Facebook Will Track What Physical Stores You Go Into (popsci.com)

Facebook will soon roll out a feature that will allow advertisers to see which brick and mortar stores you've physically walked into. These details are collected from anyone who has the location services feature turned on, Facebook says. The will allow advertisers to see in real time which Facebook ads are turning into actual sales. Popular Science reports: Using the location services on your phone, Facebook will keep a tally of who goes to what stores, and show the anonymized numbers to advertisers, as evidence that buying ads on Facebook is getting people to visit brick-and-mortar businesses. It's a great thing for Facebook, which will now have excellent data to prove (or disprove) on a user-to-user basis what a store is getting for its advertising dollar. But it's a pretty frightening idea that a company will have information not unlike your credit card statement all from location services data.

Comments

Yep, you volunteered for this

[Anonymous Coward]

Turns out all you needed to do to get people to voluntarily wear a GPS tracker is tell them it makes talking to their friends easier.

Re:Yep, you volunteered for this

[BlueStrat]

Turns out all you needed to do to get people to voluntarily wear a GPS tracker is tell them it makes talking to their friends easier.

Not me.

The only cellphone I own is a "dumb" phone that I never use except to carry it with me when I'm out with the battery removed and taped to the back for use in an emergency. I also don't use any social media. I have plenty of friends and acquaintances that I have no trouble communicating with in the manner I wish.

I have skills and talents that people want, so they make the effort to contact me if they wish to benefit from them. It also helps screen those wishing to engage my time down to those who are worth my time.

Pretty much the same with credit/debit cards. I pay cash and plastic is for emergencies. I get next to zero spam email or USPS junk-mail as a result which also reduces my wasted time.

Strat

Re:Yep, you volunteered for this

[inode_buddha]

just checking in to say "me too"

Its amazing to me how many people seem to forget that life goes on just fine when everything is unplugged.... instead they start freaking out for some reason

Re:Yep, you volunteered for this

[StikyPad]

Let me guess -- you don't own a television either?

Re:Yep, you volunteered for this

[BlueStrat]

Let me guess. You're a big Alex Jones fan, amirite?

BRRRT!

Aww, sorry AC!

Johnny, give the man a consolation internets! Better luck next time!

AJ is waaay out there, LOL! I don't think they even *make* the composition of tin-foil he apparently fashions his personal head-wear from, anymore!

Strat

Re:Yep, you volunteered for this

[BlueStrat]

Let me guess -- you don't own a television either?

I have one, I just don't find myself using it. Between lack of worthwhile content and cable-service monopoly pricing, and adding that I can watch pretty much anything I like on the interwebs in full HD and on-demand at much lower costs ala carte or free on a big ViewSonic HD monitor with no or very little advertising, I just don't have much use for a traditional TV (or what passes for one these days), except maybe testing out game consoles, etc, for friends & family.

Nice attempt at pigeon-holing me, though.

Strat

Re:Yep, you volunteered for this

[BlueStrat]

"I also don't use any social media"

Yet here you are!

I dunno, I'd consider Slashdot to be one of the closest things to an "antisocial media" website on the 'net except maybe for 4chan, at least as far as toxicity/hostility-factors go, heh!

Strat

Re:Yep, you volunteered for this

[BlueStrat]

just checking in to say "me too"

Its amazing to me how many people seem to forget that life goes on just fine when everything is unplugged.... instead they start freaking out for some reason

From my perspective, I wonder "where do they find all that spare time?

I'm usually far too busy to watch a lot of movies/video/TV. I'm very selective and choose carefully, I have to. There is simply just so much to do, so many guitars to play, circuits to build, programs to write, news/science/technology sources to check, etc etc, on and on it seems at times.

It's a lot of work to accomplish even a fraction of all the project goals and tasks one would wish to in 24 hours while also trying to stay informed and current, and still get some damn sleep, ha!

Strat

Re:Yep, you volunteered for this

[inode_buddha]

Yep.... planting a garden, helping the neighbors, painting the house, mowing the lawn, mentoring a church group, fixing the car, etc etc etc..... thats before even dealing with work

Re:Yep, you volunteered for this

[BlueStrat]

How do you make online transactions? It's one of the best ways to shop, and sometimes the best deals are online. I do what I can to minimize my exposure, but there are some very clear benefits to dealing with things online. I just steer clear of the obviously-monitoring-you-for-ad-money type of things. My debit card (from a credit union, NEVER a bank) opens me up to opportunities (like Square Cash) that I just couldn't take advantage of without a card and doing (a little) business online.

IANAL, IANAFA (I am not a financial advisor), this is only my personal thoughts.

I would say set up multiple checking accounts under your shareholder account and use separate accounts so that if, for instance, some internet vendor payment service screws up and sends a freeze, you won't lose the use of the account which receives your direct deposit employer paychecks, SS benefit payments, or whatever your income source is. When you want to make an online transaction, transfer just that amount to that separate checking account.

Talk to an account manager first at your financial institution, as not all laws, regulations, and policies and/or account-structure design are the same everywhere and/or at every CU. You may have to actually open another share account in order to protect yourself.

Another nice benefit is that you can set alerts/alarms on that online transaction checking account so you know if there's an attempt to make an unauthorized charge, etc without having the landlord cashing the rent check setting off the alarms and possible protective measures like a temporary transaction freeze.

Like I said, these are just my thoughts. None of this constitutes financial, accounting, or legal advice, nor does it impose any liabilities and/or responsibilities for any party in any way. (And somewhere right now, a high ranking US federal official and/or high office-holder is snorting coke off a hooker's ass and laughing his or her ass off.)

Strat

Reasons

[theurge14]

Yet another reason to keep Location Services off other than it drains my phone battery.

Re:Reasons

[Anonymous Coward]

better alternative ...

remove facebook app from phones
blackhole *facebook.com, etc in DNS
tell friends & family to get a life off of facebook

Re:Reasons

[Lumpy]

turn off Wifi as well. It can see what wifi AP's are available and use that data

Re:Reasons

[bondsbw]

Also turn off camera access, it can use AI to cross-reference photos to recognize your location.

Re:Reasons

[Gr8Apes]

The AC has a better solution - remove FB, and might as well remove twitter and any other social media app.

Re:Reasons

[Lumpy]

Incorrect. Current Commercial Operating systems on the consumer devices are insecure. If we could actually get a full linux on a phone with some decent dialer/calling/texting API's baked in where the deviceowner can have 100% control over it then you can have a super secure phone.

Or be a dick to companies like facebook by feeding it random data... I like that idea better as polluting their data pool makes life better for everyone.

Re:Reasons

[Meshach]

So what are we left with? No GPS, no cellular, data, or WiFi, no camera. Why did I pay $99 and sign a two year contract for that?!?

No one is suggesting that you leave it off forever. Just when you are in certain areas.

Re:Reasons

[cyn1c77]

Yet another reason to keep Location Services off other than it drains my phone battery.

Interesting. My first thought was "yet another reason to keep Facebook off my phone."

Location Services is useful to me. Facebook is not.

Re:Reasons

[thegarbz]

Somehow I think the inside of my pants, or the floor tiles looks the same regardless of where I am.

What you are proposing is either in the realm of lab experiment with very low success rate in highly controlled environments, or unhealthy paranoia that not even a tinfoil hat can fix.

Bomb Obama.

There, now the NSA are watching and they know that you know.

Re:Reasons

[Solandri]

If you're on Android Marshmallow, you can deny these permissions on a per-app basis. So give your GPS and fitness app permission to use your location, give your camera app access to the camera, but prohibit Facebook. If your phone hasn't yet gotten Marshmallow, this is probably the biggest reason you want to pester your carrier about hurrying up and releasing that update. It's been available to developers for over a year now, and unless you've got a very old handset it's inexcusable that a carrier hasn't rolled it out yet. (In an ideal world carriers wouldn't be allowed to sell phones, so we'd have competition to force phone makers to roll out these updates promptly. Most have within a month or two, it's the carriers who are dragging their feet - because they have no competition within their network they feel no urgency to roll out these things.)

Some apps crash if you prohibit certain permissions. But that's probably a good sign that you should uninstall that app (the developer isn't doing basic error handling). The only permission Marshmallow doesn't allow you to block is network access. But if you're rooted, it's trivial to install a firewall and block specific apps from using your data and/or wifi connection.

Re:Reasons

[Pharmboy]

or don't use the Facebook app. I don't, yet I check in with Facebook from time to time, then close out the browser in my phone. They are soon to stop allowing people to use their chat unless you install their app, and again, I won't install it. I don't want Facebook to run in the background, but I still want to use Wifi and even GPS. If they stop allowing you to use any Facebook without the app, then I will stop using it on my phone. It isn't like Facebook makes me money or enriches my life, it just lets me talk to family without having to actually talk to them.

Re:Reasons

[radish]

That's part of Location Services (at least on iOS). An app can't access available wifi networks or the GPS, it can just ask the OS for the current location, and the OS will provide it (or not) depending on what you've configured for the app.

I have Location turned off for Facebook (and most other apps) but on for a few which actually provide useful functionality. No real reason to turn it off entirely, and certainly no reason to turn off wifi.

Re:Reasons

[LinuxIsGarbage]

If we could actually get a full linux on a phone with some decent dialer/calling/texting API's baked in

You mean it's not in systemd or emacs?

Not likely

[bkr1_2k]

It's laughable that any advertiser on a website thinks those ads are driving sales in brick and mortar shops. They might be driving some internet sales but I don't think most people view advertisement online as a real motivator to shop anywhere but online. I suspect Facebook will drop this soon when they realize there are no good returns on the data.

Re:Not likely

[Anonymous Coward]

It's laughable that any advertiser on a website thinks those ads are driving sales in brick and mortar shops. They might be driving some internet sales but I don't think most people view advertisement online as a real motivator to shop anywhere but online. I suspect Facebook will drop this soon when they realize there are no good returns on the data.

I imagine they've done some serious analysis, er "data science" on returns and are much more confident about returns on their investment than advertisers of yore. Just sayin'...

Re:Not likely

[ledow]

I have to say:

Loyalty cards were invented because they allowed tracking of customer preferences etc.

Quite what data they get from them that actually results in greater sales I can't fathom (surely you can only give coupons for things, which results in less profit on things I probably don't want as I chose their competitor anyway) but in the era of having nothing like that, I'm sure it was a boost to discover that people who buy hot dog sausages also buy hot dog rolls.

But nowadays? And Facebook ads? You're suggesting that giving shops data on how many Facebook ads they bought resulted in someone walking into a store and buying products (which is purely correlative, not causative) is somehow profitable enough that it covers the bad press? I mean, honestly? How is that possible?

And surely it's "too late" if they've bought some Facebook ads to then tell the stores how many people went on to buy something. And couldn't that be done just as easily with a coupon, voucher, code etc. that's only in the Facebook advert? And then extrapolating from that to purely "we should buy more Facebook ads"?

I'm just not sure that I get this at all. How is it relevant to most stores, how many stores advertise on Facebook at all, how do you tie the correlation to a causation, what kind of rates are you expecting (aren't ad responses measured in PER THOUSAND and even then each is only a pittance of a measure?), and quite how does having all those statistics available magically make you more money than, say, putting up a sign or taking 5% off something?

It's Big Data applied to random human interactions again.

Re:Not likely

[swb]

At a certain point, it feels like the data is being obsessively collected to be used by marketing people with absolutely no math or statistics backgrounds to merely bolster whatever bullshit arguments, gut instincts or dart-throwing decisions they make.

Scientists schooled in the scientific method with math/stats backgrounds making a conscious effort to not fall into correlation/causation or selective bias errors often fail at producing good data.

A room full of marketing people, jockeying for corporate positions and status? That's a recipe for data errors.

It also makes you wonder how often the people responsible for the data alter it, simply to see what happens if they tweak the data so that suddenly it seems entirely sensible to sell polka-dot hats to 20-somethings or hoverboards to old people.

Re:Not likely

[DogDude]

It's laughable that any advertiser on a website thinks those ads are driving sales in brick and mortar shops.

It's laughable that you say it's laughable. Facebook ads do a fine job of driving people to brick and mortar. Arguably, it's one of the best ways to get customers in the door, especially since Facebook is the modern version of "word of mouth".

Re:Not likely

[Calydor]

Correlation and causation.

If I see an ad on Tuesday, and buy something from that ad on Saturday, how can the advertiser with any kind of reasonable certainty say that I saw the ad in the first place or just ignored it completely?

Unless I'm actually looking at Facebook ads while walking into the store related to those ads there are so many other factors at play in a time span of just minutes that it becomes a crapshoot at best.

Re:Not likely

[DogDude]

People find new stores to go into because of Facebook.

Re:Not likely

[DogDude]

You don't understand why local businesses would want to show ads to people who live near those businesses? Really?

Re:Not likely

[ShanghaiBill]

It's laughable that any advertiser on a website thinks those ads are driving sales in brick and mortar shops.

They don't think it. They know it. Their ads almost always contain coupons or specific ad codes so they can track sales to specific ads. I have gone to local shops and restaurants because of deals I saw online, and many other people have as well. They wouldn't continue to run the ads if they weren't working. Very few companies run untracked ads anymore.

Re:Not likely

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

The typical advertising deal is a store knows how much money it's making. The store purchases ads then measures how much sales go up. If they don't go up, they stop giving the advertising service more money.

Re:Not likely

[Bob the Super Hamste]

Scientists schooled in the scientific method with math/stats backgrounds making a conscious effort to not fall into correlation/causation or selective bias errors often fail at producing good data.

In discussion like this I am always reminded of a little tidbit I picked up in one of my AI courses in college:

People who buy diapers in a grocery store on Thursday nights also tend to buy beer at the same time

Then there is this little gem about Target from a while back.

Re:Not likely

[NatasRevol]

No, they don't understand that coupons drive further business. As if a little less profit is worse than no profit at all.

Re:Not likely

[NatasRevol]

If I see an ad on Tuesday, and buy something from that ad on Saturday, how can the advertiser with any kind of reasonable certainty say that I saw the ad in the first place or just ignored it completely

You, specifically? They can't

You, in aggregate? They can watch trends.

But maybe you just woke up from a coma for 20 plus years & didn't realize this.

Re:Not likely

[istartedi]

This reminds me of a joke, some variation of which has been circulating for a long time. Here's the first version I could find easily:

An assemblage of the most gifted minds in the world were all posed the following question: "What is 2 x 2 ?" The engineer whips out his slide rule and shuffles it back and forth, and finally announces "3.99". The physicist consults his technical references, sets up the problem on his computer, and announces "it lies between 3.98 and 4.02." The mathematician cogitates for a while, oblivious to the rest of the world, then announces: "I don't what the answer is, but I can tell you, an answer exists!" The philosopher says, "But what do you mean by 2 x 2 ?" The logician says, "Please define 2 x 2 more precisely." The accountant closes all the doors and windows, looks around carefully, then asks "What do you want the answer to be?"

Re:Not likely

[fulldecent]

What about beer?

Many people come to drink that in person.

Re:Not likely

[bkr1_2k]

It's laughable that any advertiser on a website thinks those ads are driving sales in brick and mortar shops.

It's laughable that you say it's laughable. Facebook ads do a fine job of driving people to brick and mortar. Arguably, it's one of the best ways to get customers in the door, especially since Facebook is the modern version of "word of mouth".

Based on what? I have not met (and yes, I'm aware that my anecdote is not evidence) a single person who's ever seen an ad on facebook (or any other website) and then gone to a brick and mortar store to buy the item. I have seen lots of people buy the item from their computer, phone, tablet, whatever. My point is that people who pay attention to the ads at all are far more likely (in my experience) to buy online rather than "go shopping".

Re:Not likely

[bkr1_2k]

It's laughable that any advertiser on a website thinks those ads are driving sales in brick and mortar shops.

They don't think it. They know it. Their ads almost always contain coupons or specific ad codes so they can track sales to specific ads. I have gone to local shops and restaurants because of deals I saw online, and many other people have as well. They wouldn't continue to run the ads if they weren't working. Very few companies run untracked ads anymore.

Fair enough. I've never payed any attention to advertisements on facebook other than to see how ridiculously bad their "targeting" is for me so I wasn't aware they had coupons of any kind. I've still never known anyone who went to an actual store to buy things. Everyone I've ever known buys online when they see ads online.

Fuck you Facebook.

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck you Facebook.

Re:Fuck you Facebook.

[gnupun]

It's not just Facebook though... any damn app on your phone can do the same thing. Ultimately, many apps are going to have a map GPS-to-store functionality in their apps and will sell that info to marketeers etc. So if you're a smartphone user, expect to be tracked like hell.

ways around this

[whoozwah]

1. Best solution: leave location services off on your phone. Buy a standalone GPS. 2. Next best solution: leave location services off except when you are going to a new place and turn it back off when you exit the vehicle. 3. What most people will do: Not care.

Re:ways around this

[HornWumpus]

Install cyanogen. Configure it to give bogus information to apps that want location information for no good reason (all but navi).

Optional: Have that location be some ridiculously overpriced shopping district. Rodeo drive, Monaco, Manhattan etc. Just to fuck with the companies trying to monetize the information.

Re:ways around this

[WolfgangVL]

Best solution: Ditch the mobile phone completely.

Learn to read a map. You don't NEED GPS.
Remember how to make and keep friends here in the real world.
Remember how to learn and apply without selling your privacy away.

You only THINK you absolutely must have internet in your pocket. You can have your privacy instead.

Re:ways around this

[TheRaven64]

0. Even better solution: Close your Facebook account. Tell people that want to contact you to use email or some other mechanism that isn't under the sole control of a single entity.

Not a problem for me...

[__aaclcg7560]

I seldom ever go into a physical store. All my shopping is done virtually. Then again, I don't use Facebook.

Re:Not a problem for me...

[__aaclcg7560]

So, you never leave your parent's basement, then?

Between commuting to my regular job and running a side job, I don't have time to go shopping at brick-and-mortar stores.

No it wont

[TheCarp]

Because I don't install special snowflake apps on my phone, and VERY VERY few of the ones I do get approved to ask for location data, and I take away any permissions I don't think they need.

First thing I did with my new phone was disable permentantly the first app that asked for my location data. (some hidden NFL app)

Re:No it wont

[whoozwah]

If I was buying Magnums I wouldn't lie.

Re:No it wont

[kheldan]

Aww, that's adorable, he actually thinks that any of the 'privacy' settings on his smartphone actually do anything!

I got bad news for you, sunshine: Your carrying a smartphone at all is more or less equivalent to wearing an ankle monitor like the police would put on you while you're under house arrest. You want to be free of being tracked by your phone? Get rid of it and get the simplest wireless phone you can find, with no GPS at all, and with a battery you can physically remove to completely shut it off if need be. Then only turn it on when you need to use it. Then at least they'll only know where you are when you're actually using the phone.

Re:No it wont

[TheCarp]

Wow do you always go around making so many assumptions?

As I said, I avoid installing those apps. Yes, I have to trust more companies than I would like, I don't see why that means I should assume nothing works at all and just give up.

Just because its hard or impossible to decrease the amount of tracking on your to 0 doesn't mean that decreasing the insane amounts of it going on and shutting down some of its most prolific avenues has no value.

Re:No it wont

[tlhIngan]

I got bad news for you, sunshine: Your carrying a smartphone at all is more or less equivalent to wearing an ankle monitor like the police would put on you while you're under house arrest. You want to be free of being tracked by your phone? Get rid of it and get the simplest wireless phone you can find, with no GPS at all, and with a battery you can physically remove to completely shut it off if need be. Then only turn it on when you need to use it. Then at least they'll only know where you are when you're actually using the phone.

All phones these days have GPS. It's part of E911 requirement caused by 9/11. Sure the crappiest voice-only phone may only have AGPS, but it can triangulate your position within 30 seconds or so.

Re:No it wont

[thegarbz]

Aww, that's adorable, he actually thinks that any of the 'privacy' settings on his smartphone actually do anything!

This is something that has been tested quite extensively for every device that offers such settings. It's why we know that disabling location services on Android stops the phone sending your location to companies, and it's why we know disabling telemetry on Windows may only change a very very small portion of the data your computer leaks out constantly to Microsoft servers.

You don't need to "believe" anything, you can just read up on any of the repeatable tests on the net. Start at XDA before you put on your tin-foil flame suit.

Re:No it wont

[kheldan]

Wow do you always go around making so many assumptions?

Nah, I'm mostly just being snarky and sarcastic, don't take me too seriously; my apologies if you were offended. Mainly I just hate smartphones, for what a security swisscheese they are, and for how so many people (not you, apparently) seem to be attached at the hip to them. Meanwhile they're being turned into yet another way to track and monitor people, invade their privacy, and overall take advantage of them (again, not you, apparently). The whole thing kind of makes me sick to my stomach.

Re:No it wont

[TheCarp]

Its frightening but, the phone company already has the tower data which gives them like 90% of this stuff and that is wide open to the government. Hell sprint a few years back had information about their portal linked... government pays money....gets access to your data. No oversight, no attempt....just monetization.

There are limits to GPS

[TopShelf]

So what happens when you're in a multi-story building, like the Water Tower in Chicago? You may be in the Lego store, but 3 floors below is Victoria's Secret...

Re:There are limits to GPS

[Sir_Eptishous]

Perhaps they could triangulate your coordinates by which Wifi APs you are near.
Doesn't Google do that already?

Re:There are limits to GPS

[geek]

Beacons

https://developer.apple.com/ib...

Re:There are limits to GPS

[HornWumpus]

GPS returns altitude.

Re:There are limits to GPS

[Bender Unit 22]

iBeacon?

Re:There are limits to GPS

[__aaclcg7560]

You may be in the Lego store, but 3 floors below is Victoria's Secret.

You will get ads for Lego-sized see-through thongs.

Re:There are limits to GPS

[DogDude]

Well, in that case, they can use these neat little things. To find *exactly* where you are.

Re:There are limits to GPS

[thegarbz]

This won't be using GPS, likely it will be using WiFi based services. GPS doesn't work indoors, especially if there's multiple stories above you.

Rare exceptions exist.

Re:There are limits to GPS

[thegarbz]

So what happens when you're in a multi-story building, like the Water Tower in Chicago? You may be in the Lego store, but 3 floors below is Victoria's Secret...

Turn your GPS off and walk through a super market which is mapped by Google. You'll notice they still know in which store you are. GPS doesn't work indoors without fixed stations which few if any stores actually have. Location can work by relative strengths of WiFi access points.

Re:There are limits to GPS

[JeffOwl]

Not inside a building it doesn't. Phones typically use other sources to track you inside, such as WAPs.

Re:There are limits to GPS

[swillden]

GPS returns altitude.

Not very well.

3D GPS does provide altitude, but it's significantly less precise than latitude and longitude. Your location is frequently accurate within a few feet, but altitude is always plus or minus at least a hundred feet.

Also, 3D GPS requires line of sight to several satellites, which is often difficult indoors.

Re:There are limits to GPS

[StikyPad]

Elevation GPS measurements are about an order of magnitude less accurate than lat/lon on average, and sometimes far worse. Part of this is the quality of consumer-grade receivers, but mostly it's just geometry. If you're interested, there's more information here. You can get better measurements if you stay in one spot long enough (say, 24 hours), and your GPS receiver will perform long-term averaging, but neither of those things are likely to be characteristics of a mobile device. Plus, as someone else mentioned, you're not likely to get good reception indoors.

Beacons, though. :)

No, they won't.

[pla]

I consider myself a borderline-tinfoil-hat privacy advocate, and I really see this as a non-issue.

If you voluntarily install a tracking application on your phone, and give it permission to access your GPS - That doesn't "violate" anything (except "common sense").

Yes, I would consider anyone allowing this a complete idiot; but in no way does this affect anyone that doesn't want it to track them.

Re:No, they won't.

[gnupun]

If you voluntarily install a tracking application on your phone, and give it permission to access your GPS - That doesn't "violate" anything (except "common sense").

No, you're using funny words. The user wants the app to chat with friends (and he has no other option). What he/she has to pay for that service is all these permissions the app requires. I blame Google solely for this, since they don't allow the user to selectively disable non-essential app permissions like GPS tracking.

Re:No, they won't.

[DogDude]

You should try the Windows Phone, then. You can selectively disable all of that stuff per application.

Re:No, they won't.

[thegarbz]

(and he has no other option)

Yes they do. This level of tracking requires location services, something which you can disable and doing so only affects a minority of applications for which the service can be enabled at specific cases.

It's not anywhere near as bad as you make it out to be.

Re:No, they won't.

[Anonymous Coward]

They actually do allow that now.

Re:No, they won't.

[eionmac]

I do not use a smart phone. Thus I am not worried.

Or make it critical for social networking

[rsilvergun]

Like it or not Facebook is how people connect now. There's a lot of introverts on this forum (myself included) who have used for that. But if you genuinely want to be around people Facebook is how you meet up. For example: all the table top gaming stores in my neighborhood use it to coordinate events, and all the dnd groups use it to find and connect players.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[tripleevenfall]

Aside from a few Sheldon Coopers out there who would be shut-ins without social media, most people do not want to be tracked by GPS by a company which exists to sell information about them to advertisers.

This is it for me and the FB mobile app, I have just deleted it and will not be reinstalling it.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[Bender Unit 22]

Yeah, my local mountain bike club has updates on the track condition, work days etc in facebook, our homeowners unions sends out updates on facebook, my local butcher on good deal about imported American meat.
So when I removed Facebook from my life, there were a few annoyances like that I don't see these updates anymore. But mostly it was a blessing to get rid of it.

If I were to enable my account again(do they "timeout" if they have been disabled for too long?), I won't be installing any of their apps on my phone which will be hard since people expect that they can contact me via the messenger app. So I guess I won't be enabling it. :D

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[__aaclcg7560]

[...] most people do not want to be tracked by GPS by a company which exists to sell information about them to advertisers.

This begs the question... How many store-branded reward cards do you have in your wallet?

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[MitchDev]

Or just, you know, turn off location services

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[nucrash]

The concept of disabling location tracking or possibly just leaving your phone at home probably doesn't enter into the conversation, does it?

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[rock_climbing_guy]

Tell me about just how creepy Facebook is!

I recently had Facebook prompt me to add a business associate as a "Facebook Friend".

I discussed with him the matter of how Facebook could have known that we know each other. I never used Facebook to communicate with him in any way, nor did I view his profile, and he says that he never even viewed my profile. We can only guess that the Facebook app on his phone (which I steadfastly refuse to install on mine) scraped my phone number from his contacts list and then Facebook somehow matched it up with my name.

Sad to say, that's exactly what I would expect them to do.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[Gr8Apes]

I don't think there's a timeout, it doesn't behoove FB to "delete" an account. I still get email (auto-junk) from several FB accounts on some junk email addresses I still have access to (OMG, really? I have multiples? Guess there's some ToS I didn't read :) I'll be wholesale changing junk accounts permanently, as it's about time to cut off the old ones. It's mostly a junk rule exercise than anything else.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[tripleevenfall]

Not a single one.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[mcgrew]

I don't understand why anyone would install an FB mobile app in the first place, their web site works fine on a phone. FB Messenger? That's just teenage stupidity; every phone that will run FB Messenger already has texting.

I also don't understand how nobody seems to understand that the more crap on your phone is turned on, the faster the battery will run down. That alone is reason enough to keep "location services" shut off unless you need to use it; likewise bluetooth and wi-fi.

I do know one guy who had a temporary need for FB's messenger; he had no phone, only an iPod. Thankfully, he has a phone now.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[tripleevenfall]

Why should Facebook make me disable services which are actually useful to stop them from tracking my physical movements?

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[ShanghaiBill]

most people do not want to be tracked by GPS by a company which exists to sell information about them to advertisers.

It depends on how you phrase the question. If you ask people "Do you want corporations to track your location?" most people will say "no". If you ask if people if they prefer ads and discounts to be for things they are actually interested in, they most people will say "yes".

It is better to ignore what people say they want, and instead look at their revealed preferences. Most people are willing to give up some degree of privacy for more connectedness and to save money. Personally, I don't care much if I am tracked, as long as I am informed and have the option to enable/disable at will. If I am going to see ads anyway, I prefer ads that match my interests (metal lathes rather than tampons, Rogaine rather than shampoo).

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[coinreturn]

The concept of disabling location tracking or possibly just leaving your phone at home probably doesn't enter into the conversation, does it?

Leaving phone at home? Doesn't that make a MOBILE phone just a regular phone?

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[__aaclcg7560]

I don't know who they are tracking when I use them though. It isn't me.

Since you're using the card, they're tracking you via your purchases and building a profile based on that. If you paid by debit or credit card, they might have that info associated with your profile and acquired your personal info through a third-party vendor. Like it or not, they're tracking you.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[Phusion]

Yes, I have read several accounts of this happening to others. I believe the app scrapes/grabs your contacts and then tries to quietly connect you with people inside that list, who aren't your friends yet. Ever since they started deeply integrating messenger with phone (letting you log in with your phone number, forcing Messenger on you etc) these kinds of techniques have been employed. Ahh yes it would be nice to not be feeding into the industrial marketing machine, wouldn't it?

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[jenningsthecat]

Aside from a few Sheldon Coopers out there who would be shut-ins without social media, most people do not want to be tracked by GPS by a company which exists to sell information about them to advertisers.

This is it for me and the FB mobile app, I have just deleted it and will not be reinstalling it.

I only have WiFi or mobile data turned on when needed, usually for brief periods. After I'm finished, I turn them off until I need them again. I don't enable location services - never have. And I don't have a Facebook account - never have. I've rooted my phone, and the FB app, (along with all similar bloatware), was the first to go. And still, I'm sure I'm being tracked all over the place, if only to the degree of granularity allowed for by cell tower triangulation. If my provider can monetize that data, I'm certain they will. In short, these days there's only so much we can do, (short of dropping out of mainstream society altogether), to thwart advertisers and other collectors of personal data.

On a daily basis I think 'Fuck it, I'll cave in and let my privacy be whored out - I'll join Facebook, turn location services on, be one of the crowd, and try not to worry about it.'. But somehow, I can never quite manage to pull the trigger. Stubborn, I guess...

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[SirSlud]

Or just turn off the location permissions, mr computer whiz.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[SirSlud]

> We can only guess that the Facebook app on his phone (which I steadfastly refuse to install on mine) scraped my phone number from his contacts list and then Facebook somehow matched it up with my name.

It's a permission the phone asks for, which can be turned off.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[_UnderTow_]

You can always disable location services for that app (at least on my Nexus phone running Marshmallow).

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're running Android v6 you can disable location services for just the Facebook app.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[laurencetux]

I wonder how many Amish folks have FB accounts??

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, Boy. You really don't get the fun of doing disinformation, do you?

Mobile devices are not 'phones' anymore. You got to have an strategy for dealing with them. I leave phone at home when I'm out; I make phone go for a ride [in wife's car] when I'm home; Leave it hiding in a park tree for hours; Make them fly strapped to my RC plane; Get them down a 3,000 ft deep artesian well... So many funny things. You should try sometimes.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[latebeer]

For Android there's Tinfoil for Facebook, which sandboxes the Facebook mobile website and lets you allow or block location services. Their mobile website doesn't work all that well but it lets you access Messages without using Facebook Messenger. Google Play: Tinfoil for Facebook GitHub: Tinfoil for Facebook

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[Gilgaron]

You can disable location services for individual apps, or make them only know your location while the app is active.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[ilsaloving]

Most people keep their phones on them at all times, because it's just too useful, so no, that's not really an option.

Disabling location tracking? If you're using an Apple iDevice, then yes, this is possible. If you are using an Android, then no, it's not possible, because Google has specifically and conspicuously not granted users fine-grained controls over what an application is allowed to do.

This is apparently changing in the most recent versions of android, but considering how poor the penetration is for said most recent versions, they don't really count yet.

I have an iPhone and an iPad, and I long ago denied Facebook access to pretty much everything. No contacts, no location, no nothing. The only reason I even use Facebook is the same as why I use Microsoft Office. Cause everyone I know uses it, and it's the simplest way to work with them.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[Nunya666]

Since you're using the card, they're tracking you via your purchases and building a profile based on that. If you paid by debit or credit card, they might have that info associated with your profile and acquired your personal info through a third-party vendor. Like it or not, they're tracking you.

I don't care because they save me money. A large store in the U.S. Midwest offers sales only to loyalty card holders. Sure, they have "regular" sale prices that apply to every customer. But they also have sales and specials that only apply to loyalty card holders. For example, save $10 if you spend $75 in the shoe department over a 4-week period. Or save $9 if you spend $400 over a 4-week period. And of course, regular sales of $.50 off this or $1 off that.

I don't care that they know how often I buy Brand X. Or that I prefer the store brand over Brand Y. Or that I have a cat, but not a dog. All I care about is saving 12-15% off my shopping bill for an entire year. That's 12-15% off groceries, clothing, health and beauty aids, automotive, gardening, etc.

Anyone who shops at this particular chain without using their loyalty/reward card is essentially throwing away money.

Oh, and I wouldn't dream of installing the FB app on my phone. Since I block the FB widget in my web browser, why would I allow FB on my phone?

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[Hylandr]

The trick here is to get a 'loyalty card' and not fill in the info. I don't have a facebook account or any social media junk except google+ and LinkedIn.

And where I feel it necessary I pay cash or use a greendot money card.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[The-Ixian]

Changing your behavior does not alter the nature of the device. So no, leaving a mobile phone at home does not turn it into something else.

I don't leave my phone at home (unless I forget it) but I also don't take it with me everywhere I go. When I work out, I use purpose-specific devices (Nook e-ink for reading or Sansa MP3 player for recordings) instead of hauling a clunking phone with me.

Despite that, my phone is still mobile because I can take it with me when I want to.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[JesseMcDonald]

Disabling location tracking? If you're using an Apple iDevice, then yes, this is possible. If you are using an Android, then no, it's not possible, because Google has specifically and conspicuously not granted users fine-grained controls over what an application is allowed to do.

That statement is false for Android M (6.0) and later, which introduced revocable permissions (including Location). This version has been available since October of 2015 (8 months ago), and has about 7% market share as of May 2016.

While it is unfortunate that the pre-6.0 versions lacked any official way to revoke permissions, I'm not sure what you expect Google to do about it now (short of inventing time travel). They already released a fix for the issue. If an update to Android M is not available for your phone—and the hardware is not thoroughly obsolete—then your problem is not with Google, but rather the manufacturer and/or carrier.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[Anonymous Coward]

That's not a "trick". The point of loyalty cards, from the merchant's perspective, is to build profiles that establish buying patterns. Using the card creates and builds upon that profile even if it doesn't have your name on it (and they can very likely tie it to your name through other means anyhow).

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[ShanghaiBill]

Why do people think targeted advertising means "things you are interested in"?

Because I see plenty of ads that are very specifically targeted. They are not always for something I am interested in, but I understand why I was targeted. I recently bought a microwave oven, and now I see ads for microwave ovens. That is very targeted, even though I won't be buying another for a decade or more (my old one lasted 20 years).

It means, "Advertisers who are interested in your demographic."

No. The whole point of what Facebook and others are doing is to track your specific interests and connections. If they were only interesting in demographics, then none of this tracking would be happening.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[tripleevenfall]

No, the point of loyalty cards is to get me to consolidate all my buying with that retailer instead of with a variety of retailers.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[Maow]

We can only guess that the Facebook app on his phone (which I steadfastly refuse to install on mine) scraped my phone number from his contacts list and then Facebook somehow matched it up with my name.

That's exactly my understanding of how it works.

In which case, they also scraped your email address(es), home address, and who knows - SMS / email conversations? Call history?

If this friend posted any photos at a time that FB's algorithms can place the two of you together (i.e. GPS says "current location = "rock_climbing_guy's" house +/- 100m, then they have photos of you (and the inside of your house, etc.).

The possibilities are endless and the only consolation is that FB has so much of this data that it's possibly difficult for them to gather what they have on you specifically. However, FB has some really talented people, so they can probably analyze what they have quite well and nearly instantaneously - should their attention turn your way.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

This begs the question... How many store-branded reward cards do you have in your wallet?

One, but it doesn't have any of my real information associated with it.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[AntronArgaiv]

I can think of a plausible way to track you, based on cookies, your wifi MAC address and the store's wifi network (whether or not you choose to join it).

Facebook app grabs your wifi MAC and checks your phone's cookies, then transfers that info to someplace in the cloud, which is later aggregated with a list of MACs seen by the store's wifi network.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[StikyPad]

I don't understand why anyone would install an FB mobile app in the first place, their web site works fine on a phone.

For now. It's not hard to imagine FB refusing to serve the page and pushing users to download the app.

FB Messenger? That's just teenage stupidity; every phone that will run FB Messenger already has texting.

Not everyone wants to give out their mobile number to people they want to communicate with. That said, they're arguably losing more privacy by communicating through Facebook, but Facebook is a known quantity (or at least users believe it is), where Mike from "that party last week" may be somewhat of an unknown.

Honestly, we shouldn't be in this situation at all. We've had 20+ years to standardize instant messaging, and failed miserably. XMPP has been discarded by all but the most fringe players -- probably because nobody thought to bake-in security, despite the fact that we've known that security cannot be an afterthought since well before XMPP came on the scene. All of the viable consolidated chat platforms have been locked, sued, or bought out of existence, if they haven't failed on their own, and that's probably for the best as well since they stored usernames and passwords for third-party accounts.

To take some liberties with Kennedy's words: I believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving the goal, before this decade is out, of the development and ubiquitous implementation of a public IM protocol, interoperable among all platforms, with configurable end-to-end encryption, and for email as well. No single project in this period will be less impressive to mankind, or more important for the long-range security of communications; and none will be so difficult to accomplish.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[AntronArgaiv]

I can think of a plausible way to track you, based on cookies, your wifi MAC address and the store's wifi network (whether or not you choose to join it).

Facebook app grabs your wifi MAC and checks your phone's cookies, then transfers that info to someplace in the cloud, which is later aggregated with a list of MACs seen by the store's wifi network.

"wifi Probe Requests" -- they include your MAC and it seems every smartphone sends them when it's looking for APs to connect to.
http://www.nirsoft.net/utils/w...

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[q4Fry]

This is true, to a degree. I do not think that it is completely valid, though. If you turn off WiFi as well as disabling location access, maybe you can avoid tracking. If you leave WiFi on, though, all the store needs to do is establish a WiFi access point with a unique SSID provided to (or by) Facebook. The app can sniff for connections and put you at the scene.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[Hevel-Varik]

Yep, so it's about managing the beast.

Keep facebook or whatever off the phone and have a stationary social machine to keep in touch. Right now the trade off for mobile social networking is worth it for most people but this may well be pushing the envelope too far. It's quite a trial balloon, this first overt use of GPS tracking by the silicon valley KGB and I'm hoping that it's enough to wake a significant amount of people up. Because the next step, if we aren't there already is per person time/place profile which is really just wow.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[Archfeld]

Not all of them. The gaming store in my area uses a physical board and the group I've belonged to for 20+ years has never picked up anybody via social media, but requires a recommendation from an existing player and an interview before we consider letting someone join us. There are 12 of us now, 3 couples, and the rest singles of varying ages. We have a private web forum for player/game documentation. Email, text and/or a phone tree works just as well and is MUCH less intrusive. One a side note our neighborhood HAD a FB page but complaints about privacy caused them to switch to an email letter and privately managed web page. Just because some people don't care who tracks them means others don't.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[Pfhorrest]

I, in California, have a friend in Iceland who I knew through an obscure video game back in the mid-90s. I have no Facebook account. He apparently does though, because Facebook's constant "you should join Facebook because all these people you know are on it" somehow knows that I know this guy on the other side of the world.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[painandgreed]

No, the point of loyalty cards is to get me to consolidate all my buying with that retailer instead of with a variety of retailers.

Not really as you'll find that the same loyalty card will work at that variety of retailers regardless of what name is printed on it.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[painandgreed]

The trick here is to get a 'loyalty card' and not fill in the info. I don't have a facebook account or any social media junk except google+ and LinkedIn.

And where I feel it necessary I pay cash or use a greendot money card.

I hope that where you feel necessary is everywhere you use a loyalty card, every single time you use it without fail. Use a credit or debit card with a loyalty card even once, and they'll be linked with your information forever.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[sir1963nz]

The only way that will work is if you leave you phone at home. How soon do you think it will be before they have Wifi/Bluetooth/Cell sniffers on each door just tracking your MAC/IMEI numbers as you enter/leave ? They may even track which part of the store you go into and how long you spend in each area. Combine that with a camera system (security ones will work) + Facebook facial recognition and you may not even need a phone to be tracked.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[sir1963nz]

surprise you DO have a Facebook account, its one they generated to track you via the [F] icon on web pages, via photos other people load onto Facebook , etc etc etc.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[Hylandr]

In this case it's no mystery I feed my family or clothe ourselves.

The grocery store can only store the last 4 of my cc, and those change from time to time. The bank could look at my purchase history and know where I have shopped. It's also good for an Alibi if I am accused of some wrong doing.

But as far as putting bank info to purchase info the stores don't have access to that. Otherwise they wouldn't need their 'loyalty cards'.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[rock_climbing_guy]

I'm more concerned about the three-letter agencies. You know the NSA's motto: "Your data is our data." They can't realistically read all that data today, but in the future, they may have artificial intelligence that can read it all, synthesize it, make connections, and tell the authorities more than you could possibly imagine.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[Hylandr]

I have a plugin that removes the social media plugins from websites. I never see the F. :)

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[bkr1_2k]

I think you've got that backwards. Aside from a few (relative) technophiles most people don't know/understand or care that they are being tracked. They care about things being easy and cheap.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[joe_frisch]

You can always trade functionality for privacy, but I don't think it is a trade that consumers should be required to make. You can leave you phone at home. You can not drive to avoid license plate readers, or at least not drive cars that report locations to the manufacturers. You can not use the internet to avoid identity tracking. You can live in the back woods somewhere and pretty much not be tracked at all.

The problem is that to interact fully with modern society you need to do all these things and it is not reasonable to ask people to give up this interaction in order to maintain privacy. That is sort of like saying that if you don't want peeping toms, you should board up your windows.

Physical tracking information is very dangerous. It shows how long you were at work, at the bar, at home, at a co-workers house, the gym, walking etc. If that information is held by a for-profit company they will have an incentive to sell it.

If you are married and tracking shows you went to a strip club, will FB send adds for divorce attorneys to your spouse?

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[Darinbob]

Yes, but allowing your location to be known is optional. Turn off that feature and ignore the phone when it bitches that it can help show you better ads if you turn it back on.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[Darinbob]

I've got two, and they save money. Local drug store and the local grocery store. Advertisers probably already know I go there if they know my address (which is why I get throw away physical junk mail from them). This was the idea behind coupons also, give the customer a benefit and they'll come visit you. If other stores gave me 25-50% off by having a rewards card I might try them. Advertising is fine with me if the customer gets something from it, but that rarely happens these days except at some brick and mortar stores.

If the reward cards are tracking me and building up a profile, then they're doing a very bad job of it. I buy the same things nearly every time and yet they advertise stuff I probably will never buy. The point for the store is not to generate advertising revenue, but to get me into the stores at which point I will see the products.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[Darinbob]

Really? My Walgreens card will work at stores that aren't Walgreens? Are we not talking about the same sorts of loyalty cards (are there such silly things as Coca Cola loyalty cards)? You don't even need to loyalty card as it's tied to your phone number.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[Darinbob]

Is having location services on all the time useful for any purpose other than advertising? In the rare case that you need to use a map when you're lost then you can turn it on temporarily.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[viperidaenz]

When someone else posts a photo with you in it and they tell Facebook who it is, it goes against your profile that you never created.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[viperidaenz]

Deny the location privilege to the Facebook app then.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[viperidaenz]

For now. It's not hard to imagine FB refusing to serve the page and pushing users to download the app.

I don't have the facebook app. When ever I try to read a message someone sent me via facebook the webapp constantly redirects me to download the messenger app. I have to dismiss it several times just to read a single message. I wouldn't be surprised if they made it impossible to read a message without the messenger app.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[citylivin]

I leave my cel phone at home unless I am doing a craigslist deal or actually have a reason to take it with me when i leave the house.

If I'm out doing something non phone related, then why would i need to carry a phone? This whole "i need to see my phone every 5 minutes" is still a rather new thing in the last 5 years or so and I havent really been tricked into that yet. To me, a phone means work and I think it will evolve to a point where only the poor carry their phones around with them all the time. Rich people will be phone free and have others answer all their calls for them. Because at the end of the day, phones to me have always equaled increased stress.

Maybe its all those on-call positions I used to take... who knows, but i really don't care for phones that much. If its serving me then fine, but the way people treat them now adays, they are simply slaves to the phone, or addicts, and I want to be neither of those things.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[reboot246]

When I leave the house I have location service, bluetooth, and wifi turned off and when I am home, only wifi is turned on. Battery life is fantastic!

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[coinreturn]

My work does not know my mobile number. It is my private line. When I go places, I like to know I have a phone on me in case I have car trouble. It sits in my pocket. It is not "smart," so I don't have fb or any other app on it. That's the way I like it.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[JesseMcDonald]

I was only referring to the ability to disable permissions for the system Location Service, as on iOS devices. If Facebook wants to implement its own location service based on passive observation of nearby devices there probably isn't much anyone can do about that, at least short of disabling network access entirely, which would defeat the point of having a Facebook app. Even if you're not using the store's WiFi, I suspect a simple traceroute could uniquely identify the cell tower you're connected to—a store could even install their own picocell to make the identification easier.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[Anonymous Coward]

It also helps build a customer profile, even if it's not specifically about you. The loyalty card has a unique number, and the card unifies all the purchases the anonymous customer makes. It lets retailers know what products are bought together, or throughout the year, by particular types of customer. This helps inform their sales, or inform what should never drop in price, because people will buy it anyway. It can even be used to inform store layout. Some products don't move unless they're right next to eachother, but other products need eachother, and if you can be lead past other impulse items, that's a win for the retailer, if you buy them. Not just if you buy them in that transaction, but if you EVER buy them, having seen them, and had the idea simmer away for a while.

In stores that track individual staff, it can also identify whether some staff attract repeat customers. You'll see the same customer IDs recurring on that salesperson's transactions, if they do. It also helps pick out the staff who only target particular kinds of customer, who are working more to maximise their own sales figures, rather than those of the store (those people are a cancer to a retailer - under traditional measures they look like the best in the store, but they're really just cannibalising the sales of the other staff. They don't produce growth, for the retailer, and can lead to a negative customer experience for people who are going to spend less, potentially eliminating repeat business from them.) More benignly, it can also be used to identify staff who lack training in some areas. They may NEVER sell something that everyone else is, and are missing opportunities. Or, they may be hyper-specific in their skills, and other staff are palming that stuff off to them. Retail-metrics are HUGE, and are used on people on both sides of the counter.

Source: I worked for a retailer through the introduction of a rewards program, and grilled the higher ups for this information, a few years back.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[cthulhu11]

Or you could just move your wittle fingers and disallow the app from accessing location services.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[ilsaloving]

You are right, however that isn't going to stop me from holding Google accountable for this privacy mess. Abusive apps that slurp up your data has existed for a very long time. Manufacturers that don't provide updates to their devices has been an ongoing issue for a very long time.

All these issues (and more) are things that Google *could* have addressed a long time ago, and chose not to, so they are responsible for creating this "Landfill Android" ecosystem whether they like it or not. This is a major reason why I have abandoned the entire Android platform in it's entirety, and actively discourage everyone I know from getting an Android device.

I'm glad that Google is finally getting their heads out of their asses and finally locking down Android, but this is something that should have happened a long time ago. As it stands, it will take *years* before Android M becomes the dominant OS version (Heck, v4 still has over 30% market share.) and in the mean time, the overwhelming majority of Android users are still screwed.

Re:Or make it critical for social networking

[Anonymous Coward]

I, in California, have a friend in Iceland who I knew through an obscure video game back in the mid-90s. I have no Facebook account. He apparently does though, because Facebook's constant "you should join Facebook because all these people you know are on it" somehow knows that I know this guy on the other side of the world.

I'm kind of surprised people don't have more faith in degrees of separation. Facebook is just suggesting friends of friends of friends of friends of friends and so on. If you don't have a lot of friends on facebook, it will suggest more friends of friends, if not those, then friends of friends of friends.

Is it really difficult to believe you and this guy in Iceland are separated by only two or three degrees?

Sounds very cool.

[sootman]

Video demonstration here.

Or maybe...

[lazyron]

just don't install the Facebook app?

Re:Wouldn't you need to install something?

[__aaclcg7560]

That seems like it would be illegal.

If the FBI can get away with it, why not a Fortune 500 company?

Why this PopSci article?

[parallel_prankster]

This article seems to point to Gizmodo that then points to the Facebook article which is the original source. Why not provide a direct link to the original Facebook ad https://www.facebook.com/busin... http://www.adweek.com/news/tec... Also, Gizmodo article does mention that the retailers wont be able to figure out individual "conversions" from ad to store visit, they will only be able to get an idea of percentage numbers from total ads seen to total visits. Then, Facebook’s Offline Conversions API will match in-store visit data (tracked using the phone’s location services) with Facebook advertising data. So, H&M won’t be able to see if you individually visited after its “store locator” sent you strong subliminal messages, but it will be able to match visits with the number of people who saw that ad in their feed and felt compelled to walk in.

An Apple user asks..

[TigerPlish]

Does Android permit any app to access Location Services without the user allowing it?

In iOS the default is "NO," and one has to explicitly grant access to any app that wants to access Location Services (and Microphone, Camera, Photos, Contacts)

It must be profitable, but how?

[ErichTheRed]

I know no one ever went broke underestimating the idiocy of typical consumers, but do people _really_ buy every single thing someone sticks an ad in their face for? Is advertising really that powerful? Will knowing that X male, 35-44 year old, potentially Republican Facebook users entered the East Nowhereville Walmart make any difference to Walmart?

I admit I'm not a hipster embedded in the SV startup culture, but this new dotcom bubble based on advertising (again) is looking a lot like the old one from an outsider's perspective. The difference this time is that everyone has a tracking device in their pocket and voluntarily gives these marketing companies the Big Data they need. And oh yeah, real time machine learning cloud analytics for synergistic cross platform marketing opportunities.

I might be an outlier, but I find ads intrusive. I'm not pissed off enough to worry about blocking them, but I certainly remember which companies and products have shoved the most obnoxious ads in my face and avoid them when it makes sense. I just don't get _why_ advertising works; it's annoying! It doesn't make (smart) people more willing to buy your product!

If you have a good product, all you need to do is get it in the hands of a few smart people who will tell their friends about it. That's it; there's no mystery.

Re:It must be profitable, but how?

[DogDude]

It's quite profitable, actually, yes. Facebook is an absurdly inexpensive way to reach customers.

Re:It must be profitable, but how?

[LeadSongDog]

You're looking for "The Hidden Persuaders", or more recently "Under the Influence". They'll answer your questions.

Re:It must be profitable, but how?

[thegarbz]

Think of Spam. The price to advertisment reaching multiple millions of people is about equivalent to catching the interest of just a handful of the targets. Spam worked because even 0.00001% of respondents made it profitable. I think internet advertising is similar.

Re:It must be profitable, but how?

[AthanasiusKircher]

I just don't get _why_ advertising works; it's annoying!

Yes, when it's too intrusive or "in your face." But marketing research for many decades has shown that "unconscious" (or "subconscious") processing for ads still has significant effects.

It's particularly prominent for simple things like brand familiarity. You may not be actively watching a TV commercial as you talk to a friend during the ad, but if your eye goes across the screen, you might see a product name. Or hear the product name mentioned repeatedly. Same thing with glancing through a newspaper or magazine -- you might not stop and read the ad, but repeated exposure to name brands will eventually register familiarity... even if you're not consciously thinking very much about it.

And thus when you go to the store, you start looking at the shelf for detergent and you see Tide. You've never really thought about laundry detergent consciously, but this name looks more familiar. So perhaps you're more likely to buy it.

It doesn't make (smart) people more willing to buy your product!

DING DING DING!!

Smart people are NOT the target audience for most ads. Smart people do weird stuff like research what laundry detergent might actually work better BEFORE they even go to the store. They might stop and read material and ingredients lists on the detergent before buying. They might even pull out their phone and verify that the claim to have "natural" ingredients even means anything, or if the detergent is just selling the same basic crap at twice the price for a "natural" label. (Pretty common practice these days.)

Smart people use and seek out information to influence a purchase. Advertising is all about finding ways to convince you to buy something on the basis of something other than rational thought and valid information. If it were about those things, the best ads would just consist of a list of specs for good products... and obviously they don't.

Re:It must be profitable, but how?

[nitehawk214]

HEINZ IS THE GOD OF KETCHUP, THERE SHALL BE NO BLASPHEME HERE

Err, I mean, advertising does not affect me that much. I only buy products that I have tried and have found to be good.

Re:It must be profitable, but how?

[LVSlushdat]

No kidding.. Hunts ketchup is like plain tomato sauce, no flavor, whereas Heinz has a nice tangy flavor, and I discovered that the Walmart house brand tastes *just* like Heinz, in my opinion.. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Heinz doesn't *make* Walmart's house brand...

Re:It must be profitable, but how?

[LVSlushdat]

might be an outlier, but I find ads intrusive. I'm not pissed off enough to worry about blocking them, but I certainly remember which companies and products have shoved the most obnoxious ads in my face and avoid them when it makes sense. I just don't get _why_ advertising works; it's annoying! It doesn't make (smart) people more willing to buy your product!

No, I don't think you're an outlier.. I watch VERY little tv anymore as the commercial load is staggering.. It seems like 2 min of show and 5 min of endless repetitive commercials. The more I see and am annoyed by a given products commercial, the less I would EVER buy that product.. In fact, I've started a list of items that, due to their endless commercials on tv, elsewhere, I will NEVER do business with them, even if I might have provided they didn't annoy the living crap out of me...

Re:It must be profitable, but how?

[Pfhorrest]

Advertising is all about finding ways to convince you to buy something on the basis of something other than rational thought and valid information.

Back in college I was doing homework in the cafeteria for my informal logic class, and a friend who was not in that class was also studying next to me. I noticed he had a handout with a list of things like "appeal to authority", "appeal to emotion", "appeal to popularity" and such on it, and I asked what class he had that was studying informal fallacies too, if not the informal logic class I was in. He said that that wasn't a list of fallacies, that was a list of... tactics or approaches or something like that... from a class about marketing or advertising he was taking.

A list of advertising tactics is literally identical to a list of informal logical fallacies.

Re:It must be profitable, but how?

[swillden]

They might even pull out their phone and verify that the claim to have "natural" ingredients even means anything

It doesn't. Oh, it may be true that the ingredients have been processed less, but it's still meaningless. Chemicals are chemicals. The only possible difference -- and only in some cases -- is that the "natural" chemical may be one that we have a bit more experience with. Maybe.

Flawed logic

[QuietLagoon]

...The will allow advertisers to see in real time which Facebook ads are turning into actual sales.

Has anyone ever proven the link between what ads I view and where I walk? The advertising industry has built their entire business model upon causality they hope happens, as opposed to causality they have shown to exist.

Re:Flawed logic

[DogDude]

People seeing ads for businesses in the towns where they live is more effective than people seeing ads for businesses in places where they don't live. It's pretty simple. That's why a business in Maine doesn't take out advertisements in a newspaper in California.

It's bad enough

[opusbuddy]

...that they track my face. Now they want to track my ass as well...

Then I will...

[Dcnjoe60]

The will allow advertisers to see in real time which Facebook ads are turning into actual sales.

If this is allowed, then I will intentionally go to the direct competitor of those advertisers and purchase goods and services there, instead. It's ironic that if the authorities wanted that type of data for an investigation, Apple and Google would fight turning it over, but seem quite content with FB using it for whatever invasion of privacy they want.

FaceSlim alternative

[NotARealUser]

Some people "can't" abandon Facebook. (Not saying they shouldn't, but they think it is too important).

They could secure more privacy by ditching the official Facebook app and installing the open source lightweight FaceSlim app instead ( https://f-droid.org/repository... ) I believe it does not use background data and best of all, it still allows access to Facebook messaging without Facebook Messenger being installed.

Google already does this

[MobyDisk]

My Android phone recently started displaying toast messages asking me "Would like like to share this photo of *place you are at* on Google Plus?" Not only is it a privacy violation, it is a feature I absolutely never want to use. I don't even use Google Plus. SOOOO FRIEKING ANNOYING. It's like every other day now I have to find some app and disable it's ability to display notifications. And that's just hiding the problem, rather than fixing the underlying issue.

This assumes we all use Facebook

[bettodavis]

Which at least for me, I'm sure I don't and never will. And seeing the kind of Big Brother shenanigans they want to pull off, such refusal becomes an even firmer conviction every day.

Better Idea

[cyriustek]

1) If you do not need a mobile phone, do not carry one.

2) If you need a mobile phone, make sure it is not a smart phone.

3) If you must have a smart phone, turn off wifi, turn off location services, remove the microphone, and remove the camera.

Re:Better Idea

[NatasRevol]

4) Print out maps when driving places. Also, watch TV to see if there's a traffic jam

5) Don't ever get lost. Or have a flat. Or run out of gas. Also, know where EVERYthing is.

6) Make sure not to destroy your phone while doing surgery to remove said microphone (making it only a audio out device, WTF do you even call that) and camera.

7) Hope you have a pinhole camera to take pics

Re:Better Idea

[virtig01]

... remove said microphone (making it only a audio out device, WTF do you even call that)

To be fair, you'd still have the audio input/output jack; grab your earbuds when making a call.

chicken? egg?

[MagicM]

"That guy likes books. Let's show him ads for books."
"That guy went to a book store. I bet it's because we showed him ads for books, and not just because he likes books."

Re:chicken? egg?

[DogDude]

No, you've got it wrong.
"This guy likes books. He lives here. Let's show him ads for bookstores around here."

One more reason to hate Facebook

[sjbe]

As if I didn't need another reason to be glad I'm not on Facebook...

This is a great thing!

[thegarbz]

The will allow advertisers to see in real time which Facebook ads are turning into actual sales

So maybe advertisers will finally understand that we don't give a shit about advertisements on a mobile platform and leave it alone.

Re:This is a great thing!

[LVSlushdat]

I guess theres enough idiots who install their app to make this worthwhile.... (shakes head)

Other options

[emil]

You may want some, or all, of these:

• -Xprivacy, a module in the Xposed framework, can be used to deny location access to any application, including Facebook. Your phone must be rooted to install Xposed modules.
• -Cyanogenmod PrivacyGuard has a similar feature. You must erase your OEM operating system to install Cyanogenmod.
• -3rd-party Facebook clients:
• • -Face Slim is very current, with patches in the last few days to deal with Facebook's messenger "night of the long knives."
  • -Tinfoil is the best-known skeleton client, but has been recently silent on the messenger issue. The app currently crashes if you try to use messenger functions.
  • -Several closed-source Facebook clients can be found in the Play store, who MIGHT respect your privacy.

Re:Other options

[samwichse]

Or, a phone with Android 6.

Just go to the app in Settings->Apps and turn off the location switch.

I can see the code already

[ThatsNotPudding]

If isBlack(customer) DropDiscountOffer()

Tinfoil versus Face Slim

[emil]

Tinfoil now crashes when you attempt to use messenger, and there is no commentary from the developer if he can/will fix it.

I suggest that you examine the Face Slim client on F-Droid. He has released a recent, new version which solves the messenger problem.

I do need a client that will upload photos on KitKat. If I can find that, then the official Facebook client is history on all of my devices - their code is no longer welcome.

No they won't...

[rnturn]

... because I've turned off the GPS on my phone. FB will only know when I call 9-1-1 in a physical store. And I'm not sure how they will even know that if I haven't installed any of their software on my phone.

maybe don't use so many stupid apps

[Kreplock]

I keep location services disabled 98% of the time on my phone, and never use the FaceBook app, but instead use a browser.

But yeah, the average moron is going to download every website app they get offered just because it exists.

Mustache off, please

[Darth Hubris]

"GPS needs to be on and set to high accuracy mode in order to detect your location and activity" We understand each other, my Android friend.

Their app? or not?

[LVSlushdat]

I'm gonna assume (yeah I know...) that this bullshit "feature" only works if you're stupid enough to use their iPhone/Android app.. What VERY little use I make of FB on my Android phone (hint: slightly more than zero) is done via a webbrowser. I'm sick and tired of EVERYbody wanting you to install their app... My phone has 16GB of space and the ONLY apps that are allowed on it are ones *I* want... FUCK THE REST...

Re:ARE YOU GUYS/GALS THIS NEW?

[LVSlushdat]

Politicians and military members are sworn to an oath to defend from enemies foreign and domestic.

Politicians are a "domestic enemy".. 99.999% of them completely ignore the oath they took to support/defend the Constitution.. (I bet they had their fingers crossed behind their backs when they took the oath)

This is a joke, right?

[Ensign_Expendable]

No???

Sorry, that's a shit sandwich

[rsborg]

(and he has no other option)

Yes they do. This level of tracking requires location services, something which you can disable and doing so only affects a minority of applications for which the service can be enabled at specific cases.

It's not anywhere near as bad as you make it out to be.

Turning on and off location services globally just so specific apps can give you directions? So much for all that fun geo-fencing, or even persistent map applications. Google Now location based cards are disrupted completely.

As it stands, on Android, Facebook might even be able to use wifi AP point details address to guess your location. That information, IIRC, is not visible from iOS.

Re:Sorry, that's a shit sandwich

[thegarbz]

Just because you find an application important doesn't make it any less true. With 300+ apps on my phone location services are required for functionality on less than 10 i.e. a minority.

As it stands, on Android, Facebook might even be able to use wifi AP point details address to guess your location.

Some how I don't think you understand what "location services" I was talking about. Hint: It's not turning off your GPS.

Question: only Mobile or any FB accout?

[Morpeth]

I have a FB account, but only use it on my desktop/tablet, NOT on my phone. I can't tell from the article if FB is just getting the GPS data from other means on your phone (which seems dubious at best), or are you free of this nonsense if you don't have their mobile app installed?

A-B Testing required

[ripvlan]

Just because I walk into a store doesn't mean I purchased the item in question. Although if the numbers of people entering a store increase one might draw a correlation.

But - they really need is A-B testing. Show a population A an ad, and B sees nothing. Then is there an increase for group A and visits to the store in question.

Someone else made a statement recently that Home Depot could see his purchases made in the real world and sent him a message (although not sure the connection ie "How" between the two was made). So if FB could connect it to sales as well -- then they could prove the ads work.

Don't they already do that?

[immortalcrab]

About two months ago I was searching for a men's cologne in several specialized stores in my town with my wife, then we hit a restaurant and ordered checking our Facebook accounts and what not while waiting, both were bombarded with perfume adds. We didn't even touched the phones while searching for my cologne.

How would they actually know?

[carbonates]

Just spoof your location on your phone. They be recommending good gin joints in Casablanca in no time.

So?

[RockDoctor]

These details are collected from anyone who has the location services feature turned on

As far as I'm aware, my laptop doesn't have location services.

Plus, of course, I don't have a Facebook account any more.

So, how are Facebook going to track which stores I go into again?