The Videogame Industry Is Fighting 'Right To Repair' Laws (vice.com)

definitions? by supernova87a · 2017-02-25 16:39 · Score: 4, Interesting

ok, so you're going to require manufacturers to make repair manuals and parts available to the general public. What's to stop them from writing in the manual, "purchase and install Comprehensive Assembly #012934" and selling that part which is basically a replacement for the entire unit? Who's to contradict them if they say that the unit is not serviceable?

Re:definitions? by Goldsmith · 2017-02-25 16:59 · Score: 5, Interesting

It's interesting to read the background on this. It's really about warranties.
Federal law is that a company can't insist that you use a particular vendor for repair or servicing to maintain a warranty. Now, that's unusual to think about because that's not what we're used to seeing in reality.
The reality is that if opening or servicing the electronics is so convoluted and difficult that damage is nearly certain when anyone without training opens it, then the warranty is voided by that damage. The training materials and tooling that are used by companies to train their own people in how to properly repair the electronics without damage would be made available to consumers in "right to repair" legislation.
If a company decides to make something that cannot be repaired... well, ok. It may be that laws like this simply push manufacturers to shut down their internal repair groups and stop supporting any warranty or repair at all.
Re:definitions? by wierd_w · 2017-02-25 17:23 · Score: 5, Insightful

Much of that "difficulty" is artificially introduced by the console developer, to discourage experimentation and reverse engineering attempts, in order to keep the console "secure."
EG, things like the E-Fuses in the 360 preventing the flashing of older firmwares over the top of newer ones, etc.
They ONLY reason they exist, *IS TO BRICK CONSOLES*, when people attempt to gain control of the console.
Re:definitions? by Darinbob · 2017-02-25 17:44 · Score: 3, Interesting

No, they still want to sell their devices. So what if some people repair their own? Are they going to shut down the entire product line for a few malcontents? Have an unrepairable by any means product will drive most people away.
Re:definitions? by lucm · 2017-02-25 17:50 · Score: 4, Informative

What's to stop them from writing in the manual, "purchase and install Comprehensive Assembly #012934" and selling that part which is basically a replacement for the entire unit?
What you're describing is using a RaW (Rules as Written) legal strategy, and in the context of this type of legislation, this is usually not a winning approach because it clearly contradict the intent of the law. A RaW approach is better suited to administrative matters, such as a DMV dispute.

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Re:definitions? by guises · 2017-02-25 19:03 · Score: 1

What's to stop them from writing in the manual, "purchase and install Comprehensive Assembly #012934" and selling that part which is basically a replacement for the entire unit?
Well, presumably the law stops them. I'm sure that the actual text of the law isn't a single sentence, "We hereby require manufacturers to make repair manuals and parts available to the general public." This is why these laws get into hundreds of pages, and sometimes set up regulatory bodies to manage them - to try and cover all of those sorts of loopholes and crafty ways which companies employ to try and wriggle around them. They're not always successful, but that's what it takes to have any chance of making it work.
Re:definitions? by dbIII · 2017-02-25 19:24 · Score: 4, Insightful

What's happened for a very long time is third party manuals. My Grandmother's copy of "Book of The Ford" was a guide to repairing the Model T and was not written by the Ford Motor Company. That was in the early 1920s and was nowhere near the first edition. Ford had their own manuals but they were not that only ones, and apart from the DCMA there has been little to stop third party manuals since.
So IMHO there's nothing wrong with them saying "purchase and install Comprehensive Assembly #012934" so long as third parties are allowed to publish alternative manuals and supply alternative parts.
Re:definitions? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-02-25 21:05 · Score: 4, Informative

Do you still have the book? If yes and it can't be found online, then scan it (or if you don't want the manual anymore then i guess you can send it) and contribute to http://www.oldcarmanualproject.com/
Re:definitions? by dbIII · 2017-02-25 21:25 · Score: 2

Another relative ended up with it but it was not rare by all accounts so is probably scanned and online already. I actually got to apply some stuff about the epicyclic gears and brake bands at University where the mechanical engineering department had a gearbox from a model-t to use in second year practical classes.

I think the book was this one (published 1920, going now for ten Bristish pounds):
https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=7791062620&searchurl=tn%3Dthe%2Bbook%2Bof%2Bthe%2Bford%26sortby%3D17%26an%3Dr%2Bt%2Bnicholson
Re: definitions? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-02-25 21:43 · Score: 1

If that is so, why prevent repair? Johnny repairs his unit cheaply, then he buys more real product in the years to come. Too expensive, Johnny quits the platform.
Re: definitions? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-02-25 21:54 · Score: 5, Informative

You're thinking direct computer hardware. Nebraska is thinking tractors and farm equipment. Locking farmers into long term hugely expensive repair contracts on absolutely critical pieces of equipment has become the norm for many "tractor" companies. When one piece of equipment costs millions and you need to spend thousands or more to recalibrate after some common mishap or loose your harvest then it's not so trivial.
Re:definitions? by Opportunist · 2017-02-25 23:59 · Score: 1

The problem they have with it is that people would repair the fault that their console only does what its manufacturer wants.

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Re:definitions? by elrous0 · 2017-02-26 00:32 · Score: 2

LOL, it apparently even featured ads for third-party Model T part manufacturers as well:
https://www.google.com/search?...:

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Re:definitions? by msauve · 2017-02-26 01:06 · Score: 5, Informative

"Federal law is that a company can't insist that you use a particular vendor for repair or servicing to maintain a warranty. "

Federal law says no such thing. You're presumably referencing the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, which prohibits

conditio[ing] his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumer's using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty)
If warranty work is provided free (i.e. parts and labor warranty), there's no issue. In fact, the Act refers to the use of authorized agents:

Nothing in this chapter shall be construed to prevent any warrantor from designating representatives to perform duties under the written or implied warranty...
No, a car manufacturer can't require you to get oil changes from their dealer, unless they provide those changes free as part of the warranty. But if a belt breaks, they can require you get it repaired at a dealer if you want warranty coverage, since the warranty pays for both parts and labor.

You're probably also under the false impression that a warrantor has to somehow "prove" a user modification caused an otherwise warranted issue in order to deny coverage. Nope - if they want to say your engine warranty is voided if you hang fuzzy dice on the mirror, they can. They just have to state so clearly.

Read the Act, it's short and not a hard read.

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Re: definitions? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · 2017-02-26 02:42 · Score: 2

I think she looks like a prototype, not a stereotype.

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Ezekiel 23:20
Re:definitions? by drinkypoo · 2017-02-26 03:34 · Score: 1

You're probably also under the false impression that a warrantor has to somehow "prove" a user modification caused an otherwise warranted issue in order to deny coverage. Nope - if they want to say your engine warranty is voided if you hang fuzzy dice on the mirror, they can. They just have to state so clearly.
Right, if you want protection under the act, you'll have to bring a lawsuit. It's not automatic, since district attorneys are useless fucks 99% of the time, chasing office and not justice.

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Re:definitions? by drinkypoo · 2017-02-26 03:38 · Score: 2

What's happened for a very long time is third party manuals. My Grandmother's copy of "Book of The Ford" was a guide to repairing the Model T and was not written by the Ford Motor Company. That was in the early 1920s and was nowhere near the first edition.
Back then, it was reasonable to make repairs to a vehicle with nothing but basic mechanical knowledge. Today, it isn't. You need torque specs (which aren't just based on bolt sizes no matter how much people want that to be true) and the codes to instruct the computers as to what to do. Those codes are in the official documentation most of the time, for recoding the PCM and such. The only way they get into the Haynes or Chilton's (etc.) is if someone gets them out of the official book. Those codes are facts, and you can't copyright a fact, so it's legal to do so in just the same way that it's legal to OCR the phone book, re-layout the numbers, and print your own. But if the manufacturer weren't forced to publish them then we would be at the mercy of dealers for that information. If the manufacturer then stopped giving them to the dealers, and ran all that information through the software, then getting it would depend on a friendly dealer willing to let someone hook up a protocol sniffer, while actually performing the procedure.
It is not enough to "allow" a third party to create a repair manual.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:definitions? by Darinbob · 2017-02-26 04:49 · Score: 1

True, but I don't think this is a big economic advantage. The companies need to learn that they don't own the machines once they're sold and that they don't need to have total control. Every other physical product on the planet works the same say, once it's sold the customer owns it. The problem is that no one with any real power has been pushing back on this and so it's gone on so long that the console makers are taking this for granted and extending the envelope of control.
Re: definitions? by JustAnotherOldGuy · 2017-02-26 05:09 · Score: 1

I think she looks like a prototype, not a stereotype.
She looks perfectly serviceable to me.

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Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
Re: definitions? by ColdWetDog · 2017-02-26 05:15 · Score: 5, Informative

You're thinking direct computer hardware. Nebraska is thinking tractors and farm equipment. Locking farmers into long term hugely expensive repair contracts on absolutely critical pieces of equipment has become the norm for many "tractor" companies. When one piece of equipment costs millions and you need to spend thousands or more to recalibrate after some common mishap or loose your harvest then it's not so trivial.
This. Why do you think it's starting in Nebraska?
There are quite a few electronic objects out there that having nothing to do with Microsoft or Sony. There is a huge outcry amongst farmers and small industries with the trend towards essentially leasing complex expensive equipment even if you buy it. Farmers have been sued for the temerity of trying to fix their own gear. For John Deere stuff, you could not even buy parts that just plug into the system - they had to be 'installed' by the dealer. When they could get around to it.
IIRC, Deere got some really bad press about that a awhile back and at least lets you plug things back in (that you buy at the Deer store). It is a much larger problem than a dead X-box.
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Re:definitions? by JustAnotherOldGuy · 2017-02-26 05:18 · Score: 1

In the 80's I used to work on scientific gear made by a Japanese company. The Japanese service engineers had service manuals that showed everything correctly, but the service manuals given to customers and to most of the American-born engineers had deliberate mistakes and omissions in the circuit diagrams, presumably to prevent them from being copied and used by third-party service companies.
I and another American-born service engineer found this out the hard way one day while tracing a fault in some gnarly circuit. We were given the "real" manuals shortly after that little faux pas came to light.

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Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
Re:definitions? by Neuronwelder · 2017-02-26 05:26 · Score: 1

What I read is that the are lobbying Against the ease of repairing units. To me this isn't good for landfills or the environment. Why can't they just put a new motherboard in the same case? Or maybe bring back IC sockets that allow for upgrades? It's always money first. :(
Re:definitions? by Neuronwelder · 2017-02-26 05:37 · Score: 1

Careful! They've got endless money and lawyers.. And they are probably nuts.
Re:definitions? by SuricouRaven · 2017-02-26 07:18 · Score: 1

What repair? Manufacturer warranties for electronics usually only mean replacement. Repair just isn't economical any more on all but the most expensive electronics. Even when repair is carried out, it's usually replacing an entire board.
Re:definitions? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-02-26 08:07 · Score: 1

This is not really about repairing a device or warranty...its about whether or not we really own the things we buy or not! If we own our devices, we can do as we wish with them. By making devices not repairable, and not modifiable, these corporations are trying to say we really don't own the devices we bought, but that the corporation still owns it , and has the right to tell you what you can and cannot do with your own property!
Further, by making devices non-repairable, and providing updates that deliberately cause problems, remove features, or by providing security updates for only a year, they can promote planned obsolescence of devices that otherwise still work or could be easily repaired!
It all boils down to money! Follow the money to the real motivations of the corporations that are fighting to keep people from exercising what they have always had...ownership of their purchased goods and the right to repair them!!!
Re: definitions? by Anonymous Coward · 2017-02-26 08:36 · Score: 1

I happen to be in the business of making devices like that, and our new product is going out the door with a locked bootloader, signed firmware upgrades, and per-device certificates that are used to securely identify the device to a licencing server that can be used to enable premium functionality. This is basically our revenue stream, since if we sell this box unlocked, with unencrypted and unsigned firmware, then all that software can be trivially unlocked - which would be fine, were it not for the fact that we try to have a pricing structure that means you can get the thing at a reasonable price, and pay for higher-value features if you want them.
If bills of this nature go through, the whole strategy falls apart, and we're basically fucked. Which, personally, I'd be fine with, since if it also means that Apple can't lock down their devices so hard, then it's a win.
But don't pretend that the whole manufacturing of system ECMs for agricultural and construction equipment will change overnight, and probably not in a good way. If anyone can put any software on an ECM running in a bulldozer, for instance, then nothing will ever pass any of the Machinery Directives in the EU.
Re:definitions? by brantondaveperson · 2017-02-26 08:37 · Score: 1

The mall is full of independent repair shops. They don't seem to be significantly impeded by the restrictions that the manufacturers impose. Often it just amounts to a funny-looking screwdriver, which isn't exactly high security.
Re:definitions? by The+Grim+Reefer · 2017-02-26 10:17 · Score: 3, Interesting

Maybe, maybe not. When is the last time you took repairability into account before making a purchase?
I do as much as possible. But I'm old and still remember when things were built with that in mind. Granted, things like televisions are generally not considered repairable. Usually by the time they malfunction and are out of warranty, it's cheaper to purchase a new one that is usually better anyhow.
I still build all of my desktop computers because I can repair and upgrade them continually. I always consider the ease of working on a car before I purchase one too. Of course I don't do as much of my own mechanical work as I used to, but there is something satisfying about fixing your own car. When I was in my twenties I still had more time than money, and on a continual quest to go faster. So I rebuilt my own engines back then. I don't have all of the tools needed to attempt that on a modern engine. But rebuilding a fuel injection system is a hell of a lot simpler than a Quadrajet carburetor.
Re: definitions? by skr95062 · 2017-02-26 11:50 · Score: 5, Informative

Exactly.
John Deere is using copyright and the DMCA to keep the farmers who spend 150K+ on their tractor or farm equipment from working on their own property.
Or is it really the farmers property? Apparently not according to Deere.
That is why these bills are in farm country, the populous of these states don't care about game consoles or Blu Ray players, a tractor, absolutely, a game console not so much.
The farmers want to be able to work on their property, Deere says otherwise.
Take a read here: https://www.wired.com/2015/04/...
here: http://modernfarmer.com/2016/0...
and here http://www.npr.org/sections/al...
All because software is used in a number of places in the vehicle ...
Automobiles, now also because of software, are covered under the DMCA , can Ford or GM now claim the same as Deere?
Sorry, but you really don't own that Ford GT 350 or that Corvette Sting Ray you think you own.
How long before Ford, GM or any other automobile manufacturer for that matter do what Deere has done?
The fact that they can do this, should scare anyone.
That is why this type of legislation is needed everywhere.
It is not about game consoles, it is about much, much more.
The DMCA was bad legislation 20 years ago when it was passed.
This really proves it.
Re:definitions? by Cyberglich · 2017-02-26 11:58 · Score: 1

because then they whould have the play by the same rules for there own repairs.. It apple tired this and then told users they had to buy a new $800 iphone for cracked screen or a broken button. even at apple store the user revolt would be massive.. Non serviceable works for something like airpods but not an iphone..
Re:definitions? by MobyDisk · 2017-02-26 12:58 · Score: 1

Years ago, the idea was more about forbidding manufacturers from suing people who made repair manuals and parts. And to stop them from putting DRM into the diagnostic mechanisms. Requiring them to provide documentation might be taking things too far. I dunno.
Re:definitions? by MobyDisk · 2017-02-26 13:01 · Score: 1

Nope - if they want to say your engine warranty is voided if you hang fuzzy dice on the mirror, they can. They just have to state so clearly.
They can state that, but it is only valid of the person doesn't take them to court over it. If the person does, the company will lose for violating the act.
Re: definitions? by nasch · 2017-02-26 19:33 · Score: 2, Funny

the populous of these states don't care about game consoles or Blu Ray players
Populace.
Re:definitions? by nasch · 2017-02-26 19:34 · Score: 1

What do these shops repair, all kinds of electronics? Including game consoles?
Re:definitions? by stealth_finger · 2017-02-26 21:40 · Score: 1

Basically you're lamenting people who don't know about complex electronics not being able to repair complex electronics. This years cell phones vs a ~10 year old console notwithstanding. The issue isn't everybody should be able to repair everything the issue is not being forced to go to a specific place like the manufacturer or officially licenced repairer to pay over inflated costs. You should be able to get it repaired by anyone with the skills and tools.

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Re:definitions? by fgouget · 2017-02-27 00:18 · Score: 1

ok, so you're going to require manufacturers to make repair manuals and parts available to the general public. What's to stop them from writing in the manual, "purchase and install Comprehensive Assembly #012934" and selling that part which is basically a replacement for the entire unit?
Then according to the article that's the only part they are allowed to provide to their authorized repair centers : "Bills [...] will require manufacturers to sell replacement parts and repair tools to independent repair companies and consumers at the same price they are sold to authorized repair centers." In other words if they do that they can no longer repair any device and can only perform replacements.
Re:definitions? by silentcoder · 2017-02-27 00:37 · Score: 1

They'll do exactly what MS did with the red-ring of death. They would rather give a replacement device for FREE than allow you to fix the one you have.

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Re:definitions? by MobyDisk · 2017-02-27 01:20 · Score: 1

Let me first state which parts of your post I am refuting. There are 2:

If a belt breaks, they can require you get it repaired at a dealer if you want warranty coverage.
They cannot require it. But they don't have to pay for it if you use a 3rd-party vendor.

if they want to say your engine warranty is voided if you hang fuzzy dice on the mirror, they can. They just have to state so clearly.
They can only do this if they first prove to the FTC that doing so would harm the product. Then, if the customer sues, it goes to the courts. After reading today, it seems that there is some kind of arbitration process. I don't know how that works though.
Understanding the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act
Emphasis mine:

"Tie-In Sales" Provisions
Generally, tie-in sales provisions are not allowed. Such a provision would require a purchaser of the warranted product to buy an item or service from a particular company to use with the warranted product in order to be eligible to receive a remedy under the warranty. The following are examples of prohibited tie-in sales provisions.

In order to keep your new Plenum Brand Vacuum Cleaner warranty in effect, you must use genuine Plenum Brand Filter Bags. Failure to have scheduled maintenance performed, at your expense, by the Great American Maintenance Company, Inc., voids this warranty.
While you cannot use a tie-in sales provision, your warranty need not cover use of replacement parts, repairs, or maintenance that is inappropriate for your product. The following is an example of a permissible provision that excludes coverage of such things.

While necessary maintenance or repairs on your AudioMundo Stereo System can be performed by any company, we recommend that you use only authorized AudioMundo dealers. Improper or incorrectly performed maintenance or repair voids this warranty.
Although tie-in sales provisions generally are not allowed, you can include such a provision in your warranty if you can demonstrate to the satisfaction of the FTC that your product will not work properly without a specified item or service. If you believe that this is the case, you should contact the warranty staff of the FTC's Bureau of Consumer Protection for information on how to apply for a waiver of the tie-in sales prohibition.
Re:definitions? by msauve · 2017-02-27 01:59 · Score: 1

If a belt breaks, they can require you get it repaired at a dealer if you want warranty coverage.

They cannot require it. But they don't have to pay for it if you use a 3rd-party vendor.
Which is exactly what I said. What do you suppose "if you want warranty coverage" means?

As for the rest, you're arguing a non-sequitur. I've already quoted to portion of the MMWA which covers tie-ins. Sure, a manufacturer can't require you to buy replacement parts from them which aren't provided free under the warranty. But, modifications or add-ons are completely different, the consumer is not fixing a broken item, they're changing it. Put another way, a manufacturer can't require use of branded parts, but they can prohibit use of modified or supplemental ones. A manufacturer can void a warranty if a consumer modifies the item, they only have to make that term clear in the warranty. As I said, if they wanted to void a warranty if a customer modifies the item, they can, even if that modification had no direct bearing on a failure which would have otherwise been covered under warranty.

Feel free to try again, because what you're referenced doesn't support your claim in any way. And, give proper legal citations next time (statute, regulation or case law),

--
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
Re: definitions? by TharMonk · 2017-02-27 02:34 · Score: 1

I know this is common nowadays, including in large servers, but I am old enough to still see it as very distasteful for a company to acknowledge that they are intentionally selling a crippled product. If the only difference between "Product A at $100" and "Product A+++ at $900" is that you flipped a few bits, it's just a strategy for squeezing more $$$ out of your customers. I didn't like it when SGI did it, I don't like it that IBM does it, and I still question why competition is so dried up in some areas that they wouldn't take advantage of the fact that they can build a better product than their competitors at literally no extra cost. (Yes, I understand that writing the software cost them... once. That was a one time cost that they're milking as if it were an ongoing cost.)
"Gosh, the builders made us a mansion on our property, but we're only allowed to use 700 square feet of it, unless we pay the premium fees! Oh, and don't forget the bathroom surcharge, and the hot water contract!"
Re:definitions? by h4ck7h3p14n37 · 2017-02-27 04:46 · Score: 1

If a company decides to make something that cannot be repaired... well, ok. It may be that laws like this simply push manufacturers to shut down their internal repair groups and stop supporting any warranty or repair at all.
Non-repairable units are somewhat common with automotive technology. They're called sealed units and you end up having to send the entire unit back to the manufacturer for service.
I just had some problems with the transmission in my Mitsubishi Lancer and one of the possible causes was a bad/sticking solenoid inside of the valve body. I have a TC-SST transmission which is manufactured by Getrag, not Mitsubishi. This means that my Mitsubishi dealer cannot perform any service on the internals of the transmission. Getrag does not sell individual solenoids, so you have to buy the entire assembly for $2,300 or use third-party parts.
Re:definitions? by MobyDisk · 2017-02-27 13:18 · Score: 1

Feel free to try again, because what you're referenced doesn't support your claim in any way. And, give proper legal citations next time (statute, regulation or case law),
LOL! You provided no citations!
Re:definitions? by MobyDisk · 2017-02-27 13:24 · Score: 1

The AC is correct here. The MMWA requires the manufacturer to prove the warranty isn't valid. Here's an example case where this happened:
Apple claimed, and continues to claim, that they can detect water damage to a phone.
Yet Apple knows that the sensors don't work and paid a settlement over it. Yet they only had to pay the settlement when enough people got together and brought a class-action lawsuit.
Under the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, apple can claim whatever terms they want. But ultimately, Apple had to prove to the court that the strips were indeed proof of water damage. When they failed to do so, they had to honor the warranty.
Re:definitions? by msauve · 2017-02-27 15:00 · Score: 1

You're an idiot, plain and simple. In my OP, I provided a link to the MMWA, in addition to direct quotes.

--
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
Re: definitions? by skr95062 · 2017-02-27 16:49 · Score: 1

looks that way.
Here are the links as text: https://www.wired.com/2015/04/...
http://modernfarmer.com/2016/0...
http://www.npr.org/sections/al...
Re:definitions? by MobyDisk · 2017-03-01 12:07 · Score: 1

I am neither plain, nor simple.
Re:definitions? by robinsc · 2017-03-06 22:16 · Score: 1

Granted, things like televisions are generally not considered repairable. - Which leads to more and more e-waste....
If repairability was a more desirable attribute we wouldn't be turning the work into a e-dump of castoffs.

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This type of legal protection for consumers.. by ChodaBoyUSA · 2017-02-25 16:41 · Score: 4, Insightful

...is why you are not required to only have the dealer repair your vehicle. Consumers must have the same freedom with electronic devices.

I can still remember by Anonymous Coward · 2017-02-25 16:58 · Score: 2, Interesting

When you brought a Sony radio there would be a schematic sheet inside the case so you could repair the electrical device yourself.

Re:I can still remember by Opportunist · 2017-02-26 00:10 · Score: 1

Back from the days when Sony was actually a reputable company, innovative and consumer oriented.
Yes, kids, back when we were young, they actually were. Almost impossible to fathom today.

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Re:I can still remember by Neuronwelder · 2017-02-26 05:58 · Score: 1

I remember those days and repairing TV', radios, and cassette players. They were great days!
Re:I can still remember by temcat · 2017-02-26 06:44 · Score: 1

In Soviet Union, schematic diagrams were routinely included with consumer electronics.
Re:I can still remember by Opportunist · 2017-02-28 21:51 · Score: 1

Most of all, it created domestic jobs instead of jobs abroad. You can't tell some Chinese to travel over here to repair your TV.

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They did it to themselves by thundercattt · 2017-02-25 17:04 · Score: 5, Insightful

When you make HUGE price tags to repair items, people are going to repair it themselves. I previously worked for Lenovo/Asus repair depot. To replace an LCD was over $300. Part on eBay is about$60 takes maybe 10 mins depending on the model. So when you flease the customer long enough, they attempt it themselves because the $300+tax or buy a new one for $400. Most think I'll give it a shot for $50.

Re:They did it to themselves by chromaexcursion · 2017-02-25 17:50 · Score: 1

The primary cost in repair is labor.
There is no such thing as a 10 minute repair. It can take that long to unpack the box it's shipped in. More like 2 hours. Add to that all of the other people involved, receiving, shipping, etc.
$60 part, $200 in labor and ancillary costs. And it's a business, they want to make a profit. You're at $300.
Re:They did it to themselves by Anonymous Coward · 2017-02-25 18:11 · Score: 4, Informative

I had a user break a screen on a Lenovo T540p laptop. It was 2 months out of warranty, so I asked Lenovo for a quote for repair.
They came back with 600$. We bought the laptop NEW for less than 900$.
The cost of the screen from the manufacturer was 70$. There are 10 screws in total that hold both the plastic case, and LCD in place. Without a manual, and on the first try it took me less than 15 minutes is dissemble the display enough that I could replace it. Expecting 500+ dollars for what is 15 minutes of work, and MAYBE another 30 to get it shipped back out is utterly insane.
In trying to replace the fans in a 2011 macbook pro this December, Apple quoted me about 150$, but they had to order the parts. I said go ahead, just so I could have some fans with an Apple warranty with them. I did tell them that I couldn't leave the laptop overnight, and work had to be done same day.
3 weeks, and 4 phone calls later they couldn't fit me in with a tech and I'd have to leave the laptop overnight and they could 'probably' have it ready by the end of the next day. Instead, I spent 15 minutes online, got 2 replacement fans for less than 50$, had them delivered 2 day later and 16 screws and 7 minutes later had replaced both fans immediately after receiving them.
Re:They did it to themselves by iCEBaLM · 2017-02-25 18:34 · Score: 1

Charging someone $300 to repair something worth $400 new is not a sound business model.
Re:They did it to themselves by Anonymous Coward · 2017-02-25 18:44 · Score: 1

There is no such thing as a 10 minute repair.
This is a rather convoluted example, as it is not for a consumer good:
One oscilloscope manufacturer has changed spun off and changed repair policies, so there is now a flat rate ~$2000 cost for all repairs. This line includes scopes my employer purchased in the $2200-2500 range, and which have some issue with flaky firmware that is solved by reflashing the firmware. When the scopes were under warranty, they claimed by phone it was a 15 minute repair. We once sent them several units together that arrived late morning, and they were shipped out early the same afternoon repaired and re-calibrated, without having to pay any expedite fee. I know from experience I can unpackage one of the scopes, run a self-test, and install an update on a unit in about 10 minutes. Maybe they were bullshitting us and had a team of people standing by to do our free repairs, but I think it is more reasonable that they just had one guy who was quick at pulling scopes out of boxes and plugging in a cable to do a common repair.
Someone with a setup for a common consumer product and practice repairing units every day, should be able to do a lot of things in a short time. Not every repair will be quick and some people will package thing stupidly or have a product abused to the point it is difficult to repair. But I think it is still reasonable to call some common repairs ten minute jobs when even someone in a mall kiosk can do it in a couple minutes (e.g. phone screen or battery replacement), especially when you can automate some of the testing and cleaning.
In the case of the scopes though, we found out they also jacked up the price of service contracts. They got a couple out of warranty repairs out of us, thus winning the battle, but at the cost of the war. While they squeezed a few thousand dollars of repair costs out of us they might not have gotten otherwise, we've spent many tens of thousands of dollars on scopes from other brands that they would have gotten otherwise.
Re:They did it to themselves by sir-gold · 2017-02-25 19:34 · Score: 1

I picked up an old Asus netbook for like $50, and it it had a bios setup password. Asus refused to tell anyone how to clear it (pulling the cmos battery doesn't work) and insisted the only fix was to send it to a service center.
I did eventually find a way to clear it using a command-line bios update though.
Re:They did it to themselves by dwywit · 2017-02-25 19:40 · Score: 4, Insightful

You're correct about the morality of it, but it's been a sound business model since planned obsolesence was first thought of.
It's a better long-term business strategy to keep selling another unit to a customer - frequently and repeatedly - rather than make a product that is 1. long lived (reliable), and 2. economically repairable.
Farming hardware - tractors, harvesters, etc - has traditionally been *very* reliable and long-lived. In other words, what you might call "overbuilt". They have a hard time comprehending why their computers don't last longer than 3-4 years. I have to try to explain modern economics to them.

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They sentenced me to twenty years of boredom
Re:They did it to themselves by Anonymous Coward · 2017-02-25 19:48 · Score: 1

IBM once told me to pay $1300 to repair a $1200 laptop. Several hours with them on the phone did not convince them of their insanity. In the end I let a local store have a crack at it for $200, with success.
Re:They did it to themselves by AthanasiusKircher · 2017-02-25 21:21 · Score: 2

Farming hardware - tractors, harvesters, etc - has traditionally been *very* reliable and long-lived. In other words, what you might call "overbuilt". They have a hard time comprehending why their computers don't last longer than 3-4 years. I have to try to explain modern economics to them.
Is there perhaps a larger moral to be learned from this? Is there something about farm equipment -- or FARMERS -- that's different?
Just a thought, but farming is one job that actually requires long-term financial planning. I've known a surprising number of people who appear to live "paycheck-to-paycheck." Even smart people with advanced degrees -- some of them with advanced math skills. But they simply can't manage money enough to not spend basically everything that's in their bank account before the next paycheck comes in.
And our modern systems of credit make this possible. Decades ago, loans were rare; a large percentage of people saved up even for big purchases (cars, etc.) rather than taking out credit. But today everything is split up into convenient monthly chunks, spread out over a pay period or two.
Farmers can't plan like that. They plant stuff one season and won't see profit until the end of the year. And droughts and pests and unusual hot/cold spells occur, and this year's crops don't live up. So, as a farmer, you MUST have to still think in terms of saving for "hard times" and in a multi-year budget span, or you'll likely go backrupt in just a few years. (Admittedly, this is something I heard a couple decades ago from old farmers; I don't know what the business is like these days where small family-owned farms have become such a rarity.)
So -- coming back to the parent's example: is it coincidence that farming equipment has maintained standards for durability as farmers have to plan for decades of expenses to justify a purchase for a large piece of equipment? While meanwhile most of American society happily accepts lower prices in exchange for junk products with shorter lifespans? -- the same people who carry balances on credit cards with ridiculous interest rates?
The unfortunate trend is that even the old "reliable" manufacturers of things like appliances seem to have bought into the "planned obsolesence" ideology, so even if you parents had an appliance that lasted for 20, 30, or even 40+ years, it may be likely that the same brand product will only last 5 years for you... even if they are still charging a premium price for their "brand reputation." I personally would happily pay a much higher cost for something if I know it's worth it in terms of durability in the long-run, but I find it harder and harder to find product lines that I trust enough to take a chance on the higher expense.
Re:They did it to themselves by thegarbz · 2017-02-25 21:53 · Score: 1

The repair vendors often also take the path of least resistance. Cracked Samsung Galaxy S5 mini, Samsung wanted $200 for the repair (they would have replaced the display assembly). Cornershop store wanted $140 (they would have replaced the display assembly).
I bought replacement equipment for $10. Those $10 got me:
1 Replacement glass for display assembly
4 plastic picks
2 prying tools
1 metal razor
3 cleaning cloths
1 Philips screwdriver
1 suction cap to hold glass
1 tube of glue solvent
1 replacement double sided tape to hold the assembly in place cut to match factory original
1 tube of UV sensitive glue
1 UV torch
3 batteries for UV torch
1 glass cleaning wipe
Like WTF!. It did take me a few hours to do but $10, and I now have a bunch of tools to use on other stuff too.
Re:They did it to themselves by JaredOfEuropa · 2017-02-26 00:08 · Score: 1

It may be true that in a lot of cases it is no longer really economically viable to have manufacturers repair stuff. Especially if the customer isn't just paying for the repair guy but also for a bunch of bureaucratic overhead. But that's precisely why this is a good law: to ensure that small corner shops without all that overhead, or the handy customer who doesn't place a high price on a few hours of his spare time, are allowed and enabled to make those repairs themselves.

--
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
Re:They did it to themselves by Kjella · 2017-02-26 00:32 · Score: 5, Insightful

When you make HUGE price tags to repair items, people are going to repair it themselves. I previously worked for Lenovo/Asus repair depot. To replace an LCD was over $300. Part on eBay is about$60 takes maybe 10 mins depending on the model. So when you flease the customer long enough, they attempt it themselves because the $300+tax or buy a new one for $400. Most think I'll give it a shot for $50.
I think the biggest issue for any repair shop is they can't deliver "I'll give it a shot" service. If it doesn't work, people aren't very likely to pay you $50 or even believe you really tried at all. If it turns out something else is broken too, they won't be very happy being stuck with a bill and a still broken machine. In fact you could end up in an argument about what was broke or if you broke it. If you do it yourself as a last-ditch attempt before throwing it in the trash you got nothing to lose, but deliver it to a repair shop and the customer will never accept that. They want a quote and a repaired machine for that price and you're burdened with the risk of delivering that. If those parts on eBay turns out to be faulty or shoddy knock-offs that don't quite work right or have quality issues that could become your problem too. Also if bad shit happens shortly after it comes from your shop they'll try to blame it on your repair, whether it's actually correct or not.
All of this starts amounting to quite a bit of overhead, if someone comes in with a machine you probably can't make an off the cuff estimate. First you have to figure out roughly what's wrong, what parts costs, the time you'll spend and the risk you're taking then give a quote based on that. And very often the customer will say it's not worth it and go buy a new machine and that time is lost. And then you'll have customers who want time estimates or worse yet guarantees and you have supply chain issues you'll spend time dealing with customer complains and they might haggle or cancel their business and you might get stuck with the bill. And you will have all the ordinary business overhead of having a shop, maintaining an inventory and billing system, taxes etc. and people that don't ever come to collect or pay. And if you're shipping you will spent time wrapping and unwrapping, collecting and delivering, dealing with transport damage etc.
I have some friends that are in the construction industry, they say pretty much the same. If you take away all the overhead, preparation and cleanup and just look at the time the handyman actually does this craft the hourly rate looks bizarre. But after dealing with "everything else" it's not like they walk away with that much per hour worked. It's the cost of doing it as a business, if they were just working on their own house they could do it way, way cheaper. It's simply a matter of trust and risk management, like I rented an apartment from an ex-classmate some years ago. Even though we weren't exactly friends he'd much rather rent to me than to some stranger, simply because he knew I'd be a no fuss tenant. The money is in easy business, dealing with complex and unique situations lie half-broken machines is often unreasonably time consuming and thus expensive. Getting a "known good" one off the assembly line often wins on simplicity.

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Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Re:They did it to themselves by Lumpy · 2017-02-26 01:08 · Score: 1

Welcome to the disparity of paying an electronics bench tech a reasonable wage versus your subsidized game console price designed to get you to buy it and $100 each games.
If you want minimum wage pay to the bench techs, then you must accept your own wages to be dropped to minimum wage as well.

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Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Re:They did it to themselves by Lumpy · 2017-02-26 01:10 · Score: 1

I would simply short the power pins of the flash chip on boot. Panasonic toughbook hada high security option in the CF-31 that you could lock the bios and not even panasonic could unlock it. I did on 30 of them by taking a 9V battery and blowing up the security chip on the board.

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Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Re:They did it to themselves by trenien · 2017-02-26 01:37 · Score: 1

'Modern economics'.
Too bad the planet won't take much more of it, but hey, you gotta mind the next quarter's results, that's what is really important...
Re:They did it to themselves by mindwhip · 2017-02-26 01:41 · Score: 1

What's more, most of the manufacturers (from phones to consoles to laptops) don't give a crap about your data and will likely replace your unit with a refurb rather than trying a direct repair. Your game saves? Gone. The photos of your kid? Gone. Your dissertation? Gone. Your accounts? Gone. Most independent repairers will care. Dead IPhone because you got caught in the rain? Your headphone jack broke? The charge connector broke? Apple (or any other manufacturer) don't care and will likely charge you 80%of the purchase price for a refurb with 3 months warranty and unrepaired issues that mean it will fail in 4. However there is a good chance a good independent will be able to either repair the damage directly or at least get you all your data back - even though Apple (or any other manufacturer) make this hard for them by not providing them with the parts and schematics needed. If they had the parts and information recovery would even be more likely.
The manufacturers claim safety issues - for example that if they made batteries available they might explode because someone fitted them wrong. The truth of the matter is anyone willing to do their own repair can already get hold of cheap, usually knockoff or QA failure batteries on the internet to do their repair anyway. If the manufacturers provided genuine batteries then there would be LESS chance of explosion.
Also they make out that the majority of self repairs in electronics would be attempted at home, where in reality most people would not try themselves but take the device to a local independent shop for repair where the staff (mostly - cant account for some idiots in any field, including current authorised repair shops) know what they are doing.

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[The Universe] has gone offline.
Re:They did it to themselves by tomhath · 2017-02-26 02:22 · Score: 1

You have to explain to them why a $300K tractor lasts longer than a $600 laptop?
Seriously though, consumer electronics are made as cheaply as possible. Whether it's planned obsolescence or consumer preference - that's the way it is. My assumption is that people look at a $600 bargain laptop and it seems to work just as well as the $3000 "professional" model, so they buy the cheap one, then complain when it conks out after a couple of years.
Re:They did it to themselves by swb · 2017-02-26 05:19 · Score: 3, Insightful

If you were running a shop fixing these things, you would have some process surrounding the job which took into account paperwork, getting the parts and laptop to the bench, opening the parts (which would no doubt be packaged up the wazoo), installing them, finishing paperwork, putting the laptop back and dealing with the old parts (electronics waste process) and putting the laptop back on the pickup shelf.
You'd be crazy if you didn't bill this as a one hour job and covering your labor costs would make it a $200 repair pretty easily. And if you were a smart business person, you'd probably also survey the market and price according to market options -- ie, buying a new laptop for $900 -- and extract another $100 in pricing.
Bam. $300 repair job. Sure, Lenovo's pricing is way out of line but they are in the business of selling new laptops, so they are going to structure pricing to motivate you to buy a new laptop.
But in the bigger picture, people fixing things as a business have other costs to consider that have to met by their labor charges. There's no such thing as pricing a labor job based solely on the time to do the primary repair. The *process* takes longer and that process is necessary to run the business and that cost has to be covered. Your personal repair speed isn't the basis of a business process.
Re:They did it to themselves by EnsilZah · 2017-02-26 09:04 · Score: 1

You seem to be comparing a professional tool to consumer goods.
A tractor is going to cost a significant amount of money and it being out of commission at a critical time can cost you a lot of money and possibly your whole crop.
If you run a kitchen you buy professional grade stoves and professional grade blenders and professional grade pots.
If you run a VFX company, you're going to buy workstations with ECC RAM that would prevent random bit flips and a chasis that allows you to slide out a fried PSU and replace it in 30 seconds so your artist can continue working and you don't miss the deadline, and you're not going to worry too much about it surviving for 20 years because by that time a newer machine will be 1000x as efficient and your old machine will be an historical curiosity.
If you're sitting at a Starbucks, pretending you're working on your novel on your Macbook Air, there are completely different considerations in play, like how evenly lit the Apple logo is on the back, or how heavy it will be to carry on your way to the Whole Foods, but that is a completely different class of product.
Re:They did it to themselves by Carewolf · 2017-02-26 10:42 · Score: 1

I had a user break a screen on a Lenovo T540p laptop. It was 2 months out of warranty, so I asked Lenovo for a quote for repair.
They came back with 600$. We bought the laptop NEW for less than 900$.
The cost of the screen from the manufacturer was 70$. There are 10 screws in total that hold both the plastic case, and LCD in place. Without a manual, and on the first try it took me less than 15 minutes is dissemble the display enough that I could replace it.

Why didn't you use the manual? You DO know Thinkpad is the one old school professional laptop that still comes with repair manuals right?
Well, they don't ship them physically anymore, but you can download them online. Complete with step by step instructions on how to replace everything from the RAM, over CPU and even the screen. They also sell spare parts.
Re:They did it to themselves by aberglas · 2017-02-26 12:19 · Score: 1

The other cost is the chance that the repair just wont work. My success rate is about 50%.
I replaced a screen on a ipad mini. Easy enough, and successful, but it now shows an error code on boot, and then works.
I suspect future versions will have digitally matched keys all over the place, like printer cartridges, so repair will be impossible.
Computers everywhere give us the power to control.
Re:They did it to themselves by tepples · 2017-02-26 12:21 · Score: 1

The market values the time of college students and others with little full-time professional experience less.
Re:They did it to themselves by LocalH · 2017-02-26 16:37 · Score: 1

To be fair, it's piss easy to fully backup a jailed iOS device, and not much harder to backup one's jailbreak setup if they are jailbroken. In fact, if you send an iOS device to Apple without resetting it, you're kinda not really thinking smart.

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FC Closer
Re:They did it to themselves by easyTree · 2017-02-26 18:40 · Score: 1

But in the bigger picture, people fixing things as a business have other costs to consider that have to met by their labor charges. There's no such thing as pricing a labor job based solely on the time to do the primary repair. The *process* takes longer and that process is necessary to run the business and that cost has to be covered. Your personal repair speed isn't the basis of a business process.
So, in summary, it's better for everyone if manufacturers outsource repairs to their customers? :D

--
Requiem for the American Dream
Re:They did it to themselves by swb · 2017-02-27 00:34 · Score: 1

That's more than likely part of the high cost of OEM repairs -- they already outsource that stuff to third parties, so there are additional transaction costs of job routing and the material and overhead costs of parts depots spread all over. Plus most of the labor providers are big companies with big overheads which jacks up costs.
It would probably be good for everybody if OEMs would build out a network that used existing screwdriver shops as official repair locations. They do a lot of the work now, but are kind of cut out of the parts supply. There's one near my house I've used to help source parts for my own repairs and they say that OEM parts are tough to get because the OEMs don't supply repair parts like they used to. They often rely on EBay and stripping broken systems for parts these days.

Really!? Say it ain't so!! by wierd_w · 2017-02-25 17:10 · Score: 1

An industry that makes bank on people buying replacement consoles and software titles to replace "damaged" product, fighting to prevent end users plugging that revenue stream!?

SAY IT AIN'T SO! /s

For those that dont understand how software can be an issue:
Suppose that Nintendo or Microsoft or Sony decide that they want to not tie software downloads to a user account, but instead to a hardware unique key. Now when your console dies, that's all she wrote.

Another possibility is that they fear that tools to recover data (which would naturally develop from open standards and tools to 'repair' a console, such as from a failed firmware update semi-brick) will allow users to back up their downloads, and or, share pirated content.

Nevermind that at least in Nintendo's case, the ability to fake an install ticket on Wii-U allows users to download directly from Nintendo's NUS service, and install titles on their wii-u free of charge. This outstanding, existing, channel for piracy takes second fiddle to trying to plug a hypothetical future one. (because that makes total sense! /s)

In reality, Nintendo and pals are worried that people will keep obsolete consoles well past their expected service lifes, and that this will impact the residual revenue stream of re-released titles later. (Like all the times they have released the zelda titles. 3 times each now for Twilight princess, twice for WindWaker, more than 5 times now for the original NES zelda titles, etc.) They are worried that these old consoles will develop cult follower status, that indie developers will continue to develop for those consoles without paying developer licenses or royalties, due to their being past end of life-- (much like say, Tepples who posts here does for NES and SNES) heaven forbid if any of those are better than what Nintendo/MS/Sony/etc, are currently offering-- or worse, game houses decide to target an obsolete platform just to avoid platform license fees using open SDKs.

They fear losing the privilege of being the gatekeepers, and becoming less relevant in the face of very powerful obsolete consoles remaining in the market.

That they would be terrified of right to repair is a no-brainer.
The reality that the public requires this right is also a no-brainer.

One of those has to win out, and consequences will follow.

Re:Really!? Say it ain't so!! by dbIII · 2017-02-25 19:31 · Score: 1

That they would be terrified of right to repair is a no-brainer
Indeed. Isn't it funny when companies like Sony scream "let the market decide" and then put barriers in the way of capitalism when that market decides that repairing broken Sony stuff is worthwhile?

Re:Good by Anubis+IV · 2017-02-25 17:15 · Score: 4, Insightful

Yes it is. If you own the item, then all of the rights of ownership are to be afforded to you. You get to do with it as you please, and that includes repairing it.

It's a derived right, to be sure, but it is a right, nonetheless.

So Many Control Freaks by zenlessyank · 2017-02-25 17:17 · Score: 2

Always your best friend until they get your money. Soon we will just be a rat getting a food pill in a cage.

Re:Why cant these companies by hey! · 2017-02-25 17:38 · Score: 1

Because they can't make money off that position?

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Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.

Re:Why cant these companies by wierd_w · 2017-02-25 17:48 · Score: 1

Sure they can. Just not as *MUCH* money.

Re:Terrible Idea by Grishnakh · 2017-02-25 17:51 · Score: 2

Oh please. The scenario you described could be easily prevented by writing these Right to Repair laws so that requiring consumers to ship devices out of the country (or maybe even the state) is illegal, and consumers are entitled to a full refund from the retailer if a manufacturers tries this.

Re:Terrible Idea by Anonymous Coward · 2017-02-25 17:51 · Score: 5, Informative

The point of the law is to make it so that farmers can repair their tractors and other equipment. In the past decade, big tractor companies have been locking down their machines using the DMCA. Since it could take days or weeks for a repairman to come by and fix it, and that time lost without the machine could cost the farmer their livelihood, it has put them in an impossible position. That this affects pretty much every other market besides farm equipment and vehicles is an unintended side effect of the computerization of everything and application of the DMCA to lock down all those things.

Re:YES ! Right to Repair! by Pentium100 · 2017-02-25 18:02 · Score: 1

It's not the job of the company to make it easier to repair. The job of the company is to make money. The job of the government is to make the company make the device easier to repair, because the government (in a democracy) is supposed to represent the people.

Re:Terrible Idea by Pentium100 · 2017-02-25 18:05 · Score: 1

I do not care about the 3rd party service. I do not want to deal with authorized service. I want a service manual (the same one given to the employees of the authorized service) and for the manufacturer to sell me the needed spare parts.

MS used to ban people for useing there own hdd's by Joe_Dragon · 2017-02-25 18:11 · Score: 4, Insightful

MS used to ban people for useing there own hdd's (much cheaper ones) in the 360. And the 360 used Ext case ones. At the same time the ps3 was open to any 2.5 one.

During the 70's or 80's... by magusxxx · 2017-02-25 18:13 · Score: 3, Interesting

This reminds me of a true story that keeps rearing it's head up ever few years. A certain computer company charged their clients thousands of dollars to upgrade each of their mainframes. Sure enough the upgrade worked great. Without flaw. The Problem: All the technician did was flip a switch inside the machine. While this discussion is about repair service, it falls under the same logic. A lot of the little tweaks to fix something could be done with little or no cost.

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Care killed the cat, but satisfaction brought it back.

Re:During the 70's or 80's... by dwywit · 2017-02-25 19:46 · Score: 2

IIRC, that was Big Blue - the memory board already had the capacity, and the "upgrade" was a tech removing a jumper allowing access to the second bank - It must have been cheaper to manufacture a board with full capacity and a jumper, than to manufacture two boards with different capacities.

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They sentenced me to twenty years of boredom
Re:During the 70's or 80's... by Blaskowicz · 2017-02-25 23:08 · Score: 1

More like today's per-core software licensing, I would say. I bet the price of the additional hardware was negligible in this case (but, a not fully populated board would still have been a lot cheaper to make).
Maybe manufacturing a whole new mainframe was expensive, but not nearly as much as what they charged in sales/rent/leasing/charges. Rather than with a Nintendo or a home computer, I think it should be compared with a jet fighter program. Spend a zillion on R&D then only build a few hundreds or thousands computers of that model, if that. Then a jet fighter is sold for many multiples of unit production cost and the customer gets to pay for maintenance and shit for decades.
Re:During the 70's or 80's... by drinkypoo · 2017-02-25 23:47 · Score: 2

Back in the early days of IBM mainframes, any software you wrote on it belonged to IBM. Things have changed a lot since then, but you can still pay someone to flip a switch. Only now the switch is virtual and has DRM to prevent you from flipping it yourself.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:During the 70's or 80's... by Lumpy · 2017-02-26 01:18 · Score: 2

Except you cant use Microsoft WORD to write anything that says anything negative about Microsoft.... it's in the EULA.
Oh and they own your docx files because it is in their format.
Oh and you had better read the EULA of their Visual Studio as to what they own of yours.....
Nothing has changed except that they hide it better in a wall of text written by the scummiest people on the planet. Intellectual Property Lawyers.

--
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.

do you want $100+ oil changes at the dealer ship? by Joe_Dragon · 2017-02-25 18:15 · Score: 1

Do you want $100+ oil changes at the dealer ship?

DRM'ed tires that need an dealer install and maybe even an max miles limit?

Re:Good by JonathanP.Bennett · 2017-02-25 18:15 · Score: 2

Exactly correct. The right to repair is a blatantly obvious ramification of ownership rights.

Re:xWare reverting by wierd_w · 2017-02-25 18:47 · Score: 2

Dont be retarded. It can be serviced by something like u-boot and a functioning uart, or jtag interface. Things that are usually there, just without pins soldered on. I think the cost increase is about .01$ to populate those pins. The software in the device is ALREADY THERE to flash the firmware initially at the factory. Documenting how to connect, what the cable pinout is, the voltage, and providing a rescue firmware image online would meet the requirements.

This is not some crazy thing where they would have to add missing functionality. It is a situation where they just need to provide some docs, an online download, and populate some pins they already have pads for on their device, in 90+% of cases.

Back in my younger days... by __aaclcg7560 · 2017-02-25 19:00 · Score: 2

I can't tell you how many Atari joysticks I've broke — or fixed — back in the day. I even tried building my own light pen on a few occasions, but those things never worked.

Re:Back in my younger days... by JaredOfEuropa · 2017-02-26 00:15 · Score: 1

Yeah I remember those. Broken cables or bent metal plates on the "switches", easy fixes. And walkmans! The 3.5mm jack in those would inevitably work itself loose from the PCB; another easy fix that not many people were able to carry out. In other words: great ways for a high school kid to make some extra money...

I still always try to fix something myself before tossing it or calling a repair guy, from cars to washing machines. And it's still a great way to save money.

--
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...

Re:MS used to ban people for useing there own hdd' by wierd_w · 2017-02-25 19:02 · Score: 5, Interesting

Want to know the actual difference between a "legitimate" HDD, and a not-legitimate one?

A small PNG image file loaded onto some magic sectors, and an 8 byte magic number written directly afterward. The drive's firmware was default factory, but only a small handful of drives were supported.

That image was of the microsoft logo.

Yes. The presence or absence of that little png file is SO TOTALLY going to change how a game is played online. /s

No-- Microsoft KNEW that they were vastly overcharging for a COTS component that was not special in any way except for the data stored on the platter, which is very inexpensive to replicate. They did not care. They were the gatekeepers, and were milking people dry by purposefully selling base systems without HDDs, or with very tiny ones, while pushing digital downloads.

Know what else? When it came to the "USB" storage options, I put various very high speed USB2.0 devices that I had PERSONALLY TESTED the raw performance of and verified that they were bitching fast, on my 360 to see if MS was full of shit when the console did its own testing-- Sure enough, it was premium bullshit. It would consistently say the device did not meet recommended speed requirements. Know what I did? I went out and bought one of the shitty USB memory sticks MS was hawking, and tested it myself. It underperformed compared to the units I had been attaching. The magic? The USB string-- For real.

Bullshit. Premium bullshit all around, and people just ignore it, because there is no alternative. Fuck that noise.

Seems simple to me by Solandri · 2017-02-25 19:16 · Score: 1

We don't need a right to repair law. All we need is a law that says if a manufacturer adds something to a product to make it harder for the end-user to fix, then they must fix the product for free forever.

The rationale being that if the end-user is not free to fix the product, then the end-user is not the owner. The end-user has merely rented the product. The manufacturer is still the owner, and thus is responsible for the cost of repairs.

Re:Seems simple to me by wierd_w · 2017-02-25 19:42 · Score: 1

No--
Say they are responsible for disposal of the unit.
If the end user is NOT the owner, they do not have legal right to destroy or dispose of the product after it reaches end of life, because they are only renting.
That means that in order to be responsible with their product lifecycle, they have to plan for disposition, and provide a mechanism for the end user to return old product for proper disposal.
That is more expensive than you realize, because it basically doubles the costs of shipping on a product's life cycle, *AND*, it introduces a whole other branch of regulatory issues that the company must then conform with to meet necessary EPA (or other regulatory agency) requirements to assure that toxic heavy metals, and other potentially hazardous materials contained in the hardware are disposed of PROPERLY.
Watch that shit vanish FAST.
Re:Seems simple to me by Blaskowicz · 2017-02-25 23:26 · Score: 2

Where I live stores already have garbage bins for light bulbs, batteries, small electronic and electric devices like phones and toasters, routers, hair dryers and so on.
A busted Xbox 360 would easily fit in there. Some tiny "recycling" tax, maybe European, is advertised on high tech crap.
So while your idea is likable, the problem is it's already done, and it's too easy.
Re:Seems simple to me by Neuronwelder · 2017-02-26 06:08 · Score: 1

wired_w, you got a great head on your shoulders. You are a problem solver. This world desperately needs people like you.

Re:Terrible Idea by Pentium100 · 2017-02-25 19:24 · Score: 1

Boards - yes, might be a bit difficult to repair a modern board, though my friend works at a cell phone repair company and they do solder things on the base board of the cellphone. Still, I would like to be able to buy the spare parts from the manufacturer instead of searching for them on ebay etc. And some devices have mechanical components - I would really like to get a replacement gear, pulley or something like that.

Re:xWare reverting by sir-gold · 2017-02-25 19:27 · Score: 1

Where does it say that the " firmware to revert an electronic device" has to reside on the device itself? All they really have to do is provide the files for download (like they do for most smartphones) and a method to re-flash everything using a PC.

Re:do you want $100+ oil changes at the dealer shi by sir-gold · 2017-02-25 19:27 · Score: 2

Sounds a lot like ink cartridges.

Re:do you want $100+ oil changes at the dealer shi by Anonymous Coward · 2017-02-25 19:34 · Score: 1

Do you want $100+ oil changes at the dealer ship?

DRM'ed tires that need an dealer install and maybe even an max miles limit?

Hmm, how could I implement that? First off, if the oil does react as predicted with temperature and pressures the ECM could shut down. I suppose you could implement some kind of sensor inside the oil pan that checked for that particular oil, perhaps by requiring a special additive that would react with elements in/ the sensor. The sensor would just be an oil level sensor, but using the wrong oil would detect as no oil and no start.

DRM tires. Meh, that is even easier. I'd be surprised if you couldn't embed some kind of rfid tags that somehow was checked by the ECM. The computer would just refuse to shift into gear if your tires were too old, or if the tread had worn down to the point where the tag was gone.

Of course, getting this kind of stuff into after the fact is harder. People will fight it, but it is certainly doable. In fact making any change at all that can be detected by the ECM is enough to possibly have to have the whole configuration retested and resigned by the dealership. After all, if there are changes, then you may be violating environmental or safety laws...

Let's go on.. just for fun
AC compressor: As with the oil, use modified chemicals and such that are easily lost. Sensors will flag the missing substances and shut down.

alternator: The 3 phase waveforms from the alternator are used by the ECM to optimize part of the close loop operation, but these signals can only be recorded if the alternator successfully authenticates with the control processor.

Power steering: Electric is common. Just have it authenticate with the control processor.

water pump; Require non standard chemicals to service. Use the wrong radiator fluid and your water pump self destructs.

Internal engine parts can be the same.

Spark plugs. What, you thought DRM was only for complex things? The new spark plugs are integrated into the coil through proprietary connectors, and each coil must authenticate with the control processor. Coils will automatically report as bad after so many days.

automatic transmissions: speciality fluids for one. You can measure transmission slip and determine if your running out of spec. the electronics in the transmission must of course authenticate, but they should also monitor transmission systems.

In short, while I don't bet all these ideas are doable, I'd bet you could lock down almost are car maintenance if you wanted to. Never forget the usual one of requiring car specific speciality tools to get anything done.

Personally, I still haven't bought a new car, and may never do so.

It's about the ethics in console hardware. by Anonymous Coward · 2017-02-25 19:42 · Score: 1

Think of the console hardware makers children!

Non-Issue for all gamers. by Hylandr · 2017-02-25 21:14 · Score: 1

If you built your own PC this is a non-issue.

--
~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.

Re:Non-Issue for all gamers. by Anonymous Coward · 2017-02-25 22:39 · Score: 1

I wouldn't be so cocky if I were you.
PC gaming has been going downhill in that regard for some time: "trusted" OS locks via the BIOS, OS bound to hardware, Microsoft trying to corral everyone into their store, Valve effectively controlling all game distribution, etc. And that's not even taking Notebooks into account that largely cannot be repaired and often require proprietary drivers. Everyone is trying to lock the PC down and take control away from the user.
Re:Non-Issue for all gamers. by lucasnate1 · 2017-02-26 02:35 · Score: 2

Even if he does buy from them, if the majority won't, it may fail. The majority drags everyone with it.

--
Avantgarde Hebrew science fiction
Re:Non-Issue for all gamers. by SuricouRaven · 2017-02-26 07:41 · Score: 1

Until the components fail, and you're left with a thousand-dollar high-end graphics card that just won't work.
Re:Non-Issue for all gamers. by Hylandr · 2017-02-26 09:54 · Score: 1

High end video cards don't cost that much and you know it. At least PC's are modular and components can be replaced individually unless you submerge the whole thing in water.
Troll harder.

--
~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.

Re:YES ! Right to Repair! by Anonymous Coward · 2017-02-25 21:21 · Score: 1

Its the job of the govt to enact laws that their voters voted them into office for. The law trumps what a purpose of a company is.

People have rights, corporations don't.

Commercial grade not consumer grade by dbIII · 2017-02-25 21:38 · Score: 3, Informative

Is there perhaps a larger moral to be learned from this? Is there something about farm equipment -- or FARMERS -- that's different?

Not really IMHO.
They are at the same level as people who buy industrial plant and expect it to last for decades as well.
They are buying commercial grade equipment and expect commercial grade parts availability instead of the cheap short lifetime stuff the retail consumer is expected to put up with. I once visited a foundry for an agricultural pump manufacturer. They had the patterns for up to 70 year old equipment and cast those parts every now and again to maintain their policy of "lifetime" support. While that's an extreme example that is what is sometimes expected of equipment that is used in production instead of the throwaway consumer items we are expected to put up with.

Re:Commercial grade not consumer grade by silentcoder · 2017-02-27 02:52 · Score: 1

Another example is military. Back at the end of World War 2 the army sold off a bunch of excess stuff. My grandmother bough a set of cooking pots. They were aluminium - which at the time was not yet very widely used - built for soldiers cooking in the field.
They were made by one of the companies who made top-of-the-range kitchen utensils at the time, I forgot the name - but I believe they still do. But these were made to military specifications - designed to survive being driven around in the back of a Jeep over open fields with no roads, and the rough cooking of wartime conditions and survive. May have been Adis but I wouldn't be willing to say that under oath.
Here's the thing - the typical lifetime of a consumer grade cooking pot by the same company is 3 to 5 years. 10 if you get really expensive stuff and get lucky.
Those pots my granny bought back in 1945 ? She bought several set. One went to each of her two daughters, and she kept one for herself. I inherited hers after she passed away in 2006.
I am now the third generation to use those pots. Most of the pots I bought in my lifetime has since been discarded as they got warped by heat. The ones my granny bought in 1945 are still going strong without the slightest signs of visible wear. My mom still cooks with her set, and my aunt with hers as well.
Being used in typical urban kitchens - after being designed for wartime conditions - these pots are basically indestructable - and they couldnt' have been THAT much more expensive to make since the Army was able to buy such bulk that my granny on her bottom-of-the-rung-didn't-finish-high-school civil servant income was able to buy several sets in bulk after the war.
Now can you imagine what would have happened if the company was selling this stuff in stores in 1945 ? They'd be out of business ages ago since their business sales could never exceed population growth (which is declining in the kind of economies where people can buy high-end cook ware). Once bought - a family would have that for generations - and their only hope is when families branched wide enough that there were more kids than pots and some had to buy again.
So they don't - just because they CAN mass produce pots that last for generations - it's not in their interest to do so. This is the downside of the capitalist demand to always grow and always having to earn - it means that you must run your business in such a way as to guarantee you'll have customers next year, to do that you can't just treat existing ones well - you have to make sure what you sell them WILL need a replacement soon enough. That this leads to massive waste and using up resources far faster than required is a pity but one that you cannot avoid.
I suppose you could make a case for selling pots that will last generations by charging three hundred times what pots normally cost and making a crapload of money once off to retire on - the trouble is, when you do that, nobody buys them: not because they can't see the value, a pot your grandchildren will use (And thus far the evidence is my kid will get those pots from me one day and make it 4 generations) once off is definitely cheaper than replacing your cookware every few years, even at 300 times the price. It's just that very few people have the kind of money to be able to take advantage of that deal.

--
Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
Re:Commercial grade not consumer grade by dbIII · 2017-02-28 13:22 · Score: 1

Great story, but with this bit you've been sold something not so great.

Now can you imagine what would have happened if the company was selling this stuff in stores in 1945 ? They'd be out of business ages ago since their business sales could never exceed population growth
You forgot about export markets.
Manufacturers who get large enough to last do not.
Some slick salesguy probably sold you that snake oil like about how it's necessary to make crap that doesn't last but it is bullshit. Quality stuff finds a large enough market. Marketing shit has really fucked a lot of us up to believe all kinds of manipulative bullshit so it's best to try to dig your way out of it instead of spreading lame excuses for poor quality. The "throwaway consumer culture" that has been pervasive since the 1970s needs no excuses. It's not about sustaining a business, it's about gouging by charging close to the price of a quality product while selling utter crap.
There's plenty of stuff made now that is made to last despite the vast amount of crap that does not. It's hard to find due to misinformation from salesfolk hyping crap and crap marked up to the same price as quality products.
Re:Commercial grade not consumer grade by silentcoder · 2017-02-28 18:55 · Score: 1

I don't AGREE that such things shouldn't be sold - I just know what THEIR argument for not selling them is.

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Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
Re:Commercial grade not consumer grade by dbIII · 2017-02-28 19:13 · Score: 1

Fair enough, but I very strongly disagree with the market saturation excuse. It's been bullshit since before the United States were founded and a large chunk of the economy of the colonies was based on exports.

pinball repair by Bender+Unit+22 · 2017-02-25 22:10 · Score: 2

I sure am happy that I can repair my old pinball machines, that every nut and bolt has a part number so I can find a replacement part.
Addams Family Pinball Repair - Part 1 of 2, The Transistor
They sure wouldn't have lasted for 30 years without repairs.
They still fulfilled their role and made money for the original owner somewhere.

Re:pinball repair by Joe_Dragon · 2017-02-26 04:21 · Score: 1

at least most of the roms's are somewhere to be downloaded under then that one manufacturer (long dead) that wants to you to pay for them and pay for PDF manuals.
Re:pinball repair by Bender+Unit+22 · 2017-02-26 05:48 · Score: 1

Indeed. :D http://www.ipdb.org/
And on the Twilight Zone that I own, one of the programmers of the original software, made a "home" version of the ROM.
Re:pinball repair by Joe_Dragon · 2017-02-26 06:07 · Score: 1

mame / pinmame rom download sites have about 99% of the roms even most of the ones that can't be in ipdb.org.
Re:pinball repair by Bender+Unit+22 · 2017-02-27 10:57 · Score: 1

Thanks for the tip. :)

That's because you're a fucking consumer by MrKaos · 2017-02-25 22:24 · Score: 4, Insightful

Now shut the fuck up and send more money.

Signed - Microsoft, Apple, Sony

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My ism, it's full of beliefs.

Re:That's because you're a fucking consumer by geekmux · 2017-02-26 00:13 · Score: 1

Now shut the fuck up and send more money.
Signed - Microsoft, Apple, Sony
Corporate Arrogance is very real today, and because of that, you're being far too fucking polite with your wording.

Re:Lease model work around? by Calydor · 2017-02-25 22:40 · Score: 1

I would honestly be happy to trade able-to-repair for free-repair rules on a lot of things that I am just not competent or equipped to repair with or without a manual.

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-=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-

Re:MS used to ban people for useing there own hdd' by wierd_w · 2017-02-25 23:02 · Score: 5, Informative

USB2.0 is faster than many optical disc drives, AC.

For reference, the max bandwidth of USB2.0 is 480mbit, or about 60MB/sec.

A typical DVD drive (we will even say that this is a fancy 12x drive, just to give it the benefit of the doubt), such as found in an xbox360, has a max potential bandwidth of 132mbits. (16.5MB/sec)

So YES, AC. A "Fast" USB2.0 device is one that favors the top possible speed allowable by the bus, which mechanical disk drives have no problems whatsoever providing.

The drives in question were capable of sustained sequential reads in excess of 40MB/sec, and arbitrary random reads of about 20mb/sec.

The Microsoft branded flash module? about half that.

Re:Terrible Idea by citizenr · 2017-02-25 23:06 · Score: 1

This is a TERRIBLE IDEA!

Get a clue. If a state makes a law that anyone can get access to repair parts and manuals the manufacturer will close all authorized service in that state. Require shipping the device out of state for repair.

Congrats, you just described APPLE _right now_. Yes, Get a clue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

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Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.

Flawed Bill, sneaky language by citizenr · 2017-02-25 23:10 · Score: 1

>require manufacturers to sell replacement parts and repair tools to independent repair companies and consumers at the same price they are sold to authorized repair centers

It so happens Apple does NOT sell any parts/tools/manuals to their "authorized repair centers". What they do is let you use the name, and in exchange get paid $18 per item you ship to Apples Texas facility for exchange, all while charging your client $149-1299.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

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Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.

Re:MS used to ban people for useing there own hdd' by drinkypoo · 2017-02-25 23:45 · Score: 5, Informative

That was because you had to mod the console to use your own HDD originally, you weren't banned for using your own HDD, you were banned for breaking the online service terms and conditions of not using a modded console.

Those terms and service were illegal right on their face, because the Magnuson-Moss act prohibits voiding a warranty for a repair if the repair uses compatible parts. And the video game companies already lost the legal battle to prohibit people from using their trademarks as an unlock; if you make that the unlock, then you simultaneously give everyone permission to use it for that purpose.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"

Re:Terrible Idea by drinkypoo · 2017-02-25 23:49 · Score: 1

I'm not making this up. I bought something. It stopped working. It had to be shipped to China for warranty repair. It wasn't expensive and I threw it out. Lesson learned.

You should get better at talking to eBay. A recent dispute I was in which culminated with a refund was won by me with a statement about how the seller wanted me to become an expert in international shipping law so that they can get back their counterfeit product and see where it went wrong. Problem solved.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"

As a tech (component level repair) by inflex · 2017-02-25 23:49 · Score: 3, Insightful

Being able to get *access* to schematics and boardviews in a timely, and legal manner would be a real nice thing and one of the big pushes behind trying to get this "Right to repair" bill through. Seems a lot of the counter-fight is trying to detail how "poor dumb consumers" shouldn't be near this stuff in the first place ( and to a degree they're right ) as opposed to techs already skilled in the processes involved in the repair work., In reality what a lot of people such as myself and Louis Rossmann (who'll be there speaking in favour of the bill) would like to have is the ability to obtain the information required directly from the manufacturer, even at a fair-and-reasonable price.

In the old days (80's~90's) you could call up the service dept of most equipment manufacturers and for $15~$20 they would mail you the documents you wanted. These days you have to hope someone leaks it out to the internet. The businesses claim "trade secrets" but in reality there's nothing secret in those schematics, almost every section is pretty much a lift from the 'suggested/example layouts' from the part/chip manufacturer in the first place.

Ultimately it's all about preventing people from holding off buying a new product, but rebuffed under the guise of "safety" or "secrets".

Re:As a tech (component level repair) by Rick+Schumann · 2017-02-26 06:03 · Score: 1

Hello there brother, I've been working in electronics for about 35 years ;-)

Back in the '80s, we'd yet to have to deal with SMDs (Surface Mount Components, for the non-techies out there). Everything was through-hole, with the exception of VLSI ICs in PGA (Pin Grid Array) packages soldered into PCBs, all you really needed was a decent soldering iron (variable temperature preferred), and a Soldapullt desoldering tool (or, if you were rich, a desoldering station that used a hollow tip iron and vacuum, like Pace made) to replace just about any component. My first PC-compatible computer was a clone XT, and I spent a weekend socketing all the ICs on the thing; that's how easy it was, comparatively speaking.

Today, however, you rarely see through-hole components at all, and BGA (Bump Grid Array) ICs are the rule, and you need a several-thousand-dollar hot-air repair station to work with them, special training to use it, and even then there's no guarantee you won't wreck the PCB itself removing a (suspected -- more on that in a moment) IC, and a tiny chance of being able to install a replacement successfully (not all solder bumps may adhere properly -- or you may accidentally get two or more shorted); inspection of an newly-installed BGA is impossible unless you have a specialized xray machine, and even then there's no guarantee that 100% of the solder bumps are adhered to the pads correctly. Add to that the fact that PCBs now are multi-layer, layers counting into the double-digits are common, and considering there are buried Vias (plated-through holes that connect traces on different layers, but that aren't on the top or bottom layer and therefore inaccessible) there is usually no way to access all the signals necessary to effectively troubleshoot a PCB -- guys sticking their Xbox motherboards into toaster ovens notwithstanding (they just get lucky)! Even passive components in SMD form can be difficult to deal with (you need a microscope to deal with 0201 form-factor components!), and have you ever seen amateurs trying to even replace a broken SMD USB jack? It's usually a horror show by the time they get done with it.

The above are the major reasons that consumer repair of modern electronics is nigh-unto impossible, not so much corporations wanting to screw consumers out of as much money as possible; it's just not cost-effective to try to repair damaged or defective PCBs, except on a large-scale basis, and in some cases may just not be possible at all. Sadly, aside from the lack of serviceability, this also means that much modern electronics are not 'sustainable' in the environmental sense, either, because they're essentially 'throw-away'; once dead, they can only really be cruched up and recycled, at great cost, and as we've seen in some news stories, often end up shipped around the world just to get rid of them (and eventually dumped somewhere) because it ends up costing more to 'recycle' them than the value of what you can extract from them. 'Trade secrets' are only a small part of why manufacturers don't want anyone 'unauthorized' from having detailed service information on what they manufacture.

Believe you me, I wish things were as easy to work on as they once used to be. There was a time you and I both remember when you could resurrect just about anything from the dead if you wanted to take the time to do it; now it's pretty much impossible unless it's something very simple.

As a footnote to all the above, our advances in electronics technology has also relatively killed electronics as a hobby; you can still get through-hole ICs, but not so much for VLSI or SoC (System on a Chip) ICs, they just don't (or can't) make them in package styles that are accessible to someone with a soldering iron. As a result you only have very simple electronics accessible to the amateur -- and that makes for rather un-exciting projects that just don't spark the imagination of many, especially when so many seem to believe that analog e
Re:As a tech (component level repair) by Neuronwelder · 2017-02-26 06:26 · Score: 1

A few obstacles to overcome. CRT oscilloscopes which are real-time and fast response - high frequency - $$$. You can spot a glitch or intermittent problem on them, easily. Parts? Good luck. Not to many of us 'Do it yourself' guys left = few parts outlets.. (I used to repair video games in the old days. You would not believe what you can see with a CRT 'scope'.)
Re:As a tech (component level repair) by SuricouRaven · 2017-02-26 07:47 · Score: 1

You're not quite right on hobbyist electronics. It seems to have experienced something of a revival recently. The difficult electronics are now readily available in modular form, like arduinos and the many many breakout board accessories. It does tend to leave analog electronics neglected a bit, but there are still plenty of hobbyists around.
I've published a few of my hobby designs. I try to avoid SMD-only components wherever possible.
Re:As a tech (component level repair) by Rick+Schumann · 2017-02-26 07:53 · Score: 1

I'm really not counting things that are sold and used like Legos, blocks you just snap together. Most Arduino types don't really seem to learn much about basic electronics and struggle to make an LED blink.
Re:As a tech (component level repair) by brantondaveperson · 2017-02-26 10:04 · Score: 1

He's right about hobbyist electronics - while BGA is more or less impossible, larger SMD parts are perfectly doable, and you can have custom 2-layer (or even up to 12-layer, if you're incredibly rich...) built for you cheaply. You can populate these by hand, according to your own designs, and build things that are pretty damn useful, and definitely cool. Added to which, plenty of DIP parts are still available, and you can build devices that'll run up to 20MHz (probably more if you try) on stripboard. I've build audio hardware, and toys for the kids, and remote sensors, and so-on. Recently it's all been SMD, because it's smaller, and cheaper. All you need is a steady hand, good lighting, and a loupe. The end results look incredibly awesome too.
I do agree about Arduinos though. Electronics, they are not. And of course, you're quite right about the repairability of modern consumer electronics, it's completely impossible.
Re:As a tech (component level repair) by inflex · 2017-02-26 12:26 · Score: 1

It's interesting. Some people bemoan the loss of pin-through parts, strongly associating it with servicability; on the other hand, I for one actually much prefer the move to SMD and find that it makes servicing boards easier in ways.
Agreed, when you drop below 0402 parts become a bit of a pain to handle but if you have access to the schems and boardview then it's fine.
SMD requires some different techniques but it's not explicitly harder, and I for one am happy to no longer be flipping boards 100 times, bending component legs and trying to desolder parts with a bunch of pins without damaging the PCB.

Re:Good by geekmux · 2017-02-25 23:55 · Score: 1

Yes it is. If you own the item, then all of the rights of ownership are to be afforded to you. You get to do with it as you please, and that includes repairing it.

It's a derived right, to be sure, but it is a right, nonetheless.

Wake up as to what is happening today. From cell phones to SaaS, the concept of true ownership is becoming extinct.

Once cars become autonomous, it will be "too dangerous" to allow Joe Mechanic to work on one. Autonomous taxi service vehicles will be owned by a corporation for the same reason.

Computers are already become non-serviceable devices (e.g. New Macbook Pro sealed and soldered case design), so the argument of repair has become moot.

Whether it's an bubble-wrapped version of liability, damage to sensitive designs, or merely attempts to prevent "hacking", traditional ownership will continue to die off, in favor of Greed.

And I strongly doubt there's anything that anyone is going to be able to do to stop it.

Re:Lease model work around? by geekmux · 2017-02-26 00:03 · Score: 1

I would honestly be happy to trade able-to-repair for free-repair rules on a lot of things that I am just not competent or equipped to repair with or without a manual.

You are failing to see the big picture here. The things you do know how to repair, or maybe even make a living from doing, will also be attacked.

It won't be a "lot of things". It will slowly become every fucking thing once every other market sees the profit margins enjoyed by industries who have lobbied and won.

And giving away the console would merely result in a price increase of every game by 30%, proving what has always been true; nothing is free.

Re:Why cant these companies by Opportunist · 2017-02-26 00:04 · Score: 1

Then I guess their business model is wrong.

A business model that needs laws to prop it up is broken.

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We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.

Reduce, Reuse, Recycle [but not Repair] by nukenerd · 2017-02-26 01:14 · Score: 1

The US Government (the UK's too) says "Reduce, Reuse, Recycle" to save the planet.

Conspicuous by its absence is "Repair", despite the fact that it would have made a nice 4th "R". A lot of the problem is that politicians are the sort of people (PPE graduates mostly) who have never repaired anything in their lives and regard repairing as doing something dodgy and disreputable

This is how politicians see DiY repairs

Re:Reduce, Reuse, Recycle [but not Repair] by Neuronwelder · 2017-02-26 06:27 · Score: 1

Corporations don't agree with rules.
Re:Reduce, Reuse, Recycle [but not Repair] by tepples · 2017-02-26 12:39 · Score: 1

Repair is part of Reuse.

Re:Terrible Idea by Lumpy · 2017-02-26 01:15 · Score: 1

Ebay always sides with the buyer, open the case and ebay will simply refund the money paid if returning the item is too difficult. in international cases from china ebay wil even say, "here is your money, keep the item" because if the auction is marked "no returns" that means that the seller does not want it back for any reason at all even damaged so the buyer can get a refund and keep the item.

If he did not open a case with ebay then he is either very stupid or just started using ebay.

--
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.

Re:do you want $100+ oil changes at the dealer shi by Lumpy · 2017-02-26 01:20 · Score: 1

Anyone that owns a performance car has been paying $100 oil changes at even a quickie lube for a while now. MY dealer oil changes are $160.00 If I buy the oil and filter myself it comes out to be $65.00 to do it in the driveway.

I'm guessing that you have not owned a car and taken it in for an oil change cince 1980? Even my Honda Civic was $70 for an oil change just yesterday at a Valvoline quick lube.

--
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.

Re:Lease model work around? by nukenerd · 2017-02-26 01:21 · Score: 1

I would honestly be happy to trade able-to-repair for free-repair rules on a lot of things that I am just not competent or equipped to repair with or without a manual.

It would not be "free", it would be in the cost of the lease. Hiring/leasing things more than occasionally costs far more than owning them, unless you are the sort of person who is forever busting things and cannot repair them (which characteristics usually go together). The leaser also controls what you get, which in the case of IT equipment will include adverts constantly stuffed down your throat (to "enrich" your experinece).

Re:xWare reverting by nukenerd · 2017-02-26 01:29 · Score: 1

Since this would require 2 copies of the OS and firmware to be stored in the unit (which will have to be stored somewhere that won't be overwritten accidentally), this will just bump the price up.

Of course it does not have to be stored in the unit. In any case storage is cheap, an my laptop does have a restore/repair partition as it happens.

This is a technical site you are posting to. Don't insult our intelligence.

Re:Terrible Idea by nukenerd · 2017-02-26 01:50 · Score: 1

This is a TERRIBLE IDEA!..... the manufacturer will close all authorized service in that state. Require shipping the device out of state for repair. They could go as far as requiring shipping out of the US for repair.

What BS. There will always be a proportion of the population who will be prepared to pay more for an authorised dealer repair. I have a top-of-the range Pentax camera needing repair. In the UK there is no restriction on anyone repairing a camera but I still took it to a Pentax authorised repairer. But I repair my own cars and computers.

There are some good reasons why an authorised repairer should cost more than an unauthorised one, such as having attended the manufacturer's training course. There are also some no-good reasons : I approaced an "authorised repairer" for my phone (listed as such on the phone maker's website) and it transpired that they were not even aware that they were one. I guess some previous manager had paid the maker for the right to say they were one, and there was nothing more to it than that.

I bought something. It stopped working. It had to be shipped to China for warranty repair. It wasn't expensive and I threw it out. Lesson learned.

WTF has that got to do with this discussion?

Re:Good by Anubis+IV · 2017-02-26 02:01 · Score: 2

It's not, or this wouldn't be a story.

You've got that backwards: it is, which is why there is a story. Lawmakers regularly pass new laws to make it explicitly clear that rights do, in fact, extend to particular areas. Our rights already exist there, but our ability to exercise them has been obstructed, and lawmakers are pushing back.

Manufacturers have gone to great lengths to prevent people from exercising their rights (e.g. licensing instead of selling, adding terms of usage that limit rights, etc., most of which have yet to be challenged heavily in court since the manufacturers are trying to avoid setting a precedent they don't like), and states are starting to push back, saying that those rights cannot be given up as a condition of sale or use.

it goes both ways by tomhath · 2017-02-26 02:12 · Score: 1

You, as the owner of the item, already have the right to repair it. Nobody is going to arrest you for opening it up and doing whatever you want.

The question is whether the manufacturer has the right to sell, or not sell, what they choose. That includes replacement parts and service manuals. It really is that simple.

Re:it goes both ways by currently_awake · 2017-02-26 03:31 · Score: 1

If you attempt to replace the HDD in your console they will claim moving the contents to the next drive is a copyright infringement. So yes they will arrest you.
Re:it goes both ways by SuricouRaven · 2017-02-26 07:28 · Score: 1

You are not worth the trouble of arresting. They'll just ban your console from the online services.
If you offer it as a service, and draw a lot of business, or sell a product to perform the move, then they might sue you. You'd likely end up driven out of business by legal costs, and might incur a debt for legal fees several times greater than your possible lifetime earnings, but you still won't be arrested.

sounds about right by Gravis+Zero · 2017-02-26 03:05 · Score: 1

The Entertainment Software Association, a trade organization that includes Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, as well as dozens of video game developers and publishers, is opposing a "right to repair" bill in Nebraska, which would give hardware manufacturers fewer rights to control the end-of-life of electronics that they have sold to their customers...

Typical Rick and his buddies must be against this. I'm just surprised that there aren't video game development studios against it. ;)

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Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.

Broken business models? by fyngyrz · 2017-02-26 03:37 · Score: 1

A business model that needs laws to prop it up is broken.

Copyright and Rights Licensing

Upon which the GPL is based, as well as just about the entire entertainment industry. It's difficult to imagine a studio spending tens or hundreds of millions on a production based on the hope that no one would copy and distribute the resulting product without seeing to it that they were compensated.

Patents

Upon which the drug industry, chip industry, etc., is based.

While these mechanisms are clearly not optimum, they do seem to benefit society in general. Certainly they are strong supporting factors for progress in the fields that they act as rights bulwarks for.

I really don't see that business models based on associated laws are inherently broken. Would you care to elaborate on your position?

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I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.

Re:Broken business models? by Opportunist · 2017-02-26 03:49 · Score: 1

Patents are really not the best argument for the case. Because the patent law (at least in its original idea) was not to enable the protection of innovation but to make innovators publish their findings. Before patent laws came along, the main way to protect your innovation was to keep it secret. Of course this meant that a lot of things had to be reinvented over and over because whoever invented something took the invention with him when he died. The idea was that if you publish it for everyone to see, you get protection for a time to use it exclusively. That also meant that people could take your innovation and invent something based on it. The whole "standing on the shoulders of giants" things.
The idea was good. Until it was perverted to protect non-innovations, ideas that have no innovative value but are only used to corner a market. From rounded edges to one-click-buy, things that should not be patentable in the first place.
So patents were less a means to protect the innovator and more one to keep innovations from being lost with the innovator.

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We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Re:Broken business models? by fyngyrz · 2017-02-26 04:01 · Score: 1

Nonetheless, patent protection is law, and innumerable business models depend upon it.
So basically what you are saying then, is that some business models that depend upon certain laws you object to are broken. Yes?

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I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Re:Broken business models? by Gr8Apes · 2017-02-26 05:45 · Score: 1

Originally, IIRC, only actual inventions (ie, concrete implementations) were patentable. A large part of that depended on the interpretation of the three folks tasked with approving patents.

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The cesspool just got a check and balance.

Pointless by stolidobserver · 2017-02-26 03:39 · Score: 1

You're just going to end up with proprietary chips and such all throughout every device with no way to source parts except the manufacturer. This is a no-win situation for the consumer.

Re:xWare reverting by drinkypoo · 2017-02-26 03:40 · Score: 1

Since this would require 2 copies of the OS and firmware to be stored in the unit (which will have to be stored somewhere that won't be overwritten accidentally), this will just bump the price up.

You know, it's pretty typical to have a restore-to-factory function on a phone. It's not an arduous requirement for a game console. And for the record, Microsoft consoles already have multiple copies of the BIOS, and always have.

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"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"

Not sticky: ethically obvious by fyngyrz · 2017-02-26 03:45 · Score: 3

That's a stickier problem in electronics because of drm and other various anti piracy measures. At what point does an antipiracy device become a hinderance to repair?

From the point where it is actually implemented, onwards.

Which is higher priority?

The rights of people who have done no wrong are (okay, should be) higher priority.

Ideally, create fair laws that describe the bounds of legitimate behavior. Punish people who break these laws. Don't do things to people who are not breaking the law that prevent them from doing legitimate things based on the idea that someone, somewhere, might break the law.

The problem with DRM (Digital Rights Management) as it is presently constituted, is that the only rights that are being managed are those of the publishers. The rights of the consumer are being roundly trampled. It's appalling, really.

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I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.

Re:Not sticky: ethically obvious by easyTree · 2017-02-26 18:32 · Score: 1

only rights that are being managed are those of the publishers. The rights of the consumer are being roundly trampled. It's appalling, really.
Setting aside the belief that we all follow the law because "it's the law", I find it somewhat ironic that the law is given gravitas by the threat of a punishment which may be meted-out to those daring to demonstrate free will in a direction contrary to "the law" - a punishment enacted by cross-discipline teams of individuals from the same group as those being victimised by these laws in the first place. Divide and conquer FTW.

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Requiem for the American Dream

Re:Machines are different by Enigma2175 · 2017-02-26 03:46 · Score: 1

If I want to defeat my own safety interlocks, that should be my right. The manufacturer should be able to say they won't honor the warranty if I enable the ability to shift into reverse at 50, but if it's my machine I should be able to do what I want with it.

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Enigma

Re:MS used to ban people for useing there own hdd' by Highdude702 · 2017-02-26 03:59 · Score: 1

very easy fix to your problem. Buy your own hdd.. install it and the xbox hdd in your pc, start linux, open command line 'dd if=path/to/xbox/drive of=path/of/non/shitty/ms/drive bs=1042' wait until it finishes.. Brand new 3tb fast microsoft hdd.

Re:MS used to ban people for useing there own hdd' by Highdude702 · 2017-02-26 04:00 · Score: 1

almost forgot. google how to truncate hdd afterwards to get full drive space.

Re:MS used to ban people for useing there own hdd' by Anonymous Coward · 2017-02-26 05:17 · Score: 1

The HDDs on the original 360 hardware was an external attachment that was purchased separately, and attached to the side of the console. You could open the attachment housing up and replace the HDD, but that would get you kicked off of Microsoft, without any modifications to the console.

Re:MS used to ban people for useing there own hdd' by Neuronwelder · 2017-02-26 05:35 · Score: 2

If they ban all that, then maybe we should be looking elsewhere for entertainment. Money deprivation is a great deterrent for abuse!!

Over my DEAD BODY. by MindPrison · 2017-02-26 05:36 · Score: 1

I've been a tinkerer all my life. I mess around with whatever hardware (and software) I want. I like to build stuff, and I even like to modify stuff to work better than their original intention.

now, while I completely understand the manufacturers wish to control sales of ALL their extra parts, original parts and even future parts they didn't even think of - the hardware they sell to YOU are YOURS - period!

The minute the law changes on this, you have gone from a democracy to a dictatorship sort of regime where you can't do as you wish with even your own property. I can even support their wish to forbid reverse engineering with malicious intent to run pirated games on their consoles - fully understandable! But still - the HARDWARE itself is the owners property, the one who purchased the hardware in the first place.

A solution to this could of course be to RENT you the hardware, that would fix their woes right there.

I'm old enough to remember these hardware debates for several decenniums, and they are equally hilarious (and also a bit scary) each time because it's all about controlling the "idiot" consumers. Most of the consumers don't give a hoot about meddling around with hardware and won't even notice. But people like me and my buddies (and probably a lot of the Slashdot originally intended audience) are DIY'ers that love to mess around with their hard-earned hardware, my Atari 2600 is only out of date when I say it is.

Remember the TV with the V-Chip? Remember how the microprocessors in the future Intel generation should be able to be "switched off" if they didn't have some "policing" software that the gov. could control in order to "prevent terrorism"?. Remember when Linux readers/users used to be seen as terrorists and vigilantes?

Anyone - who is capable of doing things on their own - are potential terrorists and troublemakers according to the powers that be, because you have the power to tinker, you have the power to make your opinion HEARD, you have the power to think, act, reverse engineer, modify, learn and educate on your own, in other words - you have POWERS that they don't want you to have.

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What this world is coming to - is for you and me to decide.

Re:Over my DEAD BODY. by Wolfrider · 2017-02-27 05:46 · Score: 1

You gotta FIGHT... for your RIGHT... to RE-PAIR!

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== WolfriderV6 == I'm willing to admit that *I just might* be wrong... Are you??

Re:Good by Neuronwelder · 2017-02-26 05:55 · Score: 1

So the same thing goes for a DVD, since you own it, after you purchased it? To me they are trying to expand disgusting regulations to the gaming industry.

Re:MS used to ban people for useing there own hdd' by phantomfive · 2017-02-26 06:06 · Score: 4, Informative

And the video game companies already lost the legal battle to prohibit people from using their trademarks as an unlock; if you make that the unlock, then you simultaneously give everyone permission to use it for that purpose.

Specifically, in the case Sega vs Accolade.

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"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."

Re:Good by Anubis+IV · 2017-02-26 06:20 · Score: 1

So the same thing goes for a DVD, since you own it, after you purchased it?

It does, hence the First-sale doctrine, which is the foundation on which things like the video rental industry are built. Now, your rights do have limits, of course, among them being that you can't infringe on their right of ownership by copying the DVDs as much as you want and selling the copies for a profit, given that they still own the rights to the content on that DVD, but you own the DVD itself, so you can do with it as you please.

If you can't open/fix it.. by LesserWeevil · 2017-02-26 06:36 · Score: 1

..you don't own it. Way past time for electronics makers to fess up to their 'engineered to fail in 2 years' and 'engineered to be made, not repaired' design rules. If you can't fix it, you really don't own it.

Re:MS used to ban people for useing there own hdd' by Anonymous Coward · 2017-02-26 06:52 · Score: 1

Microsoft still is the same pig with lipstick.

Don't you remember the AARD_code Microsoft embedded in Windows 3.1 to artificially generate errors and if needed with the change of a single byte kill the competence's OS DR-DOS and force the users to buy their MS-DOS instead?

This is no much different, except that this time Microsoft enforced it and got scot-free.

Re:MS used to ban people for useing there own hdd' by SuricouRaven · 2017-02-26 07:24 · Score: 4, Interesting

The Gameboy uses a similar trick - I mean the original one, the first. The firmware in the device (such as it is, it's really tiny) checks for the presence of a certain byte sequence, an encoded image. If the bytes match expectations, it gets displayed. If they aren't there, the firmware locks the device. That's why if you power it on without a cartridge in you see a scrolling blank box: The image is the Nintendo logo.

The intention was to use trademark law to prevent unlicensed publishers selling games: In order to make a game cartridge run on the Gameboy, it had to include the Nintendo logo, and thus any unlicensed publishers would get sued by Nintendo for trademark infringement. I understand that a later supreme court ruling determined that a trademark could not be considered a trademark if it was incorporated into a functional element, but that was post-Gameboy.

I'm guessing Microsoft pull the same trick. Perhaps it still works in some countries.

Re:xWare reverting by SuricouRaven · 2017-02-26 07:38 · Score: 1

That could be legally difficult. The firmware is sure to contain bits of code from all over the place, libraries licensed from many companies and covered by copyright and patents. It could take a team of lawyers months to negotiate a public release in an accessible form.

Re:xWare reverting by sir-gold · 2017-02-26 07:56 · Score: 2

It doesn't have to be open-source, or even in an unencrypted format.

How do you think smartphone OEMs provide firmware images, despite containing proprietary licensed code?

If Apple and Samsung can do it (legally) than anyone else can too.

Re:MS used to ban people for useing there own hdd' by JThundley · 2017-02-26 10:26 · Score: 1

I went out and bought one of the shitty USB memory sticks MS was hawking

You sure showed them!

FARM EQUIPMENT is why it will happen by bussdriver · 2017-02-26 10:55 · Score: 1

The ONLY reason this happened now and not decades ago is because chipped modern farm equipment has been causing huge problems. It has to do with the fact that farmers like to be able to fix their own stuff or have a local fix it or even mix parts. It is important to their business to be able to do things like this.

The reason it took a small number of farmers to get this to happen is because of how our political system places too much emphasis upon geography vs population. All that rural representation is mighty powerful... it's also a much less diverse area so the people there are more like minded and easier to represent.... and manipulate.

YES their will still be special chipped parts at unfair prices! but that fight will come later on and be lost only if the farmers get screwed over enough.

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Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news

Re:FARM EQUIPMENT is why it will happen by bussdriver · 2017-02-26 10:57 · Score: 1

correction: "there" will still be special chipped parts
Stupid autocorrect messed up my post! At least I didn't have a trackpad click and combine sentences together this time.

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Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news

Re:Why cant these companies by AHuxley · 2017-02-26 14:13 · Score: 1

The big fear is second hand desktop PC game sales.
If a user can repair a networked PC game account and then sell the game after a year. The boxed serial number that works after a second hand sale would endanger a direct sale of the same game.

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Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"

Re:MS used to ban people for useing there own hdd' by easyTree · 2017-02-26 18:19 · Score: 1

Perhaps someone will go after them retroactively to recover deliberate damages (substitute appropriate legal term) on behalf of all those gouged ?

I find it pretty distasteful that there's so little appreciation shown towards customers who appear to be seen as a necessary evil.

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Requiem for the American Dream

Mobile phones by golden_donkey · 2017-02-26 21:16 · Score: 1

Some time ago my phone slipped out of my pocket and fell on concrete. As I have the iPhone 5c, the plastic on one of the corners chipped away. I thought that it wasn't a big deal and I could replace the panel very easy. I ran a query on YouTube and saw a video, which was close to 2 hours with a very detailed explanation on how to disassemble and assemble. Needles to say - I decided that I don't have the patience to go through the whole process. My previous two phone were a Blackberry and a Lumia 525 none of them had this problem.

Re:MS used to ban people for useing there own hdd' by vyvepe · 2017-02-26 21:22 · Score: 1

For reference, the max bandwidth of USB2.0 is 480mbit, or about 60MB/sec.

60MB/sec includes low level protocol overhead. You cannot achieve that number. The actual maximum theoretical transfer speed for useful data is 53 MB/s. This can be further limited by the used HW/SW. If you have really good HW/SW then you should achieve at least 43 MB/s.

Re:Good by JesseMcDonald · 2017-02-27 07:00 · Score: 1

you can't infringe on their right of ownership by copying the DVDs

There is no such thing as a "right of ownership" over the content of the DVDs. The poorly named legal fiction of "copyright" is not a right at all, but merely a privilege; and like all other instances of legal privilege, it can only exist by infringing on the actual ownership rights of others.

The difference is obvious even to a cursory inspection. If copyright were about ownership then it wouldn't expire after a limited duration, or be subject to exceptions for fair use or (in some cases) compulsory licensing. More importantly, if copyright were treated as a right of ownership, then the liability for infringement would be determined by the extent to which the infringement diminished the copyright holder's ability to make use of the copyrighted content—which is, of course, impossible, since the creation of a new copy does not in any way diminish the utility of any existing copy. Copyright is not a right, it's an example of misguided social engineering run amok, a legal parasite intent on strangling its host.

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"The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat

Re:Good by Anubis+IV · 2017-02-27 07:39 · Score: 1

You're quite correct that it's not actually ownership and that I misspoke in saying it was. Thank you for that correction.

That said, the idea that it is a mere privilege instead of a right is demonstrably false, given that the Copyright Clause of the U.S. Constitution refers to this idea as an "exclusive right" secured to the author of the work. As you said, it only exists for a particular duration and there are other limitations placed on it, but it clearly is a right. You can quibble over whether we should call it "copyright" or not, but it's undeniable that the right exists, regardless of what we choose to call it.

Of course, the degree to which copyright succeeds at implementing that right is a subject for some debate. I agree that copyright laws (and other IP-related laws) have gotten out of control and are in desperate need of reform, but that's a separate topic over the oughtness of the situation, rather than its reality, and I honestly don't feel like hashing that topic out right now.

So, swinging back around to the quote you originally pulled from my previous comment, what I should have said was that you can't copy the DVD because doing so would infringe on their exclusive rights to the material they authored. Again, there's the question of whether or not things should be that way, but there's no denying that that's how things work today.

Hmm by Meski · 2017-02-27 15:23 · Score: 1

Removing and replacing surface-mounted electronics is not for the faint-hearted. But I'd like to see manuals and schematics come back.

Slashdot Mirror

The Videogame Industry Is Fighting 'Right To Repair' Laws (vice.com)

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