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CS Professor Argues Silicon Valley Is Exploiting Both H-1B Visas And Workers (huffingtonpost.com)
schwit1 quotes Norm Matloff, a CS professor at the University of California at Davis, on H-1B visa programs:
The Trump administration has drafted a new executive order that could actually mean higher wages for both foreign workers and Americans working in Silicon Valley. The Silicon Valley companies, of course, will not be happy if it goes into effect... Their lobbyists claim there is a "talent shortage" among Americans and thus that the industry needs more of such work visas. This is patently false. The truth is that they want an expansion of the H-1B work visa program because they want to hire cheap, immobile labor -- i.e., foreign workers.
To see how this works, note that most Silicon Valley firms sponsor their H-1B workers, who hold a temporary visa, for U.S. permanent residency (green card) under the employment-based program in immigration law. EB sponsorship renders the workers de facto indentured servants; though they have the right to move to another employer, they do not dare do so, as it would mean starting the lengthy green card process all over again.
Computerworld also argues this year's annual H-1B visa lottery "may be different, because of President Donald Trump," reporting that the lottery has historically favored the largest firms heavily. "In the 2015 fiscal year, for instance, the top 10 firms received 38% of all the H-1B visas in computer occupations alone. All these firms, except for Amazon and to a partial extent IBM, are outsourcers."
To see how this works, note that most Silicon Valley firms sponsor their H-1B workers, who hold a temporary visa, for U.S. permanent residency (green card) under the employment-based program in immigration law. EB sponsorship renders the workers de facto indentured servants; though they have the right to move to another employer, they do not dare do so, as it would mean starting the lengthy green card process all over again.
Computerworld also argues this year's annual H-1B visa lottery "may be different, because of President Donald Trump," reporting that the lottery has historically favored the largest firms heavily. "In the 2015 fiscal year, for instance, the top 10 firms received 38% of all the H-1B visas in computer occupations alone. All these firms, except for Amazon and to a partial extent IBM, are outsourcers."
Seeings how they are TRAINING their low wage replacements, exactly how low talent are they??
Anyone who doesn't understand that low talent is the new code word for "we make too much money according to you" needs to wake up!
We can't meet the demand for technical workers with homegrown talent.
We need the highly skilled H1B techs to keep our tech kingdoms intact.
Profit!
What doesn't the good professor understand?
#noshitsherlock
This makes me wonder: If it were very easy and quick to get a green card (or something along those lines), how would that influence the hiring decisions of companies? They would not be able to exploit the system in the ways that they allegedly do now. And people who want to come and work in the USA can still do so and concentrate on their work and their life instead of jumping through the hoops of green card programs and all that jazz. Perhaps that way everybody wins. I don't know.
Let the H1-Bs change companies easily. Those who suck will stay low wage and not be a problem for me. Those who are good can easily find a job that pays them what they're worth.
And how many of these sillicon valley firms are finacially based offshore ? meaning externalities are born by the local taxpayers.
Nice to hear that when it comes to setting up a business in USA the current group of tech firms and their founders wish to contribute NOTHING to the society that raised them, no loyalty except to the dollar, sounds like a certain middle eastern 2000yo tribe...
There are a lot of drafts created, we won't know what the rules actually are until Trump decides which one to sign.
I do like the idea of the minimum pay for a H1B job to be set high, but we'll see what is actually done.
If you want to end exploitation of H1B visa holders, it seems like the easiest step would be to let visa holders change employers without restarting the H1B process. This would reduce the exploitation factor, since employees could walk away from bad jobs. It wouldn't require guessing what a reasonable salary bound would be, but would let the market decide that, instead.
This blatant abuse of the law must stop. It's time to start putting the leaders of these companies and everyone in the HR food chain in jail.
Any H1-B visa holder shall be paid 50% more than the median salary.
Or even shorter and simpler to understand:
H1-B visas are hereby abolished.
Economists would say that way to allocate scarce resources (the H1B quota) would be to auction them. Why not award a 1/12 of the quote each month to the highest salary offers in the pool. If companies really have to have those foreign developers then they'll have to pay for them. It would certainly make them look closer at the domestic talent pool.
In particular, there is no early way out and after you have served your time you are free. This really does not match what is going on here.
As to the issue itself, if H1Bs are reduced enough or made economically non-viable, companies will just move the jobs offshore. There really is no way for US workers to win this one and anybody saying differently is a big fat liar, ah, I mean "purveyor of alternate facts" of course!
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Then the US government wouldn't allow the company sponsoring the worker to have any control over his status, well at least after some trial period.(Say 6 months) I mean really, if it was about talent would anybody want a talent guy to get the boot back to his country because of the whims of his boss? (Yes, I know it's politics is the real reason they let companies own people under H1B)
Did you know 80 to 90% of the moderators on slashdot wouldn't recognize a troll even if one dragged them under a bridge.
In the US there is the H1B, in Canada there is the TFA. Same problem with both, primarily outsourcing companies use them, and the foreign workers wind up working at a high tech company while the spouse of the worker ends up working at McDonalds.
Companies like Google and Facebook pay their H-1B workers quite well. Their problem has been that the H-1B visas in recent years have been snapped up by low-paying outsourcing and contracting firms who have spammed the H-1B lottery with applications.
Trump's proposed system gives priority to H-1B visa applications based on salary. This is a big win for Silicon Valley companies, because they pay some of the highest salaries. It's a big loss for the outsourcing and contracting firms.
The government should charge $125k/year, or some other number, for each one. The company gets to take the salary off of that. That said, the ramp up to y2k allowed IT salaries to also become unrealistic for what most of the industry does and is qualified to do. It does need to adjust.
I guess people have caught on to the fact that H-1B visas became portable long ago and Matloff's "H-1B visa holders are indentured servants" was nonsense, so he had to come up with a new myth. First of all, when you get hired as an H-1B, your employer has no idea whether you will start the green card process, so they have to regard you as someone who can leave at any time, just like any American worker. Furthermore, since 2000, you can usually change employers even while your green card process is pending.
The Society of German Engineers (VDI) regularly hyperinflates the numbers of required IT experts and engineers and open positions by orders of magnitude to get more people into University studying related fields to keep up the supply of fresh cheap graduates that can be bought cheaply and sold out expensively and score contractors some neat margins. It's the very same kind of ultimate bullsh*t, just with a slightly different goal.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
Back in the 90s, it wasn't such a problem because there was a lot of work.
After the dot-com crash/01, the job market really tightened up - but people, especially employers still thought the job market was still as hot was it was in 1999. So, if one were unemployed, it meant you were no good.
Today, many employers will not hire unemployed people - especially in tech. They get around any laws and lawsuits by not giving feedback (you hear nothing after applying), send the "you don't have the skills" excuse email, or some other lameass thing.
Here's how to get hired as developer/engineer/programmer: be a 20 something with a degree from Stanford, MIT or some other top school.
BS CS from State? Learn this: "Have you tried turning it on and off?" or "Would you like room for cream?"
I'm totally against H1-Bs but at the same time, I am well aware there is a talent shortage. I've worked in the tech industry for over 20 years and it's exceedingly rare to find an engineer who actually knows what they're doing.
The cost of housing has increased dramatically forcing the disabled and poor on to the streets. A contributing factor for this is the large number of H1B tech workers in the area earning over 6 times the poverty level and over twice the average of non tech workers. When 15% of the workforce are guaranteed to be guest workers and up to 30% at companies are guest workers through partnership and alliances. That brings this group of high wage earners to be a significant portion of the population. Having that much more money causes housing prices to go up. The flip side of this problems is that these H1B workers are being used to replace older engineers and force the wages for all engineers to be reduced.
America needs the best and brightest, but replacing experienced engineers and increasing homelessness by using H1B is not the answer. Increase the quality of public education, lower the cost of collage degrees, create a higher barrier of entry for guest workers is the way.
In the 80’s American companies moved manufacturing out of America, The decline in manufacture jobs causing Trump to be elected. Now education is being moved off shore by importing guest workers. In a few years who will be “elected” because public education is gone?
We will see if Trump is a populist or fascist in dealing with the H1B issue.
The outgoing workers being forced to train their replacements.
And the incoming schmucks who are so desperate that they'll work for peanuts while the sponsoring companies, e.g. Infosys, Wipro, Satyam, Tata, Microsoft, Accenture[1] charge hefty rates for their services.
But Twitler will fix it. Just like he's going to make Mexico pay for the wall. It'll be great.
[1] https://visacoach.org/2009/02/...
Not to mention they just don't want to pay someone like me with Astrophysics and Computational Math Degrees 80-100k+ when they can pay an H1B worked from India or w/e 60k... ridiculous and it leaks our secrets and intellectual property to Asia and Other Countries... I think outsourcing in general is unacceptable, for example building most of our phones which hold our private data in China is absolutely absurd, how many backdoor chips have we found in Chinese Made Phones sent to America? How many Software backdoors have we found? Got a hint n > 0... I am a UC Alumni trained and educated in the Silicon Valley, the behavior of Apple, Microsoft and Especially Google is Unacceptable, and should be downright illegal.
This video is 9 years old and things are as bad as ever:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU
Just remember, "our clear goal is to not find a qualified and interested American worker".
The problem is not with what Trump is doing. The problem is that too many big tech companies were realizing that their gravy train of cheap tech labor could be going away. You know, the Mexican equivalent of foreign labor willing to work long hours for less than stellar pay just to work in America. Yes, I totally agree there is a lot of US citizens sitting out technology because of the H1B abuse. If these technology countries were so worried about foreign visa holders and immigrants. How come nobody was concerned when hundreds of thousands were being displaced because of the foreign conflicts? Yea, it was only until it hit their pocket books that they now care. Bottom line we should most certainly curb immigration when we cannot even put our own qualified people to work.
Why not try "importing" cheap labor from other parts of the US?
I mean sponsoring "immigrants" from lower paid workers from surrounding states.. paying them less than those already conditioned to the higher life style cost of living in California.
I think its pretty much the same solution as fixing wages for peoples incoming to the US or just moving around the US is.. about the same thing.
The H-1B visa unintentionally set a "fixed" Lower Maximum Wage.. the terms Wage contract meant if they needed to downsize they did not have to give the employee or make notice in the news or press.. two big benefits to companies seeking to control wages and headcount.
Making a solution increasingly complex just continues the game.
Just cancel the game.
Ok, so Silicon Valley contains a lot of tech companies that want to operate efficiently, so they’re going to naturally look for ways to cut costs, including employee salaries. H1-B workers are cheaper, so they’ll naturally want to investigate that option. Many H1-B visa holders are pretty decent, so they’re viable to hire. The tech company lawyers will be checking to make sure they’re being legal in their hires, but of course, they’re going to make sure they only conform to the letter of the law, and they’re always going to be trying to look for loopholes.
In other words, who is daft enough to think that SV tech companies wouldn’t as a matter of course be exploiting H1-B visas and workers to the maximum extent possible?
I mean, this is total no-brainer stuff here.
The more competitive and successful your business, the more you are exploiting the available resources - these days especially human resources.
If the resources being exploited are in agreement that it is a mutual benefit, then we're all good.
.... for Americans in the first place? If a person is legally living in the USA, then they rightly should have about the same cost of living as an American and be entitled to the same lifestyle as anyone else doing the same job. Since where a person is from should not be a factor on whether a person is hired in the first place except to the extent that it may affect their ability to do the job, it should have absolutely *NO* effect on how much they are getting paid to do the job either. Doing so is grossly discriminatory, and employers that want to get away with this are no better than those involved in human slave trade, and in my view should be treated with equal contempt.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
All H1-B visa requests should go into a pool and from that entries should be selected in descending order from the highest wages. Then the companies that are seriously trying to bring someone in that they really can't get would get the people they need. I have seen companies try to bring a single person in and where offering a LOT for the job but never won the lottery for the H1-B slot.
This seems like it would almost entirely address the current problems of H1-B being used to drive wages down. It is hard to drive wages down when the slots are essentially auctioned.
There are companies outside of the tech companies that do pull in highly qualified people with H1-B and don't screw their workers over.
I am sick and tired of the system being abused to lower wages and treat people like servants as so many of the tech companies do. Most of them where even involved in agreements with each other in silicon valley to drive wages down. The system needs to be fundamentally fixed and the companies abusing it needed to be fined MORE than what the H1-B system abuse saved them.
Computer modeling for biotech drug manufacturing is HARD!
Yeah, this would be the magic bullet. Too bad for them that India is not a Muslim country, and that the bulk of Indian Muslims who emigrate go to Gulf countries, for good reason, rather than to Western countries
All these countries should go talent shopping to countries like Iran, Somalia, Yemen, Sudan, et al, so that all those Liberal activists who are on their case for hiring from India or Eastern Europe would be forced to prioritize b/w their Trump derangement vs the interests of US workers.
Old timers here might remember Robert X Cringely from InfoWorld decades ago. He has an interesting take on the H1B program here.
Comments are even more interesting. If you're not familiar with the controversy around his kids' Kickstarter project, strap on your seatbelt and get ready for a wild ride!
There is a lot of "myths" out there about this subject. Sometimes it helps to look at the actual LCA applications that have been filed to import nonimmigrant guest workers to take American jobs. Hopefully these links will help answer some of your questions: Are H-1B's really paid what Americans are paid? http://h1bhuntinglicenses.com/... What jobs are these Hunting Licenses being Purchased For? http://h1bhuntinglicenses.com/...
Oooh I get modded off topic for trying to be satirical of the typical liberal histrionic response yet when I do it I got modded Offtopic but liberals get modded Insightful. I thought this was supposed to be News for Nerds not Liberal Propaganda?
We'll make great pets
Too bad for them that India is not a Muslim country
I stand corrected, it's unconstitutional because it's an anti-Hindu executive order! That must be the real motive...
We'll make great pets
If you can only find your employees in India, etc., then move your company there, bitch.
There's clearly no shortage at all of skilled workers.
There's a shortage of ethical companies, that's all.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
I am on a TN working in South Bay, after coming from Canada a couple years ago. Interestingly enough, I didn't get picked up for the H1B a couple times now. I wonder if this was a good thing or a bad thing - at least I am in a class of work visa that is different from H1B, but obviously, that's very much tied to bilateral agreements or NAFTA b/w US and Canada. H1B season is again around the corner - what do you guys think? Stay TN or "upgrade" to H1B?
You don't have to be a CS professor to see it. Professorship explains why it took him so long to notice.
"The Silicon Valley companies, of course, will not be happy if it goes into effect..." -- that's sheer incompetence.
We pay competitively, we will not be negatively affected. In fact, if the H1B change goes into effect we will be ecstatic because we will actually be able to get the needed visas. Currently we are competing with predominantly Indian outsourcing swetshops who bring in workers at 60 grand a year. They blatantly abuse the program by creating dozens of shell companies who all file for the same workers gaming the lottery while we can't get 2 visas per year to convert our Waterloo interns.
It's legalized slave trading. And pretty much everyone is doing it because it is easy and cheap and there are virtually no repercussions for gaming the system and abusing your workers.
Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
I am well aware there is a shortage of companies willing to pay what talent actually deserves. I've worked in the tech industry for over 20 (40 for me) years and it's exceedingly rare to find an engineer who actually knows what they're doing that will take a lowball salary, is under 30, doesn't need good insurance, doesn't live like a rat in a box, doesn't have a family to support, and is willing to move to your ultra-expensive tech enclave and abandon their home and community for income at levels that is a fraction of their worth and cannot possibly maintain their standard of living...
FTFY
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
It's not quite as old as the great Four Tops hit (1966), but Prof. Matloff has been writing on the topic of immigration for more than 20 years. Here's a link to some of his earlier writings that precede the current H1-B debate: http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/...
The real cure for this is to make IT a licensed profession like teaching, accounting, medicine, law and engineering. Look back over that list of 5 professions - is there any serious doubt that quality, ethical IT that meets some kind of minimum standards is as needed for modern society as in those five?
But licensing has a second effect that has similarities to unionization. (In some ways, it's the opposite of unions - a state licensing body has to explain to new professionals every year that THEY do not get a THING for their dues, because the organization does not serve THEM...it serves the public trust, protecting the public from bad work) . But by doing that, it also keeps out crappy competition CALLING itself professional, while mainly getting the job by cutting the price in half.
For all the whining the Left does about the rich running things, they sure don't seem to mind it when globalist oligarchs call the tune and demand unlimited immigration to lower the wages of working people.
#Cuckerberg
With an union as well!
licensed profession like teaching, medicine, law and engineering are union in varying ways.
I wrote this as a reply to another post recently but got no replies, so posting it here. Either people read it and couldn't answer or I was too late to the post. So hopefully I'll get more answers here. I understand that there's a lot of anger here and in so many posts over the past years that was tagged as H1b. And being an international student from India working on my PhD (who eventually would need a H1b to work here), some of the really racists comments made me mad/sad as well but I let it pass. I would like to start a thread with what people over here think would happen. There are lot of smart people here, so I'd like your objective (preferably without prejudice which is hard) opinion on how this would play out. I'd like your opinion on what would happen: (1) to US nationals who are seeking/laid off employment in IT sectors. For example, will they immediately get jobs at the the salary they are willing to work for? (2) to US companies that are currently using the contractors to displace US workers. Will they immediately employ US nationals for they pay they requested? Or do something else? (3) the contract companies themselves, who seem to abuse the system. Do they stop taking clients from US companies? Or do everything offshore? in the next 1 year, 3 years, 5 years, if, there are heavy restrictions placed on the H1b system so that its really not viable for US companies to use or if the H1b visa system is completely scrapped. I understand this is a hypothetical scenario and just want your realistic opinions on how this would move forward. Also, do you think that people like me who have stayed here for years, worked hard on getting a PhD should leave after they graduate, even if they want to stay and work, and a company wants to hire them?
"waaaaaaaa i'm a snowflake with thin skin! not fair! not fair! waaaaaaa". Don't breed.
Interesting that this started in Washington state.
Trump seems to have the law on his side, but the 9th circuit court seems determined to ignore the law, ignore the clearly defined separation of powers, and legislate from the bench.
U.S. Code, Title 8, Chapter 12, Subchapter II, Part II, p1182(f) 2013 reads: "Whenever the President finds that the entry of any aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, he may by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or nonimmigrants, or impose on the entry of aliens any restrictions he may deem to be appropriate."
Note: "the President" the courts have absolutely no place in this. The matter is outside the jurisdiction of the courts.
There seems to be substantial precedence in this matter. The US has banned immigration from various countries since 1882. Restricting immigration from various countries goes back further than that - I think all the way back to the 18th century.
Both president Obama, and president Carter, restricted immigration from Muslim countries.
This matter should have never come before the court.
> This is a deliberate attempt to shift control over immigration from the executive and legislative branches to the judicial branch in order to grant foreigners a constitutionally protected “right” to enter the U.S. The 9th Circuit’s decision is way off-base.
> The Supreme Court has previously held that federal courts are prohibited from hearing cases asking them to declare illegal the exercise of a power that the Constitution assigns exclusively to the other branches of government. This rule is referred to as the “Political Question Doctrine.” It preserves the separation of powers by keeping the courts from assuming functions that should be performed by the legislature or the executive. The role of the courts is to interpret and apply the law, not to set the national security agenda, conduct foreign affairs, or craft our immigration policies.
> Applying the Political Question Doctrine, the Supreme Court has repeatedly said that the powers to legislate and implement the conditions for admitting aliens into the United States belong, respectively, to Congress and the executive branch. Article I, Section 8, Clause 4, of the United States Constitution specifically grants Congress the power to establish a “uniform Rule of Naturalization.” The power to pass laws governing who may enter and remain in the United States is implied in that power.
http://www.lifezette.com/polizette/trump-executive-orders-fall-victim-legislating-bench/
The 9th circuit court has a long, and sordid history of ultra-liberal activist judges, legislating from the bench.
From Lawfare:
> How to Read (and How Not to Read) Today’s 9th Circuit Opinion
> "Remarkably, in the entire opinion, the panel did not bother even to cite this statute, which forms the principal statutory basis for the executive order (see Sections 3(c), 5(c), and 5(d) of the order). That’s a pretty big omission over 29 pages, including several pages devoted to determining the government’s likelihood of success on the merits of the case."
https://www.lawfareblog.com/how-read-and-how-not-read-todays-9th-circuit-opinion
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C4TaLeEXAAA0c4g.jpg
It looks to me as though US District Judge James Robart in Seattle may be an activist judge, legislating from the bench. Or Robart may be influenced by Microsoft. Microsoft is unhappy about Trump's action because MS has some visa workers from those countries.
So on one hand "Silicon Valley abuses H1b", on the other, most H1bs aren't given to Silicon Valley companies so obviously if they abuse it, they are far from the top abusers of it, according to the numbers. Make your mind? I would also like to point out that the summary is misleading. Yes, once you are on the EB (employer sponsored) green card process, while you are waiting for it to be processed if you move employers you have to start all over (for obvious reasons since the labor certification process requires to specify skills that apply at the current position which can easily change if you move), but once approved the immigrant isn't bound to a single employer anymore. So not really sure how this is part of "Silicon Valley's abuse of H1bs" because it rather looks to me like them wanting to get these people here and have them stay permanently. Oh, you're thinking of Chinese/Russian/Indian citizens that have to wait 10+ years for the green card to be approved (which btw, is kinda insane if you think about it, people get married, have kids, get divorced, multiple times in that kind of time interval)? Well then why not try to propose something to _speed up_ their approval process and so then such people will be stuck in the EB approval waiting process for much less time? While it's true that statistically a large number of H1bs are abused (could be most of them right now) it's also true that a large number of them are being used to hire skilled talent that we want in this country, because if they are working for us here they are using their highly developed skills to boost this economy and they pay taxes for their income. The question of course is how to allow for these (or make it even easier for them) while making it hard for the abusers.
Great idea, but why arbitrarily reserve any spaces for cheaper positions, in some vain effort to be fair? If there really is a labor shortage, that means there's an acute supply reduction, so price should skyrocket. So give the first position to the highest paid H1-B applicant, and then on down the list with cheaper applicants until the quota has been filled. I cannot think of a more reliable indicator of need than price, and it's really hard to game. The argument that H1-B's are only wanted to be cheap slave labor categorically goes away. Now the American workers are in a position to undercut foreign works, and truly captures the idea of America first that Trump had in his inauguration speech. And it absolutely allows the superstars in, as they will be worth their huge salaries.
Each year US immigration can post the range of salaries that were granted H1-B's the prior year, so firms know what salary to target if they really need someone.
One downside is that this will favor the big Silicon Valley firms that can afford to pay. Perhaps you could inversely weight applicants by size of business or revenue or similar, but I feel this could be gamed (e.g., but having multiple fake front firms---subsidiaries---that act as a unit).
You're my new favorite slashdotter!!
I want to be able to take my self, my team maybe, my family maybe (depends on the situation) to whichever piece of rocky real estate on this watery planet that I want, as long as it has an Internet connection, and frickin' work and play.
I'm not telling you where I was born or grew up, because it doesn't matter and it's none of your damn business, as far as I can tell.
What's wrong with this model?
I suppose remnant governments fixing the roads and hospitals and stuff would still like to collect some tax on the proceeds of my work. Ok fine. But given my desire to explore the world while working, it would make more sense if there was a global tax collecting bureaucracy (a DAO) that could distribute the tax I pay based on some fair objective algorithm to more local jurisdictions, depending maybe on how much time I spend in each, what were they called?, oh yeah country.
Isn't this where we're going? Can't we just go with the inevitable flow here?
Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
We have some of the best universities in the world in the US. Many people come here to be educated.
If we do not have an adequately educated and trained talent pool in the US we have no one to blame but ourselves.
The real fix is to taper off the H1B system while at the same time get employment market feedback into our education system so that we turn out less english and art history majors and more scientists, engineers, and tradespeople.
There's one solution. Eliminate the visas & deport the current visa holders back to their country of origin.
The reason we can't have open boarders is because of socialism. You can't guarantee everybody the same income or a minimal income. However when you open boarders and people have to start competing with the rest of the world prices fall for everyone. The most affluent in wealthier countries will benefit by reduced prices and transitions to more profitable employment positions. The less skilled foreign workers will likely end up replacing current higher paid workers. But that isn't a bad thing economically.
The way things work now you suppress local wages by making sure companies can pay less than foreign workers are worth locally. This is done because of the way H1-B works. When an employer hires a foreign worker to work locally under H1-B they can't switch jobs while here. They are tied to the employer and so they can't demand more money without risking having to jump through significant hoops which include returning home and reapplying for another job under H1-B to come back. You could solve that problem, but increasing the amount paid to these foreign workers is not the best solution.
The best solution is to simply get rid of H1-B and open the boarder to a migration of foreign workers. It would bring down wages- but it also would bring down costs of doing business and costs of living in the US. It would also force better educated natives to re-train for better higher paying positions more readily available to them than cheaper foreign immigrants moving here for the job opportunities.
The reason we should really want open boarders comes down to freedom and liberty. Nobody should be trapped. If your a peaceful individual you should be able to come and go as you please without boarder checks. Those who aren't should be targeted regardless of whether or not they are at the boarder- but of course within the the scope of ones civil rights (you should not be raiding companies, homes, or setting up check points to do so). It's called go back to investigating crime. Yes- police suck at this- but it's not like the boarder checks are any better at stopping crime and they are extremely expensive.
Step 1: lift the lid on H1b visa's
Step 2: tell companies that they can hire as many immigrant tech workers as they want - but for EACH tech worker they bring over Rhey MUST hire 2 U.S. Workers at the same wage or higher
(3) create a task force that simply visits the companies to count the workers who are H1 versus non-H1. Make these checks random. For each incident where rule 2 is violated, fine the business 1 million dollars for the first occurrence, 5 million for each additional occurrence.
Watch as the H1 problem goes away and all of a sudden there is an abundance of tech workers
This dude has been making this kind of noise for over 20 years. I remember he testified at the US House of Representatives, making completely racist comments like "Chinese tech workers are lack of creativity....". I would just ignore him, he is just a mad dog of some politicians.
This all baffles me. Yes, H1B's are abused in other parts of the US to lower wages. Train replacements. All that stuff.
But I don't see that happening in Silicon Valley or San Francisco? I'm on a visa, and work for a large Silicon Valley company in their San Francisco office.
Everyone I know who's on a visa is paid well over 100k. Along with Bonus, RSUs etc we're all being compensated $250k-$300k. No one is getting cheap labor if they're paying us that much. And the companies are legit struggling to find talent for all the positions to fill!
If they increase the minimum wage on H1B to $150k we'll love it. We're already paying more than that. And it'll make it easier to get workers in, as the lottery currently makes the odds so low and all those mid west indian outsourcing companies are spamming the system with hundreds of thousands of visas for low paying jobs. Urgh.
But I really don't see anyone in Silicon Valley abusing these visa's. Salaries are insanely high here and only getting higher. Take away our visa's and they'll skyrocket even higher as the supply falls and demand continues to rise.
This is the example of how firms 'prove' that there is no available talent in US. Absence of replies is the 'proof': Got stamps?
(from https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/sof/5998564074.html
Technical - Multiple Positions
Cisco Systems, Inc. is accepting resumes for the following positions in San Francisco, CA: CNG Staff (Ref. #SF13): Provide quality technical support for our client and partner base. Manager, Software Development (Ref. #SF56): Lead a team in the design and development of company's hardware or software products.
Please mail resumes with reference number to Cisco Systems, Inc., Attn: V51B, 170 W. Tasman Drive, Mail Stop: SJC 5/1/4, San Jose, CA 95134. No phone calls please. Must be legally authorized to work in the U.S. without sponsorship. EOE.
Since Hindus don't have the practice of claiming victimhood status the way Muslims do, that approach won't work here. The reason it's haram to say things against Muslims/Islam is that since Communism ended, they are the most major anti-Western group out there that's opposed to everything traditionally Western, thereby attracting the support of the hard Left (despite the misogyny, homophobia, animal-cruelty and whole host of other things that would be considered toxic by traditional Liberals). No other group has that attitude - not Hindus, not Christians, not Jews, not Atheists, not Rastafarians, not Scientologists, not Buddhists, not Sikhs, not Taoists, not Jains, not Confucians, noone else!
If there's a talent shortage, then why are people being fired and replaced with H-1B workers, which actually have to be trained by the people that are being fired.. This is BS, there is no shortage, but those H-1B workers are just much cheaper, even though they cannot do the work as good as the original employees..
I worked at MSFT and shared an office with a fellow contractor. We both did the same job. Both worked for contract houses. I made $20 an hour more than he did. The difference? He was a recent immigrant. He already had his residency and no longer was temporary. But the US culture of not disclosing your income meant he didn't have a clue as to his real value.
The solution I propose is that for H1-B workers meant to provide specific missing skills, that the visa be granted for an existing open job that has gone unfulfilled for at least 2-3 months of proven advertising and interviewing of domestic candidates. And that the H1-B candidate be specifically named on the visa application along with the specific job, with documentation as to the applicants specific skills.
... Right now Mexico supports the illegal immigrants politically and it makes them look pretty bad not wanting to take back their own citizens. Since a lot of H1-B candidates have to be excessively trained already it likely wouldn't drop the quality. But the serious solution to the H1-B issue is one to one match before the visa is issued. No mass lottery with unnamed persons ... Make the changes and watch domestic candidates get more play.
As an aside if Mexico wanted to legitimize their export of people to the US, they'd form a large outsourcing company and grab up H1-B visas then charge people in Mexico to fill the positions for their visa
As a son of an immigrant I see both sides of being an employee. Severe unemployment on one spectrum or jobs that has nothing to do with my field;other spectrum long hours with tons of responsibilities wearing too many hats. When I do scan the job boards (I.e., Dice) for other jobs they are so advanced it's like they want Kobe Bryant out of highschool. I say let these companies have their way and compete directly against them. Boycott all their products (if you can), focus on open source and free software to leverage our resources and democratize the industry.
As a person who has worked under the H1B visa, my salary and bonuses were all tax free. Btw there was no training or education component.
This visa is and has been massively exploited by Organisations for too long.
IT unemployment is at 2% overall. That's less than half the general population unemployment rate. This means everyone in IT worth their salt is currently gainfully employed. This gives a lot of credence to the companies screaming for H1Bs. I'm sorry to say, this trumps all your anecdotes (no pun intended).
Google "india exam cheating" and click on images. Then we can start comparing education systems.
Lobbying. A company can hire a few lawyers, people with needed US mil/gov/police security clearances and the politically connected.
:) :)
Thats the wealthy inner core. By placing selected ads for US computer workers in news papers with readers who on average don't apply for computer work a legal case for a lack of US workers can be presented.
All US interviews can also be set up to fail. Once enough paperwork has been created a teams shows US bureaucrats the urgent need for expert workers.
International firms then help to find and place staff. The US jobs are then filled with union free, lower cost workers who fear for the loss of that work.
The savings in wages go to profit taking, generational shareholders, are used to attract new investors as a healthy profit exists.
The legal teams and politically connected staff also know to thank the political system that supports the visa system.
Over time the company has the exception is that cheap workers are now just part of how the US works and the profit taking will never end.
The US firms are now full of cheap staff who have no loyalty to the USA, who are just working for a low wage.
The US could seen see the EU idea of very short term "Posted workers" but with a global intake of cheap staff.
Very short term on site wage workers getting a wage that reflects what they are paid in their own nations.
A say a bank needs staff to set up a new site and needs a lot of cheap brand trusted staff. They fly the workers in for a month, legally play the lowest country of origin wages.
Fly the staff home. The US could seen see the EU idea of very short term globally "Posted workers".
The next legal trick is to keep the short term posted workers in country for a while. Almost becoming permanent jobs with low wages.
So far that wage gap in the EU has been the issue. But if low wages globally can be offered within the USA?
The final step will be in accepting any nations qualifications. Engineers, doctors, lawyers will be allowed to work in the USA if they have any paper work from their own nations. No wasting time on that open book US bar exam. Equivalence
The US legal teams that worked so hard to open the US to outside workers could be replaced by global teams.
A real US security clearance might be the only way to keep a US job
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
If you have a wife and kids and any of them have health problems and your employer offers you the coice of beinglet go on friday, or staying on for a month or two to train your replacement and keeping a paycheck and health insurance during that period (plus a possible additional severance period) you will do what's best for your family because that is your most vital responsibility.
This H1-B abuse cannot be stopped by individuals refusing to cooperate at work at a dark time in their lives when their families are under direct threat. This garbage can only be stopped by the politicians who write the laws and/or by mass boycotts against the companies engaged in these anti-American activities.
Are YOU going to Disney this year, or buying Disney stuff this year? Too many people cannot resist their kids' demands for Disney and so it's dubious that, all internet posturing aside, any boycotts will work. Political action is probably the only path against some of these crap sandwich corporations.
Easy solution: A new law stripping ALL intelectual property rights and protections from any corporation using visas to replace American workers.
If "everyone in IT worth their salt is currently gainfully employed" then the wages in IT would be going through the roof and kids in college would be rapidly switching majors to IT in order to get in on the lucrative career - it's called the "law of supply and demand" - you should look into it.
If prices for labor in a field are not rising rapidly, then there is no severe shortage. If the wages are not even rising moderately, then there is no shortage at all.
The basic laws of economics are no more violable than the basic laws of physics.
Claiming that IT is at "full employment" but wages are not skyrocketing is on par with claiming you have created a perpetual motion machine - it's bogus by definition by being a basic denial of a basic reality.
They are, I see it first hand. Under pay people desperate to work in the US, force them to work long hours, if they complain you ship them back....it's that easy.
Obscene amount of tax payer money is used to prop up the stocks of those companies beyond any meaningful valuation. The companies, with the help of HUGE cash infusion are guaranteed success far more than others who do not enjoy fruits of crony capitalism. Wall street picks winners and losers with tax payer money. Look at the market cap of amazon, which doesn't even have a viable business model without the trillions of dollars pumped in since its inception. And they are killing traditional retailers with the help of Uncle Sam.
Then the clique of executives at the top become filthy rich, become V.C.s in useless start ups, and either take them public (rinse & repeat) to rake in billions more or have them bough out by their own co. (again, investors/tax payers foot that bill) which nets them huge amounts with the shareholding they have.
IMO, the H1-B visa scam is the least harmful of what they have been doing to the U.S.
Stop being so butthealed faggot you won get over it.
Help Help I'm being oppressed on slashdot!
""In the 2015 fiscal year, for instance, the top 10 firms received 38% of all the H-1B visas in computer occupations alone. All these firms, except for Amazon and to a partial extent IBM, are outsourcers."
Maybe this is technically correct, but this statement is misleading.
In 2015, the top-8 firms received 49,539 H1-B visas or over 58% of the 85,000 nominal allotment. Of these, about 700 had advanced US degrees. All 8 were Indian outsourcing companies, and the overwhelming majority of the visa approvals went to Indian nationals, about 48,650 Indians from these top-8 firms.
Of course, the ironic thing was that a few years ago, my company was unable to obtain an H1-B visa for our new Indian worker who has an EE PhD from a top-5 US engineering school and is definitely top-notch. He was forced to apply for an outstanding researcher visa instead. Ironically, the low-paid, not outstanding Indians displaced the highly paid, very outstanding Indian.
Since Hindus don't have the practice of claiming victimhood status the way Muslims do, that approach won't work here
Oh apparently it does Trump is the uber racist, xenophobe remember? That applies equally to all "foreigners" including Hindus.
We'll make great pets
... as a person that sponsors a foreign national to come into the US.
As someone that did this for my ex-wife, I can say that would stop this ASAP. You have to GUARANTEE the person will have housing, health-care, a certain income, and a LOT of other things. If companies had to obey the same rules as a "normal" American that sponsors a foreign-national to come into the US that would stop these types of abuses immediately.
Had a friend that came from India and was sponsored by M$ - as soon as he got his green card they nixed him for cheaper "foreign" labor - suddenly he didn't have the skills he had only a few weeks before - of course as a green-card holder he was no longer willing to live 8 people to an apartment like he was to get his green card. That is what the "tech" companies are doing - using H1-B's as "slave" labor - plain and simple.
tired of the cheap passgive-aggressive chimps who drag the project down with their low talent.
Seems most don't realize this. Tech companies were the real reason the neo-fascists blocked the EO. What the hell has happened to the modern liberal leadership?!? You're a -1 on your comment at them moment, must be a lot of H-1B moderators today -- again. Sorry dude. Or, they simply missed your sarcasm.
In other news, scientists proclaim that water is wet.
This comment is my opinion and does not represent an official position of Donald Trump or others I do not work for
Was that before the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor, or after?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Anyone *not* suggesting both employees and the H-1b visa system are being played simply isn't paying attention - or doesn't want the cheap labor stream to end.