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Security Analyst Concludes Windows 10 Enterprise 'Tracks Too Much' (xato.net)

A viral Twitter rant about Windows 10 Enterprise supposedly ignoring users' privacy settings has since been clarified. "I made mistakes on my original testing and therefore saw more connections than I should have," writes IT security analyst Mark Burnett, "including some to Google ads." But his qualified results -- quoted below -- are still critical of Microsoft:
  • You can cut back even more using the Windows Restricted Traffic Limited Functionality Baseline but break many things.
  • Settings can be set wrong if you aren't paying attention. Also, settings are not consistent and can be confusing to beginners.
  • You are opted-in to just about everything by default and have to set hundreds of settings to opt out, even on an Enterprise Windows system. Sometimes multiple settings for the same feature. Most Microsoft documentation discourages opting out and warns of a less optimal experience... But you can't completely opt-out. Windows still tracks too much.
  • Home and Professional users are much worse off due to limitations of some settings and lack of an IT staff... I'm not saying ditch Windows. I'm saying let's fix this. If we can't fix it, then we ditch Windows.

284 comments

  1. Defective by design? by El+Cubano · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You are opted-in to just about everything by default and have to set hundreds of settings to opt out, even on an Enterprise Windows system. Sometimes multiple settings for the same feature. Most Microsoft documentation discourages opting out and warns of a less optimal experience... But you can't completely opt-out. Windows still tracks too much.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this essentially the definition of "defective by design?"

    The increasingly hostile and draconian moves by Microsoft simply serve to prove that the majority of Microsoft customers are in a co-dependent relationship with Microsoft: afraid that no matter how bad things are with Microsoft, they will be worse without Microsoft. It must suck to live like that.

    I know, I know. Some people cannot ditch Microsoft, but most people can and it would cost them only marginally more effort (and probably less in many cases) than they expend dealing with all the crap Microsoft is throwing at their customers these days.

    1. Re: Defective by design? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most people don't give a crap about use privacy.

      Proof: just a small uprising (mostly online by the same people who complain) when net neutrality and privacy rules were obliterated

    2. Re: Defective by design? by teg · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Most people don't give a crap about use privacy.

      Proof: just a small uprising (mostly online by the same people who complain) when net neutrality and privacy rules were obliterated

      More proof:

      All of which have a business idea of knowing as much as possible about you, so they can monetize you effectively.

    3. Re: Defective by design? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People already proved they don't care by using Google services.

    4. Re: Defective by design? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Privacy is a form of security. And when given the choice between security and dancing pigs, a lot of people choose dancing pigs.

    5. Re:Defective by design? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      just wait til the next version.

      you believed microsoft when they said windows 10 would be the last one you'd ever buy?

      you were *technically* correct in doing so. the last one you will ever "buy"......

      because subscription windows 365 (R) is right around the corner.

      all the pain plus getting to pay for it every year! i can't wait!!

    6. Re:Defective by design? by thegarbz · · Score: 5, Informative

      Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this essentially the definition of "defective by design?"

      Defective by design is about intentionally not performing the intended function. For all its flaws, Windows 10 still runs windows software just as well as it ever did.

      "Deceptive by design" now that's a definition I can get behind.

    7. Re:Defective by design? by Elledan · · Score: 5, Informative

      There is a way to fix Windows and remove all control from Microsoft. This way also doesn't involve Linux and kin.

      If the ReactOS project got even 10% of the commits and money that Linux receives, it might soon become the Open Source alternative to even Windows 10, allowing everyone to ditch Windows without having to change the software they use.

      Everyone would be better off, except for Microsoft, of course, but that's their own problem.

      --
      Site & blog: http://www.mayaposch.com
    8. Re:Defective by design? by geekmux · · Score: 1

      You are opted-in to just about everything by default and have to set hundreds of settings to opt out, even on an Enterprise Windows system. Sometimes multiple settings for the same feature. Most Microsoft documentation discourages opting out and warns of a less optimal experience... But you can't completely opt-out. Windows still tracks too much.

      Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this essentially the definition of "defective by design?...

      If you're looking for what's defective, that would be a society that happily gives up their digital soul in exchange for paying nothing for products and services. If you recall, Microsoft initially gave away Windows 10 for free in order to accelerate deployment.

      And the free gimmick works every fucking time because consumers are far too ignorant to understand that they no longer buy products for a reason; they are the product.

      The popularity of the free price tag also goes to show just how much consumers give a shit about privacy. In other words, they don't.

      Just wanted to clarify where the defect truly is, and the level of effort it's gonna take to fix it.

    9. Re: Defective by design? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Whats worse? The company that gives you something free and takes your personal info in return or the company that charges you and still takes your personal information?

      Hint: Windows ain't free and you dont have to use android to use google products.

    10. Re:Defective by design? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      at this point, we'd be better off committing fully to WINE, working towards much better application compatibility, than starting from scratch -- something that will never be compatible 'enough' with windows. microsoft would see to it, and has a long history of shitting on competing products, e.g. word perfect, dr-dos, among others.

      if codeweavers and the rest of the WINE team had the balls to do it, they'd rework WINE to optionally use actual binaries from windows to greatly improve compatibility, similar to how some versions of OS/2 worked. let the user sort out their own license issues (virtually all PCs sold include a windows license anyway, even if it is replaced right away). best of both worlds.. and much better than going the other way with linux-on-windows from microsoft.

    11. Re:Defective by design? by zifn4b · · Score: 1

      Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this essentially the definition of "defective by design?"

      Nope. It was designed that way so your data could be harvested and aggregated with everyone else's to be sold. It's a very profitable business.

      --
      We'll make great pets
    12. Re:Defective by design? by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      afraid that no matter how bad things are with Microsoft, they will be worse without Microsoft.

      Also known as "battered user syndrome".

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    13. Re:Defective by design? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      If the ReactOS project got even 10% of the commits and money that Linux receives, it might soon become the Open Source alternative to even Windows 10, allowing everyone to ditch Windows without having to change the software they use.

      Even Microsoft doesn't know how complex Microsoft products work. They write specifications that literally say "do what the software does here". There is literally no chance that any reasonable amount of money or code commits could make ReactOS even a 90% replacement for Windows. It's not even 5% now. You can crash it just by booting it.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    14. Re:Defective by design? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The 'Poison Pill' killer app to feed MS telemetry a whole bunch of BS has not been invented yet. There is a shutup windows app. Better to have some firewall that blocks traffic, or scrambles it before re-sending. Sending a person their own naked photos will certainly up the ante as it were.

    15. Re: Defective by design? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Swillden?

    16. Re: Defective by design? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But the Google services are free to use, unlike Windows. When Microsoft asks 100 Eur for a Windows license people do not expect to be spied by the OS.

    17. Re:Defective by design? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is a way to fix Windows and remove all control from Microsoft. This way also doesn't involve Linux and kin.

      Ah, good old FreeBSD.

    18. Re: Defective by design? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WINE is a tremendous security risk. The project doesn't give two shits either. I'd advise you to forget all about it and use a decent virtual machine. There's shit in the wild that will absolutely own a system with WINE on it.

    19. Re:Defective by design? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the ReactOS project got even 10% of the commits and money that Linux receives, ...

      With money, comes corruption & fraud, and eventually ReactOS becomes another Windows 10.

    20. Re: Defective by design? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      This "you are the product" meme is stupid. When you watch TV, you are not the product even though they sell advertising on it. The relationship is clearly more complex than that.

      In Google's case, there is relatively little lock-in to their products. Farm animals can't leave, they belong to the farmer. It's trivial to switch to another search engine, to another mapping site, to another email provider. Google doesn't even mind if you install uBlock and Privacy Badger from their official Chrome extension repo. If Google annoys users too much, or doesn't offer them something compelling to stay, their advertising business becomes worthless.

      Yes, they are selling advertising targeted ads. But they don't allow individual users to be targeted or for advertisers to access user data directly, only in aggregate via the tools that Google provides. That's not a simple "you are the product" relationship.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    21. Re:Defective by design? by Highdude702 · · Score: 5, Funny

      You can crash it just by booting it.

      I see that got that part of windows to work correctly... O.o

    22. Re:Defective by design? by hey! · · Score: 1

      "Defective by design" is another way of saying the vendor and client have conflicting interests in their requirements for the product.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    23. Re: Defective by design? by geek · · Score: 0

      Woooooosh

      Right over your head. The TV analogy is wrong on every level. Google is collecting YOUR information and selling it. The TV is simply placing ads before your eyes. How the fuck do you not understand that? I mean it's like 3rd grade level deduction.

    24. Re: Defective by design? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Interesting, you don't know how advertising works...

      So in both Google and TV's cases, they collect information about the people using their services. They aggregate it and use it to sell advertising space to advertisers. TV has a harder time gathering the information than Google does, but it still does...

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    25. Re: Defective by design? by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 1

      Win10 was free for a large portion of the install base...

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    26. Re: Defective by design? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have you seen what people WILLINGLY post on Facebook, Twitter, etc? While not a fan of MS, it is in the users DNA. Everybody here always complains, just stop using windows and move on. It seems most of everybody complaining around here's already did that. How about hose that don't know better? Even with a Linux box they would still spills the beans...

    27. Re:Defective by design? by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Very true on all points. I do however know of one pretty large organization (> 50K employees), that has scrapped all plans to move to Win10, due to both security concerns (against MS modeled as attacker) and the constant UI changes. As soon as Win7 enterprise becomes non-viable, they will move everybody to web-terminals (that will most assuredly not run an MS OS). Since many corporate application landscapes these days are web-based anyways, they cannot be the only ones planning that.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    28. Re:Defective by design? by Kjella · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If the ReactOS project got even 10% of the commits and money that Linux receives, it might soon become the Open Source alternative to even Windows 10, allowing everyone to ditch Windows without having to change the software they use.

      Said no person with experience reverse engineering ever, at no point has trying to chase your proprietary competitor's blobs ever worked. WINE does an okay job running some Windows software, LibreOffice does an okay job opening some MS Office documents but you'll never repeat every quirk, bug and obscure functionality. You'll never get a fully working replacement for DirectX that isn't DirectX, not without 10x the resources Microsoft used to write it to reverse engineer it. That's not 10% of the Linux resources, probably more like 1000%. The only workable solution long term is to get people over to new, open standards like web apps written for W3C compliant browsers instead of IE6, games using Vulkan instead of DirectX, cross platform tools like qBitTorrent instead of uTorrent and so on.

      Look at git, the version control software to develop Windows is now created by Linus Torvalds, what better endorsement can you get than the competition eating your dogfood? Look at all the cloud solutions booming because you can just spin up another Linux instance on demand without licensing worries. You don't win by mimicking the old, you win by delivering something new and better. And even if someone builds proprietary stuff on top of it (OS X, Android, Tivo etc.) you keep gaining ground. Even if the pace is somewhat glacial I never had the feeling open source went backwards, even if you look at stuff like Firefox then Chrome is mostly open source through Chromium. It would be a helluva lot less work to fork that than to start over. Tools like ASP.NET Core is being open sourced, Apple has open sourced Swift, for more and more of low-level infrastructure closed source just isn't kosher anymore.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    29. Re: Defective by design? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You still had to pay for windows to get that 'free' windows 10.

    30. Re: Defective by design? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      When Microsoft asks 100 Eur for a Windows license people do not expect to be spied by the OS.

      When a known drug dealer offers you "cough sweets", you expect to get Mentos?"

    31. Re: Defective by design? by Kjella · · Score: 2

      No, the meme is just fine. Ad-supported companies sell eyeballs, that is the product weather you like it or not. If the grain level is coarse that's no problem, like if you're a radio channel and play country music you know you have a certain audience and your advertisers know that too. The problem is that via electronic registration the grain level is extremely fine, via tracking cookies, accounts and loyalty cards they build up massive individual profiles. You can of course hand-wave and say the data will never be used in a way that's problematic: "But they don't allow individual users to be targeted or for advertisers to access user data directly, only in aggregate via the tools that Google provides."

      Until it's leaked, hacked, sabotaged, there's an inside man, the police/courts/three letter agencies demands to see it, they hand out too much information, they give an unreliable subcontractor access today or at any point in the future. I work with a similar but different set of data, where we produce aggregate or de-identified data for external use but the grain data can be quite easily tied to an individual. First and foremost we're constrained by law, if someone passed the "Stop terrorism, fuck privacy act" it wouldn't be all that anonymous anymore. Secondly, we're guarding it like gold because there's really no un-sharing the information should it ever get out, but who knows when a hacker could find an Achilles heel. Third, it's hard to avoid every corner case where your profile stands out in a way that could be tied to an individual.

      I'm not going to be completely paranoid about it but the safest kind of data is the type you never generate. Everything else can be collected, cross-linked, use and abused. Certainly for good, that's often why we're doing it in the first place but the road to hell is also paved with good intentions. If you live in an authoritarian regime the future is pretty grim because they're constantly improving their surveillance, often going hand in hand with convenience which is why Facebook etc. is so popular. As long as you're not doing anything they don't like...

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    32. Re: Defective by design? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      TVs have a harder time... and Google collects a MUCH MUCH larger base of information.

      Google is at a point where it can connect Ads and what you do in real life. They can connect ad campaigns and credit card purchases.

      Interesting YOU don't know how big of a step that is and how much more invasive that is compared to TV Aggregation.

      They both track you... but the breadth and depth of each is vastly different.

    33. Re: Defective by design? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's shit in the wild that will absolutely own a system with WINE on it.

      Citation needed.

    34. Re:Defective by design? by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1

      Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this essentially the definition of "defective by design?"

      Defective by design is about intentionally not performing the intended function. For all its flaws, Windows 10 still runs windows software just as well as it ever did.

      "Deceptive by design" now that's a definition I can get behind.

      And, more to the point, the actual purpose of Windows 10 is to spy on the users and generate revenue from that data for Microsoft. Performing OS functions is a side-effect. In this respect, Windows 10 is functioning as designed.

      --
      It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    35. Re:Defective by design? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly! Microsoft has always been very deceptive about Windows 10. They used highly unethical and deceptive malware tactics to trick people into upgrading from Windows 7 and 8. They have never issued a clear statement defining exactly what data Windows 10 collects or the purpose for that data collection. Microsoft has publicly admitted that all of the data collection in Windows 10 cannot be turned off, even if they wanted to (and of course they really REALLy don't want to!). Many users report that with every update, user settings, especially settings where users have opted out of as much data collection as they can, those settings are changed back to their MS defaults (all data collection turned on).

      Windows 10 is spyware, malware, and virus all rolled into one, and masquerading as an Operating System!

    36. Re: Defective by design? by mschwanke97402 · · Score: 1

      This "you are the product" meme is stupid. When you watch TV, you are not the product even though they sell advertising on it. The relationship is clearly more complex than that.

      In Google's case, there is relatively little lock-in to their products. Farm animals can't leave, they belong to the farmer. It's trivial to switch to another search engine, to another mapping site, to another email provider. Google doesn't even mind if you install uBlock and Privacy Badger from their official Chrome extension repo. If Google annoys users too much, or doesn't offer them something compelling to stay, their advertising business becomes worthless.

      Google is very hard to avoid. You can eschew Chrome, GMail, Maps, Earth, etc. You can switch to DuckDuckGo for search. But Google still has their ads and trackers all over the web. They have deals with online vendors to collect your purchase data. They claim anonymization, innocent intent, etc. If you do use your services then they scan your email, web history, internet bookmarks, etc. as well.

      Whether they sell your information directly or merely rent access to its benefit they are still in the business of selling access to an increasingly detailed profile that is you. They also do it in such a manner that there is a disconnect from the services they provide and the advertising they place. They don't really run any risk of annoying their users. Google ads don't run on Google services, they run all over the rest of the web.

      Since I decided TV was pretty much junk I have cancelled my cable service and I have not connected my smart TV to the Internet, either. Explain how they track my broadcast TV viewing again? I know they have TV ratings services that provide some very broad demographics to advertisers but, really, TV advertises to fairly unknown users.

      There is a difference. Google really is selling me. TV is selling ads.

    37. Re: Defective by design? by misnohmer · · Score: 1

      Do you have a phone, or a computer running Google products? Did you know that your phone can listen to what you are watching on TV? There are embedded audio markers in ads, shows, etc. Ever wonder how if you search for an actor on your phone, somehow Google prioritizes the completion results with the actor you just watched on TV (from your DVR, so time shifted)? Search the Internet about ads tracking via audio if you want to get more paranoid.

    38. Re: Defective by design? by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure cookies even matter anymore. Every site reports your ip and what you view to goog or amazon and it's stored. This fingerprints you, and if your ip address changes, they can reassign you purely by watching for that set of sites, which is essentially unique.

      Cookies, gmail login, etc. hastrn this but are not really required. I am sure the NSA and so on do exactly the same thing just monitoring traffic flowing through their strategically-placed servers.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    39. Re: Defective by design? by Brockmire · · Score: 3, Informative

      You don't understand why Google became Google. They don't sell YOUR data, they tell advertisers THEY know a guy who might want their widget. They'll take a cut for showing their ad for their widget. This is different than selling a list of names and contacts where some small percentage is actually interested, this gets higher results because the targets generally are interested in the widget and have higher buy through rates.

    40. Re: Defective by design? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah, it's cool you talk about reverse engineering and then prove you have no clue whatsoever

      reinstatiation of instances that are completely patched (when u talk ec2), ignoring os issues (when you talk lambda)... you have zero fucking clue

    41. Re: Defective by design? by minstrelmike · · Score: 1

      And you don't need much of buy-thru rate. Actual physical spam mailing companies buy live addresses of real people and fill their physical mailboxes with junk mail that costs money to print, package and mail. And apparently it is profitable at a 1-3% "click" rate.

      So email and e-ads are far more profitable since there is no physical costs. You might want to look up buying a direct mail list that conains your address if you're worried about security. It's rather appalling.

    42. Re: Defective by design? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With IP based TV services (xDSL and Fiber Optic) available now, your watching habits are being collected and sold just like your surfing habits have been in the past and are being now.
        Analog cable TV service is getting harder to find as well. Cable companies have been moving their user base to digital cable for over a decade.
        In the past your viewing habits were monitored by the Nielson's, with Digital Cable and IP based TV service the Nielson's have become obsolete.

    43. Re: Defective by design? by ilsaloving · · Score: 1

      The problem is that this phenomenon is hardly new.

      Examples:
      Cable TV
      Magazine subscriptions

      Companies have been eating and keeping their cake for a long time now, and there has yet to be an uproar about it. Of course, there's a big difference between then and now, in that the sheer scope of the data being collection is now mind-boggling, but I still don't anticipate the average person to give enough of a shit about privacy to care.

      People don't seem to care about anything until it directly impacts them. For example, how many proselytizers are there for, say, people who have been victims of identity theft? Or whose kids died from drunk driving? Etc etc? Virtually none of these people were up in arms until *after* something truly bad happened to them. Even then, they often refuse to accept that they bore any responsibility for what happened, like a once neighbour of mine who was pissed their ISP cut them off and refused to accept that they were responsible for taking care of the malware on their machine.

      I do what I can to protect myself and the immediate people I am responsible for. But I've learned first hand, and repeatedly, that you can't help people who aren't willing to help themselves.

    44. Re: Defective by design? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Google's case, there is relatively little lock-in to their products. Farm animals can't leave, they belong to the farmer.

      OK if this is the case then why can't I use an Android phone WITHOUT a google account? Farm animals can't leave.

      Why is it when I do use an andorid device copies of my email from my PRIVATELY OWNED SERVER are copied to google servers? Yes they do Wireshark doesn't lie.

      Google sells the collected data to third parties I would call this "you are the product".

      Watching ads on TV is far far different than man in the middling a person's mail server. Then selling that data to a third party.

      MS is just using the Google business model now.

    45. Re:Defective by design? by The+Wild+Norseman · · Score: 1

      If you're looking for what's defective, that would be a society that happily gives up their digital soul in exchange for paying nothing for products and services. If you recall, Microsoft initially gave away Windows 10 for free in order to accelerate deployment.

      Yes, true, but don't also forget to mention that during the giveaway, they pushed it on you, whether you wanted it or not. They even went out of their way to push it and make it so you couldn't easily decline their "generous" offer.

      --
      "A government is a body of people usually -- notably -- ungoverned." -Shepherd Book
    46. Re: Defective by design? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've never understood how MY information is worth anything. I've lied online for 17 years. I have so many aliases and bullshit profiles that I don't even know which lie points to the lying liar that's a lie.

    47. Re: Defective by design? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I doubt it. The post is way too short and he didn't mention several times that he works for Google.

  2. Win 7 SP 1 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Updates turned off, manually install KB3172605 and KB3020369 and you are good to go.

    1. Re:Win 7 SP 1 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Win 7 still keeps a shit ton of logs, but it doesn't upload those logs to M$ unless you add the telemetry and tracking updated. If you want to purge all the local copies of the usage logs copy the following text into a batch file and run it with Admin access on your win7 box:

      @echo off
      FOR /F "tokens=1,2*" %%V IN ('bcdedit') DO SET adminTest=%%V
      IF (%adminTest%)==(Access) goto noAdmin
      for /F "tokens=*" %%G in ('wevtutil.exe el') DO (call :do_clear "%%G")
      echo.
      echo Event Logs have been cleared! ^
      goto theEnd :do_clear
      echo clearing %1
      wevtutil.exe cl %1
      goto :eof :noAdmin
      echo You must run this script as an Administrator!
      echo ^ :theEnd
      pause>NUL

    2. Re: Win 7 SP 1 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Still closed source. And it will soon be EOL.

    3. Re:Win 7 SP 1 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If error reporting is on then the next time an application crashes a memory dump of that event is created and sent to Microsoft. So if your browser crashes all memory associated with that, including any credentials, is dumped and ex-filtrated.

  3. You can't fix this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The problem isn't Windows. The problem isn't even Microsoft.

    The problem is that we don't have strict laws governing the protection of user data. There needs to be serious and utter consequences for pulling this sort of shit. The sort of consequences that would make any shareholder board go "holy shit, let's not fucking do that". Until that happens, absolutely nothing is going to change. You might be able to pressure Microsoft into releasing a patch or two that appears to offer some sort of reprieve, but then they'll get back to doing exactly what they've been doing before, and probably torque down the screws just a little bit tighter while they're at it.

    Unfortunately, with the USA now gunning for net neutrality, I doubt anything like this would ever happen. Corporations have too much money and nobody gives a shit about the user. As long as the users keep paying for stuff (because they "have no choice" or don't want to slightly inconvenience themselves), nothing will ever change.

    So you better get used to it, because Windows 10 is just the start.

    1. Re:You can't fix this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      >What the security analyst forgets to mention is that the telemetry data sent to MS is anonymized.

      Yeah I work at a place where I sometimes get "anonymized" data. Let me tell you I can still easily find out who it was about.

      >I don't know how you would "protect" user data any better than that.

      Don't send it in the first place. There's no law in the universe that says that you have to send it. Just stop sending it.

      >A lot of new vehicles today upload data to the manufacturer and this data does include enough information to identify the owner.

      And that has to stop.

      >If Windows was really as bad as the OS political activists say MS would never have turned into one of the most successful companies on the planet. There has never been anything stopping someone from creating a platform to compete with MS.

      What? Halloween documents etc. Microsoft has been colluding with OEMs to stop exactly that. Also, they break stuff on purpose. What are you talking about? Some parallel universe where Microsoft is not an asshole?

      >All the early potential competition willingly sold their technologies to MS and took the money and ran.

      Who?

      >The applications that try to compete with MS Office suite are buggy clones that the Linux faithful promote as "good enough".

      True. But that's in part because the specifications by Microsoft are incomplete. At least by now they were forced to release them - earlier it was *all* reverse engineering.

      >And users do not run OS's they run applications. In the business world a competent IT can configure a stable and safe OS platform. Linux is not magically safe or stable by default and requires someone knowledgeable to configure the OS.

      I agree.

    2. Re: You can't fix this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      The free market is anti profit. Profit, in a free market, is evidence that there is an inefficiency in the market and that demand is there but unfilled. EVERY MARKET would have zero profit in a properly free and functional market, because someone could come in and set their price below the price of another who is making profit and steal their customers away, and if that were still profitable, then the cycle repeats until the marginal cost is reached where there is no way to take customers by charging less without losing money on the transaction.

      Free markets are anti profit. Are you anti-free-markets?

    3. Re: You can't fix this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's silly logic. There will be improved old and new technology, people's wants will change and differences in geography count as well. The problem is we don't live in a free market. Money(debt) creation is mostly in private hands (a club with very restricted access) and it is in part due to the unbalances of money creation that you have today's corporations and their pals the world's governments screwing average people every which way.

    4. Re:You can't fix this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Until it gets to Microsoft and some disgruntled employee decides to leak your Data...

    5. Re:You can't fix this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, a law wont happen. There's way way too much money involved in selling user data.

      Google does 90-ish billion a year. Facebook 5-ish. That shit is great for the economy. It's not manufacturing so there's no pollution, environmentalists off your back.

      It's free money! No downside. All you have to do is... sell out everyone's privacy. Why do you think they're going forward with ISPs selling everyone's data? Because woo, free money!

      If only there were some other way to redistribute wealth. Ya'know, back from the unregulated monopolies bleeding the public dry.

    6. Re:You can't fix this. by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Yeah I work at a place where I sometimes get "anonymized" data. Let me tell you I can still easily find out who it was about.

      Then it's poorly anonymized. This isn't some checkbox, tick here to anonymize all code. I work at a place where wifi is secured by a standard that can be cracked in under 5 seconds, that doesn't mean secure wifi doesn't exist.

      Don't send it in the first place. There's no law in the universe that says that you have to send it. Just stop sending it.

      Don't send user data. Don't provide user feedback. 1yr later: Users: "Hey MS why did you make this change, all your users use this function, do you not know how we use the systems you provide!?! #theyshouldhaveknown" Telemetry isn't collected because someone has too much disk space and it needs to be filled with something.

      The rest of your post is quite on point.

    7. Re: You can't fix this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If he is anti-profit, we will put him on the terrorist list.

    8. Re: You can't fix this. by orbit500 · · Score: 3, Informative

      EU GDPR is set to stick a giant spanner in windows 10 as it is doing with Facebook and Google data slurping. Check out the current cock blocking Redmond is getting on this and we're still a year out. Fines range up to 4% of global trade turnover, more than enough to brown trouser the board. Either they comply or quit the EU market. And that means any inbound EU data handling, not just EU based licence holders.

    9. Re:You can't fix this. by geekmux · · Score: 1

      The problem isn't Windows. The problem isn't even Microsoft.

      The problem is that we don't have strict laws governing the protection of user data...Corporations have too much money and nobody gives a shit about the user.

      Uh, not quite.

      The root cause of all this is users don't give a shit about privacy.

      That is the true problem.

      That is the reason Windows and many other products are given away for "free", turning the user into the product.

      That is the reason nothing will ever change. Users have to actually give a shit in order to start demanding strict laws to protect them.

    10. Re: You can't fix this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The reality is that most users have no concept of the concerns or risks discussed in this article. If someone sat down and explained to these users in lay terms, then you would probably get a different response. Most users are simply ignorant. And they most certainly are not reading /.

    11. Re:You can't fix this. by nine-times · · Score: 1

      The problem is that we don't have strict laws governing the protection of user data.

      I disagree. Don't get me wrong, I'm usually not a proponent of the idea of "the invisible hand", but I think the larger problem is vendor lock-in. I think there should be more laws to protect user data, but more importantly, I think we need to find ways to make sure people have real options.

      For example, to this day, I can't use a non-Windows operating system for my work computer. Or at least, I need a Windows VM to run a few Windows applications for which I have no non-Windows version available. Ideally, operating systems should be able to compete on features, rather than on the applications that are available on them. To me, this is the real problem, since I don't have the option to say, "I don't like Microsoft's privacy policies, so I'll switch to a different OS.

      I don't know the best way to accomplish that. Maybe Microsoft should be required to publish all of their own APIs and protocols so that systems like WINE and Samba can be perfected?

      I've always been a proponent of the general idea that, in order to be eligible for copyright protection, companies should be required to submit their source code to a public organization, and the source should then be automatically submitted to the public domain after some circumstances are met (e.g. the original vendor is no longer selling, updating, or supporting it). In my mind, Windows XP should have its source released. That would allow someone other than Microsoft to provide a perfect compatibility layer, or a new OS based on the same code. It would even just allow someone else to pick up development and support of the old OS, now that Microsoft is no longer interested. If Microsoft is confident that Windows 10 is a real improvement over Windows XP, rather than just some new version that they're railroading people into for their own purposes, then releasing Windows XP code to the public domain shouldn't cause much harm to their bottom line.

    12. Re: You can't fix this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Haha.... too true. I keep banging on about privacy to everyone I know and their eyes immediately start to glaze over. Hopeless cause until they get their banking credentials or something similar stolen.

    13. Re:You can't fix this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem isn't Windows. The problem isn't even Microsoft.

      The problem is that we don't have strict laws governing the protection of user data. There needs to be serious and utter consequences for pulling this sort of shit.

      The problem is people are not all that well informed. We just elected President Snowflake for instance and there is no way in hell his chosen are going to side with an expansive definition of personal possessions to include this kind of data. I'd argue if we had a decent supreme court that upheld a more modern definition of personal possessions we would be in better shape.

      Still, the solution is not to bitch about the laws. The solution is for good people to run for government and for other good people to take the time to be well informed and reject the propaganda, wherever the source.... This is required at all levels, not just every four years for president.

    14. Re: You can't fix this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree, but even in countries with the best data privacy laws this is all still allowed. It will never be fixed at the government level.

      I think the best method would be to document the protocol methods and data formats used and write a bot that sends fake, but correctly formatted and believable data to poison their databases. Although they probably use activation ID's to prevent this somewhat, I bet you a doublecheeseburger a lot of the telemetry they collect does not in order to avoid issues with the shitty data privacy laws that do exist. This would also provide good research to see if they are violating said laws and could potentially help open up lawsuits. It's clear they are asking for it.

    15. Re:You can't fix this. by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      I'm still hopeful that we will see a Windows 10 N version for the EU, with this crap disabled.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    16. Re:You can't fix this. by swb · · Score: 2

      In a lot of ways, this almost begs for a kind of public health type of response.

      In years past, most people would have willfully chosen poisonous product X for its low cost and rejected more expensive non-poisonous product Y. Or they would have rejected tax increases for improved sanitation or water filtration for the same reasons. Or they chose the patent medicine with an opioid versus the one with just sugar.

      I don't know that we ever really made the masses more intelligent than they are now about these issues, on the whole. Everybody "knows" that some common medicine with opioids in it is risky, but I'd bet that even with this knowledge if you put tincture of laudanum in a cough and cold remedy it would become a best seller because it made people feel better.*

      The best you could do was try to sway the more intelligent members about the risks and hope that would be enough to influence law makers to change the rules in ways that prohibited the bad ingredients, fixed the sewage system or removed the addictive drugs.

      The larger problem here is constructing a public health type of argument that intelligent, non-technical people will understand and accept, in the hopes that these key influencers will be able to pass laws that force uniform standards for privacy or data collection. You'll never change the masses individual preference for free/cheap, you have to change the law to eliminate Microsoft, Apple or Google's ability to use this preference to exploit people for their own gain.

      (* There's a whole other side argument to be made as to whether this really would lead to widespread addiction among the population as a whole, or whether we're really just preventing an acute crisis among a small subset of the population. One of the risks of public health is over reach and excess risk aversion, imposing restrictions and costs to eliminate increasingly smaller threats.)

    17. Re: You can't fix this. by geekmux · · Score: 1

      The reality is that most users have no concept of the concerns or risks discussed in this article. If someone sat down and explained to these users in lay terms, then you would probably get a different response. Most users are simply ignorant. And they most certainly are not reading /.

      A different response? What utter bullshit.

      Users are told that weak passwords are a very common reason people get hacked and identities get stolen. So what do they do in response? Keep on using the same shitty passwords.

      Users demand many products be at zero cost to them, even though they've been told repeatedly the reason they are free. They've been told they ARE the product. Does that stop anyone from being used by these "free" products? Do they stop and take the time to read the EULA? Hell no.

      I stand by my original response. Users don't give a shit about privacy or security. Never have. Never will.

      This isn't mere "ignorance". This is willful ignorance. And it won't ever change.

    18. Re: You can't fix this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The reason thieves, hackers, cons, scammers etc are so successful is because people still believe they operate by bashing down the front door, which they rarely if ever do. Path of least resistance and least risk. Lateral movement... their end goal is often not you, but possibly a relative, friend, employer, bank, or company you have dealings with. Hell, it could also just be revenge, or out of malice. There are people in the world who assault or murder just for a flippant remark or disagreeable driving. What makes you think a hundred more out there wouldn't be willing to cause you or those related to you grief in other ways over trivial shit? Data privacy and security is important. Don't give them the chance. If you make it easy, sooner or later someone will take advantage.

    19. Re:You can't fix this. by gweihir · · Score: 1

      The EU is slow, but something is brewing. MS already had to make changes for the Swiss Data Privacy Commissioner and, since that guy is certainly talking to his EU counterparts, I am pretty sure that one was a test-balloon. Both the French and the Germans have already announced they are investigating. In the end, MS will have to switch all telemetry off by default, because what they are currently doing is illegal.

      EU law states that absolutely every data collection must have a positive agreement by an informed customer and if it is not fundamentally necessary to run an application, it must be off by default. And if they transfer personal data, that agreement must be on paper.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    20. Re: You can't fix this. by gweihir · · Score: 1

      As this process is slow, it may take until 2018 to happen. But they are definitely working on it, and I think this time around they will not take any crap from MS. And what MS is currently doing is already illegal, so the first thing we see may be that MS is hit with a massive fine and threatened with more and a potential prohibition on sales of their defective product.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    21. Re:You can't fix this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yeah I work at a place where I sometimes get "anonymized" data. Let me tell you I can still easily find out who it was about.

      Then it's poorly anonymized. This isn't some checkbox, tick here to anonymize all code. I work at a place where wifi is secured by a standard that can be cracked in under 5 seconds, that doesn't mean secure wifi doesn't exist.

      De-anonymization techniques are much better than you give them credit for. If you're collecting data of any worth, then you're collecting enough to re-identify the source with high confidence. You may not want or care to expend the effort to do so, but someone asking to purchase your data set certainly will, as the identity information is at least as valuable as the data set itself.

    22. Re:You can't fix this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, a law wont happen. There's way way too much money involved in selling user data.

      A law could still happen if less of this money found its way into the pockets of politicians. Unfortunately, most people are only interested in ensuring their team wins the election and no so much with what happens after that happens.

    23. Re:You can't fix this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the problem goes deeper than that, and you won't fix it with consumer protection laws.

      Why do so many people in power think it's ok to abuse others for their own personal gain? Small companies don't tend to think this way. You'll find more humanity among them than these giant orgs and government. You see them have rapport with their customers, give value to feedback, and will know at least some of them by name, perhaps even associate with them outside of a business environment.

      Once you go big, the detachment grows. Customers are no longer people, no longer neighbours, no longer members of your community, not someone you'll run into at your kid's school event and chat with. They're simply faceless, nameless, income sources with an account number and a dollar value attached to it.

      I'm not sure if it's an innate psychopathy in these people, or just a natural behaviour for humans when they're in a situation of managing a global megacorp. End result is the same, and these people will find loopholes around any laws you come up with or will just buy off your politicians (who, coincidentally, are also detached from caring about the voters they're supposed to represent) and change the laws in their favour.

    24. Re:You can't fix this. by west · · Score: 1

      The trouble is that for a sizable segment of society, their privacy+eyeballs is the only asset they have to sell.

      Making Microsoft, Google, et al start charging for everything (or raise their prices in order to make up for the loss of revenue) is going to flat out deny services to those who can't afford them (or are unbanked and have no access to credit cards).

      Sure, adding $100-$200 a month to my bills (in the form of micro-transactions, subscriptions, etc.) to protect my privacy (and only have anonymous ads shown) would easily be worthwhile trade for me and my ilk. Add in another $100-$200 a month to get rid of ads altogether.

      And in the end, I'd be a happier camper, down maybe $5K a year (at worst) to replace all the 'free' or discounted services I currently enjoy.

      But there are a hell of a lot of people for whom a $5K annual expense is not an option. Should they essentially be cut off from the Internet?

    25. Re:You can't fix this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stalking is actually a crime in my country and most likely yours as well. How bad does it get before it gets recognition of breaking stalker laws?

    26. Re:You can't fix this. by swb · · Score: 1

      Now you're getting to the heart of rational choice theory, that people are making a willing choice to sacrifice their privacy and attention for the services they get.

      I don't think that some kind of privacy legislation that sucked some of the profit out of computing services would price people out of the Internet. Before the era of "free" Internet services, people paid for operating systems that didn't have telemetry, got email accounts without content-scanning with their $35/month ISP account and got nearly the same social/information value from USENET, FAQs, and the more rudimentary services available then.

      I think in a lot of ways, people are paying far more for Internet access now than they did 20 years ago. Where before you shouldered the burden of a PC, you still largely do that now. The hardware is cheaper overall, but people have more devices and probably pay more for a laptop/desktop + broadband and smartphone + data service, not to mention tablets, streaming services, etc.

      Removing the "free" out of telemetry-laden products and services might make them more expensive, but it wouldn't cut anyone off. I think it would have the side benefit of the services needing to be responsive to users -- less perpetual beta and arbitrary end of life of services and the general manipulation of the service for the provider's benefit.

      The larger problem of rational choice theory is also that you start to ask why people can't make a lot of rational economic trade-offs. Why can't an 18 year old choose to sell themselves into indentured servitude for 5 years in exchange for college tuition? Why can't I buy my way out of the military draft if there's some guy willing to go fight in my place if I pay him? It excludes the notion that these choices may actually be economically coercive at some level and not free choices.

    27. Re:You can't fix this. by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      How many of these services do you really need ? Instead of want.

      Gmail has an uptime of nearly 99.99%. Storage in tens of GBs. It can sustain a bandwidth of 20 MB/s. Very few people need it. A 100 MB 98% uptime , 100 kbps email service would work for most of the people who cannot pay much for it, or cannot pay at all. Basic advertisements without any tracking would pay for it, like it did 20 years ago, with hardware and network prices much lower today.

      Remember 99.99% uptime is much more expensive to provide than 99.9% uptime.

      Also, for people with only privacy+eyeballs to sell, privacy+eyeballs has much less value to any advertiser. Most advertisers are hoping to get privacy+eyeballs of a rich guy, or at least a poor guy ready to borrow and spend.

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
  4. Let's ditch Windows, huh? by MindPrison · · Score: 1, Informative

    >I'm not saying ditch Windows. I'm saying let's fix this. If we can't fix it, then we ditch Windows.

    Well, maybe you can do what I do... ...I run Windows 10 on a separate SSD, and run Linux daily on my Main M2. NVMe.

    --
    What this world is coming to - is for you and me to decide.
    1. Re:Let's ditch Windows, huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      nah. just learn a thing or two.

    2. Re: Let's ditch Windows, huh? by thundercattt · · Score: 3, Informative

      Or keep Windows nicely tucked away in a VM.

    3. Re: Let's ditch Windows, huh? by thegarbz · · Score: 0

      And gimp its performance? If you are content with a VM then you probably don't have or need Windows 10 in it.

    4. Re: Let's ditch Windows, huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or keep Windows nicely tucked away in a VM.

      Not much of a solution. If that VM has network access, MS still knows everything you do in it.
      Sure, you can do your private stuff in the Linux host, but give it enough time an you will get lazy and use Windows for things you shouldn't...

    5. Re: Let's ditch Windows, huh? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      That works if you don't need Windows for pretty much the only thing that people need it anymore and can't replace it with Linux: Playing games.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    6. Re: Let's ditch Windows, huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Would be nice if someone would publish all of the MS end points that are used to receive this telemetry data and then we could host file this problem away.

    7. Re: Let's ditch Windows, huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      What the fuck are you talking about?

      I use Windows in VMs all the time and the performance is absolutely fine. I agree with the parent poster, the only safe place for Windows today is inside a VM, spun up from time to time when Windows applications are required. For everything else, depending on your workload, there is a very diverse pool of FOSS to draw from.

    8. Re: Let's ditch Windows, huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "get lazy and use Windows for things you shouldn't..."

      No I won't, because all my Windows VMs are cut off from network access, and the rare time I am developing Windows client applications that require network access, then said access is tightly restricted by the Linux host.

      I can't recommend it enough: a nice safe Linux host for all your personal files, email, and web browsing, and as much workload as you can manage with FOSS. Augmented by 1-5 VMs without network access spun up for Windows-specific applications, shuffling files through a dead-letter-drop folder on the host. I do find the file shuffling tedious from time to time, but that is a small price I am willing to pay for peace of mind, extra security, and the simple pleasure of regaining control over my computer.

    9. Re: Let's ditch Windows, huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You must be new. That is already done. But data is also simply sent by IP, so firewall blocking is also necessary.

      But there are always new ones. That brings things back to the issue in that there is simply no direct way to opt out.

      A better solution would be to generate massive amounts of fake data to make their collection more trouble than it is worth.

    10. Re: Let's ditch Windows, huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is not all of them...

      HOSTS
      https://pastebin.com/BGkwNJWU

      IP's to block
      https://pastebin.com/C6NZhnCA

      Best to make also registry and group policy edits to stop some data collection to begin with. As you can see, the problem is annoying because there is not simple way to fix.

    11. Re: Let's ditch Windows, huh? by caseih · · Score: 2

      Wrong. Windows 10 is quite usable in a VM for business and even programming tasks. Sure gaming probably isn't a go. But everything else works fine. I use Windows 10 in a virtual machine quite often, running Visual Studio.

    12. Re: Let's ditch Windows, huh? by thegarbz · · Score: 0

      Hmmm interesting. Someone has modpoints but no rebuttal.

    13. Re: Let's ditch Windows, huh? by caseih · · Score: 1

      You made a blanket statement about "gimping" Windows 10 performance in a VM. I simply said your blanket statement was wrong. Windows 10 runs just fine in a VM. Like I say I use Visual Studio in it frequently. For most common office tasks where MS software is required it will work fine for Linux users who need to run it in a VM.

      a) no idea what you're getting at here. I'm not a gamer; I wouldn't know
      b) I don't care about how DX12 runs in a VM and suspect most people who run Windows 10 in a VM don't care about that either
      c) I don't have Windows 7, and you can't buy it either. Shrug. No idea what you're talking about with cloud features confined to VM. I don't use any cloud features anyway but they'd be no different than they function on a dedicated PC.

    14. Re: Let's ditch Windows, huh? by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      You made a blanket statement about "gimping" Windows 10 performance in a VM.

      Yep it's a very thin blanket kind of like a veil. Veils have a limited purpose, as does running Windows 10 when you're a Linux user. 99% of that time the problem is gaming.

      After all Linux users love telling you how there's alternatives to everything other than gaming available on that platform, and gaming is also the only reason why someone who heaps endless shit on Windows talking about the better experience of Linux would even consider Windows 10.

      It's a horrible idea to VM an OS that uses so much space for the purpose of running an app or two.

  5. spybot anti-beacon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    spybot anti-beacon is a good start. also wireshark your way into happiness with windows. learn about policies. learn about how the management tools work. I bothered to learn Windows inside out and you can too.

    1. Re:spybot anti-beacon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure - If you can get a hand on the "Enterprise" edition.
      For Home or Professional? Just forget it....

      What hurts most is that Professional is not Professional anymore, but only Home with a bit of bling-bling to fool you around about having control.

    2. Re: spybot anti-beacon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You must not know it as well as you think. Spybot Antibeacon does not block it all and is rarely updated. It's like using scotch tape to seal a stab wound.

    3. Re:Spybot anti-beacon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thankyou - I didn't know that existed until I saw that link (should have really, given I've used spybot s&d before)

    4. Re:Spybot anti-beacon by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can kill cortana - you just change som registry settings to do a regular text search instead. Of course, that only fixes your PC. You still have problems with smartphones. Even taxi drivers are now getting voice recognition software to help with GPS, entertainment systems and environment controls.

  6. one file disable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    c:\windows\system32\drivers\etc\hosts

    you can find the list to null route on github, etc

    1. Re: one file disable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Unfortunately it is well documented that Windows 10 ignores the hosts file for "telemetry"

    2. Re: one file disable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unfortunately it is well documented that Windows 10 ignores the hosts file for "telemetry"

      So a game of whack-a-mole of MS IP-addresses to block then...

    3. Re: one file disable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Unfortunately it is well documented that Windows 10 ignores the hosts file for "telemetry"

      Source?

      It is well documented that Windows 10 ignores the host file for a list of "vital" MS services like Update. I have been unable to find any evidence the the telemetry urls get ignored too.

      In fact they seem to be perfectly blockable by the hosts file.

    4. Re: one file disable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Too late, my comment was modded +5 on the basis of no evidence whatsoever.

      Meanwhile your far more accurate comment has been ignored.

      Welcome to Slashdot!

      List of hosts ignored in the hosts file:

      www.msdn.com
      msdn.com
      www.msn.com
      msn.com
      go.microsoft.com
      msdn.microsoft.com
      office.microsoft.com
      microsoftupdate.microsoft.com
      wustats.microsoft.com
      support.microsoft.com
      www.microsoft.com
      microsoft.com
      update.microsoft.com
      download.microsoft.com
      microsoftupdate.com
      windowsupdate.com
      windowsupdate.microsoft.com

      Some applications, like Edge, will completely ignore the hosts file.

      Basically you have to trust that Microsoft won't alter your existing settings (they already do on update, so you can't trust them there), won't change which hosts entries are hardcoded, and won't change the behaviour or already have tracking code that ignores the hosts file entirely.

    5. Re: one file disable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's pretty good reasons for this - specifically no-one can change your hosts file and use that to send telemetry to them. It's the same with anti-virus updates - if the hosts file can be used to re-direct to a "bad guy" server they can upload wahtever they want.

    6. Re: one file disable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      However, if you have a configurable router running linux, you can use that hosts file to block the dns when Windows looks to it for an address. Or better yet, use those addresses in a script to block them in iptables.

    7. Re: one file disable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is a useless list and terrible advice. You didn't even include known ms telemetry servers, just update servers!

      Don't open your mouth if you don't have anything useful to say.

    8. Re: one file disable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are the worst cat, not even any fur.

    9. Re: one file disable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It takes more than that. MS Firewall doesn't permit blocking of MS IP addresses. You can get various applications like Wireshark, CPorts to see where the open ports are and how much data is being sent to goodness knows where. Then it is a case of killing off those processes and deleting the relevant software modules. The Windows Firewall combines ports, address ranges with policy groups, administrator groups, a vague "level of security".

      Unfortunately, Windows 10 is "self-healing", so just because you delete a directory doesn't mean it won't come back. You also have to disable Windows Update. But Windows Update can be restored to auto mode the next time you do a manual update. So you have to move the directory you want to disable to a new name, zip it up, delete it and create a text file with the name of the directory you want to block.

      You also have to dig into the registry and set various flags manually since Windows menu options don't provide direct mode selection.
      Other critical applications like display drivers also seem to create Windows telemetry, so they have to be removed after the driver is installed. You have to dig into the system services menu to disable all those things like Samba, Avahi, LLDP, LLSP,

      Windows 10 will also seem to "trickle-download" applications in the background. There is a directory called WindowsApps which many users have discovered to contain up to 2.5 Gigabytes of applications they never used, and even worse was auto-connecting to the internet (eg. WindowsPhotos.exe) The directory itself is owned by the WindowsInstaller user, then application directories, shortcuts and data files are owned by different accounts such as Administrator and System. Deleting this directory required recursively changing ownership and permissions until each and every directory was deleted (This may have been due to latency in the journaling file system).

      This is what I know this week. It's an ongoing battle. BTW, I do have a dual-boot system with Linux.

    10. Re: one file disable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I tried to block the Microsoft IP address for Ireland/Dublin (52.169.64.244). Despite this number being in the hosts directory, data still gets sent to it.

    11. Re: one file disable by Kernel+Kurtz · · Score: 1

      This should not be a problem for large enterprises. You don't need to mess with hosts files when you control the DNS and the perimeter firewalls. Also if you have a WSUS server you should have better control over what updates are applied.

      Not saying enterprises should have to do this - they should not have to, but they can.

    12. Re: one file disable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Question is not so much the hosts file, but the firewall. How many Windows services in W10, "vital" or otherwise, bypass the firewall? Previous spelunking by various people suggests that the number is non-zero, and potentially fairly large.

    13. Re: one file disable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just setup a dummy office win10 vm. Let it sit idle on the network. Any traffic it generates gets logged and backlisted by the firewall, for all other clients.

      Manual and static lists are for suckers.

  7. Optimal Experience by Darinbob · · Score: 4, Informative

    The problem with optimal experience is that Microsoft means their own experience not that of the users. Optimal for them means that the customers are eyeballs for advertisers and with easy to access to data for analytics. Optimal experience for the actual users means that they can turn off Microsoft's control, nothing ever defaults to opt-in, and they don't get tracked or advertised to.

    1. Re:Optimal Experience by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I liked it better when computers empowered us. Gates (1995): "Where do YOU want to go today?"

      The reason for Windows now seems to be: "Show US where you've been today."

    2. Re:Optimal Experience by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Optimal experience my ass! Optimal for tracking!

    3. Re:Optimal Experience by Z00L00K · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately one side-effect is also that if they don't get the data from all users then their experience data is getting skewed. So this means effectively that if only morons don't disable the telemetry and everyone else do, then they base their decisions on the user experience morons has and make an operating system suitable for morons based on that.

      But we do need to tell them that we don't like being tracked all the time. There are limits to how far a government may go in many modern countries, but rarely how far a company may go. Like "freedom of speech", that's only limiting the government officials, never companies like Google, Microsoft or Facebook. But it should include them as well since the large companies are essentially virtual governments now.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    4. Re: Optimal Experience by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Isn't that pretty much what Windows has always been, though? An OS even a moron can use and thus only a moron would ever want to use? All they're doing is perfecting that design. I mean, they even literally put huge Fischer Price style baby buttons on it at one point, what more evidence do you need?

  8. Better Solutioin by Murdoch5 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's call Linux and it's vastly superior in almost every way to Windows. Don't worry about Windows 10, just switch to the worlds best Desktop Operating system.

    1. Re: Better Solutioin by thundercattt · · Score: 4, Informative

      Been a Linux user since XP, never looked back.

    2. Re: Better Solutioin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Linux Mint, really slick

    3. Re:Better Solutioin by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      I want to. Really, I do. For about half the tools I use there's replacements in Linux. Nearly everything else works great in a locked away Windows VM.

      And now please solve the last bastion that Windows has: Games.

      Games are, odd as it may sound, tricky. Hard, if possible at all, to run in a VM, many don't work well in Wine and very few (at least outside the Indie circuit) run natively on Linux.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    4. Re:Better Solutioin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about a console or dedicated game machine? It could be offline. Or if it has to be online, do you really care if your gaming OS tracks your gaming activities? Do everything important on your main/work computer running Linux.

    5. Re: Better Solutioin by thundercattt · · Score: 1

      Majority of newer games do get supported under Wine. Unless you're playing the Original Diablo or something, you're good to go.

    6. Re: Better Solutioin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then stop playing such crap games. :)
      Buy Kerbal Space Program or Civ 6. They are supported without needing Wine.

    7. Re:Better Solutioin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      don't support game companies who doesn't have *at least* mac client (preferably linux client). AAA gaming is lacking, true. Tomb raider has linux client (adventure game), Mad max has linux client (GTA5 sub), Warhammer games have linux clients (RTS, MOBAs). Civ, X-com have linux cients. Borderlands, Bioshock have linux clients. Indie games almost always have linux clients.
      Support these companies.

    8. Re:Better Solutioin by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Same here. I think when Win7 goes out of support, I will just go dual-system with a KVM switch, and the only thing on the Windows machine being games. For Office (which I occasionally need), I will just go for an non-networked VM on Linux. It is truly sad that the mainstream-OS has now to be treated basically as malware.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    9. Re:Better Solutioin by DogDude · · Score: 1

      That's cute.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    10. Re:Better Solutioin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You could just grow the fuck up, get a job and stop playing childish computer games.

    11. Re:Better Solutioin by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Ahhh, thank you, i've been waiting for you. Thanks for not disappointing.

      Allow me to put it in words you might understand: It's none of your fucking business how I spend my rare spare time, so fuck off.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    12. Re:Better Solutioin by 0123456 · · Score: 1

      That's what I do already. I have a cheap AMD box for Linux, an expensive gaming machine running Windows, and a KVM to switch between them.

      When I eventually have to 'upgrade' to Windows 10 for DX12, it will basically be a $2000 game console.

    13. Re: Better Solutioin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      never looked back.

      Sore neck?

    14. Re:Better Solutioin by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      Then you don't want hard enough to switch to Linux. Enjoy the pervert OS for its toys. Like the somewhat paradoxical and dishonest "I'd really want to go out with you but I need to watch paint dry", you don't really want to switch to Linux but you are just pretending.

      Moms should tell kids to not follow perverts for toys. Sometimes kids don't listen anyway.

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
    15. Re:Better Solutioin by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      The question is what you want out of a tool. One of the things that I want out of my OS is the ability to run the games I want to play. If it doesn't fulfill that role, it is unfit for my purpose.

      So yes, maybe I don't want to switch "hard enough". Probably because I don't make it a religious issue but one of practicality. I do business on Linux and I (still) play on Windows. And it seems to stay that way for the foreseeable future.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    16. Re:Better Solutioin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I just dual boot and treat my Windows installation as a glorified XBOX. Nothing gets installed or used on it except Steam (okay... and GoG, Origin). I get the best of both worlds, huge compatible game library and no spying on my online/desktop usage.

  9. Stockholm syndrome by whoever57 · · Score: 2

    I'm not saying ditch Windows. I'm saying let's fix this. If we can't fix it, then we ditch Windows.

    We already know it's unfixable. What's the delay in ditching Windows?

    I think that, for many people, if running Windows required the user to endure an electric shock, they would still not ditch it. They have such little imagination that an alternative is possible.

    --
    The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
  10. We? by PinkyGigglebrain · · Score: 4, Insightful

    " If we can't fix it, then we ditch Windows."

    "We" can't fix MS Windows, only Microsoft can.

    Any one think they will?

    1. Re:We? by Bite+The+Pillow · · Score: 1

      Start with the restricted baseline, and remove the stuff meant to prevent this from being useless, like the CRL checks. That's how we fix it. Oh, and document minor deviations that people may want like Defender av updates.

      When that fails, patched binaries, signed if needed via Let's Encrypt.

      And then we fix by ditching it. Wine or ReactOS or dump it completely.

    2. Re:We? by gweihir · · Score: 1

      I think they may not be able to either.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  11. I'm not your home IT staff... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

    Home and Professional users are much worse off due to limitations of some settings and lack of an IT staff...

    I haven't fixed anyone's computers in years since I started charging $300 per hour.

    1. Re: I'm not your home IT staff... by thundercattt · · Score: 1

      Hahaha I had to do the same thing.

    2. Re:I'm not your home IT staff... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Home and Professional users are much worse off due to limitations of some settings and lack of an IT staff...

      I haven't fixed anyone's computers in years since I started charging $300 per hour.

      He lives and works in Silicon Valley, consoling hurt computers and fixing broken users.

    3. Re:I'm not your home IT staff... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 1

      He lives and works in Silicon Valley, consoling hurt computers and fixing broken users.

      These days I console hurt workstations and create tickets for the local techs to fix broken users.

    4. Re: I'm not your home IT staff... by __aaclcg7560 · · Score: 2

      Hahaha I had to do the same thing.

      A coworker went a step further by requiring his customers to order and pay for their replacement parts through Best Buy so he can pick them up. No money comes out of his pocket for the replacement parts and he doesn't get stuck with a $300 video card because someone cancelled the job.

    5. Re:I'm not your home IT staff... by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 1

      These days I console hurt workstations and create tickets for the local techs to fix broken users

      "User error. Please replace user and try again."

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    6. Re:I'm not your home IT staff... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funny how that works, eh?

    7. Re: I'm not your home IT staff... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like he only did residential?. When I used to do PC hardware crap I would have about $10k in just various PC parts in the trunk of my work car. Having stock easily made me an extra 5 times that in the work I picked up for just having the part on hand. 90% of clients were commercial. They were used to waiting days to get shit running again. I picked up so many service contracts by just building a rep of being able to get things done immediately.

    8. Re:I'm not your home IT staff... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good god, I thought techs like you guys were extinct. You sure you three aren't really just IT Crowd extras stuck in character?

  12. Re:Will you finally get to work already? by DiSKiLLeR · · Score: 0

    WTF are you talking about? Linux works perfectly fine. Seriously. It really does.

    --
    You can tell how powerful someone is by the magnitude of the crime they can commit and be able to get away with.
  13. Sad by execthis · · Score: 1

    Sad to read another article about painful writhing over using Windows.

    Ditch Windows.

    1. Re:Sad by MrL0G1C · · Score: 1

      10x more games for windows, for the meantime I can stick with 7, I'm still waiting for 3rd parties to fix the giant feces known as windows telemetry in win10.

      'Basic level' - they collect so much they say it'd take 149 min's just to read what type of info it collects:
      https://docs.microsoft.com/en-...

      --
      Waterfox - a Firefox fork with legacy extension support, security updates and better privacy by default.
    2. Re: Sad by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But she has such nice tits! Maybe if I just sit down and talk to her again she'll stop showing them to everybody...

  14. Re: Will you finally get to work already? by thundercattt · · Score: 1

    Ok Anonymous Windows PR rep. I can do anything on Linux someone can on Windoze and without the anal probe

  15. Re: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Failing to fix their ancient security problems just because there is no real legal liability, and suddenly you care about their newest disaster? The only reason to waste your time is if you are paid to. Hopefully fake news like this might go unnoticed in the future.

  16. Re: Will you finally get to work already? by DavidPetersonHarvey · · Score: 4, Interesting

    My business runs entirely on Linux. So does NASA. Those cute little Rovers that we have on Mars right now, Linux. Oil companies use special security Hardened versions of Linux to run the oil wells. If all these organizations are running Lenox just fine, the problem must be with you. :-)

  17. Re:Will you finally get to work already? by David_Hart · · Score: 2, Informative

    WTF are you talking about? Linux works perfectly fine. Seriously. It really does.

    The problem with Linux isn't that it doesn't work, it does, and usually quite reliably. The problem is, and I think that this is what the OP meant, that it just isn't user friendly.

    Installing drivers are not automatic, like the are for most devices under Windows today. Finding applications to take place of existing Windows applications, including financial apps, are much more difficult. Granted, as more companies provide web based apps this becomes less of a concern. Finally, Linux still doesn't have major gaming support. If you want to play the latest high end games then you need a PC running Windows (Yes you can buy console systems, that's a different discussion).

  18. PlayOnLinux is the killer app by xeno · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Yep, linux linux linux... all us geeks can rant about the virtues and advantages, but at the end of the day, the rank and file want to run office and a web browser. MS Office is the lock-in that sells Windows... and while Wine promised to solve that it's way too complex for most people. Enter PlayOnLinux, which makes common Windows software installation just as simple as on Windows. Point, click, install. Holy $#%@ it just works, and ALL that Windows telemetry is gone, because Windows is gone. And I don't miss it.

    To keep it short: I set up Linux Mint and ran updates (about 10 min total install time, from bare metal), installed PlayOnLinux (about three clicks into the Software Manager app), then used that to install MS Office (including Visio), registered and all. The Cisco VPN works (of course), the browsers are faster (of course) and work well with corp apps, and MS Office just works. Tons of other stuff Just Works(tm). Corp IT never hears from me, all the tools just work, everything's much faster, and I didn't have to do ANYTHING at the CLI -- in fact, it was easier and much faster than typical interminable Windows setup processes. It's beyond me why people still put up with the stress of Windows, or insist that it's easier (it's not) or more secure (*snort*).

    --
    I think not...(*poof*)
    1. Re:PlayOnLinux is the killer app by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lack of Rift/Vive support is keeping me tied to windows >
      I've used Linux off and on since 1996.

    2. Re:PlayOnLinux is the killer app by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      and while Wine promised to solve that it's way too complex for most people. Enter PlayOnLinux, which makes common Windows software installation just as simple as on Windows

      You know that PlayOnLinux is a layer on top of Wine, right? You are using Wine.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    3. Re:PlayOnLinux is the killer app by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    4. Re:PlayOnLinux is the killer app by ByteSlicer · · Score: 1

      and ALL that Windows telemetry is gone, because Windows is gone.

      That's a dangerous assumption to make. MS Office could include its own telemetry.
      Since you told us you did the registration, it connected to MS servers at least once already.
      Did you take steps to isolate it from the internet afterwards?
      If not, how can you be sure it doesn't spy on you?

    5. Re:PlayOnLinux is the killer app by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Cisco VPN works (of course)

      no need for PlayOnLinux for that, use a native (non-Cisco-supplied) client ;-)

    6. Re:PlayOnLinux is the killer app by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      So? What matters is that it makes using Wine much easier and user friendly.

      This is exactly the only problem Linux still has that keeps it from breaking out into the world: You still need to know a thing or two about the machine you're using. Yes, that should be a good thing. Actually, it should be a requirement. Sadly, most people neither do know a thing or two about the machines they're using, they also do not want to learn. And there is unfortunately an OS that supports their laziness.

      And just as people choose dancing pigs over security, they also choose laziness over privacy.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    7. Re:PlayOnLinux is the killer app by StormReaver · · Score: 1

      ...Wine promised to solve that it's way too complex for most people. Enter PlayOnLinux....

      PlayOnLinux is just a front-end to WINE. While is may increase your success a bit, it's still limited by WINE's abilities.

    8. Re: PlayOnLinux is the killer app by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're obviously not in sales.

      Ever had a projector not work at a client ?

      With Linux : oh that stupid OS -must be your problem, get out of here and fix your shit.

      With windows : hah! Windows! It's either windows having a bad day or the projector. Either way we're not blaming you !

      Just woke up - could've written this better. Point still stands.

    9. Re:PlayOnLinux is the killer app by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      Hold on - am I getting this right? Using Wine to Run Microsoft Office? Too bad there isn't a Linux solution.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    10. Re:PlayOnLinux is the killer app by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anti-virus is another killer app for Windows ;). Say the office is required to use one in a set of approved anti-virus "solutions." How many of those also support Linux or xBSD? There is no marketing, no clarity for alternative products. This prevents some offices even from considering breaking free from the iron grip of Windows ecosystem.

    11. Re:PlayOnLinux is the killer app by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and ALL that Windows telemetry is gone, because Windows is gone.

      That's a dangerous assumption to make. MS Office could include its own telemetry.
      Since you told us you did the registration, it connected to MS servers at least once already.
      Did you take steps to isolate it from the internet afterwards?
      If not, how can you be sure it doesn't spy on you?

      Personally I run Windows applications (via Wine) as a separate user. This user doesn't do anything else, it is only for Wine. Then I add this to my firewall:

      iptables -A OUTPUT --match owner --uid-owner -j REJECT

      That means, anytime that user tries (via Wine or anything else) to make a connection, the connection attempt fails and gets blocked. It's similar to what would happen if you just disconnected your Ethernet cable or disabled Wifi, but it applies only to that one user.

      Every Windows application correctly recognizes that it has no network access. You could also use DROP instead of REJECT. The reason I use REJECT is that it immediately gives the application an ICMP error message that it can recognize and handle. If you use DROP, applications trying to make connections will hang (sometimes for a long time) waiting for a connection that'll never happen. Except for that, they both work. By default, most distros will save your firewall configuration when you shut down and restore it when you boot up - if not, this can easily be arranged.

    12. Re:PlayOnLinux is the killer app by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Err I forgot to escape my greater-than and less-than symbols so Slashdot ate them. The correct command looks like this:

      iptables -A OUTPUT --match owner --uid-owner <USERNAME> -j REJECT

      Of course, "USERNAME" should be substituted with whatever user will be running Wine applications. Depending on your distro, you may also need to take one extra step so that USER2 can open graphical windows on an Xorg session owned by USER1. This can vary slightly among distros, but generally you will have a file /etc/pam.d/su that's part of your PAM configuration. Add the following line to it:

      session optional pam_xauth.so

      Now when you switch users, the user you switch to will also be allowed to interface with Xorg. This prevents any errors about not connecting to a valid DISPLAY. Some distros may do this by default, but mine doesn't. It's a one-time change.

    13. Re:PlayOnLinux is the killer app by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      ...Wine promised to solve that it's way too complex for most people. Enter PlayOnLinux....

      PlayOnLinux is just a front-end to WINE. While is may increase your success a bit, it's still limited by WINE's abilities.

      I don't think you appreciate what PlayOnLinux actually does. Many Windows programs run poorly in Wine (or not at all) unless you obtain and install various Windows components, like DirectX or corefonts or other DLLs. It's not straightforward to figure out what a given program needs, and in what combination. For applications supported by PlayOnLinux, someone has already worked this out for you and it's done automatically with no user intervention.

      I don't personally use PlayOnLinux because I've used Wine for about a decade (it's been around a long time) and I'm well familiar with it. I also have my own way that I like to organize things. Just because it's not for me, doesn't mean I can't understand its value (that would be a sign of douchebaggery). Make no mistake, it makes things so very much simpler for most users. It can make or break their entire Wine experience.

    14. Re:PlayOnLinux is the killer app by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I get paid in my line of work because people don't know what they are doing 99.99% of the time.
      However, I would still love for linux to be more home user friendly as well as enterprise ready for a number of reasons.
      Support will still exist either way so I am good.

  19. The problem is the complete lack of alternatives by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    - MacOS is garbage
    - Linux is a piece of shit

    Did I miss any?

  20. All in the name... by duke_cheetah2003 · · Score: 1

    Sadly, Windows is a brand, a familiar name to pretty much everyone. Linux is getting there too, but the unfortunate part is Linux has a reputation of being 'geeky, technical, difficult to use, not for end-users.' Which is really sad and completely wrong, the Linux Mint team have put together one of the easiest to use systems I've seen. It's not perfect, but it's definitely easy to use.

    Linux needs to work on it's reputation with the general public. I'm not sure how we go about doing that other than educating everyone we as IT goons come into contact with. I've personally 'converted' a handful of people from Windows to Linux Mint, it's pretty amazing when people realize, 'wow, this is actually just as easy as windows. i never knew.'

    Mint has a long way to go, however. Out of the box it's fantastic, but installing anything becomes quickly overwhelming for end users. I suppose if you're on the side of the fence that says 'Windows must die!' the best thing you could do is contribute to Mint's development. And show it to everyone you meet.

    Microsoft might self-destruct if they push Windows S too hard, that is just a nightmare. That'll drive everyone toward Linux in a hurry. Please do it, Microsoft. Push Windows S harder.

    1. Re:All in the name... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Linux has a reputation of being 'geeky, technical, difficult to use, not for end-users.'

      That might be a feature.

    2. Re:All in the name... by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      It's changing. Windows is a household name, yes, but it becomes more and more something that people despise for two reasons. First, for a real one, because they get to hear time and again "bad news" about it. Privacy? Shady business tactics? Nah. Malware. Crypto trojans. And it does only happen to Windows users. No Linux user reports any problems, no MacOS has ever been affected. Yes, technically they could if those OSs had any market share interesting to the crypters, but ... folks, why shouldn't we use their ignorance for good for a change?

      And second also a less real one, because they get to see that everyone who knows a thing or two about computers considers it bad. And whether they want to admit it or not, people do give something about the opinion of "experts". They don't like to be seen as suckers who use something that people who know a thing about the matter dump.

      Most of them move towards MacOS. But there are also people who are starting to take a look at Linux. And that's where we are called to act. If one of your friends starts to express an interest in Linux, show them. Make sure you have a Window manager installed that resembles Windows. Show them a browser, mail, office, i.e. all the things that are simply identical to what they are used to. Make sure to stress that it's free, and legally so.

      And be prepared to hold their hands for the next couple of weeks.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:All in the name... by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 1

      S

      Mint has a long way to go, however. Out of the box it's fantastic, but installing anything becomes quickly overwhelming for end users.

      I hear ya Bro! I damn near died when I opened Synaptics and then I'm telling you the facking program made me enter my password - again, fer crissakes! Then I had to search through all of these gaddamned programs and get this - click on the one I wanted. Then it was scary, when a new screen popped up and told me it had to install some other programs - wut dafuk? Sounds like a virus or sumpin from the roooshians!

      Finally I just gave up, asked for prayers from me friends on facebook and cried myself to sleep.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    4. Re:All in the name... by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Microsoft might self-destruct if they push Windows S too hard, that is just a nightmare. That'll drive everyone toward Linux in a hurry. Please do it, Microsoft. Push Windows S harder.

      I do hope so. The Windows "Shit" edition should make it clear even to the dumbest user.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    5. Re:All in the name... by Cro+Magnon · · Score: 1

      It's changing. Windows is a household name, yes, but it becomes more and more something that people despise for two reasons. First, for a real one, because they get to hear time and again "bad news" about it. Privacy? Shady business tactics? Nah. Malware. Crypto trojans. And it does only happen to Windows users.

      Heh! My mom knows squat about computers and doesn't even have one. But she heard, on TV & the radio, about this "crying" virus on Microsoft (she didn't remember "Windows", but she remembered the company).

      --
      Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
  21. Ditch proprietary software. Not just Windows. by jbn-o · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm not saying ditch Windows. I'm saying let's fix this. If we can't fix it, then we ditch Windows.

    You should be saying ditch proprietary software precisely because nobody but the proprietor (the very party you can't trust) is legally allowed to fix this (where the word "fix" is a fix from the user's perspective, of course, since the software already works as the proprietor has programmed it to work). That's what proprietary software means and that power over the user is why proprietors distribute their software without respecting a user's freedoms to run, share, and modify the software at any time for any reason. The system's behavior can change at any time, so even if someone monitors what a particular variant of a non-free, user-subjugating OS does now that can change later. Perhaps the software only does something bad under conditions one doesn't typically reach, or maybe an update changes how the software behaves. Furthermore, said software updates don't have to come through an updating program which seeks a user's approval before installation (such as Windows Updates).

    The GNU Project has no shortage of proprietary Microsoft malware and that includes universal backdoors, snooping on user's activities, ignoring user's settings on so-called 'privacy' settings, and sending identifiable data to Microsoft and third parties ("even if a user turns off its Bing search and Cortana features, and activates the privacy-protection settings").

  22. Re:The problem is the complete lack of alternative by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sure did, let's see...

    NetBSD
    OS2
    FreeDOS
    Amiga Workbench
    Haiku
    Plan9
    Cray Operating System (someone did run this on a FPGA)
    Z/OS
    OpenVMS

  23. Re:BS by davester666 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    While the guy might not be a world-class IT specialist, he does report the truth. Window 10 does track too much, and you can't even opt out of it.

    Unfortunately, the last sentence of the summary is delusional. There is only one company that can "fix" it, and they refuse to.

    --
    Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
  24. Re: Will you finally get to work already? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I've found the opposite to be true. Linux ships with 99% of the drivers you'll ever need, on Windows part of the install is traditionally using another machine to search vendor sites for drivers. Also many things that are trivially simple on Linux, like channel bonding, are hard or impossible on Windows depending on vendor and hardware support.

  25. If you need a real OS, find one by AHuxley · · Score: 1

    Just enjoy Microsoft for games.
    Let Microsoft track all the hours spent playing games.
    Anything of value use a real OS.
    Why risk all the malware, CIA, NSA code and other security services?

    --
    Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    1. Re:If you need a real OS, find one by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Indeed. As soon as Win7 goes out of security-support I am doing that. Not quite sure how yet, but possibly just by using two machines and a KVM switch. Alternatively, if Graphics passthrough works well by then, I might jail Win10 in a VM.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  26. So What's the Right Way to do Telemetry? by rsmith-mac · · Score: 1

    I want to zig-zag here a bit. We all agree that MS is doing it wrong with telemetry on Windows 10. So then, fellow Slashdotters, what is the right (or at least, righter) way to do it?

    • Do we make it opt out or opt in? If it's opt out then most people unknowingly participate, which increases the chance of telemetry seeing something it shouldn't. If it's opt in then most people unknowingly don't participate, and the pool of telemetry-enabled systems will be very small and biased towards power users.
    • What's okay to collect? What should be forbidden? Very roughly speaking, the more you understand how your users use your software, the better you can optimize it for their needs. But the opposite side of that is again privacy issues. So where's the line?
    • How do you communicate with users what you're doing with the data? No one seems like MS's built-in descriptors or the website. People want details, but then many more of them will gloss over anything that's more than a paragraph long...

    I don't see telemetry ever going away entirely, and I'm not sure that would be a good thing even if it could. If there's one lesson to take from the first couple of decades of computing, it's that the general public and their computers-as-appliances attitude have no idea what they want, and even when they do, they can't explain it very well. Whereas telemetry, for better or worse, tells you precisely what the user is actually doing.

    1. Re:So What's the Right Way to do Telemetry? by Some+nick+or+other · · Score: 1

      How about you let the users opt in, and if you need a more representative sample, you actively get a focus group. It costs more, but it's not like MS is broke or anything.

    2. Re:So What's the Right Way to do Telemetry? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      here is a start: It should be a clear text XML format, encrypted with keys profided by the user (or comany) owning the hardware. There should be documented solutions for how to do deep packet inspection of this data to filter or block it at the firewall. The software should be unafected if the the telemetry is altered or blocked by the firewall. Sending bogus statistical data (even without using the involved software) is allouwed and a may limit the usefullness of some statistical uses by the recipiant.

    3. Re:So What's the Right Way to do Telemetry? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Telemetry should be a separate add-on, that you download through the Store. NOT PRESENT IN THE DEFAULT INSTALL. Perhaps they could give lower prices in the Store to those who chose to have it installed? Or 10% off next win version or some bullshit like that.

    4. Re:So What's the Right Way to do Telemetry? by Megane · · Score: 1

      Do we make it opt out or opt in?

      The problem right now is that it is neither. Opt-out would be an improvement.

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    5. Re:So What's the Right Way to do Telemetry? by swb · · Score: 1

      A big problem with telemetry in my opinion is that it's being used as a form of retroactive quality control, encouraging rapid version cycling and the release of immature code.

      I don't think they're using telemetry to identify edge cases that reasonable testing wouldn't catch, they're using it to find common problems that thorough testing would identify. I have a hard time believing that edge cases can even be found in the fire hose of data presented by mass telemetry. I'd wager it takes pretty serious analytics to even find common problems in the large and messy data set presented by mass telemetry, and that for the most part on the common problems, widely experienced would register.

      Telemetry is beta testing brought to production.

    6. Re:So What's the Right Way to do Telemetry? by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Sounds plausible.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    7. Re:So What's the Right Way to do Telemetry? by Kernel+Kurtz · · Score: 1

      Very roughly speaking, the more you understand how your users use your software, the better you can optimize it for their needs.

      You don't actually think that is why they are doing it, do you?

    8. Re:So What's the Right Way to do Telemetry? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds plausible.

      Me too!

  27. Fuck Microsoft by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's getting easier to ditch Windows but they are still an effective monopoly on the desktop. Congress should step in and break up Microsoft but while once Congress broke up monopolies now they schmooze up to them. What can you do but blame the moron voters who keep electing them? Not a chance in hell. Sad indeed.

    Play your part. If you're developing applications, do them entirely on the web. Linux on the server and so it doesn't matter what client you're running. Make Microsoft irrelevant.

  28. No kidding by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    See, this is why I stuck with Windows 7.

    And when Microsoft stops supporting it... well... then I guess I would have to ask a few friends to make sure I can keep Windows 7 by any means necessary.

  29. Enterprise solution: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Enterprise solution: Run Windows (can be Home if file servers, etc. run Linux and you don't have any Windows servers), Block all internet to/from windows workstations in (an external) firewall. Run browsers, email software, etc. in a virtual machine in a server, and use some type of remote desktop software to connect to that machine.
    It's also a nice migration parth: the virtual machines can run Windows, Linux, Mac, Android, etc. whatever best suits each piece of software.
    This not only solves Windows phoning home, it also solves many virus problems becouse the virtual machines can run Linux, and can be re-set to a clean VM every time the application starts. All without relaying in virus scanners that may take months to actually detetect new threads.

    1. Re: Enterprise solution: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, that will work for a little while, then your Windows VMs will stop working due to licensing as Windows periodically phones home to validate licensing.

  30. Linux you say? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When people claim that Linux is a good alternative to Windows, I simply start laughing.

    Nope, in 2017 Linux sucks balls for most desktop uses and there's no end in sight. It might work for you if you disregard tons of problems, shortcomings, greatly increased power usage, very unstable nature even for LTS distros (read Ubuntu security mailing list - at least 20% of updates lead to major regressions) and give up on thousands of applications.

    // Artem S. Tashkinov

    1. Re:Linux you say? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ah, so insanity laughter is your response to reality. Got it.

      Nope, in 2017, windows sucks heavy sweaty chocolate balls for most desktop uses, while Linux merely got better and better, having surpassed Windows soon after XP.

      And who is ignoring what problems exist in Linux (most of which because ACPI is written to the broken Windows implementation of how it's supposed to report things and not the actual standard)? It's ignored no more than, for example, and being topical, the telemetry spying being done by windows. YOU haven't mentioned it in your post, for example. Therefore you're ignoring it.

      "Oh, but I don't have to because it's assumed in context of this thread!" is merely a reason why you're ignoring it. The problem is that you're ignoring by not even asking or contemplating why what you claim is being ignored is being done so for similar reasons and not, in actual fact, ignored, merely not mentioned.

    2. Re:Linux you say? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Critical Linux bugs are found and patches in days(hours for Debian/Ubuntu). It takes Microshit months to do the same. Have fun with that. Azure is also running Linux's network stack...I wonder why.

    3. Re:Linux you say? by gweihir · · Score: 1

      You should cut back on the drugs. They are not good for you.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    4. Re:Linux you say? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the Linux world it's always someone else to blame rather than point a finger at yourself. The fact that there are hundreds of incompatible distors, and even different versions of the same distro are incompatible with one another is also someone else's fault. Yeah, right.

      The ./ crowd is either stoned or seriously high to think that Linux is a serious OS.

    5. Re:Linux you say? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've LOLed.

      Just of today ./ front page has a story on Samba which has had a remote root vulnerability since 2009 or so. Such bugs get discovered all the time and I'm sure as hell NSA knows a lot more than that.

      Bugs gets solved fast in the Linux world, my ass. Yeah, really.

  31. Direct edit by sir-gold · · Score: 1

    The author puts the difficulty of opting-out in term of numerous, confusing, and hard-to-find settings that need to be changed.

    All of these settings must be stored in a database somewhere on the HD, why not create something that directly edits the values and automates the process?

    1. Re:Direct edit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ayup - it can be done with - wait for it - drum roll - regedit.

      However, it is nicer to complain about it than make a regedit command file.

  32. Re:The problem is the complete lack of alternative by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes, you missed out that Windows is worse than either of them, AND spies on you more.

  33. Re: Will you finally get to work already? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The (soon manned!) SpaceX Falcon9 rocket runs on linux, including control of each of the 9 engines and in-flight updating of orbital parameters in case of an engine problem. The Windows license specifically forbits using Windows for anything more serious than a coffee machine.

  34. Re:Will you finally get to work already? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    >Installing drivers are not automatic, like the are for most devices under Windows today.

    What is this "installing drivers" you speak about? I just boot the Linux kernel and it already has drivers for everything. I wouldn't even know how to "install drivers" and I'm using it for decades.

    >Finally, Linux still doesn't have major gaming support. If you want to play the latest high end games then you need a PC running Windows (Yes you can buy console systems, that's a different discussion).

    Steam is pretty good.

  35. No, that's the free market. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

    It's 100% absolutely accurate logic.

    "There will be improved old and new technology"

    Doesn't change a thing I said and doesn't support your claim it's illogical.

    "people's wants will change"

    And therefore someone will see a place to make money. Profit is what's left after your expenses, which includes your pay. Enter the market and get paid or don't enter the market and don't get paid, which means you starve on the streets.

    "and differences in geography count as well"

    Which is meaningless. Differences in daylight exist. Differences in accents. But they don't count. How do differences in geography count????

    "The problem is we don't live in a free market. "

    That is why there's profit. If we lived in a free market,there would be no profit, since profit is what's left after the marginal cost, and a free market means products reach the marginal cost, meaning no profit.

    And what "problem" are you talking about? So you're anti profit as well as anti-free market????

  36. Re: Will you finally get to work already? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    >Those cute little Rovers that we have on Mars right now, Linux.

    Ackchyually, they're running vxworks.

  37. Vote with your wallet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... If we can't fix it ...

    So where's your contribution for converting Windows 10 from kernel-level spyware into a user-centric operating system?

    ... we ditch Windows.

    So you want consumers to pay for something that's broken in the box, then throw it away?

    Leaving aside the fact that Microsoft forced this operating system onto computers, people must vote with their wallets: Microsoft isn't supplying a product that protects data or people so people should switch to a product that does.

  38. Re: Will you finally get to work already? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ~90% of super computers run Linux.

  39. Re:Will you finally get to work already? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Steam is pretty good.

    The article is all about how you're being tracked by a company, and you advocate for Linux with Steam? Just ... wow.

  40. Spybot anti-beacon by nospam007 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Spybot abti-beacon fixes mst of it, even if it can't kill cortana.

    https://www.safer-networking.o...

  41. Poem for windows troll... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Using Windows 10 was your first mistake.
    Using skye was your second.
    Bothering to tell us was your third.
    We already know.

    1. Re:Poem for windows troll... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hate to tell you this, but us people who have Sr in our title, have a team of 20 people, and a 200k salary - in our world there is no "windows troll."

      You get a laptop from your company and you use what's on it that everyone else uses. You - you're just a loud kid with no career and an attitude that the world rotates around him. First, skype for business and skype are not the same thing - you would know this if you had an actual job. And second - go ahead and don't use skype for business in 90% of the corporate world. Your boss and coworkers won't be able to reach you, and you'll be fired in 2 days. But actually, someone like you wouldn't get hired in the first place, so don't worry about it.

      The computer and the software are a tool - nothing more. People who think it's an ideology - get a job loser - no one has time for your discussion about nothing.

    2. Re:Poem for windows troll... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      sorry bud, but this "us" you speak of - it's just you. the "us" on slashdot is people who were in college 20 years ago reading this site. we are now mostly career professionals here, and that gibberish basement nerd crap you wrote is completely disconnected from the reality the "us" of slashdot lives in. you're just a stupid little kid with zero professional experience. get a job moron.

    3. Re:Poem for windows troll... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Someone who calls skype for business "skype" has never had a real job. Stick to reading or reddit kid. The rest of us are too busy running the companies that provide you with everything you're accustomed to using, and for Chat, we use skype for business, and for VOIP we use Jabber, and our corporate email is Outlook. We don't care what you think - you'll never get hired to do anything important. Keep writing your little scripts. We just use the laptop the company gives us with the tools the other 80k people at the company use to work to together. Ugly social rejects are not welcome, and their opinions are irrelevant. We know you you think you're smarter than the world. But we don't have time to listen to your reasoning.

      And that is slashdot. Not you. You are more of a subreddit for millennials.

  42. Fix: Restore "Customer" instead of "User" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The ultimate problem is that Microsoft, Apple, Adobe, etc. have paying customers but over the past few years their marketing and business wonks have been looking covetously at how Facebook, Snapchat, Twitter, etc. exploit... err... I mean "interact" with their non-paying users and have decided that they want their have their cake and eat it to. If Microsoft wants to give away the software or hardware (without attaching conditions about what software the vendor can or can't sell) great, but if I'm buying a license for software to run on equipment I own that should (in an ideal world) mean you have no right to exploit me or my equipment for further monetary gain.

  43. Re:Will you finally get to work already? by Orphis · · Score: 1

    It works so well that I'm currently bisecting my kernel to find a regression for sound over HDMI on my HTPC that broken some versions ago.
    I'm currently down to some long list of 200 changes from some "drm-next" branch. Yay, so fun!

    Linux (the kernel) works like just any other kernel. The problems are usually in the userspace though.

  44. The problem with Windows is, it's too big by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    everyone has and uses it, and there are softwares only available for Windows, because it's too big and developers find too little business on Linux.

    But you can change that by switching, and making the developers target Linux as well. Every year that goes by, it gets easier and easier to port your software to Windows.

  45. Microsoft increases abuse. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Microsoft is EXTREMELY destructive toward users.

  46. Re:BS by iampiti · · Score: 5, Informative

    Yes, only Microsoft can fix Windows, but they won't do it unless they feel threatened.
    When the PS4 and Xbox one were about to be released Microsoft revealed that the Xbox would require constant connection to the Internet to play. They players revolted and Sony said they wouldn't do it. Microsoft (correctly, IMO) sensed that could be a fatal blow to their console and backtracked really fast.
    Something of that caliber would have to happen for they to remove all the spying in Windows. What could that be? I can only think of mass migration of governments and big companies. Alas, that is very unlikely to happen.
    In the end this is just another thing that shows how bad monopolies can be (In this case is a monopoly in the sense of "OS that can run Windows software and drivers", ReactOS could theoretically be an alternative but realistically they'd need billions of dollars to get close to Windows).

  47. everything tracks get over it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Tracking has been going on for years, I don't see anyone complaining about web retail tracking what your shopping for, or Google tracking everything about you.
    But let's pick on Microsoft because Windows 10 collects telemetry. Yes I totally think we are in a period of data collecting overkill but its been occurring for some time now and to single out Microsoft is being hypocritical. Tin foil hat people need to get over it, data, telemetry and personal information privacy is dead. Been dead for some time now and you were asleep at the privacy wheel while this was all going south.

    1. Re:everything tracks get over it by gweihir · · Score: 1

      There is a difference between things you can turn of and things you cannot. That is the whole point of the discussion. You seem to have missed that.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  48. Re:Will you finally get to work already? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't believe in Users. They're a myth.

  49. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  50. Re:Will you finally get to work already? by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    About 10 years I'd have agreed with you. But today? Aside of your gaming argument, this isn't the case anymore. Installation of tools and drivers is actually easier in Linux today than it is in Windows because way more tools are part of the whole distribution package. There are very few tools and programs I had to install manually lately, and I tend to use rather exotic tools due to my job.

    Your argument about games is (still) valid, though even there you can see improvement. With more and more games using standard platforms like Unity or Unreal Engine which come prepared to compile your programs in Windows/Linux/MacOS without any major code changes, games running natively in Linux becomes at least a reality in Non-AAA games with their own engines.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  51. Re: Will you finally get to work already? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Please explain how Steam on Linux will track all your activities when using the OS.

  52. Re:BS by zifn4b · · Score: 5, Informative

    Window 10 does track too much, and you can't even opt out of it.

    True, you can't opt out of it within Windows which is pretty much unethical in my book. There are third party tools available (like Spybot Antibeacon) where you really can turn it off.

    Know what the problem is? Remember all that talk about big data being the next big thing? It's here and all this "telemetry" data is being sold because it is considered very valuable.

    --
    We'll make great pets
  53. Hysteria about management by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I support Microsoft's excellent albeit imperfect drive to manage Windows going forward. You'd want your vehicle manufacturer to monitor your engine too- oh, wait, they already do! As an enterprise IT guy I can tell you we make good use of the data Microsoft collects from our Windows 10 Enterprise machines. We control it and get the benefit. Go ahead Microsoft!

  54. Re:Will you finally get to work already? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You do realize that there are about 10x more Linux machines out there than Windows machines? Cell phones, routers, servers, super computers, embedded systems... It is only the small and ever shrinking desktop niche market that is dominated by Windows.

  55. Re: Will you finally get to work already? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If they tried to run the Falcon9 flight software on Windows, the "telemetry" would probably return the entire rocket to Redmond. Wait, is that a bad thing or a good thing?

  56. Re: BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Spybot Antibeacon is decent, but best paired with W10Privacy.

    Here's the thing about Win10 though: changing general settings, registry keys, and group policy settings isn't enough. You also have to block many domains and ip's of various Microsoft telemetry servers! The thing still spits out data even with every conceivable setting and tweak utilized!

    W10Privacy includes adding firewall rules and hosts file entries to achieve this. I suggest copying those entries and blocking them at the gateway as well. Even then, every time a new MS patch comes out, I discover yet another process sending out unfocumented data to yet another telemetry server. It's fucking ridiculous.

  57. how much longer? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "I'm not saying ditch Windows. I'm saying let's fix this. If we can't fix it, then we ditch Windows."

    Why not? How much longer? This is not new. It's never going to get fixed. MS doesn't want to fix this. To them this is not a big - it's a feature.

    Ditch Windows. An ditch Mac OSX while you are at it.

    1. Re: how much longer? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, let's all grow moustaches and use Atari ST's!

  58. Re: BS by TheNarrator · · Score: 2

    The one advantage of closed source over open source is it lets the IP owner keep things broken that would otherwise be fixed by the community.

  59. Re:BS by LVSlushdat · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The *REAL* problem is you can use the Antibeacon tool to turn off the spyware aspects of Windows, but every time you get another "update" or new version from MS, they default those spyware aspects back on, so you're playing an endless game of "whack-a-mole" trying to keep MS's nose of your bidness.. I used/supported Windows for 20 years as a sysadmin, and never really trusted MS, but since Windows 10 came out, ANY trust I may have had for MS has evaporated. When I retired in 2010, I moved all of my computers over to Linux and thats where they'll stay..

    --
    THANK YOU, Edward Snowden!! Americans owe you a debt of gratitude (whether they know it or not..)
  60. Fix it, yeah sure. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't really see how.

    OK, so regardless of which "version" of Win10 you use and regardless of which levers, buttons and switches you disable, how are you going to fix the ones you cannot disable?

    IF you succeed at disabling, aka "fixing" as the writeup alludes, would it even still function? Then there is the issue of mircrocrap re-enabling various settings when an update is performed. Sure in a real IT environment that can be minimized to a point but does require IMV an undo amount of manpower, as for the home user it takes a lot more effort than most people are willing to apply and just say the hell with it and fly by the seat of their pants.

  61. Re: Will you finally get to work already? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You missed what he was saying. Most people just don't want to learn new things. End of story.

  62. GoG and Steam. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Both have games for Linux.

    Oh, you want Call Of Doodie fortyseven? That's not a linux problem, that's a CoD problem. When is Breath of the Wild coming out for PC? Never. So Windows is not usable because it can't replace your Nintendo Switch.

    Witcher? Linux.
    Don't Starve? Linux.
    Cities Skylines? Linux.
    Doom? Linux. Sort of. When they proposed it, it was supposed to be for Linux too, but until they get Vulcan (which would allow them access to consoles too, but not Mac unless Apple change their mind), you have to fuck about a bit.
    Flightsims are on linux, and recent ones at that. So are adventure games, top of the line ones. They're all there, just not as many. And most of the ones not work under WINE.

  63. Re: BS by Z00L00K · · Score: 1

    The only way to solve this is to beat Microsoft at their own game by figuring out the telemetry data that's sent then spam them with faked data that's completely weird.

    If enough people do that then the data they collect is useless.

    --
    If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
  64. the EU are incompetent buffoons by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    they made all that fuss about the browser thingy that no one care about that was basically a NON ISSUE, and here we have this windows 10 crap that spyies on everyone and they do NOTHING

    its the saddest and most useless burocracy in the face of the earth, no wonder the brits wanted to leave

  65. Re: BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Even worse, some ISP's like Vodafone in the UK won't let you connect your own wi-fi router to the telephone/ADSL socket. You have to use their wifi router (based on Huwaei system). So you can't even set up your own network firewall using a commercial router.

  66. Windows users.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There is going to come a point where that "required" piece of software is going to cost more then writing a new piece of software. The only question is how much are you willing to pay in security costs of all these "Microsoft features" which are unwanted before you bite the bullet and rewrite the needed application? Suck it up and start moving that unmovable software to a new platform with a rewrite and make sure the platform isn't going to lock you in like Windows.

  67. I will mostly do without Win10 by gweihir · · Score: 1

    As I am a gamer, unless Vulcan makes Linux version of most games a reality by the end of security support for Win7, I cannot fully get rid of it. But I will likely go for one machine for gaming only and a Linux box for everything else. Alternatively, if graphics passthrough works well by then, I will jail Win10 in a VM on a Linux base. But there is no way in this universe I am going to give Win10 access to my email, browsing, and other things.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  68. What setup will DOD, CIA and NSA use internally? by schwit1 · · Score: 1

    I doubt they would permit this data leaving their networks. Same for some law firms and any other orgs working with sensitive data.

  69. Re: BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    You can use the Data Protection Act in the UK to request that "a company provides all digital information that they store about you, and that where in binary/electronic format, a detailed easy to read clear, legible text explanation is provided alongside a digital copy". It will only cost a tenner.

  70. Re: BS by eneville · · Score: 1

    It would be quite hard to contest the data you get back though. It is also quite hard to ensure that their process costs them more money than the telemetry data they're selling on.

  71. Not as slick as all that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have finally made the switch to Linux Mint (Cinnamon) this year.

    And I have to say that, although it has working alternatives for pretty much everything I need,
    a fair number of those alternatives tend to be sub-par and buggy in comparison.

    In particular, I get a lot of random crashes that force a reboot every few days.
    Whenever I reboot, it resets its sound settings to default.
    And sometimes I lose network connectivity until I reboot.

    I also get UI freeze-outs that sometimes I can recover from, sometimes not.
    And the UI is pretty sluggish and clunky compared to Windows running on similar hardware,
    which makes it definitely less productive.

    It just seems overly brittle, in a general sense.

    Unfortunately, I'm not sure that the this general brittleness will ever become under control.
    Despite its popularity, the Mint team is just not that well funded.

    Hopefully Ubuntu will be less brittle and more in the consideration once they drop Unity for Gnome.
    But 18.04 LTS is still almost a whole year away.

    In the meantime, I will be toughing it out on Mint Cinnamon
    and waiting to see how well Sonya (and her younger siblings) improve things.

    Or perhaps I will just become blind (er, accustomed) to these niggling bugs over time,
    the way long time Linux users have done.

    1. Re:Not as slick as all that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like you have either bad power or flaky hardware or maybe both. You might have to spend a few bucks and get less flaky hardware, or maybe a UPS

  72. Shit "article" by DogDude · · Score: 1

    Where's the info? This article is about a Twitter rant, but then has no actual information in it. This was a waste of my time to even look at.

    --
    I don't respond to AC's.
  73. Re: BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why don't you just connect your router to their router?

  74. It does worse than that!!! by Khyber · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I caught Microsoft fucking my entire system over when I got new hardware and HAD to go with Windows 10 - after installing Windows 10 (Legit license) I had to install an audio driver.

    Naturally, the driver prompts me to reboot.

    First fucking thing it does - go straight into the "Updating computer, please wait."

    It wasn't updating. What it was doing was scanning my hard drive and wiping out anything that wasn't Microsoft-related - EVERYTHING in my Windows.old directory was wiped out - my music player (which was then replaced by Groove Player,) anything that was in my old Windows 7 user profile (in-progress design work, photography work I had JUST paid for and received, future business plans, almost-finished bylaws drafts,) the ONLY things it did not touch in the Windows.old directory were Microsoft's own things, anything and everything else was deleted from my system during that 'update.' PRogram Files (x86) and regular x64 directories were wiped of anything that wasn't Microsoft, as well.

    And there was no reason for that to happen, I had over 300GB free space on my drive and I know full and goddamned well Windows 10 updates didn't need to free up any space.

    So, here's see what Microsoft's Windows 10 actually does:

    1. Violate antitrust law by removing competing programs and replacing them with their own.
    2. Violate CFAA by purposefully scanning and deleting files without explicit permission.
    3. Violate IP law by destroying IP which doesn't belong to them.
    4. Possibly committing corporate espionage by sabotaging plans for the formation of corporations by destroying their charter and bylaw data which is in construction.
    5. Trespass to Chattels by violating the state of my system.
    6. Wire Fraud by committing such crimes over wire.

    I'm heading to the DA's office Tuesday to file charges. I'm done with these motherfuckers and I'm personally going directly after Satya Nadella's fucking wallet.

    --
    Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    1. Re:It does worse than that!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wait... you're telling me you installed a new OS (moved from Win7 to Win10) without backing up all of your data on external media -- ESPECIALLY including your User Profile?! That was silly.

      And you kept valuable user data in "Windows.old" or "Program Files"? (Both of those are system directories that you would expect to be largely overwritten or replaced by a major OS upgrade!)

      I doubt you'll find a court to agree with you that any of this is Microsoft's fault, although I wish you the best of luck in trying to recover or rebuild the data you've lost.

      You might wish to try getting a new hard drive and using forensic data recovery software on your old one. FTK Imager or SleuthKit might be able to recover some of your lost work. [I've successfully done this in the past, when I've made similar boneheaded mistakes, such as erasing and installing an OS on the wrong disk drive. :-) ]

      Best of luck!

  75. cashed cow by epine · · Score: 1

    Also known as "battered user syndrome".

    When all you've got is a deep frier, everything looks like browbeaten Timbit tempura.

    42 years now, and still haven't changed the original oil.

  76. Re:Will you finally get to work already? by knorthern+knight · · Score: 1

    > Installing drivers are not automatic, like the are for most devices under Windows today.

    Windows Update automatically installed new drivers for webcams... which made the webcams useless... oops. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/tec... And if you manage to revert the update, the next update will re-install the bad driver. Ask yourself... unless there is a security fix or a genuine feature improvement involved, ***WHY*** do you need constant driver updates?

    --

    I'm not repeating myself
    I'm an X window user; I'm an ex-Windows user
  77. Re: BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you say "track too much", it's like saying "rape too much", "steal too much", "spy too much", "harass too much", "bully too much".

    People should not be (deceptively) sold into top dollar (exclusively) enterprise solutions for the defacto, implied privacy and control that (competative) business people expect to have for the premium prices they are being charged.

    Never trust a business who can't build their own Posix (BSD/Linux) operating systems. Like Grammar; it aint hard, it just requires dedication, a moderate amount of intelligence, due dilligence, and _most_ importantly; a lack of laziness, complacency, and status quo stupidness.

  78. Way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ahead of you.

  79. an old saying... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "When the horse is dead, it is time to dismount." The Windows horse was mortally wounded at 8 and turned fatal with 10. Dismount please.

  80. Re:BS by mea2214 · · Score: 1

    You can also firewall all your Windows boxes, run your own DNS server, and hijack microsoft.com, msn.com, live.com, etc. Or simply whitelist IP ranges you need for various Windows 10 services and use Linux VMs for all other Internet related activities. Between this and the forced reboots which require a certain level of "hacking" to reliably disable Microsoft needs to have a big fat class action suit filed against them. There could be anti trust issues too if our current government were honest brokers of justice.

  81. Re: Will you finally get to work already? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So does NASA. Those cute little Rovers that we have on Mars right now, Linux.

    There are no rovers on Mars. Stop scamming the public.

  82. Gaming VMs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They're a thing. If you've got a spare GPU (which you do if you've got a desktop with an Intel processor and any dedicated GPU), you can use PCI passthrough to just give the GPU to the VM. I ground out 30 levels in ESO that way before audio problems got the better of me, but I blame that on my motherboard's crappy onboard sound card more than anything.

    1. Re:Gaming VMs by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      I bet my TrackIR that the Asus-Soundcard I have will crap out earlier...

      But I'm intrigued, could you give me some pointers?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  83. fix it! by sad_ · · Score: 2

    easy, just fork the code and remove all those tracking bits...
    what is that? you can't do that?
    well then there is nothing you can do to fix it, so ditch windows.

    --
    On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
  84. Re: BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So don't use them. Vote with your feet.

  85. WHY do they feel they need to do this anyway? by iq145 · · Score: 1

    Why is it so important to them to know what we're doing online? Why can't we opt-out? Are they that nosey? It gains them nothing! (This is why people kiss Ed Snowflake's butt to this very day, even though what he did was traitorous. He wasn't "exposing spying". He falsified his credentials and used other agents' identification so he could flat out steal sensitive information...)

  86. It is everywhere and it is anti-trust. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yep Windows 10, Server 2016, SQL 2016, Visual Studio etc etc, all of it can never be used in a secure environment simply because of the "phone home with all your dataz" approach from the vendor. The biggest risk to anyone contemplating using Microsoft software is the vendor of the software in this situation. Microsoft license even stipulates that by using their software you assign all copyright, and intellectual property rights to Microsoft. It really is anti-trust in behavior. I guess welcome to the world of corporate internet, where even your own thoughts don't even belong to you.

  87. LETS ASK JOHN OLIVER TO TALK ABOUT THIS! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    He WILL do it right.

  88. Hundreds of settings? by sabbede · · Score: 1

    That can't be right. Dozens, sure, but not hundreds.

  89. Re:BS by zifn4b · · Score: 1

    When I retired in 2010, I moved all of my computers over to Linux and thats where they'll stay..

    Kudos to you and I would do the same if it weren't for the fact that I can't use all the software I like on Linux and that is the problem. If Linux supported all the hardware and software that people commonly use, Windows would be a thing of the past.

    --
    We'll make great pets
  90. Re: BS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You can put a logging firewall between you and the internet. Any telemetry like packet sent to Microsoft that isn't accounted for is a violation. So submit two requests and diff them. Then sue them in small claims for the violation.