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FCC Officially Approves Change In the Definition of Broadband

halfEvilTech writes As part of its 2015 Broadband Progress Report, the Federal Communications Commission has voted to change the definition of broadband by raising the minimum download speeds needed from 4Mbps to 25Mbps, and the minimum upload speed from 1Mbps to 3Mbps, which effectively triples the number of U.S. households without broadband access. Currently, 6.3 percent of U.S. households don't have access to broadband under the previous 4Mpbs/1Mbps threshold, while another 13.1 percent don't have access to broadband under the new 25Mbps downstream threshold.

430 comments

  1. What are the practical results of this? by Great+Big+Bird · · Score: 3, Interesting

    What are the practical results of this?

    1. Re:What are the practical results of this? by zlives · · Score: 4, Interesting

      verizon can no longer milk the broadband tax incentive cow to quite the degree that it was.

    2. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Subsidies for deploying "broadband" to rural areas (like mine) are going to be yanked since they actually have to have some actual bandwidth now.

    3. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      ISPs can no longer use false advertisement to try and trick ill-informed consumers (ie. grandma) into paying for garbage.

      Hopefully, the result would be that these companies would strive to do better to please their customers. Realistically, the result will be that these companies still know they own a government-sanctioned monopoly over their area(s) and make you pay for shitty service or get no service at all.

    4. Re:What are the practical results of this? by alen · · Score: 2

      Steam is faster along with xbox downloads. itunes and google play is hit and miss. some apps download fast others are like watching trees grow. same with streaming video on netflix and vudu. on vudu i've noticed older content is SLOW and cuts out a lot of times, most likely because it's not on a CDN

      not much considering that your speed is mostly dependent on the CDN that your content is being hosted on and it's relation to you.

    5. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I believe the main purpose of the reclassification is to affect who can advertise they are a broadband provider. General customers are used to buying broadband and now several services can no longer advertise themselves as broadband and hopefully, terms like high speed internet. The concequence of this should be that some services like DSL will start running new technolgy such as direct fiber in order to be able to advertise on the same level as there competitors.

      I would also assume that several companies just lost the ability to apply for subsidies for rolling out old tech and will have to upgrade the networks they are rolling out in order to keep meeting the requirments for existing tax breaks and subsidies.

    6. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      back in my day, i would open up a complaint with my isp and they would work with various network operators to ensure their transit path is not bottlenecked. a lot of the time we find a bad router that the isp wasn't monitoring. this also allows peering transports to rapidly update their routes and restore connections for all affected users.

      i'm just shocked when i call comcast and they tell me 'it's outside of their transit' and i'm like stop buying cheap transit then!

      i have a "business cable" connection. i do not yet make enough money to justify a 10gbps dedicated line to my house...

    7. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Penguinisto · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Nope - instead it'll milk the (soon to be announced) 'broadband improvement initiative' tax incentive cow for all that's worth.

      Silly rabbit, corporate tax loopholes can be found wherever your lobbyists can dig them. ;)

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    8. Re:What are the practical results of this? by firewrought · · Score: 2

      ISPs can no longer use false advertisement to try and trick ill-informed consumers (ie. grandma) into paying for garbage.

      Easily solved:

      BUY NOW!! Super-fast-ultra-speed internet** is available in your area!!

      **Up to 1Mbps or beyond!
      (And oh yeah, we'll still hijack DNS NXDomain responses, throttle Netflix/bittorrent, keep connectivity records, and spy on your traffic w/o a warrant.)

      --
      -1, Too Many Layers Of Abstraction
    9. Re:What are the practical results of this? by TWX · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If you want them to be forced to provide you with high-speed Internet, then you need to support government regulation. This is the result of less regulation; they attempt to pick-and-choose to whom they provide service to maximize profit.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    10. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We can now look forward to an increased "Universal Access Fee" applied to our cable bills to subsidize those who don't have access to the newly defined broadband. Thanks, I needed that.

    11. Re:What are the practical results of this? by ITRambo · · Score: 1

      Consumers can demand better service from their ISP's. Nag them enough and they may act.

    12. Re:What are the practical results of this? by SkunkPussy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Instead of mindless cynicism, don't resign to it, and don't joke about it. Campaign to stop it.

      --
      SURELY NOT!!!!!
    13. Re:What are the practical results of this? by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 5, Interesting

      This is why common carrier status should come in. Not providing good Internet to rural areas basically allows local providers to choose who wins and who loses when it comes to business. There are few businesses that can operate without good Internet connections now, and that number is sure to decrease.

    14. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That sounds way too socialist/lib for my tastes. Let the market decide what the best use of investors money is. Companies that require lots of super high bandwidth to do business will gravitate to areas where it is available and pay a premium for it; companies that only need low bandwidth or occasional access will move to areas where costs are cheaper and accept slower service. The end result will be an efficient system costing the least amount of money. Keep the government out of it.

    15. Re:What are the practical results of this? by grimmjeeper · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What are you going to accomplish? Both parties in this country are bought and paid for by corporate interests so there's no way to change the status quo until that duopoly is broken up. And good luck getting Joe Sixpack to think beyond the bumper sticker slogans provided to him by the talking heads in the media (who are in the same pockets as the politicians).

    16. Re:What are the practical results of this? by electrosoccertux · · Score: 0

      more people will move to the slashdot 2.0 version

      wait...

    17. Re:What are the practical results of this? by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 1

      bullshit. What you're suggesting is more anti-free market than what I suggested. What statements like this always forget that "free market" is assumed that the people involved are somewhat equal. It's not "free market" to allow one group of people to choose winners and losers. Not every small business is free to just pick up and leave, either.

    18. Re:What are the practical results of this? by bigfinger76 · · Score: 1

      They've been "out of it", resulting in the joke that is U.S. internet access.

    19. Re:What are the practical results of this? by nobuddy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well, I can toss in $100. That and your $100 ought to totally destroy the $890,000,000 the Koch brothers have announced they are tossing in to the ring this election cycle. Though the money that large PACs like Verizon belongs to will match the Koch brothers, then our $200 will be hard pressed to compete.

    20. Re:What are the practical results of this? by mrchaotica · · Score: 3, Interesting

      There are more than two parties. The trick is that you have to care about them at the local level first in order for them to become relevant at the national level later.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    21. Re:What are the practical results of this? by nobuddy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And the propaganda network is very effective. A family member posted a false quote from Elizabeth Warren he got from FoxNews facebook page.
      I pointed out that this quote is false, she never said it. Ever. It is a quote from Joseph Stalin.
      All the Fox fans jumped on board swearing it is real, that Snopes is lying, and they heard her say it themselves.
      The quote remains false, yet this pack will go to the polls thinking one candidate is Stalin because Fox told them so.

    22. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Locally the phone company still sells 1.5Mbps DSL and calls it "highspeed internet". Nobody seems to use the branding "broadband". 1.5Mbps didn't meet the old definition.

    23. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While you're wallowing in defeatism, the rest of us are working to improve things. It's ultimately up to you what impact you have in this world.

    24. Re:What are the practical results of this? by nobuddy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Why do the Libertarian crowd always claim that letting the already established huge companies have free reign will result in a more free market? It is mind boggling how utterly and willfully ignorant these folks are.

    25. Re:What are the practical results of this? by nobuddy · · Score: 1

      "Now available in your area Ultra Super-duper awesome speed internet!!"

    26. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, this is the result of too much regulation. Regulation that allows areas to be granted a monopoly to provide services to an area, like cable. What you're seeing is THE GOVERNMENT ITSELF allowing the provider to cut down on services to limited areas because it's not economically feasible.

      Didn't you learn anything from government regulation of ma bell and why fiber was never rolled out unless the customer paid for it because copper is "good enough for anyone" and political bureaucrats had no reason to upset the status-quo because both the corp AND the unions were paying them to maintain it?

      Centralized bureaucracies will always go for the lowest common denominator. ALWAYS.

      Let other companies come in and run their own cable or provide their own wifi networks and get rid of the government approved monopoly.

    27. Re:What are the practical results of this? by nobuddy · · Score: 1

      Not until they have real competition. Most areas, you have 1 option and 1 option only. Don't like it? Tough shit, talk to the hand.

    28. Re:What are the practical results of this? by ganjadude · · Score: 5, Informative
      why does everyone always talk about the koch brothers when the facts are the dems get just as much money from their rich friends and their rich friends PACs?? Hell this past year, liberal PACs brought in even more money than the conservative PACs! http://sunlightfoundation.com/...

      In a reversal from 2012, liberal billionaires top the list of biggest super PAC donors with a little more than two weeks to go before Election Day. Three of the top five givers lean Democrat, while the king of unlimited money mountain — environmental crusader Tom Steyer of California — is lapping the competition, a Sunlight analysis finds.

      also note, neither kochs make the top 10 donor list

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    29. Re:What are the practical results of this? by SirSlud · · Score: 2

      Guess what, you're that Joe Sixpack. They've successfully convinced you that it's not worth the effort of trying.

      --
      "Old man yells at systemd"
    30. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Holi · · Score: 3, Informative

      Investors money my ass. Do you know how much tax payer money has been given to the telecoms for the very purpose of implementing broadband nationwide? We've already paid them and so far got very little in return. You want to keep government out of it then be prepared to keep paying more and getting less.

      --
      Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
    31. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, if you are going to clutter up things with facts, don't forget that unions also contribute way more than corporations, but it is only money from corporations that is a problem.

    32. Re:What are the practical results of this? by itzly · · Score: 1

      Let the market decide what the best use of investors money is.

      A new yacht for the CEO, which they continue to screw the so called customers ?

    33. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Bonzoli · · Score: 1

      Repubs fear her for sure. I heard from one friend of mine that they want her to run so they can chase the "why did you check American Indian on your college forms?!" Which in the late 70's meant college discount and not illegal I believe.
      I'm waiting for someone to look under the rug on farm subsidies, but that's probably a pipe dream also.
      Or actually tax repatriated money at a reasonable rate, no loopholes.
      Or at least someone put back in the laws that stop multiple news agencies being owned by the same company/person in the same area. :(

    34. Re:What are the practical results of this? by TWX · · Score: 2

      Why would anyone build-out Internet access to rural places at a loss if they weren't either provided with incentives or required to do so? The subsidy thing (ie, incentives) isn't working as well as it should, and I don't see ANY companies interested in doing it without mandates or incentives.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    35. Re:What are the practical results of this? by grimmjeeper · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There are two parties. Plus a few fringe groups that have no power and no way to leverage themselves into political power. You're kidding yourself if you think you can break through the corporate/media/political duopoly/oligarchy that is in power. All they have to do is keep the unwashed masses foaming at the mouth over social issues and they won't notice that they're being completely screwed over by the system. Hell, most people couldn't name their local representatives. Forget them doing enough research to see how their representatives actually vote on their behalf. The only thing the average person cares about is what their representatives tell them during the very well financed campaign. Just take a side (for or against) on gun control, abortion, and gay marriage and your constituency will either line up for you or against you (depending on the district). The average voter doesn't have any time to pay attention to 3rd parties (who are usually extremeists or way out past the outfield bleachers anyway). They care more about making sure the "wrong" candidate doesn't get elected by voting for the "lesser of two evils", not realizing that they're voting for someone who doesn't give two shits about them.

    36. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Because thats how Republicans/Democrats crush third party political parties. They turn the message into one-line soundbites to lose the nuance and make them sound like absolute idiots.

      The Libertarian crowd claim that free reign will result in a more free market because they also bring up the fact that in most areas large companies have a monopoly BY LAW. You LITERALLY cannot compete in some areas because its ILLEGAL TO DO SO. THAT is what the Libertarian crowd tries to bring up. Big companies, small companies, wtf does it matter when the GOVERNMENT won't let them compete in the first place?

    37. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      Either that or they'll add "Broadband Improvement Tax" to their below the fold charges. Of course, it won't really be a tax and the money won't really go to improving their broadband access. You can rest assured, though, that your price won't go up!*

      * The advertised price, that is. Not counting all of the below the fold "taxes" and fees that they add in.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    38. Re:What are the practical results of this? by ganjadude · · Score: 2, Insightful

      she just sounds like a crazy hippy whenever i hear her talk.

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    39. Re:What are the practical results of this? by grimmjeeper · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I fully believe that this did (or at least could) happen in modern America.

      But sadly, the right doesn't have a monopoly on this kind of loony behavior. They tend to be more vocal and rabid right now but the left has it's share of BS flowing from their talking heads. Though to be fair, right now the only thing the left has to do to rally the troops is to point out how crazy the right is right now. There's plenty of material to work with.

      What I wouldn't give for a quality centrist party that's willing to compromise and work out policy that meets somewhere in the middle rather than having notthing but weird fringe parties who are way off to the edge in one extreme or another.

    40. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Toad-san · · Score: 1

      Redefining may be a help, putting more social and commercial pressure on the networks and ISPs. It's too bad we can't let the usual (?) free enterprise forces handle this but, as said above, that doesn't work with government-sanctioned monopolies.

    41. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      This gets everybody to "like" the FCC so people will go along with the FCC's attempts to seize control over the internet.

      No FCC; Dispite your efforts we STILL do not accept you or recognize you in any way of having ANY authority over the Internet. YOU don't get to define things. Broadband definition is the same as it has always been. It's defined by the industry and the creators of the product(s).

      Too bad, so sad.

    42. Re:What are the practical results of this? by ganjadude · · Score: 2
      A guy named Tom Steyer should be the new most hated donor out there for how much hes spending on the election http://www.powerlineblog.com/a...

      Billionaire hedge fund operator and “green” energy magnate Tom Steyer has pledged $100 million in the 2014 election cycle to help Democratic candidates who oppose the Keystone pipeline and who favor “green” energy over fossil fuels. Steyer claims to be a man of principle who has no financial interest in the causes he supports, but acts only for the public good. That is a ridiculous claim: Steyer is the ultimate rent-seeker who depends on government connections to produce subsidies and mandates that make his “green” energy investments profitable. He also is, or was until recently, a major investor in Kinder Morgan, which is building a competitor to the Keystone pipeline. Go here, here, here, here, here and here for more information about how Steyer uses his political donations and consequent connections to enhance his already vast fortune.

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    43. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      In many cases, these government sanctioned monopolies are the result of the dominant corporation buying influence in the local or state government and getting a law passed that outlaws competition (or places so many hurdles in front of it that it might as well be outlawed). For example, the state laws that say that local governments can't launch their own municipal broadband initiatives even if the big corporations don't serve these local areas. The state laws were bought and paid for by the corporations who simply don't want to compete against anyone else (especially not municipal broadband) even if "compete against" means the municipal broadband serves and area that they don't serve. (If they ever decide to one day serve that area then they'll have to compete and that can't be allowed!)

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    44. Re:What are the practical results of this? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      What? Lol

      This is the opposite result of less regulation. The government was sharing the costs of bringing broadband to rural areas. Now they cannot because a single entity by regulation changed a definition that specifically applies.

    45. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      Do you know how much tax payer money has been given to the telecoms for the very purpose of implementing broadband nationwide? We've already paid them and so far got very little in return.

      We got exactly what they promised us*.

      * Promises retroactively changed after the telecoms lobbied the government to declare the promises retroactively fulfilled even when they weren't really.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    46. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      48% of the libertarian crowd wants to get stoned. 51% of the libertarian crowd wants to close the EPA so they can poison you without regulation or repercussions. The remaining 1% would like to point out that a true libertarian would not accept poisoning others without repercussion, but duuuuuuuude.

    47. Re:What are the practical results of this? by grimmjeeper · · Score: 1

      I do what I can. I spread the gospel. I never vote for either of the two parties.

      What do you do to effect change?

    48. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Nite_Hawk · · Score: 5, Insightful

      My reading of the orignal author's point is that indvidiually most of us can buy very little influence with our contributions (Maybe $100 or so each), while extremely wealthy folks like the Koch Brothers can buy extraordinary influence with theirs. You're reply enitrely ignores that point and instead focuses on making this partisan (both sides do it! Liberals are even worse! etc). Ultimatly none of that matters in the long run. The important point is that a very small number of people in the world hold tremendous influence over the direction of the planet, and that power is becoming more and more concentrated (the top 0.01%'s share of the world's wealth has quadrupled in the last quarter century). Regardless if you think those folks are on your side of a particular issue, the truth is that ultimately they are all on their own side.

      This isn't a Conservative vs. Liberal issue, this is a society vs top 0.01% issue.

    49. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Ryanrule · · Score: 0

      defeatism is preached by republicans.

    50. Re:What are the practical results of this? by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      I dont disagree with your point. it just gets annoying when one side is constantly being called on for being the side of "the rich" when clearly that is not true at all

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    51. Re:What are the practical results of this? by eth1 · · Score: 1

      ISPs can no longer use false advertisement to try and trick ill-informed consumers (ie. grandma) into paying for garbage.

      3Mbit up? It's still garbage. Wake me up when they make it 25Mbit up & down.

    52. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Forgefather · · Score: 1

      First, who do you think it was that wrote those anti compete laws in the first place? Giant ISPs

      Second, who do you think is campaigning for decreased regulation? Giant ISPs

      Third, what kinds of regulation do you think these people have in mind when they say they want less regulation? consumer protection laws, NOT anti competitive laws.

      The best and most stable economies are tightly regulated.

      --
      "There are lies, there are damn lies, and there are statistics"
    53. Re:What are the practical results of this? by BaronAaron · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There is only so much space on the utility polls and under the streets. The number of companies who are allowed to run network cable has to be limited. It's the same with electric, gas, and phone line. I don't see why people don't understand this. It's government enforced monopoly because it's the only practical way to do it.

      With common carrier regulation the companies that have the right to use PUBLIC lands for profit must lease their lines to other companies at a fair market value.

      The real solution to all of this is the government should build the infrastructure using tax dollars and then lease it to private companies. If I was Bush/Obama in 2008 during the economic crisis I would have used the bail out money to build a nationwide Internet service. Would have hired a lot of people for quite a few years and we'd be better off as a nation for it.

    54. Re:What are the practical results of this? by grimmjeeper · · Score: 1

      Distraction is a tool used by both parties. Whatever is wrong, blame it on the other party. Way too many people fall for that schtick.

    55. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Shadow99_1 · · Score: 2

      My area (30 minutes outside one of the 100 largest cities in the US) has two choices for wired internet:
      Time Warner Cable @ ~$50/month for 20/1 bandwidth (and massive throttling at times)
      Verizon DSL @ ~$45/month for 1.5m/512k bandwidth

      Time Warner increased speeds 3 years ago, but Verizon hasn't bothered to ever increase their speeds. However they do now offer 3G service in my area (woo) which offers fairly similar cellular speeds, though service is spotty and it's easy for your house to not get reception.

      I suggested 2 years ago though my community get together to create an alternative because business was leaving due to lack of connectivity. We had spent years complaining, but even that large city near us has few non-business connectivity options beyond those I listed above (though they have 4G cellular service). They just say "look even the big city doesn't have good options, these things take time!" When we tried to create a third option, both companies stood in our way by sending representatives to the city council and 'explaining' how our plan would hurt them ever rolling out increased service for us. The council turned us down. Without the help of city council we simply cannot roll our own option (cannot use any public land at all or even private land without individual consent). So we simply cannot roll out a third option. All of that is without the fact that in every other area I've heard of if we did start to lay lines got sued by the incumbents.

      They care about money and only money. Talking to them gets you nowhere because they no you only have them as options...

      --
      we are all invisible unless we choose otherwise
    56. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Silly rabbit, corporate tax loopholes can be found wherever your lobbyists can dig them. ;)

      And then the government's own tax men re-write said laws to NOT include these loopholes, and the government can order any of these corporations to pay back the difference or else.

      Yes, I'm being serious.

    57. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Rob+Y. · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem with "The dems raise as much money as republicans" is that, either way, the election becomes about the issues that moneyed donors care about - and almost nothing else. I believe Obama raised more money through smaller donations than Romney did, but even if not - he didn't appoint the Citizen's United faction to the SCOTUS.

      Money in politics is a problem - whether it favors one side or not. And it sure seems like the right wing of the SCOTUS thinks it favors their side - because political money is bribery as much as it's speech. And one-person-one-vote democracy doesn't work with one billionaire $100 million worth of speech vs 1 normal voter, 10 bucks.

      --
      Posted from my Android phone. Oh, I can change this? There, that's better...
    58. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because, again, only the companies granted local monopolies (due to regulation) get the buildout money or incentives and as they're already major players it's not economically worthwhile for them to do so even with the subsidies.

      It's far better to get the government to get out of the protectionism racket (which it won't because the politicians, not the consumers, are the direct beneficiaries of it) and let other providers provide solutions. Google could make a killing with low altitude wifi because they wouldn't have to provide unified service to every customer in a city but could tailor their delivery mechanisms to a smaller number of spread out customers (which politicians don't care about either because they're not a big enough voting block)

    59. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I do what I can. I spread the gospel.

      Yes...their gospel.

      I never vote for either of the two parties.

      You're making a deliberate effort to oppose and discourage any action to reduce their power. That makes you a stronger supporter of theirs than any hundred of their voters.

    60. Re: What are the practical results of this? by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      Rather than argue with them, bet them money. If they are so certain of the quote, let their stubbornness make you richer. Mine stupidity. And slapping them with their own wallet my wake them up. 2 benefits.

    61. Re:What are the practical results of this? by outlander · · Score: 1

      Comcast will suddenly get religion and actually start providing the speeds they advertise.... .....(or not)

      --
      "Truth is what works" -- William James "It works!!" -- o-dark-AM comment
    62. Re:What are the practical results of this? by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Union contributions are, more or less, under the control of the people who are in the unions, and if you don't agree with a union's political agenda, you have a legal right to withhold that portion of your dues, so your portion of that contribution is 100% under your control.

      Corporate contributions, by contrast, are entirely under the control of its board of directors. As a shareholder or normal employee of that corporation, you have no control over your portion of the contribution. Corporate contributions represent a concentration of power in the hands of a few individuals, which makes them fundamentally different.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    63. Re:What are the practical results of this? by outlander · · Score: 0

      Naah, the 1%-libertarians would just whine that the regulation that doesn't allow you to poison others without sanction constitutes prior restraint.

      --
      "Truth is what works" -- William James "It works!!" -- o-dark-AM comment
    64. Re:What are the practical results of this? by fche · · Score: 1

      ... or campaign to get the feds to bud out of this issue entirely, so that there would be no lobbyists to be feted by, and no telco companies to bail out.

    65. Re:What are the practical results of this? by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      you have a legal right to withhold that portion of your dues, so your portion of that contribution is 100% under your control.

      have you ever worked in a union? while this is true, most of them make it hard as heck to jump through the hoops needed to jump through to ensure none of your dues are used towards political campaigns.

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    66. Re:What are the practical results of this? by leonbev · · Score: 1

      Realistically, it means that a lot of broadband customers are going to get a "free" upgrade from 20-24 Mbps to 25 Mbps over the next few months in order to placate the FCC and pretend that they give a damn about this ruling.

    67. Re:What are the practical results of this? by WheezyJoe · · Score: 2

      Both parties in this country are bought and paid for by corporate interests so there's no way to change the status quo

      Why do people always say this? Although both parties receive contributions from whoever wants to contribute, they most definitely don't behave the same. This FCC decision is a prime example: the two Republicans voted lock-step with the cable lobby, but the three Democrats had the balls to stand against it to at least try to drag the United States into the future. So, thank you, Democrats, thank you, particularly for calling out the industry's lobbying bullshit, testifying that 4Mbps down and 1Mbps up is just plenty, while at the same time telling consumers that same speed sucks and that we all should pay premium (not available in all areas) because ’25/25 is best for one to three devices at the same time, great for surfing, e-mail, online shopping and social networking, streaming two HD videos simultaneously. 50/50 is best for three to five devices at the same time, more speed for families or individuals with multiple Internet devices, stream up to five HD videos simultaneously.’

      --
      Take it easy, Charlie, I've got an Angle...
    68. Re:What are the practical results of this? by sasquatch989 · · Score: 1

      Best username ever

    69. Re:What are the practical results of this? by grimmjeeper · · Score: 1

      So you're suggesting that I need to vote for them in order to break their choke hold on power?

      Wow. Just.... wow.

    70. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Penguinisto · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If only I had mod points...

      The closest any third party has come to a presidential election was Ross Perot, in 1993. He had a very well-oiled hype machine and a shitload of money, which is why he got as far as he did. Even after he began stumbling and his campaign imploded (hard), he still got 13% of the vote... pretty impressive by most standards of the modern era.

      On lower levels, Bernie Sanders (nominally a member of the Socialist party, but caucuses with the Democrats 99% of the time) is the only national candidate period to have made a national office since what, the 1950's?

      It's going to take a radical change in attitudes, a really rotten national situation overall, and an even more radical amount of disgust with the current system before folks wander off to vote for a third party. Even when some ideological icon does run on his own (e.g. Ralph Nader), you will see the immediate (and dishearteningly effective) rallying cry of the threatened major party (in Nader's case, the Democrat party immediately started screaming "OMG you'll split the vote and then they will win!")

      It'll take a lot to get a third party off the ground. Not impossible, but it'll take a lot to happen nonetheless.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    71. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Symmetric speeds or "upstream parity" on consumer internet service will never happen in the US so long as intellectual property and entertainment (read: MPAA/RIAA) remain our largest exports. As you've probably noticed, most US internet providers now own or are owned by content companies. Their two biggest threats are a) piracy and b) users who produce and distribute their own content. To do either of these things at levels that might actually hurt the content companies, you need a reasonable upstream. They will destroy themselves as an industry before willingly handing that capability over.

    72. Re:What are the practical results of this? by grimmjeeper · · Score: 1

      I didn't say that they were bought out by the same corporations. It may be true that in some cases some corporations do contribute equally to both parties. However, there are many cases where one industry favors one party over the other. But that doesn't change the fact that the two parties pander to the corporations who fund their campaigns while they ignore the wishes of the electorate.

    73. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thats true, but so what? The Libertarian party isn't the party of "small government", thats the Republican party. The Libertarian party doesn't want big/Federal or small/local governments to have the power to outlaw competition.

      If anything, this is all the more reason why the Libertarian party should be more dominant on this issue.

    74. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They always talk about the Koch brothers because that's all the media talks about. The narrative is run by the party that controls the media, which are the dems. Also why you never hear them talk about Soros.

    75. Re:What are the practical results of this? by TWX · · Score: 1

      Again, what other provider will build-out to a rural area when it's unprofitable to do so?

      Keep in mind, that simple electrification of rural America wasn't completed until the 1950s, and was only started due to Depression-era programs like the Tennessee Valley Authority and the Works Progress Administration basically footing the bill to attempt to employ the unemployed.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    76. Re:What are the practical results of this? by rahvin112 · · Score: 1

      Free markets don't remain free without regulation.

      Monopoly is the usual result of business in which there are high capital costs to enter the market. Local residential service of any sort that requires stringing wires or pipes to individual homes is so ridiculously capital intensive that it is a natural monopoly. Without regulation that market will become a Monopoly naturally and that monopoly will then begin to abuse it's position to displace and harm other business.

      As others have noted, internet is the new phone service. It's almost impossible these days to function without internet, that includes finding and maintaining a job, educating your children etc. But there is big money that opposes the regulations this will inspire because there is big money to be made abusing those monopolies, particularly now that regulations that prevented these companies from controlling media systems are now gone. These monopolies can now use their position to prevent the rise of competitors to content offerings which would provide competition to their business. In time they will use the position to leverage themselves into other markets.

    77. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The libertarian crowd is a pretty big mass of greythink. Just like all the other groups, the noisy ones are the crazies. Libertarians as a whole are not against all government regulation, they just want it to be justifiable, accurate and consistent. In cases similar to this, the majority of the libertarians don't think that "regulation is evil", they think that regulatory capture has taken place, removing much of the justification for the regulation that's going on.

    78. Re:What are the practical results of this? by TWX · · Score: 0

      There's a lot more space than you're thinking. First, there are a lot of unused utility easements that could be used for neighborhood last-mile distribution. Second, not all trunk lines need to run in the same alignments, so new providers can take different paths so long as they're respectful of what's there. Third, a POTS use continues to shrink, demoing-out old copper and moving the telephone company's fiber into those conduits or on those positions on the poles would free-up other positions and conduits for other services.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    79. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Now that is going to need a source, something nonpartisan please.

    80. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, the end result is companies get monopolies because they're the only ones who built cable somewhere and they have collusion deals where they refuse to compete with each other so they can rack up prices without improving service. Which is what's happening, without government intervention and its working for nobody except the cable companies.

    81. Re:What are the practical results of this? by MetricT · · Score: 2

      I'm lean moderately libertarian, but understand what a natural monopoly is. It's not libbys per se, more a Tea Party thing.

      Some people are so seduced by the simplicity, the elegance, of an ideology, that they never pause to consider whether it is actually *correct*. They don't want to let annoying things like facts mar the beauty of their True Beliefs.

      Having tried to teach them a few things, I have learned the hard way that they are paranoid, ignorant, and completely reject any information that doesn't conform to their beliefs.

      "97% of scientists believe man-made global warming is right."

      "See, it's not unanimous!!!!"

      "If 97% of doctors told you the mole on your cheek was malignant, wouldn't you get it removed?"

      "You're a liberal elitist."

      They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. As far as I can tell, they are mentally-challenged Terminators.

    82. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except the prices in the areas where slower service is all you can get is not cheaper. In many places, it's actually *more expensive* than the bigger areas for the same speed (if that low a speed is even available in the big areas), because the providers are the only provider available and the consumers have nowhere to go. And no, just not having internet is no more an option than just not having electricity these days.

      On the larger scale, the end result is rural rot and massive urban sprawl as people move to where things like high speed internet access is. We all see how well that's working out for Silicon Valley...

    83. Re:What are the practical results of this? by ganjadude · · Score: 0

      actually it sounds as if neither of them happened. as i said im not going to look at everything hippy lady said , but at the same time i dont really care if she quoted stalin or she didnt, its not important

      Just like this congressman not giving a speech to a "hate group" is not important, even if the media is still trying to tie him to it

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    84. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What you said doesn't make sense. You said the government gave taxpayer money to the telecoms and we got very little in return and then assert that if we keep the government out of it we will pay more and get less. It seems to me, that if the government had been kept out of it, we might still have shot service but we would also have the billions given to the telecoms. The problem is very much the government. Government granted monopoly franchises to cable companies as a way to tap into the money from a brand new industry without appearing to raise taxes. Having established that precedent they eliminated the possibility of competition. Now, if the government treated it more like the electrical grid, built it out, and then leased bandwidth out at one price, then we could have real competition.

    85. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You said it yourself -- the government people are PAID BY THE COMPANIES to keep the status quo. The companies are anything but innocent in this cluster. (The fatal flaw here, I think, isn't "government," nor is it "companies," but rather the ability for the two to be mixed and the resulting amount of power large conglomerates have over government, resulting in the ability to buy regulations that serve only the leading companies.)

    86. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      why does everyone always talk about the koch brothers

      Why, indeed:

      http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsal...

    87. Re:What are the practical results of this? by pslytely+psycho · · Score: 1

      Actually, competition gives them 'religion.'

      Where I live, Comcast does deliver their advertised speeds, at least since Century Link, Hughesnet, and (I don't remember offhand our other competitions name) came to town. Admittedly, Century Link at 25/5 is the closest to Comcasts 50/?, but Comcast frequently runs slightly over their stated speeds. And their customer service has improved a great deal.

      Real competition has made Comcast bearable here.

      The only issue I have with Century Link is that about 4 times a week, I have about a ten minute 'outage' while the modem resets, annoying, but at $36 per month I can live with that over Comcasts $59. I do miss how fast large files download, (Steam games take about 30-40% longer to download) but it is not so much worse to make me want to return to Comcast.

        And HD streams work just fine on the two main devices my wife and I use. And Popcorn Time eliminates the need for my wife to have Cable TV, so I was able to cut the cord and satisfy her ability to watch her favorite shows. She no longer misses cable TV, so win-win!!!

      --
      Donald Trump, on a crusade to make Nixon look respectable
    88. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That's a favorite Republican tactic: quote a "liberal" quoting somebody else and attribute it to them. For example, I could make a speech where I said, "Hitler believed Jews were an inferior race and should be exterminated, but believe Hitler was psychotic and his views reflected that." Later on someone like Nancy Grace would report that Anonymous Coward gave a speech where he said, "Jews are an inferior race and should be exterminated." ZOMG!

    89. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      so when your (internet) backwards nation finally meets minimum standards you can say because America and USA #1. It is aneasier political option than matching the best of the rest of the world.

    90. Re:What are the practical results of this? by maharvey · · Score: 1

      Does this really work? Dude that's SO AWESOME! I can't want to get started... is there some secret, or can anyone do it? I have a long list of things to not recognize from now on: income taxes, the law of gravity (woo I can FLY!), taco bell sharts, speed limits, the list is endless!

    91. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      She's from Massachusetts, so - yeah, she is.

      But even then, the Dems would be crazy to run her. Look at the previous presidential candidates from MA: Dukakis (lost), Kerry (lost), and Romney (lost). The last MA candidate that won was - what, JFK? And that hardly turned out well for him.

    92. Re: What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Just because you see a quote on the internet with a picture of a person next to it, doesn't mean they actually said it. ---Abe Lincoln.

    93. Re:What are the practical results of this? by topology · · Score: 2

      Things would be more fluid if we changed our voting system. Instead of "pick 1 out of many" we should have approval voting or a ranked voting system. Pick 1 out of many always converges to a 2 party system when people vote out of fear that another party will get elected. Those that fear Republican rule vote Democrat. Those that fear Democrat rule vote Republican.

      Approval voting is the clearest method to understand. You vote "yeah/nay" on each option and the winner is the one with the greatest yeahs. This allows people to broaden their support of alternate parties while still getting to cast their fear-based vote. This is the only way that I see for the alternate parties to emerge without some significant scandal causing one of the current parties to implode.

    94. Re:What are the practical results of this? by The+Moof · · Score: 1

      hit and miss [...] streaming video on netflix

      Believe it or not, this is actually a setting in your Netflix options which defaults to "Auto." I had some flaky playback until I told it to use as much as possible, now it's HD all the time.

    95. Re:What are the practical results of this? by spire3661 · · Score: 1

      I agree with you in principle on why upload is constrained, but the floor is going to rise so much that it will make it moot. Anything past 20 Mbps for everyone is internet paradise. WE could get a true decentralized internet no problem with that baseline in every home.

      --
      Good-bye
    96. Re:What are the practical results of this? by topology · · Score: 1

      What I wouldn't give for a quality centrist party that's willing to compromise and work out policy that meets somewhere in the middle rather than having notthing but weird fringe parties who are way off to the edge in one extreme or another.

      What would it take to start one? And how do you ensure it stays quality as it grows?

    97. Re:What are the practical results of this? by grimmjeeper · · Score: 1

      You'd have to do the impossible.

      You'd have to get the average American to give a shit about something more significant than the latest reality TV show. You'd also have to get them to discard their willful ignorance on the issues and care about more than their own selfish self interest.

      So yeah, I don't see it happening.

    98. Re:What are the practical results of this? by alva_edison · · Score: 1

      >

      "97% of scientists believe man-made global warming is right."

      "See, it's not unanimous!!!!"

      "If 97% of doctors told you the mole on your cheek was malignant, wouldn't you get it removed?"

      "You're a liberal elitist."

      I know it's not actually completely necessary to your point, but I can't actually figure out which side you are advocating for or against on this.

      --
      He effected a bored affect.
    99. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are more than two parties. The trick is that you have to care about them at the local level first in order for them to become relevant at the national level later.

      There is only one actual party. The only fidderence in the two major factions is how they will pick our pockets and screw the citizens over.

    100. Re: What are the practical results of this? by sonicmerlin · · Score: 1

      The democrats are center right. Republicans oppose everything they propose.

    101. Re: What are the practical results of this? by sonicmerlin · · Score: 1

      Yes it is true.

    102. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because the Republicans hate us and want us to die. Rmoney joked about starting another crusade, but this time against people that use the Internet. I don't think he was joking. I think that man-like object wants to kill us all. That is the way of their kind. They've proved they'll kill to keep Internet access from us. Here in Seattle, this Republican-ruled city doesn't allow competition to Comcast. They hate us.

    103. Re:What are the practical results of this? by TWX · · Score: 1

      Sarcasm?

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    104. Re:What are the practical results of this? by whistlingtony · · Score: 2

      You know.... I'm politically active. I've spent time in my capital, which is a not insignificant drive away. I have my reps as contacts in my phone. I've spent a lot of time talking to my local state reps. I've seen the lobbyists walking around.

      The thing that gets to me is how LITTLE people talk to our reps. They WANT to hear from people. Everyone seems to have YOUR attitude, and frankly... All the problems that this country has are YOUR fault. To quote a famous man "All that evil needs to succeed are for good people to do nothing.".

      All day long, they talk to lobbyists. They don't get bribed, at least not outright. They do get paid for access... Lobbyists leave some money in the jar, and they'll get to sit down with the rep and say their peace. That pressure on our reps is constant, and the only thing that can counter is is for people to become politically active.

      Shit, it's not like there are a lack of problems to poke. If you really can't see any fixes for our political messes, get your ass off the couch and go fix one of the OTHER problems. I myself, and trying to get money out of politics. I sure could use the help. But you're just standing there, looking like a smug and useless asshole.

      I get it. I used to feel like you do. THAT'S HOW THEY WANT YOU TO FEEL so you don't DO anything. It's surprisingly easy to make the world a better place. You don't have to march in the streets for hours every week... You could simply vote with your dollar and try to buy only goods that are ethically made. It's not even that hard these days....

      So. Please. Come help us help YOU. :D

    105. Re:What are the practical results of this? by whistlingtony · · Score: 1

      There are 300+ million Americans. Don't underestimate what everyone giving $100 can do.... (that's 30X what the Koch brothers are giving if you don't want to do the math)

    106. Re:What are the practical results of this? by DanielRavenNest · · Score: 1

      How about the same people who actually wired up rural areas, the Rural Electric Cooperatives? The TVA built dams and power plants, but the REC's did the local work. As cooperatives, they are customer-owned. The government helped them get started with loans, but those are long since paid off. The advantage of using the Electric Co-ops is they already have poles going everywhere necessary.

    107. Re:What are the practical results of this? by dryeo · · Score: 1

      He also is, or was until recently, a major investor in Kinder Morgan,

      So basically American politics is the supporters of one pipeline and the supporters of anther pipeline competing for votes, especially sad when neither actually helps the American people.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    108. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's not what I'm suggesting at all, and you know it. Strawman arguments are lies.

    109. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      I believe Obama raised more money through smaller donations than Romney did, but even if not - he didn't appoint the Citizen's United faction to the SCOTUS.

      He did not, and he would not.

      And one-person-one-vote democracy doesn't work with one billionaire $100 million worth of speech vs 1 normal voter, 10 bucks.

      You do realize that the Citizen's United case was specifically about a group of people trying to get around the "1 normal voter, 10 bucks" problem by aggregating many normal voters into many bucks, don't you? The only error CU made was in trying to buy airtime for an anti-Hilary movie. Otherwise, they were trying to deal with the very thing that you seem to be saying is a problem.

      You're also implying that that billionaire is actually buying votes with his $100 million. In truth, his one vote counts just the same as my one vote and your one vote and everyone else's one vote. The true issue with "one-person-one-vote" is first to know that the one person has the right to vote before he is allowed and second that he only gets one vote. Requiring ID is the obvious solution. The same kind of ID that every citizen of many other countries is required to carry to get government services of any kind, and even many private services.

    110. Re:What are the practical results of this? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      What I wouldn't give for a quality centrist party that's willing to compromise and work out policy that meets somewhere in the middle rather than having notthing but weird fringe parties who are way off to the edge in one extreme or another.

      The Democrats are centrist. We don't have a leftist party, at least, not a credible one.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    111. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're so cute. You believe it is a "Republican" tactic.

      Sure, Republicans have used it, just like everyone else does.

    112. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Fire_Wraith · · Score: 1

      For one thing, Comcast/ATT/etc can no longer claim that crappy DSL is a viable alternative, so in many areas, they are now officially a broadband monopoly. We've always known that they were, but they've maintained the fiction under the old rules. No more. This could have impacts on both mergers like the proposed Comcast/TWC one, as well as on the hopefully impending reclassification of ISPs under Title II of the Communications Act.

    113. Re:What are the practical results of this? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      have you ever worked in a union? while this is true, most of them make it hard as heck to jump through the hoops needed to jump through to ensure none of your dues are used towards political campaigns.

      It's a lot of bullshit anyway because most of what Unions do is political. The part of actually looking out for worker's interests is a minuscule part of what they do.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    114. Re:What are the practical results of this? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Keep in mind, that simple electrification of rural America wasn't completed until the 1950s, and was only started due to Depression-era programs like the Tennessee Valley Authority and the Works Progress Administration basically footing the bill to attempt to employ the unemployed.

      Well, real unemployment is still at levels not seen since the last great depression, not the published bullshit rate but the inverse of the workforce participation rate. So, where the hell are our public works projects?

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    115. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I live in a rural area. There is no fiber, cable, DSL, or land lines good enough to make a call within 3 days of a drizzle. The Internet I do have comes from a 3G modem at the top of a 70' tower. I would buy and trench/hang cable on the weekends. That I have money and skills to do; however, there is literally hundreds of miles of red tape spanning the utility company to the state legislature. The cost of securing the licensing, permits, and bonding far exceed the cost of the materials and a used ditch witch. I am better off buying plots of land and creating a WISP to service one person - me. None of my neighbors care enough to help out, but I'm sure they'd all get cable if I paid the cable company to drag a line out here. Pshaw.

    116. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Eythian · · Score: 1

      Wow, that sounds bad.

      I'm in the ... 2nd or 3rd largest city in NZ (it changed a while ago, I think) and have 50Mb cable for NZ$75/mo (I think it's US75 to the NZ$1 at the moment, roughly.) I could pay $10 more and get 100Mb, but I actually don't have a need for that. This is all without the data cap that are still common here, but decreasingly so.

      Now, I only have one provider I can use via that cable, and they're not terrible. However I also have DSL as an option, and by law the copper and infrastructure provider can't be in the telecoms retail business. As such, I have no idea how many ISPs I could chose from. Dozens maybe.

      The country is also getting fibre put down all over (the central city here has had it for years now through another provider, but now it's coming to houses), but it'll be a fair while before it gets to my place, just due to location. But, 50Mb cable will keep me happy until then.

    117. Re: What are the practical results of this? by tnk1 · · Score: 1

      Do you truly believe that the Democrats are not supported by their own set of heavy hitters? They're all rich, and they're all on the side of the rich.

      The Democrats are frequently able to outspend the Republicans. Do you really believe this is due to more grannies spending 100 bucks individually? Please.

      The Democratic Party is simply supported by different industries and different interests with different rich people. They have slightly better spin for "progressives" because they're better at the bread and circuses.

      Both parties are rotten to the core. The Democrats are no more able to convince me that they are for the little guy or the "middle class" than I actually believe the Republicans are for the Moral Majority.

      They all work for lobbyists. Period. Some of that is our fault, but that fault is also a flaw in large democracies. You can control people by feeding them certain information that reinforces their existing views. The interests deliver the voting blocs, the rich fund the interests and the campaigns, and the voters do what they are expected to do. And this is 100% legitimate democracy. No actual corruption required.

      This is because the government is large, and getting larger. As it assumes more and more responsibility, it becomes more and more remote from the voter.

      Literally, the existence of successful lobbyists shows starkly how the government should be. Those interests succeed because they work on the model that the government *should* work on. They are specialized, they know their specific subject matter, and they know what laws they want passed. The only problem is that they are bought and paid for businesses, trusts and rich donors, they are not a responsible body. Instead of directly legislating, they have to now work to subvert the process of the existing legislature to get things done.

      Break up the government, elect people specifically based on the subjects that they have experience with and shrink the size of the electorate that each representative is responsible for. Turn special interests into groups that are representative, not of money, but of votes. After all, that's all they really do now anyway, only for hire.

      Democracy is a tactic to legitimize governments, its not a path to a "correct" answer. That's why it can ignore science and math to come to its answers. You want something to be done about global warming? Sure you may need to involve the government, but not for everything. Don't ask for the government to subsidize your pet interest, subsidize your interest yourself and demand that your special interest use its money for something other than buying politicians.

    118. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LOL! Yeah, that'll change things...

      The USA is a lost cause. The only possible futures it has are either as a totalitarian police state or revolution and starting over.

    119. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know I voted for Nader and I think I voted for Perot, splitting or no, I can't justify the risk of more Bush. No more Bush or Beta.

    120. Re:What are the practical results of this? by NoKaOi · · Score: 1

      Even when some ideological icon does run on his own (e.g. Ralph Nader)

      He might have been an ideological icon, but let's clarify one thing: He sure as fuck wasn't ideological about his platforms. He was the Green Party candidate and his platform was the environment, but he was pretty much one of the worst things politically to happen to the environment. If he had bowed out and endorsed Gore, Bush wouldn't have been president, simple as that. And no doubt he knew that (despite what he says publicly), because he's not dumb, so he just didn't give two shits about the environment. Or is somebody honestly going to try to tell me that more than half of the people who voted for him would have voted for Bush instead of Gore, especially in Florida where it would have decided the election?

      (in Nader's case, the Democrat party immediately started screaming "OMG you'll split the vote and then they will win!")

      Which is exactly what happened, despite Nader's denial. Regarding Florida, Nader himself says that "in the year 2000, exit polls reported that 25% of my voters would have voted for Bush, 38% would have voted for Gore and the rest would not have voted at all." Which means Gore would have netted 12,665 votes over Bush, which would have won him the election (Bush won FL by 537 votes). So either Nader is really bad at math, or he's a dirty liar.

    121. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 1

      What I wouldn't give for a quality centrist party that's willing to compromise and work out policy that meets somewhere in the middle rather than having notthing but weird fringe parties who are way off to the edge in one extreme or another.

      What are you complaining about? Obama is the best moderate Republican president to come along in years.

    122. Re:What are the practical results of this? by dj245 · · Score: 1

      What are you going to accomplish? Both parties in this country are bought and paid for by corporate interests so there's no way to change the status quo until that duopoly is broken up. And good luck getting Joe Sixpack to think beyond the bumper sticker slogans provided to him by the talking heads in the media (who are in the same pockets as the politicians).

      Would you have said the same thing about gay rights and legal marijuana 20 years ago? Political change takes time and a lot of effort. It helps a lot if a majority of people agree with you when you start, but that isn't a requirement.

      --
      Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
    123. Re: What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The chairman of the FCC is the nation's chief cable industry lobbyist. He was appointed to the position months after "Hollywood" Joe Biden went to the cable industry for campaign dollars and got them.

    124. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Subxerox · · Score: 1

      Warren? Isent she that fake indian? Who got preferential treatment in collage for being a fake indian?

    125. Re:What are the practical results of this? by DulcetTone · · Score: 1

      And... the terrible format of slashdot means that I can't tell who you are replying to

      --
      tone
    126. Re:What are the practical results of this? by DulcetTone · · Score: 1

      I think the counterargument to be made is that the Koch brothers are denying us our free speech rights. If THEIR argument is that money IS speech, our argument should be that we be given the same money so that we can all actually converse. If their argument is then that this is not so, we have to say that they've effectively muted us.

      --
      tone
    127. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Centrist = only 95% left. I have never met a centrist/moderate who doesn't believe in higher taxes, more regulation, and basically everything the Democrats want. Face it, you're a Democrat you just don't like being called a Democrat.

    128. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Practical Results:

      Obama will now be able to say 20% of America doesn't have access to broadband. Therefore we must spend a gazillion dollars to give the poor babies access. And if you disagree you're racist and hate children,

    129. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      These retards are diggin their own grave.

      Slashdotters seem to rail at network neutrality yet fight to the death to kill it by supporting its opposite: government regulation.

      Do they really think a company like comcast can survive in a free market? its preposterous.

      They have painted themselves into a corner with their limited intellects, road worship, and radical bias that somehow bureaucrats are less faillible than mere mortal humans.

    130. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is an IDIOT's argument. Or a shill's.

      What you're really saying behind all the handwaving is: let the foxes run the henhouse. A magical market fairy will make it all work out.

      Please, kid. Join the real world and open your eyes.

    131. Re:What are the practical results of this? by chriscappuccio · · Score: 1

      Quite the opposite, in fact, now Verizon can eventually likely get more funding to serve areas that are not profitable by themselves (or not profitable in a short enough time frame).

    132. Re: What are the practical results of this? by kenh · · Score: 1

      Kinda like when Sarah Palin said 'I can see Russia from my front porch?'

      Only, of course, she never said that - Tina Fey, pretending to be Sarah Palin on Saturday Night Live said it... Apparently the Left has a problem discerning comedy from news...

      --
      Ken
    133. Re: What are the practical results of this? by kenh · · Score: 1

      why does Gore get all the Nader votes? I have to believe a large percentage of Nader voters would not have seen anything they liked in either Bush or a Gore and would instead opt to stay home and not compromise by voting for the lesser of two evils...

      --
      Ken
    134. Re:What are the practical results of this? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      The problem is that both major parties are against such a change precisely because it threatens their dominance.

    135. Re:What are the practical results of this? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      You have very eloquently demonstrated how "if you don't vote for my bastard, the other bastard wins!" logic works to maintain the two-party system.

      So long as you keep voting for the lesser of two evils, you'll be stuck with evil. Worse yet, there isn't even a guarantee that it'll be the same level of evil - it may well be gradually worsening with every electoral cycle, and only be relatively better (as far as you're concerned) than the other option. So long as both slide down, the system stands.

    136. Re:What are the practical results of this? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Still better than sounding like a lawyer.

    137. Re:What are the practical results of this? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      You do realize that the Citizen's United case was specifically about a group of people trying to get around the "1 normal voter, 10 bucks" problem by aggregating many normal voters into many bucks, don't you?

      Except that is not a way to get around that problem. In the end, you still get several million voters, with their pooled dollars, competing against a single guy with his millions of dollars.

      And, ironically, even then, the single guy wins.

      You're also implying that that billionaire is actually buying votes with his $100 million. In truth, his one vote counts just the same as my one vote and your one vote and everyone else's one vote.

      His vote counts the same, yes. But by spending that money on, say, political advertising (including indirect one, such as most of the politicized tripe on Fox News or MSNBC), he effectively buys other people's votes by drowning out objective information in the channels that they have.

      And then on top of that he goes and buys the politicians that those people elect, rendering their votes pretty much meaningless, since the person they elected doesn't actually represent them anymore.

      Requiring ID is the obvious solution. The same kind of ID that every citizen of many other countries is required to carry to get government services of any kind, and even many private services.

      The reason why voter ID in US is contentious is not because it's somehow offensive or sacrilegious by itself, but because all implementations of it impose additional burdens on the voters that are either straight-up unconstitutional (e.g. non-free IDs, which is effectively a poll tax), or place the burden of obtaining the ID and proving one's identity for that purpose so high that many people are effectively disenfranchised, and that number is more than an order of magnitude higher than voting violations that IDs fix.

      In other countries it's generally not an issue because they have mandatory state-issued IDs for everyone, free, and the only thing that you need to do to obtain a new one is present the old one. In US, though, the same system would be immediately shot down, especially by conservatives, as government being too intrusive (ironic, given that pretty much everyone already has an SSN...).

      So it could be done, but the existing proposals are deficient, and better proposals that wouldn't be are non-viable for political reasons.

    138. Re:What are the practical results of this? by tsotha · · Score: 1

      The return of the "look how backward the US is nobody has broadband" argument for subsidies.

    139. Re: What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...and satirist Tina Fey based it on this Palin interview with ABC News: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Vote2008/story?id=5782924&page=2

      "GIBSON: What insight into Russian actions, particularly in the last couple of weeks, does the proximity of the state give you?

      PALIN: They're our next door neighbors and you can actually see Russia from land here in Alaska, from an island in Alaska."

    140. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And if Gore had won that election, this would have somehow magically been a good thing for the environment? If Gore and Bush had both lost, that would have almost certainly been the best thing for the environment. Ergo, Nader was right. The only thing Nader did wrong, was lose.

      Imagine if 51% of America had bothered to show up at the polls and vote Nader. But those people didn't do it. And here you are blaming Nader instead of them, saying he was the worst thing for the environment instead of admitting that we are. So Nader was wrong about one other thing too: he mistakenly thought people (including you) give a fuck.

    141. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      don't forget that unions also contribute way more than corporations

      Dumbfuckery. If unions gave more money than corps, Democrats and Republicans would be falling over each other in the rush to kiss union asses and put the shiv in the backs of corporations, rather than the other way around.

    142. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Uberbah · · Score: 2

      How do you propose unions help workers without getting political? Scott Walker, NCLB, ALEC, Wal-Mart, right-to-be-fired laws, privatization, NAFTA...and that's off the top of my head. All political issues.

    143. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      why does everyone always talk about the koch brothers

      Because they're anti-government fanatics who fund right wing media and climate change denial. Which puts them in a whole nother league than other rich scummy fucks like Bill Gates.

      when the facts are the dems get just as much money from their rich friends and their rich friends PACs?

      Because the Democrats whore themselves out as much as Republicans do.

      Any more dumb questions?

    144. Re:What are the practical results of this? by SkunkPussy · · Score: 1

      In the UK we have had majority governments formed from one of two parties for decades. At the last election (and almost certainly at the upcoming one) we had for the first time a coalition government where one of the main 2 parties had to team up with a minority party in order to form a government. This is a big improvement as by being forced to compromise with the minority party, the larger party has had to same some of its more extreme instincts.

      There is no reason it couldn't also happen in the USA. However if you convince yourself that it can never happen (and worse convince others that this is the case), then maybe it won't.

      --
      SURELY NOT!!!!!
    145. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      as long as it isn't called "broadband" they can call it whatever they want --- and in reality, not that many providers actually do... here it's "high speed internet" from both the telco and the cableco... the latter, of course, the only one now that can actually deliver "broadband" due to the higher capacity infrastructure vs pots. dsl tops out here at 15mbit, with 768k past 10k cable feet, and 1.5mbit-5mbit the average speed subscribed-tocloser-in; while cable's slowest offering is 30mbit (15mbit on docsis 2.0 and grandfathered plans that were never upgraded to faster speeds). cableco has monthly caps, telco doesn't.

    146. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Bengie · · Score: 1

      Plenty of companies are building out fiber networks in rural areas for a profit. They already have fiber to many farms in the area, which means they can also purchase a 250Mb/250Mb dedicated fiber connection for $200/m. According to the brochure, 250Mb is great for Web Hosting, Ecommerce, cloud computing, large remote back-ups, video streaming, and uninterrupted gaming. 10Gb is around the corner; Simple upgrade since the network is already fiber.

      That's right, start hosting the new NewEgg at a local farm with 250Mb of dedicated bandwidth to Level 3, the highest quality dedicated bandwidth in the world, for $200/month.

      Before you say government subsidies, the ISP has already stated that they have refused all government loans and grants and have built their fiber network entirely on their own dime. Not bad for a locally owned ISP in a small town with high unemployment.

    147. Re:What are the practical results of this? by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Then they need to STFU about it in the context of broadband service, which literally *could not exist* in any meaningful sense in an actual free market. Without the government forcing property owners to let them sink poles, run wires, etc.., a "free market" would require every provider to make contracts with the owner of every property between the central office and the endpoint -- good luck with that.

    148. Re:What are the practical results of this? by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Which totally doesn't apply to the corresponding set of idiots with their own Twue Bewiefs who claim to be on the "other side."

    149. Re:What are the practical results of this? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      On the other hand look at the UK. We used to have two parties (the Arseholes and the Bastards) and a small third one that never got in but always had a few people elected to parliament. Then last time around the two main ones balanced out so evenly that the smaller third one became king maker and formed a coalition with the Bastards.

      Now we have another contender, the Closet Racists, who are making waves. We have an election in May and it will be interesting to see how well they do. It's entirely possible they may end up in a coalition with some power. A decade ago no-one would have dreamed of all this, now it's a reality.

      Things can change, it's just not easy to engineer that change. In our case it was initially due to a very close election, and then due to grass roots support for the Closet Racists and a particularly charismatic/offensive leader. If you don't happen to be a Closet Racist don't worry, in other countries far left parties have got in too so it can go either way.

      Don't give up hope, it can happen.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    150. Re: What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nearly every citizen of every state has an identification card of some kind. A simple law stating that each state's Department of Motor Vehicles must provide an ID card would cover the rest. Or that welfare cards must have photos and citizenship status. Then dye each person's thumb on election day.

    151. Re: What are the practical results of this? by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      there are more "rich" democrats in congress than republican. The links ive provided show that dems are bringing in more money from "the rich" as well.

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    152. Re:What are the practical results of this? by grimmjeeper · · Score: 1

      The difference is that there are viable minority parties in the UK. That's not the case in the US. The two party system is so heavily entrenched here it would really take a miracle to break through. The propaganda in this country has everyone convinced that they need to make sure the "other party" doesn't take power and has people utterly convinced that they only have two choices.

      The only thing that's going to break that is a fundamental changing of the average mind. And breaking through the deluge of propaganda being spewed by the "news" networks is a herculean task, considering how well financed they are.

    153. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Dubious+Maximus · · Score: 1

      You're forgetting about 1968 (yes, some of us are old enough to remember 1968), when George Wallace (American Independent Party), actually carried 5 states to the tune of 46 Electoral Votes, far eclipsing Perot's (who I voted for) percentage in 1992.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U...

      Now, Wallace was a lunatic, granted, but, it can happen. It has happened. It just needs to happen again.

    154. Re:What are the practical results of this? by mradabaugh · · Score: 1

      #1) It creates an artificial crisis by changing the definition. Now there is a 'problem' that must be solved. #2) The FCC is only authorized to intervene in the market by determining broadband is not "being deployed to all Americans in a reasonable and timely fashion". The FCC now has the excuse to do whatever they want. #3) CAF II money is being release shortly - $10,800,000,000 to the incumbent telephone carriers to build 10/1Mb service, a minimal hurdle most will meet by changing the service plan from 10M/768k up to 10M/1M and pocketing 10.8M. #4) Solve the 'crisis' by creating CAF III by collecting and distributing way more than the 10.8 billion pittance they just wasted. Think I'm making this up? Just read Commissioner Pai's response: http://www.fcc.gov/article/doc...

    155. Re:What are the practical results of this? by lsatenstein · · Score: 1

      What are the practical results of this?

      The companies now cannot gouge fees from you for ordinary speeds while your billing states Broadband. It also officializes the definition.

      Wakeup guys, The Verizons, Comcasts, AT&T, Sprint, etc etc. now have to upgrade their services or reduce their billing charges.

      --
      Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
    156. Re:What are the practical results of this? by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      have you ever worked in a union? while this is true, most of them make it hard as heck to jump through the hoops needed to jump through to ensure none of your dues are used towards political campaigns.

      Yes, I worked in a union shop. I didn't join, but I seem to recall that being one of the checkboxes on the paperwork you had to fill out whether you joined or not, along with the option to opt out of the union and pay "fair share" fees.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    157. Re:What are the practical results of this? by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      Not every solution has to be at a Federal level. Local politics (for example, campaign locally to bring in Google Fiber) can be much more rewarding.

    158. Re:What are the practical results of this? by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      People mention the Kochs because they do a lot more than just donate money. They organize an extensive network of donations, as well as do real political activism. For instance, they payed for buses in order to bring more people to tea party rallies. They also do interviews with the news quite often and speak very candidly about their political views.

      In short, they are basically the "poster child" of rich people attempting to influence politics. You'd think they have no other hobbies.

    159. Re: What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      why does Gore get all the Nader votes? I have to believe a large percentage of Nader voters would not have seen anything they liked in either Bush or a Gore and would instead opt to stay home and not compromise by voting for the lesser of two evils...

      Did you not read the comment you replied to, or is reading comprehension just not your strong suit?

      • 25% would have voted Bush
      • 38% would have voted Gore
      • the rest would not have voted at all (37% is a rather large percentage)
    160. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      to confuse the issue.

      they also changed the definition of how to count who has health insurance to further political goals as well - that one didn't get much coverage.

    161. Re: What are the practical results of this? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Nearly every citizen of every state has an identification card of some kind. A simple law stating that each state's Department of Motor Vehicles must provide an ID card would cover the rest. Or that welfare cards must have photos and citizenship status.

      Yes, it would. But then conservatives would be all up in arms about the evil gubmint forcing them to have IDs, which, as we all know, is a hallmark of totalitarian regimes and therefore will never fly in the good old U.S. of A.

    162. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Face it, you're a fascist you just don't like being called a fascist.

    163. Re: What are the practical results of this? by jmac_the_man · · Score: 1
      That quote is very much out of context, AND it doesn't support your point.

      First off, Alaska is the largest state (by surface area) in the union. Nothing is simultaneously visible from ground level at Wasilla and ground level at whichever Aleutian island is closest to Russia. So visible from an Aleutian island != visible from Sarah Palin's house.

      Secondly, you'll notice that Gibson is asking specifically about why the proximity between Russia and Alaska is significant. That's because Palin brought up the proximity factor before this quote started. After you cut her off, she goes on to explain that the Governor of Alaska gets a security briefing about what Russia is up to every day from the Federal Government. The reason for that is that a missile attack from Russia will probably travel through Alaskan airspace, and some of the people who man anti-missile defenses in Alaska are the Alaska National Guard. The reason the paths of the missiles would travel through Alaska is because of how close Alaska and Russia are.

      Fey's sketch had a Hillary Clinton impersonator (Amy Poehler, maybe?) "congratulating" Fey's Palin on the VP nomination. "Clinton" was saying how great it would be for feminists to have a female vice president, while hinting that Clinton should have been picked for VP. "Clinton" claimed her credentials included a vast knowledge of international affairs (I have no idea what this refers to, as in 2008 she wasn't Secretary of State yet), and "Palin" responded "I can see Russia from my house."

      Fey took a small part of a much larger explanation, and changed it to make Palin look like an idiot. Fey then gave interviews where she talked about all the research she did into her Palin impression and referenced that interview. Way too many people think "I can see Russia from my house" is an actual Palin quote. The reason people think this is because, sometimes Democrats lie about what their political opponents say.

    164. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It saddens me to admit it, but parent is right. And "top two" elections will only make it worse.

    165. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm in Manhattan's Washington Heights with Verizon DSL. Where I'm originally from, people's 'cable' internet has normally been consumed at sub mb levels with silly limitations and probably bad oversharing and capping, and smartphones and wifi are just starting to clog home connections. I'm not a demanding tech person, and most US people get gouged for speeds they rarely top, past the 10mb - 20mb marks sites can't deliver dedicated speeds to just you.
      In this Manhattan building I was happy with Verizon's 1.5mb/128k in 2007. An upgrade to 3mb came because it was 5 to 10 more dollars per month. There are days when we're both watching videos (thankfully spanish youtube content NEVER has HD programming, so my anime isn't too much burdened usually). When it is, I have to leave my show on pause at the intro and go read tvtropes to kill time. Even with nobody else at home the speeds for VPN + VoIP for work-from-home shifts causes callers to always say that I break up badly. If you can live without HD video or work, and block ad hosts (noscript, ddwrt+hostfiles), 3mb is enough, but I have the nagging need to upgrade sometimes.

      Anyway, higher speed tiers for Verizon tiers are unavailable here, in the most important borough of the capital of the world, New York!. Doubling from 3 to 6mb would fix my 720p HD buffering issues, but VZ doesn't feel full New York coverage is special, even though this is NOT the sticks. I live 5 blocks away from the CO, and it was sad when I confirmed via chat that no upgrades are planned here. I'm going to check the menus after posting this, but as much as I hate the concept of all-in-one from the only competitor here, they actually did have a tech drill some new wiring into our giant apartment building. The guy actually said higher speeds required new wiring, and it actually fixed my digital noise problems whenever the dangling wires would sway in storm/blizzard winds.

      It is tempting to add internet to our current TimeWarner package just to get the speed boost VZ has denied us. I would also gain ipv6 in the process, which Verizon has been using it as a 50mb/fiber-only incentive.

    166. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm going to check the menus after posting this, but as much as I hate the concept of all-in-one from the only competitor here, they actually did have a tech drill some new wiring into our giant apartment building. The guy actually said higher speeds required new wiring, and it actually fixed my digital noise problems whenever the dangling wires would sway in storm/blizzard winds.

      Parent here.
      I didn't make it clear that the tech is from Time Warner, which we already have providing cable-only while Verizon gives us telephone service. The drilling was not optional. The weird points are that
      1) the cable guys did it to [potentially] deliver fiber-like internet speeds that would compete against Verizon in theory. Incidentally, Verizon doesn't offer fiber in this building anyway. Thus the upgrade is not a competitive-advantage thing, because there is *NO COMPETITION* for those speeds.
      2) the phone wiring has probably not been upgraded in decades, even though cutting the phone cord became a thing only about 10 years ago. VZ's inaction means that anyone wanting modern internet service just switches off their copper line. I do not know anyone else on DSL, and am thinking VZ is doing losing customers on purpose

    167. Re:What are the practical results of this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe you can't buy much with money, but you get a vote just the same as them. If you want to change things, you can always try to convince people by talking to them. Run a good blog, do some sort of neat analysis. It won't necessarily equal what they can do, but the defeatist attitude won't solve anything.

  2. Still not good enough. by AltGrendel · · Score: 4, Funny

    The Swedes and South Koreans laugh at our puny attempts to catch up.

    --
    The simple truth is that interstellar distances will not fit into the human imagination

    - Douglas Adams

    1. Re:Still not good enough. by Tablizer · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It is true those countries are more compact, making economies of scale easier, BUT even well-populated areas of the US still have limited, unreliable, and gimmick-heavy choices. I'm one. Thus, population density is not the full reason. We are doing something wrong in the US.

      It looks and smells like oligopoly-based crony-capitalism controlling the strings, but you are welcome to present alternative explanations.

    2. Re:Still not good enough. by jellomizer · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      Don't forget the normal voter who just doesn't want to have more taxes. Even if it means that they will pay more for Internet service.

      Americans in general, have a distrust of the government. And prefer to have more personal power even if that means they are putting themselves in a disadvantage. But that way it is their mistake in their lives not someone elses.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    3. Re:Still not good enough. by Penguinisto · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Ask these questions:

      How much competition is allowed for providing Internet access in any given US locale?

      Why can we not have municipalities plant/string and own the local fiber/cable/POTS lines, then rent them out to competing ISPs for residential access purposes (see also Utah's UTOPIA initiative)?

      Find the answers to those questions, and you'll find the root cause of the non-logistics problems that broadband faces in the US.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    4. Re:Still not good enough. by fustakrakich · · Score: 2

      It looks and smells like oligopoly-based crony-capitalism controlling the strings...

      All brought on by voters that won't kick out corrupt politicians. *We built this city.* Now we have to live with it or fix it. The choice is ours.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    5. Re:Still not good enough. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      One of the things we're doing wrong, as has been discussed to death on Slashdot, is municipalities striking exclusive deals with a single cable and internet provider, preventing any competition from entering the market. Franchise fees are another example of what we're doing wrong; they're often prohibitively expensive and are effectively the same as an exclusive agreement. Other places limit access to utility poles to their one chosen, favored provider.

      Competition works. Lower prices, better products, happier consumers.

    6. Re:Still not good enough. by itzly · · Score: 1

      How is it your own mistake if you can't get decent internet ?

    7. Re:Still not good enough. by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      Most voters don't know the difference. They don't know what they are missing in order to get a "smaller gov't". They hear the oligopoly viewpoint because the oligopolies pay a lot of money to get their view out there and to get politicians to mirror their view.

    8. Re:Still not good enough. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      They have very good reason to fear big government, history has shown over and over and over again that big government is very bad.

    9. Re:Still not good enough. by Tablizer · · Score: 2

      What conservatives often fail to grasp is that "less government" and "more competition" are sometimes at odds. We need referees to enforce a competitive environment. It's too easy for big co's to buy away competition. We want them using their resources to make better & cheaper mousetraps, not to keep out other mousetrap makers.

    10. Re:Still not good enough. by Sir+Holo · · Score: 1

      It is true those countries are more compact, making economies of scale easier, BUT even well-populated areas of the US

      Don't blame it on that. I've lived in Chicago (in the same building that housed all the routers and fiber), as well as LA, DC, and other large metros.

      Even in Chicago, I could not get a reasonable 'broad-band' speed.

      (If you don't believe me, it's 732 S. Federal St. in Chicago that hosts all the fiber and electronic broadband. Look it up.)

    11. Re:Still not good enough. by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 5, Funny

      If you vote for people who promise to fight for your "freedom" by blocking "burdensome government regulations" that might someday prevent you from throttling off your customers once you form that telecommunications monopoly you've been dreaming of ever since your mom sent you to school wearing bread bags on your feet, then yeah, it is your fault.

    12. Re:Still not good enough. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They have very good reason to fear big government, history has shown over and over and over again that big government is very bad.

      Big government is just a buzz word now. No one is fighting for it, they just say they are to one ear, and fighting for it from the hands that pay them. If they want smaller governments, they should start with civil rights and stop trying to pass laws (i.e. same sex marriage) that limit choices of the citizens. That goes directly against what they say they want.

      Instead of fighting for more parties in politics, I'd be happy to see the chaos of public popularity determining office, so in the last election cycle, Obama would have been President, Romney would be the Vice, and I guess Gary Johnson would be the Secretary of State since I don't remember any other candidate. Better than them selecting their own, make advisers elected officials. T'would be fun.

    13. Re:Still not good enough. by blackraven14250 · · Score: 2

      It really is due to municipalities and states in the US. South Korea is so far ahead because there's a bunch of choices - 4 major ISPs, plus 2 of their major cell operators are both rolling out LTE-A at 300mbps, which is entirely a viable option instead of the land-based ISPs. In the US, the federal government hasn't rectified the problem that states and local governments are causing with their exclusivity deals and blocks against municipal broadband, but it's not entering into those agreements for the locals either. The federal government is allowing the problem to persist, at least to some degree - I don't know how well they'd be able to argue for striking down local laws like this, even if there was a will to do it. Net neutrality is much easier for the federal government to get involved in than how states deploy the infrastructure.

    14. Re:Still not good enough. by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      history has shown over and over and over again that big government is very bad.

      Too much of anything is bad. Some water is good for you, too much and you drown. Some big company influence is good for us; but too much and we get corporate fascism and/or corporate communism (which may degenerate to regular communism).

      The slippery-slope fallacy can be used to justify any position.

      Overly-influential banks already had a big hand in crashing the world economy recently and almost got us into another Great Depression. (True, gov't mistakes contributed to it, but run-away greed was the main cause.) I thank Big Gov't for having prevented another Great Depression...in this case.

    15. Re:Still not good enough. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are correct, we need to enforce a competitive market. The things listed above should, ideally, go away since they're anti-competitive.

    16. Re:Still not good enough. by riskkeyesq · · Score: 1

      They have very good reason to fear big government, history has shown over and over and over again that big government is very bad.

      citation needed

    17. Re:Still not good enough. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Money in politics.

    18. Re:Still not good enough. by nobuddy · · Score: 1

      Then why do those that claim big government is bad keep expanding it?
      The government only shrinks under those who do not make these claims. it only grows under those who do make these claims.

    19. Re:Still not good enough. by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Or, you can realize that Broadband is as simple as building out a new Fiber infrastructure, replacing Cable, using the model I've suggested.

      Municipalities build out the infrastructure using one time Bond money, building a CO-LO facility and auction space to CONTENT and INTERNET providers. All last mile connections terminate in the CO-LO and a network technician processes connection requests from customers, "I want Time-Warner" or "I want Comcast", or "I want Google", who then patches customer to provider.

      The cable is not owned by any single vendor, and there is competition for customers individually. No need for any regulation, and market forces will lower costs to the end user. AND things like the Comcast/Netflix argument simply disappears.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    20. Re:Still not good enough. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmm, I wonder why the current goverment regulations don't address this issue? I continually see pleas for more tax revenue, but we already give them quite a bit as it is. How about we start asking what we're getting in return and if it's worth what we're spending on it?

      I mean that's what you'd do if this was your business, but for some reason when we start talking about taxes we act like there's no control and the only solution is to give them more money.

    21. Re:Still not good enough. by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Here are a couple differences between drinking too much water and too big of government: 1) the number of affected people (one vs Millions), 2) You have to try to drink too much water vs natural progression of governance.

      Slippery Slope is a logical fallacy not because it isn't true, it is a logical fallacy because it isn't always true; sometimes is not good enough in logic. The question is, have you seen government that has grown too big?

      Here are a few acronyms that most citizens hate: IRS, NSA, CIA, DHS ....

      Lastly, is there anyone that can seriously argue that government is not big enough?

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    22. Re:Still not good enough. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No, it is not true that those countries are more compact. Sweden has a lower population density than the US.

    23. Re:Still not good enough. by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but voters are getting big government anyway! It's just that it's the even worse kind of big government -- the kind that spends all its money unaccountably on the military-industrial complex (and increasingly, the prison-industrial complex) instead of providing services to constituents.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    24. Re:Still not good enough. by blackraven14250 · · Score: 2

      Why do you think that being for expansion in one area means you're for expansion in all areas? Clearly, government needs to do more to promote competition in the ISP business, and just as clearly, government is overreaching with the TSA and spy agencies, which need to be more limited. It's no so simple to say "fuck big government" or "let's expand government", either of which is such an extraordinary simplification of the fact that it blows me away that people take either side seriously.

      BTW, people will hate the IRS regardless as to whether they grow, shrink, or just stay the same size, so they're pretty much irrelevant to whether you hate the size of government as long as it exists. Don't; forget, the early history of the US was rife with infighting over taxes.

    25. Re:Still not good enough. by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 2

      Is Google Fiber even allowed access to the utility poles used by AT&T and Comcast? I remember AT&T arguing successfully last year that Google is not legally "a telecom or cable provider" and preventing it from hanging fiber on the existing pole infrastructure.

    26. Re:Still not good enough. by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      The government always grows. It just grows in different areas under each side of the political coin.

      The budget tends to shrink under Repubs, and grow under the Dems, this is for various reasons, but mostly the Dems saying they have to take from the rich and give to the poor causes larger tax income and corresponding larger outlays. The Repubs tend to try to reduce budget and taxes, causing smaller government overall, usually at the expense of social programs which they feel is an unfair redistribution of wealth.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    27. Re:Still not good enough. by LessThanObvious · · Score: 1

      Though my already costly 15 Mbps down/ 4Mbps up no longer qualifies as broadband I don't see where I would get much benefit from having more for any normal usage. I think the same would be true for most people. I agree many in the US would benefit from having more than what they have got, but those are mostly the folks with less than 5Mbps or businesses in areas where the only options are inadequate. Access in rural areas and basic affordable access at 3-5Mbps for lower income households are greater issues in my mind. When we treat resources like they are limitless it generally ends up creating wasteful behavior.

    28. Re:Still not good enough. by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      You can't buy away competition without big government collusion.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    29. Re:Still not good enough. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The budget tends to run deficits under GOP governance, which Democrats then have to fix during their time in office.

      It's a rather neat, if (as usual) utterly dispicable political strategy on the part of the GOP....

    30. Re:Still not good enough. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, those big government hellholes of Scandinavia certainly are grinding their citizenry into the dust.

    31. Re:Still not good enough. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In a small area of England, it's exactly the same; Kingston upon Hull area has hardly any choice of broadband supplier thanks to the local telco not willing to open its lines to competitors like BT do. As such, by having a BT line, you can have access to 100 or so different ISPs. In Hull however, you either have the monopoly provide you or you go 4G or go with wireless internet

      OFCOM have 0% interest in enforcing their obligation in Hull.

    32. Re: Still not good enough. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lastly, is there anyone that can seriously argue that government is not big enough?

      Quite a few, I suspect. Anybody not getting the services they desire due to cost cutting or not being protected due to lack of inspections or oversight.

      In the case of the US, I would argue that the House of Representatives is far too small. At best, it is 100 members short going by the size of the smallest entity (see the Wyoming Rule) and in terms of representing the people fairly it could be short by thousands. I have nothing against the people of North Foo County, but I would like to have somebody from at least an adjacent county to reach. But I don't even get that. Why? Fixed apportionment.

    33. Re:Still not good enough. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Government could do more to promote ISP competition by rolling back the monopolies they created. They would do more by doing less.

    34. Re:Still not good enough. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Feds have no authority to strike this down and we are lucky for that. If the feds had control over this we would pay $100 billion for two miles of fibre and Obama's buddies would pocket $99 billion +. The problem is at the county/municipal level and this is where voters actually CAN have influence - if they give enough of a shit.

    35. Re:Still not good enough. by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Google Fiber is still Google Fiber. I'm talking about municipality owned infrastructure. City of ______ Fiber, owned, operated and maintained by the municipality, with the fiber being terminated in a CO-LO facility, where you could get Google, Time-Warner, Comcast, DirectTV, or whatever other options were available.

      The issue is removing last mile ownership by a commercial enterprise.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    36. Re:Still not good enough. by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Why do you think that being for expansion in one area means you're for expansion in all areas?

      Because (D) wants expansion in area 1, but not area 2. They get expansion in area 1.

      Next election, (R) wins and wants to expand in area 2, and they expand in area 2.

      Wash, rinse, repeat. And if anyone proposes to cut Area 1 or 2, they are accused of "Tossing grandma off a cliff" or "Not caring about security" or "hating children" or "killing kittens and puppies"

      The result is the same.

      As for ISP, the problem is limited last mile options. Nothing more, nothing less. By removing the last mile from the equation, from "Comcast Franchise agreement" to Municipally owned infrastructure, we'd be pushing competition away from last mile to a CO-LO, and actually be able to increase competition, without increasing regulations.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    37. Re:Still not good enough. by s.petry · · Score: 1

      The history of Germany, France, England, Spain, Russia, Cambodia, China, Korea, Rome, Athens, Egypt, and that list could go on and on. In other words, it's not possible to provide a citation for basically the complete history of the world since the advent of Governments.

      Surely we could nitpick about all of the various problems Governments have caused, but that big government leads to the ends of societies is not questionable with even a cursory understanding of History.

      Oh, and before you try it.. Revolts that lead in restructuring a government (and beheading of old rulers) that retain the name does not imply that those governments are still the same.

      --

      -The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.

    38. Re: Still not good enough. by sonicmerlin · · Score: 1

      Exclusive franchise agreements were outlawed in the freaking 90s. Infrastructure markets always develop into natural monopolies because of the insurmountable capital required to just enter the market. It has nothing to do with the fracking government,

      This is basic economics 101.

    39. Re: Still not good enough. by sonicmerlin · · Score: 1

      Is this a joke? The budget hasn't shrunk under Republicans since Reagan ran up trillions of dollars in deficits. That was 30 years ago. How long does it take for you idiots to learn some basic US history?

    40. Re:Still not good enough. by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 1

      Municipality owned infrastructure would be nice but sounds too socialist / Marxist / atheist / Communist / etc. for some people. There are 19 states where it has been outlawed, since "the internet should not operate at the speed of government" or something.

    41. Re:Still not good enough. by Bengie · · Score: 1

      Too big of government is about as bad as too small. There are different levels of government. My local government is still very small, they're the ones that would be running muni-fiber.

    42. Re:Still not good enough. by a_n_d_e_r_s · · Score: 1

      It's actually the other way around. It mostly shrink under Democrats and increase with Republicans.

      The reason for that is that Republicans always expand the military spending - and they are usually very expensive.

      --
      Just saying it like it are.
    43. Re: Still not good enough. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The wording was to much water and you drown, it didn't specify trying to drink it. Most people who drown are trying not to drink the water, and would probably get out.

      Why can't they? Floods, fatigue, other injury, it really doesn't involve drinking the water very much. More like inhaling.

    44. Re:Still not good enough. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is true those countries are more compact

      No, it is not true. The United States is quite a bit more densely populated than Sweden. It is true of South Korea.

    45. Re:Still not good enough. by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      Here are a few acronyms that most citizens hate: IRS, NSA, CIA, DHS ....

      I hate dental visits also, but I still go. And citizens generally prefer "protection" from foreign threats. Whether it's all warranted or not is highly debatable. DHS wouldn't exist if not for the 911 attacks. The pendulum of public opinion on such seems to swing back and forth, depending on attacks.

    46. Re:Still not good enough. by Uberbah · · Score: 1

      That's an impressive amount of Randian fail, crammed into just 9 words.

    47. Re:Still not good enough. by lars_stefan_axelsson · · Score: 1

      It is true those countries [Sweden and South Korea] are more compact...

      Not when it comes to Sweden, no. We're roughly the size and shape of California (we're 10% larger) and have 9 million people. True, our population density is varied, most people live in the southern most 1/5 of the country, but even comparing to California, they have huge swaths which much higher population density than the densest Swedish hotspots.

      And even so, the people in Northern Sweden often have better access to fibre, as it's cheaper to dig and they organize fibre coops with substantial local government involvement (having good access to fibre is seen as a way to attempt to remove at least one reason for young people to move away; we are still in the process of urbanisation).

      The most successful model here is open networks, the coop/city/power company/whatever (even the old telecoms monopoly company) lay and run the physical fibre and equipment and then ISPs are more or less free to offer services on that network (for a fee, typically 10%-15% of your montly fee). I for example, pay about $40 for 100 Mbps symmetrical, including IP-telephony and cable TV (very basic package).

      --
      Stefan Axelsson
  3. That doesn't sound bad by Noughmad · · Score: 1

    So, if I get this right, 80% of the US Americans have at least 25MB/s download. This is not really that bad, I have a fiber connection but only subscribe to 20/20 (for 30eur/month) because it's good enough for pretty much anything. From the complaints I hear on Slashot I thought only Google offered more than something like 5MB/s.

    --
    PlusFive Slashdot reader for Android. Can post comments.
    1. Re:That doesn't sound bad by zlives · · Score: 4, Informative

      problem is typically there is only one provider offering this, cable, utilities have been sitting on their asses enjoying govt subsidies at 4 mb/download without working to improve the speed. there is no competition in US, the home of the free market.

    2. Re:That doesn't sound bad by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 2

      One of the problems is that if ONE customer in the area gets broadband speeds, the whole area is classified as having broadband.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    3. Re:That doesn't sound bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      25MB/s would be ~250Mbps. Your units are wrong.

    4. Re:That doesn't sound bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You got it wrong. Almost 87% have access to 25Mbps or more--typically only through the local cable television monopoly. They'd have to pay the ridiculous monopoly rates for that, and many don't.
      I recently bit the bullet and subscribed to 12Mbps DSL through my local telephone monopoly. I had previously had the same ISP since 2000, through two moves and a change from dial-up to DSL, but the telco wouldn't allow them to provide anything faster than 1.5Mbps.

    5. Re:That doesn't sound bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Close, 80% Can have broadband. They may not actually have it. $70/mo may not be acceptable and there is no choice in most markets.

    6. Re:That doesn't sound bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Many of these ISPs "offer" a faster service... but only to businesses*. Even then, they don't actually like to follow through with it. And they charge absurd rates. Comcast wanted to charge $240/month for 50Mbit to a friend of mine, and still denied him because he wasn't operating a business. Even the local business owners around here can't seem to actually convince their ISPs to actually provide it.

      In short, the 80% thing is very misleading. They can theoretically provide the service, but don't.

      *They leave this little detail out, until you actually try to get this service.

    7. Re:That doesn't sound bad by Orestesx · · Score: 4, Informative

      So, if I get this right, 80% of the US Americans have at least 25MB/s download.

      No. 80% of Americans HAVE ACCCESS TO 25 Mb download. As in they have the option to subscribe to. They may not be able to afford it, or they may choose not to subscribe, or they may be choosing to subscribe to a lower tier.

    8. Re:That doesn't sound bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, if I get this right, 80% of the US Americans have at least 25MB/s download. This is not really that bad, I have a fiber connection but only subscribe to 20/20 (for 30eur/month) because it's good enough for pretty much anything. From the complaints I hear on Slashot I thought only Google offered more than something like 5MB/s.

      Not exactly. It means that 80ish % of Americans could get 25 Mb/s (not MB/s) at their home address. It does not mean that 80% actually have subscribed to such service.

      And those are peak speeds, not guaranteed speeds. I subscribe to 25 Mb/s service, but sometimes see that drop by half or more during peak periods such as early evening.

    9. Re:That doesn't sound bad by bws111 · · Score: 1

      It is important to notice the difference between having 'access to' 25Mb/s download and having 25Mb/s download. I have 'access' to 100Mb/s download, but I do not see the need for it or wish to pay for it, so I only have 15Mb/s download.

      It would be interesting to see how many people actually have 25Mb/s download.

    10. Re:That doesn't sound bad by ArcadeMan · · Score: 1

      We're talking about megabits per second here, not download speeds in megabytes per second.

    11. Re:That doesn't sound bad by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      So 87% of Americans have Microsoft Access. Thanks for clearing that up :-)

      Technically 100% of Americans have potential broadband access; it would just cost an arm and leg to get it in many places. For example, a billionaire may have high-speed satellite connections if their mansion is in a remote area. Having access is not a "Boolean value".

      If one wants a practical formal definition of "having access to broadband", then one may have to apply a price threshold.

    12. Re:That doesn't sound bad by Noughmad · · Score: 1

      True, sorry about that, replace B with b everywhere.

      --
      PlusFive Slashdot reader for Android. Can post comments.
    13. Re:That doesn't sound bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I do have 25Mb/s link but my downloads are about 6Mb/s or less. Still, 3Mb/s upload is what everyone should be sad about.

    14. Re:That doesn't sound bad by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      Well, what does "get" mean? Has purchased? As in nobody wants to pay for faster service? Or can obtain, as in everybody else is too far from the nearest DSLAM? I would expect to see the lowest speeds in the most economically depressed areas simply because people have other priorities. Although I'm all for removing various tiers of service. Gigabit for all, I say!

    15. Re:That doesn't sound bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I posted on here myself, but I only am getting about 3Mb/down on my "5Mb" connection. They offer 7Mb down via FairPoint (im in VT) but there's no way I can support that as I'm so far away from the CO.

      They need fiber rolled out here in VT.. due to distances, it's probably the only logical way we could get decent speeds out here in the boonies.

    16. Re:That doesn't sound bad by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      I have 20 mb/s down, 2 up. So I just lost my broadband. Just a little boost is required for TWC to keep me in the broadband category. Of course, they'll find a way to charge me more for it as well.

    17. Re:That doesn't sound bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cynisism noted. However, Americans should understand that like most enlightened philosophy, Americans did not invent free markets nor implement the best models. Neither did these guys, but no American better fits this list until 1963: Cantillon (Irish, 1680-1734), Turgot (French, 1727-1781), Adam Smith (Scottish, 1723-1790), Say (French, 1767-1832), Ricardo (English, 1772-1823), Bastiat (French, 1801-1850), Hayek (Austrian, 1899-1992).

    18. Re:That doesn't sound bad by bigfinger76 · · Score: 1

      You mean 200Mbps.

    19. Re:That doesn't sound bad by nobuddy · · Score: 1

      They sell up to 25mb/s. the network can handle up to 25mb/s. The reality is that they cannot sustain it.
      "The FCC wants to test our lines. Kick everyone off and remove all the throttles. test complete? We barely passed? Sweet! no upgrades this year. Let the users back on!"

      Reality is, you get dialup speeds at prime time, and little better than 1mb/s the rest of the time.

    20. Re:That doesn't sound bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most Americans have 4-8Mbps connections to the internet. Half of America though lives in the middle of nowhere. In towns and cities speeds can get up to 25Mbps. You can get at least 10Mbps in most areas of most towns and cities and even surrounding areas.

      There are some companies like Comcast that advertise faster 75Mbps-100Mbps, but its a fraud. The lines are shared so your speed depends on other peoples use of the line in your area. They then play tricks on you so you think your getting those speeds. They have “burst” speeds which give you those advertised speeds for a few seconds before reducing them for example. They'll also give you faster speeds to select servers which are used for testing the speed of your internet connection. Then in reality they go and pull stunts like injecting disconnect packets for protocols they don't like which can be used for things that utilize the advertised bandwidth. For instance Comcast was inserting disconnect packets for Torrents for a while. Comcast also ensured that customers couldn't access other internet providers at the advertised speeds. For example customers have experienced issues streaming video from Netflix servers. When you have been advertised 100mbps and can't sustain an 8mbps connection it just goes to show you why so many people prefer ADSL over cable and particularly Comcast. I for instance subscribe to ADSL at 10Mbps and never have any trouble streaming content or downloading torrents.

    21. Re:That doesn't sound bad by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      I'd raise the question of price. Just because you have a 25 Mbps option doesn't mean it is priced in an affordable fashion. If your local ISP offers 25 Mbps a month for $300 a month it is available but not affordable. I'm not saying that it needs to be extremely inexpensive, but merely rolling out an "option" and then pricing it such that you know you'll rarely need to deploy it shouldn't give the ISPs the right to claim all of those users have this as an option.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    22. Re:That doesn't sound bad by MMC+Monster · · Score: 2

      Yes. I have the option to buy a 25BM/s line. The price is ridiculously high, however.

      Residents in my neighborhood shouldn't be considered as having broadband since just about no one pays that much for internet (except my one neighbor who works in IT from home, and he deducts it as a business expense).

      --
      Help! I'm a slashdot refugee.
    23. Re:That doesn't sound bad by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 1

      The complaints you hear on Slashdot are mostly from people paying with dollars, not Euros.

    24. Re:That doesn't sound bad by Fwipp · · Score: 1

      There are a rare few companies that actually deliver that 100Mbps they advertise. I'm lucky enough to be using one of them (CondoInternet, $60/month) - I ran one of them speed tests just the other day, and was getting 96 Mbps (over wi-fi, even). So much better than the ~2Mbps I used to get for $45/month from Verizon DSL (which was still better than Comcast offered).

    25. Re:That doesn't sound bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      VTel is my hero here in southern VT and one of the few reasons I'm not chomping at the bit (no pun intended) to move to a "civilized" area. I get 200 down and 700 up during daylight outs. Late at time I've been able to saturate 900/900 to Boston which is where their trunk connects according to the rest of the world.

    26. Re:That doesn't sound bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm paying $70 a month for 30 Mbps. There's a smaller ISP across town that offers 75 Mbps for $50. That's the fucked up part. Since the ISP can't build out to my neighborhood, I'm paying 1.5x as much for 2.5x less(approximately). My choices are:

      AT&T UVerse: tops out at 6 Mbps. This is far too slow. It *might* suffice for one Netflix connection. Certainly not 2 or more, especially at peak hours.
      Satellite internet: Might provide fast speed, but has high latency and usually has a freakishly small bandwidth cap(I use ~270 GB per month...last I checked their cap was 25 GB a month...I'd cap out in just a few days easily)
      Time Warner Cable: My only reasonable option, and I'm paying out the ass for shit service. I'm in a brand new neighborhood(under development for about 5 years now) and while they COULD have rolled out fiber here pretty easily, they chose to bring out copper instead.

      I don't live in rural America. I live in a city of 250,000, and this lack of options is ridiculous. My choices are shit speed, shit latency, or shit cost. Not 10 miles away I could have high speed, low latency, and low(er) cost.

    27. Re:That doesn't sound bad by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      I have 75/75 from FiOS in the suburbs of Baltimore, and ONLY pay $90/mo for it.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    28. Re:That doesn't sound bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And the numbers reported often exaggerate actual service. Sure I could have "broadband" so I'm counted even though if I tried paying for it nobody exists to take my money.

    29. Re:That doesn't sound bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      30 EUR has about a 1:1 conversion to USD right now.

      I have 30 up, 3 down and pay $80 per month, and I'm one of the fortunate ones that has the choice between WOW or TWC for that level (Verizon doesn't offer FIOS here, so their service is limited to 4Mb/s, and AT&T's Uverse connection here is unusably shoddy).

      Do you see the rest of the problem here, now? (Hint: availability of a given speed isn't the whole picture.)

    30. Re:That doesn't sound bad by CAOgdin · · Score: 1

      It means, simply, that adoption of broadband is measured by Census Tract. If an ISP or other provider services ONE customer in that Census Tract, they report the ENTIRE Census Tract as served. When challenged by government, the Telcos respond, disingenuously, that "Well, the rest of the people haven't ordered yet." But, they get full credit for all those doorsteps that are unserved because, according to them, those people at that doorstep haven't asked for service. Of course, if you're one of those putative customers, you'll quickly discover that calling that provider just gets you the standard, "We don't service that address, yet." The implication is that you WILL get service, someday, depending on what the executives of the Telco decide: "Do I want to line my own pockets with more bonuses for profitability, or invest in more rural broadband, which will benefit my successor in this job, not me, because of the length of time it takes to recoup that investment?"

      It's a game the 1% play with the rest of us.

    31. Re:That doesn't sound bad by unixisc · · Score: 1

      Well, the country (read via public utilities or private companies) should be capable of providing broadband - be it 25Mbps or 4Mbps to as much of the nation as possible, and in that context, 80% ain't a bad number. Would be nice if it were 100%, and if there were >1 company at any place providing such capabilities.

      Beyond that, how much it would cost would be a function of various free market variables - the cost to lay down the infrastructure, the number of competitors and so on. So the general bitching on /. that Comcast/Verizon/_____ (fill in your favorite EVILLLLLL company) is out to rape all of us is still invalid - anybody is at liberty to not buy from them, and keep restricted to what one can afford, or the minimum that one needs.

      I started off w/ 2Mbps with TWC, and bumped that up to 15Mbps when I realized that 2Mbps didn't do much for things like FaceTime or video streaming. Now, it's fine. By this new definition, I don't have 'broadband', and don't choose to have it - 15Mbps is adequate for what I use it for.

    32. Re:That doesn't sound bad by CAOgdin · · Score: 1

      Nonsense. 80% of Americans are SUPPOSED to "HAVE ACCCESS TO 25Mb" (stet). But, in fact, most of the largest firms (AT&T, Comcast, Verizon, et. al.) limit available speeds, and price higher speeds dramatically higher, so they don't have to invest in more backbone bandwidth for all that aggregate traffic. AT&T would be happier to deliver you 1.5 Mbps than anything higher, because they minimize their capital investments that way. The FCC is calling their bluff, and when the major firms can't deliver the 25 Mbps now defined as "Broadband" minimum speed, the FCC will have more motive to convert all their Internet services to the more highly regulated Title II of the Communication Act.

    33. Re:That doesn't sound bad by Fire_Wraith · · Score: 1

      I have a 25mb download here, but I have to pay for a business-class account at something like $110 per month. On the upside, I do get better service and other benefits, since I do actually use it to run a server, but I'd certainly be much happier if it were better/cheaper. For that kind of price today, in a major metropolitan area, I would expect at least 100-300mb down if not more.

    34. Re:That doesn't sound bad by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Well, what does "get" mean? Has purchased? As in nobody wants to pay for faster service? Or can obtain, as in everybody else is too far from the nearest DSLAM?

      People within a bowshot of me have access to both Cable and DSL. I can get neither, but at first glance everyone thinks that my "neighborhood" has both. Then they check and "oh no, we don't serve that address, how odd". Which is why I get my internet access from a semi-local WISP which promises 6Mbps and delivers 5.7. Some of their customers get 20 Mbps, which you will note is still no longer broadband. However, those customers are in areas where there is competition for internet access. AT&T has literally the only fiber run into my entire county, so my ISP brings a signal in via repeaters across four mountaintops, the fourth of which being where my CPE is pointed.

      I would expect to see the lowest speeds in the most economically depressed areas simply because people have other priorities.

      Well for my part, I expect that it's because Pacific Bell, uh I mean Southwestern Bell, uh I mean AT&T has other priorities, and it has nothing to do with the customer base. If you can't remember that far back, Pacific Bell was notorious for splicing copper until well after you couldn't reasonably splice it any more. And back when we had line sharing, they were notorious for stealing any pair without either POTS or a digital circuit on it to give to one of their subscribers, so if you got your access from someone else across their copper you could expect an interruption any time there was inclement weather or not, because either the weather would get into a splice between the CO and your house, or it would get into some other line and they would steal your pair to use to fix it. But it should go without saying that AT&T didn't come into town and replace all that shitty copper, it's still festering there. And so in some places sure, DSL is great, works even farther than expected... and in other places, DSL is hopeless, and Pacific Bell cut their distance limit from an original 17,500 feet to just 14,000 feet and even some of those customers weren't getting anywhere near their advertised bandwidth.

      Eventually the DSL ISPs started getting dinged hard for delivering lower-than-promised bandwidth, which made DSL penetration the absolute last priority for telcos. So now you have what we have now, where DSL penetration is piss-poor, and I have to use a craptacular WISP because there's nothing else available to me.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    35. Re:That doesn't sound bad by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Yes. I have the option to buy a 25BM/s line.

      Man, if I have one BM a day, I'm happy. Twenty-five a second? You'd lift off! T minus ten, nine, eight...

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    36. Re:That doesn't sound bad by dryeo · · Score: 1

      I know you Americans believe in freedom, especially the freedom to buy laws, regulations and politicians but is it really something to be proud of? Though I guess you're still better then N. Korea so things aren't too bad.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    37. Re:That doesn't sound bad by JoeCommodore · · Score: 1

      Teachnically the "have access to" 25mb down. It may not be affordable, but it's there.

      --
      "Enjoy what you're doing! If it becomes drudgery, you're doing it wrong!" - Jim Butterfield
    38. Re:That doesn't sound bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most of the rest of the "First World" countries are getting faster internet access at cheaper rates.

      Hell, even India has better speeds available at decent prices(for us foreigners) in most cities and towns (and some rural areas).

      You guys, who practically invented the Internet, since the old Arpanet, are getting left behind when it comes to internet access speed by more portions of the world.

      How the mighty have fallen.

    39. Re:That doesn't sound bad by Comen · · Score: 1

      I am sure you meant MB, but remember that it is Mb, like Mega Bit, bits per second is 8 x lower than Bytes per second, it is a big difference, and sometimes used to confuse people on purpose I think.

    40. Re:That doesn't sound bad by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Perhaps he lives in Donetsk.

    41. Re:That doesn't sound bad by zlives · · Score: 1

      i didn't say freedom, i said we "believe" in freemarket, at least to a greater degree.

    42. Re:That doesn't sound bad by dryeo · · Score: 1

      OK, I'll rephrase it as Americans believe in the free market, especially the freedom to use the market to buy laws, regulations and politicians. I'm basing this from the actions of Americans where they consistently vote for the same old politicians who consistently represent who ever payed them the most.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    43. Re:That doesn't sound bad by zlives · · Score: 1

      which ius exactly how free markets should work :) . you get what you pay for, Citizen's United is the crowning achievement of free market.

    44. Re:That doesn't sound bad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We're talking about megabits per second here, not download speeds in megabytes per second.

      THIS
      So many technical friends are caught in this, it's not even funny. Even the ones that understand the point can't seem to choose cheap and effective.
      The end result is that all you money-wasting people bring up the average above comfortable levels, causing more multimegabyte videos (with no fallback to 240p), 1mb to 3 of JS calls per page, and tons of other garbage where a flat page would not be so bad.

      Most everyone uses the numbers to forget that there are EDGE mobile users and people running on low-ram, low-speed PCs from 10 years ago about to be forced to upgrade to handle 'normal' page load standards. It's the same gripe I have with people who pirate software, causing more grief to those of us who do not, because everyone just assumes you can read that giant Photoshop, Powerpoint or MS Word *screencap*, or open DocX files, apply something like bitlocker to your Windows partition, or *output* a resume to PDF when someone snobby won't take RTF or OpenOffice DOC. Only people knee-deep in OSS can morally avoid pirating software.

      Average laws suck. The likes of Facebook and Youtube made it so everyone accepts giving up file hosting for videos, and we the social-media haters are strong-armed into joining reluctanctly (nope, not me) because mom and little brother don't know how to
      - Take Big Event pictures off a standalone digital camera into their PC (noo, 'there must be a FB share button on this app somewhere')
      - Resize those pictures to factor out megapixel bloat (even pros sent me 3mb pics for the site's heading banners at ridiculous master resolutions when we have desktop and mobile users... when downsized only 50-100kb is really apt)
      - zip them into a single attachment (again, eternal september-ers do not understand file weights... broadband and the demise of the floppy caused this)
      - locate the zip (eternal september-ers do not know where their files are, and can barely even tell where FB App or website ends and their OS, browser or file manager starts)
      - upload or email the zip successfully (because a well-located 100MB zip or movie won't fly for 20mb limits on today's email services )

  4. U-verse by darrellg1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    AT&T is soooooo screwed.

    1. Re:U-verse by EmagGeek · · Score: 1

      No, they're not. They are allowed to claim that they offer "broadband" to any area their LTE network is available.

    2. Re:U-verse by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Real-world LTE speeds only qualify as broadband if you're very close to the tower. By the time you get into two-bar territory (where their LTE network is "available"), you'll be lucky to get EDGE speeds, and at one bar, you'll be lucky to get any data at all. Yet technically, LTE is available in all those places. That's the problem with wireless; the speed falls off a cliff as distance increases.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    3. Re:U-verse by Drethon · · Score: 1

      Don't know about you but in my area they provide "Power" internet which is plenty fast, I just don't want to pay that much. Now I'm stuck with Charter which forces me to buy their 60 Mb, oh wait it is only 30 in my area but it still seems to be the same subscription) when all I really want is 15 Mb (and the price that goes with it). Sigh...

    4. Re:U-verse by Drethon · · Score: 1

      Correction... AT&T in the area I used to live in, charter now.

      Slashdot needs an edit command because the one in my brain sucks.

    5. Re:U-verse by leonbev · · Score: 1

      Not necessarily. They used to offer a 48 Mbps option in my area before AT&T sold their Connecticut land line business to Frontier.

      They won't be able to count most of their ADSL customers as "broadband" customers, anymore, though.

    6. Re:U-verse by EmagGeek · · Score: 1

      I get one bar on my hotspot where I am, and I get about 35mbit down and 18mbit up.

    7. Re:U-verse by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Not all devices show LTE bars identically, so your mileage may vary. To compare apples to apples, we'd both need to be using dBm. Truthfully, even that wouldn't necessarily be a valid comparison, depending on multipath interference and a whole host of other factors. My point was that there are a lot of places that have service, but where the minute-long connection latency caused by high packet loss results in such a horrid real-world speed that it might as well be truly slow.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  5. Well, by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    maybe this will make the ISPs move their lazy butt a little and actually upgrade the infrastructure.. .... Oh who am I kidding, it won't.

  6. Broadband no more. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hurray, I no longer have broadband.

  7. aw sum by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

    Now when I say my peak rates are less than 25% of broadband speed, maybe I can get some sympathy

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  8. "Broadband" is a stupid name by plover · · Score: 1

    Broadband is a description of the technology, not of bandwidth. The FCC is a technical organization, so why can't they use the correct name?

    --
    John
    1. Re:"Broadband" is a stupid name by kwiecmmm · · Score: 1

      Broadband is a description of the technology, not of bandwidth. The FCC is a technical organization, so why can't they use the correct name?

      Because the people who vote on this change are not technical people. And because most Americans would not understand a good technical name.

    2. Re:"Broadband" is a stupid name by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because the politicians who wrote the laws did not.

    3. Re:"Broadband" is a stupid name by Strider- · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Broadband is a description of the technology, not of bandwidth.

      Well, to be pedantic, "Broadband" and "Bandwidth" are descriptors for how much spectrum a given signal occupies, and has very little to do with throughput. 802.11b occupies 6MHz of bandwidth to carry 11Mbps, while a QAM256 carrier on cable sends 36Mbps using 6MHz channels. Both of these are broadband, and both have the same bandwidth, but they have significantly different throughputs.

      The correct term would really be data rate, or throughput, or something along those lines.

      --
      ...si hoc legere nimium eruditionis habes...
    4. Re:"Broadband" is a stupid name by hcs_$reboot · · Score: 1

      And in a few years, the "broadband" definition will change again? They should find a new word instead - or add some extension, like "+" or "2" ...

      --
      Slashdot, fix the reply notifications... You won't get away with it...
    5. Re:"Broadband" is a stupid name by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://www.merriam-webster.com...

      Sometimes words have more than one meaning.

      Also, plover is a stupid name too. Sometimes people choose stupid names for things... even themselves.

    6. Re:"Broadband" is a stupid name by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bandwidth is the width of the band of frequencies used. And faster links tend to use wider (sum of) band(s), so are literally broader band services. Since "broad" is a relative term, this redefinition is perfectly technically cromulent. HAND.

    7. Re:"Broadband" is a stupid name by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Because the term has been redefined to mean "high speed" by non-technical sorts. Same reason they call it a a DSL or cable modem, despite the fact that nothing is being modulated or demodulated. It happens, deal with it. Hell, there was a time when "awesome" meant something that inspired awe, and "faggot" referred to a bundle of thin sticks to be used as fuel.

      Meanwhile the term "broadband" has been enshrined in law, and is the basis for various government subsidies, etc.

      Besides, broadband isn't that stupid a name - sure, it no longer refers to a broad band of frequencies used in transmission, but it does refer to a broad data bandwidth, as opposed to the narrow data bandwidth offered by an old-fashioned modem or serial port.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    8. Re:"Broadband" is a stupid name by wiredlogic · · Score: 1

      It is no less applicable than "Hi-Fi" or "Solid State". "Broadband" is just another term for wide bandwidth. It implicitly encompasses higher data rates as a consequence of using more of the spectrum. Coding techniques have almost reached the Shannon limit so the only way to improve data rates is with more bandwidth. This terminology stems from radio engineering which, incidentally, is precisely what the FCC oversees.

      A more useful application of pedantry would be to wage a war against all the dullards who call the internet "the web" even if they aren't using HTTP.

      --
      I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
    9. Re:"Broadband" is a stupid name by MozeeToby · · Score: 1

      To be equally pedantic: the meaning of words change over time, most especially when technical terms are adopted by the common population. When speaking of frequencies, transmissions, filtering, etc, broadband means exactly what you describe. When speaking of internet access, broadband means "high speed".

    10. Re:"Broadband" is a stupid name by Strider- · · Score: 1

      Same reason they call it a a DSL or cable modem, despite the fact that nothing is being modulated or demodulated.

      Where did you get this idea? Both Cable and DSL modems are in fact modems. In the case of cable modems, the data is carried in a set of 6MHz channels (Same bandwidth as analog TV) at various frequencies on the cable. The data being sent over these channels is encoded with QAM (typically QAM-256) and contains a certain amount of Forward Error Correction (to compensate for noise in the line). Thus, your cable modem demodulates these carriers and sends the data out over the ethernet jack, and conversely modulates the outbound data from your system into a TDMA (IIRC) uplink.

      With DSL, the spectrum on the phone line is divided into hundreds of subcarriers, and the data sent/received is divided over all of these subcarriers (thus allowing the system to compensate for weirdness that occurs on phone lines).

      --
      ...si hoc legere nimium eruditionis habes...
    11. Re:"Broadband" is a stupid name by Strider- · · Score: 1

      Yeah, well, I'm an Engineer. Misuse of technical terms is one of my pet peeves. :)

      --
      ...si hoc legere nimium eruditionis habes...
    12. Re:"Broadband" is a stupid name by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To be even more pedantic, "broadband" doesn't mean any of what you said. You described wideband, which does indeed have to do with bandwidth usage.

      Broadband is a type of analog signalling where each signalling state is represented by a different signal value on the carrier, and where no transmission on the carrier simply means exactly that. This allows for simple asynchronous signalling from both ends without a requiring CSMA each time a transceiver begins using the carrier. Analog modems and fax machines use this.

      The opposite of broadband is baseband, which is a digital signalling method where any signal is "high" and no signal is "low", and all transceivers need to use "carrier sensing" (CSMA) when they transmit to synchronize their signalling clocks with the rest of the transceivers using the carrier. Ethernet works like this. "Baseband" is what the "base" in "10base(2|5|T)" is for.

      The reason "broadband" internet is called that is because it uses (you guessed it) a broadband carrier. True, analog modems used one too, but this was originally billed as "ethernet over broadband", which is unusual to say the least. It works hand-in-hand with PPPoE. The modem does ethernet-over-broadband at the hardware level, but PPPoE is the software glue that makes ethernet able to use the connection.

    13. Re:"Broadband" is a stupid name by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Same reason they call it a a DSL or cable modem, despite the fact that nothing is being modulated or demodulated.

      DSL and cable modems do indeed both modulate and demodulate.

      Modulation describes the process of converting an internal signal into a different kind of signal during a transmission process. It does this during any outbound communication by turning the baseband Ethernet signal into a broadband DSL/cable one.

      Likewise, demodulation describes the opposite process, where a signal is converted during reception. This occurs when the modem converts an incoming broadband signal into a baseband one for use on the LAN.

      Or did you think that gnomes moved the electrons from one network to the other?

    14. Re:"Broadband" is a stupid name by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just imagine what writers think of your punctuation, unnecessary capitalization, and grammar.

    15. Re:"Broadband" is a stupid name by CAOgdin · · Score: 1

      Then clearly, you do not understand the relationship between data speed and requisite carrier channel bandwidth.

    16. Re:"Broadband" is a stupid name by CAPSLOCK2000 · · Score: 1

      You must love "dark fiber". In one of my current project every vendor seems to be use "dark fiber" to connect stuff.

    17. Re:"Broadband" is a stupid name by NoKaOi · · Score: 1

      Yeah, well, I'm an Engineer. Misuse of technical terms is one of my pet peeves. :)

      So then you must enjoy eating Organic, chemical-free vegetables, like tomatoes?

  9. Thanks a lot, FCC! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I used to have broadband, you insensitive clods! Government overreach just stripped it from me at the stroke of a pen!

    1. Re:Thanks a lot, FCC! by ArcadeMan · · Score: 1

      You also used to be overweight, so stop complaining!

    2. Re:Thanks a lot, FCC! by Moof123 · · Score: 1

      Thank goodness I upgraded when I did, I barely managed to stay broadband by bumping from 15/5 Mbps to 30/5 Mbps, and somehow payed $5 less a month ($35/mo now).

      I finally started liking our FiOS once I dropped the phone/internet and figured out how to stop the incessant beeping when the phone backup battery died. The FiOS box does not properly maintain the lead-acid battery and it runs flat after a year or so, so I found the buzzer on the PCB and smashed it. No more battery at all. None of our phones worked without line power anyway, and we switched to Vonage for the house phone that we can't quite bring ourselves to get rid of.

    3. Re:Thanks a lot, FCC! by Moof123 · · Score: 1

      Dropped the phone/TV, not the internet, sorry.

  10. pfft... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    in my area the only official package from AT&T is 3Mb down, 512kb up, I managed years ago to get 6Mb down 768kb up, so, still without broadband!

    and AT&T has no plans to improve my area, and despite coax cable running around my neighbor hood, not a single Cable provider in my area... I really want to climb up that pole, hook in or unplug the cable and see if someone comes out... ILL PAY FOR F&*#@%$# SAKE SAVE ME FROM AT&T

    well, hasnt changed in 15 years, probably not going to change anytime soon either...

  11. The Consumer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    always wins in the end?

    1. Re:The Consumer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      always gets it in the end.

      FTFY.

      Now as to what they get in their end...

  12. the state speaks by fche · · Score: 0

    "When 80 percent of Americans can access 25-3, that's a standard. We have a problem that 20 percent can't. We have a responsibility to that 20 percent,"

    So the FCC gets to change its own standards, then impose its jurisdiction on the new stragglers. Typical regulator. No skin in the game, but always knows what's good for everyone else.

    1. Re:the state speaks by zlives · · Score: 1

      leading from behind... way behind.

    2. Re:the state speaks by afidel · · Score: 1

      Uh, they changed the standard so that those who are milking on the USF can't continue to give their customers 1990's internet speeds with your money...

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    3. Re:the state speaks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Typical knee-jerk libertarian. The government's always wrong, no matter what.

    4. Re:the state speaks by fche · · Score: 1

      It's not "always wrong, no matter what". It merely lacks incentives and feedbacks to produce what the people actually value. It has power without responsibility. It can be wrong, and suffers nothing. (Was the FCC wrong to make the "standard" 3/1M so long? How has it suffered for that? A business wrong for too long would die.)

  13. What has the world come to ... by dfn5 · · Score: 4, Funny

    ... when the 3c509 is no longer considered broadband.

    --
    -- Thou hast strayed far from the path of the Avatar.
    1. Re:What has the world come to ... by Megane · · Score: 1

      Why are you still using 3c509 when you can get eepro100 by the crate-load?

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    2. Re:What has the world come to ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The memories... they're flowing forth.

    3. Re:What has the world come to ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm so glad that I don't support any old 10 Mbit devices any longer.

    4. Re:What has the world come to ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What about 3c905?

    5. Re:What has the world come to ... by Pope+Hagbard · · Score: 1

      Good luck getting a 3c905 to work on 64-bit Windows.

    6. Re:What has the world come to ... by sconeu · · Score: 1

      ------- Whoosh------>

        O
      -+-
      / \

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    7. Re:What has the world come to ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whoosh!

    8. Re:What has the world come to ... by toddestan · · Score: 1

      It'll "just work" in the sense that Windows has a built-in driver for it. At least on Vista/7, maybe not on 8+.

    9. Re:What has the world come to ... by Pope+Hagbard · · Score: 1

      Wrong. There are no 64-bit drivers for this card starting at least with Win7. You'll need either 32-bit Windows or 32/64-bit *nix.

  14. DSL? by l0n3s0m3phr34k · · Score: 1

    Where does this put DSL? It's right at that limit. No real available upgrade paths.

    1. Re:DSL? by itzly · · Score: 1

      Why ? I have 52Mbps DSL right now.

    2. Re:DSL? by Megane · · Score: 1

      VDSL?

      That's what U-verse uses. Last summer I finally switched over from 6m/600k DSL to 24M/8M(?) since 2004-ish, though my line (about 500 wire feet from the pedestal) syncs at 64/24 or so on a single wire pair. (I think U-verse can bond two pairs) I get only Internet/VoIP because I refuse to pay for television. (MythTV gives me nice unrestricted .mpg files from my antenna.) Then they silently upgraded me to 32M down, which I only noticed when I started half a dozen torrents one Saturday morning.

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    3. Re:DSL? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where does this put DSL? It's right at that limit. No real available upgrade paths.

      I have 50/10 mbps DSL. Regularly getting above 49 down in practice, around 9 up.

    4. Re:DSL? by spire3661 · · Score: 1

      How are they doing that over copper? Bonding multiple lines?

      --
      Good-bye
    5. Re:DSL? by RogueWarrior65 · · Score: 1

      There are some markets where XDSL is being tested. It works by ganging multiple lower-speed DSL lines together like a RAID array.

    6. Re:DSL? by amxcoder · · Score: 1

      But U-Verse isn't this good in all areas. I switched over a year or two ago as well from a 6Mb DSL line. I asked for the highest internet package offered in my area, and it is the 18Mb package. I also have VoIP/TV through them. In order to get enough bandwidth in my neighborhood for my requested internet speed + service overhead for Voice/TV, they had to give me 2 bonded lines already as they could only get about 15Mb total from a single line here. The bandwidth of the entire system is somewhere around 28-30Mb, but they reserve about 10Mb of it for the VoiP/TV, so I wouldn't call my internet connection over the new 25Mb limit as it's not. So far, they still don't offer any faster speeds here than what I have.

      Even more frustrating, is the fact that even with a 18Mb down speed, my up speed is less than 2Mb. :(

  15. US Robotics 56K by Chess_the_cat · · Score: 5, Funny

    This morning I had broadband. Now I don't. Thanks Obama!

    --
    Support the First Amendment. Read at -1
    1. Re:US Robotics 56K by zlives · · Score: 1

      they took our Broadband!

    2. Re:US Robotics 56K by andydouble07 · · Score: 3, Funny

      If you like your broadband, you can keep it.

    3. Re:US Robotics 56K by zlives · · Score: 1

      the irony of the similar circumstances and reactions is sweet.

    4. Re:US Robotics 56K by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess I've made a mistake not reading the ruling in detail. So what you are saying is that AT&T is now going to charge me per byte for internet access until it is so expensive that I have to put it on my credit card and then after that it will be free for the rest of the year?

    5. Re:US Robotics 56K by CAOgdin · · Score: 1

      Sure. By setting a higher speed as the new definition of what is to be considered Broadband, the government has taken away the speed you have. You clod. All the FCC did was to change the definition. If they hadn't, then Telcos could offer you 1.5 Mbps service and call it "Broadband." In other words, they changed the definition of what Telcos can advertise, not what they deliver today.

    6. Re:US Robotics 56K by antdude · · Score: 1

      56K? FCC only allows up to 53K. I wished I could go that high for dial-up modem speeds. It is ranges from 21600 to 31200. Lots of line noises and at best 3 kB/sec for compressed downloads. :(

      --
      Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
  16. Doesn't suddenly make your DSL faster by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you're stuck on DSL because Verizon sucks, and there's no cable in your area, you're still limited to 3 Mbps.

    You can't legislate technology.

    1. Re:Doesn't suddenly make your DSL faster by Crashmarik · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You can't legislate technology.

      Ever read the National Electric Code ?

    2. Re:Doesn't suddenly make your DSL faster by Megane · · Score: 1

      Classic ADSL (the original 1998 version) goes to 8M/1M. If all you can get is 3M down, then that's because Verizon sucks. I had a less ambitious 6M/600K for years from AT&T until I upgraded to U-verse last year.

      ADSL2+ (Annex M 2008) supports 24M down / 3.3M up and the telco side gear should be compatible with classic ADSL CPE. VDSL1 supports 55M down / 3M up and should also be backward compatible with ADSL. Both of these are probably where FCC got their numbers.

      And Verizon also sucks because they're not going to build out any more FIOS.

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    3. Re:Doesn't suddenly make your DSL faster by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, because despite it being part of my municipal building codes, you have to pay for access to view it.

    4. Re:Doesn't suddenly make your DSL faster by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're stuck on DSL because Verizon sucks, and there's no cable in your area, you're still limited to 3 Mbps.

      You can't legislate technology.

      Verizon might suck, but DSL technology is not the problem, I have 50/10 mbps DSL and get very close to that in practice.

    5. Re:Doesn't suddenly make your DSL faster by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You deliberately misinterpreted AC's post. You can't legislate physics, is what he should have written.

    6. Re:Doesn't suddenly make your DSL faster by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

      Are you certain of that ? I know lots of people that have mistaken beliefs about just how much technical merit really counts.

    7. Re:Doesn't suddenly make your DSL faster by kupekhaize · · Score: 1

      ADSL is very dependent on your local loop length. Higher loop to CO or micro-CO, lower achievable speeds. 8M ADSL was supported on people with something like 5000 feet of copper to the DSLAM (CO), which is damn near impossible for most people who don't live practically next door to one (that 5000 feet of copper doesn't go so far when it starts all the twists and turns needed to make it to each house or unit). There are newer standards now that will tolerate longer loops, but as far as many DSL companies are concerned "why change what isn't broken. The current standard is fine for our customers, because they can't get anything else anyway."

      --
      One of these days i'm going to find this 'peer' guy and reset HIS connection!
  17. Re:Dumb by Immerman · · Score: 1

    That's less than 4MB/s after overhead - awful handy for downloading multi-GB ISOs, streaming high-def videos, etc.

    --
    --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
  18. Re:Dumb by Immerman · · Score: 1

    Correction - less that *3* megabytes per second. 25Mbps = 3.125MBps, minus overhead.

    --
    --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
  19. Ugh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And yet browsing the 'net in 1997 from a uni computer was a faster experience than browsing the net from home now, I would work, study and play with a 56k connection, and the 128k leased line my Rich Friend had to their house (!) was more than anyone needed to dream of.

    I used to be such a tech geek, but now I see it's an upgrade treadmill with the software side progressively making less effort and the hardware side enabling them to do so. Where are we going? What is the point? Is this about improving society, or a circle jerk of money around people who already have enough anyway? It seems like a dull game for dull minds.

  20. Pot, this here's Kettle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Broadband is a description of the technology, not of bandwidth. The FCC is a technical organization, so why can't they use the correct name?

    If you want to split hairs, broadband absolutely does refer to a bandwidth. The frequency band is broad, thus it has more width.

    You can try to win the terminology war about data rates vs. frequency ranges, but I think you've pretty much demonstrated that few people understand, much less care, about such distinctions in this context.

  21. Really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    About. Damn. Time.

  22. Re:Dumb by ArcadeMan · · Score: 1

    Steam and Battle.net updates, Xbox/Playstation/Wii downloads, etc.

  23. Re:Dumb by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Why is this moderated down? This is the question we should be asking when changing legal definitions of things.

    What can you now suddenly do on a 25Mbps connection that you couldn't do on a 4Mbps connection that makes it worth changing the legal definition of "broadband Internet access?"

    Otherwise this is just the FCC wasting our tax dollars on doing something entirely pointless.

    4Mbps is by far good enough for just about anything you'd do online. 25Mbps would allow you to do the same things, only faster. Why bother changing the definition?!

  24. FCC definition of "Brandband Connection" by WaffleMonster · · Score: 0

    This was retrieved today from FCC website:

    Broadband Connection: A wired line or wireless channel that terminates at an end-user location and enables the end user to receive information from and/or send information to the Internet at information transfer rates exceeding 200 kbps in at least one direction.

    Why does the FCC continue to define broadband as 200 kbps for the purposes of service provider reporting requirements when it is 100 times lower than their current definition of broadband?

    1. Re:FCC definition of "Brandband Connection" by unixisc · · Score: 1

      Also, why are we still using asymmetric definitions of broadband, given that our newer usage - particularly FaceTime, Skype, VOIP, et al - require speeds to be same in either direction?

  25. Re:Dumb by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

    What on earth does anyone need 25Mbps for

    Replace "25Mbps" with "640kb" and maybe you'll see why that was a stupid thing to say.

  26. Re:Dumb by afidel · · Score: 1

    You can't stream HD video on 4Mbps, you can't get large patches is a reasonable time with 4Mbps, you can't Skype in HD with 1Mbps of upload, it takes forever to seed a cloud backup with 1Mbps (I put a few hundred GB in Crashplan and it took a month, I have more data than that but I had to pick the important data because my upload was so limited), etc.

    --
    There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
  27. screwed again by big gubbamint! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    THANKS, OBAMA!

  28. the practical result of this. by nimbius · · Score: 1

    This definition change doesnt affect customers really. Although tripling the number of american households without broadband is a convenient means of shaming the administration into pushing for common carrier status, as before this definitional change people like comcast were in fact allowed to call damned near anything they sold broadband and insist it was competitive enough. Administrative definitions of broadband may even hold water in court. For example if my bill continues to state im being charged for broadband at 11 megabit, i can likely sue for false advertising. chances are good though, as other slashdotters have noted, that assholes like time warner and comcast will just amend their 2015 marketing material with a disclaimer that not all speeds are broadband.

    The real pisser is in the network. Cable companies have zero incentive to compete even if the common carrier law is passed. Theyve already hung enough cable to render land lines, which could be used like a local DSL hub from fibre to the doorstep, rotted and useless in most buildings. What they can do however is push for local legislation to criminalize using their already well funded and maintained copper for things like Google Fibre.

    --
    Good people go to bed earlier.
    1. Re:the practical result of this. by Fire_Wraith · · Score: 1

      Pushing for state/local regulation blocking Google Fiber/etc? They're doing that anyway. Title II/Common carrier won't make them more likely to do it. If anything, Title II/Common Carrier would help protect Google and any other would-be competitors from *exactly* those sorts of shenanigans, by requiring things like equal access to rights of way and utility poles, as Google themselves noted in their comments to the FCC. No, the existing incumbents have no incentive to compete, any more than they did before, right up until the point where someone new comes into the neighborhood. Funny how quickly the incumbents in Austin started offering vastly better options once Google started building out. A lot of it really will depend on the details. Title II contains a lot of stuff, and the FCC doesn't have to implement all of it for internet service. A lot of it would probably help, and some of it might cause more problems than it solves. Hopefully the FCC does it intelligently.

  29. I won't see speeds like this for a loooong time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In Vermont my only option is FairPoint DSL. Since I'm almost 11K line feet from the CO, the most I can get out of my line is 3Mb/down on a good day. That doesn't take into account the multiple times every week I have to reboot the modem to relock the connection.

    I don't expect I'll see fiber out my way, since I live in a somewhat unpopulated area. Fiber runs past on it's way to the CO, but I don't expect they are going to up and offer residential connections off of it. A business account would be crazy expensive.

  30. you're a well populated area? by electrosoccertux · · Score: 3, Funny

    even well-populated areas of the US still have limited, unreliable, and gimmick-heavy choices. I'm one.

    you are?

    1. Re:you're a well populated area? by steelfood · · Score: 1

      No. GP is actually a limited, unreliable, and gimmick-heavy choice.

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    2. Re:you're a well populated area? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      you are?

      He's a whole damned town!

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:you're a well populated area? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought he meant he was a limited, unreliable, gimmick-heavy choice.

    4. Re:you're a well populated area? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      An average human has ten microorganisms in his body for every cell, which adds up to about 90 trillion. I'd say that definitely qualifies as "well-populated"!

    5. Re:you're a well populated area? by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      flea problem

    6. Re:you're a well populated area? by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Clearly, GP was trying to preemptively discharge the obvious "yo momma" joke.

  31. The Influence of Netflix by geekmux · · Score: 1

    So 25Mb is the new broadband minimum?

    Just wondering, did Netflix traffic get counted in that determination, or will Netflix service bypass all of this and soon be deemed a mandatory Right, protected under the 28th Amendment?

    1. Re:The Influence of Netflix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mean old government.

    2. Re:The Influence of Netflix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You, sir, are a moron.

    3. Re:The Influence of Netflix by geekmux · · Score: 1

      You, sir, are a moron.

      Yes, I must be the sole moron in charge of re-defining global internet traffic patterns splitting all of our bits and bytes into two distinct buckets of demand; Netflix and everything else.

      Sorry about that. I'll try and remember to turn the damn thing off before I fall asleep next time to avoid crashing your local CDN.

    4. Re:The Influence of Netflix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sorry. You're not a moron. You're a technologically impaired moron.

  32. investor returns, perhaps? by swschrad · · Score: 1

    many of the countries with 100 Mb and gig to the home almost universally do not have for-profit privatized telcos.

    they have nationalized telcos, and if the leader of their administration says "run fiber, not wire," they get the money and power to do that.

    the rest back up "requests" to speed it up with subsidized dollars to make it work.

    in the US, if you can't make your dividends and trench down fiber, the fiber doesn't happen.

    --
    if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
    1. Re:investor returns, perhaps? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      many of the countries with 100 Mb and gig to the home almost universally do not have for-profit privatized telcos.

      Perhaps, but not in my case.

      I have 100/100 Mbps symmetric fiber to the house with up to 5 IPv4 addresses and I live in rural Finland (about 400km north of Helsinki). There are no monthly caps, no blocked ports, and we run our own web server and mail server. We've only occasionally exceeded 1TByte per month between upload and download, but we exceed 500GByte often enough. Our service is from DNA, and costs Eur45 per month (apparently this includes some sort of IP phone, but we've never used that service).

  33. no, everyone stop guessing if you don't know by raymorris · · Score: 0

    I don't understand why everybody is guessing. This doesn't have anything to do with advertising or any of that. The FCC by law is required to count which rural areas have internet access that is unable for:

    High quality voice
    Data
    Images
    Video

    Those are the four elements specified by Congress. With this change, the ability to watch Netflix at 1080p with a 5Mbps connection will no longer qualify. So the FCC will now report that 19% of people don't have internet that is usable for the four items listed above.

    What Congress and the ISPs will do with that information is unknown. One thing we know is that ISPs won't get "credit" for rolling out internet access on their legacy coax networks. Instead, they'd have to spend several thousand dollars per mile on upgrades before it's recognized as high speed, so in suburban areas new upgrades should support 25Mbps, but in rural areas they'll likely not happen at all. Why would an ISP spend $15,000 to run fiber or new coax to one farmer, then another $12,000 to get to the next farm? They won't, unless someone else is forced to pay for it.

    It is possible that lawmakers will decide they want to upgrade rural areas from 5Mbps to "broadband", in which case we'll all pay the $15,000 cost to upgrade farmer Bob from 5Mbps to 25Mbps.

    1. Re: no, everyone stop guessing if you don't know by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      15,000 divided by 100 million....I can dig it.

      I get a worse return on lottery tickets.

  34. Does it pass the test? by KlomDark · · Score: 2

    It's not truly "high speed internet" until it can pass this test:

    http://messagebase.net/Home/Re...

    1. Re:Does it pass the test? by mlheur · · Score: 1

      Damn, I wish I saw this before I started working on my post: http://yro.slashdot.org/commen...
      A really good solution would be to forgo the use of broadband in the gov't and instead use "high speed internet". Then they can re-quantify "how high is high", and keep re-quantifying it as much as they want. Everyone wins.

    2. Re:Does it pass the test? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All I've learned is that my reading speed keeps getting slower.

  35. Outraged by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What?! Now my 6/2Mbps connection isn't broadband. Thanks Obama!

  36. Re:Dumb by CurryCamel · · Score: 1

    I guess the crux of the matter is with this quote from TFA:

    With the US currently ranked 25th in the world in broadband speeds,

    With 4Mbps as a limit for "broadband intenet access", you just can't boast about being a leader in internet accessability. And not being able to boast hurts the American psyche.

    Because 4k TV is a Basic Human Right. Right?

  37. Dang! by pubwvj · · Score: 1

    Dang! In December we finally got broadband access in our area and now they've taken it away. Oh, well. I'll go surf another bitch.

  38. Considering websites = 40% ads? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    See subject: He doesn't have to read it/legislate - hosts help http://yro.slashdot.org/commen...

    APK

    P.S.=> As the poster you replied to stated? I just use EXISTING NATIVE TECHNOLOGY already present in your OS out there on most ALL platforms to "beat the game" (& get my monies' worth for bandwidth + speed I paid for that ads suck away, AND infect me with malicious code too, which hosts also stop - bonus... & that's just the TIP of the iceberg on the many multiple benefits hosts provide for added speed, reliability, safety, and even anonymity (to an extent only on the latter) online)... apk

    1. Re:Considering websites = 40% ads? by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      That couldn't possibly be a real APK post, it was entirely too short, and didn't have enough random Bold CAPSLOCK text.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    2. Re:Considering websites = 40% ads? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sockpuppet you look and smell like a clucking duck http://yro.slashdot.org/commen... "quack quack quack" hahahahaha so keep quacking while guys like apk build good things and you idly troll others

    3. Re:Considering websites = 40% ads? by unixisc · · Score: 1

      And nothing about how our /etc/hosts files can convert our 4Mbps connections to 25Mbps, thereby instantly giving us broadband

    4. Re:Considering websites = 40% ads? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who said it would or could? You did. Quit trying to play that game. Hosts files do what was said. It's more than you've accomplished.

      APK

      P.S.=> Silence DOLT! apk

    5. Re:Considering websites = 40% ads? by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      I'm a sockpuppet? That is interesting. Who am I a sockpuppet for?

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    6. Re:Considering websites = 40% ads? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're an off topic 7 digit account brand new sockpuppet trolling, obviously.

    7. Re:Considering websites = 40% ads? by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      Brand new sock puppet? I think you have poor estimating skills as my account is around 5 years old.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    8. Re:Considering websites = 40% ads? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you're a 5 yr. old sockpuppet that can't proved apk wrong here http://yro.slashdot.org/commen... or here either http://yro.slashdot.org/commen... you've done nothing like it yourself that helps speed up, secure vs. online threats or make your connection more reliable (vs. dns issues) like apk has. All you have is trolling bullshit.

    9. Re:Considering websites = 40% ads? by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      Funny, cause neither of those made any sense to say I couldn't prove him wrong. Heck, the second link I wasn't even in.

      Why do you think I am trying to prove anything?

      Also, you seem to not understand what a sockpuppet is. If you believe I am a sockpuppet, what is my main account?

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
  39. FTFY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Fox News / Tea Party sycophants have a distrust of the government.
    That is not Americans in general, that is just what the Murdoch media have told you to believe.

  40. My overpriced, underpowered ISP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I live in Canada, and my wildly overpriced, wildly underpowered ISP is called TELUS. Its $50 per month, for 2.5 Mbps down and 500 kbps up. Which is gobs more expensive than most of the world, and yet also much slower. And their main business is as a phone company, and their main competition is a cable company (go figure). And the two collude to keep speeds low and prices high. And they inherited the public telephone system which people paid for and they got for free. And now if anyone wants to come in and compete, they charge through the nose for access to lines they never paid for. I don't think competition is that lacking in Europe or Asia. We really need a secondary network. I know when digital TV came in, the cable company offered 'free cable lines with local channels' so people wouldn't have to put up antennas. You just had to listen to their marketing spiel. The offer only provided the same content as over-the-air, and the offer was only for those within range of the signal. So they are fully aware of how much they are hosing people, and so long as no one comes in with something better, they are content to provide as little as possible for as much as possible.

  41. This just in, Gov't redifines "moon" by mlheur · · Score: 1

    "Moon now means any body of matter with more than 10^24 KG of mass that orbits any other body of matter"
    So apparently the earth no longer has a moon, but is one... That's not a far-fetched idea considering we have recently redefined the word Planet to be more descriptive.

    The other thing is that defining "broadband" is the same fallacy as "the Inuit have 100+ words for snow". FYI - those words are wetsnow drysnow heavysnow ligthsnow bluesnow whitesnow yellowsnow ....

    Broad is already defined; band is already defined; and width is already defined.

    In relevant context: band is a contiguous set of wavelengths in the electromagnetic spectrum; width is the size of the band from wave lengths X through Y; broad is a qualitative description of the width of the band - the difference between X and Y. Thusly, broadband and bandwidth have intrinsic definitions that any reasonably intelligent entity familiar with basic English can deduce.

    It's nice that a broad band width can carry more streams of information than a narrow one. It's perfectly acceptable for a government to want its citizens to have faster access to information.

    IMO, to redefine a word, and not give a definition to subjects newly excluded from the definition is detrimental to society. In the 90's you basically had dial-up internet or broadband internet. These were not great labels, but they did the trick - broadband provided more bandwidth than the POTS networks could provide. These almost made sense. Would we ever see "dial-up" internet to mean only 33.6kbps or more? What happens to the people still using 28.8

    What do we have with this new definition? Anyone who is somehow newly exposed to the word cannot use previous knowledge to understand its meaning. There are still users on dial-up, there are users with broadband capable of > 25Mbps down & 3Mbps up, but what about those users that are not on dial-up and have less 25Mbps down? What kind of internet connection do they have? It's not narrowband.

    I think a better solution is leave the word broadband alone, and use more words to provide more description: e.g. "broadband" = "( ! dial-up ) && ( over phone || cable networks )", "basic braodband" = less than 1Mbps; "broadband-1" = >= 1Mbps && up to "broadband-3" = >= 3Mbps && ... && up to "broadband-100" = >= 100Mbps. In the future we can redefine broadband-100 to include an "up to broadband-X" clause and create a new broadband-X.

    At least we had the decency to give Pluto the word dwarfplanet.

    P.S. - I really hate that /. comments prevent me from using a single character to say "less than", and two characters to say "less than or equal to".

  42. Re:Use technology to make DSL faster by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hilarious bullshitters here minusmod you when you do a good thing apk and they just go "quack, quack, quack" around here on this forum all day instead of doing the same as you are.

  43. Re:Dumb by Coren22 · · Score: 1

    Maybe that was the meaning behind the title, s/he was stating that the following comment was dumb.

    --
    APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
  44. R O T F L M A O @ "quack, quack, quack" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Their loss, not mine. Most of them are lucky to be able to code @ all let alone create anything worth putting out publicly.

    (In fact, on that note, since I've tossed it around here more than just a few times? I guarantee that 1 of the little trolling "ne'er-do-well" dolts I've told that to that couldn't prove me wrong & back himself up IS the one downmodding me...)

    * No, not ALL /. is that way: The guys that actually DO do good things don't *ever* give me guff... one that comes to mind instantly, is Animats (who produces something similar to what I do in hosts, albeit iirc, he offers it as an online service).

    APK

    P.S.=> There's "That kind" (quacking ducks, lol) & then there's the ones hosts adversely affect too as a possible downmodder of my hosts posts, in malware makers, botnet herders, webmasters (whom I held off for a GOOD 9++ yrs. in releasing this program for, hoping they'd ALL get on the advertisers' backs on malcoded adbanners, & they never did (it's ALL "their God", money, instead of caring for their userbases))... apk

  45. Google Fiber by darkain · · Score: 1

    Does this mean the Google Fiber free tier will be upgraded from 5mbps to 25mbps? They were just above the line before, and now well below it. (granted, if I lived in a Google Fiber area, you would bet your ass off I'd have the gigabit connection!)

  46. The "definition of broadband" did NOT change. by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 1

    Seems correct. In this case, the situation is entirely faked. The "definition of broadband" did not change.

    The "definition" being discussed is only the electrical connection speed. The actual information delivery speed can be anything a huge, abusive company wants.

    What matters is the delivery speed. Supposedly the speed of the connection I am testing is "25 Mbps". SpeedTest.net says the speed is more than "50 Mbps".

    The actual information delivery speed measured by numion.com is:
    Kilobits/second (Kilobytes/second)
    Surfspeed inside United States: 239.24 (29.90)
    Surfspeed average (worldwide): 198.64 (24.83)
    Surfspeed outside United States: 187.24 (23.40)

    A local city leader told me it costs "$400,000" to get elected. Any government that requires leaders to spend huge amounts of money to be elected isn't actually a democracy.

    1. Re:The "definition of broadband" did NOT change. by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      Any government that requires leaders to spend huge amounts of money to be elected isn't actually a democracy.

      The filing fees for local offices are rarely more than a few hundred dollars, if that much. That's a paltry sum that the government requires to run for office. If you can't get a group of your supporters to donate that much, then it is unlikely you'll get enough votes to win anyway.

      Now, the "$400,000" your local city leader friend told you "it costs" to be elected is really what HE spent on it. It isn't what government required him to spend.We have almost an entire city council here in this city that spent nothing more than the filing fee for their offices.

      Of course he spent his money because he wanted to get his message to people so they'd vote for him instead of his opponent, most likely. Well, effective free speech requires money. That's a fact of life. If you're an unknown candidate, then it will cost more to get enough name recognition to win. That's also a fact of life.

    2. Re: The "definition of broadband" did NOT change. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The words were clear, to be elected, not to be on the ballot.

      The difference is significant.

    3. Re:The "definition of broadband" did NOT change. by SkunkPussy · · Score: 1

      This is one time where survivorship bias is not a flaw. If someone who got elected says it costs this much, then it probably did. We don't hear from all the people who spent less, *because they failed to get elected*!

      Personally I think at least part of government should be drawn by lot (a la jury service), as elections really devolve to a spending contest, despite being at least theoretically democratic.

      --
      SURELY NOT!!!!!
  47. Re:Dumb by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You can't stream HD video on 4Mbps, you can't get large patches is a reasonable time with 4Mbps, you can't Skype in HD with 1Mbps of upload, it takes forever to seed a cloud backup with 1Mbps (I put a few hundred GB in Crashplan and it took a month, I have more data than that but I had to pick the important data because my upload was so limited), etc.

    1. Who cares about HD, it's not a government's job to mandate a slightly clearer picture in video streaming.
    2. The definition of reasonable is absurdly vague. If something can patch in the background than a few hours is reasonable.
    3. See 1.
    4. See 2.

  48. Re:Dumb by afidel · · Score: 1

    The only thing they're regulating is how government money is being handed out to telecom companies. You government is evil people are so odd.

    --
    There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
  49. You have to realize one thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You are getting UP TO your connection speeds. It doesn't mean if you are paying for a 50M/10M connection you will get that 24/7/365. You will be lucky to get that 50% of the time but keep paying the insane fees for that specification. Oh and wait, if the big ISP's decide they want more money and start throttling something like netflix or hulu to squeeze more money out of them, good luck being able to do anything about it.

  50. Really wish I could edit by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

    Anyway, realized I was being too terse again, The electrical code and government regulation are the applicable metaphors as opposed to physics. Cable companies don't build out because they feel they can use the money better elsewhere. Governments can force them to build out, by taking away their monopolies if they don't.

    It's mostly an economic/political question where broadband gets deployed.

  51. Math question by decherneyge · · Score: 1

    can some one explain this part to me... "effectively triples the number of US households without broadband access. ... 6.3 percent ...13.1 percent "

    1. Re:Math question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a Common Core thing.

  52. Dang. I just got broadband... by rnturn · · Score: 1

    ... a few months ago. Now, all of a sudden, I'm without broadband again.

    --
    CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
  53. Surprising by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I guess I thought the FCC was in the pocket of the Cable companies. Nice to see that they voted against them in this instance.

  54. AKA Comcast's lowest tier by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Conveniently enough, Comcast's lowest tier is 25mb/s down 4 mb/s up. They probably even wrote the legislation.

  55. get more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    1. Re:get more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://yro.slashdot.org/commen...

      So, I might at some point have considered this if there was a lot less aggressive spam for it on Slashdot. I believe you turn far more users away than you recruit with this approach.

    2. Re:get more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Spam" = the cry of a jealous ac troll with nothing to say on topic + no talent to create something good himself. You're off topic. The post you replied to's on topic not spam. Your loss on all fronts.

    3. Re:get more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Spam" = the cry of a jealous ac troll with nothing to say on topic + no talent to create something good himself. You're off topic. The post you replied to's on topic not spam. Your loss on all fronts.

      Relax, it was meant as advice, but if your goal is to drive people away from this product you are continuing on a great path.

    4. Re:get more by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Facts in his link show hosts yield more speed, security, reliabilty mean more than your bs.

  56. Now that we've redefined broadband... by kenh · · Score: 1

    How long before the Democrats start running around telling us how horrible it is that do few Americans have access to broadband internet access, and then they will roll out a solution, based on increasing taxes on the rich to fund a massive infrastructure investment that just so happens to include almost exclusively Democrat contributors.

    We saw this with the 2008 race to invest in green energy, remember Solyndra?

    --
    Ken
  57. Turn tose numbers around... by kenh · · Score: 1

    Currently, 6.3 percent of US households don't have access to broadband under the previous 4Mpbs/1Mbps threshold, while another 13.1 percent don't have access to broadband under the new 25Mbps downstream threshold.

    6.3 + 13.1 = 19.4%

    That means just over 80% of Ameticans DO have access to High-speed broadband internet service.

    Reminds me of the 85% of Americans that were pleased with their healthcare coverage, before Democrats convinced us we needed to light our hair on fire and turn the healthcare industry on it's ear to address the 15% without healthcare coverage..

    --
    Ken
  58. What about D/L caps? by ardave8952 · · Score: 1

    Shouldn't monthly (or periodic) download caps be included in the official definition of "broadband?" Otherwise I can see a really good way of gaming this definition.

  59. non sequitur by Uberbah · · Score: 1

    Because thats how Republicans/Democrats crush third party political parties.

    There are plenty of parties out there that don't have their heads as far up their asses as Libertarians do.

  60. Now what? by DaRyuujin · · Score: 1

    Ok so they changed the definition of what "broadband" is. Now the question is what will they do to help all those who have no access to high speed internet? Or those who are stuck with the crappy DSL services that run on copper networks that provided like Verizon let degrade? I don't see how changing this definition will help the situation of the sub par internet servicesin the US. Big deal Verizon can't call their DSL "Broadband" anymore, they will use a new term and nothing will change.

  61. You're outnumbered 130++:1... apk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    UnknownSoldier, gl4ss, , sootman, TestedDoughnut, TempestRose, lennier1, ScottCooperDotNet,Bill Dog, drinkypoo,
    Culture20, Rick17JJ, Ol Olsoc, icebraining, Trax3001BBS, fahrbot-bot, EdIII, bLanark, RocketRabbit, TheRealGrogan, Martin Blank, CAIMLAS. drakaan, Dynedain,Lime Green Bowler, Bob9113, wolrahnaes, raju1kabir, mrbcs, gweihir, , frovingslosh, tepples, kimvette, Geeky, humanrev, maestroX, , phrostie, ElectricTurtle, mattbee, VShael, AndGodSed, jafiwam,
    i.r.id10t, NeverVotedBush, falconwolf, BrokenHalo, orclevegam, cyberjock1980, gad_zuki!, furby076, jandrese, , halcyon1234, Anonymous Admin, houghi, drooling-dog, dracocat, betterunixthanunix, someones, sqrt(2), cratermoon, bmo, fast turtle, Kris_J, SydShamino, Technician, pjkeyzer, srmalloy, schwit1, mrbcs, KingAlanI, ksemlerK, Scorch_, Mechanic, NealBScott, Anubis IV, crutchy, damn_registrars, , couchslug, green1, wakeboarder, Gothmolly, lesincompetent, ls671, DigiShaman, P. Don, Yaa 101, qwertyatwork, dehole, , Em Adespoton, CAOgdin, schwit1, MightyYar, RJFerret , idontgno, technosaurus, wickerprints, noh8rz10, sexconker, sandbagger, NewWorldDan, Karmashock, aNonnyMouseCowered, Dracos, keith_nt4, networkzombie, jafiwam, JohnFen, SigmundFloyd, EETech1, duck_rifted, The MAZZTer, Anonymous Brave Guy, plasm4, holophrastic, Baki,
    StikyPad, kermidge

    APK

    P.S.=> See subject, & those /. users disagree with you - they use hosts files (you're outnumbered bigtime) + DEMAND for the program (hosted by MalwareBytes' hpHosts no less) has gone up SO much, they had to move to AMAZON UnDDoS'able servers (for both increase in hosts data demand AND for downloads of APK Hosts File Engine 9.0++ SR-1 32/64-bit) - now, when YOU can manage to do the same? MAYBE THEN, I'd listen... apk

    1. Re:You're outnumbered 130++:1... apk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, this is a list of users who appreciate providers who attack potential customers in an aggressive way?

    2. Re:You're outnumbered 130++:1... apk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Says the ac troll giving apk crap? Please. They use hosts. You lose.

    3. Re:You're outnumbered 130++:1... apk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Says the ac troll giving apk crap?

      said by Anonymous Coward..

      This is too rich to be true, you are trolling for fun right? You don't care that these posts make people stay away from apk.

    4. Re:You're outnumbered 130++:1... apk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's true you're outnumbered 117++:1 by /.'ers using hosts here http://yro.slashdot.org/commen...

  62. You're outnumbered 130++:1 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    UnknownSoldier, gl4ss, sootman, TestedDoughnut, TempestRose, lennier1, ScottCooperDotNet, Bill Dog, drinkypoo, Culture20, Rick17JJ, Ol Olsoc, icebraining, Trax3001BBS, fahrbot-bot, EdIII, bLanark, RocketRabbit, TheRealGrogan, Martin Blank, CAIMLAS. drakaan, Dynedain,Lime Green Bowler, Bob9113, wolrahnaes, raju1kabir, mrbcs, gweihir, frovingslosh, tepples, kimvette, Geeky, humanrev, maestroX, phrostie, ElectricTurtle, mattbee, VShael, AndGodSed, jafiwam, i.r.id10t, NeverVotedBush, falconwolf, BrokenHalo, orclevegam, cyberjock1980, gad_zuki!, furby076, jandrese, halcyon1234, Anonymous Admin, houghi, drooling-dog, dracocat, betterunixthanunix, someones, sqrt(2), cratermoon, bmo, fast turtle, Kris_J, SydShamino, Technician, pjkeyzer, srmalloy, schwit1, mrbcs, KingAlanI, ksemlerK, Scorch_, Mechanic, NealBScott, Anubis IV, crutchy, damn_registrars, couchslug, green1, wakeboarder, Gothmolly, lesincompetent, ls671, DigiShaman, P. Don, Yaa 101, qwertyatwork, dehole, Em Adespoton, CAOgdin, schwit1, MightyYar, RJFerret, idontgno, technosaurus, wickerprints, noh8rz10, sexconker, sandbagger, NewWorldDan, Karmashock, aNonnyMouseCowered, Dracos, keith_nt4, networkzombie, jafiwam, JohnFen, SigmundFloyd, EETech1, duck_rifted, The MAZZTer, Anonymous Brave Guy, plasm4, holophrastic, Baki, StikyPad, kermidge, & myself...

    * Same ones I crushed that wannabe raymorris with (after he shot his mouth off about hosts) here http://it.slashdot.org/comment...

    APK

    P.S.=> See subject, & those /. users disagree with you - they use hosts files (you're outnumbered bigtime) + DEMAND for the program (hosted by MalwareBytes' hpHosts no less) has gone up SO much, they had to move to AMAZON UnDDoS'able servers (for both increase in hosts data demand AND for downloads of APK Hosts File Engine 9.0++ SR-1 32/64-bit) - now, when YOU can manage to do the same? MAYBE THEN, I'd listen... apk

    1. Re:You're outnumbered 130++:1 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That silenced BMO perfectly apk. Nothing like facts to do the job.

  63. Use technology to make DSL faster by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Can ghostery/adblock do 17 things hosts do for speed, security, & reliability:

    1.) Protect vs. malicious sites (beyond malicious ads: See 2-10 next)
    2.) Protect vs. fastflux botnets + stop communication to C&C servers
    3.) Protect vs. dynamic dns botnets + stop communication to C&C servers
    4.) Protect vs. DGA botnets + stop communication to C&C servers
    5.) Protect vs. downed DNS servers (adds reliability)
    6.) Protect vs. DNS redirect poisoned dns servers
    7.) Protect vs. DNS amplification attacks
    8.) Protect vs. trackers
    9.) Protect vs. spam
    10.) Protect vs. phishing
    11.) Protect vs. bandwidth caps
    12.) Get you past a dnsbl
    13.) Keep you off dns request logs
    14.) Speed up websurfing (adblocks & hardcoded fav. sites)
    15.) Work on ANY webbound app (stand-alone email programs) multiplatform.
    16.) Give you easy text data for the above
    17.) Do all that & block ads (better than addons) more efficiently in cpu cycles + memory usage

    * #11 & #14 yield more bandwidth/speed you pay for (rest = more security & reliability).

    APK

    P.S.=> Ghostery's Advertiser owned - "A fox guards the henhouse"-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G...

    AdBlock's 4++gb & 100% CPU usage flooring inefficiency -> https://blog.mozilla.org/nneth... + ClarityRay defeats it + it 'souled-out' & is crippled by default paid off to not do its job http://techcrunch.com/2013/07/...

    BOTH do far less than hosts do & less efficiently - hosts by way of comparison, do MORE w/ less.

    Both add complexity/room for breakdown/exploit + from a slower mode of operations (usermode = more messagepassing overheads vs. hosts in kernelmode).

    Hosts start w/ the IP stack before REDUNDANT inefficient addons BEGIN to operate (as 1st resolver queried).

    For the BEST hosts file?

    APK Hosts File Engine 9.0++ SR-1 32/64-bit -> http://start64.com/index.php?o...

    The BEST in the antiviruses (MalwareBytes) http://www.av-test.org/en/news... recommend & host it http://hosts-file.net/?s=Downl...

    ... apk

  64. It changes the choice stats by partofthepuzzle · · Score: 1

    The change in definition means that the percentages of households that have more than one option for broadband has plummeted. Before this, asshat providers like Comcast could claim that there was ample competition and choice for consumers but now it will be undeniable that they have effective monopolies for true broadband in many markets. Props to FCC for making the move. Undoubtedly, it will be appealed as a delaying tactic, even though the FCC is fully within their purview to make the decision.

  65. Minimum Definition Required or NO SALE, ONLY FTTH by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Many of us use dd-WRT enabled firewall/routers that let you see you real ACTUAL BANDWIDTH in real time. We know that 100% of cable companies throttle bandwidth to less than the old definition of broadband (768 Kbps). The reality is much, much worse. In 4 cities with 3 different cable providers, my dd-WRT enabled firewall/router showed that the ONLY time I got the cable company's marketing promise of broadband, was during the Speed Test. The millisecond that speed test ends, cable throttles bandwidth to less than 250Kbps downstream and less than 101Kbps upstream.

    The FCC use to define broadband as bandwidth greater than 768Kbps. You can not find that on their website any longer...think about it!

    Once when I was watching one movie and downloading another (using my harddrive like a VCR Recorder to watch and erase) the cable co's bandwidth pipe did open to a little over 300Kbps, with spikes to 1Mbs. Of course I was paying for either 16MB or 20Mb down, so throttled to less than 300Kbps is pathetic.

    The FCC needs a minimum bandwidth to be considered broadband or high speed. Even the old definition of 768Kbps, if written such that any bandwidth below 768Kbps up or downstream would no longer qualify, would be a huge plus. My unproven theory is that throttling above 300Kbps will NOT cause most High Definition Video to pause your computer while it loads. So a minimum of just 786Kbps would be great compared to today's reality.

    Bandwidth SHALL NEVER fall below 768Kbps during any millisecond of activity or it SHALL NOT BE defined as BROADBAND.

    Without a minimum definition to be considered broadband, nothing they say or do here will matter. As they will just make some other false 'up to' promise that they will ignore and not honor, just as they have since the 1970s....(if their lobbyist had not gutted the Telecommunications Act of 1976, we would probably already be there...).

    FTTH ~ Fiber To The Home. Home owns the pipe, not the city, not the county, not any company. Companies compete at a city/community owned switching (telco) station for a customer's business.

    The real solution is Fiber To The Home, FTTH. Nothing less, not FTTP, not FTTN, not FTT-anything-else, ONLY FTTH. As with 100% FTTH there is no longer a business incentive to perpetuate the scarcity myth, the great lie, in order to raise prices. With FTTH a home owner does not share their pipe with anyone else. The companies compete for the homeowner's business at the switching station, the companies competing DO NOT OWN THE PIPE!

    FTTH means having the same bandwidth upstream as downstream, NO throttling!

    There are less than 39 true FTTH cities. If a community has FTTH, the downstream bandwidth will be the same as the upstream. No 50MB/5Mb, but 50Mb/50Mb, 100Mb/100Mb, 30Mb/30Mb, 25Mb/25Mb, 10Mb/10Mb or 1Mb/1Mb. And that bandwidth will NOT be throttled. There is simply no business reason to throttle, ever.

    DSL is not only cheaper per month, its faster than cable because of this throttling of bandwidth. If you have a non ATT DSL service, get it. It will be better than Cable and cheaper per month!

    As others have pointed out, the oligopoly will fight any FTTH effort in a community, always, however if the community is willing to fight back, 100% of the time they win via the court and get approval for the FTTH rollout. Now some of you live in states where the oligopoly has already passed laws to prevent competition, specifically FTTH competition. My suggestion to you, if you live in one of these 14 states, is to move. The people around you that elected these fools that only listen to the oligopoly will never learn.

    FTTH means good high paying jobs that are in that community because of the Fiber, they will not be offshored or relocated. Good High Paying permanent jobs.

    An added blessing is that those

  66. In the meantime by canadiannomad · · Score: 1

    My 5Mbps connection is giving me a solid 0.2Mbps per the nearest SpeedTest servers....

    --
    Hmm, the humour and sarcasm seem to have been be lost on you.