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Man Sued For $30K Over $40 Printer He Sold On Craigslist (usatoday.com)

An anonymous reader cites an article on USA Today: Selling a used, black-and-white printer through Craigslist seemed simple and straightforward to Doug Costello. It wasn't. What the 66-year-old Massachusetts man didn't know then is that he would spend the next 6 and a half years embroiled in a complicated and confusing legal dispute in Indiana over that printer, which, according to its buyer, was broken. He would find himself liable for about $30,000 in damages. He would pay a lawyer at least $12,000 in his battle to escape the legal mess. And it all started with a piece of hardware he sold online for about $40 in 2009. With shipping and other costs, the total was less than $75, according to court records.Gersh Zavodnik, the printer's buyer, has been described as "prolific, abusive litigant" who has brought dozens of lawsuits against individuals and businesses. He often asks for "astronomical" damages.

571 comments

  1. Reminds me of by msmash · · Score: 2

    For some reason, this whole fiasco reminds me of this scene from Office Space.

    1. Re:Reminds me of by AntronArgaiv · · Score: 4, Funny

      For some reason, this whole fiasco reminds me of this scene from Office Space.

      With the part of the printer played by Mr. Zavodnik?

    2. Re:Reminds me of by msmash · · Score: 1

      Yes sir. It's pretty sad, though.

  2. US Legal system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Where it's not about whether you win or lose, it's about bankrupting the opponent

    1. Re:US Legal system by pete6677 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Does it work differently in any other country?

    2. Re:US Legal system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh yes!

    3. Re:US Legal system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Yes they do. In some countries loser has to pay for all court costs. This prevents people and companies from bring a suit they know they will lose.

    4. Re:US Legal system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yes. In all of them.

    5. Re:US Legal system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Of course it's better! Here on Slashdot, you'll learn that everywhere else in the world, with the possible exception of Mogadishu - which we all know is obviously a cautionary example of the implementation of extremist libertarian / Republican politics - is better than the USA.

    6. Re:US Legal system by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Does it work differently in any other country?

      In many other countries, individuals and small businesses have little or no access to the legal system. America's legal system can be abused, but it is still superior to most others. It is not difficult to defend yourself without going bankrupt. You need to educate yourself, and do as much of the work yourself. If you trust your lawyer, you will definitely get screwed. In most legal situations, your primary adversary is your own lawyer, not the opposing party. Online resources have made it far easier to go pro per.

      The USAToday article is very biased. The defendant mostly screwed himself by losing documents (and then claiming he never received them) and not responding before deadlines. The courts don't put up with that crap. The facts don't matter if you don't deliver them to the court. He was an idiot, and he left the court to decide based on a preponderance of the evidence that all came from the plaintiff.

    7. Re:US Legal system by thegarbz · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Does it work differently in any other country?

      Yes. In countries where the loser pays the legal fees automatically by default there's a lot less of this sue over every stupid thing bullshit.

    8. Re:US Legal system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yes, in Britain the sued party can recover attorneys fees automatically when the litigant loses the case.

      In the field of law and economics, the English rule (capitalized as English Rule in some jurisdictions) is a rule controlling assessment of attorneys' fees arising out of litigation. The English rule provides that the party who loses in court pays the other party's attorney's fees. The English rule contrasts with the American rule, under which each party is generally responsible to pay its own attorneys' fees, unless a statute or contract provides for that assessment. The rationale for the English rule is that a litigant (whether bringing a claim or defending a claim) is entitled to legal representation and, if successful, should not be left out of pocket by reason of his own legal fees. It should be borne in mind that, in virtually all English civil litigation, damages are merely compensatory.

      The US could benefit from a law like this to cut down on frivilous lawsuits and it would also tamp down surious patent shakedowns.

    9. Re:US Legal system by sg_oneill · · Score: 5, Informative

      Does it work differently in any other country?

      Here in west australia you would bring a claim like this to the small claims tribunal, or in other states magistrates course. You generally dont employ lawyers at these things, and its largely a couple of people resolving a dispute in front of the judge whos primarily there to mediate the dispute rather than award outrageous and punitive damages. Its pretty cheap, and appropriate for small claims.

      The littigant would have been awarded $75 (the amount he paid) and possibly a refund of his court fees.

      --
      Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
    10. Re:US Legal system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      Does it work differently in any other country?

      I don't know about other countries but in here in Finland you can only sue for real damages and costs, not astronomic sums like this. So here you could sue for 40 dollars plus legal costs in this case.

    11. Re:US Legal system by ADRA · · Score: 1

      Yes

      --
      Bye!
    12. Re:US Legal system by AuMatar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In countries where the loser pays the legal fees, the person with more money is never taken to court because suing will bankrupt the little guy if he loses. I'm not going to sue for my $500 loss if I have a 10% chance of losing and he'll spend 30k defending himself. Loser pays means that poor and middle class can't seek justice at all.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    13. Re:US Legal system by gnasher719 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Does it work differently in any other country?

      In Germany, the judge first figures out how much we are arguing about, here: $30,000. Or $29,955 if the guy offered to return the $45. Then the judge looks up what the fees or the court and the lawyers would be for a $30,000 case, maybe $3,000 altogether. That's what court and lawyers get (court is not free).

      Should the judge order a payment of $60, that's 0.2% of what they argued about, then the defendent pays $60 plus 0.2% of the cost (court and both lawyers), that's another six dollars, while the plaintiff gets $60 and pays 99.8% of the cost, that is $2,994.,

      That's why people in Germany don't go to court and ask for ridiculous amounts of money.

    14. Re:US Legal system by gnasher719 · · Score: 3, Informative

      In countries where the loser pays the legal fees, the person with more money is never taken to court because suing will bankrupt the little guy if he loses. I'm not going to sue for my $500 loss if I have a 10% chance of losing and he'll spend 30k defending himself. Loser pays means that poor and middle class can't seek justice at all.

      In Germany, for a $500 case the cost will be around $100. The lawyer won't do much work, and the judge will also not do much work, for a $500 case.

    15. Re:US Legal system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In those countries they usually have minimum damage before you can sue. (more than $500, usually a few grand)
      For smaller amounts you take them to a tribunal, or 'small claims court' where often solicitors are not allowed and it's a quick hour/one day session with a token cost.

    16. Re:US Legal system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      You didn't finish reading the article, did you?

      The appeals court threw out that $30k judgment as having no basis in reality, and 'The appeals court ordered the trial court to hold a hearing to determine whether the case should be dismissed "based on Zavodnik's repeated, flagrant, and continuing failure to comply with Indiana's rules of procedure." '

    17. Re:US Legal system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are limits for the amount that the loser needs to pay in case his/her expenses are completely different than those of the winner. That's not something to be overly worried about usually...

    18. Re:US Legal system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does it work differently in any other country?

      Yes.

    19. Re:US Legal system by JackieBrown · · Score: 2

      Alternatively, that benefits large companies who can when through sheer will and money and add another burden to the loser as well as letting the company recoup its costs

    20. Re:US Legal system by F.Ultra · · Score: 2

      Why not sue if you have a 90% chance of winning? Since the loosing part pays you as the little guy have no problem loaning money to match that 30k spent by the defendant. I have heard of very little "the poor and middle calls can't seek justice" in my country which have loser pays all rules for civil suits. What have happened though is a few cases where people really didn't understand the rules and where shocked when they lost and had to pay the other sides costs.

    21. Re:US Legal system by Alomex · · Score: 1

      In many other countries judges are way more empowered to issue summarily dismissals on the face of a ridiculous trial. In the US the standard for summary dismissals is much too high.

    22. Re:US Legal system by SDF-7 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      And that's how these things would normally be handled here as well.

      In fact, it is mentioned in the article that it *did* go to small claims first, where the plaintiff asked for a ridiculous court-maximum of $6000 (for a $75 online purchase). That got found in favor of the defendant after the plantiff apparently admitted to destroying/disposing of the printer and had no further evidence of it not being as described in the sale.

      Only after he lost in small claims did he somehow then take it to additional courts. I have a few thoughts based on the Indiana Supreme Court actually knowing this guy by name and commenting on his usage of the courts -- but the words "libel suit" are coming to my mind so I'll just keep my impressions to myself.

    23. Re:US Legal system by neghvar1 · · Score: 4, Informative

      That is how Scientology works. "The purpose of the suit is to harass and discourage rather than win. The law can be used very easily to harass, and enough harassment on somebody who is simply on the thin edge anyway, well knowing that he is no authorized, will generally be sufficient to cause his professional decease. If possible, or course, ruin him utterly" - L. Ron Hubbard, The Scientologist, a Manual on the Dissemination of Material, 1955

    24. Re:US Legal system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, the poor have much more chances of justice in a system where they have a 100% chance of spending the same 30k to defend himself.

      And you are now at +4, the US justice system is not brain-dead, their people are.

    25. Re:US Legal system by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 2

      That doesn't explain why the courts of this particular area kept allowing an obvious legal troll to keep filing follow-ons to a case that he lost at the outset. This Zavodnick character must know dirt about some judge's family to get preferential access to the legal system.

    26. Re:US Legal system by BUL2294 · · Score: 1

      If you read the article, you'd see Zavodnik did go to small claims court asking for $6000 (an already insane amount), but lost because he had already thrown away the printer. So, he refiled in a real court for $30k for breach of contract, fraud, etc. Basically, he didn't like his outcome the first time so he doubled-down...

      --
      Windows 3.1x calc: 3.11 - 3.10 = 0.00
    27. Re:US Legal system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does it work differently in any other country?

      Yes. In New Zealand we have a small claims tribunal where lawyers are not permitted, and both parties argue their case directly in front of an arbitrator (usually a judge). The fees are very small, and there are limits on damages. If you tried to bring a suit over $40 to a civil court, you would not get a hearing, and the defendant would have nothing to answer for.

    28. Re:US Legal system by torkus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In the US, people sometimes bring a lawyer to TRAFFIC court if they want a good chance of having the ticket dismissed.

      Litigation is big, HUGE business. Where else can you be on the hook for more than $10,000 for downloading a single mp3?

      --
      You can get rich if you own a politician, but you have to be rich to buy one in the first place.
    29. Re:US Legal system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the UK it would likely be handled in the small claims court and the award would be $75.

    30. Re:US Legal system by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      That doesn't explain why the courts of this particular area kept allowing an obvious legal troll to keep filing follow-ons to a case that he lost at the outset.

      Actually, it does. The judge does NOT represent the defendant. The defendant represents the defendant. In nearly all cases, a small claims ruling cannot be appealed by the plaintiff, so he could have pretty easily stopped any appeal, but instead HE FAILED TO RESPOND, and let the case proceed by default. By the time he realized he was in serious jeopardy, the deadlines were past, and it was too late. Woody Allen once said that "90% of success is just showing up". That is especially true in court.

       

    31. Re:US Legal system by Dan1701 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      In Britain, this sort of thing would probably be dealt with in a Small Claims Court, and would cost next to nothing for the defendant to represent himself. The outrageous damages would be viewed by a judge as outright silliness and dismissed; even were the defendant to lose, the most that would happen would be the cost of his printer plus the other part's costs (which he could apply to the court to "tax" if he felt them unreasonable).

      This sort of thing would also likely get the serial litigant declared to be a Vexatious Litigant. the Uk Government keeps a public list of these people, who must seek a court's permission before embarking on any litigation whatsoever, because they have shown themselves to be time-wasters in the past.

    32. Re:US Legal system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It wasn't an appeal though, it was a new lawsuit. And then the defendant failed to respond to requests for admissions of guilt. "In 2010, Zavodnik sent Costello paperwork asking him to admit that he was liable for more than $30,000 for breach of contract, fraud and conversion." "Zavodnik also had sent Costello two more requests for admissions. One asked Costello to admit that he conspired with the judge presiding over the case, and that he was liable for more than $300,000. Another one requested Costello to admit that he was liable for more than $600,000." In what kind of screwed up world does not responding to a request for an admission of guilt make you liable for a million dollars in damages?

    33. Re:US Legal system by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2, Informative

      In what kind of screwed up world does not responding to a request for an admission of guilt make you liable for a million dollars in damages?

      In the imaginary made-up world of USAToday journalism. This was a civil lawsuit, which doesn't even have a concept of "guilt" and "innocence". I have don't know what actually happened, but it certainly wasn't what TFA described. My best guess is that he failed to respond to interrogatories.

    34. Re:US Legal system by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Loser pays the costs means the richest person usually wins. It is also up to the courts to set standards so that one side does not flood the other with paperwork and endless motions. A corporation with a set of lawyers on staff that know the legal system will think nothing of a few hundred dollars spent on court filings every day. The loser should only pay if the court finds the suit was frivolous or without reasonable merit.

    35. Re:US Legal system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Small claims is a waste of time. A Flatmate stole cheques from us and was constantly late with his share of the rent, we kicked him out and took him to small claims. The first two times he never showed to the court appointments, and was eventually brought to court by a bailiff on the third attempt, (yet another day off work to attend this) Yay we won, he has to pay us at $5 a week, which we have never seen. What a waste of time. It would have just been more satisfying to go round to his new place with some chains and a baseball bat an ask nicely for him to cough up the cash.

    36. Re:US Legal system by cliffjumper222 · · Score: 1

      Mod this guy up, just for the word "Vexatious". Needs more of that here in the US.

    37. Re: US Legal system by chaboud · · Score: 1

      That's actually pretty brilliant. It discourages shooting for huge amounts. Instead, you should sue for what you think you should actually get.

    38. Re:US Legal system by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 0

      Vexatious Litigant!

      Most slashdotters are Vexatious Masturbants!

      I know I will get downmodded. Don't touch Submit don't touch submit don't

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    39. Re:US Legal system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In most of the U.S. this would also be settled in small claims court. It does appears that the litigant is a serial litigant. My brother in law was such a person. He kept a lawyer on retainer and spent most of his time suing people so that he didn't have to work. Most times it never went to court because businesses paid him to go away.
      Unfortunately as far as I know there is no special barring of serial litigants in the U.S. It's really too bad, as that would prevent much of the frivolous filings that happen here.

    40. Re:US Legal system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ok

    41. Re:US Legal system by skegg · · Score: 1

      Small claims tribunals (or consumer tribunals, etc) in Australia actively discourage legal representation.
      You need to apply to have a lawyer represent you, and that request may very well be turned down.

      http://www.ncat.nsw.gov.au/Pages/going_to_the_tribunal/representation.aspx

    42. Re:US Legal system by I'm+Hammered · · Score: 2

      Why not sue if you have a 90% chance of winning?

      Because the potential loss is so much greater than the potential gain. There is a concept in probability theory called expected value. It's essentially a weighted average of the various possible outcomes.

      In this case it would simply be: (what you have to gain) * (probability of winning) + (what you have to lose) * (probability of losing).

      ($500) * (0.9) + (-$30,000) * (0.1) = $450 - $3,000 = -$2,550

      So the decision to sue will average out to a (per occurrence) loss of $2,550. That's why you shouldn't sue.

    43. Re:US Legal system by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      The underlying problem here is that the civil court system is designed to maximize lawyer profit by subjecting, potentially, anyone to junk actions by litigious trolls like this.

      Herewith, my reform: Subject civil suits to the much stiffer rules of criminal procedure. A plaintiff would have to convince all of the jurors, not just a majority, on a "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard of evidence, rather than "preponderance of evidence." And while we're at it, let's throw out the junk forms of evidence, like hearsay, that is only admissible in civil procedure. Putting a civil plaintiff in the same position as a criminal prosecutor would just by itself, clean a lot of the crap out of our courts.

    44. Re:US Legal system by bingoUV · · Score: 0

      In a country where mobile phone users are considered too stupid to be able to shop for a mobile phone equipment and SIM card separately, and to realize that hot coffee could scald - it is surprising that being stupid can cause so much monetary loss through the courts.

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
    45. Re:US Legal system by martas · · Score: 1

      The outrageous damages would be viewed by a judge as outright silliness and dismissed

      As they would be in the US, if you actually bothered to show up in court.

      This sort of thing would also likely get the serial litigant declared to be a Vexatious Litigant

      That happens in the US too, but it's a bit more complicated since the legal system is a lot more fragmented.

    46. Re:US Legal system by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      Loser pays the costs means the richest person usually wins.

      How so? Compared to everyone paying their own costs, where someone with limited funds can't afford to bring a case or defend themselves in court even if they are totally in the right, loser pays seems to cause far less trouble with this sort of abusive litigation.

      In the UK, for example, we don't tend to see things like aggressive letters from IP lawyers saying someone was kind sorta found to maybe be downloading something they shouldn't have, but if they just pay up (average legal fees to defend yourself)/2 in a settlement the lawyers will go away.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    47. Re:US Legal system by jcr · · Score: 1

      The courts in the USA can declare someone a vexatious litigant, too. Not sure who has to bring the action to do so, but once someone has been declared such, they have to get a judge's permission to file any suit from that point on.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    48. Re:US Legal system by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Because one side can keep ratcheting up costs as much as they like. Keep filing motions with the clerk of the court. Costs go up. Poor plaintiff loses due to back luck, and has to pay for all those court filings, plus attorney cost for the rich person (never mind if they were on the payroll anyway), travel costs for everyone involved, and so forth. If the plaintiff only makes about $30K a year and a Google map automobile drove over their mailbox are they really going to want to go to court to get Google to pay the $100 if they might end up on the hook for $2000 or more if they lose?

    49. Re:US Legal system by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 2

      In the imaginary made-up world of USAToday journalism. This was a civil lawsuit, which doesn't even have a concept of "guilt" and "innocence".

      Uh, Bill, could you please point to the statement in the USA Today article which uses the word "guilt" or "innocence"?? (Hint: those words never appear.)

      I have don't know what actually happened, but it certainly wasn't what TFA described. My best guess is that he failed to respond to interrogatories.

      Well, uh, that's precisely what TFA says -- the plaintiff supposedly sent the defendant statements asking him to admit liability, and the defendant never responded. Whether there was no response because the defendant never received them (as he claimed) or because he was just tired of this BS after the case had already been dismissed multiple times, the defendant never admitted liability.

      Nevertheless, there was some BS law in Indiana that was interpreted as an admission of liability (not of "guilt" -- and USA Today doesn't use that term a single time).

      Oh, and Bill, if you think USA Today is inaccurate, they give a link to the final court decision in the article (which you can find here), which basically summarizes the case pretty similarly to the article.

      If you want to bitch about TFA, at least RTFA. If you want to bitch about GP's misuse of terminology, then realize that's GP's fault.

    50. Re:US Legal system by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      The system you describe is how it works in many countries, making it nearly impossible for normal citizens to challenge corporations, and making contracts and business agreements nearly impossible to enforce. This stifles investments, and dries up credit since lenders have little recourse against delinquent borrowers.

    51. Re:US Legal system by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      (a) Most jurisdictions have some form of small claims process to deal with the $100 issue, often not even allowing professional lawyers to be present. Large organisations like Google can be and have been successfully sued in small claims actions.

      (b) As I mentioned in another post, loser pays doesn't necessarily mean the loser automatically and inevitably pays all costs of the victor no matter how disproportionate. In sane jurisdictions, the award is made by the trial judge based on what is reasonable under the circumstances, even if the presumption is in favour of the victor's costs being paid. The kind of acts you mentioned might reasonably be disregarded for the purposes of awarding costs if they appeared to have been calculated to increase those costs as a deterrent to the other party rather than done to support the case being made.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    52. Re:US Legal system by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      What's preventing the rich dude from paying a lawyer $5k over that $500 case?

      That being said, in the USA for $500 you wouldn't generally have lawyers at all, it'd all be small claims.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    53. Re: US Legal system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      US expat living in Germany.
      Here they have a type of legal insurance, I think almost everyone has it. It's very affordable here too.

    54. Re:US Legal system by mattack2 · · Score: 1

      In the US, people sometimes bring a lawyer to TRAFFIC court if they want a good chance of having the ticket dismissed.

      The idea is probably much older, but I first heard the concept described within the past few years on Adam Carolla's podcast..

      Many people have heard of "F You" money.. He's mentioned the concept of "F Me" money. Basically, having enough money to cost yourself more money than it would have cost to do the "easier" thing. In this case, pay the ticket.. or in other cases, pay to settle lawsuits (like the podcast patent one he was sued over).

      Some people could probably argue this as "the person with the money screwing over the other guy". I see it as "wasting" money for the principle of the thing.

      I bet many of the traffic court examples are smaller versions of that.

    55. Re:US Legal system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It's not superior, it's fucking stupid. This would be laughed out of court before it even got there in any sane country. In New Zealand this would go to small claims, it would cost $25 to lodge and result in the seller refunding the buyer the original $40. Superior legal system, no idea where you got that from.

    56. Re:US Legal system by MrKaos · · Score: 1

      Of course it's better! Here on Slashdot, you'll learn that everywhere else in the world, with the possible exception of Mogadishu - which we all know is obviously a cautionary example of the implementation of extremist libertarian / Republican politics - is better than the USA.

      Maybe not better, but different. If this sort of case is even tolerated in the US Justice system then it would seem that it is burdened by so many "noise" cases that its functionality is compromised. I would have thought that this kind of case is considered Barratry and that the person constantly pursuing it would themselves face criminal charges for "trolling" the legal system.

      Maybe in the US system it is up to the defendant to bring barratry charges against the appellant.

      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    57. Re:US Legal system by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      Sounds as though you have a stake in the existing horrible mess...

    58. Re:US Legal system by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

      And... the drop into ad hominem instead of refuting his logic.

    59. Re:US Legal system by Swave+An+deBwoner · · Score: 1
      He did first sue in small claims court but the case was thrown out because he had already disposed of / destroyed the evidence. So then he escalated.

      According to court records, Zavodnik initially filed a lawsuit in Marion County Small Claims Court, where he asked for the maximum damages of $6,000. Zavodnik lost because he had thrown away the evidence (the printer), court records said.

      Costello said he thought that was the end of the legal fight, but Zavodnik filed another lawsuit in Marion Superior Court, where he requested damages for breach of contract, fraud, conversion, deceptive advertising and emotional distress.

    60. Re:US Legal system by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      No, I sincerely want to know why making it exactly as difficult to win a civil suit as to get a criminal conviction would "make it impossible to challenge corporations" or "make business contracts nearly impossible to enforce" or "stifle investment." And which are these countries where business deals and needed infrastructure can be undertaken without having to run a gantlet of just-because-I-can lawsuits? What in hell could be wrong with requiring a high standard of proof for suits, other than having an interest in saving the kind of inanity described in this article?

    61. Re:US Legal system by alexgieg · · Score: 2

      If you trust your lawyer, you will definitely get screwed. In most legal situations, your primary adversary is your own lawyer, not the opposing party.

      This happened to a friend of mine. She lost an arm and part of her vision in an accident, and also got PTSD. The lawyer she contracted to do the work to get her disability benefits showed in court one week after the deadline. Now she's unable to work and unable to receive disability benefits.

      She tried then finding a lawyer that would help her get this overturned. No lawyer she contacted wanted to touch the case, because they all said they work for workers' compensation, so they cannot do anything against it. Some said they'd look into it if she calculated for them how much they might earn, which she has no idea how to do.

      Then she tried finding one that'd help her sue her previous lawyer for malpractice, and no one wants to help.

      So now, thanks to this, she's a one armed, partially blind, PTSD-suffering, mendicant, as she depends on the help of friends to have, among other things, a ceiling and food.

      If anyone reading this has a suggestion I could forward her on how to solve this absurd situation, please provide it. It'd be most welcome...

      --
      Conservatism: (n.) love of the existing evils. Liberalism: (n.) desire to substitute new evils for the existing ones.
    62. Re: US Legal system by KenHansen · · Score: 2

      That doesn't explain why the courts of this particular area kept allowing an obvious legal troll to keep filing follow-ons to a case that he lost at the outset.

      He has the right to file as many appeals, follow-ons, and other motions as he likes... It isn't up to the whim or personal opinion of the judge... Do you think it should be? Do you want the judge to the gatekeeper to who is allowed to file and what they can file?

    63. Re: US Legal system by KenHansen · · Score: 1

      In Britain, this sort of thing would probably be dealt with in a Small Claims Court, and would cost next to nothing for the defendant to represent himself.

      Pretty sure Indiana, and every other state in the union have a small claims court... It isn't a novel concept the 'dumb colonialists' have yet to adopt...

    64. Re:US Legal system by bensch128 · · Score: 1

      That is how Scientology works.
      "The purpose of the suit is to harass and discourage rather than win.

      That is correct. In other cases (Donald Trump), the aggressive party just threatens to sue and hopes that will shut-up his critics or make the other party back down.

      Never a dull moment in the US courtrooms....

      I can't figure out why the defendant doesn't counter sue the plaintiff for harassment and emotional distress.
      I imagine that he could easily get triple damages... however, collecting from such a person would be difficult.

    65. Re:US Legal system by _Sharp'r_ · · Score: 2

      In the US legal system (i.e. this case), it was dealt with in small claims court without lawyers and the respondent (Costello) won. As far as he was concerned, it was over.

      Then the guy who sued appealed by suing again in a higher court. Depending on which version of events you want to believe, Costello then ignored everything about that new lawsuit (including "settlement" offers) and didn't respond at all, or else the guy suing him never actually sent him the papers.

      In order to speed up civil trials, the courts had a rule that said if you don't respond within 30 days, you get a default judgement as if you admitted what was sent you. This is supposed to be to encourage people to actually talk and negotiate in good faith. In this case, the guy suing used a trick he'd apparently used many times before and asked for a bunch of money to try and get a default judgement.

      The trial judge felt constrained by the court rules (which he doesn't set) to rule for the guy suing because of the rule. He did rule only for $30K, not the $300K and $600K the guy later asked for.

      When Costello finally showed up and contested it by appealing the judgement, then next level of judges tossed out the judgement (along with a bunch of others for the same guy) and said, "No, you can't just send a settlement offer completely unjustified by the facts and use this rule to try and enforce them as a default judgement. Screw-off! No money for you!" (I'm paraphrasing) after which Costello was relieved and justice was served. The end.

      The moral of the story, either respond to legal stuff, or else make them prove they served it on you if they didn't. Otherwise, much ado about nothing.

      --
      The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.
    66. Re:US Legal system by _Sharp'r_ · · Score: 1

      Bottom line... same here in the U.S., which is why the appeals court said, "This amount has no basis in actual damages. The rule for default judgements wasn't meant to be used this way, with no basis in fact. You suck and you lose in this and any other cases which were treated the same way." (I'm paraphrasing).

      --
      The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.
    67. Re:US Legal system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the plaintiff, on the other hand, TOSSED THE PRINTER. no printer, no case. done deal, case closed. the courts totally fucked the obvious, again.

    68. Re:US Legal system by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      You deserve to have 3 gallons of McDonalds coffee poured over your naked body.

    69. Re: US Legal system by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 2

      "Do you want the judge to the gatekeeper to who is allowed to file and what they can file?"

      When a plaintiff has just lost a small-claims case and then immediately turns around and files vague motions on an out-of-state defendant for huge amounts of damages, I think a judge should have the right to laugh such crap right out of his courtroom. Civil-court judges, after all, have the right o reduce damages they feel are ridiculous.

      And when a plaintiff has an established record of filing baseless suits, it should be time to file criminal charges. Can we still chuck people into PMITA prison for barratry, or do we have to wait until the right non-establishment candidate comes along?

    70. Re:US Legal system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We have small claims courts as well. That would be the normal course of action for someone who wasn't a legal troll. In some states no lawyers are allowed in small claims courts, in some lawyers are allowed but it is always very limited cost.

      It is always possible to sue for obscene punitive damages in a district court instead though. Normally you won't win. The problem is that simply serving someone and putting them at a huge risk of losing a case by missing a deadline presents an undue burden. Once you are served you already lost. You lose your time, you lose an expectation value of the case that is non zero, you have to decide how to handle legal representation. This is a form of harassment, intimidation and blackmail that is extremely difficult to combat without shutting down access to the civil court system. I think there need to be criminal cases brought against the more egregious offenders, I don't see another way to stop this.

    71. Re:US Legal system by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      Snowden told the truth and has to run around the world lest he be drowned in McDonalds coffee. This reaction to truth of yours, at least, is not surprising.

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
    72. Re:US Legal system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why would you sue for a $500 loss? Isn't there some kind of tribunal, arbitration or consumer rights body to handle such a tiny amount?

      For free?

    73. Re:US Legal system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep. It's shame that most people in the UK don't know about small claims court.

      The SCC system exists to help people, WHO ARE NOT LAWYERS AND DO NOT HAVE LAWYERS, use the legal system to make small claims.

      It works really well - and most people don't know about it.

    74. Re:US Legal system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bullshit. It costs anything from 50 to 250€ in fees to sue someone pretty much everywhere in the civilized world. You don't actually need a lawyer to do that.
      Nor do you need a lawyer to defend yourself. The American legal system is in no way superior to any other legal systems.

    75. Re:US Legal system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      She have to leave US and go to any European Country.

    76. Re:US Legal system by lars_stefan_axelsson · · Score: 2

      In countries where the loser pays the legal fees, the person with more money is never taken to court because suing will bankrupt the little guy if he loses. I'm not going to sue for my $500 loss if I have a 10% chance of losing and he'll spend 30k defending himself. Loser pays means that poor and middle class can't seek justice at all.

      Of course not. That would be stupid. And we're not stupid. First for a $500 loss (that the courts don't want to deal with, thank you very much, that's what insurance companies are for if it's that type of matter), there is a simplified "small claims" court proceedings, where costs are much less, and you pay your own lawyer if you want/need one.

      For larger cases it's indeed loser pays, but there are set fees and a reasonableness standard. So you can't really "outspend" your opponent and hope to claim all that cost. That would again be unreasonable. But cases don't get that big in general, as there are no punitive damages. If you commit a crime you should be in prison, or you're fined by the state. Civil court is for recovering loss and compensation, not for winning windfalls. (This of course keeps down the number and size of cases).

      Now, if you're the little guy against a big corporation then? Well, that's what the special courts and the "ombudsman" is for. If I have a $500 beef with a company as a customer, then there's a special industry "court" that sits and makes recommendations (that most companies follow) on just the paperwork sent in. If it's a more systematic violation then the consumer "ombudsman" will bring a suit on your behalf (i.e. the state does), and the ombudsman can also through the consumer department of the government levy fines (i.e. "Shape up or pay the fine").

      Same goes for renters court (though that's a real court) and for e.g. insurance problems. All this sums up to a system where the average citizen has never seen the inside of a court room, or even know of someone who has. Even traffic accidents are settled between the insurance companies, as they understand that if they involve a court that only feeds the lawyers, for no real benefit to anybody else. And if you have a problem with the insurance company there's all the consumer rights above that you can avail yourself of before you even have to contemplate court.

      Also, as part of e.g. home owners insurance you're covered for lawyers costs and verdict (up to a fairly large sum) in case you're sued, or need to be sued. Since most people will never use it, it's fairly cheap insurance.

      This above is true for Sweden, there are similar systems in place in other places.

      --
      Stefan Axelsson
    77. Re:US Legal system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Before blaming the obvious victim here, it should be noted that even attorneys will falsely claim to have notified the other parties in a case at times. The legal notification process is typically called "service" in the USA, and I have personal experience here. If the particular court system does not require certified mail, etc for the service of documents (many don't, and allow simple FCM, or First Class Mail), then 'service' is an "honor system" that can be abused for personal gain. It sounds like that may have happened here, given the other party's history of litigious abuse.

    78. Re:US Legal system by bankman · · Score: 1

      What's preventing the rich dude from paying a lawyer $5k over that $500 case?

      Legal fees in Germany are based on the "Gerichtskostengesetz", a law that regulates the courts' official fees, and the "Gesetz ueber die Verguetung der Rechtsanwaeltinnen und Rechtsanwaelte", a law that regulates lawyers' fees. In cases where the losing party is ordered to pay the other side's fees, the winning party just receives a claim against the loser and remains the official debtor. So bankrupting the losing side won't help the party at all regarding legal fees. Everything one spends on lawyers above the official fees can not be reclaimed afaik.

      --
      I feel so sig.
    79. Re:US Legal system by Coisiche · · Score: 2

      the Uk Government keeps a public list of these people

      An easily accessible public list.

    80. Re:US Legal system by dunkelfalke · · Score: 4, Informative

      What's preventing the rich dude from paying a lawyer $5k over that $500 case?

      Nothing, but the rich dude will only have the statutory fees reimbursed in the case he wins the lawsuit. The lawyer fees are specified by the law on remuneration of attorneys, so if you want to pay more than that, it will make your lawyer happy, but won't matter in the court.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    81. Re:US Legal system by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      In the UK, you can buy insurance to cover against this kind of problem, with rates that depend on what your solicitor thinks are your chances of winning. You pay the premium up front and include it in the damages that you seek. If you win, it's just part of your winnings. If you lose, the insurance pays both sides their costs and refunds the premium. This doesn't help if your solicitor doesn't think that you have a chance of winning, but generally solicitors are over optimistic about your chances, so if your own solicitor thinks that you don't have a case then you probably don't.

      With your example, however, you'd go to the small claims court. The small claims court usually doesn't award costs to either party, and if you're suing someone who has that much money then it's probably cheaper for them not to bother showing up and to just pay whatever the court awards. You generally represent yourself in small claims (magistrates tend not to look to favourably on excess legalese in these cases), so the cost to you is a few hours of your time to turn up.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    82. Re:US Legal system by avgapon · · Score: 0

      FWIW, in New Jersey it works approximately the same.

    83. Re:US Legal system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think some places have a rule that loser pays the lesser of the two costs to the winner. That way, you sue for $500, and pay $1000 in your costs, you're only liable to pay $1000 in costs to the other guy if you lose, even if he spent 30k. However, in this case if you win you get your $500 plus your $1000 in costs.

    84. Re:US Legal system by Gussington · · Score: 1

      It works differently in pretty much every other country.
      eg In my country for example, any claim under $5k is settled in a lawyer-free small claims court (similar to Judge Judy). In fact Judge Judy is American, so it doesn't even work like that in all US states. No-one has ever been made bankrupt in such a court.

    85. Re:US Legal system by Gussington · · Score: 1

      I'm not going to sue for my $500 loss if I have a 10% chance of losing and he'll spend 30k defending himself. Loser pays means that poor and middle class can't seek justice at all.

      Not sure where it works like this, but I've lived in a few countries (none of them USA), and all of them had a concept of a small claims court. ie for claims under a certain figure (usually $3-5k) are lawyer-free, resolved by a local 'court' with just the plaintiff, the defendant and an adjudicator, for a fee of around $50.
      So yeah, poor people can have justice too.

    86. Re:US Legal system by fgouget · · Score: 1

      The USAToday article is very biased. The defendant mostly screwed himself by losing documents (and then claiming he never received them) and not responding before deadlines.

      Your comment seems pretty biased. Or do you have any proof that the defendant did receive the documents and then lied about never receiving them? If you don't have proof then isn't your comment libel?

      I find it pretty strange that the article never mentions any proof that the defendant received the documents, like a mail receipt acknowledgement or proof of delivery by some sworn-in court agent.

    87. Re:US Legal system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That doesn't explain why the courts of this particular area kept allowing an obvious legal troll to keep filing follow-ons to a case that he lost at the outset. This Zavodnick character must know dirt about some judge's family to get preferential access to the legal system.

      The plaintiff in this case is well known to the local courts -- it is, however, extremely difficult to terminate a serial plaintiff's access to the courts. There is essentially no standard method to prevent the access. The Supreme Court (of the state of Indiana) would have to order that this plaintiff be denied filings. The Indiana Constitution has strong protections mandating open government (whether those are followed is in practice, of course, a different matter).

      From one perspective, unfettered access is a good thing. We don't want a system where the courts simply ignore a plaintiff. It is quite possible that he has a valid claim among his cases. If we had a corrupt system, you can envision that one of the standard methods of control would be to deny someone's access to courts. On the flip side, things like this happen, and both the court system and the defendants suffer.

    88. Re:US Legal system by dave420 · · Score: 1

      Your claim about the superiority of the US legal system is completely unfounded - can you cite some sources agreeing with you? Preferably objective comparisons...

    89. Re:US Legal system by jabuzz · · Score: 1

      That's because in the UK you can only sue for actual losses in copyright infringement providing that the person doing the infringement was not doing it for commercial gain.

      Hence the most you can sue for is the cost of the CD/DVD/BlueRay disc(s) which makes it not worth the effort.

    90. Re:US Legal system by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      That's because in the UK you can only sue for actual losses in copyright infringement

      Yes.

      Hence the most you can sue for is the cost of the CD/DVD/BlueRay disc(s) which makes it not worth the effort.

      No. If you're redistributing, there is a reasonable argument that the copies you're creating could be lost sales.

      However, in theory at least, you do have to come up with a reasonable argument for how much the infringement actually cost, not just some hypothetical number. As you say, there's also no provision for additional punitive damages.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    91. Re:US Legal system by silviuc · · Score: 1

      Yes. In some countries, people that claim a X sum as damages have to pay a certain percentage of X as tax before the trial even starts. If they win, they get their claimed damages + court costs (which can and should include whatever they paid as tax) from the losing party.

    92. Re:US Legal system by F.Ultra · · Score: 1

      That is only if you truly believe that the other party would bet $30000 on a 10% of winning. And to be honest I have heard of very very few such cases over here, now the loser pays is of course not the only difference towards to US system so other factors might make a play in that as well.

    93. Re:US Legal system by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      . So bankrupting the losing side won't help the party at all regarding legal fees. Everything one spends on lawyers above the official fees can not be reclaimed afaik.

      Reasonable, and if 'loser pays' is implemented in the USA it should be based on 'reasonable fees' as well, IE average lawyer pay and time. So you can't just hire the most expensive law firm or have them work 5x the expected hours on a case in order to win it, then expect to recover every cent.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    94. Re:US Legal system by djinn6 · · Score: 1

      This is a problem brought on by bad traffic laws. A speeding ticket can cost you between $200 and $500 upfront, then insurance premium increases by another $150 a year. If this is not the first ticket, you can also lose your license, which in most parts of the country means you can't get to work anymore.

      Since the safety crowd has turned traffic tickets into something that could ruin lives, of course people are fighting it in court.

    95. Re:US Legal system by Reziac · · Score: 1

      Since anyone can sue anyone for any or no reason, it occurs to me that this is a fine opportunity for a hungry young attorney willing to work on commission ... tho I expect if a judgment went against this vexatiously litigious fellow of TFA, the next thing we'd discover is that all his money had magically disappeared to another country.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    96. Re:US Legal system by 0xG · · Score: 1

      IANAL ...and neither are you.

      --
      A pox on web designers who feel that window.innerWidth == screen.availWidth
    97. Re:US Legal system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not really... since it's up to the court to decide if the claims for court-costs are reasonable.. If not they can deny the claim.

      Ie, on a case where they claim $30k for something that cost them $75 that would be thrown out... if they claim $100 in court costs for a case around $75 they would not grant those $100 but $75 or so..
      Of course there are exceptions, but those will have to be proven by the claiming party...

      This is mainly for criminal cases.. For civil cases both parties pay their own costs, but you can then file a seperate case for a refunt of the court-costs if you won the first case.

      That's my understanding of the Swedish system atleast.

       

    98. Re:US Legal system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You could have a system where the court orders a 3'rd party to review the claims and see if they are valid.. If they are not valid not the plaintiff would have to pay for the cost of the 3'rd party reviewer... Of course only for people like the the one mentioned in the article.

    99. Re:US Legal system by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      So, a lawsuit over $30,000 in damages would go to small claims court?

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    100. Re:US Legal system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      speaking as someone who lives in a country where loser pays the legal fees;

      you are talking out of your arse (ass to you weird people who think part of your body is a donkey)

    101. Re:US Legal system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In some countries if you tell a judge you want 30K in damages over a 40 dollar/euro printer, the judge will laugh in your face for a few minutes and then advise you to consider mental health treatment. And that would be considered adequate and professional conduct by the judge.

    102. Re:US Legal system by AuMatar · · Score: 1

      How else would you get your money back? The only way to take someone to court is to sue them. There is small claims court in the US which has a maximum amount (differing by state). But even then it can cost- lets say you're suing Comcast, because they suck. Comcast isn't a person. THey have to hire a lawyer, either on payroll or off. So there's still cost involved.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    103. Re:US Legal system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes in Sweden any claim below about 4000 USD is settled (well in most cases, it wouldn't be law if there wasn't exceptions) by laymen standing infront of a judge.

      So in this case, the seller and buyer would stand in a court with just a judge. No lawyer fees. Only cost is that of time to show in court (probably only once since this was about a faulty printer).

    104. Re:US Legal system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Solution:

      Tell her to tell her friends to quit making up stories on the internet. You err.. she I mean... will find this problem disappears when her friends quit making it up.

    105. Re:US Legal system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Until you lose. That would mean there would be a 10% chance of coming out of the case $60,000 in debt, and losing, and all the time spent.

    106. Re:US Legal system by alexgieg · · Score: 1

      Idiot.

      --
      Conservatism: (n.) love of the existing evils. Liberalism: (n.) desire to substitute new evils for the existing ones.
  3. Shipping? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    So, you left a paper trail... Craigslist sales should always be in person, cash, and otherwise as anonymous as possible. Use a separate gmail account, fake name, protect yourself.

    1. Re:Shipping? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Nah, that's a good way to get shot and robbed. The best solution is to not use Craigslist. Unless you're looking to shoot and rob someone that is, then go hog wild.

    2. Re:Shipping? by OrangeTide · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think I'd rather get robbed than lose $12k-$30k in court. You don't have to shoot me, I'll give up everything I am carrying with me.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    3. Re:Shipping? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I said be as anonymous as possible.. not meet in a dark alley. Meet right in front of a busy shopping center with dozens if not hundreds of people walking around. Doesn't mean you tell the person your real name and address.

    4. Re:Shipping? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1) Don't carry anything of value on you except the item you are selling and a can of pepper spray.
      2) Meet in a public location, like a cafe. You could even meet in front of a police station since the cops aren't going to have your address or phone number either, you can't be easily tracked back and they aren't going to waste their time with an investigation over a low dollar amount consumer goods sale.
      3) Before meeting, ask the person what they will be wearing. Scope the place out before bringing out the goods for sale. If you don't see anyone matching the description, leave. If the person matching the description looks sketchy, leave.

    5. Re:Shipping? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      what kind of hell hole do you live in?

    6. Re:Shipping? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

      The US.

    7. Re:Shipping? by Kielistic · · Score: 1

      I'm sure Tim Bosma felt the same way.

    8. Re:Shipping? by TheCarp · · Score: 3, Interesting

      actually, I had lots of great experiences with craigslist; we used it almost exclusively for finding roomates. I had a couple of issues with scammers who delayed me by a day or two, and the usual issue of occasional bad roomates, but nothing worst than you find anywhere.

      It is hillariously shady sometimes, or at least, people think it is.

      I found some random crap in my basement left by a long departed (evicted, deadbeat) roomate and realized I could get $50 for a turntable he left behind. So I look it up to figure a price and put it up on craigslist. I based it on model numbers and ebay postings, and knocked a few bucks off based on other posts due to missing needles (I found those much later). Well maybe the price was low because the guy who called about it was a bit sketchy about it being stolen.

      They came over, they bought it, they still were all nervous. As we wrap up a buddy of mine calls, we were heading out to lunch, so I walk out with them...and he rolls up.... 50 years old, perfect silver hair, dark sunglasses, and the blackest Ford LTD obvious former police cruiser you ever saw.

      They looked at me and their eyes went wide "who is that", I just smiled, said "Just a friend of mine, don't worry about it" and walked over to the car. Lol let them have their fantasy if they want. They don't need to know they just watched two IT nerds who work from home occasionally heading off to get subs and bitch about work.

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    9. Re:Shipping? by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      You need to lay off the 80s action movies. Manhattan is not a maximum security prison.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    10. Re:Shipping? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      wat

    11. Re:Shipping? by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Yeah, no kidding. I've done countless transactions on Craigslist over the years and never had any problems, except for one wacky buyer of a washing machine who changed her mind after I delivered it, and one or two instances where they tried to change the price after arriving (they were foreigners most likely from a culture where this is common), but certainly nothing involving the danger of violence.

    12. Re:Shipping? by TheCarp · · Score: 1

      tldr; craigslist isn't all that shady; also, if you have the wrong impression and I think it will be fun to leave you with it; I will likely encourage your fantasy.

      Seriously, these guys looked like they just saw some shit out of a movie, it was kinda hilarious.

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    13. Re:Shipping? by reboot246 · · Score: 1

      Or be like me. I'm usually the biggest, meanest person on the scene and I'm certainly the best armed. So if you're looking to rob me, go ahead and try.

    14. Re:Shipping? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How big is your penis?

    15. Re:Shipping? by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      the vast majority of robberies don't go down with kidnap/murder.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    16. Re:Shipping? by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 1

      and one or two instances where they tried to change the price after arriving

      I've had that happen, and I HATE IT. Hate the SHIT out of it. You're trying to screw me around after we AGREED on a price? Fuck that shit.

      But I don't say a word, arguing with these fuckin' losers is pointless. I say, "Hang on a sec", then I get back in my car and drive off. A couple of times they started shouting "wait wait, we'll pay the full price", but fuck 'em, I ain't got time for that shit.

      Let that be a lesson to them, you say you'll pay "X", better fucking show up with "X" in your hand. I always meet near (but not at) my home, so they'll have a longer drive back home than I will, guaranteed. And I always, always come armed. You wanna rob me for phone or whatever? Good luck with that, I hope you're bulletproof.

      --
      Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
    17. Re:Shipping? by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      When it happened to me, they were meeting me at my home, so I could only tell them "no". But yeah, it's annoying as hell.

      But it's not something that's happened a lot, out of all the Craigslist transactions I've had, only twice I think. Honestly, the success rate I've had with CL has been extremely high overall. I've managed to unload a bunch of used stuff (like furniture mainly) and get good cash for it, and I've gotten a lot of great deals on other stuff. Worrying about being robbed just seems like a bunch of paranoia to me. It probably is a good idea to bring a friend though, just in case.

    18. Re:Shipping? by bensch128 · · Score: 1

      craigslist isn't all that shady; also, if you have the wrong impression and I think it will be fun to leave you with it; I will likely encourage your fantasy.

      CL is usually fine except for the times that the people selling the item didn't actually acquire them legally.
      I went to the sellers place to buy an expensive projector, bought the projector at the agreed on price (and it worked) and then I realized afterwards that there was NO furniture in the apartment and it looked like he had just arrived there right before me.

      I didn't get ripped off but the ethics of the situation did bother me afterwards....

    19. Re:Shipping? by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 1

      Honestly, the success rate I've had with CL has been extremely high overall.

      Same here, I'd say out of 100 transactions maybe 2 or 3 didn't work out. Overall it can be a great way to buy and sell stuff.

      -

      Worrying about being robbed just seems like a bunch of paranoia to me.

      That's what people who've never been robbed say. :)

      Truthfully, I don't "worry about it" and I don't expect it to happen, but I do like to be prepared. No different than having a fire extinguisher or first-aid kit in your house. I don't necessarily think a fire is going to break out at any moment, but if something does catch fire it seems only prudent to have a way to try and put it out.

      --
      Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
    20. Re:Shipping? by TheCarp · · Score: 1

      You know, I never considered that. With the prevalence of empty houses around the country, that is probably a far more common tactic for selling illegal goods than it otherwise would be.

      --
      "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
    21. Re:Shipping? by Harald+Paulsen · · Score: 1

      and one or two instances where they tried to change the price after arriving

      I've had that happen, and I HATE IT. Hate the SHIT out of it. You're trying to screw me around after we AGREED on a price? Fuck that shit.

      Next time it happens, demand more.

      If you agreed upon $100, and they offer $80, deny it and say the price has now went up to $120.

      --
      Harald
    22. Re:Shipping? by Harald+Paulsen · · Score: 1

      I've been the seller in a situation like this.

      I was moving and there was a bunch of stuff that I didn't want to bring to the new apartment so everything that I didn't move with me I listed online. So if a buyer wanted to buy, say, my old washing machine, I would have to go meet them at the old apartment, which was more or less empty except for the few items not sold yet.

      --
      Harald
  4. Hmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    >Zavodnik, a native of Ukraine who moved to the United States in 1987 under a grant of political asylum

    Send this pussy back. Get him drafted and sent to a meatgrinder in Debaltsev

    1. Re:Hmmm by St.Creed · · Score: 4, Insightful

      He's supported and part of a whole crowd of citizens that like fleecing people by abusing the law. Why don't you advocate changing the horrible system that allows this shit in the first place? Sending one of them away isn't going to change a thing.

      --
      Therefore, by the (faulty) logic you're using, you're just a cow with a keyboard - osu-neko (2604)
    2. Re:Hmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Makes me wish i was John Wick. I'd go waste this dude in the most horrific manner possible and leave a note saying - because he did "X"

    3. Re:Hmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because it (fraud) is already illegal, and it's not stopping him.

    4. Re:Hmmm by jon3k · · Score: 1

      Why not both? Pinning all your hopes on building some utopian system without loopholes seems pretty unreasonable, too.

    5. Re:Hmmm by CeasedCaring · · Score: 3, Interesting

      He's what the Judicial system calls a "Vexatious Litigant".
      Sadly, in the US, this is only illegal under California law
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    6. Re:Hmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There are already rules against what the guy is doing. "Tort reform" as touted by most people will simply shield the rich and powerful and corporations from ever having to face liability.

    7. Re:Hmmm by wierd_w · · Score: 1

      But a good chunk of the legal experts in the country INSIST that tort reform isnt necessary!

    8. Re:Hmmm by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      Yes there are rules, but the vary state to state, and thus it can get to be very expensive even to get to the point where you can smash the abusive litigant. Perhaps if there massive fines and jail time for abuse of the courts, it might make a difference, but in most cases, all that happens is the litigant has to get a judge's approval before starting a lawsuit, and there are 49 other states in which the litigant can pursue these vexatious suits. In other words, a determined vexatious litigant can get away with a shitload of bad lawsuits before he can finally be stopped.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    9. Re:Hmmm by ewibble · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Not being able to sue over someone outside of small claims court for a $40 printer is not a Utopian society it is plain common sense.

      Deporting what I assume are citizens, over a what is essentially a minor dispute, no one was killed, or hurt in the matter. Is essentially the same type insane overreaction that causes a $40 dispute to escalate to a $30K court case. If someone just keeps suing give them a warning or two that if they continue to do so they will be band from filing any further legal action.

      This is not the fault of Zavodnik, it is the fault of the legal system that allowed it in the first place. Any sane judge should have just awarded one of them $40, any sane court of appeal should just have told the person who filed the appeal, stop wasting our time, and charged them a couple of hundred dollars in admin fees.

      There no need for utopia here.

    10. Re:Hmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Tort reform is brought up as a way to reduce insurance costs mostly related to medical malpractice. Except we have had tort reform in states such as Texas and California, and malpractice rates have not gone down.

    11. Re:Hmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He's what the Judicial system calls a "Vexatious Litigant".

      Sadly, in the US, this is only illegal under California law

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      You're inferring that from a Wikipedia article that just happens to only list California's definition?

      Um...that's really inferior reasoning.

      In reality, many other, if not all, states, do have their own rules for such determinations, and that Wikipedia article is simply not meant to be exhaustive as it stands.

    12. Re:Hmmm by Khyber · · Score: 1

      Did you even bother reading your own link?

      "Has previously been declared to be a vexatious litigant by any state or federal court of record in any action or proceeding based upon the same or substantially similar facts, transaction, or occurrence."

      That clearly means that other states besides California have vexatious litigant laws. Example, Texas Chapter 11 handles determining if a plaintiff is a Vexatious Litigant.

      QUIT USING SHIT WIKIPEDIA AS A SOURCE.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    13. Re:Hmmm by Khyber · · Score: 1

      Pardon, that should be Texas Title 2 Chapter 11.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    14. Re:Hmmm by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      I compare lawsuits to online PvP gaming. If you win, it's because you were right and superior. If you lose, it's because the other side was abusive and cheated. The largest groups calling for tort reforms are not average citizens but large corporations upset that they occasionally lose. They see what happened to tobacco companies and don't want that to happen again. They have enough money that they try to sway voters by bringing up red herring cases, like the McDonald's coffee case (which was not an abuse of the system, but sounds like it if you leave out all the important details). Some extreme mailing lists have a "crazy lawsuit of the week" to try and convince people that the legal system is out of control, when what really happens is that someone is only filing a suit which will likely never see the light of day. If a law gets passed to disallow crazy lawsuits to be filed then that would essentially stop lawsuits by citizens altogether.

    15. Re:Hmmm by Skuld-Chan · · Score: 1

      The crazy thing is in small claims it was determined the guy threw the printer out - so the court couldn't actually verify it wasn't working.

    16. Re:Hmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is not john wick style. He just shoots you in the head. No pain, no why, just dead.

    17. Re: Hmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree. This ukrainskiy suka (ukrainian bitch) needs to be shipped back. Ukraine is now in the pocket of the west, he does not need any protection from Ukraine anymore. Let him live on the streets of Kiev and beg for his daily borscht.

    18. Re:Hmmm by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 1

      This is not the fault of Zavodnik,

      It most certainly is.

      it is the fault of the legal system that allowed it in the first place. Any sane judge should have just awarded one of them $40,

      Actually, the small claims court dismissed the case because it appears that Zavodnik got rid of the printer in an attempt to destroy evidence. (That's what the superior court ruling says.)

      any sane court of appeal should just have told the person who filed the appeal, stop wasting our time, and charged them a couple of hundred dollars in admin fees.

      There was a minor procedural flaw that allowed the dismissal to be appealed and reinstated. When that happened, Zavodnik forced a number of judges to recuse themselves from the case after accusing them repeatedly of doing things like conspiring with the defendant. It's perhaps not surprising that he eventually found one willing to listen if for nothing else than to get the damn thing over with.

      This is most certainly primarily the fault of Zavodnik, who repeatedly abused the court system in all sorts of ways. Obviously he should have had the right to sue someone for $40 in small claims court, but he basically tried every random loophole he could to tie things up for as long as possible in the courts, including forcing it to act in ways that were less efficient in hopes of keeping his case alive.

      Many of the things he exploited are actually important loopholes in our system that prevent various abuses -- like actual overzealous or corrupt judges. Getting rid of those processes would likely be bad for everyone. But Zavodnik used them instead to further a fruitless cause after he seems to have destroyed the only evidence that would have even allowed him to recover his $40.

      Admittedly, someone should have put a stop to all of this sooner -- and the court system did try. They were only constrained by the lunacy of the plaintiff in doing things that no actual attorney would ever try (if an attorney did this sort of crap multiple times, they would be sanctioned and perhaps eventually disbarred).

    19. Re:Hmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is that he sued for "breach of contract" and "emotional distress". Imagine that you buy small "fireproof safe" in which you put a document worth $30K. For the sake of argument, the safe costs $40 (I realise that's an unreasonable amount of money, but bear with me). You are worried about your document so you contact the safe company and describe the situation in detail. They say, "It's absolutely no problem. We have tested it in those situations. It will definitely protect your $30K document." Unfortunately you have a fire and subsequently discover that the safe is not fireproof at all. It's just a big scam. You go to small claims court and receive your $40 compensation for having bought a faulty safe.

      Well, that sucks of course. We'd like to be able to sue for $30K because that was our actual loss. The company knew about the situation and promised that the safe would work. Possibly they are liable for the larger sum. So we sue based on the guarantee given to us by the company.

      Now the problem with this suit is that the lawsuit was baseless. Unfortunately there is apparently an obscure law that says that if you send the defendant a letter saying, "You agree that you are at fault and you owe me $30K", then the defendant has 30 days to respond or else they admit the fault and are liable for the award. What the LB (litigious bastard) did was recognise that if he trolls Craig's List he can fairly cheaply sue people and send them these notices. A fair percentage of them will be unaware of the consequences of throwing the ridiculous sounding mails in the garbage.

      The real problem is that the judge has his/her hands tied. They have to uphold the law even if they disagree with it (which it seems the judge did). This law needs fixing. But laws are the domain of lawyers and generally lawyers see nothing wrong with making a living by finding advantageous interpretations of the law (as you might imagine). Trying to fix these things is hard, so be careful. If you are sued, go to a lawyer.

    20. Re:Hmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "essentially a minor dispute"

      Willfully abusing the legal system is not a minor dispute. Nor is $30K a minor amount of currency.

      "This is not the fault of Zavodnik"

      The fact that a loophole exists does not relieve a citizen of the responsibility of not exploiting it. In the same manner, the fact that a bad precedent exists does not excuse the judicial system from fixing it. Obviously the source of the problem is bad laws to begin with, so I contend that the fault is shared between Zavodnik, the judge, and the lawmakers.

    21. Re:Hmmm by fgouget · · Score: 1

      The current case is no longer about the printer. It's about the defendant allegedly corrupting the small claims court. That's a serious accusation which should not be treated as a small courts case. It's as if the printer case was a means to an end: suing in this other court either to have forum for the plaintiff to expose his conspiracy theories, or to properly fleece the hapless defendant.

    22. Re:Hmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is not the fault of Zavodnik, it is the fault of the legal system that allowed it in the first place.

      WRONG, asshole.

      Simply because something is *legal* does not mean it's justified or right. That's exactly what Ethics are about. It's generally legal in the US to cheat on your spouse -- and being cheated on is something that causes worse emotional/mental trauma than RAPE. Should everyone cheat on their spouses simply because its legal? Should they excuse their evil behavior by saying "Well, the law says its ok, so I went and did it."

      No no no no no. Zavodnik is a crook. He's a fucking thief. Not legally, but ethically.

    23. Re:Hmmm by Coren22 · · Score: 1

      What if the tables were reversed and that $40 printer burned down your house? Is it unreasonable to allow court to assess damages that are related to the actual damages?

      As I know very little about this case since I wasn't in the courtroom, I can't say if the damages were related to anything actually real, but in the case it was, would you rather the damaged party was limited to the cost of the printer?

      --
      APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
    24. Re:Hmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Like how APK burnt you down 3 times for all /. to see that you're a technically weak fool and liar Coren22 https://slashdot.org/comments.... , http://slashdot.org/comments.p... , https://slashdot.org/comments.... ? You did that to yourself. We get to laugh at you for it!

    25. Re:Hmmm by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      Not being able to sue over someone outside of small claims court for a $40 printer is not a Utopian society it is plain common sense.

      Deporting what I assume are citizens, over a what is essentially a minor dispute, no one was killed, or hurt in the matter. Is essentially the same type insane overreaction that causes a $40 dispute to escalate to a $30K court case. If someone just keeps suing give them a warning or two that if they continue to do so they will be band from filing any further legal action.

      This is not the fault of Zavodnik, it is the fault of the legal system that allowed it in the first place. Any sane judge should have just awarded one of them $40, any sane court of appeal should just have told the person who filed the appeal, stop wasting our time, and charged them a couple of hundred dollars in admin fees.

      There no need for utopia here.

      This is why in most countries, the lose pays the winner's costs. Supposedly, the each guy pays his own system was set up so that Brits who had lost property during the Revolution would be discouraged from trying to get it back.

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
    26. Re:Hmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Typical response of it's not his/her/their/our fault. It is his fault, he knows what he is doing and taking advantage. Whether the system is broken or not, people need to take responsibility.

    27. Re:Hmmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are confusing legality with ethics. What Zavodnik did is ethically wrong, and he caused another person great distress and mental anguish, with no reason at all.

  5. Famous Quote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Don't smoke crack, it's a ghetto drug" - Jesse Jackson.

    1. Re:Famous Quote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Nobody needs more than 640" - Charles, Prince of Wales

    2. Re:Famous Quote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "There is nothing to fear, but fear itself" - Dwight D. Eisenhower

    3. Re:Famous Quote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "HELP!! I'm trapped in a fortune cookie factory" - Hermes Trismegistus

    4. Re:Famous Quote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "That which is below is like that which is above & that which is above is like that which is below to do the miracles of one only thing"

      -- Bob the Cable Guy

    5. Re:Famous Quote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "As inside, so outside"

    6. Re:Famous Quote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "To get f*cked from behind, you have to bend over!" - a funny guy I know

    7. Re:Famous Quote by GLMDesigns · · Score: 1

      that was FDR

      --
      If you're scared of your govt then you need to further restrict its powers
      Vote 3rd Party in 2016 and beyond
    8. Re:Famous Quote by steak · · Score: 1

      "When it comes to catching trout, nothing beats the German light infantry"
      --Dr. Zoidberg

    9. Re:Famous Quote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Your mother is a cheap New York hooker" -- Winston Churchill

    10. Re:Famous Quote by Rob+Riggs · · Score: 1

      "If you have seen further than others, it is because you have stood on the shoulders of giants." - They Might Be Giants

      --
      the growth in cynicism and rebellion has not been without cause
    11. Re:Famous Quote by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      "That bastard stole my quote!" -- FDR

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    12. Re:Famous Quote by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

      Don't believe everything you read on the internet - Abraham Lincoln

      --
      Wanna buy a shirt?
      https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
  6. America is broken by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is why.

    1. Re:America is broken by known_coward_69 · · Score: 2, Informative

      because of this one person? when i was in italy in the 90's you needed to bribe people to get home phone service, gasoline was like $8 a gallon, half the country shuts down in july and the other half in august, medicine was straight out of a history book, etc italy is clearly broken

    2. Re:America is broken by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I love when people rebut a point by bringing up information that is completely off topic and irrelevant.

      by your logic america can only be broken when every other country in the world is better off?

    3. Re:America is broken by sjames · · Score: 1

      But it wasn't just one person. It was an entire court system that wasn't able to say enough is enough before the sale of a $40 printer cost $12,000 dollars. That even though the plaintiff had already thrown away the only evidence that the printer didn't work AND was well known by the court for filing frivolous lawsuits..

      As for medicine, in the U.S. you'll pay a lot of specialist fees but not get anything that couldn't have been done just as well by a nurse with a flip book.

    4. Re:America is broken by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No what he's saying is, by what metric is America broken? How do you determine when something is "broken". What does that even mean? If this one thing means America is broken then every country is broken. If every country is broken is any country broken?

    5. Re:America is broken by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      You are trying to hold America to some undisclosed standard and then you whine when people try to reverse engineer that standard and apply it equally to others.

      This is the Internet. The net is so wide here that you are literally quite likely to find a man that has bitten a dog.

      You are confusing extremes with the norm.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    6. Re:America is broken by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If every country is broken is any country broken?

      That's like saying "if all cars are broken, then no cars are broken". No, the fact that all cars are broken does not magically transform all cars into a non-broken state.

    7. Re:America is broken by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      > As for medicine, in the U.S. you'll pay a lot of specialist fees but not get anything that couldn't have been done just as well by a nurse with a flip book.

      What kind of flowers do you want at your funeral?

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    8. Re:America is broken by Quirkz · · Score: 1

      This is the Internet. The net is so wide here that you are literally quite likely to find a man that has bitten a dog.

      I bit my cat once. Not hard, just applying firm pressure with my teeth to the back of his neck. I was holding him, and he was biting me, and it seemed the best way to get the point across. I got a mouthful of slightly dusty fur, but he understood.

    9. Re:America is broken by Psion · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This is the Internet. The net is so wide here that you are literally quite likely to find a man that has bitten a dog.

      Off-topic, but since you brought it up ...

      I was four years old. My parents had an overly exuberant keeshond that delighted in nipping at me. It is possible the malevolent hound was only being playful and socializing, but to me it was behaving more like a competitive, overbearing sibling. For example, it never nipped at me when an adult was around. One winter day, after we were all outside in the snow, my mom went upstairs and this treacherous canine knocked me down from behind and nipped at my ears "playfully". Still in my one-piece snowsuit and wearing mittens, I'd had enough of this cantankerous pupstart's behavior, and I demonstrated the evolutionary advantages of an opposable thumb by grabbing his snout with both mittened hands, and finishing with a powerful argument delivered by human incisors directly upon his loathsome, black, wet nose!

      Naturally, the little bitch shrieked and whined theatrically over the comeuppance, but I stood over him triumphant. "How do you like it?!"

    10. Re:America is broken by _UnderTow_ · · Score: 2

      My sister was bitten by a moose once ...

    11. Re:America is broken by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      America: we're not as bad as Italy!

      Maybe Hillary can adopt that slogan.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    12. Re:America is broken by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mynd you, moose bites Kan be pretti nasti...

  7. Small Claims Court? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Small Claims Court limits their damage to $10,000 I believe.
    Even then, there are still limitations and rules.

    How does a $40 item exceed the small claim courts maximum amount?

    This whole lawsuit seems fraudulent from the start.

    1. Re:Small Claims Court? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      It doesn't. His cased was dismissed from small claims, because he threw out the evidence (printer). He refiled in Superior Court with a bunch of new complaints. He didn't sue for $30,000, what he did was send a Request for Admission to the opponent requesting he admit to owing the 30,000 or the 300,000 or the 600,000. Marion County has a rule that if you don't respond to a Request for Admission in 30 days then you are presumed to have admitted the fact at issue. That was the plaintiff's game here. Send a bunch of requests and hope they don't respond.

    2. Re:Small Claims Court? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      SMALL claims court? In America? You jest surely.

    3. Re:Small Claims Court? by macs4all · · Score: 1

      It doesn't. His cased was dismissed from small claims, because he threw out the evidence (printer). He refiled in Superior Court with a bunch of new complaints. He didn't sue for $30,000, what he did was send a Request for Admission to the opponent requesting he admit to owing the 30,000 or the 300,000 or the 600,000. Marion County has a rule that if you don't respond to a Request for Admission in 30 days then you are presumed to have admitted the fact at issue. That was the plaintiff's game here. Send a bunch of requests and hope they don't respond.

      Well, then it was the Defendant's tardiness in Responding to the Requests For Admission, and/or NOT doing any Discovery of his own, and/or for NOT filing for Summary Judgment or even a Judgment On The Pleadings, based on the admitted total lack of evidence on the part of the Plaintiff.

      IANAL; but I live in Marion County, and have battled with the Superior and Circuit Courts here pro se on more than one occasion.

    4. Re:Small Claims Court? by MightyMartian · · Score: 2

      Yes, the defendant screwed up a little bit, but any court that allows a plaintiff to play this kind of game is still broken. What you have here is an apparently well known vexatious litigant, and the solution is to remove his ability to file suits or use the court system at all without prior approval.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    5. Re:Small Claims Court? by macs4all · · Score: 1

      Yes, the defendant screwed up a little bit, but any court that allows a plaintiff to play this kind of game is still broken. What you have here is an apparently well known vexatious litigant, and the solution is to remove his ability to file suits or use the court system at all without prior approval.

      Hey, I had a civil case in Marion County thrown out because I was tardy in responding to some Discovery that asked for "Everything". I thought I was being clever in replying that I was still "gathering Everything".

      The judge, unfortunately, had no sense of humor...

      But I still think he should have at least tried a Motion To Dismiss based on the Plaintiff's record of Frivolous and Vexatious Litigation.

      That's one of the reasons why Interrogatories ALWAYS ask you to list ALL Past and Pending Litigation you were involved in. Then you file your Motion To Dismiss, with those Interrogatory Responses as "Exhibit A".

      Can you IMAGINE the Judge's eyebrow when he/she read the list of Prior/Current Litigation in which this yayhoo was involved???

    6. Re:Small Claims Court? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's pretty smart actually! Good for him.

      Captcha: circled

    7. Re:Small Claims Court? by cnaumann · · Score: 1

      Everything Zavodnik did was pretty brilliant. You would not want to play poker with this guy.

      He threw the printer away to make himself seem ridiculous. That was planned. He wanted to look like a crank. What kind of idiot throws away evidence before taking you to small claims court? Then he sends you a weird letter wanting you to admit that you owe him $600,000. What do you do? What would you do if I sent you a registered letter saying that I wanted you to admit to owing me $600,000? You would ignore it like any sane person would...

    8. Re:Small Claims Court? by Skuld-Chan · · Score: 1

      Why would the default be me admitting I owed you 30,000 dollars? I thought debt had a little more of a hurdle than this.

      That sounds like quite a racket - mail these out to everyone - sue everyone who doesn't respond and wait for the sheriff to collect the checks?

    9. Re: Small Claims Court? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      News flash: Global warming isn't real. It's a scam in which scientists and politicians are really complicit to redistribute wealth while pocketing some of the money along the way. Climate models have repeatedly been proven wrong and, in the face of these serious problems, the scientists have doubled down with even more absurdly dire predictions. There is no threat from burning fossil fuels or releasing other greenhouse gases.

    10. Re: Small Claims Court? by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      News flash: You're a fucking idiot inventing conspiracy theories because your either a) a childlike mind incapable of accepting reality or b) a paid shill or c) both.

      AGW is happening. The insurance companies know it. The oil producing nations know it. Every fucking physicist in the last hundred years knows that CO2 absorbs IR and emits it as UV, and that means CO2 traps heat. Now, fucking halfwit, unless you have some magic fucking heat sink that makes trapped heat go back into space, stop trying to deny simple fucking physics. Grow the fuck up. The universe doesn't owe your fucking SUV any fucking favors.

      Fucking moron.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    11. Re:Small Claims Court? by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      It doesn't. His cased was dismissed from small claims, because he threw out the evidence (printer). He refiled in Superior Court with a bunch of new complaints. He didn't sue for $30,000, what he did was send a Request for Admission to the opponent requesting he admit to owing the 30,000 or the 300,000 or the 600,000. Marion County has a rule that if you don't respond to a Request for Admission in 30 days then you are presumed to have admitted the fact at issue. That was the plaintiff's game here. Send a bunch of requests and hope they don't respond.

      Ah, the old default opt in trick, eh.
      Zavodnik should now sue every software company, claiming he has the rights to that technology.

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
  8. We need Loser pays by myth24601 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Loser pays would tamp down on a lot of people who use the process to punish people.

    --
    No matter where you go, there you are.
    1. Re:We need Loser pays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I am not sure loser pays is the solution. I'm shocked that none of these judges has thrown the guy in jail. That would have happened already where I come from (East Coast).

    2. Re:We need Loser pays by jeff4747 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Loser pays would also make it basically impossible to sue any entity that has more money than you. The risk would be far too great, even if you had a legitimate dispute.

      Let the judge award "loser pays" only after meeting a high threshold. Such as in situations where no rational person would consider it a legitimate dispute.

    3. Re:We need Loser pays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It would also discourage little people with limited resources from filing legitimate lawsuits. Who would want to sue a big corp or even a rich guy who screwed them over when they could be liable for hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of legal fees?

    4. Re:We need Loser pays by TWX · · Score: 2

      I'm surprised that someone hasn't bashed-in his skull. Sounds like now that his name is out there, a bunch of people he's victimized may realize and someone may take action.

      Think about it, if he has a lot of victims then it may be difficult to pin it on any one of 'em if no one talks.

      --
      Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
    5. Re:We need Loser pays by mark-t · · Score: 1

      How is there any risk if you have a legitimate case? The only reason a legitimate case would lose is if they didn't have the resources to adequately present their case, and if the loser pays, then this ceases to be an issue.

    6. Re: We need Loser pays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Surprise there:

      Judges in their majority are the same law major leeches with a lot of professional solidarity.

      Remember a federal court justice who acquited his fellow frat member of murdering his own wife?

    7. Re:We need Loser pays by mark-t · · Score: 0

      Presumably, if your case was valid, then you wouldn't actually lose. If you do not believe in the merits of your own case, then obviously you do not sue That's the entire point.

    8. Re:We need Loser pays by 31415926535897 · · Score: 2

      This works in theory, but it would be terrible in practice. Imagine if you had a good reason to sue Microsoft, for instance. They can spend millions defending themselves, and in our justice system, unfortunately, throwing more money at the problem is correlated with winning more. You could have a legitimate claim, they get out of it on a technicality, and now you're on the hook for millions.

      Perhaps we could work something like: loser pays the min of the plaintiff or defendant legal fees to the winner. So in the worst case, you double your legal fees. I think that would also stop crooks like Zavodnik without bankrupting guys like Costello.

    9. Re:We need Loser pays by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 2

      Loser pays would tamp down on a lot of people who use the process to punish people.

      No, it would just ensure that every large corporation would show up with a team of 50 lawyers to every case. Knowing that you could end up paying each one of them $500/ hour if you lose because your lawyer was having a bad day, or the judge made a mistake. Including the amount of time each would be billing for for case prep and such, it would mean financial ruin from most people if they lose.

      Essentially it would be the end of any recourse for people when it comes to large corporations.

    10. Re:We need Loser pays by HornWumpus · · Score: 0

      You all are so cute when you are this young and naive.

      Are you using your grandfather's login? At six digits, you should know better.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    11. Re:We need Loser pays by famebait · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and the enormous sums american corps spend on lawyers is just for fun, not because they think it can affect the outcome.

      --
      sudo ergo sum
    12. Re:We need Loser pays by myth24601 · · Score: 1

      Has it worked that way in other countries with Loser pays?

      --
      No matter where you go, there you are.
    13. Re:We need Loser pays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It would also completely block people with a legit case against wealthy corporations, since they are likely to lose and the costs will permanently impoverish them.

      Victory often goes to the one who can afford the best legal team, after all.

       

    14. Re:We need Loser pays by PRMan · · Score: 5, Interesting

      What we need is loser pays the winner the lowest of the 2 sets of legal fees. Let MegaCorp show up with 50 lawyers. If you have 1, that's all they're getting.

      Double legal fees will be painful for the small guy, but small enough of a risk to give the right people hope if the case is strong enough.

      Likewise, if small guy wins, you collect your legal fees and pay nothing to your lawyer. As it should be. Winning a court case should never be a Pyrrhic victory.

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    15. Re:We need Loser pays by mark-t · · Score: 1, Troll

      The *ONLY* reason to believe that you would lose when you otherwise believe you have a legitimate case against somebody is if you actually doubt the legitimacy of your case in the first place... in which case you do not actually sue, which is the entire point.

    16. Re:We need Loser pays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If you believe a legitimate case guarantees victory, you are hopelessly naive.

      What are you proposing? That someone who wants to sue google take out a multi-million (or multi-billion) dollar loan for a legal team to match the one Google can afford, with nothing but "a legitimate case" backing the loan? No lender in their right mind will make that loan. And even if the loan is made, and the case is legit, there is still a very good chance that the case will lose.

      I respectfully suggest that you practice and cultivate your ability to think things through before you begin your legal career.

    17. Re:We need Loser pays by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      Because this is civil court. The standard is not "beyond a reasonable doubt". It is entirely possible to have a legitimate case and still lose.

      For example, "gay marriage" and wedding cakes. Plaintiff believes that any public business has to serve them. Which is true. Defendant believes that the First Amendment gives them the right to refuse service to people. Which is also true.

      Both believe they have a legitimate case. The intersection of those edge cases will result in a loser, despite both having a legitimate case.

    18. Re:We need Loser pays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Unless Zavodnik has no legal fees which is possible for an abusive litigant. If you look up news articles on him it looks like he files his own lawsuits without an attorney.

    19. Re:We need Loser pays by jordanjay29 · · Score: 1

      And obviously the little guy understands the ins and outs of the legal system to avoid having their meritorious case lost over technical idiosyncrasies or bad precedent?

    20. Re:We need Loser pays by bigpat · · Score: 1

      Loser pays would tamp down on a lot of people who use the process to punish people.

      Make the litigant pay for the person's estimated legal fees up front as they go. An amount could be determined after a hearing which assesses the likelihood of prevailing in court in the next phase of the litigation. Like the process for granting a preliminary or permanent injunction which is based on meeting a certain threshold of likelihood. And then if the person wins they can get their legal fees back. Otherwise you create a perverse incentive to keep the case in court indefinitely if the litigant doesn't have to pay until they eventually lose.

    21. Re:We need Loser pays by pj2541 · · Score: 1

      This solution does nothing to get the dirtbag to stop filing lawsuits. Since he is acting as his own lawyer, his legal fees are $0.00, and that is how much the victim will be awarded.

    22. Re:We need Loser pays by jeffb+(2.718) · · Score: 2

      It's not about the legitimacy of the case. It's about the realization that a large corporation can overwhelm any legal team a typical individual could hire, and that even in a fair system the corporation is risking far less than the individual. (As in, "a tiny percentage of one quarter's profits" against "entire life savings"). There's a big difference between "I'm confident enough to risk 10% of the quarter's legal budget" and "I'm confident enough to risk everything I own".

      My apologies for not posting this in reply to each of the posts where you make this assertion. I don't have a full social-media damage-control team at my disposal.

    23. Re:We need Loser pays by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      How is there any risk if you have a legitimate case?

      Because the rules have certain deadlines and the dude simply keeps sending them until you miss one. Also, you need to be lawyer or otherwise have heard about the rule with the deadline to know of it's importance.

      I'd be suing the guy for court costs simply as a scorched earth defensive measure - I want to be on the fucking list of "don't bother trying to sue this guy, not only is he judgement proof, he'll turn around and press his own court case to simply cost you money".

      It's the same deal as not paying kidnappers. Pay them and you simply paint a bigger target on yourself for kidnappings.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    24. Re:We need Loser pays by bigpat · · Score: 1

      Loser pays would also make it basically impossible to sue any entity that has more money than you. The risk would be far too great, even if you had a legitimate dispute.

      Let the judge award "loser pays" only after meeting a high threshold. Such as in situations where no rational person would consider it a legitimate dispute.

      I agree with making the person suing pay some reasonable legal fees if the case is unlikely to prevail based on an initial hearing. But if the case has enough merit as determined by a preliminary hearing, then this risk should be taken off the table.

    25. Re:We need Loser pays by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 0

      Has it worked that way in other countries with Loser pays?

      I don't know, but that's how it would work in the US. Half, or more, of congress are lawyers to begin with. And to make matters worse, the large corporations practically own all of them. So how do you really believe a law of this nature would end up?

    26. Re:We need Loser pays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can't possibly be this naive, can you?

    27. Re:We need Loser pays by Desler · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and innocent people never get falsely accused and convicted of crimes they didn't commit. Oh wait...

      Pass that shot you're smoking. It must be excellent.

    28. Re:We need Loser pays by Karl+Cocknozzle · · Score: 1

      Loser pays would tamp down on a lot of people who use the process to punish people.

      Loser pays would allow the already-stacked-in-the-favor-of-big-corporations legal system to be be used to punish people more than it already is. For example, loser pays instantly encourages any litigant with deep pockets to delay for years--decades even--to bleed the other party dry. Then, once they give up? Why, they get sued for legal fees.

      Unless your goal is to lock John Q. Public out of the court system to seek redress of his grievances, this idea is unworkable.

      --
      Who did what now?
    29. Re:We need Loser pays by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      Perhaps we could work something like: loser pays the min of the plaintiff or defendant legal fees to the winner. So in the worst case, you double your legal fees. I think that would also stop crooks like Zavodnik without bankrupting guys like Costello.

      As the AC noted, You'd need to have a system that handles people who are representing themselves, because they're often the worst about vexatious litigation.

      As such, I'd say that in the case of self-representation, you have two figures:
      First: The person representing themselves have to track their hours, or at least estimate it. This is multiplied by a standard multiplier - maybe $20/hour for non-lawyers, $100/hour for lawyers.
      Second: The judge estimates how much lawyer time the person representing themselves would need if they had gotten a lawyer, and multiplies that by a standard lawyer hourly fee schedule.

      The self-represented is liable for the higher of the two, and can only recover the lower.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    30. Re:We need Loser pays by Desler · · Score: 1, Troll

      Your posts are momentally stupid. There is a long history of people who have been falsely accused, wrongfully convicted and even wrongfully executed for crimes they didn't commit. Yet you think no one ever loses a legitimate civil case? Your naivete is astounding.

    31. Re:We need Loser pays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The *ONLY* reason to believe that you would lose when you otherwise believe you have a legitimate case against somebody is if you actually doubt the

      skill of your lawyer or the blinding blizzard of bullshit that a multinational corporation can unleash. Actually, with many smaller court judges being elected positions, you might also believe you could lose if the major multinational corporation discovers that your judge is a better candidate than his opponent.

      Justice is supposed to be blind, but she peeks from time to time.

    32. Re:We need Loser pays by Zeroko · · Score: 1

      Perhaps self-representation should be measured based on the larger of how much they would have to pay for representation of similar competence & how much their time would be worth if they were not in court? (Probably still loopholes here, but it should still be greater than $0.)

    33. Re:We need Loser pays by mysidia · · Score: 1

      I am not sure loser pays is the solution. I'm shocked that none of these judges has thrown the guy in jail.

      He forced all the judges to recuse themselves, because they had dealt with his shenanigans before, causing them to become biased against him.

      He kept forcing judges to recuse themselves, until he found a favorable judge to rule in his favor....

    34. Re:We need Loser pays by bfpierce · · Score: 1

      You can still lose even if you have a legitimate claim...

    35. Re:We need Loser pays by Rakarra · · Score: 4, Informative

      How is there any risk if you have a legitimate case? The only reason a legitimate case would lose is if they didn't have the resources to adequately present their case, and if the loser pays, then this ceases to be an issue.

      I Am Not A Lawyer, but my husband is. He often counsels his clients to go into settlement with decent terms, even if they don't get every last thing they want. But sometimes they are stubborn.. they refuse to give the other side anything at all, because they are so convinced of their righteousness. But the court system is a crapshoot, even if you have a good case. First, it's going to be pricey regardless of the outcome. Second... you don't know what a jury will believe. You don't know when you'll get the judge on a bad day. You don't know if your client will lose his temper and shout the wrong thing. There are a lot of variables that you just CAN'T control.

      I fear a loser-pays system because you can be in the right, and you can still lose a case. You can still get burned. It's a risk, and sometimes risks pay off, and sometimes they don't.

      Also, under loser-pays, the little guy might be guilty of the offense, but it's a very minor offense -- like, say, sharing a song on a P2P network. That small offense would involve exorbitant fees for the loser.

      When people think "loser pays," they're usually thinking "the big bad rich guy pays for the legal costs of the little guy who got wronged." But the flip side of the coin is that justice is not perfect even if everyone is entitled to it.

    36. Re:We need Loser pays by ThosLives · · Score: 1

      This makes for an interesting idea - mandate that legal fees/penalties must always be the same percentage of each party*'s net worth.

      Not sure it's a good idea, but it would avoid that kind of nonsense...

      *Define 'party' as 'all owners' to avoid hiding things in a shell company with zero assets.

      --
      "There are a dozen opinions on a matter until you know the truth. Then there is only one." - CS Lewis (paraprhase)
    37. Re:We need Loser pays by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      Sure. It doesn't matter how such a threshold is applied, just that there is some sort of threshold as opposed to 100% loser pays.

    38. Re:We need Loser pays by mysidia · · Score: 1

      estimates how much lawyer time the person representing themselves would need if they had gotten a lawyer, and multiplies that by a standard lawyer hourly fee

      And then issues them a 1099 for Self-Employment Income in the form of legal representation provided to self, and reports their earnings to all the taxing authorities.

    39. Re:We need Loser pays by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Only if you fail to prove it.

      Why would you fail to prove it? Especially if you aren't paying if you win?

    40. Re:We need Loser pays by hey! · · Score: 1

      Alternatively, you could have the trial judge refer what he believes are abusive suits referred to a panel of judges. If the plaintiff is found b the panel to have brought a clearly frivolous suit, he pays the defendant's legal costs, and the attorneys who brought the suit waive their fees and are suspended from practicing law for a couple of months.

      You don't want to simply penalize people who bring suits that have a reasonable chance of success, because that creates a system where people with deep pockets can still threaten to sue with impunity, simply because they can afford the downsides of the case coming to trial; poor people on the other hand wouldn't be able to afford to sue unless they were virtually certain of winning. Instead focus where the bulk of the responsibility lies: with lawyers who have the understanding of the system to know what they're doing is wrong.

      It's the low hanging fruit strategy. Don't try to get a perfect solution to the problem, because the attempt will necessarily sweep in a lot of borderline situations. Just make committing the most egregious offenses unattractive enough that lawyers who want to make a living stay far away from it.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    41. Re:We need Loser pays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Easier fix: Loser Pays winner's attorney's up to Loser's own attorney's fees. If Loser's attorney was contingent, we pretend it was not here.

    42. Re:We need Loser pays by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      In other words, you're advocating something despite being totally (and willfully) ignorant of how it works in practice.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    43. Re:We need Loser pays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At least he's not stupid for more than a moment.

    44. Re:We need Loser pays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless the demanding part is Sony corporation and the demanded a poor old lady that didn't even own a computer
      We arrange a settlement in which you pay us £5000 and we retire the charges of copyright infringement and illegal downloading
      Her choice was reduced to pay the £5000 or give everything she owned to her layer, only to run out of money

    45. Re:We need Loser pays by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Barring judicial corruption, they only lose a so-called legitimate case when they have failed to prove their case.

      And just why, exactly, do you think they would have failed to prove it? There are only two reasons that I know of: 1) they didn't have enough money or resources to spent on proving it, which is not an issue if loser pays; and 2) they didn't have a legitimate a case against them in the first place.

    46. Re:We need Loser pays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Loser pays would also make it basically impossible to sue any entity that has more money than you.

      Someone with more money can already make it impossible to win what should be a slam-dunk case. Hell, this exact story is a perfect example of just that.

    47. Re:We need Loser pays by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      Still not going to solve the throw-a-mountain-of-crap-at-them defense that a large corporation can do to any individual.

      Also, there's plenty of edge cases where it's reasonable for both parties to think they have a case. Those edge cases are the entire reason we have a (theoretically) independent judiciary. If it was all black-and-white, then we wouldn't need that.

    48. Re:We need Loser pays by macs4all · · Score: 1

      Loser pays would tamp down on a lot of people who use the process to punish people.

      Loser Pays just means that NO ONE will ever sue a large Corporation, or the Government, again.

      Or maybe that's what you want.

      Sorry; but the "American Rule" (everyone pays their own costs unless bad-faith can be proven) is a LOT more egalitarian than "Loser Pays" (the "English Rule").

    49. Re:We need Loser pays by macs4all · · Score: 1

      The *ONLY* reason to believe that you would lose when you otherwise believe you have a legitimate case against somebody is if you actually doubt the legitimacy of your case in the first place... in which case you do not actually sue, which is the entire point.

      You OBVIOUSLY have never sued ANYONE or ANYTHING of POWER.

    50. Re:We need Loser pays by thegarbz · · Score: 0

      You all are so cute when you are this young and naive.

      You say young and naive. I just naturally assumed he is from one of the many countries which have this system in place and where it works. The problem with Americans is they don't understand systems. They understand only what is immediately in place in front of them.

      Take the view of the Australia medicare system. It is often retorted with "But I want to chose my doctor". Guess what so do I, and I can. I don't know why you think socialised healthcare prevents you from doing so unless you only look at one small part of a system.

      The same is in place here. Australia has a loser pays law. Philip Morris had to pay the Australian Government court costs when it lost it's multimillion dollar case too. We have virtually no frivolous lawsuits, and to ensure the scales are balanced we also have a load of advocacy groups and trade balancing laws to the point where Microsoft was forced to change it's Australian warranty practices because of a case brought forward by a schoolkid still living with his parents.

      But hey you guys fled the colonial motherland so you must know better than those tea drinking poms who also have a loser pays system, or the half French half English among the snowy mountains above you who also have a loser pays system.

      Actually you know what, you hurt my feelings with your ignorance. I think I'll sue you for $500000 emotional damages. I won't win, but it'll be great knowing I cost you money for no good reason.

    51. Re:We need Loser pays by macs4all · · Score: 1

      Only if you fail to prove it.

      Why would you fail to prove it? Especially if you aren't paying if you win?

      Just stop it.

      You're WAY past embarassing yourself with your idealistic notions.

    52. Re:We need Loser pays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is amazing how much money the big guys like to waste when they want to make a point
      Basically they don't give a fuck, its all expenses, after the deed they may even give a tip to their local representative.
      you need to talk 9 digit numbers to worry that lot.

      then there are the smaller rats, finding ways to drag the issue for months or maybe years, do you have that amount of time dedicated to defend yourself? days away from work or from your business, time expend dealing with papers red tape, legal crap, stress....its no only the cost, is the huge inconvenience
      sadly some people prefer or is less damaging to them just to pay so the whole thing just go away

    53. Re:We need Loser pays by macs4all · · Score: 1

      Let the judge award "loser pays" only after meeting a high threshold. Such as in situations where no rational person would consider it a legitimate dispute.

      No need for change, then. There is already ample caselaw to support that under the "American Rule".

    54. Re:We need Loser pays by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Does the fact that my notion may be idealistic mean that it is somehow less worthy of consideration?

      The entire point of "loser pays" is to discourage people from suing somebody else when their claims are too weak to be sustainable, and to prevent rich corporations that may clearly be in the wrong from using the expense of the legal system to bankrupt a less wealthy opponent before they have had the opportunity to make their case.

    55. Re:We need Loser pays by macs4all · · Score: 1

      It would also discourage little people with limited resources from filing legitimate lawsuits. Who would want to sue a big corp or even a rich guy who screwed them over when they could be liable for hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of legal fees?

      Yep. Because when Megacorp or Big Gummint walks in there with 10 lawyers each billing $500 an hour, you (The Little Guy) might as well cut your losses and file a verbal Motion To Dismiss right then and there.

      Which is EXACTLY what "they" want...

    56. Re:We need Loser pays by macs4all · · Score: 1

      Presumably, if your case was valid, then you wouldn't actually lose. If you do not believe in the merits of your own case, then obviously you do not sue That's the entire point.

      Stop it! You're KILLING me! AND THE REST OF SLASHDOT!!!

    57. Re:We need Loser pays by Anonymice · · Score: 2

      You clearly have very little experience dealing with court cases.

      The English Law (used in most Western democracies outside the US) system is loser pays, and in the UK it's constantly being called to be put under review due to powerful companies abusing defamation & libel laws to stifle criticism, and put pressure on smaller parties/individuals to fold before anything even gets to the courts.

      Court cases can be expensive to defend, especially when the other side has a well financed legal army & the only defence you can afford without putting up your life's possessions as collateral or borrowing a substantial amount of cash, is an ambulance chaser who'll accept payment after the case is closed.

      I like the theory of loser pays, however it needs to be implemented very carefully to avoid abuses, and not a single country has yet managed to strike that balance.

    58. Re:We need Loser pays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Does the fact that my notion may be idealistic mean that it is somehow less worthy of consideration?

      YES

    59. Re:We need Loser pays by macs4all · · Score: 1

      Unless Zavodnik has no legal fees which is possible for an abusive litigant. If you look up news articles on him it looks like he files his own lawsuits without an attorney.

      And, it sounds like he's doing a pretty damn good job of it, too.

      Jus' sayin'...

    60. Re:We need Loser pays by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Do you have any rationalization for that, or was that just a brief outburst of blind prejudice against philosophies that you may not happen to personally believe in?

    61. Re:We need Loser pays by lgw · · Score: 2

      The jury decides whatever it decides. It can be totally in the face of all the evidence presented. You can make the odds in your favor if you have a good presentation, but there on no guarantees. Now, you pay $10,000,000 if you lose. Up for that? 95% chance you'll win your $5000 or whatever in damages, 5% chance you'll lose everything. Not a good system.

      There's some advantage to "loser pays the lesser of the two sides legal costs", but that does nothing to curtail serial abusers, as they never hire lawyers. There's more advantage to "judges bitchslap serial abusers".

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    62. Re:We need Loser pays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Such as in situations where no rational person would consider it a legitimate dispute.

      If you start bringing "rational people" into it, then we might as well just have rational people listening to each side's case and judging who is right. What would be the fun in that?

    63. Re:We need Loser pays by Copid · · Score: 1

      I'm wondering if a simple rule like "loser starts paying after he loses more than 1 lawsuit" is the way to go. Most normal sane people don't file lawsuit after lawsuit. The average person never sues everybody and I'd guess that most people with legitimate suits only ever sue once in a lifetime. It's abusive weirdos and corporations that are the ones suing all the time over nonsense, so a simple rule that gives you one or two freebies would protect the average Joe's right to have his day in court and seriously tamp down crazy behavior.

      Most bad stuff (crime, frivolous lawsuits, shady business practices, trolling, whatever) is done by a small number of people doing it over and over again, not by everybody dabbling in it equally. Rules that go easy on you the first time and then crank up the penalties will usually end up burdening the right people and leaving everybody else unscathed.

      --
      An interesting anagram of "BANACH TARSKI" is "BANACH TARSKI BANACH TARSKI"
    64. Re:We need Loser pays by Jack_of_Shadow · · Score: 2

      Disclaimer: My mom is a lawyer and I worked in her office for 6 years. Guess what? You are WRONG in capital letters, but your ego wouldn't let you admit it. Proof: A large corporation can keep sending requests for information (regardless of whether that information is even germane!) as long as they want. To answer, even to say that the info requested is not relevant costs money! Lawyers can and do continue to file request for information (which legally MUST be answered one way or another within 30 days or you are presumptively presumed guilty!) I could keep you in court for YEARS in this manner thus bankrupting you without the judge ever ruling anything. because we never got in front of the Judge. I would fax these requests to your lawyers office at 4:59 pm on Friday evening (legal BTW) and thus would meet the 30 day requirement and give you only 28 days to reply because your lawyer wouldn't even see them until Monday! Happens all the time. So, you would pay your lawyer to answer and he/she would bill you their normal rate and you would run out of money before the case got to trial. Simple. That is how most large corporations operate whenever possible.

      --
      My not responding to your flame is in no way indicative of my submission to your statement, it just means I don't have t
    65. Re:We need Loser pays by ewibble · · Score: 0

      I assume you are willing to bet everything you own on that statement being true otherwise you wouldn't of said it, right? We can pick a random judge to decide.

    66. Re:We need Loser pays by Jack_of_Shadow · · Score: 1

      May I please be a party to that lawsuit? I'd love to help bankrupt that moron to whom you are speaking, even though I too live south of the 'half French, half English' people up north.

      --
      My not responding to your flame is in no way indicative of my submission to your statement, it just means I don't have t
    67. Re:We need Loser pays by macs4all · · Score: 1

      The entire point of "loser pays" is to discourage people from suing somebody else when their claims are too weak to be sustainable, and to prevent rich corporations that may clearly be in the wrong from using the expense of the legal system to bankrupt a less wealthy opponent before they have had the opportunity to make their case.

      You are assuming a perfect Judicial world; where Justice is blind, and the Courts are there for the downtrodden.

      Neither is, unfortunately, anywhere CLOSE to being true.

      You'll find out one day. Trust me.

    68. Re:We need Loser pays by ADRA · · Score: 1

      Why? If you're wronged, you can take a loan against the winnings. If you lose (as a defendant), you declare bankruptcy and have ruined credit for 7? years.

      If loser doesn't pay, it means large pockets muscle down on anyone incapable of winning based on costs alone. If winners are paid fees upon winning the case, they can take a loan out on your speculated win to at least cover the costs of a 'fair' defence. This of course depends on your ability to win the suit. If you are on shaky terms, few would loan money to you, or charge excessive premiums. If your case is very strong, the margins should be a lot lower, etc..

      The net benefit is that a company / person needs to be confident in their ability to WIN before filing a law suit. It will exacerbate the cost of each individual law suit, but it should be offset by significantly fewer frivolous or 'low-quality' law suits which IMHO 'plagues' the US.

      The last point i'd have is no-contest proceedings where one side basically says "I'm guilty". I don't see the value in charging for costs if the suit isn't contested (even though there were up-front expenses by the damaged party).

      --
      Bye!
    69. Re:We need Loser pays by macs4all · · Score: 1

      Do you have any rationalization for that, or was that just a brief outburst of blind prejudice against philosophies that you may not happen to personally believe in?

      No, it's an OBSERVATION based on EXPERIENCE, DUMBASS!!!

    70. Re: We need Loser pays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, but it needs to be a standard way lawsuits start.

    71. Re:We need Loser pays by Desler · · Score: 2

      Right, because neither judges nor juries ever make wrong decisions. Appellate courts have never once in th 200+ years of the US's history have ever had to reverse decisions and remand them back to the original court. *rolls eyes*

    72. Re:We need Loser pays by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      I fear a loser-pays system because you can be in the right, and you can still lose a case. You can still get burned. It's a risk, and sometimes risks pay off, and sometimes they don't.

      The trick is to have an appropriate definition of "loser". What if party A sues party B, and party B offers to settle for a certain amount. A won't accept this and sues. Ultimately the court awards an amount that was less than the amount originally offered by B.

      Who "won"? B had to pay A, but had already offered to pay more. I think that in the UK, B "won", so A would have to pay B's fees.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    73. Re:We need Loser pays by Desler · · Score: 1

      Yes, it does. Reality does not match your naive view of the world.

    74. Re:We need Loser pays by tsstahl · · Score: 1

      Your naivete would be amusing if not for your overwhelming desire not to lose it.

      Maybe someone should sue you over it.

      Juries and judges do not give a damn about the self-righteousness of either party.

    75. Re:We need Loser pays by Jack_of_Shadow · · Score: 4, Interesting

      this, oh this is so right! My mom handled a case wherein three guys had a $10 million dollar inheritance... after 12 years one of the brothers hadn't seen 1 dollar, so he hired my mom... She asked him what he wanted to get, his reply, "$10,000,000!!!!!" She told him that at the very most he could expect was 1/3rd and probably a lot less because the brother who had the money, was the Executor and he is legally allowed to pay himself a 'reasonable' fee for managing the money. He has been for the last 12 years. So chances are that even if he won, he'd only get 1/3rd of what was left! He decided, against her judgment to go ahead... With demanding 10 million. The judge threw out that case, but allowed him to bring another... he brought another with my mom as his lawyer. This time asking for 5 million. Judge threw it out. Allowed him to bring another. over two years he kept telling my mom to keep bringing ridiculous lawsuits that she kept telling him would not go forward... After $17,000 in legal fees, he got awarded 1.3rd of what was left, so he got $10,000. He refused to pay my mom. She sued him, the judge awarded her the $17,000. So he won and was out $7,000.

      --
      My not responding to your flame is in no way indicative of my submission to your statement, it just means I don't have t
    76. Re: We need Loser pays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It should happen as part of an initial hearing before anyone has to respond to the lawsuit even.

      Case has merit and likely to succeed:. No cost

      Case has merit but less likely to succeed: Some cost paid to defendant for legal costs.

      Case has little merit: Fully aid prepaid legal costs for defense.

    77. Re:We need Loser pays by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Finally, a rational response to my comment.

      Far more sane than the others, which basically amount to "shut up and go away". Or, "I don't agree with you, therefore you are wrong".

      So yes... the person in the right can still lose a case, but in general... this is not what happens, as long as both sides have had a fair hearing. I don't dispute that it does happen, only that there would be absolutely no reason for anyone to ever want to use the court system to pursue legal remedy when they felt unjustly wronged in the first place unless it represented the exception and not the general rule. Ask your husband if I am wrong about this.

      You are right that justice is not perfect.... but that should not be an excuse for us to settle for a system that can be easily abused by people who happen to have more money than others. Instead, justice should be impartial to one's wealth, and the merits of their case alone should determine who is in the right. While this can be costly for the little guy who is found to be in wrong, even if their case may have appeared to have merit (perhaps only failing to have more merit than the opposing view), at least the bigger corporation that may have won will not have been able to use their economic advantage to win. Justice should apply equally to all.

    78. Re: We need Loser pays by macs4all · · Score: 1

      Yes, but it needs to be a standard way lawsuits start.

      There IS a standard way that Lawsuits start. Check out the Rules for Civil Procedure for the Venue (State and County, or Federal and Federal District) in which you are filing.

      Hint: It will be near the front of the Rules, like within the first 12 or so...

    79. Re:We need Loser pays by tsstahl · · Score: 2

      You have just incentivized the attorneys to drive costs through the roof. After all, somebody else is going to pay them eventually!

    80. Re:We need Loser pays by ADRA · · Score: 1

      I see legal fees added onto damages usually when the loser was operating in good faith (ie. there was a reasonable expectation that their case had good standing). Sure, it's somewhat vague and relies on the judge making the 'right call', but its worked on other jurisdictions (Canada from my experience), so I'm not seeing the boogy-man you envision (though I imagine there will always be exceptions on both sides).

      What I do see is a lot fewer people with "sue-first ask questions later" attitudes, though this is largely anecdotal.

      --
      Bye!
    81. Re:We need Loser pays by dcooper_db9 · · Score: 1

      This guy lost. Even if the plaintiff didn't get his $30k he probably would have gotten his $40 back. Loser pays would have the defendant stuck with the $30k plus the plaintiff's legal bills.

      --
      I do not block ads. I do block third party scripts.
    82. Re:We need Loser pays by swb · · Score: 1

      Or even better, let each side submit a financial statement and their notion of the maximum they're able to afford. The lowest of those two numbers is then the most they're allowed to spend without a judge approving any overages.

      It might be kind of crazy, but something tells me that generally speaking justice would be served by less money spent on cases. It usually seems like when there's a big imbalance in money, the richer party manages to bury the poorer one usually to the determent of justice.

    83. Re:We need Loser pays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This reminds me of how people get sticker shock when they see medical bills. Instead of thinking, "These costs are too high. I can't believe it's not fraud, or a consequence of a government-granted monopoly, or some other economic pathology," we as a society have taught ourselves to think, "Can I get someone else to pay for this, or otherwise hide the cost?"

      Having government judge a dispute shouldn't be hideously expensive. I don't care who pays for it (much) compared to how much it costs. I guarantee if you drill down into the costs on this story, all the while keeping your eye on the problem you're trying to solve ("did this guy sell a bad printer?") at some point you're going to look at some expense and go "whoooa! oh, hell no!" because someone is spending $5000 on a hammer.

    84. Re:We need Loser pays by gnasher719 · · Score: 1

      Loser pays would also make it basically impossible to sue any entity that has more money than you. The risk would be far too great, even if you had a legitimate dispute.

      Not if lawyer costs are limited. Like in Germany, where the lawyer gets paid a small percentage of the amount the parties argue about. In Germany, you would have no problem suing Microsoft for â1000 even with "loser pays", because there is a very low limit what the lawyers can charge.

    85. Re:We need Loser pays by gnasher719 · · Score: 4, Funny

      No, it would just ensure that every large corporation would show up with a team of 50 lawyers to every case. Knowing that you could end up paying each one of them $500/ hour if you lose because your lawyer was having a bad day, or the judge made a mistake. Including the amount of time each would be billing for for case prep and such, it would mean financial ruin from most people if they lose.

      Again, how this would play out in Germany for a â500 case: This team of 50 lawyers turn up in court. Judge looks at his watch. They all tell the judge their names. Judge decides that this is enough time spent on a â500 case and sends them all home, no claims stated, case lost.

    86. Re:We need Loser pays by F.Ultra · · Score: 2

      For this particular case though most if not all countries that have "loser pays all" this would not be a civil matter at all, it would be a matter for the consumer rights agency of the government and such cases are 100% free.

    87. Re:We need Loser pays by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      We do have "loser pays" in a lot of civil court cases in America (I don't know all the details, it's complicated). There are lots of details that can still help you avoid court costs, though. For example, the person who sues can withdraw the case any time before trial, with no recourse for the defendant. So if you've hired a lawyer, you're still out legal fees.

      And I'd be willing to bet the Australian court system has similar problems; but weirdos haven't figured out how to abuse them yet.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    88. Re:We need Loser pays by F.Ultra · · Score: 1

      Actually quite surprised about this myself, well some day he simply will rip off the wrong guy. If he keeps on doing this it's inevitable.

    89. Re:We need Loser pays by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      This guy's a piece of shit, but we need to contact him and somehow get him to file a barrage of lawsuits against Microsoft (probably for stuff related to forcing Win10 on everyone). That'd be funny as hell to watch.

    90. Re:We need Loser pays by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      Yes, even when lawyer costs are limited.

      Let's say I go to Disneyworld, and their ride explodes and I get injured. Pretty obvious I'd win a lawsuit right? Well, I'm a little guy who can afford one lawyer. They've got hundreds of them directly employed by the company. As a result, their lawyers are not paid per-case. And they can produce a mountain of garbage that overwhelms my attorney's ability to make the case.

      Now, they've spent a lot more than the cap on their defense, but I still lost.

    91. Re:We need Loser pays by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      That requires tracking every lawsuit the person files. Which is actually not that easy, given that we've got 2 or more court systems everywhere.

      It's far simpler to just have the judge do it. If the judge throws out the case in a preliminary hearing, let the judge add a "loser pays" penalty if appropriate.

    92. Re:We need Loser pays by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Ah... the best kind of evidence. Anecdotal.

    93. Re:We need Loser pays by mark-t · · Score: 1

      So because of exceptions to the general rule, we should not bother to implement a justice system that cannot be manipulated simply by how much money you happen to have?

    94. Re:We need Loser pays by mark-t · · Score: 1

      I like the theory of loser pays, however it needs to be implemented very carefully to avoid abuses, and not a single country has yet managed to strike that balance.

      On that point, we are in full agreement.

    95. Re:We need Loser pays by macs4all · · Score: 1

      This guy's a piece of shit, but we need to contact him and somehow get him to file a barrage of lawsuits against Microsoft (probably for stuff related to forcing Win10 on everyone). That'd be funny as hell to watch.

      It wouldn't work; his Mom would never let him file.

      But we need to give him a break. Afterall, we're all brought up to believe in things like Justice and Fairness...

    96. Re:We need Loser pays by romco · · Score: 1

      In Florida we have loser pays. You can offer a $1 settlement (or any amount) . If they dont win at least the amount you offered in the settlement they have to pay your legal fees.

      --
      AdFuel
    97. Re:We need Loser pays by The+Grim+Reefer · · Score: 1

      In other words, you're advocating something despite being totally (and willfully) ignorant of how it works in practice.

      Um, no. I'm looking at the unfortunate reality. Here's a link with a breakdown of the 2011-2012 congress at the bottom of the page.

      Of the 539 members of congress, 209 were business men/women and 200 were lawyers. Just how exactly do you think they're going to vote? Unfortunately it's simple self interest. Lawyers aren't going to make the legal system easier or simpler. And business people aren't going to make their life any more difficult either.

      Do you think the Koch brothers gave $7 million to the republican party in 2014 to make it easier for them to be sued? Or Michael Bloomberg $28 million to democrats that same year? The answer is, of course, no. They do this to buy votes for bills they want, or to obstruct ones they don't want passed. Just look at how damn powerful corporations have gotten over the last 50 years. Then ask yourself who's being "totally (and willfully) ignorant".

    98. Re:We need Loser pays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So megacorp can then mass market their auto-killing toaster and when sued hire the cheapest lawyer than can find for $50 an hour and cut a tiny check in the class action?

      I'm not sure you've fully thought through the implications of your suggestion.

    99. Re:We need Loser pays by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      This would stop citizens from suing corporations. An average citizen can not hope to pay the immense court costs that a corporation could create. Loser pays could work but only if combined with other more major changes to the legal system.

    100. Re:We need Loser pays by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      You can lose legitimate cases, it happens all the time. You would need a court case just to decide if a case were legitimate or not anyway. Both sides going into a small claims cour almost always believe they have a legitimate case.

      Courts costs are not fixed. There are costs to attorneys, costs to uncover evidence, costs for any and all court filings. Either side can do court filings at any time, ratcheting up the overall costs. At some point you look at your hand and the size of the pot on the table and may decide to back out before you bankrupt yourself. You may be right and the other side is wrong, but there's always a chance that the jury or judge disagrees and you're left holding a gigantic bill. This is not like Perry Mason where the good guys always win.

    101. Re:We need Loser pays by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      How can you know if the judge or jury is going to doubt you? What if your extremely compelling evidence is disallowed by the judge after the case has started? If people only went to court if there was 100% guarantee that they would win then the legal system would vanish, possibly replaced by something far far worse (abritration abuse, hiring thugs to make your point, etc).

    102. Re:We need Loser pays by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      momentally stupid.

      We've all been there.

    103. Re:We need Loser pays by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      WTF are you talking about? The guy is old: he emigrated from the Ukraine decades ago, and his mom is probably dead of old age.

    104. Re:We need Loser pays by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      These cases are not decided by perfectly programmed artificial intelligence.

      Look at civil cases with intellectual property. Patent cases get filed in east Texas because those juries are known to be biased in favor of the litigants. The evidence does not sway them. Whitfield Diffie shows up to tell the jury that he was the co-inventor for the basics of modern cryptography, which does not sway the jury because Withfield Diffie just happens to look a little strange to an east Texas jury. The loser-pays would not have stopped these patent trolls at all because they had a good win rate and a very high payout and so could afford to lose some cases. Someone with lots of money is not going to be intimidated by a lose-pays-all system, but someone with not much money will give up quickly rather than take on the 900lb gorilla in an Armani suit.

      Look at Oracle vs Google. Why would an appeals court reach a different decision than the original court? Same evidence, same sense of "I'm certain I'm right and you're wrong" on both sides, etc. If the appeals court can not agree with the original court that that proves there is uncertainty in the system.

      Look at criminal cases. Did O.J. walk free because the prosecution was incredibly inept, or because the prosecution was less persuasive than the defense? The evidence was presented, the evidence was compelling to most people, but to that jury much of that evidence was downplayed. When a decision is made by a jury you are throwing the dice every time and the evidence and arguments only serve to sway the odds; even with a judge and no jury it is still unpredictable.

    105. Re:We need Loser pays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is just not true. Big corporation hires a twelve person legal team with investigators, jury selection experts, paralegals, expert witnesses, etc. Little guy gets a lawyer from the storefront down the street, because he's cheap. Big legal team drags out case until little guy can't pay any more and gives up or brings in a slew of expert witnesses who'll testify to just about anything (after all who would call and expert witness (and pay them) to refute your position?) If the little guy wins the corporation pays the little guys lawyer $500. If the little guy looses he has to pay the corporation's legal team $2,000,000.
      With those risk to reward levels why would anyone ever sue a big company, no matter how much in the wrong they are?

    106. Re:We need Loser pays by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      This isn't a geometry proof in a math class.

    107. Re:We need Loser pays by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      This is definitely why most people who think they have an open and shut case end up settling out of court because they can't afford to stay in it for the long haul.

    108. Re:We need Loser pays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It doesn't matter. It would work that way in the U.S. legal system. What that means is that if you want to do loser pays you have to make changes throughout the system to support that change. For example, as a UK poster said track serial litigants and prevent them from filing without special review. Limit the billable hours of lawyers in some way, or limit the number of lawyers which can be claimed, so a big company can use 50 lawyers if they want, but the loser only has to pay one. Set limits on how much a litigant can spend, or at least how much can be claimed. And limit the reach of restitution. The little guy wins and then has to face five years of appeals which eventually overturn his win. Now cost has ballooned. How do you prevent that?

    109. Re:We need Loser pays by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 1

      How is there any risk if you have a legitimate case?

      Oh my god, that is so fucking adorable! You think having a "legitimate case" means anything? Really? lol

      I swear, this is so funny that it makes me want to print out your post and frame it.

      --
      Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
    110. Re:We need Loser pays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you have any rationalization for that

      Yes you are a moron.

    111. Re:We need Loser pays by macs4all · · Score: 1

      WTF are you talking about? The guy is old: he emigrated from the Ukraine decades ago, and his mom is probably dead of old age.

      WTF are you talking about? The guy is old: he emigrated from the Ukraine decades ago, and his mom is probably dead of old age.

      Oh geez! I'm SORRY!

      I thought I was replying to another part of the thread, DUH!

      Nevermind.

      I would have simply agreed with your post.

    112. Re:We need Loser pays by mark-t · · Score: 1

      It seems that your sole reason for concluding that, however, is based simply on the notion that I've had a number of responses disagree with what I've said... virtually all of which amount to little more than calling me names, telling me to shut up, or making accusations about my character that do not have any basis in fact, and with only one noteworthy exception, providing absolutely nothing of any substance that would suggest that what I've said is in any way incorrect. Somehow, in all of this, I am the one who is the moron.

      Challenging the fact that a person who has challenged what I've said has failed to provide a coherent and reasoned counter to my position does not make me a moron... at most it only makes me unpopular.

      Unpopular, however, does not mean wrong.

    113. Re:We need Loser pays by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Why would a person ever be inclined to try and use the court system in the first place if they did not believe that the legitimacy of their case would produce an outcome in their favour? It follows almost axiomatically that if you are willing to go to court over a matter, then you must believe that justice is going to be served by the effort, or else you would simply not bother, regardless if there was a "loser pays" policy or not.

    114. Re: We need Loser pays by myowntrueself · · Score: 1

      Surprise there:

      Judges in their majority are the same law major leeches with a lot of professional solidarity.

      Remember a federal court justice who acquited his fellow frat member of murdering his own wife?

      Remember this guy represents himself in court. So the lawyers aren't getting their cut. Thats probably why the judges are against him, no kickbacks.

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
    115. Re:We need Loser pays by myowntrueself · · Score: 1

      The *ONLY* reason to believe that you would lose when you otherwise believe you have a legitimate case against somebody is if you actually doubt the legitimacy of your case in the first place... in which case you do not actually sue, which is the entire point.

      Or if you believe they have better lawyers with better connections.

      You seem to believe that the legitimacy of a case has any bearing on the outcome, thats pretty naive.

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
    116. Re:We need Loser pays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It seems that your sole reason for concluding that, however, is based simply on the notion that I've had a number of responses disagree with what I've said...

      No you're pretty much just a moron.

    117. Re:We need Loser pays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is not true. The test of whether a court case is appropriate or not, is whether or not the suit was brought in good faith. In other words, the person initiating the action genuinely believes that they were damaged in some way. That is the test of whether a case is 'legitimate' in most places. That does not mean that the case will be carried - you cannot know the outcome for sure. You cannot know the true legitimacy of the case until it has been decided, and even then pretty much everywhere has an appeals process. By your measure it might be legitimate one day (because you win) and the illegitimate because that decision was overturned on appeal (you lose).

      In Australia, if a case is decided to have been brought in bad faith, then that party is liable to pay *all* costs of the defendant in defending the case. This is pretty rare. Otherwise, when costs are awarded it is typically legal fees only.

    118. Re:We need Loser pays by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Let me ask you a question, why would anyone sue someone if they did not believe that the court would side with them? You only have something to lose if you think that you could lose in the first place. The only reason to sue is if you think that you are right, and if you actually think you will lose despite being right, then you do not have any faith in the judicial system, Whether that distrust is deserved is entirely irrelevant, if you do not have faith in the judicial system to deliver a fair verdict, then there is no reason to try to use the legal system in the first place.

      Therefore, the little guy is *not* discouraged from suing the big corporation except to the extent that they shouldn't be suing at all.

    119. Re:We need Loser pays by mark-t · · Score: 1

      No... I believe that a person who doesn't believe that a judge will deliver a fair verdict has no business trying to sue anyone... because even if they were right, they would only be deliberately trying to manipulate a system that is supposed to be impartial to simply further their own ends,

    120. Re:We need Loser pays by radarskiy · · Score: 1

      "How is there any risk if you have a legitimate case?"

      The opposing party may also have a legitimate case.
      The opposing may be willing to sink economically unreasonable funds into the case because of a principle.
      The opposing party may have access to significantly larger resources than you can access even on credit and can outlast you.
      You or your counsel may make an error.
      You have to spend some amount of time at work rather than in a courtroom.

    121. Re:We need Loser pays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Also, under loser-pays, the little guy might be guilty of the offense, but it's a very minor offense -- like, say, sharing a song on a P2P network.

      Well, based on some court rulings, sharing a song is worse than rape..

    122. Re:We need Loser pays by goose-incarnated · · Score: 1

      For example, the person who sues can withdraw the case any time before trial, with no recourse for the defendant. So if you've hired a lawyer, you're still out legal fees.

      Only if you approached a really stupid lawyer when you received notice. Whenever I receive a letter or notice of suit, my reply generally ends something like this:

      ....

      If you persist any further with your action in spite of the above I shall seek legal remedies for any monies spent in defending your action.

      As a result, I have an ex-wife who very stupidly withdrew her action a week before trial who now owes me a small sum of money. I haven't executed on it yet, but for the last 4 years I make sure my attorney sends her a claim every six months.

      I don't need the money, but it sure feels nice to shut her up with "You talk to all your creditors like that?" :-)

      --
      I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
    123. Re:We need Loser pays by Bob+the+Super+Hamste · · Score: 1

      I like seeing stories like these as it does restore my faith in the legal system. I had a similar one years ago where I had to sue an insurance company to get the fair market value of a wrecked car. The insurance company wanted to give me $1200 for my car, yet the KBB and NADA book values were within $50 either way of $3100. I also found a bunch of almost identical vehicles (mine was in better shape before the wreck with lower miles and more options) for sale and the average price of those vehicles was $3000. The insurance company dismissed all of that. I went petitioned the insurance company for an independent appraisal which was done that found the vehicle should have been valued at $3150 and the insurance company said it was invalid even though they chose the appraiser. So after 4 months of fighting I filed a claim in small claims court for $3150 plus the $35 filing fee. Two months later I have my court date and I present all of my evidence, the KBB and NADA book values, the example cars, the independent appraisal done by the appraiser the insurance company chose, the insurance company's flawed valuation (triple deducting for mileage, and choosing 2 example vehicles each of which had 2-3 times the mileage as my car). The insurance company simply stated that they believed that their valuation was perfectly correct. For the ruling the judge found in my favor and told the insurance company that what I had been asking for was perfectly reasonable and that there was no reason why this should have made it this far. The judge also told them they should have settled as soon as I provided the KBB and NADA book values for the vehicle.

      So in the end the insurance company had to pay to store a vehicle for 6 months, pay for an independent appraisal, pay to have someone show up in court, pay my court costs, and pay the reasonable amount I was asking at the start.

      --
      Time to offend someone
    124. Re:We need Loser pays by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 1

      Why would a person ever be inclined to try and use the court system in the first place if they did not believe that the legitimacy of their case would produce an outcome in their favour?

      Well of course that's what people are led to believe- that if they go to court with a legitimate case then they will prevail. That's the idea, anyway, no one is arguing about that. It's just that the reality versus the expectation is often radically different. People lose legitimate, winnable cases all the time.

      It follows almost axiomatically that if you are willing to go to court over a matter, then you must believe that justice is going to be served by the effort, or else you would simply not bother, regardless if there was a "loser pays" policy or not.

      Of course that's why people go to court, because they believe that their case has merit and that they'll win. But the sad truth is that sometimes (frequently, some would say) the actual merit or legitimacy of the case doesn't decide the outcome. Legal maneuvering can turn a solid, winning case into a dead end or even a loss.

      I had an attorney once who discussed pre-nuptial agreements with me, and he said he loved pre-nups because he could always, ALWAYS invalidate them, no matter how well they were written.

      He said it didn't matter if it had been drawn up by Thurgood Marshall, approved by F. Lee Bailey, and signed by the current Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, he could always tear it to shreds and get it thrown out.

      I asked, "Then why in the world would people bother to have one drawn up?", and his reply was, "Because they're not lawyers."

      This isn't to say that some pre-nups don't stand up in court, just that a competent attorney can and will invalidate them if he wants to.

      --
      Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
    125. Re:We need Loser pays by mark-t · · Score: 1

      My point is that when the only reason that a person is going to try and use the court system at all to justly sue someone is when they believe that the merit of their case will be sufficient to convince the judge to side with them.... therefore, the potential cost of losing would have no bearing on their willingness to sue because they believe their case already has enough merit to win anyways. Again, if they did not, then they wouldn't be suing in the first place. "Loser pays" only discourages people from suing somebody richer than they are when the suing party has some doubt that the court can competently make a fair and just decision... and even if that doubt were entirely well placed, such people have no business using the court system to further their own ends, no matter *HOW* right they may believe they are. Given a lack of faith in the court system, the only reason to try and sue is that one is seeking some sort of resolution that will personally satisfy their own selfish goals, not because they are seeking a fair and just decision (even if they believe that they are parallel). It should not be the purpose of a court to allow people to manipulate its operation so that they can further their own agendas, even if their agendas are in harmony with justice.

    126. Re:We need Loser pays by Ihlosi · · Score: 1
      I fear a loser-pays system because you can be in the right, and you can still lose a case.

      And in a "everyone pays their own costs" system you can be in the right, win the case, and still be bankrupt afterwards.

      In such a system, a malicious (and well-funded) party can use lawsuits as an economic weapon.

      That small offense would involve exorbitant fees for the loser.

      Simple: If you *know* you're not going to win a case, you settle if this is cheaper than going through a lawsuit.

    127. Re:We need Loser pays by Ihlosi · · Score: 1
      The English Law (used in most Western democracies outside the US)

      I think France (and ancient Rome, to some extent) would like to have a word with you about their legal system.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    128. Re:We need Loser pays by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      Wow, mark-t with the "courts and juries are perfect" argument.

      Interesting.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    129. Re:We need Loser pays by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      lololol

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    130. Re:We need Loser pays by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 1

      It should not be the purpose of a court to allow people to manipulate its operation so that they can further their own agendas, even if their agendas are in harmony with justice.

      What? Everyone going to court has an agenda, and that agenda is (normally) to seek justice.

      What do you think lawyers do? They manipulate the court and the law (theoretically) in the pursuit of justice.

      --
      Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
    131. Re:We need Loser pays by EndlessNameless · · Score: 1

      That's lovely and all, but in America that case goes to civil court so our "loser pays" laws need to consider it.

      We have too much corporate influence on politics to have a strong consumer rights agency in the foreseeable future.

      That, and we have too many religious fundamentalists. If you get enough of them into a single government agency, the bureaucracy will become outright oppressive until some outside force corrects the situation.

      --

      ---
      According to the latest ruleset, this post should be modded as Vorpal Flamebait +5.
    132. Re:We need Loser pays by mark-t · · Score: 1

      First of all, nobody has business manipulating the court at all. That is what "loser pays" is designed to prevent. A person who sues somebody else must necessarily believe that a court would value the merit of their case or else they would not bother suing, and a wealthy organization that knowingly tries to bankrupt somebody that they know is in the right before the case can make it to court will not be able to do so. The only people that are discouraged from filing cases against wealthy organizations for fear of the costs of losing are people who don't have enough faith in the judicial system to deliver a fair and just verdict in the first place, and if they were to continue to pursue legal action in spite of this doubt, they would actually be going to court simply to further their own agenda (typically to profit) regardless of whether that agenda is just or not.

    133. Re:We need Loser pays by EndlessNameless · · Score: 1

      How is there any risk if you have a legitimate case?

      Off the top of my head:

      1. Your case requires expert testimony. A mechanic explaining an issue with a car, for example. Both sides have experts. The jury believes his expert over yours. Doesn't matter if your expert did a better job reviewing the data. Doesn't even matter if his expert was lying or just plain wrong, unless you can prove it.

      2. Cost. Some trials involve extensive discovery, numerous legal filings, forensic testing, or expert testimony. All of those things cost money. So do lawyers. If you run out of money and cannot pay for a test or an attorney, you may lose or be forced to drop the suit. Even if you're right.

      3. Both sides may feel legitimately wronged, and the way the law applies might not be perfectly clear beforehand. Part of your lawyer's job is arguing that a particular situation or action is covered by a particular law.

      4. The judge and jury are humans. So are the plaintiff and defendant. The events which led to the lawsuit may be clearly on one side of the law, but the judgments are based in part on how honest or well-intentioned the plaintiff and defendant seem to be. A perfectly kind and honest person could come across as a sleaze or a lunatic in the courtroom. A lot of scumballs seem polite and considerate until they sense an opportunity.

      On top of this, there is room for mistakes on all sides. Everyone, including you and your lawyer, can accidentally do something that hurts your case. And not all errors are grounds for appeal.

      So, how do you propose to eliminate all of these risks for people bringing legitimate cases?

      --

      ---
      According to the latest ruleset, this post should be modded as Vorpal Flamebait +5.
    134. Re:We need Loser pays by F.Ultra · · Score: 1

      I have never understood why the religious fundamentalists are so hell bent on implementing oppressive laws into government, don't they realize that at some point in time "the other side" will be in charge and then all those laws will be used against them, so it should be in their best interests to minimize the number of abusive laws.

    135. Re:We need Loser pays by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 1

      First of all, nobody has business manipulating the court at all.

      Yes, it is the business of lawyers to manipulate (sway, convince, persuade, influence, whatever verb you like best) the court so their side prevails. Maybe you don't like that term, but that definitely is the business of lawyers.

      I sure as shit want my attorney to convince (i.e. manipulate) the court to see things my way, especially if I feel I'm in the right.

      Seriously, this is what lawyers do. It's what you'll pay them to do, should you ever go to court.

      --
      Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
    136. Re:We need Loser pays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no

    137. Re:We need Loser pays by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Assuming that your position is justified, what you should be wanting from your attorney is for him to make an accurate representation of the truth in court. Nothing more, and nothing less. Full stop. If you do not believe that the truth is sufficient to convince a judge that your case has more merit than your opponent, then what ethically valid reason exists to try and use the judicial system to achieve your ends in the first place, regardless of how justified you might feel about it?

    138. Re:We need Loser pays by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 1

      Assuming that your position is justified, what you should be wanting from your attorney is for him to make an accurate representation of the truth in court.

      Yes, that's what I want, and I want him to use this accurate representation of the truth to sway/manipulate/convince the court to rule in my favor.

      --
      Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
    139. Re:We need Loser pays by mark-t · · Score: 1

      I would suggest that all you should actually want from your attorney, assuming you actually believe that you are justified in the first place (and not simply trying to dig for gold or manipulate the court for an entirely selfish agenda that has nothing to do with objective justice) is for him to faithfully represent the truth. Full stop. While obviously you will always want to win, whether a faithful representation of the truth actually convinces the court or not is actually entirely irrelevant. You either believe that the court will deliver a just verdict or you do not. You may always hope that they do, of course, but if you do not have any faith that an accurate representation of the truth, based on nothing but its own merits, can convince a court that your case is more justified than your opponent's, then there is no ethically valid reason you should be suing someone in the first place.

    140. Re:We need Loser pays by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 1

      We're not disagreeing, but you seem to think we are.

      What part of "I want him to use this accurate representation of the truth to sway/manipulate/convince the court to rule in my favor" was unclear?

      At no point have I suggested that I want him to do anything illegal or unethical, as you seem to think.

      --
      Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
    141. Re:We need Loser pays by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      More than 20 years ago Farmers insurance had an open and notorious policy of flat refusing payment for any car worth less than $5000. They figured if the car was worth less than it cost to hire a lawyer, just don't pay.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    142. Re:We need Loser pays by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Because at no point does an objective presentation of the truth actually manipulate that person's actions... they evaluate the merits of an idea entirely on their own ability, and absolutely nobody should have any power to manipulate what another person decides. Manipulation, as I have said before, suggests taking a specific attempt to control the outcome, where the only person who should ever be in full control of the outcome is the judge.

    143. Re:We need Loser pays by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 1

      Because at no point does an objective presentation of the truth actually manipulate that person's actions... they evaluate the merits of an idea entirely on their own ability

      Lol, you've never been to court, have you? You've never been the subject of a lawsuit (the defendant) or filed one yourself (the plaintiff), because no one that had would ever say something as uninformed as this.

      -

      and absolutely nobody should have any power to manipulate what another person decides. Manipulation, as I have said before, suggests taking a specific attempt to control the outcome, where the only person who should ever be in full control of the outcome is the judge.

      Let me know what star your planet orbits and I'll make sure to drop by and say hello the next time I'm in the neighborhood.

      Lawyers manipulate the court through findings of fact, presentation of evidence, and through testimony, hopefully in pursuit of the truth and a fair outcome. THAT'S WHAT THEY DO, and that's what they're supposed to do.

      You may not like the word "manipulate", but whatever word you like, that is what they do.

      --
      Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
    144. Re:We need Loser pays by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Manipulation means to take control of something, and since you have absolutely no control over whatever the truth happens to be, you cannot ethically manipulate the outcome of a court decision. You can control how you present your case, but that doesn't take any control over what the outcome will actually be if the truth of your case, which you have absolutely no control over, cannot actually convince a judge to make a particular decision. If you do not believe that the merits of the case will convince a judge to side with you, then there is no ethically valid reason to sue in the first place. Yeah, the little guy who fears the consequences losing would be discouraged from suing a wealthy corporation with "loser pays", but that's intentional, because if a person doesn't trust the court system to make a fair decision, then there is no ethically valid reason they should be wanting to use the court system in the first place.

    145. Re:We need Loser pays by Trogre · · Score: 1

      What judge considered millions of dollars a reasonable fee for managing an inheritance over 12 years?

      --
      "Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
    146. Re:We need Loser pays by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 1

      Manipulation means to take control of something,

      Yes, and I want my attorney to take control of the case and deliver a favorable outcome.

      Call it whatever you like, but you're just quibbling about your preferred wording. It's a distinction without a difference.

      --
      Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
    147. Re:We need Loser pays by mark-t · · Score: 1

      I maintain the view that it is wholly unethical to ever wish to manipulate anyone else... for any reason. You do not control what the facts are, so you cannot actually control how the facts will convince anyone else of the merits of your case, nor should you be trying to make them do so, because you cannot change what the facts actually are.

      But this is digressing from the point at hand, which is that allegedly, "loser pays" discourages people from suing someone wealthier than they are for fear of losing.

      There are exactly two reasons that I can think of that this could happen:

      One, they fear that the opponent's position may have greater validity than their own. If they feel this way, then by using the court system to achieve their ends, they are behaving unethically... they are more concerned with selfish agendas than they are with actual justice.

      Two, they fear that the court system may make an unjust ruling. If they feel this way, then there is no valid reason to try and use the court system to resolve the conflict either, since it by that person's own belief system the court system does not faithfully represent justice... and so any attempt to sue despite cannot be based on any genuine desire to actually see justice done either. Any correspondence between their position and actual justice is actually just a happy coincidence, but entirely irrelevant to what decision the court may finally make.

      If "loser pays" can discourage those who fit in either category, it is acting exactly as intended.

    148. Re:We need Loser pays by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 1

      I maintain the view that it is wholly unethical to ever wish to manipulate anyone else... for any reason.

      There are all sorts of good reasons to manipulate someone, for example to protect the welfare of a child or to prevent harm, fraud, or fatality. You're welcome to whatever worldview you want, but be advised it may (read: WILL) clash with reality.

      -

      You do not control what the facts are

      Bullshit. Sometimes I am indeed one that controls or directs the events that result in what the facts turn out to be.

      -

      so you cannot actually control how the facts will convince anyone else of the merits of your case,

      That's why smart people hire attorneys to make the court understand the facts so they'll end up ruling in your favor.

      --
      Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
    149. Re:We need Loser pays by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Facts can only turn out to be whatever they actually are. Trying to selectively isolate some of the facts from being presented in your case with the express purpose of making your position appear to have more validity is indicative of the notion that one believes that their case may not actually have more validity than their opponent's after all.... as I said above, this is not ethically sustainable... and the precise kind of lawsuit that "loser pays" is intended to discourage.

    150. Re:We need Loser pays by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 1

      Facts can only turn out to be whatever they actually are.

      You misunderstand, either on purpose or for some other reason.

      If I throw a ball into a basket, then it's a fact that the ball went into the basket. I was the one who acted to make the ball go in, that is, I controlled the action that led to the "fact" that it ended up in the basket. I was in control of the creation of that factual event, if you will.

      In court, I would want my attorney to present this fact using every persuasive means at his disposal to manipulate/convince/sway the court to agree that the ball did, in fact, go into the basket. And there's nothing wrong with that; that's why we hire attorneys.

      At no time did I suggest that my attorney should do anything other than present the facts in the most persuasive (read: manipulative) way possible to prove my case.

      You just have a problem with the word "manipulate", which seems to be petty and possibly disingenuous.

      --
      Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
    151. Re:We need Loser pays by mark-t · · Score: 1

      The problem I have with "manipulate", particularly in the context you appear to be using it, is that it connotes exactly the same sort of attempt to control what other people think or believe as what you might see governmental organizations try and do when they censor works that do not agree with their own agenda, and so try to discourage the population from adopting views that do not agree with those of the governing body. That your motivation may be purer in intent than theirs is irrelevant. Even the very best of ends should not have to justify the means, the means must justify themselves or there is no ethical validity to doing them in the first place.

    152. Re:We need Loser pays by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 1

      The problem I have with "manipulate", particularly in the context you appear to be using it, is that it connotes exactly the same sort of attempt to control what other people think blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. . . .

      Yeah, um, whatever.

      Let me recap, since you appear to be incapable of bothering to read and comprehend my last few comments: At no time did I suggest that my attorney should do anything other than present the facts in the most persuasive (read: manipulative) way possible to prove my case.

      Again, you just have a problem with the word "manipulate", and now you're obsessing over it.

      --
      Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
  9. How do you protect yourself from this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'll bet this guy goes around looking for people with assets. He won't bother suing a poor person. How does one protect oneself from this kind of predatory legal action?

    1. Re:How do you protect yourself from this? by lazarus · · Score: 2

      You don't sell stuff to people on a service that does not review buyers.

      --
      I am not interested in articles about life extension advancements.
    2. Re:How do you protect yourself from this? by known_coward_69 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      don't sell anything on the internet. i've sold on ebay back in the day when it first started and after a while it's not worth the effort. you don't make anything after all the fees, shipping supplies, time spent packing this stuff and standing in line at the post office to mail it off give old phones to parents and buy new ones for yourself. donate books and movies to your local library. donate old clothing and toys. everything else you simply throw away and stay away from craigslist unless you're looking for sex or real estate

    3. Re:How do you protect yourself from this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He's doing the job that Americans won't do.

    4. Re:How do you protect yourself from this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'll bet this guy goes around looking for people with assets. He won't bother suing a poor person. How does one protect oneself from this kind of predatory legal action?

      Have enough assets that you can afford the very best lawyers, or don't have enough assets to justify some one trying to take them through the judicial process.

    5. Re:How do you protect yourself from this? by known_coward_69 · · Score: 1, Insightful

      or a hitman. most times paying someone to kill someone else is cheaper than paying lawyers

    6. Re:How do you protect yourself from this? by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Umbrella insurance.

    7. Re:How do you protect yourself from this? by Solandri · · Score: 1

      An umbrella insurance policy costs about $200/yr with a $1 million cap. It protects you against lawsuits not covered by home and auto insurance. This one might not qualify because he sold the printer, so it could be argued he was conducting business (which has different liability insurance). But if it was a one-time sale, it might be covered.

      Of course it's not protection in the sense of "make such abusive litigation tactics fail so sleazeballs don't try it." It's just protection in the sense of "I won't have to pay for the legal costs of defending myself." The insurance company will probably just pay the guy off to make him go away, thus guaranteeing he'll continue doing the same thing to other people..

    8. Re:How do you protect yourself from this? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2

      Have enough assets that you can afford the very best lawyers, or don't have enough assets to justify some one trying to take them through the judicial process.

      Do action figures count as assets? Asking for a friend.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    9. Re:How do you protect yourself from this? by Wycliffe · · Score: 1

      I'll bet this guy goes around looking for people with assets. He won't bother suing a poor person. How does one protect oneself from this kind of predatory legal action?

      Not necessarily. You want someone with enough money to pay a few thousand bucks but not enough to immediately hire lawyers to deal with your BS. Predatory legal action like this works best against the average middle class guy who won't hire a lawyer until he's already been screwed. Selling a used printer is the perfect mark because it means that you're rich enough to own a few pieces of electronics but still poor enough not to throw a $40 printer in the trash.

      A similar situation happened with my brother. One of his employees was suing for sexual harassment and wrongful termination. The lawyers were asking for 500k until my brother produced a cellphone recording of the exchange. He ended up settling with them for 3k because it was cheaper than continuing to pay his lawyer and he wanted them to just go away. Without that recording there would likely have been a very different outcome.

    10. Re:How do you protect yourself from this? by The-Ixian · · Score: 1

      I have sold a few things on ebay since 1999 and by few I mean 3 or 4... and out of those I had a buyer claim that the item was broken (despite the fact that the item was brand new in a factory sealed and unopened box).

      I decided that it was too much hassle to deal with negative reviews and all that jazz and have not sold anything since. Everything used and unneeded goes straight into the landfill now...

      --
      My eyes reflect the stars and a smile lights up my face.
    11. Re:How do you protect yourself from this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sadly, that's probably your best option. eBay doesn't even want your business, they've been trying to discourage small sellers and auction-style listings for years as they attempt to rebrand themselves into a poor man's Amazon.com. There is no way to just sell something and be certain that the transaction holds; in any dispute about the item itself, eBay always finds in favor of the buyer and charges all costs to the seller. This is their way of "encouraging" sellers to offer returns. If you offer returns, the buyer pays for return shipping. If you don't, you pay for return shipping. In general, you pay for everything, there are no consequences to the buyer, and eBay, PayPal, and the USPS make lots of money. The landfill is squeaky clean compared to eBay.

    12. Re:How do you protect yourself from this? by Newander · · Score: 1

      Only if they're NIB

      --

      Jesus saves and takes half damage.

    13. Re:How do you protect yourself from this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If we never sell anything on the Internet we will be sitting with shitload of inventory we cannot get rid of.

      http://www.cracked.com/personal-experiences-2152-6-realities-playing-arcade-games-money.html

      This is how we make money on eBay. Safe and sound. The fee does not eat into our margin at all.

    14. Re:How do you protect yourself from this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      craigslist is fine for picking up nearby local furniture if you're in the state of life you don't really give a shit about your furniture.

      Just go with $20, don't give out your number, etc. And somewhere nearby so it's not a waste of time.

    15. Re:How do you protect yourself from this? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Only if they're NIB

      No way. My...I mean, my friend's action figures are for vigorous handling. Fortunately, they're mostly washable.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    16. Re:How do you protect yourself from this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some dolls can count as assets.

    17. Re:How do you protect yourself from this? by toddestan · · Score: 1

      I've always wondered about those eBay-consignment shops. Sure, they keep almost everything that eBay doesn't take off the top. But to drop a bunch of crap off, get at least something for it, and walk off and not have to deal with the hassle seems rather appealing.

  10. The words "AS IS" are your friends by Crashmarik · · Score: 5, Informative

    Along with
    "No warranty from seller"
    "Seller assumes no liability"
    "All sales final"
    "No Refunds"

    1. Re:The words "AS IS" are your friends by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those, along with EULA's can't abrogate your rights.
      Are there any rights when getting a used printer? Dunno.

      Most of this is because the defendant foolishly ignored the summons, and default judgments were entered.

      LOL Captcha harass

    2. Re:The words "AS IS" are your friends by Kjella · · Score: 5, Insightful

      None of them would have helped here, since the actual facts never went to court. Basically if someone files a crazy lawsuit and motions you must respond or lose by default. The purpose is to avoid stalling and to get as many things as possible settled so the court can only deal with the issues in dispute, but the "fallback strategy" is not good. If the motion is not answered it should go to the court for a court order, if the court order is not answered it should go to contempt. Having a "non-action" count as admission should be a last resort.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    3. Re:The words "AS IS" are your friends by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree, but in this situation the seller would still have to bring those words to the court over and over and over again, and any failure to do so would apparently result in a default judgment. Awful. :(

    4. Re:The words "AS IS" are your friends by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That won't even cover you in an eBay dispute. Granted, eBay is a rigged system where they bend over backwards to placate buyers, but at least they cap the amount of money they steal from you when a buyer files a fraudulent dispute at the total amount spent.

    5. Re:The words "AS IS" are your friends by tsstahl · · Score: 1

      A binding arbitration, and jurisdiction clauses in the terms of the sale are more like it. Even then, would only help in the eventual defense, not in the initial filing of a suit.

    6. Re:The words "AS IS" are your friends by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Costello claims he never received the request for admission, which is probably VERY common. You should not have to be liable for $XXX,YYY because you never received a correspondence. Every legal document should be required to be delivered by certified courier and signed for with ID.

    7. Re:The words "AS IS" are your friends by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      Are there any rights when getting a used printer? Dunno.

      The default position in many used sales is "AS IS" with some exceptions one of which is fraud, which the plaintiff tried to use. For example if I sell you a 92 Toyota Corolla and it dies on you right after you paid for it and received it, that's your tough luck . . . unless there was some fraud like I didn't actually own the car or it was a 88 Toyota that I advertised as a 92, etc.

      As for those other words, they are also the default in many states.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    8. Re:The words "AS IS" are your friends by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Won't help unless you actually go to trial, and even then it's questionable sometimes.

      I had to defend a seller in a case where the buyer not only signed a contract with an "AS-IS" no-warranties clause, they specifically had to initial beside that clause AND sign another separate document that said they were entering into the contract after consulting their own counsel. Even with that, the judge denied our motion for summary judgement and ordered us into mediation.

      Off the record, the mediator later told me that he thought the plaintiff was "completely batshit crazy," lied extensively (but badly) in all of her sworn depositions, and she refused to give an inch during settlement proceedings. After nine months, shortly before going to trial we finally got the suit dismissed with prejudice -- but my client was still out close to *ten thousand dollars* in court fees, discovery costs, and my attorney fees.

      I charged the guy half my normal rate and cut about half of my hours from the bill because of how utterly ridiculous it was, even though it took up a hugely disproportional amount of my time. I tend to avoid litigation as much as possible because of how the system works.

    9. Re:The words "AS IS" are your friends by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Having a "non-action" count as admission should be a last resort.

      Okay, assuming the plaintiff shows up and the defendant doesn't. The plaintiff can proof that he paid $75 for a printer and says it didn't work. I could see the judge awarding what was proved plus small claims court cost, but this bit where some random figure the plaintiff pulled out of his arse is ridiculous, even if it did eventually get overturned. Then again, if the plaintiff is a known serial litigant, the judge might award nothing if he can't also prove that the printer was faulty, such as by a repair bill dated within a week of purchase.

  11. It ought to be possible by jenningsthecat · · Score: 1

    for district attorneys to file criminal charges against those who are clearly and repeatedly abusing the civil litigation process. Tens of thousands of dollars claimed over a forty dollar printer? It's hard to view this as anything other than theft, and thieves have done hard jail time for far lower dollar values than those sought by the plaintiff in this case. Civil law shouldn't be a lottery, and criminal law should have the power to prevent people from treating it as one.

    --
    'The Economy' is a giant Ponzi scheme whose most pitiable suckers are the youngest among us and the yet-unborn.
    1. Re:It ought to be possible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, all we need to do is a system like most other countries have: "Loser pays".

    2. Re:It ought to be possible by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Disbar the plaintiff's lawyer.

    3. Re:It ought to be possible by Robert+Goatse · · Score: 1

      Agreed. I'm surprised this case was 1) taken by any lawyer and 2) not laughed out of court.

    4. Re:It ought to be possible by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 2

      Disbar the plaintiff's lawyer.

      FTA:

      The printer's buyer was Gersh Zavodnik, a 54-year-old Indianapolis man known to many in the legal community as a frequent lawsuit filer who also represents himself in court.

      Not sure how they disbar the guy if he's not a lawyer...

      --
      Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
    5. Re:It ought to be possible by Kierthos · · Score: 3, Interesting

      If he gets ruled as a vexatious litigant, they basically have to get a judge to sign off on every lawsuit they bring before it can go court. Which can end up making more work for whatever judge or judges get saddled with reading through that sort of nonsense....

      --
      Mr. Hu is not a ninja.
    6. Re:It ought to be possible by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 1

      Plaintiff represents himself. This guy and his buddy appear to have made frivolous lawsuits their full-time job.

      --
      Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
    7. Re:It ought to be possible by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      We're all surprised cases with no chance of winning are taken by lawyers; in this case, the lawyer is acting as an accomplice to an abuse of the courts. Such abuses *do* carry legal penalties, and the judge *can* sanction the lawyer if the lawyer has sufficient responsibility for court conduct. Lawyers can and have been sanctioned for taking ridiculous stances and attempting to manipulate the courts in representation of their clients. Lawyers and plaintiffs have been sanctioned and lawyers have been disbarred for what judges have described as "playing the court system like a lottery". There's a video game character named after a lawyer who successfully defended a lawsuit by pointing out that the plaintiff had been sued for *exactly* what they were suing for now, and took the stance the defense was taking at the time, and won; the judge was not amused, and penalized the plaintiff and their lawyers severely.

      This is more than stupid; it is illegal.

    8. Re:It ought to be possible by myowntrueself · · Score: 1

      Disbar the plaintiff's lawyer.

      Did you read the article?

      That would be the plaintiff. And he wasn't admitted to any bar so good luck with that.

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
    9. Re:It ought to be possible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I rather think he knows that, much in the spirit of the adage "the man who represents himself has a fool for a client".

    10. Re:It ought to be possible by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      Ban him from filing lawsuits under the vexatious litigation precedent.

    11. Re:It ought to be possible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He is also here as "a refugee from Ukraine" And people wonder why Trump is standing out to the masses. This has me posting as' Anonymous Coward', but I don't know how to post as myself; Shawn Callahan. For those of you who say that America was built on immigration, I agree, but that was also before we had 700Million people all with their hands out.

    12. Re:It ought to be possible by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It ought to be possible for district attorneys to file criminal charges against those who are clearly and repeatedly abusing the civil litigation process.

      It is possible, under 18 USC 242. Civil actions can be brought under 42 USC 1983. Abusing the litigation process is clearly a violation of a number of fundamental rights, and thus of rights protected under the 9th and 10th Amendments.

      Laws on extortion and fraud might also be applicable in some cases, depending upon the actual facts of the case, particularly when the effect of rights arising under the 9th and 10th Amendments is taken into account.

      As with any matter in law, there are many parties with ethical conflicts of interest that have influence over the implementation of the legal system. That can prevent the operation of the laws that are actually on the books, allowing fundamental rights to be violated, and miscarriages of justice to happen. With respect to 18 USC 242, for example, there are interesting regional variations in how often it gets implemented, suggesting government in certain parts of the country is unwilling to do its job. Unfortunately, the US legal and political systems are riddled with problems - it's not just the patent and copyright systems that are badly broken (despite the impression one sometimes gets on this forum).

  12. Loser pays by martinux · · Score: 2

    While I am not an expert in the US legal system it seems like having the loser pay the legal bills might reduce some of this predatory litigation.

    The question is, how much influence does the US electorate have over this kind of decision? People who rely on winning through bankruptcy are also the people who have the kind of money to lobby to maintain the current system.

    1. Re:Loser pays by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      Loser pays would also make it basically impossible to sue any entity that has more money than you. The risk would be far too great, even if you had a legitimate dispute.

      Let the judge award "loser pays" only after meeting a high threshold. Such as in situations where no rational person would consider it a legitimate dispute.

    2. Re:Loser pays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem with that is it makes the risk too high for the little guy to sue a big corp.

    3. Re:Loser pays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      How do you define the threshold? By communism, that's how.

      Ooooh look, a little old lady suing GM because her car exploded, give her a ton of money and screw the wealth-creating megacorp.

    4. Re:Loser pays by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      "While I am not an expert in the US legal system it seems like having the loser pay the legal bills might reduce some of this predatory litigation."
      The problem is that it would also prevent a lot of justifiable litigation.
      Would you risk taking a big company to court if you lost you had to pay their costs?

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    5. Re:Loser pays by mark-t · · Score: 1

      If you believe you have a legitimate dispute, then why would you feel that you could not present it adequately to convince a judge, and obtain a ruling in your favor? And if you did not feel you could adequately present it to convince a judge, why do you feel that your case is legitimate in the first place?

    6. Re:Loser pays by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Only if the little guy doesn't believe they actually have a legitimate case against the big corp in the first place.

    7. Re:Loser pays by martinux · · Score: 1

      This is why a cap can be placed on recoverable fees and has in many parts of the world.

      http://www.policyarchive.org/h...

      In short, a rich company hoping to scare off litigation by advertising a team of expensive lawyers or an extended litigation period would not be able to as those lawyers would recognise that they would only be able to share in a limited, small pot of cash.

    8. Re:Loser pays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because you can have a legitimate case are still lose.

    9. Re: Loser pays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not a belief system

    10. Re:Loser pays by jeff4747 · · Score: 2

      For example, "gay marriage" and wedding cakes. Plaintiff believes that any public business has to serve them. Which is true. Defendant believes that the First Amendment gives them the right to refuse service to people. Which is also true.

      Both believe they have a legitimate case. The intersection of those edge cases will result in a loser, despite both having a legitimate case

    11. Re:Loser pays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, you are brilliant comedian. That whole bit about our legal system being fair and concerned with truth. What comedy club do you perform at, I got to get tickets!

    12. Re:Loser pays by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      And that company's definition of a "small pot of cash" is significantly different from the definition of the vast majority of people they can harm.

      Civil law is not black-and-white. It is entirely possible to end up in edge cases where both sides of a lawsuit have a reasonable argument that they are correct. The loser in such a lawsuit should not be forced to pay. Because such disputes where both parties are "right" are the reason we have a (theoretically) independent judiciary.

    13. Re:Loser pays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      laws are overwhelmingly complex and riddled with all sorts of loopholes of various kinds.

      Poorly paid lawyers may not have the motivation or skillset to sort it all out. I am not rich enough to hire any other kind of lawyer. So why would I take the risk of being on the hook for hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of legal fees hmm?

    14. Re:Loser pays by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Because it is not a sure thing. It is never a sure thing. Let me give you an example.
      A man flying a 1947 J3 cub landed in a farmer's pasture without permission. The farmer called the police and drove his truck in front of the J3 to stop he from taking off before the police showed up. The pilot took off and hit the van. He sued Piper Aircraft because his 1947 did not meet modern safety standards and won! This is insane but it happened.
      You can be right a still not win.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    15. Re:Loser pays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because judges are humans. They have biases. They can be corrupted. They simply might not see it your way, even though you are right.

      Also, there are an amazing number of legal tricks available (mostly to wealthy legal teams) to foil a legitimate case.

      Justice is hard. Our justice system is better than nothing, but still far from perfect. Protecting a complainant from life-destroying legal fees is an important part of making justice be as good as we can.

    16. Re:Loser pays by Rakarra · · Score: 2

      Everyone, rich or poor, has equal protection under the law.

    17. Re:Loser pays by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      For example, "gay marriage" and wedding cakes. Plaintiff believes public businesses must serve them. Which is true. Defendant believes the First Amendment lets them refuse service. Which is also true.

      So, which of those two had no case?

      The reason we have a judiciary is to handle these edge cases. If it was all as black-and-white as you claim, we wouldn't need one.

    18. Re:Loser pays by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      You're acting as if there isn't a 400 year history of such a legal system in place which has formed the foundation of legal systems all over the world without massively unbalancing the power between people. In western democracy the United States it the only country which doesn't have a loser pays system in some form or another. Interestingly it also seems to be the country where the power imbalance is the greatest.

      It should also be noted that I've never seen a people who think everything is black and white or as absolute as those from the United States. Likewise in this case. Loser pays does not cause massive imbalances as the courts apply a reasonable restriction on the recoverable costs, which includes the inability to bankrupt the other party by claiming excessive fees.

    19. Re:Loser pays by mark-t · · Score: 1

      If one did not believe the legal system to be fair or concerned with truth, there would be no reason to try and use the legal system to sue somebody wealthy in the first place either... the very thing that it is alleged that "loser pays" would discourage.

    20. Re:Loser pays by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      A man flying a 1947 J3 cub landed in a farmer's pasture without permission. The farmer called the police and drove his truck in front of the J3 to stop he from taking off before the police showed up. The pilot took off and hit the van. He sued Piper Aircraft because his 1947 did not meet modern safety standards and won!

      Got a citation for that? Because it sounds like an urban legend and my simple Google searches did not find any reference to it.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    21. Re:Loser pays by ADRA · · Score: 1

      Which is why "loser-pays" usually applies to law suits 'in bad faith', usually not where the case can rely on a few keys unknown facts (discovery), and never in cases where legal president is set.

      Scenario:
      MS sees 100,000 Windows activation requests from ubercorp1 and ubercorp1 says they don't run windows. Law suit follows...
      In discovery its found that the activation requests were from a public Wifi operated by ubercorp1, public by accident.
      Lets say ubercorp1 wins because they technically didn't violate windows TOS. (ignoring for the sake of simplicity the open Wifi problem)
      No fees required to be exchanged because MS had 'good cause' to suspect ubercorp1 of misgivings.

      --
      Bye!
    22. Re:Loser pays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Jesus, Mark, give it the fuck up. You've been spouting that bullshit all throughout the thread, and I'm not wasting any more mod points on you or the people that are trying to correct and inform you.

      Many other posters have pointed out the naivete and lack of understanding of the legal process evidenced by your continually repeated "Well if they have a legitimate case they have nothing to fear!" nonsense.

      You clearly do not comprehend the very large disconnect between [legitimate case] and [winning case], nor between [huge amount of resources you have to commit on the front end in order to even approach going to trial] versus [possibly getting some of those upfront resources back IF you win]. Outspending your opponent is perhaps the best way to win cases; better than actually having winning facts (a "legitimate case" as you would call it).

      Here is one example, out of literal millions of examples: There are some specialized corners of science and medicine where it is possible to retain all or nearly all of the qualified experts on that subject matter. If I have a "legitimate case" against Corp X that their product causes a very rare cancer, or infringes on a patent in a very esoteric subject matter area, they may be able to beat me primarily by buying out the expert witness space.

      Or burying me in motions. Or burying me in 2,000,000 pages of discovery: hey good luck finding that smoking gun, little guy! Hope you enjoy trying to read through more poorly OCRd documents than one human could read before the trial date! Or dragging their feet on producing anything at all, and make me go have a mini trial about the fact that they're playing games with discovery. Or maybe they'll take me through a big complex fight over venue. Or maybe they'll make sure the key witness I need to depose is on an extended tour in the Bangalore office.

      Maybe they'll do all of those things at different points in the case, and dozens of other things you can do with money to make life hard for an opponent. And to combat every single one of these tactics, I need to pony up the money now. Tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars. Corp X isn't paying for my travel and court reporting costs to take that deposition in India, and they're not going to help me pay for the doc review team to go over their 2 million page production. This is all before even thinking about setting foot inside a courtroom.

      Losing for lack of any "legitimate case" is not even in the top 5 of reasons people lose at trial. Pretty much every case that makes it into a courtroom has at least a colorable argument behind it, otherwise it would've gotten thrown out on summary judgment. And an attorney bringing a truly meritless case will get sanctioned big time. So, Mark, in short: no.

    23. Re:Loser pays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How many times are you going to repeat this? Many have given you perfectly reasonable explanations already.

    24. Re:Loser pays by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      Which is the same as I proposed above: You don't go with an automatic "loser pays". Instead, "loser pays" gets applied based on the details of the specific case.

    25. Re:Loser pays by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People lose legitimate cases all the time.

    26. Re:Loser pays by Justtaint · · Score: 1

      http://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi...

      This seems the most likely origin of his tale. Not a 1947 Piper Cub, not a farmer, but the story is close enough.
      Unfortunately none of the links are working on the Snopes website to check out the sources.

    27. Re:Loser pays by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      Loser pays would also make it basically impossible to sue any entity that has more money than you. The risk would be far too great, even if you had a legitimate dispute.

      Let the judge award "loser pays" only after meeting a high threshold. Such as in situations where no rational person would consider it a legitimate dispute.

      But it's still basically impossible to sue any entity that has more money than you. In fact, it's worse this way. If it was loser pays, then at least you'd have a chance of getting your expenditure back, and somebody who believes in your case can lend you the money. This way, the deeper pockets can just drag it out until you run out of money.
      For instance:
      "The News of Radio; Armstrong Files Suit Against RCA and NBC -- Charges Infringements on Patents" NYTimes July 24, 1948
      "Armstrong, FM Inventor, Dies In Leap From East Side Suite; Pioneer in Radio, 63, Plunges From River House Window -- Left a Note for Wife" NYTimes February 02, 1954
      " The Radio Corporation of America and the National Broadcasting Company have settled for "approximately $1,000,000" claims against them by the estate of the late Maj. Edwin H. Armstrong." NYTimes, December 31, 1954

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
    28. Re:Loser pays by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      If you believe you have a legitimate dispute, then why would you feel that you could not present it adequately to convince a judge, and obtain a ruling in your favor? And if you did not feel you could adequately present it to convince a judge, why do you feel that your case is legitimate in the first place?

      Many crazy people out there.

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
  13. On the one hand, and the other hand... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well, there's two ways to see this. This may be a crazy set of events allowed by an insufficiently judicious judiciary, but there is plenty of abuse when it comes to dismissing cases and refusing to see justice done in a timely manner.

    But on the gripping hand, what are we to do when we live in a world where justice can't be done by the legal system? Where it causes more heartache, worry, and strain for people? Surely not every judge can threaten to cut a baby in half, but maybe there was something to be done here.

    1. Re:On the one hand, and the other hand... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      But on the gripping hand [...]

      When did the three-armed Moties escape from the blockade?

    2. Re:On the one hand, and the other hand... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Once the government subcontracted it out.

      Turns out the moties were the lowest bidder.

    3. Re:On the one hand, and the other hand... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      Turns out the moties were the lowest bidder.

      They probably tossed in a few War Rats.

  14. Vexatious Litigant by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Typically this is solved by labeling the plaintiff as a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vexatious_litigation Vexatious Litigant. Then it becomes harder for the plaintiff to file lawsuits.

  15. Abusive, stupid laws, WILL get abused. by gurps_npc · · Score: 1

    The problem comes from the assumption by the lawmakers that businesses were always honest. They basically said anyone that doesn't answer a legal demand must be guilty, but they made no attempt to ensure that the legal demands were a) actually sent and b) believed to be real, rather than a typical scare tactic used by con men.

    The lawmakers in question should be flooded with legal demands from non-existent cases to assist them in learning the era of their ways.

    --
    excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    1. Re:Abusive, stupid laws, WILL get abused. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      they would then just pass a law saying that litigation against politicians in office is considered treason.

  16. Awesome legal hacking by plaintif by mi · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The winning technique used by the plaintiff was thus:

    1. Send a letter to the target asking him to admit fault and owing a certain amount of money ($30K, $600K, whatever).
    2. Wait for him to not respond in 30 days
    3. Voila, by Indiana law, this not-responding is equivalent to the admission being sought.
    4. Profit, obviously.

    The judge, who awarded him $30K (plus interest), acknowledged the amount is "seemingly high" and the judgment "may seem extreme for the breach of contract for the purchase of a printer." But he wrote that he's constrained by how the Supreme Court had previously interpreted a state trial rule, called Rule 36, which sets the 30-day deadline for responding to requests for admissions.

    The appeal court noted:

    "He did not send requests claiming $30,000 and $300,000 and $600,000 in damages because he believes those figures are legally justified and thought Costello might agree," Vaidik wrote. "He sent them because he hoped Costello would not respond, rendering the matters admitted..."

    Yes, he did, you dimwits. You sat on that rule for years and saw nothing wrong with it. You saw nothing wrong with it applied by your fellow pedigreed lawyers acting just as predatory — if only a little less obviously — against others. Suddenly, a man comes around filing his own lawsuits, representing himself in court — and you find yourself bound by your own arcane rules.

    "Oh, but we did not mean for it be used that way." Well, you should not have written it that way then...

    Whether the sold printer was broken, whether the seller really did try to sell a lemon — that's small potatoes. What pan Zavodnik exposed was the incompetence of Indiana's judges. Hurrah for the hacker!

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    1. Re:Awesome legal hacking by plaintif by omnichad · · Score: 1

      The way to prove laws are unjust is not to make it a terrible hardship for an innocent bystander. That makes you far worse than a badly written law.

    2. Re:Awesome legal hacking by plaintif by dlleigh · · Score: 1

      The simplest solution is to avoid doing business with anyone in the state of Indiana.

      Once the economic costs of short-sighted legislation and stupid court decisions begin mounting, the state will change its laws.

    3. Re:Awesome legal hacking by plaintif by Stormy+Dragon · · Score: 1

      The court can't change the rule, only the legislature can, and they won't because they'd lose campaign contributions from the debt collection industry, which is the group that makes most use of it.

    4. Re:Awesome legal hacking by plaintif by sjames · · Score: 1

      It seems to me that the correct action by the court would have been to nullify the whole damned thing since the plaintiff had thrown away the only evidence that the printer didn't work and so the follow-on "damages" couldn't be linked to anything. There was no reason the defendant even needed to hear anything about it.

    5. Re:Awesome legal hacking by plaintif by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      This rule should be done away with. Otherwise, you could win cash from someone by performing the equivalent of a mail-based DOS attack. Every day mail a stack of envelopes to a person asking them to admit to owing you a high value of money. Make sure each value is unique (so they can't say "we answered letter #2135 which has the same dollars as #5438"). Keep track of the responses and, if they miss a single letter, present that to the court as evidence that the person is liable for that amount. How likely is it that the person on the receiving end will reply to every single letter they get? How long until they miss one in the flood of mail or ignore them unaware of this law?

      All this would cost you is the ink and paper to print them, the time to stuff the envelopes, and stamp costs. A person with no scruples could easily make tons of money like this.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    6. Re:Awesome legal hacking by plaintif by mi · · Score: 0

      The court can't change the rule, only the legislature can

      I thought so too, but it seems, this rule is not a law, but a procedural rule actually set by the State's Supreme Court. The document is titled: "Indiana Rules of Court. Rules of Trial Procedure". Either way, whether it is the law-makers or the law-interpreters (judges), who are responsible, the problem is with the legal system, which leaves no leeway for the judges.

      debt collection industry, which is the group that makes most use of it.

      I'd be interested in seeing your evidence of debt-collectors' contributions to politicians.

      But, even if your accusation is true, the simple defense against the technique is to, instead of ignoring the letter, respond to it with a "No". Why didn't the target do that, I do not know. Maybe, being from Massachusetts, he thought he can pretend to not have received anything until somebody cornered him with the infamous "You are served!"

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    7. Re:Awesome legal hacking by plaintif by mi · · Score: 1

      Every day mail a stack of envelopes to a person asking them to admit to owing you a high value of money. [...] All this would cost you is the ink and paper to print them, the time to stuff the envelopes, and stamp costs.

      It would seem, the letter must refer to an existing lawsuit — you have to keep filing them too, racking up filing fees. It may still be profitable and, obviously, there needs to be some safeguard against abuses. That there is not is the fault of Indiana's law-makers and/or judges.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    8. Re:Awesome legal hacking by plaintif by epine · · Score: 1

      The simplest solution is to avoid doing business with anyone in the state of Indiana.

      Either Indiana meant nothing to you in first place—all you get for your troubles is another annoying entry on your ever-lengthening "don't do" list, now with seventeen different flavours of unwanted ice cream—or you're in the business of selling performance car parts and it's ten minutes of internet background search every time the phone rings and a fair amount of rejecting business. This surely won't affect your Zagat rating, where of course the "simplest" solution is to sit back and let your online reputation go to hell—then continue to iterate "simplicity" until you find yourself—paying your bills was long ago an excluded complication—gracefully allowing your cell mate make use of your body however and whenever he wishes to.

      Simple is just another word for ... nothing left to lose.

      La la la, la la la la, la la la, la la la la
      La la la, la la la la, la la la, la la la la

      "Shut the fuck up, bitch, I ain't done with you yet."

    9. Re:Awesome legal hacking by plaintif by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, it looks like this guy was able to take one lawsuit (that the defendant even thought was done with) and was able to run off multiple "acknowledge that you owe me" letters based on it. So you open one case and then begin your legal DOS-ing until they owe you $50,000 just because one letter slipped through the cracks.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    10. Re:Awesome legal hacking by plaintif by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only a dimwit will simply ignore a legal request an hope it goes away.

      I am not saying the law is just here, but I am pointing out that the victim did something outright idiotic (ignoring the legal request), and suffered the consequences.

      People get far too comfortable assuming that being right means the justice system will protect them, or that a reasonable discussion is all it takes to clear up a dispute. This is about as intelligent as assuming you can eat lead paint chips all day and your doctor can just fix you up if anything goes wrong.

    11. Re:Awesome legal hacking by plaintif by Stormy+Dragon · · Score: 1

      I thought so too, but it seems, this rule is not a law, but a procedural rule actually set by the State's Supreme Court.

      Only because the power to do so has been delegated to them by the legislature, and even then only within the bounds provided by law, as per Indiana Code Title 34, Article 8:

      http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/in...

    12. Re:Awesome legal hacking by plaintif by quantaman · · Score: 1

      The appeal court noted:

      "He did not send requests claiming $30,000 and $300,000 and $600,000 in damages because he believes those figures are legally justified and thought Costello might agree," Vaidik wrote. "He sent them because he hoped Costello would not respond, rendering the matters admitted..."

      Yes, he did, you dimwits. You sat on that rule for years and saw nothing wrong with it. You saw nothing wrong with it applied by your fellow pedigreed lawyers acting just as predatory — if only a little less obviously — against others. Suddenly, a man comes around filing his own lawsuits, representing himself in court — and you find yourself bound by your own arcane rules.

      "Oh, but we did not mean for it be used that way." Well, you should not have written it that way then...

      The legislature wrote the law, not the court. My understanding is that the court isn't meant to function like a computer, executing whatever buggy code it's given. It's supposed to apply the rules with some degree of discretion, the higher the court the more discretion it gets.

      That's what the appeals court you cited did. They threw out the judgement granting $30k basically saying the rule was written to speed up proceedings and it was absurd to apply the rule that way.

      As this point the issues I see are

      a) The lower court let the plaintiff use the exploit, they should have had some other option.

      b) It cost $12k in legal fees for Costello to take the case to the appeals court and get the bogus ruling thrown out, that's a lot of money for procrastinating on a notice.

      --
      I stole this Sig
    13. Re:Awesome legal hacking by plaintif by Jack_of_Shadow · · Score: 1

      sooooo... in your world you can simply never reply to a filing and thus never be found guilty even when you are? The rule was put in place because people were stalling...

      --
      My not responding to your flame is in no way indicative of my submission to your statement, it just means I don't have t
    14. Re:Awesome legal hacking by plaintif by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      Yes, he did, you dimwits. You sat on that rule for years and saw nothing wrong with it. You saw nothing wrong with it applied by your fellow pedigreed lawyers acting just as predatory — if only a little less obviously — against others. Suddenly, a man comes around filing his own lawsuits, representing himself in court — and you find yourself bound by your own arcane rules.

      The Court of Appeals disagreed with you: "As the trial court noted, our Supreme Court held in General Motors Corp. that even if both of the conditions stated in Rule 36(B) are satisfied, the rule’s use of the word “may” means that the trial court retains discretion to deny a motion to withdraw."

      In other words the Court of Appeals says that the District Court could withdraw motion as it is not bound to enforce Rule 36(B) under all circumstances.

      Whether the sold printer was broken, whether the seller really did try to sell a lemon — that's small potatoes. What pan Zavodnik exposed was the incompetence of Indiana's judges. Hurrah for the hacker!

      No Zavodnik tried to exploit the system but the Court of Appeals smacked him down: "The RFA device is not intended to provide a windfall to litigants. Nor is the RFA procedure a ‘gotcha’ device[.];); Lucas v. Clark, 347 S.W.3d 800, 803 (Tex. Ct. App. 2011)." Zavodnik is not a hacker and should not get our applause.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    15. Re:Awesome legal hacking by plaintif by UnknowingFool · · Score: 1

      sooooo... in your world you can simply never reply to a filing and thus never be found guilty even when you are? The rule was put in place because people were stalling..

      No in this case, the plaintiff had already lost on the merits but and kept filing and abusing the system as noted by the court. The court already warned him once about his other cases. The defendant claims he never received notices to appear which is a matter that the District Court should have decided given the plaintiff's history. He may not have sent any notices to the defendant and claimed that he did.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    16. Re:Awesome legal hacking by plaintif by alexhs · · Score: 1

      Otherwise, you could win cash from someone by performing the equivalent of a mail-based DOS attack [...] Make sure each value is unique

      That's inefficient. You would get a better pay-off by sending everyone in the phone book a single mail.
      And as others have stated, you actually need to file a lawsuit, which cuts on your profitability (but as you're asking for a lot of money anyway...).

      --
      I have discovered a truly marvelous proof of killer sig, which this margin is too narrow to contain.
    17. Re:Awesome legal hacking by plaintif by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why don't you have to prove damages ?

      What was the $30k damages based on ?

      I thought all civil cases you had to prove damages.\

      Also - what is the bar for "delivery" ?

    18. Re:Awesome legal hacking by plaintif by kwoff · · Score: 1

      Last Week Tonight's recent show was on "debt buyers", who use a similar technique of gambling that people won't show up in court. They buy debt from banks for half a cent on the dollar, sue for the money, defendant doesn't show up, so by default (still) owes the whole amount -- debt buyer makes a big profit.

    19. Re:Awesome legal hacking by plaintif by gzuckier · · Score: 1

      The winning technique used by the plaintiff was thus:

      1. Send a letter to the target asking him to admit fault and owing a certain amount of money ($30K, $600K, whatever).
      2. Wait for him to not respond in 30 days
      3. Voila, by Indiana law, this not-responding is equivalent to the admission being sought.
      4. Profit, obviously.

      The judge, who awarded him $30K (plus interest), acknowledged the amount is "seemingly high" and the judgment "may seem extreme for the breach of contract for the purchase of a printer." But he wrote that he's constrained by how the Supreme Court had previously interpreted a state trial rule, called Rule 36, which sets the 30-day deadline for responding to requests for admissions.

      The appeal court noted:

      "He did not send requests claiming $30,000 and $300,000 and $600,000 in damages because he believes those figures are legally justified and thought Costello might agree," Vaidik wrote. "He sent them because he hoped Costello would not respond, rendering the matters admitted..."

      Yes, he did, you dimwits. You sat on that rule for years and saw nothing wrong with it. You saw nothing wrong with it applied by your fellow pedigreed lawyers acting just as predatory — if only a little less obviously — against others. Suddenly, a man comes around filing his own lawsuits, representing himself in court — and you find yourself bound by your own arcane rules.

      "Oh, but we did not mean for it be used that way." Well, you should not have written it that way then...

      Whether the sold printer was broken, whether the seller really did try to sell a lemon — that's small potatoes. What pan Zavodnik exposed was the incompetence of Indiana's judges. Hurrah for the hacker!

      same as the "you have not replied to my post therefore i Pwn you" school of comment flames.

      --
      Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
  17. Don't try to defend a lawsuit yourself. by mpoulton · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Anybody can sue anybody for anything. That's how the system works. To counterbalance the potential for abuse in such a system, filers of frivolous suits are often subject to awards of attorney's fees plus sanctions for dragging blameless defendants into court. What you cannot do is bungle your defense on the assumption that a judge will eventually see you're being screwed and throw the case out. How is a judge supposed to adjudicate a dispute between two unrepresented parties who don't know or follow the rules, and both claim they're right? This guy got himself into a huge procedural mess by failing to respond properly in his first response to the lawsuit. If you get sued, especially by a litigious moron, hire an attorney immediately. These things NEVER get easier to handle later on, and it is NEVER better to try it yourself first. The best defenses to ridiculous lawsuits MUST be raised immediately, correctly, and aggressively. You want the system to work differently? Talk to your legislators. Until then, lawyer up.

    --
    I am a geek attorney, but not your geek attorney unless you've already retained me. This is not legal advice.
    1. Re:Don't try to defend a lawsuit yourself. by sjames · · Score: 1

      You say that as if lawyers work for peanuts.

    2. Re:Don't try to defend a lawsuit yourself. by Scarred+Intellect · · Score: 1

      He's still not wrong.

    3. Re:Don't try to defend a lawsuit yourself. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or do what I did and marry an attorney. Of course, a divorce, if I ever wanted one, would be financial armageddon, but I digress.

    4. Re:Don't try to defend a lawsuit yourself. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This case is so utterly ridiculous it should lose against the null defense.

    5. Re:Don't try to defend a lawsuit yourself. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And that's the problem.

    6. Re:Don't try to defend a lawsuit yourself. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anybody can sue anybody for anything.

      A.k.a, whoever has more money owns justice.

    7. Re:Don't try to defend a lawsuit yourself. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      This guy got himself into a huge procedural mess by failing to respond properly in his first response to the lawsuit.

      Wrong. Read the article. The defendant responded to the first few requests, and won repeatedly in court. The plaintiff kept sending additional requests and arguing that previous rulings were invalid. "The trial court dismissed the case, along with 26 others filed by Zavodnik, who appealed all of those dismissals, court records state."

      The article does not provide ANY proof to the effect that the additional requests were even received by the defendant. This is a very tricky issue: I've had lots of mail intended for me get lost or misdirected, including mail with delivery confirmation, and I've received lots of packages intended for other people. Due to the large amount of garbage people receive, often with very deceptive text intended to try to get people to open it, it's also very easy for mail to be mistaken for junk mail and thrown away (a major civil rights problem in itself: why do people assume they have the right to force others to dispose of their garbage without compensation?).

      The right to not have one's time wasted is a fundamental right in a free society, and thus protected directly under the 9th Amendment. It's also protected indirectly under the right to ethical practice of law, another fundamental right, since lawyers serve as intermediaries in many situations where people don't want their time wasted (and hence the legal profession is in a position of ethical conflict of interest).

      Putting this in plainer terms, stealing a portion of somebody's life through frivolous litigation is not all that different than kidnapping them at gunpoint. Worse, such a multi-year ordeal as the defendant in this case went through is bound to be highly stressful, and stress is linked with a whole host of medical conditions, which means it's probably better to compare something like this to kidnapping somebody and torturing them.

      I do not have all the facts. If matters are substantially as presented in the article, with no mitigating factors, then the plaintiff is guilty of violating this right, which certainly should have negative legal consequences for the plaintiff. It follows that the judge making the ruling in the plaintiff's favor was either incompetent or unethical.

      You want the system to work differently? Talk to your legislators. Until then, lawyer up.

      It doesn't depend on the legislators. The 9th Amendment has been in existence for almost as long as the country has existed. Getting the government to act correctly in the presence of existing law is the challenge. It shouldn't be difficult, but in practice it is. The US legal profession has many ethical conflicts of interest with respect to recognizing the authority of the 9th Amendment, and this tends to throw roadblocks in the way of justice on many occasions.

      Assuming the facts of the case are as they appear, then the applicable federal law seems to be 18 USC 242:

      "Whoever, under color of any law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or custom, willfully subjects any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or to different punishments, pains, or penalties, on account of such person being an alien, or by reason of his color, or race, than are prescribed for the punishment of citizens, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both; and if bodily injury results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include the use, attempted use, or threatened use of a dangerous weapon, explosives, or fire, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexu

    8. Re:Don't try to defend a lawsuit yourself. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Assuming the facts of the case are as they appear, then the applicable federal law seems to be 18 USC 242:

      Another choice might be 42 USC 1983 which imposes liability on any person who, under color of state law, deprives another individual of his or her federal civil rights.

      "Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress, except that in any action brought against a judicial officer for an act or omission taken in such officer's judicial capacity, injunctive relief shall not be granted unless a declaratory decree was violated or declaratory relief was unavailable. For the purposes of this section, any Act of Congress applicable exclusively to the District of Columbia shall be considered to be a statute of the District of Columbia."

      18 USC 242, while recognizing is that depriving somebody of his or her federal rights is wrong, is written in a highly ambiguous manner. It could be taken to apply only when a race issue or something similar is present - something that an ethical legal profession would have fixed a long time ago.

      To make matter worse, in practice many jurisdictions routinely ignore most or all issues brought under 18 USC 242. This in itself can be taken as a violation of the oaths being sworn by the various government officials involved, plus a huge legal ethics problem, but in practical terms if the government refuses to prosecute law-breaking by it's own officials that creates a huge problem for bringing cases against third parties.

  18. An injustice, but easily avoided. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is why I don't want to sell anything like this. Oh sure, I might make some money here and there. Friends will say, "You should have a garage sale." Why? So I can make a couple hundred dollars (that I have to pay tax on, BTW), and take on the possibility of getting sued? While strangers come over and case out my house?

    I have to ask myself, what is my goal? It is to get rid of junk. Better to just dispose of it, donate it, send it to the recycler's. Then it's gone. No hassle, no taxes, no liability.

    1. Re:An injustice, but easily avoided. by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Actually no. You don't pay taxes on garage sale income as long as you are selling things for less money than the lesser of what the item is actually worth and what you paid for them.

    2. Re:An injustice, but easily avoided. by wcrowe · · Score: 1

      Not it my city. Get caught without a permit to hold a garage sale, and you'll pay a fine. Neglect to pay sales taxes on the garage sale you got a permit for, and you're in even bigger trouble.

      --
      Proverbs 21:19
    3. Re:An injustice, but easily avoided. by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Yes, you need a permit to have a garage sale, but unless you are running a business of holding garage sales, then as long as you are selling things for less than you paid for them, the sales are not reportable.

    4. Re:An injustice, but easily avoided. by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      Sales taxes, perhaps. But he's talking about income taxes.

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    5. Re:An injustice, but easily avoided. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nonsense. Sales taxes don't work like that. You have to be in the business of selling to be required to collect sales tax. One off sales and events like garage sales staged by people who don't make garage sales their full time job are not subject to sales tax requirements. Its also an unpublished rule but most jurisdictions don't go after mom and pop sellers until mom and pop have been shown to have $20k in receivables. That's usually the point where they treat it like a real business. That's been the magic number for eBay sellers for awhile.

      As for "licenses" that's another story and depends on your zip code. Suburbs are nasty places generally governed/inhabited by horrible right wingers obsessed with property values. They don't want yard sales lest they ding property values by attracting poors in their cars to stop and shop. In big cities nobody will generally notice or care and there likely is no "license."

    6. Re:An injustice, but easily avoided. by wcrowe · · Score: 1

      I'm not talking about income taxes. I'm talking about sales taxes.

      --
      Proverbs 21:19
    7. Re:An injustice, but easily avoided. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No. Not nonsense. I've lived here over twenty years and I know what the law is. The state tax commission expects you to pay a sales tax on your garage sale, even if you are only doing it once or twice a year. The sales tax form is given out along with the permit.

    8. Re:An injustice, but easily avoided. by mark-t · · Score: 1

      If you have a sales tax form when you get a garage sale permit, then all you have to do is collect the sales tax. You don't pay it out of your profits, you simply remit the taxes that you collected from the buyers. If you don't charge it, then obviously it comes out of your own pocket, but presumably you will, since you would have all the appropriate registration for it anyways.

    9. Re:An injustice, but easily avoided. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Depends on the state. In California, as long as the garage sale is no more than two in a 12-month period, are selling personal household items, and for less than originally paid, the sales are exempt from both sales and income tax. Any deviation from the above and it is seen as a business, which requires a sellers permit. If you are selling business assets or make a profit, the gain or loss must be reported.

    10. Re:An injustice, but easily avoided. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Um, yeah. Riiiight. I'll just collect the sales tax from the buyers. Well, anyway, thanks for perfectly illustrating why I don't do garage sales any more, which was the whole point of my original post.

    11. Re:An injustice, but easily avoided. by mark-t · · Score: 1

      The buyers live in the same jurisdiction as you and would therefore presumably be aware that you were legally obliged to charge sales tax on everything, so it should hardly come as a surprise.

  19. Also donations are tax deductible by SuperKendall · · Score: 1, Informative

    If you are at the threshold of itemized deductions donating an item can make almost as much money as selling it used, since you can write off donated items.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    1. Re:Also donations are tax deductible by HornWumpus · · Score: 2

      If you're just going to makeup values, why not just makeup the donations in the first place?

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    2. Re:Also donations are tax deductible by SuperKendall · · Score: 1

      If the mere fact that it's wrong to do so doesn't do anything for you, there's also the issue of having no records to support deductions in an audit...

      Anything we donate we take pictures of and have an official receipt from Goodwill (which admittedly they just have you fill out yourself).

      But basically the reasons to actually donate it are more fundamental: 1) It's out of your house. 2) It's possibly going to someone who can actually use/enjoy it. Those are the same reasons to sell or donate...

      --
      "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
    3. Re:Also donations are tax deductible by pla · · Score: 1

      If you're just going to makeup values, why not just makeup the donations in the first place?

      Who said anything about making up values? The amount for which you (or rather, GoodWill) could sell a used item effectively defines its value as a charitable donation.

      No, you can't claim that old pair of jeans as having a thousand dollars in "sentimental" value; but if used-printer-X routinely sells for $50 on eBay, you can safely claim it on your taxes for $50.

    4. Re:Also donations are tax deductible by rahvin112 · · Score: 1

      The IRS has cracked down massively on these type of deductions. You now need IIRC 2% of your AGI in property donations for them to even be able to be itemized. For the vast majority of people that's going to put them off the list. They did this because of the charitable vehicle donations where people were donating piles of junk and claiming full black book value for a mint condition. Itemizing charitable property donations these days is probably an audit flag.

    5. Re:Also donations are tax deductible by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      SuperKendal clearly implied inflated values.

      If you are at the threshold of itemized deductions donating an item can make almost as much money as selling it used, since you can write off donated items.

      To do that you divide the actual value by your marginal tax rate. (e.g. $50/0.35 = $143).

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    6. Re:Also donations are tax deductible by Mass+Overkiller · · Score: 1

      I donate to Goodwill all the time. I shop there for their selection of electronic goodies I can buy for a buck or three. I care less about making $20 on an old printer when I can donate it and take the write off and have someone else buy it and use it for $5. Even if the write off is $0 I still donate to the Goodwill because as stated before its out of my house and someone else can use it.

  20. Someone hasn't popped a cap in his ass? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is America after all, I'm surprised that one of the hapless defendants hasn't snapped and gone postal.

    (not that I approve of that kind of behavior)

  21. Ukraine-born U.S. citizen... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1
  22. Confuscian Wisdom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    He who goes to bed with itchy butt wake up with smelly finger

  23. Justice must be blind, but not stupid. by OpenSourced · · Score: 2

    Edens acknowledged the amount is "seemingly high" and the judgment "may seem extreme for the breach of contract for the purchase of a printer." But he wrote that he's constrained by how the Supreme Court had previously interpreted a state trial rule

    He certainly didn't find himself constrained by common sense.

    --
    Rome taught me patience and assiduous application to detail. Virtues which temper the boldness of great, general views.
    1. Re:Justice must be blind, but not stupid. by Kjella · · Score: 1

      He certainly didn't find himself constrained by common sense.

      Trial judges mainly deal with matters of fact like did you hit that guy and steal his wallet, how badly was he hurt, how much was stolen, are you a first time offender and what's the sentencing guidelines for that. Their primary job is to make sure the legal system is consistent and procedure is followed so if there's precedent, even one leading to an unreasonable outcome they're going to follow that almost no matter what. A good trial judge is one that doesn't create conflicting judgments where there was none, particularly since one trial court can't set precedent for anyone. If they don't like it, they're likely to give you ammunition for an appeal but they won't challenge it.

      Instead it got taken to the appeals court, which found that the rule was not absolute. That precedent is now binding on the trial courts who can use this in similar cases. The trial judge knew that, if there was a problem with the law that needed fixing here it was above his authority to fix it. But judges can't just say pass, I'm escalating this case. They have to make a judgement and let the loser appeal it. It's entirely possible that the same judge would have made a different decision as an appellate judge instead of a trial judge, but in his role there wasn't really any other choice.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
  24. countersue by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    He should counter-sue for barratry, libel, slander, arson, extortion, jaywalking and anything else he can think of.

    About a million - nah, make it two - should be about right.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    1. Re:countersue by kwiecmmm · · Score: 1

      Actually this is the solution. He needs to counter sue for lost time and wages, and for his lawyer's expenses for these lawsuits and the counter suit one.

      I am pretty sure that if these facts are all accurate and true, he could easily get a judgement of about $100,000 in his favor. And he might be able to stop this guy from doing this to other people.

      Unfortunately this is the only way that Doug Costello could probably get our legal system to work for him.

  25. Barratry by phorm · · Score: 2

    How is this not Barratry or Vexatious Litigation?

  26. Just another immigrant abusing the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Help us, God Emperor Trump. You're our only hope.

  27. Re:Awesome legal hacking by plaintiff by mi · · Score: 0

    The way to prove laws are unjust is not to make it a terrible hardship for an innocent bystander.

    We do not know, whether the plaintiff's intent was to expose the flaws in the state's legal system. Nor do we know, the target really was innocent, actually. Quite possibly, pan Zavodnik had a valid case — and if he didn't, Indiana should've dismissed his cases (he filed many) years ago.

    But I'd be happy to hear your proposals on how to correct flaws in such a system... Raise awareness, perhaps? Print buttons, colored ribbons, and bumper stickers: "Abolish Rule #36"?

    Every time someone uses the legal system to get at someone else in a way we deem "unjust", the bulk of our anger must be aimed not at the hacker, but at the system itself. Because as long as it remains there, it could be used against any one of us.

    This is not the same as the case of hacker exploiting a weakness in a personal computer or a door lock — those are maintained by the victims themselves. No, this system and run by the establishment, but the victims are private citizens (and businesses). Whether it is a maliciously sent SWAT, or a case like this, the system is to blame first and foremost.

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
  28. Can someone explain US justice to me? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In the UK, small claims court expects that people will not have legal representation. Anyway, if you're being hit with an idiot case, you spend a few hours researching how to conduct yourself online - a lawyer won't help because the judge still has to be convinced by the other party, and pure bullshit is not convincing. So, why do people hit with such frivolous lawsuits end up with huge legal bills? What are they having to spend money on?

    1. Re:Can someone explain US justice to me? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A retainer fee for a US attorney costs about $10k. That's just to get him on the case.

  29. Have some sanity checks in loser pays... by Firethorn · · Score: 2

    The simple solution here would be to have some sane limits.

    IE if plaintiff #1 spends $5k on the case and loses against a guy who spends $100k, maybe #1's liability should be limited to something around $5k.

    Or have the judge make a decision -
    without basis: loser pays
    has basis: IE the situation was complicated enough that yes, a court was needed. No court costs.

    Note: "No basis" would include a company dragged into court for something it should darn well have paid for earlier and without the fuss.

    --
    I don't read AC A human right
    1. Re:Have some sanity checks in loser pays... by ewibble · · Score: 1

      I think the sane solution is to actually limit spending on both sides, In a fair legal system the person who wins should be the one with the better legal case, not the one with the most money.

      The legal system is supposed to be fair, money should not buy you power over the legal system. I understand that this goes against the American philosophy of money should buy you power. The American dream of being rich and screwing the little guy. This also goes for the political system as well. Spending money is free speech and so forth.

      I actually don't see why you couldn't have a system where both parties present their cases with non-lawyers and a judge decides the legal implications or informs a jury of the legal issues. I understand this is the case for small claims, but why not for larger cases too?

      Or maybe allow entities to spend millions of dollars in their claims/defense if they truly believe the case is so complicated that it needs that money to be spent, but for every dollar they spend give their opponent the same value for their legal fees so they can mount an equally complicated defense.

    2. Re:Have some sanity checks in loser pays... by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      I actually don't see why you couldn't have a system where both parties present their cases with non-lawyers and a judge decides the legal implications or informs a jury of the legal issues. I understand this is the case for small claims, but why not for larger cases too?

      As you mention, we have that for small claims. The argument is that large cases are where it does end up being complicated enough and high enough value to have the higher monetary cost of legal representation being standard.

      Another problem is that when you sue a business, it only makes sense for the business to employ a lawyer to represent them - best return on the dollar, even though lawyers are expensive. So you need a lawyer to oppose their lawyer.

      One could make the argument that the level of money small claims court can hear should be increased, but I think that we can both agree that two companies fighting it out in court over a multi-million claim is going to involved lawyers.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
  30. 30k? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    For just 10k I get a guy in Russia that will end this problem once and for all, why should I pay you 30k?

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    1. Re:30k? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The plaintiff is Ukrainian. I'm sure you could find a Russian who'd "fix" it for a lot less than 10k.

  31. Ukraine strikes again? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Zavodnik, a native of Ukraine who moved to the United States in 1987 under a grant of political asylum

    Has anything good ever come out of Ukraine?

  32. The RIAA... by OakDragon · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The RIAA should have this guy on the payroll.

  33. Did he sign for the letter? by pellik · · Score: 1

    He claimed he never received the letters before the default judgement. Shouldn't the plaintiff be required to show proof that the letter was received? Otherwise he could just never send letters and win default judgement after default judgement.

    1. Re:Did he sign for the letter? by Kierthos · · Score: 1

      IANAL, but I would assume that it would have to be sent via registered mail (or similar mechanism). Otherwise, how can you possibly prove that they got it and then ignored it?

      --
      Mr. Hu is not a ninja.
    2. Re:Did he sign for the letter? by argee · · Score: 1

      Generally, when a lawsuit is first filed, it is served by Certified Mail or by a process server. However, SUBSEQUENT
      filings etc are simply mailed "to the address of record, first class." Having established an address of record by the
      first small claims suit, all after that was by first class mail. I see a little wiggle room here in that the small claims
      was dismissed, but since the "admissions" pertained to this case, it probably was legally correct.

    3. Re:Did he sign for the letter? by tsstahl · · Score: 1

      Shouldn't the plaintiff be required to show proof that the letter was received?

      Sure. You sign a piece of paper that reads in essence, "I sent this to him on this date, I promise under penalty of perjury". After initial service, US Mail is usually sufficient for notice to other parties in a case.

      Judges keep recusing themselves because they don't want to deal with an ass of a litigant like the smarmy fellow in the article. They could declare him a vexatious litigant and impose sanctions, or more strict rules of conduct, but they'd rather kick the can down the road.

  34. Vexacious Litigant by AnalogDiehard · · Score: 1

    It's high time to add this slimeball Gersh Zavodnik to the ranks of vexacious litigants who abuse the law system. In the article a judge who dismissed his case has already highlighted the plaintiff's abuse of process.

    --
    Eternity: will that be smoking, or non-smoking? I Corinthians 6:9-10
  35. Re:Awesome legal hacking by plaintiff by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The obvious question is whether he was actually served with the request to admit. I don't think he was, if he was, then there is a problem in that he didn't respond. Everyone should know you don't ignore a court case otherwise you will lose by default.

  36. Insane by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's not the buyer an idiot only, but a country with its legal system that facilitates such acting.

  37. That's It by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nobody sell anything ever in under any conditions to Gersh Zavodnik. Let him grow his own food on a rented land.

  38. He probably broke it himself... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seriously, you don't have 30k in "damage" when the product you got only cost you $75. This is why the justice system is broken... And this is not even the first time this a-hole does this.

    1. Re:He probably broke it himself... by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      This is why the justice system is broken...

      Clever and/or persistent trolls can screw up and/or find holes in ANY SYSTEM, similar to good hackers. If you peck, probe, and obsess long enough, you can probably muck your way into ANY system: legal, technical, and administrative.

      I cannot fault the legal system itself in this case so far, other than perhaps for not recognizing law-trolls sooner and putting a summary cap on them. But that would probably require an act of Congress, being each local and state jurisdiction probably has their own peculiarities that can be milked by a good troll.

      I've encountered persistent jerks myself. They are scary people.

  39. The problem is pro-se litigants by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Lay people should not be allowed to file pro-se. I'm sorry but today the number of lunatic sovereign citizen wackos and basically homeless people filing dozens of nonsense claims trolling for settlements against literally anybody they run into is overwhelming the small claims and lower district courts. It is a massive problem. They abuse the system like crazy and it can take years to get a vexatious litigant order in place against them preventing these lunatics from filing lawsuits. They've ruined the system and the only reform that will work is preventing all non-lawyers from filing suit. The ambulance chasers have licenses they risk. The reality is lawyers generally do no file frivolous actions. Its too expensive and endangers their licenses. They also have houses and assets they aren't about to risk. These pro-se lunatics are literally living in homeless shelters half the time.

  40. Re:Awesome legal hacking by plaintiff by internerdj · · Score: 1

    Don't documents have to be served in a way that reasonably verifies receipt unless such a method of delivery is impossible?

  41. 1099 him? by Firethorn · · Score: 1

    Sending him a 1099 for stuff like that? I'd have to think about it, but it sounds evil. Especially if they still lose.

    That being said, they can deduct legal expenses, so it ends up being a wash.

    --
    I don't read AC A human right
    1. Re:1099 him? by mysidia · · Score: 1

      That being said, they can deduct legal expenses, so it ends up being a wash.

      Only certain legal expenses are deductible. Certain ones are not.... Attorneys' fees required to defend against or prosecute a civil suit are not in general deductible, unless its job/work related or taxable income is the outcome of the suit.

  42. Taxes. LOL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dude, the taxes thing is really dumb.

    Nobody pays taxes on selling a few hundred bucks at a garage sale, because you always sell them for less than what you paid for them.

    You've just being ridiculous now.

  43. INS by Major+Blud · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Did anyone else notice this?

    "Zavodnik, a native of Ukraine who moved to the United States in 1987 under a grant of political asylum"

    I'm assuming that he went to the U.S. to escape the U.S.S.R., but that fell to pieces a few years after arriving. I don't know what his current immigration status is, but wouldn't asylum eventually be revoked? Seems like you wouldn't get granted asylum from a government that no longer exist (barring the current political crisis with Crimea, which occurred over 20 years after he left).

    --
    If you post as Anonymous Coward, don't expect a reply.
    1. Re:INS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The government of the USSR still exists. Russia is the legal successor state, the factions and national members of the party remain entrenched in the former Soviet Republics, and they're mostly allied to Russia. Under Putin the KGB has been resurrected and re-instated as the supreme power as well, as it was in pre-reform Soviet days. A government doesn't cease to exist just because some borders change and the name gets a refresh.

    2. Re:INS by radarskiy · · Score: 1

      "Seems like you wouldn't get granted asylum from a government that no longer exist "

      Although if you follow that line of argument, you can't be deported back to a country that no longer exists.

    3. Re:INS by Espectr0 · · Score: 1

      Hate to tell you, but you only need a good lawyer to get a political asylum. Lots of Venezuelans have fled the country, citing "persecution by the government" when they actually are just fleeing from the economic crisis

    4. Re:INS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not in today's PC society. We can't throw someone out who established a life here.

  44. Some people deserve to be shot in the head. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Zavodnik is one such person.

    1. Re:Some people deserve to be shot in the head. by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      Nah, just locked up a good long time. No violence, please.

      Basically Zavodnik a legal troll: bleeps around with people for the shear hell of it.

  45. and in some case it leads to companies fine print by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 2, Insightful

    and in some case it leads to companies fine print saying we will use our Million dollar legal team on you.

  46. Hacking Gersh Zavodnik by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    People in Indiana each send him many thousands of requests, each claiming many thousands in damages. He will not possibly be able to reply to all of them. Where he fails to reply within 30 days, it is a clear admission of guilt.

  47. crowdsource? by roc97007 · · Score: 1

    "Gersh Zavodnik, the printer's buyer, has been described as "prolific, abusive litigant" who has brought dozens of lawsuits against individuals and businesses. He often asks for "astronomical" damages."

    Isn't there any way to turn the Internet loose on this guy?

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    1. Re:crowdsource? by JustNiz · · Score: 1

      Fuck the Internet, this guy needs to be sued for everything he owns. Lets see how what he has to say when his game is biting him in the ass.

    2. Re:crowdsource? by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      That's kind-of where I was going. Say, a few thousand people sue him for being a dick.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
  48. Need to start a class-action crowd funded lawsuit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just a thought: someone should bring justice and start a class-action crowd-funded counter-lawsuit against Gersh Zavodnik .

  49. America at its best by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hell yeah, freedom to sue for any bullshit reason.
    Ain't it great to live in such a wonderful country ? Free weapons and free sueing for everybody.
    Vote Republican and you too will be able to sue negroes, climate change supporters, lebians, gays, transgender, latinos etc...

  50. Re:Awesome legal hacking by plaintiff by whoever57 · · Score: 1

    But I'd be happy to hear your proposals on how to correct flaws in such a system... Raise awareness, perhaps? Print buttons, colored ribbons, and bumper stickers: "Abolish Rule #36"?

    Here is mine: require the judge to enquire into the factual basis of the amount of the claim and then limit any award to a reasonable amount, instead of just accepting the amount claimed by the plaintiff.

    --
    The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
  51. That's a problem too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If the penalty scales with net worth then you still have a big problem:

    The poor who get advocate/activist lawyers. I had a family member who was repeatedly dragged through the courts by a mentally ill person with no resources but an uncanny ability to convince various lawyers working for the "less fortunate" to take up her cases. She lost every case over the years but my relative spent a mountain of money defending these cases and would have recovered nothing with a "loser pays" system.

    Before the 1960s and 1970s when the huge wave of "consumer advocates", activist lawyers led by Ralph Nader and friends (many of whom later become activist judges), and advocacy lawyers etc our legal system had responsible judges who did their jobs. Those judges tossed-out baseless lawsuits. It was part of the basic job of judges to toss suits that any competent lawyer/judge knew full-well was frivolous/malicious/baseless leaving the courts to deal with legitimate cases. The rise in all the activism and the hyper-legalization of society assisted by activist judges who used to be activist lawyers is the primary reason why our legal system is now so completely clogged that no matter how much more money we throw at it every year nobody truly gets a "speedy trial" any more and inmates on death row are more likely to die of old age than from an encounter with a needle or bullet or rope or "old sparky".

    Everyone with a case deserves his day in court... but that might just be to see a judge who yells "get this idiocy out of my court!, and GROW UP!". Nobody is entitled to YEARS in the courts, unless they can show they were victims of legal hanky-panky.

    1. Re:That's a problem too by demonlapin · · Score: 1

      There is often a strategic element to delaying trial, on the part of the defendant. If he's reasonably certain that he will be convicted, it is highly advantageous to delay the trial for years, because nearly all sentences include credit for time served. If you were arrested, put on trial two weeks later, and sentenced a week after that to three years, you do most of your sentence in prison - more dangerous, almost certainly far from family for visits, etc. But if you delay the trial for two and a half years, lose, and then get sentenced two months later, you only have four months left to serve - and you did the first 32 months in county/city lockup, which is a much easier stretch. Bonus: because you have less than a year left on your sentence, they almost certainly won't even bother sending you to the state prison. You'll do the whole time in local jail.

  52. Zavodnik is the type of guy... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...I'd love to run across when he's lost in a barren desert in the mid morning of a scorching summer day and he has been there for a couple days and hasn't had water in 24 hours and doesn't have a satellite phone and there's virtually no possibility of another person coming by in the next few weeks.

    He can see my big jugs of ice water in my air conditioned off SUVs, he can watch me drink and even pour ice water over my head to cool down with the excess disappearing into the sand.

    He finds that every time he stumbles closer to my vehicles, we move just another 50 yards away.

    That could amuse me for a couple of hours while I reminded him what a disgusting human being he is.

    Maybe, if I was in a really good mood, I'd remember to call for help for him when I got somewhere cell phone reception, but there are SO many interesting things to look at in nature, I'm not sure that would happen all that soon.

    Couldn't happen to a nicer guy!

  53. Re:Awesome legal hacking by plaintiff by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yeah, that's all good and clever. Except it's pretty much the same as blaming the knife when somebody stabs you.

    People who do bad things are bad people, no matter what tool they choose to use.

  54. Re:Awesome legal hacking by plaintiff by omnichad · · Score: 1

    "Abolish Rule #36"?

    Can't we abolish Rule 34 first?

  55. A better resolution for Costello.... by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

    Costello would have been better off in the long run if Zavodnick had just hit him on the head and jacked his car, like all those other Craigslist buyers.

    Stories like this are why whenever I finish with some consumer item that still has some useful life, whether it be a printer or an SLR camera with a set of original lenses, I just give it to my local thrift and take a modest writeoff for the item.

  56. Default by Spazmania · · Score: 3

    "Because Costello did not respond to all three requests for admissions within 30 days of receiving them, and did not ask for an extension of time, as required by Indiana trial rules, Costello admitted to the liabilities and damages by default. He also did not appear at a July 2013 hearing, according to court records."

    Courts don't like to be ignored. It's the worst possible thing you can do.

    Respond promptly and equivocate: "I do not concede your claim. I expect to deny your claim." Equivocation lets you back away from a statement later if it turns out you were wrong or if the statement could have had some unintended legal meaning.

    --
    Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
    1. Re:Default by Enigma2175 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The issue here is that there is no evidence that he was ever served with the requests for admissions (he says he wasn't):

      "Costello said he never received the requests for admissions and was not notified of the hearing."

      I don't know how process serving works in that state, but in my state there is a record if someone was served with a summons or legal document. It seems inane that there appears to be no such verification in this case.

      --

      Enigma

    2. Re:Default by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't know if I can understand your last phrase. Your advice seem to be for the defendant to give a misleading answer, but "I do not concede your claim" seems the right thing to say and not misleading at all. *Sigh*... English!

      The judge seems to think the defendant chose not to defend himself; nevertheless, this nearly immaterial ($40 or $75). It seems the judge is not a very busy man if he wants to be entertained by such cases. The logical thing would be to order a reimbursement of such amounts.

      OTOH, these individuals who claim a $30,000 damage from a cheap used printer should be prosecuted by the Court. This amounts to trolling the Judge. It's totally disrespectful and doesn't show elementary common sense. Don't you have some sort of "small causes" Court in the USA?

      This is preposterous.

    3. Re:Default by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Given the summary my guess is that the buyer intentionally broke the printer that he bought just to create a case.
      It wouldn't surprise me if the state was chosen specifically because it has loopholes that makes it possible to get a head start.

    4. Re:Default by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You could mail the documents and then go steal them from his mailbox. The legal system is just awesome that way.

    5. Re:Default by Spazmania · · Score: 2

      equivocate:

      use ambiguous language so as to conceal the truth or avoid committing oneself

      "I do not concede your claim" neither agrees nor disagrees with the claim. It makes no commitment, no statement of truth. It answers a yes/no question with "maybe."

      --
      Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
    6. Re: Default by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps the judge is in on the racket and pockets 50% for himself.

    7. Re:Default by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You could mail the documents and then go steal them from his mailbox. The legal system is just awesome that way.

      At least in the US stealing postal mail is a federal crime punishable by a prison term and/or a fine. Any lawyer engaging in theft from the US Postal Service faces possible disbarment. I say possible disbarment because some lawyers have criminal convictions and yet can still practise law.

    8. Re:Default by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      90% of Illegal Immigrants do just that and it works out great for them. But for this refugee from the Ukraine; The Courts pull out the long knives on this U.S. Citizen. What a selectively self defeating system we have here. And still, all the smart people can't figure out why Trump is on his way to be our next President.

    9. Re:Default by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, this elder man is a scofflaw, probably one of the very worst I've read about in a Craig's List horror story. Certainly, his thievery tops the brutality of the now infamous Polish guy who purchased the beautiful, young female Pitty, (just shut it, all of those who hate everything including Pit Bulls) for the sole purpose of torturing it to death over a long period of time and once "Mission Completed" dumped the destroyed dog in a Quincy, MA public park. The Printer Playa is what makes the USA such a joke to so many other developed nations. We, the wealthiest nation on earth, are the laughably litigious. Interesting name, the plaintiff has, btw. It makes me wonder if he or his ancesters immigrated to the US for the sole purpose of suing everyone possible because it's possibly the easiest ticket to unearned wealth and possibly the only thing still Made In America.

    10. Re: Default by interstellarsurfer · · Score: 1

      Some states have (recently) corrupted laws, tailor made for debt-collectors. They do not require you actually, or correctly, be served. They Aldo grant default judgement against you when you fail to appear for the court date you weren't served notice of. Welcome to 'Merica!

    11. Re:Default by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It really depends on what the criminal conviction was. If it was because they got busted smoking pot or were drunk in public or even for petty theft, I wouldn't care.

      If they got busted for smoking crack, a violent crime or grand theft, then they should never be allowed to practice law again.

  57. Loser Pays Isn't Justice by mx+b · · Score: 1

    Loser pays would also make it basically impossible to sue any entity that has more money than you. The risk would be far too great, even if you had a legitimate dispute.

    Let the judge award "loser pays" only after meeting a high threshold. Such as in situations where no rational person would consider it a legitimate dispute.

    I agree. In the state Pennsylvania, state cases have a loser pays provision. You pay a filing fee but will get it awarded back to you if you win your case, as well as reasonable legal fees, etc. Without going into the whole crazy story, I found myself suing an old landlord for damages. While I won the initial case, the landlord was able to appeal... and appeal again after that. I couldn't keep paying the attorney fees to keep going further and so ended up settling, which cost me something like net $1500, rather than winning the $1500 in damages I was hoping for. While that may seem small to some of you, at the time I basically was making minimum wage and used my savings to do it. It wasn't sustainable. Based on that experience, I'd only go to court if I knew I was able to fight all the way to the top state courts, because that's pretty much what you're in for if your opponent has money.

    If you're on minimum wage and can't pay the up front filing fees and attorney fees, you're screwed. In principle, you'd get it back -- but how are you going to get the money to initiate it in the first place? And what happens if you do end up losing? The poor in our country get no justice.

  58. Abuse of process? by JeffOwl · · Score: 1

    It would seem like the defendant could counter-sue for abuse of process, but I'm not even a secretary for a lawyer so I may be speaking incoherently.

  59. Jurisdiction? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Where did Mr Costello live when he sold the printer? Was it in Mass? If so, why would Indiana even have jurisdiction in this? Assuming Mr Costello lived in MA at the time and advertised on a LOCAL Craigslist, I should think Indiana laws would not apply at all.

  60. meh I'm getting fncked by insurance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So I had a smallish accident a couple years ago where I skidded on ice onto a guy's door. Cost approx $2000 to fix.

    Unfortunately I backed into a guy's truck a few weeks ago. Causing about $100 of damage scuff to the door. It was a company vehicle.
    They refused to do the deal out of pocket. The insurance company are now raising my rate by about $100 a month. So I figure that $100 scuff is going to cost me at least $6000 before it rolls off my policy.

    And there is *zero* I can do about it.

  61. Re:and in some case it leads to companies fine pri by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

    In some jurisdictions, I believe the law allows the judge to award costs to the victor, i.e., the loser pays, but as with damages the actual amount is at the discretion of the judge. That means if HugeMegaCorp, Inc. turn up with a "million dollar" legal team to defend a hundred buck trial against a customer who feels they were unfairly treated, and the customer's complaint isn't upheld by the court but the case had genuine merit, the judge can decide to award less than the million dollar legal fees.

    --
    If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  62. Re:Awesome legal hacking by plaintiff by Raenex · · Score: 1

    Every time someone uses the legal system to get at someone else in a way we deem "unjust", the bulk of our anger must be aimed not at the hacker, but at the system itself. Because as long as it remains there, it could be used against any one of us.

    I don't think you'd feel this way if you were the one being faced with a bill for a $30,000 court-ordered settlement over a $40 printer. My anger is first at foremost at the asshole abusing the system, then the system.

  63. Now Google will be sued... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...And the Indianapolis Star, and USA Today, and Kristine Guerra, and me, Anonymous Coward.

    Happy now Manishs?

    It does raise a question about frivolous lawsuits. One of the things the legal system has to deal with.

  64. Re:Awesome legal hacking by plaintiff by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 1

    We do not know, whether the plaintiff's intent was to expose the flaws in the state's legal system.

    Actually, we do know the intent of the plaintiff. He is well-known by the court system (which comes up repeatedly in rulings) for buying stuff online and then suing people. Perhaps he's trying to make a living out of it. But his so-called "exposure" of the "flaws" in Rule 36 only came very late in the process after he had already sought ridiculous action in small claims court and the case had been dismissed. Are you seriously claiming that he filed a case in small claims court under a ridiculous premise so it could be dismissed and then several years later he could take another action to "expose the flaws in the state's legal system"?

    Nor do we know, the target really was innocent, actually.

    Actually, we do know that the "target" was "innocent," because this is a civil action. The DEFENDANT was either found LIABLE or NOT. (You may want to bother to learn some legal terminology before commenting on what you think is wrong with the system.)

    But, even IF the defendant was liable, there is no possible circumstance under which I can imagine that a person should be found liable for a defective $40 printer and have to pay out $6000 to a plaintiff (which was asked for in the first case in small claims court), let alone the $30,000 adjudicated in the later court case. Well, I suppose if the defendant had deliberately and maliciously made modifications to the printer to cause serious injury to the person he sold it to (e.g., printer has new installation that shoots strong acid out at user when turned on), MAYBE I could that -- but there was no claim of anything so dire except the printer may have been defective. At most, the plaintiff should be entitled to the cost of replacement plus a nominal fee for his trouble, no more than a few hundred dollars at most.

    This whole thing was ridiculous from the very beginning.

    Quite possibly, pan Zavodnik had a valid case â" and if he didn't, Indiana should've dismissed his cases (he filed many) years ago.

    Did you even bother reading TFA?? Indiana DID dismiss the case he filed in small claims court. It's unclear why it was even allowed to go forward in a superior court, except that the plaintiff appears to be a lunatic who pestered and annoyed judges and filed motions to have them recused so much that many finally relented... and he probably eventually got a judge who agreed to let them matter go forward. That sounds like blatant abuse of the court system by the plaintiff, not the other way around.

    But I'd be happy to hear your proposals on how to correct flaws in such a system... Raise awareness, perhaps? Print buttons, colored ribbons, and bumper stickers: "Abolish Rule #36"?

    Uh, once again, RTFA. Also, follow the link in the article to read the actual court ruling... you might learn something. For example, you might learn that Rule 36 actually sounds pretty reasonable as written -- and in its text EXPLICITLY gives discretion to the courts about when to throw out these sorts of demands. And there have been conflicting rulings in the past (which were cited by the higher court ruling) that make the lower court's award of $30,000 a bit ridiculous. The lower court chose a particular reading of Rule 36 that seems incongruous with the way it has often been interpreted... which is why it was reversed on appeal.

    Sometimes there's nothing wrong with Rule 36 -- sometimes it's just a judge in error. (And, in this case, it wouldn't surprise me that a judge screwed something up given how much the plaintiff participated in blatant judge shopping.)

    Every time someone uses the legal system to get at someone else in a way we deem "unjust", the bulk of our anger must be aimed not at the hacker, but at the system itself. Because as long as it remains there, it could be used against a

  65. Where is Anonymous on this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wonder if this guy is on Anonymous' radar.

  66. That's a myth. by Ihlosi · · Score: 1
    Alternatively, that benefits large companies who can when through sheer will and money and add another burden to the loser as well as letting the company recoup its costs

    No. Simply because you can't get money from a rock. If you sue a large company, lose, and bankrupt yourself in the process, the company can try as much as they want to "recoup" money from you. It's just not there. (Something like that happened to McDonald's in the UK, trying to silence two penniless critics with a libel suit. They ended up with a long, expensive, messy lawsuit and unable to recoup any of their costs).

    add another burden to the loser

    Well, then maybe you should settle if you think you're about to lose? And if you get sued and win the case, why should you have to bear the costs for being the right?

    1. Re:That's a myth. by JackieBrown · · Score: 1

      add another burden to the loser

      Well, then maybe you should settle if you think you're about to lose? And if you get sued and win the case, why should you have to bear the costs for being the right?

      That's nice that you assume winning = being right.

    2. Re:That's a myth. by Ihlosi · · Score: 1
      That's nice that you assume winning = being right.

      Legally, that is the case. And in a court, you'll get a legal decision.

  67. de minimus non curate lex. the law does not concer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    the fact that the sale of a cheap used printer could spawn such a legal nightmare is a telling indictment on the American legal system

  68. The guy is from Ukraine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The plaintiff is from Ukraine belonging to a pro se non attorney litigation group trying to stop court system corruption. I rest my case.

  69. Trolling for 40 dollar printer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is so sad i would have just had him send it back and refund him his money. His multiple lawsuits against people for trivial things makes me wonder why someone has not sued him or worse sent him to prison

  70. Gersh Zavodnik by bluegutang · · Score: 1

    Anyone have his address and details? If we all send him "requests for admissions", and he neglects to reply to just a few of them, we should be able to bankrupt him.

  71. We need to remove money from legal system by Lord_Hastur · · Score: 1

    economics teaches about incentives, but far simpler is this: dont let government or lawyers charge for doing nothing, and bar them from creating fees ro penalties that raise issues to insanity like this, far far reduce judge and lawyer pay, they are overpaid government welfare workers and a drain making life harder for all, firing all of them and replacing with software and objective law and al lot of doing nothing but repairing injured party if a loss happens IOF it is liable, becasue liability is just an idea, and like many ideas is not applicable in many cases

  72. Stupid posters making useless posts by mi · · Score: 1

    Only because [...]

    There was no question "why". You've contributed 0 to the conversation and your posting failed to fail to suck. Try harder next time — should you feel it necessary for the "next time" to ever happen. Remember to logout.

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
  73. Typical by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Typical that this litigious asshole is not called John Smith or Steve Davis.. No, it's Gersh Zavodnik..

  74. Re:and in some case it leads to companies fine pri by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I actually have legal representation included in my home-insurance... the insurance costs me about $150 per year and covers court-costs (even if i loose) up to $50-60k.. If i loose i have to pay the insurance-company after the fact i lost.. So if i'm sure i will win i can choose to keep going for infinity..

  75. The system is designed to be abused... by ToddInSF · · Score: 1

    Scumbags like the litigant are not the exception, they are the rule.

  76. This article brought to you by our sponsor.. by interstellarsurfer · · Score: 1

    EBay. We promise you won't get sued for using our auction platform. Please don't use CL, it's bad for our business, as well as yours!

  77. could have been great by gzuckier · · Score: 1

    If only Zavodnik had taken a course at Trump U, but nooooooo.

    --
    Star Trek transporters are just 3d printers.
  78. Another sign for dissolving the current government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Crap like this just makes me pray for the destruction of the government, the fact that their efforts to create a "more efficient" court system opens up such flagrant abuses is typical for a government that couldn't care less about the people, just their special interest groups. The sad this is, debt collection groups use the same tactic to get their lawsuits won, flood the defendant such that they cannot respond to all the requests, and suddenly they win. There's going to be a lot of people burning in Hell for this sort of abuse.

  79. Costello Brought it on Himself by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Costello willfully ignored the requests for admission send by Zavodnik. The Michigan Rules of Judicial Procedure require those notices to be either served in process or sent via certified mail, return receipt, and they cannot be judged in default unless those process notices or return receipts are admitted along with the original request letters.

    So, the fact that they were judged in default means they were in fact properly served on Costello, and he simply ignored them.

    When you are sued, it is still your responsibility to know the laws and rules to which you are bound. Being a defendant in a civil case carries with it serious legal responsibilities.

    In my opinion, the Appellate court should have ruled that the $30,000 judgment was insufficient, and raised it to the $600,000 requested by Zavodnik, since Costello did not respond to it and therefore admitted the liability by default. The judge erred and ignored the law. The law may suck, but it is still the law.

  80. State supreme court disbarred him 2 years back by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I thought the Indiana Supreme Court disbarred him from filing additional lawsuits, unless his life was threatened.

    http://www.indystar.com/story/news/2014/10/01/enoughs-enough-indiana-supreme-court-tells-prolific-filer-lawsuits/16529893/