Microsoft Will Resume Pushing Windows 10 To Machines With Win7, 8.1 (computerworld.com)

LichtSpektren writes: After previously apologizing on October 16th for forcing Windows 10 on some users of Windows 7 and 8.1 via the Windows Update mechanism, Microsoft disabled the default update option for Windows 10, so that users eligible for the new OS would have to opt in manually. Gregg Keizer at ComputerWorld reports today that Microsoft will soon switch the default option back to "on" again, possibly as early as tomorrow's "Patch Tuesday" update. Users who do not want Windows 10 are strongly advised to turn off automatic updating to avoid accidentally installing the OS.

Comments

Not acceptable.

[Anonymous Coward]

I may just block all MS IPs in my router. I have software that won't work with Win10.

Re:Not acceptable.

[The Real Dr John]

Microsoft now has Windows 7 users shutting off auto updates to stop this. They are getting the unintended consequences that any rational person should have seen coming a mile away. This is not going to go well for MS, and it would not surprise me if it ended up in court. They are basically turning the most used OS on the planet into an advertising platform with an app store built in. They were making a ton of money on the paid-for versions like 7, so I don't know why they let the bean counters talk them into switching revenue streams. If bundling IE got them in trouble with courts, there has to be a class action lawsuit in here somewhere, regardless of what is in the EULA.

Re: Not acceptable.

[Anonymous Coward]

Good luck. All the updates come from aikamai now.

Re:Not acceptable.

[Anonymous Coward]

Changing the EULA after the fact for something material like this should make the EULA null and void in its entirety.

But much like Sony, this is enough reason for me to never use MS products again, were I still using any.

Captcha: takers

speaks for itself

Re: Not acceptable.

[MobSwatter]

And the most successful Trojan horse award goes out to Micro$oft Windows.

Re: Not acceptable.

[MobSwatter]

Microsoft itself has also gained the award for the group of hackers that got me to contact a group of corporate class action litigators the fastest.

Re:Not acceptable.

[Anonymous Coward]

What are microsoft IPs?
I have only Linux boxes in my home network, but still I would like to add these criminal-related IPs to the black list.

Re:Not acceptable.

[Ravaldy]

The most popular browser performs automatic updates every time you open it. A/V also updates their virus library automatically. I'm not suggesting the two are the same or that one is better than the other but the product does what it does. I honestly think far more damage is done from not updating and maybe that's what the reasoning was. I too often see tech people (myself included) linger on the details that on the large scale don't matter to most.

Everything is worthy of a class action lawsuit if you spin it right but as far as I can tell most users have welcomed the change and don't give a damn about this unless its caused them issues with their PC. By now most users are used to the aggravation that comes with PCs which is why many avoid them by using tablets and mobile devices instead. Heck, I just had my OSMC on Pi 2 corrupt itself by installing updates.

About a year ago I would have drilled MS for this, but instead because they've actually shown interest in working with it's users I'm more than ever willing to see what they'll do next. MS knew this change was going to be difficult but they forced it down our throats because they feel it's the right thing to do for the future the PCs. IMHO, doing nothing was definitively not the right thing to do.

Re:Not acceptable.

[The Real Dr John]

I don't see MS doing this for the sake of users, I see them doing it because they think this will provide greater revenue streams. There is not other explanation for them pushing a change to 10 so aggressively. They need as many eyes on the app store as possible, or it isn't going to pan out.

Your instincts from a year ago were more on target.

Re:Not acceptable.

[Anonymous Coward]

Amen to that. My Windows 7 machine is saved in an image, and anytime an update (I turn those off) were to happen that I didin't authorize, I simply re-image.

Re:Not acceptable.

[Obfuscant]

Microsoft now has Windows 7 users shutting off auto updates to stop this.

I've had to shut off auto-updates for a very long time. My graduate students are VERY unhappy when they start a week-long model run and a few days later the computer has rebooted to install a needless update.

Windows 10, as I understand it, makes this problem worse.

I don't know what is in the mind of the Microsoft people. They finally get an OS that is stable enough it can run for a week without needing to be rebooted (or rebooting on its own) and they decide you have to reboot anyway.

Re:Not acceptable.

[omnichad]

I don't know what is in the mind of the Microsoft people.

It will sell more copies of/upgrades to Windows Pro than probably anything else will. Since that's the only version where you can turn off automatic updates. I don't know why CPU usage / system load isn't taken into account when scheduling even an automatic reboot.

Re:Not acceptable.

[mikael]

If you look around the web forums, you will see that laptop owners have been pulling out the Windows 10 SSD drives from their laptops for two reasons; they don't like Windows 10, and they don't want to "wear out" the OS drive if they want to resell the laptop.

Re:Not acceptable.

[mcgrew]

Tried it, hated it, went back to 7 and MS is still nagging me to downgrade to windows 10 (10 is no upgrade). What's with TFS's "will resume"? They never stopped. I'd go Linux-only except all the magazines demand a Word file, and Oo and Lo can't save one properly.

Re:Not acceptable.

[mikael]

Microsoft tried to "harmonize" their smartphones with their desktops to have a consistent user interface. If Apple and Android smartphones have an "app store" where pre-tested applications are on sale, then so must Microsoft. Then Microsoft introduced that "live tiles" interface for their smartphones to match the App pages on smartphones. Therefore, the desktop must have one too. It can't be a separate application because users may not use it. So it must be bolted onto the desktop somewhere. The only practical place is in the start pullup menu.

Since smartphones auto-update applications, then so must the desktop. One problem with desktop systems are the large botnets, malware, viruses with growth assisted by users who don't update regularly. So Microsoft decides the only solution is to forced every system to get "updates" at night. For hipsters, it's cool to suddenly discover "new features" on their phones in the morning. For anyone else who had project work running it is infuriating to suddenly find their work gone and the machine stuck in a update.

Re:Not acceptable.

[Anonymous Coward]

Maintenance is a larger issue than the app store. Until recently, Microsoft was supporting XP, Vista, 7, 8, and the server flavors of each. By transitioning 7 and 8 to 10, and having officially ended support for XP and Vista, that cuts down the number of OSes that Microsoft has to maintain to 4 instead of 8. (Server versions parallel to 7 and 8 will remain supported for a while, but with Microsoft making every effort to smooth the transition to the 10-linked server OS)

What Slashdot seems to have trouble remembering is that to Microsoft, the personal computing OS angle is marketing, their real revenue is from corporate and server OSes. Microsoft wants people accustomed to their OS so that when corporations plan what OS to buy, Windows will be the obvious choice over 80% of the time. (the other 20% is for corporation back *NIX versions, like modern MacOS, any true Unix and some distros of Linux) Microsoft also wants sysadmins to consider their server OSes more comfortable and convenient than Linux, which is often a harder sell.
Since personal computers are marketing to them, it also means that UI usage information learned from personal computers is market research. I cannot say with certainty that Microsoft is not collecting anything else, but I can understand why they make it difficult to turn off that reporting in the home version of 10.

Re: Not acceptable.

[nomel]

Or they want a unified user experience rather than the clusterfuck of UI experiences there are for the different versions, a single OS to support in the future, and everyone on that one OS so xp for 20 years doesn't happen again.

Making things not suck is another way of making money, it just requires the business to use that very rare process of "thinking ahead".

Re: Not acceptable.

[Anonymous Coward]

I have switched off the updates due to this already.

Re:Not acceptable.

[Anonymous Coward]

It will be interesting to see what happens come July/August 2016 when the upgrade from free offer is no longer available. Will MS stop bugging me to upgrade or will my Windows 7 laptop just refuse to boot to anything but a screen with a link to purchase Windows 10?

Re:Not acceptable.

[MachineShedFred]

I do too. One title is called "Windows Media Center" and it's the only roll-your-own-DVR that works with Time Warner due to Time Warner's abuse of the CopyOnce CCI flag.

Guess I'll never run Windows Update on that box ever again.

Re:Not acceptable.

[kheldan]

I'm likely a prime example of the 'unintended consequences' of their decisions: I'm still on XP, was going to go to 7 finally, but after all this, I'm going to Ubuntu instead and never looking back. I never really trusted them all that much to start with, and now it's clear they can't be trusted at all. Bye bye, Microsoft, I'll be laughing my ass off at you when you either get the living crap sued out of you, you go bankrupt, or both.

Re:Not acceptable.

[nukenerd]

None [of my Win 7 PCs] have forced it on to me. I just have to click decline every week or so

So the default is the upgrade and you must decline repeatedly to avoid it? And you find that perfectly acceptable ?

It is a pity that in being modded down as Troll (as you will be) you will slide down out of sight of many readers. It is a pity because to see an attitude like yours is itself an education in the strangeness of human nature. Unless of course you are trying to be funny.

Re:Not acceptable.

[Tharkkun]

Microsoft now has Windows 7 users shutting off auto updates to stop this.

I've had to shut off auto-updates for a very long time. My graduate students are VERY unhappy when they start a week-long model run and a few days later the computer has rebooted to install a needless update.

Windows 10, as I understand it, makes this problem worse.

I don't know what is in the mind of the Microsoft people. They finally get an OS that is stable enough it can run for a week without needing to be rebooted (or rebooting on its own) and they decide you have to reboot anyway.

You should learn how to make a local policy which you can push to all machines. No business or school should be blindly using the automatic update schedule from Microsoft. Create your own so you don't have unnecessary loss of productivity and downtime. You can't blame Microsoft for this. They only want computers more secure.

Re:Not acceptable.

[Tharkkun]

None [of my Win 7 PCs] have forced it on to me. I just have to click decline every week or so

So the default is the upgrade and you must decline repeatedly to avoid it? And you find that perfectly acceptable ? It is a pity that in being modded down as Troll (as you will be) you will slide down out of sight of many readers. It is a pity because to see an attitude like yours is itself an education in the strangeness of human nature. Unless of course you are trying to be funny.

You can also download a blocker from Microsoft.

Re:Not acceptable.

[Tharkkun]

Tried it, hated it, went back to 7 and MS is still nagging me to downgrade to windows 10 (10 is no upgrade). What's with TFS's "will resume"? They never stopped. I'd go Linux-only except all the magazines demand a Word file, and Oo and Lo can't save one properly.

It took me 30 seconds to google this. There's a registry setting to disable OS upgrades. Don't disgrace power users by being lazy. :) http://www.howtogeek.com/22855...

Re:Not acceptable.

[unixisc]

This trend of trying to converge computers and mobile devices was stupid when it started, and still is. It's spread to website developers, where you have clowns suggest having a single site for both computers and mobile devices, rather than have different sites based on the device (like m.foo.com) That's the problem when you try to improve what's already optimal, if not perfect.

In Apple's case, making OS X like iOS was totally needless - not only b'cos of the differences b/w Macbook Airs vs iPads, but also due to the fact that OS X is an OS on x64 (and PowerPC before that) and iOS is an OS on Apple's ARM compatible CPUs. Only technical reason I can think of to converge them is if Apple decided to make their laptops and desktops based on the A9s rather than Intel's core processors. Since they're not doing it, what was the point?

In Microsoft's case, it was even more inexplicable. They had Windows 7, which was perfect. The right thing to have done would have been to make Windows 8 (w/o the desktop) for just the tablets and phones, and put the Windows 8 kernel under Windows 7. Ideally, brand them differently, like Apple did, or do something like KDE did. But even if not doing that, they should have just left Windows 7 as the interface for laptops, changing only the kernel beneath but leaving the userland unchanged. And maybe changing the model for application development.

Something like the current Windows 10 interface would have been ideal for hybrids, but the original 7 and 8 could have stayed on their respective platforms

Re:Not acceptable.

[nukenerd]

I don't know what is in the mind of the Microsoft people. They finally get an OS that is stable enough it can run for a week

Hold it there, you have answered your own question. Windows 7 would have been good enough for many people for many years to come (as Windows XP was), which means Microsoft would not have sold as many copies of new versions as they would have liked.

So MS "upgrade" you to something crappy and at the same time steer you towards a rental business model by getting people accustomed to the idea of them controlling your PC or other device. Rental is their wet dream because it gives them predictable income for ever without necessarily having to develop anything new ever again.

A bit unfair to MS to say about Win7 being stable enough to run for a week. You're maybe thinking of Win95 which, by Microsoft's own later admission, would have inevitably crashed after about 20 days (AFAIR), a fact that was never discovered by anyone at the time because it would always crash for some other reason long before it got to the 20 days.

Re:Not acceptable.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a minor annoyance, not perfectly acceptable, but carry on misinterpreting people due to your biases.
You've probably been in the constantly-complaining Slashdot bubble for far too long.

Re:Not acceptable.

[JMJimmy]

They're also running out of features that both people and businesses will pay for in an upgrade. By changing revenue streams they gain the people who won't pay and make the clueless happy with a few cosmetic updates/bug fixes. The reality is though the window is wide open for Linux to come storming in if they can get their act together.

Re:Not acceptable.

[gweihir]

Indeed. And I, for one, will not update to Win10 before Win7 goes out of extended support. There is just too much greed and disrespect for the user involved in it. With a bit of luck, Windows will be irrelevant by then anyways.

Re:Not acceptable.

[gweihir]

They still view this as a desktop-only OS where the computer gets shit down daily. I had some computations running weeks for my PhD, and I never even considered using Windows for that. It was and still is still a glorified toy.

Re:Not acceptable.

[dpidcoe]

I have 5 windows 7 machines, and of those one of them (a laptop) continues trying to force me to update to windows 10 to the point that it's already reserved several gb of the (very limited) ssd for the download. It's especially annoying because it'll attempt to resume the download at random times, and since it's a laptop it's not always on the most stable of internet connections.

Two of my other machines have attempted to download it, but I actually use those enough that I spent the time scrubbing out all traces of the windows 10 advertising updates and blocking them as best I could. So far those machines haven't been bothered, but they're also a few months behind in normal updates (it's set to manual currently) so I can't say for sure how affected they are.

Re:Not acceptable.

[Ravaldy]

That would be the best way for MS to kill it's end user business so I don't foresee any of that happening. They won't do it for the simple fact that to stay in the end user market you need to give products at no or very low charge with little to no inconvenience.

MS tried to stick to a model (buy/own a product) that was antiquated by Google's model (ad supported). Google instead offers everything at no charge while making money off the ads they push in your face. Users have embraced this model (even if most claim they hate it). For that reason MS is changing it's offering by monetizing through ads + a cut of app sales. Some will argue that MS is late to the game but I believe they resisted the change because they though people would go back to owning software. Corporations still try to own software but it's becoming more difficult. As an IT leader it can be very difficult to find an ROI on a product you pay for on a monthly basis.

So at the end of the day these changes are the result of what users want (not us the techies).

Re:Not acceptable.

[Ravaldy]

I don't see MS doing this for the sake of users, I see them doing it because they think this will provide greater revenue streams

MS is doing what it needs to in order to maintain it's offering alive. The competition is undercutting them with a $0 up front cost. All they are doing is responding by going after the same revenue stream.

Google employs the same strategy. Why is it ok for them to do it and be the most popular device choice but when MS does it it's a sin?
I'm confused by the double standard.

Re:Not acceptable.

[Anonymous Coward]

Been there done that. Windows does show a helpful 10 minute warning before killing your program in the middle of Sunday night. But camping in the office over the weekend isn't practical.

Re:Not acceptable.

[The Real Dr John]

You have to be kidding. MS makes a computer operating system. Google is running a search engine. MS has a huge existing user base of desktop computer users. How is it not obvious that there are huge differences? I can't just go to another operating system the way I can go to a different search engine, like Duck-Duck-Go. I would need to wipe my hard drive and start over to go to a different OS.

MS does not need to imitate, it could actually innovate. If it wanted to.

Re:Not acceptable.

[justthinkit]

I'm curious what Microsoft would do if you deliberately reduced disk space to less than it needed for the upgrade.
(1) Would it still download it?
(2) Start the upgrade process?
(3) What about if you made it so there was not enough space to download the Windows 10 update -- would it try anyway?
(4) ...and fill up the drive?

Any gross incompetence would make future class action lawsuits easier to win.

Now I'm picturing a chron job that automatically fills up most of the drive just before Windows Update normally runs, as a counter-measure. With a second chron job that runs an hour after Windows Update to delete the temp files. Boy will this all be a world of fun!

Re: Not acceptable.

[Anonymous Coward]

No other explanation? Seems to me that they want to avoid the windows xp thing where they have to keep supporting it way past its prime. Yeah people are "xp was good enough" etc, but it held back the industry hardcore, especially in terms of security. We already have people falling into the "7 is good enough!" as if security was solved forever with its release.

Re:Not acceptable.

[Anonymous Coward]

He's a professor, not an IT guy.
It's why colleges have an IT department.
You're yelling at the wrong person.

Re: Not acceptable.

[Anonymous Coward]

If your smart enough to need to run "week long model runs" then you should be smart enough to change the update setting to not reboot automatically...

Re:Not acceptable.

[Anonymous Coward]

In Apple's case, making OS X like iOS was totally needless

Huh? They're NOT the same. Some UI elements are converging a bit, but not the same exact interface on both, like Windows does/did.

That's arguably why iPhone (and later the iPad) succeeded, long after e.g. Microsoft had tablets... because a DIFFERENT UI was used for the different type of hardware.

Re:Not acceptable.

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

I doubt Windows as a desktop OS will be irrelevant by then, but at this point I'm wondering whether it will have changed strategy fundamentally and I suspect Microsoft will probably have changed leadership.

The interesting question to me is whether by that time (a little over four years from now) trying to make money primarily via advertising and marketplace schemes will still be a viable strategy. It's hard to say as a technical person who knows a lot of other technical people, but the sense I get from not-so-technical friends is that these models are overstaying their welcome. Even non-geeks are getting fed up with the ads and tracking everywhere and starting to expect ad blocking and privacy features as standard. Even non-geeks are getting fed up with locked-in walled gardens and forced obsolescence of apps and the forced upgrade treadmill, too.

I suspect Microsoft have made a strategic error in chasing after those models now. Just like the Internet and mobile, they're several years late to the party and everyone else is already thinking about leaving. The irony is that the most likely place for those customers to go to is back to a world where you pay real money for things that are actually good, and Microsoft could have been there waiting to welcome them home.

Re:Not acceptable.

[metrix007]

I have software that won't work with Win10.

No you don't. Name it.

Re: Not acceptable.

[Anonymous Coward]

How is this any different from OSX prompting me to upgrade every time they release something?

Re:Not acceptable.

[WaffleMonster]

MS tried to stick to a model (buy/own a product) that was antiquated by Google's model (ad supported). Google instead offers everything at no charge while making money off the ads they push in your face. Users have embraced this model (even if most claim they hate it). For that reason MS is changing it's offering by monetizing through ads + a cut of app sales. Some will argue that MS is late to the game but I believe they resisted the change because they though people would go back to owning software.

MS is in the process of killing themselves because they are unable to understand Google is a search engine and Windows is an operating system.

So at the end of the day these changes are the result of what users want (not us the techies).

Wrong, nobody wants it.

Re: Not acceptable.

[Anonymous Coward]

The future of PCs? How many people who click upgrade and have no idea what they are doing (I'm lookin' at you grandma/pa) will end up with a bricked system? How many will bother getting it fixed when their phone "just works".

How many will successfully upgrade only to have Microsoft remove a working driver in favor of a wrong driver? How many will get it fixed?

How many will buy another Windows PC when they read about the new Zero-Privacy policy that is being pushed?

Microsuck isn't helping the PC industry at all... they are killing it.

Re: Not acceptable.

[Anonymous Coward]

Web developer here. I have to maintain a 90s style static site. I have implemented quite a bit of automation and caching via PHP. Management refuses to spring for a Web host that provides stuff like database servers. As this is public sector aNY adied costs areally too much (labor doesn't count). This site consists of hundreds of pages for 3 dozen departments and probably 1000s of PDF documents.

You want me, as a one man show, to maintain two of these? Responsive design is a godsend.

Re:Not acceptable.

[WaffleMonster]

MS is doing what it needs to in order to maintain it's offering alive. The competition is undercutting them with a $0 up front cost. All they are doing is responding by going after the same revenue stream.

Google employs the same strategy. Why is it ok for them to do it and be the most popular device choice but when MS does it it's a sin?
I'm confused by the double standard.

I see this line of argument everywhere in this industry.

Every indefensible action is justified by saying "they do it too".

And god forbid you don't enumerate everyone and everything else that "does it too" you are accused of being a shill for god knows what or double standards.

This industry is full of children who never got past that phase of crying "BUT MOOOOM... Johnny did it too!!!!!1!!!"

There is NEVER a valid excuse for disrespecting your customers.

Re:Not acceptable.

[dpidcoe]

It would also thrash your ssd something terrible :P

Re:Not acceptable.

[Darinbob]

I sense a bias towards Microsoft. This is clearly unacceptable behavior for any reasonably ethical company, yet you defend these actions.

Re:Not acceptable.

[Rudisaurus]

You can't blame Microsoft for this. They only want computers more secure.

That's all they want? You really think that?

I call bullshit.

Re:Not acceptable.

[Darinbob]

With antivirus you can almost always opt out, and yet their database upgrades are essential to the proper functioning of the key features. I've never seen an antivirus do more than request that you install or pay for a new upgrade itself (as separate from malware database updates). For Windows, you do not need to upgrade for the operating system to keep working properly. Nothing breaks if you don't upgrade it, you still get security updates if you opt out of Windows 10, etc. There is no valid comparison between an antivirus database upgrade and an operating system upgrade here.

For Windows, doing nothing was the right approach when the only alternative they came up with was to ignore the users and go full steam ahead with their smartphone like operating system. Microsoft has a very long history of removing options from users, each new release has less customization ability. I've never seen any hint that they are willing to work with users except in the case of a major publicity backlash. Their whole attitude is that they are smarter than we are and we should just sit back and be grateful to accept their lame offerings. They know that there is nothing useful in Windows 10 that anyone on Windows 7 or 8.1 would want (Cortana? Give me a break), so they are resorting to unusual marketing tactics. This may be the right thing for the future of "Microsoft dominated PCs" but it is not the right thing for their customers.

Re:Not acceptable.

[Darinbob]

Is anyone buying apps from the Microsoft store? The last I looked they were all amazingly stupid, broken, or stupid and broken. They're like smartphone apps but dumber (at least with a smartphone the mobility convenience is useful, but on a desktop to have an app that is not as good as the same thing on a web page is just silly. Maybe it makes sense on a tablet, but who cares about Windows on a tablet, and why should desktop users be punished because of it?

Re:Not acceptable.

[Darinbob]

Who said it's ok for other companies? Apple gets away with it because it has a fanboy army. Google gets away with it because they're the anti-Microsoft.

(and with my free or low cost OSX upgrades I have seen zero advertisements)

Re:Not acceptable.

[Darinbob]

My smartphone most certainly does not auto-update anything.

Re:Not acceptable.

[Anonymous Coward]

I think it's even more insidious that just the advertising. This is straight-up surveillance software to be installed on as many systems as possible. I've never seen such a push to shove some software down people's throats. "Free" upgrade? Immediately suspicious. Updates designed to trick users to upgrade or even auto-upgrading them? That crosses the line.

I don't trust Win10 at all. Win7's trustworthiness is also now highly suspect since they've been backporting all kinds of nefarious "telemetry updates" or whatever they've renamed them to now.

Re:Not acceptable.

[reboot246]

I've used numerous computers for years and I've never shit down one yet. There's a small room not far from me that is meant for that kind of activity. I shudder to think what the inside of a computer would look like, much less smell like, after you've shit down it multiple times.

Just joking!!

Re: Not acceptable.

[RightwingNutjob]

It's not. That's why you don't run consumer-grade Apple or Microsoft for mission-critical applications where "surprises" are not in the plan. And if you don't run it on the real stuff, why does your personal box need to be subjected to the same nonsense?

Re:Not acceptable.

[arglebargle_xiv]

One of the forced-updated components has just appeared. Folks, block KB3112336:

This update enables support for additional upgrade scenarios from Windows 8.1 to Windows 10, and provides a smoother experience when you have to retry an operating system upgrade because of certain failure conditions. This update also improves the ability of Microsoft to monitor the quality of the upgrade experience.

I'm sure there'll be more to come...

Re:Not acceptable.

[arglebargle_xiv]

MS is in the process of killing themselves because they are unable to understand Google is a search engine and Windows is an operating system.

This is the perfect one-sentence expression of everything that's been wrong with Microsoft's Windows strategy in the last five years (at least).

Re:Not acceptable.

[arglebargle_xiv]

You can also download a blocker from Microsoft.

The blocker, called WUBI, isn't available from Microsoft but is provided by a third party. You can download it here.

Re:Not acceptable.

[arglebargle_xiv]

There's a registry setting to disable OS upgrades.

... which random other parts of Windows quietly re-enable when you're not looking, sometimes as often as every few hours. So yes, it's optional and can be disabled, except that it's not, and can't.

Re:Not acceptable.

[Mashiki]

If you live in Canada or the EU, doing so make the EULA null and void. The user is required to be presented with a new agreement, and in some cases where collection of private information happens it still makes the new agreement void because you can't waive rights guaranteed under law. Not sure on the EU with that one though.

Re:Not acceptable.

[Anonymous Coward]

a) what the hell are you doing week long model runs on Windows for?? What are you some kind of masochist? For multiuser models on a high-end workstation renice + auto-nice-daemon (and) + GNU Screen on Linux is the only way to go..... After the initial one time learning curve and setup it's all. just. so. easy. (I'm not just some zealot, I'm running long running model jobs on several thousand cores every day for many years. my-time efficiently too)

b) if you must - really must - stay on Windows 7 Pro for this, go in to the group policy editor (gpedit.msc) and find the enable/disable switch for automatic reboots after automatic updates. A little targeted web search will tell you the place. But you'd have to be mad to keep on with that setup, mad I tell you.

Re:Not acceptable.

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, Windows 10 Pro does not allow you to shut off auto-updates. It just allows you to delay when they are applied, per-update (not as a general rule), up to a few weeks. Only Enterprise gives some (not complete) control over whether (not just when) the update gets applied.

Re:Not acceptable.

[ct_zero_interupt]

from the following link on Telstra website:

" If you have or are planning to use a Telstra USB 4G (320U) or Telstra USB 3G (312U) on a PC currently running Windows 10, please note that the Telstra Connection Manager software is currently incompatible with that operating system."

upgrade to win 10 and your internet stops

https://crowdsupport.telstra.c...

Re: Not acceptable.

[dbIII]

Or they want a unified user experience rather than the clusterfuck of UI experiences there are for the different versions

Find the control panel and burrow down to one of the admin tools to go through the full range of the clusterfuck of UI experiences still present on Win10. There's still a bit of NT 3.51 lurking inside.
Based on that, does your suggestion make any sense at all?

Re:Not acceptable.

[dbIII]

I've had to shut off auto-updates for a very long time. My graduate students are VERY unhappy when they start a week-long model run and a few days later the computer has rebooted to install a needless update.

If something takes so long why are they using something with as much overhead as MS Windows to run it? The oil and gas industries never left *nix for the time consuming stuff for that reason.

Re:Not acceptable.

[dbIII]

It's spread to website developers

My bank's site now has the transaction stuff appear in a small window with scrollbars as a consequence. A desktop user now has to scroll both down and across to be able to see the "cancel" and "ok" buttons.

Re:Not acceptable.

[dbIII]

Another way of looking at it:
With all the malware, spam and popups out there there are many computers that get shit down daily.

Re:Not acceptable.

[rtb61]

Many places have point of sale laws. If the conditions of contract are not clearly established at the point of sale, they do not exist. This is reasonable because, you have the cost of shopping, going to the store, getting the product and returning home and in the case of software installation costs. Any agreement post the purchase is invalid, as in sound contractual terms, they should reimburse your costs associated with the purchase and the return, when you are presented new conditions that you disagree with. This includes documentation inside the box, let alone scattered across the internet. They are basically just putting up a legal bluff, in most countries they are screwed and they know it, they are just fending it off by giving a back door to you via their software to your government. They would lose a class action law suit if brought against them in the right jurisdiction, especially say the UK or Australia with far stronger consumer rights laws eg https://www.accc.gov.au/consum... (what American companies are allowed to get away with is just mind boggling, now wonder they wanted to force crappy laws US on Australia via the TPP, the Toilet Paper Protocol, named so for what it does to countries constitutions.)

Re:Not acceptable.

[Anonymous Coward]

Then install Linux, install Virtualbox, setup a Win 7 VM, install Office on it and hey presto Word on Linux. It's not difficult. I've been Windows free as a main OS on all my PCs since 2007 and as I'm not a gamer I have missed... nothing! But I've learnt a lot. I've actually learnt a lot about how poor Windows is as an OS and now look on it and those that have to support it with sympathy.

And I feel quite comfortable that on my current setup, MS can go nowhere near me as the Windows 10 upgrade refuses to upgrade any of my Win VMs.

It may not be the year of Linux on the desktop, but the % of the population it is now a viable option for is growing exponentially now that Win 10 is out.

Re:Not acceptable.

[Anonymous Coward]

They had Windows 7, which was perfect.

I think you misspelled "Windows 2000"

Re:Not acceptable.

[dave420]

Really? You see no benefit of moving users to a more secure operating system other than making money from the store?

Re:Not acceptable.

[dave420]

"Nobody" wants it? Really? That's what you came up with?

Hint: If you find yourself making generalisations, your argument probably needs work.

Re:Not acceptable.

[dave420]

It's almost as if you have no idea that Google provides a lot more than a search engine. Hint: they have their own operating systems, and that is directly comparable to Microsoft, who also sell operating systems.

It's not 2001 any more. You've got a lot to catch up on.

Re:Not acceptable.

[The Real Dr John]

I was talking about Google's search engine, not the Chrome OS. Look, if you like the idea of an OS as a service with ads and tracking, great, but I don't. Lot's of people don't.

Re:Not acceptable.

[The Real Dr John]

They could have done the extra security without the user unfriendly forced updates and ads and tracking. When Windows 7 users are forced to shut off auto updates, that makes computers less secure, not more secure. I will never switch from an OS I own (Windows 7 ultimate) to one that is an ad driven service. You are welcome to.

Re:Not acceptable.

[Karlt1]

where you have clowns suggest having a single site for both computers and mobile devices, rather than have different sites based on the device (like m.foo.com) That's the problem when you try to improve what's already optimal, if not perfect.

It's really not that hard to have one website for desktop and mobile. My website design skills suck and I can make one website that looks and works well on both with Bootstrap.

But when you have different offerings you are stuck with the mushy middle like the Google Nexus 7. Desktop websites aren't really always usable but mobile websites look weird on it. By default,, Chrome on Nexus sends a mobile browser user agent. A responsive website scales appropriately.

Re:Not acceptable.

[Anonymous Coward]

I've had multiple computers ranging all the way back to Windows XP. None of them have nagged me more than clicking close (often not even) on a small popup balloon very rarely (like weeks).

One machine I went into Windows Update and Hid the Windows10 upgrade like I could with any other update just to see if I could. It's not showed up since.

Re:Not acceptable.

[Liquid Len]

My graduate students are VERY unhappy when they start a week-long model run and a few days later the computer has rebooted to install a needless update.

Well, unless there is a critical piece of software you absolutely require, have you considered that maybe Windows may not be the right OS for graduate students to use, especially for week-long runs ? Mine exclusively use linux for their scientific work (as I do), and I've been happily doing this for years.

Re:Not acceptable.

[Ravaldy]

(and with my free or low cost OSX upgrades I have seen zero advertisements)

Some free apps have adverts present. They also piggy back off on the store sales which in my opinion should be enough for MS too but I'm assuming they are offering their devs the opportunity to monetize their dev work. Can't blame MS for giving devs an opportunity to monetize their work while providing free services

Re:Not acceptable.

[Ravaldy]

The are plenty of good applications. The fact that companies can easily distribute their PC software without having their own proprietary download site or installer makes it a much better experience for the users. Sure, the content on the app store isn't perfect yet but the ratings are coming in and soon you'll have a very nice eco system that is safer than downloading a random .exe off a site that adds it's malware to it.

Re:Not acceptable.

[hucker75]

Then update your software.

Re:Not acceptable.

[Ravaldy]

With antivirus you can almost always opt out,

First off they made a mistake as quoted: "this was a mistake and we are removing the check".
The only systems I've seen this happen on is the systems for which I had registered. I could not find anything confirming my finding other than my own experience with 5 PCs.

From the article:

Our own testing shows that, yes, the optional update is getting chosen by default, and that's not supposed to happen to optional updates.

For those not wanting to make the switch to Windows 10 just yet, all is not lost; the installer does require human intervention to actually proceed

So sounds like most here are crying over spilled milk since it didn't actually install automatically. People miss understand "push" with "force update".

For Windows, doing nothing was the right approach when the only alternative they came up with was to ignore the users and go full steam ahead with their smartphone like operating system

False, they used tones of user feedback as well as a voting system to decide what features to add, improve and remove. User feedback was a huge part of MS's success with Windows 10.

Microsoft has a very long history of removing options from users, each new release has less customization ability.

Also wrong. MS has been known to support legacy software and hardware for a very long time IMO to their own detriment. 16 bit apps are still supported in the 32 bit version of their OS and 32 bit in the 64 bit. There are banks and retail chains that run on 25 year old on Windows 7. So you claims of cancelling support is far fetched to say the least.

I've never seen any hint that they are willing to work with users except in the case of a major publicity backlash

It's ok that you aren't aware of the large support MS has gotten from it's users during Windows 10 BETA. This is where you get involved with any of their product. http://connect.microsoft.com/

They know that there is nothing useful in Windows 10 that anyone on Windows 7 or 8.1 would want (Cortana? Give me a break), so they are resorting to unusual marketing tactics

Better H/W support, better usage of h/w resources, better performance, much faster start time, integrated app store, Edge, IE support (for legacy), removal of the infernal Metro interface (available for those who like it or use a touch device). The list is actually very large. They finally removed Media Center and floppy drive support.

I don't mean to be rude but you appear ill informed on Windows 10. It's ok for you to hate it but at least don't make it blind hatred.

Re:Not acceptable.

[Ravaldy]

Are you sober. I see no arguments, just rambling of a drunk hobo with a sign "save Jesus".

There is NEVER a valid excuse for disrespecting your customers

Your I'll informed on the issue. RTFA and come back when you know what your talking about.

Re:Not acceptable.

[Ravaldy]

MS is in the process of killing themselves because they are unable to understand Google is a search engine and Windows is an operating system.

You opinion isn't fact. Their revenues tell a different story. They brought in 6 billions more in 2015 than in 2014. Stop grabbing fictional facts from your butt hole.

Re:Not acceptable.

[Ravaldy]

You base your argument on incorrect facts? You just a Ill informed as he is. Lookup MS quarterly revenues on Google, Bing or whatever else you want to use. They all yield the same results clearly stating MS is doing better than ever.

Re:Not acceptable.

[Ravaldy]

What about Android? You are commenting on a thread you don't even understand. MS has a marketing strategy that looks at what users do, not what they used to do.

Today users search the web, install software, chat, talk, watch video, work, play... MS is saying all devices are equal with one OS across all of them. Desktop devices will have more power than hand held devices but the feel and capabilities won't be limited to desktop. IMO it's the right way to go because one device doesn't fit all but one highly compatible OS does. It's their best way to convince users to move over to their mobile platform.

Re: Not acceptable.

[Anonymous Coward]

Stupid aikamai and their 1ms away CDN flooding my 100Mb connection during Windows Updates.

Re:Not acceptable.

[The Real Dr John]

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2...

MS is never going to make major inroads into the phone market, but they will lose more of their huge desktop customer base. They are about to lose me and I have been using their products since MS DOS.

Re:Not acceptable.

[Darinbob]

"Apps"? I have no apps on OSX. I have applications. There is no advertising anywhere on the OSX machine I use. Maybe on the apple store, but I never go there except for the "upgrade" tab, and I don't even have an apple ID and never will have one.

Devs have always been able to monetize their work on Windows. We don't need some idiotic ad-centric model to support cheap ass broken apps There are millions of apps on smart phones, but only 10 are ever worth using. Why would we want to support those lame apps through the cesspool of the advertisement model? If you're on Windows you may as well use a web browser because all of the apps I ever saw on Windows did not work as well as the same thing done in a browser. Even the Bing on the web works better than the Bing app from Microsoft, it's as if Microsoft went out of its way to make the worst possible sample apps (but more likely assigned interns to write them).

Re:Not acceptable.

[Darinbob]

Name one good "Metro" app. It has to be good, and it has to do more than the same thing in a web browser. Even Microsoft was not able to do this with its own sample apps.

Re:Not acceptable.

[Ravaldy]

https://www.microsoft.com/en-u...

Look for yourself. There's plenty. They all work great on mobile and desktop. I used the facebook, Netflix, Kodi remote, games...

Bunch of stuff that works great for touch and non touch.

It has nothing to do with Metro.

Re:Not acceptable.

[Ravaldy]

Devs have always been able to monetize their work on Windows

Low cost software is often pirated or simply replaced with larger packages that cost more but do more regardless of the user's actual needs.

There are millions of apps on smart phones, but only 10 are ever worth using

Another empty statement. Your on a roll

Why would we want to support those lame apps through the cesspool of the advertisement model

The review system takes good care of that. As the user base increase so does the cleanliness.

If you're on Windows you may as well use a web browser because all of the apps I ever saw on Windows did not work as well as the same thing done in a browser

You keep repeating yourself but it looks like you haven't used the app store in months. It's new so it's content is growing in quantity and quality. Netflix was crappy too when it first came out. Look at it now. You got to let it grow and by the looks of it you haven't looked at it since release in July.

I won't argue that there are some apps that attempt to replace web sites and do a poor job at it (Android, IOS and Windows Mobile all have that problem) but there are also great news apps, money helpers, todos, calendars... and the list goes on.

What I foresee is that all apps will be purchased from a central location no different than games on Steam. It's a great model that just works.

Re:Not acceptable.

[Ravaldy]

MS is never going to make major inroads into the phone market, but they will lose more of their huge desktop customer base

Your starting to sound like the previous MS CEO. "iPhones will never pickup pace".

MS may be way behind in the mobile market but marketing shifts are expensive and take years to execute on. Considering their big push just started last year, I would bet it's too early to predict their future in mobile let alone their future all together. You sound very bitter at MS which makes me wonder why you bother using their products. Oh, let me think. You have no choice. Someone as angry as you would not force themselves to use a product unless it filled a niche they could not easily avoid.

Re: Not acceptable.

[macs4all]

It's not. That's why you don't run consumer-grade Apple or Microsoft for mission-critical applications where "surprises" are not in the plan. And if you don't run it on the real stuff, why does your personal box need to be subjected to the same nonsense?

Or, like with Windows, you simply turn OFF the Auto Updates in OS X in App Store Preferences. In fact, the control is somewhat more fine-grained than in Windows.

Re:Not acceptable.

[The Real Dr John]

I have used Windows since the first version for scientific manuscript and figure content production. I have about $20K worth of Windows software ranging from Adobe Creative Suite to ImagePro Plus from Media Cybernetics. I also use Office 2010 for manuscript production because most publishers require it.

Yes I am very upset with a company I have supported for years. With Windows 8 it became apparent that they think desktops are going away. We have been in the so-called post-PC era for over a decade now, and there is no sign yet that desktops are going away because they are what people use to do work.

I don't want an "OS as a service" that is designed for phones, and with ads and an app store. I also greatly dislike the loss of control over updates and the flat 2D look that was meant for mobile devices. So yes, I am very upset with a company that I have supported with my business for decades.

Linux Mint is sounding better all the time, since I can run Windows programs in a virtual box. If that is where MS wants to drive its longtime customers, so be it.

Re:Not acceptable.

[macs4all]

Netflix was crappy too when it first came out. Look at it now.

It's STILL crappy. Seriously, If Google was as lame a search tool as the Netflix front end on my TV, Alta Vista would still rule the internet.

Re:Not acceptable.

[Anonymous Coward]

I've had to disable automatic updates to one of my Windows 7 machines last March after it repeatedly tried to download an update and it would fail then shortly later attempt to download and install the update again. I read the MS knowledge base about this update and the only explanation they offer is I am dual booting this machine with Linux or using a Linux bootloader. From the responses, it sounds like this isn't the only reason it is failing as some people posted comments such as "what is Linux?" and "What is a bootloader?" With Windows 10 offering automatic updates and spying on me, I have no intentions of upgrading to Windows 10. What is interesting is this machine that allegedly is dual-booted with Linux or has a Linux bootloader has the prompt to update to Windows 10 while one of my other machines that really is dual-booted with Linux and I hardly boot to Windows 7 doesn't have the icon trying to get me to boot to Windows 10. I think this will cause more security problems since it has been reported that certain updates to Windows 7 and Windows 8/8.1 machines also have had spying software installed as part of required updates. Users will have to not only disable automatic updates but also wait for online sources to report that recent updates are actually spyware and Microsoft will probably just add this spyware into important updates that actually do fix security flaws in an attempt to force users to install this spying software. I'm not considering removing Windows 7 from my machines and when buying new machines I will simply remove the Microsoft OS and install Linux. I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft makes it impossible for people to remove pre-installed Windows 10 to new computers realizing some users my uninstall Windows 10 and install Linux or a previous version of Windows.

Re: Not acceptable.

[Anonymous Coward]

That's exactly what happened to one of my laptops. It uses ION and Windows 10 would forcefully install its own driver then complain there were issues with the GPU. I had to switch to Enterprise in order to prevent automatic driver fetching from Windows Update and automatic installation of devices. Microsoft has quite a bunch of idiots in its Windows team

Re:Not acceptable.

[Slashdot Junky]

A side from believing that Microsoft has long been lost since they really started losing market share in various spaces to a long list of vendors, products, and services and not being the company bringing new offerings to market first, it is a need to move to a better revenue model that is what motivates them now.

Companies of all types and sizes sold something to a stream of customers. This model works as long as they keep coming in sufficient numbers. I think companies in the computer and even consumer electronics sectors eventually realized that there isn't a reliable need to replace. What we have now still serves the need. So, they needed to move to model such as subscription with a reliable revenue stream.

Again, I think Microsoft is lost. They seem to approach business strategy by copying the models of other supposedly successful companies without consideration of long-term impact to both the customer and their own business. I believe a free model wrapped in ads, data gathering and selling, and app store cuts is not the right fit for a desktop operating system. I especially believe forcing a user to upgrade to Windows 10 is wrong and a mistake. They need to leave my Win7 install alone. I have used Win8 and Win10 and want neither.

Re: Not acceptable.

[Slashdot Junky]

You apparently haven't spent enough time around or supporting end users that are both smart and unable to understand and do simple tasks on the computer. They are tools to most people. I was once surprised when an engineer, even the young ones that grew up with tech everywhere, needed help for something simple enough where only reasoning through was needed. I am no longer surprised, because it only comes easy mostly to those of us working in IT.

Re:Not acceptable.

[goarilla]

I have the feeling that it also sometimes wakes the machines from sleep to resume the download.

Re:Not acceptable.

[Ravaldy]

I think companies in the computer and even consumer electronics sectors eventually realized that there isn't a reliable need to replace

I don't disagree with this but in many cases I find companies try to convince companies to stay on a subscription system for different reasons. Ultimately it's to fund the continued R&D on said software. The challenge comes when company or individual "A" is satisfied with the product features and no longer needs improvement but rather just security and bug updates as well as product support. Unfortunately software makers do no branch their projects that way because it adds a lot of overhead as well as complications to the development process.

There are industries for which it's difficult to justify the larger fee but without it the company folds and the software support completely disappears. For that reason support programs make sense but they would not cover software upgrades which may be required for some support issues to be resolved.

Seems that many users on /. think the subscription model is a way to gauge the customers. I tend to disagree. It's the means required to keep an entity alive so that the user base still has a place to get help from. An alternative is to open source the product but that also has it's issues. Unfortunately, most larger companies price their support programs with the intent of keeping the whole development team. That's what makes the model fail in many cases.

Re:Not acceptable.

[Ravaldy]

With Windows 8 it became apparent that they think desktops are going away

I think everybody agrees that Windows 8 was a mistake. MS gets it and that's why Windows 10 is the fix they needed. It's the OS that carries to all platforms while providing the best possible experience on each of the platforms. Windows 10 is just a easy to use on a desktop as Windows 7 with the added bonus of customizing your start menu. Want metro, then simply enable it. This caters to all users, not just touch base users.

I don't want an "OS as a service" that is designed for phones, and with ads and an app store

MS isn't going to force ads on you, the software makers are. Choose apps that don't have ads no different than on your phone. MS understand that corporate people pay for what they need. Home users tend to want things for free so they have to cater to them too otherwise they get pushed out of the market.

Linux Mint is sounding better all the time, since I can run Windows programs in a virtual box. If that is where MS wants to drive its longtime customers, so be it

Your a long time disgruntled customer so just do it. There's nothing wrong with that. I know plenty of people that enjoy the freedom from MS products. In my industry we can't avoid MS and we have no reason to either. The average cost of software per work station is less than $250 per year and that includes OS, office, Cad software, industry specific software and many more. That cost is a fraction of the cost of the hardware and a fraction of the cost of the labour so from a business standpoint, a drop in the bucket.

Re: Not acceptable.

[Anonymous Coward]

Paying for a license to run in a virtual box will surely show them!

Unless you meant wine, which isn't what you said.

Re:Not acceptable.

[mcgrew]

I have better things to do with my time than google how to fix Microsoft's fuckups.

Re:Not acceptable.

[The Real Dr John]

From my perspective as a long time computer builder/seller, and Windows user since version 1, I think that the Windows as a service is not going to please a lot of people unless MS is much more upfront about how they are going to make money from the OS (e.g., the extent of tracking, adware on the startmenu, telemetry uses beyond fixing issues, etc.). They also need to add an opt-out option to the Windows 10 icon because now you need to know enough about Windows to delete a specific update (KB3035583) to get rid of it and "opt-out". This is extremely user unfriendly by any standards.

On top of that, the forced updates are causing problems, and that needs to be ended. Just today an update broke Microsoft's own email program Outlook with an update KB3114409. It happened to me today when I trusted MS and ran the updates manually. This "patch" forced Outlook into safe mode until the specific update was uninstalled. So this update would have been forced on people with Windows 10 until MS pulled it. See here.

http://www.infoworld.com/artic...

Windows is another experiment (Windows as a service with forced updates) and users are acting as guinea pigs. I can't afford to do that with my work computers.

So go right ahead and use it if you want, but I will not. Many things would have to change, from the Metrofied start menu to the terrible 2D look that is so uncustomizable compared with Windows 7 to the forced updates. Apps are crap and I don't want or need them on my PC. PC Settings is a downgrade from Control Panel. I could go on and on, and if you again respond by trying to defend MS I'll just post my much longer, more detailed list of complaints for everyone to see.

Re:Not acceptable.

[The Real Dr John]

PS, I will join a class action lawsuit if one is initiated. I didn't agree to any W10 EULA, and almost had it installed on one of my computers. I spent a couple hours trying to fix the problems with Windows Update that the forced upgrade caused until I found GWX Control Panel.

http://microsoftclassactionlaw...

Re:Not acceptable.

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody gives a flying crap what your random word captcha is. If I want a random word I'll open a dictionary to a random page and point my finger to a random word. And it would be just as fucking interesting as you posting your random word captcha. I'm sorry you're so oblivious.

Re:Not acceptable.

[Ravaldy]

Good luck with that class lawsuit. I've seen much worst lawsuits result in minimal payout in the form of a credit towards products of the defending company. D-Link has one for their mass defective firmware and resulted in a $10 discount coupon on the next purchase of a D-Link product.

All the "possible damage" cases listed are a real joke and may as well be classified with "Coffee is hot?".

Re:Not acceptable.

[Ravaldy]

You keep going about Windows as service but last I check (not long ago), MS had not said anything about a subscription service and they even confirmed that those who got the upgrade before the deadline were entitled to Windows 10 at no charge for life.

Windows is another experiment (Windows as a service with forced updates) and users are acting as guinea pigs.

In case you didn't notice, customers are ALWAYS guinea pigs. There is no one product you can name that has not at some point made their customers a guinea pig. You could argue some products come to market with tremendous amounts of QC before they hit the market (such as planes) but any day to day shit is prone to make you a guinea pig.

PC Settings is a downgrade from Control Panel.

There is still a control panel. It's just not in your face because unless you a tech doing tech stuff you don't need it. The same way root access on Android is hidden from view.

I could go on and on, and if you again respond by trying to defend MS I'll just post my much longer, more detailed list of complaints for everyone to see.

You're allowed to your opinion. Keep in mind that I've seen this exact response to every single version of Windows since /. is in existence. Guess what? Windows share of the desktop world is still 85% and that seems to change very little year to year. It's only competitor at the moment is Apple and they aren't interested in serving the corporate world.

Re:Not acceptable.

[The Real Dr John]

Funny you say that after what happened with Windows 8.

Re:Not acceptable.

[jwhitener]

It's spread to website developers, where you have clowns suggest having a single site for both computers and mobile devices, rather than have different sites based on the device (like m.foo.com)

You are WAY behind the times (or do not work in web tech) if you think responsive websites can't handle mobile and desktop equally well (usually using a framework like Foundation or Bootstrap). It is true that there are a ton of crappy websites on the internet, but that has nothing to do with the capabilities of the technology.

Screw the user

[BigU 03C0mpin]

Seems to be the modern business slogan.

Re:Screw the user

[Anonymous Coward]

Grishnakh asked: "If the user happily bends over and asks to be screwed, over and over, why shouldn't a business do so?"

Because it is wrong?
Because it is unethical?
Because it is a poor business decision?
etc.
etc.
Would any of those be good reason not to screw the customer?

Re:Screw the user

[Anonymous Coward]

No one is forcing anyone to use Windows. If you don't like these policies, stop using it.

No problem. I'll just inform my employer and customers that we're no longer supporting windows, office, sql server, and they'll have to wait 10 years (without support) while we rewrite the whole application for Linux. That'll go over well.

Re:Screw the user

[Anonymous Coward]

Because it is wrong?

According to you. If you don't like it, don't buy from that business. If you do buy from that business, you're just an enabler.

Because it is unethical?

According to you. And so what? Why does this matter?

Because it is a poor business decision?

Wrong. It's a good business decision. Do you see Microsoft's profits disappearing? I don't. People keep buying from them. So their strategy seems to be working, therefore it's a good thing for them to do.

If your auto dealer installed a camera in your car to snoop on you, an when you complain they say "we updated the EULA", are you going to just accept it?

It is not acceptable to do that in other industries. Why give Microsoft a pass?

Re:Screw the user

[Anonymous Coward]

Prepare your anus, here comes systemd.

Re:Screw the user

[Opportunist]

Compared to Windows 10, that's one smooth, silky, well lubed little french tickler. Who knows, you might even enjoy it!

Re:Screw the user

[lgw]

If your auto dealer installed a camera in your car to snoop on you, an when you complain they say "we updated the EULA", are you going to just accept it?

It is not acceptable to do that in other industries. Why give Microsoft a pass?

GM customers seemed happy to keep doing business with GM after they did just that (well, audio, not video) for OnStar - there were several incidents, from police snooping to bored operators.

I'm OK with laws to enforce privacy, but it's a democracy and if most people don't care, well, we get the government we deserve. In the meantime, consumers also have a duty to stop doing business with assholes. Legal or not, when a company makes an asshole move like this, and you decide to keep doing business with them, well, decisions have consequences.

Re:Screw the user

[PRMan]

Because it is wrong?

According to you. If you don't like it, don't buy from that business. If you do buy from that business, you're just an enabler.

Because it is unethical?

According to you. And so what? Why does this matter?

Because it is a poor business decision?

Wrong. It's a good business decision. Do you see Microsoft's profits disappearing? I don't. People keep buying from them. So their strategy seems to be working, therefore it's a good thing for them to do.

According to everyone. It's wrong and unethical if you override someone else's will to do yours on something you don't own. The customer bought the computer and the OS. Overriding their will with their computer isn't an opinion, it's just flat-out wrong.

Re:Screw the user

[Quantus347]

If your auto dealer installed a camera in your car to snoop on you, an when you complain they say "we updated the EULA", are you going to just accept it?

It is not acceptable to do that in other industries. Why give Microsoft a pass?

GM customers seemed happy to keep doing business with GM after they did just that (well, audio, not video) for OnStar - there were several incidents, from police snooping to bored operators.

I'm OK with laws to enforce privacy, but it's a democracy and if most people don't care, well, we get the government we deserve. In the meantime, consumers also have a duty to stop doing business with assholes. Legal or not, when a company makes an asshole move like this, and you decide to keep doing business with them, well, decisions have consequences.

Well, that would be an option for almost any other industry. But this is the dominant Operating System on the entire planet. To walk away from Windows means either embracing Apple's Walled Garden approach, or delving into the tangled world of Linux. In either case there is a strong possibility that you'll be unable to use most of the Non-Microsoft software you own.

In other words, they are holding your Software hostage by virtue of the culture of prevalent cross-platform incompatibility.

Re:Screw the user

[Anonymous Coward]

We get the government they deserve.

People like me are vastly outnumbered by thoughtless ninnies that accept this sort of treatment from the government (and from businesses) and come back for more.

I can isolate myself a bit, but the monopolism at work ensures that I will have to contend with this injustice to some degree. And no amount of knowledge-raising on my part will ever change that.

Re:Screw the user

[Grishnakh]

The customer bought the computer and the OS.

Wrong. They licensed the OS. The customer does NOT own the OS. This has been made clear by licensing agreements and literally decades of precedent. If you don't trust the vendor you're licensing from, then why are you purchasing licensing from them?

Re: Screw the user

[BeaverCleaver]

I installed Linux Mint a few weeks ago on a cheap lenovo laptop. It Just Worked. Dual-boots with windows 8. Plays audio/media seamlessly by default. Doesn't freak out when you plug in a thumb drive (unlike windows!)

My next PC will be linux-only, with windows in a VM for a playing with badly-written Word docs.

Re: Screw the user

[Anonymous Coward]

No, I won't enjoy that either, it's like 2 girls 1 cup combined with lemonparty. Win10 is like being raped by a gorilla on speed.

Re:Screw the user

[mrchaotica]

Wrong. They licensed the OS. The customer does NOT own the OS.

I don't give a shit about what you or even some sell-out judge says. This is WRONG (morally and factually) and anyone who believes it should go fuck himself!

Re:Screw the user

[Grishnakh]

I don't give a shit about what you or even some sell-out judge says. This is WRONG (morally and factually)

Citation needed on the factually claim. There is literally decades of precedent supporting software licensing. You can believe whatever you want, but you just look like a lunatic when you claim things that are completely contrary to all the rest of society and the entire legal system we've been using for many decades (in regard to software).

Honestly, this all sounds like a bunch of whiners complaining that the government needs to step in and make software vendors behave as they think they should. Have you forgotten that this government is all in favor of massive surveillance and spying on citizens? Or are you going to complain about that too, while continuing to elect politicians who support these programs?

Re:Screw the user

[stooo]

>> have to wait 10 years (without support) while we rewrite the whole application for Linux. That'll go over well.

It should have been done properly from the start. (or portably, to be precise)

Re:Screw the user

[nukenerd]

No one is forcing anyone to use Windows. If you don't like these policies, stop using it.

1) In the UK at least, it is not possible to buy a PC in the high street without Windows pre-installed and hence send money to Microsoft. You can get PC's with blank HDDs, but only from a few specialist bespoke suppliers to generally professional customers. As far as most users are concerned they are forced to use Windows. Any alternative to Windows on a PC will need installing by the user, and the vast majority of users are incapable of that. Slashdot readers excepted.

2) I recall that this discussion is not about using Windows as opposed to an alternative like Linux, it is about the nature of the "upgrade" by default from Win7/8 to Win10. Essentially it is about those people who are happy using Windows 7. They don't want to stop using it; and having bought and paid for it they consider it is their right to keep using it as it is - and most sane people would agree with them whatever the EULA might say.

Re:Screw the user

[nukenerd]

The customer does NOT own the OS. This has been made clear by licensing agreements

They own the right to use it. To use the thing that they licensed, not something else.

Suppose I give you a licence to shoot rabbits on my land, with no time limit. I cannot one day say that I am changing the licence from shooting rabbits on my land to shooting rats in my cellar, because the rabbit stuff was "only a licence".

What you are claiming sounds like US law, which I understand is in the hands of corporates like Microsoft. None of this twaddle would stand up in a UK court of law.

Re:Screw the user

[Anonymous Coward]

The customer did NOT buy the OS. The customer bought a license to use the OS. There is a very large distinction here.

Re:Screw the user

[Grishnakh]

To walk away from Windows means either embracing Apple's Walled Garden approach, or delving into the tangled world of Linux.

No one ever said freedom was free or easy. If you want the convenience the Microsoft offers, then you need to put up with their abuse. If you don't like that, then be prepared for things to not be quite as convenient. Personally, Linux Mint works just great for my wife's computer; she doesn't have any trouble at all with it, except that it won't run Windows software. Since all she does is surf the web, use Facebook (ugh...), and watch videos with it, it serves her needs just fine. And so much stuff these days is web-based anyway, so your OS doesn't matter any more.

If I demanded to run some Apple-only software like Garageband, I sure wouldn't be bitching and complaining about the high cost of Apple Macbooks or how much I hate OSX's UI; that's part of the deal. So I simply avoid Apple-only software.

Re:Screw the user

[Anonymous Coward]

Most of their profits are still coming from Enterprise licensing of Windows SEVEN! When they fuck this up, you will start seeing the consequences.

Re:Screw the user

[Grishnakh]

Suppose I give you a licence to shoot rabbits on my land, with no time limit. I cannot one day say that I am changing the licence from shooting rabbits on my land to shooting rats in my cellar, because the rabbit stuff was "only a licence".

The rabbit-shooting license doesn't mean that you can't ever make any changes to your land, or that you can't sell the land to someone else, or subdivide it, or that rabbits will continue to inhabit that land.

Your Windows license says you can use Windows as long as you like. It doesn't say that they have to continue supporting Windows 7/8, or that they can't push updates on you. They've simply updated you to the latest-and-greatest Windows.

Re:Screw the user

[mrchaotica]

Citation needed on the factually claim. There is literally decades of precedent supporting software licensing.

And all of that precedent nevertheless manages to be either incorrectly-reasoned or inapplicable, in conflict with a plain reading of the Uniform Commercial Code and/or Copyright Law. Also, Wikipedia states "The legal status of shrink wrap contracts in the US is somewhat unclear."

Here's the gist:

1. The UCC establishes that when an item is sold, the buyer owns it free and clear. (Subject to law, of course, but not subject to the whim of the seller.)
2. Whether the product (henceforth referred to as my property) contains copyrighted software is irrelevant; I already acquired the right to use said copy of the software by virtue of buying it.
3. In particular, I do not need any additional permissions from the copyright holder to make copies incidental to running the software (e.g. copying it into RAM); 17 USC 117 makes an explicit exception for that.
4. In other words, after I hand my money over to the retailer, the transaction is over and I have no further obligation or relationship to the retailer (and I never had any relationship or obligation to the copyright holder, unless the retailer and copyright holder were the same entity).
5. Because I have my property and all the rights under law necessary to use it as I see fit, I have no obligation to concede anything else to the copyright holder. License agreements, like any contract, must constitute an offer (aka "consideration") to be valid. Because the alleged-license only claims to offer me the rights I already have, it really offers nothing at all and thus is not a valid contract.
6. Because of the preceding facts, any text the software presents to me or any button I have to click to use it is incidental, irrelevant, and does not constitute any sort of legal agreement whatsoever. The act of clicking a button labeled "I accept" at the bottom of a window labeled "license agreement" has no more legal significance than opening a book or putting the needle in the groove of a phonograph.

To my knowledge, this is a line of reasoning which has never actually been tested in court. If you can cite a case where it was -- especially one decided at the appellate or higher level -- feel free to cite it.

Now, if you want to argue that licenses for software which are agreed to before or concurrently as money is transacted (i.e., where it is acquired in a way that is genuinely different from a "sale") are valid, that's fine -- but that's a different situation. Also, if you want to argue that an EULA "offers" a warranty or tech support or something, I'll concede that too -- but will point out that the property owner is perfectly free to reject said warranty or whatever and still use his property.

Re:Screw the user

[Grishnakh]

To my knowledge, this is a line of reasoning which has never actually been tested in court.

Then I encourage you to hire a legal team and start suing software companies based on your legal theories, since you seem to feel you have the right to dictate to Microsoft how they should run their business and treat their customers. Good luck with that.

Meanwhile, I'll simply opt out of using MS's products.

The bottom line is that legality is determined by whoever wins in court, and that costs a lot of money. The smart way to deal with this situation is to opt out.

Also, if you want to argue that an EULA "offers" a warranty or tech support or something, I'll concede that too -- but will point out that the property owner is perfectly free to reject said warranty or whatever and still use his property.

You're free to reject MS's updates and spying. But they're under no obligation to make it easy for you; you'll need to block them at the firewall to be really sure. Again, the smart way is to simply opt out. Just like I'm not going to buy a car from a company that's known to make cars which turn into fireballs when rear-ended, I'm not going to use products from a software company that disrespects me and abuses me.

Re:Screw the user

[mrchaotica]

Then I encourage you to hire a legal team and start suing software companies based on your legal theories, since you seem to feel you have the right to dictate to Microsoft how they should run their business and treat their customers. Good luck with that.

I'm under the impression that -- given that I have no legal agreement with Microsoft -- I have no standing to sue them. Instead, I have to wait for them to sue me for my alleged violation of the alleged EULA, and that hasn't happened yet.

You're free to reject MS's updates and spying. But they're under no obligation to make it easy for you; you'll need to block them at the firewall to be really sure. Again, the smart way is to simply opt out.

I do block Microsoft at the firewall -- my router's firewall, not Windows', for obvious reasons -- and as a practical matter, I agree that boycotting is a reasonable individual course of action. (I'm also planning on switching back to Linux, but haven't gotten around to it yet.)

However, I still (a) want to see my argument tested in court and (b) object to people (e.g. you) talking about software being "licensed, not sold" as if it's some sort of legal fait accompli, when it simply isn't.

Re:Screw the user

[nukenerd]

The rabbit-shooting license doesn't mean that you can't ever make any changes to your land ......

Changes to the land (such as building) might unavoidably create an adverse side effect on the rabbit shoots, but would legally require compensation to the licencee. OTOH, changes to someone's Win7 installation are entirely avoidable, even if Windows moves "ahead" to later versions, simply by MS leaving those Win7 installations alone.

.... or that you can't sell the land to someone else, or subdivide it

If you sold the land, the obligation to honour the licence would go to the new owner; in English law anyway - it's called a covenant.

Your Windows license ....... doesn't say that they have to continue supporting Windows 7/8

I was not expecting continued support - just MS to leave it alone.

.. ....... or that they can't push updates on you.

My rabbit shooting licence does not say the land owner can't tar and feather me.

Re:Screw the user

[Grishnakh]

Leaving it alone is irresponsible: the vendor has an obligation to provide security updates. Not doing so is leaving you open to malware infections and breakins. MS merely chooses to update your system wholesale to the latest Windows version to stay up-to-date.

Also, as I recall, it's entirely possible to disable all updates to Windows. It's just not set that way by default.

Re:Screw the user

[Grishnakh]

Haha, yeah right. Corporations are so stupid they're not going to abandon Windows no matter what MS does to them.

Re:Screw the user

[Anonymous Coward]

Because it is wrong?

According to you. If you don't like it, don't buy from that business. If you do buy from that business, you're just an enabler.

Because it is unethical?

According to you. And so what? Why does this matter?

Because it is a poor business decision?

Wrong. It's a good business decision. Do you see Microsoft's profits disappearing? I don't. People keep buying from them. So their strategy seems to be working, therefore it's a good thing for them to do.
----

Microsoft has made a BIG misstep here it is not ok and you know it. no one could look at FORCING an OS onto a system just so M$ can get all the info it can from me to be sold for ad $$$$. this is unacceptable totally. did you know that they are charging for FUCKING MINESWEEPER ? they want you to buy apps. they control the apps and the info coming from them. M$ has turned from a software company to a ad information collection company. stop pretending that them trampling all over your rights is ok. of course you work for M$ so w/e.. tl:dr FUCK OFF m$ Shill!

Re:Screw the user

[dave420]

So your sense of entitlement trumps the law? Amazing. You might just want to calm down a bit.

Re:Screw the user

[mrchaotica]

If you think property rights (actual property rights, not Imaginary Property rights) are "entitlement," then you can go fuck yourself too! Using these kinds of legal shenanigans to make owners of property beholden to third-parties is nothing less than an attempt to destroy the foundation of our society and turn us all back into serfs (bound to corporations instead of the land, but serfs nonetheless), and I will not stand for it!

Re:Screw the user

[hucker75]

Microsoft are giving you an entire OS for free, and people still find something to moan about. Just install it for goodness sake.

Re:Screw the user

[Anonymous Coward]

Even if it is legal, I think it is unethical. Other than reverse-engineering code, creating pirated copies of your software, etc, I think users have a right to do what they want with their machine and OS and the maker of the OS shouldn't have the right to add as part of the EULA that you agree to have personal information collected about you as part of the agreement to use this software. Some users have complained that they have set their preferred browser to something like Firefox only to have their default browser changed back to Edge or be nagged by the OS to change their default browser to MS Edge. There's rumors that sometime next year Microsoft will automatically start updating users to Windows 10 who are currently running Windows 7 or Windows 8/8.1 even if they refuse to upgrade because of these new EULA terms.

Re:Screw the user

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong. They licensed the OS. The customer does NOT own the OS. This has been made clear by licensing agreements and literally decades of precedent.

Slavery was uphold by literally decades of precedent by the US legal profession.

The race-based discrimination laws (the "Jim Crow" laws) were upheld by literally decades of precedent by the US legal profession.

Both sets of laws violated a number of fundamental rights, such as the right to ethical practice of law.

Many other abusive laws, violating that same right, have been upheld by literally decades of precedent. Some unethical and illegal laws even go back to the founding of the country, and have been upheld by two centuries of precedent. For example, legal ethics problems in property law going back to English common law are still in existence, but in some cases have actually been corrected in England. Witness the successful decades long civil rights battle against the British legal profession for the right to roam, reversing MANY centuries of precedent: with respect to this issue and some others, the US is far less free than Britain!

Software licensing agreements have never been challenged in any competent, ethical court on a legal ethics basis. Given that current contract law violates the 9th Amendment right to ethical practice of law on a number of levels, any such challenge in front of a competent, ethical court would necessarily result in significant change to current practice.

Of course, finding such a court might be difficult.

US copyright law, patent law, contract law, trademark law, tort law, tax law, the DMCA, and many other aspects of US law are a huge mess, with lots of legal and governmental ethics problems, ethics problems that have crept in over literally decades of precedent.

It seems like nobody gets to high judicial office that is willing to take a stand on legal ethics issues. No doubt that's the result of lobbying by the Bar Associations, plus conflict of interest on the part of the politicians.

This situation is nothing new, of course. Entropy increases in any closed system. It took external force - force applied from outside the legal profession - to end historical legal ethics issues such as slavery and the Jim Crow laws, and it seems likely the same kind of thing will need to happen here as well.

Until then, Microsoft's lawyers and executives - like those of so many other companies - will continue to do unethical (and hence illegal) things in violation of fundamental rights arising under the highest law of the land, and will get away with it.

Re:Screw the user

[Grishnakh]

You'll get no argument that decades of precedent don't make things right, or that IP law is a total mess.

But the laws are codified and enforced, so you complaining about them isn't going to change them any time soon. And there's a world of difference between slavery, civil rights, etc. and software licensing. With software licensing, it's really really simple: if you don't like the deal you're offered, don't buy into it. There are alternatives.

Or you can try suing Microsoft, and seeing how that goes. Good luck with that.

Until then, Microsoft's lawyers and executives - like those of so many other companies - will continue to do unethical (and hence illegal) things in violation of fundamental rights arising under the highest law of the land, and will get away with it.

They will as long as people continue to throw money at them despite all the abuse they get back. If people stopped doing that, these companies would go out of business. I don't know about you, but personally I haven't contributed anything to MS's coffers.

Legal?

[Anonymous Coward]

I know the EULA has all kinds of great language that basically grants ownership of your DNA to Microsoft, but how much of that is enforceable and will hold up in court?

Re:Legal?

[Anonymous Coward]

... how much of that is enforceable and will hold up in court?

The more appropriate question would be: how much money is available to pay for the required legal professionals' services to uphold it (or successfully contest it). Which is normally more than the average middle-class citizen can muster, especially compared to Microsoft's available funds.

The unfortunate reality is that the EULA by default stands until questioned, a court will not do that by its own volition and for free. Someone has to pay for that.

Re:Legal?

[Runaway1956]

By the time a case makes it to court, the damage is done. Your computer is "upgraded", Windows telemetry knows everything that is on your machine, and all your secrets are public. Not to mention, that half of your software no longer works, because of compatibility issues.

It gets harder and harder for me to understand why so many people stay on Microsoft operating systems.

Re:Legal?

[geekmux]

By the time a case makes it to court, the damage is done. Your computer is "upgraded", Windows telemetry knows everything that is on your machine, and all your secrets are public. Not to mention, that half of your software no longer works, because of compatibility issues.

Good! At that point, you've had years to document and rack up damages to your person or business because of an upgrade you didn't want that caused all sorts of problems for software you paid for that is no longer working, all being driven down during a time when Microsoft still fully supports Windows 7.

It gets harder and harder for me to understand why so many people stay on Microsoft operating systems.

If you think that user base is stubborn, let me tell you about a little company called Oracle...

Re:Legal?

[Anonymous Coward]

half of your software no longer works, because of compatibility issues.

It gets harder and harder for me to understand why so many people stay on Microsoft operating systems.

Because half your software not working is better than 99% of your software AND some important hardware not working?
I got fed up with the malware and advertising bullshit MS was pushing this summer and installed Linux on one of my machines, with the intention of going full Linux in the near future. Two months later and I was back to Windows. Wifi problems, video problems, a more limited application selection....I figured I was just trading one headache for another, and went with the one I knew. Apple? That's just trading one walled garden for another, similarly limiting hardware and software choices.
The OS market is worse off now than it was 15 years ago. For the 99% of the people out there who just want shit to work, we're being attacked on all sides by OS vendors who just want things to work their way.

Re:Legal?

[Joe_Dragon]

Well when the judge get's free Xboxes for his kids he may look MS way

Re:Legal?

[cfalcon]

> It gets harder and harder for me to understand why so many people stay on Microsoft operating systems.

Other OSes are no better.

Look at Microsoft's Windows competitors:

1- The PS4 OS only allows you to install certain pre approved apps from a store. Now, it doesn't log keystrokes like Windows 10, but that's probably just because so few users play keyboard games. You also can't even play most of the games online unless you have the latest version of everything. On top of that, there's no good way to get a compiler!

2- The Wii U controls very sharply which games you can play, and also has a built in app store. It's just as locked down as the PS4 or the Windows!

Well, that's it for Windows competitors. But really, what's the big deal? All the OSes like Windows are pretty similar these days.

Re:Legal?

[Zero__Kelvin]

You know that T-Shirt that says: Cool Story Bro! ? Assume I'm wearing a shirt like that right now, but that it says Anecdote rather then Story; that will help you get the most from the following:

"It gets harder and harder for me to understand why so many people stay on Microsoft operating systems.

Because half your software not working is better than 99% of your software AND some important hardware not working?
I got fed up with the malware and advertising bullshit MS was pushing this summer and installed Linux on one of my machines, with the intention of going full Linux in the near future.Two months later and I was back to Windows. Wifi problems, video problems, a more limited application selection..."

Seriously, it is kind of a cool anecdote, because it shows how a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. You basically didn't stop to think: Hey, is this fair? Is this a fair comparison?. Of course, it isn't. Not at all. Allow me to elaborate.

A professional installed and configured a customized version of Windows on your system (Maybe you didn't know that an engineering team configured a custom version of Windows with all the right drivers, etc?.) Then an amateur tried to installed and configure Linux, and not surprisingly was unsuccessful (thus the WiFi and video "problems", and inability to run your Windows applications with WINE/Codeweaver Crossover.) It boggles the mind that you think that could pass as a fair comparison. True, there are some Windows applications that won't work with Crossover, but it is highly unlikely you use those, or you never would have made the switch (e.g. You' would already know Photoshop and AutoCAD aren't available for Linux.)

My assumption is that you are a troll (who else would claim that 99% of your software won't work if you use Linux?), but maybe I'm wrong, and even if I'm not at least other people can learn a little something (like the existence of Crossover) as a consequence of your post now, whereas there was absolutely nothing to learn from yours directly, and a significant danger someone would get a tingle in their confirmation bias gland.

Re: Legal?

[cyber-vandal]

Inbthe corporate world it's because they have millions of dollars tied up in Microsoft software. In the consumer world it's because the alternatives are more expensive (Apple) or don't support all your software and hardware (any of the free Unixes). You think there wouldn't have been a mass exodus away from Windows if the alternatives did what users wanted.

Re:Legal?

[Zero__Kelvin]

Yes, because Judge's don't really make that much, so $350 to $1000 dollars worth of commodity hardware is more than enough to sway them in the direction of risking their reputation, career, and jail time.

Re:Legal?

[tepples]

True, there are some Windows applications that won't work with Crossover, but it is highly unlikely you use those, or you never would have made the switch

In other words, "Get a Mac already." Because a lot of the popular stuff known not to work in Wine is also available native for OS X, such as Photoshop and iTunes Store.

Re: Legal?

[The-Ixian]

Inbthe corporate world it's because they have millions of dollars tied up in Microsoft software

More likely it is because of stuff like:

- Software (you got that one)
- Group policy
- Built-in deployment tools
- Built-in administration tools
- Wizard configurations that make it almost brain-dead easy to set up complex systems (Exchange, IIS, SQL, etc)

In the consumer world it's because the alternatives are more expensive (Apple) or don't support all your software and hardware (any of the free Unixes).

You pretty much nailed it here, except I would also include PC gaming as a big driver for consumer use of Windows (Xbox is Windows after all).

In addition, Windows is pretty easy to use and stuff Just Works for the most part.

Basically, on the consumer side, if stuff works well enough to do what you want then who really cares about a little telemetry going back to the mother ship? Especially if it is only used to make your experience better and improve the product.

Re:Legal?

[Zero__Kelvin]

No, in other words use Linux, save $1000 bucks, and avoid vendor lock-in. If you are one of the very few people who need* Photoshop or another application available for OS X but not Linux, then sure, get a Mac. For the other 99% of the population Linux is awesome, if installed and configured by a competent Linux professional.

* Most people who "need" photoshop don't really need it. They just don't want to deal with the learning curve for a new tool, such as The GIMP. The only people who need it are those doing press work that requires CMYK, etc.

Re:Legal?

[Whatanut]

There seems to be a great deal of assumption in your post. Mostly that the person installing linux is incompetent and the windows machine was installed by some highly trained tech. Both assumptions that may or may not be correct.

I've been around this stuff since the days of slackware 1.0. I've enjoyed the days of Windows 3.0 when it was usually faster to just do something at a command line than it was to start up that turd. I've been through KDE, GNOME, Enlightenment and various other window managers. I'm currently a Mac person simply because when I finally got into it a few years ago my reaction was "This is what I've been trying to get linux to be for years!!!".

Do I curse at windows? Yes
Do I curse at linux? Yes
Do I curse at my Mac? Yes

Each of them has their pain points. But trying to argue that linux is perfectly suitable replacement for windows is asinine. And quite frankly ignorant. There are still many rough edges to the linux world that the majority of users simply don't have the time or expertise to put up with.

Re:Legal?

[Anonymous Coward]

Fallout 4

Re:Legal?

[DoofusOfDeath]

It gets harder and harder for me to understand why so many people stay on Microsoft operating systems.

I'm stuck supporting Windows and/or Mac because my wife's photography business cannot function well without Adobe Creative Suite.

And please, don't bother saying Gimp or Darktable. I won't bother explaining this choice; the factors are extensively discussed elsewhere.

Re:Legal?

[omnichad]

thus the WiFi and video "problems"

The reason for wifi problems in Linux was due to there being no open source drivers for so many wireless chips. The only way to make them work is to run the Windows drivers via NDISWrapper. A skilled professional is going to have a long road ahead of them to fix that in Linux.

Re:Legal?

[Zero__Kelvin]

"There seems to be a great deal of assumption in your post. Mostly that the person installing linux is incompetent and the windows machine was installed by some highly trained tech. "

I have made Zero assumptions. You don't seem to understand that when you buy a PC from the store, the image on the hard drive is a custom image. Engineers for ASUS, Lenovo, HP, et. al. create them in house. This isn't an assumption. It is a fact. Now, on to the other proveable fact that you mistook as an assumption. It is a fact that this person was not qualified to install and configure Linux on a professional level. This is evidenced by his WiFi and Video issues. I have been installing various Linux distributions for more than a decade, on hundreds of machines. I can assure you that there are solutions to the problems but they sometimes require some knowledge and skill with Linux. Also, the OP openly stated that "he finally .... tried Linux". I don't care if he designed his own 2048 Core C/GPU and wrote an OS for it to run his custom neural network. That still means he is not competent with Linux, as his own testimony confirms.

I didn't read the rest of your post. When someone gets things that far wrong out of the gate, I abandon all hope that things are going to get better from there.

Re: Legal?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's when Microsoft decides to sponsor the favorite football team that the judge has that he swings.

And with Win10 they don't even have to ask the judge anymore, they already know.

Re:Legal?

[MachineShedFred]

Unfortunately, I still have two uses for Windows:
1. Games. Yes, many of these can be played on Linux now, but the drivers are still shit, and take a performance hit universally over what you get on Windows.
2. Windows Media Center. It's one of the few things Microsoft actually did well, so they had to kill it. Unfortunately, it's the only DVR software I can use with Time Warner, because Time Warner are asshats and abuse the shit out of the 'CopyOnce' CCI flag, so everything that legally can be encrypted, is.

If there was a solution for #2 that didn't include some snarky "just stop watching TV" horseshit, I'd live with the performance gap of #1 just to be done with Microsoft.

Re:Legal?

[Tharkkun]

By the time a case makes it to court, the damage is done. Your computer is "upgraded", Windows telemetry knows everything that is on your machine, and all your secrets are public. Not to mention, that half of your software no longer works, because of compatibility issues.

It gets harder and harder for me to understand why so many people stay on Microsoft operating systems.

No. This change is resuming the push of the OS to your system. Approximately 3 GB. It *does not* automatically execute the update.

Re:Legal?

[Whatanut]

Incorrect. You absolutley have made assumptions. Starting with the idea that the computer with windows was factory installed.

Again, quite possibly a correct assumption.

You're complete disregard of the rest of my post is pointless. The fact is, linux can be be a bitch and is not suited for everyone. Period.

Re:Legal?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi. Same AC here.
Yes, Windows came pre-installed on the machine. If you had read the rest of my post, however, you'd see that I went BACK to Windows, which I installed (myself) in about an hour, and everything was working perfectly from the MS ISO. No custom image needed. No, I'm no Linux professional. That's kind of the point. Until it can be installed by Joe Blow off the street without having the work through 10+ shitty online guides, most of which don't work, it's not ready for prime time. As others pointed out, the WiFi driver in particular was the nail in the coffin. It's simply not supported, and jumping through a bunch of hoops to get a hacked-together solution wasn't worth my time.
Call me a troll if that makes you feel better. I've been trying to have a good Linux experience since the late 90's, but I just can't make it more than a few weeks/months at a time. I'm fully willing to admit that most of the problem is that any OS change is just different and change is hard. Why can't Linux evangelists admit that the switching cost is high? I'm partly on your side, here. I'd love to ditch MS, but the alternatives don't work for me. It's that exact attitude that everybody else is an idiot who just needs to spend 10 years learning the system that turns people off.

Re:Legal?

[Anonymous Coward]

You assume he didn't build the PC from parts and throw a bog-standard (though possibly OEM-licensed) generic Windows installation on it. In which case, there's zero difference in effort between getting that hardware to work with Windows and getting it to work with Linux that can be explained by anything other than "Linux isn't ready for primetime".

Application software, however, should be a given. If you jump feet-first into Linux and think all your shit's gonna run with no trouble through WINE, then you're a dumbass who has obviously never even talked to someone who has spent the necessary days or weeks of research and tweaking to get WINE to run any arbitrary Win32 app. Ignoring this effort just makes you look like a dipshit.

Personally, I use Windows for day-to-day stuff, but I will save the license costs if there's something that can be handled efficiently in Linux for a purpose-built machine. Lately, I'm finding that there's not much I'll bother with Linux for, though. Even with Microsoft's recent user-hostile attitude (or at least power user-hostile), I still find Windows to be a much more capable system for nearly everything that needs a user interface, which is most things.

Re:Legal?

[stooo]

>>The reason for wifi problems in Linux was due to there being no open source drivers for so many wireless chips.
Your statistics seem to be old, or broken.
On the approx 30 random laptops I installed linux in the last 3 years, all of them had working Wifi, out of the box.

Re:Legal?

[tepples]

For the other 99% of the population Linux is awesome, if installed and configured by a competent Linux professional.

How would one go about finding a local GNU/Linux professional? Are Linux user groups still a thing in the fourth quarter of 2015?

Most people who "need" photoshop don't really need it. They just don't want to deal with the learning curve for a new tool, such as The GIMP.

Or, just as likely, they don't want to deal with retraining their entire team from Photoshop to GIMP so that they can collaborate in XCF instead of PSD. Besides, GIMP reportedly won't get adjustment layers any time before 3.2. (In Photoshop, an adjustment layer is a layer that makes a copy of what's below it, applies a filter, and automatically updates itself whenever anything below the layer changes.)

Re:Legal?

[omnichad]

Wrong context. I'm talking about the reasons why ones that are broken are broken, completely disregarding all the working chips. Which is why I used past tense, because it's mostly a solved problem anyway.

Re:Legal?

[dpidcoe]

Your post is an excellent example of why linux never got the market share it really should have. Instead of attempting to fix the problem (or hell, even just expressing sympathy), you attack the person talking about the problem and go so far as to call them a troll. Video and wifi are notorious for not working out of the box on various linux distros (yes, we know it's the hardware vendors fault in a lot of cases), there's no harm in acknowledging it. By insulting the people who encounter these kinds of issues, you drive away a lot of potential users and reinforce the perception that these issues aren't going to be fixed anytime in the near future.

Re:Legal?

[Zero__Kelvin]

NDIS Wrapper hasn't been required for years, so it is already clear that you are doing it wrong. The fact that there are no Open Source drivers is a complete non-issue, as all the major cards have drivers provided by the manufacturer. If you knew what you were doing you would have copied the firmware for your card to /lib/firmware and told Linux to use it. Go ahead. Name the card you claim requires NDIS Wrapper, and I'll show you the instructions for configuring it properly.

Re:Legal?

[Zero__Kelvin]

What a nut.

Re:Legal?

[omnichad]

You're the one who said

thus the WiFi and video "problems"

What wifi problems is anyone having now that this is all over? You claimed it required an expert, but that was the only time that was ever true.

Re:Legal?

[Zero__Kelvin]

"That's kind of the point. Until it can be installed by Joe Blow off the street without having the work through 10+ shitty online guides, most of which don't work, it's not ready for prime time"

So you are saying Windows isn't ready for prime time then? Because I can assure you that Joe Blow won't be any more successful configuring a stock Windows install properly. Also, it seems it will surprise you to know, Joe Blow can't rebuild an engine or create hybrid strains of various vegetable items.

" As others pointed out, the WiFi driver in particular was the nail in the coffin. It's simply not supported, "

Please, pray tell us, what card is this. Please boot a live Linux DVD and show us the output of lspci (Google it if you don't know what lspci is)

" I'm partly on your side, here. I'd love to ditch MS, but the alternatives don't work for me."

It is a shame we didn't meet in person, as you sound sincere, and I would love to prove to you that the issues you are having are all solvable by an experienced Linux professional (starting with picking the best distribution to use), which brings up another question ... which distribution and version did you try (please tell me it wasn't / let me guess it was / Ubuntu)

Re:Legal?

[Zero__Kelvin]

"How would one go about finding a local GNU/Linux professional? Are Linux user groups still a thing in the fourth quarter of 2015?"

How would you find a doctor? I mean, there aren't any Doctor User's Groups in 2015 are there?

Actually, your chances are much higher than finding a qualified Windows professional. Everybody's brother-in-law, nephew and aunt is a Windows "expert" and the percentage of people who claim to be experts that are not is much higher with Windows. Don't get me wrong. They really think "try rebooting" and "re-install Windows if that doesn't work" are the correct two steps to solving any Windows issue. They are sincerely ignorant. They're the Geek Squad! .

I'm sure you aren't going to do it (and I don't blame you), if you posted the city in which you lived I bet I could ferret one out for you. I'd even call him and quiz him to make sure he knew his stuff before replying back with the contact info for the guy (or gal.)

"Or, just as likely, they don't want to deal with retraining their entire team from Photoshop to GIMP"

How could you possibly not realize I already said that? Pay attention to the word they in They don't want to ... That words indicates a single person, or an entire team. Of course, it isn't much more costly to train an OMG Entire TEAM!!!! than it is to train an individual. Indeed, there can be a win in that more people working together helps everyone discover tricks, etc. faster.

Re:Legal?

[Zero__Kelvin]

"You assume he didn't build the PC from parts and throw a bog-standard (though possibly OEM-licensed) generic Windows installation on it."

No. I was able to properly infer that. It has been confirmed by the OP. Of course, iot is pretty clear that you are a troll, too, with statements like this:

I still find Windows to be a much more capable system for nearly everything that needs a user interface, which is most things."

The UI is so configurable in Linux that people usually think I have a mac, then they see it is a Lenovo and they just stand their scratching their head going WTF??? If your Linux system doesn't look and function far, far better than a Windows machine you're doing it wrong. Fucking Metro and no Start Menu is better than KDE with Multiple Desktops and 3D effects properly configured? You are either a troll, or just woefully under-informed (I'd use the "i" word, but people don't know that it means essentially the same thing and tend to automatically click on "Flamebait" or "Troll" in true true Pavlovian fashion - never mind that "Flamebait" and "Troll" aren't synonyms)

Re:Legal?

[Zero__Kelvin]

I didn't attack anyone. You need to grow as pair of testicles.

" Instead of attempting to fix the problem"

How do I fix an anecdote? Whatever problems the guy created for himself, he has long since gone back to Windows per his anecdote, so what would I fix? Actually though, if you look more closely at this thread, you will see that I have offered to do exactly that for anyone who will provide the information necessary to do so, so I guess there goes your argument on that front.

"Video and wifi are notorious for not working out of the box on various linux distros (yes, we know it's the hardware vendors fault in a lot of cases), there's no harm in acknowledging it."

I don't know what distribution you are using, but every one I have used for the last several years has had support if you know what you are doing. A lot of distributions require to enable a "non-free" repository, but this is very basic Linux knowledge. I would say anyone who can't get a WiFi card working by properly configuring their system post-install isn't qualified to install and configure a Linux system any more than they were qualified to install and configure a Windows system the first time they got their hands on one.

Re:Legal?

[Zero__Kelvin]

Are you intentionally being an idiot? Would you care to post something that doesn't appear to be composed by a drunk person?

"What wifi problems is anyone having now that this is all over? You claimed it required an expert, but that was the only time that was ever true."

That doesn't actually make any sense. I didn't "claim" anything. I stated facts. You can easily verify them with a new software tool that I predict everyone will be using some day.

Re:Legal?

[tepples]

How would you find a doctor?

Finding a doctor is something that someone in your family is more likely to know how to do than finding someone to help your organization throw Windows out the window.

if you posted the city in which you lived I bet I could ferret one out for you.

I'm not interested in you doing the work for me in the Fort Wayne, Indiana, area in particular, as much as documenting the process of finding a Linux professional so that others reading this can repeat the process in their own cities.

Pay attention to the word they

I misread they (plural) as its homophone they (animate genderless singular). I apologize. My point was that if one person on a graphic design team needs Photoshop, everyone probably does for file format round tripping reasons.

Re:Legal?

[metrix007]

It gets harder and harder for me to understand why so many people stay on Microsoft operating systems.

That's cause you are an irrational zealot. You try to spread FUD about compatibility issues and Windows in general.

Take a Linux executable from 10 years ago from any distro any see how well it runs on a current release of Ubuntu. Now do the same with a Windows 95 executable. I bet only one of them will run correctly.

I'm going to be accused of being a shill or something, but it's amazing t me to see people on Slashdot spreading FUD, no matter the topic. For shame.

Re:Legal?

[metrix007]

Go back to claiming to be a software engineer, you damn troll. No one cares what you think.

Re: Legal?

[omnichad]

A professional installed and configured a customized version of Windows on your system...and an amateur tried to installed and configure Linux, and not surprisingly was unsuccessful

This is you claiming. It's unlikely the main reason for the lack of success was not being an expert (even if an expert may be able to overcome some problems).

Re:Legal?

[Zero__Kelvin]

So the process is you post your location to Slashdot, and maybe someone knows the answer. You have heard of the site Slashdot, right. Would you like my help finding one in Fort Wayne, Indiana? There is no getting around it. You can pick a "Linux Doctor" in your area the way most people do; i.e. either you find one in your area and assume he is probably competent, then try him out and if he isn't, then you look for another one, or you ask around for recommendations. Obviously, YMMV on the second one. Lots of newspapers have sections where you can ask for such recommendations. You simply need to be resourceful. Unless of course you are a Linux expert, in which case you can call them and test their skill level, which is what I am offering to do. Yes tepples. For you. I am willing to do that for you. Why? Because I'm a magnanimous individual bursting with altruism and pro-Linux fervor! ;-)

Re:Legal?

[Anonymous Coward]

The only people who need it are those doing press work that requires CMYK, etc.

Or people who want to be able to rotate text without rasterizing it.

Re:Legal?

[Zero__Kelvin]

ROTFLMAO. This from a guy who thinks late-binding is what he gets when his Dominatrix is behind schedule.

Re: Legal?

[Zero__Kelvin]

That is completely contradictory. This is your argument phrased in a way that hopefully makes it more clear to you why you are an idiot. "An Expert could have solved the problems, and he couldn't solve the problems, but the main reason he couldn't was not an inability! How dare you say being an expert has anything to do with it? Just because an expert could get it to work easily and he couldn't do it at all! The nerve of some people forming such an absurd conclusion!" Yeah. Way to go.

Re: Legal?

[omnichad]

However you phrased whatever that was makes no sense. In fact, if I were to rate it on a scale, it would get an absolute zero.

Re: Legal?

[omnichad]

P.S. ability != expert

Re: Legal?

[Zero__Kelvin]

"P.S. ability != expert"

This is why you are so confused. You simply lack basic logical facilities. I mean, if you did you would know that ability is certainly a subset of expert. I mean, wouldn't you agree that not everyone with ability is an expert, but every expert has ability? Maybe you are not a software developer? That would explain why you didn't know that there are other relationships besides ==.

Re:Legal?

[Anonymous Coward]

I can tell you the Realtek RTL8188E wifi chipset is rubbish on Linux. Random disconnects, power drops, weird slowdowns, and nothing anyone can do helps.

Re:Legal?

[dpidcoe]

I didn't attack anyone. You need to grow as pair of testicles.

Not only is that sentence by itself self-contradictory, but it's completely untrue. You implied he's dumb because certain hardware didn't work on linux (in reality this is the fault of the manufacturer and/or the linux community), and called him a troll for daring to say something truthful but negative about your OS.

Re:Legal?

[solidraven]

Actually a lot of software is windows only if you want it to truly work. I'm a heavy user of CAD software (electronics mixed with mechanics), I need cisco VPN and Citrix to work together smoothly, and our toolchains consist out of programs written (badly) by vendors who often have no competition at all. So support is non-existent to sum it up shortly. Then you have artwork conversion for manufacturing which is a nightmare in its own right. ( Not to mention some equipment still runs NT 4 which can be very picky about file systems.) Migrating to Windows 10 would be a nightmare, but Linux would be impossible. And even if I could get it to work in WINE the graphics support in Linux is so sketchy that the performance would make it useless. I can already get a Windows server on its knees with AutoCAD and Altium, what do you think would happen if I were to run it through WINE? And I hardly think I'm a lonely case. Additionally the hardware compatibility beyond Windows 7 and in Linux is a disaster, Imagine accessing a GBIP bus or PLC card on Windows 10 or in Linux. The humorous statement "the computer says no" comes to mind.

Re:Legal?

[solidraven]

Not to mention a toddler could design a better UI than the GIMP team... For being graphics editing software it sure could use a touch of a graphics designer in that department. Then again it is a GNU related project I suppose, which goes a long way explaining why its a piece of condensed misery that doesn't support things the competitors have for 10+ years.

Re:Legal?

[Anonymous Coward]

>>>It gets harder and harder for me to understand why so many people stay on Microsoft operating systems.

There are two reasons. Games, and user experience.

If linux gaming were at a comparable level to windows gaming, everyone would be talking about the 'beleaguered microsoft', like they did Apple not so long ago. And then if the answer to every linux question wasn't a pile of command line gobbledy-gook, microsoft would cease to exist entirely.

Carry on, AC has done his work for now.

Re:Legal?

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, it's perfectly expectable that your software that's made for windows exclusively won't work.

Find the linux equivalent.

There are many replacements for each of your favourite programs.

Yes, you'll have to learn how to use them (just as you did with your favourite programs).

Re:Legal?

[Anonymous Coward]

Good lord, I understand the MS hate, but this is getting a little over the top, guys.

Re:Legal?

[Zero__Kelvin]

No. You don't seem to understand. Said hardware works fine "on" Linux. I don't know of a single major NIC that isn't supported by Linux. Can you name one? I didn't think so. Apology accepted.

Re: Legal?

[Zero__Kelvin]

That's fine. I give your humour a -273.15

Re: Legal?

[Zero__Kelvin]

Still awaiting a response on this one, subchad

Re:Legal?

[dpidcoe]

Just how oblivious are you? Some zero-effort googling shows a chipset on a lenovo that wasn't supported: http://www.linux.org/threads/t...
And a good number of common wireless cards (broadcom specifically?) are "supported" but usually require a weekend of wading through various forum posts and how-to guides of dubious quality in order to get the thing to cooperate.

I've yet to install linux on a laptop that didn't have issues with either the wireless and/or the wired ethernet that required jumping through quite a few hoops to make work.

I understand the consternation

[melted]

But I'm glad Microsoft is shedding legacy so aggressively. There's no way the OS will install itself automatically. It'll merely be downloaded to your machine (or machines). Install it if you want to, or don't, you still have choice.

Re:I understand the consternation

[truck_soccer]

agreed. The problem here is that 99 percent of windows users don't know how to read a message on a screen without clicking YES and DOWNLOAD NOW and YOUR PC HAS A VIRUS GIVE ME $400

Re:I understand the consternation

[binarylarry]

But Windows 10 contains SO MUCH LEGACY.

It's just bigger and slower than Windows 7. :(

Re:I understand the consternation

[Anonymous Coward]

No the problem here is that this OS vendor thinks it's OK to force users to download gigabytes against their will.

Re:I understand the consternation

[LichtSpektren]

Many users reported that they had no way to interrupt the installation, only to reschedule it or hard reboot.

Re:I understand the consternation

[Anonymous Coward]

Not true, I actually watched it automatically download and then attempt to install itself with no user interaction.

Re:I understand the consternation

[Grishnakh]

You still have a choice: you can leave this vendor and pick another vendor that doesn't treat you this way.

If you refuse to do that, however, then you deserve whatever treatment this vendor feels like giving you.

Re:I understand the consternation

[Runaway1956]

"Shedding legacy" if fine. If that were all there were to it, MS could offer Win7 users an OPTIONAL update, which turns off various legacy functions that have exploits associated with them.

That is not the case here. MS is pushing their telemetry. In effect, they want your machine to become a part of their cloud. That is unacceptable.

Re:I understand the consternation

[Anonymous Coward]

you're right except for the "against their will" part. Oh wait, that means you're wrong!

Re:I understand the consternation

[Anonymous Coward]

It doesn't ask you whether to download the gigabytes or not. Does that mean you're wrong?

Re:I understand the consternation

[peragrin]

Windows 10 auto downloaded to our work computers. However due to a glitch in Windows X it won't install and the installer crashes every time.

The work machines are just remote terminals. Only a couple of people need actual desktop. ( we use Remote Desktop to keep sessions and work across days/ desks. And it makes life easier for backups)

Re:I understand the consternation

[Solandri]

There's no way the OS will install itself automatically. It'll merely be downloaded to your machine (or machines).

That is still unacceptable behavior. My workplace is in an area where Verizon has refused to upgrade the phone lines and Time Warner doesn't cover large chunks of each block. So most businesses are on crappy 1.0-1.5 Mbps DSL connections, with the fastest possible being just 3 Mbps. Combine that with each business having 3-10 computers and this automatic multi-gigabyte download behavior is completely unacceptable. Especially for the couple businesses who've resorted to cellular LTE Internet with extremely low data caps to try to get decent speed.

Re:I understand the consternation

[jimtheowl]

I only use my paid copy of Windows 7 on weekends for gaming. Regardless of what you think I deserve I feel entitled to voice my discontent when the vendor is acting as if he owns my machine. If you want to promote people moving off Windows entirely It might eventually happen, but I don't think that you are helping.

Re:I understand the consternation

[Anonymous Coward]

> It'll merely be downloaded to your machine

Yup - it did this to me...
On a machine that connects to the internet via a 3G dongle...
With a 500MB/month data plan...

Downloading both win8.1 and 10.0 (without asking) cost us in the region of 150 GBP.

Re:I understand the consternation

[Jerry Atrick]

1: this infection defaults to enabled in the optional update list, it's trying to get installed 'by accident'. Trying very hard.

2: it's burning 3Gb of my deliberately small C: partition and every time I deleted the installer it just downloaded it again.

That's not looking like any sort of choice to me unless I revert the entire OS to an unsafe state without security updates. Given I don't have a clean ISO for Win8 with Bing that's going to be a challenge.

They truly are scum.

Re:I understand the consternation

[The MAZZTer]

It SHOULD be ok. The problem is some ISPs make it expensive. Hopefully if nothing else this will put them under an uncomfortable magnifying lens.

Re:I understand the consternation

[LichtSpektren]

1: this infection defaults to enabled in the optional update list, it's trying to get installed 'by accident'. Trying very hard.

2: it's burning 3Gb of my deliberately small C: partition and every time I deleted the installer it just downloaded it again.

That's not looking like any sort of choice to me unless I revert the entire OS to an unsafe state without security updates. Given I don't have a clean ISO for Win8 with Bing that's going to be a challenge.

They truly are scum.

You can use Windows 8 to make an ISO of itself for backup. See here: http://windows.microsoft.com/e...

Re:I understand the consternation

[johanw]

"But I'm glad Microsoft is shedding legacy so aggressively."

A dangerous course of action. "Legacy" (i.e. win23) is what keeping MS' market share large. Shred that and their market share vanishes. Windows Phone market share, in the lower single digits and shrinking, is a good example of that.

Re:I understand the consternation

[Jerry Atrick]

...which will include the GWX, Win Update and telemetry I want rid of.

Re:I understand the consternation

[LichtSpektren]

Removing the telemetry in Windows 7 and 8.1 is possible if you know what you're doing (unlike Windows 10, at least so far). See here: https://gist.github.com/xvital...

Re:I understand the consternation

[Maxo-Texas]

Except Microsoft has already installed the windows 10 update without user input at least once. It could happen again any time.

http://arstechnica.com/informa...

"over the last couple of days, the situation seems to have become a little more aggressive. We've received a number of reports that people's systems are not merely downloading the installer but actually starting it up. Our own testing shows that, yes, the optional update is getting chosen by default, and that's not supposed to happen to optional updates."

Re:I understand the consternation

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is not only the ISP usage limits, but the amount of storage used up on the affected PCs. It's likely not an issue for PCs with terrabytes of storage, but there are a lot of lower-end PCs out there with 32GB of storage or less that could be seriously affected.

Re:I understand the consternation

[WaffleMonster]

But I'm glad Microsoft is shedding legacy so aggressively.

I'm glad they are shedding their integrity so aggressively.

There's no way the OS will install itself automatically. It'll merely be downloaded to your machine (or machines).

Its great Microsoft pays our Internet bills and purchases hard disks for everyone.

Re:I understand the consternation

[cfalcon]

I want you to be modded "+5 Sad Truth"

Re:I understand the consternation

[Opportunist]

Startup of Win7 takes 2 seconds for me. That's fast enough, thank you.

Re:I understand the consternation

[Opportunist]

I watched it try so hard and desperate to download something, but couldn't for it could not create a folder called $windows.~BT

There was a file by that name...

Re:I understand the consternation

[Anonymous Coward]

Many users reported that they had no way to interrupt the installation, only to reschedule it or hard reboot.

I always thought hacking a computer to install malware that the user does not want was a crime?

Re:I understand the consternation

[PRMan]

Windows 10 is much faster than Windows 7. It has a lot of weaknesses, but this isn't one of them.

Re:I understand the consternation

[Anonymous Coward]

I feel entitled to voice my discontent when the vendor is acting as if he owns my machine.

And another one who agreed to the EULa without bothering to read it.

Re:I understand the consternation

[Archangel Michael]

The problem isn't with what Microsoft is doing, as Google is doing it too, and Apple to a lesser extent. The problem is, that they have a legacy of being evil, one they continue to embrace and extend. Who here remembers their "Scroogle" marketing push? Well all that supposed good will is now gone, as they are doing the very thing they were chastising Google for, only worse.

The thing of it is, this will lead to their eventual death, as they think this is still the 90's and that they have a monopoly.

Re:I understand the consternation

[armanox]

For a business you should be using WSUS for your updates and your admins should block the Windows 10 update package.

Re:I understand the consternation

[Anonymous Coward]

No. Regardless of ISP shenanigans, it's not OK for the software vendor to unilaterally force this download.
What if everyone did it?

Re: I understand the consternation

[melted]

Would you rather live with shitty application ecosystem that has to support everything down to the lowest common denominator of Windows XP? They do make a significant effort to make this low impact. They only download over a wired connection, and deprioritize this traffic.

Re:I understand the consternation

[The-Ixian]

I agree completely.

Windows 10 on the same hardware I was running Windows 7. The UI of Windows 10 *feels* a lot snappier and the big 3D games I play perform just as well.

It used to be that a new version of Windows would push the hardware envelope to the max and necessitate new hardware.

I guess that hardware has leveled off somewhat.

Re:I understand the consternation

[The-Ixian]

First rule in IT: Never put 100% stock in what users tell you. Always test for yourself.

Re:I understand the consternation

[The-Ixian]

If the computer is part of a Windows domain this update will never be installed and you will never see the "upgrade notification".

Re:I understand the consternation

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it should _not_ be okay. Maybe I want to watch a movie as opposed to having WU suck up all of my bandwidth at a given moment in time. _Maybe_ I don't want gigabytes of storage consumed on my disk for something I don't want if I don't want it on a particular machine. Maybe I have a satellite-based ISP because of where I live and would prefer not to have that level of bandwidth consumed without permission (hint: those ISPs are expensive because it's expensive to launch the hardware required, in part; they also don't get to leverage scale as easily because fewer people need them but the people that do often have no other option). Maybe MS shouldn't be a bunch of presumptuous dirtwads and just ask me if I want it. If I do I'll say yes; if I don't I don't need them chewing up the data to download it in the first place. Maybe I'd just assume have _some_ control over _my_ stuff because it's _mine._

Re:I understand the consternation

[Grishnakh]

You can voice your discontent all you want, but if you continue patronizing that vendor, then you're just a fool. The vendor *does* own the OS on your machine; that's the whole nature of software licensing. If you don't trust your vendor, then don't purchase licensing from them. This was made abundantly clear in the EULA you agreed to, and had every opportunity to back out of.

Re:I understand the consternation

[hairyfeet]

Sorry but that is BULLSHIT as I've had to clean several Windows 10 update infections off of users PCs and guess what? There was NO cancel, you could upgrade now, or upgrade later, but if you got it completely downloaded you got NO choice when it come to just saying "do not want".

I only see that type of behavior on one other type of software...malware. I will now be disabling auto-updates and advising my customers to do the same and will instead be providing links to either WSUS Offline or Autopatcher. Its fucking disgusting that they would shove their shit into a system the OS requires to stay updated and I hope they are sued.

Re:I understand the consternation

[hairyfeet]

Here ya go, just use this simple windows OS update blocker, no need to even install, just run it, and you too will never see Windows OS upgrade infections again...oh and you're welcome, old Hairy is glad to help ;-)

Re:I understand the consternation

[Anonymous Coward]

No, I'd rather them ask me if I want to download 3+ gigabytes of something I don't want. Maybe I want to use those gigabytes to store something else.

Re:I understand the consternation

[Anonymous Coward]

For a business you should be using WSUS for your updates and your admins should block the Windows 10 update package.

Maybe you weren't reading. A business with only 3 or 5 computers may actually be using Home versions of Windows and quite likely will not have an admin.

Re:I understand the consternation

[Anonymous Coward]

Its 2015. For consumers, this is how computers work now.

Consumers are not administrators. Consumers are not capable, nor are willing to administer windows machines.

In 2015 computers for consumers are service. End of story.

For Microsoft to survive they need to shed their legacy products. This means anything previous to 10. The vista debacle that kept XP around set them back a good decade and they can't afford the same mess again. This means pushing 10 at any cost.

It really is best for everyone this way. We'll hopefully see less shitpile malwarefest computers that's been generally representative of the windows experience for the public for the last decade or so.

And those that don't like the new regime can go to Linux or Mac. Also a good thing.

Re:I understand the consternation

[omnichad]

It's just like electing a president. A third-party OS is not going to gain enough userbase to make it a worthy competitor. This is why we free market capitalism doesn't work - we need safeguards for consumers. Linux is only good for advanced users who don't need other commercial software.

Re:I understand the consternation

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it's NEVER ok to make people download GB when they SPECIFICALLY said NO. When I received the popup for Windows 10, I click NO, so why in hell should they be able to send me those sh*t install files on my HD?

Re: I understand the consternation

[nomel]

Benchmarks?

All that I can find are pretty negligible, especially since we're probably not at the equivalent of 10.1 yet.

Re:I understand the consternation

[Grishnakh]

The president thing is a bad analogy: we have crappy choices there because we have a rigged election system that mathematically prevents us from having any more choices. It's an unavoidable by-product of the first-past-the-post voting system: there can be only two. Other countries don't have that problem, because they have better voting systems.

There's no rigging going on with OSes. People are free to choose between Windows, Mac, and a ridiculous number of Linux variants (many of them being far easier to install and maintain than Windows), plus a few others. If they continue to choose Windows despite MS's abuse, then they deserve whatever they get.

How is free-market capitalism not working here? You seem to disagree with the choices of the majority, and you're telling them they're all wrong. If they like being spied on, who are you to tell them that's wrong?

Re:I understand the consternation

[Anonymous Coward]

Blame MS for that, they do it on purpose. If MS automatically installs some software to user's machine which asks something cryptic on each startup, user will soon automatically dismiss any dialog on system startup.

Re:I understand the consternation

[Anonymous Coward]

But you can not get the money back when the MS ruins a OS version user has bought and has been using for years. Of course a sane user will not buy anything new from a vendor which treats its customers as MS nowadays does.

Re:I understand the consternation

[MachineShedFred]

I've never understood the boot time argument in the post-Windows Vista world. You do that, what, once a day, maybe? For most people that don't shut down or reboot unnecessarily, it's once a week or so. You just saved 30 seconds out of a week. Who gives a shit?

Re:I understand the consternation

[Grishnakh]

But you can not get the money back when the MS ruins a OS version user has bought and has been using for years.

Yep, that's the problem with purchasing software licenses. Caveat emptor.

Of course a sane user will not buy anything new from a vendor which treats its customers as MS nowadays does.

Exactly, this is my whole point!!

Re:I understand the consternation

[Maxo-Texas]

Except it was verified to be happening by ArsTechnica.

Microsoft responded that they had "accidentally" set the behavior this way.

Never put 100% stock in anything a corporation- much less Microsoft (serial liars since the last century)- say.

Microsoft isn't all bad but they are massive scammers and have a long history of bald-faced lying and being caught lying.

Re:I understand the consternation

[stooo]

Cool, let's disable updates altogether, and just let security holes wide open.
What a nice advice....

Re:I understand the consternation

[thegarbz]

You still have a choice: you can leave this vendor and pick another vendor

There was a multi-year long antitrust battle that Microsoft lost where the courts decided quite matter of fact that no, most people do not have that option.

Re:I understand the consternation

[mschwanke97402]

"But I'm glad Microsoft is shedding legacy so aggressively. There's no way the OS will install itself automatically. It'll merely be downloaded to your machine (or machines). Install it if you want to, or don't, you still have choice."

Shill much?

Microsoft has no business pushing 6GB down to our computers without having explicit, opt-in permission from the computer's owner. Some of us have limited bandwidth and other have limited free space on our hard drives. Further they have no business installing an always running nag with no option to tell it "no, thanks".

I wonder how many computers they'll break with their plan to automatically install Windows 10 via Windows Update come next year? I know I've been busy reverting folks' computers for them so far.

Microsoft's behavior with their "Get Windows Ten" campaign has been shameful, if not criminal!

Re:I understand the consternation

[Grishnakh]

So what? Do you happen to remember what the punishment was in that case? Oh yeah, there wasn't any.

And that case was about them bundling IE and Windows; that's no longer applicable because so many people use Firefox and Chrome these days.

Re:I understand the consternation

[Anonymous Coward]

Mine even heated up a burrito in the microwave for me, while I waited for it to finish installing.

Re:I understand the consternation

[Anonymous Coward]

I found hitting the big red X in the corner works, but yeah the only options presented are 'Install Now' and 'Install Later'. Kinda a shit more IMO.

Re:I understand the consternation

[thegarbz]

So what? Do you happen to remember what the punishment was in that case? Oh yeah, there wasn't any.

I didn't say there was. I was just calling out your comment that you're free to chose a vendor. You're not. Not unless you build a computer yourself and then knowingly chose a platform that is not compatible with most of the common products on the market.

I have software that doesn't run on Mac or Linux. I don't know of any computer store I can go to here where I can buy a computer which isn't pre-loaded with Windows, limiting myself only to buying Apple or a very tiny subset of Dell machines on the market.

That's not an alternative. Not in my eyes, not in the eyes of the DoJ, not in the eyes of the EC. So you can say people have a choice all you want, but in the general case you're quite wrong.

Re:I understand the consternation

[Sabriel]

So you really think that all the small business that have a mere half dozen machines should go through the gods-damned rigmarole of buying Windows Server from Microsoft, configuring it, securing it and connecting their machines to it, just so they don't have to deal with Microsoft forcing an OS change on them?

... By any chance do you work in Microsoft Sales?

Re:I understand the consternation

[Anonymous Coward]

Removing the telemetry in Windows 7 and 8.1 is possible if you know what you're doing (unlike Windows 10, at least so far). See here: https://gist.github.com/xvital...

Thanks for the link. The recommendation to use IE9 maximum on Win7 is going to create some challenges once Microsoft officially drops support for IE9 in Win7 come January: https://support.microsoft.com/...

Re:I understand the consternation

[painandgreed]

That is still unacceptable behavior. My workplace is in an area where Verizon has refused to upgrade the phone lines and Time Warner doesn't cover large chunks of each block. So most businesses are on crappy 1.0-1.5 Mbps DSL connections, with the fastest possible being just 3 Mbps. Combine that with each business having 3-10 computers and this automatic multi-gigabyte download behavior is completely unacceptable. Especially for the couple businesses who've resorted to cellular LTE Internet with extremely low data caps to try to get decent speed.

And Microsoft will respond the way they always do, "Have your domain admin go into Active Directory and set a group policy to prevent the download and installation of Win10."

Re:I understand the consternation

[Anonymous Coward]

I always thought ...?

Why are you asking us what you thought? It's your job to remember your thoughts.

Re:I understand the consternation

[Grishnakh]

I have software that doesn't run on Mac or Linux.

It was your choice to purchase broken software.

I don't know of any computer store I can go to here where I can buy a computer which isn't pre-loaded with Windows

What is "here"? A local area? What kind of backwards person still buys computers at local shops? It's easy to buy computers without Windows online.

That's not an alternative.

Yes, it is an alternative. Just because it isn't served up on a silver platter for you doesn't mean you don't have alternatives. And seriously, buying computers locally? How idiotic.

not in the eyes of the DoJ, not in the eyes of the EC.

Bullshit. Show me where these entities have actually done anything to change MS's behavior. Some opinion written by a discredited judge is irrelevant.

Re:I understand the consternation

[Anonymous Coward]

The first computer to finish downloading will seed to the other local computers.

Re:I understand the consternation

[Anonymous Coward]

But if you're on a metered connection (ie a lot of mobile broadband plans), it would be bad for you :/

Re:I understand the consternation

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you for this incredibly useful advice, now I don't mind windows wasting my time and bandwith. Making backups and restoring is so much fun.

Re:I understand the consternation

[Anonymous Coward]

But I'm glad Microsoft is shedding legacy so aggressively. There's no way the OS will install itself automatically. It'll merely be downloaded to your machine (or machines). Install it if you want to, or don't, you still have choice.

The CHOICE should be to not have to download and store it if you don't want it. Not to install or not install.

I've already had to delete it from my machine once after it downloaded without my permission. They want to store Win10 installation files on my hard drive, they should pay me for the space. And as my drive is fairly full, that price would be pretty high.

Also, offshore on an oil rig, where bandwidth is at a premium, I suspect 100 computers downloading Win10 is going to choke it.

How many machines will be more and more vulnerable because people turned of automatic updates to keep that shit off their machines?

Re:I understand the consternation

[Maxo-Texas]

Trivial.. and one of many

http://www.zdnet.com/article/m...

"Admitting to its mistake, and adding that it would "comply immediately" with the European authorities, the software giant knew it would face an all but inevitable fine for failing to include the settlement-assured "browser choice" screen."

Re:I understand the consternation

[Anonymous Coward]

Boot times are the same.
Windows 8 and 10 simply added a partial hibernate feature ("fast startup") and disguised it as boot.
But then you might as well just use sleep or hibernate in 7, which is even faster and keeps your programs open.

Re:I understand the consternation

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit.
Just about every decent benchmark shows them to be neck and neck, with 7 coming up on top sometimes.
10 might be faster in some specific cases, but "much faster" it is not, at all.

Re:I understand the consternation

[BadDreamer]

Which helps not at all when they all start downloading before any one of them are finished.

Re:I understand the consternation

[BadDreamer]

Except you will, as Microsoft keep adding ways to work around third party blockers. It doesn't work completely right now, for example, only mostly.

Re:I understand the consternation

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone saying the UI feels "snappier" is being blinded by tweaks to the UI code. A modern CPU is so fast that if the UI was allowed to update "as fast as possible" then it would be difficult to use. Windows (and others) actually has delays built in to control the ordering and appearance of all UI elements. From a usability perspective this is actually a good thing, and has been refined over decades of UI testing (earlier work done by many many others before Microsoft) to help the user to use the computer. If the MS marketing department decide to push the "Win10 faster" message, then those UI timing settings are tweaked to make it "feel" faster to the user.

Which is of course, bullshit.

As the parent poster states, Win10 benchmarks to be just as fast as Win7, which is as it should be. When my programs are running the OS needs to get the fuck out of the way, and I would like to think that by now the CS community is merely tweaking caching, IO and memory scheduling for edge cases. In most situations it will be running as well as it can.

Re:I understand the consternation

[Anonymous Coward]

And by "cloud" you mean "someone else's computer"...

Re:I understand the consternation

[dfm3]

Note the 3-10 computers part. The GP is not talking about large corporate environments, but small businesses for which WSUS would be complete overkill. My wife's business has two employees, four computers, and does not have the time (or the expertise) to put up with this BS arms race against Microsoft just to keep their computers working the way they expect them to. Thankfully I know enough to help them stay ahead of the curve, but we'd switch away from Microsoft products entirely if their clients didn't require proprietary software that only runs in Windows.

Re: I understand the consternation

[allo]

yes, i would.

Re:I understand the consternation

[Anonymous Coward]

I've heard that one the last 20 years. Windows 10 is faster than Windows 7, 7 was faster than XP, XP was faster than 2000, 2000 was faster than 98 and 98 was faster than 95.

I tend to offer people making that claim that I'll dig up a 386 and have them prove it.

Nope, what happens is that Windows gets slower with every update, every service pack, and a brand new release is faster than a bogged down version of the previous OS, but not faster than the previous OS was before it got slowed down.

Re:I understand the consternation

[Anonymous Coward]

You can't complain about MS pushing their telemetry. They are a business, and they are going to do whatever it takes to improve their products. If you don't want to become a part of their cloud, stop using their products.

Re:I understand the consternation

[Anonymous Coward]

I recommend Pro even for home users. Hell even for print managment and local policies it is worth the extra cost.

Re:I understand the consternation

[Anonymous Coward]

is boot time a problem? my windows 10 machine boots up in around 6 seconds to a usable desktop.

Re:I understand the consternation

[Runaway1956]

I can complain. And, I have stopped using their prototype products. The only use I have for Windows, is in virtual machines, for experimentation. And, I can still complain about unethical bullshit. It's my computer, my bandwidth, my data. The hardware store that sold me hammers, shovels, saws, etc doesn't have some right to follow me around to see how I use those tools. Microsoft has no right either.

Re:I understand the consternation

[kmoser]

Thanks for filling up all my remaining hard drive space, Microsoft.

Re:I understand the consternation

[Anonymous Coward]

You just saved 30 seconds out of a week.

I have two laptops on my desk mine running Kubuntu and the company Win7 laptop. The Win7 is newer than mine. If I fire them up both at the same time the Kubuntu machine is up and running I have logged into and I am reading my mail BEFORE Win7 even gets to the boot screen. Sure I don't reboot the win7 machine as much as the good old days of XP but your saved 30 seconds is total bull shit. It's more like 3 minutes before the Win machine is up and logged in and ready to do work.

Re:I understand the consternation

[thegarbz]

It was your choice to purchase broken software.

No it wasn't. And there's no point arguing with me. I'm just one man on the internet. I'll let you argue with the DoJ and EC. They are the ones that decided this. I just agree with them.

And seriously, buying computers locally? How idiotic.

Yes because I'm in a foreign country with no credit card. How idiotic of me that I can't get a credit card due to local immigration rules for at least the first 6 months. I must be some kind of a moron to actually have a computer store within walking distance from my house that price matches online deals. Yet provides me with a brick and mortar store to return my stuff too if I have a warranty claim, and takes cash.

Show me where these entities have actually done anything to change MS's behavior.

Well if you think this has anything to do with the discussion I'm going to just go with you're a retard.

Some opinion written by a discredited judge is irrelevant.

Nope I take it back. You're upgraded to full retard.

Re:I understand the consternation

[doccus]

Cool, let's disable updates altogether, and just let security holes wide open.
What a nice advice....

You can if you want. I'll stick with the unfortunately named "update blocker" which should have been referred to as "Windows OS Upgrade blocker" since what it actually does is make windows update wotk exactly like it did in Windows 7 again. PS THX Hairy...

Re:I understand the consternation

[Anonymous Coward]

Wat? I'd want to choose whether it downloads or not too!

That level of bandwidth waste can even be extremely expensive to some users.

Re:I understand the consternation

[david_thornley]

Businesses with 3-10 computers are unlikely to have admins, or for that matter someone who knows what WSUS is.

Re:I understand the consternation

[Grishnakh]

No, you're the retard if you think some opinion by a judge matters one whit when there is ZERO enforcement action attached to the case. "Guilty" doesn't mean squat when there's nothing more than a slap on the wrist, moron.

And yes, you're an idiot if you've never heard of a prepaid debit card.

Re:I understand the consternation

[raremediumwelldone]

Thank you so much!

My wife uses her PC to work from home (medical transcription) and she's currently on Windows 7. Her transcription software should work on Windows 10 just fine, but if she ran into problems... it's not currently supported on that OS. So she'd have to wipe her system and use the built-in restore partition to go back to Windows 7 and then re-install her work programs, etc.

Which, when you have deadlines (minutes per week) to meet on 2 different contracts. would be a massive pain in the ass. Thank you again and take care.

Re:I understand the consternation

[bensch128]

Here ya go, just use this simple windows OS update blocker, no need to even install, just run it, and you too will never see Windows OS upgrade infections again...oh and you're welcome, old Hairy is glad to help ;-)

I would never install an OS update blocker.

I enjoy killing GWX.exe as the first thing I do after logging into my Windows 7 machine way too much

Along with Adobe Creative Cloud.

It gets my juices going in the morning

Re:I understand the consternation

[Anonymous Coward]

to get around 'hidden' updates.. they simply reissue them or change their category (optional, recommended, important) which ignores previous settings...

get ready for that second one, as that's how windows 10 will get shoved down our throats. right now, many of the related updates are recommended or optional.. but that will change.. and the windows 10 upgrade itself will slowly migrate from optional (no more gwx app), to recommended, and finally to important over the next 6-12 months.

while there are some reports of auto installing windows 10 upgrade... it's intended behaviour coming up is to download, do all the work to install, up to the first reboot needed... THEN at that point give users the choice to continue with the upgrade (default choice, of course, which most people click without reading) or keep existing version.

to get around a user deliberately setting a flag to tell windows update they do not want os upgrades.. they simply flip that switch back on, enabling the windows 10 downloads.

to get around the sensible setting of "important updates only" they just put telemetry, spying, and activation (e.g. 971033) bullshit into 'important' updates.... rendering the 'automatically install updates' (even with recommended updates disabled) near-useless.

download-then-notify or notify-before-download are the only sane choices, which requires constant and time consuming babysitting to check each update prior to install (click, click, click, open browser, read details, decide, repeat...) since windows update itself mostly just shovels shit and no specifics of any kind. even the windows 10 gwx update simply is described in windows update as 'this update resolves issues in windows'.. seriously? what the flying fuck? what issues does gwx "resolve"? answer: none. what issues does gwx introduce? answer: too many to list in a single slashdot comment.

in short, microsoft does whatever the fuck they want to, and we're just supposed to bend over for them (and the three letter agencies that are their puppet masters for some things).

Re:I understand the consternation

[Anonymous Coward]

First rule as users. Remember that IT doesn't care about you. They also may know less than you do.

Re:I understand the consternation

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're working on other people's computers, More so, if you're working on several, long boot times become a huge pain in the ass. Especially when you have an impatient company employee that can't do any work until you're finished and the process takes multiple reboots. Long reboots can make troubleshooting an even bigger pain in the ass.

Let's be clear

[squiggleslash]

This is going to be fucking annoying, no question about it, as you'll be hit with dialogs assuming you want to install. But there's next to no chance you'll accidentally install Windows 10. There are too many things you need to confirm before the install starts for that to happen. Plus, there's an "Undo" option in Windows 10 itself that lets you revert.

It's still mindboggling stupid of Microsoft to do this, especially with the half-finished bug-ridden unresponsive crap that is Windows 10 in its current form, but no, "accidentally installing Windows 10" is just about impossible. Even the computer illiterate are going to know this is what they're doing, even if they don't necessarily know the full ramifications.

Re:Let's be clear

[LichtSpektren]

Sorry, you're mistaken. Read the comments on Ars Technica for the previous article: once the Windows 10 update was accidentally downloaded, it couldn't be stopped, only rescheduled. Some users had to go through the full update and then do the full regression back to Windows 7.

Re:Let's be clear

[Bigbutt]

Yep. That's where I was. I simply let it go and then tested my apps. Everything seems to still work but there wasn't a clean way to prevent the upgrade. I'm still checking some of the third tier apps I use (don't run very often but want to check) and can just reinstall Windows 7 if I find something horribly bad (yes, I have regular backups as well).

[John]

Re:Let's be clear

[LichtSpektren]

Yep. That's where I was. I simply let it go and then tested my apps. Everything seems to still work but there wasn't a clean way to prevent the upgrade. I'm still checking some of the third tier apps I use (don't run very often but want to check) and can just reinstall Windows 7 if I find something horribly bad (yes, I have regular backups as well).

[John]

See here: http://www.howtogeek.com/22072...

Re:Let's be clear

[squiggleslash]

I've been through the upgrade process twice now. I also have a PC that Microsoft was pestering me for a long time to upgrade. It's simply not true that you can go ahead and install Windows 10 without user intervention. (Additionally, how do you "accidentally download" something that's already downloaded? That's a major complaint most of us have about GWX, it downloads Windows 10 without asking us, filling up around 5Gb of our disks.)

Re:Let's be clear

[LichtSpektren]

You're mistaken. My coworker came back from the weekend (this was in September I think) and found her Windows 7 Pro machine to have Windows 10 on it.

Re:Let's be clear

[squiggleslash]

Like the sibling, I would go with "Someone did this for them". The installation process asks questions throughout the install, before, during, and after. You cannot proceed with the install without answering the questions.

Re:Let's be clear

[LichtSpektren]

Right, somebody broke into our locked office building just to maliciously update our OSes? It happened on her computer because her updates were set to "Install updated automatically (recommended)". Perhaps your settings are different. But lots of users have reported Windows 10 installing without any user interaction whatsoever.

Re:Let's be clear

[LichtSpektren]

Like the sibling, I would go with "Someone did this for them". The installation process asks questions throughout the install, before, during, and after. You cannot proceed with the install without answering the questions.

I'm not sure what else to tell you. Maybe eventually somebody will make a recording of Windows 10 installing itself, but until then, your assurances fly in the face of my experience, and the reports of several people.

Re:Let's be clear

[LichtSpektren]

Like the sibling, I would go with "Someone did this for them". The installation process asks questions throughout the install, before, during, and after. You cannot proceed with the install without answering the questions.

I'm not sure what else to tell you. Maybe eventually somebody will make a recording of Windows 10 installing itself, but until then, your assurances fly in the face of my experience, and the reports of several people.

Addendum: do you realize that Microsoft admitted that this was occurring two months ago?

Re:Let's be clear

[squiggleslash]

"Your" experience is second hand, and appears to be someone playing a practical joke upon a co-worker. The "reports of several people" seems dubious too.

I have my own direct experience of how the install works, I've done it twice. Given actual, first hand, experience of three machines - two installed, one not - given the fact millions of people would be protesting if there had ever been a period whereby Windows 10 "installed itself" without bringing up a single cancellable dialog, and given the severe legal situation Microsoft would be in if it ever tried to pull this stunt, I would seriously advice you to locate the practical joker in your office.

Re:Let's be clear

[LichtSpektren]

"Your" experience is second hand, and appears to be someone playing a practical joke upon a co-worker. The "reports of several people" seems dubious too.

I have my own direct experience of how the install works, I've done it twice. Given actual, first hand, experience of three machines - two installed, one not - given the fact millions of people would be protesting if there had ever been a period whereby Windows 10 "installed itself" without bringing up a single cancellable dialog, and given the severe legal situation Microsoft would be in if it ever tried to pull this stunt, I would seriously advice you to locate the practical joker in your office.

Oh, like the severe legal situation Microsoft would be in if they downloaded 12 GB (or however much it is) without asking the user? Or sending their personal information to 100+ domains without the ability to turn it off? Yeah, they admitted they were doing this and that too.

But keep telling yourself that there is a ghost that is floating to peoples' computers and maliciously installing operating systems on them. Microsoft already apologized two months ago for doing what you're denying is occurring.

Re:Let's be clear

[Ol Olsoc]

and can just reinstall Windows 7 if I find something horribly bad (yes, I have regular backups as well).

[John]

Yeah - "Just"

Re:Let's be clear

[Opportunist]

The blunder is already that they force a download of multiple gigabytes onto the users. Some of us are on metered links, especially when using any kind of wireless internet connection via a cell phone provider. 3.something gigabytes is pretty much what some users may use per month, simply because they chose their plan according to their needs. Not Microsoft's!

Re:Let's be clear

[Ol Olsoc]

Right, somebody broke into our locked office building just to maliciously update our OSes? It happened on her computer because her updates were set to "Install updated automatically (recommended)". Perhaps your settings are different. But lots of users have reported Windows 10 installing without any user interaction whatsoever.

Fuggidaboudit! These shills wil just continut to deny reality until you give up. They'll tell you that Microsoft does nothing of th sort, that You don't have to opt out of their key logger, and there isn't even a keyloggewr, and besides, they won't use the kelogger that they dont have that you don't have to opt out of.

Microsoft has been doing you have no choice updates since Windows 8 days, even though they haven't, and even if they id it must have been me in a trance or the neighbor breaking into th ehouse and figuring out our passwords and telling it to update.

Shills? It's really time for you to come up with better lies. The old ones are sounding a little pathetic these days.

Re:Let's be clear

[Ol Olsoc]

Like the sibling, I would go with "Someone did this for them". The installation process asks questions throughout the install, before, during, and after. You cannot proceed with the install without answering the questions.

Absolutely. I found one of the neighbors in my house, who got past the security systems, deduced my passphrase, booted my computer and installed Windows 10.

Sounds legit!

So shill, why are you calling all of these people liars?

Re:Let's be clear

[Ol Olsoc]

I'm not sure what else to tell you. Maybe eventually somebody will make a recording of Windows 10 installing itself, but until then, your assurances fly in the face of my experience, and the reports of several people.

Addendum: do you realize that Microsoft admitted that this was occurring two months ago?

He probably deny's all of the "features" of W10, like the keylogger, the password sharing, and phoning home with things you told them not to after having to opt out of them eh, squiggleslash?

It gets pretty freaky when people tell you you did not see something you saw, or experienced something you experienced. And continue to do so even when proven wrong, as noted by the very company they are shilling for. Kind of like trying to force cognitive dissonance on you.

Re:Let's be clear

[Anonymous Coward]

Not true. This weekend I chose "Download now, Install later". After the download, a dialog popped up with the option to schedule the install for sometime in the next five days(later), or install now. There was no option not to install and no dialog close button. I did a hard reboot, so I chose neither. We will see if that worked.

Re:Let's be clear

[squiggleslash]

Oh, like the severe legal situation Microsoft would be in if they downloaded 12 GB (or however much it is) without asking the user?

It's nowhere near 12Gb, but yes, there's a world of difference between using up more disk space and actually replacing their current relatively light weight operating system that runs the applications they have installed with one likely to fail at many applications that requires oodles more memory. In other words, rendering many, many, computers unusable for the purpose with which they're used.

But keep telling yourself that there is a ghost that is floating to peoples' computers and maliciously installing operating systems on them.

That's your position, not mine, except you've called the Ghost Microsoft. I have no idea who installed Windows 10 on your co-workers PC, but I know that someone did and you've decided - rather than using Occam's Razor - to instead blame Microsoft because Microsoft sucks, right?

You don't seem to be bothered with the facts here. You've apparently never installed Windows 10, and thus are blissfully unaware that it asks questions before it starts installing.

I have run it. I actually know what I'm talking about. Between the legal situation and actual experience, I know your interpretation of events is utterly absurd.

I'll await that video, thanks. Just an FYI: it'll never come.

Re:Let's be clear

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you retarded?

Re:Let's be clear

[Maxo-Texas]

Also add the bricking reports on reddit to the unasked update reports on Arstechnica.

You can't revert if the update kills your computer. Some people have had to reinstall from media (couldn't use the on disk backup partition).

Re:Let's be clear

[squiggleslash]

Who do you work for? Apple? Google? Just curious, you seem to be very keen on calling me a "shill" despite my history of (usually modded down) criticism of Windows 10, some of which is even in the message this posted. Yes, I'm sure I'm being paid by Microsoft for posting that Windows 10 is shitty, bug ridden, and unresponsive, in virtually every thread where it's relevant. Hey, Microsoft, where's my fucking cash? Did you give it to Ol Olsoc? If so, can you tell him to give me my money?

I haven't called anyone a liar yet, but I'm getting close. The responses I'm getting to my original comment are simply impossible: as I've said, I've actually run the installer twice. It asks questions before installation. There's no way in hell to get around that. The questions are asked. The installer waits.

So whatever it is that supposedly happened to those claiming Windows 10 installed all by themselves, it wasn't anything to do with the standard GWX installer. Maybe it was people yessing dialog boxes to death and then claiming "It installed all by itself" once they realized that, oops, maybe they shouldn't have. Or, as I said, perhaps some jerk in the same office was playing a practical joke.

Or yeah, maybe Microsoft released two versions of the installer, a special superdooper automated one that actually controls the mouse and has it click its own buttons that is installed only on, like, ten machines out there, and a different one for every other Windows user in the world.

Because that conspiracy theory makes way more sense than "A user fucked up or had a joke played on them."

Re:Let's be clear

[Bigbutt]

Well I do have a CentOS 7 disk in addition to the Windows disk. Since I do game (Rocksmith), I am somewhat limited in my options; Microsoft, Apple, or Sony. At least as far as gaming is concerned.

I am right on the cusp of playing guitar without using the Windows partition but I still pop in now and then.

On the plus side, the flakiness of Firefox in Windows 10 is about the same level of flakiness of Firefox in CentOS (the nVidia drivers in both places I imagine) so other than Rocksmith and Carmageddon, using one or the other just depends on which one I select on boot.

[John]

Re:Let's be clear

[Tharkkun]

You're mistaken. My coworker came back from the weekend (this was in September I think) and found her Windows 7 Pro machine to have Windows 10 on it.

Why did your company not install the Windows 10 blocker? We pushed this to every machine, 125k end user pc's before the upgrades started happening. Also most Business PC's are not eligible for the upgrade per your corporate licensing so these companies should be taking action to prevent the upgrades.

Re:Let's be clear

[Tharkkun]

Right, somebody broke into our locked office building just to maliciously update our OSes? It happened on her computer because her updates were set to "Install updated automatically (recommended)". Perhaps your settings are different. But lots of users have reported Windows 10 installing without any user interaction whatsoever.

The more likely story is this. User thought it would be cool to upgrade and after it was complete realized many of your internal applications didn't run with the latest IE or web browser. So instead of admitting it they claim it automatically upgraded. 17 years in IT says they lied.

Re:Let's be clear

[Tharkkun]

"Your" experience is second hand, and appears to be someone playing a practical joke upon a co-worker. The "reports of several people" seems dubious too.

I have my own direct experience of how the install works, I've done it twice. Given actual, first hand, experience of three machines - two installed, one not - given the fact millions of people would be protesting if there had ever been a period whereby Windows 10 "installed itself" without bringing up a single cancellable dialog, and given the severe legal situation Microsoft would be in if it ever tried to pull this stunt, I would seriously advice you to locate the practical joker in your office.

Oh, like the severe legal situation Microsoft would be in if they downloaded 12 GB (or however much it is) without asking the user? Or sending their personal information to 100+ domains without the ability to turn it off? Yeah, they admitted they were doing this and that too. But keep telling yourself that there is a ghost that is floating to peoples' computers and maliciously installing operating systems on them. Microsoft already apologized two months ago for doing what you're denying is occurring.

3GB.

Re:Let's be clear

[Tharkkun]

Like the sibling, I would go with "Someone did this for them". The installation process asks questions throughout the install, before, during, and after. You cannot proceed with the install without answering the questions.

Absolutely. I found one of the neighbors in my house, who got past the security systems, deduced my passphrase, booted my computer and installed Windows 10.

Sounds legit!

So shill, why are you calling all of these people liars?

People fib all the time once they realize they made a poor decision. Maybe they were drunk? Not paying attention. How do you think Malware walks by people so easily? You're really giving people more credit than they deserve.

Re:Let's be clear

[MachineShedFred]

So do this:
1. Reschedule for "later"
2. Delete the C:\$Windows.~BT folder and all of it's contents
3. Create a file at C:\$Windows.~BT so that the automatic downloader cannot create the directory to download that shit into. It will error and die.
4. Continue using your legacy version of Windows.

Re:Let's be clear

[Ol Olsoc]

Who do you work for? Apple? Google?

Myself.

I've done seven machines now, and Microsoft has been doing everything automatically with no input from me despite my settings. All Windows 10 Professional. An 8th is a Mac with Windows 7 in Bootcamp that I have to fight with them to keep it from installing and updating because it's a mid 2011 model, and will need a lot of experimenting to see if it will work because Apple doesn't support W10 in bootcamp that far back. So call me a liar. Makes not one bit of difference to what I and others have been experiencing.

Re:Let's be clear

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember the game xbill?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVYUP4MM2Pg

Some things never change. IMO Microsoft is very hostile but maybe it's good that they're polarizing people like this. I know a few grandma/grandpa types ditching MS and PCs over Win 8.x and 10 so that makes me feel good. I'm so grateful open software survives to this day even if it lacks in a lot of ways.

There's some times when it's better to walk away. Like the adblock wars. I stopped going to some sites that were making it through the adblock filter. I can find somewhere else to go and something else to do.

Re:Let's be clear

[Painted]

Whoa, everybody, we've got a badass over here, he's installed windows 10 TWICE. Therefore he is clearly an expert on all things Windows 10, and anything you say that differs from him clearly shows YOU are wrong.

Re:Let's be clear

[david_thornley]

"simply impossible" is a very strong phrase, and telling people what must have happened on that basis is iffy at best. Calling people liars because of your religious beliefs about Microsoft software is simply wrong.

Re:Let's be clear

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, the vast majority of people on this site are smart enough not to paste a lame sig into the body of their post. Why are you so oblivious?

Drop some acid...

[vvaduva]

Looks like Bill gates finally took Steve Jobs' advice and dropped some acid...

Re:Drop some acid...

[Anonymous Coward]

Gates did take lsd at least once in the 70's.

He and Jobs were both clever guys who wanted to get rich, and for good or ill, they got what they wanted.

Jobs may have had an aura of cool that Gates does not, but in the end, they had more in common than either would have liked to admit.

Re:Drop some acid...

[Anonymous Coward]

Naah, acid would lead to an improvement. Apple has never forced an auto OS upgrade on anyone. Apple users are free to stay on Snow Leopard or whatever for how ever long they want.
Anyway, Bill's not calling the shots anymore, and Satya Nadella doesn't seem like the type to go on a trip.

Re:Drop some acid...

[Anonymous Coward]

The key difference was, Jobs had taste.

Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[NotDrWho]

I was contemplating upgrading recently. And I don't see any reason NOT to. System requirements are the same as 7 and 8.1.

Any reason I should stop MS from upgrading me?

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[dunkelfalke]

If you have older hardware, you might have difficulties getting the drivers to work. Half of my Thinkpad X200's hardware wasn't working with Windows 10. Also Windows 10 is fugly compared to 7 and still feels like an early beta.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Revek]

if you like being spied on and never knowing what they are doing to you're property it still doesn't add anything.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[LichtSpektren]

Windows 10 phones home to over 100 different domains with your personal information. This cannot be turned off completely, except in the "Enterprise" edition (although some reports say it is still not possible there). Drivers will automatically update and the user cannot stop it; it can be delayed through some tricks, but the update will eventually happen.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Kargan]

A few....

http://www.cbc.ca/news/technol...

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/windo...

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ads in the Start menu, Telemetry, possible hardware incompatibilities?

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Anonymous Coward]

the reason not to would be that upgrading can fail. i had to call MS phone support to get them to figure out why I couldnt login after upgrading.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Cro Magnon]

Spyware, and the possibility that a W10 update will break something important.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh and, I hope you don't having anything Microsoft deems as "unacceptable" such as "pirated" software. ;-)

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Anonymous Coward]

Any reason I should stop MS from upgrading me?

Because if you were the customer, MS would be charging you for the privilege of purchasing their product.

You are the product, and MS is trying to downgrade functional Win 7 machines (general-purpose computers that run software at the user's discretion and transmit telemetry only when the user misconfigures them) into telemetry-gathering nodes on something that is becoming increasingly-indistinguishable from what we used to call a botnet.

Re: Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Anonymous Coward]

No Media Center, which is the only reason I have a PC in my family room.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's ignore the always-on NSA spyware for a second and just consider the OS.

Let me recount the unique problems I've encountered with Windows 10 that have no solution after opting to replace a Windows 7 install (not an upgrade): DNS resolver fails frequently, UI freezes every few seconds, windows do not redraw properly, applications frequently hang and have to be closed/restarted. I'll be installing Windows 7 over the Christmas period and will consider it an upgrade. Basically, there is no compelling reason to upgrade, but lots of reasons to revert.

I believe Microsoft when they claim it will be their last OS. It certainly will be for me.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Telemetry". Good enough reason for you?

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[ArchieBunker]

I removed all the live tiles and now there is nothing but a huge empty space where they were supposed to be. I know there are alternatives to the classic start menu but I refuse to rely on a third party add on. This is something broken by design.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Billly Gates]

Yes and it takes til the 1st service pack and about 2 years before it's stable as in server versions base their kernels and services only after a service pack and a year after.

Windows 8.1 is now being stable with it's updates not failing. 7 just worked. XP was funky until service pack 2 when it solidified. Windows 10 is as buggy as Vista. I am resisting upgrading until 10.1 next summer

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Overzeetop]

Ugly in what way? The flyout on the start menu? The 2 pixel smaller windows borders? My W10 looks nearly identical in most operations to my W7 installation except for those two things.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Billly Gates]

Oh and, I hope you don't having anything Microsoft deems as "unacceptable" such as "pirated" software. ;-)

Not to worry MS will just Uninstall your apps. I mean you did read the eula right?

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hardware compatibility issues, yes. The rest is your opinion... you should have stuck to the fact, you fuckwit.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[TheDarkMaster]

In my case the Windows 10 disrupts or blocks a number of useful hacks that are used in games (Skyrim as example) like SKSE and the ENB Series. I understand that is an analog behavior of a virus (SKSE injects code on the Skyrim working memory), but in Windows 7 you have the option to authorize it while Windows 10 does not work or works erratically. Also, in my honest opinion the Windows 10 GUI is a total piece of shit but that's personal preference

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Anonymous Coward]

Depends on your software. Some won't work with Win 10.

Try to drop your foolish reactionary sig, your posts are embarrassing enough without the dudebro derp. There's no value in being a clueless reactionary.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Anonymous Coward]

>I know there are alternatives to the classic start menu but I refuse to rely on a third party add on.

Then you know that your psychological issues are a big part of your problem. Random, stupid, reactionary refusal will only hurt you and the people around you.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Anonymous Coward]

As a developer, there are a great many screwy things that Windows 10 isn't compatible with. And I'm a Microsoft-stack developer!

I have old-school Windows Mobile 6.5 apps to support. Visual Studio 2008 is still required to build these apps, and it's buggy as hell on Windows 10. It randomly resizes itself (maximize/minimize/restore window sizing operations), then when you put it back to what it was, it resizes all of the text. And it can even get into cycles of resizing the window progressively jacking the interface text size up to crazy sizes. Also, the November update to Windows 10 uninstalled the WinMo build targets from it. Fortunately, there's a "power toys" package (named like a bag of dildos) that fixes the build targets. But then, getting a WinMo device to actually talk to Win10 is a chore. You have to change settings on the device itself to get it to connect via USB. Only then can you get the settings correct in Windows Mobile Device Center (which is unsupported, incompatible, and practically guaranteed to uninstall itself next week) so that VS2008 can deploy to and debug in the WinMo device directly.

SQL Server 2008 R2 is incompatible with Win10. Period. You have to explicitly ignore and dismiss/bypass about 3 or 4 warnings from Win10 in order to install the Business Intelligence Development Studio (a.k.a. SSRS tools) for VS2008, since that's part of the core SQL Server 2008 R2 installer. Again, this is needed to support legacy development projects that we're slowly sunsetting in favor of updated versions.

If you have Win7, none of these affect you. Win7 is compatible with these legacy systems. It's also compatible with the latest ooh-shiny from MS as well. Win8 has a few problems, specifically with the Mobile Device Center, that are the same as Win10.

But Win10 is a huge step backward in compatibility. To push it quietly onto a development machine is going to often result in a wipe-and-reinstall back to Win7, along with a lot of cursing and loss of confidence in selling Microsoft-stack technologies to future clients. It was bad enough that they stubbornly refused to update their tooling for Windows Mobile, which is widely used in ruggedized handheld devices (read: barcode scanners in warehouses and trucking depots). Now they're breaking compatibility with the old tools in their latest platform update. It's almost like they want to lose an entire market and piss off their most enduring cheerleaders in the process.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[waspleg]

Lots
of
downsides

At this point, why would you trust anything they say?

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Anonymous Coward]

I haven't even used the start menu since windows 7; in this community I'm surprised anyone complains about this, aren't we all supposed to be using launchers by now?

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Malizar]

Well, I "upgraded" my Windows 8.1 laptop to Windows 10, and it kept loosing track of the Cortana or Taskbar programs and needing to be booted in safe mode to be recovered. I have since done a true upgrade to Ubuntu on it, everything works great and runs much faster.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Anonymous Coward]

A sb710 disk controller with old firmware didn't work in ahci mode even though it worked perfectly fine in the 8.1 x64. For the upgrade to success I had revert back to IDE mode, which would have been unfortunate had I had an SSD drive. Try it, the process returns your previous OS version if it fails. But stand nearby to press the reset button in the case of the cold, black screen of death during the install process.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Anonymous Coward]

The ads in the operating system.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Anonymous Coward]

System requirements are the same as 7 and 8.1.

I'm not sure about the listed system requirements... but I know Windows 7 runs on my Pentium D CPU, and refuses to update to Windows 10, claiming that the CPU lacks certain requirements.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Win10 is complicated. You are also forced to have an internet account linked to it. It is very easy to really mess this up to the point you close yourself out of your system.
2. Frequent BSOD (system reboot with smiley face).
3. Some programs won't work with win 10, or have stability issues

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because it's your choice.

You should never allow anyone to take away your choice.

While you may always choose "yes", the decision to say "yes" should always be yours to make, and you should never allow anyone else to choose "yes" for you.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Insightfill]

I found my upgrade to break the existing VMWare Player 6.x.x Bridged Networking. It would just turn off the connection entirely as it couldn't find a valid NIC. NAT networking was unaffected.

A repair installation of Player fixed it, but shouldn't have been necessary. I'm not sure how other VMWare products are affected.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Anonymous Coward]

There may be custom and critical legacy software that are being supported that may break upon upgrade. One reason for that maybe that the infrastructure for continuous integration testing with Windows 10 may not yet be available to some DevOps, so automatically upgrading would be like a zero-day attack.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Anonymous Coward]

I was contemplating upgrading recently. And I don't see any reason NOT to. System requirements are the same as 7 and 8.1.

Any reason I should stop MS from upgrading me?

After several decades working in various IT-related jobs, I've become accustomed to NOT upgrading software just for the hell of it. The question you should be asking yourself is "What good reasons do I have FOR updating Windows?" and if you can't answer that plainly, then you probably shouldn't be doing it.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[tepples]

Ads in the Start menu

Right click and remove them.

Telemetry

That can be minimized. Product activation and Windows Update themselves are forms of telemetry.

possible hardware incompatibilities?

The NVIDIA nForce incompatibility that the GWX app detected is working to my advantage, as it's keeping the Windows 10 installer from even started.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[tepples]

Any reason I should stop MS from upgrading me?

Yes, because you need to schedule some time to take your computer to a place with unmetered Internet. Cellular and satellite ISPs tend to charge $5 to $15 per GB. Though you can undo a Windows 10 install, there's no way to undo the $15 or $45 obligation for a 3 GB download.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Ol Olsoc]

Oh and, I hope you don't having anything Microsoft deems as "unacceptable" such as "pirated" software. ;-)

Not to worry MS will just Uninstall your apps. I mean you did read the eula right?

No they won't. Microsoft is not doing the things they are doing.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[RogueyWon]

It depends. You will need/want to do a bit of fettling to shut down the phone-home telemetry. You should also be advised that installs to some older hardware might go spectacularly wrong. My parents tried installing to their 5 year old laptop and during the install process, the machine locked into what looked like an uninterruptible BSOD-restart loop. I had to travel 200 miles to their place and boot the thing from the Dell recovery partition to get things back to Win7. Later found out that the problem was caused by Win10 refusing to work with their graphics hardware - so the OS would BSOD when it tried to display the setup screen during install. There was no fix - Win10 will never be going on that machine.

But if you have more recent hardware, don't mind disabling the telemetry and don't have any software that has specific incompatibilities with Win10 (there isn't much of this, but there's still some), then it's a pretty good OS. The UI is very pleasant, with some good upgrades over Win7 and none of the horrors of Win10. A few of the new features, like the Xbox One streaming, are genuinely good (if that's your bag).

Plus if you're into gaming, the availability of DX12 will be a fairly big deal when we start seeing games that use it in anger early next year.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Anonymous Coward]

Any reason I should stop MS from upgrading me?

Because if you were the customer, MS would be charging you for the privilege of purchasing their product.

You are the product, and MS is trying to downgrade functional Win 7 machines (general-purpose computers that run software at the user's discretion and transmit telemetry only when the user misconfigures them) into telemetry-gathering nodes on something that is becoming increasingly-indistinguishable from what we used to call a botnet.

Microsoft will gladly sell you a copy of Windows 10.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[praxis]

Telemetry

That can be minimized.

Minimized is vague. Which parts can be turned off and which parts cannot? Also, why can they not be turned off?!

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[dunkelfalke]

Flat borders, ugly flat icons, tiles in the start menu.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[praxis]

Perhaps not doing, but they say they can do it and ask you to agree to it. That's pretty bad. I also wouldn't agree to a contract that says a company can do X but trust us we won't. That's why I don't buy games on Steam "We can delete your account for any reason whenever we like" are bad terms of sale, in my book.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[toejam13]

If you have older hardware, you might have difficulties getting the drivers to work.

One issue of note is the loss of the XDDM video driver subsystem that allowed video drivers from XP to be used on Vista and W7. Microsoft removed it from W8 and later OSes. So if a WDDM video driver was never released for your graphics chipset, you will be stuck with VESA SVGA video under W8 and W10.

There are still a number of Pentium 4M and Pentium M laptops in use where this is an issue. I have an older Thinkpad that I use when on vacation and that the kids use at home that has the i855GME chipset. I have a friend that still uses her Inspiron 5100 that has an AMD Radeon 7500M chip. Neither will ever see a Microsoft OS newer than W7.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[lgw]

I think it's quite ugly myself, mostly because I hate the UI for "app store apps", and a lot of stuff I used moved there, at least by default. Also, the new start menu blows goats (but I can fix that). Matter of taste, really, but having the UI change forced on me pisses me off, and Windows used to at least give you the option to live in the past, UI-wise.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Anonymous Coward]

Resize the menu by dragging the edge. No more empty space.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Anonymous Coward]

A EULA that says:

We will disclose the content of your files in private folders.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[armanox]

Actually, while not pirated, the Windows 10 installer will uninstall applications it deems "incompatible," such as the Cisco VPN client.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Anonymous Coward]

Product activation and Windows Update themselves are forms of telemetry.

And that's exactly the same thing as
We will disclose the content of your files in private folders.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[The-Ixian]

Better stop using your iPhone or Android device because, guaranteed you have some app that is phoning home telemetry.

Even if you don't have any apps, the OS is constantly in communication with the mothership looking for updates and sending information about you.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[The-Ixian]

You know that you send "telemetry" every time you visit a web page in the form of your IP address, user agent string and cookies, right?

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[UnknownSoldier]

/Oblg. Windows 1 vs Windows 8

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[sanosuke001]

Windows Media Center which is required to record encrypted cable TV from a CableCARD was removed from Windows 10. If they auto-update my HTPC, all my recordings are useless as they're only playable from the machine they were recorded on. Also, I can then never record any more since media player is not available.

Re: Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[nomel]

I did, and I think it's great. I turned off all the big privacy issues that should keep ms from obviously spying on me. I just assume the rest, that are difficult to disable, are for the NSA. People forget that the NSA used to get in (at a minimum) with exploits. I'd much rather have a proper backdoor so the exploits can be found and fixed.

Beyond ethical reasons, I just don't care about the NSA or MS getting a ping from my computer. If you think yours isn't vulnerable, then you probably spent man years securing it, don't do anything interesting, or are delusional.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you care at all about security you'd already be using 10.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[arkhan_jg]

Buggy drivers are still a problem - last I checked, elite:dangerous + amd + win 10 was still a broken mess that works fine on 7 or 8.1. There have been numerous problems with the saitek X55 windows 10 driver. A number of old printers also no longer work.

And of course, if you're using windows media centre, then installing windows 10 will murder it.

That's just the broken stuff I know about from personal/friends experience, off the cuff. I'm sure there are many more. You've also got to factor the privacy implications of all the stuff windows 10 sends back in exchange for your 'free' upgrade.

Windows 8.1 + startisback works fine, and I see no good reason to 'upgrade' any time soon.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[labnet]

I run a PC in our cinema room dedicated to Windows media centre. WMC gets deleted on the upgrade. This PC has been popping up nags for Windows 10 but with no warning on what software it will DELETE in the process. MS, you suck.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Knightsword]

I have had no issues with running SKSE or ENB on Windows 10. Though I did copy over my Skyrim folder from a Windows 7 install and I do use Nexus Mod Manager to lunch the game.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Knightsword]

The internet account is completely optional, you can skip that step during set up and it will create a local account as normal. If you did end up with a internet account and don't want it, you can always create a new local admin account and delete the internet one.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[cfalcon]

But how is this different from any other OS?

Look at the OSes that Microsoft Windows competes with- the Wii U dashboard and the PS4 dashboard. Granted, they don't spy as much, but they have very similar policies otherwise.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, they spy the hell out of you with their services. It's as bad as cellphone permissions now

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Holi]

On my Surface Pro 2 I constantly lose my wifi adapter since upgrading to Win10. Not a big fan of waking up my pc to no network access.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Anonymous Coward]

Any reason I should stop MS from upgrading me?

It depends on what you use your computer for. Windows 10 spy's on your private files, emails, and everything you do online. https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/servicesagreement/ If you are an artist, or do any kind of development work be sure and read section 2b twice. You can turn some of these privacy invaders off, but not all. http://yro.slashdot.org/story/15/08/14/1756220/windows-10-still-phones-home-with-data-in-spite-of-privacy-settings

Microsoft uses Windows 10 as an advertising platform to push ads and malware to your system. http://tech.slashdot.org/story/15/10/15/1422256/microsoft-now-uses-windows-10s-start-menu-to-display-ads

Windows 10 steals from you. All that excessive spying, pushing advertising and malware to your system costs bandwidth which you are paying for. Every file you open or modify Microsoft gets a copy of. "If you open a file, we may collect information about the file, the application used to open the file, and how long it takes any use [of] it for purposes such as improving performance, or [if you] enter text, we may collect typed characters and use them for purposes such as improving autocomplete and spell check features."

Windows 10 update cannot be turned off in home edition, during updates MS can remove non-Microsoft software from YOUR system. http://tech.slashdot.org/story/15/11/25/049259/windows-10-fall-update-uninstalls-desktop-software-without-informing-users

Windows 10 is known to have a lot of driver incompatibility issues, especially for older hardware. For example, if the manufacturer of a hardware peripheral is not currently paying Microsoft money, Microsoft can lock you out from using that peripheral, even if the old driver currently works (see section 7b of the service agreement above).

Most current games (like Fallout 4) will not run on Windows 10, and those that do require ridiculous amounts of RAM. http://games.slashdot.org/story/15/10/29/2112221/batman-demands-12gb-ram-for-windows-10

Windows 10 shares your WiFi password with everyone you know on social media or is in your contacts file. http://krebsonsecurity.com/2015/07/windows-10-shares-your-wi-fi-with-contacts/

Windows 10 makes it extremely difficult to use non-Microsoft software such as web browsers and email clients. http://tech.slashdot.org/story/15/07/31/149251/mozilla-ceo-windows-10-strips-user-choice-for-browsers-and-other-software

These are just a few I can remember off the top of my head, there is no valid reason to downgrade to Windows 10 unless all you use your computer for is to view web pages and watch Youtube videos. If you use email, play games, create content, or use older peripherals, I would give Windows 10 a pass.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Holi]

Don't forget it ignores the hosts file with regards to the telemetry.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Holi]

There is a big difference between a webserver keeping a log of IP addresses it communicates with and your OS sending reports of usage patterns, installed software, hardware back to the mothership.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[unixisc]

Just install ShutUp10, enable it and you're off to the races

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[unixisc]

They can. Use ShutUp10. I did, and disabled everything except DRM, since I do download music online

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[hairyfeet]

Afraid not, a traffic analysis of Windows 10 shows that not only is it sending data when you turn on your cam, or talk on your mike, but apparently they left the keylogger on from the beta so you might as well have somebody from MSFT standing behind you with a camera and notepad. Care to try again AC?

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[omnichad]

the machine locked into what looked like an uninterruptible BSOD-restart loop.

This only surprises me a little, but whenever I've seen a Windows 10 upgrade fail with more than a couple reboots it automatically reverted to Windows 7.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[unixisc]

But if somebody chooses to upgrade to 10, which is what the GP is asking, then he's already said yes. The controversy in this thread is about forcing 7 and 8 users to upgrade to 10

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Anonymous Coward]

Resize the right edge of the Start menu all the way to the left. No more tiles :)

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Tharkkun]

In my case the Windows 10 disrupts or blocks a number of useful hacks that are used in games (Skyrim as example) like SKSE and the ENB Series. I understand that is an analog behavior of a virus (SKSE injects code on the Skyrim working memory), but in Windows 7 you have the option to authorize it while Windows 10 does not work or works erratically. Also, in my honest opinion the Windows 10 GUI is a total piece of shit but that's personal preference

http://www.softwareok.com/?sei...

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[gweihir]

You cannot be serious. Have you been living under a rock? Or maybe you are just a paid MS shill...

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[dargaud]

When you say fugly, that's an understatement. I've never used Vista/7/8, but I switched to Linux instead. There's ONE software I need to use under Windows, so I run it in an XP virtual machine. But the last version does not work in XP, so I just installed Win10 pro in a VM. What a monstrosity.
First you need to spend an entire hour clicking various [Do not send my personal data to MS] in 10 layer-deep trees of disorganized (purposely hidden?) settings.
Then you have to get rid of all the tablet user interface (it's a PC, not a fucking toy).
Then you have to try to make sense of the usre interface and try to make it more (impossible) or less look like the old but simple and efficient Win95 explorer window. The simple menus (File, Edit, Help...) are gone, instead you have a 150 pixel high mix of icons, unaligned text, non-clickable symbols, etc...
The style itself is 'aesthetically pure' or some shit like that, meaning that some designer decided to get rid of the limits between graphical elements. Meaning you don't know anymore where you can click, what is a button or a mere decoration. Everything is offwhite and jumbled.
Then the language. I can only purchase Win10 in my country's language. As most people know, you can debug only in English (try searching for error messages in other languages...). But there's an option inside to change the language. Great. After clicking it and 10 minutes later nothing happened (100% CPU), I killed it a few times. Finally overnight it installed. There was no feedback as to what was going on. And the result is a mix of two languages in the various interfaces.
But wait, there's more. The aliasing on the fonts make your eyes bleed. There's an option to adjust it where you click on various choices, but they are ALL way worse than the default. WAY WORSE. XP had perfectly sharp fonts, why would I want fuzzy looking fonts with random dark groups of pixels inside them ?!?
What a festering pile of steaming excrements.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[quonsar]

You are also forced to have an internet account linked to it.

no, actually you're not. but with that said, Win10 sucks the big hairy one.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Anonymous Coward]

Doing to you are property? Please rephrase.

Fitting captcha: expelled

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[cfalcon]

> That can be minimized.

The inability to disable telemetry is a giant problem. Windows even sends telemetry about its telemetry settings. It's absolutely ludicrous.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[cfalcon]

> Better stop using your iPhone or Android device because, guaranteed you have some app that is phoning home telemetry.

1- My phone isn't my desktop, and they don't do the same things.
2- Phone suck at privacy, that's not a reason for a desktop to start sucking too. Just because one thing sucks doesn't mean more things have to suck. That's retarded.
3- You guarantee, eh? Well, lets talk about my iphone for a second. What's sending telemetry? Does my notes app? Does it send telemetry every time I launch an app? Like, which app is doing it? Is it the OS doing it? Is it at all reasonable to compare "ios and every possible ios application" to "a baseline Windows 10 install that alerts microsoft every time you run notepad"?

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[cfalcon]

This is an outright lie, and an attempt to normalize spying.

The fact that I'm on slashdot is being transmitted to slashdot. It's not being transmitted to, say, Microsoft. The fact that I run notepad shouldn't be transmitted to Microsoft either.

Remote connections are not telemetry- your post is factually incorrect.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[cfalcon]

> Buggy drivers are still a problem

There are, but this will get addressed eventually. A friend at work accidentally upgraded to Windows 10 (and he's a computer security professional, lol!), and his big side effect so far has been that Star Wars: Battlefront works well for him now.

Windows 10 should be avoided because of its massive privacy problems and lack of features- certain features that are intended but currently bugged will almost assuredly be worked out soon enough, but it will not stop the spying without a policy change at Microsoft, and it will not support removed features, such as the media center, without additional third party software that is expensive in most cases.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[cfalcon]

I actually think they are WORSE than cellphones, but even if they are only "just as bad", it's a horrible step backwards.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[praxis]

I meant "Also, why can they not be turned off without installing a third-party utility?" It should be an easy-to-find user setting.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[The-Ixian]

Telemetry is simply a measurement of some kind that is sent back to a service that collects that information.

Telemetry could be as simple as your device gathering any errors your system has encountered and sending that back to Microsoft to be analyzed for better compatibility in future updates or perhaps the number of updates you have installed versus what the server has available for you to download.

Telemetry does not automatically mean that personal or identifying information about you or your device is being transmitted.

So, yes, I guarantee that apps on your phone are sending telemetry all the time. The most obvious one is geo-location telemetry as measured by your GPS or by doing a geo-ip lookup.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[The-Ixian]

Telemetry is any measurement sent to a remote host.

My examples were flawed, you are right. I apologize.

An IP address is not telemetry per se, but a cookie containing geo-location is.

Telemetry can also be tracking information, which nearly every web page you visit is sending, not to the 1st party site owner, but to services like Google.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it really a good idea to run it on a Pentium II Celeron @466 MHz, though?

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[cfalcon]

> Telemetry is simply a measurement of some kind that is sent back to a service that collects that information.

Given that its usage in computers is EXTREMELY recent, telemetry means anything that they want.

So, a measurement of some kind that is sent back to a service that collects information?

I don't want that. You also give an example as "it could be as simple as". Well, I don't want that either. I don't want system errors (which leak information about what programs I use, and can leak RAM dumps too) transmitted remotely. It's a huge leak for some remote spybot to know when I'm likely to run programs, how much memory they are using, how long they run for, what paths they save to, etc. All the things you'd care about for debugging a problem are things you don't want to transmit on your actual personal box! Microsoft sniffing my RAM, keyboard, and mic, ostensibly to help themselves make a less shitty OS in the future, is absolutely not in my interest- and I'd be surprised if its in *anyone's* interest. Telemetry COULD send PII upstream- Microsoft certainly makes you agree to that in their EULA, because PII could easily be in any of the vast array of contacts, phone calls, emails, file system names, applications run, etc.

Lets get back to your point- you are playing that same equivalence game I see a whole lot of. You said "I guarantee that apps on your phone are sending telemetry all the time". I told you I had an iphone, and asked you what is being sent upstream? Your example is geo-loc being transmitted when using GPS, or in a browser.

This is not telemetry.

If I choose to use a map service- and remember, I could be using apple maps, or google maps, or another third party- then of course, it does need access to my location. But in these cases, it doesn't send a bunch of data to some third party- and its not sending measurements about how I'm using the product, it's requesting maps and such *as needed to accomplish the task at hand*. That's not telemetry- that's just it doing its job. If I run notepad, it transmits that fact to Microsoft. If I run a web browser and go to Microsoft.com, that's not telemetry- that's me asking microsoft.com for data.

Geo IP lookup is gated by an OS access screen in ios (and maybe Android, but I'm not sure). Geo-loc is also gated in general, so that a map app has to ask for that. It also doesn't transmit when not in use, and it doesn't talk to third parties.

So, nope, no telemetry demonstrated yet.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Anonymous Coward]

Except, with MS, I really am the customer, or at least I should be. I paid them $120 for an operating system, and then they go about turning it into malware after the fact.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[TheDarkMaster]

And the performance? Boris (the creator of ENB) warned more than once that the Windows 10 hinders certain tricks that he uses to make Skyrim perform better.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[allo]

Its a privacy nightmare. Microsoft reserves every right to do with your data whatever they want and even to delete files / programs on your computer.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[allo]

1) Its different to prior versions. win7 is much better
2) Because others do not do better, it does not make right what win10 does.
3) There is competition, which does better.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[allo]

No chance. They use hardcoded ip addresses as part of their strategy to avoid being blocked.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[allo]

Sorry, but this disables a lot, but there is a lot left over, which is not so easy to disable.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[tepples]

Windows even sends telemetry about its telemetry settings.

I can't see how it could avoid that, as the server could guess the telemetry settings from the list of things that each client could send but does not.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[TechnoJoe]

Any reason I should stop MS from upgrading me?

Old software. I have old games that work fine on 64-bit Windows 7, but they will not work on Windows 10.

The MS upgrade tool tests the hardware, but I don't know that it checks any software.

Re: Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[cfalcon]

Well, not every machine is assumed to be a client. There is no list, after all. Or there shouldn't be. Think of it this way: the ideal Windows box sends the same telemetry to Microsoft, as the default Debian install does. That is how mucb telemetry Microsoft needs.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[cfalcon]

Sorry man, I was making a sarcastic joke. Windows 7 and frankly all other OSes don't do this. My joke is in two parts: First I'm making fun of the people who point to some privacy problem (usually with the default configuration of Android) and then pretend that what Microsoft is doing is ok. Second, I'm making fun of the people who can't switch to a real OS because of games, by pretending that Microsoft Windows has, as its main competitors, Sony's PS4 and Nintendo's Wii-U- the gag being that I don't even bother comparing to functional OSes, because Windows is so far gone, but has people who won't switch because of games.

Apologies for the confusion, if the joke was funnier it would have been modded as such and would have been obvious :P

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck off Microsoft shill!!!!!

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck off Microsoft shill!!

And also, fuck you in the fucking arse you cunt. The undertones in your post are barbaric at best, and you should be fucking staked up and killed. What a cunt!!!

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[beastofburdon]

I just checked it out and it does not appear to be sufficient. It can only turn off the things you can turn off yourself in the interface. The nasty shit is the stuff you cannot turn off in the interface.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[unixisc]

What are the things it doesn't/can't turn off?

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[yuhong]

I think that can be turned off.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[yuhong]

And it is not a keylogger either. Rather it sends "typing data" to MS. There is an option to turn it off.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10?

[beastofburdon]

Telemetry, keylogger, the thing that monitors for cracked programs, and who knows what else.

Sticking With Windows 7

[ScottyKUtah]

Windows 7 is working perfectly fine on the computer I use to play Civilization, and the computers the kids use for school work. I have ZERO interest in Windows 10. What part of "Fuck off and die" does Microsoft not understand?

Glad my Linux machine doesn't try to automatically upgrade me to the next distro version.

Re:Sticking With Windows 7

[Grishnakh]

What part of "Fuck off and die" does Microsoft not understand?

What part of "we control the source code and can make it do whatever we want" do you not understand? Unless you've disconnected your Windows PC from the internet altogether, or taken some radical steps in altering the OS, it can do whatever it wants, including updating to a new version that includes spyware. The only easy way to avoid that is to simply stop using this OS or any other software from this vendor.

Glad my Linux machine doesn't try to automatically upgrade me to the next distro version.

Right, that's because those vendors actually respect their users. If most users weren't such morons, they would only use products from vendors who respect them and treat them fairly. But instead, they keep running back to the vendor that abuses them. Sorry, but I just don't have any sympathy for people who willingly accept abuse.

Re:Sticking With Windows 7

[Anonymous Coward]

"Right, that's because those vendors actually respect their users. If most users weren't such morons, they would only use products from vendors who respect them and treat them fairly. But instead, they keep running back to the vendor that abuses them. Sorry, but I just don't have any sympathy for people who willingly accept abuse."

Windows, Mac, Linux, *BSD, NOBODY respects their users. Particularly Linux. They just haven't done anything you strongly disagree with yet.

Re:Sticking With Windows 7

[LichtSpektren]

Which *BSD or Linux forces OS and driver updates without giving the user the ability to stop it? Which *BSD or Linux monetizes the users' personal information by sending it to 100+ domains? Which *BSD or Linux ships with ads integrated into the GUI?

Re:Sticking With Windows 7

[prunus.avium]

Which *BSD or Linux ships with ads integrated into the GUI?
Reply to This

Ubuntu.

Re:Sticking With Windows 7

[shentino]

Many times the people making decisions are not the ones directly affected by them.

Re:Sticking With Windows 7

[Anonymous Coward]

Which *BSD or Linux forces OS and driver updates without giving the user the ability to stop it? Which *BSD or Linux monetizes the users' personal information by sending it to 100+ domains? Which *BSD or Linux ships with ads integrated into the GUI?

None. They disrespect users in other ways.

Re:Sticking With Windows 7

[Anonymous Coward]

Can you honestly say that systemd will never have forced telemetry? Let me put it this way, what wouldn't LP add to systemd?

Re:Sticking With Windows 7

[Grishnakh]

And when they do, users change distros to ones that align better with their beliefs and opinions.

Re:Sticking With Windows 7

[Anonymous Coward]

"we control the source code and can make it do whatever we want"

This is battle cry of some open source developers too. Firefox, gnome and systemd for example.

Re:Sticking With Windows 7

[Grishnakh]

Wrong. If you're an IT employee, you're being paid to put up with whatever computing products your employer chooses to purchase. If you don't like it, go find another job. How your employer spends their money is no business of yours, as long as they continue to pay you the pay rate you both agreed to when you accepted the job.

Re:Sticking With Windows 7

[Grishnakh]

If you don't like those things, you have choices. You can modify the source code to fit your needs and desires, or you can switch to an alternative. No one is forcing you to use Gnome; there's literally at least 6 mainstream alternatives available for it. No one's forcing you to use Firefox; lots of people use Chrome or Chromium. No one's forcing you to use systemd; several distros don't, or you can make your own distro if you have such a problem with it.

You have a choice with Windows too. If you don't like it, don't use it, and switch to an alternative. You won't get your money back, but that's what you get for making a stupid purchasing decision. But no one's forcing you to continue using it.

Re:Sticking With Windows 7

[Anonymous Coward]

The answer to the first question is arguably any Linux that runs systemd. Though, it's not so much about the user having the ability to stop it. It's about the user soon being able to stop it and still be able to receive critical updates.

Even though there is still the choice of running or not running systemd on your desktop, more and more projects are saying that they will be favoring systemd more and more. I am perhaps one of the few out there that has fallen in love with the Plasma interface of KDE. I know there are lighter weight options, but KDE just found a core place on my desktop systems. Soon, if I want to receive updates to KDE, I will have to bite the systemd bullet on my desktop systems.

If I want the most current apt or yum based system, I must suffer systemd. The only way to avoid it is to build the packages myself...which can take days for maintaining a usable desktop system, even through Portage snapshots (I both loved and hated Gentoo for this).

Currently, my servers run on CentOS 6.7 to make use of the latest version that supports my custom init scripts. My desktops I don't care as much as speed will always trump stability and legacy support on a desktop. That said, even desktop Linux running systemd is leagues better on stability than any Microsoft System.

Re:Sticking With Windows 7

[stooo]

>> Particularly Linux. They just haven't done anything you strongly disagree with yet.

Not so.
One of the most important rule in the kernel development is to never ever break user programs. Intentionally or not. It's a NoGo.

Re:Sticking With Windows 7

[Anonymous Coward]

Your shitty attitude is exactly the reason that Win still has more market share then Linux, you idiot, STF up!

GWX-control panel removes the win10 nagging/files

[Anonymous Coward]

http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/ - the gwx control panel, will remove the notifications and even the files that microsoft forces you to download and then hides from you. This GWX-thing is fantastic!

I would install, but...

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

So is Microsoft watching everything I type, listening in on everything, and recording every web site even if on Chrome or Chrome incognito?

Re:I would install, but...

[LichtSpektren]

You can block the spying if you put 100+ of the domains that Windows phones to (see here for a full list: https://github.com/WindowsLies...) on your router's firewall. If you don't, there's an integrated key logger, but I'm not sure if Microsoft co-opts the microphone to listen to everything.

Re:I would install, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but what luck! Microsoft pushed "Telemetry" updates to windows 8 and windows 7 so they're collecting that even if you DONT upgrade to windows 10, so you might as well get it over with.

Re:I would install, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

The difference is, with Windows 7/8/8.1 is the telemetry can be completely purged from the computer. Not so with Windows 10, not even Win 10 Enterprise where it can only be turned off.

Re:I would install, but...

[unixisc]

Why is turning off different from purging, other than occupying a bit of your disk space? Granted, it's critical if you have a Winbook w/ a mere 16GB of FLASH disk (not RAM), but other than that, if a third party software like ShutUp10 turns it off, do you think Microsoft can remotely turn it own again?

Re:I would install, but...

[cfalcon]

> You can block the spying if you put 100+ of the domains that Windows phones to....

I think this is an experiment to see how many hoops Windows users will jump through. A third party firewall to block over a hundred domains? What about when it requests by IP address directly? Everyone is like "run this giant script that we hopefully will maintain". It's nuts.

Re:I would install, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

You can block the spying if you put 100+ of the domains that Windows phones to (see here for a full list: https://github.com/WindowsLies...) on your router's firewall. If you don't, there's an integrated key logger, but I'm not sure if Microsoft co-opts the microphone to listen to everything.

Sounds like whack-a-mole. New IPs/domains will pop up.

Re:I would install, but...

[gweihir]

FUD. These do not install automatically for most users. Also, for example in Germany, listening to user actions without explicit and informed consent (and that means written from, a click will not do it) is punishable by up to 2 years imprisonment.

Re:I would install, but...

[cfalcon]

Unimportant difference and irrelevant point.

You can disable the spying in Windows 7 / 8. You cannot in Windows 10.

Disable the Update by hand.

[ArcadeNut]

Add this to your registry and the Windows 10 update will go away...

Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\Gwx]
"DisableGwx"=dword:00000001

Re:Disable the Update by hand.

[Anonymous Coward]

That only disables the Get Windows Experience (GWX) nag-ware. It doesn't stop Windows Update from foisting the Win10 upgrade on you despite your wishes.

Re:Disable the Update by hand.

[Mr_Trebuchet]

No need to go as far as editing the registry. You can just uninstall Windows Update KB3035583. Just remember to "hide" it when it prompts you to update to it again.

Re:Disable the Update by hand.

[Anonymous Coward]

Using the DisableGwx registry key does not work anymore.
It worked when Win10 first came out, but something smacked that down over a month ago.

FYI: I have WIndows Update disabled and the service is stopped and we still go upgraded to Win10 without doing anything other than powering on the PC.

Re:Disable the Update by hand.

[Anonymous Coward]

yes, but does it concern anyone other than me that you have to ask to not be punched in the face? This is why we have telemarketers. Because someone way back when thought it was ok to create a profit motive for any company to call people at home just because they have a phone. Now we have the do not call list that some companies respect more than others. The whole problem shouldn't even exist. I pay for a phone to be able to talk to friends and family. Not to be a marketing target. Similarly I pay for a computer, and the operating system on it to meet my needs not the needs of some corporation. It's about time that we as a community sent a clear and unambiguous message that we don't need them. They only exist because of us, and if they become sufficiently obnoxious we'll create our own solution that doesn't involve them.

For people on a metered connection this could be very expensive just to download the update. It should not be by default, and Microsoft should be the one footing the bill when the user exceeds their data usage because of it. In my mind this is very obnoxious.

Re:Disable the Update by hand.

[Anonymous Coward]

Doesn't help, the next time it checks for updates those "hidden" updates are shown and installed gain.

Re:Disable the Update by hand.

[Anonymous Coward]

If you read the article the problem is that this registry key is being changed back on a daily basis.

Re:Disable the Update by hand.

[UnderCoverPenguin]

FYI: I have WIndows Update disabled and the service is stopped and we still go upgraded to Win10 without doing anything other than powering on the PC.

Which edition of Windows? I have Win7 Pro. Still not "updated" to Win10. (Though is an old PC that Dell claims is not supported by Win10. Don't know what won't work if it did get changed to Win7.)

Win7 support ended in Jan. I don't that it is no longer supported. I still need it for a few applications that don't run correctly under Win8 or Win10. If my PC gets infected, I will just wipe it and re-install everything. The data for those applications is stored in CSV and HEX files, and I have data validation utilities that run under Linux, so I can detect corruption and revert to a back up if/when needed.

I am working on getting Linux compatible alternatives in place for the "real" applications, though I might end up not being able to play the one game I play if I can't get it running on WINE.

Re:Disable the Update by hand.

[Anonymous Coward]

We did this and it worked for a while, but then a month or two ago MS pushed the Win 10 update through Windows Update, ignoring the DisableGwx entry. They reverted this change for now, but will probably re-enable it in early 2016.

We added the following to the registry, in addition to the DisableGwx entry, and it seems to suppress the upgrade nags although I don't know if it actually prevents the downloads.

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\WindowsUpdate]
"DisableOSUpgrade"=dword:00000001

I don't know if this will continue to work next year when MS make the Win 10 upgrade 'recommended'. As far as I can tell the only way MS documents to avoid a forced upgrade is to provide our own WSUS. It would be nice if they would document a method that will keep working until the end of Win7's support life.

why isn't that illegal

[Revek]

They are hocking their latest fair onto machines that are better off with the older operating system. Windows 10 doesn't offer any more functionality than windows 7 or 8.1. I don't need some crappy talking clippy to search for things for me. I don't need it, period.

Re:why isn't that illegal

[Anonymous Coward]

It's "legal" because you agreed to the Windows EULA by using Windows and it basically says they can do whatever they want to your computer.

Re:why isn't that illegal

[Anonymous Coward]

I am a big fan of Windows 10, but I still think this is a jerk move. Who do they think they are? Apple or something?

Re:why isn't that illegal

[LichtSpektren]

I am a big fan of Windows 10, but I still think this is a jerk move. Who do they think they are? Apple or something?

So why are you a "big fan" of Windows 10? Will you still be, when an unstoppable update bricks your computer?

Re:why isn't that illegal

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple doesn't force updates on you. Neither iPhones or Macs update automatically. Where Apple sucks is that it only allows updating to the current version, they don't allow you to pick which version to update to.

Re:why isn't that illegal

[Anonymous Coward]

They're the counter-party of most EULAs you've signed over to other people.

Re:why isn't that illegal

[Virtucon]

It's legal because of the ToS you accepted when you installed the operating system and accepted automatic updates from Microsoft. Therefore you did it to yourself.

My suggestion is to dump automatic updates and go to something like Autopatcher which avoids accepting things blindly on your behalf.

Re:why isn't that illegal

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple's never forced updates on me. Your bullshit is utterly false but thanks for showing your true colors.

Re:why isn't that illegal

[LichtSpektren]

Most people didn't install the OS. It came preinstalled on their computer. They never agreed to any EULA when they bought the machine.

Re:why isn't that illegal

[Aristos Mazer]

Disconnect from your networks, wireless and wired. Even MS can't update a stand-alone computer. What do you mean, "not a viable option"?! :-)

Re:why isn't that illegal

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit. That's in the Win10 EULA, not the Win7 EULA.

If a user has manually installed Win10 and accepted *that* EULA, then the spying is legal.

But Win7 users didn't agree to that back when they initially installed Win7, so *forcing* the Win10 version, complete with its privacy-invading EULA, onto Win7 users, is illegal.

Re:why isn't that illegal

[Virtucon]

Yes, yes they did. Windows has always had a little splash screen that included weasel language allowing them to do this. If you don't like Windows Update, you can turn it off and not get Windows 10 pushed to you. The problem is now, how do you easily get security updates? That's what tools like Autopatcher are great and providing, especially if you're supporting a lot of machines without a Volume License (Corporate) Agreement.

Re:why isn't that illegal

[Anonymous Coward]

No, no they didn't. If it's pre-installed you do not get to see the EULA. And they change it later. And it's not actually needed either: you don't need a license to use the software, even the copy itself is fine because you must copy to use, and the sale of the software to use requires implicitly that you get to copy it. If they did not want to make this possible, they should not have called it a license agreement. At least a contract, despite being void because of its lack of agreement, would have been what would legally stick.

Re:why isn't that illegal

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't that stretching the definition of "update", though? That'd be like a car manufacturer replacing your car with a different one during your sleep, claiming that it has the right to do so because it falls under "free repairs" as mentioned in the warranty.

Re:why isn't that illegal

[Anonymous Coward]

The EULA is more a warning than a contract. Think of it as "may contain nuts".

Re:why isn't that illegal

[omnichad]

Apple doesn't force updates on you.

No, but they nag horribly. It pops up every day offering to update and you can only push it off by one day. At least Microsoft only does it for the Windows 10 update.

Re:why isn't that illegal

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple forces the new OS via 3rd party apps; the app vendors are forced to add support to latest OS version, and since Apple also removes API's from newer OS, the vendors need to create a new build for newer and older OS versions. And since only a few vendors have the resources to maintain more than two variants of their software, users are soon forced to give up from the apps they bought, update OS or buy a new shiny device.

Re:why isn't that illegal

[gweihir]

Pure bullshit in the civilized world (but likely true in the US). They cannot do "whatever they like" and they must continue to offer the service they have been paid for.

Re:why isn't that illegal

[spyfrog]

That splash screen isn't legally binding in my country. So no, you are wrong.

Re:why isn't that illegal

[cfalcon]

Wait, hold on. Is this a comparison between Windows and OS X, or a comparison between Windows and ios?

Re:why isn't that illegal

[allo]

It is. Easy reasoning: You have no right at all to use the system. The license grants you the right under certain conditions. If you do not agree to the license, it is illegal for you to use the software. So your click on "accept" either accepts it, or you can be sued for using the software without accepting.

Re:why isn't that illegal

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no such thing as accepting blindly.

IANAL, but AFAIK there's a lot of previous rulings: If there wasn't at least a minimal effort to get a conscious decision from the user, and at the very least a minimal effort to show the new license to the user, the user hasn't agreed to it.

Automatic "accept all licenses" are just legal paperweights.

Re:why isn't that illegal

[currently_awake]

What if I buy the computer used? Then I never agreed to anything, and the First Sale Doctrine applies.

MS innovation!

[GameboyRMH]

"Accidentally installing the OS." Now there's a computer problem that nobody would've predicted!

10 is NOT an upgrade

[Anonymous Coward]

A downgrade is NOT an upgrade. Windows 10 + telemetry
is a huge insult to any natural born or naturalized American.

I've had auto upgrades turned off since this stupid BS began.

If you know anything about Bill's personal (public) history,
you'll see how ill he really is to do something like this...

CAP === 'complied'

But you consented!

[Lead Butthead]

... when you click-through the sixteen page license agreement presented to you in 3 pt font in dark grey text on light grey background, some three years ago when you installed Win7. Right there on page fourteen, paragraph 4, sub paragraph 2, it said you agreed that the licensee (that's you) permits unscheduled, unannounced, update to the computer by the vendor, at vendor's sole discretion, with no recourse.

Re:But you consented!

[Anonymous Coward]

Just because a EULA says something doesn't mean that it is legally enforceable.

Re:But you consented!

[Lennie]

Just because it's called EULA means you don't own the software.

EULA means: you have a license to use it.

Again: It's not your software, companies like Microsoft, Oracle and Apple owns their software.

If you don't want that the only solutions are: Linux, BSD, etc.

Re:But you consented!

[Tharkkun]

Just because a EULA says something doesn't mean that it is legally enforceable.

EULA's have been enforced in courts many times. It's a fairy tale to believe it's not enforceable.

Re:But you consented!

[Anonymous Coward]

EULA's have been enforced in courts many times. It's a fairy tale to believe it's not enforceable.

Unconscionable agreements have been tossed by courts many times. It's a fairy tale to believe everything is enforceable.

Re:But you consented!

[jrumney]

The funny thing is, I didn't click through that agreement, the salesperson in the shop did, then insisted that I give them my hotmail address or let them create one for me before I could take the PC out of the shop. They eventually gave in and let me finish the rest of the initial setup at home after I threatened to call the credit card company and reverse the transaction they'd just put through on the grounds that they weren't handing over the product I'd just purchased.

Re:But you consented!

[Anonymous Coward]

It does mean that you can't complain given the fact that you chose this license. If you don't like it, you're supposed to remove Windows from your computer.

Re:But you consented!

[Anonymous Coward]

Especially in adhesion situations like this. If they are installing the software without consent, then you can't possibly have consented to the EULA, unless they argue that you consented by continuing to use the software. However, it may not occur to people that they can delete Windows 10 and had a choice. There are many other interpretations that would equally doom them. That is why it is a bad idea for a business to install software automatically, especially without explicitly notifying a user that new terms apply.

Push It! Push It Real Good!

[Anonymous Coward]

Cuz that's the way, uh-huh, uh-huh, I like it!

I tried it. I will survive!

If it didn't spy like Flint I'd use it. Until it doesn't I can't. Simple. As. That.

Is this actually legal? Piece meal removal of 7?

[Anonymous Coward]

I know nothing of the law, but altering an operating system thru small steps to eventually get everyone to accept what you have done to them seems beyond shady. If I had the engine replaced on my car with a different model piece by piece whenever I went to the garage, it would never be consider legal. Especially if magically after the first minor update, my car just happened to need to go to the garage every 2nd Tuesday of the month for more "repairs".

Also,
Does Microsoft really think their claim to high adoption rates of win 10 will mean anything to anyone but themselves when everyone knows they had no choice but to either accept what Microsoft is doing or be harassed till they do accept it?

As a Tech Coordinator for a school district, I will be considering a major change out of Microsoft products. I have students every day saying they want macs and even a few who are big fans of linux.

To those saying it can't be installed accidentally

[LichtSpektren]

My coworker left automatic updates on her computer (Windows 7 Professional). She left for the weekend Friday. Came back Monday and Windows 10 was installed.

I have also read some comments on Ars Technica's article that some users could not find any way to interrupt the installation, only hard reboot, or wait for the full installation to finish and then regress back to 7.

Re:Oh, ffs Microsoft

[codeButcher]

And also, my bandwidth not yours. Which is not uncapped or particularly cheap where I am at.

Linux time!

[kheldan]

I have an old Dell Pentium 4 laptop that's currently running Windows XP that I don't have anything important on; suggestions for a decent distro to put on it? Should also be good for a multi-core desktop, later on I need to build a replacement for the 10+ year old AMD Athlon 64-based desktop I have that's also still running XP.

Re:Linux time!

[LichtSpektren]

Ubuntu MATE

Re:Linux time!

[kheldan]

OK, not the first time I've heard that.. and the lovely part of this is I can try as many distros I want, the laptop in question is rarely used for anything.

Know much about WINE? There is one piece of Windows-only software that is absolutely necessary for me: http://powertap.com/product/po... Think it'll run OK? I believe it's written in Java (yah yah I know, but there really isn't any other software I can use in this case).

Re:Linux time!

[LichtSpektren]

Just put your preferred distro on a live USB and test it. Alternatively, put your Windows 7 partition in a virtual machine, disconnect it from the Internet, and use it solely for your necessary software and Linux for everything else.

Re:Linux time!

[kheldan]

I don't have Windows 7. I might have got a copy of Windows 7 before all this Windows 10 crap hit the fan, but if this is the way Microsoft is going to do business, then I'm done with them for good.

I don't want to have to try to get XP to run in a virtual machine. Why can't I use WINE? I thought that's what it was for.

Re:Linux time!

[LichtSpektren]

WINE's pretty good. Again, try it and see what happens. If it works fine, no problems. If it doesn't work for whatever reason, you still have alternatives.

Re:Linux time!

[kheldan]

try it and see what happens

That's the idea; as I said, I have an entire laptop that I can completely blow away and install whatever I want to on it, and not lose anything at all. The plan is to get used to using it on that (including learning my way around the nuts and bolts of the OS, like I do with MS products) before ever running it on any desktop box.

Thanks for the suggestions. :-)

Re:Linux time!

[chipschap]

Running XP in a virtual machine isn't hard at all. It's worth your time and effort.

Re:Linux time!

[Anonymous Coward]

Slackware. Warning: it has a learning curve.

Re:Linux time!

[sydsavage]

You may want to take a look at Elementary OS. It's ubuntu 14.04 based, and has a very nice looking interface. You can try it out before installing from cd or thumbdrive. It's pretty lightweight, so runs well on older hardware. They've admittedly taken some design cues from Apple, but it's not what I'd call an OS X clone.

Also note there's a good chance that the current versions of Chrome may not work on your Pentium 4 if it lacks the LAHF instruction set. Chromium from the ubuntu repos is still working for now.

Re:Linux time!

[williamyf]

Whatever you end up doing with that machine, do not forget to upgrade each and every firmware for which updates are available (Mandatory; BIOS/UEFI, graphics card, storage), Max Out the RAM (mandatory), put a SDD and maybe a better graphics card (if budget allows). After the BIOS updates, enable Hyperthreading on the P4. Since the machines are so old, go for 32Bit OSs (as this will improve your chances to get drivers)

If you can put 2GB RAM (or more) on both machines (and perhaps a small SSD), the best upgrade path is Windows 10, or Windows 8.1 + ClassicShell (depending of course on Processor Instruction Support and Graphics card support).

But Your Question was Specific to Liux, so, if you want a desktop, and the machines have reasonable good Specs, go for Ubuntu straight ahead. Is better to learn a standard distro, as both the general and specific knowledge that you gain will be transferable/useable in a work environment.

If your machine has somewhat weaklish specs, go for CrunchBang!++ . At least you get a functional distro...

If you want the opportunity to learn your way around a server (in particular with the desktop), go for CentOS 6.3 (the last supported version with 32 bits support).

Best of luck.

Re:Linux time!

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're happy with the way your Windows is set up, instead of installing form scratch in a VM, you can use VMWare's vCenter Converter to virtualise it. Install your preferred Linux distro, install VirtualBox and point it to the vCenter-created virtual hard drive and Bob's your uncle.

Installing from scratch would be cleaner, but if you're happy with what you've got this can save you the hours you would otherwise waste installing, updating, updating, updating, updating, etc.

Re:Linux time!

[kheldan]

Uh, I think you skimmed my original post; I'm DONE with Microsoft products, I don't want any more of them and their nonsense, treating my computer like they own it and not me, and spying on everything I do, forcing updates down my throat, etc. Additionally I'm not spending a dime on an old P4 laptop, it'll work fine the way it is or it won't work at all, but I think it'll be fine; no 'upgrading' anything, it has 2GB of RAM, if some average distro of Linux won't run in that then there's something seriously wrong with Linux. This 'Ubuntu' looks as good as anything else as a starting point. Also, it's a laptop, there are no 'upgrades' for anything anyway, it is what it is.

Re:Linux time!

[unixisc]

Does it have 64-bit? If yes, put in PC-BSD

Re:Linux time!

[hairyfeet]

If you are wanting to run Windows 7 from a VM? Get a copy of "Windows 7 Tiny", it runs all the software Windows 7 runs while taking less than a GB installed and uses less than 150Mb running the desktop, great for a VM. Its also great for those that need Windows but have older or weaker hardware, just for shits and giggles I tried it on a Sempron 1.8Ghz from 2003 and it ran faster than Puppy Linux, felt like it was on an SSD instead of an 80GB HDD it ran so fast.

Re:Linux time!

[Anonymous Coward]

Out of curiosity, I installed it under wine and it worked fine. The only problem I see is with communicating with the devices - I noticed the hardware uses ftdi which means the communication is most probably over the emulated serial port so it should theoretically work, but unfortunately the software is probably using usb enumeration to discover the devices. This can be tricky under wine, but I think it may work after some work spent on configuring it.

Re:Linux time!

[Anonymous Coward]

There's plenty of support for your old Pentium 4 and plenty of life left in it for what you need it for.

While Distros can install the issue will be lesser support Dell would have designed the laptop for XP, the same for their desktops. Your programs and settings will work best on windows and nothing else because Dell wrote programs specifically for Windows.
I would first make it easier, you probably don't want the laptop for much. so? you could start by pumping back life by running system restore, and see if that helps or the last option reinstalling XP, if so.
install windows:
1)backup
2)get rid of everything
3)install xp service pack 3,
4)create a system restore point, so you don't have to do another re install.
5)control panel, user accounts, administrator account, create password.
6)install all drivers from Dell
7)install all windows updates

setup:
8)start control panel,
user accounts,
create a account with limited access , create a password.
9)start, all programs, accessories, system tools, disc cleanup,
10)start, all programs, accessories, system tools, disc defragmenter.
11)start, all programs, accessories, system tools, system restore, you'll want to have these so you can always see them.
additional:
use a different browser e.g
install Antivirus (if you need it)
(if you use Office) keep using the version you have, or if you want to,
install a newer version that works on XP the latest is 2010. or you can use the free 2013 version called office online that needs internet connection but works on XP.
or switch to Libre Office/open office.

Re:Linux time!

[messymerry]

Mint is good. If you want a lighter distro, try LXLE...

Re:Linux time!

[allo]

I would not recommend distributions, where it's unclear how long they will be supported. elementary is a rather new small project, they may be gone next year. Debian will be there forever, Ubuntu seems to be here to stay as well.

Re:Linux time!

[kheldan]

Tried insalling Ubuntu on it last night. After figuring out the FORCEPAE problem (it's actually a Pentium M, Dell Latitude D600) it looked like it would install -- but a minute or two after starting the install, the whole thing just locks up. :-/

Re:Linux time!

[Anonymous Coward]

Get a copy of "Windows 7 Tiny"

Does it activate against a corporate KMS server, or do you have to use a loader on it? I hate seeing old Dell D600-series machines just lying around...

Why?

[johannesg]

It's a simple enough question, and one for which I haven't yet seen any answer. Why? What is it in Windows 10 that makes it so desirable for _Microsoft_ to _give away_?

Remember, if you are not paying for a service, it is because you are the _product_.

Re:Why?

[LichtSpektren]

They're making money from the 100+ domains that they use your computer to phone home to. Plus the integrated ads in the start menu, and the app store (which they swindle some tech unsavvy people to buy DVD codecs and Solitaire from, unfortunately).

Re:Why?

[Akili]

I actually have an idea about this. This is purely opinion, but I think it's all about Microsoft's App store.

Apple is making buckets of money from their App store. Microsoft sees this, concludes it is unacceptable, and wants to get that money for itself, or at least as much of it as possible.

Now, Windows 8 and 8.1 had the App store, but 8 - while perhaps not a marketing disaster like Vista - still doesn't sit well with people. Windows 7 is well-liked, but there's no App store. Therefore: Upgrade everyone to Windows 10 for free, and wait for money to start rolling in via app purchases, in-menu advertisements, and other benefits. Maybe they can even sell telemetry data to marketing firms, depending on how much they wash it and how close they want to toe a legal line about turning over such information to third parties.

I've yet to hear any better explanation.

Re:Why?

[CastrTroy]

My guess is they don't want to have to support Windows 7 and 8 any longer than they have to. Windows XP was supported until 2014, 7 years after it's predecessor was released. If they can a high enough percentage of people to migrate away from Windows 7/8, then they can stop supporting them faster. If 95% of people are no longer using the old OS, then it's much easier to say they are cutting off support for the old versions. If they make upgrades free going forward, they can support just the newest version, and still get licensing fees from new computers which are sold. They won't be able to make money from people paying for upgrades, but very few people paid for upgrades on old computers anyway.

Re:Why?

[gstoddart]

The same thing everybody makes money from these days: ads, analytics, access to your data, and the attempt to further lock you into their platform.

Microsoft have decided that your computer is now their computer, and that they will decide what happens to it.

Windows 10 is the point at which Microsoft decides to openly state they don't give a crap what their "customers" want.

Welcome to the future, where corporate interests means they have more control over the products you buy than you do.

I figure Microsoft is going to create Linux and Mac users as everyone gets pissed off and leaves.

Re:Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not that I agree with this shit, but there are simple rather innocuous reasons:
- brag about the adoption rate of windows 10
- bigger share of windows 10 -> bigger adoption of the technology it includes -> maybe increase number of windows "app" -> help with their smartphone/tablet market share

Re:Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

That is certainly better for MS than to not have an app store, not getting money AND getting a bad reputation for malware that other people distribute.

Done in by EULA

[Lead Butthead]

... and the binding arbitration clause that's now present in millions of EULA?

Re:Done in by EULA

[Ol Olsoc]

... and the binding arbitration clause that's now present in millions of EULA?

Ain't it funny to watch thedissemblingc and tap-dancing? Let's keep badgering the shills - their getting entertaining now.

Though it is pretty hard to beat "They aren't doing what they said they would do, ant peopl report that they are doing because they wouldn't do that, and besides, why would they do that and your Grandma came over last night and updated your computers to Windows ten , but you must not have been paying attention.

What's the next scenario, shills?

Re:Done in by EULA

[thegarbz]

Not binding in most countries.

Re:Done in by EULA

[Anonymous Coward]

Different AC, but again:

Just because a EULA says something doesn't mean that it is legally enforceable.

IANAL, but I would suspect that it would be entirely feasible to have a lawyer challenge that arbitration clause outside of an arbitration. Somebody more informed please now come and tear this comment apart, but I don't see any difference between "We can install whatever updates we want", and "All disputes must use binding arbitration with an arbiter chosen, employed, and paid by microsoft". They both seem like clauses that could be challenged in their legal legitimacy.

Re:Done in by EULA

[Anonymous Coward]

AC to the AC: everything in that EULA is fully enforceable in the U.S. In other countries, the situation may differ; presumably, those countries have a different EULA, or else MS expects the FUD produced by it to work for most people so they won't have to worry about effective challenge.

Big problem for my lab

[Anonymous Coward]

I run a laboratory. The control software and the equipment are only rated for Windows 7. I have had to be vigilant about this because an upgrade would screw up $400,000 worth of analytical equipment. I now have to run updates manually and review each one. I wish they'd understand that sometimes you just can't upgrade.

Re:Big problem for my lab

[Overzeetop]

If you have half a million dollars of equipment which was certified to run on a specific build of Windows 7, you'd be the worlds dumbest administrator to have windows update turned on. Actually, that goes for any operating system you're running - Linux and OSX, too. If you're hardware depends on a know, fixed installation you never, ever upgrade anything without a pre-test regimen. Any patch to the OS or drivers can result in a failure or conflict with your mission critical system.

Perhaps if you understood configuration management you'd know that.

Re:Big problem for my lab

[Anonymous Coward]

If you have half a million dollars of equipment which was certified to run on a specific build of Windows 7, you'd be the worlds dumbest administrator to have windows update turned on.

Well then, aren't we all lucky that Windows 10 denies users the ability to indefinitely defer updates? Unless, of course, you get the Enterprise version that Microsoft will not sell to end users

Re:Big problem for my lab

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm glad to see that you are capable of cordial discourse. If you read closely I have to be vigilant of what I upgrade and have to manually (i.e. not automatically) update. Part of my vigilance is working with the vendor. Maybe I should have said that I pay for annual maintenance of the equipment but also have to be aware of vulnerabilities. Would you run all of your networked PCs without keeping them secure? The problem is I have to read each update and I should be running the lab not IT.

It would be nice if my company would hire a local IT guy but they farm everything out and since these computers came with the equipment they are out of ITs scope of work.

Re:Big problem for my lab

[Anonymous Coward]

I run a laboratory. The control software and the equipment are only rated for Windows 7. I have had to be vigilant about this because an upgrade would screw up $400,000 worth of analytical equipment. I now have to run updates manually and review each one. I wish they'd understand that sometimes you just can't upgrade.

Uh, not to be a total dickhead, but in that sort of environment you should have been doing things this way all along. Not just for the OS, but for all the applications.

Re:Big problem for my lab

[ewhac]

I run a laboratory. The control software and the equipment are only rated for Windows 7. I have had to be vigilant about this because an upgrade would screw up $400,000 worth of analytical equipment.

I hope you have mounted scratch monkeys...

Re: Big problem for my lab

[Anonymous Coward]

I work in an analytical lab and I know just what you're going through. Lab administrators don't get why you shouldn't network your instruments and can't have automatic updates running and insist you work with IT to network everything. (This is the time that IT loves to throw their weight around to show that they, not you, are the boss of your PC.)

Of course the administrators are not the ones who have to clean up the mess when an update screws up your instrument software, and IT has no problem ignoring the lab when their mandatory updates zorch your PC. That's when they decide that it's your responsibility to administer your hardware.

I love listening to the computer asshats who think instrument software is 100% malleable to their way of thinking. You can tell they've never worked in a lab and are clueless about the mechanics and economics of maintaining one. There's a reason CDC doesn't network their instruments (I know, I've seen them), and it's a simple one - subjecting an instrument PC to mandatory updates (in addition to the nannyware IT loves to use) is a sure-fire way to, as a minimum, destroy performance and, at worst, wipe out your ability to run samples.

Walking a USB drive (or, perish the thought, a -floppy-!) to a networked computer not attached to instrumentation is the smart and cheap way to avoid all of these problems. Smart lab people know this and practice it whenever possible.

Can't use Win10

[JoeHockey]

I can't update to Win10 as my design software for my business does not support it. How exactly will this forced update help me?

Re:Can't use Win10

[stooo]

Perhaps by giving you a reason to try your software on Wine.

And this announcement comes on Pearl Harbor day.

[waspleg]

How appropriate.

You will be assimilated

[xxxJonBoyxxx]

NOW can we put the "Bill as Borg" icon back for Microsoft, Dice?

Re:You will be assimilated

[Tablizer]

It seems it's hard for a company to change its personality overnight. The Gates Jerkiness survives in the culture and leader selection process.

Once a Borg, always a Borg.

Re:You will be assimilated

[Anonymous Coward]

Nadella as a Ferengi? They're doing this for the latinum...

Re: You will be assimilated

[LocutusOfBorg1]

Resistance is futile

APK APK APK

[Anonymous Coward]

You can block the spying if you put 100+ of the domains that Windows phones to (see here for a full list: https://github.com/WindowsLies...) on your router's firewall. If you don't, there's an integrated key logger, but I'm not sure if Microsoft co-opts the microphone to listen to everything.

So you use that hosts file to block those dom....OMG, APK WAS RIGHT!!!

Re:APK APK APK

[LichtSpektren]

No, you can't. Windows bypasses its hosts file when contacting Microsoft domains hardcoded into the OS. You have to block the domains from the router (or maybe a third-party firewall would do the trick).

Re:APK APK APK

[cfalcon]

You have to block the domains at the router, and the IPs at the router I think too.

Re:APK APK APK

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think they're hardcorded into the entire OS - this is a common misconception. They are hardcoded into the DNS Client service (specifically dnsapi.dll), which can easily be disabled. It should be disabled anyway if you have a decent router doing DNS caching already.

This may have changed in Windows 10, though. I avoid it entirely, so I don't know how it works. But AFAIK that's how it worked in previous versions.

Re:APK APK APK

[allo]

And you'll never be sure to catch all, when a sneaky update brings new spy urls.

Re:Is this actually legal? Piece meal removal of 7

[Runaway1956]

AC has often lied to us - but, if this is true, I love it!

"I have students every day saying they want macs and even a few who are big fans of linux."

Push them, man. Teach them some critical thinking. Get all of your students to question authority. WTF has happened to us? We, as a nation, have just come to accept corporate brain washing?

PUSH THEM!

The upside

[Anonymous Coward]

Thankfully I have under 1GB storage space on my computer. Being lazy pays off sometimes.

Microsoft should be the Cap overages for this mess

[mrmaster]

I'm out $30 due to cap overages because it kept screwing up the download process.

Re:Microsoft should be the Cap overages for this m

[mrmaster]

Wow..that was some bad English. I tried to write Microsoft should pay for any ISP overages caused by the downloads.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10? Yes

[Fallen Kell]

Yes, there is a very big downside to upgrading for certain license owners. Anyone who owns a retail license or Win7 or Win8.x and upgrades now only owns an OEM license for Win10. This has important ramifications. The retail license owners are not tied to a particular motherboard, and can upgrade their system hardware and reinstall their operating system. OEM licenses are tied directly to your motherboard. If you motherboard fails or you upgrade, you need to buy a new OEM license.

This is Nadella of Borg

[johanw]

Your computers will be assimilated. Resistence is futile. All your computers will be made to service us.

Re:This is Nadella of Borg

[Anonymous Coward]

All your PC are belong to us.

FTFY

Re:This is Nadella of Borg

[Anonymous Coward]

All your computers will be made to generate us money! Because FU that's why!! What are going to use that shitty free OS used exclusively by un-washed basement dwellers!!! Or that other one named after the fruit with seeds that can used to make cyanide??

Re:Not acceptable. I have a Ceton CableCard Tuner

[ZippyTheChicken]

One very important thing for me is a Ceton CableCard Tuner I have to record shows with Media Center.. Media Center was originally in Windows 10 Preview then they intentionally removed it.. and then they disabled Netflix from working in older versions of MediaCenter... Microsoft is working with comcast to restrict home users ability to record TV Content over Cable and Antenna.. Comcast and Cox have already started converting their Set Top Boxes to IP based streaming boxes which will not allow you to locally record tv content... The FCC and many cases along the way say we have the right to record TV Content for our own use and Archive but now with Microsoft doing away with DVD support and Media Center.. we no longer have that ability.. Its going to be like trying to capture a Hulu.com TV show.. it will be close to impossible if not impossible within 5 years.. this is blatant collusion and criminal activity to require people who pay for content either on Cable or Antenna by watching commercials to stream any rerun or later viewing of a show from a service like netflix hulu or comcasts own streaming service instead of letting the User record content as has been legal since the VCR.. Today it is now illegal to transfer content from DVDs to your computer in England and other European countries.. they want us to pay them for every viewing of every show even if its a 10 year old rerun of friends.. and if you haven't noticed there are no new good shows being produced... Comcast is not only a distributor of content.. they own TV Networks and Movie Studios and Microsoft has had a relationship with them since Gates invested a billion dollars in them back in the 1990's .... Its corrupt... most likely criminal.. and definitely evil

existing installed software

[BenBoy]

Man, this is going to have a lot of unintentionally surprising effects. In my own software shop, we're definitely testing new versions in a Windows 10 environment, but any number of users are (for perfectly good reason) using old releases. I don't know of any reason our older releases *won't* run on 10, but it's completely untested ...

Download now, install later! (next 5 days)

[Anonymous Coward]

This weekend I was given a dialog that gave me the option to "download now, install later". I decided to do it, figuring I could decide later if I really wanted to install it. After downloading it, I was given the choice to schedule the install sometime in the next 5 days, or install now. There was no option not to install it, and there was no dialog close button either. I rebooted without choosing either, but I am guessing it will install in a few days. I am extremely annoyed by the shenanigans. (Maybe it was a bad dream? It seems unreal.)

Re:Download now, install later! (next 5 days)

[Qzukk]

This morning when I logged in, I got a dialog "Upgrade Now" or "Download Now" but it had the X button to close the dialog so I did.

I'm sure when I come to visit on Christmas, my mother will have windows 10 ("but it didn't give me a choice!")

Re:Download now, install later! (next 5 days)

[david_thornley]

When something really unexpected happens on my computer, I freeze. I don't touch anything. Then I look at what's happened and try to figure out a good solution.

Good habit to get into.

What does telemetry actually do?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is there reliable documentation anywhere of what the various telemetry settings in Win10 actually do? I.e. with proof rather than sycophantic "only what's needed to improve customer experience!" or paranoid "everything on your PC is uploaded to M$+NSA!"

I've switched off all the settings in Privacy panel, disabled Cortana, disabled the telemetry service, don't have Wifi (desktop), set Feedback to Never, don't use a Live account for login, don't use Onedrive, and turned off peer to peer Windows updates. What else?

Re:What does telemetry actually do?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is there reliable documentation anywhere of what the various telemetry settings in Win10 actually do? I.e. with proof rather than sycophantic "only what's needed to improve customer experience!" or paranoid "everything on your PC is uploaded to M$+NSA!"

I've switched off all the settings in Privacy panel, disabled Cortana, disabled the telemetry service, don't have Wifi (desktop), set Feedback to Never, don't use a Live account for login, don't use Onedrive, and turned off peer to peer Windows updates. What else?

Unless you removed Cortana by the roots (and even then, what's to keep MS from silently putting it back after an update?), I'm betting that cortana.exe is still running. Microsoft swears that the .exe isn't doing anything, and you can trust them on this, right?

You also can't turn off 'diagnostic and usage data' without either being an enterprise customer or editing the registry, which no user should ever have to do (nor would most users know how to do). What exactly is sent back? Who knows? What's the retention policy? No clue. How good is the supposed anonymization? Your guess is as good as mine. Maybe there are good reasons to leave that on, maybe someone has good reasons to turn that off, but that's the computer owner's choice, not Microsoft's.

See also: AdvertisingID, automatically installing apps for you in your start menu, no way to opt out of updates, uninstalling software it doesn't like as part of its own updates, and so on and so on.

Not Nice, Microsoft

[williamyf]

While I am Sold to the Win10 new ways* , I understand why some other people (minority or not, but VERY vocal) are opposed to it. So it is NOT NICE from Microsoft to push so hard for Win10.

Had they had a gentler touch from the beginning, we wouldn't see all this pushback, and all this cottage industry of tips and tricks and apps to disable the upgrade...

You harvest the tempests you sowed...

*full disclosure, my main machines are macs, some legacy win laptops and all my bootcamp partitions are going to Win10*

Re:Not Nice, Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

What pushback? A few geeks disabling automatic update? That is nothing.

How to avoid it (at least for now)

[Opportunist]

It's the old "how to disable cookies in Firefox (was it, I think?)" trick again.

MS tries to create a folder called C:\$windows.~BT to download its installer files into. Create a file by that name and, well, no way to create a folder by that name or dump the files somewhere. Installer croaks, aborts download, bullet dodged.

Of course MS will eventually catch on and close that loophole, but it should be good to let us survive another patch day.

Re:How to avoid it (at least for now)

[Anonymous Coward]

Awesome. Thanks for the advice.

No iOS rollbacks

[Immerial]

Apple sucks in the rollback department for iOS. You install the 'latest and greatest' on your phone, find your phone runs slower... guess what, you can't rollback.

Ubuntu Unity Amazon shopping lens

[tepples]

Which *BSD or Linux monetizes the users' personal information by sending it to 100+ domains?

Perhaps not 100, but anyone who can remember the Ubuntu Unity Amazon shopping lens and related controversies knows that the GNU/Linux market is not entirely free of privacy intrusions.

Re:Ubuntu Unity Amazon shopping lens

[Grishnakh]

Right, and that's why so many people abandoned Ubuntu when that happened, and migrated to other distros.

Not a problem.

But in Windows-land, people just sit around and bitch and complain, while continuing to send their money to Microsoft. (And don't forget, how much money did the Ubuntu users actually pay for using Ubuntu? Probably zero.)

Re:Ubuntu Unity Amazon shopping lens

[cfalcon]

> the GNU/Linux market is not entirely free of privacy intrusions

Whereas the Windows market consists of nothing but.

There's a ton of distros. The top one by desktop numbers is (probably) Mint, which has no such drama. If you point to ONE distro with ONE issue (and a really easy one to disable, by the way), what does that mean? Call me when there's a hundred windows distros to pick from and the Windows 10 crap is happening to just ONE of them.

Re:Ubuntu Unity Amazon shopping lens

[tepples]

But in Windows-land, people just sit around and bitch and complain, while continuing to send their money to Microsoft.

This is probably because a lot of businesses are so invested in Windows that sending a small amount of money to Microsoft would be less expensive than either A. sending a larger amount of money to the ReactOS project to bring it up to parity with Windows in the areas about which the business cares, or B. spending a larger amount of money switching to an existing non-Microsoft stack on all of its own systems while somehow retaining interoperability with its suppliers that use a Microsoft stack (e.g. files in .xlsm, .mdb, or .accdb format).

Sorry MS, not gonna happen

[Anonymous Coward]

My wife will stay on Windows 7.
I can live with the constant issues that Windows 10 gives me, but I generally like it and it's a bit faster. But my wife, sorry no, she needs her PC to just work.

Guess it's time to try SteamOS

[Anonymous Coward]

seeing as gaming is the main tether I have to Windows.

I just bought a new laptop with 7 on it

[Anonymous Coward]

as a giant fuck you to windows 10.

Slower? Legacy? NOT

[Anonymous Coward]

Wrong on both counts. 10 has the hybrid shutdown/startup introduced in 8 (logs off user, hibernates OS) working reliably for very fast startup (though 2 sec probably is on a tablet or SSD-based machine). And like all versions since Vista the rest of the system is incrementally more responsive (including application startup) on the same hardware than the previous one.

From a technical standpoint, 10 is good. From a legacy compatibility standpoint, like 8, not so much. From a privacy standpoint, very much not so much.

Get This: GWX Control Panel

[Anonymous Coward]

How this is still available I don't know. Would have thought MS would find a way to kill it by now.

http://blog.ultimateoutsider.com/2015/08/using-gwx-stopper-to-permanently-remove.html

They got me

[watermark]

Button said, "Download now and install later". What they meant was "Download now and install when it's done downloading".

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10? Yes

[Anonymous Coward]

If your motherboard fails, you are entitled to re-install the same OEM license of Windows on your system. You will have to call the automated support line to reset the activation key. Those calls are slow and tedious, but generally pretty easy to do. The correct answer when it asks you how many computers you have it installed on is always "1". It will ask you at least twice. Be prepared.

Note: The above is not true when you simply upgrade the motherboard in your system. It only applies to an OEM-supplied replacement board. Yes, even if you are the OEM.

Re:Not acceptable. I have a Ceton CableCard Tuner

[omnichad]

Microsoft is working with comcast to restrict home users ability to record TV Content over Cable and Antenna.

That's not really even Microsoft. That's the CableCard standard (record/copy flags). And it's the only reason why Windows was able to implement CableCard compatibility. This is why I only watch/record Broadcast TV, which I can get via antenna unencrypted and unencumbered and record with MythTV.

Comcast and Cox have already started converting their Set Top Boxes to IP based streaming boxes

And this is because cable companies thought even CableCard was too permissive... And this was the only exemption the FCC really approved to the CableCard requirement.

Today it is now illegal to transfer content from DVDs to your computer in England and other European countries.

And in the US. It's called the DMCA.

I can't disable auto updates bcos of vpn

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

Our company vpn runs a virus scan on my home computer before letting me log in through vpn. If auto updates to the OS are disabled, or if I don't have one of the approved anti-virus product installed, or if the firewall is not on, it would not let me use vpn. So turning off auto update is not an option. If the vpn still works after this forced update, I will use the desktop only for VPN. Everything else is on my chromebook anyway

Re:I can't disable auto updates bcos of vpn

[allo]

turn updates on, start vpn, turn updates off before they start doing anything.

Open source protest

[Anonymous Coward]

If they actually go through with this, then I would suggest asking the open source community to stop supporting Windows entirely.
I'll go first: http://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=45864

Microsoft lied when they said it was an accident

[JoeyRox]

Microsoft's claimed their previous attempt at forcing Win10 updates by converting it from an 'Optional' to 'Recommended' update was an accident. With this latest news that obviously was a lie. Microsoft did that as a trial balloon. Looks like that balloon has landed.

Re: Not acceptable. I have a Ceton CableCard Tuner

[Anonymous Coward]

I gave up watching TV a few years ago due to a horrible user agreement change by the cable operator and only bad channels to watch.

4000 channels and nothing to watch.

Cure has become worse than disease

[JoeyRox]

The only good reason to enable Windows updates was to receive security fixes. Now that Microsoft is pushing spying malware to machines the lesser of the two evils is to accept not receiving any updates.

Re:Is there a downside to upgrading to 10? Yes

[cfalcon]

Logically, if you get tricked into downloading a thing, you are now an Original Equipment Manufacturer. This is simple, people, come on.

KB3035583

[ewhac]

I have KB3035583 uninstalled and hidden, which is the systray spammer and download tool for Win 10. As far as anyone knows, will this be enough to keep Win 10 from trying to sneak into my machine?

Re:KB3035583

[Megane]

In my limited experience, it will become un-hidden when they create a newer "version" of the KB3035583 update.

The only way you can be completely sure is by turning off downloads completely.

It's the cable co's comcast is the most evil one

[Joe_Dragon]

It's the cable co's comcast is the most evil one.

They have high rent fees that are about $9-$15+ for each box.

Cable cards can cost $6-$10 outlet -$2.50 for using your own hardware + $1.50-$2.50 card rent.

They turned off CLEAR QAM when other still have it on.

also the poorest HD line up. overbuilds and small systems have more HD.

Lookee what I found on my PC

[Anonymous Coward]

I use Win7 Pro. And I'm completely happy with it. I'd noticed that Microsoft were popping up bigger and bigger notification boxes imploring me to upgrade to Win10, but I ignored them. Then today I saw this thread.

After looking through the thread, I found the update folder on my PC (wondered why the 'puter was running slowly at times).

Then I thought "better check my updates policy" and found it set to "Install Updates Automatically" with all the checkboxes ticked. Now, last time I looked, I'd set it to "check for updates but let me choose whether to download and install them", with all boxes unticked.

I'm not a habitual tin-hat wearer, but this looks decidedly fishy.

And are there any problems with just deleting $Windows.~BT now I've reset my chosen update method?

Re:Lookee what I found on my PC

[rl117]

I've seen this too, it's definitely fishy and underhanded. The crazy thing about all this is that its main effect is to destroy my already limited trust in Microsoft. Before I at least trusted that, even if occasionally broken, the updates were at least generally beneficial and I had recommended updates installed automatically. I no longer have any trust that my machine is my own and that I'll be able to continue to use it. I already had to manually clean up and hide all the updates which trigger upgrades; what a waste of my time. And who knows how long it will last. I don't want to have to research and vet every update.

The other crazy thing is that if they hadn't forced the telemetry, cortana, and forced updates, I'd have been perfectly happy to upgrade to Windows 10 months ago. Merely having clear and obvious options to fully disable them all would have been sufficient. And some real transparency over what's really being collected. It's just too much to accept. There's no way they have any business collecting this information--I simply won't be allowing it.

So an own goal for MS here. As it is, as I type this I'm installing Windows 7 in a VM, where it can live safely off the net, and be snapshotted and backed up, and exist indefinitely whatever MS may do in the future. Daft that it's come to this, but it's entirely self-inflicted. Strange that they seemingly want to kill of any serious use of their stuff.

Rip The Guts Out

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm gonna rip out Windows 10 like a f**kin' fish.

Just do this

[Anonymous Coward]

https://github.com/WindowsLies/BlockWindows/

and you know it works because MS has been actively taking down mentions of it.

Microsoft App Store

[unixisc]

Only problem is that there are hardly any apps in the store. Or let me put it another way - most of the apps you find there are apps very specific to other countries, like Brazil or India or something else. As an example, on iOS or Android, if I download the Olive Garden app, I can make a to-go order from the Olive Garden nearest me. If I download the one on the Windows Store, I get something in Portugese that would work well if I were Brazilian. Nothing against Brazil, but Microsoft's app store hardly has what I need.

Aside from a laptop, I have a Winbook, which I'd like to use w/ apps that I don't always use w/ my phone. Things like Yelp! or Fandango. Now, those 2 are available on Windows Phone 8.1, as well as Windows 10 Mobile, but if I search for them on my Winbook, I'm told that they're not compatible w/ that device (since the originals are ARM and that device is an x86). Defeats the purpose of having a Windows tablet that does anything other than what current Wintel laptops do. And speaking of Windows 10 Mobile, most of the apps that are there on iOS or Android - like Vonage, RetailMeNot, Lyft, et al are just not there on the Windows Store. Which is a pity. Most of the apps in the MS store are mediocre apps in and off themselves, many written abroad and hardly vetted by Microsoft.

The only reason Windows 10 is useful at all is that one can in the traditional way either install legacy Wintel software from CDs/DVDs or download them from websites - something that's not always an option w/ either OS X or iOS or Android or ChromeOS. In other words, no advantage over Windows 7. The UI is an advantage over Windows 8.x in that it doesn't kick open your desktop when it's not needed.

Re:Microsoft App Store

[Akili]

Oh, I won't deny that. They're having the same app shortage with their mobile platform, too.

But Microsoft is good about not being realistic with some of their approaches. They saw the popularity of the iPod and iTunes and created the Zune, now defunct. They see Apple's app store and they want that money, too. Giving away Windows 10 for free allows them to set that foundation. Because not only is it free - as this very article states, they're actively trying to push it on everyone. That's rather novel behavior for them. We have to fight to not install this update. Apple's made OS X updates for free, but never with this kind of forced-upgrade pressure.

Microsoft's motivations always come down to money via market dominance. Given that Windows and Office are (generally speaking) their prime sources of income, when they decide to give away a full update of Windows for free... then there's another way they intend to recover that money. The app store, sparse though it may be right now, is the most reasonable conclusion I've been able to draw. After all, if their app store suddenly fills up with apps but the majority of their users are on Windows 7, that's a lot of lost sales.

Get the App store on everyone's system first, and that's a major obstacle overcome. Unlike the present vicious-circle failure of trying to push a new mobile ecosystem, there's a huge and entrenched Windows market already. Now they can promise app developers all of these extra eyeballs via Windows 10.

Re:Not acceptable. I have a Ceton CableCard Tuner

[Anonymous Coward]

MythTv, Plex, Kodi, SiliconImage is in beta with a DVR/PVR, all offer some level of streaming TV just off the top of my head. Myth is the one that definietly supports livetv in that list, I think the Silicon Image solution does, but i haven't paid to be part of the beta to say for sure.

Definition of malware

[Anonymous Coward]

The VERY definition of the word is software that does not do what the owner wants it to do! MS is going to piss off a LOT of Windows 7 users if they get downgraded to Windows 10 without the user's explicit permission!

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re: Is this actually legal? Piece meal removal of

[BeaverCleaver]

Funny how those "pushing" for change are rarely the ones PAYING for the change. How much would it cost to switch from generic PCs to Macs? Even with Apple's "get them hooked early" education discounts, that has to be an expensive switch.

Besides, children are children. They just want what is cool and shiny, not what's best for the task at hand.

Never Ok

[Anonymous Coward]

It SHOULD be ok. The problem is some ISPs make it expensive. Hopefully if nothing else this will put them under an uncomfortable magnifying lens.

No, it is not okay; it is never okay. People are frequently places with limited, restricted or expensive bandwidth like coffee shops, aircraft, or tethering from their phone or a friend's phone. They may be using a rural satellite link with varying charges based on when it's used.

Just because you do your computing from your own home doesn't mean the rest of us do.

We need WINE so we can stop the winning

[cryingpoet]

I cannot help but think that if WINE (Wine Is Not an Emulator) fully supported Microsoft Office that many people could switch to their Linux flavor of choice and be done with it. Many games run under WINE already so I think support for Office is what we are really waiting for. How much funding would it take to get full support for two Office version to WORK?

I know LibreOffice and AbiWord are comparable alternatives, but a Pinto and a Lambogini Diablo are comparable. Both are cars with four wheels, but they do not quite measure up. How much funding would it take to make LibreOffice measure up?

Re:We need WINE so we can stop the winning

[cryingpoet]

I meant whining not winning

Re: Is this actually legal? Piece meal removal of

[Runaway1956]

Generic PC's are perfectly suitable for running Linux and BSD. Basically, same price as the Windows PC's commonly available on the market, minus the Microsoft tax.

Things to do..

[Anonymous Coward]

1) Migrate to apps that are cross platform
2) Once step1) is completed, install Linux Mint/Ubuntu/ZorinOS etc
3) For remaining apps that are MUST HAVE Windows only, run Wine or VirtualBox whilst looking for alternatives
4) Wave bye bye with arse to Microsoft Windows

When you see that dreaded systray icon...

[shihonage]

... go to Task Manager, find its filesystem location. Terminate running process. Remove all permissions from .exe in the filesystem.

It's the only way to be sure.

Debian Popcon

[tepples]

And I'd bet Mint got a big boost from Amazongate.

In any case, Debian and its descendants (including Ubuntu and Mint) optionally collect telemetry through popularity-contest, ostensibly to help their maintainers prioritize resources. What's the difference between Popcon and Windows 10 telemetry?

Re: Debian Popcon

[Anonymous Coward]

The optional part, for starters.

Re:Debian Popcon

[bingoUV]

Source of popcon can be examined - and for those unwilling/unable to do so, popcon is documented in much more detail than Microsoft's telemetry business. The ability to view decrypted communication before it is sent to mothership adds to the credibility of popcon.

Not to mention popcon can be very easily disabled.

Windows 10 marketing strategy. and then...

[LessThanObvious]

Users: I'd like Windows 7.

Microsoft: and then...?

Uers: Just Windows 7.

Microsoft: and then...?

Users: no and then!

Microsoft: and then...?

Disable the Update programatically

[Anonymous Coward]

Much better: read this link
        http://www.infoworld.com/article/2983777/microsoft-windows/how-to-clean-the-windows-10-crapware-off-your-windows-7-or-81-pc.html
In particular, find the section starting with the text
        "Here's how I recommend you use it:"

That page will tell you to go here:
        http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/

Running this will be much more thorough than what you recommend.

Merry Christmas!

[JoeCommodore]

Who says Microsoft doesn't give away stuff?

You know, in the past year I've done a few Linux installs and the (non-techie) users are happier with the alternative.

Maybe 2016 will be the year of the Linux Desktop.

Re:Merry Christmas!

[dbIII]

Don't worry, between the new gnome and wayland there are plenty of efforts to make sure that 2016 is not going to be the year of the linux desktop. If you install a distro from 2013 on the other hand it will just work.

Re:Merry Christmas!

[JoeCommodore]

I hear you there, as much as MS is shooting themselves in the foot seems like a lot of Linux distros have been doing the same thing.

It's time

[Anonymous Coward]

I recently switched to Linux, and I couldn't be happier. I'm no computer guru, quite the contrary actually, so I chose Linuxmint. In any event, they've made Linux so user friendly and easy to utilize that I really can't see why everyone can't make the switch.

Re:It's time

[Cro Magnon]

The biggest problem isn't the OS, but the software on the OS. LibreOffice may not be fully compatible with MS Office docs or spreadsheets, and gnucash isn't Quicken.

It's time

[frrubi]

I recently switched to Linux, and I couldn't be happier. I'm no computer guru, quite the contrary actually, so I chose Linuxmint. In any event, they've made Linux so user friendly and easy to utilize that I really can't see why everyone can't make the switch.

Will Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella go to prison?

[Anonymous Coward]

"They are getting the unintended consequences that any rational person should have seen coming a mile away. This is not going to go well for MS, and it would not surprise me if it ended up in court."

Will Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella go to prison? Other spyware makers have been convicted.

Will there be an anti-trust case against Microsoft's virtual monopoly?

Articles about Microsoft abusing customers:

Microsoft's Software is Malware. Malware means software designed to function in ways that mistreat or harm the user.

How Can Any Company Ever Trust Microsoft Again?

NSA Backdoor Exploit in Windows 8 Uncovered

Microsoft Gave the NSA Direct Backdoor Access to Outlook, Skype

Microsoft has no plans to tell us what's in Windows patches. Each update is a black box, and it's going to stay that way.

Leaks show that Microsoft writes release notes, so why can't it publish them? The lack of documentation of Windows' updates is a baffling move on Microsoft's part.

Microsoft [lack of] Privacy Statement

Here's how to Block Windows 10 "Spying"

Automatic Install

[Anonymous Coward]

I had it download automatically to my C:\ root. It then started popups asking if I wanted to install now or later. These popups stole focus and minimized everything else. Some apps do not want to minimize. In the interest of my work apps not crashing when force minimized, I clicked later. It immediately started installing. I rebooted. I tried a few times to get around this. Regardless of whether I click now or later, it starts installing immediately.

Global Mother Fucking Spyware?

[Anonymous Coward]

http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/08/microsoft-has-no-plans-to-tell-us-whats-in-windows-patches/
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/09/leaks-show-that-microsoft-writes-release-notes-so-why-cant-it-publish-them/

https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/malware-microsoft.html
http://www.computerworlduk.com/blogs/open-enterprise/how-can-any-company-ever-trust-microsoft-again-3569376/
http://www.networkworld.com/article/2956574/microsoft-subnet/windows-10-privacy-spyware-settings-user-agreement.html

http://www.technobuffalo.com/2013/08/22/nsa-windows-8-exploit/
http://www.technobuffalo.com/2013/07/11/microsoft-gave-the-nsa-direct-backdoor-access-to-outlook-skype/
http://winsupersite.com/windows-10/how-stop-windows-10-upgrade-downloading-your-system
http://www.extremetech.com/computing/195592-with-windows-10-microsoft-could-move-to-a-subscription-based-model
http://www.extremetech.com/computing/205320-microsoft-windows-10-will-be-the-last-version-of-windows
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GU5uv28a3I
http://techrights.org/2015/07/31/vista-10-anticompetitive/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwRYyWn7BEo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gghj03J_ri0
http://localghost.org/posts/a-traffic-analysis-of-windows-10
http://www.ghacks.net/2015/08/28/microsoft-intensifies-data-collection-on-windows-7-and-8-systems/

THESE
https://gitlab.com/windowslies/blockwindows
^(have to un-comment the #'s on two url's in the hosts file per latest change) LOOK, NOTICE THIS
https://senk9.wordpress.com/checklists/windows-10-privacy-checklist/
^Applies to 7/8/8.1 too.

It should be illegal but in the U.S. it's fine

[Anonymous Coward]

IIRC one of the Windows Updates a year or 2 ago changed the license for all MS software including supported Windows versions (XP people, you're in luck since you're out of maintenance!) to include the language that's in the Windows 10 license. And the Windows 8 license was pretty close to the Win10 license anyway so only some details were changed. If you're still using Windows, rather than switching to something like Mac or Linux, you agreed to that change of terms. So we're all hosed legally, at least in the U.S., if we're still using Win 7 or 8 after next summer and MS wants to make an issue of it. Oh yes, and mandatory arbitration and prohibition of class actions were also part of the terms change.

www.change.org

[Anonymous Coward]

JOIN ME and FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHTS ! we can do this together slashdot!

SHARE ask everyone to sing it together we are strong !

I just started the petition "Microsoft Board of Directors, Dr. Klawe, Ms. List-Stoll, Mr. Morfit, Mr. Noski, Dr. Panke, Mr. Scharf, Mr. Stanton, Mr. Thompson, Satya Nadella: Stop it Microsoft ! (installing an os is my choice!)" and wanted to see if you could help by adding your name.
My goal is to reach 100 signatures and I need more support. You can read more and sign the petition here:

https://www.change.org/p/microsoft-board-of-directors-dr-klawe-ms-list-stoll-mr-morfit-mr-noski-dr-panke-mr-scharf-mr-stanton-mr-thompson-satya-nadella-stop-it-microsoft-installing-an-os-is-my-choice?recruiter=91413316&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=share_email_responsive
Thanks!
charles

Deepthroat Windows10

[Anonymous Coward]

How is Microsoft going to make bold claims of mass adoption if they don't force it down your throat?

I wants Windows 10, but can't install it

[Ryan McLaughlin]

I actually want Windows 10, and have tried to install it several times, but when the installer boots it says the resolution of my monitor (1280 x 1024) is not supported. Microsoft, please fix this so I can use your software.

Re:I wants Windows 10, but can't install it

[unixisc]

The latest update - that allows me more tiles on a screen - doesn't install on my Winbook. Hope this is addressed as well

That's WHY I built this... apk

[Anonymous Coward]

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Maybe Trump was right....

[Anonymous Coward]

.... close off the internet to stop windows 10....

Re:Lega

[bn-7bc]

Sorry to nit pick but those are consoles not gp computers (ie sold as single use gaming machines). Competitors for windows wold be BSDs, GNU/Linux and to some extent OSX (well ok I know not a straight replacement as you ned to get hw from apple in order to get a legit licence for osx). So the question is has any of the above OSs done this? To my knowlage no but I apreciate any corrections.

Home-built PCs immune to Win10 upgrade

[LinuxLuver]

My PC is one that I installed a legal copy of Windows 7 Professional myself. It has no system reserved position, apparently. So the Win 10 upgrader looks for the system reserved partition it expected to find on a store-bought preload, doesn't find it and informs me that my system can't be updated. Fine! But please stop offering the upgrade then. You already know you can't do it. I wonder if I bought a box of Win10 if it would upgrade. Probably not. We had a house fire and my Win7 DVD was damaged. I have it, but it probably isn't readable.

OSX has a great track record

[fibrewire]

Never in the history of OSX did the operating system break compatibility with all of its existing software intentionally. In fact, when Apple shifted to a different x86 cpu, they provided tools which let someone run software from A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ARCHITECTURE TO MAINTAIN COMPATIBILITY. Last time I checked, Microsoft has never done anything like this, as their business model has been "Buy all new stuff so we can fuck you out of it in two to three years"

Re:OSX has a great track record

[goarilla]

Microsoft has "compatibility mode" but it's not perfect and neither was Rosetta.

Disappointed in slash dotters resonse

[rhyous]

There are a lot of whiners and complainers.

Microsoft isn't being evil. It realizes that supporting legacy OSes is costly and insecure. It realizes that if everyone moves to Windows 10 faster, then everyone is more secure.

Since MS is giving Windows 10 for free, you can't pull the revenue for license claim

Yes, Microsoft is a for profit business. There are many profits to be had. Shrewd business practices DOES NOT EQUAL evil business practices. MS and the world will get a greater benefit from a quicker move to W10. More similar install bases. Developers can target universal apps and don't have to write code to work with legacy OSes, etc...

Calling Windows 10 for free evil, is pretty lame.

Google Chrome forces updates of itself.
Google drops supports of quite recent Android OSes.
Apple makes zero effort in backwards compatibility in OS X .

Microsoft has to adapt to keep up with the competition.

Use GWX Stopper to Disable Win10 Update+Downloads

[Anonymous Coward]

Use the GWX Control Panel/GWX Stopper utility to stop this MS hazard and free 6GB on you dik if the download has already ocurred.

http://blog.ultimateoutsider.com/2015/08/using-gwx-stopper-to-permanently-remove.html
http://www.neowin.net/news/gwx-control-panel-1601

i'm still waiting....

[xuvetyn]

for a notification to "upgrade" either of my 2 machines.

Win10 upgrade

[Anonymous Coward]

When this first came out, my first thought was; Since when has Microsoft EVER given away anything for free? And sure enough, it's all bad. I believe it is time to switch to something else.

And then Spybot turned into a butthole.

[Anonymous Coward]

Spybot automatically installed itself even after I finally gave up trying to stop it, let it install, and then properly uninstalled it. The offending file was hidden by me by the default W10 settings, too.

I am a little bit ticked off that the moment I was converted into a revenue stream for Microsoft, after being badgered into an upgrade I don't need, everything I do became more difficult. From now on , every time I have to research how to use my goddamned machine the way I comfortably used it before, I'll be devoting an equal amount of research time into forever leaving Windows.

So, about this Ubuntu thing, what is the pornography like on it?

Re:Lega

[cfalcon]

> Sorry to nit pick but those are consoles not gp computers

Well, none of them can run a simple bash script, so they are all roughly equal in functionality. And the only reason anyone stays with Windows is because of the games, right? I mean, come on- you can't seriously expect Windows to do the work of a Linux distro, right? Windows is a toy OS that runs some games, like the Wii U and the PS4 dashboards.