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Ask Slashdot: How Do You Explain 'Don't Improve My Software Syndrome' Or DIMSS?

dryriver writes: I am someone who likes to post improvement suggestions for different software tools I use on the internet. If I see a function in a software that doesn't work well for me or could work better for everyone else, I immediately post suggestions as to how that function could be improved and made to work better for everybody. A striking phenomenon I have come across in posting such suggestions is the sheer number of "why would you want that at all" or "nobody needs that" or "the software is fine as it is" type responses from software users. What is particularly puzzling is that its not the developers of the software rejecting the suggestions -- its users of the software that often react sourly to improvement suggestions that could, if implemented well, benefit a lot of people using the software in question. I have observed this happening online for years even for really good software feature/function improvement ideas that actually wound up being implemented. My question is -- what causes this behavior of software users on the internet? Why would a software user see a suggestion that would very likely benefit many other users of the software and object loudly to that suggestion, or even pretend that "the suggestion is a bad one?"

221 of 388 comments (clear)

  1. Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    You are just offering suggestions. Back it up with some actual fucking code. Otherwise you are simply one of the moaning masses wanting shit (usually for free).

    1. Re:Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by MightyYar · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yes, sucking resources away from other users is one reason.

      Others:
      - Your feature or changes almost certainly comes with added complexity and/or bugs. People don't like that.
      - People resist change just as a matter of being human. Any change needs to overcome this "static friction".
      - Admitting that you have a better way is also an admission that they've been doing it wrong (or less efficiently) the whole time. People don't like to do admit they are wrong.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    2. Re:Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by jellomizer · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Also scope creep in projects is always a risk. It isn't about not liking the idea but not adding into that particular product. Mostly because that one more feature can break a lot and cause more rework than a new product.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    3. Re:Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by skam240 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "People resist change just as a matter of being human. Any change needs to overcome this "static friction"."

      I'll tell you why I resist change in the software I use. Software upgrades often come with changes to the UI which often require that the user relearn how to use their software. There are few things i hate more then having to relearn how to use software features I was already using.

      --
      I ignore Anonymous Coward posts. If you want to discuss something, that's awesome. Log in.
    4. Re: Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Also maybe his suggestions are crap and the guy has an overinflated sense of his own opinion.

    5. Re:Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by The+Real+Dr+John · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Now most "improvements" to software are marketing crap. Added features are useless for most people, but sound good in advertising, or may appeal to people superficially. I've noticed that in many cases real functionality is replaced with junk (Windows 10 vs Windows 7 comes to mind). So when seasoned software users don't fawn all over new software "features" it may be more about experience than stubborn resistance from uppity users.

      --
      A brain is a terrible thing to waste... Mind? That's debatable.
    6. Re:Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by plopez · · Score: 1

      Just FYI, "Static Friction"== inertia

      --
      putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
    7. Re: Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by orasio · · Score: 1

      No mod points, but this is insightful.

    8. Re: Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Clutter too. You take a simple notepad like editor that does very little but exactly what I need. Then your propose adding a bunch of crap to it. now I need to find my word wrap option buried amongst 50 3 level deep file menus. Sure it does more, some stuff I even might want to do 1% of the time. But I'd rather the simple thing.

      On the dev side: sometimes things are just done. It solves the problem I intended to solve. I have more important and currently unsolved problems sorry I'm not going to design chrome wheels for last years model instead.

    9. Re:Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by arth1 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Just FYI, "Static Friction"== inertia

      No, it isn't. You're almost precisely wrong.
      Static friction is a threshold that has to be overcome before inertia becomes a factor, and includes Van der Waal forces, electrostatic forces and surface bonding. When you carefully walk up or drive down an icy hill, static friction is what prevents you from sliding. But once you start sliding, inertia is what prevents static friction from winning, even when you reach the bottom of the hill.

    10. Re:Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Or the bigger question is this: what makes the submitter so [overly?] confident that his suggestions are really all that useful?

    11. Re:Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 2

      Mod parent up. He wins the internet for today. This is exactly why I hate facebook and the entire concept of Continuous Bugs, er, Continuous Integration.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    12. Re:Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      almost precisely wrong

      Isn't that just an unnecessarily complex way to say "right"?

    13. Re: Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by ProzacPatient · · Score: 4, Funny

      Unless it is Blender since I have to relearn the interface anyway every time I use it

    14. Re: Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      a lot of time its like recreating the wheel but just with new rims.

    15. Re:Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 2

      > Software upgrades often come with changes to the UI which often require that the user relearn how to use their software

      And the old software and interfaces will go on needing to be supported. There's an amusing old XKCD cartoon about this.

                https://xkcd.com/1172/

    16. Re: Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by hackwrench · · Score: 1

      A gadfly actually paid Steve not to improve QB64 for regular regularâ users, including myself, so your argument doesn't make sense.

    17. Re:Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Your comment is interesting, but you could improve it with flashing pink letters and lots of emojis. I don't know why you're so opposed to all my good ideas.

    18. Re: Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by hackwrench · · Score: 1

      For me, 8 was a major trade off; 8.1 fixed most of the problems; 10 largely added Cortana- I still want 'switch user' back and miss 98s floating toolbars. Man, was that a great feature! You could write batch files to put shortcuts close at hand! Stability issues is what moved me to XP. 'Cept for that, 98 had everything, almost.

    19. Re:Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by arth1 · · Score: 1

      Isn't that just an unnecessarily complex way to say "right"?

      No, wrongness is a scale between dead right and dead wrong, and comprises all possible degrees between the two, including slightly wrong, mostly wrong and almost completely wrong.

      Then, there's "not even wrong", which is in a class by itself.

    20. Re: Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by hackwrench · · Score: 1

      It's a way of saying almost but not completely wrong.

    21. Re:Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by mlyle · · Score: 2

      I feel like you don't understand what CI is, or are taking potshots at a particularly extreme view of it (e.g. everyone checks in every day).

      Having a degree of automated build and lightweight test on every check-in can save you from getting stuck when there's breakage-on-breakage-on-breakage from putting multiple developers work together. In turn, by not getting stuck in integration hell at the end of the cycle, you can have more time for actually-robust-test and cleanup.

    22. Re: Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by John+Allsup · · Score: 1

      Terms I use here are 'cognitive load' and 'learning fatigue'. But as an example, you don't ditch a car or PC and buy another one simply for small marginal improvements. Our capacity to learn and adapt is a limited, albeit vast resource. The modern world, however, has expanded like a gas to fill the available learning capacity, and too few care about this, myopically focussing on one 'pet trademarked feature' after another.

      --
      John_Chalisque
    23. Re:Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by Carewolf · · Score: 1

      Yes, sucking resources away from other users is one reason.

      Others:
      - Your feature or changes almost certainly comes with added complexity and/or bugs. People don't like that.
      - People resist change just as a matter of being human. Any change needs to overcome this "static friction".
      - Admitting that you have a better way is also an admission that they've been doing it wrong (or less efficiently) the whole time. People don't like to do admit they are wrong.

      A variant of the last possibility: A suggestion for an improvement is also a suggestion that something is not good or perfect, so it sounds like an attack or accusation. Some fanboys will defend any weakness no matter what. Suggest Apple should reactivate the standard file transfer over USB like the first iPod had, and fanboys will defend Apple crippling all their devices and forcing them to use iTunes.

    24. Re:Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by folderol · · Score: 1

      Your second point is far and away the most significant of all comments.
      It applies right across the board - not just software, and indeed not just humans. Look what happens when you move the cat basket!

    25. Re: Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by Rei · · Score: 2

      That's unfair. Blender did undergo some big changes, but they were more than justified. It's not like they're just continuously changing it, or that the changes weren't warranted. I think Blender is a better tool today because of their changes.

      I have much more of an issue with GIMP. Pushing forth changes that the vast majority of the userbase hated (and railed against on the forum), and got a big "FU, if you don't like it, use another tool" response from the developers. Comments on the "can only save XCF through the save menu, changes to other formats pester you about "unsaved changes" even if you do export" design change were over 10:1 against. The brush size slider is a mess. Text editing is broken in about ten different ways, from it forgetting what font size you're typing in to not rendering full text deletion in some cases. The general quality has gone way downhill. Meanwhile, things that have supposedly been "in the works" for years, like higher bit-depth colour, seem further away than ever. Even if I didn't want to export to a higher bit depth, if I want to do a gaussian blur on a high-res image I need to do a combination of dithers and blurs because of the loss of precision at 8 bits per channel.

      Facebook is the classic example of terrible product evolution (particularly Messenger... have these people never heard of the concept of screen real estate?). I'd also like to zing Google for Google Maps. Today it's way slower, they took the very convenient full-length zoom bar out (and only put the tiny one in after user complaints), buttons with similar functionality are scattered out (e.g. satellite is on the bottom left, but landscape hidden in the menu top left), photo integration is terrible (no longer shows photos where they actually are, but in a giant "bar" on the bottom of the screen, opened by an ambiguous icon that looks like three different buttons, with lines that point to the map seemingly at random), make you zoom in twice as far to see the same amount of map information (ex. road labels), added icons to the upper right that have no connection to Maps at all just for "product consistency", and so on. And it's 2017, why is their landscape option still so terrible? Even little local companies' map services have vastly superior landscapes.

      --
      Very well; let this abomination unto the Lord begin!
    26. Re: Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That's unfair. Blender did undergo some big changes, but they were more than justified. It's not like they're just continuously changing it, or that the changes weren't warranted. I think Blender is a better tool today because of their changes.

      I think their point was that Blender's interface is so weird, that they constantly have to relearn it. And I agree with that. I've dabbled with various 3D software over the years, and found none more unintuitive than Blender. Even after reading the manual, it kept being weird, with for example right clicking doing something completely different than 99.9% of other software. I get that it is a complex, powerful tool, but if you need a manual to figure out basic things like zooming, panning and rotating, then your usability sucks. I still remember exploring Caligari TrueSpace many years ago, and it was so intuitive that I was creating stuff in no time without even having to open the help.

      Vi(m) is another one of those for me (yeah, I will burn at the stake now). I find that I forget key commands after a while of not using it. It's easy to look them up again, but it remains a weird interface (and I've used it intensively for several years in the past).

    27. Re:Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by MoarSauce123 · · Score: 1

      Sorry...posted as AC twice in this thread because /. can't keep a login active. Don't dismiss AC posts. I now logged in and a made up user name shows...does that make any difference? You still have no clue who I am.

    28. Re:Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by MoarSauce123 · · Score: 1

      Agreed! It all depends on how quickly the team can respond to failure. If a flaw is noticed by tests right away your can fix it and push a new build within minutes (any build should not take longer than 10 minutes!). CI also does not mean deploying it instantly to all users. The point of CI is to run your full set of tests on a regular basis rather than wait until a week before release date. You may be thinking of continuous deployment where any change that passed QA gets pushed to all users. That is also an option. Etsy deploys to production every 10 minutes, Amazon does it on average every 11 seconds. Key here is to detect and fix any issues quickly. If you one of the devs who think they ever only need to work on new features rather than fix bugs then neither CI nor CD is for you.

    29. Re:Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by MoarSauce123 · · Score: 1

      Do you know how these added features end up in most software? There are one or two potential customers asking for it and the business has to make a decision: either tell them no and not make the sale or add the feature and collect a check. Guess what business tend to do in 99.999% of the time!

    30. Re:Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by MoarSauce123 · · Score: 1

      Often times devs don't care what QA or internal resources have to say. I doubt that having irate customers is the better option. Devs should do customer support duty at least once a month. Nothing straightens out a dev as a complaining customer does. It also helps with understanding how customers use the app. In case of Apple, their design decisions are driven by creating a walled garden, an ecosystem that is under their control. The sole purpose is to steer user streams to more Apple products and services for the sake of getting the most return out of every sale. The motive here is corporate greed and not user experience.

    31. Re: Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You eat all your crayons in alphabetical order, don't you?

    32. Re:Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      You left out.
      Maybe it is not a better way after all.
      Maybe the effort to learn the new way of doing things is just too great for the benifit.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    33. Re:Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      This is a problem with the business side, which is that the businesses are unwilling to even offer a paid support option on older versions. I would happily pool with all of the other Windows 7 users to not be forced to migrate to a new platform in 2020. What would that actually cost? $50 per year?

    34. Re: Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by bobmajdakjr · · Score: 1

      also because a lot of people may have spent a lot of time working around various things and here comes no name joe wanting to bork it all up making them start over.

    35. Re: Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by GeorgeL.Rivera · · Score: 1

      Speaking for myself, I have experienced that improvements and enhancements often cone with deleterious code that cause unwanted and sometimes catastrophic changes in the operating system, ads, software bugs, the great its spyware, many other changes of mysterious origin every computer user has lost sleep over. The solution has always been, "Backup your your data often," but that is not the solution. Fundamental trust had been lost and to regain it the software industry must not only be devoted to marketing but to marketing software that delivers on its promises, including simpler EULA language that is less lengthy and that doesn't evade responsibility. The CIA's and NSA's admissions of global communications interception, mega data collection and storage, public official's cry for more internet security and monitoring, admissions by government officials for greater internet scrutiny through backdoors has discouraged the public's view of software enhancements and improvements discourages. Every other industry is held accountable for faulty products under Consumer Protection Laws. A compelled EULA undermines consumer confidence and repeated failures to quickly address software's shortcomings compound the public's loss of faith. A broad unwillingness to tamper with something that finally works well despite new promises of increased security, and features falls on deaf ears. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

    36. Re:Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by nasch · · Score: 1

      Asimov expounded on that idea: http://chem.tufts.edu/answersi...

    37. Re:Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      I was going to joke that maybe he got a negative reaction because adding emoji support to LaTeX was a bad idea.

      But it seems somebody thought it was a good idea.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    38. Re:Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Your post reminds me of a joke that used to go round usenet as a response to pie-in-the-sky ideas. It was like a form with a load of reasons why something wouldn't work. The unions won't allow it, the government won't allow it, IBM won't allow it. You ticked the ones that applied.

      Damned if I can find the thing now.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    39. Re: Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      It's called a joke. Possibly inspired by this: http://www.goodreads.com/quote...

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    40. Re: Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Hmm. Are you talking about gedit?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    41. Re:Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      I remember that form! I'm not sure what was more annoying, scrolling past the form at 9600 baud or the post that provoked the response.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    42. Re:Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by Rophuine · · Score: 1

      Finding good engineers is hard. Growing teams is hard. Growing a company in order to support old software comes with all sorts of extra costs: more admin/HR staff, more office space. It's not just a case of "hey we have an extra hundred million bucks, look, we can support an old version for longer now!"

      Companies make a call about balancing supporting old versions with what else they can do - and at some point, older versions are gonna get dumped no matter what.

    43. Re:Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      I was more looking at how the teams and companies who claim to champion CI, like facebook and slashdot, have a tendency to skip beta testing altogether in abuse of their customers.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    44. Re:Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      I'm thinking more of companies like facebook and slashdot which seem to skip the QA altogether and just let the users find the bugs, then never repair them.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    45. Re: Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      Sorry , I'm from Oregon....and facebook is still continuous bugs. As is slashdot.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    46. Re:Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      And even unchecking "use slashboxes", which this feature was originally, does nothing. Thus my sig line.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    47. Re:Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by syntotic · · Score: 1

      That is simplistic, half of Antiquity was self invited to Compute then decided they dislike Computing and its implications for their lifestyles. So their retaliation was to destabilize programmers and companies and convince them that bad some times is a good thing. Or, if you like it, Church does not like perfection but computer works aspire to be PER-FECT and programmers can boas of achieving PER-FECT works. But if you will have webmasters constantly monitoring to see if your usage particularly matches some criterion they can prey on, why risk an update? If you can see decades pass by and the same base errors ARE STILL THERE, why bother updating? If you found a pattern of usage that suits you but hostile programmers may completely obliterate your tools and force you into other manners, why try the new version? If you end up giving things for free to eventually **monetize**, why follow the please-the-market mechanisms? And worse of all: if you do suspect an interloped made it into the code base and you might see your efforts ruined by the next update... how do you protect your present installation? Windows is super example. Android shows the same problems Windows has always had. Even games get ruined with advanced new control interfaces and glitches/bugs/exploits while the basic algorithms are the same throughout the whole genre. Change one RNG you know into something well programmed and the game may dissappear altogether... Consider this discussion as a consequence of an undeclared or mediatized Cyber-war beyond online.

    48. Re:Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by Big+Hairy+Ian · · Score: 1

      In my experience the only time suggestions from end users elicit that kind of response is when the suggestion for something totally alien to what the project is designed for like somebody asking Ferrari to add a tow-bar option so that I can hitch up my trailer.

      --

      Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.

    49. Re:Becaue you aren't offering to do the work. by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Finding good engineers that want to work at supporting old versions is harder than finding good engineers that want to make new stuff.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  2. Do you code? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    if you don't code yourself, then you probably don't have any idea how much time and effort is required to implement your 'improvements', and/or perhaps your suggestions really aren't very good to start with, therefore annoying the dev, who spend perhaps months or years creating his end product, only to have some random guy from the Internets post 'suggestions' that come off as criticism.

    1. Re:Do you code? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      While I do agree with you, the poster did say "other users", not the developers. Thus, I'm not sure it's implementation complexity that's the issue.

    2. Re:Do you code? by Qzukk · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Also you have interface complexity. Adding these features requires some way to use the features, possibly including configuration options, menu items, hotkeys and so on. Prior to the Ribbon, Microsoft tried to fix this in Word by hiding all the menu items you had not used yet, so you'd never know those features were there to be used. My boss constantly asks me to remove menu items and "simplify" but he never has any answers on where he thinks users should go to access those features if they're no longer in the menu. Relevant Dilbert.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    3. Re:Do you code? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You didn't even finish reading the fucking summary before going off. Let me help you:

      What is particularly puzzling is that its not the developers of the software rejecting the suggestions -- its users of the software that often react sourly to improvement suggestions

      My apologies if you meant that tongue-in-cheek.

    4. Re:Do you code? by Zmobie · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That is a pretty bad assumption and very out of touch with actual development. If something really isn't worth it or would take too much time, I simply tell people that or completely ignore the suggestion if its too outrageous. However, that doesn't mean I want the users to shut up and just let daddy developer do whatever I want. I want feedback because I can't possible test everything, I can't predict all the trends for usage, and any half decent developer loves to see people using their software to accomplish things they never even envisioned when it was written (not hacking it per se, but finding use cases we hadn't thought of yet).

      In fact, it is more ridiculous for the users to just immediately jump on and start bashing ideas when they have no idea how to actually engineer it or how much time it would take to implement that feature. If someone actually writes real software (not some garbage scipts they threw together either) and wants to comment concerns that is more in line, but even then, just because I write software doesn't mean I know how all software is designed... If a developer starts asking for opinions on it, different story, but people jumping all over it when THEY don't write code is much more ridiculous in my opinion.

      Ideas don't cost me shit. Again, if I don't like doesn't mean I have to implement it (unless there is a contract, but that is a different ballgame then what were talking about). I'll take a glut of stupid suggestions with a few good ones over nothing at all any day.

    5. Re: Do you code? by hackwrench · · Score: 1

      he meant users without any real degree of depth.

    6. Re: Do you code? by MoarSauce123 · · Score: 1

      What do you do when there are no requirements or the requirements are one and a half vague bullet points? This is more and more the case. The solution here is to build something and iterate over it based on user feedback. That is difficult when dismissing user feedback.

    7. Re:Do you code? by MoarSauce123 · · Score: 2

      Alternative is to hire an analyst that comes up with ideas and suggestions. User feedback is free product analysis and studies have shown that only a third of people who have a reason to complain actually do. Anyone who goes through the trouble to seek involvement is interested in your app and hasn't dismissed it already. Taking that input not seriously is a huge mistake! Make the users happy, especially when they pay for your salary.

    8. Re:Do you code? by PhunkySchtuff · · Score: 2

      if you don't code yourself, then you probably don't have any idea how much time and effort is required to implement your 'improvements', and/or perhaps your suggestions really aren't very good to start with, therefore annoying the dev, who spend perhaps months or years creating his end product, only to have some random guy from the Internets post 'suggestions' that come off as criticism.

      This is largely irrelevant to the OP's question - do the other users who are outright rejecting the idea of adding new features code? Do they touch the codebase for the app in question? All end-user feedback is useful at some level, it's useful for developers to know how people are using their software and even if just one report isn't enough motivation to add a new feature, if this is requested a number of times it might point to worthwhile future development, or changing the workflow in the software to accomodate the way the software is used by other people.

      Asking for a new feature or function in software isn't criticism - in fact, it's the complete opposite. It's showing the developer that you use the software enough to care to provide feedback and you're thinking about ways that the software could potentially be even more useful.

  3. Complexity by donour · · Score: 1

    You are most likely suggesting something that will increase the complexity of the project.

    1. Re:Complexity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      More than that, almost everyone knows these days that when some new feature gets added to software, some new bug also almost always gets added --and who wants *that*?

    2. Re:Complexity by Zmobie · · Score: 2

      Ha! If adding a few features makes the software that much worse that just means you can figure out that developer sucks a lot faster (and the code you were already using probably sucks too and is full of holes you just don't know about yet). I'll admit, I am not the biggest fan of rapid release models because of stability issues and it puts more value on unit testing over system testing which can be dangerous, but adding small feature sets should not make the software that much buggier if someone actually does it well.

  4. Pretty obvious by redmid17 · · Score: 2

    One of two very very scenarios arises in my mind:

    1) The person(s) does not want the software to change at all because they are comfortable with how it works. This is seen all the time when companies are pushing upgrades to a new version of Windows or Office or *insert a different product*
    2) Your suggestions are really not all that useful and are rightfully be lambasted

    1. Re:Pretty obvious by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think it's simpler.

      Users invested time figuring out how the software works and how to fit a workflow around it. That time wasn't free and they are concerned your changes will require changes to their workflow and possibly re-learning parts of the software which now "just works" for them.

      And your changes are not necessarily good. They are probably change for the sake of change just because you don't like an extra button click here, or your workflow is different to someone else's.

    2. Re:Pretty obvious by tomhath · · Score: 1

      Your two scenarios are really the same thing, but I agree with your point.

      All too often people suggest adding something that's not relevant to the application, is already there, or just wouldn't be useful.

    3. Re:Pretty obvious by redmid17 · · Score: 1

      They really aren't similar. There are definitely ways to improve a program that mess with people's productivity and comfort, real or perceived on both parts. Either way, people don't like changing software. I shouldn't even have to point that out. It's as given as water being wet.

      That said, honestly I'm sure it's the latter. "Hey wouldn't this be useful?" kinda thinking is usually "God no it's a terrible idea" that only gets shot down when someone else hears it.

    4. Re:Pretty obvious by arth1 · · Score: 2

      All too often people suggest adding something that's not relevant to the application, is already there, or just wouldn't be useful.

      Or, in the Unix/Linux world, functionality that's already well covered by existing tools, and adding it will only introduce incompatibilities and a subset of what the dedicated tools already do.
      Examples include editors that won't do calls to standard commands like sort, date and sendmail, but instead implement their own limited versions that bloat the code, lack functionality, and introduce bugs.

      Too many programs try to include the kitchen sink. I don't want that. I want tools that do just one thing, but do it exceedingly well. A spork with built-in flashlight is not what you should aim for.

    5. Re:Pretty obvious by Zmobie · · Score: 1

      This is a much nicer way of saying people don't like change. There are merits to your comment, but I also feel like if everyone isn't Apple, or what have you, and lets your use older revisions, who the fuck cares? Now, there is more to it if you are forced to update to the newest revision all the time, but even then, people need to accept to some degree the software is GOING to change and not just stubbornly yell down anything that changes the software in any way (which is what is sounds like the OP is talking about).

      Hell, one of the biggest differences/advantages in software engineering vs. other types of engineering is we can change stuff quickly and without near the same impact. I once worked with a mechanical engineer that fucked up the hole punches on several thousand feet of conveyor by only about 1/2 inch, guess how costly that was? Meanwhile, it might suck if my report calculation was slightly off, but I can update my software in a mater of minutes and it barely costs anything.

    6. Re:Pretty obvious by quantumphaze · · Score: 2

      Everyone in this entire comments section seems to be hell-bent certain that this mystery suggestion was to add something like the MS Office ribbon bar to systemd-emacsd.

      Let's take a far simpler feature example, like when the tar utility added the xz compression flag -J. It didn't ruin everyone's work-flows. Backup scripts running since 1970 were not affected since good old pipes still work. The code was minimally increased to add the option that made the call to the external utility.

      What if the poster suggested that tar add support for lz4 via a long opt --lz4?

    7. Re:Pretty obvious by Carewolf · · Score: 3, Insightful

      One of two very very scenarios arises in my mind:

      1) The person(s) does not want the software to change at all because they are comfortable with how it works. This is seen all the time when companies are pushing upgrades to a new version of Windows or Office or *insert a different product*

      2) Your suggestions are really not all that useful and are rightfully be lambasted

      I much more commonly see:

      3) Your suggestion sounds like an attack, and fans will automatically defend what they like.

    8. Re:Pretty obvious by MoarSauce123 · · Score: 2

      Because on a discussion board language is THE tool. If a poster cannot master the tool where else did she or he take shortcuts? Do I think less of a badly written post? Yes. Do I bother writing a comment about the linguistic flaws? No. My comment won't change that...and yes, I may come across as a hypocrite right now. ;)

    9. Re:Pretty obvious by MoarSauce123 · · Score: 1

      Maybe documentation and training for the standard commands is missing? Maybe, but I doubt that is the case for sendmail....I know about it existence and I neither code nor use Linux regularly.

    10. Re:Pretty obvious by Hognoxious · · Score: 2

      "We've found by experience that people who are careless and sloppy writers are usually also careless and sloppy at thinking and coding (often enough to bet on, anyway). "

      http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/s...

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  5. There's a saying in the software industry~ by bob8766 · · Score: 1

    Change is bad, unless it's great.

    1. Re:There's a saying in the software industry~ by justthinkit · · Score: 2

      It is a good saying, but could use some elaboration.

      Most change is bad. Because most have not thought through all the ramifications, and/or have not implemented the change well.

      Most change is bad, because most of us have major weaknesses and blindspots. Adding someone else to the design team usually doesn't help, because what you gain with a second pair of eyes and second brain is countered by a second set of major weaknesses and blindspots. Get a group involved, and your project is totally doomed.

      I think "insanely great" was a good phrase. To do something great was insanely difficult, took insane amounts of thought and effort and will. And when it all came together, it was ...insanely great.

      A bridge is constrained. It rarely gets changed. It just works. Software is only partially constrained and so how we choose to work around/with constraints varies by person, by company, by decade, etc. The tyranny of choice works against good design. Hence my saying "An engineer is an artist with constraints."

      The software industry has a conflict of interest. If they helped us all implement great stuff everywhere, we wouldn't come around every year with a fresh stack of money. So they implement code monstrosities, standards clusterfzcks, organizing bodies designed to bury bodies, and all while aspiring to Comcastic levels of monopoly, rather than succeeding on their merits. Embrace, extend, extinguish doesn't go down well with end users. Embrace, extend, improve forever (i.e. kaizen) would...but is rarely done. And when it is done, it becomes invisible.

      Invisible software gets so good, that there are few if any bugs. It automates everything involved, so no one curses it. It saves time and manpower so management is happy. But the overall effect of all three of these effects is for people to stop thinking about it. It dies, as a "project", from working too well.

      Change, i.e. churn, or turns, or flips, is necessary to people who want to get paid steadily. Solving problems is thankless work. End users are usually not sophisticated enough to appreciate it, and managers hate it because it makes them look bad (or not needed).

      Life sucks, because we are all, for the most part, unenlightened. Selfish. Out for ourselves. Dog eat dog.

      Yet find a place where you can do great things...and then do them...and you will be back on the unemployment line.

      So ignorance is bliss. Ignorance of our own weaknesses will increase ourhappiness.

      So, do you want happiness, or better stuff?

      --
      I come here for the love
  6. Because sometimes 'improvements' worsen things by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Sometimes what is an improvement to you is worsening for someone else. E.g. the australis redesign of firefox, was very highly disliked by many people. Some people are happy with the status quo and don't need a new "modern" re-do of their GUI or whatever.

  7. Frog wanker by Hognoxious · · Score: 1, Funny

    If you didn't write crap like "a software" people might take you & your ideas more seriously.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    1. Re: Frog wanker by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The article writer is Dawn Levy

      "Dawn Levy is a science writer at Oak Ridge National Laboratory, one of the Department of Energy's 17 National Laboratories. She covers physics, chemistry and materials science."

      She is neither a physicist, a chemist, or a materials scientist. She is a writer responsible for communications. And she is definitely not in the computer field.
      And while she is undoubtedly smart enough to write about science, her role doesn't require her to be smart enough to be able to _do_ science.

      Good scientists and programmers tend to be precisionist in their writing about their fields. Science writers (IMHO) much less so.

    2. Re: Frog wanker by johanw · · Score: 1

      It means probably that his native language is not a western language. Maybe Asian?

    3. Re: Frog wanker by PPH · · Score: 1

      She is a writer responsible for communications.

      A writer AT Oak Ridge. Which means she probably quoted the jargon in use at ORNL by it's scientists pretty accurately. It's not like she is a general media reporter that just came in and screwed something up.

      Anecdote: I used to work in an aviation electrical power systems group when I was a fresh-faced kid out of college. We were producing a specification for the digital controls for an aircraft electrical system. The spec (which I was reading) didn't use the conventions that many control systems engineers used when defining PID software. When I asked about this, one of my older colleagues pointed out that this was a convention peculiar to power systems. And although it risked greater errors at the coding level (getting plus and minus signs reversed with the result of an unstable system), future power system people understood it and it would make their job of reading the systems block diagrams easier. And the other reason for staying with this odd convention: It weeded out the software developers who were more likely to have a hissy fit if things didn't go their way. In the end, we hired a really smart and capable Vietnamese CS guy who did an excellent job on the controller s/w.

      The lesson I took away from this was that there is really no great mystery why the USA is full of basement dwelling sperglords who can code but can't get along in broader industries while those businesses are busy importing H-1B workers.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    4. Re: Frog wanker by Megol · · Score: 1

      I think you underestimate the skills of a good communicator and I assume that being employed as a science writer at Oak Ridge she is indeed a good communicator - otherwise they'd have hired someone else. It is also likely* the scientists have read not only the finished text but also in progress versions and have corrected any wrong usage of words and descriptions. Because that's part of being a good tech writer.

      (* I have a tendency to use weak terms read this as: almost certainly 100% sure)

  8. It's subjective by MrKrillls · · Score: 1

    What I think may be an improvement may look to someone else to be a bad thing.

    --
    Don't step on the baby.
  9. Please stop screwing with it syndrome.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Many people are very tired of their software constantly changing and shifting for no good reason. Oblig car analogy: suppose that every night when you get home, park your car and go inside there was a good chance some random mechanic would come along and start tinkering - moving the controls around, swapping out the seats, adding go-fast stripes (then removing them), maybe switching the engine or making it an automatic. It would get old really, really quickly.

    That's what it feels like sometimes with software. See for example Firefox over the last few years: features coming and going for no apparent reasoning, random changes, just generally irritating. It's enough to give you a case of PSSWIS.

    1. Re:Please stop screwing with it syndrome.... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      When I took my car over to Sear's to get new tires a few years ago, I was told that I had a oil leak from the drain plug and the mechanic showed me it was the crimped foil gasket. I recently had my oil changed by Jiffy Lube. I drove over to Jiffy Lube, they took a look at it and informed me that the new drain plug got installed wrong. I asked them, "What new drain plug?" They couldn't explain to me how or why I got a new drain plug.

    2. Re:Please stop screwing with it syndrome.... by MoarSauce123 · · Score: 1

      Mozilla is a special bunch. I wanted to get more involved in their team as a volunteer, but folks like Asa Dotzler and other devs bent over backwards to respond with personal insults to diss my questions. At that point I did not even propose anything because I first needed to understand why features worked the way they did. If they spent as much effort on fixing the UI (essentially rolling it back to how it was in version 3) as they did on insulting me and others Firefox would have a much bigger market share. In all fairness, many other FOSS projects suffer from the same problem. The devs write the apps to satisfy their egos, not to grow user share. The changes are made solely because they found a new interest in the latest fad, not because it actually improves function or usability. There are exceptions, most notably the folks at Moonchild Productions. I made a few suggestions in the past and they considered some and clearly explained the flaws in others. In a few cases we still disagreed, but I respect their position because they gave several reasons. Overall, they are the most pleasant bunch I ever interacted with in the FOSS world.

    3. Re:Please stop screwing with it syndrome.... by JoeDuncan · · Score: 1
      THIS^^^ *SO MUCH* THIS!!!

      Software changing under me for idiotic reasons JUST after I have finished tweaking my workflow exactly the way I want it; is the NUMBER ONE reason I no longer use open-source software for production work at all. Also why I disable very goddamn "auto-update" feature out there...

  10. Reminds me of this one: by MavEtJu · · Score: 2

    The helpdesk closes the issue as "User error".
    The engineer closes the issue as "Showed documentation".
    The senior engineer opens an "Usability issue".

    --
    bash$ :(){ :|:&};:
    1. Re:Reminds me of this one: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      How about this one?

      User bug report, description: Your cow is broken. The milk is difficult to extract and tastes funny.
      Issue status, resolved: This behavior is by design. The "cow" is a bull.

  11. why by bugs2squash · · Score: 2

    In good faith people can ask why you would want such a change, I don't see how that is being negative.

    --
    Nullius in verba
  12. Easy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Users like their software to work. Most software only barely does, and every upgrade risks catastrophic regressions sold as "improvement".

    As a current example, any website you use regularly might see an "upgrade"* causing it to no longer work with your browser, so you get to upgrade. Then you find your browser is no longer supported on your operating system, forcing you to apply lots of patches, or outright upgrade. Or both. Perhaps you now must use a 64bit version and since your hardware wasn't 64bit yet, you need to up grade the hardware. So simply trying to use a website that used to work peachy fine can easily cause you a week's work or more, and that's when you're tech savvy enough to do it all yourself.

    Yes, you and plenty readers here will likely run cutting-edge systems. Random users, a much larger pool, probably will not. We tend to blame them for running "insecure" software, but really, the blame for the insecurity of the software squarely lies with the developers. Who choose to chase new features instead.

    Honestly, it's the latter group, the people that prefer all that fancy tech to "just work", that is currently sorely underserved. Even by the big software vendors, perhaps especially by the big software vendors, that have "no training needed" and "it will just work" as the core of their marketeering.

    * Perhaps not even in the website itself, but one of the many javascript libraries from elsewhere it depends upon! But likewise we saw several rounds of this with the "upgrade" to "HTML5", where even sites offering content no more fancy than text and some pictures suddenly stop working in older browsers for no other reason than that they like to chase what they imagine counts for modernity.

    1. Re:Easy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      a website does not work? heh I just laugh my way to the next website lol...

    2. Re:Easy by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2

      On the flip side, as a developer I don't want the hassle of supporting every old, weird confusion forever just to keep the two people in the world who use it happy. Especially if it's open source and I'm doing it in my free time.

      If you want that kind of longevity, find some commercial vendor who offers it, or pay someone to support you. It sucks but you can't expect people to work for free for you.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    3. Re:Easy by jafiwam · · Score: 1

      HTML5 is one of the few efficient ways of making a web site ADA accessible. A "requirement" now because ambulance chasing lawyers are starting lawsuits to get settlements if the site is not.

      And WHY THE FUCK is the account box floating fixed over half the FUCKIGN CONTENT here now? Hey, idiots at Slashdot, I KNOW WHAT MY ACCOUNT NAME IS I don't need the FUCKING BOX FLOATING over the content I came to read.

  13. Obligatory XKCD by hudsucker · · Score: 5, Funny

    Because every change breaks someone's workflow. https://xkcd.com/1172/

    1. Re:Obligatory XKCD by queazocotal · · Score: 2

      The problem is easily lampooned.
      A major problem is that devs are computer literate.
      They are likely to understand an explicit list changing to a little downwards pointing arrow in a new version, where the arrow simply needs clicked to expose the list.

      Now try explaining this change over the phone to a 90 year old, who's just about coping with the existing interface.
      'Trivial' changes often aren't.

  14. Re:People hate change. by murdocj · · Score: 4, Insightful

    People hate useless change. People hate change that makes their lives harder. People hate "here's a new UI, take time off from the work you need to get done in order to learn it".

  15. Facebook by fiannaFailMan · · Score: 1

    Version 1 - "Cool"
    Version 2 - "WTF? Why are you doing this? I loved version 1! I'm going to Orkut!"
    Version 3 - "WTF? Why are you doing this? I loved version 2! I'm going to MySpace!"
    Version 4 - "WTF? Why are you doing this? I loved version 3! I'm going to Ebo!" (or whatever that black & white social network was called)
    Etc..

    --
    Drill baby drill - on Mars
    1. Re:Facebook by mr_mischief · · Score: 1

      Ello? It's rebranding itself as a place to follow visual artists. It's not bad as a photography, painting, drawing, and digital graphics gallery. It was never very useful as a general social network.

    2. Re:Facebook by Stormwatch · · Score: 1

      I actually liked Orkut because it was built around communities rather than people. It was like a collection of subject-specific message boards.

    3. Re:Facebook by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It was like a collection of subject-specific message boards.

      So it was like Usenet.

    4. Re:Facebook by Stormwatch · · Score: 2

      Imagine Usenet, only full of semiliterate Brazilians and Indians. What a glorious clusterfuck that was.

  16. No thanks! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    In my 40 years of using software I have only very rarely noticed that an upgrade actually improves software. Usually, it is slower, and harder to use. No thanks!

  17. Fuck deleting old shit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    "Fuck new shit" is perfectly rational. When features start to creep, the idea that a redesign will follow that fucks up your old workflow is a very real concern.

  18. Stability by xski · · Score: 5, Insightful
    This may well come as a complete shock to many of those involved in the production and development of software.

    But its true, so I'm going to lay it on you.

    Most people do not use software for the sake of using software.

    I Know. I can hear you cry and see your tears. Get over it.

    Strange as it seems, they use software to get stuff done. Its a tool. They learn the tool to get stuff done. They setup up processes that incorporate the use of those tools to get even more stuff done. And then *poof*... iPhones! Woo!

    If you're constantly changing the tool, you're constantly changing the way people have to get their stuff done and constantly upsetting the process and increasing the cost of getting stuff done.

    Try this for a mantra:

    What do we Want?
    Gradual Change!
    When do we want it?
    IN DUE COURSE!

    Change is good, I'm on board. But take care how you fuck things up in the name of progress. Understand that yes, in some peoples view your wonderful improvement is fucking things up, and they are not in error . That doesn't mean your idea isn't great, it just means you probably haven't thought it through well enough. That said...

    Usually people tossing out these ideas have little idea what they're talking about, with respect to what it would take to achieve.

    OK, this is turning into recreational bitching (turning into?).

    I have two shorter answers to this question, one polite, one less so

    1. Have some consideration for others.
    2. Stop being so fucking selfish
    1. Re:Stability by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      I think your whole comment, including its snarky-ass tone, is complete bullshit. It doesn't actually address the poster's complaint in any way. You can add functionality to a tool without affecting people's workflow in many cases. It's when you change the way some existing feature behaves (or take it out) that you get the things you are talking about. And then to top it off, you close with this shit as if it were insightful:

      Have some consideration for others.
              Stop being so fucking selfish

      Well, turn that right back around on the people who suggest that a piece of software doesn't need new features because they don't need them.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  19. It's all in the way you pitch it... by inflex · · Score: 1

    When you decide to express your personal brilliance to the developer, take the time to word it in such a way that it doesn't come across as condescending or undermining. Not to say that developers are all precious snow-flakes, but if the feature request is important to you then learning how to present it goes a long way towards gaining an outcome that you like, as with pretty much every other area in life when it comes to trying to get something done by other people.

    Beautiful pitches like "...unless it has feature X it's not going to be considered professional", or "... I like your software but it would be better if ..." and you wonder why there's so much push-back. If you don't see what's wrong with statements like that are a problem, then it might be helpful to try think about it a bit more.

    Of course, if you can't stand that, you can always try add the feature yourself, though saying "do it yourself" pretty much causes the same level of angst in the other direction.

    1. Re:It's all in the way you pitch it... by Obfuscant · · Score: 2

      When you decide to express your personal brilliance to the developer, take the time to word it in such a way that it doesn't come across as condescending or undermining.

      He's not expressing it to the developer, he's expressing it in a posting to the Internet. I.e., to everyone. That's how people who aren't the developer are telling him it isn't a change they want.

  20. Re:Because I use 50+ different softwares each day! by QRDeNameland · · Score: 1

    And about 30% of them are auto-updating with random "changes" that probably started out as one of your suggestions, but BREAK MY WORKFLOW.

    Obligatory xkcd

    --
    Momentarily, the need for the construction of new light will no longer exist.
  21. At Microsoft, it's even worse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I have four program managers (they manage the "program," not the program managers might be called product managers at other places), and I don't think in my six years here I've ever seen them take a suggestion from either developers or customers. They all think they know better.

  22. Because modern day updates are often lobotomies... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I don't know if you've been keeping an eye on things, but generally "improvements" aren't.

    Examples:

    • Windows 7 -> Windows 10 - forced upgrade, with the "new version" having rampant privacy violations, and crashes that happen to this day. Responses to complaints typically end up being a mixture assertions that Windows 7 is some horribly ancient operating system, a pile of reassurances that mount up to nothing and still violate privacy, deflection of the problem, a note that new hardware is not supported by other OS's (likely due in no small part to Microsoft's interference), and ultimately, boiling down to, "tough shit, what are you gonna do about it?"
    • Android -> Later Android - on many occasions these updates go fairly disastrously. Case in point: Samsung Galaxy S5, update from Android 4.4.4 to 5.x, on Verizon network. Phones ended up slow battery guzzlers that got worse. Sometimes you helped it by reformatting the thing. Sometimes. If you were really lucky.
    • Linux: init -> systemd - that's worth a few threads by itself, but suffice it to say nobody but Red Hat and apparently the Debian maintainers like it.
    • Chrome: Standard scroll bars -> scrollbars without buttons - this is a pretty classic case of "trust us, it's an improvement," and it wasn't. This came out slowly and generally ate up everyone's buttons on their scroll bars to better match tablet and phone OS's. Thing is that desktop computers are not tablets or phones. Google told people that it was better. It wasn't, and the backlash was so great they eventually reverted it. Even if it looks less pretty, buttons on scroll bars help to make them functional (example - working on a touchpad or any other environment where a mouse's scroll wheel is unavailable, or trying to get things to line up precisely).
    • Gnome 2 -> Gnome 3 : This is another few threads on its own, and a controversial one, but people liked the Gnome 2 desktop interface, and hated the Gnome 3 interface that seemed like it was more designed with tablets in mind than desktop computers. In the last few years more people have "gotten used" to this change, although I can't help but wonder if a substantial number of these people have just accepted it not unlike a long-term illness. Making this worse is the entire Gnome MO, wherein if a function seems confusing, they don't fix it, they don't offer more help, they don't offer a "simple mode" with an Advanced option, they just rip it out, and tough shit if you liked being able to customize it. This extended down to being able to customize the specific parameters on screen savers.
    • Acrobat Reader: Managed to steadily corrode from a decently built application to something trying to cram a half-hearted phone OS interface on to a desktop application.

    There is a reason why User Experience (UX) people are so hated - because they take a nice, big, fat dump on existing users to improve things the way that THEY want, and, again, tough shit if you liked it the other way, and tough shit if it breaks the software for many users, or even if it breaks the machine. It's not unlike an interior decorator trying to make a "statement" in many cases. Not unlike one of those shows where they have someone come in and "redecorate" the house and it turns out to be a total nightmare. This is not helped by the fact that with many situations, updates are now FORCED, so you can't throw the interior decorator out. In many cases, companies and organizations act as if you don't own the computer (and in many cases, the companies want to own the computer you paid for, and they treat the software like they do in fact own the machine). And even if you do, they usually manage to cripple you in some way (usually compatibility) until you're forced to capitulate - and things are usually even worse by then.

    Note, however, that this does NOT necessarily just apply to the UI, in case I've overemphasized that - it works with any and every aspect of the software that can be changed. In short, in

  23. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. by shanen · · Score: 1

    Simple enough. If something is working well enough for my purposes, then I'll tend to resist change. Actually, going beyond that, if it's working perfectly, then any change is going to make it worse. Doesn't matter that nothing is perfect if I think it is, or perhaps if I have adapted my purposes to fit with what the software is perfect for. (Or perhaps the real problem is that "perfect" is mostly a matter of opinion and the delusion is that there is a better solution for everyone.)

    Solution: Don't fix it unless you can convince enough people to pay for the fix. In project form, describe EXACTLY what is going to be done and what success will look like.

    Yeah, it's the old charity share brokerage idea again. Can you imagine a funding system so powerful that it could fix Slashdot? Me neither.

    --
    Freedom = (Meaningful - Coerced) Choice != (Speech | Beer^2), and sad sock puppets' bad mods avail them naught.
  24. Because people are broken by sgage · · Score: 1

    The reason for the syndrome that you describe is that people are broken, and need to make themselves feel powerful and important (and oh so cool) by being negative just about towards everything. This has been going on for years, and has just gotten worse and worse. It's become a reflex.

    1. Re:Because people are broken by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Irony much?

  25. Your suggestion is a bad one by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    You are an idiot. If you weren't you could try to do it yourself.

    You will break my workflow and turn a passable tool into a piece of useless junk.

    You have no concern for others, and an overly inflated opinion of yourself.

    You are an idiot.

    1. Re:Your suggestion is a bad one by JoeDuncan · · Score: 1

      If I had mod points, they would be yours, Mr. Coward sir. This is spot on.

  26. Features have Costs by LionKimbro · · Score: 5, Insightful

    When I was a younger programmer, I thought, "Features are great! Always add a feature, if it could help someone!" I overestimated the value of the feature, and didn't think at all about the costs of the feature. "I mean, how long does it take to implement this? 10 minutes? A couple days? What's that matter, vs. the utility that this would provide?"

    What I didn't realize at the time was that every feature basically adds an exponential cost, and has an impact on everything else going on in the codebase. Features introduce new possibilities, and new possibilities create new state combinations, and new state combinations create new bugs and new need-to-test circumstances. New features usually have a user interface impact, several new features have a dramatic user interface impact. New features need to be supported by new or future-self programmers, who have to understand and navigate around the code. If the product is ported, the feature needs to be ported as well. New features also require additional documentation, and if the product is localized the new documentation requires new localizations.

    I've heard that "the skilled Go player is reluctant to make a move." I think it's similar for the application developer, and for much the same reason.

  27. Version Fatigue. by Rashkae · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Everyone (Many people) are suffering from some kind of version fatigue. It's as simple as that. Owning any software run device these days is like having someone come and and re-arrange all the furniture in your house every week. The novelty might seem nice at first, but after a while, any change that you don't specifically want becomes irritating.

    1. Re:Version Fatigue. by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Everyone (Many people) are suffering from some kind of version fatigue. It's as simple as that. Owning any software run device these days is like having someone come and and re-arrange all the furniture in your house every week. The novelty might seem nice at first, but after a while, any change that you don't specifically want becomes irritating.

      Pretty much this, to use the car analogy I have a car that's 10+ years old and I know exactly how it works. I know pretty much every knob, dial and lever, pedal response, how it handles on the road, how much space it takes to park, how much luggage will fit, pretty much everything. And I don't want any of it to change on anyone else's schedule or because they've decided the new way is better than the old way, obviously if there's a safety recall I want that but otherwise... no. I have computer software that's pretty much like that, it does what I want and I don't want it to change. But because software gets hacked I feel a need to stay patched. But often I can't stay patched unless I'm also on a constant upgrade treadmill.

      The downside for the developers is of course that you have to live with ancient versions and bugs that were fixed years ago. Like IE6, how many of us hasn't wished for that to die in a fire. I remember one discussion on the Debian mailing list where a developer was so tired of getting bugs for older versions he had time-bombed the code, any older than X months and it'd pop up a big warning saying this version is obsolete and demanded to be upgraded. But as a user, I did not mind running almost 10 year old WinXP. I don't mind running almost 10 year old Win7. And if Microsoft gave us a home version of the Enterprise LTSB with no feature upgrades only 10 years of security patches I'd take it.

      And I'd like it to be loosely coupled, so I can run a mix of old and new software. With Linux distros the packages and dependencies have often meant that if I want to run a newer version of one particular package it'll drag in a whole kitchen sink of library updates forcing other applications to upgrade. It's okay that you can dist-upgrade everything every 6 months or every 2 years, but often you cross fingers and pray nothing important changed. Without backports, PPAs and such I'd go nuts. Of course some software is very conservative and pragmatic, you can start a release years later and drop right in. Others... it's pretty much UI design fashion, it'll change just to be hip and cool.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    2. Re:Version Fatigue. by Areyoukiddingme · · Score: 1

      Everyone (Many people) are suffering from some kind of version fatigue. It's as simple as that. Owning any software run device these days is like having someone come and and re-arrange all the furniture in your house every week. The novelty might seem nice at first, but after a while, any change that you don't specifically want becomes irritating.

      More than irritating when in the process of rearranging the furniture they stack your recliner on top of your dining room table, put the TV behind the sofa, and hide all your spoons.

      Resistance to modifications starts to really congeal when so much of the software we use everyday is subjected to capricious, useless changes, chasing fashion or some nebulous architectural Cause, with a capital 'C'. (Firefox, we're looking at you.) When the fundamentals, right down to the OS, won't hold still, people start to get very very cranky about changes to their niche tool that they're actually using to get something done.

  28. Are your suggestions actually useful? by jeff4747 · · Score: 2

    "Hey, I think it would be really cool if you embedded vi in your video player. That way I could edit the files in hex on the fly!! Just have it switch to vi when you right-click on play!"

    There's about 5 people who would actually want that feature. There are an enormous number of people who will accidentally right-click on the play button and have no idea what is going on, leading to a massive decrease in usability in order to gain that feature.

    1. Re:Are your suggestions actually useful? by freax · · Score: 1

      No no no, no. Right click and eMacs opens. Not vi. Besides, the usability issues will go away if you'd let vim, not vi, open.

    2. Re:Are your suggestions actually useful? by allo · · Score: 1

      emacs would at least add a nice video player, to the software.

  29. Obvious by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

    Is it me, or is the most obvious answer going over this guys head.. I'm pretty sure the most likely reason that people ask why they would want a certain feature is that they don't actually see the use for a certain feature. So what he is really asking is, "why don't people want the features I do?". This is why gathering requirements for software is actually a job in itself and requiring of skills. If this person has absolute confidence that their ideas are good they need to put work behind it, learn to develop, make alternative product 'B' and win the market away from product 'A'.

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  30. Really Improvements??? by perry64 · · Score: 1

    My best guess is that most of the people don't like your ideas because they don't think your suggestions would improve the product, not any innate refusal to change.

    Think about how many times one of your favorite apps has changed its interface in a way you thought sucked. Do you really think the designers said, "Hey, we've got a great interface, let's make it worse?" No, just like you, they thought their changes would improve it, but they didn't.

    A favorite example was when Google removed the Pegman from Maps, making using Streetview almost impossible.

  31. The answer why is simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The answer why so many negative comments are posted is that MOST people want to put everyone down. It is their way of feeling important Since they don't have the intellect to understand the issue they can only attack the postings. Those who do have insight will comment either positively or with specific reasons of why the idea should or should not be done.

    This is the sickness that the world faces with anonymous posting. Even this posting will have someone pooh pooh it thinking that they are so 'funny', but they are just confirming their ignorance.

  32. It's "Don't pull the rug out from under me" by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

    ... the sheer number of "why would you want that at all" or "nobody needs that" or "the software is fine as it is" type responses from software users. What is particularly puzzling is that its not the developers of the software rejecting the suggestions -- its users of the software ...

    You've answered your own question. To mix a few metaphors:

    One of the things about software is that a LOT of people stand on the shoulders of each giant - by being users of his code. A change that isn't a straight augmentation (and even some that are intended to be) can shift the sand under their castles and bring them crashing down.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  33. Take it easy there by pjrc · · Score: 1

    Rather than "immediately post suggestions", perhaps a slower & more deliberate approach would be better?

    Or maybe you're convinced you really do know best, perhaps even reject this comment as merely the uninformed suggestion of someone not fully familiar with the specifics of your suggestions made to open source software projects?

  34. Consider seriously by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Consider seriously the real possibility that you are dumber than your users and that your ideas deserve more scorn than they have actually received.

  35. Even if you do the work, they might sue by tepples · · Score: 1

    Which doesn't help when the app is proprietary, and its developer responds to "actual fucking code" with an actual fucking lawsuit alleging infringement of copyright. See, for example, The Tetris Company with clones and Nintendo with Pokemon and Metroid mods.

  36. Well, yes by c · · Score: 2

    I can definitely understand that sort of reaction for developers, especially if you're talking about small open source projects... those are projects which usually scratch the itch of the developer, so feature requests are definitely going to be an uphill battle if they aren't interesting to the developer (for some definition of "interesting" which might mean "actually useful", "fun to code/play with", "that code is shit and needs refactoring anyways", "suggestion in the form of a patch/pull request", etc).

    I think users see software development effort as zero sum; if someone is working on a feature they aren't interested in, then someone isn't working on other stuff they think is important. It's a well-known phenomenon that often comes up when someone talks about the complexity of Microsoft Excel (in the form of the 90-10 rule)... users don't see the bigger picture and only care about their own workflow and how changes impact them.

    The easy solution is to simply not give a crap about the opinions of other users of whatever software you use. They don't have your best interests in mind either.

    --
    Log in or piss off.
  37. Maybe your ideas just suck.... by drew_92123 · · Score: 2

    Seriously... you might just be one of those sorts of folks that has really terrible ideas...

  38. English as a second language by tepples · · Score: 1

    That or English is a second language to the asker because the asker happens to have been born outside the territory of the Five Eyes.

  39. Examples? by Balial · · Score: 2

    Am I the only one who wants to see examples of these unquestionable improvements that must be agreed to?

  40. Why? by Bomarc · · Score: 1

    I have product "X". It works; most of the time. Mega Corporation has done everything they can to make it so I can't report problems, and all I can do is bitch about the problems on public forums and have people agree - the software has it's problems.

    Now ... without fixing any of the KNOWN issues, you want me to use and adapt Mega Corporation's next release "Y". I take a looks at it; and they have 'made it easier' ...( they have not); they have added features that I will NEVER use; frequently remove features that I do use, and to make it worse they have not fixed the bugs that I've seen, and later I read about new bugs in Mega Corporation's products (not to mention security issues).

    And when this is scaled down from Mega Corporation to Mini Corporation; they are doing everything they can to just get by. New major features ... without fixes to old problems.

    It would be amusing is Mega Corporation actually released a "next version" that was nothing but bug fixes.

    This is why I stick with old software, and "Do Not" upgrade {improve} my "old" Software.

  41. "if implemented well" All too frequently it isn't by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

    I think you have your answer right there.

    --
    “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
  42. Re:frivolous features = unnecessary bugs by arth1 · · Score: 2

    And the way to fight feeping creaturitis is not to rip out parts of existing functionality that people use and replace it with something completely different that you think is more modern.
    Yes, Firefox and Gnome developers, I look at you.

  43. Some changes come at a cost not acceptable by all by b4_the_looking_glass · · Score: 2

    This could easily be likened to things like Systemd and Pulseaudio. Both are really great. But not if they get in the way by aiming for only a select audience use needs. There are some that just like what they already know. Some just complain because someone else did. But some changes force a direction that can't be see, as a limitation, by those that like the change. They can't see why anyone would want to do it any different. In some cases you can change some compile flags and adjust applications to your needs. In other cases, you get unwanted bloat, or you have to work around an improvement that works against your use case. Just because it makes sense to you, and gets implemented, doesn't mean that you have made it better for everyone. Some innovations make things easier for people that are not as experienced. The end result can be narrowing the innovations of the experienced. Expression could be used as an example here as well. Not everyone can make out what is being expressed in a philosophical discourse. If you change the language to reach a larger audience, you'll possibly lose depth and potency. The "command line interface vs graphical user interface" is another good example. You can be fishing around clicking your way through someones idea of an intuitive graphical work flow; or pipe a few commands together that do exactly what you need. Both are different versions of simplicity. Users of either side may find the opposing alternative way annoying.

  44. Can't know without examples (which is an example) by raymorris · · Score: 5, Insightful

    > maybe his suggestions are crap

    Maybe his ideas are crap. There is no way to tell since he didn't give / link even one specfic example.

    Maybe the way he presents his ideas is a problem. A very common problem os suggesting WHAT might be done, without mentioning WHY. You always need the why, and should lead with it. Think commercials "do you have this problem ... Our product will fix that problem for you. You'll benefit in three ways, X Y and Z." Often people suggest "let's do this" without clearly stating the problem it'll solve or the benefits of their suggestion. There is no way to tell if tje submitter does this since he didn't give / link even one specfic example.

    What we DO know is something about the submitter's writing style. We know he *assumes* that his ideas should be implemented, and further assumes that we'll agree - without even telling us what any of his ideas are. Likely, he does the same thing in his suggestions - assumes that they should be done, assumes that everyone will agree that they should be done, and fails to provide even one example of what he's talking about.

  45. Because your'e dumb by bigdavex · · Score: 1

    Everybody thinks he's good at defining features and UI. "Look at this thing! It exactly matches the mental model I have! It's genius!"

    Well, duh, making something that the inventor understands and likes is easy. It's making a thing that makes sense to everyone else that's the trick.

    --
    -Dave
  46. Re:Because you aren't offering to do the work. by arkarumba · · Score: 2

    ??? I thought a speeding train has a lot of inertia and not much static friction. I don't see how the two are conflated.

  47. Competition by mfh · · Score: 2

    ...its not the developers of the software rejecting the suggestions -- its users of the software that often react sourly to improvement suggestions that could, if implemented well, benefit a lot of people using the software in question.

    When you arrive to some forum and post a suggestion, you are in competition with other people who use the software and might not want to divert developer attention away from bugs or improvements already slated. Another probable reason is competition between suggestions by users vying for developer time. These people shooting down your ideas probably made some other suggestions and had them shot down by other users, or alternatively have some suggestions still pending, so they view your suggestion as a threat.

    There could be technical reasons why your suggestion shouldn't be implemented and users may instinctively know this because they are often experts on that particular piece of software as they use it daily.

    However, as a developer myself, I can assure you that I always dig deeper to determine if the users have valid feedback or if their feedback is only playing politics.

    Good ideas always influence me, even if they are imperfect ideas and would need some adjusting to become viable.

    --
    The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
  48. Re:Oh boy by epine · · Score: 2

    Statistically, you probably aren't any nearer the smartest than I am.

    If you can successfully write that prior down, you're almost certainly wrong.

    If you can't write that prior down, you're still wrong (but in the opposite direction).

  49. Arrogant Turds by tempest69 · · Score: 1

    Software upgrades are often don't care about the existing userbase.
    Time getting into a grove is actually pretty damn expensive..
    \ And losing the grove because someone thinks "showing a bunch of file previews isn't that much of a slowdown, barely fifteen seconds" can really upset users who open that thing a thirty times a day --mostly with muscle memory--.

  50. I am someone who..... by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 1

    "I am someone who likes to post improvement suggestions for different software tools I use on the internet."

    TRANSLATON:

    "I am someone who likes to post his half-baked ideas about how your software just needs feature X that I personally think would be SUPER DUPER MEGA COOL even though it's not really useful and would require YOU to code all sorts of shit for ME at my whim."

    "Nice text editor, but why doesn't it include a window with NASA's live weather feed for Mars?? If you could just implement that, it would be AWESOME!1!!

    --
    Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
  51. Don't improve my screwdriver by iamacat · · Score: 1

    Or rather do, but don't force me to buy a powered screw remover that needs charging after 20 minutes of use and can only be controlled via bluetooth from an iPhone. Old versions of software should be at least sold it is indefinitely, or placed in public domain if the maker no longer sees a profit from a particular version when the new one is available. It would not be crazy to provide security patches and basic usability updates so long as that is economically viable.

    What is actually happening today is worse. A lot of times it is not possible to reinstall or even use an existing install of a software version you paid for, when the new version has removed functionality that was your reason for buying the product.

    Constant volatility has in turn devalued software. If I am sure that a particular application will consistently serve my regular needs for 10 years like a screwdriver does, an $1000 investment does not seem crazy. But if your company could go out of business tomorrow and I will be left out in the cold, how can I justify spending anything at all?

  52. Maybe they reached the same conclusion I did. by Oligonicella · · Score: 1

    Having read your little screed, you struck me as being incredibly pompous, thinking your ideas are "right" and everyone else is "wrong".

    or even pretend that "the suggestion is a bad one?"

    Like your pretending your suggestions are good ones?

  53. Software updates and surgery by zerofoo · · Score: 1

    Both should only be done when absolutely necessary.

    Both come with significant risk and a significant cost to the end-user/patient. Unless there is a dire need for each - do not do them.

    If your idea is so much better than the status quo - it should be a separate and optional release, or a new product entirely.

    The mantra in software seems to be "fix it until it's broken".

  54. Re:Bad experiences with updates/upgrades by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 2

    Every update of iTunes

    Every version of iTunes ever.

    iTunes is the single worst piece of shitware I've ever seen. Non-standard interface with a clunky UI, and half the shit is hidden under layers of craptastic controls. The other half is missing, like simple file transfer from A to B.

    Wanna grab just one file off your iPhone or iPad? No, let's sync the whole fucking thing because you don't have anything better to do on a Saturday night.

    --
    Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
  55. Your use case probably does not match mine by Kreigh · · Score: 1

    I doubt that you and I use the software in the same way. Your use case and mine are not the same. It is at least 50-50 that your "improvement" will break my use case (or make it more difficult). I did, after all, select the software, as it works today, because it solved one of my problems. BTW, there is a good chance I won't buy/install the next update to the software because it will probably "improve" it to the point it is no longer useable.

  56. Misjargonization by fyngyrz · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Referring to software and applications as 'codes' is common in many industries (example "here). People that use such terminology are of much higher than average intelligence.

    And so they have even less excuse for their mangling of the terminology, and definitely should be smiled at, nodded to, and ultimately, ignored other than when they have some kind of arbitrary coercive power over you, in which case, do it in your head anyway.

    If you walk up to a nuclear engineer with your 140 IQ and ask him to "turn up the atumz", he should probably just call security and have your ass thrown out on the street.

    Seriously. If you don't know even the basics of an industry's terminology -- it's time to leave off trying to involve yourself until you get that handled. If you do.

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    1. Re:Misjargonization by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      If you walk up to a nuclear engineer with your 140 IQ and ask him to "turn up the atumz"

      Oh many if you think a comment like that would be out of the ordinary you've never worked in an industrial plant before. Industry is good at one thing: mangling the english language for the work related lulz.

    2. Re:Misjargonization by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      It might be an archaic term, but they've been in the business for a lot longer than you have (or you would have recognized the terminology).

      I recognize the misuse just fine; I've been at this since the 1960's. Front panel toggles, punchcards and paper tape are wholly familiar to me, as are arranging diodes in a matrix and building CPUs out of RTL and TTL. The fact that I recognize the misuse is not motivation to appreciate it, any more than I would if some non-contemporaneous Babbage-era use of "gears" was suddenly thought to be a good idea to use as the go-to word for software, or if someone referred to a modern day stick of RAM as "core", or if someone insisted on referring to computers in general as abaci.

      The industry is well centered around particular terminology right now and has been for decades. That's the terminology to use, unless you want people focusing more on what you said, than what you meant. Which tends to lead to the wrong place no matter what you do. Particularly in engineering. Words matter. Being sloppy is costly.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
  57. Because Changes Can Cause Problems by kenwd0elq · · Score: 1

    I understand that the INTENT is to make the software better, or to improve the feature set. But in many cases - I'm going out on a limb here and say "in MOST cases" - those changes will result in new bugs being introduced, or even desirable features being removed to make way for the new.

  58. You're forgetting about new users by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    who want a modern UI. You see this all over the web with pages flattening to fit with the iPhone look.

    You're also forgetting about new tools. Writing a webpage with Angular is 10x simpler than Dojo. But if you're going to rebuild anyway you might as well modernize the UI.

    If I'm writing software I want new users, not just the old ones. Unless those old ones are paying me enough to retire on an island, which they never do. Nobody likes paying for software if it's not a game.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:You're forgetting about new users by murdocj · · Score: 1

      Yep. And then we end up with crap like the MS ribbon UI. Or the way system administration moves from place to place in Windows, apparently at random.

      No, users do NOT want a "modern UI". They want something that is simple, functional, obvious. When you change the UI, you need to be able to clearly justify the changes... not just "ooooooo shiny!".

  59. There's plenty of good reasons by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    you're just not deep enough in the guts of the app to know what they are. UI re-writes are seldom if ever for the hell of it. There's a few good ones:

    1. Switching to a modern and more maintainable toolkit. e.g. going from Dojo to Angular or God help us all a table layout + custom CSS to Angular. Like it or not at some point you are going to have to add features to stay relevant unless you're IBM. Oh wait, they're revenue's the the toilet. Or maybe you want a web site that scales from iPhone to phablet to Tablet to 4k desktop? Guess what it's time for a new tool kit.

    2. You'd like some new users, but our crusty mid 90s UI is turning them off. Yeah, time for a re-write.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:There's plenty of good reasons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      In the mobile world there are a lot of UI rewrites that appear to be just for the hell of it. But yea, in the desktop world, where software actually does something, UI rewrites are rare because they're hard and they inevitably piss off users.

      I'll take crusty mid 90s UI over broken ass android UI de jour any day.

    2. Re:There's plenty of good reasons by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 2

      you're just not deep enough in the guts of the app to know what they are. UI re-writes are seldom if ever for the hell of it. There's a few good ones:

      Yes, there are, and there are also a lot of bad ones:

      1. I think a new interface will give my program a fresh look even though the one I have works great and users like it.

      2. I think a feature is better implemented in a different way so I'll change how it works.

      3. I don't know how to implement this in our current UI so I will redo it to allow me to add this feature.

      4. I think this is cool and current so let's get rid of the old UI without thinking about how users actually use the UI.

      UI changes need to be carefully thought out. People don't like change and if the rewrite requires learning a new way of doing things or removes features / ways of doing things users will have problems. The developer of one program I use regularly decided to completely redo the interface which resulted in many complaints and the rating to drop from 5 stars to 1 star. He completely broke the old way of doing things and changed features so the program became essentially useless for many users. Fortunately, he quickly returned to the 'classic' interface and all is good again. If it ain't broke don't fix it is a good rule for UI design.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    3. Re:There's plenty of good reasons by MoarSauce123 · · Score: 1

      There may be other reasons. Worked on a UI replacement project (not so much a redesign) because keeping UI tool kit A and have it be compatible with new browser versions would have cost 40,000$ in license fees. Switching to UI tool kit B cost 3,000$ in license fee and a month coding followed by a month testing. Feature wise nothing changed, the look and feel is a bit different. We basically ended up with the exact same product, but saved 37,000$ in license fees. The work of coding and testing was needed either way. As for point 2: I rather go with a well designed mid 90s UI than most of the modern crap like material design. Hate it as a user.

    4. Re:There's plenty of good reasons by MoarSauce123 · · Score: 1

      Mobile apps are expected to have a new version at least once a month...otherwise the app is labeled abandonware.

    5. Re:There's plenty of good reasons by barc0001 · · Score: 1

      The problem is generally the frequency of these updates. Rather than 10 changes every minor rev, how about significant changes only every 18 months to 2 years, with some beta testing in between by a beta pool only? This is the major complaint I have - a lot of software like Firefox and a ton of Android apps add features, then take them away, then put them back, then move controls, move them back, change them, remove something and add something else that does only 40% of what the old thing did then change that around. And all of this takes place in 3-6 months on all of their users desktops/phones/tablets. Just because your software is "free" doesn't mean all of your users should live in a constant state of alpha testing.

      > You'd like some new users, but our crusty mid 90s UI is turning them off. Yeah, time for a re-write.

      Alternatively you'd like to KEEP your users but your constant UI rewrites are driving them insane and they're dropping your app for alternatives faster than your rewrites are bringing in fresh ones. Maybe it's time to slow the hell down on general release changes.

  60. the spork by holophrastic · · Score: 3

    the spork is better in every way. it's a spoon. it's a fork. it takes up less space. it's not like you ever use a spoon and a fork at the same time.

    still, no one wants a spork.
    a screwdriver could have a hammer on the other end. it doesn't. you don't want it to.

    it's not about better. sometimes, it's just about the abstract concept of knowing what your tool is, and what it does. I can have two different tools for different things.

    the all-too-common swiss army knife is completely useless. Have you ever actually seen any human being even try to use a swiss army knife? It's hillarious.

    software features are the same way. it's 2017. do you think anyone uses office suite programs for anything more than they did thirty years ago? maybe 0.1% do. Maybe a whole 1% use pivot tables. Everyone else can write business reports and book reports and essays in wordperfect with plastic keyboard overlays. But now we have drop down menus, excuse me, ribbon bars, excuse me, drop down menus inside of ribbon bars! Even clippy couldn't have predicted that one.

    Better, is often much more useless. It's like more storage-space in your car or in your house. There's a point at which you need an index to find your stuff. And that point is way sooner than people think. So your SUV, and your storage locker, and your attic, and your space bedroom, become piles of junk. That's not better.

    software functions are the same way. I need to convert video basically between four different formats in 2017. And almost always between only two, now that flash is dead. But it's been ten years, and I still can't figure out how to get VLC to convert a video into anything usable. So I'm using a shitty shareware program that's far less capable, but doesn't give me the option of producing a 10x10 pixel, 6GB video, from a simple cell phone video. Asking me to select the bitrate in an age where internet speeds vary as much as they do is the all-time dumbest option. Nobody cares about the bitrate. Ask me to choose the filesize, which means way more. Or the general quality. Do you think I care about the pixel dimensions when the compression is horrible? High-res compression artifacts, yummy.

    More software features is like a new employee. If you can't work with what you have, a new employee ain't gonna make the old ones any better.

    1. Re:the spork by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Are you nuts? VLC is a media player and streaming server. If you want a good media transcoder, use HandBrake.

    2. Re: the spork by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      wow, way to miss the point. I was arguing for your side.

    3. Re:the spork by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      I do think that was my point you're making. Thanks for the help.

    4. Re: the spork by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      Way to give concrete examples.

    5. Re:the spork by swb · · Score: 2

      a screwdriver could have a hammer on the other end. it doesn't. you don't want it to.

      I met a farmer who had welded sockets of his two most common sizes to the tips of the handles on a pair of slip-joint pliers.

      He said it saved him lots of trips to the toolbox.

    6. Re: the spork by holophrastic · · Score: 1

      cutting a few facial hairs, just at a random time, in a random place, without a mirror. and scissors? run the risk of poking or snipping my skin or nostrils? no thanks.

      contrast that with: in my bathroom, with a full mirror, and full lighting, and a pull-out with all of my facial grooming and hygene tools, including an electric shaver which is probably the best tool for a few stray facial hairs.

  61. Us Linux people... by TheOuterLinux · · Score: 1

    When I see a new feature to software I've been using for years, I cringe because I know that means unnecessary bugs and that the guy that put his two cents into making it happen isn't thinking about compatibility, just as long as it works with his $3K 64-bit GPU monster of a machine, to which we don't all have. Even the people willing to test software are usually above average with their hardware. If this is a cloud computing issue, all that's happening is companies using open source software to destroy the point of open source software. Why would letting a server have all the final say be a good idea? That's just Window$ 10 level nonsense. We can't all have a server in our house to run our own settings or prevent from being spied on like cattle just because I want to run a graphic editing program; that's asking too much.

    Personally, I think it's because they can't push a new architecture to trick people into to buying new computers like they did in the late 2000's, so they profit off of cloud services and advertising instead, creating "business standards" along the way that were never actually there (free-market murder), locking Fortune 500 companies and government agencies into licenses and contracts. Besides, please don't be that asshole trying to coin a phrase that is just going to end up contributing to the "newer is better" zeitgeists. There has been absolutely nothing invented in the last 5-10 years worth a damn to the average person. It's all been Kickstarter level BS, selling "solutions," or "look what our new super computer can do!"

    The reality: "Oh that's awesome! When do I get a turn on that billion dollar tax payed badboy? :)...Why aren't you answering? Oh never? :(...You say there will be applications for it soon? Well, until then I'll enjoy contributing to biometric databases via Facebook & dating apps and and talk to my "friends" I've never seen in real life and play shitty mobile games. I have followers, ergo I have worth." Those "applications" are nothing more than over-glorified web browsers using incredibly limited or expert level API and offers an excuse to not improve hardware for the last 5-10 years while still charging outrageous prices. They can do this because your computer isn't doing any work, the "cloud" is. You have no privacy or freedom and people actually pay for this. And the bandwidth ISP's keep bitching about, the reality on that is because they can sell your browsing history, which would also include unencrypted cloud computing, this means that your government can legally "purchase" that information rather than going through warrants and red tape to only get the same information.

    If anything, there's a "It's 1984; oh well" millennial syndrome, like they're "cultured" or something. They have so few life-threatening fears that they evolved to ignore privacy instead of physical threats. Currently, needs are being created over a bed of social Darwinist peer pressure that has been around too long for a company's customers to care about or remember. New features would of been great ten or twenty years ago, but now it's just tech companies taking advantage of the short-term memory "drones" that they themselves have carefully cultivated over the last decade. Some software even goes as far as removing features to only bring them back for "premium" users. That's bullshit. That's also why I use Linux and desktop FOSS software when ever possible.

  62. Re:People hate change. by Zmobie · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I wish it were just that. I've been writing and deploying enterprise systems for years and it is still basically people just don't like change even if the change is vastly superior to what they had before. I've literally had people for the first month tell me how much this new system is terrible and was a waste of money and then I talk to them 3 months later after they actually have USED it and complete reversal with nothing but praise for the new system... Most people don't like learning is the bottom line. They want to show up, do the same thing they have for years, clock out and collect a pay check. Same thing for most users outside enterprise stuff too, they don't want the application to change because they hate to learn new stuff.

  63. You've offended the software's fans by Ichijo · · Score: 1

    by implying that the software isn't perfect. So the biggest fans will be the first and most vocal opponents of your suggestion. It's tragic when the product's greatest supporters are also its greatest impediment to improvement, but that's just human nature, unfortunately.

    --
    Any sufficiently unpopular but cohesive argument is indistinguishable from trolling.
  64. All those little changes add up... by Yaztromo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...and they usually add up to a giant, steaming pile of crap.

    I worked on a project once that did its best to implement all user requests in its product. By the time I started working on it, there were at least seven different ways to do any basic function, because different users thought it would be great if they each had their own way of doing the same damn thing.

    The result? The software was bloated, and damned near impossible to adequately test. The permutations possible to do the exact same task were staggering. This resulted in a lot of weird bugs that weren't found during testing. It made the software brittle, and in the end the same users that wanted all these different ways of doing the same task (multiplied by a few dozen different tasks I might add) weren't happy with the resulting complexity. All that stuff that users thought would be simple and a good idea, in combination, sucked.

    Sometimes it's a developers job to say no. It can be very difficult to decide when that time is, but projects that never say no are doomed to failure. Sometimes an over-arching vision as to how the product should work needs to win out over every single good idea some random user has.

    I sometimes work with physical tools. And there are times when I'm using a wrench, but need to put it down and start using a hammer. I don't think it's unreasonable of the tool manufacturer to reject it when I suggest to them it would be great if they welded a hammer to all of their wrenches so I didn't have to put one tool down to use the other.

    Yaz

  65. Re:frivolous features = unnecessary bugs by secretsquirel · · Score: 1

    Eh, ya Gnome went of the rails but I'll take most of the Firefox UI changes that resulted in less wasted space. The removed features without replacement I'm less enthusiastic about.

  66. Re: Winning the Internet by hackwrench · · Score: 1

    You haven't seen my entry in this thread, where someone with little to do with QuickBASIC dissuaded a QB64 developer from features.

  67. Funny. by hackwrench · · Score: 1

    Because you did the opposite and analyzed the submitter, not the code.

  68. AKA IIABDFI by Solandri · · Score: 1

    If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

    Actually, a couple decades ago, I don't think most people would've minded since "update" was generally synonymous with "new features". But the last 15-20 years has seen a marked increase in the number of software updates which removed functionality. i.e. Stuff you could do previously, you couldn't do anymore after an update. That's led to people taking a defensive attitude towards software updates - unless the update delivers a crucial security patch or necessary feature, they'd rather not risk it and prefer to stick with the tried and true. Feeding developers mildly useful but not earthshattering ideas just gives them an excuse to shove an unwanted update down users' throats.

  69. Re: Can't know without examples (which is an examp by hackwrench · · Score: 1

    No. Merely that he has observed his ideas get shot down by people with no clear interest in the project. I have observed similarly.

  70. Re: Nintendo by hackwrench · · Score: 1

    Wait 'til they get a load of my "anti-Mimic Rescue" game with an ex-Human Federation military officer, "Samu" Japanization for "Same" of the "Same" Shapeshifter race, raised by a cult, "The Identity" out to destroy a "Mimic" race, that be

  71. Let me be clear by theendlessnow · · Score: 2

    Why did you post this? Do you think it matters? It doesn't matter. Why are you wasting our time? /. is fine without your post.

  72. Re: Nintendo by hackwrench · · Score: 1

    (bad phone situ, on computer now) Mimic race who procreates by copying another being, except replacing the propagation info with its own and then killing the original. The "Same" race get its name by the fact that they inject a child member of its species into another culture to learn from it. Samu was destined for Human Space Pirates originally, but The Identity detected Mimic among the space pirates and swooped in.
    This game is tailor made to toe the line but not cross it. It shares elements with Metroid and Star Trek. My dad's side's got a lot of lawyers and my dad's with the Ohio bar. Your move, Nintendo.

  73. People have workflows. by aussersterne · · Score: 4, Informative

    They invest the time and the learning to master a workflow. They expect a payoff from this investment in their ability to use these workflows to achieve other ends. When you mess with a workflow, you negate that investment. They have to spend time learning and mastering a workflow all over again before they can apply it toward their actual goals.

    Nobody uses software "to be using software" or "for a good experience." They use it to get things done. If they have to spend two weeks mastering a new workflow then your improvements had better deliver a multiple of that value in return, or they're going to come back with "that's cool, but it would trip me up for all of my muscle and click memory to be invalidated."

    People aren't averse to improvements. They're averse to evolutionary improvements that cost more to the user in practice (time invested and mistakes avoided) than they deliver on the other end. "Small tweaks" often fall into this category. Some dev moves a button to a more "logical" placement and for the next two weeks, the users lose five or ten seconds every single time they need to use it because their absent minded clicking—absent-minded because they're focusing on what they're really trying to accomplish, not on 'using the software'—keeps ending up in the wrong place vs. what they're accustomed to.

    Dev says "BUT IT'S BETTER." User experience is actually that of being irritated and not getting things done as efficiently as usual, so their response is "IN PRACTICE, IN THE CURRENT CONTEXT OF MY LIFE, NO IT'S NOT."

    --
    STOP . AMERICA . NOW
    1. Re:People have workflows. by Casualposter · · Score: 2

      The clearest example of adding a new feature and wrecking a work flow that comes to mind is adding the Ribbon in Microsoft office. I had an office of older (nearing retirement age, who remember fondly the days of mechanical typewriters and carbon paper) employees who came to work one morning and got nothing done because they had been upgraded over night and couldn't figure out where anything was. What's this? How do I open my files. How do I print? The layout is wrong? Great day that was.

      --
      Creative Spelling Copyright (2002). May use without Persimmons
    2. Re:People have workflows. by JoeDuncan · · Score: 1

      Exactly.

  74. You are not alone. by Foresto · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I see this behavior surprisingly often as well. Any explanation I offered would just be conjecture, I'm afraid. I have some guesses about why people do this, but they're just guesses. I think it would make for an interesting psychology study.

    Anyway, I'm mainly posting here to offset the toxic comments I see in response to your question. I, too, have been there. I've been attacked by onlookers for making suggestions, with the naysayers backing off only when the project leads decided that my suggestions were good ones. I've watched other people get attacked similarly, sometimes when I was a newcomer, and sometimes when I was the developer. It doesn't seem to matter if you're making suggestions for someone else to implement or offering to do the work yourself; some people seem just as likely to sling mud at you either way.

    The internet has no shortage of obstructionist personalities, and the communities that gather around software projects are no exception. It makes me sad every time I see it, because to me, it is the antithesis of open software development. When it happens, everybody loses.

    The only advice I can think of right now is to accept constructive criticism of your ideas, but also don't assume that your ideas suck just because some internet troll says so. A lot of them are wrong.

    1. Re:You are not alone. by WDot · · Score: 1

      One example of a negative reaction to a suggestion I was surprised by had to do with Diablo III. They have 2-3 month "seasons" where you can create a new character and you get special rewards if you achieve certain things with that character in the timeframe of the season. The timing of the seasons was such though that they tended to end just as students would get out for winter or summer breaks. One person made the suggestion of shifting the seasons so that students could have more of an opportunity to participate. This led to a giant flamewar where people abused these "dumb kids" and "lazy students" for dare wanting to play Diablo III on their winter break. This wouldn't require any code changes, just an adjustment of when Blizzard hit the "start" and "stop" button for the season. People will get angry about anything.

    2. Re:You are not alone. by dlingman · · Score: 1

      It doesn't seem to matter if you're making suggestions for someone else to implement or offering to do the work yourself; some people seem just as likely to sling mud at you either way.

      So, you're offering to:
      * Update the design specs
      * Contact customers to get their sign off on the changes
      * Update the developer documentation
      * Update the customer facing documentation
      * Translate that customer facing documentation (and any visible changes) into all supported languages
      * Certify that your changes do not break any regulatory/legal requirements in all jurisdictions where the code will be deployed
      * Develop all the changed code yourself
      * Handle any merge issues with coworkers who were already altering that body of code
      * Perform all QA regression testing to ensure your changes don't break any existing functionality
      * Distribute and install the newer versions at all customer sites (who are willing to adopt your new version)
      * Handle all incoming support calls for the customers who didn't actually understand/want your changes/that are having troubles with it
      * Deal with the increase in support overhead/bugfixes for managing two versions of the code (before your changes and after your changes) until everyone is cut over to the new version

      Are you starting to understand why "offering to do the work" is still going to result in adding burden to others that they don't appreciate?

    3. Re:You are not alone. by Foresto · · Score: 1

      So, you're offering to...

      Yes.

      Your comment demonstrates a lot of arrogance, so I have doubts about whether this will do much good, but I'm going to take a chance and offer you some advice that might help you in life:

      1. When interacting with people whom you don't know, don't assume they are less experienced, less knowledgeable, less capable, or less anything than you are. Maybe you'll avoid insulting them and making a fool of yourself.

      2. Whenever you don't have all the information, consider looking for ways in which other people might be right, rather than making assumptions about how they might be wrong. Maybe you'll learn something.

    4. Re:You are not alone. by Foresto · · Score: 1

      I have NEVER seen anyone fight against a suggestion from someone offering to ALL the work.

      That's lovely, dear. I have. Maybe one day, when you've traveled the world, you will see things you haven't seen before and realize that they exist after all.

  75. Re:Some people are just naturally contrarian by Hylandr · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This right here.

    There have been tons of applications that I have loved that had reached a perfect balance of usability and performance. Then the dev takes the development beyond useful with shit like skins or Adding this or that and it begins a downward spiral. Instead of calling the work 'good' and doing something new they latched onto their one app as cash cow to start milking their existing customers for upgrades.

    Winamp was a prime example of this. When it came out it worked, it had a minimal footprint and was lightweight. Same for the image utility Acdsee, and believe it or not photoshop.

    Winamp and acdsee are apps I kept in a personal library to re-install after building a new machine because I detested the complexity and garbage the newer versions became. Photoshop used to come on 7 floppy disks and did everything I use Krita for today. Although Krita is far more capable today than Photoshop of the late 90's, it's still lightweight and doesn't insist on hooking into every bloody thing on your computer and calling home to authenticate.

    Add to this model the fact that now acdsee and photoshop requires a 'subscription' to operate is why I am wary of new versions.

    --
    ~ People that think they are better than anyone else for any reason are the cause of all the strife in the world.
  76. Support by zifn4b · · Score: 1

    Because increasing the complexity of the software requires additional support which you, the suggester, are not going to provide. Software isn't free.

    --
    We'll make great pets
  77. Re:People hate change. by MoarSauce123 · · Score: 1

    At times it is also much easier to blame an inanimate object like the software for procedural or management failures. I come across this often, users do not operate the system properly, import bad data, have high turnover and no budget for training...and in the end it is the stupid software's fault that folks do not show up for work on time.

  78. Re:frivolous features = unnecessary bugs by MoarSauce123 · · Score: 1

    "Unnecessary bugs" - Are you suggesting that there are necessary bugs? "Unnecessary bugs" is like white mustang, free gift, or ATM machine.

  79. Re:frivolous features = unnecessary bugs by MoarSauce123 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Hamburger, kebab (or kabob if your prefer), and above all the ribbon are the worst UI changes ever. Less wasted space? Can't spare the 20 px for a menu bar? These changes caused users to do more clicks to accomplish the same task as before. With the ribbon it even shape shifts on users and removes any optical reference. Ever tried to change the font properties while editing text inside a table in MSO with ribbon? Worst UX ever...and yet everyone apes this horrible design. A well crafted and properly structured menu system with keyboard shortcuts is the fastest means to operate a UI.

  80. Re:Because I use 50+ different softwares each day! by MoarSauce123 · · Score: 1

    Ever thought that your workflow may need improvement? Besides that, this one change probably fixes the issue hundreds of other users had. You are not alone in the world and as far as software goes your lawn is public property.

  81. Simple Explanation by hduff · · Score: 1

    People can be cunts. That' about 100% of the problem.

    --
    "I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people all day long and I assume they deserve it." : Dogbert
  82. Two reasons- Training and Reliability by Dr.+Crash · · Score: 1

    There are two reasons to NOT change the software - or at least the view seen by the users:

    1) Training - learning an application represents a significant investment in time and mental energy. Making a significant change in the interface (or worse, the actual workflow) means relearning the app, sometimes from worse-than-scratch because you already know what's wrong! So, if you have to relearn, you can relearn another app that doesn't have the feature and workflow churn.

    2) Reliability - adding code adds bugs. Code that once worked fine now doesn't. This again forces users to consider if it's time to learn another application and workflow simply to get away from the bugs.

  83. Competition by GuB-42 · · Score: 1

    Assuming your suggestion really is a good one, and most of the times it isn't, it may compete with other people ideas.
    Users have different priorities and developers can't do everything. So if you make a suggestion that some people aren't interested in, and developers implement it, it may delay the treatment of their own issues.
    It even applies to obvious bugs. For example, if you post a bug report saying that a crash can occur if you open a file containing Arabic text, you may get dissed by people who don't have this problem. They may give out weak arguments like "full Arabic support would require a complete redesign of the GUI" when the only thing you asked is for the software not to crash. They fear your suggestion may divert the attention of developers.

  84. To stop this we need to look at the OS by HalAtWork · · Score: 1

    Apple and MS are constantly changing the look and arrangement of their OS with each new version and then app developers for some reason feel the need to change and match that for whatever reason, and we end up with constantly rearranged and reskinned GUIs. Desktop OSes need to stop changing this stuff at the basic level and encourage consistency.

    Personally I'm sticking with GNU/Linux, first Gnome 2, now Cinnamon... I've been having a fairly consistent experience for about a decade

  85. Let's Get Real by Derjyn · · Score: 1

    After scrolling though many comments, there seems to be an energy similar to the very topic at hand (which isn't so crazy). First off, as a developer who has (at the very least) touched over 100 different languages (compiled, interpreted, whatever, you name it), I can say that for me personally, if a user has a suggestion for improvement, I'm all ears. Outside critiques and suggestions should not be corralled by the complexity of implementation. Anyone who argues otherwise is naive in my opinion. Not stupid, naive. Please don't twist my words or intention there! It's very easy as a developer to power through creating a "thing", which the MVP (minimum viable product) and fluff features, as well as everything in-between, and miss some usability bullet points or even expected functionality. Some users might not care about those things, perhaps they never even use functionality that is missing (queue X-Files theme song). What matters is, the validity of a suggestion. If a user writes up a detailed explanation of an improvement or quality-of-life suggestion, and it's good, that is free and powerful. We should be thankful, and I'd go so far as to say we should shun the jerks that foster negativity towards that type of communication within our users' communities. There is a certain level of user, surfer, whatever you want to call them, on the internet nowadays that is far too selfish for the good of us all. They have to be right, they have to be first, if it wasn't their idea, it sucks. If you disagree with them, you're a bigot or a troll. It's a waste of bandwidth. It's inefficient. It's my opinion that these types make up a good brunt of the naysayers that are in the DIMSS class, with only small amount of intelligent and valid types taking up the rest of the pie graph.

  86. Re: Wikipedia Syndrome by Bite+The+Pillow · · Score: 1

    More likely, based on the description, is that the functionality does not exist, so people don't use it. If they needed it, they would ask for it.

    Now there is a community of like minded people who don't need this new thing, and they mostly agree, since no one suggested it.

    Some new guy comes in and points out that your software is defective or deficient. Even if you didn't write it, you feel protective and defensive. It's mentally easier to write off the suggestion, than consider that people who aren't you might want or need minor tweaks.

    It's Wikipedia Syndrome, where minor improvements are seen as unnecessary because they weren't there before and everyone was happy that way. It's basic sociology, really. Digital Sociology needs to be a thing, applying the field to a new era.

  87. Re:There's plenty of good reasons No There's not by Casualposter · · Score: 4, Interesting

    You're going to change how the software interacts with the user because you got a nifty tool kit upgrade? Because you went from Programing Language Not Currently in Vogue to Programing Language De Jour? You think the software should work on a desktop bolted to a desk at a shipping department just like it works on your child's IPAD? The latest iteration of homo-sapiens isn't fawning over the fully functioning design? You should get out of programming and move into a more useful career: Ocean water garbage removal. Sure, it might seem like a good idea for the UI to be changed so that some feature can better fit in to the latest UI concept, or even be cool to the latest crop of budding consumers just entering college, but changing how something works is a huge deal - not for you programmers, but for the millions of people that actually use the software to get things done.

    Software is a tool, not an art project to stick in your effing portfolio. First off, UI design must be functional and then elegant. It matters not one wit if the UI is pretty or even if it wins awards for its looks if the thing doesn't effectively and efficiently do the damn job its supposed to do. Changing the UI design, especially deleting functions or moving them around is equivalent to breaking the software. It doesn't work like it did yesterday and NOW it is neither effective nor efficient. Now it requires learning, and then re-learning, and if used often will require UNLEARNING the old way -- something humans don't really do well at all. If you can't make the changes you need to the code to both improve the underlying performance, add a feature, appeal to the "youts of 'murica", and still keep the old stuff where it was and working as it was, then get out of programming. Just quit. Save me the time and aggravation of figuring out what is going through that two cell based life form you call a brain while I have a multi-million dollar project idling because the people working on it can't figure out where those vital features are now located or worse deprecated, a fancy word for too fucking lazy to keep a feature working.

    And don't get me started on the "what we changed in the latest upgrade" document. I get better change logs in World of Warcraft patches than any other piece of recently "upgraded" software. Hiring some stoner you met at the Weed Works to write "We changed stuff" and hide it in a PDF buried more effectively than landslide victims in Washington State, isn't sufficient so mitigate the change chaos. SO stop lying to yourself about how it's really okay and people will get over it. No THEY WON'T. We don't get over being blamed for the consequences of some anonymous jackass programmer's design changes. We get to SUFFER because of it. And that is NEVER going away. We remember it because you're the reason the budget was blown, the system failed, we missed a deadline because the software got upgraded. We didn't get new training because we had to spend the training budget on teaching folks how to use the upgrade instead of something that might actually get our productivity up. Yeah, change that UI, will ya? We need more stress and aggravation.

    Remember when Microsoft moved the print function in office? That little bitty change was a juggernaut of wasted time and effort trying to first, figure out where this common function had be re-located, and then passing that knowledge on to people who really only want to print documents as a part of their job. That's right, printing documents was the core piece of their job and one night it got upgraded into some other part of the software. Brilliant. Now we have employees approaching retirement age who already hate computers and software trying to figure out how to print documents so that they can ship product to customers while the trucks are idling outside the office at $200/hour demurage causing the shipping department to watch their quarterly bonus vanish as they struggled to figure out how to PRINT. Yeah that was a great move. I'm sure those guys w

    --
    Creative Spelling Copyright (2002). May use without Persimmons
  88. But I have a routine . . . by Alien54 · · Score: 1

    Everyone gets used to doing things a certain way, and gets irritated when things are improved.

    An example among data-entry types is being able to use keyboard shortcuts vs having to use a mouse, It slows them down to have to use a mouse.

    Another is the Microsoft Ribbon, where people had the old menu system totally memorized, and suddenly couldn't find anything because it had been "improved" and "re-arranged for you convenience". Instead of making it an option that you could toggle, it was a mandatory upgrade.

    This is totally irritating, especially when the new version has improvements that are geared to the enterprise, or software profit margins. I have talked to too many people who would routinely tell me this. This is a minor point of contention.

    I still have an old computer that works just fine thank you, and run an old word-processor without a lot of this extra fluff. Heck, George R. Martin uses an old dos word processor because it is more convenient for him.

    In this context, I am reminded of the old video about choices in spaghetti sauce. turns out, that in the world of spaghetti sauce, there is no one perfect spaghetti sauce, despite decades of advertising to the contrary. The truth is that there are many perfect spaghetti sauces (chunky, vegetable, extra spicy, etc) and you get more sales by catering to the individual tastes of people. Which is why we now have multiple varieties of sauces, etc on the shelves these days.

    You can watch the full video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    Large companies like MIcrosoft are still in pursuit of "the perfect software" or "the perfect user interface" when they should give users options and choices when it comes to user interfaces and performance behavior. There is no one best interface, etc. just like there is not one best spaghetti sauce. While there should be an update for security reasons, etc. what does that have to do with the sort of an interface a person likes?

    Similarly, there can be genuine product improvements when you do things a certain way, but also it is merely the pursuit of the cool and novel vs actual improvement. I upgrade systems because I need a certain functionality, and sometimes it is a royal pain when I cannot

    I am a constant crank about software as a service. Especially if I can do what I need and keep a system running well for many many years, so that it is cheaper than paying a yearly fee.

    --
    "It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
  89. The Medium Is the Message by GRPNAM+CMEXEC · · Score: 1

    To really see where "why would you want that at all" or "nobody needs that" or "the software is fine as it is" or such ilk come from, I recommend reading "Understanding Media" by Marshall McLuhan.

    --
    United States
  90. Ask Slashdot: How would you shitpost? by allo · · Score: 1

    Hey, making up a "syndrome", even with cool acronym (btw. why didn't you try to fit it into DISMISS?) may be a start, but your post is just a 3/10 on the logarithmic troll scale.

  91. Re:Because I use 50+ different softwares each day! by allo · · Score: 1

    > Ever thought that your workflow may need improvement?
    And when my workflow needs improvement this means YOU should decide how i need to change it?
    Give me more options, but DO NOT change how it works for me now. An upgrade may give me the chance to change the workflow, but MUST NOT change it without my consent.
    This is what many softwares get wrong, i.e. MS Windows and Mozilla Firefox.

  92. Re:Because modern day updates are often lobotomies by allo · · Score: 1

    > Use standard buttons, standard borders, standard colors, standard fonts, standard everything. Don't deviate from the standard, unless you really have to.
    The problem is, the projects changed the standards to utter bullshit.

    checkbox? Too easy, make it a slider! Write to the left and right, what the directions mean? Too ease, write it below the sliding part. Yeah, who cares, that moving the slider to the side with the text "ON" now turns it off and shows OFF on the inactive side. We color it to show, if it is active (like checkboxes before). But lets not make it obvious, choose the colors so, that the user first needs to see both states, to decide if he thinks the thing is currently active or inactive.

    Android, Gnome, i look at you.

  93. Re:Some people are just naturally contrarian by Voyager529 · · Score: 1

    I'll defend Winamp a bit on this front for a few reasons...

    1. The download installer is 10MB. A kitchen-sink installation is 50MB. In 2017. The installer for VLC is 30MB, and a kitchen sink install of that is 122MB. iTunes is over 100MB for the installer. Winamp may be bigger than it used to be, but it's still very comfortably on the left of the bell curve - its full installer takes less disk space than the amount of RAM needed by the Pandora website.
    2. They've got a custom installer. Don't want the visualizations or CD ripper support or video playback modules? You can opt out of installing them. The 'lite' profile is under 10MB installed. It doesn't play video or support 'modern' skins or have a media library, but if that's a feature rather than a bug, it far eschews iTunes's utter lack of custom install options (oh, you don't have an iPhone and didn't want five services starting with your computer now? sucks to be you!).
    3. Truly opt-out of data collection.
    4. I don't ever think I've had Winamp crash.
    5. Though I hate the Bento skin and its propensity to assume I want the library displayed rather than a small windowshade, every version for the last 20 years has shipped with the 'classic' skin, and short of the added menu options, has looked and worked exactly the same, requiring zero relearning on the part of the user unless they explicitly wished to use a different skin.

    So no, the new versions haven't been coded by demoscene savants who could have fit it on a floppy disk with room to spare, but it's still relatively small, functional, stable, and familiar - adjectives that are very infrequent to use when describing most software today.

  94. DIMMS? by maestroX · · Score: 2
    Oh for christ sake, this is just an attempt at 15 minutes of fame.
    Try arguing someone in the checkout line about your improvement on his grocery list, what do you expect?
    If you want people to do things *you* want, you either:
    1. convince them,
    2. pay them what they want, or
    3. coerce them by force or extortion.

    Really, kindergarten stuff.

  95. Re:People have workflows. (exactly) by King_TJ · · Score: 2

    I often see people asking why so many users are willing to keep shelling out all the money it costs for products like Adobe Acrobat Pro, when free or inexpensive commercial or shareware alternatives are all over the place that would allow you to edit a PDF document and save a modified copy. Same goes for Adobe Photoshop, or even Microsoft Office.

    The answer is most cases is that the familiarity makes it worthwhile. I mean, yes, in a minority of cases, you actually have users who need advanced features or functionality that's not provided by any of the alternatives. But I'd say the vast majority of the time, it's simply that someone spent years using those "name brand" products for the work they do, and switching to something else that has menu options in totally different places, and toolbars with different icons for the functions they're after doesn't seem like a good value to them.

  96. because human beings are inherently short-sighted by morethanapapercert · · Score: 1
    As a rule, people hate change, unless it was their idea in the first place or they can see how it furthers their own goals/principles/ideologies. Look how people argued and fought against lightning rods of all things, because people believed it encroached on divine prerogatives. As another example, many people in many countries fought bitterly to try and prevent the adoption of a provably superior system of weights and measures. Many folks in the US still hate the very idea of converting over to match what has now become the world standard.

    As for the specific example of software; you're talking about changing a tool they use, possibly one they use every day in their job. While a suggested change may add a useful feature or greatly improve work-flow, they are afraid they will have to learn more about the tool they have come to take for granted. (There are good reasons why Linus Torvalds rants so scathingly when developers make changes that break userspace or user workflows after all)

    If it was just a bug patch, those are usually invisible to the majority of users. For those affected by the bug, affects them in the more subtle sense of negative evidence. (in other words, people really notice when something breaks, but when something doesn't break like it used to, that is harder to notice and appreciate) However; from your description, you are primarily advocating adding features or explicitly changing work flows (even if in minor ways). Without more specific information, I certainly can't judge the possible merits of your suggestions. At minimum though, I think your suggestions would require :

    1) Adding items to menus, possibly adding new menus altogether. That requires the users learn these new options. With enough new menu items, the devs may decide to revamp the whole look and feel just to drive home the idea that the software has changed and to prove to their bosses that they are actually adding something meaningful to the code. {I'm looking at you Microsoft Office 2007},

    2) Changing or adding to the underlying mechanics of the application, which runs the risk of adding whole new sets of bugs to what is hopefully a previously stable release.

    3) Convincing the software company or developers that your changes are positive enough, and in enough demand by the user base to justify devoted the time, eyeballs and above all Money to making your changes. Keep in mind that quite often, once an application has been released and the initial flood of user reports have ebbed, most dev teams get cut down, programmers reassigned to other projects and so on. A few are sometimes kept for bug chasing, something which takes proportionally much more time than new code development. The few bug chasers (the code monkey kind, get your mind out of the gutter) will push back against creeping feature-itis and managers will often just decide to add your suggestion to the list for the dev team of the next major version to consider.

    --
    I need a wheelchair van for my son. Help me get the word out. https://www.gofundme.com/wheelchair-van-for-jj
  97. Successful products are swimming in suggestions. by shess · · Score: 1

    My experience with successful products is that they get a ton of suggestions which fall into one of two buckets:

    1) The suggestion is just plain dumb, either completely unrelated to the project, or showing a gross misunderstanding of the goals of the project.
    2) The suggestion is obvious, but very hard to implement.

    The reason this is the case is because with a successfully project, all of the obvious and easy suggestions have already been implemented. All that's left are the impossible ones and the ones which don't make sense.

    [Here I use "successful" to mean "Enough people use it and work on it that people constantly volunteer suggestions without volunteering patches."]

  98. Market Forces by Sir+Realist · · Score: 1

    Simple. The existing user is happy if the software does not change, and continues to do what they want it to do without them having to learn anything new. They don't care about new features, they just want it to keep doing the old ones in the same way. The company makes money if their software changes enough over time that people have to keep buying new copies. There are a bunch of different ways to accomplish this (e.g. changing file formats - aka Officescation - so that earlier versions can't cope with the default file format of newer versions) but they want to make the minimum changes necessary to sell the software again, so they don't waste resources fixing things that aren't broke.

    No one wants to make it easier to use for new users. There's no money in it. Old users will find the old interface - and absolutely nothing else - to be easy to use, because they already know how it works. New users are stuck solving a problem, and are forced to learn something no matter what. They don't have the choice, and will spend whatever time is necessary to solve their problem, in the process becoming the next round of "now I know how to make it work; just don't touch anything" voters. In the meantime, the harder the system was to learn, the more likely that the people invested in it will want to leverage their existing knowledge rather than learn a new system, so the more likely they are to become "loyal" customers.

    Seriously. Just google "wordstar keybindings" if you don't believe me.

    (This post was written in emacs. I rest my case.)

  99. Emotional investment by Corneil · · Score: 1

    People feel like you devalue their emotional investment in struggling to learn how to use the dysfunctional software.

    --
    He who experiments learns much but reboots/reinstalls often.
  100. Time Invested by GreyLurk · · Score: 1

    It's pretty simple... Most software users don't see the software as an abstract thing that can be better or worse, they see it as a tool they use to perform a task. Their goal isn't to use the software, it's to get their task done, and any change to the software (even a small one that benefits lots of other people) means that they will have to invest time in learning this new feature, which will take away from the time that they have to do the task that they want to get done.

    It's a pretty straight forward calculation: I use Word to write school reports. I don't care that adding a step to the save dialog which other users (or even me) to do things in a more "logical" fashion. I've got my process, and I've probably even got some procedure in place to deal with the "inefficiency" that this new feature fixes. So if you make that change, then suddenly my old process will stop working, and i'll have to take an unplanned hour or two out of my day to learn how to use this new feature that you've implemented, when I was already on a time crunch for the thing I was doing. Sure, maybe your new feature will save me 8 hours over the course of the year, but the short term impact to my schedule is *really* frustrating.

  101. Unix Philosophy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy

    "Make each program do one thing well. To do a new job, build afresh rather than complicate old programs by adding new features".

  102. Re:There's plenty of good reasons No There's not by torstenvl · · Score: 1

    I wish I had mod points. My frustration with arbitrary, whimsical, and capricious software changes over the past 5 years is beyond my ability to articulate. Everything from an obsession with "flat" to hiding central features as Easter eggs - it all just makes me wish there were someone with the authority and sense to fire these people who seem so hellbent on destroying usability.

  103. Re: Winning the Internet by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

    People are still doing anything serious with QuickBasic?

    --
    SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
  104. Writing, technical and otherwise by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

    Wow, you wrote that entire rant over a single letter. That's pathetic.

    Language is an art, like painting. Technical language is an art where miscommunication leads to real world problems, and where evidence of lack of expertise leads to well justified lack of confidence up front.

    With language, as with painting, you can paint like a master, or you can finger-paint like an addled child.

    Which do you think will carry you further in life and in your career? Which do you think will result in more actual pathos?

    --
    I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
  105. If its not broke... by TomGreenhaw · · Score: 1

    don't fix it.

    --
    Greed is the root of all evil.
  106. Gonna switch your keyboard to Dvorak now... by JoeDuncan · · Score: 1

    Great! So you're totally fine if I swap all your QWERTY keyboards for Dvorak ones while you sleep?

    Dvorak is clearly a better keyboard layout, so your user experience and productivity are going to be SO MUCH BETTER!

    No, no, you don't need to thank me! Just trying to be helpful is all.

  107. Re:There's plenty of good reasons No There's not by JoeDuncan · · Score: 1

    Same