in canada wouldn't you prefer to hop over to the US and work here? For companies that stay, I'd bet its cheaper to move someone from Canada to US then from India to the US. So let these guys go to canada and bring in indentured servants there. The best will come here and go 'sue me in Canada for quitting, I'm not going back'.
its fair competition if its at the same wage.
They discriminate against both Indians and Americans. Its illegal to pay someone less money based on race. Its illegal to discriminate against an American because you can hire an H1B at lower wages because they have no other options.
Its literally illegal both ways. H1Bs cant file this lawsuit cause they will get deported. There needs to be some ambulance chasers around who can see the $ signs in lawsuits like this taken on h1bs behalf. Its in all American IT professions best interest to end the blatant racism against H1B holders.
The bottom line is if they can get the same money as we can they will. They are only willing to take less cause they have no options. Thats illegal. Its in our interest to raise their wages. Removes the competitive advantage.
Its in our interest to change how we argue aganst h1bs. It really is racist against BOTH Americans and Indians. Its in our interest for them to get more money.
Don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out.
Microsoft has been successful because of their American engineering talent.
If they want to go, they should go. G'bye!
there are 3 kinds of people:
* those who can count
* those who can't
Education in Canada is subsidized, but employment often pays more in the US.
captcha: savoured is supposed to have a u
Currency has nothing to do with it.
Or rather, a Government which showed it was happy to nationalise a private company's assets on such flimsy pretences as you put forward would forfeit its nation's ability to do any kind of business on the world stage. Nobody would care about doing business in the US when it became clear that the moment the US Government didn't like them, it would nationalise their assets.
So the US dollar would quickly reach (and then fall below) parity with the Mexican Peso.
It will, of course, never happen. Thank god.
Undercover of helping immigrant agricultural workers who have long needed a break in America, the American technology sector - lead by Facebook's Mark Zuckerberg - has seen fit to heavily lobby Congress to increase H1-B and other worker visa permits, vastly increasing H1-B visas at a time when very good research shows that there is no shortage of tech workers in America. Zuckerberg has so far succeeded, in the Senate. What is motivating the claim for more H1-B visas?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...
previously
One of the most respected technology pundits in Silicon Valley has this to say about the H1-B worker problem and Two H1-B's walk into a Bar: More on the H1-B visa problem
One of many examples of what goes on behind closed doors: an immigration attorney and his consultants teaching corporations how to manipulate foreign-worker immigration law to replace qualified American workers.
H1-B's are only the tip of the iceberg; there are more than 20 categories of foreign worker visas.
Professor Norman Matloff's extremely well documented studies on the H1-B and foreign worker visa problem. Matloff claims that Hi-B abuse has cost Americans $10Trillion dollars, since 1975. Inc. Magazine weights in Professor Matloff's Webpage
Mother Jones weighs in:How H1-B visa abuse is hurting American tech workers
Marc Zuckerberg and other wealthy tech scions - including large immigration law firms and corporation who profit from importing H1-B's continue to perpetuate this trend
How H1-B malpractice hurts the American economy
Most of the new crop of H1-Bs is coming from one of the most corrupt university systems in the world.
Indian government officials are not happy that the universities that they collude with might have some limitations placed on the abuses that have enabled them to "sell" their product to the American IT sector.
How the new immigration bill could ignite a trade war with India
How to underpay an H1-B worker
Yes! Why not kill off all of the major companies in one of the shrinking number of industries in which the US remains a world leader?
That will help massively.
And 20 years later, the Indians will be complaining about cheap illegal immigrants from the US taking all of the menial jobs in their country.
I'll leave aside the fact that most of these "charities" are tax-avoidance scams, and would probably do the world a favor by not existing.
Bill Gates gives about 40 times as much money to charities as do the Koch brothers, who together have about the same amount of money as Gates. The Koch brothers, in turn, are about 25X as generous as all the Walmart heirs combined- 85% of whose donations come from Christy and 15% from Alice. Jim and Rob also each have their $35 billion and together they donate approx. $30,000 to charity each year- i.e. 4 ppm of their total income. If I make six figures and I toss a dollar at a homeless person, I've just donated 10 ppm.
In comparison, the LDS church for example receives approx. ten billion dollars in "donations" (i.e. tithes) per year- ostensibly for charitable purposes- but spends only fifty million for charity, an overhead of approx. 99.5%. The Gates Foundation has an "overhead" of 90% (meaning 90% of his wealth is stuffed in his mattress). Charities would benefit 20X more if Mormons sent their tithe payments directly to scum-of-the-earth Bill Gates!!!!
I agree, that was a bad video hitting all the corporate dogmas. It makes an unwarranted assumption behind the scenes that only H1-B workers have computer or technological skills. And that's the lie being told, that no domestic worker with the skills can be found, despite these jobs often needing only basic IT drone skills.
As for Microsoft, it should be made to prove under penalty of perjury that for any H1-B worker they want to get that they did not lay off a worker that had those skills.
they claim they don't have any plans to ramp up skilled immigrants and in fact have CUT their Temporary Foreign Workers Programme.
I think M$FT is just trying more of the FUD they always use.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
Now that everybody knows the H1B thing is a total scam, MS is making childish threats.
So their argument is that they want to bring in foreign workers and if we don't let them they will send the foreigners to Canada? Either way it is no more jobs for Americans. Have they gone soft in the head, or do they figure the money they gave to the politicians allow them to come up with any old stupid excuse and still get what they want?
-- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
They wouldn't be nationalized on a flimsy pretext they would regulated and have time to adapt. The USA isn't going to totally change its attitude towards business just because it becomes slightly less pro-corporate. There is a difference between pro-regulation and pro-theft.
Well if the dollar were to at parity with the Mexican peso USA exports would be massive and our market would be effectively closed. All these regulations people are advocating wouldn't be necessary with a weak dollar economy.
The difference I think is that Microsoft has the gall to time this badly, just after massive layoffs, plus the gall to defend this publicly instead of quietly bribe the senators behind closed doors.
You americans should stop complaining about a small foreign workforce coming over to take your jobs; at least they need a visa and are deported when it expires. Here in europe (specifically the UK) we have free migration for all european citizens resulting in cheap labour flooding in from the poorer nations. They are willing to work inhuman hours in inhuman conditions making them far more desirable than someone who expects a fair wage and reasonable hours.
What's more is the attractive females are even more likely to be kept due to their looks and the male dominated managerial positions. I myself have seen multiple instances of people with far greater job experience and far better english language skills be overlooked for advancement or be kicked to the curb in favour of a pretty young polish girl.
Count yourselves lucky america that you aren't as stupid as we are to open the floodgates and let the cheap labour come rolling in like a plague.
Back in the first half of the 20th Century, Argentina was tipped to become one of the wealthiest countries in the world.
Then the people who think like you do got into power...
The tech companies do have trouble finding the people they need here, but the problem is largely one that business created for itself. They outsourced all the entry level tech work in (Helpdesk, Call Center, Software, QA, etc...) so the pipeline of new engineers was cut off and they failed to develop the talent that is available. This combined with the failure of the education system to provide real world skills and we have an environment where they think they need to bring in talent. I say no. Americans and American business should have loyalty to the U.S. They should always favor hiring American workers and locating jobs and economic activity in the U.S. It's our duty as Americans to protect the interests and economy of the U.S. As for corporate leadership, your duty as an American trumps your duty to your shareholders.
microsoft has layoffs all the time, including recently... wouldn't it make sense for companies that utilize this h1b scam be forced to rehire those employees, if qualified, before looking elsewhere for new hires as a condition of even being eligible for the h1b process in the first place? surely some of those workers let go by microsoft recently are more than qualified for currently open positions.
When welfare economics disappeared the people of the United States experienced stagnation. People like me have been in power in Europe and the people there are doing rather well compared to the people of the United States. Argentina had problems in the 1930s when into decline and since 1989 has seen its GDP rise 700% (vs. 200% for the USA). So yeah multiple coups are bad for the business climate.
that
I would even go one step further: They can only hire an H1-B if they did not offer these jobs (and any training) to the 18,000 people laid off.
In other words, someone hacking on Office could be offered a job writing software for XBox with minimal re-training.
By any measurable metric, the US economy has rebounded from recession far better than the Eurozone. GDP growth, unemployment... take your pick.
And the comparable growth rates you cite since 1989 are based, in Argentina's case on a "percentage of fuck all".
Military coups are the kind of thing that happen in a society that does not abide by the rule of law and respect property rights - which is exactly the kind of society you have been advocating. The moment the US embarked upon a programme of nationalisation of industries like Microsoft would be the moment that the US economy crashed with a speed (and irreversibility) that would take the world by shock. You think you have new solutions? They're the same failed "solutions" that have been tried for a hundred years or so around the world, leaving nothing but disaster in their wake.
Where is your product, I'd like to compare its success with any of these products you mentioned.
Canada is flooded with immigrants already. We don't need you making it even worse.
Buck Feta. You know what to do.
I would even go one step further: They can only hire an H1-B if they did not offer these jobs (and any training) to the 18,000 people laid off.
In other words, someone hacking on Office could be offered a job writing software for XBox with minimal re-training.
They aren't laying off Office hackers. The Office hackers are still employed, hacking Office.
They predominantly laid of former Nokia employees, who demonstrably were unable to produce products people wanted to buy.
Nokia workers are a large chunk of those laid off, but still only a fraction of the workers laid off. They laid off a very large number of non-Nokia Microsoft employees as well.
And "products people wanted to buy" is irrelevant. If you're a good coder, then you can code regardless of the popularity of the product with the fan base. Anyone who hires employees based upon the successfulness of their previous companies is very short sighted. They don't even do that for hiring CEOs where having run a failed company and extracted all resources from it is not considered a black mark at all.
The reason Nokia made products that people didn't want to buy is because Microsoft's Elop took over and trashed it.
There's a middle of the road there. "Try to compete" doesn't even come close to counting for quality of products. It's a race to the bottom, put simply. And, it's one you don't really and honestly want to be in.
How about median income: http://static.cdn-seekingalpha...
As for rebounding we got hit worse, and harder.
Nothing I said undermined the rule of law. I endorsed changes in law. If you are going to critique then you should be honest.
Nokia employees, who demonstrably were unable to produce products people wanted to buy.,/i>
Windows Phones.....
Loads of people wanted (and did) buy old Nokia phones, it was when they slapped that PoS Windows Phone OS on them, that things went properly bad.
Anyhow, the Nokia employees were surely competant coders, who could obviously turn their skills from C for Symbian development to .NET development easily. What makes anyone think they couldn't be employed at any other part of the Microsoft divisions?
I hope Micorsoft moves... We can finally get the masses to switch to LInux...
As long as IT workers refuse to unionize they will always be at the mercy of their corporate overlords.
Anyhow, the Nokia employees were surely competant coders, who could obviously turn their skills from C for Symbian development to .NET development easily. What makes anyone think they couldn't be employed at any other part of the Microsoft divisions?
I don't think the factory workers making dumb phones really have the coding skills necessary to transfer over.