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Road To Mars: Solving the Isolation Problem

Posted by Soulskill on from the cryostasis-is-not-just-for-sci-fi-and-weekly-meetings dept.

An anonymous reader writes: As space technology matures, new missions are being funded and humanity is setting its goals ever further. Space agencies are tackling some of the new problems that crop up when we try to go further away than Earth's moon. This New Yorker article takes a look at research into one of the biggest obstacles: extended isolation. Research consultant Jack Stuster once wrote, "Future space expeditions will resemble sea voyages much more than test flights, which have served as the models for all previous space missions." Long-duration experiments are underway to test the effects of isolation, but it's tough to study. You need many experiments to derive useful conclusions, but you can't just ship 100 groups of a half-dozen people off to remote areas of the globe and monitor all of them. It's also borderline unethical to expose the test subjects to the kind of stress and danger that would be present in a real Mars mission. The data collected so far has been (mostly) promising, but we have a long way to go. The technology and the missions themselves will probably come together long before we know how to deal with isolation. At some point, we'll just have to hope our best guess is good enough.

94 of 137 comments (clear)

  1. Antarctica by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 2

    Not any more isolation than expeditions to Antarctica in the late 19th and early 20th century.

    --
    http://www.geoffreylandis.com
    1. Re:Antarctica by Mal-2 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Not any more isolation than expeditions to Antarctica in the late 19th and early 20th century.

      Less, actually. There were no telegraph lines on the Antarctic expedition, and I don't know how effective radio was (not very in the late 19th century obviously). Aside from when the two planets are on opposite sides of the sun, communication will merely have high latency. We'll be back to sending podcasts and video messages, not chatting on Skype, but it's still quite a bit better than what those early explorers faced without even leaving the planet.

      When the two planets are on opposite sides of the sun (which is what, a period of less than a week happening less than once a year?), a third point will have to be used to "go around", reducing bandwidth and adding to latency, but it's still better than nothing.

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    2. Re:Antarctica by saloomy · · Score: 1

      Hence the quote in TFS: Future space expeditions will resemble sea voyages much more than test flights.

      I think the issue not as big a problem as the article suggests. The sort of people who will be on the first journeys to other worlds will like have to fight hard to be accepted to go, and endure a hell of a lot of training. Psychological testing and training will no doubt be included along with other preparations for such a mission. That doesn't factor in such as-of-yet-undeveloped advancements like prolonged sleep (hibernation, near-constant earth communication, etc..). Plus, think of how we are communicating in modern times, we text and chat more than face to face communication, and certainly those forms could be accommodated during the voyage, more so than sailors did back in the day.

    3. Re:Antarctica by Chuq · · Score: 1

      Who said Mars One was useless! http://www.mars-one.com/techno...

      --
      - Chuq
    4. Re:Antarctica by Fire_Wraith · · Score: 1

      Nevermind many of the various "voyages of discovery" that European nations conducted from the 1400s onward that went into uncharted territory, spending long times at sea, with the only outside contact being potentially hostile.

      Really though, isolation is only a real problem when you get down to small numbers. One person by themselves will go insane, but a large enough group isn't exactly unusual or unnatural. How many people do you really deal with in an average day, after all? The only real question is what comprises a healthy number. I'd say if we get somewhere in the 6-7+ range, it's really not going to be an inherent issue psychologically (personality issues and such may vary, of course, based on which people we're talking about).

    5. Re:Antarctica by Hussman32 · · Score: 2

      From a communication standpoint, I agree. But Antarctic expeditions always had the expectation of water, air, and probably fish, availability, which are valuable and scarce resources in space; the environment is challenging but they could survive. On a Mars exploration not having the ability to survive in the natural environment would be terrifying, and I think that would increase feelings of isolation.

      --
      "Who are you?" "No one of consequence." "I must know." "Get used to disappointment."
    6. Re:Antarctica by mi · · Score: 1

      Or India (including "West Indies") in 15-16th centuries. People just went — profit-driven — without the luxury of even the radio communications (however high-latency) with homes and families.

      And, on the subject of Antarctica, it just seems crazy to go through the trouble of settling Mars (or even Moon) without settling Antarctica first. It is so much closer, easier, and cheaper — and yet remains empty and unpopulated...

      A few other areas (Siberia, Australian Outback, American Midwest, Sahara) also have a population density on the order of a decipinkie per hundred square miles — despite being vastly more habitable than Mars.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    7. Re:Antarctica by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      When the two planets are on opposite sides of the sun (which is what, a period of less than a week happening less than once a year?), a third point will have to be used to "go around", reducing bandwidth and adding to latency, but it's still better than nothing.

      I've seen most of the plans indicate a relay sent to Earth's L4 or L5 so that even when on the opposite side of the sun, communications would be uninterpreted, though the delay would be at its peak.

      --
      Learn to love Alaska
    8. Re:Antarctica by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      Who said Mars One was useless! http://www.mars-one.com/techno...

      Will never happen. Not even their "space relay communications satellites." Noah Money" will see to that.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    9. Re:Antarctica by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      Better to wait for the Antarctic ice cap to melt, then we can move all the people from what used to be the worlds' coasts there.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    10. Re:Antarctica by silentcoder · · Score: 1

      > It is so much closer, easier, and cheaper — and yet remains empty and unpopulated...

      Under international law all nations have agreed not to lay claim to Antarctica or attempt to settle it. Only scientists doing research are allowed to live there and even then they aren't allowed to remain permanently.
      Short of the UN suddenly being disbanded, world war 3 happening or some other equally massive disruption in the social fabric of the world Antarctica won't be settled. It's got nothing to do with practicality of doing so - we are more than capable of making it livable, it's a decision we made not to do so because it's the ONLY continent humans had not settled and leaving SOMEWHERE in it's without-humans-changing-everything state is a a pretty important piece of conservation.

      As it stands there is constant pressure to alter the law, revoke it or create loopholes because Antarctica has valuable resources (for one thing there is evidence of large oil reservoirs existing below the ice) and there are those who desperately want to get their hands on those resources for profit.
      So far they have not succeeded, I hope they never do. Regardless of all the known harms of fossil fuels which is NOT a matter of opinion or politics but of solid evidence based science versus pseudo-scientific decepticons, conservation is also important - and this is something that's been recognized even in the USA since Rooseveldt's days.
      We don't NEED to settle antarctica, we don't need to disrupt the existing ecosystems there. Can we leave ONE continent on this planet alone ? Why do we have to take EVERYWHERE ? What makes you think we have that right ?
      We're not that special - we are just another animal. A monkey whose delusions of grandeur has been something of a self-fullfilling prophecy. We have a whole universe to explore, and we NEED to do that because science tells us our time on this planet is limited. Sooner or later the universe will throw another giant rock at us, or another giant ball of ice, or something else - and human life on planet earth will end (probably along with just about every mammal and bird). It's happened to every species before us, it WILL happen to us as well - we can't stop EVERYTHING that could cause our extinction.
      The question is - when it does - will that be the entire human population ? Or just the small percentage living on the homeworld ? Personally I would prefer the latter - and the first step is settling the moon and mars as the nearest, most easily reached and most readily teraformable bodies in our solar system.

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
    11. Re:Antarctica by Bongo · · Score: 1

      We're not that special - we are just another animal.

      Slight quibble: you might think it is safe ground to claim that, but we have no idea what sentience is nor how it works nor which creatures have it. Is an ape sentient? Is an ant sentient?

      Claiming we are "human" or "ape" or "just an animal" is about as proven as claiming we are "God's children" or "living in the matrix" whatever other claptrap. We know we are sentient of the world, but we haven't located sentience IN the world. We know that what we experience can be altered by altering the brain, but what is doing the experiencing is unknown. The brain is the TV. But what is experiencing the TV picture? This is not a trivial problem to be overlooked. We don't know what we are. Would you still feel you if you were not sentient, but otherwise a human going about behaving like any other human? Just "human" instead of "human being"?

      But that aside, yes by all means let's go to space.

    12. Re:Antarctica by bigpat · · Score: 1

      I would like to see one or more antarctic bases become more self sufficient as a way of moving us towards an understanding of what it would take to sustain a human colony using local natural resources in a completely inhospitable environment. Basically, Antarctica just has air, ice and some rocks once you get away from the coast. What would it take to create a self sustainable human settlement there and could those lessons be applied more generally to the moon, Mars or Venus?

    13. Re:Antarctica by AmazingRuss · · Score: 1

      ... or heading west along the Oregon Trail.

      Have we really become a bunch of pussies?

    14. Re:Antarctica by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      it just seems crazy to go through the trouble of settling Mars (or even Moon) without settling Antarctica first.

      The company that gets the first Moon base will have a captive workforce and no pesky government interference. It will be a libertarian's paradise. Plus, they get to lob rocks at the Earth if anyone argues with them.

      I'm not sure, but I think someone wrote a book about this.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    15. Re:Antarctica by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      Antarctica just has air, ice and some rocks

      And the Moon and Mars have only the last of these.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    16. Re:Antarctica by bigpat · · Score: 1

      Maybe there is a better alternative than a test colony in Antarctica if the real problem is being able to mine and process small quantities of rocks for necessary materials. Just set up in a barren area with access to a variety of minerals and see if you can bootstrap a small mining operation utilizing solar for power and small/micro scale industrial facilities that rely on minimal oxygen (ie no combustion).

      The problem statement is: Find the least amount of equipment you need to transport to the site in order to be able to utilize local resources to supply a human colony with the necessary materials it needs to become established and grow. Even better if you can establish and grow the colony so that people can arrive later to an already established infrastructure.

    17. Re:Antarctica by mi · · Score: 1

      Better to wait for the Antarctic ice cap to melt

      Even before that happens, Antarctica is much more habitable for humans than Mars.

      move all the people from what used to be the worlds' coasts there.

      If you want to talk about Global Warming, please, start by citing some successful predictions made by that "settled science" in the 20-30 years, that it has been talked about.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    18. Re:Antarctica by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

      The opening of the north-west passage good enough for you?

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    19. Re:Antarctica by mi · · Score: 1

      The opening of the north-west passage good enough for you?

      No idea, what you are talking about. Please cite the actual prediction (one link) and its materialization (second link).

      And no, a single successful prediction, whatever it is, is not enough to validate a scientific theory — so be sure to have a few... Thank you.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    20. Re:Antarctica by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      Nevermind many of the various "voyages of discovery" that European nations conducted from the 1400s onward that went into uncharted territory, spending long times at sea,

      "uncharted" does not equate with "unoccupied".

      A couple of years ago, my commute to work included an 8 hour boat ride starting from port passed by Vasco de Gama on his outward trip to Calicut ; at that time, the port had been established for several centuries by Arab slave traders.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  2. Basement-dwelling Introverts by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

    So just send people who are happiest sitting at the same keyboard for days if not hours on end, with minimal human interaction. Problem solved. Surely we can find some smart ones who would be worth sending, if we can pry them out of their homes.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    1. Re:Basement-dwelling Introverts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      This.
      Introverts barely have an issue with being alone in the slightest.
      I literally see no problem but one of their own creation.

      And if they have no intros, just send them all up with occulus rifts and a good VR suit an VR Suite to boot.
      Boom, never get bored and can go anywhere.
      Look for people with not only skills, but hobbies.
      Not all intelligent people have the emotional and mental maturity of a 5 year old. You just have to look for them.

      Big Brother is not a reality show, it is an unreality show.
      Design space for people to go to. Sure it will cost billions to make a large ship, but again, that is why the VR is a much cheaper and affordable option.
      VR suites will almost certainly be the realistic solution to this problem, it is very doable now.
      The mind control not so much for now, only at a very basic level, but you don't need that level of interaction, just anything to get away from that nagging moron who said your theory was wrong. That dick.

    2. Re:Basement-dwelling Introverts by ColdWetDog · · Score: 2

      If only Doritos were good at blocking gamma particles ...

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    3. Re:Basement-dwelling Introverts by baegucb · · Score: 1

      Well, in the 1970's I spent two winters in the Canadian bush. Not much human contact like TV or radio. I'd see someone on their snowmobile every once in awhile when the weather wasn't too cold. It's do-able. (and I did something similar in the 90s). I'd really rather be around other people, but I could do it. They just need to choose people who fit the correct profile.

    4. Re:Basement-dwelling Introverts by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

      we also want people who are physically fit though

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    5. Re:Basement-dwelling Introverts by Cramer · · Score: 1

      Except you had all the resources that come with being on Earth -- air, water, various critters to eat. And, most importantly, you knew, at the end of the day, you could always hike your ass back to civilization: you were not alone, certainly not to the extent a dozen people in a capsule on target for Mars will be.

    6. Re:Basement-dwelling Introverts by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      Doritos don't do well. But Mountain Dew...

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    7. Re:Basement-dwelling Introverts by silentcoder · · Score: 1

      And who can get through the door of the capsule. And who won't increase the fuel budget by 40% due to the amount by which their mass exceeds the design expectations...

      --
      Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
    8. Re:Basement-dwelling Introverts by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      And who can get through the door of the capsule. And who won't increase the fuel budget by 40% due to the amount by which their mass exceeds the design expectations...

      That should be simple enough to address if you start ahead of time, just give them some skinny people poop transplants.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    9. Re:Basement-dwelling Introverts by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      So just send people who are happiest sitting at the same keyboard for days if not hours on end, with minimal human interaction.

      The truth is, that kind of person is damn near the worst choice possible and the polar opposite of the kind of person you need.
       
      You don't need someone who can't or won't deal with individuals. You need someone who can deal with forced close quarters interactions with individuals while also being able to deal with near complete isolation from society. These are two very different kinds of people.
       
      The crew of a Mars-bound craft will invariably be forced into contact with each other due to the small size of the vehicle. On top of that, they must come together as a team because much of what they'll be doing will be done with close coordination in close proximity to each other. Someone who willingly isolates himself (or worse yet deliberately isolates himself) psychologically and socially from his crewmates over a long term is thus more of a liability than an asset because he'll have a hard time coming together and remaining as part of the team (if he can do so at all).
       
      The latter (near complete isolation from society) is actually the difficult part. Unless they're truly out at the end of the bell curve (and thus edging on being mentally ill), all but the most introverted basement dweller has email, guild chat, chatrooms, forums and blog comments, social media, and other forms of real time or near real time communications. (Not to mention shared experiences and events as raids, game releases and updates, movie releases, etc...) They've isolated themselves from close physical contact with individuals, but they're still in close social and psychological contact and interaction with society. (Very few people actually willingly completely cut themselves off from society.) Onboard a Mars bound spacecraft, that close contact and interaction (fostered by real time and near real time communications) and those shared events and experiences will be nearly completely absent - not just due to speed-of-light delay, but due to limited communications bandwidth.
       
      Disclaimer: Former SSBN crewman, been there, done that, got the t-shirt. (Or at least about as close as you can get without actually being an astronaut.)

    10. Re:Basement-dwelling Introverts by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      This is exactly right: only send introverts. They're generally happy with small groups of familiar people anyway, and don't need lots of socialization.

      On top of that, make the mission bigger. Have at least a dozen people, or even 20, and that really should be plenty of interaction to keep everyone happy. If you can't afford to build the ship big enough for 20 people, you can't afford the mission.

    11. Re:Basement-dwelling Introverts by meta-monkey · · Score: 1

      But, but, the ping times...

      --
      We don't have a state-run media we have a media-run state.
    12. Re:Basement-dwelling Introverts by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

      relevant username

      --
      intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  3. Virtual Reality by Atheraal · · Score: 1

    'Nuff said.

  4. ISS studies by Kevin+Fishburne · · Score: 1

    The ISS crew stays in their tin can for six month stints and seem to get along fine (from what we know, anyhow). A trip to Mars would take about six months. We know from interviewing prisoners what complete isolation will do to someone (and it's not good), so assuming a crew to Mars had at least four people I'm not sure there's a significant problem to solve here. Obviously the crew would have to be vetted and have prior experience in this type of situation (such as on the ISS), but as long as they're not sending random volunteers (ahem, certain other attempt to get to Mars) I think they'll do just fine.

    --
    Buy your next Linux PC at eightvirtues.com
    1. Re:ISS studies by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The ISS crew stays in their tin can for six month stints and seem to get along fine

      Six months is not a year, and a year is not three.

      Now, we are sending up a guy who will be there a full year, so we may see other things. Subtle (or not) effects of neurosis is almost a certainty. But such isolation could bring out more serious manifestations.

      I think studies of prison inmates in isolation would probably be useful.

      --
      If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
    2. Re:ISS studies by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 2

      Just send ONE person. Someone who enjoys being alone and has their own projects to work on to keep them entertained. No interpersonal friction. A lot fewer resources required. Throw in a decent digital library, a stock of antidepressants, and you're good to go.

      --
      "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
    3. Re:ISS studies by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Depending on who you ask, most prison inmates are already insane, so studies into them may not have generalizability. Also, solitary denies them light, toys, tech, and other things. Not just human contact. In fact, they still get human contact. Depending on location, "solitary" also includes one hour a day outside, as it's otherwise considered cruel. The guards handing off food aren't mutes.

      --
      Learn to love Alaska
    4. Re:ISS studies by quintessencesluglord · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I think studies of prison inmates in isolation would probably be useful.

      Not really. Solitary confinement is more a study in sensory deprivation. Child molesters are pretty much cut off from most social interaction, lest they get beat to death, but while away their time reading books, doing crafts and like, and most importantly, have a definite release date, so they get by okay with limited social interaction.

      A man can endure most anything as long as he knows it will end eventually, and he has something to occupy himself.

      And even then, I'm not certain the emphasis on socialness is all that it seems to be. There is a persistent myth that all humans require social interaction, but they never differentiate it from sensory deprivation, so it is hard to say what exactly they are measuring. More than social interaction, people require novelty and new things to occupy their time. Several people are perfectly at ease with never seeing another face for years at a time. What is going to be hard is seeing the same face, especially locked up in a tin can hurtling through space.

      Antarctic research stations usually sign on for 6 month stints. Several usually sign on again and again, so it's clear that the right tight-knit group is able to go long periods without much outside interaction. The data is already there. You just have to be smart enough to look for it.

    5. Re:ISS studies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I could hang out on Slashdot all day and nobody would know I wasn't on Earth.

      I'll look for your "First Post!" down in the middle.

  5. Scale issues by ceview · · Score: 2

    I still think the scale of human mars missions are too small. They need to first develop the engineering to make rotating spacecraft to produce around minimum 0.376 g ( mars gravity), but 1 g craft would be more helpful longer term. To be rotating at less than 1 rpm to avoid nausea means a radius of over 200metres though. But at least with that set up there is more potential living/storage space. The more living space the more people and isolation becomes less of a problem. The larger scale the more protection (especially against radiation) and redundancies of systems can be in place in the event of failures along the way. Ultimately you want a long term project that goes back and forth from Mars to Earth on a regular basis. Something like an extension of the ISS.

    1. Re:Scale issues by TheReaperD · · Score: 1

      I fully agree. The problem is political and social will. We're so obsessed that everything return on their ROI in less than a year, preferably less than six months that a large scale project is considered an anathema to our current "values" (a.k.a. worshipping the almighty dollar/pound/etc.). I really wish we had the will to explore like we did in the 60's but, I don't see it anytime soon and that makes me very sad. The truth is that the advancements we made then are what created the information age and all that was made possible by the push to space and the moon but, since those advancements took a decade or more to make a lot of people mp

      --
      "Be particularly skeptical when presented with evidence confirming what you already believe." -
    2. Re:Scale issues by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      To be rotating at less than 1 rpm to avoid nausea means a radius of over 200metres though

      It doesn't need to be less than 1 rpm. Less than two is low enough that it would be virtually impossible for a human to notice Coriolis effects internally (they still might be able to notice their morning coffee slowly stirring itself). 90% of people would be pretty comfortable at anything under 7 rpm. That lets you have a radius of about 7 meters to simulate Mars gravity. The kind of person who couldn't take that couldn't take a gentle sea voyage and would be screened out. Aside from that, the craft wouln't need to be a giant space wheel, you could just have two tethered craft rotating around a common center.

  6. Re:Isolation!? by phantomfive · · Score: 2
    Yeah, but according to the summary:

    The technology and the missions themselves will probably come together long before we know how to deal with isolation.

    That is very optimistic. There are a lot of problems more difficult to solve than the problem of isolation. As mentioned, it's similar to the problem of a long-term sea voyage.........

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  7. This why Mars One is a doomed concept by wired_parrot · · Score: 1

    And this why the Mars One mission would never work - putting together people who are committed to dying in a distant planet far from any of their loved ones would make for the worst type crewmates you'd want together in a mission.

  8. ancient sea voyages WERE Suicide Missions by turkeydance · · Score: 1

    or a 50/50 chance...most were financed privately (privateers?)...with the goal of riches (with better odds and much more danger than a lottery ticket).

  9. Existing study groups by Darinbob · · Score: 1

    Can't the scientists just study various IT departments around the planet?

  10. 200 Miles up is not far away by sjbe · · Score: 1

    The ISS crew stays in their tin can for six month stints and seem to get along fine (from what we know, anyhow).

    They get along fine but they also are only 200 miles from Earth and could come back down within a few hours/days in an emergency in most cases. Any trip to Mars is going to be substantially more isolated and getting home will be months if not years if possible at all. Radio to the ISS is more or less instantaneous. Close to Mars there would be 8-20 minutes of latency. While we can get useful info from the ISS astronauts, it isn't the same as a Mars mission. Not even close.

  11. Find a way to have internet access by Trachman · · Score: 1

    If station in Mars could have internet access, many of the people would not know the difference. They could have Facebook, email, wikipedia. Internet signal lag would be 1000 seconds or approx 15 min, but internet access is possible. To be precise lag will be between 3 to 22 minutes, depending on the location in the orbit. You can surely play chess, trade stocks, read news and leave voicemails.

    Heck, NASA can already sponsor invention of new type of games where delay in decision making is built in. Quite frankly these type of delays already resemble tactical military operations where outcome of the order is not immediately known.

    The next milestone will be invention of instant, quantum entanglement based communication. Where is the next genius who will find a way to transfer information in an instant.....

    1. Re:Find a way to have internet access by sectokia · · Score: 2

      The Internet would be essentially unusable, it would take hours just to establish a tcp connection.

    2. Re:Find a way to have internet access by Chuckstar · · Score: 1

      Interplanetary Internet

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I...

    3. Re:Find a way to have internet access by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      You proxy on both ends, it'll take 1ms to establish a TCP conection, and 1000 seconds to get a ping response. Tunnel UDP in the middle. You are assuming that because you don't know the answer, the answer is impossible. There are hundreds of off-the-shelf commercial devices that can do that today. It's a know, and solved problem.

      --
      Learn to love Alaska
    4. Re:Find a way to have internet access by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I really doubt that would be enough to make crappy websites like Facebook work. Facebook is almost unusable over a geosynchronous relay, because the programmers make too many stupid summations. All of this new AJAXy stuff would get very confused by your proxy or would be super slow. Images and things that only load as you scroll would be a nightmare.

      On top of that NASA is very bureaucratic and security conscious. There's zero chance open internet access would be allowed. What you'd get is some subset. Email is easy. You could probably even relay YouTube. But a general purpose web connection even via a proxy? No way.

    5. Re:Find a way to have internet access by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      FB is broken. The low timeout, stateful HTTP that isn't, embedded content and such wouldn't work. But it doesn't work for many on Earth. The mobile site should work better, but I've not worked with that on a caching system. The Internet would be usable. Even if all the sites don't rock it.

      And who cares what NASA thinks, if the trip is privately funded, or co-funded in a way that allows some private access?

      --
      Learn to love Alaska
  12. The "Right Stuff" was a myth of the Cold War by sjbe · · Score: 1

    Now it's just a bunch of privileged rich kids playing with taxpayers toys ... no wonder it's forty years since we accomplished anything great!

    Well if you want to restart the Cold War I'm pretty sure you'll be able to get all kinds of funding. The Cold War was 99% of the reason we made it to the moon.

    We don't even have a real space station yet, what a joke.

    If you think the ISS isn't a "real space station" you should probably put down the Babylon 5 DVD and come visit the real world.

    1. Re:The "Right Stuff" was a myth of the Cold War by Trogre · · Score: 1

      If you think the ISS isn't a "real space station" you should probably put down the Babylon 5 DVD and come visit the real world.

      I have no idea what the OP was talking about there either, but perhaps he was taking issue with the ISS being in close proximity to Earth. So close in fact that Earth's gravity at the ISS is nearly 90% of that at sea level - it's only the freefall orbital velocity that gives the effect of zero-g.

      Not that makes it any less a space station in my book. Just not a Deep Space station perhaps...

      --
      "Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
  13. No "IP" laws on Mars! by CanEHdian · · Score: 1

    Mars will need a good Deep Space Internet connection with Earth with no extended black-out periods so there will be a 24 minute delay tops (and about 4 minutes best-case). So I can send a message home and have a 3D virtual reality video reply back within the hour. That's not really isolation.

    One thing that needs to be taken care of is to make sure there is no copyright or any other form of so-called "intellectual property" on Mars. Not only will this save lifes by not having to worry about patents / design marks and whatever they come up with next, this also allows the Martians to have complete, full access to whatever media they want (think U.S.S. Enterprise-class storage systems with "the complete cultural accomplishments of planet Earth"), and create and share freely among themselves.

    --
    When the copyright term is "forever minus a day", live every day like it's the last.
    1. Re:No "IP" laws on Mars! by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

      One thing that needs to be taken care of is to make sure there is no copyright or any other form of so-called "intellectual property" on Mars. Not only will this save lifes by not having to worry about patents / design marks and whatever they come up with next, this also allows the Martians to have complete, full access to whatever media they want (think U.S.S. Enterprise-class storage systems with "the complete cultural accomplishments of planet Earth"), and create and share freely among themselves.

      When sample-based hip-hop is only legal on Mars, only Mars will have... wait, what was the down side again?

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
  14. Isolation by tquasar · · Score: 1

    TLDR. There will likely be a team of three. Space travelers are highly trained and there is always something to do. They will be monitoring gauges and systems aboard the craft.

  15. Setting up a new planet. by MrKaos · · Score: 3, Insightful

    People will die. It's that simple. It is not safe, it is not known and mars is an environment hostile to human life. For the first people doing this, isolation will be another issue to deal with.

    It seems like an unrealistic ambition to attempt a Mars landing without an established space transport infrastructure, in the same way moon landings were attempted. Consequently, IMHO, I think any realistic colonization of Mars will start with humans orbiting it. First in a capsule/ship, then in a space station with repeatable journeys back home. Who knows, it maybe cheaper to just send a space station there in the first place and solve all of the problems of not having a magnetosphere to shield it first.

    Once the infrastructure is established isolation will become less of a problem. The biggest problem we have NOW is the will to get human crewed craft out beyond LEO.

    --
    My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    1. Re:Setting up a new planet. by AK+Marc · · Score: 2

      Colonization will never happen. We can't grow a human population on Mars. There is no food, and not enough air.

      --
      Learn to love Alaska
    2. Re:Setting up a new planet. by phantomfive · · Score: 2

      More pictorially, colonizing the ocean will be easier by an order of magnitude than colonizing Mars (side note: 'order of magnitude' when used with no units means nothing more than "a lot")

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    3. Re:Setting up a new planet. by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Yes, and despite many ambitions about ocean habitats, nobody has ever made one.

      --
      Learn to love Alaska
    4. Re:Setting up a new planet. by kenwd0elq · · Score: 1

      You're right; all of the people who go to Mars will die.

      Of course, all the people who stay here on Earth are ALSO going to die. And while it's quite likely that the ones who go to Mars are likely to die sooner than the ones who stay behind, that isn't quite so certain - and we'll learn lots of stuff about Mars, and about ourselves, in the attempt.

      In his book "The Right Stuff", author Tom Wolfe noted that all of the streets at Edwards Air Force Base were named for dead test pilots. Getting out of bed and leaving home, and going into space, or out to sea, or even across town; these things can be dangerous. We can't attempt to avoid all risks and still remain human.

  16. London Times Advertisement by tomhath · · Score: 2
    Probably a legend, but it might work

    Men wanted for hazardous journey. Low wages, bitter cold, long hours of complete darkness. Safe return doubtful. Honour and recognition in event of success.

  17. Solution by pushing-robot · · Score: 2

    Go up with Bethesda's current RPG. You'll be back before you finish it.

    Seriously, though: cp library_of_congress /media/box_of_microsd_cards. Read books. Watch movies (and binge on TV seasons). Play games with your crewmates. Teach yourself something. Watch recordings from friends and family, record clips to send back. Invite tech companies to develop push versions of their services; they can't buy publicity like astronauts checking Facebook from Mars.

    It's hardly isolation, and six months will go by before you know it.

    I guess our biggest challenge is getting to Mars before our collective attention span has decreased to the point where we can't survive without minute-by-minute feedback from our social circle.

    --
    How can I believe you when you tell me what I don't want to hear?
  18. we could have AI companions by circletimessquare · · Score: 1

    I'm Sorry Dave

    I'm Afraid I Can't Do That

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  19. Re:Why is this even a problem? by BarbaraHudson · · Score: 1

    It's not a problem for most people, but I bet the people they're going to send include faggots who can't go a week without putting their erect penis up another man's anus.

    That's probably by design - they don't want people giving birth to kids with severe radiation damage from the get-go.

    --
    "Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
  20. Re:Isolation!? by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011...

    There's a guy who unintentionally got stuck somewhere and didn't see anyone for 70+ days, no ill mental effects. He's not the only one with a simlar story. I remember reading a case from a magazine (pre-Internet, and I'm not finding it, but that one kept popping up), where someone lasted months. At the end, he went a little crazy, but he also hadn't eaten for months, so they attribute the craziness to the lack of eating, not the lack of human companionship.

    People don't have to have constant contact with others. It shouldn't be hard to select those from the ample numbers of applicants. When I retire, not having to deal with people on a regular basis will be at the top of the benefit list. I'll just need to get the groceries delivered. With orders to leave them on the doorstep.

    --
    Learn to love Alaska
  21. Re:Prisons by AK+Marc · · Score: 2

    Isolation from humans is different than a prison isolation from everything. On the trip they'll have movies on USB and laptops, messages to send home and get from home. Completely unlike any prison experience.

    --
    Learn to love Alaska
  22. Obligatory Ren & Stimpy: Space Madness by jsepeta · · Score: 1

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    --
    Remember kids, if you're not paying for the service, YOU ARE THE PRODUCT THAT IS BEING SOLD.
  23. Choose the right people by wnfJv8eC · · Score: 2

    There are many people that are not 'people' persons who are scientists and engineers (one one assume they'd be on the mission). Make that personality type a selection criteria. I have gone many days without talking to anyone and really been fine with it. Proof would be easy, just check out the phone and cell phone records.

    1. Re: Choose the right people by neminem · · Score: 1

      Nice troll.

      Introversion *is* a thing. You might not believe it (or you might just be a troll), but plenty of people actually don't want nonstop social interaction, and voluntarily choose to be left alone. They may not even be ostracized at all!

      Now, do introverts want to be 100% alone all the time? No, they usually have a few friends they see fairly often, and are usually happy to be more widely social every so often, just not all the time. But mostly they would be just as happy having a few friends, and *not* ever going to big parties or anything, too.

      I doubt a Mars mission would only send a single person, so, mission accomplished? (As far as this one problem, which seems tiny compared to all the jillion other bigger problems with sending people to Mars, goes.)

  24. Re:Isolation!? by jblues · · Score: 2

    There was a Japanese soldier who stayed in the jungles of Lubang island, Philippines conducting guerrilla operations for 30 years. He saw a leaflet with a message from locals that the war had ended in 1945, but decided it was false. Further messages were dropped by plane some time later, but it was concluded that this was allied propaganda. Some 30 years later they sent his captain into the mountains to personally instruct him that the war was over and finally he surrendered, returning home a hero. So while he did have some interactions with people, they were all hostile.

    --
    If it acquires resources on instantiation like a duck, then its a shared_ptr<Duck>
  25. Isolation is the tip of the iceberg by ipsender · · Score: 1

    Unethical to send people on a lonely, hazardous journey? That may be, but to send a solitary craft with a small number of explorers borders on simply bad planning. It is a plan which does not include redundancy. Sending a small flotilla, with multiple crews, capacity to transfer personnel between ships, and capacity for each ship to carry the whole expedition human crew, would provide redundancy in the event of a ship or ships becoming unserviceable. It would mitigate the boredom/loneliness problem, and increase the probability of the whole crew being able to return safely. Space is dangerous and things go wrong. The Apollo series demonstrated that. Early explorers learned to take several ships to increase their chances of survival.

  26. You talkin' trash 'bout me again? by Hartree · · Score: 3, Informative

    "Basement-dwelling Introverts"

    That's completely untrue.

    I don't spend much time in the basement any more. I've become allergic to the mold down there.

  27. Re:Isolation!? by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

    So, roughly 30 years alone time, no ill effects (as far as the reports go). That's about right. The requirement for a person to see hundreds every day is a lie invented by extroverts that consider happily alone people to be insane.

    --
    Learn to love Alaska
  28. Re:Isolation!? by jblues · · Score: 1

    Well he sounded kinda crazy/Japanese to begin with, but according to Wikipedia adjusted well upon return to high density urban living in a technologically advanced country. And to new-found fame, publishing an autobiography "No surrender, my 30 year war". He died last year at the age of 91, suggesting that genetics and not diet might be responsible for characteristic Japanese longevity and/or that 30 years of eating Jungle fodder is equally healthy. http://edition.cnn.com/2014/01...

    --
    If it acquires resources on instantiation like a duck, then its a shared_ptr<Duck>
  29. Re:Isolation!? by jblues · · Score: 1

    Ah, hang on: After his return to Japan, he moved to Brazil in 1975 and set up a cattle ranch. Yup, a loner.

    --
    If it acquires resources on instantiation like a duck, then its a shared_ptr<Duck>
  30. Use bubbleheads by BigT · · Score: 1

    Since the trip is most like an ocean voyage, send submarine sailors. They're used to being isolated for long periods of time while being reasonably self-sufficient. They know how to manage their environment and deal with emergencies.

    Just don't send anybody with them that isn't used to their sense of humor.

    --
    Is it weird in here, or is it just me?
  31. Thanks for the info.. by franciscoeduca · · Score: 1

    Thanks you, have a nice day :) http://www.educa.net/curso/cur...

  32. Send Me by cyclomedia · · Score: 1

    Years of relief from people jabbering on about soaps, football, reality-tv, fashion, relationships, breakups, the weather and their dog? Oh god yes please!

    --
    If you don't risk failure you don't risk success.
  33. How is this a problem? by Maury+Markowitz · · Score: 1

    Why does anyone even think this would be a problem?

    Did the Homo Erectus walking from Africa to Asia in small family groups often murder each other?

    Did the Polynesian cross-pacific crews commit suicide en-route?

    Did the native americans all go crazy while crossing the land bridge on the way to becoming native americans?

    Does this ever happen on submarines?

    NASA has been worried about isolation, sex, and infighting since the 60s. Maybe they should stop asking themselves what will happen, a large group of nerds probably isn't the first place you go to find out about these topics.

  34. Magnificent isolation [Re:Antarctica] by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 1

    Not any more isolation than expeditions to Antarctica in the late 19th and early 20th century.

    Wrong. Hobart is 7 days sail away. Sthn NZ is even closer.

    Now. That's why I said " in the late 19th and early 20th century."

    Back then, they would get frozen in, winter-over stuck in ice, and in the following summer, do the exploration.

    --
    http://www.geoffreylandis.com
  35. A new problem? Not at all. by argStyopa · · Score: 1

    You know, humans have operated in isolation on long, dangerous trips in very small groups regularly throughout history: for example, the voyages of exploration throughout the 16th-18th centuries.

    I suspect that those only are remarkable in the level of documentation, and that primitive peoples did it a lot - a small group of hunters (or simply explorers) would depart and come back weeks or even months later. The fact is that the earth was a large, hostile, and relatively empty place for much of human history.

    This really isn't a terribly new problem; likely the answer in how we deal with it successfully lies somewhere in those examples.

    --
    -Styopa
  36. There is no isolation problem anymore by tchdab1 · · Score: 1

    The problem now is how to provide sufficient bandwidth so that tablets and phones can be used indefinitely as a distraction. Think of a trip to Mars as just a really long line to wait in.

  37. Re:Prisons by painandgreed · · Score: 1

    Isolation from humans is different than a prison isolation from everything. On the trip they'll have movies on USB and laptops, messages to send home and get from home. Completely unlike any prison experience.

    They'll have work. They'll be scientists in a highly specialized and unique lab with unique opportunity. Like people in the ISS, anybody going to Mars on a space craft will have a laundry list of things to do, things to research, and otherwise things keeping them busy. They'll probably need off time to do nothing just to keep them sane. Their job won't start once they get to Mars, but well before they get on their way, and it won't be over till well after they get back to Earth.

  38. The Martian (book) - Andy W by Steve+Hamlin · · Score: 1

    Just a plug for a book I just finished, a great read about a near-future manned Mars mission that goes wrong and strands an astronaut on the surface - fast-paced, lots of technical details, sometimes funny. I couldn't put it down.

    The Martian, by Andy Weir.

    http://www.andyweirauthor.com/...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T...

  39. Rum, Soddomy and the Lash by rustl · · Score: 1

    "Future space expeditions will resemble sea voyages much more than test flights, which have served as the models for all previous space missions."

    Learn from experience, the Royal Navy had it worked out generations agao.

  40. Libertarians on the Moon (Re:Antarctica) by mi · · Score: 1

    The company that gets the first Moon base will have a captive workforce and no pesky government interference. It will be a libertarian's paradise.

    Except, in the book it was a nightmare — both for Libertarians and others — exactly because the government, in the person of Warden, interfered with everything.

    Granted, any monopoly — corporate or governmental — is likely to lead to a nightmare, but a prison-Warden backed by the armed prison-guards is among the worst systems imaginable.

    And, no, there was no "captive workforce" in the book either — the residents (though not the prisoners) had a variety of job-opportunities. The book's author was very well-versed in Economics...

    Would you like me to disabuse of any other misconceptions about Libertarianism or Heinlein? Just ask...

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
  41. Re:I think we can do precisely that! by Josepdin · · Score: 1

    Agreed that we should simple send them. There will be a huge number of people, qualified and otherwise, standing in line to be the first to Mars.

    --
    TV-MA - the Beginning: "Ward, don't you think you were a little hard on the Beaver last night?"
  42. Cheaper and less Dangerous by pebear · · Score: 1

    Just keep sending the rovers, robots and satellites and keep human kind safe and sound on planet earth. Mars is a place that is not hospitible to human life. Not enough atmosphere to shield from radiation. Not enough O2 to breathe. The average temp is -80 F. I experienced that temp once on the planet earth and I never even want to feel any approaching that temp. I though -60 was cold until I felt -80. No way too cold. Not to mention there is no food or even running water. I think what we have been doing is working. If you want to send people to a lifeless place send them to the moon. Lot closer to earth but still a long way from home. Even sending people to Antarctica is a longs ways away from civilization and if emergency surgery is needed you are screwed.

    --
    Paul E. Bahre
  43. People will die... by hinckeljn · · Score: 1

    If you really wanna go, someday, maybe... 1. Start with the Moon. Grow a robotic settlement there... energy grid, and communications. 2. Have the robots build a shirt sleeve environment; inflatables or a cave. 3. Settle some people( at huge cost initially) and learn to produce some basic needs from the land (oooopps, MOON)! 4. ....