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Automakers Are Asking China To Slow Down Electric Car Quotas (electrek.co)
New submitter Kant shares a report from Electrek: The auto industry is once again attempting to slow down the rollout of electric vehicles. Virtually all automakers, except for Tesla of course, have sent a letter to the Chinese government in an attempt to have them drastically weaken their zero-emission vehicle mandate. As we previously reported, China, the world's biggest car market, has somewhat of an aggressive ZEV mandate that would force automakers to have zero-emission vehicles (ZEVs) represent 8% of new car sales as soon as 2018 and quickly ramp up to 12% by 2020. Now Germany's WirtschaftsWoche magazine (via Auto News) reports that the American Automotive Policy Council (AAPC), which represents Chrysler/Fiat, Ford, and GM, the European Automobile Manufacturers Association (ACEA), which represents all major European automakers, the Japan Automobile Manufacturers Association (JAMA) and the Korea Automobile Manufacturers Association (KAMA), have all sent a joint letter to China's Minister of Industry and Information Technology to ask for several significant changes to the mandate.
The "six recommended modifications" include slowing the rollout of the mandate by 1 to 3 years, reconsidering the penalty system if they don't meet the quota, having credits not only for all-electric cars but also plug-in hybrid cars, and basically making the whole mandate weaker so that they don't have to produce as many electric cars.
The "six recommended modifications" include slowing the rollout of the mandate by 1 to 3 years, reconsidering the penalty system if they don't meet the quota, having credits not only for all-electric cars but also plug-in hybrid cars, and basically making the whole mandate weaker so that they don't have to produce as many electric cars.
n/t
Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
I think that China is holding all the aces here, right? Doesn't hurt China if the world's car manufacturers pull out (less competition in the market for their domestic manufacturers).
Seems to me like something the US should have done a long time ago.
China should just give them the finger.
People buying new cars in China are the more effluent class who can afford to make some contribution to the environment. Mandating ZEV quota helps push more buyers to consider ZEV.
Sell more ZEV or just get out of the market.
I think far too many people in the world are used to the Americans. They are easily hoodwinked and their legislators are easily bribed with contributions to their election campaigns or to a Foundation of some kind. Moreover their politicians, with a few exceptions, do not have their country's or people's interest in mind and instead pursue a globalist neoliberal agenda. China is a different kettle of fish altogether.
The world is in for a big fucking surprise when China simply declines to play ball. They have their country, their rules, and anyone who wants to come into their market will abide by their laws. It's going to be a big shock to a lot of people who have never before encountered such an attitude. The next 3-5 years are going to be full of this kind of thing in industry after industry. Sucking up to them like Hollywood does putting Chinese actors in their films for no reason, or like Zuckerberg did trying to speak Mandarin, doesn't work, either. They see through it a mile away. They have more respect for people who love their own countries and don't take any shit from them. It's no coincidence that the word kowtow came into English from their language.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
Ultimately it could be good for all of us. If China stick to their guns it will accelerate electric vehicle production and development, cleaning the air for everyone. The only caveat is that clean power production has to keep up.
Coincidentally, "jama" means somethign like hindrance/obstacle/nuisance in Japanese. :)
I agree.
China is in the same place UK was in in the 1950's. For those of you too young to remember and who have not read, the famous Coloured Fogs of London (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Smog_of_London) killed between 4000 and 12000 people in 1952. Oddly enough, the cause of those events was the same then as it is now in China: burning of coal.
China is getting aggressive towards cleaning up their act. Car makers don't like it because it means that they must replace tooling which from their point of view is very expensive. Of course, having people sick from air so dirty that some people can't breathe is expensive also, but that's ok since the carmakers don't have to carry that particular expense on _their_ books. Pesky accountants, don't you know.
Many US cities had serious problems in the mid-20th century. One that has been in the US news lately is Youngstown, Ohio, as an example of a once great industrial center. Unfortunately selective memories neglect to include the fact that Youngstown of the mid-1940s was a poster child for industrial pollution (http://wytv.com/2014/10/27/mahoning-river-has-dirty-history/). Fixing things is always expensive yet somehow people always seem to prefer to create huge problem and then have to clean it up later.
The Chinese are trying to stave off much bigger problems. More power to them.
Don't take life too seriously; it isn't permanent.
(Common F. Sense) - "(Cough, Cough) I just know he's gonna make me cut my electric vehicle initiatives. Every single day the pollution is worse than the day before it."
(Greed N. Corruption) - "Hello Common, whaaats happening? Ummm, I'm gonna need you to go ahead come in tomorrow. Oh, Oh, and I almost forgot ahh, I'm also gonna need you to go ahead and come in on Sunday too, kay. We ahh lost some demand for oil this week and ah, we sorta need to play catch up. Oh, and one more thing, we're gonna need you to move those pollution-cutting initiatives to the bottom of the priority list. If you could do that, that would be greeeat. Thanks."
A non-competitive cry baby lobbyist looking for government handouts..
So, The U.S. dropped 2 nukes on Japan in the 1940s to stop Japan when they started producing cars that began to take market share from U.S. carmakers in the early 70s?!?! Even tongue in cheek this is just too stupid to be an american comment. It's just a Putinbot using his spare time to try and make americans look bad.
Looks like I'm going to have to change my /. filtering rules. Abjectly stupid Anonymous Cowards are just becoming too common.
Democracy is a sheep and two wolves deciding what to have for lunch. Freedom is a well armed sheep contesting the issue
even a 100 % electric car just moved its tail pipe to the powerplant that produces the electricity, either coal, or natural gas or whatever, not until the power plants are 100% green will there be zero emission electric cars
Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
How about the US repeal the nonsense "chick war" tariff on pick up trucks? see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
...should take the same stance. see how quick the car industry will be to adapt (they won't have a choice really).
instead of dragging along, asking for extentions after extention after exception etc.
On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
For heating - make sure the car is well insulated, and you don't need as much heat as you might think. A car is a small volume, after all, and the electric drivetrain does still produce heat. Teslas are being used, now, in nordic countries very sucessfully. Same goes for A/C.
And for charging - they have enough range to do a full morning and afternoon drive. Leave the car at a supercharger while you get lunch, and take a 20 minute break at another one during the afternoon, and you'll do your 600 mile roadtrip. Small price to pay for never seeing the inside of a gas station!
Prediction for end of Universe #42: Fencepost error in Quantum_bogosort.cpp
electric cars will make coal burning worse
love is just extroverted narcissism
Further reading:
0] TL;DR - Photos - https://www.theatlantic.com/ph...
1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
Major incidents in the US 1943, July 26, Los Angeles, California: A smog so sudden and severe that "Los Angeles residents believe the Japanese are attacking them with chemical warfare."
2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
Yup. You still hear old school car manufacturers saying 'Our EV's will be suitable for most people's daily commute.' You don't sell cars for people's 'daily commute'. That's a time of drudgery you don't want to think of. Mentioning it is saying, 'Yes, this will do this boring thing, but if you want to do anything interesting, you'll want one of our 'real cars' over there. Ones that use Petrol."
Meanwhile, Tesla has shown us how to build an electric car. Build it with a hyperspace trigger instead of a gas pedal, build it to charge fast, build lots of stations to charge it fast, and sell people the exciting road trip to anywhere. And make it a nice, pleasant, relaxing place for your daily commute, too, while selling the dream that one day, this car will do the daily commute for you.
Prediction for end of Universe #42: Fencepost error in Quantum_bogosort.cpp
That's the full story. Petrol engines are really inefficient, and can't save more energy by doing things like regenerative braking. Even if your electric car is powered by 100% fossil fuel plants, you are way ahead because the power stations are much more efficient. And you can do more flue gas cleaning at a large power station than you can do on a million car's exhaust pipes. And then, with every extra bit of renewable power that hits the grids, your EV becomes even cleaner.
Prediction for end of Universe #42: Fencepost error in Quantum_bogosort.cpp
"Can't we just clad up those ugly 1970s high-rises at a low cost and make the whole city more visually attractive?"
So you are saying China should by edict mandate a "Great Leap Forward" in automotive design? Sounds good. You can' t make an omelette without breaking eggs, after all.
China, the world's biggest car market, has somewhat of an aggressive ZEV mandate that would force automakers to have zero-emission vehicles (ZEVs) represent 8% of new car sales as soon as 2018 and quickly ramp up to 12% by 2020.
Perhaps the issue is that auto manufacturers can't control what consumers buy, only what they offer consumers to buy?
What percentage of cars sold last year in China were electric? How will the removal of the subsidy cause more electric cars to be sold?
When Ford first came out with the Expedition, in order to comply with CAFE (Corp. Avg. Fuel Efficiency) standards they forced every dealer to take into inventory one high-mileage Ford Escort for every Expedition they took in to sell, which caused a lot of Ford Escorts to be sold (at a loss) by the Ford dealer, offset by the profits on the Excursion. I envision a similar market distortion as the only way to meet these targets.
BTW, environmental emotions aside, lets not forget that 2018 is only 6 months away, and the new models for 2018 will roll-out in about 3 months...
Ken
You had years if not decades to prepare for this. I'm looking at you too Mazda, Subaru, Honda and Toyota with your absent or weak offering.... You had the facilities, the know how and the people. Instead startups developed the technology from scratch as most of you chose to drag your feet as slowly as possible to artificially preserve your old business model. Now you're crying over the fact the you're not ready and that the world is changing too fast... You don't deserve ANY pity as you are the artisan of your own demise.
The US dropped 2 nukes on Japan when 0 would have done because they had not yet been bombed to shit like everyone else involved in WWII.
What a delightfully BS rationalization about something you don't understand...
Ken
"listen, it's too bad you can't breath the air, but we've got to protect our profits or the shareholders will revolt"
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Total bullshit. America didn't enter the war because of the hangover from WWI, yet another EuroWar. The Republicans in Congress were very anti-war and very anti foreign "entanglements" Defending democracy didn't emerge as an issue until after WWII when the U.S. realized it was the antidote to German, Italian, and Japanese Fascism and Soviet and Chinese Communism. Later, it achieved a life of its own when it was realized it kept Europe from descending again into a collection of small-minded warring states, and when it was realized dictatorships were inherently unstable.
At the time the U.S. dropped the 2 nukes, the planning on the U.S. side was for between a 250,000 to 1,000,000 man invasion of Japan. MacArthur, being about as bright as yer basic dolt, figured it could be done on the cheap. Nimitz knew better. Truman then had to decide what to do. Germany had been defeated, the will to finish the war was ebbing in the U.S. An undefeated Japan meant another war in the future when an emboldened USSR had already taken half of Europe and Mao let Chiang-Kai-shek exhaust his forces against the Japanese figuring the U.S. would defeat Japan and China could descend into the hell he had in mind for it. Given the stakes, at this point the U.S. had already suffered hundreds of thousands of dead, and now he was asked to either (1) sign up for a few more, or (2) see if he couldn't scare the Japanese into stopping. He opted for the latter, arguing for the former meant explaining to the American people how they needed to sacrifice more for maybe a few years more. Sooner or later, word of the atomic bomb would have gotten out. And then he'd have to explain why he hadn't used it to stop the war sooner. Oh, and an invasion of Japan would have resulted more than a million Japanese dead as well, they were arming their school kids with pitchforks to fight the Americans at all costs. And they would have done it for the Emperor.
Sucking up to them like Hollywood does putting Chinese actors in their films for no reason, or like Zuckerberg did trying to speak Mandarin, doesn't work, either. They see through it a mile away. They have more respect for people who love their own countries and don't take any shit from them. It's no coincidence that the word kowtow came into English from their language.
Well, your criticism of Zuckerberg is spot on, but he's mostly doing that through greed because getting access to China would get him access to a lot of money. Facebook won't ever be allowed in China under the current regime unless Zuckerberg does a PR disaster type sell out that offers a greatly crippled Facebook that the PRC completely controls. The main reason Facebook isn't allowed in China is that the Chinese Communist Party's greatest fear is being overthrown by spontaneous protests and they won't allow it in as it is now because Facebook tools could be used to spread protests easily.
However, I think you're way off base in the film industry criticism. Things are getting better for black people in Hollywood now. I'm not saying they are perfect, but they are certainly a lot better than, say, 10 years ago. Asian and HIspanic people are very badly underrepresented in Hollywood right now and I'm not going to complain about anything that gets them more exposure. I'm an American caucasian, but I like the film industries of China, Japan and South Korea in general and watch their films from time to time. So for me, if there are more Asians on the screen, that is a good thing, wherever they are from. You need to understand too that China in particular is a massive market with a foreign film quota system and Hollywood is severely limited in what it can even show there. For this reason, Hollywood is actively seeking major financial backing from Chinese investors because if Chinese companies help pay for a Hollywood production, that can be used to get the film considered as a "local" production and get past the quota. So if these investors require as a condition that more Asian actors get used, more power to them. And some American productions deliberately use big name Asian actors (ie. Rogue One) as a drawing card for getting more butts in theaters in Asia. I'm not seeing anything wrong with that. If a guy like John Cho gets better roles as a result of this kind of thing, I'm seeing that as a big plus.
for sticking to it's guns and giving the finger to the automakers. I hope they force innovation or the destruction of the automotive industry and give it the change it needs. This way we will FINALLY see competition for Tesla in the states.
Wheel of Time: Book by Book and Sumview (summary review) Bigdady92 style: http://bigdady92.blogspot.com/
With every car you buy, you also get a bicycle. Instant 50% ZEV market penetration.
Have gnu, will travel.
If only _your_ forefathers had been among the >2million predicted armed forces casualties in allied forces needed to subjugate Japan or among the tens of millions of Japanese that would have sacrificed themselves for the emperors honour.
Ah indeed, if only so many more had died just so that drinkypoo could be right when he says that only one atomic bomb needed to be dropped.
Dropping the second showed that it wasn't a one off and threatened many more (even though the larder was almost bare).
But drinkypoo has his magic crystal ball that gives him omniscient powers... Well that's what he thinks anyway.
Democracy is a sheep and two wolves deciding what to have for lunch. Freedom is a well armed sheep contesting the issue
Looks like a fine way to boost Chinese industry by refusing to fill demand It’s kinda like walking around with a ”kick me” sign taped to your back
Of course, having people sick from air so dirty that some people can't breathe is expensive also
Don't forget the social discontent that will rise when the housing market finally collapses. Now the people are overall happy enough to ignore this and other major problems in China... but one event can very well trigger discontent across the board, and keeping the country socially stable is more important than keeping it healthy (the second is just a tool to achieve the first).
Electrek via Auto News via Germany's WirtschaftsWoche magazine... why not post to the less biased article instead of the "all automakers are bad but Tesla" one?
There is a whole lotta bitching about American companies in this thread. Kinda ignoring the fact that the Koreans, the Japanese and the European manufacturers are part of this complaint too. You know, like Toyota with all the hybrids, Nissan who makes the Leaf electric...
People seem to be ignoring the fact that there are a lot of electric only vehicles already for sale. Roughly 700-800,000 sold last year worldwide. This isn't about producing them, it is about getting the production and intellectual property to China. Electric vehicle production is ramping up at every automotive manufacturer, and China basically threw a tantrum and wants it all built in the homeland. Tesla didn't complain because they recently negotiated their own agreement with China for production there, and didn't want to stir the pot.
One of the points is that the Global OEMs are asking for the same subsidy that China already gives to Chinese OEMs.
That is assuming the Chinese market can bear 8-12% electric sales vehicles in the next few years. California has had a requirement for many years and is just now approaching 5-6% sales. I couldn't find hard numbers quickly, but that seems to be a good, but high estimate.
Only a disingenuous douchebag would suggest that i am the first person to point this out. But keep making excuses so that you can feel better about how proud you are that we nuked the Japanese twice.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
When an auto OEM company works out a system to retrofit electric motors to petrol cars we will see a drastic turn around.
rip out petrol engine, petrol tank and drive train.
Install batteries in place of engine, install electric motors, control system
Install charger at home on solar system.
Go well
Seriously, if they do, they are as much an idiot as Trump is.
China's reason for doing EVs is to that they can use coal to power their vehicles, and not depend on imports. In addition, they know that if they are aggressive with regard to EV sales, then western companies will not be able to keep up with CHina.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
uh no.
In china, they run all of their coal plants WITHOUT pollution controls. As such, ICE cars in china are LESS polluting than are the coal plants.
In addition, in CHina, the average coal plant is high 40s. It is only those in the last couple of years that are in the mid 50s. In fact, the world's most efficient coal plant is only 61.5% and that just opened last year in Germany.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
so many idiots here.
Let me ask you something. How exactly will those EVs be powered? By their electrical grid. And what is their main sources of electricity in their grid? Well, it turns out that it is 80-85% COAL.
Now, where exactly do you think that they will get the majority of their electricity from for charging during the nighttime? It will NOT be solar. Yeah. COAL.
China is NOT pushing EVs for cleaning up their air. They are pushing it in hopes of destroying western car makers, along with dropping their oil imports to ZERO. They are perfectly happy to increase all of their coal burning from 60% , to 90%, load. IOW, the grid will go from 80-85% coal based to about 90-95% coal.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
BTW, the CHinese coal fleet is pretty low at around 38.6% efficiency.
.25 TW running ~90-95% load. Note that this means that Europe and America can NOT increase their emissions from coal without building new plants. OTOH, about 700 GW of electricity for china is coming from its coal, and it can add another .5 GW over night. That is a LOT. IOW, just by running their current plants, they will use more coal than Europe and America COMBINED.
Of course, that is better efficiency than Europe's (38) and Americas (37.4).
Of course, the real problem is NOT efficiency, but amount of it being burned.
CHina has 1.2TW of coal plants running at 60% load factor, while BOTH America and Europe are at
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
I never thought nor claimed that you were the first to perform your acts of hindsight and revisionism (and am thus not the target of your charming potty mouth) but that doesn't change my opinion of those who snarkily divorce themselves from the realities of the times and judge acts taken as poor while dismissing acts untaken as somehow better without any proof beyond their opinioin.
That's why my comments on your revisionism concerned your flippant dismissal of the deaths of all those who certainly would have died had that other path been taken.
But that magical crystal ball of yours gives you the certitude that your revisionism is free of any unwanted secondary effects and leaves you so very high up on that imaginary high ground you imagine that you live upon.
Democracy is a sheep and two wolves deciding what to have for lunch. Freedom is a well armed sheep contesting the issue
I never thought nor claimed that you were the first to perform your acts of hindsight and revisionism
False. Here's where you did it:
You clearly imply here that this idea came from my mind here, when you suggest that these ideas came from my crystal ball. You don't even know what you're saying, kid.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Snort, that's called _sarcasm_ drinkypoo.
You claimed to _know_ that dropping the bombs was a mistake without any consideration for what would have happened had another path been taken: (the millions of allied troops and Japanese population that _would_ have died had WWII not come to a rapid conclusion.)
You clearly have given _no_ thought to how these much more numerous deaths impinge on the morality of your stand, thus my mockery of how you came to hold it as being magical -- because it clearly isn't logical.
Democracy is a sheep and two wolves deciding what to have for lunch. Freedom is a well armed sheep contesting the issue
Yet another content free post from basilbrush.
The USA is not China's only rival, you twit & not even the biggest (that would be Japan & Korea had you actually been capable of reading and understanding what I posted previously) but you keep missing the point there troll boy. The point is that China _cannot_ make more batteries without more lithium and all foreseeable supplies have already been bespoken.
Come on trollboy post a reference for how China is going to two magnitudes more batteries.
But you won't.
Because you cannot.
Because you are a troll.
Democracy is a sheep and two wolves deciding what to have for lunch. Freedom is a well armed sheep contesting the issue