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Ask Slashdot: Are Any Certifications Worth Going For?
An anonymous reader writes: I am an IT professional in my 30s and have had some form if IT employment for the last 15 years. I've worked my way from technical support to IS manager, but my career seems to have stalled. I have a fancy 4-year degree in Information Systems (I was never much of a programmer) from an actual college, and a good deal of real-world experience combined with reading the odd technical book here and there to keep abreast of what's going on in the world of tech, but what I don't have is any certifications. None.
When I was a poor student fresh from college, I decided that certifications were a waste of money, since the jobs I was applying for at the time didn't care about them, and the tests were several hundred dollars each. Now, it seems most jobs I see listed want some certifications, and I suspect HR systems are weeding out resumes that don't have the correct alchemical formula of certifications.
So my question is: are any certifications now worth it? If so, where do I start? I will probably stick to the track I'm on (I'm better at managing than developing). Going to classes might be an option, but I'd prefer to be able to self-study if possible to work around being on-call constantly (and, to be blunt, classes are expensive). I don't want to stump up for a class only to find out I don't actually like the class or the material or the certification isn't actually what I thought it was.
When I was a poor student fresh from college, I decided that certifications were a waste of money, since the jobs I was applying for at the time didn't care about them, and the tests were several hundred dollars each. Now, it seems most jobs I see listed want some certifications, and I suspect HR systems are weeding out resumes that don't have the correct alchemical formula of certifications.
So my question is: are any certifications now worth it? If so, where do I start? I will probably stick to the track I'm on (I'm better at managing than developing). Going to classes might be an option, but I'd prefer to be able to self-study if possible to work around being on-call constantly (and, to be blunt, classes are expensive). I don't want to stump up for a class only to find out I don't actually like the class or the material or the certification isn't actually what I thought it was.
I would argue that certs with practicals (CCIE, JNCIE, RHCE, etc) tend to hold their value much better than those that can simply be gotten by taking tests.
For example, I'm in the IT security field, and a CISSP does carry a good bit of weight.
I've also worked in virtualization, and have a VCP5 certification...I can tell you it might or might not mean something to a prospective employer, but I can damned sure tell when I'm talking about the workings of a particular client's virtual infrastructure whether their people are VCPs.
If you are serious about infosec certifications, check out GIAC (http://www.giac.org) . The certs are very applied and test practical knowledge (e.g. they are open book... no need to test how well you can memorize stuff). CISSP is good to get you started in the field.
---- join dshield.org Distributed Intrusion Detec
You are already moving in that direction and admittedly not a programmer. It is basically a paper chase not too far removed from a cert but non-revocable. You will have an IS degree + years of experience + an MBA. There s a large amount of career potential in that.
But stop hanging out at /., instead lurk around at CO.com and datamation.com to ensure you know all the latest trends.
putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
A different question - I had submitted this to 'Ask Slashdot', but obviously wasn't worth a subject on its own, so I'll post it here.
I have been studying IPv6 independently for a while now, and am looking at making it my new career. Since I don't have a work history in networking (and only have an N+ certification to even begin to claim qualification), it looks like the only way to do it would be to get an IPv6 certification. Therein lies the question: which certifications would be most likely to advance a career in IPv6? I looked at CCNA a while back, but IPv6 is just briefly touched by it in a single chapter. However, my goal is to get something that will put me in a position to help organizations transition to IPv6 — be it a dual-stack strategy or a migration to IPv6 only. So what, in your experience, is the best way to go about it?
Dear god please, we already have enough of you and I don't think I can take another.
Evening, Soulskill! I feel your pain. I'm in the exact same boat as you and have the exact same question. Hope to hear some valid feedback on this subject, as well!
Since it sounds like you aren't really technical anymore and don't have a desire to be technical, then I wouldn't recommend any of the technical certifications (RHCE, etc). Those are going to get you job offers for things you don't want to do. You should probably look for something more along the lines of Project Management Professional (PMP) certification, or something of that ilk. That will really help you manage projects and it probably looks good on a resume. Just my 2 cents.
Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it.
I interviewed someone with certifications. They had no skill.
I work in an office with no certifications.
Certifications might get you a raise, might not, averages on not. Won't get you a job. Averages on won't.
It might get you past the HR filter. But the best way to get past the HR filter is know someone. Good old fashioned networking.
If you have a job, get a cert and get a raise. If you have nothing else to do, get a cert and possibly get past the HR filter. But be prepared for the non-cert questions. Cos those are what matters.
Just lie about what certs you have, in 12 years I've never had a single company ever ask me for proof of any of my dozens of certs.
Really bad advice. NEVER lie to a prospective employer. Sure, it may get you an interview and you might be able to BS your way into a job by claiming stuff you don't officially have, but is it worth it?
Is it worth it to be sitting on pins and needles waiting for them to check up on you and fire you? The IT world is generally pretty small in most areas. Unless you live in an area where there are a LOT of employers, lying to get a job is a reputation killer. You may think you can just walk away and get away with it, but don't be so sure.
However, the best reason to not lie is that it is not ethical. ALWAYS do the ethical thing. Stay above the fray, tell the truth and get the certifications for real. It may take longer and be harder, but in the long run it will be worth it.
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
To see if said certs on a resume were actually earned?
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
All questions posed on slashdot. The answer is 'no.' Get skills, not paper
No, the answer is "What do you mean when you say The IT Field?" Serious question. There are a shitload of different types of career paths which are commonly lumped together under 'IT'.
Certifications vary in value. If any of them are applicable to your field, the Cisco certs are not a bad idea. I would say the CCENT is going to be somewhat valuable in pretty much any IT related field, but whether going beyond it (in any of the paths) is worth it all depends on what you're looking at doing.
Some platforms may have value if an employer uses them. So if you can narrow down your plans a little bit, you'll probably get some better advice on which certs can actually be useful (either from a paperwork or knowledge angle) and which are more of a waste of money and time.
My company, which is otherwise one of the best places you are ever likely to work, requires all employees to take and pass at least the SalesForce Developers cert. They do pay for it, but it's probably a big advantage to have it before applying.
For you profile, ITIL certification may be worth looking at. It gives knowledge essential for managing large IS departments, implementations, and data centres. It may not be as glamorous as PMP, but is essential part of managing IT for large companies. It is still a rare certification so it may actually be worth it. Being an IS manager you may appreciate many sections of the standard and contrast it with the way of doing things in your previous jobs.
Who wants to work for a bunch of clowns who rely on certification to hire people? It is a clear sign the HR guys don't have a clue about skills and competences and decided to outsource the job to learn about it. So, seriously, do you believe such working environment can be of any value? Do you believe your skills will really be recognized?
Achille Talon
Hop!
What you learn in the program will be useful, because you will then speak "finance speak". In most companies, finance runs the show, because, after all, they're in business to make money (or at least, not lose money). Whether you are in a finance position or not, knowing what it means is valuable as a manager. You're not going to be doing T accounts or computing EBITDA, but you'd better know what they are and why they're being done.
I can't even count the number of leaf nodes or managers who have no idea why "corporate" is issuing the edicts they do, but if you have even a smattering of finance knowledge, it's obvious.
Unless you're contemplating seeking a job at a high end firm, nobody will care where you got your MBA, nor what your GPA was. It's the fact that you can talk the talk and walk the walk that counts, more than the stretched and hammered sheepskin on the wall. Except for HR.. they need to see that caprine epidermis. But *they* do not care if it was from Wharton, Thunderbird, Kellogg or from podunk college. It's just to get past the filter.
It doesn't sound like you are a in the trenches programmer / admin so, why not take the strengths that you have (higher level technical ability and management) and work toward becoming a business process person. Being able to speak tech and business is quite valuable. Six Sigma / Lean are quite popular these days in organizations looking to become more efficient in their process then support the process with technology systems if appropriate. PMM is some sort of Project Management Methodology Certification, don't know much about it, but it seems popular in tech management circles.
It looks like you want to continue on the management track. In that case, your best best is to get an MBA. Yes, it's difficult and expensive but you might be able to get your employer to pay for at least part of it. I think that certifications are generally better for hands-on types. As a manager you're not likely to get much of that. If you just want to nibble around the edges in the technology then look at taking some of the free online courses. You won't get degree or any course credit out of it but it will give you an exposure to it.
The multiple guess tests show no practical application for knowledge. I have met plenty of people with certifications that are worthless, and the people with them were just as useless.. sometimes with dozens of these tests. These people were duped into spending tons of cash to get these certificates and had no practical knowledge. Knowing how to enter a netmask in someone's GUI does not mean you understand what a netmask is, or what a broadcast address is, or how to calculate either from the other.
RHCE, CEH, etc.. require practical knowledge. Having work experience can be, and usually is, enough to compensate for the lack of a certificate. The more experience you have the less essential a certification is. I have been in the business for nearly 3 decades, and quite honestly I'm never asked about certificates. Go back even 15 years and people did ask, and I did have some certificates. Today, I'm never asked and have a steady stream of requests to review job offers and even suggest candidates.
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
...the ones mentioned in the job postings you want to apply for. As for real world value (outside of getting your resume past a text filter) most have very little. The big practical certs mentioned in other comments in here are the exceptions but the vast majority are just extra revenue for the vendors.
I browse on +1 so AC's need not respond, I won't see it.
An MBA is a vehicle to convince other people that have MBAs that you believe that an MBA is necessary to work with other people that have MBAs that share in the misguided notion that having an MBA qualifies you to manage a business. Really, it is a ticket into a network of folks that believe that shortcuts and not actual work create a business.
Most certifications are like MBAs- except that they are shortcuts for HR resume screens, who use them as an easy filter and to avoid accountability that the people that they let through are qualified... "these applicants are CERTIFIED!" ... If you have the experience and you know someone, you will get the job, if not, you're in the pool of "everyone else" that has a certification. The most important factor in getting a job is networking.
If skills not certs, what skills can you learn on your own that would best translate to a better job? Quite a few things seem like they are not things you can just set up in your basement to get real world experience.
That won't work. I did it. Getting a MBA will not automatically get you into management or into the business side.
What will happen is that after 2+ years and a ton of money, you'll be back to doing what you were doing but with very expensive letters after your name - that no one in technology really cares about. I went to a top 40 school - not good enough for a lucrative consulting gigs like the Harvard guys get.
What I advise people who ask is first move into the business side or leadership roles - like a tech lead.
And keep moving towards management - many companies have that kind of career path.
As far as the MBA. Only get it if you really need it to get a job or to keep your job. And ideally have your company pay for it and allow for you to take time to take classes, work on projects, and study during business hours and even on company time.
Then there's this advice I received from a senior VP of a very large job site (via a common friend who forwarded his email to me): "MBA degrees are worthless."
Shit. Too late.
Go to Toastmasters and get a CC ("Competent Communicator") or any of theit further awards. It'll teach you how to present and interact with others in a professional scenario.
Pick a karate school you like and get a black belt. It'll teach you discipline and focus, and help you keep your health as you get older.
Join the SCA and work yourself up to becoming a knight. If you take it seriously it'll teach you honor and integrity.
Take first aid, CPR, and EMT training. Take some survival courses.
Take MIT courses from edX or Coursera for the certificate and grade.
I'm your same age cohort, same specialization, same years of experience, only I have no degree and I stayed out of management.
Certifications are for the inexperienced. My utter lack of credentials combined with my long history of being well-paid to do the work IS my meta-certification, if you get what I am saying.
Together, we will drive the rats from the tundra.
So you've realized that your skills are not in demand, so you turn to certs to boost what you don't have. Hmmm, maybe you should develop some new skills and advertise them. It's a classic capitalistic action but quite effective. I'm constantly looking for people who have good programming skills and I have a hard time finding them. A cert or two won't impress me, quite the opposite actually.
I am researching taking it as I see job postings requiring them for non network admins.
It is rediculous and overkill and nearly impossible to pass without prepping for 6 months and buying your own switches and routers as the simulators won't cover what you need to pass all for a silly assocites level.
http://saveie6.com/
Lying about certs is pretty bad, since it can be verified. But if you talk and act like you know what you're doing, there are plenty of people out there who'd be willing to hire you with or without certs. A lot of managers are pretty superficial, and good presentation is more than sufficient.
The thing is, usually, the job you get hired into won't be that demanding. A manager who can't tell know who's bullshitting and who isn't probably won't have terribly challenging work, no matter what the job descriptions say (because said manager probably pulled a bunch of buzzwords out of his ass for it anyway).
It's not a career, but it's enough to get by. And experience has taught me most of the world really just wants to "get by." It's a sad but not unreasonable fact of life.
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
Question: Did Steve Jobs ever have any "IT Certification" or not?
Question: Does Bill Gates ever need any "IT Cert"?
You may think that the questions above are trolls, rest assure, they aren't
IT certs are for those who do the grunt works in the IT fields
I have been in the fields for decades - and no, I don't need to boast - and the people whom I pay a lot of money for, those who have genuine new ideas and can really turn ideas into reality, I never need to know if they are "certified" or not
As for the code monkeys, but of course, they come looking for work armed with all kinds of certs, hoping that they would land a job because of the certs, not because what they can do
I was laid off earlier this year, and like you, did not have any certs. From my research, the one that seems to pay off the best, and is in reasonable demand is ITIL. If you want to go more technical, look at CCNA and A+. All are fairly cheap and especially the ITIL can be fairly easy to study for and pass if you've been working in IT management for a while.
The main problem with certs can be demonstrating by googling the cert title or number + "dumps". You will find the exact questions and answers for most tests. (More on "most" in a moment.) I don't mean a detailed outline - I mean the full text of the question, the possible answers, and which one is correct. Memorize the answers and you pass the cert.
As someone who periodically participates in hiring, I don't see much value in certs. I've had the experience of people who had certs who didn't know their stuff. I've never known any employer who given a choice between someone with many years of experience and someone with a cert, would choose the latter.
There are other problems with certs. I've always found the format is quite ridiculous. Why should I memorize things? If they test concepts, that'd be one thing, but often certs are "which of these commands is correct" kind of questions. What, am I trapped on a desert island with a datacenter to administer and no manuals?
That said, certs can't hurt. I find them valuable to study for though less to actually take. Vendors outline everything to get a basic knowledge, and that's useful to go over. The only time I see real value in certs is
All that said...the exception to the above is the certs that do have some value. These are the certs that you have to pass a lab for: RHCE, Oracle Certified Master, Cisco's CCIE, etc. A CCIE is highly valuable - those guys bill very well.
Advice: on VPS providers
In your case, certifications won't likely help you much.
I would say, that since you're asking the question, you probably are in the wrong field.
You're in a field with many bright, observant people and you haven't really bothered to pay close enough attention to the field around you but you call yourself an IS manager. I would say your problem is not certifications, its that you're just not that good or at a bear minimum, you aren't trying very hard and thats why your career is stalled.
With 15 years 'experience' you should know the answer to this sort of generic question.
The actually answer is 'yes, no, maybe, both, sometimes and never'. It depends on what you're trying to accomplish and who you're trying to get hired by or who you are trying to impress for a promotion or raise. You haven't bothered to consider what you're trying to accomplish but instead you've just come to slashdot expecting an easy answer. Certain companies will require certifications. Some will know that most are stupid. Certain certs are actually meaningful, and certain certs just mean you paid the right 'training provider' the right amount of money (i.e. took their training courses)
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
You are neither ethical nor moral, nor are you correct on your definitions. No one believes ethics are "the values you aspire to, completely uncoupled from morality". If you aspire to have the worst moral values possible, that's not considered ethical. Only aspiring to high moral values is considered ethical.
Aspiring to kill retarded people is not ethical, not moral, and your posturing fools no one. Frankly, you must work at an IT shop full of the lowest talent possible, because you'd never for a second get away with lying where I work. I had someone try that on an interview once: I'd ask him questions, and rather than saying "I don't know" he'd very calmly and matter of factly tell me wrong answers as though he knew them. Problem for him was, I knew the actual answers and new he was lying... we have real IT people doing tech interviews, not HR. My immediate comment in the HR meeting afterwords was that he's a liar and he should never be on our team, and he never was. You'd never be allowed in the door.
Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it.
You want a certification for a good career? Certified HVAC Technician.
You are welcome on my lawn.
If you use VMware at all in your shop, push your boss to pay for your training and certs at least up to and including VCP. Without demonstrable knowledge and skill in virtualized environment administration, you will find it exceedingly difficult to find another job anywhere. The trouble is that the VCP is ridiculously expensive - so have your company pay for it. If you don't use VMware, then at least get yourself a VCA - that, you will be able to afford yourself. But shoot for the VCP.
I am Audience.
"Certified" is the keyword for recruiters to discard your resume. It means you have no experience in the subject beyond a one week course. Instead, take a real class in a subject you won't to work in and that has a reasonable carrier potential. For example, Big Data technologies such as Hadoop, Cassandra and Lucene have reasonable earning potential. Even though you are aiming to be a manager, make sure you can setup the components and run, say, simple Hadoop jobs hands on so you have a clue what you will ask other people to do. Then get join a consulting firm like Accenture or Infosys and make sure you finish an important contract with good results. You can then try to convert from a contractor to a full time employee, which is much easier than joining from outside. Or, in the worst case, you have now have a compelling resume and good references in the field. Takes patience, but no one week class is going to give you same results and spending a year or two in order to actually get good.
I am currently doing Introduction to Functional Programming and I am very impressed on how much it has helped to get into Haskell. Earlier I've tried reading "Learn yourself a Haskell" and "Real World Haskell" but having to do excercises and labs made the difference (for me)
Perl Programmer for hire
We let someone go based on this alone.
Self Defense - A Human Right www.a-human-right.com
However, the best reason to not lie is that it is not ethical. ALWAYS do the ethical thing. Stay above the fray, tell the truth and get the certifications for real. It may take longer and be harder, but in the long run it will be worth it.
This.
Integrity is more important than education.
If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
I think you guessed it by now I am a very ethical person albeit not a very moral one.
Do you understand the difference between morality and ethics?
Morality is an innate sense of what is right by ourselves and others.
Ethics is an attempt to codify morality into an organized system of knowledge.
If you think you're ethical but not moral, then you care more about following the rules than you do about what the rules are supposed to achieve.
If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
dude you were great in T2.
H1B and the will to work 60-80 hours a week
There's no one answer here. Sometimes a cert will get you past an HR screen for a job you want, in which case it pays for itself no matter the cost (though once you're past entry level, the jobs you probably really want come from people you know, not recruiters you impress). Sometimes a cert will help your employer land a contract, or get a better partner status (=discount) with a vendor, in which case it pays for itself (as long as the company pays or you get a cut). Sometimes it's a good motivator to force yourself to learn something you've been meaning to get around to trying, even if you'd be embarrassed to put the cert on your CV. Sometimes, you think one of the above applies and it doesn't. Sometimes you think one of the above applies, but you can't be sure. The rest of the time, it's not worth it.
If you are in IT management and feel that your skills are best suited to spend the rest of your career in management, then you should work on a Masters degree (i.e. MBA or Masters in IT Management). Certifications are largely for skilled IT workers who actually do the work. Managers, on the other hand, tend to focus on strategy, keeping track of work and work assignments, reporting, etc. Usually for management positions, relevant experience covers any hands-on IT knowledge needed.
"redculous", "assocites" - I'd suggest investing in spelling and vocabulary books first.
You must be one of those people who liked the oily, whiny wimp who played Anakin Skywalker in Star Wars episodes 2 and 3. That's like the bad boy version of Justin Bieber.
Shame on you, and on the next three generations in your family.
lucm, indeed.
I call bullshit on this. The guy was probably an asshole, or he made a comment about the size of the ass of some VIP, and someone started to look for reasons to fire him. Uncovering fake credentials is a classic move in that situation (but planting coke or kiddie porn in the guy's office is usually more expedient).
Random certification check after the person is hired? Nah.
lucm, indeed.
It seriously depends. In my specialty, having the cert is actually the primary method for getting contracts. Most consumers of the technology I work with go directly to the source and use their "find a consultant" feature, which you can only be listed on if you are certified. With that being said, I stopped paying for certs in other things like CC**, MCSE's, etc, many years ago. Never once, have I ever been asked if I was certified in anything by anyone other than some schmuck recruiter fishing for a new resume to shop around. I would say though, there are certain gigs, like the one I am on now, that "require" a cert for this technology, but they've never asked me for it.
Betteridge's law of headlines. No is always the answer. :)
Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
I try to take two certs or something of a similar level every year.
The reasons are:
1) Management likes them. Having certs increases your chance of getting that interview.
2) They force you to learn parts of the product you normally don't use. This is the main thing for me, it gets me out of the items I normally admin and that the users primarily use and forces me to learn parts of the product I would not.
The saying goes certs will get you interviewed, experience will get you the job.
Sometimes process is more important than technical competence. A scrum master certification might get you recognized for seeing the bigger picture and potentially affecting change in a team. In addition to just scrum, the PSM course also touches on TDD, definition of done and many things that tie directly into the development process.
So my question is: are any certifications now worth it?
Depends on who pays for them.
Your current employer, or the unemployment agency or someone else? Go for any and all you can get.
You yourself? Check the job offers of jobs you care about. Make a list of the certifications that are mentioned there and check the top two or three (most mentionings). Do them if they are affordable.
Certifications are largely a scam or a shakedown, take your pick. They teach you nothing, and they check your ability to memorize test questions more than they test your actual abilities. I've got the test papers from CISM still here, and while my 15 years of IT security experience helped me pass it almost without learning, any buffon who's never even seen a computer could've passed the test by simply learning by heart the contents of one folder.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
However, the best reason to not lie is that it is not ethical. ALWAYS do the ethical thing. Stay above the fray, tell the truth and get the certifications for real. It may take longer and be harder, but in the long run it will be worth it.
Really bad advice.
You'll feel yourself superior and "above the fray", but in reality everyone who understands the business world better will pass you by in both pay and position.
I say that as someone who's listened to this bad advice all his life. Your reasons for not lying or not fucking over your boss or co-workers should be practical, not philosophical. You shouldn't lie because the damage if you're found out is bigger than the advantage you gain. For certifications, in most jurisdictions a lie on the details that got you the job is sufficient grounds for legal immediate termination at the least. That looks really bad on your CV.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
he sounds PERFECT for my old help desk job.
as long as you don't list that on your resume...
Job Title: Druggy Beach Bum
From 1-2010 to 1-2012
Job responsiblities included scoring drugs at 4:00 AM, dodging local police, spotty diseased prostitues.
John Mcafee, is that you?
ITIL certs are in great demand. A single search on Inceed has 1,600+ jobs, from $60k-$140k+. ITIL is also more policy than tech, sounds right up your ally. It's the "worldwide" standard now, ITIL policy REQUIRES my team to exist at my workplace...we do the ITSM "root cause analysis" part. Well, I'm supposed to but normally the network runs so smooth I might do 15 minutes of actual work a day, mostly I just watch primewire / neflix all night. I don't have any ITIL certs, but they ARE pretty useful but their just now showing up in the US on jobs. I can't actually name my client as I recently got in trouble from a VP for that (nice surprise there), but 1,500 feet away from me is the SABRE mainframe underground complex.
Well, you probably have one. But if you don't, seriously, it's important even if you don't have a car.
The reasons :
- It's a good all-around test : smart enough to understand traffic laws, good enough motor skills, minimum amount of common sense, etc... Basically shows that you are not crippled.
- Your employer may ask you to drive someday (buiseness trip, rental car...)
That won't work. I did it. Getting a MBA will not automatically get you into management or into the business side.
What will happen is that after 2+ years and a ton of money, you'll be back to doing what you were doing but with very expensive letters after your name - that no one in technology really cares about. I went to a top 40 school - not good enough for a lucrative consulting gigs like the Harvard guys get.
It really depends on what you want to do. yea, if you want to move back into tech you probably will get zero ROI. A key point is to look at a school's hiring results and see if the $ and companies will make it worthwhile.
What I advise people who ask is first move into the business side or leadership roles - like a tech lead.
And keep moving towards management - many companies have that kind of career path.
Good advice since experience helps a lot in post-MBA hiring.
As far as the MBA. Only get it if you really need it to get a job or to keep your job. And ideally have your company pay for it and allow for you to take time to take classes, work on projects, and study during business hours and even on company time.
Also good advice. If your company will foot the bill that means they value the degree and saves you money.
Then there's this advice I received from a senior VP of a very large job site (via a common friend who forwarded his email to me): "MBA degrees are worthless."
Shit. Too late.
That really depends on what you want to do. if you want to go back into an IT role an MBA is worthless; just as an IT degree is probably worthless if you want to do organizational development work. If you plan to switch careers then it can be helpful. It also depends on the school. There are a lot of schools offering MBAs that may have some regional recognition but not much value nationally and probably much less of a network, which is the real value of the MBA. Grades also count.
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
Yeah, very bad advice. If you get yourself into a Security audit / Compliance review position, where you have to be a CISSP, CISA or CISM (as an example), and the company is breached, you can be sued in cases. Granted the company should ask for proof, and two I have been at have asked, others take you at your word (CISSP has an ethic's policy for instance). Easier to just take the test.
What you want and think is immaterial.
It is all about what your future employer values.
The options are:
- The actual certifications matter to the employer. Unlike many longer established professions such as for instance law, medicine, architecture, which by law require professional accreditation before you can practice it professionally, IT so far has few if any such legal requirements. But the trend in industry regulation and quality improvement (such as ISO 9001) makes certification of your staff an easy, objective metric to "prove" a (minimal) level of staff competency. Without certification you simply won't be considered.
- The actual certifications don't really matter to the employer. It's about the actual skill level, but by using any number of common industry certificates in the job description you convey skill levels and areas that are important to the role. Your CV should make it glaringly obvious then that you're the right candidate.
As the candidate you don't know beforehand which is the case... :( although you can always try to inquire beforehand.
My personal opinion for a good number of certificates is that if you've been working with that particular technology for some time (and maybe with some self-study) you can simply show up for the exam and pass, without an expensive training beforehand. When a current employer doesn't want to pay, you can often qualify for some tax deductions when you pay for them yourself.
Or more bluntly; if you think you're THAT good and so much better then somebody who "only" has the piece of paper, then getting the actual certificate should be trivial for you and why don't you?
If a trainstation is the place where trains stop, what is a workstation?
I got a Bachelors in Business Management and I've worked in IT in higher education for a decade. I realized something early in working with technology, programming was not my forte. I've dealt with systems design and integration, instructional technology, instructional design, and being a jack of all trades, master of none. I worked within a semi-centralized IT environment and worked collaboratively with colleagues all over campus.
Recently a corporate shill CIO came in thanks to our VP of Business and Finance, and decided to destroy my college's IT community. The idea was to create efficiency by centralizing everything. Since the reorganization, I've seen 4 of my good friends and colleagues leave by force. I was shifted from instructional technology to client services, got my workload doubled, and received an 18% pay cut. By the way, this CIO left abruptly, merely weeks after enacting the re-org, for a higher paying job.
Now in order to fill needs caused by the laid off and struggling institutional IT veterans, the CS manager (who has no experience managing people, probably a friend of our former CIO) hiring whatever warm body Robert Half gives them, never mind the fact that we probably have about 50% mac usage among all faculty and staff, and the RH lackeys know nothing of Macs, and admit that to support clients. In reality, after this month, the CS team will only have two veteran techs that have been there for over 3 years.
I've been on the prowl for jobs in the area and have been looking for 6 months. I have experience managing people and projects across business units, but I'm finding roadblocks all over. I've got a year and a half to go on my masters in leadership development, and it's looking like I need to wrap that up before I can make the next step in my career.
As far as certs go, I see ITIL all over the damn place, and am thinking if I want in on IT managment, ITIL or PMP is the way I need to go.
Cert, diplomas and degrees are topping.
If you can't - with a straight face - say: "Gigs were low at the time, I thought I might aswell take a cert, to see if I could make it." then certs won't add anything. If, however, you want to raise your marketability as a freelance or in a setting where politics count for a lot, a certification can be the little extra that gives you the edge. Just don't rest on them or boast to much about them, then you're fine.
Perhaps a certification trail on a certain topic - SAP or Oracle - might even be a prerequisite. But then it's the equivalent of a college degree anyway. And the same rules apply for those, if perhaps on a larger scale.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
Just lie about what certs you have, in 12 years I've never had a single company ever ask me for proof of any of my dozens of certs.
Claiming you have "dozens" merely highlights your skill here as a professional liar.
It also makes me wonder if you did actually earn them, why the hell you even bothered.
Do you gain an advantage when interviewing for a job?? Not with me and many others, so the value in that instance is very low. I'm more interested in how smart you are, the specific experience you have in a subject, and your ability to utilize those skills. Certification just says you can study something very well. I've known people that have studied a subject and gotten certified with no experience, someone like that is useless.
Are you going for a job that requires it?? Some teaching and support positions require certification for public relations and marketing reasons. So in those instance, it's probably mandatory.
Do you want to use it as a tool to work towards learning as much as you can as a subject?? It can be very helpful to an individual to independently gain skills that may or may not be available in a more formal setting, such as college or trade school, and is probably a lot cheaper. I would say that value is very high for someone that wants to use it like that.
I rarely read replies, it's my opinion and if you thought about your opinion a little more, I'm OK with that.
However, the best reason to not lie is that it is not ethical.
I think the best reason is, job interviews should be as much about you testing the company as it is about the company testing you. Do I want to work for a company who will fail to select a good candidate because of some technicality? Assuming I'm a good candidate for the job, do I want to work in an atmosphere that's so bureaucratic and ineffective that the person doing the hiring isn't empowered to hire a good candidate because he lacks a meaningless certification? Not particularly.
I can see someone objecting, "What if you're not a good candidate?" Personally, I don't want a job that I'm not able to do a good job at. That sounds like a nightmare. I could see lying if I were absolutely desperate, with starving kids, about to lose my home, and I just really wanted a job. As an employer, I'd also probably forgive a white lie from someone in that situation. But if the situation isn't dire, don't lie. It's not doing anyone any favors.
Dynamips is an opensource Cisco router emulator (need your own IOS image though). I used it for my test prep (CCNP, which is a level above CCNA). Won't help you with the switches, but it's a start.
Random certification check after the person is hired? Nah.
More likely is that the employee blabbed to someone and the secret got out.
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
Definitely. If a 5-year old boy can manage it then it is worth aspiring to. I'm assuming his programming skills are thin on the ground as well.
Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.
However, the best reason to not lie is that it is not ethical.
I could see lying if I were absolutely desperate, with starving kids, about to lose my home, and I just really wanted a job. As an employer, I'd also probably forgive a white lie from someone in that situation. But if the situation isn't dire, don't lie. It's not doing anyone any favors.
I don't agree with your exception. Personally, I'd suggest you tell the prospective employer the truth, regardless of the situation. In the case you describe I would say something like "I don't have the certificate but I really need the job. I've done this kind of work before and think I can be useful to you right away, but I would be more than willing to obtain the certification on my own if you want."
Personally, I would be more likely to cut somebody some slack who was up front with me and I'd respond to the above with something like "Do you think you could do it within 3 months?" If the answer was "Sure!" then barring any other candidates who where a better personality fit and assuming I thought the candidate could actually do the work, I'd be pretty likely to extend them an offer. I'd also bring them on and then offer to help pay for books, training and testing for the certifications I thought was necessary... But I'm not a bean counter MBA type who thinks all engineers are interchangeable cogs...
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
You are so jaded, I feel sorry for you.
Ethics, doing what's right, regardless of what's done to you or who isn't looking, is actually one of the few ways to maintain your humanity. If you feel that it is necessary and advisable only to be ethical because it is profitable or you will be punished if you don't, you have totally missed the point. You sir are well on your way to all that is bad and horrible because you are all about you, and will willingly trample others to get what you want.
I implore you to not go down this road, it will destroy you and others in the end.
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
I've had several ask for proof of certs. Getting caught lying on you rapplication is a sure way to not get the job or get fired even after you are in the door.
I don't believe someone should be able to pass a RHCE or even a higher level MCSE without understanding something so basic as a netmask and broadcast address. I have seen plenty of Junior level admins stuff a /24 netmask into a /25 and have network problems that they can't explain. A "good" SA should be able to catch and correct this without need to find the network team to debug the issue for them. And yes, I have seen many MSCE holders have to traverse that path and bother their Network team for a simple SA error.
I happened to pick the Netmask and calculation as an easy target, but there are plenty of low level concepts that I believe all SAs should know. I don't care if you can give me all 7 layers of the OSI model by rote, I care that you can at least debug your area of responsibility as a SA.
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
That can work. Making the leap from technology leader to business leader is not easy. It is very tempting to fall back on old, reliable, technology skills like you did. Hey, you were good at that stuff so it is easy. recruiters want you for your past, but you want a different future.
If you do an MBA you have to realize, and accept, that an MBA is not the end . It is the beginning of learning a whole new set of skills you don't have right now.
if MBA is out, I recommend PMP and ITIL. Both applicable to both technology and business side and will help you make the leap...
For one thing, I'll concede that I'm kind of with you in that I'm very averse to lying. In reality, there's a good chance that I would be honest and advise someone else to be honest.
But really all I'm saying is, I could admit some kind of hypothetical situation where I'd be like, "Sure, yeah. I can understand someone lying in that situation." The hypothetical situation is that you're truly desperate for a job, you're willing to work anywhere, even a terribly bureaucratic place with people who lack the backbone to make their own decisions, but you need a job right away. And then you get a job interview where everything is going well, and you essentially have the job, and the interviewer says, "Oh, and you have this certification, right? It doesn't matter and we'll never check up on it, but my boss unfortunately will not let me hire someone without that certification under any circumstances."
Sure, yeah. I can understand someone lying in that situation. That's not the sort of situation most of us are in most of the time.
Is it worth it to be sitting on pins and needles waiting for them to check up on you and fire you?
You know what the worst part is? Many of those companies who didn't check that dude's certs probably also have a policy of carefully checking employee's resumes above a certain level in the company. Which means that if he does well, and gets promoted, boom he's fired because then they check all his qualifications. (I knew someone to whom exactly that happened.)
"No one believes ethics are "the values you aspire to, completely uncoupled from morality". "
You are mistaken. he seems to believe that.
Ninjas don't carry tic tacs
If you are interested in pursuing more of the management side vs. the technical side, consider rounding out your skill-set. Certifications such as CISA (Certified Information System Auditor) from ISACA and CIPP/IT (Certified Information Privacy Professional in IT) would provide a different perspective from what you may be used to. Both are self-study and are more practical than technical.
Full disclosure: I’m a CTO for a large state university healthcare system with a masters degree and 19 certifications. (16ish still active)
I would counter this question with a couple more. What size of IT do you want to work in? The requirements for degrees and certifications go up as you get into larger and larger shops. Are you thinking of the future IT landscape? Like it or not the pervasiveness of the cloud will make IT more competitive in the future as organizations begin to rely more on analysts with specific skill sets (and certifications in them) and project managers while deferring operational roles to cloud providers (or reducing staff somewhat with private/hybrid clouds).
My main point being that in the coming decade we will all need to be more competitive because there will very likely be a reduction in the necessary IT workforce. Certifications are one of the methods to achieve that.
We are also serving multiple masters now. The days of monolithic IT departments that cut their own swath through the business are pretty much at an end. IT has to become a part of the business strategy working as a partner to increase revenue. Yes, experience will always be king on a resume. But IT departments will fall in line with the normal degree requirements and post educational requirements already existent in other departments. IT managers will be able to make the case for that occasional “special” hire. But it quickly grows very tiring fighting with HR for every open position because candidates don’t have the organizational requirements. Plus, there are enough candidates that you can afford to toss a really good resume to avoid the fight. You’re not trying to get through the HR automated filters anymore; those filters have become organizational institutions.
Based on the background in the OP third paragraph I’d really recommend looking at project management certifications (good) and possible a masters degree (better). The PMP from the project management institute is very well respected but is based on the waterfall approach and may not be relevant to some IT shops. There are agile certifications out there as well (including one from PMI) that may be better suited and more interesting to you.
you have totally missed the point.
All my life, yes. The crucial point a lot of us more idealistic people miss is that all those who run countries or corporations whom we think belong into jail do not see themselves as bad people, because ethics is also subjective and personal. Those who are successful in the shark tank of the business world are so, because they've been brought up or trained themselves to the right ethics, the one where screwing over someone is right because you can convince yourself that he's weak and can use the lesson and besides it's the right of the strong people (i.e. you) to lord above his kind.
I implore you to not go down this road, it will destroy you and others in the end.
What's destroying humanity is good people who are unable to pick up a weapon when the bad people attack. In this the sharks are right: If you can't bite, you are prey. Sadly, too many of us have taken a deep sip from the poison well and now our children will have to fight the same fights that our grandchildren already fought, because for example we destroyed the power of the unions by not joining and not creating an IT union.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Like I said, I'm sorry for you, being that jaded. Being ethical is not being weak, in fact, quite the opposite. Being ethical is a strong position because it takes courage and commitment. It's a long term strategy for success where what you are suggesting is short term profit, long term failure.
Just "being a shark" as you put it, may look like the easy road to profit, but it's not a long term strategy. Take, for instance, selling used cars. If you look at customers as just rubes to be parted with as much money as possible, and you lie to make the sale, it will be your last sale to this customer and likely their friends. You make a short term gain over building a long term customer base where your customers return repeatedly and send their friends to do business with you. Personally, I'd rather do repeat business and get customers to recommend me to their friends over going the slimy "I'll lie to your face and you won't know it!" route to swindle them out of a few more bucks today. There are a number of car dealers I will NEVER go back to and I will encourage my friends not to go either. Sounds like some places where you will fit right in.
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
If you're going to stay on the Management track, an MBA is probably worth more than any cert. Although a PMP Cert is also pretty well respected these days, both by HR and by Management types.
That's not what I meant, and you know it.
If it weren't for deadlines, nothing would be late.
Billy, with GNS3 and IOU integration in a Virtualbox, you can recreate enough routing and switching topologies to pass the CCNA without buying any hardware - I would argue it's much easier now than when I got my ccna (1999) and folks had to buy 2500's used for 500 bucks each to get the hands on
of course, you could read Todd Lammle's CCNA book back then and pass it but I digress
RB
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ah honey, we're all resplendent - Bill Mallonee
I did the exam 3 years ago, and I completely agree with the breadth of the information you're talking about. Also, I agree with you about the Cisco training manuals.
However, I used the trainsignal videos, which would be less than 4.5 days of video in total, and it covered everything you need to know to do the course. I have significant experience with Cisco CLI so the simulators were a breeze.
I also found the test didn't cover the content to the n'th degree. All questions were of foundation knowledge in the subjects covered by the training materials. ie. If you read the materials once, then went and did the test, you stand a great chance of getting a pass score.
It did not ask obscure questions, and most multiple choice answers were obviously wrong (ie. no giving the OSPF timer as a potential incorrect answer for "what is the RIP timer default value") None of the incorrect answers in the subnetting multiple choice were common mistakes by transposing a single bit - if you make a simple mistake in your binary maths, the answer you calculated was not an option.
I think the Cisco course content is vast and difficult, the test, however is as easy as it possibly could be for that content.
I'd never touched frame relay, ospf or VTP but trainsignal covered more than enough, and stressed the test's common questions.
If you ignore Cisco's boring-as-hell books and subscribe to the CBTNuggets or TrainSignal/PluralSight training then spend a few hours testing yourself with the testking practice tests, it's very reasonable that someone with previous linux or networking experience could cram and pass the CCNA in a week.
Are any Certifications Worth Going For? Yes. Any cert if worth going for.
Why? Because HR and Hiring Managers are filtering
If you have 10 resumes, some with 4 years experience, and some with 4 years experience and a cert, and they want to narrow down the candidates, guess what the HR and Hiring managers are going to use? The cert will make the difference.
Also, certs can result in higher pay when the offer comes. Again, this is often just arbitrary bias by HR and the Hiring managers.
If you get certs in areas that you have practical experience, you will probably "really" learn and you won't be a paper cert.
If you get a cert in an area that you don't have practical knowledge, it might be paper, but it might help show you can learn a new product you don't know.
The HP3000 Professional certification before I die.
There's only one person still alive licensed to grant this certification, and he's gettin' old. (He flew P2 Neptune's for the Navy.)
Wonder if I can get my company to foot the bill?
Tracy Johnson
Old fashioned text games hosted below:
http://empire.openmpe.com/
BT
Lots of people on this site will have an opinion, but most of them are worthless.
A better way to find out would be to scan the ads for your area and see how many people are asking for various certifications, and to ask reasonably reputable headhunters and/or hiring managers (whoever you have available) in your area to see what's in demand (assuming you want to stay in that geographical area).
Best of luck to you.
may look like the easy road to profit, but it's not a long term strategy.
It depends on the environment. If other people are good and willing to defend their values, the bad guys will be in trouble. But if they manage to convince the majority to be either lethargic or even respect them, then the good people are the dumb losers.
And we are in that situation. Wake up, man! We admire rich people simply because they are rich, not for the ways they became so. We increasingly believe the war-talk of neo-con propaganda that unemployed people just need to be forced more strongly to want to work, and that benefits need to be cut because the poor are parasites. There was no blood in the streets when our governments bailed out the finance sector with so much money that it's hard to visualize while at the same time cutting budgets in education, health care and practically everything else.
You forget that the unethical (actually, "differently ethical" is correct here, because they believe themselves to be ethical, I'm sure) people also have long-term strategies. And they're winning.
There are a number of car dealers I will NEVER go back to
Are they still in business? If so, your rant is meaningless.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
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