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Should International Travelers Leave Their Phones At Home? (freecodecamp.com)
Long-time Slashdot reader Toe, The sums up what he learned from freeCodeCamp's Quincy Larson: "Before you travel internationally, wipe your phone or bring/rent/buy a clean one." Larson's article is titled "I'll never bring my phone on an international flight again. Neither should you."
All the security in the world can't save you if someone has physical possession of your phone or laptop, and can intimidate you into giving up your password... Companies like Elcomsoft make 'forensic software' that can suck down all your photos, contacts -- even passwords for your email and social media accounts -- in a matter of minutes.... If we do nothing to resist, pretty soon everyone will have to unlock their phone and hand it over to a customs agent while they're getting their passport swiped... And with this single new procedure, all the hard work that Apple and Google have invested in encrypting the data on your phone -- and fighting for your privacy in court -- will be a completely moot point.
The article warns Americans that their constitutional protections don't apply because "the U.S. border isn't technically the U.S.," calling it "a sort of legal no-man's-land. You have very few rights there." Larson points out this also affects Canadians, but argues that "You can't hand over a device that you don't have."
The article warns Americans that their constitutional protections don't apply because "the U.S. border isn't technically the U.S.," calling it "a sort of legal no-man's-land. You have very few rights there." Larson points out this also affects Canadians, but argues that "You can't hand over a device that you don't have."
Depending on how long you're staying, you could send your phone via courier to meet you at your destination. Of course, then you have to trust the courier company and the customs agents handling the package.
Some poor third world country could offer diplomatic pouch courier service for nice tidy sum. From foreign companies who doesn't want to get spied on to wealthy Americans who want to hide tax haven from the government.
So what happens when travelers start carrying attack hardware & software that bites back. Imagine that the border agent sticks your phone into his reader and along with your data your phone injects a virus into his system. This can be done at very low levels. Or your 'phone' might simply send out 200,000 volts of power through the connection frying boarder patrol's expensive equipment.
Sounds like a good plot for a thriller spy movie...
And it's all possible.
Oh you want my phone, do you? Well you'll have to defeat me in a duel!
Cloud service that lets you upload encrypted image of phone, and download the same. For $25.
Not talking about iCloud either (not cost effective).
Am somewhat skeptical of the implied 'trust your data in the cloud' message from these articles.
I travel a lot. And whenever i can avoid it, i avoid the US. I have lived in Europe and Australasia and travelled a lot between the two and never had any issues, except when traveling through the US.
I'm actually an atheist, but the Constitution was written on the foundation that ALL people have these INHERENT rights. Just because you don't have legal jurisdiction across the border doesn't mean those rights cease to exist.
The U.S. should set an example and respect individual rights wherever and whenever possible.
go to Canada with our phones or laptops since those Canadians are so hateful and racist. In 2007, they broke my nose with my iBook and stomped my Palm Treo onto oieces since they are so full of hate. Canada is a shit country that hates all of humanity. They hate so much.
If I recall correctly, you're obligated to let them search your phone (i.e. had it over), but you can't be compelled to give them the password. I guess they could delay you while they try to browbeat it out of you, and they presumably could confiscate the phone itself because they can't see what's on it, so it might be a high-cost stance to take.
reacting to these egregious violations of privacy by leaving your smartphone at home, or simply not having one, seems somehow inadequate. The fascists will simply keep pushing and pushing, gradually closing the net around you as they have ever since the passage of the (un)PATRIOT Act. In an actual free and open society, stealing, er excuse me "confiscating" someone's property and then demanding the victim give up their password would be illegal, and the very idea that the 4th Amendment to the United States Constitution shouldn't apply just because you are near the national border would be laughable. But we're not a free country, are we? No, not for a long time now.
You must give border agents a key that will unlock your phone, but what if your phone had multiple levels of unlock? One key unlocks it to show a minimal contact list, texts and phone call histories of only select contacts and web history of only whitelisted sites. Sign in with a different key and suddenly your full history is available. If the filesystem is encrypted who is to know you haven't done a full unlock for the border goons.
This is no different from the drill for laptops. On your travel day, back up your phone, encrypt the backup, send through your by vpn to a server stateside, reset the phone to factory defaults. Download the backup when safely stateside.
Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
I'm not sure that leaving your phone at home counts as "resistance" - it sounds more like surrendering.
#DeleteChrome
Just hide your phone when you get to the border. When they ask, just say no, I have no phone. Could this get someone in trouble if they fact do find it.
[($)]
If you are taking a trip to somewhere your phone requires roaming charges you should not take your phone with you.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
If you are worried about them accessing email or social media info, can't you just delete the app or remove the email account from your phone and re-add after leaving customs?
This won't be popular but: grow up. Nobody cares what's on your stupid phone. Border guards are mostly worried about - wait for it - protecting the border. They're not snooping people's Facebook accounts so they can post "ZOMG I eat dicks!" on there.
Nobody cares about the following items on your phone: your super-secret plans for an internet startup; your questionable pics in various states of undress (unless you're a supermodel); your ebook copy of Das Kapital; those drunks texts you sent your ex at 2am; or anything else personally sensitive / embarrassing. It's garbage. Border guards couldn't give a shit. All they want to check is that you're not posting pro-ISIS messages or smuggling drugs. That's it. Anything else is tinfoil hat delusional fantasies.
That's not to say all border guards are saints. Some may give you a hard time just because they can. But if you could show any of them took material from your phone and used it outside their job, they would be insta-fired and probably be incarcerated. No one's going to risk their career and their freedom for a few naughty pics.
If you're engaged in illegal activity, by all means refuse to unlock your phone. If you're paranoid about Teh Fedz sending black helicopters to trail you, then don't unlock your phone (also, seek mental help). Otherwise just do it and get it over with.
I'm not saying "you should unlock your phone because only criminals have something to hide". Not at all. I'm saying it's like a proctology exam. Yeah it sucks, and in an ideal world we shouldn't have to do it. But the best thing for all involved is to just man up and get it over with, then get on with your life. Not everything is worth making a federal case about.
If you're traveling to shady third-world banana republics or anywhere the standard response is "da, komrade" - then it may be worth getting a burner phone. But for western democracies, nobody gives two shits what crap you have on there.
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch.
Yes, and no.
The US military (which includes everything from SEAL Team 6 down to your local police officer it seems now) has a concept of "developed capacity is intent to use it." Yes, using this thought process means that since every woman has a vagina, then she has the intent to become a prostitute, which is absurd on it's face.
That's kind of the point here.
If TSA/ICE/some random cop on the beat has the capacity to slurp your phone, then obviously, while the intent might not be there, they certinaly could if they had the slightest reason do to so. Such actions as looking at them. Not looking at them. Appearing nervous. Appearing calm. Being dressed too well. Being dressed poorly. Being dressed differently. Not being dressed differently. Speeding. Not speeding. Going slower than the speed limit. Using a highway. Using back roads.
These are all excuses used in court to preform a "reasonable suspicion" search, including one officer in Georgia that used all of these excuses in a single month. (I'll add there wasn't a single conviction in the bunch, only complaints of rights violations where were dismissed.)
The point is that "over the top" applies not to just viewing with alarm the possibility of police abuse, it's been proven to happen. Frequently. Most often with absolutely no consequence to the officer, department, or state actor involved.
I forget where, but it's been said "If you don't give weight to your principals, then the first wind will carry them off." And I absolutely disagree that constitutional protections "don't apply" to the boarder. Yes, I'm aware that's how courts have ruled, but I am not saying it isn't treated like that, I'm saying it is a break with the honor of our laws to do so. Further, nothing in the constitution or the bill of rights denies civil rights other than voting or holding certain public offices to non-citizens, and it doesn't say "while in the territory of the US". These rights should apply in downtown USA the same as they apply where ever the United States holds defacto jurisprudence, even if it's not our country. In other words, no more "black sites" and "rendition" allowed.
We have been told over and over again that "They hate us for our freedoms", but I don't see that we have many freedoms we can be proud of any more, let alone ones others would envy. Indeed, I think we've done much more damage to ourselves with our "security" stance than the terrorists have done.
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
And we'll see it soon, is to have a separate password that resets the phone to a factory configuration.
Or, even better yet, multi-user phones. Keep one user account vanilla clean, and let them have fun.
I predict we will see one or the other this year.
I don't understand why people put secure things on their phone. Use a laptop instead and leave that at home, then there's no problem. You can even access it remotely if you want.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
> You have very few rights there
This does apply to them searching your phone, you have no choice. But it doesn't really apply to US citizens on giving up your password, if you have some time to spare that is. They cannot deny a citizen entry without cause, they can deny them their possessions or hold them for a "reasonable time." So eventually they have to allow citizens out of the constitution free zone, and into the US. Although they may be able to force you to give a fingerprint.
Of course this only applies to US citizens and US customs. Other countries are under no such consideration. But I am not sure many have any protections from search anywhere.
Just have a second (if iPhone) iCloud account set up with reasonable amount of apps and mail (subscribe to some mailing lists.)
Before travelling, backup, then restore your alternate clean identity.
After travelling, restore the correct one.
So we traded black Jesus for orange dingus and suddenly everyone is upset about something that has been happening for years that many of us have been trying to raise awareness of? Well if that's what it takes then at least something good may come of it, but pretending this is a Trump thing is, well, make believe. Stories of travelers, including US citizens, having phones and laptops searched, even demands for social media accounts, upon entry have been coming out for over a decade now. Glad the mainstream media may finally be catching the fuck on.
I browse on +1 so AC's need not respond, I won't see it.
Just create another Android account (for example) with plausible looking contacts, a second facebook account etc, then when they ask to see it just hand it over. Go back to the real one once you're in
so if it only happens to 1 in a 1000 people it's ok?
"If you've done nothing wrong then you've got nothing to hide." This is is quickly twisted into, if you're not carrying a phone then you must be hiding something: Tourists in the USA have already been stripped searched over this. It's like East Germany of old; surveillance is mandatory. Taking a wiped/unused phone is the better answer, not admitting that one objects to US surveillance. Then one can say some pervert (reading personal messages on Facebook or Twitter) put a virus on the phone requiring it to be wiped.
US police have confiscated phones outside the customs zone, both for surveillance and legalized robbery, so never put anything valuable on a phone.
The fourth amendment reads:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
There's some wiggle room in there, but the intent seems clear. Searches should be limited to those accused of a crime, and must be authorized by a judge/magistrate that there is probable cause.
I've been thinking about this since the recent article where a NASA JPL US citizen employee was detained and forced to give up his password.
I have a Chromebook. It's easy to wipe it completely to fresh out of the box factory settings. At the border, you can give them a completely blank computer. (or set up a dummy Chromebook account with nothing on it). Then when you are back safely in the US, just enter your credentials and it will download everything from the cloud and you're back in business.
Phones are a little more difficult. You can factory reset these but your SIM card still has data. You'd need to install a decoy SIM card in it (preferably a burner SIM from some odd place where it won't work in the US). You'll have to deal with your own SIM card by hiding it or mailing it to yourself. Once you reinstall your original SIM and login, the phone apps, etc. will restore themselves.
Either that or just buy a burner phone and ditch it before you return.
I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
This is not about travelling internationally, this is about entering the USA.
The US is becoming a risk for travellers, and more and more people I know now travel to the EU via Singapore, Hong Kong, Dubai, etc to avoid the US.
Conferences in the EU are preferred over US based ones.
Training courses in the EU are given higher priority than US based ones.
I have been to the US for work and for holidays over a dozen times, last trip we seen over $20,000 on transportation, accommodation, food, entertainment, gifts, etc etc etc. As a family we have chosen to remove the US from future travel plans and to the Europe, Asia, South America instead. We are voting with our wallets.
We are also considering what increased risks there is in buying US manufactured equipment, how long will it be before US IT equipment is no more trustworthy than Chinese IT gear ? (all my stuff at home is now German).
So, tell me, what happens with this US first policy when the 96% of the worlds population who are NOT US citizens choose US last, what happens to that $2 Trillion in exports ? As a guess, US companies will chose to spit into USA based and internationally based operations to try and avoid a backlash, so it may be MORE jobs leave the US than come back.
so if it only happens to 1 in a 1000 people it's ok?
Yes, dear AC, if it happens due to some level of reasonable suspicion. I take it you would prefer a system where CBP has no authority to search anything under any circumstances? Hopefully you don't actually live in the U.S. and thus benefit from its protections as you sit in the comfort of your own home (ok, ok, or your parent's basement) and crank out ignorant anonymous posts.
Mod me down again, anarchists.
The best answer is always ECONOMIC. Stay away from the USA and travel elsewhere. If they notice a huge decline in tourism and the associated revenue they will be forced to rethink TRUMP and his policies.
This has been true for years, is nothing new, and surprised that people don't know that.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
As I said in the part of my post you didn't quote, "[t]his topic is definitely something we need to vigorously discuss." I actually agree with pretty much everything you said.
But that has nothing to do with my original point (clearly missed by reflexive mods) that spewing rhetorical nonsense like Larson is doing is unnecessary and counterproductive to a thoughtful, rational discussion about the subject.
I'm thinking of locking systems that block access when at the border and can only be unlocked when in a civilised country or the USA :) (sorry, couldn't resist)
Not sure if GPS is accurate enough for that though
It is not hard to put your sensitive stuff on a server, delete the apps to access it and/or the accounts to access and carry a clean laptop and phone over a border. Then reinstall apps and add accounts again. Very easy to do. My contacts are synced with webdav. As soon as i delete the account my contacts are gone.
and it worked out fine.
Yep, the USB device (aka gadget) tells the USB host (computer) what kind of device it is. Newer phones equipped with USB OTG have the hardware to work as either end of the connection.
Some chips used in common USB memory sticks can be programmed to act as a keyboard, sending keypresses to the computer when someone plugs in the "flash drive". I built one of those myself, using a usb flash drive with my company's logo on it. If I were to leave that drive laying around the office, one of my co-workers would probably think that because it's one of a batch of drives the company ordered with the company logo on it, it's safe to plug in. They wouldn't know I altered it to work as a keyboard. Currently it's set to press the appropriate keys to rickroll someone, opening a browser to YouTube playing Rick Astley.
Thus the current Trump vendetta on brown people. He is accusing Mexicans of being ''bad hombres" whatever the fuck that means. He is accusing the Muslims of being Terrorists.
So if you're brown, you get fucked by entering or leaving the country. Every time.
If you're white and don't have a non-white sounding name, you're cool, even if you are armed to the teeth.
See this is the problem. You could theoretically force everyone to have their phone slurped when they cross the border, but unless someone is actually looking for something, no good will come of it. If you want to be safe, leave your smartphone at home, remove the sim card from it and put it in a burner phone, set the PIN lock and when they want to slurp the phone, there will be nothing to slurp off it. At worst your contacts list and last 50 sms messages if you don't lock PIN lock the sim card. The real risk is that if you're an active provocateur of violence, that will be a reason to deny you entry. Anything else (from being a drug peddler to a prostitute) is not something that can be proved at the border but might warrant searching your luggage for evidence of wrongdoing.
The best way to avoid looking like you're guilty of something is to not use the native apps that people use for doing evil shit. So delete those facebook, twitter, gmail, apps from your device, use the web browser for that, wipe the cache, cookies and saved credentials off the device when you are 5 miles from the border, and nothing will happen to you. If they want to know your facebook or twitter login, use one you don't actively use, or play dumb ("my what?"). If there is no app on the device, then there reason to suspect you use that social media service. I don't use facebook, I don't like facebook, if they want to look at my facebook there will be nothing but cat and baby pictures on it. I don't even tag people in photos.
All you do is sit on your goddamn fat motherfucking asses all day.
Meanwhile you are all getting royally fucked over by your military police, executive branches, legislators, and your courts.
Day in and day out they wage total war against you.
Rob you of your rights, beat you down, spying, surveill, datamine, facial, tax, control, and fuck you.
And all you do is sit on your fuckin arses.
YOU, YOU Americans are now the leading reason for SHIT IN THE WORLD, exporting your worthless theories, and murdering innocents.
WAKE THE FUCK UP.
RISE THE FUCK UP.
And take back your shit from your pussy ass government.
So what happens when travelers start carrying attack hardware & software that bites back?
The border guard bites back harder. So unless you are fond of cavity searches and border town lockups, I suggest you reconsider your options.
concept of "developed capacity is intent to use it." Yes, using this thought process means that since every woman has a vagina, then she has the intent to become a prostitute
The rest of your post makes sense, but this doesn't. Surely there is a distinction between consciously developing a capacity (e.g., learning to pole dance as the intent to become a stripper) and unconsciously developing a capacity (e.g., growing a vagina as a function of your DNA).
Canada's customs agents also take away phones and read data off of them.
We should kickstart some crowd funding to create a mod for android that recognizes a Quicksilver password. Once the quicksilver password is entered, the phone would unlock, but log in you with a pre selected account or mode. Everything there would be very innocuous, but enough stuff to make it appear normal. We might get some crowd sourced "safe browsing history" updated daily and very innocuous email traffic and very bland but seemingly very normal WhatsApp and SMS traffic with very recent date stamps. Some AI generated Mad-Libs like combinatorial content generator.
There should be a very special Slowsilver password that would turn off Quicksilver return the phone to normal mode.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
Wipe phone
Re-use cloud
Done
The US Constitution is the entirety of the legal basis for the very existence of the American federal government. Is it binding upon all American government officials, agents, and employees at all times and all places. There is no provision in the constitution for the suspension of the bill of rights at the border, and the fact that our rights are routinely violated when entering the country is because our courts are derelict in their duty to enforce the constitution.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Just keep an old phone for travel. Don't install many apps, don't connect it to your accounts. Also, wipe the laptop clean before leaving.
Take old phone, factory reset it. go through customs, find free wifi. reload phone....
The shit is getting easier and easier.
The next step is they'll hold you up, require your google or dropbox password...
We live in interesting times. until the "world" catches up to tech. Don't know which way things are going... 1984? Johnny Mnemonic? Blade Runner?
Someone should build a phone which blows up if someone tries to tamper with it.
Wait Samsung already built one.
Someone should just build a case for phones which makes them look like a Note 7.
No CBP agent will try to read it.
**Life is too short to be serious**
which is absurd on it's face.
which is absurd on it is face
So have a phone. A new phone with a new account from back in your own nation thats account ready for your destination.
It powers on, has a list of apps. It can be called. So any security questions about devices will fit in with what is expected of most people in 2017.
A laptop should be new. Only have productivity apps.
A camera should have a new card/s in it. Do not use the card. Any images on it will be looked at. Any camera deleted images can and will be recovered.
For any paperwork use your work or normal home email. If asked to produce any account passwords do so.
Lying is the most easy way not to enter a nation when asked.
Talk to your boss, company security if you have a work phone. That you will have to show it and any data on it. Any accounts, data on that phone might be copied, inspected. Buy a new phone for the trip.
Expect any social media accounts to be on file when questioned. Expect questions about any aspect of social media use going back years.
If a user was happy to support political movements, leaders, showed support for wars, a cult, faith or other issues in their own nation expect most nations to have that found that information and have questions ready.
Most nations do not have to let a person in. Their entry points are created to be a void of most legal protections. If every person wanted court access, a lawyer no bags or devices could be searched. Anyone could enter a nation with anything just by holding up their passport.
So questions can be asked and lying is not going to help. You will be searched and all devices will have any and all data extracted. Any encryption efforts will be discovered. Decryption may not be an option but lying will result in removal.
If your a citizen of that nation, your rights then apply but you have been discovered with something legally interesting.
Courts and other issues happen after questions. Lying is the most easy way to block a person from even entering a nation.
So be ready for a lot of questions, don't have anything on file, or thats been deleted. When asked to give an email password, give it.
If asked about social media, give the password. All your details are on file anyway. The question is asked in the hope that the person will lie and can be removed.
How to avoid all that? Dont use social media outside a work account. Only have email accounts.
Most nations will track down social media by 3 hops. Friends of friends. If any of them have been political interesting in any way, expect a lot of questions.
Telling lies about friends of friends is another easy lie to be caught in.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
I believe I pointed out that one need not be a citizen to have civil rights. A point you seem to be ignoring? I will presume it is unintentional.
you have not lost one single of your rights as spelled out in the Bill of Rights or the US Constitution. Not a single one.
Incorrect. I have lost many rights. The right to be secure in my person and effects is routinely violated whenever a law enforcement officer searches my car (happens about 5 times a year - I live near a prison and they sometimes search after an escape when they have absolutely no probable cause to suspect that I am transporting an escapee). I have my right to remain silent violated when a court orders that I unlock my phone, or to decrypt my files. I have my right to representation violated by voter ID laws that are unconstitutional but not struck down to "avoid voter confusion." I have my right to free speech violated every time I keep my mouth shut for fear of angering government and "drawing notice" - and that happens, I've seen it from both sides.. You have your rights violated every single time you are stopped and the police demand "license, registration, and proof of insurance" because now you are being forced to prove you did not commit a crime, rather than the government having to prove you did.
These may seem like small potatoes to you, and if so, I will remind you that there is no such thing as "being a little bit pregnant." Either you have rights, or you don't.
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
I apologize if I seem to have ignored that point. I will say that there might - possibly - be a slippery slope there. As an example, every totalitarian feels that a free and responsible press is desirable - as long as they get to define what is "responsible", and can remove the "free" from those that are "irresponsible".
But your point is well taken: Hyperbole, hysteria, and factually free discussion is antithetical to reaching conclusions and solutions that are acceptable to the majority while being consistent with freedom.
Which brings me to the next of my worries, the tyranny of the majority. I know that it is impossible, but my desire is a system of government where, if one wished, one could simply turn their back on the government and everyone else and just not be bothered. Impossible, I know, but I wish it were not.
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
Americans have never understood that their treasured "Bill of Rights" actually limits their rights by its very existence.
Because I do.
Encrypt the whole thing... then encrypt documents with a secondary form of encryption on the phone... Fill the documents with F-U gubment. Laugh when they say they need to take it at the border and refuse to give them the unlock codes. They'll take your phone and waste time to decrypt documents that simply tell them where to shove it. Hehehehehehe
Digital is, by definition, imperfect. Analog is the way to go.
That's why I don't travel to the US on business (or Canada, or any other country that applies those rules without reasonable evidence to do so). Have no problem doing business with companies from such countries, but representatives have to come to us and not the other way around.
As for leisure, have no problem travelling to those countries... just wont take my phone (or laptop) with me. I'll buy one on arrival if I really need (old school chap, still very fond of having an agenda with contacts and business cards).
Ever since it was leaked about the US government espionage on EU companies and officials (and all the reports that we now have regularly as a consequence) we've been a bit more wary of state sponsored corporate espionage (sure, you can argue that it was for national security reasons, and could even pass as credible in case of the EU officials - sure, why not? I'll bite - but companies? Must be kidding, someone gained something along the way on that one... not to mention trying to control politicians and european industry to bend their way).
I can't believe we got this far. What are you guys doing to your country? Leaving your cellphone home used to be a consideration when visiting places like North Korea.
Not really, you must have failed civics class. The Bill of Rights enumerates the most essential liberties that hadn't already been enshrined in the constitution. These are things that needed to be specifically protected.
Nothing about those rights says that you can't have other rights or that the government has to search your person, papers and effects just because the 4th amendment doesn't apply to the situation. It just means that the government can search them.
If you travel internationally, bring a second phone, but continue using your primary. On the plane swap in your normal SM. If they even ask to see your phone (which they won't because honestly they don't care) give them the phone that has nothing on it. If they find it odd there's nothing on it say you brought it just to have a phone with you for international use but you didn't end up using it.
Look, I'm sorry but this whole thread is about the gestapo like police force you've allowed, through fear, to be setup at your borders. Just take a step back and look at what you're allowing to happen here, confiscation of property, heavy handed searches, intimidation and for what? To stop the terrorists that in their wildest dreams think that this is the way to get into the US? Through an airport? Wake the fuck up. It's just crazy and I suspect, has very little to do with terrorism.
The whole thing, their excuse for it, your willingness to put up with it, it's all nuts! Organize yourselves America, start calling your "representatives", you can get millions in the street for any number of causes, how about you get a couple of million people in the street and call for an end to this farce? Remember that your representative works for you, not the other way around.
The attempt to harm government equipment is stupid on many levels, but right out of the gate it's stupid because the odds are extremely low of your phone even being looked at. I've never had the border agents even ask to see my computer, much less my phone. The odds are very slim they ever will so you'd be going to a lot of trouble just for nothing to happen.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Yes, by all means. The rest of the world isn't a fascist police state.
Oh and it's been fucked up like this for the last 16 years, it's nice you dumbasses finally got a president you so deserve that is making you realise what a shit hole you've turned your nation into.
I forget where, but it's been said "If you don't give weight to your principals, then the first wind will carry them off." And I absolutely disagree that constitutional protections "don't apply" to the boarder.
Someone's still in high school but doesn't live at home anymore. How else could a boarder have principals.
It's to painful to actually list how free we aren't. Reading this thread reminds me of how pointing out facts will get a STFU pinko commie Muslim , love it or leave it....
It's getting to be a matter of real principal, why do I carry a device like this? Why do I even get online for anything? Velvet handcuffs. Not participating is the only real way to change things.
Will this become a crime as well?
No I don't have a cell phone, no I don't have social media...
No private individual should carry around a phone that crammed with highly sensitive personal information that having to open it for border security is that big a problem. This doesn't apply in Bikkanavar's case because it was his work phone, secured by NASA. Keep on your own phone nothing but the data you need to support the mobile functions you actually use.
Even if you travel without setting up an international roaming plan, your smartphone is good at doing two things: allowing you to stay in communication by Skype and email wherever here is WiFi, and being your backup camera that in event of loss or problems with your Big Camera might be your only way of capturing the priceless views you will never pass by again. I once left for a five-week trip through several European countries thinking that I had arranged for international roaming with my carrier. Although I got No Service wherever I went due to a problem with the SIM, the Skype capability kept me in touch.
"They hate us for our freedoms" - that has been nonsensical for hundreds of years. The underground rail road always ran and still do, From the USA To Canada. Lady Liberty turned her back on New York ages ago.
Hey, you already self-describe as a slave. So no real surprise that you have no interest in freedom for yourself and others.
You are getting mixed up.
It's not hate of America, it's hate of the TSA.
I'd rather not have my balls squeezed in public thank you.
So what you're saying is: "Fuck you, prole, that's why!"
Keep in mind the LEO community of every stripe (pastry?) came out overwhelmingly for Trump. Hell, the goons in US Customs and Border Protection (CPB) were *actively* ignoring Federal judge court orders banning Bannon's XO.
Plenty of US Blue Shirts champing at the bit to be Il Trumpe's brown shirts. Psychotic high school bullies don't change: they just become cops.
The US entrance controls are obvious -- immigration and customs officers you must satisfy. Unlike some countries (AU), there are no obvious exit controls. But the US has always exerted jurisdiction over _exports_ so CBP officers can and do stop people leaving the US to inspect for prohibited exports. Just about any comp/phone might be seized because it contains crypto (5A002, 5A992 unless you have the resources to press the Mass Market exemption).
Even if CBP are being less @$$hole-ish (seriously, a job requirement), they can certainly claim electronics could be carrying data (mostly instructions) that are prohibited export.
Unfortunately, at the border, all searches are considered reasonable.
One of the strongest arguments against adding the Bill of Rights to the Constitution was that by calling out specific rights people would be justified in treating those rights differently than ones that didn't make the list. The whole point of the 9th amendment was to try to alleviate those concerns.
Of course, when government power was being greatly expanded to allow New Deal legislation, the Supreme Court decided that law that violated different rights deserved different levels of scrutiny - and guess which rights ended up triggering 'strict scrutiny' in Footnote Four?
So yes, it's a perfectly valid interpretation of legal history to say that the net effect of the Bill of Rights was to reduced the overall scope of rights held by Americans.
The last time I boarded an international flight, I had my old trusty Nokia 3310 in my pocket. Hilarity ensued.
The Nokia 515 is just as good at making calls but that is all it does. Nokia are about the rerelease the 3310. You do not need to have any data on it but you do want to be able to call people and be called by people so you get a phone number. The cheap laptop can be wiped and you can store all your important data remotely so that you can access it after you arrive. Sit in a decent cafe and download all the date you need via your VPN while relaxing over a latte or in your hotel.
I love stacking my barbecues in the shed at the end of summer - you can't beat a bit of grill on grill action.
The fouth amendment does not apply to non-US citizens. Which is why I've refused to travel to the states for over a decade and encourage everyone to do the same. You can have your "freedom", I'll go spend my money elsewhere.
Which is absolutely ridiculous. The ONLY legitimate purpose of a search at the border should be to determine if the individual has proper documentation and is not an immediate threat.
Digging through personal effects and data is nothing more than a "fishing expedition" in hopes of finding some reason to confiscate.
Funny, I've always thought that "they hate us for our freedoms" was a joke, and understood as such by everyone. Are you telling me people seriously mean it when they say that? And that other people believe it? Because I always thought they hate you for destroying their countries and ruining their lives, and not so much about what you do when you are at home...
How are those Canadian beaches? Disney? Rocket sites? The Canadian Rockies ARE amazing. Definitely worth the visit. Lots of nice things to do and see in Canada, just it isn't the USA.
Never felt that way entering or leaving the USA, but I've never been singled out for extra checks. I will be leaving my normal smartphone behind and I've been traveling with a chromebook (only using the guest account) for years.
China, Israel, South Korea, come to mind as places where I've felt violated by border controls.
Leaving the Czech Republic was pretty nasty too - felt sexually assaulted after the double-groping before getting on to the plane. They didn't look at any electronics, beyond the normal x-ray.
Back in the 1990s, US immigration was in the Vancouver airport. I remember being hassled there returning from a ski trip.
Places I didn't feel violated after 2001 .... Spain, South Africa, Nepal, Singapore, Japan, Argentina, Costa Rica, Turkey, France, Italy, UK, Canada. Many of those places, I don't recall being stopped at all, which can't be the case, since the passport had to be stamped.
Twelve Current and Former TSA and Airport Employees Indicted for Smuggling Approximately 20 Tons of Cocaine
Oh, it seems I've misinterpreted the law once again. Silly me! I read the white paint on the barn wall as "It is illegal to import cocaine", but somehow I never noticed the next line, "unless you are a TSA agent." I wonder why the handwriting is different... looks like a pig wrote it.
Might makes right irrelevant.
I've made scores of international trips in my life, for business and pleasure, and on only one occasion did the border guards demand access to my laptop. That was at Pyongyang International Airport in North Korea, in August of 2015. And at least the search was conducted in full view of myself -- they even asked me to do a lot of it myself, since they were completely unfamiliar with KDE and couldn't type on my Dvorak keyboard. It turns out all they were looking for were South Korean movies (which they didn't want me distributing to the locals), and as soon as it became obvious that I had none, they called off the search.
Last time I had to land in the US I got fingerprinted and photographed, just to change from international flight to an American airline flight which was not even bound to an US airport. And this was more than a decade ago. Since then I avoid any landing in US territory and any airline with flights using American Airlines as connection flight. I still remember the face of the customs officer. He looked to be so proud of protecting his country borders... from passengers in transit to an US outbound flight! That was a waste of resources and a way to pishing off people perception of US Curiously now I fly mostly in non American airplanes, but that is unintentional.
giving airtime to over-the-top nonsense like this isn't the way to do it.
Yes, and no.
The US military (which includes everything from SEAL Team 6 down to your local police officer it seems now) has a concept of "developed capacity is intent to use it." Yes, using this thought process means that since every woman has a vagina, then she has the intent to become a prostitute, which is absurd on it's face.
If God hadn't intended for women to be prostitutes, he'd have made them hardier and uglier.
Nothing is absurd enough not to work as a basis for zealotry. Witch hunts focused mostly on women exactly because their vagina made them susceptible to be a vessel for evil.
Each time I visit the US I come back with a new phone... or laptop... or tablet.
>>Should International Travelers Leave Their Phones At Home?
Nope. They should just never travel to USA any more.
aaaaaaa
I agree with this completely. As a Finn I've often been pondering recently what I'd do if the time comes to visit the US for business reasons or otherwise and this idea of just getting brand new device to bring along has been in my thoughts. However, in the context of your quote it has one massive setback: it's yielding to the system by saying 'fine, I agree that you can search everything I have so I bought a device with nothing on it'. It's not going to help the situation in the long term.
In fact I can see this kind of behavior being used to tighten the screws of surveillance even more: "Sir, we have noticed that you are on Facebook/Gmail/twitter but you're not logged into any of those on your device, please provide the passwords so we can verify you're not trying to hide any illegal activities'. That is, having a 'fresh' wiped device could itself be in the future seen as cause for 'reasonable suspicion', only making the problem worse.
In so far as I can see, the only way is not to try to go around the surveillance by means of technical solutions, but to oppose it in courts en masse. It's a hard route to take, but failing to stand up for your constitutional rights will, in the light of history, only lead to them being slowly chiselled away.
"It is the business of the future to be dangerous" -Alfred North Whitehead
anyone within 100 miles of the border is in the Border Security Zone where the US Constitution doesn't apply. Yeah, they simply made this treason up.
About 2/3 of US Citizens live in this area and even more pass through it.
They are an organized group of people that are enemies of the US Constitution.
That's the definition of Treason - the only crime specifically described in the US Constitution.
They are the Domestic Enemies of the US Constitution that the President and Armed Forces take an oath to oppose.
The real enemies of Freedom are not stone age Captagon addicts on the other side of the planet but rather the army of would be dictators right here at home.
Some straightforward and simple to back up all the personal and private data into a file that can be offloaded, factory reset the phone, walk through with the clean phone, and "unpack" it on the other side.
You put in one code for your phone, you put in another code to get some default boring ass phone image with banal information.
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The Constitution applies to the U.S. government and to the citizens of the united states. It does not include geographic limitations of any kind. All of this making borders a Constitution free zone is completely unConstitutional. I don't care if the ground I am standing on is legally considered to be the Greater 2nd Empire of Mars, I am still a U.S. Citizen and the border guard is still a representative of the U.S. government. The Constitution applies. Obviously it isn't being respected, but it certainly applies.
For the time being, I will not try to submit papers to US-based conferences, as a separate travel laptop for the US and a separate phone is (a) expensive and (b) I need the data on the phone. Shall I memorize all the contacts? Certainly not. As most international conferences are not every year in the US, I can work around this.
Anything you dont want fucked with
Just do a backup and reset your phone to factory default.
Travel to the US.
In the hotel start the restore and sleep your jet-lag off.
No other country pulls this nonsense.
US Jackboot: "May I see your smart-phone please."
Me: "I don't have one with me."
US Jackboot: "Excuse me? Why do you not have a smart-phone?"
Me: I didn't want the hassle of having it possibly examined."
US Jackboot: "Okay, please step over here so we can get further information about you."
Me: Fuck.
The border isn't in the USA, so your prized constitution doesn't apply there.
No, what the AVERAGE people of EVERY country should do is say "We think ALL countries "rulers" even ours - suck big green donkey dicks, and we will interact with each other and IGNORE the FUCK out of every countries rulers".
I've wondered what I could do if I had the resources, to play games with American border security. How about a custom cellphone using trinary logic and a custom OS that looks like android. That could keep them spinning for weeks.
Take note nowhere does the phrase "Within the USA" appear in that quote. The Constitution of the USA defines the powers of the US Government and its agents, it doesn't grant rights. Therefore it should apply world wide, not just "inside the USA", meaning the border zones should still be protected.
..on your phone or portable computer, don't take it anywhere where it could be lost, stolen or intercepted by police
Buy another one for travel that has zero sensitive stuff on it
Yes, some people say and believe that with absolute seriousness.
I agree with what YOU thought. Americans interfering with other countries is why other countries hate them.
While politically, Australia is very buddy-buddy with the US. Most Australians dislike the US for the same reason: too much US influence in Australia.
The whole thing reminds me of the US approach to bullying in schools AKA bullies are never punished.
As a legal permanent resident who was technically "out of status" for a little while while I wanted for USCIS to process my papers, I read the constitution to try and work out whether I currently had any rights.
I was unable to determine it, and assumed I had none.
"Further, nothing in the constitution or the bill of rights denies civil rights [...] to non-citizens,"
It doesn't GRANT them either.
As a legal permanent resident, I still have no idea whether I actually have any rights, and I still work under the assumption that I have none: if I see a police car, I make a turn.
fuck, typo: "waited", not "wanted"
Mod parent UP!
The Stasi. Crucified, dead and buried. On the third decade, it rose again according to the files. And ascended into the U.S.A. and sitteth to the ultra-right of its origin. And it shall come again with glory to judge both the living and the dead.
Yes, that's blasphemous. So stop it.
Encrypt the hard drive of your computer and ship it separate from your flight. Be sure to box it for shipment before you take it to where you're shipping it from, and tell them it's anything other than a computer. Leave your smartphone at home, and either take a burner phone with you, or buy the cheapest burner phone you can when you arrive at your destination, with the intention of destroying it utterly and discarding it before you depart to go back home. If you get asked about any 'social media' accounts you have, tell them in no uncertain terms that you don't use so-called 'social media', and then launch into an unasked-for diatribe on how so-called 'social media' is anything but, is making people LESS social, is responsible for so many social problems we're having in the world, is destroying the planet, etc etc etc, until their eyes glaze over and they wave you through the checkpoint just to get you to shut up. They can't search what you don't have, and they can't poke their noses into something they don't believe you have in the first place. Problems solved! Was that so difficult?
Exactly. The Fourth Amendment recognizes the right of persons to be secure in their papers, personal effects etc. except when it's reasonable to search them - i.e. you have a justifiable reason to suspect them of wrongdoing.
Merely crossing from one country into another isn't itself a reason to suspect anyone of anything.
backing up your phone's data encrypted to a cloud-based location and then wiping your phone before you travel? Since there's nothing on the phone, happily comply with any unlock order. After you're past customs, rewipe your phone (in case the customs guys "accidentally" infected it), and then download your data from the cloud.
Yes, it's a PITA. If you really want to resist, after wiping your phone, fill it with with LOLCATS photos and videos. If they take an image of your data, they get to waste several GiB of space (if we all did that, they'd feel it).
"[...]Trump adopted a highly unusual defence, known as 'force majeure'. He claimed that the 2008 economic crisis was a 'once-in-a-century credit tsunami', an act of God that was equivalent to an earthquake.
Since it couldn't have been anticipated, and it wasn't his fault, he wasn't obliged to pay Deutsche anything. It wouldn't get the $40m or the outstanding $330m, his writ said.
He went further. Trump claimed Deutsche Bank had actually helped cause the crunch. Therefore it owed him. Trump demanded $3bn from Deutsche in compensation."
Some skills.
I hope I didn't brain my damage.
How about "DON'T PUT IMPORTANT SHIT ON YOUR PHONE", seriously phones are the most easily stolen devices and they all have a myriad of hacks around them, why would anyone store anything critical on them. I work in IT and I travel internationally all the time, if airport security want access to my phone or laptop they are welcome too it, anything critical to me is stored separately on an encrypted drive
You think Trump hates your freedom because you ruined his life? I don't get it...
Check out the environmental variable called PATH. It's this new thing added to computers in 1977 so you don't need to know the location of each executable.
A cheap Android phone bought on EBay. Have exactly NO data on it, but lock it with a long password. If they try to bully you into giving up the password, let the fucking pigs confiscate it.
Why? For $10 or $20, you can waste a lot of their time -- let them crack the encryption to yield exactly zilch. The best way to fight Trumpian authoritarianism is to gum up the system and overload the pigs who are "just doing their jobs" with unnecessary, wasteful work.
1. Buy a viruses filled client laptop
2. remove the password
3. Let the TSA have fun
4. ????
5. Newsworthy Article
I think the US government, and through them the US population, has explained themselves quite clear:
"Actually we don't really want you here, and if you really think of visiting us, think again."
"Trump!!", the new Godwin.
Automation.
The process would require you to plug your phone into a USB connector which then sucks it empty.
"Trump!!", the new Godwin.
Nicely said!
"Trump!!", the new Godwin.
Even then, some women learn pole dancing only to please (arouse for personal use?) their husband.
"Trump!!", the new Godwin.
Some people (with varying degrees of success) try to live a life obeying only the 'law of the land'.
"Trump!!", the new Godwin.
justified rage :)
"Trump!!", the new Godwin.
How about: Never go to the USA until 'they the people' have cleaned up the acts of their government?
"Trump!!", the new Godwin.
How about 'worst'?
"Trump!!", the new Godwin.
You mean CIA perspective? They have funded the pro-Europe movements from the start in order to get one single institution to influence, instead of a multitude of separate countries.
"Trump!!", the new Godwin.
Funny, I've always thought that "they hate us for our freedoms" was a joke, and understood as such by everyone.
No. Many do hate Americans for their freedoms.
Many people believe that an individual should not have the freedom to speak out; especially against the government.
Many people think that an individual should not be free to practice whatever religion they want (Islam!).
Many people think that the state is the center of existence, not the individual.
Many people want strong and dominating government that tell people what they should be doing, unlike America where you can do whatever you want, including sitting on your ass doing nothing.
"Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
Your supposition doesn't really explain vitriol where countries the US has not affected contain people who go beyond intellectual critique. A couple of years back I visited a forum for Ethiopian concerns. The people on the forum had a thread where the opinion was unanimous that the US had committed and was continuing to commit a genocide against the Ethiopian people. I pointed out that the Ethiopian population had more than doubled since the late 1980's.. Hardly a successful genocide. They went silent. The most we have done to Ethiopia is lend aid. The most we haven't done for Ethiopia is defend them against the Egyptians so they can dam the Nile and irrigate their very special plateau. Neither is destroying lives and ruining their country. I don't think the Ethiopians hate our freedoms. I think like many they have a huge inferiority complex and they rationalize the current situation by blaming a prosperous country for their woes.
The Ottoman Empire was a dominant force in the world. It appears that many former territories of that empire have not progressed intellectually any more than they have industrially. It is a path of least resistance emotionally to conclude that the former dominance is the proper state of affairs and the current state is the fault of the current dominant power. Throw in a religious difference and there you have it.
The US has used a big stick at times but destroying countries and ruining lives? Iraq most certainly. Can't think of any others. That's not to say we haven't had an effect. It's just that any country we influenced that is ruined was already ruined. Some we ruined have now sprung back under US influence to much better than their former state. I abhor some aspects of our foreign policy but your accusations are far fetched and unsupportable. They are more like the rationalizations of those who ask why they are not better off and proper intellectual investigation of the question yields only uncomfortable truths.
Of course, you changed the hypothetical from the one I responded to: "pretty soon everyone will have to unlock their phone and hand it over to a customs agent while they're getting their passport swiped."
But in any event, it takes a fair amount of time to slurp tens of GB over a USB interface. Either your line starts to move at that rate, or you have banks of ports that you herd people up to. Then, once they're unsupervised, you have to trust them to plug in the right device and not a decoy (and to plug in all their devices if they have more than one), trust they're not running modded firmware that hides certain folders/data from the USB interface, and so on.
If something this draconian ever happens, you can come right back here and rub my face in it, and I'll cheerfully admit I was wrong (and will help lead the charge on a workaround). That's a completely safe offer on my part, because it won't happen.
#fakenews
How about you simply run your phone out of charge and put it in your checked in baggage? Are they going to sit around waiting for it to get to minimum charge after fishing it out?
And like doing business with the U.S. who will destabalize your government can be avoided or considered a cost of interacting with the U.S.... Just don't go to the U.S.
That's one of the reasons I'm going to China this year's vacation, instead of the US.
That's right Americans, your country is currently worst than China when it comes to freedom. Well, technically not your country, your 100 miles borders.
Think about that.
If my Nokia 6110 still works. That and a prepaid SIM should be ok.
I have the US on my no-fly list since a number of years.
Unfortunately.
The times in the past when I have visited the US, I found it to be a great place, with great people. I definitely wanted to visit again, and bring the rest of my family with me. Sadly, given the circumstances of late, that is simply not going to happen.
I love the country. I love the people. I dislike the policies. The current administration, by the way, is on an entirely new level. I did not think it could get worse, but it sure did, and then some.
The US has my sympathy, but my money goes elsewhere.
Cue the haters...
> We have been told over and over again that "They hate us for our freedoms".
Coming to think of it...it's true!
> If God hadn't intended for women to be prostitutes, he'd have made them hardier and uglier.
Nothing wrong with prostitutes. They provide a pretty necessary service to the community and I respect them.
Unlike TSA goons.
I thought I countered your objection about the manpower.
Regarding the time it takes you may be right, for now.
"Trump!!", the new Godwin.
And if you bring a computer, shadow encrypt the system so that if you have to decrypt it, you have a dummy partition that boots with nothing other than an OS. Remember the drones at the entry point have the mentality of a bug... Even the smallest bit of security will completely stump them...
I've always seen "hate us for our freedoms" to be a "true patriot" line: It's something that the authoritarians and/or warmongers bring out for the dimwitted masses to excuse whatever bullshit our government is trying to do at the moment. Everyone with critical thinking skills knows differently.
Sadly, it seems that latter group comprises only a simple majority of American voters, not a significant one.
* will get a STFU pinko commie Muslim , love it or leave it....*
I like to point out to those that say "America, love it or leave it!" is like saying "My mother; drunk or sober!".
When someone you love commits an error, one generally, out of love, points out the error. It is not a statement of hate to say "Hey, that's wrong", it can be the greatest expression of love. This is what confuses some, as they use the attempt to discuss a possible error or injustice not to correct that error or injustice, but as a club to stifle and shut down discussion. Because if one thinks something is wrong and says so, obviously they do it out of hate and a desire to destroy. That's a pretty sicko attitude I think.
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
You are still protected by the 5th amendment at the border. You are under no legal obligation to divulge your password. The US Supreme Court has ruled on this. That's why it's a bad idea to use a fingerprint to open your phone. The US Supreme Court said that the border patrol has the legal right to force you to open your phone with your fingerprint.
Should leave themselves at HOME.
I would not recommend coming to the United States in our current political climate. It could be extremely dangerous for them.
I'm not here to spew hate at people from other countries...I'm saying that there are elements in this country right now who would not hesitate to injure or kill them in the name of "Making America Great".