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Studies Find Evidence That Meditation Is Demotivating (nytimes.com)
An anonymous reader shares an excerpt from a report written by behavioral scientists Kathleen D. Vohs and Andrew C. Hafenbrack: The practical payoff of mindfulness [meditation] is backed by dozens of studies linking it to job satisfaction, rational thinking and emotional resilience. But on the face of it, mindfulness might seem counterproductive in a workplace setting. To test this hunch, we recently conducted five studies, involving hundreds of people, to see whether there was a tension between mindfulness and motivation. As we report in a forthcoming article in the journal Organizational Behavior and Human Decision Processes, we found strong evidence that meditation is demotivating.
Some of the participants in our studies were trained in a few of the most common mindfulness meditation techniques. They were instructed by a professional meditation coach to focus on their breathing or mentally scan their bodies for physical sensations, being gently reminded throughout that there was no right or wrong way to do the exercise. Other participants were led through a different exercise. Some were encouraged to let their thoughts wander; some were instructed to read the news or write about recent activities they had done. Then we gave everyone a task to do. Among those who had meditated, motivation levels were lower on average. Those people didn't feel as much like working on the assignments, nor did they want to spend as much time or effort to complete them. Meditation was correlated with reduced thoughts about the future and greater feelings of calm and serenity -- states seemingly not conducive to wanting to tackle a work project. The studies also found that meditation "neither benefited nor detracted from a participant's quality of work." Furthermore, Vohs and Hafenbrack found that a financial bonus for outstanding performance did not overcome the demotivating effect of mindfulness. "While the promise of material rewards will always be a useful tool for motivating employees, it is no substitute for internal motivation," the report reads.
Some of the participants in our studies were trained in a few of the most common mindfulness meditation techniques. They were instructed by a professional meditation coach to focus on their breathing or mentally scan their bodies for physical sensations, being gently reminded throughout that there was no right or wrong way to do the exercise. Other participants were led through a different exercise. Some were encouraged to let their thoughts wander; some were instructed to read the news or write about recent activities they had done. Then we gave everyone a task to do. Among those who had meditated, motivation levels were lower on average. Those people didn't feel as much like working on the assignments, nor did they want to spend as much time or effort to complete them. Meditation was correlated with reduced thoughts about the future and greater feelings of calm and serenity -- states seemingly not conducive to wanting to tackle a work project. The studies also found that meditation "neither benefited nor detracted from a participant's quality of work." Furthermore, Vohs and Hafenbrack found that a financial bonus for outstanding performance did not overcome the demotivating effect of mindfulness. "While the promise of material rewards will always be a useful tool for motivating employees, it is no substitute for internal motivation," the report reads.
they just realized that their work assignments weren't very meaningful?
So in other words meditating daily does not motivate most people to want to do their shitty jobs any more than not meditating. Got it.
Spinning around for hours is not productive!?
You are now breathing manually.
I think these people just realized the actual value of what they were doing.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
You are now blinking manually.
#DeleteFacebook
We can't have people being zen about everything instead of stabbing each other in the back and ratting everybody out to Corporate.
... and other pratices of spritiuality and stoicism makes you more chill and less prone to societies rate-race bullshit.
Next up:
Eating healthy has you spend less money at fast-food joints!
Learning a real skill or art has you spend less time watching TV and spending money on pointless tat!
Regular good sex with a cute sweetheart has you spend less money on expensive brand fashion!
News brought to you by CORI - Captain Obvious Research Institute.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
I find it really hard to call investigations like this 'science' when they're so subjective and impossible to measure in a consistent manner. That's not to say that having numbers helps guarantee that research is 'science'. Look at so-called climate 'science'. Yes, there are numerical measurements of various kinds involved, but they've also been subjected to 'adjustments' that render them untrustworthy. Or these numerical values have been derived in questionable ways, especially for measurements relating to thousands or millions of years ago. Science requires the use of raw, unadjusted, objective numerical measurements in order to be carried out properly.
"While the promise of material rewards will always be a useful tool for motivating employees, [...]" [citation needed]
The title is total clickbait.
From the article: "Then we tracked everyone’s actual performance on the tasks. Here we found that on average, having meditated neither benefited nor detracted from a participant’s quality of work."
Being content makes you less motivated change things.
munchies
Every time you give a person the chance to actually think about things, they get depressed. Because things are actually shit, in actual reality. It's just that we are kept so busy by jobs and everything, that most people never in their entire lives get the chance to actually think about it enough, to get there.
But the depression is only, because they also realize how little they can do about it, *because* everyone else doesn't care and can't care.
Give *everyone* enough free time, and you have a revolution, stat.
Which sounds bad, but be it slow or fast, changing things for the better is ultimately a necessary good thing. The turmoil during the times of change are simply an artifact of that. Nothing more. We accept them, and they will pass.
Then again, I probably lost most of you at this point, and everybody is too stressed to bother with this here too, on top of it all.
(When actually, it’s just that the wealth generated by said automation is not owned by you and me, when it could be. ... E.g. by *us* buying the robots and us still applying for jobs, but letting the robots do them for us. Or with a robot tax. Or just with everything becoming so dirt-cheap that we barely need to work to afford it. Instead of certain leeches in suits just continuing to mooch on society. ... No communism etc needed. Just the biggest possible enemy of a modern for-profit corporation: An actually free market.)
.... I do mindfulness meditation. It helps relieve stress, to learn the physical precursors of your triggers and fight off the reactions to them. I generally do it late in the day, for the specific purpose of de-compressing, relaxing, at a time when I don't necessarily need to be motivated.
So meditating made them less eager to participate in your study.
"When I first heard Daydream Nation it quite frankly scared the living shit out of me." -- Matthew Stearns
This (that.)
I saw a therapist for awhile, and she brings up meditation exercises and "radical acceptance" to deal with anxiety / frustration / anger.
Where you learn to accept things as they are and not give a fuck. So yeah, it'll have a demotivational effect. It might even make people believe they are powerless to change things that they in fact can change.
You are now swallowing manually.
it's not that I'm lazy. It's that I just don't care.
Are they worth changing? Suppose I've observed my neighbor doing something with lawns or fences or pets or trees or decorations or whatever that could potentially annoy me. I could pressure them. I could even start pestering the HOA or whatever; if one exists it'll back me.
I'm not sure everyone reading will realize example abound, so how about a coworker having some tedious habit of mouthbreating or grossly misusing "literally" all the time.
Your point stands, people might abandon more important causes that really affect their lives. But controlling your own measures of contentment and expectation really does help you be at peace with the universe's bullshit.
I've been doing mindfulness meditation for about 40 years.
It's NOT a panacea as many therapists and pop psych books would have you believe.
I'm still as neurotic as I was when I was a teenager.
During periods when I was deeply into it, I didn't give a shit about much of anything. I was also a pushover and I agreed to some really stupid things.
Buddha taught the middle way (even though he abandoned his entire family to pursue his goal - that's NOT the Middle Way) and we need to keep things in perspective.
We evolved to have automatic functions and I think we need to respect them - a billion years of Evolution cannot be completely wrong.
Meditation is realization that studies are irrelevant.
It's not the meditation that is demotivating. It's the earthy-crunchy self-actualization and self-promotion nonsense associated with it, especially by that group of frauds called the "Center for Self Leadership". Just ran into one of their advocates, who believes "there is no point to training, since it doesn't prove anything, it's all the quality of the therapist". So they pat their own backs into convincing themselves they're useful, don't measure their results, but float on a sea of self-congratulations from their "empowered" suckers that actually discredits the measurement of achievement or criticism of any sort.
Much like giving students "attendance awards" for activities at which they achieved nothing, it devalues and discourages success.
When in reality things are bad, that badness is present in your system, whether you are conscious of it or not.
If you maintain/cultivate ignorance, that badness doesn't go away, it is still there influencing things subconsciously, resulting in for example unnecessary muscle tension, or getting angry/irritated/scared at certain people/situations/whatever.
Meditation allows you to become aware of how you avoid things, and of the underlying badness itself. Then you can learn to accept it, which at least saves you the effort needed to resist it (maintaining ignorance is a huge energy drain).
Or perhaps if you understand it better, you can even change the causes of it, which you cannot if you don't even observe it at all.
Meditation is not the same as just stopping and thinking.
Perhaps you avoid bad thoughts with activities. When stopping those activities, then indeed you are confronted with "bad" thought patterns. But still those patterns are just a tactic of avoiding deeper badness underneath.
With meditation, you can learn to look at all those thought/behavior patterns, look at how and what you are avoiding, get a better understanding of what's real and what isn't, and what you REALLY need to improve things.
Not that thinking is bad, it is a useful tool. But if you are trapped in bad thoughts, then those very same thoughts might not be able to help you get out of themselves, so a different perspective is needed.
(yeah, I know, wrong audience)
If you go in believing meditation will improve your life then its a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you go in open-minded or not having much faith in it then its one of those things that just wont work. It's a placebo.
> But on the face of it, mindfulness might seem counterproductive in a workplace setting.
You don't say.
For me, meditation helps me worry less about all the million things I have to do and focus better on one thing at a time. It also helps me take a rest when Iâ(TM)m getting really tired. Sometimes I fall asleep. Either way, I can get up refreshed and then get back to work with a clearer head.
So I buy the demotivating effect. I think I need that sometimes to reduce the worry and distracting thoughts.
So meditation gave room for wage slaves to realize the fallacies pushed on them by their oppressors...
Our touchy feely dentist does weird things like having someone on staff to offer you a hand or neck massage. I replied "no thank you, I prefer to remain tense, keeps me sharp".
https://www.ped30.com/2018/06/...
Has your meditation practice influenced how you lead?
Having a beginnerâ(TM)s mind informs my management style. Iâ(TM)m trying to listen deeply, and the beginnerâ(TM)s mind is informing me to step back, so that I can create what wants to be, not what was. I know that the future does not equal the past. I know that I have to be here in the moment.
!!! ? That is what these guys are unwittingly doing ! The solution is to have strictly scheduled simultaneous coffee breaks for everybody (remember the recess buzzer in school).
IMHO - Meditation viewed in a vacuum sans underlying Buddhist philosophy is incoherent, but unfortunately common. The Buddha taught that the point of meditation is to achieve awakening, which is done though the reduction of craving and aversion. By reducing ones fear of failure or desire for success one becomes more free from the suffering inexorably associated with fleeting pursuits, though they are arguably the primary drivers of our economic system. Motivation to pursue things that don't really increase your happiness (i.e. working like a dog to please your boss or to avoid feeling like a loser or to buy a Lambo) will dissipate the more one has the focus to see what really matters in life, which is what meditation will lead to if done correctly. Yet again, the NYT misses the point!
I had a decent job with a mainstream employer.
There was a lot of email to wade through.
Much of which seemed pointless.
For a reason I don't recall (probably going on leave for a week or two) I built up a backlog of email.
Due to the need to do actual WORK It was not practical to address the backlog.
Most of the backlog went unanswered
Most of the backlog went unread.
There were no repercussions.
I started looking at email just once a day.
then once every few days
then once a week.
There were no repercussions.
If there was something important to address, people would call/voicemail, or drop by my cube.
If I knew there was something specific being emailed, I would watch for it.
Much stress was avoided
Much time was saved
There were no repercussions.
I remained with that company for several years on good terms.
There is much bullshit even in good jobs. ...from the point of view of those whose purpose -assigned or chosen- is the creation and propagation of bullshit
Perhaps -from time to time- mentally "stepping back" and asking 'what is really going on here'
allows some of the bullshit to be detected and avoided.
the avoidance of bullshit probably represents a loss of productivity.
Those who practice such avoidance
may be seen as lacking
Motivation.
Breathe in
hold
Exhale....
To those who claim "Resistance is futile"
I reply...
"Ohm".... Ohmmmm..... OOOhmmm
When one spends time doing meditation, one can start to see how stupid things are in the world around us. That can be demotivating. BUT, it can also open up new paradigms. Sitting still, doing nothing (except breathing of course), there is a lot of noise in our heads. After a while (time frame indeterminant), the noise subsides and often a clear idea emerges about a path to follow. Such an activity is similar to doing software development when an difficult problem is encountered. Getting away from the problem and maybe taking a quiet walk reveals the source and the solution to the problem.
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!" -- Dr. Strangelove
I find it really hard to call investigations like this 'science' when they're so subjective and impossible to measure in a consistent manner. That's not to say that having numbers helps guarantee that research is 'science'. Look at so-called climate 'science'. Yes, there are numerical measurements of various kinds involved, but they've also been subjected to 'adjustments' that render them untrustworthy. Or these numerical values have been derived in questionable ways, especially for measurements relating to thousands or millions of years ago. Science requires the use of raw, unadjusted, objective numerical measurements in order to be carried out properly.
Let me get this straight - In your view Cosmology is not at all science. Astronomy is not science. Anything that does not have a har number is not science.
Cool definition bro!
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
I would assume that being work-focused and driven is not the state one achieves with mindfulness, particularly if you are in the wrong job.... For some jobs I could see mindfulness being very beneficial, eg social worker, teacher perhaps?
Secular meditation makes perfect sense.
The brain is not a computer! Over-use of specific cognitive pathways can create emotional problems, chemical imbalances, a severe lack of objectivity, and unwise harmful decisions.
Meditation is not unlike the athletic practice of resting after a workout. It heals up all the damage caused by over-use, allows the brain to right itself, which in turn provides emotional stability, clear thinking, and the ability to make wise and productive decisions.
Perfectly coherent; no religious philosophy needed.
Consider that behind understanding there is a certain awareness that puts one outside of the usual human beliefs and activities. There is theology as well as philosophy involved. The great religious leaders are consistent in rejection of this world. Those who strive tend to want more of this world whereas people a bit more advanced seek nothing at all. The temptations of Christ are a huge example with a shocking list of things people most value being described as worthless. Looking at the span of time that has already passed in this universe a human life span is almost zero. How can a thing have value that only exists for a very brief moment? Is advancement in society or living conditions of any value at all? Imagine if people took the instructions of Christ seriously. "Take all that you have and give it unto the poor.". That one sentence would totally destroy the entire structure of this world. Buddha and Lao Tze would teach the same lessons in different ways. Own nothing, seek nothing valued in this world and even more all are part of meditation . When Christ remarked "Pick up your cross and follow me." we are being instructed to make our lives a living crucifiction. By rejecting the desires and values of this world one is open to salvation.
Maybe he's thinking of cosmetology and astrology.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
The secret to happiness is to remove false expectations.
This research is terribly short-sighted. In addition to the things already pointed out, having a mental "break" from tasks, complex things, burdensome work, etc. I would argue will probably be good for your motivation long term.
Personally, as hard as it is to do sometimes, the best thing for my motivation and performance often times is to remove myself from something that's really bugging me or challenging me. Coming back I feel ready to try again and usually with some new ideas.
For this study we trained three sets of people in common coding techniques, they were instructed to think in terms of âseparation of concernsâ(TM), âabstractionâ(TM) and to âwrite unit testsâ(TM) - and the results indicated massive demotivation in the face of of an actual programming task in a team of very experienced programmers....
I'm so demotivated I hardly had the energy & strength to comment...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
first, my background: I've been practicing buddhist meditation for 15 years. I've even lived at temples and completed extensive retreats. I currently live at a temple and practice 2-3 hours 3-4 days a week (permitting) along with my full time job. I am single and not dating (I'm on slashdot...).
Meditation is not a cure all like it hocked in the media. It wont solve your depression or make you less anxious or make you last longer in bed or....
Done with proper guidance and care, both in terms of access to long term practitioners for advice and to medical care in case something unpleasant happens, because it can and probably will eventually, it can be unbelievably beneficial to the practitioner and those surrounding them.
Meditation does however, have a great effect on a ton of stuff. In fact, it addresses the problem that supercedes all other problems, making it something of a cure all for all sorts of ails.
the difference between the statements of meditation doesn't cure anxiety or depression and blah blah blah, and meditation does have a great effect on a ton of stuff, is that meditation deals with how life unfolds moment to moment from an internal perspective (from your perspective, you're the one doing it after all). And when you start to understanding whats REALLY going on moment to moment, and how all of this works, a lot of that painful, negative stuff just stops happening.
That takes many, many years of practice. It may make you a better worker because you're spending less time dealing with internal crap that prevents you from focusing correctly, and it may allow you to see boring things in a new way which isn't painful. But that doesn't necessarily make you fill them out any faster, it just makes you less miserable to all others. So it both does and it doesn't have a giant effect.
It's great that meditation is starting to become more common, but it will never work in the way these corporate people want it to.
A lot of the comments suggest that meditation helps people see that a lot of the work they've been doing was meaningless, or make work, or unnecessary. Do you really need meditation for that? I mean, can't people just think for themselves and sort out what's important.
I've been in the situation of having meaningless make work, and went along for the money, but it was a cold blooded decision based upon looking at the various alternatives. I'd make the money and then pursue the things I really cared about in my free time, and when the opportunity arose, I changed to what looked like a more rewarding job (financially or otherwise), and, if that job didn't work out, then try again.
What would meditation have gotten me?
Pay no attention to them Buddists, sez the boffin from Catholic U.
This is because most of what is done in a workplace is just absolutely useless and when you take the time to look at what you get in return for your hard work in most workplaces .. well, there goes motivation because you will realize your are expendable and what ever you do you can't change anything and nobody cares what you do at the end of the day.
Anything that does not have a har number is not science.
I looked that up. The har number is 7,136,291,900. Had to Bing it, though.
Gee, I didn't realize that selling a house was so involved -- I guess they really DO repeat the results.
If the universe is someone's simulation -- does that mean the stars are just stuck pixels?
Thinking about breathing? Srsly?!!!!!
I do that automatically pretty much all the time. Seems like a total waste of time.
Think about cutting your toe nails efficiently. At least that would be useful.
Idiots. /s
I'll bet none of them said they were doing it BEFORE becoming billionaires.
Disregarding trivial nonsense has been a cornerstone of my work style for years. It takes my bosses some getting used to, but the good ones end up loving me. So much email is, indeed, trivial nonsense.
Anything that does not have a har number is not science.
I looked that up. The har number is 7,136,291,900. Had to Bing it, though. Gee, I didn't realize that selling a house was so involved -- I guess they really DO repeat the results.
har har.
But anyhow, My astronomy friends, who are restricted to observing and reporting would be amused that that AC on Slashdot does not consider their work as science.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
What the fuck kind of kindergarten cosmology and astronomy are you doing to not be doing extensive mathematics and computation?! Those are some of the most mathematically-intense fields there are! Calculating and simulating the orbital dynamics of millions of bodies is not mathematically trivial, for example.
Despite your protestations, it is all observational, and those intense mathematics are being updated all the time.
Which by the way, means the old mathematics were quite wrong.
I consider it science, AC's might think otherwise.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
If you're working a job you dislike, meditation will help you realize that you don't like it. You're getting in touch with your subconscious. It may have been trying to tell you that there are better, more fulfilling options that will make you happier.
Meditation has always helped me be more creative. If your job doesn't allow for you to be creative, meditation will probably demonstrate to you what you've been missing. Coming out of a meditation session to do mundane work isn't a particularly good match. In fact I'd imagine it would just make the work that much less desirable to do, which is what was found in the study.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
Hello, I saw your article in the New York Times about mindfulness meditation, and the lack of positive results in a test of motivation and business skills following a session. The issue is that you studied the wrong type of meditation. All the studies that indicated improved performance after meditation (or of regular practitioners of meditation) were done with Transcendental Meditation. TM is the most extensively studied meditation technique, with the most positive measurable results. But all meditation techniques are not the same; the use of the word “meditation” is not restricted or copyrighted, so studying “meditation” is like studying “medicine” without specifying which medicine is being tested. Mindfulness meditation tends to make people passive, while TM makes people dynamic, yet calm and happy. I suggest you consult the research on TM to learn more. Let me know if you have any questions or comments. Bruce Merchant
The whole point of meditation is to bring your total focus into the current moment, the here and now, and to help you understand that you are complete and whole in that moment .... that you don't NEED anything.
So doesn't it make sense that something trains you to feel complete in the moment and helps you understand that you don't need to be somewhere else or to collect more things would make you feel less motivation to work harder for no reason in order to chase and acquire more things?
They blew the concept of acceptance, which is not to meekly "accept things as they are" so much as to "accept that things are as they are and act wisely to change them." Programmers generally know, unsupervised beginners can make a mess. Try meditating with experts.
this the actual goal of meditation?
What's ironic in that is that the Portuguese monks once traveled to Japan to learn Zen meditation. It's non-denominational, so the monks striving to enhance their spiritual practice could use it. Apparently, for some of the Portuguese Catholics Jesus is only the start of a long road towards salvation, a key to unlock the upgrade path, which is what the various Protestants don't believe at all.
it means the meditation is working! this studie confirms it is not just a fad and actually does what it is supposed to do.
On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
...And the company loves misery.
Get back to work, you!
"Well, good luck finding a judge that doesn't run a bestiality site."
Unfortunately for taylorists, the human body and mind are not six nines pieces of machinery . try putting someone through a stressfull job with no coping skills. We lose countless doctors and cops to suicide ... Because of job stress. There has to be a balance.
Desire (and attachment) is the root of all suffering.
The gospel according to Jordan B Peterson — 21 April 2018
Serenity doesn't pay the bills. Meanwhile, lugging a 100-lb sack of wet salt back and forth across the Auschwitz quadrangle keeps you out of the furnace for another day.
If your child required you to lug a 100-lb sack of wet salt for miles and miles in order to be spared from a cruel disease, the situation would be (A) in no wise different, (B) meaningful, rather than cruel and pointless.
You are now masturbating manually.
Having the planets revolve around the earth is wrong.
Noting the planets orbit the sun as a circle instead of an ellipse is wrong.
Noting the planets orbit in ellipses instead of noticing that due to the gravity of the other planets, they aren't ellipses either is wrong.
The three statements above are wrong on so many levels. If you call them equivalent, you are ignorant.
I don't think it's wasted on us. :)
I can only hope he's gone and never to return here. The last thing this place needs is more spam posts.
How can "mindfulness" be the same as meditation? The whole point of meditation is mindLESSness. Well, I guess is makes sense that mindfulness is the same thing as mindlessness, or at least idiocy, like other fads.
Typical fallacy of Buddhism. Through the baby out with the bath water.
We all have basic needs -- the desire is NOT the problem.
i.e.
* Wanting to be a better person is a very noble goal.
* Wanting food and drink to quench your hunger is fine.
The suffering starts when your expectation is out of alignment with reality.
i.e.
* Defeatist / Pessimistic attitude
* I don't have "enough" food.
All these studies always claim to have the newest and best banks of knowledge- that they're actively contributing to the field of study they're involved in when a lot of them are just trigger studies- to spark disagreement in a group of people and propose alternate opinions with 'evidence' to back up ideas.
A few studies doesn't mean something is one way or the other. You can't always read all these studies and believe them.
Besides, even if they're claim is 'correct' (which it's not, because the way mediation works is subjective and therefore not constrained by objective facts like gravity), I can easily say that short, daily mediation helps me refocus my ideas and calm my thoughts.
I was running around trying to do a million things yesterday, and I reminded myself I needed 5 minutes to just breathe and close my eyes- and it helped me double my efforts afterwards. I'm very much a Type A personality, and perhaps it demotivates Type B personalities, but it certainly doesn't demotivate me.
Bunch of new age study garbage.
Correlation is a flighty bird that sings to the tune of biased dispositions.
Like that one person who thinks they know everything because they 'read a study' lol
OK. Have fun playing in the mental little leagues with your lack of awareness.
In other words, you are a religious nut whose mind is closed to all other approaches. If you could burn the heretics you would, using your TM the whole time.
Thanks for the propaganda.
Having the planets revolve around the earth is wrong. Noting the planets orbit the sun as a circle instead of an ellipse is wrong. Noting the planets orbit in ellipses instead of noticing that due to the gravity of the other planets, they aren't ellipses either is wrong. The three statements above are wrong on so many levels. If you call them equivalent, you are ignorant.
Who are you arguing with AC? All of the above are examples of the nature of observational science. You observe, and you learn. You fit the math to the facts.
The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
Concentration -meditation- Dedication- CMD routes help progress index.
One can apply this technique from being an inventor to Cosmology
Searching minds-Guiding spirit is the norm