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Why Car Salesmen Don't Want To Sell Electric Cars
HughPickens.com writes: Matt Richtel writes in the NYT that one big reason there are only about 330,000 electric vehicles on the road is that car dealers show little enthusiasm for putting consumers into electric cars. Industry insiders say that electric vehicles do not offer dealers the same profits as gas-powered cars, they take more time to sell because of the explaining required, and electric vehicles may require less maintenance, undermining the biggest source of dealer profits — their service departments. Some electric car buyers have said they felt as if they were the ones doing the selling. Chelsea Dell made an appointment to test-drive a used Volt but when she arrived, she said, a salesman told her that the car hadn't been washed, and that he had instead readied a less expensive, gas-powered car. "I was ready to pull the trigger, and they were trying to muscle me into a Chevy Sonic," says Dell. "The thing I was baffled at was that the Volt was a lot more expensive." Marc Deutsch, Nissan's business development manager for electric vehicles says some salespeople just can't rationalize the time it takes to sell the cars. A salesperson "can sell two gas burners in less than it takes to sell a Leaf," Deutsch says. "It's a lot of work for a little pay."
Jared Allen says that service is crucial to dealer profits and that dealers didn't want to push consumers into electric cars that might make them less inclined to return for service. Maybe that helps explains the experience of Robert Kast, who last year leased a Volkswagen e-Golf from a local dealer. He said the salesman offered him a $15-per-month maintenance package that included service for oil changes, belt repair and water pumps. "I said: 'You know it doesn't have any of those things,'" Mr. Kast recalled. He said the salesman excused himself to go confirm this with his manager. Of the whole experience, Mr. Kast, 61, said: "I knew a whole lot more about the car than anyone in the building." "Until selling a plug-in electric car is as quick and easy as selling any other vehicle that nets the dealer the same profit, many dealers will avoid them, for very logical and understandable reasons," says John Voelker. "That means that the appropriate question should be directed to makers of electric cars: What are you doing to make selling electric cars as profitable and painless for your dealers as selling gasoline or diesel vehicles?"
Jared Allen says that service is crucial to dealer profits and that dealers didn't want to push consumers into electric cars that might make them less inclined to return for service. Maybe that helps explains the experience of Robert Kast, who last year leased a Volkswagen e-Golf from a local dealer. He said the salesman offered him a $15-per-month maintenance package that included service for oil changes, belt repair and water pumps. "I said: 'You know it doesn't have any of those things,'" Mr. Kast recalled. He said the salesman excused himself to go confirm this with his manager. Of the whole experience, Mr. Kast, 61, said: "I knew a whole lot more about the car than anyone in the building." "Until selling a plug-in electric car is as quick and easy as selling any other vehicle that nets the dealer the same profit, many dealers will avoid them, for very logical and understandable reasons," says John Voelker. "That means that the appropriate question should be directed to makers of electric cars: What are you doing to make selling electric cars as profitable and painless for your dealers as selling gasoline or diesel vehicles?"
If dealers don't want to sell them, let manufacturers sell direct to the customers.
Why should they make any profit whatsoever? They're an anachronistic middle man.
Tell em what you want, they tell you how much it costs and when and where you can pick it up.
The takeway I get is that Tesla's attempts to sell directly and avoid dealers makes complete sense because dealers have a clear conflict of interest here. Heck, it makes it seem like we should get rid of dealers altogether since they won't in general want to sell any cars that are very novel or that require substantially less maintenance.
from the owner. cheaper and easier. avoid the dealer.
"Would you like to buy the lifetime software upgrades for only 10 easy payments of $99.95? It's non-tranferrable."
Karnal
I'm not sure the average service cost is that much less when you factor in replacing a $4000 battery pack every 8 to 10 years. Also, there are high end SUVs that cost even more than the low-end Tesla Model X at $80,000.
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
Not exactly the most rigorous analysis I've seen.
#DeleteChrome
I find dealerships very annoying because they don't want to sell you the car you want, they want to sell you one of the cars they have on the lot that day! Apparently their goal with every customer is to have them buy something the same day, not come back later to pick up the actual vehicle they wanted. Why can't I order a vehicle with everything I want from the manufacturer, and go pick it up at the plant or port of entry myself, saving the $800 in "destination fees"?
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
I'm sure that vegetables purchased from Monsanto would be healthier for you than the paint chips you must have consumed at some point prior to posting that comment.
...and the laws requiring cars to be sold through dealerships are ridiculous, BUT I can't be the only one extremely concerned about how all modern technology is becoming a set of black boxes that are made as hard as possible to maintain by anyone other than "authorised" - often not third party - repair shops. This applies for everything from cellphones to cars. To me, one of the main reasons to own an item rather than lease it is that I get the opportunity to apply either my own expertise to it or that of someone who is worthy of my business through merit, rather than through hoop-jumping compliance with manufacturer rules and licensing charges.
For example, where are the standards for electric car batteries, such that one can choose among providers, and swap them between cars? The battery pack is effectively a consumable on almost every single device manufactured. I've driven cars for a decade where I haven't had to replace any expensive parts, but I understand a Tesla battery pack would not last so long without needing replacement. This wouldn't be so bad if I could replace it like a tire/tyre, but I can't.
This whole bleating rant is a lot of noise from a tiny minority of vociferous hippies who think that alternative cars would JUST BE MAGICAL if only PEOPLE WOULD BELIEVE. They want dealers to *proselytize* electric running shoes, not simply be knowledgeable about them.
Except they do. They have less moving parts and the ones that are there don't burn their own lubricant, are closed to outside contaminates, and are not subject to nearly the same amount of heat and pressure.
Fossil fuels will increase in price again and eventually run out. This may take a long time but first the vast majority of cars will be electric hybrids and then fully electric. The one thing limiting the transition to plug in electric cars is the infrastructure of charging stations or battery exchange locations allowing long distance travel. Then again, long distance travel may done when most towns are connected by electricity powered trains and cars are only for local transportation.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. George Orwell
Well, you can order the car with everything exactly the way you want. You just need to find a cooperative dealer. And then be prepared to wait. For an import you might have to wait six to nine months to get it.
And I suppose you could spend $500+ to fly to the factory. And then gas to drive it home plus hotels and meals along the way. Or you could pay the $800+ delivery charge.
I seriously doubt..... that you know anything about maintaining cars, electric or I/C.
None of them can see the clouds; The polished wings don't care.
Industry insiders say that electric vehicles do not offer dealers the same profits as gas-powered cars, they take more time to sell because of the explaining required, and electric vehicles may require less maintenance, undermining the biggest source of dealer profits — their service departments.
Electric cars are the future, gasoline guzzling cars are not. Anybody who thinks like that should join the same support group frequented by all those people who bet their business on film cameras being the future because "it takes too long to explain to customers how them them newfangled digital cameras work". Anybody who puts in the effort to push electric cars today faces an uphill struggle but also stands a good chance to gain market share down the line at the expense of established dealers who are to short sighted to bother with new technology.
Basically, you have to understand that a dealer is (for better or worse) essentially a combination of a franchise/distributor operation.
Franchisees allow companies to expand fast and partially customize into different market niches quickly, by employing local capital and management focus because they don't have to be totally aligned with the main company. They also exist to help companies align to local laws.The down side of franchises is that their interests aren't always totally aligned with the main company.
In the beginning, car manufacturers basically needed Franchisees to grow.
Just like taxicab medallions purchased by independent drivers, franchisees put in good money for them and expected them to retain value. It's silly to think they will go quietly. It's no different than the person that worked their way through school to get a CS degree and sees their job outsourced just when they are in the middle of their career. Nobody likes being disrupted, their investment of time and money disappearing overnight. Being told to start over because you sell buggy-whips isn't a fun message to hear either.
In the end, the auto dealers will probably lose out to anti-trust, but don't expect them to go out w/o a fight. BTW, that probably is true with the CS degree holder as well, but they probably won't fight as hard as the auto dealers...
Such is the march of time.
Car dealers are the scum of the earth. When we can finally get rid of this ridiculous layer and buy goods like we buy everything else then I will be very happy.
I amazed they even know how internal combustion engines work and you expecting them to sell cars that they don't understand at all? Good luck with that because if car salesman was not a job they would be picking up your trash. They are all usually smooth taking dumb asses.
If you were to ask me what I like most about electric cars (and Tesla in particular), it wouldn't be the economic or environmental benefits, or even the technology.
It's the way they are taking a long stagnant and mostly non-innovative industry and dragging it kicking and screaming into the 21st century. If the people who constantly preach about the free market truly appreciated the concept, they would know that in a legitimately free market, you either change with the times or you get kicked to the curb to make room for those who are actually innovating.
The more they resist, the more I'm going to enjoy watching them weep and wail as they slowly become irrelevant.
Of course blame the salesman. This problem isn't just about electric car. It's also about cheaper versions of gas cars. That also includes all of the stupid "dealer add ons" they indulge in. Some of these are consumables that only last for the first year of the car and jack up the price significantly.
My favorite one is the "nitrogen filled tires". [breathes in deeply]
I was interested in a car that was already on the lot but I had to out wait the stupid salesmen on my last car for about 4 months before they actually broke down and sold it to me.
I would find it less bothersome to pay MSRP and order it directly from the factory.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
...as demand for gas burning cars drops, pinching margins on the gasoline side. At some point in the future, nobody will be buying gas powered cars at all, so dealers won't have anything to compare the electric car margins to at all.
An interesting anagram of "BANACH TARSKI" is "BANACH TARSKI BANACH TARSKI"
This is Slashdot. Any discussion of electric cars must include these obligatory posts -
"My daily commute is 762 miles. Therefore, electric cars are useless to anyone and everyone."
(Variation also acceptable: "Twice a year I drive 600 miles to Phoenix. Therefore, electric cars are useless to anyone and everyone.")
"My electric power comes from coal, therefore all electric cars are more polluting than my Grandpa's 1978 Oldsmobile Cutlass."
Costco has a terrible car sales model.
They "shop around" to local dealerships by getting them to give a quote for the requested model. Then they sell it to you at the lowest first-quote price of any local dealership, plus a little markup for Costco, of course. Lowest first-quote price. That's pants-on-head retarded. You at least should get a second round of quotes.
Oh, and the best part is that they won't even bother to get a price for you unless you first commit to completing the sale with them! So you can't even go back and say "no, sorry, that's too much, try again or I'm gone". You have to buy a car from them if you get even a single quote on any car from them. I will never use Costco "services". They're shady as fuck and aren't a good price.
Answer: Some middle men add value and some simply extract rents. Distributing and warehousing a wide variety of perishable vegetables for purchase on demand at random times is a valuable and complex service. Having a showroom to poke at cars in person adds value, but basically *everything* else a dealer does is either overpriced compared to alternatives or actively subtracts value from the car buying experience.
An interesting anagram of "BANACH TARSKI" is "BANACH TARSKI BANACH TARSKI"
Coal powered cars are a bad idea.
No they aren't. Coal can be converted to electricity at about 40% efficiency, and that can be stored in a battery and converted to motive power at about 90% efficiency, so a total of about 35%. A gasoline ICE has an efficiency of about 15%. If the electricity comes from NG, the efficiency is even higher. Also, coal is domestically produced, providing jobs for Americans. We don't fight wars over coal.
Coal is filthy, and should be phased out as soon as economically feasible. But even coal generated electricity is cleaner than gasoline for powering vehicles.
Being able to buy vegetables directly from the farmer is a great idea! We could even designate a place for local farmers to set up, like a market, for farmers... a farmer's market.
It has potential, but it needs a catchy name.
You sound like you've never heard of the independent mechanic that as far as I can tell, practically everyone who buys a used car takes it to. If it's cheap enough for someone who buys used and might not have the money for better, then it's cheap enough for someone who has the money to buy a new car too.
In reality, we don't fight wars over oil, either - we get the vast majority of our oil from ourselves, Canada, Mexico, Venezuela, and Nigeria. The Middle East is a very small supplier of oil for the US. Most of the ME oil goes to our allies in the EU; if we're "going to war" for oil, it's so our allies can have a source of oil.
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
Electric cars are too expensive and too little profit because they don't make/sell enough of them, but we won't sell them because they're too expensive and too little profit. Sounds to me like someone needs to take a baseball bat and 'explain' to a few people that they're holding up progress, and to knock that shit off before someone has an unfortunate accident. Seriously, I'm getting pretty sick and tired of the almighty dollar being the deciding factor on everything. It's not science or technology or even the rank-and-file citizens that are holding up progress in areas we need progress in, it's business that's to blame.
Are YOU using the TOOL, or is the TOOL using YOU? Think about it!
A better question. Just why is it so profitable to sell gas powered cars?
Under your proposed model, commodities would only be available for the short period of time after those farmers had harvested them. No storage, no long distance delivery. The rest of the year you do without.
The great value that our system of food distributorship in this country is that it provides a great abundance and variety of food commodities available for most of the year.
In the case of cars, the direct sales model would be preferable.
"What are you doing to make selling electric cars as profitable and painless for your dealers as selling gasoline or diesel vehicles?"
What am I doing? That's easy: I'm NOT GIVING A SHIT HOW THEY FEEL. If I want to buy one, I'll walk into a dealer, and they can take my money, or not. Salesman's not making enough money? Wah wah wah, go get a real fucking job and do something USEFUL for a living.
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
The black box situation ebbs and flows. The car diagnostics apparently used to require a specialized apparently rather large computer at a mechanic to run through paces or maybe just for the code, I'm not sure, but now a car parts store will hook a handheld device up to the car to read the codes stored in the car and give you a printout of their values and meaning for free. My brother-in-law said he could fix her Kia based on the codes and explanations, what he already knew and what he could read off the internet. She had to pay $160 bucks for two coils, but look what a search turned up. I even just put in kia coil and it offered the other search terms.
You totally misunderstand the value of forcing all oil to be sold in dollars. Since the world runs on oil, and countries must purchase oil in dollars, the countries of the world must keep a large reserve of dollars. This increases the value of the dollar, allowing us to offset by printing more without inflation. Fighting wars over oil is a very real thing. You just don't understand the mechanism of how this works obviously.
car salesman lives matter
You are welcome on my lawn.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Did you get the TruCoat?
You are welcome on my lawn.
Because they require more service than an electric car, as the article mentioned. I don't buy the argument that electrics are too different from ICE cars Most car sales people don't know much about a full featured ICE car, either. Their primary objective is to sell you something on the lot, because it has a carrying cost. Better still, lease it to you or "help" you finance it and get you to buy an extended warranty. But the big money comes when you service it.
You can make an argument that having a lot of inventory is one advantage to the dealer system. But for the most part, I think car dealers are worthless and the process of buying a car is truly insulting, even with high end cars. My next car will be a Tesla or Uber or Lyft or some combination of the above. I'm done with ICE cars and the jokers who sell them.
Imagine how much harder physics would be if electrons had feelings! -Feynman, maybe
AC is incorrect. Costco lists the price so that you can shop around. No haggling.
You sound like you've never heard of the independent mechanic that as far as I can tell
You sound even worse. An independent has to specialize in a topic, like transmissions. Would you trust him to work on the cars computer system? A dealership say Ford, has to be able to work on all aspects of fords, same with gm, chyrsler and Toyota. And stand behind their repair.
You absolutely proved him correct when you claim an independent has to specialize in a topic as narrow as transmissions. Most independent mechanics I have used have been able to work on a wide range of automobiles. There has been some very specialized work, such as with more rare hybrids like the 05-07 accord hybrid, where I have had to use a dealer in the past. But I have only had one car repair in 20 years that needed a dealer. And if dealers did not exist, the market would compensate for those rare cases in their absence.
It is funny you stand up for dealers because of their repair services, when generally that is the department people like the least at dealerships. I thought it was general knowledge to never go to a dealership for service unless your car was under warranty. They are overpriced and refuse to use after market parts.
-- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
what do you think about the argument that as cars become more and more complex, the service technicians will need to have more specialized knowledge about particular brands, and service shops will need more and more specialized equipment custom to certain brands, like diagnostic computers or similar. This is a strong argument for service shops that specialize in one or a select few OEMs. The dealership model is one way of getting this result.
They also deal with the fleet sales department rather than the retail sales department, and the fleet people just look at the numbers and figure out the dealer's markup and make a fairly quick response.
The best technique is to buy a car out-of-state though. Sales tax is paid to your state, not to the selling dealer's state, and there is no county or city sales tax in the equation. On top of that, if your state requires that the sales tax be based on the MSRP rather than on the negotiated price, this technique makes the sales tax price reflect the actual price, not an inflated MSRP.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
it would be more preferable for you, but the OEMs would prefer to keep the dealer model. unless the dealer model becomes illegal, OEMs will choose to do this.
The problem isn't coal though, it's lithium batteries recycling or the lack thereof.
"That means that the appropriate question should be directed to makers of electric cars: What are you doing to make selling electric cars as profitable and painless for your dealers as selling gasoline or diesel vehicles?"
Nope.
The appropriate question to be directed at makers of electric cars is, "Why do you need dealers?"
I could mention that dealerships are the Number 1 reason why a large segment of auto-owning population puts buying a car on about the same level as leaving your kids with a suspected child molester. However, just about anybody who has ever done business with a car dealership already knows this.
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
Because they require more overpriced service.
I don't know if Costco has changed the way they do it recently, but when I tried to use Costco's car service 5 years ago it certainly wasn't that simple. I went to Costco to check the price, and they told me I'd have to contact the Toyota dealer to get the price (and there was only 1 participating Toyota dealer in the area). I called the dealer up, and they absolutely refused to provide any pricing info over the phone. They wanted me to drive there...20 miles away. Let's just say I was less than impressed by usefulness of the service.
"That means that the appropriate question should be directed to makers of electric cars: What are you doing to make selling electric cars as profitable and painless for your dealers as selling gasoline or diesel vehicles?"
No, the appropriate question is: Why does EVERY STATE IN THE US forbid manufacturers from selling direct to the public without going through a dealer?
And the answer to that is, "Because auto dealerships, which make a lot of money, constitute such a powerful lobby that they have been able to game the system by bribing legislators to create and maintain laws that forbid direct sales."
"What are you doing to make selling electric cars as profitable and painless for your dealers as selling gasoline or diesel vehicles?"
It sounds like whomever wrote the summary is basically requesting that the electric car makers should make crappier cars, so they need more repairs, so people will go back to the dealer to get them fixed.
That sounds like a great plan.
I see samzenpus is still working hard to make the world a little worse, every single day.
Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
They also deal with the fleet sales department rather than the retail sales department, and the fleet people just look at the numbers and figure out the dealer's markup and make a fairly quick response. The best technique is to buy a car out-of-state though. Sales tax is paid to your state, not to the selling dealer's state, and there is no county or city sales tax in the equation. On top of that, if your state requires that the sales tax be based on the MSRP rather than on the negotiated price, this technique makes the sales tax price reflect the actual price, not an inflated MSRP.
In some states, like Florida, there are some significant fees to register a car that was purchased out of state.
The next time I buy a car I'm just going to walk in with a check and tell them they've got one hour to sell me the car I want and if we haven't closed a deal in sixty minutes I'm walking.
I tried that with my last purchase, and salesperson was quite amicable to the idea. Sticker price was 21K, I offered 18K, we settled on 19K out the door, which I knew ahead of time was the book value of vehicle. Easy breezy, right?
Not in the least! The back end guy was so eager to fuck me I could nearly see his hard on when I walked into his office. After going through mileage statements, warranties, and whatnot at the bottom of the stack of the requisite paperwork there was the sales agreement with the total being 22K.
It took me nearly screaming at him to tear everything up before he would give in inch. Still pissed at myself for giving in to the "mandatory" processing fee and agreeing to 19.2K.
Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
Oh, please. You could be in Kentucky or West Virginia, where the Koch brothers are experimenting with the laws.
Yeah, I would hate to live somewhere where jobs are plentiful, where the government is running a surplus ... wait, what economic problems?
The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
In reality, we don't fight wars over oil, either - we get the vast majority of our oil from ourselves, Canada, Mexico, Venezuela, and Nigeria. The Middle East is a very small supplier of oil for the US. Most of the ME oil goes to our allies in the EU; if we're "going to war" for oil, it's so our allies can have a source of oil.
If the ME didn't produce oil, your oil would cost *a lot* more since there'd be much higher global demand for it. There would also be much higher incentive to take or disrupt that supply
So yeah, it was always about the oil...
On the one hand, I'm highly skeptical that it's actually true. I mean, it's not as though the dealer is the only place you can go for car servicing even now. In fact, going to the dealer is generally considered to be what suckers do. And in terms of complexity, cars are likely peaking out--as we transition to electric, they'll get mechanically simpler. Whether the electronics are serviceable (software lockout, etc.) is an interesting question, but the only way to make independent service operations viable is to mandate that manufacturers make replacement boards and diagnostic manuals available. If we don't, manufacturers will be able to software "lock out" everybody no matter what our sales channels look like.
Even assuming it's the case that we need some mandate to make it happen, there's no reason for car *sales* to go through that channel. You just need to mandate that manufacturers make parts and manuals available to third parties on reasonable terms. The reality is that the dealers don't seem to be making much money on sales anyway these days. It's all through servicing or financing. And in exchange for that, we get a miserable, sleazy buying experience that is widely recognized to be the worst in any industry or market. So it seems clear that whatever we're trying to do, we're doing it wrong.
It seems like the simplest solution would be a ban on manufacturers offering services and parts directly to the public. That way there would be a profitable market for parts and technical manuals, but the manufacturers wouldn't have an incentive to kill off the competition. The service operations would just be customers instead of competition.
An interesting anagram of "BANACH TARSKI" is "BANACH TARSKI BANACH TARSKI"
Car Sales are another dinosaur industry vulnerable to be disrupted, just like Taxis prior to Uber.
I'm surprised that some VC's aren't already plotting their demise as we speak.
>For an import you might have to wait six to nine months to get it.
Yeah. Getting a Ford or GM from Mexico takes times. If you want a Nissan, Honda, or Toyota, well, those plants are all in the US. Hell, all three of those are within day-trip distance for me.
Buy Honda. Buy American.
ICE's are closer to 25% efficient-- the current F1 cars are pushing 40%.
you sure are big into regulation to set the rules of the game. why don't you let the market sort itself out? I think you find that it will settle to exactly where it is now. Aside from some high end boutiques, all the OEMs will sell through a dealer network. This is common not just in automotive but many industries. I'm shopping for high end stereos right now and it's the same thing.
And the car buying process continues to get easier and more transparent. sites like truecar show the price history and inventory costs of new cars. you can just open this up and show it to the dealer when discussing a fair price. And when I was shopping for cars earlier this summer, I probably went to 12 different dealers. a third struck me as way sleaze cheeze, a third were meh, and a third were really cool. i bought from a really cool dealer.
Dealers have a conflict of interest because manufacturers are dumb. Manufacturers have variable margins built into the cars that encourage sales. One would hope they line up with the maker's desires (or profits), but often they don't. And makers like GM that have $2000 rebates on everything almost all the time encourage buyers to avoid them when there isn't a sale.
Rebates are mostly just there to be an accounting trick. IIRC they let you increase your Revenue on paper and maybe take a corresponding tax deduction for the promotion.
No because you just change them out, you should put in thinner less viscous winter electrons when the cold season starts, otherwise the motors will strain more trying to the the juice flowing
Just pull the red lever all the way back https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
Obviously, add water/oil pumps and belts to the design.
I just love the "buy genuine Ford/GM/Chrysler(Fiat)/Toyota/Honda parts" thing. Ford is really pushing this with ads saying you should purchase over-priced tires, batteries, headlights, oi filters, wiper blades, belts, brake pads, oil, transmission fluids, brake fluid, etc. to ensure you get "genuine" parts for your Ford. Except that Ford doesn't make any of these parts; they source them from the same OEM manufacturers are the aftermarket guys do and them mark them up twice as much. Then the dealer sticks it to you with the labour / installation fees.
You don't need a Ford "technician" to tell you what type of tires to put on your Ford - it's written in your owners manual. Some of the OEM parts are really low quality. Ford Motorcraft spark plugs for example; use NGK, Denso or Bosch - actually anything else. When I bought my Honda, the dealer had installed really soft brake pads to improve test drive stopping performance. I had scored rotors within the first 8 months (San Francisco). I now use EBC or Hawk pads. OEM batteries are not much good in cold or hot weather (I now live in Canada). Get a DieHard or Optima. Does ANYONE use OEM branded oil?
If you aren't part of the solution, then there is good money to be made prolonging the problem
It's huge, and it's basically split between a very right and a very left wing. They're mostly economically left wing, albeit with somewhat lower taxes that they get away with because of their huge economic output. Socially they're pretty conservative, with lots of "tough on crime" laws.
It's worth noting that when they had a Republican Governor (The Governator) they ran deficits and had a softer economy in general.
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not having little explosions propelling 2000+ lbs of steel, glass and plastic.
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my brother and I went to a dealer to buy a car. He used to be a used car salesman and I wanted him with me. He commented that they were using the same tactics he used 15 years ago. Hadn't changed a bit.
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worst polluters than my Grandpa's car. That thing hasn't run since the 80s and is probably in a junk yard somewhere. At least the electric car sometimes leaves tire prints.
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they don't have good incentives for the Sales people. Microsoft had the same problem with their phone. Google/Apple gave spiffs to get sales folks to steer them to their phones. Microsoft didn't. So the Sales folks buried the Lumina into the deepest, darkest crevices of the store. Sony had the same basic problem with the PSP Go. I remember the hilarious demo units at Best Buy with no software whatsoever loaded on them. Just the menus and that was it.
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Rig count is down due to low oil prices. Supply is so much greater than supply that land storage is full and traders are paying tankers to sit idle and just serve the role of sea storage. Existing wells are running at the minimum required to cover the owning company's debt payments.
Saying the oil would cost "a lot more" if ME didn't pump is a big oversimplification. It would cost more, but the biggest problem right now is major oversupply relative to demand, so the price increase is really just ending desperation liquidation pricing.
the trouble is folks waste your time asking questions. It's right there in the summary. A good salesman could move 2 gas powered cars in the time it takes to do 1 electric. For all their bitching people enjoy wasting Sales people's time. Want to move electrics? Run a gov't program to spiff the sales man (with some new minimum wage laws so the dealers don't steal the money with pay cuts).
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We don't force oil to be sold in anything at all.
It's that the sellers of oil prefer to be paid in dollars, because then they can do something with that money which is relatively safe and secure.
In any case, the bond market is much bigger than the petroleum market, and that is the source of dollar, and euro, dominance.
| I find dealerships very annoying because they don't want to sell you the car you want, they want to sell you one of the cars they have on the lot that day! Apparently their goal with every customer is to have them buy something the same day, not come back later to pick up the actual vehicle they wanted
The reason is simple. Dealers buy cars from the manufacturer using money they borrow from banks. More cars on the lot means more loans outstanding which they have to pay interest on.
The AC makes a good point. Note that the evil countries, excepting N. Korea, are all oil producing countries that have tried to use other currencies then the US$ to sell oil. Saddam it was Euros, Gaddafi, it was a gold based currency. Iran also has been using Euros.
America gets a lot of benefits from the Petrol Dollar including printing money like crazy and running a huge debt while having a stable currency and being able to afford a huge military to prop up the Petrol Dollar.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
That is a dealership to avoid and never go to...
It has been a long time, many years, since I purchased a car in person, the last few were via e-mail...
The most recent one was at my dining room table...
They want to sell a car, they'll make it easy for me, not the other way around...
Wow, that's an interesting reading of this thread. I thought I was responding to the hypothetical idea that nobody would repair cars if we didn't have a state-mandated dealer system. Apparently not.
I think that's somewhat true, but I also think that what the dealers will look like will be somewhat different. They'll end up competing with the few OEMs (like Tesla) that control their buying experience, and frankly, the buying experience through those operations is superior. There's not a human on earth who enjoys dealing with car dealers, so as soon as any cracks in the system show, they'll have to change their ways. They definitely won't go away (for reasons you mentioned), but they'll probably start looking more like retailers and less like the hellscapes they currently are. Toyota will be saying, "We have to compete with Tesla on price and quality, but we also have to deal with the hit that comes from a miserable buying experience." The threat that Toyota will start selling directly will definitely put pressure on Toyota dealers to up their game.
I think this will be the game changer. I bought 2 of my last 3 cars through CarsDirect. Reasonable straightforward price that's easy to check, no negotiation or games. My last car was delivered to me at my office with the paperwork. If I had to guess, I'd say we're going to move more and more toward that model and the only people who haggle at the dealer are going to be the real sharks who aren't profitable to haggle with. Once that starts to happen, the incentive for having a staff of professional hagglers goes away. Eventually, I expect prices will normalize and dealers will have to differentiate on other factors.
An interesting anagram of "BANACH TARSKI" is "BANACH TARSKI BANACH TARSKI"
Dealers are very well entrenched at the local political level. Most dealers are some of the richest and most connected people in their local markets. Many states have laws written around dealers and basically granting them monopolies over car sales.
As Tesla has discovered in Texas, getting these laws removed from the books is near impossible because of how well connected dealers are.
With regard to the issue of dealers, I'm not sure that it's just electric cars they don't want to sell.
In 2013 I was in the market for a gasoline-powered automobile. Did my research, selected a make and model. It wasn't the most common car on the planet, but it also wasn't extremely rare (a mainstream Japanese car). I identified three dealerships in the metropolitan area that, according to their websites, had a model on the lot.
I could not for the life of me get them to give me a test drive. The first dealership I visited, the salesman said they'd "lost the key" to that particular car and I couldn't test drive it or buy it that day, I'd have to come back "later." (He couldn't tell me just when "later" was.) But he put on the *very* hard sell for two other models.
The second dealership, they claimed to have lost the car, period. No, not on the lot, they said. The third dealership, they claimed that I didn't really want that model, it wasn't reliable. When I pressed, they told me that their (brand new 2013) instance was in the shop, that's how bad it is. "Honestly," they didn't want to sell me the marque's "worst model." *They* were looking out for *me*, you see. Which is why they really, really wanted to put me in this *other* model in the showroom....
I finally bought one online and had it driven in from out of state. It's been a great car and performed as expected with the features I needed.
I don't know exactly what was going on when I was trying to make my vehicle purchase, but to me it screamed "conflict of interest" as they clearly didn't want to serve me, the customer, by selling me a product that I came for and that they clearly *had*.
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
Not just car sales, car manufacturing is being disrupted as we speak. Elon Musk is going to do long term damage to the car companies that refuse to move into the future. He's already hurt the sales of the high end automobile and hurt these manufacturers. The rapid fire attempts to build electric cars by the luxury brands are the signs of the damage he's doing.
These companies don't publish sales numbers but I'm willing to bet he's taken at least 1/4 of their business by how quickly they are trying to respond to a market they all said was pointless two years ago. In fact I can remember statements by Porsche a couple years ago that the electric car is a joke, bet it's not funny anymore!
I'm from Chicago but have lived in Los Angeles the last four years. It's great, and I can't imagine going back. Mistaken policies and willingness to change and try new things are FAR preferable to fees and taxes associated with cronyism and the general crookedness of Chicago. [Disclaimer: I absolutely love Chicago, I just happened to relocate based on circumstances.] There's a whole shit ton of sour grapes regarding California.
With all due respect, you moved from one ship hole to another, you don't have any reasonable basis for comparison...
Come down to Texas, see something new...
This +100.
Dealers need to step aside and get out of the fucking way of the sale. It's a stupid business model. There is no value in having a middleman in this process anymore.
There's no value in having the same business responsible for sale and service where the guys selling are not the guys servicing. There might be some value if the guys wore two hats--i.e. actual experience with the car. But ignorant salespeople don't seem uncommon. The summary mentions one buyer who knew a lot more about the car than the salesman. The last time I bought a car (used car but from a dealer), the salesman didn't even know the car had all-wheel drive, and tried to upsell an old entertainment system in a vehicle we didn't want like it was a significant feature. And that was in a *posh* neighborhood in a fairly cold climate where you could have sold the AWD.
There are other values than direct profit. Environment for one, but also the benefits of faster transit and less road congestion. All harder and more abstract to monetize than direct profit but valuable none the less.
My "genuine dealer service" accidentally put power steering fluid into my brake system ruining it.
At first they were going to fix it but once it went north of $3000, they balked and said a prior maintenance 7,000 miles previously might have put the fluid in (since i came to them for the one 3,500 miles before).
In the end, they gave me a verifiably good deal on a replacement new car when I pointed out they could fix the car for almost "free" since it was mostly labor.
Since then, I always tell the service tech this happened on a prior visit before they start and I always check the fluids before I leave the lot.
But there is nothing magical about a particular mechanic.
I agree on the warranty. Now that I've retired I will probably be exiting 'new car land' in another 5 years and be in the land of used cars again.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
Gas-powered above 60 mph.
Im sure horse dealers avoided selling cars for the same reason. Much less after-sales in terms of feed, medicine, and other supplies.
Because theoretical capitalism includes all costs - all actors are rational, and know full well the value of less tangible costs (like environmental, and worker conditions).
In theory, theory and practice are the same thing.
In practice, they are not.
Vending machines, then? I would buy one there. Or how about hiring them out for a year, then selling them as used?
It has been a long time, many years, since I purchased a car in person, the last few were via e-mail.
:-D
Same here. I decided which car I wanted, and determined exactly how much I wanted to pay, out the door. I emailed a number of dealers and explained that this was my price, and if they were willing to deal they should fax me a quote for my amount, with the key text "out the door". After doing this about six times, I got a quote from a dealer, drove down, and had the car a half hour later. They weren't real happy when they found out I already had the financing in place, but a quote is a quote.
Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
The best technique is to buy a car out-of-state though. Sales tax is paid to your state, not to the selling dealer's state
In California, where there are the most vehicles and the most drivers, you have to pay the difference in taxes when you register.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Regular maintenance, parts which wear out, and liquids which are consumed or degraded during the process of the engine running.
If the car dealerships are closed all the car salesmen will become something else salesmen. What if they end up selling computers & software? What if you have to deal with them on a regular basis? Worse yet, what if they take your boss golfing and buy him a hat?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
>For an import you might have to wait six to nine months to get it.
Yeah. Getting a Ford or GM from Mexico takes times. If you want a Nissan, Honda, or Toyota, well, those plants are all in the US. Hell, all three of those are within day-trip distance for me.
Buy Honda. Buy American.
Toyotas, Hondas, and Nissans built in North American plants aren't imports, right?
And off hand I'm not sure why anyone would want to special order a low-end, cookie cutter car like the Aveo.
Do you not test drive the car before buying it?
The control units in a car have very detailed access controls. You can read some of the values directly. For others you first must authenticate. Writing values usually always needs authentication and encryption. Some values you can only change through a firmware update. This is often possible through the bus, but needs also authentication and encryption. Unfortunately it is nearly impossible to get the right firmware in the first place. Their is no interface to read it and the chips even have special hardware protections against getting the firmware. And some values you cannot change at all, neither through the bus nor when opening the device (e.g. some error flags that when toggled will void your warranty).
Some of the devices must be registered before you can use them. Removing them without unregistering them first will increase some internal error counter. All this makes it much harder to deal with the electronics for everyone but the original manufacturer.
These companies don't publish sales numbers but I'm willing to bet he's taken at least 1/4 of their business by how quickly they are trying to respond to a market they all said was pointless two years ago
Yes, the companies do publish sales numbers. You just have to know where to look.
According to Elon Musk, Tesla sold a little over 33,000 cars by the end of Q3 this year. Cadillac sells more than that in less than two months. Lexus and Mercedes are at 249,956 and 249,890 respectively for the year through Q3.
1/4 of their business? Hardly.
Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
Yes, of course I drove the car before signing.
Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
It took me nearly screaming at him to tear everything up before he would give in inch. Still pissed at myself for giving in to the "mandatory" processing fee and agreeing to 19.2K.
No need to scream. Just say, "the agreement was 19K out the door. Not a penny more.", and walk the moment they refuse to honor that. For bonus points (and because I'm a horrible human being), tell the closer that it makes you smile thinking about him explaining to the sales manager how he let you get away that late in the deal.
Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
In a connected world, customers can pick the cars straight with the makers - the whole article is written as if the unnecessary middle-men where a show stopper. They are the ones being stopped, and what makes one wonder is that are not gone already.
-><- no
Car dealers have always been one of the least pleasant parts of car ownership, and things like consumer protection laws were a reaction to that fact. That they balk at selling electric cars -- that the economic deck is stacked against them -- means that car selling needs fundamental changes. Tesla's been insightful in their sales model -- they did their homework.
We don't force oil to be sold in anything at all.
No one is saying the US is forcing anyone to sell oil in dollars. After all, we have a clear example of a country switching oil sales to the Euro with no major consequences.
There's a simple one word answer to why car salespeople don't like electric vehicles, options. The car manufacturer sells the car and publicizes a recommended price. The dealerships are thereby very limited as to how much they can charge for the base car itself. Thus, most of their profit comes from everything else that they can sell on top of that base car, the "options". This can be fancy protective coatings, electrically powered systems (brakes, steering, windows), A/C, nitrogen-filled tires, bling hubcaps, fancy service plans, etc.
An SUV with a massive power source can be packed fill of high margin bling and options while a skimpy electric vehicle can't. Bottom line is that car dealerships and their salespeople get much more profit per SUV than they do per electric car. That completely explains the dislike for electric vehicles.
You sound even worse. An independent has to specialize in a topic, like transmissions. Would you trust him to work on the cars computer system? A dealership say Ford, has to be able to work on all aspects of fords, same with gm, chyrsler and Toyota. And stand behind their repair.
I wouldn't trust an auto mechanic to work on my cars computer system, whether shade tree or genuine Ford service. Unfortunately, by computerizing cars to the hilt, they have made it where you have to pretty much throw away a $40,000 vehicle if something goes wrong in the software or firmware. Oh, they will continue to try replacing this thing or that thing until you go broke, but it is far cheaper to just leave it on the side of the road and go buy a 1990s vehicle that somebody can service.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
As a guy who does all the maintenance on my cars myself, I'd just like to say fuck you.
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
I find dealerships very annoying because they don't want to sell you the car you want, they want to sell you one of the cars they have on the lot that day! Apparently their goal with every customer is to have them buy something the same day, not come back later to pick up the actual vehicle they wanted. Why can't I order a vehicle with everything I want from the manufacturer, and go pick it up at the plant or port of entry myself, saving the $800 in "destination fees"?
Well, duh, they are paying insurance and interest on those vehicles, as well as maintaining them, washing them, letting you drive them which lowers the value. Further, there are incentives from the factory for moving already built merchandise, rather than special order merchandise. Can you honestly say that being in the same circumstance you would not at least TRY to sell the ones on the lot first?
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
Toyota doesn't compete with Tesla. They're exactly 0 customers who say, should I get a Toyota? Or maybe I should get a Tesla?. Don't let your hard-on for Elon musk cloud to you too simple economics of the wholesaler and retailer model.
Dude, I was saYing they'd have to sell them to retailers, not that they couldn't sell them at all. The question was how to prevent a hypothetical manufacturer from monopolizing the repair business if it wanted to. Chill the fuck out.
An interesting anagram of "BANACH TARSKI" is "BANACH TARSKI BANACH TARSKI"
That's true today. Not in a few years. Don't let your hatred for Tesla blind you to the fact that the big auto companies will not be the only game in town forever. Well. ..maybe they will, but only if they succeed in keeping stupid regulations like the franchise requirement in order to minimize innovation and keep the auto retail market stagnant.
An interesting anagram of "BANACH TARSKI" is "BANACH TARSKI BANACH TARSKI"
As noted in the article, it is the service department where dealerships make their money. If they could, I bet many dealerships would forgo car sales entirely and focus on repairs exclusively. We had such a dealership where I used to like, they kept about 5 cars in stock, anything new was ordered from factory or from another dealership and 90% of their revenue came from repairs.
Ken
I can attest that the Volt's maintenance costs are limited to tires and, oil changes every year and a half. I have 60k miles on mine after 3 years of driving. The batteries are as strong as the day I bought it. Ridiculously great commuter car. Road trip car? Not so much. I rent a gas car when I go on road trips.
The 2016 Volt offers a direct drive engine so the long drive may be fine now.
We don't force oil to be sold in anything at all.
Yes, you do.
Why do you think the Shah was disposed?
Why do you think Venezuela and Lybia became blacklisted?
The Shah bluntly refused when Nixon tried to force him to only sell for dollars, Venezuela and Lybia where some of the first nations accepting Ecu (the artificial bank only european currency before the Euro), that was the start when the realy felt into disgrace.
Nixxon abandoned the gold backing of the dollar and forced all third world countries to only sell oil for dollar.
As retaliation the OPEC was formed: "you want us to take dollars, then we define how much we take!"
It was an uproar in the USA when in the late 80s more and more countries announced to accept Ecu/Euro as well.
Perhaps you like to check how much the dollar has lost versus the DM/Euro the last 30 years ... since oil is sold over 50% for Euro instead of dollars.
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
You are also oversimplification ... in fact oil production is on a rise, there is no drop:
http://peakoilbarrel.com/world...
http://crudeoilpeak.info/lates...
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
It's beyond me in this day and age of ubiquitous information available at one's fingertips that anyone can walk into a dealership and NOT know what they want to buy (or at least have it narrowed down to one or two models and/or trim levels). You should do all your research BEFORE going to the dealership. The only point of going to the dealership should be to actually drive the car and confirm or refute what you already know about it.
Dealerships HATE informed customers because it basically removes the need for a salesperson. I don't WANT some smelly guy in a bad suit trying to tell me what I want. I already KNOW what I want. The only reason I'm even there is because I can't order one from the factory directly. I have my financing worked out with my credit union before I set foot in his doorway. The salesperson's total interaction with me ought to be "Here is a filled-out build sheet for the car I want along with all options I would like. Here is the price I'm willing to pay which ensures a modest profit for you and your dealership. I will not negotiate one penny above and beyond that, nor do I want to be sold on additional options or extras I have not already specified. Please locate the car in your database. If you have one on the lot that matches it, I'll take it today. If not, please have it delivered here and let me know when it arrives. Thank you. Goodbye."
Why in the hell can't we just ORDER these things from the factory??? Oh, right...car dealerships have local politicians blocking that sort of thing. Land of the free, home of the brave-but-not-so-brave-that-we-want-actual-competition.
In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, Make us your slaves, but feed us. - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
> Yeah, I would hate to live somewhere where jobs are plentiful
California ranks 41st for unemployment. 80% of the country is doing better.
http://www.bls.gov/web/laus/la...
I suppose that if you're accustomed to the mess that California has been for 30 years, having more jobs than West Virginia seems "plentiful" in comparison. The simple fact is, few states have unemployment as bad as California does, even as California has "recovered" from third-world rates.
A good solution to that problem is to simply not live in Florida. FloridaMan is constantly in the news about something.
WARNING: The above post contains an opinion known to the state of California to cause cancer.
(sorry, couldn't resist)
..Mullah or Pope, Preacher or Poet, who was it wrote: "Give any one species too much rope and they'll fuck it up"?
Totally wrong
No transit pays for itself. Not highways, not airlines, not buses, not rail.
Corporate Welfare may be a real thing but I don't think it's quite as extensive and generous as you appear to believe. Buses and rail services may well attract a subsidy but I don't know of many subsidised airlines.* These companies exist to make money.
How do they not 'pay for [themselves]' if they're turning a profit?
* I may simply be ill-informed of course.
..Mullah or Pope, Preacher or Poet, who was it wrote: "Give any one species too much rope and they'll fuck it up"?
In Florida you pay sales tax when you register car if it isn't paid already. So much for the tax evasion schemes.
Yes sure, it is better in California, with 11-13% extra state income tax and bubbled out to stratosphere real estate prices :/ At least in Florida they have such natural phenomena as "RAIN" that makes local vegetation green. You probably are not aware about such thing in CA :/
Real estate prices are ridiculous everywhere these days, unless you live in some backwater where there's no employment. Cheap real estate isn't of much use if you're unemployed, unless you're retired.
As for rain, you sound like you've never been to northern California. How do you think all those forests grow? The pictures I've seen of Florida only show palm trees, same as southern California.
Subaru?
Maybe in Northern, but most are crowded in Southern. Last time I had phone conversation they were talking about water restrictions and some copters going over to spy who's lawn is too green ;)))
As for the employment, it depends what kind of work you do. Unqualified work is cheap in California and unemployment is high. Most likely you will get about the same close to minimum wage if you work in some retail position like Target or Walmart whatever state you are in. In Southern CA metro areas you would need to live in a shack then, and send your kids to similar public school. Sure you would earn somewhat more in Silicon Valley IT position comparing to most other places and would have bigger employment choice. But most likely not more enough to compensate for higher taxes, living costs and time spent in traffic jams.
I've never done anything with power steering fluid, so genuine questions:
What's the difference between power steering fluid and brake fluid? They're both hydraulic fluids, right. So why are they of different kinds? Are they different consistencies?
How would you check which they've put in, before leaving the lot?
Why would it require anything more than draining and flushing the brake system? I did that myself on the driveway at home when I was young and cheap. About an hour's work for an amateur.
Brake fluid is clear to brown and slick (in my car it's clear).
Power steering is reddish or light brown and thin (in my car it is reddish).
Transmission fluid is reddish or magenta and smells sweet
Oil is amber.
I tell the service rep what happened before and that I'll be checking before I leave the lot. (this is the most important part)
When done, I get the service rep and we pop the hood and check each of the fluids to make sure they look/smell/feel right (this is less important since the car is probably screwed at this point anyway).
http://www.agcoauto.com/conten...
"They design the rubber used in the braking system for high pressure sealing. Manufacturers also design this type of rubber for use only with brake fluid. Severe damage results from even the smallest amount of petroleum-based fluid added to the brake system. Oil-based fluid causes the rubber in the braking system to swell and very rapidly deteriorate.
The most common mistake is adding power steering fluid to the brakes*
power steering fluid will swell and deteriorate brake seals
Power steering fluid contamination will cause seals to immediately begin swelling. As the seals swell, they move forward and block the passages that allow the brake system to function. One example is the return ports in the brake master-cylinder. The swollen seal blocks this port and the return of fluid to the reservoir, when we release the brake pedal. "
* this is what happened to me.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
You're probably right. Which dealership do you work for, we'll come to you.
Requiem for the American Dream
Wow! Thanks for the heads up.
I wouldn't be so sure about that. I would have to imagine that Tesla has been taking sales from Lexus. The Lexus LS and the Tesla Model S are both larger sedans that are very similar in terms of price.
They also lack complicated emissions control systems, and there's no exhaust system to rust out either (may not be an issue for you depending on climate). Regenerative braking reduces wear on the brakes. The battery is obviously an expensive wear item, but even factoring that in I'm guessing the electric is still significantly cheaper to maintain.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
It's actually the network of autodealers that don't want this to change. They are the ones spearheading legislation to lock out direct to consumer sales.