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Cashless Adoption Growing In Europe
dkatana writes: Many European cities are moving toward a cashless economy. Some public services are not accepting cash anymore, such as parking meters, buses and transit, and city offices. (If you plan to visit Europe make sure your credit card has a chip, or you won't be able to use self-service machines.) Contactless cards, which allow people to pay easily for small transactions, are also gaining popularity. According to Finextra, a leading financial news service, "contactless is the new normal in Europe, with more than a billion tap-and-go purchases worth €12.6 billion on Visa cards in the last 12 months."
In some places, cashless options are being pushed by mistrust of the banking system. At the same time, places like Germany are dead set on keeping cash as the preferred method of payment.
Just saying.... :D
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
Cash isn't going anywhere. As soon as the lights go out or the servers are down... you can only can with cash.
Here is a tip: if you don't trust banks, keep cash. Ask the Greeks and Cypriots why.
Governments everywhere will help facilitate a cashless society. Just think of all that purchasing data they can monitor. Not to mention, they can force people to pay local/state/federal sales tax on person-to-person sales (e.g.: Garage Sale items).
....
A truly cashless society is the wet dream of the IRS, FBI, NSA
Some things need to be said...
I wonder if this is a foreshadowing of the UK becoming the first to implement mandatory ID chip implants?
Political correctness is really just herd psychology pushed by insecure people who desperately seek social conformity.
These EMV cards, as they are called, are a new standard in the US, and are now usable in the rest of the world. The problem is that the authentication is still by signature, no PIN, making them useless as a security device. The one advantage is that your credit card will no longer be giggled at in Europe.
A cashless society is a surveillance society where every purchase you make is recorded permanently -- not only for government to use against you as they see fit, but for corporations to exploit your lack of privacy for their own profit (not yours).
I bought a used car with cash. The owner gave me a reduced price vs check. I got a good deal, he got the cash he wanted.
I carry cash around for tips, so I make sure the waiter/waitress gets theirs.
I buy food with cash at the local farmers market because its faster than paying with a card. They prefer it as well, there is a cost adder for them to take credit.
Seems more like mistrust of local currency because of inflation is pushing people to use US dollars. Alternately, the push for credit cards that transact in US dollars. So, pretty much they are placing all their trust in the banking system as far as I can tell.
Chip & PIN will be here soon enough. When users finally give up on signing with a swoosh, and pin like they do for debit.
deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
Wire transfers are extremely common in Europe; virtually instantaneous, cheap, etc. Customers can do them themselves, person to person.
Here in the US? Anywhere from a day to WEEKS for absolutely no legitimate reason. You generally need a teller or branch manager to do it. At least $5; $40 if the transaction ends up going through the Fed.
It's 2015. Why does transferring money in the US take more than a minute and a few cents?
Please help metamoderate.
Actually, the transaction costs are not that high. Those "extra" costs are offset by businesses not needing people to handle cash and, especially, checks. Less employee theft of cash. No bounced checks that have to be handled by third-party recovery companies. Businesses, particularly small ones, come out ahead when they go cashless.
Some things need to be said...
They offer you no interest because you have the alternative of paying with cash, which affects their negotiating position. If cash transactions are made illegal, fees on electronic transactions will go up, because as a customer you have no choice but to accept the fee. There's a huge difference between cash being less preferred, and cash being illegal or otherwise encumbered.
While it's true that in London the buses no longer take cash (you'll need an Oyster card) that's not the case everywhere - not even everywhere in England. But in many parts of most European countries (yes, Europe isn't even a single country) cash is very much king and it's wrong to assume that a credit card will be universally accepted. Many restaurants outside of cities in lots of countries won't take plastic. So it's wise to have enough cash to cover a transaction, even if you do expect to pay with a card.
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
In case you didn't know, the cards that most banks are now issuing in the US are chip and signature, not chip and pin like in Europe, and I understand that there are some spots that DO NOT accept chip and signature, like unattended tolls, unattended gas stations, and possibly some unattended transportation ticket purchases (trains, etc).
Pretty frustrating that credit card issuers decided to go this route in the US with some bullshit justification that people wouldn't know how to use the cards (WTF?).
While the chip and signature is more resistant to skimming and duplication, it is no more secure than the old magnetic stripe cards if your physical card is stolen. I think they did this to prevent an increase in support costs instead (people requesting to reset PIN numbers, etc).
See, with cash, all you can lose is what's in your pocket. With these cashless systems, a crook can clean out your entire bank account.
Fraud protections? Ahahahahaa! See, while they are investigating the theft, your mortgage and other bill payments are bouncing. Now, the mortgage company and everyone else who was being paid charges you late and other fees. When you try to explain to them what happened, they just say, "Fuck you! Pay me!"
Although, the CFPB here in the States has been a WONDERFUL agency (God Bless Elizabeth Warren!) for helping with the unethical and illegal bullshit that the banks and other financial institutions have been pulling. But the Republicans want to eliminate that wonderful agency because they have been bribed by the big banks and because of their delusional belief in the Free Markets.
... Those "extra" costs are offset by businesses not needing people to handle cash and, especially, checks. Less employee theft of cash. No bounced checks that have to be handled by third-party recovery companies. Businesses, particularly small ones, come out ahead when they go cashless.
I agree. And public administration, especially transit authorities, is going that way to stop paying big bucks for cash handling services. The cost of moving money around is enormous.
I use a cc for some purchases.
I NEVER use a debit card...
Since the Target debacle, and many more like it, I have transitioned back to using cash almost exclusively.
It appears to me that a cashless system is less robust and more likely to be taken advantage of by criminals.
So yes, cashless apologists will whine about things like bank robberies, etc, but when it comes to what is best for me, not the bank, I choose cash please.
We play the game with the bravery of being out of range
Governments worldwide, local and federal, increasingly are removing the ability to use cash. They cannot track it or you. Think that's tin foil hat thinking? Think again.
Here is something I know for a fact is happening because I've talked to people in the industry that tracks metrics. Your bank sells information about you to bidders. Your purchase habits, how often, what, where. Guess who is curious and is a buyer? Your insurance companies, health, car, and house. You think for a second your rates are random. They were on the past based on a given area and the demographics. They are now being tailored to you. Those triple meat pizza you order a few times a week are being noted. The condoms, liquor, and glue you buy are likewise noted. The fetishes you have, your peccadilloes, your predilections, you name it are all being tracked, correlated, and used against in decisions about you. Some people know of this, some don't.
When I eat out, I pay cash. When I buy wine and beer, I use cash. When I buy groceries, I use cash. I pay bills and such through my bank's bill pay system. Think this is not happening? Think again. Think your insurance companies don't look at your Facebook and Twitter accounts? Think again. This level of tracking is the new normal. Ever wonder why businesses want you to "friend" and "like" them? Ulterior motives, guys. To be certain. If I cannot pay cash, which, at least in America, is illegal not to accept, I don't play ball. I never give out my personal information, even to coworkers. Only my immediate boss has my mobile number, even the insurance companies don't have my SSN. They are not legally entitled. It took some fighting, and I called the SSA about it, and they said I only have to share it legally with my bank, my employer, and the IRS. No one else is legally entitled. So I refuse to give anyone anything. Yes, I'm a bit of a dick about it, but when I Google myself, my carefully curated life doesn't exist. Except for my name and address, nothing exists.
Some say that nothing having an Internet presence in the form of Facebook, Twitter, Linkedin is damaging, especially for IT guys like me, but I've been in this industry for almost 20 years and have never had an issue with not being found online. Some say increasingly that employers look at all the usual online places and if they cannot find you, you are not worth hiring.
Use cash as much as you can.
They did it as the credit card market is more competitive in the States. Many people have several cards, and the issuers felt that requiring people to remember a PIN would make it less likely that the shopper would choose their card.
Setting aside cryptocurrencies, TFS is ludicrous. We mistrust the banks, so naturally we support moving in a direction that absolutely forces people to use financial institutions to facilitate basic transactions! Who do they think are going to be managing the deposits and transactions? Privacy? Forget about it. When everything is electronic, the government will be able to monitor everything beyond bartering.
The issuer chooses how they authenticate
The card and payment machine interact on the most acceptable common choice, or, give up.
"Hi, I'm a Credit Card issued by Foo Corp Bank. I prefer Chip & Signature, but I can also offer just Chip only"
"Hello Foo Corp Credit Card. I'm afraid I'm a vending machine, I offer Chip & PIN, or Chip only for small transactions"
"OK. Chip only it is"
"OK, I talked to Foo Corp Bank and they said XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX, I want to charge your owner $3.45"
"Thanks, OK then, YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY"
"Great, nice doing business with you.
If you have a US "Chip & Signature" card, and plan to use unattended payment in Europe, make sure your bank understands what you expect to do, and has issued a card that agrees to Chip only transactions when told a signature is impossible. Or better, get one that has Chip & PIN. Because if your card stubbornly requires a signature, and it's talking to a vending machine in a cheap hotel it will get told to fuck off.
Good to see you guys catching up on credit cards. When are you going to finally modernize your banking system as well? ;)
Anyway, I can attest to the point of this article, in Iceland you see those little portable card readers (I don't know what they're called in English, they look like this) everywhere, whether it's someone walking around between tents at a campsite collecting the day's fees or some unknown band playing a little gig in a bar - a lot more often than you see them in the states.
"You see, Government is a system that is based on weapons." -- Timster
My mother sometimes sends me checks from the states. The bank cashiers are always confused by them and have to get their managers, who eventually sign off on them. The last time I was at the bank with a check the cashier spent several minutes insisting to me that they can't accept checks before going back and getting approval.
Checks have no place in this modern world.
"You see, Government is a system that is based on weapons." -- Timster
My wife just got her Capital One "Chip+Signature" card. Last month my Santander (MA) debit card was replaced for another magstripe only debit card, Exp. 2019 Some banks are not catching up..
I'm a Retail Manager A Chip & Pin transaction at the till takes 30 seconds from triggering, Maybe 1/2 to 1/4 of the time for a properly checked Signature. Contactless (which is now at least 10% of my sales) takes 15 seconds. Across thousands of card transactions per day this is moving people through my tills faster meaning I have to have fewer people serving to keep customers moving at the same rate. ANY card that requires only signature that is used to pay in my store has to be verified with a telephone call as a matter of company policy, and we see maybe one such transaction per month. The burden of getting it wrong rests with my store, UK banks now take no responsibility for Signature card fraud.
Full Disclosure: yes, I live in Europe.
The largest cashless credit card payment system in France (Moneo) was just closed down very abruptly. Seems the whole ''cashless''/''contactless'' thing was just not profitable enough -- and not adopted enough -- to be continued.
Read all about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
In a place like Greece, for instance, it is well known that the vast majority of transactions are paid in cash, not using a credit card or anything.
I would take that kind of article with a large grain of salt on the side. Seems to me some bankers are declaring victory even before the war has started...
The right to offend is far more important than the right not to be offended. (Rowan Atkinson)
Bartering has been making a comeback lately. Including businesses trading services with each other and ditching the cash aspect of the transaction.
I've reset the PIN on a UK card. I'm pretty sure you can do it at most ATMs.
If you have a US "Chip & Signature" card, and plan to use unattended payment in Europe, make sure your bank understands what you expect to do, and has issued a card that agrees to Chip only transactions when told a signature is impossible. Or better, get one that has Chip & PIN. Because if your card stubbornly requires a signature, and it's talking to a vending machine in a cheap hotel it will get told to fuck off.
Much more importantly than a vending machine in a cheap hotel, a machine selling metro or train tickets.
My experience in the UK (where I live) is such machines require a PIN even for small amounts (£2), but in Germany it's only required for large amounts.
At a large station and/or in commuting hours there might be a ticket office open, but you can't rely on that.
I live in Canada and I use debit for EVERYTHING. I will debit a purchase of less than a dollar, seriously. There is no service charge to use it and this way I don't have to have a pile of change in my pocket. It is much easiest to keep track of my purchases as they are all on my online statement. I never carry cash. I use my credit card only for online purchases.
I recently went to the states and I noticed so many people still using cash. However, the bigger surprise was how many people used credit cards to pay for everything! (a beer at the pub, put it on credit) No wonder their financial system was in ruin back in 2008. I used my CC while in the states for the most part to avoid carrying cash. I noticed that they don't use the chip / pin. I was never asked to input my pin for my CC once while in the states. I found this odd. This has been standard in Canada for a few years now.
Whether cash or credit, it's all controlled by a cartel of banks.
Sure... governments love cashless transactions (assuming they're traceable, and most are). But the real motivator for people to switch away from paying with cash is the convenience factor.
For example, this morning, I used a smartphone app to pay the parking meter in the garage I parked in before going in to work. It still lets you pay with coins, but that's so impractical. For starters, it costs about $8/day to park, and the meter won't even let you put that much money into it using coins, at one time. So you're forced to make a trip back out to the meter to re-fill it if you want to avoid a ticket. With the cashless payment system, you just point the phone's camera at the QR code sticker on the meter, and you get billed automatically based on when you tell the app to stop counting time (or when the max. daily parking rate is reached).
Same with the toll booths around here. Most have eliminated the option to pay tolls with cash except for one lane, and they're even discussing removing the baskets from those and going all electronic. Which is easier and more convenient? Making sure you've got a bunch of coins handy in your vehicle and having to stop and toss them into the toll basket, making sure it counted them all properly -- or just driving on through while an electronic pass device registers you going through it?
IMO, the real solution here is an *anonymous* cashless transaction system. (Cue the bitcoin fanatics insisting that's exactly what they've got ... but not quite, since people are able to go back through the block-chain and sleuth out who moved money between accounts at a certain time.) I'm talking more about an official government and banking system sponsored e-cash alternative though. But I know it'll never see the light of day since government would have no motivation to spend effort and money designing a system with the very properties that frustrate them now with cash.
Those aren't that common in the US. Instead it's more common to use a smartphone or tablet with a small card reader dongle that plugs into the audio jack.
My only complaint with this more over to chips in the cards, is that the new cards with the chip, no longer support contact pay. I was using contact pay for years, but that option has now been removed. This has gotten me to start using Google Wallet/Pay.
The more I read about Germany the more I want to move there, "convenience is the death of liberty".
Going cashless is stupid.
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
I personally almost never carry cash any more, the only time I really use cash is when out drinking or going to a really tiny corner shop/off licence where they still charge extra to pay by card. I use an oyster card for my public transport (or my debit card if I'm out of credit), and pay for most my small purchases using contact less, I can pay for parking by phone, and I still have a debit and credit card for anything bigger.
Why would I pay for any high value goods in cash, when I can put it on my credit card, get chargeback protection and still not pay any interest on it?
You are proud of being dependent on the system? If there is a a power outage or if the debit system goes down, good luck getting anything without cash.
I recall being at a movie theatre lining up to purchase tickets for a popular title when the debit system went down in the area. Fortunately, I had cash so I was able to get into the theatre and see the film while all of the "winners" with only debit and credit cards got to go home.
Do not bother calling yourself an adult if you do not carry around enough cash in case of an emergency or just simply to pay for really small purchases.
Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
Good to see you guys catching up on credit cards. When are you going to finally modernize your banking system as well? ;)
Oddly enough, over that last decade I have spent a lot of time in Germany and there were still many small shops that don't accept cards due to the fees, while cards had already become almost ubiquitous in the US.
You'll also find that stored-value cards for things like transport are increasingly common and often the only way to get the best-value fares. However, the card will likely have limited geographical scope (eg the London Oyster Card), so if you're travelling widely you'll need a bunch of them or pay higher fares.
While these schemes may make life easier/cheaper for locals, they can make life for visitors increasingly complicated.
Mind you, these supposedly transnational card networks have always been rather parochial. A lot of years ago I came across an ATM in Germany with a handwritten signed attached saying "Nur Deutschen Eurokarten"...
For many years, US banks thought that it was cheaper to eat their losses on fraud from unchipped cards rather than join the modern world with chip-and-pin. The Target breach seems to have changed some thinking there, but the current chip-and-signature cards only help a bit. You're able to use them in European restaurants, grocery stores, etc. No need yet for a chip card if you go to Asia or the South Pacific, except in Burma (Myanmar) and Bhutan, which are mostly cash economies.
I continually request a chip-and-pin card from the banks where we have credit cards. I've told them all that I will move all of our credit cards to whichever bank is first to replace my current card with a chip-and-pin variety of the same card. If you want chip-and-pin, call the toll-free number on the back of your credit card(s) and make your request.
Cash transactions aren't linked to your name and stored in a database forever, and the cash in your pocket can't be deactivated by banks or a government.
(Yes, some smart Alec will point out ways to track and block bank notes, but this is waaaaaaaaay more difficult and waaaaaaaaaaaay less effective than what banks and governments can do to electronic money.)
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In the U.K. you must spend more than GBP 5.00. EUR 7.16. 7.80 USD. before you are allowed to use a debit card, or credit card in shopping centre/shopping complex/shopping mall.
You pulled that out your arse. I live in the UK and use my Debit card all the time and there is *no* simple rule like this, although in my (very considerable) experience the most common case is 'no minimum and no surcharge' for debit cards.
I've also seen the following for Debit cards:
Min £10
Min £5 (common in pubs but not universal)
Min £3 (e.g. one of my local sandwich shops)
No minimum at all - this applies in nearly all major supermarkets and major stores - I bought a sandwich for £2.20 with my card this morning).
No minimum but 50p transaction charge.
Etc.
And then there's a whole different set of charges (sometimes % charges) or lack of charges for credit cards.
Why would you just make up random shit about stuff you obviously know nothing about? Did you go in one shop in the UK once and assume they were all the same?
Right, because that happens all the time. And, yes, I know it has happened...but only about as frequently as an AC posting something insightful.
Just another day in Paradise
> For contactless, we have Apple Pay / Google Wallet
Who's "we" pale face?
I won't be giving those companies control of my money, thanks.
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Except the credit card is issued by the bank, can be revoked by the bank, is processed through the bank, and is probably linked to a bank account. I'm scared of snakes, I'm going to jump into the pit of vipers!
https://www.wellsfargo.com/chi...
So are those cards not Chip and PIN by virtue of... "Sign *or* enter your Personal Identification Number (PIN) if prompted." ?
Life is not for the lazy.
If you plan to visit Europe make sure your credit card has a chip, or you won't be able to use self-service machines.
No, bring cash! We use debit cards for purchases since most people don't have or use credit cards. Especially smaller shops will refuse your business when you come in with a real credit card and only intend to purchase something below 100 Euro.
Good luck with your Visa or Amex over here ;)
Everyone who buys Wild Hunt will receive 16 specially prepared DLCs absolutely for free, regardless of platform.
Yeah, they have the portable card readers next door in Canada.
Actually, the chip on my AmEx Blue card is TOO advanced for some vendors. The reader wouldn't take the magstripe because it somehow detected that it was a chip card, so the vendor had me stick it into the contact reader. However, AmEx just upgraded my card to the RFID and got rid of the contact reader a few months ago due to "security reasons". So... my fancy new chip card wouldn't work and I had to pull out my old FCU VISA magstripe backup card instead.
I don't know why the RFID would have less security issues than a contact patch, though, but I'm sure there are decent exploits for each... probably more interesting ones with the proximity radios.
Cash won't disappear unless the intent is to cripple the economy. After all, it's easier to slip someone a hundred euro that trade electronic payment details. And I doubt if the EU gov't office drones will accept debit cards for bribes.
My wife just got her Capital One "Chip+Signature" card. Last month my Santander (MA) debit card was replaced for another magstripe only debit card, Exp. 2019 Some banks are not catching up..
Chip and signature? Is that an American thing? Here in Canada, we went from Swipe and signature to Chip and PIN years ago. The only time our system required a signature with the chip was for the first use.
Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
In many places outside the US and europe store owners give a discount if you use cash rather than a credit card. There are significant costs to accepting credit cards. In my country merchants get hit with 6-8% + chargeback costs, thus have a 8 to 16% overhead for accepting credit cards vs cash or bitcoin.
Or that they wouldn't remember secondary PINs. I was recently on holiday, my VISA card that I use regularly is no problem but at one hotel it wouldn't work. I also had a Mastercard as backup, but I didn't remember the PIN and somehow they didn't want to/was able to do the signature + ID thing. So I paid in cash, oh well no business for Mastercard.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
From that page, it sounds like Wells Fargo did the right thing and enabled PIN as well as signature. Good to know for the future if I need a US credit card with chip and pin. Thanks!
In case you didn't know, the cards that most banks are now issuing in the US are chip and signature, not chip and pin like in Europe, and I understand that there are some spots that DO NOT accept chip and signature
My understanding is that it is a two part process. The US is doing chip and signature for a few years and then will transition to chip and pin once the hardware all transitions. The purpose of the transition is due to a legislative change that puts the liability for transaction fraud on the weakest link in the card processing chain. If the card is EMV capable (chip and pin/signature) and the card reader is magnetic swipe, then the merchant bears the liability on accepting the swipe. If the merchant has EMV terminals and the card is magnetic swipe only, then the card issuer is liable. Most people in the US would not know their credit card PIN unless they routinely make cash advances. In a year or two the banks will start issuing or forcing people to reset their PIN somehow.
Wow, that's pretty dire. Most "expensive" processors here in the states are ~3%. Paypal Here, Square, and a couple others are basically wooing very small businesses with the ability to process credit, but it costs more than the typical 2.5-2.7% charged to large account holders who process directly with major banks.
Cash is still king though, as it's not the credit card fees that matter but rather the government who tacks on the 15-25% fee for use of their military, roads, banking system, and various and sundry other services. Cash can be recorded or not, as you see fit.
Bitcoin does me no good as I have to both pay to have it converted to hard currency and take the risk that it will devalue significantly in the time it takes to make the conversion. Today alone, interday fluctuation of the value of bitcoin was 3%, and 14% in the last week. There's no value in that kind of uncertainty in my income.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
1 - open a new account under worse conditions
2 - somewhere else, as in: with another bank.
I'd be tempted to close that account immediately but if the conditions are so much better . . . do it in a couple of years.
Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.
Good point, I think I remember reading this justification as well. Oh well, give the customer a substandard product that doesn't cause them any inconvenience.
If I'm in a queue to pay in a supermarket, the ones that take the time are the ones who use their cards.
I also spend a lot of time in Germany and pretty much the only times I use a card is when it is to be charged to the company or when the amount exceeds a couple of hundred Euros.
Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.
Thanks for the confirmation, and additional info about the bike rental stations. I don't think the Target breach had anything to do with the move to chip cards. There was a deadline established years ago for everyone to move to the new system by October 2015 (in most cases). This article has some pretty good information on this shift, and current progress.
Let us know which banks you've found so far that are issuing chip and pin cards. I've been following this for a while and looked a few months ago and they were very rare. However, someone commented further down that Wells Fargo cards are both signature and pin, which is pretty cool.
Not in here. There is no charge at all to change the PIN. You can do it at the ATM itself it's just like changing your password in any web site.
Now forgetting the PIN on your card and requesting a new card might involve a fee...
The damn thing showed up with only a mag stripe and a 2017 expiration date. This is well after all Target stores switched to chip-compatible readers (after their data breach) and it is well known that the standard abroad is chip and pin.
Even so...my friend on the trip had a Chip+Signature card which was equally annoying. Sure, they can read the chip instead of the magstripe, but they still have to go and find you a pen (waiters often didn't carry them with the CC reader since nobody has to sign things anymore). And it doesn't work on vending machines for things like parking or train tickets since it doesn't have a PIN.
Bottles.
While I kind of agree with your sentiment, the signature in chip and signature refers to the signature you have to make on the terminal, not the signature on the back of the card.
That's not always the case. Regarding the actual exchange rate, I had read before that the exchange rate on card transactions are more favorable to the traveler than doing a cash exchange (likely because of the volume that the banks do).
Regarding the extra fees that some banks charge on foreign transactions (many charge 3%), thankfully not all banks charge that! For instance, Capital One is one of the few that does not charge a foreign transaction fee to their cardholders.
That's interesting. I would like to learn more, if you have any references you can provide. I vaguely recall reading something to that effect, but I think I wrote it off as being either subtly implied, or just conjecture on someone's part, or it being dependent on some onerous pre-conditions. In other words, it seemed to me to be something that was not very likely to happen. I would love to get some confirmation otherwise.
I do indeed live in Europe, and I pay for something with cash maybe once every few weeks. ATM (maestro, instant bank account transfer) card is used for everything in my country, from groceries to parking meters, to buying a car. Even random tiny vendor at backwater music festival will have a mobile card machine accepting them. Unlike some other countries there's no minimum acceptable amount for carding.
Credit cards are now accepted in most places as well, but certainly far from all, and there may be an extra fee. It depends on the card machine really, most card payment machines these days (fixed as well as mobile), regardless of the venue, will accept credit cards as long as they have both a chip and the PIN functionality. But every once in a while you'll encounter an old machine, or a machine with a slot that doesn't fit the credit card's extra height due to the relief of the numbers on it.
My American friends keep trying to convince me their credit card system is better, with all sorts of benefits if you play it right, insurance, etc. But we have consumer protections laws here that mean you don't really need that insurance, benefits are just costs siphoned somewhere else, the extra % for the charge is just thrown away money, and I like that my checking account immediately reflects spent funds.
What do I still use cash for? The increasingly rare parking meter that only accepts coins, and for leaving tips. Once in a while I'll pay somewhere in big bills just to get little ones and coins back to leave for tips in restaurants and bars. That is one thing the US does infinitely better: you can write the tip amount on the check. I really don't get why that system hasn't been adopted here, as I (and all the other locals) will always pay with our cards, and if no cash is on hand, no tip will be left (adding the tip to the carded amount usually means the money goes to the boss, not your waiters and chefs and whatnot). Of course, our waiters are actually paid real-people-wages unlike the US, but still.
I would love to get some confirmation otherwise.
See Four for information about how the EMV transition will work. Basically there are two entities involved in determining whether to use chip and pin for each transaction. The card issuer has to issue a PIN for the card. The payment processor has to have hardware and infrastructure to verify the PIN in order for the chip and PIN portion to work. The payment processor works on behalf of the merchant accepting the transaction. Everyone wants to pass the financial responsibility of fraud up the chain from merchant to the card issuer. Eventually the US will transition to chip and PIN just to avoid liablity.
There are, at the moment, three issuers of PIN-preferred cards in the United States: United Nations Federal Credit Union, First Tech Federal Credit Union, and Harvard University Employees Federal Credit Union. The first two anyone can join by first becoming a member of a particular nonprofit association. Given a choice, I would go for First Tech (or the Harvard Alumni card if you qualify) since they offer no foreign transaction fees and support all PIN variations (where the PIN can either be verified by the card itself or over the network by the bank); UNFCU only offers no foreign transaction fees on a card with an annual fee (you'd have to decide for yourself if the annual fee is worth the other additional benefits).
There is one other PIN-preferred option, the Diners Club MasterCards issued by BMO Harris Bank. However, they stopped taking applications several months ago and haven't resumed, so they're not an option at present if you don't already have it.
Two other fairly large issuers, USAA and Navy Federal Credit Union, were offering PIN-preferring cards but switched to Signature preferring.
But one question to consider is if you need a PIN-preferring card, or merely one that supports PIN? In the latter case, you'll still sign most of the time but if you encounter a situation where a PIN is required, it will work. Bank of America, Citibank, Wells Fargo, and Synchrony Bank (they issue a lot of affiliate branded cards like Walmart and Banana Republic) all fall into this category. A PIN preferring card would allow you to more easily blend in in Europe, but for now would actually be harder to use in the US; particularly in restaurants since even those that have switched to EMV card readers are still doing the thing where they take your card away from the table, so you'd end up having to go with them to wherever they have the terminal set up to enter your PIN, rather than being like Europe and Canada where the waiter has a portable credit card reader that they bring to your table.
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It's not a legislative mandate in the United States. The liability shift is a policy change by Visa, MasterCard, American Express, and Discover to entice merchants and card issuers to switch to EMV.
I have heard some speculation that the US is doing a phased migration and will eventually to a switch to Chip and PIN, but nothing definitive. I know Chase had said they would change, then put that off after customer testing supposedly showed a preference for Signature over PIN.
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We've had PIN since at least 1992, and most people don't expect to be able to change the PIN or most likely never ever thought about it.
I guess it used to be fused in at the factory. Making it rewritable just adds complexity and perhaps a security issue.
That's funny, I just linked the same article above and had not noticed this point because I was looking for something else! Anyway, thanks - it's encouraging to hear that they seem to be planning to go all the way to chip and pin, and that some banks are already issuing cards for both signature/pin.
I hope that they won't eventually try to push fraud liability to the consumer, as apparently they do in Europe! I definitely wouldn't put it past the financial industry though.
Super informative post - thank you very much! I think you pretty much answered all my questions. I appreciate it.
All cards support chip only transactions. The problem is that not all self service unattended machines will support it, some are set up to require a PIN in all cases. But not all American cards support PIN.
Visa has a mandate that self service unattended kiosks support chip only, but I have little faith that they'll be able to enforce that mandate, or at minimum, that changes will be made promptly (the mandate was supposed to have gone into effect this month).
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If you're mistrust is with the banks, how does using a cashless system avoid that? Now ~all~ of the transactions have to go through banks faster and more frequently than with cash.
Am I missing something in this?
--- no sig to see here... move along.
Is cash REALLY that fucking HARD for you guys?
I mean, fuck, SERIOUSLY, can you not just stuff a few bills and coins in your pocket like EVERY SINGLE MOTHERFUCKER SINCE THE DAWN OF TIME HAS DONE?
What the fuck.
All you're doing is giving up your privacy, giving up more of your LIFE and PERSON to be BOUGHT SOLD and CONTROLLED by THE MAN.
All you people demanding "cashless" are just a bunch of STUPID fucking SHEEPLE.
Fuck you, and fuck the GOVT and CORP TEAT you all are sucking on.
Grow some balls and become independant, not dependant.
Fucktards.
You're welcome. You might find this FAQ on a subreddit I help moderate useful too:
https://www.reddit.com/r/chipc...
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They may not accept credit cards due to the fees, but debit cards are accepted more and more widely, even in Germany. The difference is that a credit card provider will take a percentage of the sale (so cutting directly into your margin), while a debit card transaction may cost a small, fixed fee. It is not uncommon to see a minimum amount for plastic payments.
The Netherlands has a long history of PIN payments and they even encourage you now to pay electronically for small purchases (like a bread at the baker, a drink, a magazine) so apparently they have been able to drive down the price of plastic payments very low. For shopkeepers, the less coins and notes there are in the drawer, the better.
I suppose in the US shopkeepers collectively increase their prices to compensate for the credit card 'cut'.
"Fix it? It has been disintegrated, by definition it cannot be fixed!" - Gru in Despicable Me.
I suppose in the US shopkeepers collectively increase their prices to compensate for the credit card 'cut'.
Correct, prices reflect the average cost based on how much cash and credit transactions they typically have, although some gas stations still do have a higher price for credit card vs cash. Europe seems to be catching up in that regard, accepting that cost at more and more places and using the cards. That's nice for me because its less Euro cash I need to mess with when there.
Dude, your vault has internet access too?
"If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear." - Every fascist, ever
I just got back from a 6-day visit to Iceland. For the first time visiting a foreign country, I completed the trip without needing to acquire any local currency. I paid for everything using my US-based credit card using chip and signature. A couple of transactions (pay and display parking) were automated without any need for either PIN or signature.
Around here it's about 95% card swipe, 5% cash only. And this is in the northeast U.S. I do know merchants all over are going to have to upgrade their card hardware to be able to accept chip and pin by 2016 though.
I wonder how that impacts things like Square reader - lots of smaller merchants use that now.
And I'm in the southeast New England.
Reading between the lines I get the feeling that you don't like credit cards.
You know you can pick PIN numbers right? There's no reason why different cards need different PINs. The PINs can typically be changed at any ATM.
Transport? Small transactions? Way behind the times Europe.
In México, the presidency was bought with prepaid supermarket cards.
A Cashless society is a Surveillance society - Absolutely.
This is why several governments actually put restrictions on cash purchases:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jo...
1000 Euros ceiling already exist in France and Italy for cash transactions. Bank withdrawals totaling over 10'000 Euros per year also get reported !
Cash payments, like bank secrecy, is what allows lambda citizens to keep a bit of privacy. When payments become traceable (1'000 € limit today), and important withdrawals are reported to authorities (10'000 € yearly limit), it is not drug dealers but the middle class that is targeted. The 1% richest and the powerful are still able to use other tricks to launder their money.
Bitcoin does me no good as I have to both pay to have it converted to hard currency and take the risk that it will devalue significantly in the time it takes to make the conversion. Today alone, interday fluctuation of the value of bitcoin was 3%, and 14% in the last week. There's no value in that kind of uncertainty in my income.
You are correct that bitcoin is far more volatile than the USD and does indeed have several shortcommings. A few points of clarification though:
You don't need to pay anything to convert BTC to Fiat , as merchant processors like coinbase and bitpay don't charge anything for this
You don't need to pick between Fiat and Bitcoin. You can use both and save a lot of money. When bitcoin is down 5-10% I spend my fiat, when it is up I spend Bitcoin and everything just became cheaper. In fact I can already save 20-30% on amazon with bitcoin , so spending it when it appreciates makes everything 25-40% cheaper!
Americans are spoiled because the US dollar is a relatively stable reserve currency. There are many countries that have currencies with insanely high inflation (vs US low 5-8%)and more volatility than Bitcoin. In fact, on a week a week basis bitcoin was more stable than the euro for 3 months this year.
Since cash is working out so well for you, how much do you think my Reichmarks are worth these days?
Yeah, they just started issuing out new VISA cards, but to my knowledge, MasterCard has yet to be on the ball. I'm sure the fiasco with Target and Home Depot had a lot to do with the push.
Life is not for the lazy.
http://creditcardforum.com/blo...
Life is not for the lazy.
Cool, thanks for this FAQ too!
Yeah, I hope that those breaches lit a fire under some people's asses. I was hit by both of them, and more (like 3 or 4) in the span of a year or less.