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Why Biking Injuries and Deaths Are Spiking In the US

HughPickens.com writes: NPR reports that more and more adults across the U.S. are strapping on helmets and hopping on bikes to get to work. Unfortunately, between 1998 and 2013, the rate of bicycle-related injuries among all adults increased by 28 percent, from 96 injuries per 100,000 people in 1998-1999, to 123 injuries per 100,000 people in 2012-2013. And while the death rate among child cyclists has plummeted in the past four decades, the mortality rate among cyclists ages 35 to 54 has tripled. Dr. Benjamin Breyer isn't sure what's driving the surge in accidents among Generation Xers and baby boomers, but one reason could be what's known as the Lance Armstrong effect. "After Lance Armstrong had all of his success at the Tour de France, a lot more people were riding, and there were a lot more older riders that took up the bicycle for sport."

The most recent National Household Travel Survey showed that the vast majority of the increase in bicycling between 1995 and 2009 came from Americans older than 25, with the biggest increases coming in the oldest groups. That has meant more men in their 50s and 60s on road bikes, riding at high speeds, Breyer says — a recipe for serious injuries. Though a rapidly growing share of older people would like to ride, American cities built during the last 60 years don't make it easy for most people to do so. At the end of the day, reducing cycling accidents may boil down to something simple: Making sure that bikers know the rules of the road — and that drivers know how to deal with bikers.

696 comments

  1. [smack my face] by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Perhaps this has something to do with the fact that these older age groups show similarly troubling statistics for accidents while driving motorized vehicles. Hmm....

    1. Re: [smack my face] by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      You got it backwards dumbass. The "older age group" mentioned in the article is 35-54, which has the lowest accident rate for motorized vehicles.

    2. Re: [smack my face] by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You: The "older age group" mentioned in the article is 35-54

      So which article were you referring to? As when you say "the article" I don't think you're paying attention.

      Article: "with the biggest increases coming in the oldest groups."

      is the anchor text to http://www.peopleforbikes.org/blog/entry/bike-use-is-rising-among-the-young-but-it-is-skyrocketing-among-the-old,

      which includes a finer break-down of age groups (than, apparently, "the" [other] article you're referring to); in "this" other article, the grouping which starts at 35 years only goes to 44 and there are 4 groupings of ages **above** the given, finer 35-44 range. The very next age-group given, however, is 45-54.

      It's 55 that probable hazards to public and health and safety from drivers *begin* to manifest with older folks--but which remain lower than, say, a teengaer.

      Personally given all the missing data in this summary and in the article--who taught this person to graph, leaving a gap of a year between each age group? (graphing in English publications is inclusive at the beginning of a range and "up to" at the end)--I read "older groups" sanely and conservatively--I took the top two groups (together constituting a range of 65-84), not coincidently which begins at the age when senior drivers tend to become a *serious* risk to public health and safety as was being widely reported and studied in media and at top-notch research universities (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-05-02-older-drivers-usat1a_N.htm) until groups like the AARP began lobbying for distractive propaganda to tell us all about how older people's other decisions are safer + some generic example like their "High incidents of seat belt use" (http://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/older_adult_drivers/) and that they're involved in more fatal crashes due to their own fragility (http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/older-drivers/qanda). Of course, the habits actually may just mask the problem...but perhaps not quite as much as does the fact seniors drive less--adjust for the relative infrequency and their rates of serious violatiosn and accidents almost match that of new teens' driving. i.e. in the actual act--when it counts--they're generally (as a group) just as bad, and unpredictably are wildcards to become horrific incidents any moment rather than as a group being one you would expect to improve.

      Now beyond this, some reading comprehension: why in the world would you think "these older age groups" would refer to the group whose lower bound is 35!? Even in the article you apparently refer to, this is what they write surrounding "with the biggest increases...oldest groups":

      with the biggest increases coming in the oldest groups. That has meant more men in their 50s and 60s on road bikes, riding at high speeds, Breyer says — a recipe for serious injuries.

      And that same text links...the same article in this summary that breaks-down groups with more granularity.

      So this dumbass is...well genuinely curious.

      Regards, ;)

    3. Re: [smack my face] by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      The "older age group" mentioned in the article is 35-54, which has the lowest accident rate for motorized vehicles.

      Well duh, it stands to reason you can't ride a bike and drive a car at the same time.

      I wouldn't put it past some people to try, mind.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    4. Re: [smack my face] by Darinbob · · Score: 0

      That's because cycling culture refuses to obey traffic laws.

    5. Re: [smack my face] by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, I should not have called you dumbass because your assertion was on-topic, relevant and based on popular belief.
      However, I think you are wrong.

      Here is the age-related motor vehicle accident rate.
      http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s1114.pdf
      See table 1114, and the column "accident rates per number of drivers"
      The accident rate goes down with every decade of life. Older drivers get into fewer accidents.

      You assertion that the increase in death rate for the 35-54 age group is similar to troubling statistics for older drivers is backwards from the data.

      FWIW, here is the actual source of the 35-54 bicyclist fatality rate has tripled number:
      http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6431a1.htm
      The 55-74 and 75+ brackets have a lower fatality rate than the 35-54 bracket. This suggests that older riders are somehow safer than younger ones - the opposite of your assertion that the problem is age related.

      What about the fact that fewer old people ride bikes? Now I'm rethinking my stance regarding older bike riders safety.
      According to the linked article:
      http://www.peopleforbikes.org/blog/entry/bike-use-is-rising-among-the-young-but-it-is-skyrocketing-among-the-old
      The ridership rate by age eyeball-interpolates for 18-24 is about .90%, 25-54 is about .75%-.80% and 55-64 is .65%, 65-74 is .67%, and 75-84 is .55%.
      So we can estimate-adjust the population mortality rate using the ridership rate and see that the 55+ death rate per rider is in indeed greater than the 35-54.
      So being old on a bike does suck. However, it's not statistically related to motor vehicle accident rates.

      I read the USAtoday link you provided and it gives us three anecdotes about 80+ drivers. It's in no way relevant to the bicycling discussion.

      I confess that I didn't read the pay-walled JAMA article. The abstract does not offer any usable numbers.

    6. Re: [smack my face] by Sique · · Score: 1
      Cycling culture has resorted to this because the normal traffic culture excludes cyclists. And if cyclists don't get any advantage from obeying traffic laws, what's the point in adhering to them?

      Countries with a better integration of cyclists into the daily traffic routines have more disciplined cyclists.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    7. Re: [smack my face] by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      But cyclists can not just make up their own rules. Like "it's ok to run a stop sign because otherwise we'd have to stop." The advantage of traffic laws is that traffic runs smoother, and more people get to live. If they don't like it, then petition to change the rules instead of ignoring them like the militant anarchists that they are.

  2. If you ride a bike... by michael_rendier · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Always ride like absolutely NO ONE can see you...like you are invisible. If you purposefully always avoid situations where you are in front of a driver that perhaps doesn't look both ways...

    --
    There are three kinds of people in the world. Those that can count, and those that can't.
    1. Re:If you ride a bike... by bsolar · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Actually the typical advice given to bikers is to ride thinking that everyone around you is actively trying to kill you. It works because most people grossly underestimate how others can be *incompetent* but have much less difficulties in thinking about how others could be *malicious*. This is helpful in getting enough caution out of them.

    2. Re: If you ride a bike... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here in anchorage alaska, pretty much every biking fatality is the result of a drunk driver, and usually also a hit a run. Not sure how that holds up nationally, but it might be worth seeing how duis correlate.

    3. Re:If you ride a bike... by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      Just the opposite. If they see you they will aim for you! Be safe and stay hidden. If they find you, you're dead!

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    4. Re:If you ride a bike... by Brama · · Score: 1

      Yup, act as if everyone is purposefully out there to kill you. Still no guarantees, but it will greatly improve your chances of not getting hit. As someone who bikes in NYC, I am amazed by the stunts many bikers pull off, such as passing cars/cabs that are standing still at high speed, drive through red lights at great speed without barely looking and scaring the shit out of peds, swerving narrowly through traffic leaving no room at all for corrections. Going in the wrong way, at night, with no light whatsoever. The ER must be full of them and their victims. Just fucking take it easy, it barely saves you more than a minute.

    5. Re:If you ride a bike... by Dragonslicer · · Score: 1

      Like you said, they're just acting as if everyone is purposely trying to kill them. After all, the best way to handle someone that's trying to kill you is to kill them first, right?

    6. Re:If you ride a bike... by David_Hart · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Actually the typical advice given to bikers is to ride thinking that everyone around you is actively trying to kill you. It works because most people grossly underestimate how others can be *incompetent* but have much less difficulties in thinking about how others could be *malicious*. This is helpful in getting enough caution out of them.

      And helmets are only rated to protect against low impact forces. Most people think that helmets off much more protection than they actually do. Safe Cycling skills are much more important.

      http://bicyclesafe.com/helmets...

    7. Re:If you ride a bike... by Brama · · Score: 1

      That doesn't really work out as they are generally on the losing end of the equation when it turns into an accident.

    8. Re: If you ride a bike... by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      It might have something to do with the difficulties of steering a bike with skis on it!

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    9. Re: If you ride a bike... by ColdWetDog · · Score: 4, Funny

      Here in anchorage alaska, pretty much every biking fatality is the result of a drunk driver, and usually also a hit a run. Not sure how that holds up nationally, but it might be worth seeing how duis correlate.

      In Anchorage, pretty much everything is a result of a drunk driver. Not much else is going on there.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    10. Re:If you ride a bike... by ZeroPly · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That is horrendously bad advice. If I were actually invisible, I would ride on the sidewalk. For riding on the road, you want to stay far enough towards the middle that you don't blend into the surroundings. And when you stop at intersections, you generally need to assert enough room that cars don't squeeze past you. Both those things would be impossible if you were invisible.

      --
      Support microSD: in a post 9/11 world, it is unwise to carry your data on media that you cannot comfortably swallow.
    11. Re:If you ride a bike... by amiga3D · · Score: 2, Funny

      I always thought the helmets were there to help the cops find your head when you get decapitated.

    12. Re:If you ride a bike... by michael_rendier · · Score: 1

      Actual invisibility comes with comic books, and also resurrection... Not giving bad drivers the opportunity to run you down is a no brainer... Also how do i follow these rules in bike lanes?

      --
      There are three kinds of people in the world. Those that can count, and those that can't.
    13. Re:If you ride a bike... by Runaway1956 · · Score: 0

      Yep. Motorcycle safety research supports that. One school of thought on motorcycles is that you want to wear high visibility clothing and helmet. Theory is, if people see you, they won't run you down. Problem is - people drive in the direction they are looking. I most CERTAINLY don't want people looking at me! I can't possibly count the times that I've met an oncoming auto, and the driver was very obviously looking AT ME, and the auto drifted toward the center line.

      So, yes, be as invisible as possible, be alert, maintain situational awareness, and ALWAYS HAVE A PLAN OF ESCAPE!

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    14. Re:If you ride a bike... by SeaFox · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Always ride like absolutely NO ONE can see you...like you are invisible.

      If you can. I ride on the sidewalk -- but supposedly that's illegal in my area (because they think I'll hit a pedestrian).
      My thinking is -- there's a hell of a lot more cars on the street than people who actually walk from place to place, so the chances of me hitting a pedestrian are much lower than a car hitting me. Plus, then it's my riding abilities that guarantee safety. Not hoping that strangers driving cars are looking out for me.

    15. Re:If you ride a bike... by meerling · · Score: 2

      I hate to say it, but in this city, the majority of the bicyclists are apparently trying to win Darwin Awards.
      On an average day, you'll see at least a dozen of them, and about 6 times a year you'll see one that's actually following the rules.
      They go through red lights. Go the wrong direction in the lanes. Shoot out into traffic from behind large objects in the middle of the block. Jump back and forth between the sidewalk and the road with no warning. etc.
      In short, they are suicidal incompetents that should be allowed near anything with wheels in the first place, much less actually be allowed on the roads.

      I don't know what the hell happened, but it didn't used to be that way. When I was a teenager, I wasn't even allowed to ride past my block until I had read and learned all the road rules. My mom gave me a state drivers manual for me to study. It's true that most of these idiots aren't teenagers, but WTF don't they what they are doing is suicidal? In a collision between a car and a bike, I guarantee the bike will lose by at least half a ton! Speaking of which, I saw the aftermath of a recent bike-car collision a couple of months ago. It wasn't a head on, but both wheels on the bike were bent like chalupas. As to the rider, I don't know, the paramedics had a blanket and were blocking any clear view. (I wasn't driving that day, so I could afford to look.)

      And of course, if someone wants to scream at me for being a car driver and not a bicyclist so it's obvious I wouldn't understand, I ride my bike most days of the week, and it's in a busy traffic area. It's not me that's mentally deficient.

    16. Re: If you ride a bike... by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      Here's a case where a drunk driver wiped out an entire peloton:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    17. Re:If you ride a bike... by NeoMorphy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Some drivers are malicious. One of my wife's students was rear ended after stopping for a stop sign. He went flying and broke his arm. The driver told him to get off the road and drove off. I stopped riding a bike in the 80s after multiple cars sideswiped me, once when I was on the sidewalk. It seemed like it was safer in the 70s and then in the early 80s drivers starting hitting cyclists like it was a sport.

      My wife and I are riding again, but only on the rail trails.

    18. Re:If you ride a bike... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That, or just stay on the bike paths.

    19. Re:If you ride a bike... by tepples · · Score: 1

      Not everybody can afford to procure rights of way to install bike paths between home and office.

    20. Re:If you ride a bike... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The big issue is visibilty. I ride a motorcycle which is bigger and noisier than a bike, but I'd never assume that a car driver has seen me unless we're looking each other in the eye. As a motorcyclist, I also have the ability to accelerate significantly if I need to get out of somebody's way.

      Mixing motored and non-motored vehicles is just asking for trouble even before accounting for all those cyclists that refuse to obey the traffic laws. And the motorists that don't pay attention to what they're doing.

    21. Re:If you ride a bike... by Jeremi · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I ride on the sidewalk -- but supposedly that's illegal in my area (because they think I'll hit a pedestrian).

      It's probably different where you are, but around here there are a lot of sidewalks going past buildings with driveways between them. That means that anyone riding on the sidewalk is riding through an unprotected "blind intersection" at every driveway, and is in serious risk of getting t-boned (albeit probably at low speed) by a car coming out of the driveway, and possibly knocked out into the street for further abuse.

      Given that, around here it's very unsafe to ride a bike on the sidewalks, although you can get away with it you're willing to bike slowly and slow further and look both ways carefully before crossing each driveway. Given that, it's usually faster and safer to just ride on the street, where drivers can see you and where your presence is more expected.

      --


      I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
    22. Re:If you ride a bike... by bugs2squash · · Score: 0

      If you're older than 12 you should be on the road. All you do is transfer your risks to sidewalk users. I don't want to rely on your riding abilities to "guarantee" my safety any more than you want to rely on other road users'.

      --
      Nullius in verba
    23. Re:If you ride a bike... by cats-paw · · Score: 1

      this is precisely correct.

      it's the mindset i've used all my biking life, over 20 years now.

      you really, really have to think they are out to get you.

      and it's true, only these days drivers are out to get everyone. I'm constantly amazed that there aren't fatal accidents all. the. time.

      without the actual enforcement of traffic laws, human beings, being animals, will absolutely do what they want.

      you have to smack them on the nose with a rolled up newspaper on a regular basis.

      --
      Absolute statements are never true
    24. Re: If you ride a bike... by blindseer · · Score: 1

      For some reason the "here in Anchorage" line lead me to think the primary cause of cyclist deaths would have been... BEARS!!

      --
      I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
    25. Re:If you ride a bike... by SeaFox · · Score: 1

      The difference is chances are there is no "you" to begin with. I'll be lucky to see a half-dozen people on a ride at all. I'll see hundreds of cars.
      Numbers-wise it really does make more sense to run the risk this way.

      Also consider -- if I hit you, due to the similar mass we are both gonna get injured. So I'm gonna me looking out for you as much as you're looking for me. A automobile driver isn't going to get hurt if he hits a bike, so they have less incentive to be careful. If a car hits me on the road, if it doesn't actually drive over me it will still likely knock me off my bike and onto the street, where one of the many other cars might accidentally roll over me. Adding to the danger for me.

    26. Re: If you ride a bike... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here in anchorage alaska, pretty much every biking fatality is the result of a drunk driver, and usually also a hit a run. Not sure how that holds up nationally, but it might be worth seeing how duis correlate.

      Perhaps Alaskans should put their crazy drunken pedaling power to better use.

    27. Re:If you ride a bike... by kheldan · · Score: 1

      Always ride like absolutely NO ONE can see you...like you are invisible

      I'll do you one better: Ride like people are actively trying to kill you, or at least think that way. I've been riding motorcycles for 35 years (have owned 7 motorcycles since age 15), and I ride a bicycle 6 days a week (road racer, so all of that is training), and I drive. I apply all those years of motorcycling to riding the bike, and I've never even come close to getting hit by a car. Now, here's a kicker for you: At least half the time when I come to a 4-way stop where there are cars to the left or right? They'll try to wave me through, regardless of them having the legal right-of-way. I'll come to a complete stop and step down off the pedals. Sometimes I'll even stand there and wave them through, and they'll get mad at me and insist I go anyway. Sometimes I even have to get completely off the bike and walk it over to the side of the road and lean up against the stop sign pole before they get the idea I'm not going anywhere. Sometimes they get all pissed off that I'm not going in front of them, which makes no sense at all. I think it's this sort of confusion that contributes to car versus cyclist accidents: motorists don't seem to know the rules of the road any better than some cyclists do. You can't say that I don't ride enough to get in situations where there might be a problem, either, because in a typical week I ride 200-300 miles over 6 days of training, and on weekdays in the Fall/Winter/early Spring, I'm riding after work and I'm in the dark (before anyone says it: with a 2-watt taillight and an 800 lumen headlight). Do some cyclists need to understand that the same laws apply to them? Yes. Do some motorists need to be reminded of the laws, too? Absolutely. It's not one or the other, it's both groups contributing to the problem.

      --
      Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
    28. Re:If you ride a bike... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then you are either bad at making jokes or poorly educated. Pick one.

    29. Re:If you ride a bike... by jabuzz · · Score: 1

      Yeah and motorcycle helmets are only rated for up to 30mph, so clearly wearing those is a total waste of time as well. The anti helmet brigade are guilty of the Perfect solution fallacy, they would claim that seat belts are a waste of time because people are still going to die in vehicle accidents.

      Do they work, well this person would almost certainly have lived had see been wearing a helmet. It was a low speed collision with a pedestrian, just the type a cycle helmet is rated to protect against.

      http://www.thecourier.co.uk/ne...

      Regardless of whether you think they work, in the U.K. at least they are believed to work by the law. That is should you be involved in an accident and be due a compensation as a result of a brain injury the amount of your award is likely to be reduced due to "contributory negligence" typically around 20% if you where not wearing a helmet at the time of the accident. Consequently not wearing a helmet and cycling in the U.K. is an act of wanton stupidity.

      http://www.cyclistsdefencefund...

      Tragically I am personally connected with people in both web links.

    30. Re:If you ride a bike... by Drethon · · Score: 1

      Funny, that's the way I drive. So far after a bit over 15 years of driving I've had 3 accidents, one my fault where I failed to notice a stop sign in an unfamiliar city (minor damage but woke me up to doing better active scanning) and two others where I got rear ended after I was fully stopped and hadn't stopped all that fast.

      I can't count the number of times I've had to avoid accidents during that time.

    31. Re:If you ride a bike... by jittles · · Score: 1

      Actually the typical advice given to bikers is to ride thinking that everyone around you is actively trying to kill you. It works because most people grossly underestimate how others can be *incompetent* but have much less difficulties in thinking about how others could be *malicious*. This is helpful in getting enough caution out of them.

      When I ride my motorcycle I assume that every other vehicle on the road is trying to kill me. In reality, it's usually only one or two assholes per trip that do something that could result in my death or dismemberment. You can almost always pick them out a good 5-10 seconds before they try and kill you. Typically they are weaving a little bit or you notice that they haven't glanced in any of their mirrors in several seconds and they haven't realized that the traffic in front of them is slowing down and they're running out of real estate. It's probably a bit different for bicyclists, though./P.

    32. Re:If you ride a bike... by houghi · · Score: 1

      What they also MUST do is respect the rules.Traffic lights? What are those? Crossings? The pedestrians will get out of the way.

      Yes, 99.99 out of 100 there is not an issue. It is the 0.01 that kills you or you hit some pedestrian.

      As a driver in a car, I will do what I can to avoid hitting you based on what I expect to be happening. I expect you to be on place X in amount Y of time and I will tryt not to be there.

      If you start changing those predictions by skipping trough red lights, my judgement of where you will be will be wrong and I hit you or somebody else trying to avoid hitting you.

      And if you don't want to play by the rules don't be upset if the next wheels you ride have a chair attached to them.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    33. Re:If you ride a bike... by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      You either lack a sense of humor or you're just generally a bitch. Pick one.

    34. Re:If you ride a bike... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It works because it is reflects reality.

    35. Re:If you ride a bike... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One of my biggest gripes about cycling and the "rules of the road" is that bicycles are treated just like cars: in the US, they have to be on the right side of the road and follow the same flow of traffic. ...Except bicycles are NOT cars. For one, they don't have rearview mirrors, so it's common that a cyclist may swerve to miss a pothole or debris that is commonly on the sides of the road and not see the car coming from behind.

      To me, bicycles should move in the *opposite* direction of car traffic (like we often did as kids) and overzealous cops shouldn't try to ticket cyclists for this. The reason is that when moving in the opposite direction, ALL moving vehicles can see each other at all times. Cyclists can see every car coming from a long ways away. (Plus if you *do* get hit, you're more likely to flip over the hood of the car when moving in opposing directions rather than getting crushed from being run over when moving in the same direction.) The "obey the same rules of the road" is typical lazy government worker thinking. Make *standardized* rules, but make them make sense for the given type of vehicle.

    36. Re:If you ride a bike... by qui_tollis · · Score: 1

      Terrible advice - far more people get killed or injured by large vehicles turning into them from the side than from behind. Position yourself a good metre from the side of the road, forcing vehicles to actually overtake - if you ride in the kerb drivers will frequently try to squeeze past without moving out of their lane.

    37. Re:If you ride a bike... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually the typical advice given to bikers is to ride thinking that everyone around you is actively trying to kill you.

      As in shooting them first? Or at least bringing a long gun to prove it won't be trivial?

    38. Re: If you ride a bike... by Nidi62 · · Score: 1

      Here in anchorage alaska, pretty much every biking fatality is the result of a drunk driver, and usually also a hit a run. Not sure how that holds up nationally, but it might be worth seeing how duis correlate.

      In Anchorage, pretty much everything is a result of a drunk driver. Not much else is going on there.

      Or moose. And sometimes drunk moose.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    39. Re:If you ride a bike... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here in San Antonio, tx, you don't have to think people are trying to kill you, some of them actually are. Ask any regular rider here. We've all got stories of being run off the road. More than one of my friends have been to the hospital from it too.
      It's a hunting culture here. Including cyclists apparently.

    40. Re:If you ride a bike... by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Actually the typical advice given to bikers is to ride thinking that everyone around you is actively trying to kill you. It works because most people grossly underestimate how others can be *incompetent* but have much less difficulties in thinking about how others could be *malicious*. This is helpful in getting enough caution out of them.

      Which is about as stupid as advice can get. Thinking that every car on the road is your enemy only furthers the self righteous attitide some bikers have.

      I was follwing behind bikes at a bicycle race, giving a buffer between thm and any cars coming up, and providing radio support. Some rider t the back mothins me around, then when I tried to tell him that I was there for his protection, he went apeshit crazy on me, exhausting every expletive, and wanting to fight me.

      A radio call ahead to the next check station, and he was removed from the race.

      If every vehicle is your enemy, you have no place on the road. And it fosters an us against them attitude that causes bikers to ride several abreast, and think it is their right to obey only the rules they find convenient. Stopping is inconvenient, and riding in the provided bike lane is only a suggestion.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    41. Re:If you ride a bike... by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Yup, act as if everyone is purposefully out there to kill you.

      So then the converse is also true All bikers are assholes who don't obey traffic laws, ride several abreast, and like to tattoo your car with their rings as you stop at a stop sign or light, and barell throug the sign or light.

      My point is not that bikers are my enemy. My point is that if a biker takes that attitude, don't be surprised if everyone else thinks they are an asshole.

      All it does is perpetuate the auto/biker divide.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    42. Re:If you ride a bike... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Red light skipping non-withstanding...
      As a driver of a car, like 99.9% other drivers, you are probably passing cyclists where you would not dare pass a car, thus endangering the cyclist. Before criticizing someone on a bicycle, realize that an accident for him is likely a severe injury or death, so he has plenty of incentives to do what's safe for him. For you, you will barely notice his impact. Oftentimes, what seems to you an "unsafe" behavior from a cyclist, is the safest thing he can do at the moment.

    43. Re:If you ride a bike... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That doesn't really work out as they are generally on the losing end of the equation when it turns into an accident.

      It may depend on your bike. Usually, the best that can happen is a draw. An actual win for the bike is quite rare.

    44. Re: If you ride a bike... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here in anchorage alaska, pretty much every biking fatality is the result of a drunk driver, and usually also a hit a run. Not sure how that holds up nationally, but it might be worth seeing how duis correlate.

      In Anchorage, pretty much everything is a result of a drunk driver. Not much else is going on there.

      Actually, there is a state-wide rule in Alaska, that you have to be drunk to drive any motor vehicle. Ask a [probably drunk] cop, if you disbelieve me. Makes for interesting discussions with MADD.

    45. Re:If you ride a bike... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually the typical advice given to bikers is to ride thinking that everyone around you is actively trying to kill you. ...

      Lock and load...

    46. Re:If you ride a bike... by wyHunter · · Score: 2

      As are some cyclists. Many times I've seen them flying into roundabouts near my home without stopping as they are supposed to because that's the traffic regulation. Fortunately, I don't expect cyclists to obey traffic laws even though they are *supposed to do so* so I haven't hit them. Unfortunately, biking deaths will get worse in part because of this and in part because many auto drivers are unreasonable, too.

    47. Re:If you ride a bike... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is also horrendously bad advice. Riding a bicycle on the sidewalk in Georgia is also illegal. The law in my state of Georgia.

      40-6-294.

      (a) Every person operating a bicycle upon a roadway shall ride as near to the right side of the roadway as practicable, except when turning left or avoiding hazards to safe cycling

      I am a cyclist over the age of 50. I am ranked #14th in all of Georgia... https://nationalbikechallenge.org/rider/12515
       
        I started in my early 40's because my doctor said he wanted to start me on blood pressure medicine. I told him "No" and started riding a bicycle.
       
      In 2013 I was also involved in a bicycle accident and separated my shoulder as I hit the passenger side rear quarter panel of a Ford Expedition that sped up past me to slam on the brakes to make a right hand turn in front of me. http://xkcd.nathanwoodruff.com/Capture1.PNG
       
      I ride with a group of people that have started riding a bicycle to get into better health and have chosen a bicycle instead of jogging or walking because of bad knees or feet that can't take the constant pounding. Bicycle riding is a much smoother action.
       
      What every bicycle rider should know is the bicycle law in your own state... Here is mine... http://www.bicyclegeorgia.com/galaw.html

    48. Re:If you ride a bike... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oddly enough, before I got rid of it I nearly-always rode my bicycle on the sidewalks around here. Mostly because unless there is a dedicated cycling lane in the road, I do not trust anyone driving a car.

      My bicycle was also bedecked with a safety flag from the now-defunct Purple Sky Flags, and chrome baskets on both the front and back, making it fairly more visible than the average bike.

      I've moved on to walking for exercise, though. Around here, walking is slightly safer (especially if I wear neon clothing -- particularly while it's bright and sunny), even if it is a lot slower than riding a bicycle.

    49. Re:If you ride a bike... by hucker75 · · Score: 1

      Helmets do nothing but make you look like a sissy. As a driver I take much more care to normally dressed (no Lycra, hi-vis, or helmet) cyclists. Wearing any of those three things makes you subhuman.

    50. Re:If you ride a bike... by JimFive · · Score: 1

      The only times I've been hit while riding, I was on the sidewalk. Drivers don't seem to check the sidewalk when leaving their driveways. But they look at the road.
      --
      JimFive

      --
      Please stop using the word theory when you mean hypothesis.
    51. Re:If you ride a bike... by Anonymous+Cow+Ward · · Score: 1

      There are two problems I can see with this. First, if a cyclist is moving in the opposite direction of car traffic, any collision will involve a higher change in momentum, and thus potentially a more severe accident. Flipping onto the hood might mitigate this somewhat, I'm not sure. Second, making cyclists go against car traffic would effectively block them from going down narrow one-way streets, which are going to be more common in many areas where you'd want to ride a bike as a daily commute.

      --
      Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.
    52. Re:If you ride a bike... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I always feel the strap of the helmet is meant to cause a spontaneously decapitation, even without an accident.

    53. Re:If you ride a bike... by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      Actually the typical advice given to bikers is to ride thinking that everyone around you is actively trying to kill you. It works because most people grossly underestimate how others can be *incompetent* but have much less difficulties in thinking about how others could be *malicious*. This is helpful in getting enough caution out of them.

      And helmets are only rated to protect against low impact forces. Most people think that helmets off much more protection than they actually do. Safe Cycling skills are much more important.

      http://bicyclesafe.com/helmets...

      The force a bike helmet needs to withstand is approximately equal to what your head would experience if it just fell 5 feet. Any increased impact from getting thrown by a serious collision, you're on your own.

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
    54. Re:If you ride a bike... by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      Some drivers are malicious. One of my wife's students was rear ended after stopping for a stop sign. He went flying and broke his arm. The driver told him to get off the road and drove off. I stopped riding a bike in the 80s after multiple cars sideswiped me, once when I was on the sidewalk. It seemed like it was safer in the 70s and then in the early 80s drivers starting hitting cyclists like it was a sport.

      My wife and I are riding again, but only on the rail trails.

      Same here; no injuries, but bike got bent. Mid afternoon, a dozen witnesses stepped forward; the license plate all reported for the car "didn't exist" according to the police dept. Oh well.

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
    55. Re:If you ride a bike... by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      Like you said, they're just acting as if everyone is purposely trying to kill them. After all, the best way to handle someone that's trying to kill you is to kill them first, right?

      This leads to my theory that there would be fewer bike accidents if Gyrojet pistols were still manufactured. A regular handgun has way too much recoil for a bike rider.

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
    56. Re:If you ride a bike... by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      I hate to say it, but in this city, the majority of the bicyclists are apparently trying to win Darwin Awards. On an average day, you'll see at least a dozen of them, and about 6 times a year you'll see one that's actually following the rules. They go through red lights. Go the wrong direction in the lanes. Shoot out into traffic from behind large objects in the middle of the block. Jump back and forth between the sidewalk and the road with no warning. etc. In short, they are suicidal incompetents that should be allowed near anything with wheels in the first place, much less actually be allowed on the roads. I don't know what the hell happened, but it didn't used to be that way. When I was a teenager, I wasn't even allowed to ride past my block until I had read and learned all the road rules. My mom gave me a state drivers manual for me to study. It's true that most of these idiots aren't teenagers, but WTF don't they what they are doing is suicidal? In a collision between a car and a bike, I guarantee the bike will lose by at least half a ton! Speaking of which, I saw the aftermath of a recent bike-car collision a couple of months ago. It wasn't a head on, but both wheels on the bike were bent like chalupas. As to the rider, I don't know, the paramedics had a blanket and were blocking any clear view. (I wasn't driving that day, so I could afford to look.) And of course, if someone wants to scream at me for being a car driver and not a bicyclist so it's obvious I wouldn't understand, I ride my bike most days of the week, and it's in a busy traffic area. It's not me that's mentally deficient.

      A lot of it is the nature of the bike. Coming to a dead stop at a light or stop sign? Then you're obstructing traffic for the time it takes you to get moving again with your piddly one human-power. Whereas, you have enough visibility to detect a car that's approaching. So you treat all stops as yield signs. (Note that sailboats have the right of way on the sea, for similar reasons) Go the wrong direction in lanes? (I don't do that myself) but they always tell you to walk facing the traffic if there's no sidewalk, so you can dodge, presumably same thinking. Dodging in and out of traffic? (again, not me) but they tell you to stay as rightward as possible. Jump between sidewalk and street? I do that, but I look first. Given the evident wish for drivers to have me NOT on the street, I'm happy to comply and ride on the sidewalk whenever possible (i.e., when it's not full of pedestrians).

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
    57. Re:If you ride a bike... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For the record, this happened to my wife once too, but she was in a 3000-lb Honda Civic, and the damage was just to the rear bumper (no injuries). But idiot drivers, including felony hit and run, abound.

    58. Re:If you ride a bike... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hope the student got the driver's license plate, reported the driver to the police, and (insistently) pressed charges for hit and run. Until bikers start acting like everyone else and using the legal system to insure they are treated fairly, abuses like this will continue.

    59. Re: If you ride a bike... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here in anchorage alaska, pretty much every biking fatality is the result of a drunk driver, and usually also a hit a run. Not sure how that holds up nationally, but it might be worth seeing how duis correlate.

      1 of at least 2 things about that may be true.
      1. You are that driver and so know you are drunk and driving away.
      2. You just like regurgitating propaganda.
      When drunk driving was outlawed they went to doctors and asked what BAC people would have to have to be impaired. The doctor's said .15.
      After that MADD showed up and wanted a number that was 2/3 of the impairment level. And so we went to .1. But as the prohibitionists pushed on (the MADD leader quit stating it was now a prohibitionist group) we have .08 and are looking at lower while .15 is still what it takes to impair. So we are going after innocent people.
      They did it with emotional please and made up numbers and not logical ones. So we got laws without logic.
      By made up numbers I mean for statistics purposes it is considered a drunk driving crash unless cops test everyone involved including witnesses. If they do not test EVERYONE (say because they have no reason to suspect anyone is drunk) is is a drunk driving crash. If they do test and find a witness or passenger was drunk.. Yep also a drunk driving crash.
      If you used "tested for aardvark fur" instead of BAC tested, you would find that most crashes are caused by aardvark ownership.
      What this means is "OMG drunk drives kill so many people each year!" is completely made up and then people emotionally invest in this lie, then they form angry mobs. The "Drunk Driver" is a boogie man.

      Most crashes are actually caused by inattentive drivers. Want to make and enforce a law that targets most drivers? Good luck with that. There is a reason that yapping on a hands free cell phone while driving is more dangerous than driving drunk but will not be penalized the same way.

      Bring on the self driving cars!

    60. Re:If you ride a bike... by strikethree · · Score: 1

      Actually the typical advice given to bikers is to ride thinking that everyone around you is actively trying to kill you.

      Actually, some of them are. I have ridden well over a hundred thousand miles on bikes and twice, I had someone look me straight in the eyes and deliberately maneuver in such a way as to try and cause a collision. One, I was able to avoid through some creative acrobatics, the other... Ouch. I minimized the damage to myself but my bike was completely destroyed. I could not work for several days after.

      Of course, in both situations, the driver just drove off as if nothing has happened. So yeah, it is best to assume at least one of the drivers out there is actively trying to kill you... because one is.

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
    61. Re:If you ride a bike... by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      I ride on the sidewalk -- but supposedly that's illegal in my area (because they think I'll hit a pedestrian).

      You're a dumbass. Riding on the sidewalk isn't a bad idea because you might hit a pedestrian, it's a bad idea because drivers don't expect you to be on the sidewalk and will t-bone you as they pull out of (or into) a driveway. That actually makes riding on a sidewalk MORE DANGEROUS than riding on the street with traffic, not less!

      As a driver, the only times I've come close to hitting cyclists was for exactly that reason. In both cases, I was turning right from one street to another. I checked the on-coming travel lanes for cars and bikes and I checked the crosswalk and sidewalk for pedestrians, but I didn't look WAAAY down the sidewalk for dumbass cyclists careening at me. Sure, the collision would have been their own damn fault for riding illegally, but it still would have inconvenienced me and possibly dented my car.

      As a cyclist, I ride in the street -- it's safer that way.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

  3. Drivers, cyclists and pedestrians: idiots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Drivers, cyclists and pedestrians all draw from the same general population and none of them has the moral high ground. But watch this thread devolve into endless, ignorant sniping among the groups. I have a car, ride a bike and walk to work and I see members of each group act incredibly stupidly and selfishly. It's just a fact of life that people are generally terrible and their actions frequently endanger and even kill one another, bu they'd rather withdraw into their little cultural groups to claim the high ground. And nothing ever changes.

    1. Re:Drivers, cyclists and pedestrians: idiots by Brama · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Exactly. Just hate everyone equally.

    2. Re: Drivers, cyclists and pedestrians: idiots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Since kinetic energy is 0.5mv^2 it's pretty clear the person in a 4,000 pound behemoth going 40mph has more destructive energy and bears the higher burden of responsibility when they (inevitably, according to you) screw up. Compared to 200 lbs at 3mph or 15mph.

    3. Re: Drivers, cyclists and pedestrians: idiots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not to mention the vastly larger sum of taxpayer money being spent on auto infrastructure compared to the other two modes.

    4. Re:Drivers, cyclists and pedestrians: idiots by slazzy · · Score: 1

      Very true. I also love to drive, ride my bike and walk and I think those who do all three can see things clearly.

      --
      Website Just Down For Me? Find out
    5. Re:Drivers, cyclists and pedestrians: idiots by nine-times · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think it's less about who's an idiot, and more about who has what share of the responsibility. It seems sensible to me to think that the level of responsibility you should take for your actions scales with the amount to damage your actions can do. A pedestrian can afford to be an idiot-- if he runs into someone, he probably won't kill them. A truck driver, on the other hand, can easily kill a handful of people with one mistake.

      So there are idiots among all of those groups? Fine. I don't disagree. But take away the licenses of the idiots among the drivers. If we can't stop them from being idiots, the least we can do is minimize the damage they do by making them walk.

    6. Re:Drivers, cyclists and pedestrians: idiots by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      Works for me!

    7. Re:Drivers, cyclists and pedestrians: idiots by Runaway1956 · · Score: 0

      It makes just as much sense to assume responsibility in proportion to your vulnerability. That is why I ride a motorcycle, but not a bicycle. I can be equally alert and defensive on a bicycle, but on the un-motorized bike, I have no performance. Even on a relatively small motorcycle, I have the power and speed to evade just about any vehicle coming at me.

      Someone above mentioned the "right" vs "dead right" adage already.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    8. Re: Drivers, cyclists and pedestrians: idiots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which is a moot point, because the other two require less of that infrastructure, and also do less wear and tear on that infrastructure, requiring it to be maintained less. The average life in the US of a mile of multiuse path is 35 years, where the average life of a mile of road is 10 years.

    9. Re:Drivers, cyclists and pedestrians: idiots by AchilleTalon · · Score: 1

      Me too. However I got a volleyball I named Wilson in case I am in need to talk to someone that isn't idiot and selfish.

      --
      Achille Talon
      Hop!
    10. Re:Drivers, cyclists and pedestrians: idiots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hello, Tom cyclist for sport and cardio. Apparently you don't understand basic physics. You are not gonna create equality in the manner of sharing road space when the average American car weighs 4,000 lbs and can go over 80+ mph easily, while the average bike weighs 20+ lb. and with a rider probably weighs less than 200 lb(the average American male weighs a shocking 195 lb, I imagine cyclists weigh much less on average) and will struggle to go 30+ downhill and only the fittest can go 20+ mph on flat land for any duration. The reasons why drivers don't care about this reality is obvious. The reason why most cyclists don't want to realize is also equally obvious: people generally cycle in most of the developed West for hobby, sport, exercise or entertainment they don't really cycle to get anywhere or because they have to, if they have to get anywhere they will use their precious cars.

      Pedestrians and cyclists cannot compete for space on the roads on equal grounds. Car are innately far more dangerous than walking or bicycling because of their mass and high speed. But why am I wasting the time writing this for autistic techies?

    11. Re:Drivers, cyclists and pedestrians: idiots by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      Don't let him float away.

    12. Re:Drivers, cyclists and pedestrians: idiots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So just because I'm in a car Im responsible for an idiot on a bike running a bike and hitting me maybe killing himself? No the cyclist is the idot for having so little care for their own welfare they dont follow the rules of the road.

    13. Re:Drivers, cyclists and pedestrians: idiots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      oops running a red light not bike

    14. Re:Drivers, cyclists and pedestrians: idiots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      True. However, hit by a stupid pedestrian will most likely only result in some bruises, maybe broken glasses. A cyclist can be 4 times as fast, but only with approx. 20 kg extra, which can become dangerous in head to head collisions. In average, it can result in broken bones. The third option, cars, is much more dangerous. One person commandeering 1-2 t of material which is accelerated up to 60 km in cities. So, yes, there are idiots in all group, however, in cars idiots cause the biggest damage.

    15. Re:Drivers, cyclists and pedestrians: idiots by Calydor · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Responsibility in proportion to your vulnerability? That's a dangerous precedent to set in a legal system, it will inevitably end up with victim blaming. It is not far from that to saying "Then don't dress provocatively if you don't want to get raped."

      Do we apply more responsibility to people that have a gun pointed at them than the guy holding the gun? If not, why should the pedestrian about to get run over have more responsibility than the driver of the about-to-be-a-deadly-weapon car?

      --
      -=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
    16. Re:Drivers, cyclists and pedestrians: idiots by Calydor · · Score: 1

      You were doing SO WELL until that last snide comment.

      --
      -=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
    17. Re: Drivers, cyclists and pedestrians: idiots by emj · · Score: 1

      The average life in the US of a mile of multiuse path is 35 years, where the average life of a mile of road is 10 years.

      Bad maintanence/infrastructure is the main cause for bicycle road accidents, like an unexpected hole in the ground. It's also one of the cheapest things to fix, best ROI of any infrastructure project.

    18. Re:Drivers, cyclists and pedestrians: idiots by emj · · Score: 1

      So just because I'm in a car Im responsible for an idiot on a bike running a bike and hitting me maybe killing himself? No the cyclist is the idot for having so little care for their own welfare they dont follow the rules of the road.

      In the last decade in Stockholm, there has been no accidents recorded were the cyclist ran a red light and was hit by a car.

    19. Re:Drivers, cyclists and pedestrians: idiots by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      A pedestrian can afford to be an idiot-- if he runs into someone, he probably won't kill them. A truck driver, on the other hand, can easily kill a handful of people with one mistake.

      Ah yes, the "someone else's problem" viewpoint. How about, a pedestrian can't afford to be an idiot, because if he steps in front of a truck he's meat. And a truck driver also can't afford to be an idiot, because see above.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    20. Re:Drivers, cyclists and pedestrians: idiots by alexhs · · Score: 1

      In these trying times, one shall grant his contempt sparingly, for the needy are plentyfull -- François-René de Chateaubriand

      --
      I have discovered a truly marvelous proof of killer sig, which this margin is too narrow to contain.
    21. Re: Drivers, cyclists and pedestrians: idiots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, because bicyclists don't own cars and drive. LOL. You dumbfuck

    22. Re:Drivers, cyclists and pedestrians: idiots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You have it exactly backwards. You should assume responsibility proportional to your ability to kill or seriously injure another person with your chosen mode of transportation.

    23. Re:Drivers, cyclists and pedestrians: idiots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I just had to get that in, because I know most IT workers are socially conservative enough that they don't care realize simple truths, to instead feel good about mythical scenarios where bad pedestrians and bad cyclists, are equally bad as bad drivers. But because of the speed and mass of the cyclists and pedestrians is so small, they are much less dangerous than even the best drivers. Here is an article from a conservative perspective that points out the massive automobile culture predicated on suburbs was the result of massive government spending and subsidies to favor the car:
      The American Conservative: The Conservative Case Against the Suburbs

    24. Re:Drivers, cyclists and pedestrians: idiots by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Drivers, cyclists and pedestrians all draw from the same general population and none of them has the moral high ground. But watch this thread devolve into endless, ignorant sniping among the groups.

      When the war comes between bikers and drivers.......I know which side I'm going to be on.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    25. Re:Drivers, cyclists and pedestrians: idiots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What license are you going to take away when a biker slams into a pedestrian? Lets let your theory apply to everyone.

    26. Re:Drivers, cyclists and pedestrians: idiots by sociocapitalist · · Score: 1

      Exactly. Just hate everyone equally.

      Nah - the worst are taxi drivers, second are delivery drivers and bus drivers aren't far behind.

      Far and beyond are taxi drivers looking for a fare as they are about as predictable as a woman with PMS.

      --
      blindly antisocialist = antisocial
    27. Re:Drivers, cyclists and pedestrians: idiots by houghi · · Score: 1

      What about the idiots on bikes that endager pedestrians? I see it all the time where I live. They see no need to stop before red lights or pedestrian crossings or crossings in general.

      What theysometi,es do not expect is that I WON'T step aside when they come towards me and I have right of way as a pedestrian. And then sudenly they sart yelling at me?

      I am crossing the road. The pedestrian light is green. I will step in front of you just enough so you hit me with your steeringwheel which causes the wheel to turn drastically in a 90 degrees position. That will cause an abrupt stop for that vehicle.

      I also will step in front of them if I am in a pedestrian zone and they come towards me. Either from the front or from the back, so thye have to stop.

      I hate them with a passion. That said, if they abide all the rules, I have no issue with them whatsoever. If everybody followed the traffic rules, there would be almost no issue anyway.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    28. Re:Drivers, cyclists and pedestrians: idiots by nine-times · · Score: 1

      What about the idiots on bikes that endager pedestrians?

      Yes, those people too have more responsibility than pedestrians. they're going faster and can do more damage than a pedestrian walking into you. They're heavier too, but not by much. They do go faster, and those guys who get up to 35 miles per hour or something, those guys should really be careful.

      However, most commuter cyclists are going, what, 10 miles per hour? It's like a person sprinting. If the amount of damage you can do in a car is rated 100 and and pedestrians are rated a 1, then most cyclists should be rated a 2 or 3. The level of stupidity involved in being reckless on a bike is nothing compared to the stupidity of being reckless in a car. Until we can recognize this, I don't see any sensible conversation coming out of this. People get all fired up about every infraction they see on a bicycle because they assume cyclists are smug, while they ignore the massive stupidity of motorists because motorists are just "normal people".

      As an aside, as someone who walks frequently and rides occasionally, I can say that I also get frustrated by the sense of entitlement that cyclists sometimes have. But it's a bit silly to think that pedestrians aren't also being stupid and entitled. I've seen pedestrians walk into crosswalks when they don't have the light, and just expect cyclists to stop anyway. I once had a couple push their baby stroller out into the bike lane I was riding in, about 4 feet ahead of me passing, when they didn't have the light. They just seemed to think that of course a bicycle should stop for their baby, neglecting the fact that I almost fell off my bicycle trying to stop in time, and ignoring the danger they were putting their baby in for no reason. I wanted to smack them-- not for my sake, but for almost forcing me to injure a child.

      All of these people suck. But if they're going to be reckless, let them walk. Take away the driver's license. At least it'll greatly reduce the chances they'll kill anyone.

    29. Re:Drivers, cyclists and pedestrians: idiots by nine-times · · Score: 1

      How about, a pedestrian can't afford to be an idiot, because if he steps in front of a truck he's meat.

      Yes, great. So how about we just children grenade launchers. Then we can't afford to be child abusers, because if you abuse your 5 year old, he'll shoot you with a grenade.

      Or maybe that's not such a good idea. Maybe you shouldn't give dangerous contraptions to people who can't handle them responsibly, because just like a 5 year old with a grenade launcher, there's no telling who a reckless truck driver is going to kill. They might kill themselves, or an idiot pedestrian, or a responsible pedestrian, or a family in a minivan.

    30. Re:Drivers, cyclists and pedestrians: idiots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I despise humans. Hating them would be giving them too much energy and attention already. Humans are stupid, stink and leave stains everywhere. Agent Smith was right. I actually sympathized with this one scene where he explained that. The movie was made of course so that we are on the other side but he was right.

    31. Re:Drivers, cyclists and pedestrians: idiots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you misread:

      someone moving around in a car has a much higher kinetic energy then someone on a bike,
      someone on foot has less kinetic energy still

      we're talking order of magnitude difference, the potential consequences for a collision thus naturally differ

      he's saying the amount of responsibility required should be in proportion to the likely consequences of a mistake,
      i.e. the amount of kinetic enery, which seems quite sensible to me

    32. Re:Drivers, cyclists and pedestrians: idiots by nine-times · · Score: 1

      I would advise someone to be careful in proportion to their vulnerability. I would recommend that people be held responsible in proportion to their ability to do damage.

    33. Re:Drivers, cyclists and pedestrians: idiots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A fine sentiment, unfortunately the law doesn't work that way. If I kill you by plunging a knife into your heart, I'll serve a life sentence. If I kill you by mowing you down in a car, I'll get a few years max.

    34. Re:Drivers, cyclists and pedestrians: idiots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep, fuck cagers, zombies and cyclists!

    35. Re:Drivers, cyclists and pedestrians: idiots by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      Drivers, cyclists and pedestrians all draw from the same general population and none of them has the moral high ground. But watch this thread devolve into endless, ignorant sniping among the groups. I have a car, ride a bike and walk to work and I see members of each group act incredibly stupidly and selfishly. It's just a fact of life that people are generally terrible and their actions frequently endanger and even kill one another, bu they'd rather withdraw into their little cultural groups to claim the high ground. And nothing ever changes.

      http://www.aish.com/j/j/166678...

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
    36. Re:Drivers, cyclists and pedestrians: idiots by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      I think it's less about who's an idiot, and more about who has what share of the responsibility. It seems sensible to me to think that the level of responsibility you should take for your actions scales with the amount to damage your actions can do. A pedestrian can afford to be an idiot-- if he runs into someone, he probably won't kill them. A truck driver, on the other hand, can easily kill a handful of people with one mistake.

      So there are idiots among all of those groups? Fine. I don't disagree. But take away the licenses of the idiots among the drivers. If we can't stop them from being idiots, the least we can do is minimize the damage they do by making them walk.

      We forget, in the years pre the mass adoption of automobiles, the streets belonged to people. You were free to walk in the street. Sidewalks were there as much to keep your feet out of the pre-sewer crap in the street (including horse crap) as anything. Kids would naturally play in the street, where else would they play? And collisions between horse-drawn vehicle and human were rare. Note that the term 'jaywalk' was originally considered a shocking slur used by those who could afford a car against those who could not. http://www.todayifoundout.com/...

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
    37. Re:Drivers, cyclists and pedestrians: idiots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, consider that if everyone drove Smart-sized cars, they'd be less likely to ignore dangerous situations ("let them hit me, I got a truck"). With few exceptions, people drive more selfishly the larger their car, because they feel insulated from danger and anyone hitting them would have had it coming anyway. But when you feel just as vulnerable as others you will consider not only the danger posed to others, but the danger posed to you by maneuvers you make.

  4. Oh great by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Let's have all the 'bikers don't follow traffic rules and don't pay road tax and are arseholes' arguments in this thread, thanks!

    We can have the other threads for more constructive discussion then.

    1. Re:Oh great by BronsCon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'll start and end it with this: The ones who follow the rules of the road don't get noticed. The ones who don't, the ones who blow the stop sign *AND* turn left in front of my half-completed right turn, the ones who shouldn't be on the road in the first place, those are the ones people see. So yes, they make you all look like assholes, evne though the majority of you are just trying to safely get form point A to point B. If you're in the former group and are tired of being called an asshole just for riding a bike, recognize that this is the fault of the latter group and do something about it. when you see it happen, catch up to the asshole, ride alongside them for a bit, and explain how the thing they just did is unsafe for them in the moment and, by enraging drivers against cyclists, makes ccling less safe even for those who do follow the rules.

      I actively look for bikes, motorized, pedaled, or otherwise, so I see you guys, and I see most of you with pedals doing exactly what you should be doing, staying to the side of the lane (or in the bike lane if there is one and it is free of debris), stopping at signs and lights, and generally being safe. But I only see you guys because I am actively looking; most drivers only see the assholes, so do something about the assholes and you'll make all cyclists look better. Most motorbikes I see are doing all kinds of stupid shit like splitting lanes *at speed* which is against the law everywhere and very dangerous in any kind of traffic; I'm not sure there's any redeeming them, but I digress.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    2. Re:Oh great by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "I actively look for bikes, motorized, pedaled, or otherwise, so I see you guys, and I see most of you with pedals doing exactly what you should be doing, staying to the side of the lane (or in the bike lane if there is one and it is free of debris)"

      No as a motorcyclist your taught to ride in the center of you lane just as if you were any other 'car' on the road (this applies to push irons ) to- now if you slow like any OTHER vehicle you are supposed to pull over to let traffic past when safe to do so.

    3. Re:Oh great by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, I'd possibly do something but I have yet to see a single rule-breaking cyclist. Might have something to do with how I don't live (or cycle) in a big city. Or in the US, for that matter.

    4. Re:Oh great by houghi · · Score: 1

      Splitting lanes? What is that? Is that driving in between cars when there is a traffic jam? If so, it is legal where I live and most people will make a way for them (and they nicely thank you with a hand or foot gesture.)

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    5. Re:Oh great by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fuck no.
      Sorry, but the biggest assholes I see on bicycles are invariably the "martian crowd", the C-level executives with their fat asses, carbon fiber 6-grand bikes and senses of entitlement, chatting merrily behind their Porsche sunglasses with their equally oblivious C-level accountant buddy, blocking traffic, and being fat-ass-slow slobs.
      And as a peon-level worker on my own reasonably-priced bicycle, these guys are massive douches, to a person. Last time I tried to "educate" one of these guys, he fairly nearly destroyed my own bike. They are wankers. Aggressive. Rude. Condescending. Righteous. Arrogant. Unyielding.
      For some reason, they seem to think boardroom behavior is equally appropriate on the roads.
      And I'm certainly not going to try to stop them from dangerous cycling, cause if we're all lucky, they'll get swiped and taken off the road all by themselves.

      Only minor injuries, of course ;)

    6. Re: Oh great by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      That's precisely what it is. It's legal here, too, when traffic is stopped . Note that I said "at speed", that's legal nowhere.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    7. Re:Oh great by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      Sadly, they can afford to make it the other person's fault in court, even if it was their own.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    8. Re:Oh great by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      as a motorcyclist

      Indeed, I see. Yes, I did mention motorcycles so I see how you think my entire post would apply to you. However, I did limit the specific part you're attempting to counter to pedal bikes. You even quoted me doing so. And yes, pedal bikes should always stay to the side of the road because they are always slow traffic.

      In reality, lane sharing is the safest way to ride a motorbike. Two bikes next to each other in the lane means you are more visible to other motorists, particularly those who are looking in their mirrors for a lane change. When you're in the center of your lane (rather than to the right), you extend the distance at which a driver to your right can not see you in their mirrors; you also decrease that distance for drivers to your left. Of course, staying to the right of the lane increases that distance for drivers to your left and staying to the left does the opposite. You really should be reading the traffic ahead of you and adjusting your position within your lane based on who's most likely to change lanes ahead of you. Lane sharing, assuming you aren't riding alone, minimizes blind spot distance for drivers on both sides. Confusingly, though safer, this is actually illegal in a few places (or so I've heard, I've never actually lived anywhere where it is).

      Of course, not riding next to my bumper helps; the only close call I've ever had with a motorbike was one guy who WOULD NOT GET OFF MY BUMPER. I signaled, I sped up, I slowed down, I sped up again, I slowed down again, I saw him there the whole time refusing to let me over (to the left, to exit). When my exit came into view I said fuck it; he got out of my way when I started getting over. Fortunately, that's an exceedingly rare occurrence with motorcycles; impossible with pedals because speeding up always works for them (and they shouldn't be on the freeway in the first place).

      Now pedals, they seem to either follow the rules and go unnoticed or dare you to hit them. I had one guy blow a stop sign at a 4 way intersection with a 3 way stop, no stop on my side, turning left in front of my half-completed right turn, so I honked at him. For the next month, he was waiting there every weekday morning to do the same thing to me, so I progressively waited longer before braking each time. He stopped doing it after I got within an inch of him before braking. Would I have been at fault? Hard to say, I had 20+ videos of him doing it on a regular enough basis to show in court that he was riding recklessly, as I drive with a dash cam, so it really could have gone either way. Fortunately, I never saw him again after that (perhaps he did it to someone else and got taken out) because I probably would have nailed him the next time he did it.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    9. Re:Oh great by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      About 80% of the automobile driver's in Tampa Bay should have their licenses revoked. They think you make a right turn by pulling onto the cross walk and blocking it as you wait for your path to be clear. The police are useless, they never cite people for pulling onto the crosswalk. The police chiefs in Pinellas Park, Tampa and St Petersburg, Fl should all be replaced. Especially the one in Pinellas Park, where the situation is awful. Their priorities in how they assign manpower are all screwed up. All police should have to spend a week or two on foot and on bicycle so they know what we go through and what they need to do to help fix the situation.

    10. Re:Oh great by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      I don't disagree. They should also cite cyclists more frequently for breaking the law, as well. I'd say close to 90% of bay area drivers should have their licenses revoked. I tend to speed when I'm in traffic (on the freeway, where your bike shouldn't be anyway, so no, not a danger to you) only to get out of that traffic, because when I go with the flow of traffic I tend to have numerous close-calls, having to evade someone coming into my lane without a signal next to me or dodge out of the way of someone else doing something stupid. Of course, once I'm out of that cluster of traffic, I slow down to the prevailing speed of the next cluster I see ahead of me, so I don't end up catching up to them and having to do the dance all over again.

      Most drivers are just horrible.

      That's precisely why you, on your bike, and I, in my cage, need to be absolutely attentive and take responsibility for our own safety.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
  5. Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Murdoch5 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I can't even count how many times a day a cyclist breaks a traffic law and almost ends up getting hit, in which case that would be entirely there fault! When cyclists start obeying the rules of the road, then we'll finally start seeing cyclist accidents fall.

    1. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by cruff · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I see this all the time also. However to be fair, the other day I observed a Prius driver blow through a stop sign and dart across an intersection in front of a cyclist obeying all the rules. There are all kinds of idiots on the road. Drive defensively like they are all out to kill out.

    2. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by SteveSgt · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I did recently count, on my 10 mile pre-dawn bicycle commute to work, how many motorists I noticed violating traffic law:
      From the helmet-cam video I counted: 11 motorists driving pre-dawn without lights, 8 motorists failing to signal lane changes, 4 motorists failing to signal left turns, 4 motorists failed to come to a complete stop at stop signs, 3 motorists running red lights, I'm guessing at least 8 motorists significantly exceeding the posted speed limit, and two who exceeded the limit where electronic signs were showing them their speed.
      And that's just one Wednesday morning, on some of the least busy streets in my town.
      When are motorists going to start obeying the rules of the road?

    3. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      Sure do wish they would the crossings and stop signs at the top of the hill though.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    4. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Murdoch5 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You're absolutely right, except the number of cyclists who break the laws vs motorists is really unbalanced. I live in Toronto and the number of times a cyclist doesn't stop at a stop sign, traffic light, or will dart amongst traffic, really is getting ridiculous.

    5. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Murdoch5 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How many cyclists don't signal lane changes? How many cyclists don't obey the crossing rules for the road? How many cyclists don't have acceptable lighting? I can do the same thing you're doing and at least in Toronto, cyclists break way more rules then motorists.

    6. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by WalrusSlayer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Ummm, excuse me, but I fucking do obey the law. I stop for stop signs and stop lights. I yield to higher-speed vehicles when safe to do so. I signal turns. Even though I shouldn't have to, I light myself up like a christmas tree with bright flashing lights and reflective material so that you cannot help but notice me (a motorist should be watching for bicyclists just like they watch for cars, but the reality is that they don't, so I give them a helping hand). Occasionally I may "take a lane", which confuses and sometimes pisses off motorists who think I should always be safely 50 fifty beyond the curb. Sorry, I'm a vehicle with all the rights and responsibilities of any other vehicle. Look up your state traffic code to find this out. It is far safer for me to merge into slow-moving traffic (and therefore be seen) than to cower in the right. I represent no more of an obstruction than if I were a car in front of you, Less so as once traffic starts to move again I will move to the right and give you passing room. I will *always* take a lane when I have to turn left and there is a left-hand-turn lane. Just like other cars do. And I do it cautiously, safely, but assertively so that it is clear what I intend. It is by far the safest thing to do (for all the above reasons), and presents no more of an incovenience than a car doing the same thing, beyond the driver getting pissed off by the flawed dogma that "bicycles do not belong on the road". So yes, you've got your free-for-all folks on the road, but that should be a matter of enforcement, to give those bozos a serious reality check. Not only are they endangering themselves and other, but they endanger those of us who take cycling seriously yet have to deal with the road rage inspired by their irresponsible behavior. So please don't lump us all in the same box. Those of us who follow the rules are the ones you don't notice. But we are there and are in plenty supply.

    7. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Murdoch5 · · Score: 1

      You're one a in a million then, come to Toronto and see how bad it gets.

    8. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by pruss · · Score: 2

      I occasionally do see cyclists signaling turns. But I think I have never in my life seen anybody on a bike (other than myself :-) ) ever do the hand signal for stopping (and at least in our state it's required by law).

    9. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by evilviper · · Score: 1

      From the helmet-cam video I counted: 11 motorists driving pre-dawn without lights, 8 motorists failing to signal lane changes

      What state are you in? Here, there's definitely no requirement to signal when just changing lanes going in the same direction. It's a damn good idea, and I still do it religiously, but it's not actually "violating traffic law".

      http://blog.sfgate.com/crime/2...

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    10. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by tylikcat · · Score: 2

      There was a study done one this, mostly pointing out that there was a lot of confirmation bias in play - that people who were incensed at bicyclists not obeying traffic laws generally did not noticed automobile drivers committing similar acts. (This is, of course, a general observation, I can't say jack about you in particular.)

      I think there are a lot of factors here - some are cultural, where people think of bicyclists and interlopers and inappropriate in their use of space, and bicyclists regard automobiles as both physical and idealistic threats. But some of them are design - I've spent most of my time commuting in areas with very low commuter rates (and often high speeds - I am extremely polite and painfully aware of my lack of exoskeleton thank you*.) Some urban designs really don't encourage bicycles and cars to play well together.

      I'm currently living in a midwestern city where the streets are generally not in the best repair but the shoulders are especially dire. Now, really, I'd prefer to ride on the shoulder as much as possible, and be out of everyone's way, but often the state of the shoulder makes that too dangerous. For my commute, and for places I go frequently, I've found routes that don't have this problem, but it's not a great situation (even though local drivers for the most part are considerate if sometimes clueless - I don't need a full carwidth's distance between me and a car, nice thought, not really helping traffic here.)

      * In my Microsoft days, pretty every week at least one person would post to the internal discussion board about having joined the "roadkill club", which is to say having sustained a major injury while commuting.

    11. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by nine-times · · Score: 5, Insightful

      On the other hand, there really should be different rules of traffic for cyclists than for cars. I'm not saying there should be no rules, or that cyclists shouldn't follow the rules, but the rules should just be different. What a cyclist can see and hear is different from someone driving. The acceleration profile is different. The top speed is different, as is the amount of damage they can do. Riding a bicycle safely requires a different set of behaviors than driving safely.

      We don't expect pedestrians to follow the same laws as cars. Let's not pretend that cars and bikes aren't on different footing.

    12. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by CaptainLard · · Score: 1, Interesting

      How often do you thing a cyclist changes lanes? Right hand turns are executed from the right shoulder where they usually ride and left turns are from a standstill if there is any traffic. Yeah I know "I saw this one biker go blah bi de blah blahh". The thing is, if a cyclist is careless they'll get run over. If a motorist is careless they'll run over the cyclist.

    13. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by WalrusSlayer · · Score: 1

      Used to live in Boston and NYC. Plenty of assholes who think they own the road in both cities, on both sides of the equation. But I'll posit that just like how you don't notice the majority of the non-assholes behind the wheel that are not a danger to themselves and others, you also don't notice all the bicycles who *do* know how to share the road, usually with larger vehicles with no interest in sharing.

    14. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      I'm fully convinced most motorists don't know about blinkers or if they do they think it means "I'm coming over to your lane now get the fuck out of my way." As for headlights I recently drove in a blinding rain where I could barely see 25 feet in front of my car. I was amazed at how many shapes in the grey wall appeared suddenly and were cars flashing by. The grey and silver cars are particularly hard to spot. It's gotten to the point now I don't drive in the rain at all if I can help it since about 15 percent of the ignorant fuckers haven't figured out how to turn their lights on in a driving rain. Here's a hint, if you have to turn your wipers on then turn the damn lights on too! They should hard wire the headlights to the wipers so they come on automatically.

    15. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by jopsen · · Score: 1, Flamebait
      br

      When are motorists going to start obeying the rules of the road?

      in the US probably never... maybe when you take away their guns... I'm jokingly implying that there is a similar feeling of entitlement to drive as you wish on the road.

      Having moved to SF from EU I notice that nobody (drivers, cyclists nor pedestrians) obeys the rules (granted cars have a MUCH higher responsibility to so given their capacity for dange). Anyways, considering how the roads and rules are made I fully understand why they aren't honored.

      Here some examples that invites people to do bad things:
      - turn right on a red light (people constantly forget bring the car to a full stop, nor is the intersection clear),
      - lights only required at night (people forget, and it's impossible to distingush active from passive participants, I see people in tunnels without lights on!!!),
      - street parking on major roads (stops traffic in dangerous ways, insanely dangerous for cyclists),
      - stop signs everywhere (makes people gas up and down like maniacs, bad for environment and encourages reckless driving, causes people to ignore stop signs),
      - lack of bike cycle paths (despite the fact that US cities have extremely wide roads compared to European cities, you have plenty of space),
      - grid system treating almost every road as equal, rather than promoting some roads to serve as conduits (keeps cars driving everywhere, and inefficiently so),
      - lack of training, In countries such as Denmark a drivers license requires:
      - 28 x 45 minute study sessions,
      - 4 x 45 minutes closed driving course,
      - 7 hours first aid course,
      - 4 x 45 minutes on wet driving course,
      - 16 x 45 minutes on public road with driving instructor,
      - Test while sitting next to a police officer who loves to flunk you :)

      Credit where credit is due though, I applaude the concept of allowing kids to drive with an adult supervisor present. This is a good way of getting a lot of supervised hours on the road! And it's a lot cheaper than driving with a driving instructor, IMO not a substitute for professional training but a really solid complement.

    16. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Alomex · · Score: 1

      You know the minimum separation between a bicycle and a car in Toronto? It used to be three feet, now it's a meter. I challenge you to count how many cars respect that distance, and if you have any honesty come back and re-state your "number of cyclists who break the laws vs motorists" statements.

      For those who do not live in Toronto here's the short of it: essentially no car whatsoever respects the minimum separation distance. This places motorists breaking the laws at 10-50x those of cyclists.

    17. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      Good observation. Nothing wrong with that. But, I grew up with the understanding that I must obey the same traffic laws as motorists, and I've just accepted that. Your observation is a large part of the reason that I ride a motorcycle, and have no desire to ride a bicycle. 30 ponies (for a 500GL, HP varies of course) between your knees helps to level the playing field, because you can power out of a bad situation. Braking on a motorcycle is usually better than on a bicycle as well. Not always - it depends on what kind of bike you're riding, but usually.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    18. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      ...and you didn't even tally drivers texting!! My 3-mile daily commute on back roads has at least a dozen.

    19. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      Motorcycle or bicycle - if you ride, the question is not, "Will I go down?" but "When will I go down?" If you're on two wheels, you WILL FALL. You either accept that, or you don't, but it doesn't change the facts of life.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    20. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by omnichad · · Score: 1

      ever do the hand signal for stopping

      Seems kind of idiotic to make brake controls that require your hands. I suppose it would be better to install an aftermarket brake light.

    21. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      Keep in mind cyclists have to remove one hand from the handlebar to signal a turn. While I do signal 80%+, braking and balancing for a turn can be hard with only one hand. Stops are even harder...

    22. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      the number of cyclists who break the laws vs motorists is really unbalanced

      If we ignore speeding, sure. And I don't even own a bike,

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    23. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Insanity+Defense · · Score: 1

      As an occasional pedestrian (less than once a month over the last 38 years) in Toronto I can testify that Toronto drivers are lousy. I've got a crossing signal and drivers are forcing their way through the crosswalks pedestrians be damned. I've even had a driver yell at me because he twice attempted to hit me and I refused to give him a third chance when he waved me through the crosswalk he had just vacated. Toronto drivers suck damn it. The cyclists suck too. Not fond of whatever the Toronto Cyclist Union is calling themselves these days either.

    24. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by BronsCon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Ummm, excuse me, but I fucking do obey the law.

      And nobody sees you doing it. The reason everyone who sees you riding your bike thinks you're an asshole is because the only cyclists who disturb traffic enough to actually be noticed are assholes; literally the only cyclists most people ever actually notice (not see, but actually realize they are seeing) are assholes. Cyclists like yourself who, assuming you're being honest with us, obey traffic laws and don't disrupt the flow of traffic, largely go unnoticed. The end result is that you all look like assholes, even though the majority of you are not. If cops would start enforcing traffic laws equally, the problem would largely solve itself; short of that, though, the cyclist community is going to have to start self-policing before things improve.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    25. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by funwithBSD · · Score: 1

      " lights only required at night (people forget, and it's impossible to distingush active from passive participants, I see people in tunnels without lights on!!!),"

      Err, what?

      Only my vintage Honda has the option to turn off the lights, the Fed MANDATE daytime running lights. They are not all that dimmer than a normal headlight.

      And pulsing lights are a huge visibility plus for motorcyclists and bicyclists alike, even taking into consideration target fixation.

      --
      Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
    26. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except there are something like 1000x the number of car drivers as their are bikers. People driving cars are always more dangerous to themselves and the people around them than a person riding a bike. Full. Stop. The fact you think this is some sort of debate proves you are either an idiot, or you have some sort of dog in this fight. Do you drive a taxi or are you just fucking stupid?

    27. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Insanity+Defense · · Score: 1

      The reason most cyclist don't use the hand signal for stop is hand brakes. The left one that applies the brake to the rear wheel is controlled by the same arm you use to signal the braking. The old fashioned pedal controlled braking allowed full braking with the arm signal. Stopping at high speed with only the front brake means wiping out.

    28. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 1

      Many/Most traffic laws are based on the assumption that the vehicle operator cannot see or hear everything relevant to them. You don't have perfect knowledge, so the idea is to at least provide a common set of rules other vehicle operators are also expected to be following. This is equally true when you're on a bike.

      Bicyclists should wait at red lights just like everyone else, for example. It doesn't mean "stop, look, then proceed if you don't see a car crossing". It means you wait until it turns green.

      And if there's not a bike lane, bicyclists should be allowed to use the regular traffic lane and be treated by car drivers as just another vehicle. But that also means when there are a half dozen vehicles waiting at a signal, that bicyclist doesn't decide he can just pass everyone on the right and move to the front (or, worse, cruise through the intersection) - he needs to wait in line like everyone else.

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    29. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      There was a study done one this, mostly pointing out that there was a lot of confirmation bias in play - that people who were incensed at bicyclists not obeying traffic laws generally did not noticed automobile drivers committing similar acts. (This is, of course, a general observation, I can't say jack about you in particular.)

      Even if true, the risks to a cyclist doing something stupid are much greater than the risks to an automobile driver, statistically speaking, because they are much less visible, and they don't have a giant metal box wrapped around them to offer protection. There should be exactly zero cyclists doing these things. If there are enough bad cyclists for us to even notice their poor habits, that's already way too many bad cyclists. If the percentage of cyclists doing these things is comparable to the percentage of motorists doing so, then that is likely to be the cause of a sizable percentage of those cycling deaths, and a negligible percentage of deaths by motorists.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    30. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by WalrusSlayer · · Score: 1

      In NH, signalling turns for a bicycle is NOT required. It's one of the very few exemptions to the traffic code for a bicycle. A bicyclist is required to signal turned *only* if it does not endanger the bicyclist to do so (as parent has pointed out, removing a hand can be a big deal).

      So while certainly more cyclists should exercise more caution in turn signaling, any time you see a cyclist fail to do so is not automatically a violation.

    31. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Insanity+Defense · · Score: 1

      But that also means when there are a half dozen vehicles waiting at a signal, that bicyclist doesn't decide he can just pass everyone on the right and move to the front (or, worse, cruise through the intersection) - he needs to wait in line like everyone else.

      If the cyclist is the first in line and stays at the side of the road the car behind virtually always pulls up beside him. Such a driver often makes a right turn in front of the cyclist who now being beside the driver cannot see the turn signal the driver may or may not be making. If the cyclist waits to find out what that driver is doing the next driver is up beside him and he has to wait again and again or take the risk of going through.

      Fun one I find is when I'm in the bike lane and the car lane is stopped but I'm not drivers will make a sharp right swing of their car and block my lane so I can't go. Obstructing traffic like that is illegal even if it is "only" the bike lane. They get mad as hell if I use a driveway or mall parking lot to go around them. :) Then there are the drivers who come along in the rain watching for pedestrians and swerving into the gutter just as they pass to soak the pedestrian. Lots of asshole drivers who don't obey the law out there. It isn't just cyclists.

    32. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Murdoch5 · · Score: 1

      Okay fair enough, I'll give you that!

    33. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Murdoch5 · · Score: 1

      I cycle a lot and I have a nervous system disorder that leads to me loosing control of my nerves regularly, yet I've never had a problem balancing with only one or no hands on a bike, so that's a pretty weak excuse.

    34. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Murdoch5 · · Score: 1

      Fair enough except where I live it is required, yet I bet 90%+ of cyclists couldn't demonstrate the signals.

    35. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 1

      How often do you thing a cyclist changes lanes?

      Uh, just about anytime a cyclist has to make a left turn at an intersection with the potential for more than one lane. And while some cyclists are conscientious enough to signal when they do this, most seem to just take a quick look around and cross without a signal. This seems fine for them, except when it isn't -- like when a car is coming out of somewhere they didn't think of looking.

      It's the same rule as for cars: signals help tell where you're going, and that's probably the MOST useful when cars come out of places you don't think of looking... which is the reason to use them even when you don't see others around.

      Right hand turns are executed from the right shoulder where they usually ride and left turns are from a standstill if there is any traffic.

      What does this have to do with GP, who was asking how often cyclists signal? It doesn't matter if they are turning right from a cycling lane -- they should still signal. I used to walk to work in a place where lots of cyclists would come by, and I can't tell you how many times I was almost run over by a cyclist who would speed through a red light and either cross the intersection or make a right hand turn at full speed without signalling.

      Again, signals are most important for situations where you don't notice the people who need them. Trying to excuse the fact that cyclists don't use signals because "well, usually they fall into these specific cases..." just doesn't work. By that logic, most cars should never have to use signals either, which is clearly illegal... and for good reason.

      Yeah I know "I saw this one biker go blah bi de blah blahh". The thing is, if a cyclist is careless they'll get run over. If a motorist is careless they'll run over the cyclist.

      Yes, and the unfortunate lesson from this is that cyclists have to be MORE vigilant and more conscious of the "rules of the road" than motorists, because they take a greater risk if anyone does something wrong. We can try to police motorists who break the rules, but the reality is that people make mistakes... and as a cyclist you need to realize who has the power to kill you, whether they are acting rationally or in "good faith" or not.

      Your post reads like someone complaining that wolves could attack and kill humans, so humans should be excused for not paying attention to where wolves might be or for stupid behaviors that end up getting them injured or killed. And maybe that's true, but that's obviously the wrong lesson -- the reality is that the wolves are there, and it's stupid to not do your best to protect yourself, to avoid putting yourself in a situation where you could be hurt or killed.

      I've seen cars hit cyclists, I've seen cyclists hit cars, I've seen cyclists hit pedestrians... it all happens and various people are at fault. One thing that does NOT help is just saying, "Oh, I don't need to signal or obey the 'rules' because somebody else should be."

    36. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's actually a lot of misinformation about when signaling and even where you are supposed to bike is allowed or expected. If you're on a sidewalk biking, you obviously don't need to worry about hand signals. If you're taking up a lane, you do. If you're in a lane specifically designated for biking (usually a narrow lane to the right) then signals aren't needed because you're kind of stuck to that lane; just follow stop signs and such.

      When it comes to accidents, I generally see 4 types.

      1. The biker is just being stupid, and crossing lanes or intersections like an idiot. This is kind of rare, to be honest, unless you include bikers that blow past a stop light or sign when they see no traffic around (that's also kind of stupid of them, but really no different cars doing 'rolling stops' at the signs, or not stopping fully before making a right-hand turn at a red light. dangerous but hardly unique to cyclists).
      2. Drivers don't understand the rules, don't pay attention to anything other than cars, or simply don't care and figure it's up to the cyclists to get out of their way. This one is hugely dangerous and not actually limited to cyclists. You'll see pedestrians nearly get hit because a driver turns into a parking lot without first making sure there's not someone walking or biking on the sidewalk (usually they wait to slow down at the last second, and if they do suddenly break for the person, they probably risk a rear-end collision -- which they'll blame on the cyclist or "came out of nowhere"). Another example is where drivers don't understand what the bike lane is for, and start using it as a turning lane, or park their car there or something.
      3. Drunk drivers. These guys are a hazard for everyone, but overly relaxed penalties across all the states means they aren't going away anytime soon.
      4. "Helpful" drivers. This is probably the most dangerous type of driver that a cyclist has to deal with. An example is what some of us call the "wave of death" which is where you're biking on a sidewalk and you see a car stopping at an intersection or maybe about to pull out of a large parking lot or something. You stop to make eye contact because you don't want to bike in front of her (usually a her, because most guys don't give enough of a shit to even try and be helpful) without knowing she's aware of you. So you stop and she waves at you to cross because she's being friendly and giving you a chance to continue safely. Except that she may not see the car that's about to pull into the crosswalk waiting to make a left-hand turn, or the guy coming at you and is about to do the previously mentioned crazy last-minute right-hand turn into a parking lot. If you take her at her kindness, you might get hit. If you try and wave back and pantomime that you will just wait there a few more moments, they often assume you're being rude or otherwise reinforcing the stereotype of a cyclist that can't integrate with traffic. I even had a woman do this once, and then roll down her window specifically to start cussing me out while yelling about how she was just trying to help me and I threw it back in her face, without realizing she would have gotten me hit or killed because her big ass SUV hid the car approaching next to her, which I wouldn't have seen until I was just passing her (and getting hit).

      I know drivers like to talk about how cyclists should be smarter and need to make sure they have "acceptable" lighting, etc, but they almost never acknowledge the fact that lighting is really only useful in night-time situations, and even then the driver still has the responsibility to look out for pedestrians of all kinds -- bikers and walkers.

      Lastly, it amazes me how many cycling fatalities were also hit-and-runs. I don't know if the driver just panics and figures it wasn't a car so they'll get away with it or what, but so many deaths could be prevented if the person stopped to render aid and call 911.

    37. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have yet to drive on a freeway where most drivers are under the posted limit unless forced to by congestion. I have stood in a crosswalk while traffic streamed by, despite the law requiring them to stop, until finally a driver did stop. Then the traffic on the other side streamed by while I stood in the middle of the street. In short, the idea that cyclists and pedestrians are the ones responsible when they are hit by someone is ludicrous. As drivers of inherently dangerous multi-ton vehicles, we are responsible for operating them in a manner that is safe for others on the road.

    38. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Murdoch5 · · Score: 0

      I know the minimum separation distance is a meter and it's total BS. We've allow cyclists to override the law and create insane amendments to them, such as the nonsensical 1 meter rule. We've allow bike lanes, which are another insane concept we don't need, and yet how many cyclists don't use them, bike outside them or cut across them? How many cyclists cut corners without obeying the walk signal? How many will stop in-front of a moving car with no warning? How many will turn right without obeying the "No right on right" sign?

      Cyclists have pretty much paved there way to having no responsibility in Toronto and yet to spite that, still don't obey the laws. This meter rule is almost un-followable for many reasons. For instance I can't give you a meter of room is that means I have to drive in the wrong lane, because that would violate other laws. I can't give you a meter or room when the entire lane isn't a meter wide. I can't give you a meter of room when you don't hold your fucking distance steady and bike on the curb. I can't give you a meter of room when you decide for no reason to leave a bike lane and enter a driving lane with no warning. I could keep going but I have no need!

      In Toronto many motorists drive like assholes but many more cyclists per capita drive much worse.

    39. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Murdoch5 · · Score: 1

      Oh I'll give credit to the cyclists who share the road fairly and follow the rules, but in Toronto that is less then 1%.

    40. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you for saying this - if my browser hadn't AGAIN lost my login I'd probably have mod points, and I would sure as hell mod you up.

      My take on this is it is the same (broken) us-vs.-them thinking that the vast majority of the USA suffers from.
       
      I don't bike to work anymore after too many brushes with death at the hands of texting drivers. I drive a car to work and everywhere in-between. The number of self-entitled pricks I deal with on a daily basis from the relative safety of my (nice) car has easily convinced me that I will never again bike anywhere unless it is on dedicated bike trails. That doesn't go to work, daycare or the grocery store? Guess I'm not going to be a bike commuter then.

    41. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      I know the minimum separation distance is a meter and it's total BS.

      That's double standards there. You're giving drivers a free pass to laws you don't want to stick to, but not cyclists for laws they don't want to stick to.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    42. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Stopping at high speed with only the front brake means wiping out.

      Eh it's not that. The front brake is the only one with any stopping power anyway. Old saying from XC riders: front brake's for stopping, back brake's for steering.

      When I was biking a lot, and my bike was well tuned, I liked coming to a stop with my back wheel 6 inches off the ground which I could do very reliably. That's about the fastest it's possible to stop on a bike[*], and that's all on the front brake.

      Now, of course you only need one hand to squeeze the brake lever, but there's a gair G force pushing you forward. You need both arms to brace against it. If you only have one hand on the handlebars, you'll push the front wheel right round and that will cause the wipeout.

      TL;DR, braking without both hands on the handlebars massively increases your braking distance.

      [*]I also liked doing skiddies.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    43. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Murdoch5 · · Score: 0

      Not at all, I'm saying if I can give you a meter of room I will, except normally there is no way to do that, so I don't have a choice. The cycling laws in Toronto are made with no second thought to the drivers in the city. For instance I had a cyclist bike into my car the other day because she decided she didn't have to stop well I has turning. She ended up denting my car, and bending her front wheel. She then had the nerve to yell at me for the accident when it was entirely caused by her. Luckily the cops picked my side and she had to pay for it but still!

      This meter passing rule is just an abuse of the power cyclists have over big cities, there was no consideration to what it would it mean to the drivers in Toronto. However there is another solution to all of these problems, the cyclists can start obeying the speed limits and not impede traffic, in that case, I don't care, if you can keep up with traffic and you don't cause me to slow down at all, then great, welcome to the road, other wise stay off it.

    44. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If only someone invented something to signal with a switch...just make lighted turn signals required to ride on any road with a posted speed limit over 30mph.

      And they should be a minimum size and lumens, with at least 12" between them. And you might as well tie them in to the brake system.

    45. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 0

      We don't expect pedestrians to follow the same laws as cars. Let's not pretend that cars and bikes aren't on different footing.

      Funny with the pun (intentionally or not).

      But in all seriousness, we actually DO have pretty strict regulations in most municipalities regarding pedestrians and what they are limited to do on roads and when. Although many pedestrians ignore them, they do so at their own peril. (And the U.S. is different from some other countries in expectations for pedestrians: jaywalking is fairly accepted and crossing at a "Do Not Walk" sign is frequently tolerated. Try doing such things in, say, Germany, and you will at a minimum get dirty looks from old ladies and potentially even get a ticket. There are good reasons for pedestrians to obey most of the "rules of the road" too.)

      And for good reason. There's a set of expectations about how everyone will behave and where it is reasonable for people/bicycles/cars will be.

      Quite simply, roads are dangerous places, with loads of multiple-ton metallic hunks flying around at high speed. Most of the rationale for cyclists to obey the "rules of the road" is for their own safety, just as for pedestrians. So, you're correct that cyclists can't do as much damage or whatever if they mess up, but rules are not just to prevent people from killing or injuring other people -- they are often accepted conventions that help prevent EVERYONE from getting killed or injured by setting up reasonable expectations.

      The problem with setting up a different official set of rule for some vehicles, even bicycles, is that what will ultimately happen is that those cyclists will end up in unexpected places at unexpected times... which increases the chances of collision EVEN IF everyone else is reasonably trying to obey the rules. (I've seen many such situations arise where a cyclist zooms through a red light when a car suddenly pulls out from an unexpected place, and the car has a reasonable expectation that no one will be in the intersection. Sometimes this is a result of obstructed views or close parked cars or difficult traffic situations or whatever... but they all increase chances of unintentional collisions.) And cyclists are even more at risk than pedestrians when they break the rules because (1) they tend to ride on the road more often than pedestrians and (2) they can get themselves to an unexpected location more quickly and suddenly.

      There may well be SOME places where it might be desirable to modify rules for cyclists. But I think those situations are less frequent than cyclists would like, if we actually compare the likely impact of such modifications on overall safety (rather than impatience, which is usually the motivation for most cyclists, who'd prefer to cut corners and run lights because it just gets them to a destination faster.)

    46. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Alomex · · Score: 1

      I'm saying if I can give you a meter of room I will, except normally there is no way to do that, so I don't have a choice.

      You have a choice, which is not passing. As the GP post said, double standard.

      This meter passing rule is just an abuse of the power cyclists have over big cities,

      Somebody call a whambulance, baby in 2000 pound car is afraid of big mean 20 pound bicycle.

    47. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by silas_moeckel · · Score: 1

      Treating bikes like cars is fine, this should include not causing an obstruction. So if you can not keep up with traffic you need to pull over and let people pass you.

      --
      No sir I dont like it.
    48. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Murdoch5 · · Score: 0

      It's an abuse of power because as long as I pass you without hitting you, it was enough room.

    49. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Alomex · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I know the minimum separation distance is a meter and it's total BS.

      I knew from the kindergarden whine tone of your post that you would turn into chicken shit when confronted to the facts.

      For instance I can't give you a meter of room is that means I have to drive in the wrong lane, because that would violate other laws. I can't give you a meter or room when the entire lane isn't a meter wide. I can't give you a meter of room when you don't hold your fucking [very mature] distance steady and bike on the curb.

      If you can't give a meter then you must follow behind until you can find the space to safely pass. That is what the law says. Laws you seemed to care so much about when they were bottle feeding your baby tantrum and now you try to dismiss so quickly when they work against you.

      And by the way, I'm a driver not a cyclist. I just simply have no respect for 2000 pound iron driving cowards complaining about 20 pound cycling vehicles.

    50. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Alomex · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Says you, from the comfort and safety or your car. When cycling a small crack in the pavement can require a cyclist to swerve unexpectedly one or two feet. That is why minimum separation laws are there and must be followed, that is also why is even better to have separate lanes so the issue doesn't come up at all, but we have a ways to go before we get there.

    51. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Murdoch5 · · Score: 1

      Absolutely!

    52. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

      It is just irresponsible and completely unsafe to take your hands off the steering wheel to signal, or for any other reason. You need both hands to safely control a bicycle. Sure, it is possible if nothing happens to cost forwards with even no hands on the steering, but a bump in the road or any situation that requires your active participation to avoid because huge hazards.

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    53. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Insanity+Defense · · Score: 1

      I can't give you a meter or room when the entire lane isn't a meter wide.

      That is bloody hilarious. If the lane isn't a meter wide your car won't FIT in it and you don't belong there anyhow.

      The reason for the meter is the wind of passage. You pass at too high a speed, especially with a big vehicle and you suck the bike into you. The closer you are the smaller the vehicle and lower the speed to suck in the cyclist. Give the meter and the cyclist isn't as affected and has time to pull away. Also some vehicles have mirrors that project far enough out to wipe out the cyclist, especially trucks where those mirrors can strike the head of the cyclist.

    54. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tell that to the many cyclist who died while always obeying the rules.

      My idea is that cyclists who make themselves visible by riding in front of cars, riding near the middle of the road instead of staying on a dangerous bike lane, coming in front of the cars on a stop light, or even going through a red light when there is no traffic, are higher on Darwin's evolutionary ladder.

      I've a nephew who was run over by a truck on a bike lane. The truck driver was busy with his GPS device to get to the next customer and just went on autopilot until he could feel the bump of his wheels touching the gutter that was in between the bike lane and road lane. If my nephew just did like those dangerous cyclists and drove on the road lane, he would still be alive.

    55. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Alomex · · Score: 3, Informative

      Bicyclists should wait at red lights just like everyone else, for example. It doesn't mean "stop, look, then proceed if you don't see a car crossing". It means you wait until it turns green.

      This is called an Idaho stop and is legal in Idaho and Paris, France. Evidence is still out as to safety.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    56. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

      I do not care how you signal your are braking, it is simply unsafe to brake without both hands holding onto and controlling the steering bar. not that it is much safer to do anything on a bike without both hands firmly on the handle bars.

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    57. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Murdoch5 · · Score: 1

      Well the problem is that I've seen hundreds and hundreds and cyclists swing out in-front of cars with no warning and stop quickly with no hand signal. I don't pass cyclists because "I'm afraid of them", I pass them because they represent a danger to the road and themselves. The other day on Spadina, I literally had a cyclist swing in front of me, then fall over, which if I hadn't slammed the break, they would of been killed or very badly injured, I would of passed earlier except I didn't have a meter to do so, hence it's a stupid law that doesn't have any need.

    58. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by jeti · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Bicyclists should wait at red lights just like everyone else, for example. It doesn't mean "stop, look, then proceed if you don't see a car crossing". It means you wait until it turns green.

      Why? You make an assertion without providing a reason. Starting at the same time as cars exposes bicyclists to the risk of both right hooks and left hooks. Fully stoppimg also means that the bike is longer on the crossroads. If the crossing road is obviously clear of traffic, it can be safer to run the light. At least thats what a study conducted in Paris concluded. As a result, bicyclists are now explicitly allowed to run red lights at a few marked crossings.

    59. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by a+whoabot · · Score: 1

      If you live in Toronto then you know that the number of motorists who break the law is pretty is pretty much all of them. I cannot recall every seeing a motorist consistently drive 100 or under on the 400 series. Virtually everyone goes over 100 at some point. So virtually every motorist breaks the law.

    60. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Murdoch5 · · Score: 1

      I actually do drive 100 on the 401, 404, 407, 403 and 409 because I once got a ticket for going 110.

    61. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by jeti · · Score: 2

      I have yet to meet a motorist who stricly adheres to the speed limits. Or one who doesn't run a yellow light even though he could stop safely. Motorists seem to be very aware of the rules that bicyclists are breaking while they shrug off their own lawlessness as both normal and acceptable. At the same time, motorists kill thousands of people per year in the US alone and are most often at fault when a bicyclist gets hurt.

    62. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Murdoch5 · · Score: 1

      I stop at all yellow lights as I once got a ticket for running an amber light and I strictly adhere to all speed limits.

    63. Re: Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The difference is that one dangers his own life and the other dangers the life of others. Just today I counted how many drivers try to look to the side when turning. About 70%. That means that the rest would have hit someone had there been anyone coming. I wonder how anyone can survive there. It is just pure luck.

    64. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, I love how people only turn on their blinkers right as they start switching lanes. They don't use them to give other drivers a chance to back up a little or slow down or just be aware of what's happening.

    65. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Calydor · · Score: 1

      Let's see you say that while someone is taking pot shots at you with a rifle. Hey, none of the shots actually HIT but I'm sure you would rather be without hearing the bullet whistle past your ear.

      --
      -=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
    66. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And I constantly see car drivers daily rolling stops, cutting other people off, not using signals. You notice the cyclists because they stand out against all the other vehicles on the road. I see the cars doing it because they stand out when I ride. I run bright blinking lights even in the day, and still have cars that think they have room to right-hook or left-cross me.

    67. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Calydor · · Score: 1

      Interesting question here:

      Were those laws written when pedal brakes were the norm, before handbrakes as the only kind of braking became a 'smart' thing to do?

      --
      -=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
    68. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Calydor · · Score: 1

      At what speeds?

      Other posts here demand bikes be able to keep up with the speed limit; can YOU reliably brake with the handbrake with no hands on your bike from doing 35 miles per hour?

      --
      -=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
    69. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Murdoch5 · · Score: 1

      Does it matter? You can easily break with one hand and signal.

    70. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 1

      Or one who doesn't run a yellow light even though he could stop safely.

      It's important to note that 75% of states have so-called "permissive yellow" laws that allow motorists to "run a yellow light." The law in most states is that you can actually enter an intersection when the light is yellow (and, in fact, it's generally safer to do so rather than stopping suddenly). If you are in an intersection when the light is red in these states, you have not committed a violation, as long as you entered when the light was yellow and you clear the intersection as quickly and safely as possible. It's only a minority of states that criminalize entering an intersection on a yellow light (a policy that many traffic safety engineers don't encourage, unless the yellow is preceded by a blinking green or something).

      Anyhow, I don't know where you live, but I've met many people who think everyone should obey "restrictive yellow" policies when they actually live in states that have a "permissive yellow" law.

      At the same time, motorists kill thousands of people per year in the US alone and are most often at fault when a bicyclist gets hurt.

      Your linked article doesn't actually provide useful statistics on determining whether motorists or cyclists are more likely to be "worse drivers." All your link says is that:

      With adult cyclists, police found the driver solely responsible in about 60%-75% of all cases, and riders solely at fault 17%-25% of the time.

      That implies that when an accident occurs, the motorist is more often at fault. But it does NOT mean a larger percentage of motorists are likely to cause accidents compared to cyclists. To make that determination, you'd need to know the proportion of cyclists and motorists on roads.

      To give an extreme example, imagine a situation where there are 1000 motorists on the road for every cyclist in a particular area where they encounter each other. If motorists and cyclists were equally safe in driving, then cyclists should only be responsible for about 0.1% of accidents. If cyclists are instead responsible for 17-25% of accidents (as in your link), then the percentage of "bad cyclists" is likely at least an order of magnitude (or even two orders of magnitude) higher than the percentage of "bad motorists" in these interactions, even if motorists are at fault more of the time.

      Basically, if you use the stats in your link, you'd need the ratio of motorists to cyclists to be less than about 5:1 in order for the motorists to be demonstrably "worse" demographically than cyclists in causing these accidents. There aren't many cities where cyclists travel over 20% of the number of miles that cars travel on streets, so it's still likely (based on your link) that cyclists are demonstrably more likely to cause accidents, taken as a percentage of cyclists as a whole.

      To be clear -- I'm NOT at all excusing motorists, whom you are correct to point out need to be more vigilant because they are driving far more dangerous machines which are much more likely to cause serious injury. I absolutely agree that motorists have a greater responsibility to be careful, and many aren't. But if you're trying to figure out who are "worse" in obeying traffic laws and ending up in accidents proportionally, you need more information to make a determination.

    71. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 1

      ...out of how many total motorists?

      Look, I can point my fingers at cars and cyclists. The whole argument is just stupid. Yes, cars break the rules. Yes, bicyclists break the rules. Does this solve any problem? No. It's just a whine of "You're picking on me!! It's not fair!!"

      The issue that I have with cyclists isn't that they break the law--everybody does it. It's just that cyclists believe they shouldn't have to obey them.

      There was an incident I read about recently where, due to local complaints, the police hung out around a stop sign and ticketed road users who did not come to a complete stop. They busted a half-dozen car drivers and around 2 dozen bicyclists.

      The car drivers paid their tickets. The bicyclists raised a ruckus about how it wasn't fair and the police were targeting them and it wasn't right and they shouldn't have to pay a ticket for driving through a stop sign and the police should be out solving real crimes and not wasting time on bicyclists not stopping at stop signs and bicycling saves the environment and gives exercise and they shouldn't be getting tickets for doing that and everybody is picking on them and it's just not fair!!

      Look, a driver in a car is protected by several tons of government-mandated safety equipment. You're not. It's in your interest to follow the traffic laws. If I'm driving a car, run a red light, and I'm broadsided by another car, there's a good chance I'll survive. If I'm bicycling, run a red light, and I'm broadsided by a car, I'm probably dead. So the solution is not to somehow expect a car to stop when I run a red light. The solution is don't run a red light!

    72. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unfortunately I have seen a lot of cyclist being stupid. In the past 6 years, I have had 3 near misses with cyclists. All 3 were due to cyclists running a red light at night with no reflectors or headlights on their bikes while wearing all black clothing. I have seen 0 bicyclists wearing a helmet in the last decade. There are some that obey traffic laws, but they seem to be the exception rather than the rule.

    73. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by emj · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There are good reasons for pedestrians to obey most of the "rules of the road" too.)

      There are no good reasons. Jaywalking was a highly controversial concept when it was promoted as the future. I'm glad we are starting think about it again. If the infrastructure is for cars, then a cyclist or pedestrian has a hard time being law abiding. If there is good infrastructure for cyclists and pedestrians then it's easy to follow the law.

      I do not see you thinking anything about safety, but just how to make pedestrians and cyclists give space to cars. If that is the foundation of your arguments, and mine are built on the reverse then it's going to be hard to discuss.

    74. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Calydor · · Score: 1

      Yes, you break quite easily like that.

      A lot of comments here are 'demanding' that bikes follow the speed limits. Now, it's been a lot of years since I was last on a bike, but I can't imagine braking from 35 mph or there-about with one hand being any kind of fun, safe, or good for the wrist.

      --
      -=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
    75. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by bugs2squash · · Score: 1

      But if I'm stopped at a red light, with my R turn signal going it means I intend to turn right when the traffic clears. That is NOT the time to overtake me on the inside in the cycle lane.

      --
      Nullius in verba
    76. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know what you need to get the cyclists to obey the laws? Enforcement. Getting pulled over for a warning can put the fear of God into you, and can be done in a nice way.

    77. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Turn signals are widely used in California at least. It's how you apologize after someone avoids a collision, or a thank you for letting you in in heavy traffic. But like everywhere, there are assholes on the road with no manners.

      [ What? Turn signals have a functional purpose? Not believing you. ]

    78. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can't count how many times a day I see auto drivers break traffic laws...

    79. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by SteveSgt · · Score: 1

      California requires signaling lane changes:
      [ https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/... ]

    80. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How many cyclists don't signal lane changes? How many cyclists don't obey the crossing rules for the road? How many cyclists don't have acceptable lighting? I can do the same thing you're doing and at least in Toronto, cyclists break way more rules then motorists.

      And neither cyclists nor motorists are pulled over and ticketed. Enforcement is something that hardly anyone talks about. Start nailing people to the proverbial law under the Highway Traffic Act and you'll see a change in behaviour. (I also live in TO.)

    81. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here's a PSA for them:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yiu1uLgwF1E

    82. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by rhubarb42 · · Score: 1

      do you drive a car? I bet you do. I do, and i ride a bike. i bet you speed once in a while. I do. no one is perfect.

    83. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by cats-paw · · Score: 1

      how any cyclists are riding bikes that weigh 3000 pounds ?

      --
      Absolute statements are never true
    84. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There was a study done one this, mostly pointing out that there was a lot of confirmation bias in play - that people who were incensed at bicyclists not obeying traffic laws generally did not noticed automobile drivers committing similar acts.

      Because I always see cars creating a lane one the side of the road when traffic is stopped, or riding lane divider when the rest of traffic is stopped.

      (Yes, I have seen cars shoulder riding, but always on the highway, and never on city streets--Now that I think about it, the shoulder riders were probably also bicyclists. )

      And then there are the times where there's even a dedicated bicycle lane, but a mob of them get together and block the lane of traffic as well. So even when they're given their own space, they're ingrates and don't respect the space for cars.

    85. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by pigwiggle · · Score: 1

      Not at all, I'm saying if I can give you a meter of room I will, except normally there is no way to do that, so I don't have a choice.

      I'm teaching by oldest daughter how to ride her bike in traffic. I think her most important lesson is to learn just how entitled drivers can be. And this comment captures it nicely. You've gone on and on about how cyclists don't follow traffic law, and in the same breath talk about how you wont if it's inconvenient. If you can't give the proper distance, then you can't legally pass. End of story. It doesn't matter if you like the law. Or you're late for work. Or whatever. It's the law.

      --
      46 & 2
    86. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Murdoch5 · · Score: 1

      If you want to pull that angle, but in the same regard, if your a cyclist can you can't make road speed, then you're impeding traffic and are breaking a law anyway, so if I can't give you a meter to pass you, and you aren't going the speed limit, we cancel each other out.

    87. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      How many bicycles are on the 400s?

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    88. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're on the road, you must follow the rules of the road. Amish buggies & horse drawn carriages have yet another profile for speed - yet they must follow the same rules are cars & bikes.

      We're not talking about complex stuff here - stop at a stop sign. Don't pass in a no-passing area.

      If a bike rider can't manage those basics, they shouldn't be on the roads at all.

    89. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by LetterRip · · Score: 1

      Bicyclists should wait at red lights just like everyone else, for example. It doesn't mean "stop, look, then proceed if you don't see a car crossing". It means you wait until it turns green.

      In many states, bicycles are also allowed to cross during walk on crosswalks (actually it is often a city decision as opposed to state law). They don't necessarily have to follow the laws of motorised vehicles exclusively.

    90. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tu Quoque argument. Just because someone else does something doesn't negate the previously stated argument against cars.

      Also, as has been said before, cyclists should not necessarily have the same laws.

      Lastly, cars don't deserve any special consideration when compared to bikes on the road, though most car drivers think they should. Driving a car does not make you special when the laws of the roads accommodate both cars and bikes.

    91. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Goat+of+Death · · Score: 1

      That would be because it's unreasonably dangerous in most cases to hand signal a stop. You need both hands on your brakes to do the stop and your stability decreases as you apply the brakes. Signaling a stop is more dangerous in the vast majority of cases for the cyclist. The laws and reality do not match.

    92. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by penguinoid · · Score: 1

      Front break is for doing cartwheels ;-)

      --
      Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
    93. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      California requires signaling lane changes:

      Yes SteveSgt, congratulations, you just found a citation which says precisely the same thing as that which you purported to disagree with. Both your citation and the prior one state that you need not signal lane changes if no other vehicle may be affected.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    94. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by pigwiggle · · Score: 3, Informative

      if your a cyclist can you can't make road speed, then you're impeding traffic and are breaking a law anyway

      No. You're ignorant of the law. Cyclist aren't required to make road speed. And your ignorance demonstrates something I've long suspected. Motorist who complain about cyclists breaking the law are in some fashion complaining about laws they imagine to exist.

      --
      46 & 2
    95. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Even though I shouldn't have to, I light myself up like a christmas tree with bright flashing lights and reflective material so that you cannot help but notice me (a motorist should be watching for bicyclists just like they watch for cars

      Cars are legally obligated to carry bright lights, and there are strict rules on which ones are required to flash, which ones are not permitted to flash, what color they have to be, what color the reflectors have to be, etc. Part of motorists watching out for bicyclists just like they watch out for cars is you carrying lights and reflectors. Congratulations, you are getting precisely what you asked for.

      Those of us who follow the rules are the ones you don't notice. But we are there and are in plenty supply.

      Bullshit. I notice cyclists whether they follow the law or not, because that's part of driving. Most of us notice you more than you think, otherwise you'd all be dead now. It's rare I see a cyclist that I don't have the opportunity to see them break the law.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    96. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by drinkypoo · · Score: 1, Insightful

      You have a choice, which is not passing.

      I don't know it works in Toronto, but here in California everyone is required to pull over to permit passing when possible if there are five or more vehicles being held up by them. Well, many a time I've been a part of a chain of more than five vehicles being held up by some douche taking up a lane in the city, or practicing his downhill on the mountain roads, and not doing very well. In either case, the cyclist is required to simply pull over and permit the vehicles to pass, just like any other user of the road. Guess how often that happens?

      I'm also fuck-tired of cyclists who feel like they should ride right on the line because there's some sharp things over on the right hand side of their lane. Get better tires. That's what we have to do. It's not legal for us to drive over a cyclist to avoid a larger road hazard, like some jerkoff in our lane coming the other way for example. If you want everyone to follow the same standard, suck it up and plan for the roads you have, not the roads you want, and leave the race tires at home.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    97. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      Road speeds exist only on motorways and bicycles aren't allowed there. Unfortunately, too many drivers are too stupid to understand that the speed limit is a speed limit, not recommended or required speed.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    98. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by damienl451 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      A lot of it is just jealously: drivers are incensed they have to wait at red lights when cyclists *sometimes* run the red light if it's safe to do so. The fact that it's against the law is mostly irrelevant: when the law changes to recognize that it's perfectly safe to do so at many intersections, drivers keep bitching about it, except that they now complain that the law is always favoring cyclists. Same for when lots of cities in Europe started allowing cyclists go against traffic in one-way streets (with signs and ground markings to warn drivers), even though it's perfectly safe. The vast majority of cyclists don't have a death wish: we're not going to blaze through a busy intersection with cars going 30+ MPH. On the other hand, there are many situations that do warrant running the red light. Simple example that I encounter daily: I reach the end of the bike lane and I'm supposed to be waiting for the green light at the Advanced stop line/bike box. Except that 90% of the time, there is already a car in that box, because some drivers think that it's just a buffer area that they're free to use. Which means that I'd be forced to wait right next to a car or, worse, a van or truck, which may or may not look when they decide to turn right. So, the safest course of action in this case would be for me to run the red light and take my rightful position in front of the car that has taken the safe spot the law provided for me. But, if I've already run the red light and now notice that there is no traffic in sight, I might as well keep going and clear the intersection. I've never endangered myself, or anyone else, whenever I've run a red light. Virtually all of my 'close calls' have been at uncontrolled intersections where I had the right of way, or when the light was green, and someone decided to turn right without looking properly.

    99. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except there are something like 1000x the number of car drivers as their are bikers

      Last time I checked, there were far more bikes in the world than cars.

    100. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by sociocapitalist · · Score: 1

      I can't even count how many times a day a cyclist breaks a traffic law and almost ends up getting hit, in which case that would be entirely there fault! When cyclists start obeying the rules of the road, then we'll finally start seeing cyclist accidents fall.

      Not when the driving factor for the increase in accidents is an overall increase in the number of cyclists, which is the actual reason if we ignore the sensationalist title of the summary.

      --
      blindly antisocialist = antisocial
    101. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by sociocapitalist · · Score: 1

      You're absolutely right, except the number of cyclists who break the laws vs motorists is really unbalanced. I live in Toronto and the number of times a cyclist doesn't stop at a stop sign, traffic light, or will dart amongst traffic, really is getting ridiculous.

      France is changing the law with new signs that indicate when a cyclist can run a light - with caution (i.e. blinking yellow).
      http://www.bbc.com/news/magazi...

      "It is important to note that the change only affects right turns or going straight on at a T-junction - in other words where the cyclist can hug the pavement.
      At a crossroads, even if there is no traffic, bikes will still have to wait for the green to go straight on."

      --
      blindly antisocialist = antisocial
    102. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Murdoch5 · · Score: 1

      I know they're not required to make road speed, but I've already complained to Toronto city council and Ontario several times about this. If I decided to drive about 10 km/h down a major road, not highway, I'd get a ticket for impeding traffic, or at least should. If a cyclist does that same thing, they're being a green warrior and saving the planet, it's a double standard that doesn't need to exist.

    103. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Murdoch5 · · Score: 1

      That's not true, in Ontario, cyclists can bike on almost any roadway, just not highways, so they really do cause a big problem.

    104. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Murdoch5 · · Score: 1

      Toronto needs to start doing stuff like this and making enforceable rules for cyclists.

    105. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The risk though only exists if a driver is also a prick.

      Your car has brakes. You have eyes. You don't look at the red light and then just go as soon as it's green, you wait until its green AND CHECK IT IS CLEAR. ONLY THEN do you go.

      Did you not get taught ANYTHING before you got your license?

    106. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by jabuzz · · Score: 1

      Black vehicles are by far the most likely to be involved in an accident. White is probably the safest, though yellow and orange are also very safe.

    107. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Drethon · · Score: 1

      Except from the pictures, the only intersection types where this is being allowed is when bikes wont be traveling into cross traffic. In a lot of places in the US, a car can proceed on red when other traffic is not present. At least in my state, you can turn right on red in all intersections and turn left on red onto a 1 way, unless otherwise posted.

      In the case of crossing roads, traffic is not allowed to proceed on a red light where I live. I don't see why bikes should be allowed to do this as they take longer to cross an intersection than a car does. Thus putting them at greater risk of an unseen car entering the intersection at high speed.

    108. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nice red herring, ass. What else do you want to apply on a world average?

    109. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by jittles · · Score: 1

      You're absolutely right, except the number of cyclists who break the laws vs motorists is really unbalanced. I live in Toronto and the number of times a cyclist doesn't stop at a stop sign, traffic light, or will dart amongst traffic, really is getting ridiculous.

      Well all of that depends on context, really. I live in a beach community with a lot of bicyclists. Most of them are people going to/from the beach, but a lot of people drive out to the beach to do long distance cycling on the coast, too. The road cyclists will get into a long chain of 50+ bikes and will run every stop sign they come across. There's about a 20% chance that a beach goer will stop for a stop sign. Everyone here knows what to expect and they wave the beach goers through stop signs preferring just to get them out of the way ASAP. When I am bicycling, I only stop for a stop sign if there is traffic. Otherwise I keep going, but at a reduced speed. To be quite honest with you, I wish that bicyclists could treat stop signs as a conditional yield - slow down if you see no traffic, stop if there are vehicles waiting for a turn to go. But then the question is, how do you enforce that? Bicyclists need to be more careful, but motorists should be more careful around bicycles as well.

    110. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It means you wait until it turns green.

      I normally do exactly this until I sit waiting at a "smart light." Many of them don't have sensors sensitive enough to trip when a bike is sitting there. I'm not sitting for 10 minutes waiting for a light or schlepping my bike over to the crosswalk when there aren't any vehicles around for literally miles in any direction.

    111. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but here in California everyone is required to pull over to permit passing when possible if there are five or more vehicles being held up by them.

      No issues there. In Minnesota, a bicycle is a vehicle but is required to not unreasonably impede traffic. Most cyclists here generally move over to the right to get out of the way.

      I'm also fuck-tired of cyclists who feel like they should ride right on the line because there's some sharp things over on the right hand side of their lane.

      And now you're solidly stupid. There are many reasons to not ride in the gutter and no size tire is going to protect you from those reasons. Maybe you should actually try cycling sometime in a variety of roads and locales to find out why.

    112. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by nine-times · · Score: 1

      If the infrastructure is for cars, then a cyclist or pedestrian has a hard time being law abiding.

      And I think this is a good point. I live in NYC and walk all over the place. I (and I think most people who live here) treat crossing signals more as suggestions than binding law. And there's a good reason for this. If I just cross blindly when then signal says I can, I will probably get hit by a car. I can't trust it at all. On the other hand, the sign might say "don't walk" when I can see a few blocks down the street and see that absolutely nobody is coming. After a while of taking "walk" as a suggestion that can't be trusted and knowing that it tells you "don't walk" when you clearly can, you just take the whole thing as a suggestion, and you just treat the whole thing as-- I was going to say "a guideline", but not even that. It's a dumb automated system offering its input as to when it's safe to walk, when it clearly has no idea. You walk when you can tell that it's safe to walk.

      And that's at least partially because the whole system was built for cars. The roads were built for cars, the stoplights, for cars. The pedestrian crosswalk signs were just built to signal when the cars are supposed to be stopping anyway, but they're not really build for pedestrians, as though they're providing any special accommodation.

    113. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by nine-times · · Score: 1

      I reach the end of the bike lane and I'm supposed to be waiting for the green light at the Advanced stop line/bike box. Except that 90% of the time, there is already a car in that box, because some drivers think that it's just a buffer area that they're free to use.

      This is a good example. I personally favor a cyclist having the right to pass through red lights or stop signs, without necessarily coming to a complete stop, so long as they slow and check to see if anyone is coming. People have such a hard time with the idea, and I have a hard time explaining why I think it's appropriate. However, my reasons essentially boil down to this: I've have multiple situations where I don't think a car will see me, or I'm near a car that I believe will put my in danger, or I'm near a car that I don't think will respect my being there, and I need some motion or a head start so that I'm not putting myself in danger.

      I think maybe it depends on where you live, what kind of infrastructure there is, and what the drivers are doing. However, I think drivers often get frustrated by the fact of a cyclist being on a road. They'll drive recklessly around you out of inattention, frustration/aggression, or sometimes because they don't want you to get in front of them and possibly slow them down. Whatever the reason, I've seen some reckless bullshit on the road that has almost gotten me killed, even when I'm being very safe. I once even had a guy in an SUV at a stop light back into me, apparently not bothering to look into his rear view mirror before backing up, though maybe he did and was just thinking, "fuck this guy on his stupid bike!"

      But whatever. The point is, if I have to choose between going before the light turns green and getting myself killed, I'm going. I don't think the law should oppose that.

    114. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by bitingduck · · Score: 1

      You just notice them because they stand out among the drivers. I drive and I ride. Virtually all drivers are continually breaking laws, from speeding to rolling stop signs without coming to a complete stop, to failure to signal (or in many cases even look!) before changing lanes. And in Toronto? Canadians are on average nice, polite people, more so than in the US, but are also terrible scofflaw drivers, possibly worse than I see in LA.

    115. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      And now you're solidly stupid. There are many reasons to not ride in the gutter and no size tire is going to protect you from those reasons. Maybe you should actually try cycling sometime in a variety of roads and locales to find out why.

      Fuck that, first I'm asthmatic so it's just not going to happen, cycling is for flat ground or downhill for me. Second, I love life.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    116. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by bitingduck · · Score: 1

      I don't know it works in Toronto, but here in California everyone is required to pull over to permit passing when possible if there are five or more vehicles being held up by them. Well, many a time I've been a part of a chain of more than five vehicles being held up by some douche taking up a lane in the city, or practicing his downhill on the mountain roads, and not doing very well. In either case, the cyclist is required to simply pull over and permit the vehicles to pass, just like any other user of the road.

      I'm also in California and ride in the mountains at least one and often two days every weekend. I also drive in the mountains. Do you know how often I see traffic bunched up behind a bicycle (up or down)? Almost never. Do you know how often I see it bunched up behind a slow car? Every 20 minutes on low traffic roads. Do you know how many drivers I see passing other drivers (who are doing the speed limit) across double yellow though blind curves on mountain roads? At least once per ride, and if you're out at commute times it's every few miles. Fortunately when these idiots hit a wall or another car and shut the road for a while, I can at least most to the front of the line so I can get down the mountain before the next guy sticks his car or motorcycle into a wall.

    117. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by bitingduck · · Score: 1

      Motorcycle or bicycle - if you ride, the question is not, "Will I go down?" but "When will I go down?" If you're on two wheels, you WILL FALL. You either accept that, or you don't, but it doesn't change the facts of life.

      That's really not true.

      While learning, yes, but outside of riding on icy roads or racing, you should never crash. Really. I've been riding for decades (road, mountain, track, including a lot of racing) and once enumerated all my crashes for a study. They were all either racing or riding in winter on icy snow roads. If you're falling on dry roads you're doing it wrong.

    118. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by qui_tollis · · Score: 1

      There can be very good reasons to not obey a red light. In roads poorly designed for cyclists, going through a red light - with appropriate care - takes you out of a dangerous position, e.g. next to a large truck that is maybe planning to turn but isn't bothering to indicate. Of course hurtling through a red light without looking as Darwin award worthy, but I rarely see that in London. As for waiting in line - in the UK it's perfectly legal to pass stationary traffic - even encouraged as there is sometimes a section dedicated to cyclists between the lights and where vehicles have to stop, for exactly this purpose. Again it reduces how often cyclists are caught in a dangerous road position.

    119. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no dumbass, the reason is that people pulling into the street from a parking lot see the green light and plan to go, they don't see the cyclist who's behind a light pole or something and planning to run the red light.

    120. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Botched · · Score: 1

      I find it hard to be jealous of something that does not exist. If bikers were allowed to run red lights, then I would be jealous. As it is, I just consider them idiots (doing unexpected and illegal things is an easy way to cause an accident, and they are taking their life into their hands).

    121. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here's the difference:

      Exceeding the speed limit, Driving pre-dawn without lights, failing to signal lane changes, failing to signal turns: Rarely causes accidents.
      Failing to come to a complete stop at stop signs (I assume you mean they slowed down significanly): Occasionally causes accidents.
      Running red lights: Causes accidents.

      What I see cyclists doing:

      Riding through crosswalks, running red lights, running stop signs (not slowing at all or even looking), rolling past vehicles turning right to their right, riding incredibly slowly in the middle lane (causing drivers to pass in oncoming traffic), sliding across three lanes in 30 metres of space, turning into traffic without taking into account the speed differential (ie: Can the driver you just blocked brake safely in time?): Causes accidents frequently
      Not signalling turns, not ringing bell to alert presence, riding on the sidewalk: Rarely causes accidents

      The difference is that what cyclists do wrong often results in injury, or even death. The proportion of idiots is similar, but what each set does wrong has far different consequences. Cyclists need to get licenses so we know they actually understand the results of the poor decisions certain ones make and get them off the road (in this way the good cyclists will be left and will reduce the injury rate, and make everyone on the road much happier). It will also be an opportunity to download the costs of building new cycling lanes/cycling signals/cycling trails to the users of them, rather than having everyone pay for it. The fact it is supposed to make people healthier doesn't really matter---do you pay for my gym membership? Would you like to start?

    122. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes. Exactly this. Bikes are a 3rd thing. We are not cars and we are not pedestrians.
      We can't stop We are also in connected groups very often and we can't do a typical 1 by 1 at a stop light as a car would do.

      Sure, we draft in a group, but most of my groups are more about the safety in numbers aspect. We're not safer if we're all spread out as would happen if we all stopped separately at a 4 way stop sign.

    123. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bicyclists should wait at red lights just like everyone else, for example. It doesn't mean "stop, look, then proceed if you don't see a car crossing". It means you wait until it turns green.

      Why? You make an assertion without providing a reason

      Why? Because it's the fucking law, that's why.

    124. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Toshito · · Score: 1

      The answer to this problem is not running a red light, it's installing a light for bikes only. Just like there are lights for pedestrians, these specific intersections should have a green light for bikes, turned on before the regular green light for the cars, and after the pedestrians crossing. Then everyone can get safely on the other side.

      --
      Try it! Library of Babel
    125. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by mlw4428 · · Score: 1

      Maybe fair point, but I as a motorist don't have to worry about what you're doing. 1 ton of metal > 275lbs of bicycle + man.

    126. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      You've most likely been lucky. Often enough, it isn't YOUR FAULT that you go down. The first time I ever laid a motorcycle down on pavement? A New York City cop ran a red light. No flashers, no siren, I had the right of way - that is, I had the green light. I noticed that blue and white car while I was jockying my way across some trolley tracks. Tracks behind me, I looked again, I still had the green light, looked at the cop again, and he was RIGHT THERE! My choices were, hit the brakes, or hit him. I lost control when the rear brake locked, and went out from under me.

      So - yes, I did it wrong, but then, it wasn't my "fault" either.

      The cop? He kept on going, acted like he never saw me.

      Your fault, another cyclist's fault, a driver's fault, some stupid dog, a child, eventually the odds catch up with all of us.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    127. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      No! Motorists break way more rules than cyclists.

      That is doing the same thing as you're doing. Making a claim completely unsubstantiated by any data what so ever other than confirmation bias.
      You want your comments to be taken serious, start posting some police reports which you don't have.

      I for one agree with the parent. I see maybe 10 cyclists on the way to work every day and none of them break any laws. I see maybe 200 cars and would be dishing out about 30 fines if I were an arsehole cop, and that's just watching driving behaviour without considering that some 20% of motorosts are likely doing something illegal just by being on the road (driving under suspended license, driving an unregistered vehicle, driving a non-roadworthy vehicle, driving without adequate insurance, driving under the influence of drugs or alcohol), and that percentage came from a study in my home town.

      Clearly cyclists are the pinnacle of law abiding citizens based on all my observations.

      So there's my observer bias, feel free to counter with some actual factual information this time.

    128. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by bitingduck · · Score: 1

      You've most likely been lucky.

      More than 25 years isn't luck, it's learning early on to compensate for inattention by others.

    129. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And by doing so, you are the cause of most erratic cyclist behavior. Cyclists have to veer and be aware of crazy drivers like yourself who don't care about laws or safety feeling perfectly safe themselves in their metal tank.

    130. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When there are 5 cars behind you, and even then when it's safe to do so. Which never happens cause none of the drivers bothers to wait behind. They just pass unsafely.

    131. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      There ain't a horse that can't be rode, and there ain't a cowboy that can't be throwed.

      I invite you to read David Hough. I first threw my leg over a bicycle frame about - damn - 55 years ago. Then a motorcycle frame about - ohhh - 48, 49 years ago. And, I'm still learning.

      A bit of interesting trivia, that applies to both motorcycle riders, and truck drivers. The most dangerous time in either of their careers is right around the two year mark. First year, they are lacking in self assurance, they are cautious, and they may not have any accidents at all. Right around two years experience is most dangerous, because they are gaining self assurance. And that self assurance is not yet justified. Many, many riders and drivers meet their fates right around that two year mark.

      Now, I don't want to jinx you or anything, but you sound a little bit overly self assured.

      Just think about it. I don't want to argue, just think about it.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    132. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Quirkz · · Score: 1

      That plus the sequence where they jam on the brakes, come to nearly a complete stop, and then decide to put their signal on to let you know that they intend to turn, rather than signaling first to let you know what all the other maneuvering is going to be about.

    133. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That was all just me. I kept circling back to blow by you again and again. Helmet-cam wussie!

    134. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by wyHunter · · Score: 1

      That isn't true. Pedestrians ARE supposed to stop at traffic lights, stop at stop signs, etc. Cyclists do not, for the most part, do this.

    135. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by nealric · · Score: 1

      I don't understand calls for the cyclist community to "self police." What exactly do you expect me as a cyclist to do if I see another cyclist breaking the law? Try to pull him over? Do you attempt to police drivers who break the law?

    136. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      laws have been broken since the day they were invented. laws are best practices codified for the sake of placing and enforcing blame. they don't actually fix anything, never have. (I'm not against them, but don't count on them either)

    137. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      I don't understand calls for the cyclist community to "self police." What exactly do you expect me as a cyclist to do if I see another cyclist breaking the law? Try to pull him over?

      Whatever you feel you need to do to let them know they're:
      - In the wrong
      - Endangering themselves directly
      - Making all cyclists look like assholes (by way of being the only cyclists most people see, since those who follow the rules tend to go unnoticed) - Endangering you indirectly, by making you all look like assholes (nobody cares if an asshole gets run over, after all)

      I'm not suggesting you do it for my sake, but for your own. If you don't mind sharing the road with a bunch of people who think you're an asshole, keep doing what you're doing; whether you are or not is immaterial when the guy who assumes you are because you're on a bike has already run you down. Dead is dead, is it not? I don't need you to do it for my sake, because I'm an attentive driver and I know that assholes make up something like 1% of the cyclist population. Essentially, I'm the polar opposite of most drivers in that regard. The more you know.

      Do you attempt to police drivers who break the law?

      No need, the police do that already. If they actually did the same for cyclists, there would be no need for cyclists to self-police.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    138. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by nine-times · · Score: 1

      That isn't true. Pedestrians ARE supposed to stop at traffic lights, stop at stop signs, etc.

      Don't be stupid. Pedestrians are supposed to follow pedestrian traffic signals, which may be different from those directing traffic. In some places, they even have separate bicycle traffic lights. Pedestrians are not required to stop at red lights that are directing cars. You can have a red light at an intersection where pedestrians can continue to walk without even entering the road. On a more basic level, pedestrians are encouraged to travel on sidewalks, while this is not legal for cars.

      Cyclists do not, for the most part, do this.

      Ok, please provide some statistics for which traffic laws cyclists disobey, and at what rates, so we can discuss further.

    139. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Not at all, I'm saying if I can give you a meter of room I will, except normally there is no way to do that, so I don't have a choice.

      Oh no choice. Right so you could not pass, but you chose to break the law.

      Like I said, double standards.

      However there is another solution to all of these problems, the cyclists can start obeying the speed limits

      On what planet do cyclists gnerally exceed the speed limit? Even at my peak, it was hard to even reach 30MPh on my normal bike dince that involved pedalling like a demon, never mind the effort involved.

      I don't care, if you can keep up with traffic and you don't cause me to slow down at all, then great, welcome to the road, other wise stay off it.

      If there's lots of cyclists, then thay are the traffic, by definition, and you're the one causing problems.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    140. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmm. I drive 50 mph on a road with a 50 mph speed limit in the United States and traffic stacks up behind me with people passing and everyone getting pissed off. (I have driven in Canada, and they speed almost as much, although they are in general much more polite and willing to yield).

      I actually come to a complete stop at a stop sign and the guy behind me wonders just what the f*** I am doing.

      I yield at a yield sign and the guy behind me is baffled at why I would do this.

      So I don;t drive like that anymore (that is obeying the letter of the law), it is too dangerous because the laws are not enforced.

      I would guess that 90% of the drivers in the US (the ones that are driving that day) violate a traffic law every time they drive (one of the big problems for robot vehicles, since they obey the rules and are therefore anomalous).

      Cyclists don't obey the law, but drivers don't obey the law either. I would guess cyclists obey the law a greater amount, simply because they usually don't have the capability to speed in most locations (pretty tough to do more than 25 mph on a consistent basis).

    141. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by nealric · · Score: 1

      So how do I let them know they are in the wrong? Yell after them as they speed away? They are just going to give me the finger and continue doing what they are doing. Also, there is very little traffic policing in my city. Unless you are outside the city limits in state highway patrol territory, the chances of getting pulled over for a traffic violation are incredibly small. Am I supposed to shout at every asshat driver I see too?

    142. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      I'm sure those drivers drive in places other than your city, they'll get pulled over somewhere. Bikes? Not so much.

      Figure something out, or don't, it's no skin off my back. It's your image at stake, here; I'm only providing general advice on how to correct the issue. The specifics are up to those actually affected.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    143. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Murdoch5 · · Score: 1

      In Toronto, out of 10 cyclists, 10 of them break laws. If you had a 100 cyclists you might have 1 who actually follows the law.

    144. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Murdoch5 · · Score: 1

      Actually the posted speed limit is the law, if you go slower then it, you're impeding traffic, yet how many cyclists ever get a ticket for that.

    145. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by bitingduck · · Score: 1

      The 25 years is since I started racing. I've been riding much longer than that. Racing, I crashed about once a year, and have avoided a *lot* of crashes around me. Non-racing (and non-winter riding) there's really no reason to hit the ground, and most situations where people get hit on bikes are foreseeable and avoidable, even when they're the motorist's fault (e.g. cop blowing through your intersection, right hooks, left hooks). I know what you're saying, but "accidents" don't happen out of nowhere, and your chances of being in one can be drastically reduced by how you ride.

    146. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by nealric · · Score: 1

      I've been pulled over twice in the last 10 years on a bicycle. I have not been pulled over in my cars in the same period (two very attention grabbing sports cars), and a drive a lot more miles than I bike. Sure, it's just anecdotes, but much of the assumption that there is no enforcement of bicycle violations is just that- an assumption.

    147. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by JimFive · · Score: 1

      Plan ahead. Signal your turn, then put your hand back on the handlebars and then turn, same for a stop.
      --
      JimFive

      --
      Please stop using the word theory when you mean hypothesis.
    148. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      I don't assume that there is no enforcement for bicycles, I know there is, I've seen one or two pulled over in 16 years of driving; I've also seen hundreds of cars pulled over in that time, on the very same streets. One might argue that there are hundreds of cars for every bicycle, and they would be correct; I would counter by arguing that disobeying traffic laws on a bicycle or motorcycle is much more dangerous than in a caged vehicle and, therefore, should be much more strictly enforced. Of course, then, you could argue that a caged vehicle not obeying traffic laws is much more dangerous to an uncaged vehicle than one which is obeying the law. Of course! And if you're an attentive and safe cyclist (motor- or bi-) who is obeying the law, you'll see the asshole in the cage and avoid him.

      Until enforcement reflects the (personal) danger people are putting themselves in, community-policing is the best we have as a society. If you attempt to correct someone's incorrect and unsafe behavior and they ignore you, give you the finger, tell you to fuck yourself, or otherwise don't listen, that's on them. They'll continue the behavior until the inevitable happens, then they'll quite likely be unable to continue as they'll be dead or disabled. You did your part, that's all you can do.

      There is bad blood on both sides here, and I'd like to attempt to clear the air. Most of us cagers aren't attentive enough, which is why you cyclists need to be; most of us don't see cyclists who obey the law, we only see the assholes who don't, and that makes us thing, when we see you, that you're an asshole. Of course, most cyclists aren't attentive enough either, despite knowing that most cagers don't care, "because it'll be the cager's fault, anyway." Yes, and you'll be dead anyway. I guess, if the cager doesn't care, neither should you, right?

      Personally, I'm an attentive driver, I see the majority of cyclists obeying the law, I know you're not all assholes, and I know most of us cagers are; at least where I live. Even if these facts absolve you of any responsibility in an accident that was purely the fault of a cager, they won't absolve you of injury, hospitalization, disability, or death.

      Should cagers pay better attention, in general? Yes! A fucking resounding HELL YES! It would make my life easier, also having to share the road with these assholes. But that's not the reality we live in, so you, on your bike, and I, in my cage, need to pay extra attention, for our own safety.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    149. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by hondo77 · · Score: 1

      ...here in California everyone is required to pull over to permit passing when possible if there are five or more vehicles being held up by them.

      You are mistaken. Please read the code and educate yourself.

      --
      I live ze unknown. I love ze unknown. I am ze unknown.
    150. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      I know the minimum separation distance is a meter and it's total BS.

      I knew from the kindergarden whine tone of your post that you would turn into chicken shit when confronted to the facts.

      For instance I can't give you a meter of room is that means I have to drive in the wrong lane, because that would violate other laws. I can't give you a meter or room when the entire lane isn't a meter wide. I can't give you a meter of room when you don't hold your fucking [very mature] distance steady and bike on the curb.

      If you can't give a meter then you must follow behind until you can find the space to safely pass. That is what the law says. Laws you seemed to care so much about when they were bottle feeding your baby tantrum and now you try to dismiss so quickly when they work against you.

      And by the way, I'm a driver not a cyclist. I just simply have no respect for 2000 pound iron driving cowards complaining about 20 pound cycling vehicles.

      As an American, or a Torontonian, it is my right to haul a 4000 pound 12 X 6 foot chunk of metal around with me everywhere I got, to emphasize my superiority from those who merely have a skinny little 20 lb bike; and as such, it makes no sense for me to refrain from killing them.

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
    151. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      You have a choice, which is not passing.

      I don't know it works in Toronto, but here in California everyone is required to pull over to permit passing when possible if there are five or more vehicles being held up by them. Well, many a time I've been a part of a chain of more than five vehicles being held up by some douche taking up a lane in the city, or practicing his downhill on the mountain roads, and not doing very well. In either case, the cyclist is required to simply pull over and permit the vehicles to pass, just like any other user of the road. Guess how often that happens?

      I'm also fuck-tired of cyclists who feel like they should ride right on the line because there's some sharp things over on the right hand side of their lane. Get better tires. That's what we have to do. It's not legal for us to drive over a cyclist to avoid a larger road hazard, like some jerkoff in our lane coming the other way for example. If you want everyone to follow the same standard, suck it up and plan for the roads you have, not the roads you want, and leave the race tires at home.

      Right... just like those guys in the left lane all move over to allow vehicles to pass on the highway, or the lumbering semi-trailers making delivery in the city pull over to let the vast lines of cars behind them get by....
      but it's the bikes, dammit! the bikes, I tell you!

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
    152. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      There was a study done one this, mostly pointing out that there was a lot of confirmation bias in play - that people who were incensed at bicyclists not obeying traffic laws generally did not noticed automobile drivers committing similar acts. (This is, of course, a general observation, I can't say jack about you in particular.)

      I think there are a lot of factors here - some are cultural, where people think of bicyclists and interlopers and inappropriate in their use of space, and bicyclists regard automobiles as both physical and idealistic threats. But some of them are design - I've spent most of my time commuting in areas with very low commuter rates (and often high speeds - I am extremely polite and painfully aware of my lack of exoskeleton thank you*.) Some urban designs really don't encourage bicycles and cars to play well together.

      I'm currently living in a midwestern city where the streets are generally not in the best repair but the shoulders are especially dire. Now, really, I'd prefer to ride on the shoulder as much as possible, and be out of everyone's way, but often the state of the shoulder makes that too dangerous. For my commute, and for places I go frequently, I've found routes that don't have this problem, but it's not a great situation (even though local drivers for the most part are considerate if sometimes clueless - I don't need a full carwidth's distance between me and a car, nice thought, not really helping traffic here.)

      * In my Microsoft days, pretty every week at least one person would post to the internal discussion board about having joined the "roadkill club", which is to say having sustained a major injury while commuting.

      person in car is approximately equivalent to person in comments column on internet, i.e. feeling of anonymity removfes inhibitions against appearing to be an asshole, and the inner character comes out.

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
    153. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      I'm fully convinced most motorists don't know about blinkers or if they do they think it means "I'm coming over to your lane now get the fuck out of my way." As for headlights I recently drove in a blinding rain where I could barely see 25 feet in front of my car. I was amazed at how many shapes in the grey wall appeared suddenly and were cars flashing by. The grey and silver cars are particularly hard to spot. It's gotten to the point now I don't drive in the rain at all if I can help it since about 15 percent of the ignorant fuckers haven't figured out how to turn their lights on in a driving rain. Here's a hint, if you have to turn your wipers on then turn the damn lights on too! They should hard wire the headlights to the wipers so they come on automatically.

      As far as I can tell, the idea behind blinkers is that if you're so oblivious or drunk or texting or whatever that you find yourself in the middle of a lane change or turn unexpectedly, you turn the blinker on at that point in hopes that any cop watching will think you meant to do that.

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
    154. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      Ummm, excuse me, but I fucking do obey the law.

      And nobody sees you doing it. The reason everyone who sees you riding your bike thinks you're an asshole is because the only cyclists who disturb traffic enough to actually be noticed are assholes; literally the only cyclists most people ever actually notice (not see, but actually realize they are seeing) are assholes. Cyclists like yourself who, assuming you're being honest with us, obey traffic laws and don't disrupt the flow of traffic, largely go unnoticed. The end result is that you all look like assholes, even though the majority of you are not. If cops would start enforcing traffic laws equally, the problem would largely solve itself; short of that, though, the cyclist community is going to have to start self-policing before things improve.

      yes and no; somehow, the assholes get noticed more than the riders who aren't.
      but not getting noticed is how bike riders get killed; the idea is to get noticed, without being an asshole.
      so why don't people notice those guys?

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
    155. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      Lights.




      Rather, lack thereof.

      Even our massive noisy cages are covered in reflectors that can be see in daylight and now come with mandatory daytime-running lights.

      Well, lights and size. And running signs; most people who t-bone a car that blew through a stop sign without stopping say they didn't see the car failing to stop (even if they did see the car), which makes sense since most of the cars I see roll signs do slow down (as though they're going to stop) before rolling on through; the same is probably true for bikes.

      On a bike, you are at a disadvantage. A natural disadvantage, not one caused by cagers (though inattentive cagers do compound the problem). Act like it.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    156. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      Lights. Rather, lack thereof. Even our massive noisy cages are covered in reflectors that can be see in daylight and now come with mandatory daytime-running lights. Well, lights and size. And running signs; most people who t-bone a car that blew through a stop sign without stopping say they didn't see the car failing to stop (even if they did see the car), which makes sense since most of the cars I see roll signs do slow down (as though they're going to stop) before rolling on through; the same is probably true for bikes. On a bike, you are at a disadvantage. A natural disadvantage, not one caused by cagers (though inattentive cagers do compound the problem). Act like it.

      You bet. At night, I'm festooned like a Christmas tree. More than once (in my car) at night I've barely missed a bike only because of the pedal reflector.

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
    157. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      At least when I start from a dead stop on a bike, I'm wobbly for a short time. There's advantages in not being wobbly in an intersection with cars passing through close to me. I'm in favor of allowing cyclists to treat stop signs and red lights like yield signs. (There will of course be cyclists who think that a "yield" sign means they should go freely, and everybody should yield to them, but there's idiots all over the roadways.)

      The reason why I'm required to stop at a stop sign, when driving, is that I'm normally going far too fast, and with too limited visibility, to keep an eye in all directions, and the in-skull tactical display doesn't track fast enough to go through an intersection with a stop sign fast enough. A bicyclist is moving slower in the first place, and has much better visibility. (A bicyclist who wants to live should have a good in-skull tac display or equivalent.)

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    158. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      In some jurisdictions, cyclists are required to make road speed or pull over under some circumstances. In some, they're required to stay as close to the right as is practical, in which case they're easier to pass with a good margin (I give them more than a meter if I can). We're posting from all sorts of areas with differing laws and markings.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    159. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      I notice bicyclists violating traffic laws more because they scare me. I'd very much like to get through life without directly killing or seriously injuring another person. I'm rarely in danger of doing that to a driver (although there was that one that pulled out in front of me so my right fender had a clear shot to the driver without going through an air bag that one time), but I keep a closer eye on cyclists, and their dangerous infractions have more of an emotional impact.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    160. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by tylikcat · · Score: 1

      You win the most apt, if most depressing, metaphor award.

    161. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I dunno, but in the mean time, just hit them with your cycle, and vice versa. Sound good?

    162. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if the road surface is bad it can be very dangerous to signal lane changes - sometimes u need both hands on ur bike - but look behind and check if all clear at least.

    163. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by SteveSgt · · Score: 1

      Where and when I commute, the roads are rarely so empty that another vehicle would not be affected by a lane change. All of the lane changes I counted were either to pass me, or there were other cars on the road within 5-8 car lengths of the lane changer.

    164. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not exactly possible to do hand signals while stopping on a bike...

    165. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by adhdengineer · · Score: 1

      surely it's the same as cars tho. you should be signalling before the maneuver anyway, so you should have time to replace you hands on the bike before you start to turn/stop.

    166. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      That's not the case in the UK. The posted speed limit is the maximum alowed speed. If you exceed it you're breaking the law. Now, if there's a minimum speed limit sign (see page 2) [ https://www.gov.uk/government/... ] you have a point, but I think I've seen one of those once ever.

      Now, about the obstruction thing, I frankly do not believe you unless you quote chapter and verse of the law. There have always been vehicles of mixed speed on the road: for example horses were in use until well aftre cars were introduced.

      Now the only places you might have a point are on multiple lane roads. I've never seen a cyclist tofdling along at 10mph in the fast lane unless it's an urban road and a turn is being made.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    167. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      ...here in California everyone is required to pull over to permit passing when possible if there are five or more vehicles being held up by them.

      You are mistaken. Please read the code and educate yourself.

      Holy fucking shit, it says exactly what I said, and you're claiming that I am mistaken? You need to work hard on your reading comprehension, because you are not even up to an elementary school level. Literally. It says right there that if you are holding up five other vehicles by not moving with the flow of traffic, "wherever sufficient area for a safe turnout exists", regardless of the speed limit. If you are holding five or more people up by traveling at less than the average speed, and you don't pull over at the earliest safe opportunity (marked or not) you're breaking the law.

      Please learn to read. And think. Do not post again until.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    168. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I'm also in California and ride in the mountains at least one and often two days every weekend. I also drive in the mountains. Do you know how often I see traffic bunched up behind a bicycle (up or down)? Almost never. Do you know how often I see it bunched up behind a slow car?

      Before you get all sanctimonious, that "slow car" is still moving two to three times as fast as a bicycle. At least it is arguably moving with the flow of traffic which the roadway was designed to carry, unlike cyclists.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    169. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Where and when I commute, the roads are rarely so empty that another vehicle would not be affected by a lane change. All of the lane changes I counted were either to pass me, or there were other cars on the road within 5-8 car lengths of the lane changer.

      You didn't bother to count the lane changes which didn't affect anyone, so your statistics are meaningless. As a cyclist, you also distract drivers (who are now having to deal with a slow obstacle that is more likely than other vehicles to make a sudden turn, or for the rider to fall into traffic and stop moving) and perturb traffic patterns yourself, especially if you are protruding into the lane.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    170. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you suggesting God should start pulling people over?

    171. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Stuarticus · · Score: 1

      Are you counting speed limits? Whenever I'm cycling in 20 mph zone I get passed at crazy speeds.

      --
      If you think someone isn't free to have a different definition of "freedom" you may be a tyrant.
    172. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Stuarticus · · Score: 1

      Most of the posted speed Limits are that - upper bounds on speed. It's rare to see a minimum speed posted. So I'm afraid you're just showing your ignorance.

      --
      If you think someone isn't free to have a different definition of "freedom" you may be a tyrant.
    173. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      We do expect pedestrians to obey intersection signs and rules though. That is one thing that a lot of cyclists ignore. And at a four way stop, it can get really confusing if 4 cars pull up, and it is car 1's turn to take a left, but a cyclist across the intersection from him goes forward out of turn, blocking car 1's ability to take a left. So then car 2 decides to go because he sees that car 1 cannot, etc...

      Cyclists should really be queued up behind the cars in an intersection, not riding up alongside them. I can't see any way around situations like this unless bikes have more dedicated roads (no cars).

    174. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by tylikcat · · Score: 1

      Hm. I have been hit twice, but both were fairly early in my career of being a serious commuter (and one involved a narrow shoulder with an abrupt drop off and a really difficult driver - I might have a better radar now for difficult drivers, but damn he was an asshole.) I've fallen rather more recently... but I'm a four season commuter, in Cleveland, and I will at times push my luck in the snow on what my carbide studded tires can take. It's, ah, kind of fun, when I'm in the mood.

      Of course I do that in part because as long as I'm in circumstances I'm comfortable in (and if I'm not, mostly I grab a shuttle), I'm just not that afraid of falling. I mean, falling in the way of cars would be awful, but all the years of martial arts training has meant that usually at worst I get a bruise or two on my ankles if I didn't get them all the way clear of the frame.

      (p.s. Not that this is probably news, but having moved here from the west coast, bar mitts are amazing. OMG.)

    175. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by nine-times · · Score: 1

      Cyclists should really be queued up behind the cars in an intersection, not riding up alongside them.

      That sounds like a terrible idea to me. Bicycles do not accelerate quickly, so putting a fully stopped bike in front of a car seems bad for the driver. Worse for the cyclist, now you have a frustrated driver behind you. Drivers are reckless and stupid and can't be trusted to begin with. Frustrate them, and it's like playing with a loaded weapon.

      Plus, it doesn't make sense. If you're in a situation where bicycles are riding alongside cars, with the bikes not taking up a lane and cars being allowed to pass on the left, why should the cyclists suddenly have to take up a whole lane when you come to a stop? The two worst times for bicycles to be treated as car-traffic are "in fast-moving traffic" and "after coming to a full stop".

    176. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Murdoch5 · · Score: 1

      Yes because as a cyclist, you're not keeping with the speed limit, so almost every cyclist is breaking that law.

    177. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Murdoch5 · · Score: 1

      That's not true in Ontario, you can get a charge for impeding traffic, by going to far under the speed limit.

    178. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Stuarticus · · Score: 1

      Those two statements are not mutually exclusive. I thought people on this site were supposed to understand basic logic.

      --
      If you think someone isn't free to have a different definition of "freedom" you may be a tyrant.
    179. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Murdoch5 · · Score: 1

      Most of the posted speed Limits are that - upper bounds on speed. It's rare to see a minimum speed posted. So I'm afraid you're just showing your ignorance.

      That's not true in Ontario.

      That's was pretty clear, logical and exclusive.

    180. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      Not at all, I'm saying if I can give you a meter of room I will, except normally there is no way to do that, so I don't have a choice.

      Then you DON'T FUCKING PASS THE CYCLIST AT ALL!

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    181. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by Murdoch5 · · Score: 1

      Well I'm currently waiting on Toronto City Council, John Tory and Wynne to get back to me on why it's an insane bilaw, so until then, you better give me room.

    182. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      I talked to some friends who bicycle in Portland (super bike friendly town) and they all agree that the correct and legal thing to do, is when you approach an intersection that you need to turn left or right at, you need to merge back into traffic as you approach the stop sign or signal. Obviously this is not perfect, and only works when traffic is slowing down coming to a red light intersection or 4 way stop. If you need to take a left, if the light is green and traffic is moving fast, you basically have to stop and wait in the bike lane until there is an opportunity to merge left.

      If your town is doing the same thing as mine, this is evident in newer bike lanes paint jobs. The white bike lane will be on the right of the car lane. But right in front of where a car is supposed to stop, the bike lane paint merges left in front of the first stopped car, and that paint is green. So basically at a red light, all the bikes catch up to the cars by riding along side them in the bike lane. Then all the bikes queue up in front of all the cars in that green painted waiting area. Then when the light turns green, all the bikes merge right back into the bike lane as traffic starts up.

      Very few drives of bikes or cars seem to know the real rules:(

    183. Re:Cyclists DON'T obey the law! by nine-times · · Score: 1

      I talked to some friends who bicycle in Portland (super bike friendly town)

      I think part of the problem is, you're expecting consistent rules when dealing with inconsistent places. The rules you think are appropriate in a "super bike friendly town" may not work in a "not so bike friendly town". The reality is that, if you don't want to be killed, you can't rely on rules, and you can't expect drivers to abide by rules. Sometimes if I want to make a left turn, I have to pull up into the crosswalk, wait for a red light, ride across with the pedestrian traffic, and then continue on.

      Is that legal according to "the real rules"? I don't know. I don't much care. My priority is to get from point A to point B without endangering myself or others.

  6. first guess by rmdingler · · Score: 1
    --
    Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.

    Ernest Hemingway

  7. Solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    At the end of the day, reducing cycling accidents may boil down to something simple: Making sure that bikers know the rules of the road — and that drivers know how to deal with bikers.

    Or install separate bike lanes separated by metal posts. Drivers don't want to damage their expensive cars.

    1. Re:Solution by ls671 · · Score: 1

      Exactly what we have here. Yet, 2 bikers went on a head to head collision and one died. So we would need 2 separated bike lanes, one for each direction. separated by a fence. Let's face it, nowadays people can't concentrate on something for more than 10 seconds, how can you expect them to be able to drive a bike.

      I am looking at you, smartphones, sms, tweeter, facebook.

      These days, almost nobody has enough concentration to fully read a man page or an email more than 10 lines long.

      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    2. Re:Solution by ColdWetDog · · Score: 5, Funny

      I know! I know! We need self driving bicycles!

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    3. Re:Solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, the Dutch solution then: 2 bike lanes on either side of the road. As a bonus, neither lane is wide enough for cars so they keep out. Downside: streetside parking is a challenge. A parking space right next to a bike lane is problematic; idiots will open their door without checking their mirrors for bikes. Still, these tend to be nonlethal accidents and painful enough for the idiots who step out into the bike lane.

    4. Re:Solution by ls671 · · Score: 1

      So, the Dutch solution then: 2 bike lanes on either side of the road

      Hmmm...

      Do you mean:
      So, the Dutch solution then: 2 bike lanes, one on each side of the road.

      I am just curious about that Dutch solution...

      Otherwise, with "either", I believe that's what they have in most places allowing head to head collision between cyclist.

      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    5. Re:Solution by funwithBSD · · Score: 1

      You don't want two lanes of cyclists next to each other.
      Unexpectedly, an oncoming cyclist the the greatest threat to another cyclist for injury or death.

      --
      Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
    6. Re:Solution by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

      We have those, they are called sidewalks. The only reasonable place to bike.

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    7. Re:Solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I often cycle in the Netherlands and there are many roads with 2 bike lanes on either side of the road. That is two bike lanes going from east to west and two bike lanes going from west to east (or north-south if you want). The idea is that not every cyclist is as fast as the other one. There are many mopeds that drive at 30 km/h, there are the many e-bikes that drive at 25 km/h and the many older cyclist that drive at 10-15 km/h. In 2016 the newest e-bikes that can drive at 45 km/h will be allowed on the bike lanes (but will require a drivers license and a number plate), so you will see 45 km/h and 15 km/h vehicles on the same lanes. There are even prototypes that can drive at 75 km/h, with a 1000 watt electric engine, but those will probably never be allowed on the streets. That's why 2 bike lanes in the same direction is no longer a luxury.
       
        Two bike lanes is just like four road lanes. Fast traffic can pass slow traffic.

    8. Re:Solution by ls671 · · Score: 1

      Well, what you describing is 2 bike lanes on each side of the road !

      Not 2 bike lanes on either side of the road.

      Agreed, using "either side" might be common in English but "each side" makes it less ambiguous IMHO.

      either
      conjunction adverb

      1) used before the first of two (or occasionally more) alternatives that are being specified (the other being introduced by “or”).
      2) used to indicate a similarity or link with a statement just made.

      --
      Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
    9. Re:Solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If it's self-driving, might as well make it a unicycle.

    10. Re:Solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We have self-driving bicycles. We've had them for a few thousand years. They're called horses.

    11. Re:Solution by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      I know! I know! We need self driving bicycles!

      No. What we need is 3D-printed solar bicycle lanes.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
  8. Biking while intoxicated by MisterSquid · · Score: 2

    As a cyclist between the ages of 35 and 54, these statistics directly concern me. That said, I'm a very experienced and highly-capable (not bragging) cyclist.

    The is anecdata, I know, but a handful of people I know (~5) who took up biking and then stopped because of a serious accident have done so because they had an accident while biking after having drinks. I know biking wine tasting in Napa is also a thing.

    In any case, my point is out-loud wondering what percentage of these accidents can be accounted for by drunken cyclists and/or cyclists with impaired/lowered motor skills.

    Please, everyone, ride and drive safely and soberly. Commuting injuries and mortalities are just not worth it.

    --
    blog
    1. Re:Biking while intoxicated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More anecdata, but I was not impaired in the least until I flipped over the hood of that car. I'd ridden that route a hundred times.

      Then, I had to evade questions about what happened in order for insurance to cover my doctor visits. Their car insurance didn't want to pay for a no-fault accident, and medical insurance wouldn't touch anything that involved a vehicle. If this happens to other people, these numbers could even be underreported.

      Our healthcare system is fucked up.

    2. Re:Biking while intoxicated by godrik · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Is there really a story here? It seems that these numbers are normalized to a random population and not to the cyclist population. According to http://bikeleague.org/commutin... the number of cyclist rose sharply in that period as well.

      As far as I can tell, there are more cyclist injuries mostly because there are more cyclist. Per mile accident rates are more meaningful than an absolute out of context number.

      That being said, I chose not to bike to work because the drivers where I live (Charlotte,NC) are complete nuts and there are no bike path I can take.

    3. Re:Biking while intoxicated by Kaenneth · · Score: 1

      When you see someone smoking while biking, I guarantee they lost their driving license from DUI.

    4. Re:Biking while intoxicated by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I know biking wine tasting in Napa is also a thing.

      The bicycle lanes in Napa along the Silverado Trail, where most of the cycling-wine-tasting occurs, are wider than the lanes for the vehicles. A far larger problem is that driving while wine tasting in Napa is also a thing. The place where cyclists are annoying in the Napa area is on the back roads, where they think they're training for the fucking Tour de France on their own private race tracks. They're slow, they don't care, and fuck you. Where there even is a bicycle lane, they certainly won't use it, because there might be sharp things over there which will annihilate their precious butter-soft racing tires.

      There are tours which ferry cyclists around the area in such a way that they are generally riding against traffic, the practice is not inherently harmful. There's just a lot of cocks out there who think that because they're doing less environmental damage, they should be able to take the roads over from the cars.

      Anyway, TL;DR: drunkenness really ain't a big cause of cycling accidents, at least around the place you'd suspect it to be. It's more the cycling asshats.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re:Biking while intoxicated by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      Is there really a story here? It seems that these numbers are normalized to a random population and not to the cyclist population. According to http://bikeleague.org/commutin... the number of cyclist rose sharply in that period as well.

      As far as I can tell, there are more cyclist injuries mostly because there are more cyclist. Per mile accident rates are more meaningful than an absolute out of context number.

      That being said, I chose not to bike to work because the drivers where I live (Charlotte,NC) are complete nuts and there are no bike path I can take.

      the baseline number is also suspect; i venture that the count of bike accidents for ages 1-16 includes a lot which should really be counted as "playing in road"

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
    6. Re:Biking while intoxicated by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Na. I smoke while biking and have a valid driver's license. Smokers will have a smoke whenever they can get away with it, now that it is banned just about everywhere. Especially true when outdoors where most biking takes place.

    7. Re:Biking while intoxicated by DarthVain · · Score: 1

      In conjunction with the fact that there are more cyclists, hence more cyclist accidents, is likely the concentration, which would be in urban centres, with ever increasing traffic and congestion probably hasn't helped matters any either.

      It is more less an urban activity, so a much larger percentage of those "new" cyclists will all be competing for turf within a small urban environment.

  9. Because Americans drive like assholes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    and think that they own the road they drive on, and that said road is specifically for cars, and not for transportation.

    1. Re:Because Americans drive like assholes by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      Actually, Americans (assholes or not) do own the roads they drive on.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    2. Re:Because Americans drive like assholes by DudeTheMath · · Score: 1

      The first paved roads in the U.S. were paved at the demand of cyclists.

      --
      You save only 59 seconds over 8 miles by going 75 instead of 65. Do you really have to pass that guy? Do the Math!
  10. Obligatory "Monkey Dust" Video by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "We Are The Cyclists" 2 minutes long

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBFFrsvgu1Y

  11. Smartphones by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The number of drivers who are using smartphones has had a huge increase in the just the last couple years and I would be surprised if there wasn't a relation to car vs bike accdients.

  12. A real solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How about we build separate infrastructure for bikes? Widen roads, add barriers, signals, the works. And while you're at it, how about adding more mass transit too?

    USA: The only first world country with a third world transportation system.

  13. You know what's coming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    OK, let's get this out of the way first:

    We're going to hear a lot of "Bikers don't follow the rules! I once heard a friend of a friend who's grandma's hairdresser's second cousin once saw someone not stop at a stop sign on a bike, so I know it's true". So if you are a driver and want to claim bikers break road rules consider the following:

    1) Have you ever broken a speed limit? Speeding contributes to accidents in far higher proportion than anything else. (Google is your friend). If you've ever exceeded the limit, you're a damned hypocrite if you complain about bikers breaking the rules.

    2) Why do other countries like Denmark, The Netherlands etc not have these problems, even despite not wearing helmets, cycling like crazy people etc?

    3) The vast, vast majority (that big G again for those who want the stats) of bike deaths are directly and entirely attributed to driver error, not cyclist error.

    I know you're going to be upset by this, but I'm sick and tired of having to point out the same crap every time there's a bike story.

    1. Re:You know what's coming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And add to it that the penalties are small for hitting and killing a cyclist.

      Two summers ago, I had an acquaintance that was biking home from work. Country road -- could see for miles. He was wearing a reflective vest, lights, and was on the shoulder of the road. The driver hit and killed him and claimed that her cell phone rang and she became distracted. She was sentenced to 6 months in jail, to be served on weekends so not to disturb her lifestyle. Her fine was only $500.

      I was hit last summer, riding home from work. I only live 6 miles from work, and 4 of those miles are via a multiuse path that traverses the city. I was hit a 1/4 mile from my home, but a driver who was suspected of driving drunk. He hit me by running a stop "sign" (flashing red light). I had done a complete stop, signaled, and started going through the intersection -- he didn't even stop. The cops wrote him a ticket (after spending three days looking for him), and wrote him a "improper lane use" ticket, because they didn't catch him, and they felt they couldn't use my helmet cam footage. He paid a $150 fine and got one point on his license. I was in the hospital for 3 weeks, had two surgeries and 9 months of physical therapy. I was able to sue him for $5,000, but that's about it. Had he hit another car the penalty would have been stronger.

    2. Re:You know what's coming by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Have you ever broken a speed limit? Speeding contributes to accidents in far higher proportion than anything else. (Google is your friend). If you've ever exceeded the limit, you're a damned hypocrite if you complain about bikers breaking the rules.

      Breaking the speed limit by 5 MPH results in a fairly small increase in the odds of an accident being fatal. Speeding across an intersection on a bicycle without stopping greatly increases the risk of a fatal accident, from zero to 100% if you get hit. And it is fatal accidents we're talking about here. The statistical difference in risk makes that comparison utter crap. Your argument is like calling someone a hypocrite for complaining about the guy doing 120 MPH in a 25 MPH zone simply because that person is known for going two or three MPH over the limit.

      2) Why do other countries like Denmark, The Netherlands etc not have these problems, even despite not wearing helmets, cycling like crazy people etc?

      I'm guessing their cyclists are more careful, they have fewer drunk drivers and drunk cyclists, they have more bike lanes, and fewer people ride bicycles on major streets there.

      American roads have a tendency to be a lot more uneven than roads in Europe, at least from what I've seen. In Europe, most of the roads I saw were almost either highways (no bicycles allowed) or they were two-lane city streets. Here in the U.S., we seem to have a much larger percentage of four-, six-, and eight-lane major city streets, often with no smaller parallel streets that are suitable for bicycles (because they all get cut by highways every two or three miles). The largest percentage of bicycle fatalities happens on those large urban streets.

      I blame, at least in part, the "traffic calming" nonsense that has become the norm in lots of cities, where it is impossible to go anywhere on back streets without eventually getting to a point where you're forced out onto one of those major arteries by side streets that don't connect. I also blame the haphazard way in which American highways are allowed to carve a slice right through a city, rather than being elevated or built underground as is common in much of Europe, allowing bicycles to pass over or under it on every existing cross street.

      But the biggest problem, IMO, is the steady increase in average commute times. This leads to drivers being more and more fatigued by the time they get off the highway at the end of the day, and surprise, surprise, that's when most of the fatalities happen. We have an epidemic of long commutes in California, brought on in no small part by prop 13 creating a tax disincentive for selling your home and moving closer to your job. This, coupled with poor regional land use planning, has created a situation where about 80% of the roughly 120,000 people living in the greater Morgan Hill/Gilroy/Hollister area commute an hour or more to work in the Silicon Valley because there are almost no tech companies with offices in that area. Same goes for a much smaller (but still sizable) percentage of the greater Santa Cruz area, plus everything from the East Bay all the way up to greater Sacramento.

      3) The vast, vast majority (that big G again for those who want the stats) of bike deaths are directly and entirely attributed to driver error, not cyclist error.

      That's technically correct—the best kind of correct. However, according to New York's statistics:

      • 20% of cyclist fatalities are directly attributable to the cyclist having a BAC over the legal limit. These are likely 100% avoidable by the cyclist not getting on a bicycle while intoxicated.
      • 40% involve rear-end collisions when the cyclist stopped without getting off the road. These are also likely 100% avoidable by cyclists being consistent about pulling to the side of the road when stopping—particularly if a traffic light is about to turn red.

      When you add

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    3. Re:You know what's coming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Speeding contributes to accidents in far higher proportion than anything else

      That is often claimed, but it is not actually true. Excessive speed is the major cause of less than 5% of accidents. Not respecting priority rules, bad visibility, driving under the influence of alcohol and doing other things while driving are far more common causes.

    4. Re:You know what's coming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1/3 of drivers speed by over 10 MPH:

        http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/...

      Risk of death DOUBLES for that increase between 30-40 MPH, and goes up by a factor of 9 from 20-30 MPH:

      http://humantransport.org/side...

      It's not just technically correct, it's actually correct. You're basically blaming murder victims for getting murdered here - "shouldn't be out at night" type of bullshit. No. It's the driver's fault almost all the time and it's the attitudes of drivers that must be changed.

    5. Re:You know what's coming by emj · · Score: 1

      Have you ever broken a speed limit? Speeding contributes to accidents in far higher proportion than anything else. (Google is your friend). If you've ever exceeded the limit, you're a damned hypocrite if you complain about bikers breaking the rules.

      Breaking the speed limit by 5 MPH results in a fairly small increase in the odds of an accident being fatal. Speeding across an intersection on a bicycle without stopping greatly increases the risk of a fatal accident, from zero to 100% if you get hit.

      Actually; at 30 km/h almost no accident is fatal, and at 50 km/h almost all of them are. Doing 5 mph (8 km/h) over a 24 mph (30 km/h) speedlimit will lead to a lot more more deaths statistically. Also getting hit by a car while speeding across and intersection is not a common way to have an accident as a cyclists, fatal accidents being even less common.

      Traffic calming can mean so much so it's hard talking about it, there are as many bad examples as good, but a good thing is to lower the speed of cars because people survive low speed crashes pedestrians as cyclists.

    6. Re:You know what's coming by DudeTheMath · · Score: 1

      I'm on your side, but I'll argue with your third point, at least as far as police statistics are concerned, and for one crucial reason: They only get the driver's side of the story. People will hit "that big G" and get biased information and claim it's factual.

      --
      You save only 59 seconds over 8 miles by going 75 instead of 65. Do you really have to pass that guy? Do the Math!
    7. Re:You know what's coming by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      1/3 of drivers speed by over 10 MPH

      That's in large part because speed limits are so frequently set 10 MPH or more below the prevailing speed of traffic on the roads. The correct question is what percentage of people travel faster than the maximum safe speed for the roads. That number is much, much less than a third.

      The purpose of speed limits is not to minimize the risk to cyclists. If that were the case, all road speed limits would be set at 15 MPH and nobody would get anywhere. The purpose of speed limits is to mitigate the risk of cars pulling out in front of you, based on the number of driveway entrances, the number of them that are blind, etc. And occasionally, speed limits are designed to reduce the risk of death if a kid runs out in front of you near a school, where there is likely to be a high concentration of young children.

      Note that most deaths by bicycles are on large urban arteries, which you would typically expect to have speed limits of at least 40 MPH. At that rate, a collision has a 50% fatality rate, give or take. There's only one good way to prevent those accidents: get the bicycles off of those major arteries and onto secondary streets where they won't be consistently traveling at a fraction of the prevailing speed of the road. The problem is not the drivers. The problem is that those bicycles shouldn't have been on those roads. They simply aren't capable of achieving the speed necessary to not pose a serious safety risk when used on those larger streets.

      It's not just technically correct, it's actually correct. You're basically blaming murder victims for getting murdered here - "shouldn't be out at night" type of bullshit. No. It's the driver's fault almost all the time and it's the attitudes of drivers that must be changed.

      Blame is too strong a word, as that implies primary fault. I'm saying that they bear some responsibility. If I break into your house and steal something, your insurance pays for it. If you leave your house unlocked and I walk in and steal something, your insurance probably doesn't. It is the burglar's fault primarily in either case, but in the second situation, you failed to take the expected basic precautions required to ensure the safety of your property, and as such, the insurance company is within its rights to deny the claim because of contributory negligence on your part.

      From what I've seen, drivers' attitudes have absolutely nothing to do with the problem. Drivers are almost invariably courteous around bicycles when they see them in time. However, the reality is that driving can be enormously complex, and it is very easy to make mistakes, whether through fatigue, distraction, or simply having too many pieces of information flying at you all at once.

      The only people whose attitudes can change in a way that would have a meaningful effect on bicycling safety are the cyclists themselves. Cyclists must consistently avoid getting too close to cars, avoid taking unnecessary risks, always wear attire that makes them easily visible, avoid making sudden stops that can get them rear-ended by cars that are trying to get through traffic lights, and generally assume that nobody else on the road can see them until proven otherwise. Ride defensively. If everyone did this, we would have a lot fewer cycling deaths.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    8. Re:You know what's coming by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Actually; at 30 km/h almost no accident is fatal, and at 50 km/h almost all of them are. Doing 5 mph (8 km/h) over a 24 mph (30 km/h) speedlimit will lead to a lot more more deaths statistically. Also getting hit by a car while speeding across and intersection is not a common way to have an accident as a cyclists, fatal accidents being even less common.

      First, I should point out that when I said that 5 MPH was unlikely to increase the risk of death in an accident, I was talking about for the driver of the car, not for a cyclist hit by the car. I was comparing the increased risk to a car's driver from driving in an unsafe manner against the increased risk to a cyclist from riding in an unsafe manner. I guess that wasn't quite as clear as I'd intended it to be. :-)

      Second, you're presumably basing your assumptions on speeds of roads in Europe, where minor streets often have much lower limits than here in the 'States. With the exception of school zones, which are typically 15 MPH (~24 km/h), very few American roads are posted lower than 25 MPH (~40 km/h), even in residential areas. So even on the safest American roads, you're halfway from your never fatal speed to your usually fatal speed.

      Outside of residential neighborhood streets (and sometimes even on residential streets), the vast majority of roads are posted at either 30 or 35 MPH (48 or 56 km/h), which means they're solidly at the "usually fatal" end of your scale.

      So basically, speeding by 5 MPH on most streets will make little difference to cyclist fatality rates because almost all wrecks at full speed will be fatal either way. Either the driver sees the bicycle and successfully stops (or nearly stops) or doesn't. In the first case, the cyclist lives. In the second case, the cyclist doesn't. Short of getting the meatbags out from behind the wheel, the only thing that will significantly improve cyclist safety is cyclists avoiding roads with high speed limits and being extremely cautious in their riding behavior.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    9. Re:You know what's coming by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      From what I've seen, drivers' attitudes have absolutely nothing to do with the problem. Drivers are almost invariably courteous around bicycles when they see them in time. However, the reality is that driving can be enormously complex, and it is very easy to make mistakes, whether through fatigue, distraction, or simply having too many pieces of information flying at you all at once.

      Nope nope nope nope and this also belies a further problem. I can remember plenty of incidents clearly with drivers just being assholes.

      Case 1: I was cycling along in the middle of the lane, making it impossible for cars to pass. Heavy traffic, so keeping up with traffic was trivial (must have been 10-15 mph). Driver behind pulled over because he wanted a fight because he wanted to be ahead of me.

      Case2: Same road, opposite direction, heavy traffic. Again, crusin' in the middle of the lane keeping up with traffic, just like a car. Guy behind starts hooting and yelling. Didn't notice a police car behind him. One of the sweetest moments of my cycling life.

      Case 3: Stopped in the middle of the lane at a red traffic light. Not only that but in a region explicitly marked for cyclists only. Bus pulls up behing and starts honking because I'm in the way. Note: light is still red. Light turns green, and I take off and go in the cycle lane when it starts. Bus pulls alongside and opens door we me and the driver can loudly trade observations on the weather. Note turning one's head sideways and yelling isn't conducive to fast cycling, so I had to slow down a bit. The driver matched my speed so that we could continue our conversation.

      All good fun.

      But the real problem is that bit about "when they see them in time",

      I tend to cycle right in the middle of the lane even when I can't keep up with traffic, if there's no room to pass. Because otherwise I risk drivers not seeing me in time or trying to pas with insufficient room giving me a high chance of being smeared across the pavement. Sitting in the middle of the lane pretty much guarantees that you'll be seen.

      However, you have to put up with a huge amount of aggression.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
  14. I took up biking... by Nova+Express · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...because I hated running and it hurt my knees. Which is much the same reason George W. Bush took it up.

    It's also easier to do in the Texas heat than running, thanks to the airflow, and doubles as a means of transportation.

    --
    Lawrence Person (lawrencepersonh@gmailh.com (remove all "h"s to mail)

    http://www.lawrenceperson.com/

    1. Re:I took up biking... by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the lucid reasons for, and solutions for, increased injuries involving bikes.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
    2. Re:I took up biking... by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 2

      I took up running when someone tole my bike. I then broke my ankle and now I'm a fat slob.

    3. Re:I took up biking... by Insanity+Defense · · Score: 1

      I gave up conventional cycling and ride an E-Bike due to a permanent leg injury that attempting to ride a conventional bike made worse.

      I ride to work (about 20 miles or 30 km) I see lots of bad cyclists and bad drivers who violate the rules of the road constantly. E-Bike riders and surprisingly motorcycle drivers around here are *better* which is not to say perfect at best as a group they are *good*. I admit I sometimes make errors. I also get harassed by drivers telling me to "get on the sidewalk where I belong", by pedestrians telling me I'm not allowed on the bike path/lane or "shared use" paths (bikes, pedestrians, skaters and skateboarders etc) in spite of the law saying I'm to ride where conventional bikes do. Some if you talk to them and explain the actual law will acknowledge their error others won't even talk just yell and harass and deny anything you say - even when they are in fact riding their bike illegally with not lights for example. A few have complimented me on the care I take not to endanger other path users no matter how stupidly they behave.

      I've been stopped by police 4 times. 1/ What are you riding, 2/ missed a stop sign that I couldn't see due to overhanging branches that blocked my view from near the curb. A driver who is nearer the center line could see it. Wasn't ticketed and now I watch across the road to see the back of stop signs facing the other way. 3/ My route took me on a path where there was a road block due to a fatal accident and I wasn't allowed through leaving me 3 choices, wait till the investigation ended (hours) go over a bridge with much faster traffic or go the wrong way on a one way street (no sidewalk to walk the bike on and in front of the cop) and 4/ The cop has a personal policy against E-Bikes on bike lanes. Yeah he was making up his own laws and got threatening when I asked about the law being changed and cited the actual law which I HAVE read. Only once had I made an actual error and that was because the sign was not visible from the curb where I am supposed to ride. As a conventional cyclist I was stopped once for my headlight not working. Since I was actually on a private parking lot not a street and the cop didn't see me on a street I don't know if he could have ticketed me or not legally. He accepted me partially true answer about the batteries dying, they had died the prior night and were in fact fully charged in the charger at home where I had forgotten them along with the topped up spared I'd finished that ride with so "It was true from a certain point of view" :) .

    4. Re:I took up biking... by volmtech · · Score: 1

      I hurt my knee in a motorcycle accident when I was 19. Walking and running were no problem but I can't pedal a bicycle to the end of my driveway.

    5. Re:I took up biking... by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      ...because I hated running and it hurt my knees. Which is much the same reason George W. Bush took it up.

      It's also easier to do in the Texas heat than running, thanks to the airflow, and doubles as a means of transportation.

      It's great if you work in a lab or somewhere that has a walk in fridge or freezer where you can go as soon as you bike in until your temp gets to normal.

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
  15. Naw, it's Doctors by rsilvergun · · Score: 5, Insightful

    and Lawyers buying $3-5k bikes they have no business riding. If you're into road biking you know about this and if you're at the lower end of the economic spectrum they're the bane of your existence. They moved into the sport back in the mid 2005. I was shopping for my first real road bike and the price of a decent carbon fiber frame shot up a grand (Boeing's new planes didn't help either). I ended up with an Aluminum Cevelo (which ironically some old person hit me on and ruined :( ... ).

    Anyway you've got rich people in OK Shape buying ridiculously fast bikes. I see them all the time at the little charity runs I like to do. If you're smart you steer as clear as you can. They don't have the riding chops to handle the bike they just bought but they're usually in OK enough shape to be dangerous (the fat ones end up on cruisers :P ).

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Bicyclists DO have the right to use the full lane.

    2. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by tepples · · Score: 2

      Now, I'm not saying that I deliberately aim for arrogant little fucks like you who think that being on a bicycle gives you the right to block a full lane of traffic

      If there were one and a half through lanes, I wouldn't be taking the lane quite as often. But often, there's one through lane and one turn lane, and I stay out of the turn lane if I'm not turning.

    3. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 5, Insightful

      An important lesson I learned while biking: There is right and there is dead right.

    4. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by amiga3D · · Score: 0, Troll

      I always get the fuck away from cyclists when I'm driving my car. Most of them seem to have a serious death wish doing stupid shit that I wouldn't do even in my 2 and a half ton steel machine. I'm only amazed more of them don't off themselves under the wheels of a car. I don't need the aggravation of dealing with all the red tape involved in helping them commit suicide not to mention having to wash that shit off my car.

    5. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by hawguy · · Score: 0

      Anyway you've got rich people in OK Shape buying ridiculously fast bikes. I see them all the time at the little charity runs I like to do. If you're smart you steer as clear as you can. They don't have the riding chops to handle the bike they just bought but they're usually in OK enough shape to be dangerous (the fat ones end up on cruisers :P ).

      If only it were true that the amount of money spent on a bike correlates to the speed of the bike, but the average rider is going to be just as fast on a $1,000 bike (or similar type, i.e. don't compare a mountain bike and a road bike) as he is on a $5,000 bike. A few pounds of weight saved doesn't mean much when the rider is 30+ lbs overweight.

    6. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by DudeTheMath · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Easy there, big fella. Guess what? If the lane is not wide enough for a car to pass me with (in FL) a three foot gap, then, yes, I do have the right to "block" a full lane of traffic (hey, guess what else? I am traffic, so I'm not blocking it; I'm just slowing it). I also have the responsibility to signal my turns, stop for red lights (and in most states, stop signs; Google "Idaho stop"), and stay within the speed limit.

      I don't know about your experience on the roads, but I see a far higher percentage of cars than bikes failing to signal and exceeding the speed limit, and about the same percentage rolling stop signs.

      --
      You save only 59 seconds over 8 miles by going 75 instead of 65. Do you really have to pass that guy? Do the Math!
    7. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by Runaway1956 · · Score: 4, Informative

      "block a full lane of traffic"

      Speaking of arrogant little fucks - yes, they DO have the right to take up a full lane of traffic. A bicycle has the same right to use the road that a car, pickup, or tractor trailer has. Exactly the same. You really need to review traffic laws.

      Personally, I haven't ridden a bicycle in decades. I do, however, ride a motorcycle. I use the entire lane. It's a defensive measure, taught long long ago. You use the entire lane in order to discourage automobile drivers who might want to crowd you. Never leave part of your lane unoccupied for long, because motorists might want to pass you while using part of your lane.

      Before you make allusions that a bicyclist or motorcyclist doesn't know how to use the roadway, you really need to review the laws.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    8. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 2, Informative

      Depending on where you live, cyclists have rights to a full lane, and cars need to maintain a minimum 6' clear space when passing; this is the rule in California.

      But, I am starting to think that the arrogant fsck's like yourself here that are anti-bicycle are a major part of the problem.

      The other major factors are likely an increase in lower income riders in the recession, increased penetration of road vs mountain bikes, and cyclists that don't know how to ride in traffic. Personally, I think that people that ride on sidewalks are also a high risk group.

    9. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by uncqual · · Score: 2

      You must live somewhere quite different than where I do. Where I live, the vast majority of cars stop or slow almost to a complete stop (slower than a walking speed) at stop signs and an even larger percentage respect red lights and don't proceed until they turn green. However, it's quite rare to see a bicyclist come to a complete stop (usually when I do see it, it's a young child or a parent out with their small child teaching them how to ride and being careful to "set a good example") or even slow to walking speed at a stop sign and it's common to see them blow through red lights without even slowing down significantly.

      --
      Why is there an "insightful" mod and why isn't it "-1"? If I wanted insight, I wouldn't be reading /.
    10. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by dgatwood · · Score: 3, Informative

      This. I would have put it more tactfully, but a thousand times, this.

      Almost without fail, cyclists ignore stop signs, ignore traffic lights, turn without signaling, and generally ignore traffic laws willy nilly. It's one thing to make a right turn on a bicycle without stopping; it is quite another to speed past a stop sign, going straight through an intersection where the opposite direction doesn't have any obligation to stop.

      The number of serious mistakes made by cyclists in my presence has been climbing steadily over the past decade or so, which suggests that the level of recklessness exhibited by cyclists is increasing at an alarming rate, or at least the number of idiot cyclists is increasing at an alarming rate. You can't have cyclists ignoring the laws of the road and somehow expect drivers of cars to magically take up the slack. Responsibility for cyclists' safety must be shared.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    11. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is our local law so you're kilometreage may vary but it's 100% legal for cyclists here to "take the lane" for safety reasons. I do it once in a while on streets with 2 lanes each way to force cars to switch lanes to pass me. Cars are required to be 1m from cyclists to pass, however, many only leave me a foot or so and blaze by at 60kph. Bicycles are also considered vehicles here for the purpose of the law, and if you're passing a car you change lanes anyways, don't you?

      That being said, the best advice I can give other cyclists is "cars always have the right of way". Even if they don't, I've never seen a car come out looking worse in a fight between the two.
       
      Also you're "run over arrogant little shits like you" attitude is the exact opposite attitude you should have while operating any type of machinery, vehicle or otherwise, very unsafe.

    12. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 1

      not to mention having to wash that shit off my car.

      My father taught drivers ed in the 60's. He always told his students to try to avoid hitting people on bicycles because the spokes would scratch the hell out of your paint.

    13. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The number of serious mistakes made by cyclists in my presence has been climbing steadily over the past decade or so, which suggests that the level of recklessness exhibited by cyclists is increasing at an alarming rate, or at least the number of idiot cyclists is increasing at an alarming rate. You can't have cyclists ignoring the laws of the road and somehow expect drivers of cars to magically take up the slack. Responsibility for cyclists' safety must be shared.

      It isn't mistakes, it is arrogance. I rode the local bike trail, and it crosses the lower streets on the one side of town. The streets have no stop signs, or lights. Where as the bike trail has stop signs at every intersection. If you stop on the trail, the psycho bikers, with their logo plastered jerseys, will scream at you. I have personally witnessed an SUV locking up its brakes trying to not hit one of these idiots. I would have stayed around to tell the detective that the jackass ran the stop sign, and the car did nothing wrong. The bicycle packs are like motorcycle gangs on the road.

    14. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's an older issue than that: it's a status symbol thing. All the way back in the early 90s when I was only 9 or 10 I knew those up-and-coming suburbanite men who showed-off their toys and for quite a few of them this included a brand-new high-end bike they were really too plump and inexperienced to handle. These people "go all out" [buying] things to get into some hobby or fad without really starting at the lower part of the totem pole of goods "beneath them" when really that's what they need.

      --the [smack my face] "Dumbass" (http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=7969959&cid=50472729)

    15. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by Kavonte · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Just to expand on that for those who don't have experience:

      If you ride in the middle of the lane, when cars pass, they'll move entirely into the passing lane when doing so.

      If instead, you ride on the right edge of the lane, people approaching from behind see a lane in front of them that is almost empty, and so they assume that they almost don't have to avoid you. So one of two things happens, depending on if there is approaching traffic in the adjacent lane that they need to utilize to pass you:

      If there is no approaching traffic, as the driver gets closer and slowly realizes that there isn't enough room in the lane for them to skirt past you without leaving it, the driver will move about half way into the passing lane when passing you. The result is that, even though you're riding closer to the right edge of the lane, there will be less space between you and traffic that is passing you from behind.

      If there is approaching traffic in the passing lane, the driver still approaches under the assumption that they don't need the passing lane, and when they get closer and realize that they do need it, they move only about a quarter of the way into the passing lane. The result is that they're now a serious risk to both you and the approaching traffic. ...and if it comes down to it, you know that they're going to choose to hit you rather than the approaching traffic, as that is less likely to kill them.

      If you instead ride on the shoulder of the road, cars approaching from behind will neither bother to move over nor slow down, and so you'll have people constantly passing you on your left at 55 MPH, each time throwing you off-balance as they suck you into the stream of traffic. This is incredibly dangerous as all that has to happen for you to die is for this draft to cause you to fall over into the lane of traffic, then someone immediately behind whomever passed you will run over you.

      It's really best to hang out around 1/3 to 1/2 way from the right side to the left side of the lane. Being more to the left ironically puts more distance between you and other traffic, and it keeps that other traffic from doing some incredibly stupid things, as it is now obvious to other traffic that they have to wait until it is safe to pass.

      Essentially the problem is that motorists don't deal with bicyclists often, and so they don't know how to safely deal with them because they haven't put a lot of thought into the problem. As a bicyclist, you have to make it obvious to motorists what they need to do.

      It's better to be alive and hated by all motorists than it is to be dead.

    16. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Almost without fail, cyclists ignore stop signs, ignore traffic lights, turn without signaling, and generally ignore traffic laws willy nilly. It's one thing to make a right turn on a bicycle without stopping; it is quite another to speed past a stop sign, going straight through an intersection where the opposite direction doesn't have any obligation to stop.

      I see the very same behavior from an increasing number of drivers. Many of them are too busy on cell phones to notice the traffic lights or stop signs, and they no longer have the free hand to signal.

    17. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 1

      I don't know about your experience on the roads, but I see a far higher percentage of cars than bikes failing to signal and exceeding the speed limit, and about the same percentage rolling stop signs.

      I work at the University of Washington, and there are a lot of bicyclists both there and in Seattle in general - so I see a good sized sample during my train+bus commute. And I can say with confidence that easily a third of the bicyclists I observe routinely don't stop at signs (note: I'm including right turns on red) unless the intersection is busy enough to make it a risk to their lives. Most slow enough to check for cars, but they're still doing 5mph or better - I'm not talking about a "California Stop". And they seem to only care about cars, since those can hurt them - pedestrians apparently are supposed to get out of their way, in their view.

      Bicyclists need to obey traffic laws all the time, rather than when it's to their perceived advantage. The city needs to start enforcing this.

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    18. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you, this is it. I get honked at for taking a lane (I only do it on streets where there's another lane they can pass me) but I really can't be helped if they're operating a motor vehicle with no knowledge of the law.

    19. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Guess what? If the lane is not wide enough for a car to pass me with (in FL) a three foot gap, then, yes, I do have the right to "block" a full lane of traffic ...

      Not really. You are allowed to do so for a short time, but not indefinitely. In particular, most states have slow vehicle laws that require you to pull off the road if you are unable to drive at a speed that does not impede the flow of traffic. The exact laws vary widely from state to state.

      California, for example, requires that you pull off the road if there are five or more cars behind you; the same law also applies to slow-moving cars, trucks, etc. (California Vehicle Code section 21656)

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    20. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by funwithBSD · · Score: 2

      It is not 6 feet, it is 3 feet.

      If you are going to defend cyclists, please don't make us look bad by being ignorant.

      http://www.sfgate.com/outdoors...

      --
      Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
    21. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by dgatwood · · Score: 2

      A bicycle has the same right to use the road that a car, pickup, or tractor trailer has.

      Yes, and bicycles traveling in a traffic lane at speeds significantly below the posted limit are required by law to periodically pull off the road to let cars around, just like any other slow-moving vehicle. Neither bicycles nor cars nor any other vehicle are allowed to block traffic for an extended period of time.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    22. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      If dumb rich bastards are going to get themselves killed in accidents, it's much safer and more environmentally friendly for them to use a high-end racing bicycle than a supercar or small aircraft.

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    23. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      I wonder how the automated cars are going to handle these cases? Will there be a series of Settings checkboxes that you can use to adjust your car's programming for your political attitude toward cyclists and pedestrians?

    24. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      While that is true, it is a judgement call. And, your judgement carries no more legal weight than that of the bicyclist.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    25. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by epyT-R · · Score: 1

      They do, but physical reality trumps lawyer driven law every time. As a rider, I stay to the side and always operate with the assumption that the cars can't see me. This is probably the most important safety tip. Riders who think they're on equal footing with cars are foolish idiots.

    26. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      When I visit a new city for the first time, I always start by doing a lot of walking around to get the flavor of the place. There is just one place in the world I have gotten catcalled by cyclists, rather than any demographic of drivers - Portland. In fact cyclists have the drivers so cowed there that they won't even let them pump their own gas.

    27. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A long time ago I was rich and bought a 5000$ bike. Now that I am old, fat, and poor, I still have the same bike. I tell people that I get fatter faster than bikes get better.

    28. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by epyT-R · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Bikes are illegal on interstates, and most state roads do not have passing lanes. Do yourself and motorists a favor, take up only what space you need. Hogging the whole lane to do 12-15mph just irritates the hell out of people and causes them to do stupid things, esp if there's no 'legal' way to pass. This especially holds true in blind spots. You cannot assume they see you.

    29. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by cyber-vandal · · Score: 3, Informative

      UK cyclists are just as stupid. I'm amazed there aren't more fatalities. There was an attempt to bring in a law that would assume driver guilt in the case of a collision. If that ever comes in, I'm getting a dash cam because I'm not being held responsible for some dickhead falling under my wheels because they didn't think one way Street signs applied to them. It would also be nice if the police stopped them from riding through pedestrian areas at break neck speed.

    30. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      bicycles? exceeding the speed limit? Maybe downhill doing 28 in a 25. That's not really the issue. Slowing traffic may be legal, but it also pisses off a lot of people especially if there's no way to pass. Then they do stupid things that get you killed.

      Rolling stop signs? That's usually only something a cop uses to fill his quota. Judging from your sig, pedants like you are the trolls who cause accidents by bucking the trend in traffic flow for a given area.

    31. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      I've seen that too. When you put inattentive auto drivers and inattentive bicyclists together you get dead and maimed bicyclists. Cars are big and armored. If I had to ride a bike it'd be bike lane only or on a sidewalk. Getting into the street is big risk. Sometimes I don't feel safe in a car.

    32. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by sl149q · · Score: 1

      There is no such thing as a fast bike unless it has some built-in motor.

      There are bikes that will go fast if the rider has the legs to make it go fast.

    33. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by trg83 · · Score: 1

      You highlight another important issue: geographical and urban/suburban/rural variations. Where I live, almost every road has multiple lanes going each direction. I think it is definitely important to teach various scenarios to both cyclists and motorists.

    34. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by sl149q · · Score: 1

      Complaints like that will just result in lower overall speed limits. Be careful what you complain about.

    35. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Well, it doesn't give you the right to hit the cyclist, if that's what you mean. It does give you the right to tap your horn, or maybe even call the police, if you're feeling particularly vindictive that day. :-)

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    36. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by rgbatduke · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yeah, one major part of the problem is that even in supposedly "bike friendly" towns where they have a "bike lane", that lane ranges from 8 inches wide to less than a meter wide. Sometimes several times within a stretch of 1/3 of mile. There is often crap in it -- branches, leaves, rocks, bottles -- or open grates over storm drains. In the summertime south they can even have middling large poisonous snakes in it, especially early morning or late evening.

      I'd love to ride my bike to work, and sometimes do in spite of the fact that the "bike lanes" I ride in have all of the features on the list above -- averaging around 18 inches in width (but actually disappearing altogether without warning as the road passes under an overpass where the pylons come down right on the edge of the road so there isn't any shoulder either). I've been blown past by full-scale dump trucks going 55+ mph and missing me by whole feet.

      I lived in Durham for decades without hearing of a single bike fatality and few accidents. In the last few years, friends of mine have been killed or been dumped in the ICU for weeks, all because of precisely the conditions you list above -- you're damned if you ride in the lane because it provides the illusion of having enough room but when it is 8" wide, it doesn't, and you're damned if you ride out in the lane because there are folks on the road you don't think you should be there or are drunk and are driving massive vehicles at unsafe speeds even before you show up in their sights.

      Personally, I think that if official policy is "riding bikes is good, reduces energy consumption, promotes good cardiovascular health" then government needs to make a serious commitment to making safe bikeways. In my opinion, that means unobstructed, clean bike lanes at least 1 meter wide NOT including gutter/grate or curb if present, and not borrowing from the road shoulder. It also means providing protected dedicated function bikeways that parallel things like 4 to 6 lane roads where biking will NEVER be safe, so you aren't forced to ride on roads that are dangerous to cars, let alone bikes, to get from point A to point B.

      Finally, yeah, it wouldn't be crazy to license bike riders who plan to ride on non-neighborhood streets, even if it is a one time license that you get after you prove you understand the rules of the road and how they practically pertain to bikes. Accidents are often caused by bikers, not just by car or truck or motorcycle drivers. I've watched people biking down the road on the wrong side, thinking that they are some sort of pedestrian.

      rgb

      --
      Even when the experts all agree, they may well be mistaken. --- Bertrand Russell.
    37. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Sorry to burst your bubble, but it's the cyclists who don't know how to ride their bikes safely. Either be a vehicle, subject to all traffic laws, or be a pedestrian, subject to all pedestrian laws. If you're riding in the middle of a lane like a slow car or abroad and buggy, you don't get to ride the lane lines to pass stopped traffic. You stop with traffic. You don't get to roll through stop signs at full speed. You don't get to hop between sidewalk, crosswalk, and street at your whim to skip traffic.

      And to expound upon GP's "right" and "dead right": no matter what the speed limit is, if you're riding on street where the cars regularly travel at 50+mph, and there's a convenient sidewalk or bike path alongside the road, however winding, use the sidewalk or bike path. Save your life before your prideful entitlement. And especially don't weave back and forth at 10mph going the wrong direction on a 40mph road wearing all black with your reflectors blacked out. Yes, I saw an adult do that once at dusk. FTW cyclists? Don't bike drunk.

    38. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "But it's legal for me to obstruct traffic!" Yeah, and it's also legal to be a paparazzo, or run through Harlem handing out KKK literature. Legality isn't the primary test for douchiness or personal safety. The biggest problem with the 35-55 group is they're the "Me-first" adults.

    39. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by bferrell · · Score: 1

      uh... No, the rule for the road is and always has been slower stuff stays to the right and get the hell out of the traffic

    40. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2

      "block a full lane of traffic"

      Except in this case this is entirely subjective. I ride bicycles. I ride motorcycles. And I drive cars too. And there is NO DIFFERENCE when it comes to idiots and "blocking full lane of traffic". They get just as nuts no matter what and they pass you dangerously no matter what.

      1. Group of cyclists (about 40 people, so we take entire lane - to go faster and so cars can pass us easier), riding in morning on weekend on winding country road. Speed limit, 70km/h. Bike speed: 40km/h. Most of the road is single lane and you can't pass in turns. Fortunately, there is very little traffic. Maybe 5 car every 5 minutes in both directions.

      But how do motorists pass us? Do they wait to pass safely what basically is a long tractor trailer length of bikes? Fuck no! They go full bore into blind corner in opposing lane where they can't see opposing traffic. And that is not isolated incident, nope. Another case, I was on that road alone on right side. No traffic, except two cars just happened to pass me at same time from opposite directions. They guy didn't even bother to give me 2 ft. of space because "I was blocking his way".

      2. Motorcycle. I've had an idiot start passing a semi going the other way on a highway coming toward me. And the highway becomes divided for them about 2km further! I was forced to slow down and almost on shoulder because of idiots that are impatient.

      3. Cars. Let's say you are going 105km/h on highway. Posted limit is 100km/h. But if there is one person behind you, they tend to pass you just to cut you off and ride in front at 106km/h even in situations where such passing is dangerous. 1km/h is somehow worth it for them.

      What's the morale of this story? Impatient idiots are causing crashes and deaths no matter what. If they are "inconvenienced" enough to need to slow down for cyclists, or cars, then they are pissed because "they are blocking their way". These people take it as some personal insult. Instead of viewing others on the road as other people, trying to get places, they view them as obstacles that must be surmounted.

      It doesn't matter if you ride a bike or motorbike or car, you'll come across such people even if you are one of them. Then you have to be careful - people can die because someone doesn't like to get somewhere 10 seconds or 2 minutes later. And I mean it - in all my time cycling I've put in over 50,000km on the bike, and I've never managed to "inconvenience" anyone more than 1 or 2 minutes, and that is very very rare. But there are these 2-5% of drivers that feel that their inconvenience is somehow purposely imposed on them and they will literally put their lives and lives of others in danger because of that.

      And yes, 95-98% of drivers are excellent and pass safely. It's always the tiny minority of assholes that causes problems. The difference is on a bike, you get passed by a lot more cars, so your chances of meeting those assholes increases simply because laws of large numbers.

      Here's an example of such idiot,
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
      I think that guy ended up with a major citation and a court date.

      What is my recommendation for cyclists? Get a bike camera to record things (get one for your car too!). Also, get a mirror on your bike or helmet so you can see stuff behind you. But above all, ride safely. And if you ride in city, don't pass cars when they stand on red light - wait behind them in middle of the lane - like a normal vehicle. Only move to right when riding *and* it's safe to do so.

    41. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by kyrsjo · · Score: 1

      No, just like there won't be a button for "drive through reds and break the speed limit", there won't be a button to "run over cyclists and pedestrians".

    42. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bicyclists might have the right to block traffic, but that doesn't make them any less of a dick for doing it.

    43. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by emj · · Score: 1

      California, for example, requires that you pull off the road if there are five or more cars behind you; the same law also applies to slow-moving cars, trucks, etc. (California Vehicle Code section 21656)

      That does not mean you are allowed to pass the slow vehicle just because there are five of you. I've had 10 cars behind me without any possiblity to let the pass, I can tell you it's a lot more stressfull on the cyclists than on the cars.

    44. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by Hognoxious · · Score: 4, Insightful

      if you're riding on street where the cars regularly travel at 50+mph, and there's a convenient sidewalk or bike path alongside the road, however winding, use the sidewalk or bike path.

      And if I'm walking on it (what kind of idiot would walk on a sidewalk?) with my kids and we have our backs to you just feel free to shoot the gap and if you misjudge it and knock my five year old flat on his face feel free to yell at him because he didn't walk in a straight line. And then when I yell at *you* call the police and accuse me of assault.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    45. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by bugs2squash · · Score: 1

      There's always one jerk, thinks that everyone should leap out of his way rather than have him slow down for a few seconds. It happened to me recently, I was with my daughter and her friend, they were in the cycle lane (a couple of feet wide) and I rode a little outside the cycle lane on the right side of the "car" lane. I figured I would be more visible, give drivers some warning that the girls were there. An SUV rolled right up behind me and immediately hit his horn, wanted to punish me for being in "his" lane I suppose.

      The thing that really winds me up is to see adult cyclists on the sidewalk, generally going against the traffic direction at high speed. That way when I check both ways before pulling out of an intersection in my car they can still "appear" out of nowhere to cross in front of me.

      --
      Nullius in verba
    46. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by Hognoxious · · Score: 2

      Without any possibility to let them pass? My arse.

      Or perhaps you interpreted it as "any possibility to let them pass other than by pulling over to the kerb[1], stopping and undoing my toe clips, which is SO UNFAIR, WAAAGH".

      [1] or curb. These days I forget who spells it which way.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    47. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by Anonymice · · Score: 1

      Most cyclists will average around at least 20mph, but the point is drivers doing stupid things leave you dead, whilst not being able to squeeze past a cyclist might delay you by an extra 5 minutes.
      YOU may be a conscientious driver, but there are enough idiots on the roads that a cyclist has to be defensive. A mistake on a bike can mean a few bruises, a mistake in a car will kill people. 2 tons travelling at 60mph is a *lot* of energy.

      The average weight of a car is 4079 pounds, or 1850.2kg. 60mph is 26.8metres/s.
      So, if ke = ½ mv...

      1850.2 * 26.8 = 1,328KJ ...and let's say 100KG for your average cyclist & bike. (20mph = 8.9metres/s)
      100KG * 8.9 = 8KJ

      That's a huge fuckton of difference that a large majority of drivers tend to take for granted.

    48. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by SteveSgt · · Score: 1

      Taking a whole lane is just fine... if you're doing the same speed as the rest of the traffic. If you're going considerably slower, then get the fuck over to the side and quit being a hazard.

      I'll bet you say that to all of the farm and construction equipment you encounter.

    49. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by MouseTheLuckyDog · · Score: 2

      As long as I am riding within the law. ( Not for example running a red light. ) I love people honking at me. It means that if they hit me they can't claim it was an accident.

    50. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by Malc · · Score: 1

      Finally, yeah, it wouldn't be crazy to license bike riders who plan to ride on non-neighborhood streets

      How much do you want to bet that most adult cyclists also have a driving license? I.e. they're already licensed.

    51. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by infolation · · Score: 1

      Cyclists will use a $60 kit so they appear to be a big, scary articulated lorry to the automated cars.

    52. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, just wow. I don't ride a bike that much but I have to say that is the most arrogant post ever. Dicks like you are the problem on our roads so do us all a favour and wrap your car around a tree next time you're out there, the road will be safer without you on it.

    53. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by rhubarb42 · · Score: 1

      guard your lane, as they say. it works. and helps drivers too. especially when entering an intersection, as a bike, ride like a car, take the middle of the land through the intersection. Don't sneak all the way up along the right when there's a light/stop sign. get in line just like every other vehicle. go through the intersection as a car, then about 50 yards afterwards, move to the right more and ride like a bike. So easy.

    54. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. If the road is such that, if a motorist were inconsiderate enough to pass it would be too close, then don't tempt them to do so by hugging the curb. Take the full lane where they can see you, and so can cars turning into, across or out of that road. On the rare occasion a driver does sound his horn of rev his engine I know I've just saved myself from someone who'd have tried to squeeze by and/or force me into the dooring zone where I can't be seen.

    55. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by Blaskowicz · · Score: 1

      As a rule of thumb I say there's a 10 kph difference between a slow bike and a fast bike i.e. if you're doing 20 kph on a slow one you'd be doing 30 kph on a faster one. There is a huge difference with wheel size, loss in bearings, tire pressure, brake effectiveness etc.

    56. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bicyclists DO have the right to use the full lane.

      Jawnn here just posted "Convict me of premediated murder" in any future "accident" he gets in with a bicyclist. Don't mod him down, shine a light on that.

    57. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 2

      CVC 21656:

      21656. On a two-lane highway where passing is unsafe because of traffic in the opposite direction or other conditions, a slow-moving vehicle, including a passenger vehicle, behind which five or more vehicles are formed in line, shall turn off the roadway at the nearest place designated as a turnout by signs erected by the authority having jurisdiction over the highway, or wherever sufficient area for a safe turnout exists, in order to permit the vehicles following it to proceed. As used in this section a slow-moving vehicle is one which is proceeding at a rate of speed less than the normal flow of traffic at the particular time and place.

      It is VERY rare to see a street without shoulders at least 18" wide - and that's plenty of width to ride a bike. In California, you need to get over as soon as you see 5+ people behind you, and use the shoulder so others can pass. That's the law. And it's the same basic law in WA and OR as well.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    58. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      It's really not a judgment call. Five or more vehicles behind you? You need to pull over and let them pass. That's the law in CA, WA, and OR - and probably most other States, too. No judgment call about it - it's illegal to hold up 5 or more vehicles behind you.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    59. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by CastrTroy · · Score: 2

      Racing bikes tend to be more difficult to handle. Doubly so if they are equipped with aero bars. They are meant for highly skilled riders to move at high speeds. Compared to older road bikes, or something like a touring bike which can still go plenty fast but aren't quite as twitchy.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    60. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by iamwahoo2 · · Score: 1

      Depends on the state maybe. In some states (Michigan I know), they are expected to be as far right as practical. Also, they can be ticketed for impeding the flow of traffic. Unfortunately, this is part of the problem. Most cyclists think that the laws are the same for them as it is for everyone else. They end up doing lots of stupid things that eventually catch up with them.

    61. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by WalrusSlayer · · Score: 1

      It's better to be alive and hated by all motorists than it is to be dead.

      Yup, or as I like to say, "if they're pissed off at me, that at least means they can SEE me". Which is the primary objective for a bicyclist in traffic---getting the vehicles to even notice that you are there.

      Anyone is capable of seriously injuring a bicyclist by accident if they simply aren't aware that there is a problem. It takes a real psycho to injure a bicyclist intentionally. I'd rather play the odds that most drivers on the road are not in the latter category, even if I annoy them to some degree.

    62. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by Leuf · · Score: 1

      My neighbor's teenage son rides his bike opposing traffic. His parents walk down the road with traffic. His face was not embedded in a windshield one day because I'm a good enough driver to anticipate what was going to happen in a blind corner and came to a complete stop in my lane so the opposing car that I couldn't even see yet had somewhere to go as he merrily rode his bike down the middle of the lane into traffic where an overpass at the sharp corner makes it impossible to see him coming. Maybe I was just too awe struck at the stupidity to drive rather than a good driver. He did not learn a thing from this event and continued merrily along the main road against traffic. He's going to continue doing this until he stops riding a bike or dies because his parents are idiots. Another much younger and unsupervised child almost ran her bike straight into the front of my truck after I came to a complete stop because she was again in the middle of my lane and apparently expected me to go into the opposite lane for her rather than stop. Nobody is teaching these kids the rules of the road.

    63. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      they can even have middling large poisonous snakes in it

      That sounds like it has a story behind it.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    64. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by Luckyo · · Score: 2

      That is incorrect. There are several features on the bike that make it much easier to get to high speed even with less musculature driving it. I'm talking about things like thinner wheels and tyres, less air drag causing posture setup, lighter frame, higher quality moving parts and gearing and so on.

      Those have a direct impact on your driving speeds. I myself am in decent shape, riding a "normal" steel frame 26" wheelbase mountain bike, I go about 15-20km/h average speed. On my 28" alumimum one with better handles and proper suspension under the saddle and on the front fork, I push 25-30km/h average. The few times I got to try out the road bike with carbon fibre, I could easily go over 35km/h average.

      Bike matters. A lot. Steel frame sitting on fat 26" wheels that makes you sit upright means that once you actually manage to get all that mass accelerated to about 20km/h, air friction, rolling friction on wheels and heavy mass of the bike is just going to get nasty if you want to go faster. Carbon fibre road bike means that you have bike that weighs almost nothing, so much better acceleration, and your completely different posture combined with thin, large wheels means that air friction and rolling friction on wheels starts to get noticeable at much faster speeds.

      Additionally lower posture means that controlling the bike is much harder, as it's less ergonomic.

    65. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The paved bike trails in southern california get snakes on them. As you would expect, bikes crush them and sometimes riders get bitten. Biker bites are very infrequent compared to hikers walking along trails.

    66. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bicyclists DO have the right to use the full lane.

      Law vary from state to state.
      In Georgia you would be wrong.
      Quick link: http://www.syfert.com/gacode/4...

      official State of Ga link: http://www.lexisnexis.com/hott...
      search for O.C.G.A. 40-6-294 (2015)

      here's the text.
      (a) Every person operating a bicycle upon a roadway shall ride as near to the right side of the roadway as practicable, except when turning left or avoiding hazards to safe cycling, when the lane is too narrow to share safely with a motor vehicle, when traveling at the same speed as traffic, or while exercising due care when passing a standing vehicle or one proceeding in the same direction; provided, however, that every person operating a bicycle away from the right side of the roadway shall exercise reasonable care and shall give due consideration to the other applicable rules of the road.

      A simple google search shows that other states have similar laws and people have been ticketed.

    67. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by Goat+of+Death · · Score: 1

      Except that's precisely how the Netherlands laws have worked for decades. And they have some of the safest roads in the developed world. God forbid you have to take extra care looking out for someone who is far more vulnerable than you.

    68. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you have a specification for "Extended period of time"? Who determines that? The operator of the slow moving vehicle or the people behind them? Under what conditions are they allowed to slow traffic for extended periods of time? Or are they only required to pull over when it is safe and practicable to do so? Surely you don't think they should pull over in a dangerous manner for your convenience? Who then decides? The operator of the slow moving vehicle, right? Certainly, a law enforcement officer could discuss it with them, but it is a judgement call on the part of the vehicle operator. It's the same as if you are pulling a heavy trailer up a grade, driving an ag tractor, piloting a Citroen 2CV or riding a bicycle. You need to pull over, but you pull over when and where you deem it is safe to do so.

    69. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by cyn1c77 · · Score: 1

      It's better to be alive and hated by all motorists than it is to be dead.

      But it's even better to be alive and liked by all motorists!

      A lot of the cyclist hate is driven by cyclists and motorists driving around with a mentality they are at war with each other. If everyone just treated the other as they would prefer to be treated, things would go a lot smoother. Instead, things escalate because of mistakes on both sides:

      Tailgating a cyclist in your pickup just to be a dick? Fail. Cycling uphill in the middle of a 55 MPH lane at 15 mph just to be a dick? Fail.

      Not passing a cyclist with enough space to show him who's boss? Fail. Not moving over to let a motorist by who has been stuck behind you for a mile? Fail.

      You get my point...? It goes both ways. When you get locked in to one mentality, you just alienate others against your cause.

      We could also easily extend this to pedestrians. Sadly, there's been a general loss of respect and politeness in public amongst humans over the past 20 years.

    70. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by gumbi+west · · Score: 1

      Where I am the city turned a driving lane into a bike lane. It's quite nice and feels safe. You neither have to worry about getting doored nor about cars coming too close. The only issue is that they remove the lane at major intersections.

    71. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by Kaenneth · · Score: 1

      For example, It's illegal in Seattle to do more then 10 under the speed limit. A bicyclist doing 20 in a 35 can get a ticket.

    72. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by HammerToe · · Score: 1

      No.

      e = mv^2.

      -Matt

    73. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by ncc74656 · · Score: 1

      Bikes are illegal on interstates

      Not always. If it's the only road in the area, they might be allowed. While driving down to LA to visit family, I've seen bikes climbing I-15 toward Mountain Pass. They're usually expected to switch to surface streets when passing through town, but out in BFE, the interstate is often the only road available.

      --
      20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
    74. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by kheldan · · Score: 1

      Essentially the problem is that motorists don't deal with bicyclists often, and so they don't know how to safely deal with them because they haven't put a lot of thought into the problem. As a bicyclist, you have to make it obvious to motorists what they need to do.

      As an avid cylist myself (and a road racer) the best advice I can give? Be predictable. Don't ride like it's your private road and no one else could possibly be on it. Hold your line; don't suddenly change direction, don't make sudden moves of any kind. Ride as far to the right as is safe to do so. Need to make a left turn? Look over your shoulder, just like you would driving. Traffic is heavy/crazy/you can't see? Pull to the right where it's safe to do so and stop, look, wait for it to be 100% clear, then cross. Drivers are not going to stop for you, don't expect them to, expect that they cannot or refuse to see you and act accordingly. Finally, if you are scared all the time you're riding on public roads, then don't ride on public roads until you've improved your riding skills to the point where you're confident in the saddle. Scared people don't think straight and make mistakes, and mistakes on public roads riding a bicycle will get you killed. Don't be That Guy.

      --
      Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
    75. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by kheldan · · Score: 1

      Finally, yeah, it wouldn't be crazy to license bike riders who plan to ride on non-neighborhood streets, even if it is a one time license that you get after you prove you understand the rules of the road and how they practically pertain to bikes.

      No, absolutely NOT. That's a Slipperly Slope and it is to be avoided at all costs. It would end up excluding entire classes of people, and would open the door to using cyclists as another revenue stream, essentially ruining it for everyone. We're not going there!

      --
      Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
    76. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by Kavonte · · Score: 1

      Sorry to burst your bubble, but it's the cyclists who don't know how to ride their bikes safely.

      No bubble burst, as I've seen other bicyclists. (Yes, I also drive sometimes.)

      However, taking the lane simply isn't one of the unsafe things that bicyclists often do, because it's done for safety, unlike all of the things you describe which they do not for safety, but instead merely because they want to arrive at their destination faster. Drivers and bicyclists both need to realize that safety is more important than speed.

    77. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      There'll be localised versions of the software, and the one for Belgium will have those activated by default.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    78. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by pipedwho · · Score: 1

      Don't worry, it's far more likely that a skateboarder, jogger or car turning into a driveway will knock you over on the sidewalk. Dickheads will be dickheads no matter what mode of transport they employ or where they use it.

    79. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by pipedwho · · Score: 1

      Accidents are often caused by bikers, not just by car or truck or motorcycle drivers.

      Funnily, in Australia a Monash University study found that 87% of accidents between a cyclist and a car was caused by the car. So, yes some are caused by the cyclist going for a Darwin Award, but the vast majority are caused by the driver of the car.

    80. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by Kavonte · · Score: 2

      and knock my five year old flat on his face feel free to yell at him because he didn't walk in a straight line

      Worst is when they yell "on your left" as they approach, which naturally leads one to wonder who is yelling what from behind them, and so they turn around to look behind them and, in doing so, step into the path of the bicycle.

      Bicyclists and drivers both need to learn that they aren't entitled to never have to slow down.

    81. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I decribe this as the CDW venn. Where it is optimistically assumed that all people are good and are road users of some form. Then venn is three overlapping circles; C=cyclists D=drivers and W=wankers. Examples in the triple overlap I find tend to be middle aged men with SUVs and own carbon racers. However in general I find that anyone in the wanker category is irrationally angry and has an exaggerated view of self importance. I hate cyclists that don't follow traffic laws. My view, backed by no evidence, is people pay cyclists less respect on the road as a consequence of lumping all cyclists into a "law breaking and therefore have no worth as human" category.

    82. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by Sique · · Score: 2

      I don't know about the U.S. traffic laws, but here at least, you are only allowed to overtake if you keep a distance of at least a meter to the vehicle you are overtaking. This almost ever forbids passing cyclists in the same lane. You actually have to use another lane to overtake a cyclists. Anything else is considered dangerous driving (albeit it is still common). So cyclists are using their lane rightfully, and demanding of them to "not block the lane" is akin to admitting that you regularly endanger others in traffic and get angry if you are not allowed to do so.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    83. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by Malc · · Score: 1

      As a licensed driver it's incumbent upon you to adapt your driving to the conditions. Sounds like you need to go slower and more cautiously in that neighbourhood. I'm not sure what jurisdiction you're in, but the highway code here explicitly points out that both pedestrians and cyclists are unpredictable and drivers must be cautious and are expect to drive safely whatever they do. For me, I just got back from driving the Amalfi coast in Italy (and Bosnia and Albania the year before), so I think anything nob-end cyclist can try on won't phase me. You should try a driving holiday there. Added bonus for me being on the wrong side of the road.

    84. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by Phillip2 · · Score: 1

      There is actually good research on this. In the UK, the cycling position that is recommended by the Department of Transport as a result of, you know, actually looking systematically at the evidence is called "primary position" which is well out from the left, near the middle of the lane. It massively increases your visibility, although it does sometimes cause irritation to drivers.

      So, the OP is probably correct that this works in the US as well, except that you should be well out from the right. The space you need is the space that is necessary to keep you safe, and nothing at all to do with the space you need to manoeuvre.

      Still don't let evidence stand in the way of your good anecdotes which are, I am sure, a far better basis for public policy.

    85. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i dont know in your country but in mine roads have a high speed limit but also a low speed limit (half of the maximum limit), and cyclists are more often than not going constantly under the lower speed limit, that is they are riding in the WRONG, ALL THE TIME.
      If the road says it has a 60kmh limit and you are below 30 you should not be on that road, if the road is limited to 80kmh you are going to have to be lance armstrong or going downhill because you will probably be going below 40 kmh and you are not supossed to be on that road at that speed AT ALL

      Im european and altho im not dutch, i grew up on a fricking bmx and later mountain bike, thats why i have girly arms but legs that dont seem to belong to the rest of my body, if im 10 years old and i already know im not supossed to go ever go on a road with cars that are going 50 or higher, adults should know that too, is way too dangerous

      Also, if a brach or an uneven manhole can stop your bike ride on your fancy bike lane you should try, i dont know, walking, or something simpler, like staying in bed

    86. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How does a cyclist in a collision by rearending from a car kill a driver?

      And he has the right to use whatever part of the lane he wishes. There is no RIGHT to overtake.

    87. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by Anonymice · · Score: 1

      Huh, my superscript ^2s have been stripped out. Still, the result's correct...

    88. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by indytx · · Score: 2

      Speaking of arrogant little fucks - yes, they DO have the right to take up a full lane of traffic. A bicycle has the same right to use the road that a car, pickup, or tractor trailer has. Exactly the same. You really need to review traffic laws.

      I suppose it depends on where you live. In Texas, Section 551.103 of the Transportation Code states that "a person operating a bicycle on a roadway who is moving slower than the other traffic on the roadway shall ride as near as practicable to the right curb or edge of the roadway . . . " There are obviously exceptions, but as a general rule you don't get to ride in the middle of a lane here.

      --
      Make love, not reality television.
    89. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by r0kk3rz · · Score: 1

      As a Motorcyclist you have a few distinct advantages over cyclists, namely speed and acceleration.

      The problems come about when you have traffic of greatly differing speeds sharing the same roadways. On a motorcycle you can happily travel at (or above) the speed of traffic, where as cyclists top out rather quickly

      The answer is of course to separate the cyclists from the roads, and offer them cycleways (not bike lanes) through the city to get where they're going. A good example of this is Milton Keynes in the UK, and their redways which spread throughout the whole area and are completely separated from the roads. This isn't possible everywhere due to historical and landscape reasons, but it should be incorporated when planning new suburbs and major redevelopments.

    90. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by jittles · · Score: 1

      It's really not a judgment call. Five or more vehicles behind you? You need to pull over and let them pass. That's the law in CA, WA, and OR - and probably most other States, too. No judgment call about it - it's illegal to hold up 5 or more vehicles behind you.

      Except that it's still a judgement call. If you're bicycling in a busy city then you'll never get anywhere because there will always be 5 cars behind you. Not to mention the fact that you may be going fast enough that you're not really impeding the flow of traffic depending on stop lights and other conditions. If you're on a mountain road, or somewhere that often has large gaps in the traffic then you're right, no judgement call needed. Just get the hell out of the way. But how many cars do this, too? I can't tell you how many times I've been stuck behind a slow vehicle on windy California roads where motorists don't move out of the way for growing line of people who want to go the posted speed limit.

    91. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They also have an abundance of separate, dedicated cycle lanes, hence the improved road safety for all road users.

    92. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      Essentially the problem is that motorists don't deal with bicyclists often, and so they don't know how to safely deal with them because they haven't put a lot of thought into the problem. As a bicyclist, you have to make it obvious to motorists what they need to do.

      The other problem is that not all cyclists do this. The motorist hating in you is thinking, "the other cyclist I just passed (six inches away at 60mph) was riding in the gutter so why isn't this one doing the same?"

      The learning process could be accelerated by every single cyclist riding properly (ie. in the middle of the lane).

      --
      No sig today...
    93. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by Joce640k · · Score: 1

      I wonder how the automated cars are going to handle these cases?

      Better than the humans, one suspects.

      --
      No sig today...
    94. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      California, for example, requires that you pull off the road if there are five or more cars behind you; the same law also applies to slow-moving cars, trucks, etc. (California Vehicle Code section 21656)

      I wonder how that would work, I can't see you getting any forward progress with a law like that. I saw a law of that kind in Montana, but there the lack of traffic kind of made it make sense, in CA, the traffic would essentially prevent you from being in the lane for more than a couple of seconds.

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    95. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by rgbatduke · · Score: 1

      Sure, but that doesn't mean that they know even elementary things about riding a bike safely. Starting with things like "On the road, a bike is a vehicle and hence should follow all of the rules that pertain to vehicles" such as riding on the right hand side of the road (with traffic, not facing traffic), using signals for turns (and knowing what the signals for turns are!), slow traffic keeping right, being VERY cautious passing any vehicle on the right as a) they don't expect you to be passing them; b) you are probably driving up through their blind spot; c) they can easily e.g. cut you off unexpectedly with an unsignalled right turn or by pulling over towards the curb or shoulder. And so on. Bikes follow the rules of vehicles, but not exactly the rules of vehicles, because common sense has to play a role too and bikes cannot go fast enough to keep up with cars, can be difficult to see or keep track of when one is driving a car or truck, can easily be cut off or forced into a parked vehicle or pothole or road hazard and are particularly vulnerable if hit. Even things like wearing a bike helmet or using some sort of rear view mirror need to be taught because some people think commuting on a bike down a busy street as a brittle-boned adult with your head six or seven feet above the ground is the same as riding it as a bendy-boned kid in a quiet neighborhood cul-de-sac with their head four feet above the ground (and the kid should be wearing a helmet TOO because closed head injuries can ruin your whole day -- for the rest of all of your brain-dead days.

      And don't even get me started about riding at night. The closest I've ever come to killing somebody -- lifetime -- was driving my car across Duke's Campus Drive (a road that connects East and West Campus). I was crossing it on a dirt road, and at that time there was a stop sign but no nearby street lights so it was completely dark except for my headlights, which were very slightly angled up as the cross-road was on a gentle slope relative to Campus Drive. I stop. Look left -- nothing but black. Look right -- stygian dark. Glance right again, left again, and start to accelerate. JUST as I start to punch it forward, looking straight ahead, a bike flashes directly in front of my vehicle. No lights. Driver wearing dark clothes and no helmet, face turned towards me, terrified eyes wide open as he realizes that I'm moving straight at him. My foot moving faster than thought to mash the brakes so I missed him by a whole foot. And he vanishes into the night.

      And the worst part of it is -- I'm sure that he thinks he was in the right, had the right of way, bikes can do anything they want, the laws of the road or mere laws of common sense don't apply to bike riders. If I'd hit him and by any miracle NOT killed him (he was booking, the collision would have thrown him ten or twenty feet in the air with no helmet) I'm sure he would have sued me and of course who knows what would have happened to me in the hands of the law regardless of the letter. At the very least I would have had to live with killing/maiming some other human, my fault or not.

      I'd say that you can't fix stupid, but stupid wasn't the problem if the kid was a Duke student (as was very likely). Ignorant, yes, stupid, probably not. One hopes that the numb-nut learned from the experience and invested in a BIKE LIGHT, as even riding between campuses on a road that IS the moral equivalent of a neighborhood cul-de-sac down an unlit stretch shared with cars and then running RIGHT IN FRONT OF a car that is stopped at a stop sign and about to go when they cannot possibly see you can kill you just as dead as an ISIS IED.

      Other advantages of a license -- right now in NC, if one reads through chapter 20 (the vehicular laws of the state) one discovers that bicycles are considered to be vehicles and subject to all of the laws of the state except where they cannot be applicable. However, this just makes the laws themselves inconsistent, as small children can ride bicycles on c

      --
      Even when the experts all agree, they may well be mistaken. --- Bertrand Russell.
    96. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem I have with bike riders is the issue I encounter from time to time on my commute to/from work by a university where there is a divided road, that has 2 lanes per direction, and a separate bike trail parallel to the road. However, there are often absolutely no bicycles on the bike trial, instead they are in the middle lanes of the road :/

    97. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by cyber-vandal · · Score: 1

      Cyclists are allowed to cycle the wrong way up one way streets in the Netherlands?

    98. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by naris · · Score: 1

      Yes, cyclists have the right to share the road, perhaps "blocking" a lane. However, those in my area that block the entire multi-lane road during rush hour are way beyond the pale!

    99. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bikes are legal on most Interstate miles. Within cities and where shoulders are narrow due to land expense and where alternative paths are built by modern funding requirements, they are sometimes restricted with signs that say motorized vehicles only for small stretches and bicycles and pedestrians must exit signs at the start of such regions.

    100. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by rgbatduke · · Score: 1

      No snakes have been injured in my bike encounters so far as I've been able to avoid them, but I do ride over a bridge over a wetlands creek and NC is lousy with copperheads and all of the North American poisonous snakes have sustained populations in the state, including coral snakes. I've driven around live copperheads (and one unidentified snake that could have been a water moccasin but I didn't stop to look carefully) several times, so I haven't been injured yet either, as you can pretty easily throw them up into your pedals or worse, into your wheels and thence onto your legs in a highly irritated mood from what I understand from reading bike forums. It sounds like actual bites of humans as opposed to tires are pretty rare, though.

      The biggest copperhead I've ever seen living or dead was one roughly four feet long that had been run over by a car and was lying dead right in the lane I was riding to work in, right on the edge of Duke's campus and across from a forested swamp. You could see the crushed part where the tire had gone over it very clearly. The snake itself was as thick as my calf, and the head was easily the size of my clenched fist, maybe 3.5" or 4" wide. I've kicked myself for years for not picking up the body and putting the head out on an anthill to clean off the undamaged skull -- it would have been spectacular -- but it was literally too big to easily carry on my bike and I was on my way in to teach a class and had nowhere to put the corpse in the meantime. It was pretty close to the upper limit on the size of Southern Copperheads (reported to be 53"). But needless to say, since that day I watch CAREFULLY when I ride in the gutter or next to the shoulder in wooded or swampy areas (I ride through Duke Forest and wetlands when I ride into Duke from my house). Copperheads in particular are crepuscular hunters and lie on the edge of paved roads in the evening or early morning for the warmth and as pit vipers, they strike at anything warm and possibly edible in the twilight. They aren't particularly venomous and they often won't even treat a bite for anything but tetanus, but a large snake like that can pump a lot of venom into you if it is annoyed because you step on it or ride over it. This thing had enormous venom glands pooching out its triangular-shaped head.

      rgb

      --
      Even when the experts all agree, they may well be mistaken. --- Bertrand Russell.
    101. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      Then you get over enough that other vehicles can safely pass you. Typical lanes are 10 feet wide, cars/trucks are rarely more than 7 feet wide. So there's a good 3 feet that can be shared. As far as CA roads, I ride the canyons quite a bit on my motorcycle (to and from work every day), and the number of cars that do not get over are a tenth of the number of bikes. I don't know how many times I come across three or four bikers riding abreast, and refusing to get over. Cars tend to get over as early as possible, for the most part.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    102. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Of course. Because cyclists don't use the walkways.

    103. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by davesbizarre · · Score: 1

      Easy there, big fella. Guess what? If the lane is not wide enough for a car to pass me with (in FL) a three foot gap, then, yes, I do have the right to "block" a full lane of traffic (hey, guess what else? I am traffic, so I'm not blocking it; I'm just slowing it). I also have the responsibility to signal my turns, stop for red lights (and in most states, stop signs; Google "Idaho stop"), and stay within the speed limit.

      I don't know about your experience on the roads, but I see a far higher percentage of cars than bikes failing to signal and exceeding the speed limit, and about the same percentage rolling stop signs.

      Sounds to me like you're just giving us more reasons to require cyclists to be licensed and insured. If you're using public roadways as traffic, then you should be held to ALL the same standards, restrictions and requirements as motorists.

    104. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know what else we often find in dedicated bike lanes? Runners! Even though there is already a dedicated path for pedestrians, called a sidewalk, these people still choose to run in the street, often in the bike lane if there is one. So they force cyclists to veer into the car lane just to avoid them.

    105. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      Depends on the state. In my state, cyclists are required to keep as far right as possible. Not that I bike on roads, because I'm neither suicidal, nor fond of changing my tires mid-ride.

    106. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by mattrope · · Score: 1

      Actual laws vary from state to state, but some states (like California) actually suggest riding closer to the center of the lane when there isn't a separate bicycle lane and the traffic lane isn't wide enough for a car to safely pass. From the California DMV website:

      Many roads do not have designated bicycle traffic lanes, so bicyclists share the traffic lane to the left of the white line. If there is no shoulder or bicycle lane and the traffic lane is narrow, ride closer to the center of the lane. This will prevent motorists from passing you when there is not enough room.

      There's more extensive details in the formal traffic code as well. Of course this probably varies from state to state (California law also indicates that a car can only pass a bicycle if it can give three feet of room, so "enough room" is at least well-defined); don't assume the same expectations applies elsewhere without checking first.

      I do agree that there are a lot of idiots on bikes out there doing really stupid/dangerous things (biking the wrong direction in bike lanes, biking at night without lights, etc.) and a surprising amount of the time it's because they never bothered to learn the part of the traffic code that deals with bicycles. We only let people drive cars and motorcycles on roads if they pass a test and earn a license . . . it seems like we really need similar requirements for anyone operating a bicycle on on public roads as well. It certainly wouldn't eliminate all of the idiots who shouldn't be on a bike (just as DMV tests today don't eliminate all of the idiot drivers), but it would hopefully help.

    107. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by Sporkinum · · Score: 1

      True. I rode my bike across the US back in '95 when I got out of the military. There was a 20 mile stretch in Idaho, around Boise, where it was ok to use the interstate. I rode it, but didn't like it.

      --
      "He's lost in a 'floyd hole"
    108. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by KingMotley · · Score: 1

      They are definitely not legal in Illinois or Wisconsin. Motorized vehicles only, and a minimum speed of 45 I believe (and it is illegal to drive on the shoulder).

    109. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by Admiral_Grinder · · Score: 1

      You are forgetting the part where a bike is a meter wide. Hold our your arms to the sides, is that 3 ft with wiggle room or is it more. Don't forget the 3ft min safe passing distance. Minimal width of a lane that can have a bike and a car share it is 14ft.

    110. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      and Lawyers buying $3-5k bikes they have no business riding. If you're into road biking you know about this and if you're at the lower end of the economic spectrum they're the bane of your existence. They moved into the sport back in the mid 2005. I was shopping for my first real road bike and the price of a decent carbon fiber frame shot up a grand (Boeing's new planes didn't help either). I ended up with an Aluminum Cevelo (which ironically some old person hit me on and ruined :( ... ). Anyway you've got rich people in OK Shape buying ridiculously fast bikes. I see them all the time at the little charity runs I like to do. If you're smart you steer as clear as you can. They don't have the riding chops to handle the bike they just bought but they're usually in OK enough shape to be dangerous (the fat ones end up on cruisers :P ).

      those would be the guys riding two or more abreast in heavy traffic, I bet. Lycra clad from head to toe.
      see also, guy with the $2k mountain bike who never takes it off the paved trail because it might get damaged

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
    111. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      Yeah, one major part of the problem is that even in supposedly "bike friendly" towns where they have a "bike lane", that lane ranges from 8 inches wide to less than a meter wide. Sometimes several times within a stretch of 1/3 of mile. There is often crap in it -- branches, leaves, rocks, bottles -- or open grates over storm drains. In the summertime south they can even have middling large poisonous snakes in it, especially early morning or late evening.

      I'd love to ride my bike to work, and sometimes do in spite of the fact that the "bike lanes" I ride in have all of the features on the list above -- averaging around 18 inches in width (but actually disappearing altogether without warning as the road passes under an overpass where the pylons come down right on the edge of the road so there isn't any shoulder either). I've been blown past by full-scale dump trucks going 55+ mph and missing me by whole feet.

      I lived in Durham for decades without hearing of a single bike fatality and few accidents. In the last few years, friends of mine have been killed or been dumped in the ICU for weeks, all because of precisely the conditions you list above -- you're damned if you ride in the lane because it provides the illusion of having enough room but when it is 8" wide, it doesn't, and you're damned if you ride out in the lane because there are folks on the road you don't think you should be there or are drunk and are driving massive vehicles at unsafe speeds even before you show up in their sights.

      Personally, I think that if official policy is "riding bikes is good, reduces energy consumption, promotes good cardiovascular health" then government needs to make a serious commitment to making safe bikeways. In my opinion, that means unobstructed, clean bike lanes at least 1 meter wide NOT including gutter/grate or curb if present, and not borrowing from the road shoulder. It also means providing protected dedicated function bikeways that parallel things like 4 to 6 lane roads where biking will NEVER be safe, so you aren't forced to ride on roads that are dangerous to cars, let alone bikes, to get from point A to point B.

      Finally, yeah, it wouldn't be crazy to license bike riders who plan to ride on non-neighborhood streets, even if it is a one time license that you get after you prove you understand the rules of the road and how they practically pertain to bikes. Accidents are often caused by bikers, not just by car or truck or motorcycle drivers. I've watched people biking down the road on the wrong side, thinking that they are some sort of pedestrian.

      rgb

      or: the bike lane that's between the parked cars on the curb and the driving lanes, so you get the benefit of the people abruptly pulling out into traffic as you come by as well as the ones opening their door in your face.

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
    112. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      if you're riding on street where the cars regularly travel at 50+mph, and there's a convenient sidewalk or bike path alongside the road, however winding, use the sidewalk or bike path.

      And if I'm walking on it (what kind of idiot would walk on a sidewalk?) with my kids and we have our backs to you just feel free to shoot the gap and if you misjudge it and knock my five year old flat on his face feel free to yell at him because he didn't walk in a straight line. And then when I yell at *you* call the police and accuse me of assault.

      that's where everything gets moved down one notch, so to speak. on the road, bike is to car, as on the sidewalk pedestrian is to bike. i.e. the guy with the most momentum is ethically responsible for making every possible effort to avoid collision.

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
    113. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by Cochonou · · Score: 1

      Actually, yes. One way streets except for bicycles are more and more common in the Netherlands and other European countries.

      See for instance here, here or here.

    114. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by Cochonou · · Score: 1

      Staying on the side is not a good idea on a roundabout.

    115. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by kyrsjo · · Score: 1

      And it might still be an improvement, at least for the older generation...

    116. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by pipedwho · · Score: 1

      No, because the hospital admission rate shows that pedestrian / cyclist collisions on the sidewalk is less likely than each of the other three - AND - that of those, it's usually a kid (young enough to be allowed on the sidewalk) on a bicycle that gets hurt.

      As I said, dickheads will be dickheads; which doesn't magically imply that there are no dickhead cyclists. Just that "dickhead+cyclist" is not the greatest pedestrian threat on the sidewalk, and is far below the other three.

      And it also doesn't imply that sidewalking pedestrians / cyclist collisions never happen.

    117. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not in Sacramento. Not only is it legal to ride the bike on the sidewalk, it's legal to leave the scene after the biker mows you down. Walking on the sidewalk in Sactown isn't for the feint of heart.

    118. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by hondo77 · · Score: 1

      It is VERY rare to see a street without shoulders at least 18" wide...

      Honestly, it's not a rare as you think. Having written that, though, I do try to avoid those places when cycling. Not always possible, though.

      --
      I live ze unknown. I love ze unknown. I am ze unknown.
    119. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by hondo77 · · Score: 1

      Bikes, like cars, are not required to pull off the road. They're required to pull into turnout lanes on a two-lane road (though bikes, it could be argued, should move into a paved shoulder if it's safe) when they can. Not the same as pulling off the road.

      --
      I live ze unknown. I love ze unknown. I am ze unknown.
    120. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by hondo77 · · Score: 1

      What world do you live in where somebody in okay shape gets ridiculously fast by buying an expensive bike?

      --
      I live ze unknown. I love ze unknown. I am ze unknown.
    121. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by hawkinspeter · · Score: 1

      Are you sure about that? I just googled for the law and all I could find was a proposed bill by Michael Baumgartner. There looks to be a law for obeying minimum speeds where there are minimum speed limit signs erected, but even then there's an exception for safety reasons, so I expect a cyclist could claim that it would be unsafe for them to pedal at e.g. 50mph.

      It sounds odd to me that such a law would be deemed necessary.

      --
      You're a temporary arrangement of matter sliding towards oblivion in a cold, uncaring universe
    122. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Easy there, big fella. Guess what? If the lane is not wide enough for a car to pass me with (in FL) a three foot gap, then, yes, I do have the right to "block" a full lane of traffic (hey, guess what else? I am traffic, so I'm not blocking it; I'm just slowing it)

      When does kidnapping become ok?

      If you steal ten minutes of somebody's life by holding them at gunpoint, is that any different from stealing the same amount of time by riding a slow vehicle in traffic and refusing to let people pass? Do we consider one kidnapping and the other somehow different?

      How long a portion of somebody's life can you steal before it becomes a problem?

    123. Re:Naw, it's Doctors by LynnwoodRooster · · Score: 1

      What bike is 1 meter wide? Seriously - what bike? I have a full size cruiser motorcycle with 30 liter sidecases, and it's 0.9 meters wide - and that's considerably wider than any bicycle I've seen.

      --
      Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
    124. Re: Naw, it's Doctors by bferrell · · Score: 1

      exactly!

  16. Answer is in first sentence! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There you have it: people are strapping on helmets.
    There have been some studies linking the rise of helmet use (or its mandatory character) to higher accident rates. Presumably because people feel safer wearing a helmet and don't pay enough attention to their environment any more.

    1. Re:Answer is in first sentence! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or maybe drivers believe that a little plastic helmet is some kind of Full Body Protection Shield and drive closer to cyclists thinking that they couldn't possibly be harmed
      Wearing a helmet puts cyclists at risk, suggests research

  17. Almost as if by ArchieBunker · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Cyclists shouldn't be sharing the road with two ton steel boxes. Yeah yeah I know you have the same rights as cars but get real. From a physics standpoint you'll always lose. Cycling on roads is a death wish.

    --
    Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
    1. Re:Almost as if by umafuckit · · Score: 2

      Cyclists shouldn't be sharing the road with two ton steel boxes. Yeah yeah I know you have the same rights as cars but get real. From a physics standpoint you'll always lose. Cycling on roads is a death wish.

      It's really not as dangerous as you seem to think.

    2. Re:Almost as if by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If there isn't a dedicated cycling path, what's the alternative? Weaving around pedestrians on the sidewalk?

    3. Re:Almost as if by ArchieBunker · · Score: 0

      Driving a car is the alternative. Streets were designed for cars and sidewalks were designed for pedestrians. Sorry if this doesn't fit your lifestyle.

      --
      Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
    4. Re:Almost as if by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Nope, other way around. Paved roads were lobbied for by bicyclists. Automobiles were invented a few decades later.

    5. Re:Almost as if by thinkwaitfast · · Score: 1

      My biggest bike injury was on a bike path when the school decided to place an 8" barricade in the center of the path in a dark spot. Fortunately I was wearing sacrificial backpack.

    6. Re:Almost as if by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      It depends on the roadway really. If it's 50-60 mph traffic take the sidewalk. Seriously, it is better to break the law than to die.

    7. Re:Almost as if by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cyclists shouldn't be sharing the road with two ton steel boxes. Yeah yeah I know you have the same rights as cars but get real. From a physics standpoint you'll always lose. Cycling on roads is a death wish.

      right, those motorists should get some dedicated lanes and leave everything else to the other users of the road.

    8. Re:Almost as if by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Driving a car is the alternative. Streets were designed for cars and sidewalks were designed for pedestrians. Sorry if this doesn't fit your lifestyle.

      America, the land of the free, if you own a car.
      I'm so glad I don't live there and I don't need to live there.

    9. Re:Almost as if by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except it really is. 3 near-death experiences in 3 months, last time I tried to bike to work every non-rainy day in the summer. There is no way I will ever be on the same roads as SUVs. If we're not going to build bike paths, then we need to ban SUVs. Or make killing someone while driving an SUV carry a mandatory penalty of life without parole. Maybe that'll get Sally-Soccer-Mom and Big-Shot-Bill to stop fucking texting while they drive their road tanks.

    10. Re:Almost as if by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From a physics standpoint you'll always lose.

      http://i.imgur.com/PBpiGK0.jpg

      Car from China. Bike from Germany.

    11. Re:Almost as if by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Depends on the city. Most have clearly-laid out rules about when and where cyclists are allowed to bike. Unfortunately, the DMV doesn't do anything to insure drivers understand those rules, much less their part in keeping everyone safe. It's also not just a cyclist problem. There's a reason you see all those bumper stickers saying "watch for motorcycles" and stuff. People in cars, trucks, and SUV's just do a piss poor job of paying attention to anything or anyone while driving.

    12. Re:Almost as if by Ichijo · · Score: 1

      And two ton steel boxes shouldn't be sharing the road with 40 ton steel boxes.

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    13. Re:Almost as if by Ichijo · · Score: 1

      Streets were designed for cars

      No, streets were retrofitted for cars. We had streets long before we had cars, silly!

      --
      Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
    14. Re:Almost as if by Calydor · · Score: 1

      There is a strange kind of awesome to that picture.

      --
      -=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
    15. Re:Almost as if by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    16. Re:Almost as if by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It depends. If it's a 50 mph, limited access roadway, it's much safer than a 35mph urban thoroughfare with frequent retail driveways and on-street parking. Being hit by a car overtaking you from behind isn't nearly as likely as people think, while being hit by a car diving into a parking lot trying to beat the next surge of cars is much more likely. The so called "Left Hook" and "Right Hook" accidents are much more common.

    17. Re:Almost as if by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      they should be able to share some of those huge sidewalks with the people walking on them but the problem with bikes is 90percent of bikers cannot perform a single move on those things just the basic pedaling, they literally are both bad bikers AND bad drivers, if they are on the road they dont know how it works, and they cannot control the bike enough so they can avoid the road if they need it

      they are literally a danger to themselves. If you ride a bike you should at least know how to get over a curb or off a curb without having to dismount, if you cant handle that you should not be in traffic. oh, and Those shitty sundaydriver bikes with shitty handling and no gears do not belong on the road

    18. Re:Almost as if by avandesande · · Score: 1

      Way too many 'ghost bikes' out where I live. Fortunately we have endless miles of XC off road trails in my area so I don't need to ride on the road any more.

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
    19. Re:Almost as if by harshath.jr · · Score: 1
      Almost as if this post is making my point by satirically taking the opposite stance.

      Cyclists shouldn't be sharing the road with two ton steel boxes. Yeah yeah I know you have the same rights as cars but get real. From a physics standpoint you'll always lose. Cycling on roads is a death wish.

      Obviously cyclists have the same rights to getting around as cars do, get real - they're not the same from a physics standpoint. And as long as they're treated like being the same, cycling will continue to be a risky endeavor. However, treating them differently (separate rights of way/lanes, different rules, bespoke signage etc) will be the first step towards a safer cycling (and driving) experience.

    20. Re:Almost as if by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      It depends on the roadway really. If it's 50-60 mph traffic take the sidewalk. Seriously, it is better to break the law than to die.

      Indeed. My bicycle commuting days were in the city core, where the traffic would be pretty slow at best. Out in suburbia, I'm too terrified to ride.

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
    21. Re:Almost as if by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I largely agree. I live in the midwest though, so in my (relatively unpopulated) area there aren't a lot of designated bike paths. I honestly think this is one of the reasons "gravel biking" (basically riding on unpaved roads in the rural areas) has taken off a little bit. Where I live, on most rural roads you can see and hear a car hundreds of yards away, and the traffic is so diffuse its relatively painless to make a conscious effort to avoid cars when they do appear.

    22. Re:Almost as if by umafuckit · · Score: 1

      Except it really is. 3 near-death experiences in 3 months, last time I tried to bike to work every non-rainy day in the summer. There is no way I will ever be on the same roads as SUVs. If we're not going to build bike paths, then we need to ban SUVs. Or make killing someone while driving an SUV carry a mandatory penalty of life without parole. Maybe that'll get Sally-Soccer-Mom and Big-Shot-Bill to stop fucking texting while they drive their road tanks.

      Anecdote != evidence and you can get killed quite successfully by a mini on the roads. It doesn't require an SUV, all it requires is an inattentive or drunk driver. I have a friend who was killed on hist bike this way in upstate NY. That still doesn't make me consider the activity to be dangerous.

  18. Simple Minds by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Too many cars on the roads. Bad roads. Bad drivers. 2 tons versus 2 stones. Which wins? I let the ER staff tell you.

    And don't you forget about me.

  19. get a lid, dumbass!! by iggymanz · · Score: 1

    two-thirds of fatalities are of those with no helmets.

    http://www.latimes.com/busines...

  20. Two factors I don't see mentioned: by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 0

    1) Fraction of the population bicycling. The stats (in the summary) were expressed as a fraction of population in general, though it was also mentioned that, post the Lance Armstrong publicity, more people were cycling.

    2) New populations of drivers with different driving styles. Back in the mid-20th century I noticed that driving styles in several regions of the US were substantially different. But (with the possible exception of how traffic lights were treated in Boston) both I and others have noted they are nowhere NEAR as different as all of them are from the style(s) of the influx of drivers from Mexico and other countries from south of the border.

    This is especially an issue with the undocumented, who often don't have licenses, insurance, or US driver's training, and have a strong incentive to avoid police involvement, which may lead to leaving the scene rather than calling for medical assistance for a victim.

    I would be interested in seeing stats on vehicle/bicycle accidents broken down by country of origin and immigration status of the driver (though I doubt the media would publish the results of such a study even if it were done.)

    As for the progressively higher fatality rate with older cyclists who have gotten into an accident, that's not surprising at all. Older bodies are more fragile, injury-prone, and heal less readily.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  21. People are biking in stupider places by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

    As people take up longer and longer rides, that means more and more of them biking on roads that have no shoulders, narrow lanes and people driving pretty fast... I've seen this myself over the years, side roads I like to drive on because they are scenic also attract more and more bikers. But eventually probability will catch up wit the bikers on this road - either the biker will swerve to avoid some part of a poorly maintained edge, or a car will drift over to try and escape a large truck coming the other way, and the biker will lose - right or wrong, it doesn't really matter if you are dead now does it?

    The thing I like about biking is how much control you have over risk. But some people do not exercise that control intelligently.

    I also think bike helmets may have something to do with this as well, as wearing helmets leads some people into thinking they are safer than they really are.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:People are biking in stupider places by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When I am in such a dangerous road I just try to be more visible by staying more far from the edge. This way cars take more precautions to overtake and I don't go in the low quality part of the road. If this means to stay in the middle of the street, I don't care. I have the same right to use the road as any other road user. If this slows down some of the traffic, the road should be fixed.
      On the other hand a LOT of times I have to wait for cars that cannot pass decently fast an intersections, because they are BULKY and a car take the space of 6 bicycles. In the same way, I think the road should be fixed to allows faster users (bicycles) to pass.

    2. Re:People are biking in stupider places by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 2

      I live in a rather scenic, semi-rural area that sees a lot of bicyclists touring for fun and/or exercise - especially on weekends.

      I have posted some rants against bicyclist behavior in this thread... but in the situation you and the parent post describe, the onus is completely on the automobile driver. It drives me nuts on a no-shoulder road when a car passes within a foot or two of a bike just because there is oncoming traffic. What is the driver going to do if the bicyclist wobbles, or worse falls? Whether cars or bikes... you can't operate them under the assumption that nothing unexpected is going to happen.

      If you are behind a bike and oncoming traffic prevents you from passing with a safe margin - SLOW DOWN AND STAY BEHIND THE BIKE until there's room to safely pass. They have as much right to be there as you do.

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    3. Re:People are biking in stupider places by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      While a car should not be passing unsafely, and would definitely be in the wrong to do so, I also think its a dick move for bicyclists to be riding 10 mph on a road where cars are expecting to be able to drive 35 or 45, and you inconveniencing everyone who is stuck behind you.

    4. Re:People are biking in stupider places by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As a cyclist, I come across this every now and then (Usually from taxis, as the bike lanes and taxi lanes where I live regularly share the same space.) The conclusion I have come to is that a lot of drivers seem to forget they have a brake in situations like this - the idea that they can slow down for literally does not occur to us unless we perceive that we are personally in danger. I would love to read more about this - my current theory on the subject is that personal danger triggers our fight or flight response allowing us to react faster, whereas danger to others requires a reasoned response, meaning we react slower (or not at all).

    5. Re:People are biking in stupider places by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What is the driver going to do if the bicyclist wobbles

      Or gets blown sideways by a 30 mph crosswind?

      I found it surprising just how much I get tossed around on my bike with a good crosswind. I'm a pretty solid straight-line cyclist but a strong crosswind gust will still throw me sideways a good 6".

  22. adults across the U.S. are strapping on helmets by frovingslosh · · Score: 1

    ...more adults across the U.S. are strapping on helmets....

    There is your answer right there. These helmets make the riders think they are safe when the evidence indicates they are not. Thinking they are safe makes them careless and so there are more accidents. Clearly we should outlaw helmets. QED

    --
    I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
    1. Re:adults across the U.S. are strapping on helmets by hamster_nz · · Score: 1

      Not so fast... There is research that indicates that people putting helmets on changes driver behaviour.

      http://www.bath.ac.uk/news/art...


      Cyclists who wear protective helmets are more likely to be struck by passing vehicles, new research suggests.

      Drivers pass closer when overtaking cyclists wearing helmets than when overtaking bare-headed cyclists, increasing the risk of a collision, the research has found.

      Dr Ian Walker, a traffic psychologist from the University of Bath, used a bicycle fitted with a computer and an ultrasonic distance sensor to record data from over 2,500 overtaking motorists in Salisbury and Bristol.

      Dr Walker, who was struck by a bus and a truck in the course of the experiment, spent half the time wearing a cycle helmet and half the time bare-headed. He was wearing the helmet both times he was struck.

      He found that drivers were as much as twice as likely to get particularly close to the bicycle when he was wearing the helmet.

      Across the board, drivers passed an average of 8.5 cm (3 1/3 inches) closer with the helmet than without

      The research has been accepted for publication in the journal Accident Analysis & Prevention.

  23. I always ride on the sidewalk by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't care if it's against the rules... the fine is like $100 and I've never been fined.

  24. As someone who has been hit by cars.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Anecdotal example here. I've been hit by cars 3 times when I had right of way and the car was clearly in error. From several other close calls I can confirm that from my experience Automobiles who arent paying attention are the cause of the vast majority of these deaths. Either something fundamentally needs to change in the effort people put into paying attention while they drive, or a lot more bike lanes/paths need to be built. Otherwise as cycling continues to become more popular these deaths will continue to rise.

    1. Re:As someone who has been hit by cars.. by amiga3D · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If I had been hit 3 times by cars I know I'd have to take a look at what I was doing wrong. It might be their fault as you say but most cyclists seem to manage to wobble down the road without getting run over repeatedly. Not to mention that sooner or later it's going to be fatal. Think about it.

    2. Re:As someone who has been hit by cars.. by Runaway1956 · · Score: 1

      This has been researched, over and over - more with motorcycles than with bicycles. When motorists are looking about, they are looking for threats to themselves. A big truck is a threat to a 1500 pound car. A small truck is a lesser threat to that car. Another car is even less of a threat, but still a deadly threat. A motorcycle is little threat to the driver of that 1500 pound car, so he safely ignores it. And, you people on bicycles are no threat at all. You're on your own, Pal, devil take the hindmost and all that.

      The only way to change a cager's pespective, is to put his ass on two wheels for awhile. Only then does he actually become aware of cyclists, whether motorized or not.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    3. Re:As someone who has been hit by cars.. by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 3, Informative

      I have also been hit three times. One was a driver making an oncoming left turn into me, one passing right turn, and one with me stopped and a driver somehow managed to crush by rear wheel. Walked away from all three, I think the only one I had a helmet on was the last one. Last incident was 1998. I had another 5 years riding largely with the same risks (but with a helmet), but the last 10 years I have been much more conservative.

      Everything we do has risks, some which can be controlled and some that can't. Avoiding road rage neighborhoods is important for safety (as is calling the cops when you experience road rage in these neighborhoods). Avoiding a peleton with inexperienced cyclists is another biggie. One of my theories though is that the weight-reduction strategies has made bike components more prone to failure when not properly maintained.

      Daily commuter, but not a MAMiL.

    4. Re:As someone who has been hit by cars.. by funwithBSD · · Score: 1

      Sadly, EVERYTHING is threat to cyclists, even pedestrians and pets.

      We are the ones with a metal tube pointed at our nuts.

      --
      Never answer an anonymous letter. - Yogi Berra
    5. Re:As someone who has been hit by cars.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep, I really think as part of the drivers license (which bikers should need to) you should be required to drive a school bus, pull a trailer and a ride motorcycle. And behind the wheel testing should be something done about once a decade, not once in your life....it could probably be computer simulated.

    6. Re:As someone who has been hit by cars.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you've been hit 3 times already, odds are you'll be hit a 4th time. why take that risk?

      Too many cyclists carry the attitude that they have the "right" to ride safely alongside cars, ignoring the fact that traffic accidents are going to happen, and an accident on a bicycle spells certain injury. A typical car accident leaves you with a few thousand dollars in vehicle damage. A typical accident on a bicycle spills blood and leaves you with scars, if you're lucky.

    7. Re:As someone who has been hit by cars.. by amiga3D · · Score: 1

      The thing is accidents happen. Even people trying to be attentive occasionally miss a bike in a blind spot. As much as I like to think I'm perfect I've been guilty myself. Fortunately when I checked my mirror and looked back to my right quarter and somehow missed the big ass Harley in my blind spot and started to change lanes I heard him just after I flipped on the blinker. I looked again and saw him as he took evasive action. I never left my lane but I scared the shit out of him. He came by and flipped me off and I just waved at him. I think those loud pipes save a lot of lives.

    8. Re:As someone who has been hit by cars.. by Mariner28 · · Score: 1

      If I had been hit 3 times by cars I know I'd have to take a look at what I was doing wrong. It might be their fault as you say but most cyclists seem to manage to wobble down the road without getting run over repeatedly. Not to mention that sooner or later it's going to be fatal. Think about it.

      Don't be a dick. I can empathize with the AC you responded to. I once had an idiot driver actually lock eyes with me while I was riding down a main street, and yet he proceeded to pull out in front of me, essentially running (not fully stopping at) a stop sign, rolling, apparently thinking that cyclists have no rights over a car. I didn't have room to swerve to the left to avoid him, as there was a car on my left. I went over his hood and somehow managed to land on my feet. I would have ripped his head off right there when he claimed he didn't see me, but he hopped back into his car and fled the scene. My bike thankfully wasn't heavily damaged.

      . Another time, while riding down a two-lane highway with my wife right in front of me, we had a driver blast by (we later found out he was drunk - and fleeing the cops) actually clipping my pedal. How I didn't go down from the glancing blow and the wind I'll never know. One more inch to the right and I would have been killed. I later found out from the cops he was clocked doing 85mph down that stretch of 55mph highway. He apparently hit another car earlier. He spent time in jail for that one.

      Most serious adult cyclists do in fact have a better understanding of traffic laws than the average driver. They have to - or else them become victims of drivers with the situational awareness of a rock. Unfortunately natural selection is non-discriminating.

      --
      "A little misunderstanding? Galileo and the Pope had a little misunderstanding."
    9. Re:As someone who has been hit by cars.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      so, while riding a bike, wearing a shirt saying "I have a gun" should make your ride safer! :D

    10. Re:As someone who has been hit by cars.. by Admiral_Grinder · · Score: 1

      So what was I doing wrong:

      1st time I was almost hit by a car was when one pulled out on the street from a driveway going forward. They stopped before the street. I was lite up with a front, rear, and side lights. I was also wearing my orange vest as well. If I was on the sidewalk, I would have been creamed.

      2nd time I was hit by a car when I was crossing in the crosswalk legally (escorting my kids on their bikes). The guy stopped some distance from the line yet still managed to roll into my side trying to do a right on red.

      3rd time I was almost hit by a left turner. I slammed on my brakes, but if they wasn't going fast enough, I would have been in the door. I was coming down a hill with lite traffic. All my lights on, my orange vest, and just before the sun peaked above the horizon.

      That doesn't mention the few dozen other times where drivers violate my kids and I right of way when crossing streets.

    11. Re:As someone who has been hit by cars.. by ahodgson · · Score: 1

      Left turners hit motorcyclists all the time too. You just have to assume that a certain percentage of people literally can't see you unless you're in a car.

    12. Re:As someone who has been hit by cars.. by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      The only way to change a cager's pespective, is to put his ass on two wheels for awhile. Only then does he actually become aware of cyclists, whether motorized or not.

      As someone who has long advocated that driving licenses should be issued for 5 or 10 years and then revoked, to only be regained after re-passing the full driving test, I have also long advocated that part of the driving test MUST be several hours (preferably several days, but I'd settle for several 10s of miles in urban traffic, validated by a GPS tracker) on a bike.

      Fucking cagers are a lethal menace to cyclists ; when I drive, I drive thinking like a cyclist. I've been bimbling along at 15mph, waiting for an opportunity to safely overtake a cyclist and had a fucking idiot cager overtake me in the face of oncoming traffic, then almost knock the cyclist off as the cager swerved in front of me.

      I'm really going to have to get a dash cam. We could have lost that idiot his licence.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  25. Lying with statistics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you want a meaningful statistic about the dangers of cycling, the injuries and deaths per 100000 people are at best a bad choice, but more likely it's lying with statistics. Obviously, if more people ride bikes, more cyclists will get into accidents. What you want to know is if the increase is lower or higher than the increase in the number of cyclists (or the miles on a bicycle). In many countries, more cycling leads to more safety for the individual cyclist, because motorists become more aware of cyclists and their typical behavior, and because more infrastructure is built for cyclists or at least with cyclists in mind.

  26. get a brain, dumbass!! by frovingslosh · · Score: 1

    That is completely meaningless, dumbass. The actual statistic is that a third of the fatalities are on riders wearing helmets, but upwards of ninety percent of bike riders are not wearing helmets. So if helmets were not a factor you would expect only about a tenth of the riders to be wearing helmets and if they helped at all then even lower, Clearly the helmets are causing problems, not preventing them.

    --
    I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
    1. Re:get a brain, dumbass!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is completely meaningless, dumbass. The actual statistic is that a third of the fatalities are on riders wearing helmets, but upwards of ninety percent of bike riders are not wearing helmets. So if helmets were not a factor you would expect only about a tenth of the riders to be wearing helmets and if they helped at all then even lower, Clearly the helmets are causing problems, not preventing them.

      Any bicycle rider that does not wear a helmet is a dumbass. Fact.

  27. Re:If you ride a bikeGet off the road! by BoRegardless · · Score: 1

    I just assume vehicles are going to run me down. I never trust any vehicle with a drive holding a cell phone. I've seen too many people pull right out in front of me with a cellphone and I'm stopped within 3 feet of the car watching them go in front of me obliviously.

    Never ride on PCH in California if you have any grey matter left.

    Bike trails are the only half way safe method of biking.

    Fast road bikes with skinny tires are simply asking for problems from fragile tires to higher speeds. I don't do that.

    I do agree with the author that Lance Armstrong influenced people to do aggressive cycling without thinking that Lance only races with other bicyclists going the same direction. I've done aggressive riding and gone down a couple times, but never had a serious injury beyond a scrape. That seriously altered my attitude.

  28. Re: adults across the U.S. are strapping on helmet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    2/3 of cycling deaths are riders not wearing helmets.

    7/9 of cycling deaths caused by impact with motor vehicle.

  29. Re:Rarely ... by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

    ... do I ever see ANYBODY display even the slightest bit of situational awareness..

    Fixed that for you. To be fair, I've never seen a Google car around here. They may be the most advanced life form on the highway at present.

    --
    Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
  30. Is this really what those articles are saying? by CptJeanLuc · · Score: 1

    Browsing the articles, it is not entirely clear what numbers are changing. Is this post really about "as more people use bikes, more people have accidents and die on bikes"? If so ... well, duh ... that is to be expected. If more inexperienced bikers are suddenly on the road, well ... then a higher accident rate among that group is also to be expected. Not sure where the news is here.

    I remember reading some articles about how the push for wearing helmets on bikes, actually reduces overall health benefits as fewer people choose to do biking because they do not like the helmet - as on average the health benefits of physical exercise will outweigh the few additional injuries and fatalities, even without helmets. Just saying. Don't remember the source, this was a while ago.

    In my country biking has gained popularity, and it is really a pain how some small winding roads get cluttered with cyclists during summer - even worse if you encounter a "train" of 20-30 cyclists which is impossible to pass. I hate the "everyone has equal rights to the road" argument, and how politicians keep always catering to cyclists. Roads are a shared resource, and I would say that getting cars where they need to go, should be the main priority. The one biker's supposed right to do whetever he wants wherever he wants, should be balanced against the need of the people in the seven cars behind him to get where they are going on time, and not having to add 10 minutes buffer.

    Listening to radio today some local politicians were proposing that bikers should get a general right of way in order to reduce biking accidents. Yes, because that should really reduce accidents and friction in traffic, drivers suddenly now having to pay attention both left and right, reverting a habit which has been ingrained for 10s of years.

  31. Hit by Cars by r-diddly · · Score: 1

    Most cyclist fatalities are from being hit by cars. (Not from just falling off their bikes.)
    The disproportionate toll on older people is because their connective tissue & bones are less able to withstand being hit by a car.
    The period 1998-2013 is a time during which use of distracting-ass mobile phones became popular among drivers who should be concentrating on not hitting people with cars.

  32. a good start by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    but we drivers need to try harder to exterminate all cyclists... it can happen in our lifetime

  33. Fucking Cell Phones by MarkvW · · Score: 1

    I wonder how much of the spike can be attributed to the cell phone killers.

    1. Re:Fucking Cell Phones by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You mean the idots using Cells phones on their bikes? Texas has cornered the market on them. No hands free or Helmets required here..

  34. As expected, the PC crowd modded it down. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

    I would be interested in seeing stats on vehicle/bicycle accidents broken down by country of origin and immigration status of the driver (though I doubt the media would publish the results of such a study even if it were done.)

    I also expected the politically-correct volunteer censors to mod down the posting - and my expectations have been met. In 30 minutes it's received at least one down-mod (or one more down- the up-mods).

    One of the downsides to Slashdot's mod system is that it can be abused to create an echo-chamber by

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    1. Re:As expected, the PC crowd modded it down. by emj · · Score: 1

      One of the downsides to Slashdot's mod system is that it can be abused to create an echo-chamber by

      Just because no one agrees with you doesn't mean it's an echo chamber.

      When you turn you eyes to minorities and blame all ills on them you are often blinded from the wrongs done by the vast majority.

    2. Re:As expected, the PC crowd modded it down. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, when you turn your eyes away from any person or group and give them no penalty when they break the law, they have no incentive to follow the law, and can be expected to break it when this is to their advantage. This is true for rich elites, operators of small businesses, ethnic or racial groups, members of religions (or lack thereof), adherents to political ideologies, members of particular gangs, clubs, or secret societies, or even the general population.

      And when you're hunting for causes of problems or ways to solve them - problems such as "spiking" mortality rates among bicyclists - deliberately ignoring certain groups when looking for a cause that might be fixed means that, if there is a cause in something specific to one of those groups, you don't find it and thus can't fix it.

      Ignoring the possibility, rather than researching it, could be not just politically-correct avoidance of bad feelings, but negligent homicide.

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  35. Re: adults across the U.S. are strapping on helmet by frovingslosh · · Score: 1

    Your 2/3 number is absolutely meaningless without numbers on how many are wearing helmets and how many are not, once you see those numbers if you have any understanding of math an no blinding biases you will see that helmets have a negative effect.

    The 7/9 number is meaningless. Did you think that some people thought deaths were caused by impacts with cotton balls or bunny rabbits? It has absolutely nothing to do with my comment.

    --
    I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
  36. Serious lack of factor analysis here... by jpellino · · Score: 1

    There weren't cell phones in every car in 98-99. That has changed. Younger riders have been going to MTB for a good 20 years, whereas older riders are *still* on the road bikes of their younger days, bikes whose demise had been predicted more frequently than Dvorak with Apple.

    --
    "Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
  37. Re:If you ride a bikeGet off the road! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    bike trails are safe if vehicles don't drive on them which is not always the case, dumbass

  38. reducing cycling accidents - fix the system by redfood · · Score: 1

    "At the end of the day, reducing cycling accidents may boil down to something simple: Making sure that bikers know the rules of the road — and that drivers know how to deal with bikers."

    No, reducing cycling accidents boils down redesigning roads to make them save for cylclings (and pedestrians). Making sure everyone knows the rules of the road is important but fixing the systemic issues is the real way to address the problem.

  39. Injuries per 100,000 persons NOT cyclists persons by tomxor · · Score: 2

    From their very own reference: https://jama.jamanetwork.com/a...

    Another case of people making non news out of misinterpreting statistics. The statistics are from hospital admissions of cycling related injuries "per 100,000 persons" NOT 100,000 cyclist persons. This is no different to saying roads are getting more dangerous because there are more people driving and thus proportionally more driving injuries, get your base line right.

  40. Poor Lance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Lance Armstrong effect: the mortality rate among cyclists ages 35 to 54 has tripled.

    When it rains, it pours.

  41. I'm one of the statistics by send2cbd · · Score: 1

    Last month, I crashed my bike on the sidewalks of San Jose. No car or peds or other bikes. Just me being an idiot. To make matters worse, no helmet! 3 days in hospital plus 10 staples in the scalp. No major injury. Just rung my bell. The dizziness has finally gone away. I wear a helmet now. Oh, Im 68years old. This is my first bike accident. Hopefully, my last.

    1. Re:I'm one of the statistics by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1

      Glad you're alright, man.

      --

      "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

  42. Car drivers suck + bike riders suck = crash by Lumpy · · Score: 0

    Most car and truck drivers have zero clue how to drive around a bicyclist. couple with that bicyclists being morons and blowing lights, riding down the wrong side of the road, or in general riding stupid and you have what we have today.

    Bicyclists tend to ignore traffic laws, I see FREDS (the trendy ones all wearing spandex and riding $9500 bikes) blowing traffic lights all the time, but the worst is the casual rider that is riding on the sidewalk on the wrong side of the road, they will cross the street and get massacred by the person turning left because they are completely invisible to the car that is turning.

    Car drivers need to be smacked in the face, no you are not important and your non important ass can wait while that bicyclist is in your lane. Boo hoo you big baby that you have to slow down for the bike that has the full right to be there.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  43. Here's my idea by GoodNewsJimDotCom · · Score: 1

    Every year there's more and more drivers on the road. More drivers = more people who can run over a cyclist.

    Just going by observations I did sitting on a porch: It seems like 1/10 people are texting actively at any time. And 1/4 people are on their cell phones. Distracted drivers today are more dangerous than drivers back in the day.

  44. Require a license by mark-t · · Score: 2

    I've come to believe that cyclists should require a license to use public roads, if for no other reason than to ensure that the cyclist is at least aware that they are subject to all of the same laws that cars are, because at least half of the time, it really doesn't seem to me like cyclists have a clue. Make the minimum age on it low enough that it not impractical for kids to ride on the roads (once they are old enough to do it safely), but old enough that you can have some kind of statistical assurance they would be able to do so competently in the first place. Maybe age 12 or something. Before that age, they can only cycle on private property or bicycle paths.

    No offense meant to those who cycle and actually play it by the book, and follow all the rules of the road correctly.... I know that there are a lot of you out there, but there's also one helluvalot of people who cycle who apparently can't be bothered to care. A license would at least ensure a minimum education standard so that the person should know what to do, and would also provide a certain amount of accountability.

    1. Re:Require a license by CanadianMacFan · · Score: 2

      By that logic there should be no bad car drivers on the road since every driver has a license. Most adult cyclists, at least in my city, have a drivers license and so they already know the rules for how they should behave but many are still idiots when they hop on the bike. The rules for bicycles are all included as part of the drivers handbook one studies in order to write the test for their license.

      When I was in grade two or three they had bike safety lessons. I don't know if they still have them but they should.

    2. Re:Require a license by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've come to believe that cyclists should require a license to use public roads, if for no other reason than to ensure that the cyclist is at least aware that they are subject to all of the same laws that cars are, because at least half of the time, it really doesn't seem to me like cyclists have a clue. Make the minimum age on it low enough that it not impractical for kids to ride on the roads (once they are old enough to do it safely), but old enough that you can have some kind of statistical assurance they would be able to do so competently in the first place. Maybe age 12 or something. Before that age, they can only cycle on private property or bicycle paths.

      No offense meant to those who cycle and actually play it by the book, and follow all the rules of the road correctly.... I know that there are a lot of you out there, but there's also one helluvalot of people who cycle who apparently can't be bothered to care. A license would at least ensure a minimum education standard so that the person should know what to do, and would also provide a certain amount of accountability.

      Forget little kids and old people for a minute: How many employed adults do you think ride bikes that don't already have a driver's license? I doubt it is even 1% nationwide.

      I got my license relatively late in life, so I'm not as ignorant nor do I feel as entitled as most others seem to when they habitually risk the lives of themselves and those around them... The issue is car and SUV drivers don't obey the law. Speeding +1mph is violating the law. So is not coming to a COMPLETE stop at stop signs. Ditto for turn signals for even lane changes in most states, much less the minimum distance between vehicles. I have NEVER driven my car a day without seeing the majority of drivers violating at least one of those laws.

      Driving is the most dangerous activity I engage in on even a weekly basis.

    3. Re:Require a license by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, but...

      Licensing doesn't seem to help ensure that car drivers know the rules of the road.

      Driving has always been considered a legal privilege, that's why it's licensed. Bicycling has been more in the category of walking, and has been treated as a right to travel.

    4. Re:Require a license by mark-t · · Score: 1

      many are still idiots when they hop on the bike.

      And *THAT*, which I've emphasized above, is the problem.... one that a cyclist license would at least have a chance at trying to prevent. And to the extent that it didn't stop people from ignoring the rules, it would provide a mechanism for holding them accountable if they are caught.

    5. Re:Require a license by mark-t · · Score: 1

      The number of adult cyclists that have a valid drivers license and have at least at one time known the rules of the road sufficiently well to obtain a license seems immaterial to the number of adult cyclists that apparently have the foggiest idea that the same rules that apply to cars apply to them as well (things like one-way signs, stop signs, red lights.... really basic stuff).

      While a license doesn't ensure they will necessarily follow all of the rules, it assures that they at least know they are expected to follow them, and potentially provides an avenue of holding them accountable when they do not.

    6. Re:Require a license by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      An I've come to the conclusion that drivers should be stripped of their license immediately if they display wilful ignorance or reckless endangerment. If you pass a cyclist with just an inch less than the minimum safety distance, you license's gone for the next month. You take a cyclist's right of way? License gone for a year. If you even so much as touch him, your car gets auctioned off and your license is permanently revoked.

      Better yet, let the proceeds of the auction go towards the injured party. That would significantly improve enforcement.

    7. Re:Require a license by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The majority of cyclist that I see obey the rules of the road. These are the people with higher end bikes, helmets and are usually in shape. Unfortunately these folks are a minority of the number of people on bikes. The number of idiots that ride their single gear cruiser or bmx the wrong way, at night with all dark clothing are mind numbing.

    8. Re:Require a license by CanadianMacFan · · Score: 1

      A license wouldn't solve the problem. People are idiots on bikes because they can be idiots on bikes. There are little perceived consequences for not following the rules of the road so they don't follow them. You see this with cars too. Almost everybody goes 5 to 10 above the speed limit because almost nobody gets a ticket for doing so. There are some places where most people do rolling stops at the stop signs instead of proper stops.

      There's already a mechanism to stop people for ignoring the rules. The same one that would be used if there was a license. The police. Bikes have to follow the rules of the road and if they don't then they get tickets. And I've heard of them getting tickets in my city. But it's just like the bad drivers, the police can't be everywhere and people wouldn't want to pay for enough people so that they would have enough time to hand out traffic tickets.

    9. Re:Require a license by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Enforcement would make an enormous difference, but one big reason that enforcement isn't as strong on cyclists in the first place is because it is generally more work to hold a cyclist accountable for infractions... a license would remedy that because it is, in principle at least. traceable to a particular person who lives at a particular address, just as a drivers license is.

    10. Re:Require a license by hondo77 · · Score: 1

      Following laws is really just a small part of cycling safety. It's the "street smarts" that you develop but which are not taught to you that keep you safe. Keep behind that car on your left as you approach an intersection so he can't give you a right hook. Stay on the left of your bike lane while there a cars parallel parked alongside. Don't go full gas when riding alongside a traffic jam because some bozo may decide to pull in front of you because she feels she deserves a short-cut today. Practice emergency stops so shifting your weight to the back becomes second-nature. Learn to safely look over your shoulder while riding. Things like that are what's really going to keep you safe. I wish places taught that to new riders.

      --
      I live ze unknown. I love ze unknown. I am ze unknown.
    11. Re:Require a license by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pedestrians should also be aware of traffic laws; should pedestrians be required to have a license?

    12. Re:Require a license by CanadianMacFan · · Score: 1

      If a license would make people more accountable and change their habits then we wouldn't need such large penalties for things like drinking and driving, not stopping for a school bus when it's flashing lights are on, or using a cell phone while driving. Ontario just increased the fine for the last one because people were still doing it. They were driving while using a cell phone when there was no fine, when there was a fine, and now when the fine has been increased. But according to your theory most of these people shouldn't be doing it because their licensed.

      A few months back I saw a guy waiting at a red light. He wanted to turn right but he was behind a car that was going straight. Well, he got tired of waiting and drove up on the sidewalk and made his right turn. There weren't any pedestrians there so it was "safe" for him to do it. I think the only reason we see so many idiots on bikes and not on cars is that it's a lot easier to be an idiot on a bike.

  45. Re:Rarely ... by BronsCon · · Score: 1

    Rarely do I ever see a cyclist (or a pedestrian) display even the slightest bit of situational awareness.

    That's because the ones who do go unnoticed. When I'm actively looking for cyclists, they appear to be in the majority.

    --
    APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
  46. I have the evidence by HangingChad · · Score: 1

    I have a video camera on the front fork of my bike and have clear evidence of who's at fault. I have clips of city buses crowding the bike lane, the mirror whizzing by inches from my helmet. Other great shots of cars cutting me off on right turns, including one truck that ran me onto the sidewalk with his trailer, ironically next to a sign that said Right Turns Yield To Bikes In Bike Lane. Even left turns, people who can clearly see me coming, cutting it so close I've had to slide to a stop.

    Mixed in with the idiots are a far larger pool of considerate people. People who insist on waiting for me, even when they have the right of way, cars that cover for me on turns and those who change lanes to give me more space. The considerate and aware people far outnumber the idiots but the problem is it only takes one idiot to kill you.

    In my experience the worst offenders are women. Of the top 10 close calls I've had, 7 were female drivers. Ironically the closest call I've ever had was a police car, typing on his computer and not paying attention. He ran me into the curb and just kept going.

    I've also seen my share of bike riders doing the incredibly stupid. Cutting across turn lanes when the arrow is with the cars, riding the wrong way down sidewalks, ignoring right of way at intersections and at night with no lights. So I understand the frustration the other way.

    When it comes to bikes and pedestrians on roads, especially in big cities, the people designing bike lanes and intersections are people driving to work. In most cases the problem is literally dictating the solution. The other problem are the righteously entitled who scoff at bike riders because they're not paying road taxes. They're the most deliberate when it comes to ceding the very minimum amount of space when moving over. Those are the only ones I'd really like to drag of their car and beat to a pulp.

    --
    That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
    1. Re:I have the evidence by emj · · Score: 1

      In my experience the worst offenders are women. Of the top 10 close calls I've had, 7 were female drivers. Ironically the closest call I've ever had was a police car, typing on his computer and not paying attention. He ran me into the curb and just kept going.

      Anecdotes does not make a truth. When you say this I directly recall two very gruesome women drivers, and forgot about all those men who did worse.

  47. Politicians Made Roads Dangerous For Bikers by BrendaEM · · Score: 0

    It's dangerous to ride a bike in traffic because the lawmakers don't really give a damn about cyclists, and won't until they pay the lawmakers as much as the automakers.

    Cyclists can't even legally take a left hand turn.
    No cyclist or motorist can stop a vehicle fast enough to keep from being doored.
    It's impossible to see what a motorist will do from inside a car because of total internal reflection.
    Cars generally do not have enough visibility to give enough situational awareness.
    I am 49 years old, and never in my life have I heard of the police catching a bicycle thief.

    For every cyclist on the road, there's one less car.

    --
    https://www.youtube.com/c/BrendaEM
    1. Re:Politicians Made Roads Dangerous For Bikers by PPH · · Score: 1

      Cyclists can't even legally take a left hand turn.

      Really? I see them do it all the time. Some of them even manage to do it legally.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  48. How about a bike license. by God+of+Lemmings · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Bikers don't have bike licenses in most places. They aren't taught where to ride, they ignore traffic signals, they don't try to get out of the way when traffic lines up behind them and police officers mostly do not enforce traffic laws when its a bike. They take up half a lane and are moving at a dangerously slow pace compared to motor vehicles. It is similar to when a sailboat is in the way of a freighter, but here the larger and faster vehicle really has no place to go other than to collide or slow down. I would like to expect that they would at least behave as good as a guy on a moped, but this doesn't happen. The laws in my state say that they should be treated the same as a motor vehicle. This is not what happens. At least our state has added some good long distance bike paths and bike overpasses, but these are mostly used by the trendy and health conscious, not for people actually trying to get anywhere.

    --
    Non sequitur: Your facts are uncoordinated.
    1. Re:How about a bike license. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...the larger and faster vehicle really has no place to go other than to collide or slow down.

      Then slow the fuck down.

    2. Re:How about a bike license. by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Then slow the fuck down.

      If you can't operate your bicycle in such a way that it's not an obstruction to traffic, perhaps you're the problem. When I was a young cyclist I made it a point to stay out of the way of cars, because they are heavy and I am squishy. Now I am older and I can afford a car with things like crumple zones, pretensioners, and air bags

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:How about a bike license. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They are not an obstruction to traffic, THEY ARE TRAFFIC.

      If they're going 15mph, you HAVE TO WAIT BY LAW to pass. And you have to pass either in another lane or in some places you must leave a minimum passenger side gap. If you do not BY LAW you must wait.

      If you do not wish to follow the rules of the road and instead wish to ENDANGER the road traffic, you MUST leave your car and NEVER drive again.

    4. Re:How about a bike license. by serviscope_minor · · Score: 2

      Bikers don't have bike licenses in most places.

      Many of them have driver's licenses though.

      They aren't taught where to ride, they ignore traffic signals, they don't try to get out of the way when traffic lines up behind them and police officers mostly do not enforce traffic laws when its a bike.

      Yep and car drivers often ignore parking laws and obscure views at junctions for other drivers, they speed, do not leave safe braking distances, do not leave safe passing distances, ignore right of way especially when the person with right of way is a cyclist fail to indicate, perform illegal U turns and so on and so forth. Basically police offers do not enforce laws when it's a car on the whole.

      They take up half a lane and are moving at a dangerously slow pace compared to motor vehicles.

      Actually in the UK they take up a whole lane if they like and if everyone's going at the same speed as you then it's hardly a dangerously slow pace compared to other vehicles now is it :)

      It is similar to when a sailboat is in the way of a freighter, but here the larger and faster vehicle really has no place to go other than to collide or slow down.

      Sailing vessels always have right of way over powered ones.

      The laws in my state say that they should be treated the same as a motor vehicle.

      Well that's the trouble. If you try to act like a motor vehicle, you'll get subjected to huge amounts of abuse. If the law says one thing but reality dictates another then the law is at fault.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    5. Re:How about a bike license. by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      If you do not wish to follow the rules of the road and instead wish to ENDANGER the road traffic, you MUST leave your car and NEVER drive again.

      If you do not wish to follow the rules of the road and instead wish to ENDANGER the road traffic, you MUST leave your bicycle and NEVER ride again. See what I just did there, asshole? You're the one causing the obstruction. The roads were designed for cars. If you want them redesigned so that cyclists can use them without creating unsafe conditions for everyone, I'm with you. If you just want to be an asshole, hold people up, and create unsafe conditions for everyone, fuck you.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    6. Re:How about a bike license. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Riding at the permitted speed is not obstruction. Speed limit is the "upper" limit. There is no law that requires bicycles to ride at the speed of cars. There ARE however laws requiring you to slow down and pass only when permitted by law, and not to magically imagine there is an exception to the law giving you permission to pass cyclists on the same lane they already occupy.

  49. Gloating much? by tepples · · Score: 1

    So how should people who were born there afford to no longer live there?

    1. Re:Gloating much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Easy, just get really good at a foreign language in your (non-existent) free time, I recommend German. Sell all of your stuff. Get as many credit cards as you can, max them out with cash advances except for the value of a plane ticket. Head to Germany, Sweden or Norway (if you don't move to Germany make sure you modify the language choice above to fit) and hitchhike around until you find a city you like. Find an abandoned building with a thriving squatter community and do your best to blend in. Take cash-payment jobs to make ends meet. For the love of god, don't let the US tax authorities know where you went.

  50. Are you buying? by tepples · · Score: 1

    A car, 50 hours of verifiable supervised driving, insurance, and fuel cost thousands of dollars. Are you buying?

  51. It's all about distracted driving. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    iPhones didn't exist in 1998.. It's pretty simple.

  52. Running a red light out of necessity by tepples · · Score: 1

    When cyclists start obeying the rules of the road

    Do the rules of the road state or imply that an authorized user is entitled to a green light in a reasonable time? If so, then the road itself isn't obeying the rules of the road. Not all U.S. states have a law allowing cyclists to cross against a clearly malfunctioning red traffic signal.

  53. what is being measured here ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    more biking = more biking accidents is kind of obvious and in itself not an evident problem. Also the number of biking related deaths per 100.000 people will increase without really saying anything about the increased/decreased risks for bikers. That makes it a (somewhat) pointless metric.

    The more meaningful metric would be deaths per million miles traveled on a bike, but that information is lacking.

  54. Why all the injuries and death by execthis · · Score: 1

    Its happening because there is a concerted black ops PR/astroturf campaign to vilify, attack, discredit, smear, and mock bicyclists. This is the United States. Wake up people.

  55. Anecdotal evidence FTW by PatientZero · · Score: 2

    It's quite rare to see a bicyclist come to a complete stop . . . or even slow to walking speed at a stop sign and it's common to see them blow through red lights without even slowing down significantly.

    A 2007 study of 7,502 cyclists at five random intersections in London concluded that "an average of 16% violated red lights, whilst the remaining 84% obeyed the traffic signals."

    A similar study of 2,617 cyclists at seven intersections across in Oregon in 2013 found the red light compliance rate to be 69.1% (89.7% excluding right-turn-on-red which is illegal but generally safer since you're not crossing traffic lanes which was your complaint).

    I don't consider 16% and 21% high enough to call "common."

    --
    Freedom to fear. Freedom from thought. Freedom to kill.
    I guess the War on Terror really is about freedom!
    1. Re:Anecdotal evidence FTW by uncqual · · Score: 2

      I would consider a 21% failure to comply with an unambiguous traffic law about intersections controlled by traffic signals to constitute it as "common" failure. Think about this for a minute -- if more than 1 in 5 automobiles failed to stop at red lights, would you consider it not to be a "common" occurrence? Anyway, in the area I live in, the failure rate is MUCH higher than this - it's true that I live in an area with a lot of bicyclists so they may feel a bit more self entitled than those in some other areas.

      (Of course, you cherry picked - the actual violation rate seems to be over 30% if one doesn't exclude things that, for some reason, "don't count" even though everyone knows the law and expects others to follow them.)

      --
      Why is there an "insightful" mod and why isn't it "-1"? If I wanted insight, I wouldn't be reading /.
    2. Re:Anecdotal evidence FTW by Paxtez · · Score: 1

      I don't consider 16% and 21% high enough to call "common."

      Common in this context doesn't mean that it happens more than it doesn't happen. If one out of 5-7 cars disregarded red lights it would be real bad. It's high enough that if you saw a bike you would have to assume they were going to run the red.

      I can't remember the last time I've seen a car run a red light that wasn't within 2 seconds of it turning red. But I will see bikes do it (normally by hopping on the sidewalk, crossing in the cross walk, then going back on the road), at least daily.

    3. Re:Anecdotal evidence FTW by PatientZero · · Score: 1

      I would consider a 21% failure to comply with an unambiguous traffic law about intersections controlled by traffic signals to constitute it as "common" failure.

      I consider common to mean widespread, usual, or occurring frequently. While 21% (and 31% see below) is still high, it's not often enough in my book to call common. However, I admit that's subjective. My main goal was to add some actual measurements to the anecdotal claims in most of the comments in this thread.

      (Of course, you cherry picked - the actual violation rate seems to be over 30% if one doesn't exclude things that, for some reason, "don't count" even though everyone knows the law and expects others to follow them.)

      I tried to choose studies that followed good procedures such as having a good sample size, measuring multiple times during the day (as opposed to another study that looked at each intersection on only two fair-weather days from 4pm-7pm, seriously), multiple intersection types, etc. What did I cherry-pick? . . . *rereads post again* . . . Ah, perhaps you were suckered in by my poor arithmetic! The final sentence should read "16% and 31%."

      31% is getting closer, and while I still don't consider it "common", I don't consider it "uncommon" either. :) It would be interesting to compare these rates to law compliance rates of car drivers. Neither excuses the other, but empirical evidence leads to better understanding.

      --
      Freedom to fear. Freedom from thought. Freedom to kill.
      I guess the War on Terror really is about freedom!
    4. Re:Anecdotal evidence FTW by PatientZero · · Score: 1

      Common in this context doesn't mean that it happens more than it doesn't happen. If one out of 5-7 cars disregarded red lights it would be real bad.

      Don't confuse my disagreement over the use of the word common as condonement of running red lights or arguing that it's not dangerous in many cases. The problem is that people make general statements such as "every cyclist I see runs red lights and blows through stop signs" and then alter their behavior based on that false assumption by either forcing cyclists out of a lane by passing too closely, not looking for them when turning right, turning left in front of them "cause, y'know, they better stop of they'll die too bad for them," etc. If you paint all cyclists as law-breakers, drivers feel they don't have to share the road with them.

      If you want truly common rates, look up studies that measure infractions by car drivers. Or you can just trust my friend who claims that "all drivers speed."

      --
      Freedom to fear. Freedom from thought. Freedom to kill.
      I guess the War on Terror really is about freedom!
    5. Re:Anecdotal evidence FTW by penguinoid · · Score: 1

      It's still way less than half. Care to guess what proportion of motor vehicles drivers violate traffic laws (eg, speeding by 1 mph or more, not coming to a complete 3 second stop at a stop sign)?

      --
      Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
    6. Re:Anecdotal evidence FTW by uncqual · · Score: 1

      We are talking about one SPECIFIC violation class (failure to stop at stop signs or not respecting red lights). When you add all possible traffic laws, you must evaluate both bicyclists and automobile drivers for ALL possible law violations.

      For example, it's very rare to see bicyclists in traffic signalling that they are stopping (usually requiring gesturing with their left hand down since they rarely have brake lights). Most automobile drivers signal their impending stop because brake systems on all modern cars (50 years old at least) that are functioning correctly do that automatically. With turns, it's MUCH more common to see a driver in traffic signal their intent to turn (usually w/blinkers) than to see a cyclist do it.

      Yes, almost 100% of the automobile drivers and almost 100% of the bicyclists have violated a traffic law.

      It's true that automobiles probably exceed speed limits more frequently than bicyclists because they can easily do so. However, bicyclists more often violate the rules (depending on your state) that require a vehicle (including a bicycle) to pull over if it's moving more slowly and three or more vehicles are delayed behind them.

      --
      Why is there an "insightful" mod and why isn't it "-1"? If I wanted insight, I wouldn't be reading /.
  56. I don't care if bicyclist want to ride a bike by p51d007 · · Score: 1

    Doesn't bother me, as long as they OBEY traffic laws. Riding AS FAR AS THE RIGHT as possible, not in city traffic riding in the "left" (passing) lane. Keeping up with the flow of traffic, OR MOVING OUT OF THE WAY, and not jumping through a RED LIGHT. I would prefer they stay off the "main" roads, to keep traffic flowing.

    1. Re:I don't care if bicyclist want to ride a bike by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      Riding AS FAR AS THE RIGHT as possible, not in city traffic riding in the "left" (passing) lane.

      You emphasized the wrong words. The important ones are "AS POSSIBLE" (actually, "as practicable" in my state's laws). For example, a cyclist in the left lane is riding as far right as possible, if he's about to make a left turn. The cyclist riding in the middle of the lane is riding as far right as possible, if there's debris on the right side.

      If the lane is too narrow for a car and a bike to occupy side-by-side at the same time and the car can't move left into the adjacent lane to pass, then "as far right as possible" means the cyclist should ride in the middle of it to prevent idiot drivers from unsafely trying to make an impossible pass.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

  57. Two signals, one hand by tepples · · Score: 1

    But I think I have never in my life seen anybody on a bike (other than myself :-) ) ever do the hand signal for stopping (and at least in our state it's required by law).

    I acknowledge but plead not guilty by reason of necessity. Both the hand signal for stopping and the hand signal for turning use the same hand. If I am stopping with the intent of turning, especially when everyone else can see the stop sign or red light that I've stopped for, signaling my turn in my opinion overrides signaling my stop.

    1. Re:Two signals, one hand by silas_moeckel · · Score: 1

      So your bike is defective and should not be driven on the roadway.

      --
      No sir I dont like it.
    2. Re:Two signals, one hand by tepples · · Score: 1

      If physical inability of a cyclist to give two required signals at once makes a bike defective, then all bikes are defective. Just to make sure, is that what you meant to imply? If not, what did I miss?

    3. Re:Two signals, one hand by silas_moeckel · · Score: 1

      Nope my son's works fine, he petals backwards to stop. If your going to treat a bike like a car it should need to pass inspection, it's not like adding some running lights and signals would be complex and with modern LED's it's not like you need onboard generators, batteries last near forever.

      --
      No sir I dont like it.
    4. Re:Two signals, one hand by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I acknowledge but plead not guilty by reason of necessity. Both the hand signal for stopping and the hand signal for turning use the same hand.

      Sigh. You don't need to use them both at once. You are legally obliged to use the hand signal for stopping if you are stopping and not turning. If you are stopping and then turning, you use the hand signal for turning.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re:Two signals, one hand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Backward-pedalling brakes are ridiculously unsafe. The latency is huge, it only works on the rear wheel and usually hardly at all.

    6. Re:Two signals, one hand by bitingduck · · Score: 1

      Coaster brakes aren't effective brakes. Rear brakes in general aren't very effective-- all your braking power comes from the front.

      Adding brake lights to brake levers would be easy though.

    7. Re:Two signals, one hand by silas_moeckel · · Score: 1

      The point is if society is going to give them the rights of cars the need to have the responsibilities of cars. That means effective methods to communicate intent and using them.

      --
      No sir I dont like it.
    8. Re:Two signals, one hand by chilenexus · · Score: 1

      Flowers have petals, bikes have pedals.

    9. Re:Two signals, one hand by JimFive · · Score: 1

      Nope, signal your stop first. Signal your turn after you've stopped. The fact that you're turning doesn't matter to anyone until after you have stopped. If you need to change lanes to turn, signal the lane change, then change lanes, then signal the stop, then stop, then signal the turn.
      JimFive

      --
      Please stop using the word theory when you mean hypothesis.
  58. Hoosiers have sold their toll road to Australia by tepples · · Score: 1

    Actually, Americans (assholes or not) do own the roads they drive on.

    Not if they're living in the State of Indiana, which has leased its toll road to a foreign company. "Australia’s IFM Investors has agreed to a $5.725 billion deal to operate the 157-mile toll road that runs across Indiana between the Ohio Turnpike and Chicago Skyway for the next 66 years."

    1. Re:Hoosiers have sold their toll road to Australia by CaptainDork · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but that's only for 66 years.

      --
      It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
  59. Not For Adults Only by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Been following this trend since about 2005.

    A lot of children and adults less than 18 are being killed by automobile drivers. Came across a story that killing by automobile is quickly becoming the top form of murder in the US. Local magistrates basically give automobile drivers a pass (even those who failed a blood test) i.e. no charges, and pass on charges (court costs, insurance costs, etc.) to the relatives i.e. parents of the killed child.

  60. Ten minute demand-actuated red lights by tepples · · Score: 1

    Bicyclists should wait at red lights just like everyone else, for example. It doesn't mean "stop, look, then proceed if you don't see a car crossing". It means you wait until it turns green.

    If a traffic signal's induction loop detector is not detecting a bicycle because of insufficient metal surface, how many minutes is a cyclist expected to wait at a red light before making a U-turn and finding another route?

    1. Re:Ten minute demand-actuated red lights by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

      Bicyclists should wait at red lights just like everyone else, for example. It doesn't mean "stop, look, then proceed if you don't see a car crossing". It means you wait until it turns green.

      If a traffic signal's induction loop detector is not detecting a bicycle because of insufficient metal surface, how many minutes is a cyclist expected to wait at a red light before making a U-turn and finding another route?

      You wait forever because it's the damn law - don't blow through a red light.

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    2. Re:Ten minute demand-actuated red lights by tepples · · Score: 1

      So how does one go about seeking "just compensation" for a vehicle that the government impounded by placing a red light?

    3. Re:Ten minute demand-actuated red lights by jittles · · Score: 1

      Bicyclists should wait at red lights just like everyone else, for example. It doesn't mean "stop, look, then proceed if you don't see a car crossing". It means you wait until it turns green.

      If a traffic signal's induction loop detector is not detecting a bicycle because of insufficient metal surface, how many minutes is a cyclist expected to wait at a red light before making a U-turn and finding another route?

      You wait forever because it's the damn law - don't blow through a red light.

      Is it though? In the state of Virginia you're allowed to run a red light on a motorcycle if there is no traffic and you've waited a prescribed amount of time for the traffic signal to change. I think that makes perfect sense, too. I've sat at a stop light for 10 minutes on a motorcycle moving back and forth across the sensor (you can often see where they are through the asphalt) without having it trigger. Someone pulled up behind me and the light turned green almost immediately. In this situation I could have made a right turn and then gone a few miles down the road to the next place I could make a U-turn but if that light can't detect a motorcycle, it's not going to detect a bicycle at all.

    4. Re:Ten minute demand-actuated red lights by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

      So how does one go about seeking "just compensation" for a vehicle that the government impounded by placing a red light?

      Nothings been impounded. You are free to get off your bike and carry it away. Or carry it across the pedestrian crossing. Or just wait near the kerb until a vehicle triggers the traffic light.

      You have lots of options - it's hyperbole to suggest that by obeying a red traffic light, your vehicle is destined to sit there forever. If you were a considerate biker in the first place you wouldn't be in the center of the lane anyway; you'd be off to one side and a car would sooner or later pull up next to you and trigger the loop.

      I bike too. I used to ride a motorcycle as well. I do my best to ensure that traffic can flow past me, which sometimes involves pushing my bike on the sidewalk.

      If you very inconsiderately prevent traffic from activating the loop because "I HAVE RIGHTS TOO!!!!" then you should simply try exercising your patience in addition to your rights and wait for a vehicle to activate the loop.

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    5. Re:Ten minute demand-actuated red lights by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

      Hey, if your jurisdiction allows it, then go for it. If it's *not* against the law I see no need to sit on the road for no good reason.

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    6. Re:Ten minute demand-actuated red lights by jittles · · Score: 1

      Hey, if your jurisdiction allows it, then go for it. If it's *not* against the law I see no need to sit on the road for no good reason.

      It's not legal in my jurisdiction. I'm just pointing out the fact that everyone's jurisdiction is different. California lets you lane split on a motorcycle. I wouldn't personally do it, even if it were legal where I live now. But if there is a bad car accident that grinds traffic to a halt then I will drive on the shoulder illegally to get out of the way. The only reason I do that though is that it's very hot here and my motorcycle will overheat. If traffic is dead stopped then I turn my bike off and wait. Typically it's moving just fast enough that I would hold up traffic if I stayed in a lane and just slow enough that my bike doesn't get enough airflow through the radiator. I don't particularly enjoy doing it but my choices at that point are: 1) Pull over and wait for traffic to clear 2) Overheat and then cause a bigger traffic problem 3) break the law and get out of everyone's way. I'm not selfless enough to do 1 number 3 would cause me to get in the way of first responders. Even then I'm paranoid that some car will get the idea to do the same thing and pull onto the shoulder and hit me

    7. Re:Ten minute demand-actuated red lights by bitingduck · · Score: 1

      I can trigger most induction loops with just a standard box-rim aluminum wheel. The catch is that you have to find them, and sometimes find the active one because they've been butchered and replaced a number of times and there are cuts all over the road. You also have to know the right spot for each geometry of loop-- Google the ones you most commonly see.

    8. Re:Ten minute demand-actuated red lights by tepples · · Score: 1

      Hey, if your jurisdiction allows it, then go for it.

      Agreed. But is moving to a jurisdiction that allows it worth it?

    9. Re:Ten minute demand-actuated red lights by tepples · · Score: 1

      Most loops in my city are 1.8 m (6 foot) diameter circles or octagons, for which the sweet spot is a chord of the circle. Sometimes it triggers; sometimes it doesn't. Some older loops are 1.8 m by 6 m (6 foot by 20 foot) rectangles, for which Google has never found a sweet spot that works for me.

    10. Re:Ten minute demand-actuated red lights by bitingduck · · Score: 1

      Circles are usually most sensitive just inside the tangent.

  61. Biker are becoming assholes. by wisnoskij · · Score: 1

    There are people who purposely run them down because pretty much all non-bikers, hate bikers. And pretty much all bikers hate drivers. Car and bikes simply seem to not get along on the same road very well at all. This hatred often erupts into open and excessive displays of violence on both sides. So it is getting more dangerous to bike.

    --
    Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    1. Re:Biker are becoming assholes. by samwichse · · Score: 1

      I think you've been on the internet watching the echo chambers too long.

      Most everyone who bikes also drives at some point in the US. I ride for exercise, and 90% of the drivers on the road are considerate, another 9% are "chaotic neutral," and of the last 1%, only a fraction are actively malicious.

  62. Air Pollution, Skin Cancer.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ..
    .
    ".. some of the benefits of 'biking' in traffic to work.. and their all natural.. and FREE!"

  63. Demand-actuated intersection by tepples · · Score: 1

    They go through red lights. [...] My mom gave me a state drivers manual for me to study.

    What did your state driver's manual say about how to request a green light from a demand-actuated intersection? A lot of induction loops buried under the road in such intersections aren't sensitive enough to detect a bicycle stopped with its front and rear wheels over the crack in the road. Some won't even detect motorcycles.

    1. Re:Demand-actuated intersection by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To that end, a number of municipalities have instituted "dead on red" statues whereby motorcyclists and bicyclists are allowed to proceed through red lights when cross-traffic allows (but only after stopping and waiting a few minutes to see if the light changes on its own).

    2. Re:Demand-actuated intersection by Botched · · Score: 1

      What did your state driver's manual say about how to request a green light from a demand-actuated intersection?.

      It says you need to obey the law at all times, not just when it's convenient. What we need is a lot more bikers getting tickets for illegal behavior, until they either learn the law or realize that they need a suicide councilor, not a bicycle.

    3. Re:Demand-actuated intersection by tepples · · Score: 1

      It says you need to obey the law at all times, not just when it's convenient.

      This goes for drivers as well. What use is spending $30,000 on a car if your city government is just going to take it from you by turning the light red and not turning it green?

    4. Re:Demand-actuated intersection by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Get off your bike and cross as a pedestrian.

    5. Re:Demand-actuated intersection by tepples · · Score: 1

      Why don't we demand that people put their cars in neutral, get out, close the door, and push?

    6. Re:Demand-actuated intersection by ComputerGeek01 · · Score: 1

      What did your state driver's manual say about how to request a green light from a demand-actuated intersection?

      My state's manual doesn't cover this, but my common fucking sense says that if the infrastructure in my area doesn't accommodate my prefered mode of transportation, then I should choose a different form of transportation instead of breaking the established traffic laws and endangering everyone around me. Congratulations, you are at least as stupid as those idiots that complain about not having anywhere to ride their Segways. The safety and functionality of the 200 people around you outweigh the health benefits that your highly impractical form of transportation might provide for you.

    7. Re:Demand-actuated intersection by tepples · · Score: 1

      choose a different form of transportation

      What other form is available to people without thousands of dollars for 50 hours of driving lessons, a car, fuel, and insurance, especially on Sundays and holidays?

    8. Re:Demand-actuated intersection by chilenexus · · Score: 1

      You're right about them not being able to detect motorcycles. I had a co-worker that told me all the guys in his MC purchase magnets that are placed on the underside of the motorcycle and give them a boost in being detected, since a motorcycle just doesn't contain enough ferrous metal. Of course bicycles aren't going to trigger any of them, and the same magnets most likely will not be strong enough on their own to trigger them.

    9. Re:Demand-actuated intersection by ComputerGeek01 · · Score: 1

      choose a different form of transportation

      What other form is available to people without thousands of dollars..

      What's wrong with a bus? I spent the last seven years taking one form of public transportation or another to and from work because I didn't want to deal with parking or pay for gas and yes, I worked every Sunday and every other holiday; my counterpart took Saturdays and the remaining holidays AND we were both on call. It worked well enough, in fact I miss the reading time that it allowed me to fit into my schedule. If you have to physically endanger people to get to a job that doesn't pay you well enough for you to afford a car loan then you are well overdue to reevaluate your life choices. You should never stay with an employer that forces you to be a drain on society.

  64. Traffic signal planners: idiots by tepples · · Score: 1

    So just because I'm in a car Im responsible for an idiot on a bike running a [red light] and hitting me maybe killing himself?

    Not directly. The only responsibility I can think of is that by making trips in a car that could be done on a bike, you might be contributing to the mentality that vehicle sensors at intersections need to detect only cars. So I admit your responsibility is tiny, but it's still greater than zero.

  65. Green? by jklovanc · · Score: 1

    I have always wondered how much extra fuel is used and CO2 produced by vehicles having to putter along behind cyclists. Combine that with extra braking and acceleration needed to get around cyclist I wonder if bicycles are a positive or negative force with respect to greenhouse gasses.

    1. Re:Green? by mypassis1234 · · Score: 1

      I have always wondered how much extra fuel is used and CO2 produced by vehicles having to putter along behind cyclists. Combine that with extra braking and acceleration needed to get around cyclist I wonder if bicycles are a positive or negative force with respect to greenhouse gasses.

      Probably negligible. If you're forced to go slower, you'll probably save gas, unless there are no upcoming stops. Ya, braking usually means wasting gas, but I'm still guessing the effects are negligible. The amount saved by the cyclists far surpasses it - look it up, the studies are endless. If I see a cyclist in the distance, I lay off the accelerator and coast till I come up to a safe distance behind them - sometimes not having to touch the brake at all.

      Side note, I've mastered a zen approach to never getting mad in traffic. I have a lot of fun driving, and in 25 yrs, been involved in less than $2500 of accident damage. I think I drive faster than most, and yet use less gas. Ask me how if you'd like to be preached to.

    2. Re:Green? by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      There are a lot of probablies and guesses in that post. What I am looking for are facts.

      I lay off the accelerator and coast till I come up to a safe distance behind them

      Do you have to accelerate to get around them or do you follow them doing 30kmh in a 50kmh zone?

      look it up, the studies are endless

      I have tried to find on how cycling effect the CO2 production of vehicles that have to modify what they do to accommodate cyclists. I have not seen any. The studies I have seen are confined to comparing the effects of a cyclist vs a person driving a car. That is very different. None of these studies goes into how a cyclist effects the rest of traffic. What if a cyclist has 20% the impact of a car but the cyclist causes 20 cars to have 10% more impact. That means the cyclist has actually 220% the impact than a car.

      If I see a cyclist in the distance, I lay off the accelerator and coast till I come up to a safe distance behind them - sometimes not having to touch the brake at all.

      To put it another way you slow down traffic even before it is necessary so even fewer cars can make it through the next light and have to idle for the full duration and then accelerate to speed again. See the issue?

    3. Re:Green? by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      To put it another way you slow down traffic even before it is necessary so even fewer cars can make it through the next light and have to idle for the full duration and then accelerate to speed again. See the issue?

      Oh god you're one of THOSE drivers. So many times, I see slow moving or stopped traffic in the distance so I ease off the speed to avoid slamming on the brakes, then get hooted by some moron who can't look further ahead than the car in front. It's worse for average traffic flow to have mixed fast and stopped regions than it is to have the traffic going at a uniformly slow speed, because the total capacity is limited by the total capacity at the thinnest point, and that's when cars are going fastest and so have larger separation.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    4. Re:Green? by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      So you react to a situation that may be cleared by the time you get there and slow all traffic. I have seen some moron slow down while entering a green light because the light is red a block away and then speed up as it turns yellow. All that did was make me and the three cars behind me miss the current green. That red he slowed down for was green long before he got to that intersection. All traffic has mixed fast and slow regions. That is caused by traffic lights. Fast regions have green lights and slow regions have red lights. You concentrate on not using brakes and ignore the cars behind you.

    5. Re:Green? by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      So you react to a situation that may be cleared by the time you get there and slow all traffic.

      No matter what you want zooming along than slamming on the brakes is worse interms of traffic throughput than going at a constant speed.

      All that did was make me and the three cars behind me miss the current green.

      The horror, the horror.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
  66. Re: adults across the U.S. are strapping on helmet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Since less than 1% of cyclists ever wear a helmet, we must conclude that either wearing a helmet is very unsafe, or people who ride recklessly are more likely to wear a helmet.

  67. You suffer from confirmation bias by emj · · Score: 4, Informative

    All people in traffic break the law, you just choose to see the bad behaviour of cyclists, it's very easy to succumb to confirmation bias, or just plain we vs. them thinking. Anyways there are lots of studies on this if you care to read them, some peer reviewed and some not so peer reviewed.

    That said you do need to break the law when bicycling, and it's often the safest way to bicycle. This is why we have things like "idaho stop", pregreen for cyclists etc.

  68. Situational awareness by alispguru · · Score: 2

    Two principles to be aware of when you are on a bike in auto traffic:

    1. You are in the most danger when auto traffic crosses your path. Intersections are the most obvious example. Especially dangerous are turning lanes and off-ramps when you are going straight - cars that are changing lanes or preparing to turn are looking for other cars, not bicycles.

    2. If you hear a siren, get off the road NOW. Cars will be trying to get out of the way of emergency vehicles, and looking to avoid other cars, not bicycles.

    I've been a short-distance commuting cyclist since 1994. I've been hit once in traffic - at an off-ramp, by a car that was getting out of the way of a fire truck.

    --

    To a Lisp hacker, XML is S-expressions in drag.
  69. More poor people on bikes too. by GrantRobertson · · Score: 1

    I used to be an avid cyclist. Like, 3,000 miles per year avid. So I notice people on bikes. What I have seen over the years is more really poor people on crappy bikes that are the wrong size for them and/or improperly adjusted. These people are seriously uneducated in cycling technique, the law, and basic safety. They will ride against traffic, at dusk, with the sun at their back, and all kinds of crazy-stupid stuff.

    So, it wouldn't surprise me at all if the recent uptick of income inequality has had something to do with the increased death rate.

    When I was a kid, bicycle safety was taught in school. I'm guessing this has fallen by the wayside (pun intended) as well.

  70. strapping on helmets -- here is your problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    strapping on helmets and thinking they are protected.
    No, you are not!

  71. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  72. Red and green! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Learn the bloody difference!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yiu1uLgwF1E

  73. don't stop there by frovingslosh · · Score: 1

    Don't stop there. It turns out that even a greater percentage of vehicle / pedestrian casualties occur when the pedestrian is not wearing a helmet. So let us use our Politically Correct Nanny State logic and mandate that all pedestrians have sight and sound restricting helmets. And once we have that in place we can start understanding that all injuries and deaths occur more frequently when the poor victim isn't wearing a helmet, so we can be a good nanny state and require that people wear helmets all of the time.

    --
    I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
  74. Ban bicycles!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A much lower accident and death rate got Bucky Balls completely banned. I say it's time to tackle this two-wheeled menace, which could be the greatest problem our society faces today.

  75. What Hits Bikes (in Queensland, AU) by Jeremy+Lee · · Score: 1

    I'm sure the anecdotes are fascinating, but hard data is always more useful. Slightly over a year ago I did a quick analysis of the accident patterns regarding bikes in my own state, Queensland Australia, using the data that the Transport dept. released.

    http://www.unorthodox.com.au/map/what_hits_bikes/

    The data shows that there are particular 'hotspots' where bike accidents occur, usually were flows of heavy vehicles and multiple (complex) lanes meet. That suggests that we don't need bike lanes everywhere, but we do need clear bikeways through heavy traffic spots. Incidents are _not_ correlated with population density, but with heavy traffic density. There are also odd hotspots around places like public parks, though they seem to be of the more low-level parking-style incidents.

    The original data included all road accidents, but was winnowed to just the bike events. The incident reports don't reveal individual details like which vehicle's driver was injured, but in the fatality incidents between, eg: a pushbike and a road-train, I'm pretty sure it wasn't the three-ton truck driver who came off worse for wear.

    --
    Jeremy Lee | Orinoco
    1. Re:What Hits Bikes (in Queensland, AU) by Jeremy+Lee · · Score: 1

      eg: In my own city (Brisbane) the clear winner for things killing cyclists is trick drivers 'side swiping' or lane-changing on top of them along major roads or intersections, in the CBD, not the suburbs. By a margin measured in ratios close to 3:1. Not cars. Not buses. Not other cyclists.

      Basically, if you're cycling along a main road in plain view and full daylight, and a big-ass truck rolls up beside you in the next lane... Danger! Danger Will Robinson!

      --
      Jeremy Lee | Orinoco
    2. Re:What Hits Bikes (in Queensland, AU) by Jeremy+Lee · · Score: 1

      crap.. typo. "Truck" drivers, not "Trick" drivers.

      --
      Jeremy Lee | Orinoco
  76. Thoughts from a professional by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Professional cyclist here:

    the best advice in this thread is to consistently ride in the middle of your lane. Allow motorists to pass when it is safe to do so. Be wary of bike lanes in modern urban areas. Many people do not consider them part of flowing traffic and will hook you while making a right turn. Because I ride briskly I tend to avoid some bike lanes altogether, especially when descending. Better seen and hated than dead and ignored.

    Also unfortunately more and more motorists are splitting time driving and using portable devices. The rate is high enough where I live that I cannot afford to give anyone the benefit of the doubt, all vehicles are suspect.

    If you feel comfortable with your bike, work on panic stops. These usually involve locking the rear wheel and whipping the bike around (sometimes pivoting on the ground side foot). It is the fastest way to stop and has saved me from impact numerous times. Practice in a parking lot.

  77. They are different. by pigwiggle · · Score: 1

    At least in my state. Stop signs are effectively yield or stop. Stop lights are stop then yield. There are requirements for position within a lane depending on intent. Cyclist are allowed to ride two deep. There are no requirements for passing distance as there are for autos. I could list more if I just sat here and thought. But you get the idea.

    --
    46 & 2
  78. Saner view... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    100K+ lifetime miles. ~20 nations, 5 continents (North America, Asia, Europe, Australia, Africa), and lots of islands.
    From the viewpoint of someone who actually has more miles on a bicycle than they do driving:
    - American drivers are the most distracted, immature, and unsafe humans behind the wheel.
    - Rural Japanese drivers are the most polite and courteous drivers in the world.
    - Unless you do something incredibly stupid, you will not even come close to getting hit in Thai traffic.
    - North Australian drivers are better drivers blind-stinking drunk than most American drivers are stone-cold sober. Queenslanders... ah, different story.

    On riding style: "Invisible" does not work. I prefer the "ride like they can't see you or hear you" style - helmet, helmet mirror, hi-vis and clashing colors, multiple reflectors, blinker head/tail/side/wheel lights. The 'dinger' bell works pretty well for pedestrians (if they aren't wearing headphones), but I prefer a really loud voice if they are distracted and a 4-tone 100db air horn if they are stupid. Cell phone off, no music, and no headphones. Reasonable sunglasses with a retention strap.

    Bike Paths: Great idea, but normally poorly implemented. Singapore does them really well.
    Bike Lanes: Wide with no storm drains, please.

  79. It's not nationwide yet by tepples · · Score: 1

    To that end, a number of municipalities have instituted "dead on red" statues

    And a number have not. Or should cyclists make a point of moving to one of the states that have?

  80. syntax error by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    the link insinuating older bikers should know the rules of the road has nothing to do with bikers knowing how to bike, another asshole driving a car not wanting to pay attention

  81. More cyclists and more cars by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not only are there more cyclists, there are more cars on the road. In my area, South Pasadena, CA, in the past 20 years has been a major increase in traffic. "Rush hour" used to be 2-3 hours in the morning, and 2-3 hours in the evening. Now the two major North South Streets are nearly solid traffic 14 hours a day.
    I gave up cycling circa 1990. There were several near accidents. Then someone in a convertable Cabriolet with 4-6 teenagers/young adults threw a 7-11 Big Gulp drink container at me, still full of ice. (For those of you outside the USA, this is a large drink in a paper or plastic cup, around 1.5 quarts or liters). I was probably going 20 mph; the car was going may 40-50 mph. It would have hurt, in may have caused injury, it may have caused me to lose control or the bike--hopefully not under the wheels of a car...etc. I gave chase and was within 5 feet at the next corner of being able to leap inside the vehicle. Dang!
    Reading some of the above I didn't see any mention of this danger to cyclists: intentional assault. These idiot kids would be in the category of idiot kids, hooliganism. etc., not limited to throwing things at bicyclists. But that age group and that idiot behavior does kill people at times, including but limited to bicyclists. (Not mention a high share of Darwin Award Winners).
    But any cyclist has heard or personally experienced drivers intentionally nudging bikes at stops signs/red lights, squeezing them off the side of the road, or even ramming bikes. Women cyclists run the risk of men trying to slap their butt, sometime causing with serious injuries or death. Hmm, that could be a nice place to put some spikes?

    Could be worse. Latest news from China is that some drivers if they hit a pedestrian, and I assume a cyclist, run over them a few more times to make sure they are dead. Seems the legal system values a dead person much less than having to pay for a disabled person for the rest of their life.

    I hope I'm reincarnated as a dolphin....

  82. "...open grates..." Bike lanes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Open grates:
    You are a road engineer. Or maybe just a construction team. You are installing a grate on the edge of a road to drain water.
    Do you consider that if the grate had parallel bars with a 1.5" gap and you install the grate with the bars running the same direction as the road that bicycle wheels will fall into that grate, sometimes toppling the bicyclist?
    This danger has been know for decades, and yet grates like this are still installed in this dangerous manner. I can show you some a couple miles from my house.
    Bike lanes.
    The City of Los Angeles is creating new bike lanes. Not without controversy. A lane was installed a few blocks from my house (On York St., zip 90042). In doing so it reduced the number of lanes over the York Street Bridge over the Pasadena Arroyo and Pasadena Freeway down to 3 from 4 lanes. I thought that the bike lanes would be rarely used, and that this was a poor decision. And I'm very pro-bike. I was wrong; if you build it they will come! The bike lanes have a lot bikes on them at various times.
    But there is a problem. Roads rarely have the space to put in a real, fully committed bike lane, which really needs to be an exclusive bike lane for safety.
    A planned connecting section of bike lanes down Figueroa St. or parallel streets has stalled. The reason is the real fact that the only way to install a bike lane in that area is to take away either a traffic lane or car parking space, and many people don't want that.
    Ah! How about an elevated bike path...but once you put people in such hard to leave zones, you create a space for criminality to do it's thing.
    Sigh.

    The other problem is expense. Google it; you will find that even at the cheapest level requiring only paint and signs, it runs up into 5 or 6 figures $$$$$ or $$$$$$ per mile.

  83. Maybe the problem isn't so much the riders by mark_reh · · Score: 1

    as the stupid design of most bikes. Look at the dumb things- if you hit something, you are launched head-first over the handlebars. If that isn't a recipe for disaster I don't know what is. The only thing worse would be if we were riding high-wheelers.

    I have ridden mostly recumbents for the last 20 years and in few times I've crashed in that interval I have always gone feet first and either landed on my feet or on my side next to the bike- with one exception (rear-ended by a motorcycle in Japan) no head or neck injuries, no fractured clavicles, no broken wrists. I designed and built the bike myself with crash safety in mind. It has a short wheel base with steering located alongside and below the seat. There are no steering or derailleur posts between my legs to bust my nuts on in a frontal crash.

    Fix the bike design and fix the safety problem.

    1. Re:Maybe the problem isn't so much the riders by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      You get much, much better visibility on a normal bike compared to a recumbent though. I can see over the top of almost all cars easily on a bike. I also prefer driving vans (I love me a ford Transit) because of the better forward visibility.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    2. Re:Maybe the problem isn't so much the riders by naris · · Score: 1

      That van must be loads of fun going over windy bridges.....

    3. Re:Maybe the problem isn't so much the riders by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Depends on how it's loaded. Heavily loaded and it's fine. Lightly and there'a a bit of wobble.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
  84. Use douche-biker arrogance against them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Many douchecyclists "clip in" meaning their toes are locked to the pedals. One of the main reasons they don't want to stop, because it is difficult or at the least tedious to repeatedly unclip and clip in for every legal traffic control device. So, since they have every right to occupy a full lane with their bicycle, so do you when they're coming up behind you at a stop sign/light. So sit there longer than they think you will. It's funny as hell to watch them fight those pedals and fall over thinking they were going to be able to blow the intersection.

  85. Right. More wannabe cyclists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not, y'know, the texting drivers.

  86. Change the laws and regulations! by penguinoid · · Score: 1

    Here's an idea: get rid of almost every all-way stop signs, replace most traffic lights with green plus stop sign (blinking red), put speed limits at a reasonable level and then enforce them 100%, replace several stop signs with yield signs, allow rolling stops. Basically, make the traffic signals as a bicyclist sees them. We could have all this if people driving tons of metal weren't stupid dangerous assholes who have to be kept in line by making traffic laws more extreme than necessary.

    --
    Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
    1. Re:Change the laws and regulations! by Murdoch5 · · Score: 1

      I'm not opposed to changing the screwed up existing traffic system at all, but motorists are going to have compromise, then so do cyclists,

  87. common sense in a privileges nation goes down by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's a proven fact. As time goes to infinity, common sense monotonically decreases in a privileged nation, while self importance and ego increases. Kinda sucks, but a lack of common sense translates to shitty drivers, and shitty cyclists. The only silver lining here, video game players, FPS specifically, show increased spatial awareness, and helps buffer from even more extreme accident rates.

  88. Basic statistics, anyone? by ET3D · · Score: 1

    The post says this basically: "A lot more people are riding bikes than before, especially in the older age group, yet for some unexplained reason more bike riders get into accidents, especially in the older age group. That's so bewildering we can't wrap our heads around this strange phenomenon."

  89. Separate cyclists from cars by rhdv · · Score: 2
    When I (dutch guy) visited Florida this year, I was surprised that the bike lanes were a small strip at this side of the road.
    So we have cars going at 60 mph next to bicycles going 15-20 mph. Notice the difference in speed?
    That is why there are sidewalks, that are clearly separated from the road.

    In the Netherlands bike lanes next to highways are separated by a strip of land, barrier, etc. or the maximum speed is 20-30 mph when cyclists and cars share the road.
    If the number of cyclists in the US increase dramatically, the only way to reduce the number of accidents is to separate the two.
    The Netherlands is there already, so the infrastructure is now in place. It just took a couple of decades + dead cyclists to get there.

  90. Yeah, right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't tell drivers how to drive, tell cyclists how to avoid being run over.

    That's safe and reasonable...

  91. Read the definition of vehicle. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And wonder why traffic and vehicle are not synonymous.

    A bicycle is not holding up traffic by cycling in lane. You have no right to overtake.

    How many drivers move over to let cyclists through in a gridlock? NONE.

  92. Cycling in N.A. is a vanity, so why care? by fygment · · Score: 1

    Three points for that demographic in North America: 1) cycling is not a necessity, 2) they already know vehicle operation rules and regulations, and 3) they choose to ignore vehicle operation rules and regulations.

    Very very few adults in North America have to cycle, so it's a vain choice reflecting a desire for better health (that's good) and for appearance (being 'hip'). Note the 'health' aspect is only partially true since every effort appears to be made to reduce the actual effort of biking eg. form fitting cycling apparel, the lightest possible (affordable) bicycles, and a reluctance to slow down or stop. [Aside: contrast this with cyclists in Europe, Asia, Third World where cycling is a necessity due to prohibitive automobile/fuel costs, and is done work/street clothes.]

    Very very few adults in North America don't know the 'rules of the road' since the overwhelming majority are also automobile drivers!

    No, the problem seems that adult cyclists find the sirens call of a bicycles 'freedom' irresistible. They don't see the bicycle as a 'vehicle' except when convenient, say in court after an injury. As a result, they ignore stop signs, traffic lights, ride pedestrian ways (lawns, parks, crosswalks, sidewalks, etc.), take one-way streets in the wrong direction, squeeze past stopped or slow moving vehicles in traffic, and generally circulate as if they were the most important beings in motion (and possibly immortal?).

    They know the risks, they take the risks, they bear the consequences. There are more important things to be concerned with in the world.

    --
    "Consensus" in science is _always_ a political construct.
  93. Compared to scuba diving by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There is a similar issue with scuba diving. According to the Divers Alert Network (DAN), There has been an uptick in deaths triggered from heart attacks while scuba diving (actual cause of death is often drowning, but the heart attack caused that). This is difficult to quantify exactly. It is known that there are more scuba divers in general. It is also known that there are more active scuba divers over the age of 55 than there used to be. It is also known that the activity itself puts stress on the heart. What is hard to tell is exact numbers of active scuba divers, much less the frequency of dives or the number in a particular demographic. Those confounding factors make it harder to draw real conclusions about the relationship between heart attacks and scuba diving.

  94. Terrible bike paths by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The road designers should be made to ride the bike paths through their systems. The area near my home looks like it has bike paths. They just don't connect to each other. You have paths that change sides of the street with now cross walk. Suddenly disappearing paths with no shoulder.
    Each neighborhood has its own rules and no connection to the next. It is at these junctures that accidents happen.

  95. Speed Differential by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Speed Differential has been found to be a major cause of accidents between motor vehicles. The proportionate difference between cars and icicles is even greater, so it's no wonder there are some accidents.

  96. "Look at me, I'm in the Tour de France!" Attitude. by lavaboy · · Score: 1

    I'm motorcyclist in Europe, and part of my hobby, the part I like best, is mountain touring. The worst thing that ever happens - and this is speaking as someone who has been in the losing side of a competition with a delivery truck - is coming around a corner on an up-hill mountain road and facing the backside of a pod of spandex-clad, "clipped-in" wanna-be Tour-de-France-competitors riding their bikes, weaving along at walking speed 6 abreast across the entire lane (and sometimes across the entire paved road). I have no problem with sharing the road with bicyclists, but sharing is a two-way street, so to speak. I cannot count the number of times where I have had to emergency brake or drift into the oncoming lane to avoid these idiots^h^h^h^h^h^h situations. I know some motorcyclists can be PITAs as well, but I'm talking about driving within the law, at the posted speed limit, taking all necessary defensive driving precautions.

    The second worst thing, is on the downhill side, where suddenly the lane markings on the roads seem to become invisible to reckless suicidal-seeming bicyclists who low-high-low curves across the entire road at ridiculous speeds that can only be achieved on steep downhill grades. Tbh, I have no problem with these guys taking their own lives in their hands, but I take serious exception at their implicit decision to involve me and my bike in their demise.

    --
    Steve -- If you have to call it a system, you don't know what it is.
  97. Finland got it right by PPalmgren · · Score: 1

    Bike paths are combined with sidewalks and the sidewalks are asphalt instead of tiled concrete. The sidewalks are about 2-3x as wide as US sidewalks and it is common knowledge to walk as far right as possible to allow through traffic on the left (like US greenways). Once you get into more urban areas, the sidewalks are even wider and tend to have a line in them segregating bikes and people. I think, but am not sure, that the bikes must also have a horn? Bike lanes mixed into regular road traffic was a monumental and non-correctable mistake.

  98. How many minutes is "sooner or later"? by tepples · · Score: 1

    you'd be off to one side and a car would sooner or later pull up next to you and trigger the loop.

    How many minutes did you mean by "sooner or later"? There have been times at more than one intersection in my home town where I have waited ten minutes or more without a car. And when there is a car, it is making a lawful right turn on red or a left turn from the separately-actuated left turn only lane instead of going in my direction.

    If you very inconsiderately prevent traffic from activating the loop

    That was never what I meant.

    1. Re:How many minutes is "sooner or later"? by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

      If you very inconsiderately prevent traffic from activating the loop

      That was never what I meant.

      Mea Culpa. I apologise.

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
  99. Bikers are assholes around here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sorry but bikers around here , the ones in brightly colored spandex and $1000.00 clip on pedals from Italy,are mostly assholes around here. I'll describe a typical commuter bicyclist and their behavior.

    Physically- taller than average, skinner than average. Age 45-55.

    Employed in upper managment.

    Entitled. Aggressdive. Superior. Uncompromising in outlook . Used to being in an enivronment in which he gives orders which are followed and uncomfortable outside of that power environment.

    Behavior: Assertive of his "rights" on the road while yet disobeying every traffic law he deems unsuited to bicyclist commuters- i.e. stop signs. Openly contemptuous of casual bikers. Speeding and aggressive in shared pediestrian / bike venues. Disdainful of dedicated "bike paths", and "multi-use trails" where it's harder to speed, he prefers to ride in even the most dangerous traffic where drivers are most likely to be oblivious to his presence.

    The polar opposite of a defensive driver- instead he is outraged when a motorist doesn't see him lane-splitting his way between cars stopped at a stoplight and is more than willing to let loose with loud invective to anyone- motorist or pedestrian- who gets in "his" way. This is irrespective of how predictable any potential collision might have been to an impartial, prudent onlooker.

    Deeply connected to his activity by a set of complex "philosophical" arguments, he is doctrinaire and insufferable in any conversation related to bicycling, helmets, traffic and commuting.

    What really gets my goat is these people act as if they're doing something positively morally heroic by biking to work. As if there's some heroic-moral dimension to beating their "personal best" time. It just slays me.

    The only possible connection to morality would be via greenhouse gases, but even if vast umbers of people biked to work in America it would only put the smallest dent in greenhouse gas emissions since commerce and transportation of other-than-self is still necessary.

    If you're concerned about greenhouse gas emissions, you need to take it up with your Congressperson and have the government act. Biking to work is not going to save the planet and you are not a hero.

    But I don't think that unsmiling spandexed bikers are the exteme greens in our society (Spandex / Lycra is owned by the Koch brothers BTW) . Rather, they're men (and some women) who are at a stage in their lives where they have something to prove to all of society regarding their virility and potency and have found a venue to do so.

    Publishing AC because, on top fo everything else, they're also spiteful.

  100. Cyclists die where i live.. by idji · · Score: 1

    ..because drivers are texting in and veering into cyclists. Don't just make this rage against cyclists. All players have to be careful, and it doesn't matter who makes the mistake - the cyclist will suffer the most.

  101. It's a no brainer... by dddux · · Score: 1

    I am not surprised at all. Since there are more bikers, there are more accidents and injuries. It's a very simple calculation a 1st grader should be able to do.

    --
    "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." - Jiddu Krishnamurti
  102. WOW: more bikers = more accidents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This article lacks any useful information.

    If the number of bikers doubled and so did the number of accidents, then...? I need to know the relative increases to draw any conclusions.

    And, seriously, the best thing would be for cities to mandate bike lanes and get people safely on those bikes - y'all hear of climate disruption? It'd be a start. But who wants to fight developers?

  103. US roads and streets not for cyclists by carbonates · · Score: 1

    In the 1970's I rode a bicycle from Missouri to California, then up Highway 1 from Los Angeles to San Francisco, out to Yosemite, up to the top of the pass, and back to Los Angeles. Years later I used to ride Highway 1 for exercise taking 30 mile rides after work. I have also done a lot of riding in the Netherlands. The Dutch have it figured out and the US will NEVER be safe for cyclists. The Dutch do not mix bicycles and cars, and bicycles have special lanes for going around intersections. Bicycles never go through intersections there, except on the special lanes that cross the streets outside of traffic circles. Often the bicycle paths are a hundred feet or more away from the highway, and are much more pleasant to ride on because of that. US bicycle lanes are a joke and drivers resent them, as well as the fact that it is legal and expected to merge a car right into the bicycle lane prior to making a right hand turn. Cars who park along bicycle lanes become another hazard from the other side of the lane. Bicycle lanes simply do not belong on streets or on sidewalks. They need to be isolated from both pedestrians and autos if anyone expects safety.

    A bicycle simply cannot share a lane with a car moving 30-60 miles an hour, even if you can manage to reach peak speeds of nearly 25 mph as I often do, and expect to survive. Cyclists cannot see what is behind them, no matter how many tiny little mirrors you wear on your helmet or on your handlebars. Cyclists who ignore traffic rules are only that much more of a threat to themselves, and they do those of us who do follow traffic rules a disservice by convincing drivers that cyclists are unpredictable and crazy. After being run off the road by a police patrol car, and reading of several fatal cycling accidents on Highway 1 in my neighborhood, I quit riding. A doctor finally convinced me that the risk of permanent head injury from cycling accidents was so great that I will choose to live a longer life over the benefits of cycling. I have an expensive Trek that decorates my garage.

  104. The think they own the roads. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't know how many I have almost hit with my car. They blow through stop signs and run red lights. They all think all traffic needs to yield. Just last week guy cam over a hill right out into the street right in front of me. I hit the brakes and he looking at me like I am the one that is in the wrong.

  105. What about the accident rate? by Shirley+Marquez · · Score: 1

    None of the links contain any analysis of the relationship between cycling miles and accidents; they don't even discuss the number of cyclists or the number of miles they ride. I certainly see more cyclists on the road than I did in the past, and unless something changes fundamentally more cyclists and miles = more accidents and deaths.

    They DO mention that the fatality rate for child cyclists has dropped. But something did change there - kids started to wear helmets. Adult cyclists, on the other hand, have largely been wearing helmets since the end of the 80s, and I don't think the rate of helmet use has changed much since then. So we don't have an increase in protection to help prevent accidents.

    Finally, these articles appear to lump all cycling injuries together. But a lot of adult cycling (and presumably injury) happens off the road because of the popularity of mountain biking. The statistics are meaningless unless road cycling is separated from off-road cycling.

  106. Is this a joke? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is this a joke? "Why" are bike injuries spiking in the US? Lets see... We, for the most part, don't have any real bike lanes, it's illegal in most of the country to ride a bike on the sidewalk, and the bicyclists are force to share the road with traffic. Pile on top of that the fact that bicyclists in the US don't seem to care about their own safety and will barrel right out into traffic.

  107. Bike Control now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Zoh my god! We need a background check for every purchase -eliminate the bike show loophole! - and full bike registration on every single bike!

    Won't somebody just think of the children?

  108. Cyclists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seeing cyclists weave in and out of traffic, ride in the middle of the road uphill, not stop at stop signs, not obey traffic lights, I can only reach one conclusion....
    The more cyclists on the road, the more idiots there are cycling...it's the same sort of thing for ANY vehicle, it's just up until now cyclists on the road in North America was rare. Only difference is that people who drive cars and trucks are paying the vast lions share of upkeep for roads, and legally have to be insured.

  109. E-Bikes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Correlate the accidents and age groups with the use of e-bikes and I take bets you will see a high correlation. Myself a frequent cyclist, e-bikes make them go faster than they are used to. There is a huge difference in doing 20 or 35km/h. You have to watch out differently, you have to break differently. Almost all are not used to it.

  110. one thing to realize by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    is that in urban areas, bicycles are where people whove lost their licenses end up. Or were unable to get one. Its the preferred method of transportation for people with no time criteria. Any decent urban trail and street crossing will have individuals who follow the rules, and who are incapable of following rules. It's the latter that get hurt a lot around here.

    the Dbags who are sh*tty riders around *other* bicyclists are my current pet peeve. Got a tandem for the wife and I, and she's new to riding. So we're slow. We move over as best we can but with some racer-x type coming up at full crank from behind clipping our mirrors (we have rear flasher lights, flags, and bright helmets so visibility isn't their excuse) no wonder more people see bicyclists as @ssholes.

    Don't get me started on the entitlement dweebs who drive in from out of town just to clog streets for Critical (m)Ass "events".

  111. Objectively... by Bent+Spoke · · Score: 1

    I bike a 2 hour round trip every day. And in the last 3 months:

      - Was knocked off my bike while doing 25k, while in a bike lane (truck turned right in front of me while I was beside him). I ended up in emerg.
      - Driving my car to work (a rare occurrence), I missed getting t-boned by a pickup, by 6 inches. He hit 2 other cars beside me when I hit the brakes.
      - Other day I got in my car after I biked home, and then swore at a slow biker who took up the whole lane: he was ignoring the 1-meter wide bike lane beside him.
      - saw a biker nearly get hit when he ran a stop sign at a 4-way, where a car had been waiting then started to go, then slammed on the brakes. Biker waved cheerily.
      - Nearly got hit by a car turning left onto highway, as I crossed the highway on my green light: he was tailgating a van, didn't see me, he skidded sideways to a stop.
      - And virtually every day a car mirror whizzes past at less then 1 foot, doing 60-70k .

    So what?

    Well indisputably, bikers do stupid things. However I note there seem to be a lot more drivers (most who never bike), than there are bikers. Without question, driving is more frustration inducing than biking. Usually due to traffic. Which leads to a lot of unhappy, near road-rage individuals out there behind the wheel. And that's not likely going to change any-time soon.

    In fact, I think all the bikers could disappear tomorrow, and the drivers would still be just as neurotic and unhappy.

    What these car drivers should learn is that many of us ride because we used to drive everywhere, but ended up hating what it made us become.

  112. the "Lance Armstrong effect"?? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    maybe if people laid-off the drugs they'd not crash as often?

  113. Car focused infrastructure by MoarSauce123 · · Score: 1

    The entire infrastructure aside from designated bike paths is focused on cars. There may be a few local exceptions, but it is very common to find four lane streets with a speed limit of 45 mph (means cars go 65 mph) and an overgrown and crumbling side walk that is too narrow to accommodate both bikes and pedestrians. Unless the car first thinking goes away these numbers and the daily commute collapse will continue. I'd bike to work if I could find a path that doesn't include guaranteed death and dismemberment.

  114. Bus drivers have Sundays off by tepples · · Score: 1

    What other form is available [...] on Sundays and holidays?

    What's wrong with a bus?

    Buses in Fort Wayne don't run at night, on Saturday evenings, on Sundays, or on six major holidays.

    we were both on call.

    On call with a deadline of how quickly to show up at the work site? Less than a couple hours does not work for a bus system with a 1 hour headway and multiple transfers.

    If you have to physically endanger people to get to a job that doesn't pay you well enough for you to afford a car loan then you are well overdue to reevaluate your life choices.

    This goes equally for cars and bicycles.

  115. Pretty obvious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Boomers went through all the forms of exercise but now that they are older, they need something low impact instead. Bicycles substitute well for running/jogging/walking in that they are outdoors and can cover a pleasant amount of territory during a stint.

  116. Define "Cyclist" by DarthVain · · Score: 1

    The most recent surge which has been the bane of motorists are electric bikes. With the study, are these lumped into the same group? So far as the laws go, they are, even if the physical resemblance is many times not there. From my impression, most of these new e-bikes require no licencing, training, any most probably have little or no regard for anything. Compounded on that, is that they are becoming known more and more as DUI-Bikes. Meaning those people that have lost their driving licence are perfectly legal to drive e-bikes, and many do continue their DUI ways while doing so... I know my city is full of them, and their abuse and lack of any kind of rules is showing.