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FDA Chief Considers Ban of All Flavored E-Cigarettes (wsj.com)

Calling a surge in teen use of e-cigarettes an epidemic, the head of the Food and Drug Administration says he is considering pulling all flavored e-cigarettes from the U.S. market. From a report: After years of declining U.S. smoking rates, sales of e-cigarettes have jumped in the past year, fueled in part by online startups selling vaporizers and nicotine-laced liquids. The most popular brand, Juul, sells refills with mango, cucumber and creme flavors. Each $4 pod contains as much nicotine as a pack of cigarettes. "The number of teenagers we believe are now using these products... has reached an epidemic proportion," said FDA Commissioner Scott Gottlieb, who is expected to announce new measures Wednesday to curb underage use. Dr. Gottlieb said he believes that certain flavors make the products appealing to teens. "The availability of e-cigarettes cannot come at the expense of addicting a new generation of youth onto nicotine, and it won't," he said in an interview. Alternative source, and official announcement.

341 comments

  1. Ban cigs by datavirtue · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Ban cigarettes while your at it dipshit.

    --
    I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    1. Re: Ban cigs by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      You're...shut up

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    2. Re:Ban cigs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The United States is a non-smoking nation. No smoking, no drinking, no drugs, no women, unless, of course, you're married. No guns, no foul language, no red meat."

    3. Re:Ban cigs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If you want to revive the 1930s gangster era resulting from prohibition, but 10 times worse because nicotine is 10x more addictive, go ahead.

    4. Re:Ban cigs by registrations_suck · · Score: 0

      "That which is not mandatory must be banned!!!!!!"

      The rallying cry of fascists throughout the universe.

    5. Re:Ban cigs by DarkRookie · · Score: 1

      No guns?! A joke right.
      Fuck I am surprise they do not hand you one when you are born and another at 18.

      --
      The millennial that doesn't like most of the stuff designed for millennials.
    6. Re:Ban cigs by JackieBrown · · Score: 0

      You missed the reference

    7. Re: Ban cigs by datavirtue · · Score: 1

      Perhaps I should have specified banning adulteration of tobacco to make it more addictive.

      --
      I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
    8. Re:Ban cigs by DarkRookie · · Score: 0

      Oh.
      Escape from L.A.
      Gross

      --
      The millennial that doesn't like most of the stuff designed for millennials.
    9. Re:Ban cigs by gnick · · Score: 1

      ...10 times worse because nicotine is 10x more addictive...

      And sugar is more addictive than cocaine. I don't believe it. I dropped cigarettes for about 15 years while I was in a relationship with a non-smoker and the cravings were mostly relieved by "smoking" pen caps. When I dropped alcohol, I went into fucking seizures. The cravings were unbearable. Everyone's different, but that's my experience.

      That's not the only reason that I don't think a smoking ban would create 10x Prohibition-level violence. Black market, sure; violence, probably; but not like the 20s.

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    10. Re:Ban cigs by BlueStrat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Ban cigarettes while your at it dipshit.

      That's not going to happen.

      As a matter of fact, all this hand-wringing about teens vaping is just smoke to cover the fact that the government wants to find an excuse to ban e-cigs and vaping because it's seriously cutting into tobacco sales and especially hurting the creation of new teen smokers, not to mention all the federal and State tobacco & cigarette taxes the government is losing out on, and stands to see even more losses if teens take up vaping instead of smoking tobacco.

      The government would much rather see Dick and Jane. See Dick and Jane with a 3-pack-a-day habit. See Dick and Jane pay thousands in tobacco taxes every year. Watch Dick and Jane get lung cancer and spend many tens of thousands on medical treatment and hospice costs. See the Government and healthcare providers run away with pockets bulging with cash. Run, merchants of death, run!

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    11. Re: Ban cigs by gnick · · Score: 1

      "specified"? "Ban cigarettes" and "ban adulteration of tobacco" are very different things. I'm satisfied as long as I have an effective way to get the pot off my breath, and any smoldering tobacco will do that just fine.

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    12. Re:Ban cigs by JackieBrown · · Score: 1

      Yep. And honestly, if you are a teen vaping to look cool, you are in a much better situation than smoking cigarettes simply do to the fact that you can use a 0 level nicotine juice and skip the addicting factor all together.

      It's much easier to be a "social vaper" than a "social smoker."

    13. Re:Ban cigs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Anecdotally, I've never been able to quit sugar. I've been obese since I was a teen, primarily do to extreme difficulty not eating high sugar foods. I also had a pretty severe cocaine habit for a while, snorting it and IVing it, for a couple years, escalating from casual use for years before that. One day, after shooting an ounce in weekend, just decided well, this is almost certainly going to kill me sooner rather than later, and just stopped. Cravings were gone in 24h. 12 years without it now. I wish i could quit sugar as easily as I quit coke, since that's going to cause plenty of problems itself, probably soon now, since I'm 35 in both years and BMI now.

    14. Re:Ban cigs by gnick · · Score: 3, Funny

      ...you can use a 0 level nicotine juice and skip the addicting factor all together.

      My vape cartridge is 0 nicotine. Plenty of THC though. I wish I could have brought that with me to high school.

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    15. Re:Ban cigs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wait, is vaping actually considered cool these days? I recall back in college that it was mostly the bastion of annoying dickheads who wanted to look cool like smokers in the movies but couldn't handle actual smoke. Plus they tended to do it indoors and stink up non-smoking areas with their cotton candy clouds.

    16. Re: Ban cigs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I mean... you could always try not smoking pot, that would certainly keep it off your breath.

    17. Re:Ban cigs by stealth_finger · · Score: 1

      Ban cigarettes while your at it dipshit.

      Freedom, fuck yeah. Also, you're the dipshit it seems.

      --
      Wanna buy a shirt?
      https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
    18. Re: Ban cigs by gnick · · Score: 2

      you could always try not smoking pot

      Well that's one idea that I hadn't considered. Switching to vaping or edibles would do a fine job of keeping the pot off my breath, but the gods designed weed to be smoked and I don't like to upset them.

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    19. Re:Ban cigs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Plus they tended to do it indoors and stink up non-smoking areas with their cotton candy clouds.

      If they'd make e-cig vapor smell like curry they'd be a major hit in Silicon Valley.

      Because talk about stinking up an area, the company break/lunch room and that entire floor smells like old curry. Cotton candy would be a huge improvement.

    20. Re:Ban cigs by alvinrod · · Score: 1

      See Dick and Jane with a 3-pack-a-day habit. See Dick and Jane pay thousands in tobacco taxes every year. Watch Dick and Jane get lung cancer and spend many tens of thousands on medical treatment and hospice costs. See the Government and healthcare providers run away with pockets bulging with cash. Run, merchants of death, run!

      My library must not have stocked this particular book. Do you know which one this was featured in?

    21. Re: Ban cigs by pacija · · Score: 1

      Ban cigarettes while your at it dipshit.

      Or, even better, declare war on cigarettes.
      It did go well with drugs, didn't it?
      Thinking of it, perhaps it would be reasonable to re-classify tobacco to be in same class as heroin. That way you get war on tobacco withoud having to declare another war.
      I'm being sarcastic.

    22. Re:Ban cigs by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      Well they are banning flavored e-cigarettes not all e-cigarettes. As a non-smoker while I would love to see all smoking stopping. There is still too much of an economy behind tobacco to ban it. It is easier to ban small markets that are harmful then large ones which may be more harmful.
      Besides, they are too many smokers who would rebel.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    23. Re:Ban cigs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're in a better situation, but I'd hardly call ingesting a carcinogen a much better situation.

    24. Re:Ban cigs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But you can't brew tobacco in your garage still like you can booze. Oh it would be difficult to totally eliminate it, but a few crop-dusters hitting the fields in the southeast with round-up could greatly impact the cigarette supply for the world.

    25. Re:Ban cigs by arth1 · · Score: 1

      I wish i could quit sugar as easily as I quit coke, since that's going to cause plenty of problems itself, probably soon now, since I'm 35 in both years and BMI now.

      Oh, don't worry. That problem will sort itself out, and you'll die a few years from now, with high blood pressure, high cholesterol and diabetes, popping pills and more pills against the pills, feeling miserable.
      The problem isn't you being addicted to sugar, but you being too weak willed to burn the sugars that you eat. Add a thousand calories or two worth of exercise a day. Work with your body, and stop blaming it for you being lazy.

    26. Re:Ban cigs by Moof123 · · Score: 1

      Regulate Nicotine as the addictive non-medicinal drug it is. If it was introduced today it would be lumped in with cocaine, heroin, and marijuana.

    27. Re:Ban cigs by AlwinBarni · · Score: 1

      Exactly, so I will keep being poisoned by my neighbors smoking normal cigarettes because vaping is too unhealthy?
      I personally welcomed e-cigarettes as a way for people addicted to smoking, who cannot or do not want to give up their habit not affecting bystanders.

    28. Re:Ban cigs by gnick · · Score: 1

      Add a thousand calories or two worth of exercise a day.

      Fuck that. 2000 calories of exercise/day? That's 5 fucking hours of straight running. Not quite a marathon, but well over half. I'd rather just give up food.

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    29. Re:Ban cigs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Every 20th puff of an e-cig smells of skunk. Eventually they'll associate nicotine with nastiness. solved

    30. Re:Ban cigs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There used to be 0 level nicotine cigarettes too bought in pharmacies but the dickwads in my country banned them. I tried them 10-15 years ago and they're a bit like zero alcohol beer : pointless. But they removed an option from me. I would like to "denicotize" if I were to stop smoking, but quitting both the nicotin and the smoke is too much for me. Yeah smoke numbs your throat and it's painfully sensitive for a while when you're not smoking.

      e-cig keeps you on nicotin and vapor instead of smoke so there's no way I'd be able to quit that. I'll have to switch to it again but I'll be blowing ~60 EUR in one go and then have to buy consumables over and over again and chain myself to USB power supplies.

    31. Re:Ban cigs by BlueStrat · · Score: 1

      My library must not have stocked this particular book. Do you know which one this was featured in?

      I believe it was from a restricted-release series called "Dick And Jane Live Under A Social Democratic Government".

      The series features titles such as "Dick And Jane Learn To Virtue-Signal:, "Dick And Jane Help Shut Down A Speaking Event By Using Violent Riots", and that fan-favorite, "Dick And Jane And Their Friends Beat An Old Man Wearing A Trump Hat".

      Strat

      --
      Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
    32. Re:Ban cigs by CohibaVancouver · · Score: 1

      I wish i could quit sugar as easily as I quit coke, since that's going to cause plenty of problems itself

      I quit carbs mostly cold turkey last Spring - At that time I was 6'2 and 260 pounds. I'm down about 35 pounds since then. Another 35 pounds to go.

      My addiction was pretty powerful, and the first month was hell on earth, but after that things are mostly OK. I still crave the odd doughnut or bag of Doritos, but it's manageable.

      You can do it, provided you can survive that first month.

    33. Re:Ban cigs by arth1 · · Score: 1

      Fuck that. 2000 calories of exercise/day? That's 5 fucking hours of straight running. Not quite a marathon, but well over half. I'd rather just give up food.

      No, it isn't. He has a BMI of bloody 35, which means he's carrying a lot of weight, and is almost certainly seriously out of shape. Two hours of medium speed walking will likely be 2000 calories with that BMI. Say four half-hour walks, morning, lunch, dinner and before going to bed.

    34. Re:Ban cigs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah the suggestion is nuts. That works better when you eat somewhat normally and your excess calories (sugar or better : carbs like bread and rice) are needed for your physical activity (e.g. bicycle). This is a complete turn around.

      [Speaking of bicycle there's a big impact on my health if the seat is one inch too high or too low! or tires not inflated]

      The problem of sugar is it's not only in the obvious stuff like soda, dessert, lolly pops, etc.
      the most amazing comment or blog post I read about this subject (and carbs in general) was a guy relating how he started every of his days (as a grown adult) with a big, man-sized bowl of cereals and a half-liter or more of orange juice. both are thought as "healthy" and at the bottom of the food pyramid. The truth is this is an embarrassing tower of carbs and moreover a big ass shitload of sugar. Like how much, a full cup of sugar? more?
      The blog post was about "why some people like the Japanese eat a carb heavy diet and are thin" and the answer was a small bowl of rice is not a mountain sized serving of breakfast cereals.
      [btw I hate how sliced bread contains sugar. I can feel it. I eat it when it's too late or I'm too lazy to go buy real bread]

      If there's one thing I can tell you, it's that it's reasonably easy to replace some food with another food. Or better version of same food when you can easily afford it (like replacing bread with better bread). Lots of food you can stuff yourself with that have no or little sugar. cheese, peanut butter, soup, pizza or anything you may imagine.
      My only goals in life are eating, excreting, smoking and drinking.
      "Starve" yourself for a couple days then stuff yourself with different foods is something I can suggest. I don't see this as giving up foods if I'm salivating for the new ones.

    35. Re:Ban cigs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even if vaping is safer on a per puff basis that is not a fair comparison. The vapers I know practically don't breathe air. That fucking thing is glued to their hip. They take it everywhere and puff on it non-fucking-stop. The flavors and such just make this worse.

      I am not in favor of a ban but to think that these vapers are not also destroying their health is crazy. Morons like you not only perpetuate the myth that vaping is safe, you also make it a "counter culture" passtime. Now these idiots think they are screwing over the man with every puff. Great. Now my tax dollars have to go to saving these assholes when they are on their death bed.

    36. Re:Ban cigs by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Ban cigarettes while your at it dipshit.

      And piss off half of Virginia, North Carolina and South Carolina when you end their livelihoods? I don't think that's a political possibility.

      Tabaco is still BIG money politically, even in it's much diminished state of late.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    37. Re:Ban cigs by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 2

      You're in a better situation, but I'd hardly call ingesting a carcinogen a much better situation.

      Nicotine is not a carcinogen.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    38. Re:Ban cigs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ban cigarettes while your at it dipshit.

      That's not going to happen.

      As a matter of fact, all this hand-wringing about teens vaping is just smoke to cover the fact that the government wants to find an excuse to ban e-cigs and vaping because it's seriously cutting into tobacco sales and especially hurting the creation of new teen smokers, not to mention all the federal and State tobacco & cigarette taxes the government is losing out on, and stands to see even more losses if teens take up vaping instead of smoking tobacco.

      I have seen teens sucking on those vape pens like pacifiers. Another case of someone putting toxic stuff in their lungs, and mine. Ban all of them. Vape pens, cigarettes, cigars, tobacco, etc. You may not care about lung cancer, but I do.

    39. Re:Ban cigs by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 2

      Regulate Nicotine as the addictive non-medicinal drug it is. If it was introduced today it would be lumped in with cocaine, heroin, and marijuana.

      Says the ignorant authoritarian fascist. Are you planning to regulate tobacco by spraying the fields with paraquat? You going after eggplants, potatoes, tomatoes, and the other plants that also contain nicotine? You planning to ban it and neonicotinoids from being used as insecticide (one of the safest in use, BTW)?

      As far as your "non-medicinal" claim, nicotine has been shown in many studies, such as this one, that it is useful treatment for schizophrenics.

      But, hey, screw those guys, right, Right? Better you get your bullshit authoritarian rules to control everyone's lives. A few sick people are just collateral. Right? RIGHT?

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    40. Re:Ban cigs by swillden · · Score: 1

      Watch Dick and Jane get lung cancer and spend many tens of thousands on medical treatment and hospice costs.

      End of life care for smokers costs a small fraction of what it does for non-smokers, because it's they die much faster. Smoking accelerates death, but actually reduces health care costs / revenues.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    41. Re:Ban cigs by Z00L00K · · Score: 1

      Put all nicotine stuff as prescribed drugs.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    42. Re:Ban cigs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And why should I pay for you on your death bed dying of whatever poor choices YOU made in life? Fuck you, asshole, that's how our society works. If you don't like it go somewhere (anywhere, please) else.

    43. Re:Ban cigs by Kielistic · · Score: 1

      Just because you aren't interested does not mean it should be banned.

    44. Re:Ban cigs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LOL. That might be true if it were still the 1930s. It's 2018 and the number of anachronistic rubes who still smoke is vanishingly tiny. They can go ahead and try to form up their 1930s styled gangs. They won't get far going against 2018 law.

    45. Re:Ban cigs by gweihir · · Score: 1

      As this guy is very likely in the pocket of Big Tobacco, that would be counter-productive. Nicotine is not actually the problem with smoking, all the other crap is. The only known adverse effects (and they are pretty bad, though) are on children and adolescents, as Nicotine interferes with brain development. Bit for adults, this stuff is pretty benign if used responsibly.

      So why on earth would anybody wish to crack down on its use in adults? There are only two possible explanations: Somebody else want to sell something (Big Tobacco) or this is an utterly despicable authoritarian that wants to forbid people things that they like.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    46. Re: Ban cigs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Smoke your filthy cigarette around me and I'll smash your face in, wimp.

    47. Re:Ban cigs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have you tried getting treatment for your alcoholism?

    48. Re:Ban cigs by gnick · · Score: 1

      My last drink was a little over 3 years ago. Treatment didn't get me anywhere; liver failure didn't stop me; but the court giving my ex permission to keep my kids away from me sure did.

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    49. Re:Ban cigs by Dragonslicer · · Score: 1

      You're in a better situation, but I'd hardly call ingesting a carcinogen a much better situation.

      Nicotine is not a carcinogen.

      No, but the vapor is. Not nearly as bad as cigarette smoke, of course, but it does increase your risk a little.

    50. Re:Ban cigs by Dragonslicer · · Score: 1

      If you want to revive the 1930s gangster era resulting from prohibition, but 10 times worse because nicotine is 10x more addictive, go ahead.

      Most organized crime already existed before Prohibition. They got a little extra revenue from alcohol sales, but it's misleading to say that organized crime was a result of Prohibition.

    51. Re: Ban cigs by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

      Vaping mostly has the problem of taking forever. I have to take four huge rips from a vape pen (each of which takes about a minute -- 30 seconds hitting, 30 holding) to equal one good bong rip. It does have many advantages though.

        I don't have to go outside. Merely blowing out the window (with a straw if convenient) when I exhale is enough to keep any residual off me and my surroundings. Blowing it off inside is not good -- while it may not smell much, it's still oil and it will still tend to coat the surfaces it lands on and make them sticky.

        It's small enough to carry around wherever.

        I never have the problem that it's too windy to use a lighter.

        It doesn't make me smell like weed, even if I am less than diligent about not standing in my own cloud.

        It's actually cost-efficient. For every cartridge I buy, I can generally refill from syringes of pure oil twice before it clogs up to the point of not functioning and has to be replaced. If I didn't do this, it would cost about the same as smoking normal dispensary OG, but since I do, it works out about 20-25% cheaper.

      The Rove brand cartridges are an exception to all this as they're built differently (and require thinner oil). They don't tolerate refilling because they need a bit of solvent (propylene glycol I believe) to keep them flowing. This negates any cost benefit, but it also eliminates the problem of having to take four hits instead of one because they both deliver more and have much better airflow.

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    52. Re:Ban cigs by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

      I have no problem with people wanting to treat it legally the same as smoking. While it's true that the sphere of influence of a vape cloud is much less than that of smoke, it's still not zero, so enough people doing it in one place will be as bad as the smoke of fewer people.

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    53. Re:Ban cigs by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

      I had a girlfriend that was trying to quit, and wanted to separate the nicotine from the habit of smoking. She tried Quest nicotine-free cigarettes, and was bitterly disappointed that she had bought TWO packs of them, as she couldn't even get through the first one. I tried one myself and it was like smoking pencil shavings. You are no worse off for not having these in your area.

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    54. Re:Ban cigs by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

      The USB charging thing isn't really a problem. A fifteen minute charge can be enough to last multiple days.

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    55. Re:Ban cigs by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

      Another medicinal use is the temporary relief of headaches. I don't normally consume nicotine in any form beyond a one-cigar-a-year level, but if I find myself getting a sinus headache and it's coming on too fast for normal medication to catch it (because the trick is to keep it from getting entrenched, rather than trying to evict it once it takes up residence), a quarter of a cigarette or even less is the difference between relief and a minimum of one unpleasant hour. This is such a tiny amount of smoking that there would be very little health benefit to using a vape, and all I need in the way of equipment is one cigarette and a lighter.

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    56. Re: Ban cigs by ravenshrike · · Score: 1

      The impetus for violence was not there in traditional rackets since they didn't involve a consumable and relatively non-perishable product.

    57. Re:Ban cigs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good luck; if you have any form of social support, lean on them, and if not, try hard to get some. Don't give in to despair, don't let yourself think it's too late or not worth it. I wish you the best, sincerely.

    58. Re:Ban cigs by jpaine619 · · Score: 1

      Bad idea to call people dipshits, while misspelling words... Kinda get into a whole "pot..kettle..black" deal..

      If CA bans cigarettes we'll just have a massive black market for them the very next day.. Guess we could start locking people up for that too...

    59. Re:Ban cigs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well they are banning flavored e-cigarettes not all e-cigarettes. As a non-smoker while I would love to see all smoking stopping. There is still too much of an economy behind tobacco to ban it. It is easier to ban small markets that are harmful then large ones which may be more harmful.
      Besides, they are too many smokers who would rebel.

      And you don't think the vaping community will rebel?

    60. Re:Ban cigs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Regulate Nicotine as the addictive non-medicinal drug it is. If it was introduced today it would be lumped in with cocaine, heroin, and marijuana.

      If you do that, then you'd better regulate caffeine too.
      The fact that you lump marijuana in with cocaine and heroin shows that your a tee-totaling prohibitionist puritan jerk.

    61. Re:Ban cigs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't ban anything for current customers.

      Ban future sales to new customers. For instance anyone born in 2001 will never be able to buy tobacco products.

    62. Re:Ban cigs by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      End of life care for smokers costs a small fraction of what it does for non-smokers, because it's they die much faster.

      About 40% of lung transplants are performed for end-stage emphysema in former smokers. What's that cost? Over 10% of them resume smoking after the transplant, too.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    63. Re:Ban cigs by rojash · · Score: 1

      NUMBNUTS, obviously you dunno what w/d symptoms are.

    64. Re:Ban cigs by WeezulDK · · Score: 1

      If you're going to lower the ban hammer, how about you hippies ban marijuana cigarettes too. Anyone who disagrees with this statement is a bigoted, hypocritical racist heterophobic cisphobic blah blah blah.... /liberal mode off

    65. Re:Ban cigs by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

      You're in a better situation, but I'd hardly call ingesting a carcinogen a much better situation.

      Nicotine is not a carcinogen.

      No, but the vapor is. Not nearly as bad as cigarette smoke, of course, but it does increase your risk a little.

      There is no evidence of that. Some chemicals considered carcinogens have been detected in vapor in some circumstances, depending on the vape used and the device and settings. However, they were only detected in minute trace amounts, too small to actually increase the risk of cancer. No medical professional will tell you it's better to inhale anything into your lungs other than clean, fresh air, of course. But there is nothing yet to indicate that vape is any more dangerous that some very common environmental pollutants.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    66. Re:Ban cigs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      EFFECTS OF CHRONIC OR REPEATED EXPOSURE: Nicotine is a teratogen (capable of causing birth defects). Other developmental toxicity or reproductive toxicity risks are unknown. The information about nicotine as a carcinogen is inconclusive.

      - https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/ershdb/emergencyresponsecard_29750028.html

    67. Re:Ban cigs by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

      EFFECTS OF CHRONIC OR REPEATED EXPOSURE: Nicotine is a teratogen (capable of causing birth defects). Other developmental toxicity or reproductive toxicity risks are unknown. The information about nicotine as a carcinogen is inconclusive.

      - https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/ersh...

      In other words, nicotine is not a carcinogen. Idiot.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
  2. Sounds good to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    No one wants to walk though your cloud of second-hand blueberry fumes!

    1. Re:Sounds good to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's good for the goose is good for the gander

    2. Re:Sounds good to me by Oswald+McWeany · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No one wants to walk though your cloud of second-hand blueberry fumes!

      No they don't, but I don't want to listen to someone's rap music playing out a car window, or smell someone with BO, or taste ketchup that was put on my burger.

      Not wanting to experience something that other people do want to experience is not reason for it to be illegal. Banning flavoured vapes because some teens are getting it illegal is not right in my opinion. Target people illegally selling it, or giving it to kids if you want. Tax the stuff if you want.

      I don't like smoke or vaping- but I'm not for making it illegal. If they do it in the privacy of their own properties and don't expose others- and are well-informed of the consequences, then people should be allowed to smoke or vape if they want. I don't approve of banning things just because they're unpopular with the masses.

      One day, something I like doing which is unpopular with the masses might be next on the chopping block. Let people have their vices if it isn't hurting anyone else. And yeah... do things to keep it out the hands of underage teens who have not yet reached adult age.

      --
      "That's the way to do it" - Punch
    3. Re:Sounds good to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      Not wanting to experience something that other people do want to experience is not reason for it to be illegal.

      You're right. The reason we're banning it is that an extremely addictive substance is being designed to taste sweet, and appeals to kids.

        I don't approve of banning things just because they're unpopular with the masses.

      Nor do I. But I do approve of banning things that are addictive, designed specifically to appeal to kids, and are incredibly difficult to actually prevent kids from getting.

      Just smoke your regular vape/cigarettes that taste terrible to kids inititially. The reason they ban the damn things is BECAUSE teen smoking rates are now skyrocketing.

    4. Re:Sounds good to me by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Not wanting to experience something that other people do want to experience is not reason for it to be illegal.

      There's ample reason to ban it in public, though. And also for all ingredients in anything you put into your body to be listed on the packaging. That would mean a major change for the alcohol market, but so what?

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re: Sounds good to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Adults eat dessert, it's not as though making flavors that don't taste horrible is marketing to children. Sugar is arguably worse for you than vaping, and I don't see people trying to ban cheesecake.

      using your logic The Cheesecake Factory should be legal because of all the flavors they had into something that's already unhealthy.

      and it doesn't seem to me the children of their primary demographic at those prices.

    6. Re:Sounds good to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That garbage isn't good for either one.

    7. Re: Sounds good to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      FYI, The Cheesecake Factory doesn't lace their cakes with heroin or other addictive substances in an effort to lock in repeat customers. Your use of logic makes me think that there might be more substances we need to ban.

    8. Re:Sounds good to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The reason we're banning it is that an extremely addictive substance is being designed to taste sweet, and appeals to kid

      That's why we've banned schnapps, right?

      No, we're floating banning it to firk more taxes out of producers and consumers.

    9. Re:Sounds good to me by JackieBrown · · Score: 1

      Ban fast food as well, correct? I know more teens addicted to McDonald's than vaping.

      Alcohol too right? I know more adults that drink alcohol than vape. I know more people that have lost a loved one due to a drunk driving incident than of lung cancer.

      Honestly, banning something for adults because teens are illegally using a substance is insane.

    10. Re: Sounds good to me by gnick · · Score: 2

      The Cheesecake Factory doesn't lace their cakes with heroin or other addictive substances...

      I heard they were lacing their cheesecake with sugar.

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    11. Re: Sounds good to me by fafalone · · Score: 1

      Given the obesity and diabetes rates, I strongly dispute the notion sugar is not addictive. It falls under psychologically addictive; it's reinforcing, since it produces feelings of pleasure, lighting up the same brain centers and traditional drugs of addiction. There's even some physical addiction issues; it produces a tolerance effect where people use more and more, though certainly not to the extent of opiates or cocaine. To nicotine, sure. Nicotine is also primarily psychologically addictive though. A quick search indicates my position is widely shared by experts.

    12. Re:Sounds good to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No one wants to walk though your cloud of second-hand blueberry fumes!

      No one wants to look at your ugly mug either but there we go.

    13. Re:Sounds good to me by stealth_finger · · Score: 2

      Nor do I. But I do approve of banning things that are addictive, designed specifically to appeal to kids, and are incredibly difficult to actually prevent kids from getting.

      Just smoke your regular vape/cigarettes that taste terrible to kids inititially. The reason they ban the damn things is BECAUSE teen smoking rates are now skyrocketing.

      Vaping and smoking aren't the same things. Alcohol also appeals to kids, especially alcopops, should that be made illegal too, especially considering how harmful alcohol is to society on the whole not just the individual. Something tells me that might not work so well so better to have something sensible like an age limit. Maybe you could do that with vaping products and anyone selling to an underage would get the same as selling alcohol or cigarettes to underage customers do. Also kids, really like sweets that are loaded up with sugar and under no ones definition are 'good' for you, what do you propose is done about that? And if you say that's not a drug you've obviously never seen a little kid on a sugar rush after a bag of haribo.

      --
      Wanna buy a shirt?
      https://www.redbubble.com/people/stealthfinger/shop?asc=u
    14. Re:Sounds good to me by Anubis+IV · · Score: 3, Informative

      I was sitting out on a patio at a restaurant last week, with a college-aged guy doing some form of smoking at the table next to us. We had maple-bacon smoke wafting over us for the better part of 30 minutes as he blew big, billowing plumes for his own amusement.

      Maple-bacon scented patios may sound like some people's idea of a pleasant evening, but as someone with asthma, it's not unusual for me to feel my airways closing up when I'm exposed to strong scents, which I've had happen before with e-cigs and vaporizers. Thankfully, nothing happened this time, so it was little more than a random thing that happened that evening, but I don't want to see a return to the way things were a few decades ago. People always talk about the big risks when it comes to this stuff—addiction, cancer, death—but we shouldn't forget that there's a significant decrease in the quality of life for others when being able to breathe easily is something they need to concern themselves with.

    15. Re: Sounds good to me by Comboman · · Score: 1

      Sugar has been part of the human diet for millions of years. High obesity and diabetes rates started in the late 20th century. Do you believe sugar has only recently become addictive?

      --
      Support Right To Repair Legislation.
    16. Re:Sounds good to me by CanHasDIY · · Score: 0

      Not wanting to experience something that other people do want to experience is not reason for it to be illegal.

      There's ample reason to ban it in public, though.

      No, it's a terrible reason - fundamentalist Christians "don't want to experience" homosexuals holding hands on a public sidewalk, but I doubt you'd say that's an "ample reason" to ban public hand-holding.

      The great thing about America is that if you are free to not stand next to someone who smokes, if you don't like smoke; that does not mean you have a right to stand next to smokers just so you can bitch about the freedoms they enjoy that you disagree with.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    17. Re: Sounds good to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The real point is that Mr FDA Chief is your better and if you don't keep your vices in check. You're holy Master will remove them from you since you are his powerless little slaves and he deems your brain not as smart as his.

      Bow before this FDA chief and restrain yourself otherwise he's warning you that he take away something you like.

      Best obey now and hope your master doesn't find another thing of yours he doesn't like. Mind you everything he does to you has no bearing or standing in this conversation. Run along now.....

    18. Re: Sounds good to me by apoc.famine · · Score: 1

      No. It's recently become very affordable, readily available, and inserted into all sorts of food products where it never exited before. (Or if it did, it was naturally occurring and in low amounts.)

      Likewise, if companies started jamming cocaine into juices, milk, breads, peanut butter, canned and dried fruit, sauces and dressings, deli meats and cereal, a ton more people would be addicted to cocaine. It doesn't mean it wasn't addictive before. It just means that it's omnipresent now, and hard to avoid without a lot of label checking and a deep understanding of all the names it hides behind.

      For sugar, this apparently includes:

      Agave nectar
      Barbados sugar
      Barley malt
      Barley malt syrup
      Beet sugar
      Brown sugar
      Buttered syrup
      Cane juice
      Cane juice crystals
      Cane sugar
      Caramel
      Carob syrup
      Castor sugar
      Coconut palm sugar
      Coconut sugar
      Confectioner's sugar
      Corn sweetener
      Corn syrup
      Corn syrup solids
      Date sugar
      Dehydrated cane juice
      Demerara sugar
      Dextrin
      Dextrose
      Evaporated cane juice
      Free-flowing brown sugars
      Fructose
      Fruit juice
      Fruit juice concentrate
      Glucose
      Glucose solids
      Golden sugar
      Golden syrup
      Grape sugar
      HFCS (High-Fructose Corn Syrup)
      Honey
      Icing sugar
      Invert sugar
      Malt syrup
      Maltodextrin
      Maltol
      Maltose
      Mannose
      Maple syrup
      Molasses
      Muscovado
      Palm sugar
      Panocha
      Powdered sugar
      Raw sugar
      Refiner's syrup
      Rice syrup
      Saccharose
      Sorghum Syrup
      Sucrose
      Sugar (granulated)
      Sweet Sorghum
      Syrup
      Treacle
      Turbinado sugar
      Yellow sugar

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    19. Re: Sounds good to me by fafalone · · Score: 1

      Morphine has been used by humans for thousands of years (the primary active alkaloid in the poppy plants sap, only its isolation has changed), only in the last 150 years have people overdosed on it. It's almost like access to limitless quantities changes things, and small amounts are a lot less harmful and cause a lot less of the effects that lead to addiction. Has morphine only recently become deadly and more addictive too, or are you looking at this the wrong way?

    20. Re:Sounds good to me by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      The great thing about America is that if you are free to not stand next to someone who smokes, if you don't like smoke

      That's a nice idea, but it's horse shit. Smokers will walk up to you while smoking, forcing you to run away if you don't want to breathe their pollutants. That's assault by any reasonable measurement.

      that does not mean you have a right to stand next to smokers just so you can bitch about the freedoms they enjoy that you disagree with.

      It's illegal in all the places I go in California to smoke within 20 or 30 feet (depending on where you are) of a door or operable window belonging to a restaurant, health clinic, or a lot of other places, but they do it anyway. Then their smoke comes inside of buildings I'm in and I have to breathe it, because of their lack of responsibility or respect for others. Stop trying to make smokers out to be the victims here, they are the abusers.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    21. Re: Sounds good to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Especially shocking is e.g. Ketchup and what is called "Barbecue Sauce" which has more sugar than ketchup.
      You're pouring syrup on your ribs. BBQ sauce can replace the Jam in 'Peanut Butter & Jam'.

      How about mayonnaise, mustard (isn't made with sugar in my country) and other things.
      If you want cheap tomato sauce, make it from a can of peeled tomato and pour it into pasta - congrats you're half way to fine Italian cuisine.
      There is Samurai sauce (can be made by mixing mayonnaise and harissa). Some premade plastic bottles in my country have sugar, some don't but even if there is, there's much less than in other plastic bottle sauces.

    22. Re:Sounds good to me by lexman098 · · Score: 2

      There's ample reason to ban it in public, though.

      Name one.

    23. Re:Sounds good to me by sjames · · Score: 4, Informative

      There's ample reason to ban public cologne and perfume as well, but it hasn't happened. At least the vapers stop emitting the vape when they go inside.

    24. Re:Sounds good to me by sjames · · Score: 1

      Imagine if, e-cigs being unavailable, he was sneaking cigarettes instead.

    25. Re:Sounds good to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you are one of those f**king selfish smokers, aren't you? I would never walk up to smokers or stand next to them. It is rather they walking while smoking from opposite direction or they passing while smoking. It is really awful experience for those who don't like it. And it affects my health! You f**king moron.

    26. Re:Sounds good to me by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

      Then he would have been tossed out, and probably ticketed.

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    27. Re:Sounds good to me by sjames · · Score: 1

      Or, more likely, not. Depending on exactly how much the restaurant cared.

    28. Re:Sounds good to me by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

      In California, they care, because otherwise they have to pay the fines.

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    29. Re:Sounds good to me by sjames · · Score: 1

      In Georgia, some care very much. Some "don't notice" if the customer is sneaky, and some just don't give a crap.

    30. Re:Sounds good to me by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      There's ample reason to ban public cologne and perfume as well, but it hasn't happened.

      No, but it bloody well should. At minimum we should adopt the precautionary principle on what is allowed in perfumes, as the EU does. I'm sick and tired (but mostly sick) of catching a big breath of some moron's dryer sheets, or conditioner, or hell just their fucking shampoo. Apparently a lot of people don't know how to rinse their hair, I can still smell the soap as well as the perfume. Bunch of goddamn savages.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  3. A waste of time by shaitand · · Score: 1

    The FDA has no authority to regulate if the juice contains no nicotine and teens who don't already spoke don't use the nicotine juice. You can make any flavor with or without it, the nicotine is an add on.

    1. Re:A waste of time by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      The FDA has no authority to regulate if the juice contains no nicotine and teens who don't already spoke don't use the nicotine juice. You can make any flavor with or without it, the nicotine is an add on.

      Its the FDA, not just the DA.

    2. Re:A waste of time by shaitand · · Score: 1

      Uh huh... last I checked nobody is eating the e-juice.

    3. Re:A waste of time by chiefcrash · · Score: 1

      Does a cloud of mist that one inhales qualifies as "food"?

      --
      Show me on the 1st Amendment bobblehead where the moderator touched you...
    4. Re:A waste of time by omnichad · · Score: 1

      People that sell liquids for fog machines are always talking about how their ingredients are all approved by the FDA. That doesn't mean the FDA regulates those at all, but I just thought it was an odd thing to advertise. There is no one that regulates the health of vaporized chemicals, especially propylene glycol. This is one thing where you have to do your own research if you don't want long term health problems rather than counting on a government agency to issue warnings.

    5. Re:A waste of time by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      Maybe it counts as a "drug" ?

    6. Re:A waste of time by chiefcrash · · Score: 1

      which makes one wonder why he felt to need to point out it's not just the "drug administration", it's the "FOOD & drug administration"

      (and then, what drug is a nicotine-free drug? Wouldn't the FDA have to regulate all fog machines at concerts if that's the case?)

      --
      Show me on the 1st Amendment bobblehead where the moderator touched you...
    7. Re:A waste of time by Mr+D+from+63 · · Score: 1

      Does a cloud of mist that one inhales qualifies as "food"?

      No, but if you look at the list of things the FDA is empowered to regulate, it pretty much falls into anything related to human health. Even cell phones and condoms, neither of which are food (for most I hope).

    8. Re:A waste of time by bobbied · · Score: 1

      The FDA has no authority to regulate if the juice contains no nicotine and teens who don't already spoke don't use the nicotine juice. You can make any flavor with or without it, the nicotine is an add on.

      What? The Food and Drug Administration most certainly DOES have the authority to regulate these things, nicotine or not. If you ingest it, inhale it, rub it on your skin or otherwise use it to get stuff into your body, even if it isn't the intended result, they have a say.

      This isn't to say they *should* do this, only that they do have the authority.

      Personally, I think they *should* put some curbs into this vaping thing, but only to limit the levels of the addictive components and perhaps limit the sales of the devices and the consumed components with addictive components to adults only. However, I'm not ready to argue these until the FDA has established the acceptable levels and rules related to sales and I agree they've not overstepped reason.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    9. Re:A waste of time by sjames · · Score: 1

      Actually, OSHA does.

    10. Re:A waste of time by omnichad · · Score: 1

      Only when used in a commercial environment.

    11. Re:A waste of time by Dragonslicer · · Score: 1

      Does a cloud of mist that one inhales qualifies as "food"?

      No, but if you look at the list of things the FDA is empowered to regulate, it pretty much falls into anything related to human health. Even cell phones and condoms, neither of which are food (for most I hope).

      When it comes to the FDA, "drug" also includes medical devices, which is why they have authority over things like condoms (which have a primary purpose of preventing the transmission of disease).

    12. Re:A waste of time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unfortunately they do. The FDA regulation has declared anything to do with ENDS (Electronic Nicotine Delivery Systems) a "tobacco product" whether of not it actually contains nicotine.

    13. Re:A waste of time by sjames · · Score: 1

      Sure, but the chemical and your body don't know that so you can apply the research more generally.

    14. Re:A waste of time by shaitand · · Score: 1

      Sure there is no regulation, or for that matter any real testing (especially when vaping began and people starting looking for what might be safe). You know that anything known to be harmful if eaten isn't being included in those ingredients. In the absence of any more specific measure it is a better indicator than nothing. There is a pretty huge overlap we between what is definitely going to be harmful inhaled and eaten and zero ability without regulation to determine if was used in manufacturing a vape flavoring... UNLESS that vape flavoring had to meet FDA requirements as a food flavoring.

      Using this precaution means not adding scent flavorings or something containing arsenic, lead, heavy metals sanitary conditions, etc.

      Unless by "do your own research" you meant that every corner shop and person mixing their own juice should be running their own lab gear and doing a chemical analysis of random clear smelly liquids to see what hides in them. It's not like you can just google it.

    15. Re:A waste of time by shaitand · · Score: 1

      "Personally, I think they *should* put some curbs into this vaping thing, but only to limit the levels of the addictive components and perhaps limit the sales of the devices and the consumed components with addictive components to adults only."

      They already do. They juices are regulated much like tobacco at this point but not the devices, the courts shut down their attempts to treat the devices as drug delivery devices when tobacco pipes are not regulated in such a manner.

      This isn't really about children, you don't add nicotine if you aren't addicted to nicotine and aside from maybe a couple tobacco replacement flavors that use tobacco in their manufacture it's an extra step and cost to add it. Kids aren't generally adding nicotine, their friends couldn't even tell. They might take a puff off one with nicotine to try a flavor or something but it takes months of regular use to become addicted to nicotine. This is either just a simple misguided effort or coming straight from the tobacco lobby... most likely a combination of the two. Kids are just being used here to kick in the protective instincts of us parents.

    16. Re:A waste of time by shaitand · · Score: 1

      Yes, and the courts have already denied them on their attempts to regulate e-cigs as medical devices. Which left regulating the juice in a similar manner to tobacco but if there is no nicotine in the juice that doesn't apply. That just leaves the food aspect which is quite difficult to argue given that nobody eats the stuff or claims you should eat it and it doesn't even go into ones stomach.

      If vapor is food then so is regular air. About the only thing the FDA does regulate without the nicotine involved is the flavorings added to the juice but only in the sense they certify them as food additives. It's imperfect because inhalation is not digestion but that regulation does give a consumer without a lab handy at least some level of assurance those additives don't contain any number of substances known to be harmful to humans and are produced with some safety standards in handling.

      It all circles around to this, nicotine costs money and adds a harshness to the vapor, only those already addicted to nicotine add it because there is no drive to do otherwise. If you are a kid and you want to vape like the other kids you just select nicotine free on anything but tobacco flavored juice at the counter (and only old long time smokers new to vaping get tobacco flavors, tobacco doesn't taste good).

      In other words this wouldn't impact kids, it targets people who have dropped tobacco in flavor of vaping. This probably a misguided effort spread with the backing of the tobacco lobby to curb vaping and bring people back to their deadly products. The sad thing is they are using kids to kick in parents protective instincts. A kid puffing on an e-cig without nicotine is indistinguishable from one with nicotine to his friends but if those friends are back to smoking tobacco products that stops being true.

    17. Re:A waste of time by shaitand · · Score: 1

      On second thought this might be more about kids... currently vaping has replaced smoking among the young and vaping without nicotine is indistinguishable from vaping with. You have younger generations not getting addicted to nicotine. Nobody likes tobacco flavors except long time smokers and the tobacco companies are simply outmatched on producing e-cig devices and flavors because fantastic flavors are blended without all the crap they add to them at stores on every corner now. The only place they make money is from production of the nicotine itself which gets extracted from tobacco. Actual tobacco products kill their users off, if this e-cig thing doesn't get stopped the tobacco industry will die with their users.

  4. The new bogey man by oldmac31310 · · Score: 1

    Ban it!

    --
    http://www.acetonestudio.com
  5. That will work for some but not all products. by FilmedInNoir · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Sure, you can regulate pre-made juice and disposable e-cigs but refillable e-cigs allows me the option to purchase the individual components to make my own e-juice.

    --
    Sig. Sig. Sputnik
    1. Re:That will work for some but not all products. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      funniest comment i've read on /. in weeks...

    2. Re:That will work for some but not all products. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, all those druggie Cigar and Cigarette users are just the worst....

      They just keep poisoning themselves and then those around them with that smoke they keep exhaling smelling like some frigging rancid bonfire soot. Don't even have the decency to make the noxious crap smell better.

  6. DIY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    While I applaud the sentiment, people can add their own flavors to the nicotine solution already, so I'm not sure how this will help.

    1. Re:DIY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Scale and accessiblity

  7. OK, maybe I missed it but... by DarkRookie · · Score: 1

    What flavors are they banning, and how are they determining that.
    Mine is a sweetish tobacco flavor with vanilla in it. Will that be banned?

    --
    The millennial that doesn't like most of the stuff designed for millennials.
    1. Re:OK, maybe I missed it but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      they all taste sweet because of the chemicals used to make the vapor, and since anything sweet tasting is clearly made and marketed for children.. all of em

  8. Why have nocotine at all? by orev · · Score: 1, Interesting

    It's really baffling that these e-cigarettes have nicotine in the first place. Isn't it obvious that including that ingredient is specifically done to create addiction? With tobacco at least one could argue that it's a natural part of the product, but by adding it to e-cigs CLEARLY shows the intention of the manufacturers to get people addicted. If you want e-cigs to help smokers stop smoking, that's one thing, but to have it generally available to everyone is just crazy.

    1. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you want e-cigs to help smokers stop smoking, that's one thing, but to have it generally available to everyone is just crazy.

      That's a LARGE part of the market, the overwhelming majority of people I know who vape do so specifically as a way to quit smoking. They start reducing the amount of nicotine in the juice over time, and eventually can reduce to zero. Then it's just a regular habit instead of a full blown addiction.

    2. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by Gilgaron · · Score: 3, Informative

      Not applicable to teens, perhaps, but it has helped my dad quit smoking and slowly decrease the nicotine content over time. Addiction aside, it is a stimulant, so there's that as something people might like.

    3. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by registrations_suck · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So....here we have a situation where:

      1). People want the nicotine.
      2). Companies have an incentive to provide it.

      So what's baffling about these e-cigarettes having nicotine?

      The baffling and just crazy part is you thinking it is any of your business.

    4. Re: Why have nocotine at all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you can buy without. People who are already addicted to cigarettes buy with, people who just want to vape buy without.

    5. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They have nicotine because one of the reasons that they're sold is to help people quit smoking. It's like nicotine gum or the nicotine patch. What they've become is the gateway to smoking. Inhaling anything but air is going to be bad for your lungs over the long term.

    6. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by JackieBrown · · Score: 1

      You can but the juices at any nictone level including 0.

      I use it instead of smoking cigarettes.

      This ban is a shitty idea. It's already illegal to sell to teens.

    7. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by DarkRookie · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I know some that have switched to vape because it is cheaper than cigarettes.

      --
      The millennial that doesn't like most of the stuff designed for millennials.
    8. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by houghi · · Score: 1

      But tobacco IS natural.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    9. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      It's really baffling that these e-cigarettes have nicotine in the first place.

      No it's not. The idea of the product was seen as a way of weening people off actual cigarette use. To achieve that they need to get the withdrawal problems under control and to create a "healthier" alternative without fighting underlying addiction the nicotine needs to be part of the product. If you want to quit there actual options for liquids whereby you can slowly reduce the nicotine content over time with the same flavour you vape, and there are also nicotine free options readily available.

      What you see as nefarious I see as an excellent way to get people to finally quit a truly filthy and medically self destructive habit.

    10. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by misexistentialist · · Score: 1

      It's kind of the whole point, it's like asking why beer contains alcohol. I guess they could use something like THC which is supposedly less addictive, but that is more mind-altering

    11. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not addicted to smoking, I'm addicted to nicotine and you'll pry that from my cold dead fingers. The whole point of eCigs is to satisfy nicotine cravings without inhaling smoke.

    12. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by Kielistic · · Score: 4, Informative

      Why stop there? Ban all caffeine too! It is addictive and has the same risk factors as nicotine. Plus all those sugary caffeinated drinks are clearly marketed solely to get children addicted.

      Nicotine in vape liquid is not "to get people addicted". It is because people want nicotine. People like nicotine because it is a stimulant. Nicotine is addictive because it is a stimulant and because people like it.

    13. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by KiloByte · · Score: 1

      Except that the marketing is aimed at getting new people into that truly filthy and medically self destructive habit. In this case, cigarettes hardly ever get fruit flavouring, thus smokers can't be accustomed to that, and the argument about helping them drop the habit is pure bullshit.

      --
      The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
    14. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not even that. I was a >pack/day smoker. I switched to vaping, and after a careful, measured downgrade over the course of 3 years, I am now completely nicotine, and even vape free.

    15. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What they've become is the gateway to smoking.

      Got statistics on that? Go into any vape store, anywhere, and you'll find more folks that have decreased the amount of nicotine and/or frequency of vaping vs. what they did with cigarettes. It's not even close to parity.

    16. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by washort · · Score: 1

      Is there any evidence that nicotine is addictive? (This is different from cigarettes being addictive.)

    17. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by JackieBrown · · Score: 1

      They are only a gateway to smoking if we ban them.

      No one is voluntarily going to go from a tasty $50 a month habit to a $150-$200 a month habit that also tastes terrible.

    18. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by fafalone · · Score: 1

      I've never used nicotine in my life, but if I so wanted I could walk down to the corner and buy nicotine gum and nicotine patches. Why shouldn't I be able to also buy a nicotine vape? Or do you object to the others too... given how rare principled stands are here I doubt it.

    19. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by Pubstar · · Score: 2

      Except that the marketing is aimed at getting new people into that truly filthy and medically self destructive habit.

      Citation Needed

      In this case, cigarettes hardly ever get fruit flavouring, thus smokers can't be accustomed to that, and the argument about helping them drop the habit is pure bullshit.

      I actually started smoking originally when the Camel Crema, Izmir Stingers, and other flavored cigarettes were around. I switched to cloves after those were dropped. The thing with flavored e-Cigs is that they they actually taste good and smell good. It was a good alternative to smoking and it made me smell better. Anecdotally, majority of the people who vape at my local shop are all ex smokers. Yeah, there are a few kids chasing the fad, but they are the minority.

      Mind if I ask you if you also hold the belief that alcohol should also not come in any flavors (anything from Smirnoff Ice to Schnapps) as well?

    20. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by Roger+Wilcox · · Score: 1

      The marketing by Philip Morris, RJ Reynolds, et. al. is of course aimed at getting new people into the habit. They are attempting to maintain their classic role as tobacco monopolists. They are also way behind the technology curve and are playing catch up to the innovators in the vaping market space who have developed these products as an alternative for smokers.

      Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Don't condemn smokers like me who have used this technology to quit cigarettes. Teen smoking has been a thing as long as smoking has been a thing. "Think of the children" is nothing but a mantra of tyrants.

    21. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by h4ck7h3p14n37 · · Score: 1

      The person sitting next to me at work has a box mod and takes "smoke" breaks every hour or so. It seems like addictive behavior to me.

      The people I know with wax pens and oil cartridges? They only use them during the lunch break.

    22. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by chiefcrash · · Score: 1

      It's really baffling that these energy tablets have caffeine in the first place. Isn't it obvious that including that ingredient is specifically done to create addiction?

      --
      Show me on the 1st Amendment bobblehead where the moderator touched you...
    23. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm glad you agree to support my new product e-Opium which is much safer than injecting with needles.

    24. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep. Vaping help me quit smoking. I'm down to a very low nicotine vape, and no more hacking cough like I had with cigarettes. The government officials who want to ban vaping or regulate it into nonexistence are pissed that people are quitting smoking and they're losing those tax dollars. They would rather see me smoking and coughing and getting lung cancer than vaping, because they can't tax the shit out of me for vaping.

    25. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except that the other products have been shown to have effectiveness in treating smoking which has not been shown with vaping.

    26. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by elrous0 · · Score: 2

      Helped me quit too. Vaping is the first thing that really worked. Those patches, gum, etc. are fucking worthless. But vaping let me draw down my nicotine usage until I didn't need it at all anymore.

      I suspect that's why to government wants to ban vaping. If people quit smoking, then goodbye tobacco tax revenues. Vaping scares the tobacco industry and politicians, because it actually WORKS in getting people off their over-taxed cancer sticks.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    27. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by elrous0 · · Score: 2

      the argument about helping them drop the habit is pure bullshit.

      It helped me quit. Do you think I'm bullshit?

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    28. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      The ingredient is there because many people are using eCigs as a way to get off cigarettes.

      e-Cigs are safer than cigarettes, albeit not "safe" (to expand on that, because I don't want anyone left with the impression they're safe: Flavored eCigs are almost certainly carcinogenic. They're not pure water, there's carbon based flavoring added, which when burnt creates carcinogenic compounds. Are they as bad as cigarettes? No! Obviously not! Cigarettes have more carbon-based material to burn, and nicotine weakens the body's natural defenses against cancer. But they're not "safe" either. What about unflavored eCigs? Well, if they contain nicotine then they're still weakening your body's defenses against cancer, so you're more likely to get cancer than if you didn't smoke or vape at all, just not from the eCig itself.)

      Given the choice between kicking the habit, which is hard, or taking something that's much, much, less likely to give you cancer than the regular way to smoke, it's rather obvious why there's a market for eCigs with nicotine in them.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    29. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by dwillden · · Score: 2

      The intention is to satisfy the Nicotine craving while eliminating the harmful toxins and poisons of the Tobacco. Nicotine is addictive, but other than that and being a mild stimulant like caffeine it isn't harmful.

      It gives the most commonly claimed benefit of cigs, the stimulation of the Nicotine) without the poisons. Of course it makes sense to include nicotine.

      --
      I'm too lazy to compose a creative sig.
    30. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well if your product can provide the benefits without the health risks, it should sell like wildfire.

    31. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by Wrath0fb0b · · Score: 1

      [ Full disclosure: former cigarette smoker ]

      I don't think (1) is as clear cut as you make it. Lots of smokers will tell you (simultaneously) that they want a cigarette and also want to quit smoking. Or pedantically, they want( ! want(smoke) ), which is odd in a kind of recursive wanting-about-wanting sort of way. You can model this in all sorts of fancy mathematical ways -- nested desires, temporal inconsistencies, hyperbolic discount factors, but intuitively, we all kind of grok the idea that human 'want' is not a self-consistent thing with a well-defined meaning. Heck, there are famous studies that show that if you let people chose freely from a list, there's a significant bias towards the first item, which ought to definitively resolve that human desires are sometimes ill-defined[1].

      So far, I think that's just a matter of fact. Sometimes there's an idea batted around that if you believe this fact, you must accept the policy implications that it's "any of your business" as if it's an inexorable march from "people have inconsistent desires" to a paternalistic dystopia. I think that's a profoundly mistaken idea. At least for me personally, I believe "people want X" is an ill-defined concept while still believing (for the most part) in freedom and individual choice.

      The scary thing to me is that if you go the Ayn Rand route and justify freedom on the basis that "people want X, therefore they did X", you are (IMHO) now greatly undermining the case for individual choice because you've made it contingent on all this baggage.

      [1] As a side note: the fact that human desires are ill-defined in some cases doesn't make them entirely non-entities either. That's another extreme that says that if a thing is not platonically perfect then it must not exist. I think we all grok that human wants are really extant and that pointing out various inconsistencies or other oddities is entirely a different claim from claiming they don't exist.

    32. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by registrations_suck · · Score: 1

      Absolutely. I support everyone's right to inject, insert, snort, absorb, consume or inhale any substance they wish into their own bodies.

      What I AM in favour of is regulating behavior that puts others at risk. So while you are free to use whatever drug you want as far as I am concerned, I'll happily regulate your right to drive a vehicle, go to work, or whatever else that may put someone else at risk over your foolishness.

    33. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by omnichad · · Score: 1

      Plenty. Probably not as addictive as caffeine.

    34. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Except that the marketing is aimed at getting new people

      Cool story. Nothing at all to do with my direct reply on why nicotine is there in the first place.

    35. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by registrations_suck · · Score: 2

      No, they don't.

      Sure they do. Plenty of people like the high it provides them. Just like coffee drinkers like the high that it provides, or that alcohol drinkers like the effects that alcohol has on them.

      The baffling part is how you and your ilk are willing to sell-out society because you cling to the idea that nothing should stand in the way of a company making a profit.

      I'm not selling out anybody. I've got no profit motive here. And I don't even care if someone else is making a profit. That's the point. My perspective is not based on profits.

      This isn't about personal freedoms

      That is EXACTLY what it is about.

      it's about protecting people who are scientifically proven to not possess all the faculties to make an informed decision which will most definitely negatively impact their future.

      One of the most important freedoms you have is to make your own decisions about your life - and that includes making decisions that, objectively, are not in your own best interest. Freedom provides an opportunity to BOTH succeed AND make mistakes.

      I've got no problem with people voluntarily abstaining from such substances. I've got a lot of problem with people being forced to abstain OR CONSUME such substances.

      By your logic, no one under the age of 25 or so, because science has shown the brain is not fully developed by then, should be able to make any decisions that materially affect their future or others...everything from driving a car, to having sex, having an abortion, getting married, choosing a school, choosing a career, choosing where to live, etc. etc. etc. One bad choice in any of that can FUCK YOU UP! For the betterment of society, the state will have to make all those choices for you. Yeah. No thanks.

    36. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      I've stopped using caffeine on a couple of occasions. It was no big deal, so the addictive effect is very mild.

    37. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by dwillden · · Score: 2

      Yes
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine
      it's well documented that Nicotine is the primary addictive ingredient in tobacco. But it's health risks are minimal. If you can get the nicotine without the tobacco it's far better for your body.

      --
      I'm too lazy to compose a creative sig.
    38. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except that the marketing is aimed at getting new people into that truly filthy and medically self destructive habit. In this case, cigarettes hardly ever get fruit flavouring, thus smokers can't be accustomed to that, and the argument about helping them drop the habit is pure bullshit.

      No company has to convince people to smoke anymore. People who want to smoke, whether new users or lifetime smokers, will keep smoking. Restricting advertising made no difference. Putting warnings saying it will kill you made no difference. Stigmatizing it made no difference. Shaming made no difference. Seeing a trend?

      Every legitimate study shows that e-cigs reduce the amount of chemicals delivered with their nicotine fix as well as many of the harmful properties of second hand smoke. Is it healthy? Of course not but neither is drinking or fast food. This is just another fools errand wasting the time and money of an organization that has better things to do like approving lifesaving drugs and procedures. I couldn't care less if people want to voluntarily do something less harmful then what they were already going to do.

    39. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, nicotine is the compound that makes tobbacco addictive, it has been compared to heroin in difficulty to quit.
      https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/nicotine-dependence/symptoms-causes/syc-20351584
      https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/conditions/nicotine

      It's also quite toxic and has been used as a highly effective poison.
      https://abcnews.go.com/US/paul-curry-convicted-1994-nicotine-poisoning-death-wife/story?id=25881116

    40. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry I must apologise I didn't give your comment the reply it deserved. Let me try again.

      Except that the marketing is aimed at getting new people

      Yeah and? You asked why nicotine is in there. Why are you now blabbering on about marketing other than drastically moving goalposts after the ball has already been netted?

      getting new people into that truly filthy and medically self destructive habit

      Except there's nothing filthy of medically self destructive about the new habit. So way you either missed the point, or never understood what you're talking about in the first place.

      In this case, cigarettes hardly ever get fruit flavouring

      Absolute horseshit. Flavoured cigarettes were produced by every manufacturer and are still available from many. Can I recommend a Camel Spiced Crema? It is nice and fruity according to the package, or maybe you're more of a Camel Margarita Mixer kind of a person.

      and the argument about helping them drop the habit is pure bullshit

      Sure if you ignore all the studies of people quitting altogether, the studies showing how e-cigarettes primarily offset actual cigarette smokers, and the advice from doctors, quit lines, and governments who are actively using e-cigarettes as an already proven method to help people quit then yeah I imagine you would think it's bullshit. You could also ignore some more deeper studies that show people who have switched from cigarettes to e-cigarettes are far more likely to succeed quitting when they try and far more likely to try too. But ignorance is bliss, and if you think you're not totally ignorant on the topic may I suggest you do a google search and then get your brain scanned for tumors.

      There now I think this reply far better addresses the content of your post.

    41. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Is there any evidence that nicotine is addictive?

      Are you special?

      In case you were asking legitimately the "Is there any evidence the sky looks blue" kind of question, then I have this link here:
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p...

      Let me also know if you think the world is flat.

    42. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by fireylord · · Score: 0

      The ingredient is there because many people are using eCigs as a way to get off cigarettes.

      e-Cigs are safer than cigarettes, albeit not "safe" (to expand on that, because I don't want anyone left with the impression they're safe: Flavored eCigs are almost certainly carcinogenic.

      Cite some sources?

      They're not pure water, there's carbon based flavoring added, which when burnt creates carcinogenic compounds.

      Vaping doesn't burn anything

      Are they as bad as cigarettes? No! Obviously not! Cigarettes have more carbon-based material to burn, and nicotine weakens the body's natural defenses against cancer. But they're not "safe" either. What about unflavored eCigs? Well, if they contain nicotine then they're still weakening your body's defenses against cancer,

      Cite sources on this too? explain how nicotine on it's own is any worse than caffeine, for instance?

      so you're more likely to get cancer than if you didn't smoke or vape at all, just not from the eCig itself.)

      Given the choice between kicking the habit, which is hard, or taking something that's much, much, less likely to give you cancer than the regular way to smoke, it's rather obvious why there's a market for eCigs with nicotine in them.

    43. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The entire point of e-cigs is as a nicotine or THC delivery system.
      The target market is people who want to smoke but don't because of health concerns or peer pressure/legal issues making it inconvenient.

      The non-drug fluids are mainly for plausible deniability (also for DIY-ers, particularly DIY THC mixes, and teens who add nocotine to the non-drug mix themselves). When somone tells you you can't smoke in their bar, a cop thinks you look high, or your parents catch you with it, you can claim it's just flavored water and they can't easily prove you wrong because the npn-drug fluids exist. If they're gullible enough they'll let you get away with it.

    44. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it should sell like wildfire.

      Will not be popular in California.

    45. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Smoking heroin is very much a thing and fairly similar to vaping but with no use of electronics.

    46. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, it is because vaping is bad for people's health (not just the vaper's, FWIW) but doesn't have the same stigma. I see people vaping inside and at "no smoking" locations at least once a week. When confronted, most of them reply with "It's just water vapor," or "It's not real smoke." Well, if it isn't real or just water vapor, why do you pay so much for it or feel the need to do it, Hmmm? Just fill it with distilled water, am I right?

      So you have kids, who don't make the smartest decisions anyway, wanting to vape to look cool, just like their buddies, but without all the same messages surrounding addiction and the negative health consequences. In fact, smoking rates are slowly increasing among teens and young adults precisely because of the spread of vaping. And yes, plenty of places adjust for the fact that vaping liquid doesn't have to have nicotine in it and don't count those people, not that it is much better for your health without said nicotine. You also need to factor in that there is a significant number of people who are getting more addicted to nicotine using e-cigs, as they are slowly increasing the amount of nicotine in their "juice" because the weak stuff doesn't do it enough.

    47. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bullshit. The effectiveness of vaping on quitting smoking has not been shown simply because Big Pharma hasn't put millions of dollars into studies confirming it. Nearly every person I have met that vapes is doing so to cut down on or quit smoking cigarettes. That is why I vape, and in 3 years I have gradually reduced my nicotine use from 3 packs/day to the equivalent of about a pack a month now, and still reducing slowly. My habit went from $250 a month to about $30 a month and I'm consuming MUCH less nicotine.

      As to flavors, all e-cigarettes are flavored. Even the "tobacco" flavored ones are just that, flavored to taste that way. The PG and VG have no flavor of their own, and the nicotine has no real flavor either, just a mild burning of the throat. So, ALL e-cigarettes are flavored. Even real cigarettes are flavored, they have to add mint and menthol to keep them from tasting like shit.

      I know or have heard of NO ONE going from e-cigs to real cigarettes, but myself and many like me have done exactly the opposite, so please stop spreading this bullshit. Just because no one has funded a study doesn't mean it's true (or false) so stop quoting non-facts to further a spurious argument.

    48. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if I so wanted I could walk down to the corner and buy nicotine gum and nicotine patches. Why shouldn't I be able to also buy a nicotine vape?

      Does the nicotine gum come in fun colors and flavors in a package with unicorns or superheroes on it?

    49. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by IcyWolfy · · Score: 1

      I get non-nicotine vape juice, so it pretty much is just water vapour.
      Tasty flavoured air.

    50. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

      Except that the other products have been shown to have effectiveness in treating smoking which has not been shown with vaping.

      You could try posting some links to studies that have not shown it. The "other products" effectiveness really isn't very good - in fact it's very close to the cold turkey method.

      According to the NHS, lots of people have used vaping to quit smoking. Where are your studies?

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    51. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      What I AM in favour of is regulating behavior that puts others at risk.

      As long as you're not the one being regulated, right? Even Socrates knew that anonymous forums were toxic cesspools of confirmation bias, where hatred breeds, so does that mean you're going to stop posting under an anonymous pseudonym? Probably not.

      You know what I'm in favor of regulation? Individuals who think they have some impetus to tell the rest of us what rights we can and cannot have.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    52. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yeah, its not. At a minimum, there will be propylene glycol, some form of glycerin, or another chemical in it as a diluent or solvent (depending on the mix) for the oil-based flavorings. Fun fact, neither of those become water vapor when aerosolized, and water won't work as a diluent or solvent for oil-based flavorings.

    53. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      The intention is to satisfy the Nicotine craving while eliminating the harmful toxins and poisons of the cigarette.

      FTFY - natural tobacco actually doesn't have a lot of harmful chemicals, most of those (like coal tar, formaldehyde, and yes even nicotine*) are sprayed on cigarettes at the factory, and are often present due to government regulation; coal tar, a known carcinogen, is the legally required chemical that makes cigarettes "fire-safe"

      *Nicotine levels in natural tobacco are 20-some-odd lower than the levels found in most full-flavor cigarettes.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    54. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by swb · · Score: 1

      I used oxycodone for about a year and quitting was no big deal, so the addictive effect must be very mild.

    55. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by registrations_suck · · Score: 1

      You know what I'm in favor of regulation? Individuals who think they have some impetus to tell the rest of us what rights we can and cannot have.

      I totally agree - up to the point where you assert the right to do just that.

    56. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why stop there? Ban all caffeine too! It is addictive and has the same risk factors as nicotine. Plus all those sugary caffeinated drinks are clearly marketed solely to get children addicted.

      Nicotine in vape liquid is not "to get people addicted". It is because people want nicotine. People like nicotine because it is a stimulant. Nicotine is addictive because it is a stimulant and because people like it.

      Here’s another extreme: let’s open up the market to candy scented nicotine patches with different Sponge Bob characters on them, sold over the Internet.

      Now with with bullshit out of the way can we have a real discussion about stimulants marketed towards or used by children? Or no, you just want to be a dick.

    57. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

      Sure they could, if the tax was on nicotine itself rather than the delivery method. I'm not saying it's a good idea, but it's certainly not a difficult one to implement.

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    58. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

      That's because we happily give wildfires away.

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    59. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

      But that would contradict the Puritan Vision (which has never stopped being a fundamental thread of this country) that every vice must have a price.

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    60. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

      My anecdotal experience is the exact opposite. I've experimented with many things, including things known for having high correlation with addiction. The only one that keeps hooking me, repeatedly, is caffeine. It may take a couple years of "good" experiences, but it eventually stops working, and the consumption escalates just to achieve maintenance doses until the only way out is to quit, which sucks for two weeks -- not just for me, but for anyone who has to deal with me.

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    61. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by sjames · · Score: 1

      Funny thing there. We now know that nicotine is one of the few substances that does any good whatsoever with the negative symptoms of schizophrenia. It is now thought that is an explaination for the fact that the mentally ill are vastly more likely to smoke than other demographics.

      Are you SURE they were acting against their own well being by taking the one substance that treated this otherwise untreated cluster of symptoms?

      So sure that you are ready to infantalize them by overriding their own judgement with yours?

      It is also known to be protective against various cognitive declines and memory problems. Smoking and vaping are probably both useful as stress management tools (the former with a much larger downside than the latter).

      Even worse, are you sure it's a good idea to ban a fairly benign means of administration, forcing people to the most harmful known method of administration?

      If anything, we should discourage cigarettes and make e-cigs as cheap and easy to acquire as possible.

    62. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by sjames · · Score: 1

      It seems to me that teens are likely to use nicotine now, just as they have for centuries. It also seems that it's better if they do it by vaping rather than smoking.

    63. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by sjames · · Score: 1

      Your coworker may be habituated, or it's just not "out of his system" yet.

      Cigarettes include a MAO inhibitor that potentiates nicotine and maximizes it's addictive qualities. e-juice doesn't have it, so after a while the desire for nicotine becomes much less urgent as well as less frequent.

      When first switching, the biggest mistake people make is going too low on the nicotine level. That just perpetuates the problem and makes going back to smoking more likely.

      It works best when you go high on the nicotine to start (compensating for no longer having a MAOI potentiating it) , then taper down.

      It may also be that work sux and he has found an excuse for a break that the boss accepts.

    64. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by sjames · · Score: 1

      It's not actually a bad question. Following your link, they manage to conflate smoking and nicotine consumption in every single paragraph. Cigarette smoke is known to contain MAO inhibitors that potentiate the effects of nicotine, particularly the addictive characteristics.

      While I doubt nicotine alone has zero addictive qualities, it almost certainly has a much weaker addictive effect by itself. It's nearly impossible to find any study on harmful effects of "nicotine" that don't turn out to actually mean smoking or occasionally chewing tobacco. So difficult, in fact, that OP's question isn't actually unreasonable at all.

      The science is sloppy to say the least and drips of a deep awareness that the funding agencies are deeply interested in the "right" answers to all the questions.

      Naturally, the tobacco industry's sponsored "research" is no better and certainly it isn't interested in nicotine ingestion other than by smoking or chewing either.

    65. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by sjames · · Score: 1

      I wasn't able to vape for 4 days once and didn't have much of a problem either.

    66. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I vape to quit smoking and vaping is allowing me to gradually step down how much nicotine I use. If they ban flavors, then I will be back out on the street smoking burning leaves again, but this time having lost ALL respect for the non-smokers who banned my vape juice.
      Stop pretending this is about peoples health. This is about money, plain and simple. The vape industry is cutting into Big Tobacco's profits, and thus the government is losing money that they are normally paid by the tobacco companies .

      Just Google "Tobacco Master Settlement Agreement" and see that the government has been in bed with Big Tobacco for decades.

    67. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Let me guess, you read to paragraph 4 and stopped.

      While I doubt nicotine alone has zero addictive qualities, it almost certainly has a much weaker addictive effect by itself.

      aaaaaannnnnnnnd Sssssscitation required!

      It's nearly impossible to find any study on harmful effects of "nicotine" that don't turn out to actually mean smoking or occasionally chewing tobacco. So difficult, in fact, that OP's question isn't actually unreasonable at all.

      Except the chemical effect of nicotine is readily known (and also explained in the link). And there are plenty of studies on the raw chemical itself. All it takes is a bit of Google, and if you need then a subscription to a journal or two.

      The science is sloppy to say the least

      I take it you're an AGW denier too? Just because you don't look for the specific science you're after doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It just means you have bad google-fu, or nature-fu if you're searching for a journal.

      But hey, I'm at work so I didn't dedicate more than 10 second to the first search result: https://www.nature.com/article... a study on the isolated nicotine chemical and it's affect on the dopamine nurons. Better still, it compares it to cocaine! How do I get to be part of that study!

    68. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Vaping doesn't burn anything

      If they used microwaves to heat the fluid, that might be correct, but they don't. They use a heating element and it has hotspots. These are not precision devices.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    69. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by sjames · · Score: 1

      You want a cite? Start with the link you posted! See the part on MONAMINE OXIDASE. YOU read that, didn't you?

      Of course, the entire article is ABOUT the role of nicotine in sustaining the behavior of SMOKING. OP is looking for information on nicotine not consumed as part of tobacco consumption.

      As for your second link reading the non-paywalled part, it is about nicotine in smokers and a long list of references to other works about nicotine in the context of smoking. In other words, nothing about nicotine not in the context of smoking.

      You say it's easy to find, but you failed.

      Try this one. They administered nicotine as a freebase to rats. One group got just nicotine and the other got nicotine and MAOI. The second group showed a dramatically increased habituation. Guess which group smokers are in? Now guess which group vapers are in.

      So yeah, there is a real question about how addictive nicotine is when divorced from the MAOIs present in cigarette smoke.

    70. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except that the marketing is aimed at getting new people into that truly filthy and medically self destructive habit.

      Citation Needed

      In this case, cigarettes hardly ever get fruit flavouring, thus smokers can't be accustomed to that, and the argument about helping them drop the habit is pure bullshit.

      I actually started smoking originally when the Camel Crema, Izmir Stingers, and other flavored cigarettes were around. I switched to cloves after those were dropped. The thing with flavored e-Cigs is that they they actually taste good and smell good. It was a good alternative to smoking and it made me smell better. Anecdotally, majority of the people who vape at my local shop are all ex smokers. Yeah, there are a few kids chasing the fad, but they are the minority.

      Mind if I ask you if you also hold the belief that alcohol should also not come in any flavors (anything from Smirnoff Ice to Schnapps) as well?

      Man I also smoked those Camel flavors (the orange citrus one whatever it was called was my favorite!) and then I also switched to cloves, but then cloves were banned and became cigars, so I switched to e-cigs. Never looked back!

    71. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by fireylord · · Score: 1

      It only burns if there's no liquid at the point of contact, and what burns is the wick in this situation. As the pg/vg mix is a liquid it has very good thermoconductive qualities. Unless you're running a headbanging mod that raises temperatures to stupid levels the coil should not burn the pg/vg mixture. You would be immediately able to tell from the smell/flavour, just like commercial smoke machines.

    72. Re:Why have nocotine at all? by Kielistic · · Score: 1

      Adults like things that taste good too. Where was this outrage with birthday cake vodka came out? I'm really not sure where this concept that "nicotine must taste bad but alcohol and caffeine are fine" came from.

      How am I the dick here?

  9. I thought they were safe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    what happened to its not smoke so its safe and all that. whore cares if lots of kids are doing it, if its not a health concern... unless it actually is a health concern... clarification required.

    1. Re:I thought they were safe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nah. Whore don't care 'bout nut'n.

    2. Re:I thought they were safe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You talkin' 'bout Kiki? Yeah... that's girl's arrite.

    3. Re:I thought they were safe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nicotine still causes issues in the lungs.

    4. Re:I thought they were safe by omnichad · · Score: 1

      Breathing PG vapor is a health concern. Much safer than smoke, but not a good daily habit with no long-term studies to know just how bad.

    5. Re:I thought they were safe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Breathing PG vapor is a health concern. Much safer than smoke, but not a good daily habit with no long-term studies to know just how bad.

      There are in fact long term studies that show that breathing PG vapor is SAFE

    6. Re:I thought they were safe by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

      Just the same, propylene glycol has no desirable effect so I prefer to get cartridges that don't have it. Unfortunately, the ones that do have it are much easier to take big rips from, as they solve the problem of THC and CBD both having rather high viscosity.

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    7. Re:I thought they were safe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The vapor is mostly VG; PG is just the flavor carrier like how it carries the asthma medication in the mist produced by nebulizers (not sure if all asthma medications have PG but some do).

  10. Prohibition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Prohibition works great! Look at all the money there is to be made in the drug creation, enforcement and prison systems! I mean, there are occasionally issues here and there, but that's nothing that more brutal enforcement and punitive punishments can't fix.

  11. Re:How about this by registrations_suck · · Score: 0

    I propose we limit it to just one receiver - and you've been nominated.

  12. Controls a 3 pack a day habit.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Vaping, for some of us, is the only thing that we found that could keep us from smoking. Personally, I will sue the FDA if they do this. For my own health and ability to breathe. My Peach 3mil Vape juice is FAR less nicotine than the 12mg PER CIGARETTE that I was ingesting before. Smoker since age 11. Almost 30 years, and up to 3 packs A DAY. Vaping took that habit away in a SINGLE DAY. No more bad smells, no more wheezing and coughing, immediate improvement in breathing function, better sleep.... If you take that away, MANY MANY MANY people will sue. This is a lifeline for some. Get off your lazy asses and control the sale better!

    1. Re:Controls a 3 pack a day habit.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You need the nicotine, not the peach. He's not (currently) talking about banning e-cigarettes, just the sweet flavored ones.

    2. Re:Controls a 3 pack a day habit.... by registrations_suck · · Score: 1

      Personally, I will sue the FDA if they do this.

      No you won't.

    3. Re:Controls a 3 pack a day habit.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe get some therapy to find out why you're such an addicted personality.

      There's obviously something seriously wrong with you if you HAVE to be addicted to SOMETHING all the time.

      Maybe mom should have hugged you more.

    4. Re:Controls a 3 pack a day habit.... by FlipperPA · · Score: 4, Informative

      Here here. This move completely ignores the fact that sales are only for those over 18, and the science on the issue: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/e-cigarettes-around-95-less-harmful-than-tobacco-estimates-landmark-review

      Nicotine on its own is much like caffeine: highly addictive, but not that harmful. It's the other crap in cigarettes that kills you. Vaping has no carcinogens.

      But don't let science get in the way of some good political FUD, eh?

    5. Re:Controls a 3 pack a day habit.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the glycol used to make the vapor is what gives em the sweet flavor, not the 'flavoring', all ecigs are sweet flavored ones.. the flavoring is just to make the sweetness tolerable.

    6. Re:Controls a 3 pack a day habit.... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Nicotine on its own is much like caffeine: highly addictive, but not that harmful. It's the other crap in cigarettes that kills you. Vaping has no carcinogens.

      That is a lie. Vape smoke has less carcinogens than tobacco smoke, but not none.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    7. Re:Controls a 3 pack a day habit.... by KiloByte · · Score: 1

      But don't let science get in the way of some good political FUD, eh?

      Then how do you explain new results that show vaping to be nearly as harmful as smoking, just in very different ways?

      So, uhm, I'd consider looking whether either of the studies got some kind donations from nice guys so interested in making people healthier...

      --
      The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
    8. Re:Controls a 3 pack a day habit.... by alvinrod · · Score: 1

      Vaping might not be as harmful as cigarettes, but I don't know if it's harmless, or at least as close to it as anything could be. You're still inhaling something other than air into your lungs and that's going to have some side effects. They might be so small or require such repeated exposure that the health issues are essentially non-existent for the average person in otherwise good health, but I think the jury is still out on if there are any significant long term effects from prolonged use.

      I'd put it as a "least concern" type of item, but I wouldn't want to tell anyone that it's perfectly safe to vape all day long for their entire life.

    9. Re:Controls a 3 pack a day habit.... by avandesande · · Score: 1

      There has been no studies showing that vaping is 'nearly as harmful' as smoking. Please cite your sources.

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
    10. Re:Controls a 3 pack a day habit.... by Whibla · · Score: 1

      Then how do you explain new results that show vaping to be nearly as harmful as smoking, just in very different ways?

      Without perusing the 'new results' I'd say any explanation for them is premature.

      Unlike the GP, who did provide a link to his sources, you don't say which 'new results' you're referring to though, or where you read them.

      Care to share?

    11. Re:Controls a 3 pack a day habit.... by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Personally, I will sue the FDA if they do this.

      No you won't.

      You can sue anybody and the judge can just toss your lawsuit to the curb... You might be able to get an attorney to file the lawsuit for you if you pay them enough, but suing the FDA will get it tossed out before it ever reaches trial.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    12. Re:Controls a 3 pack a day habit.... by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

      Nicotine on its own is much like caffeine: highly addictive, but not that harmful. It's the other crap in cigarettes that kills you. Vaping has no carcinogens.

      That is a lie. Vape smoke has less carcinogens than tobacco smoke, but not none.

      [citation needed]

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    13. Re:Controls a 3 pack a day habit.... by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 2

      But don't let science get in the way of some good political FUD, eh?

      Then how do you explain new results that show vaping to be nearly as harmful as smoking, just in very different ways?

      Propaganda, from sources that prefer people to smoke cigarettes because that benefits them.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    14. Re:Controls a 3 pack a day habit.... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      That is a lie. Vape smoke has less carcinogens than tobacco smoke, but not none.

      [citation needed]

      No, citations abound. Google "vape smoke carcinogens", and learn to internet already. What year is it that you don't know how to search the web?

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    15. Re:Controls a 3 pack a day habit.... by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

      That is a lie. Vape smoke has less carcinogens than tobacco smoke, but not none.

      [citation needed]

      No, citations abound. Google "vape smoke carcinogens",

      I asked you, because you seemed to know something Google doesn't, as all the links returned simply talk about how much safer vape is from the cigarette smoke, which contains a large number of known carcinogens that are either non-existent or insignificant (non-cancer causing) in vapor.

      That, and a lot of propaganda and misreported information.

      and learn to internet already. What year is it that you don't know how to search the web?

      You don't seem to have learned anything about it yourself, since you think vape produces smoke.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    16. Re:Controls a 3 pack a day habit.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is a lie. Vape smoke has less carcinogens than tobacco smoke, but not none.

      No such thing as "vape smoke" It's vapor. Hence the term "vape." Also nothing more than trace amounts of anything found in it. Trace amounts being, just enough to detect. Insufficient amounts to cause cancer or present harm. I think the statistic was that you would need to fill up a bar with 36,000 people vaping to present the same danger as one cigarette presents from second hand smoke.

      Of course, there were issues with batteries, and chemical formulations. All the hubub about risk of popcorn lung, despite not even so much as a single case, and the fact that traditional cigarettes were never flagged as a cause for popcorn lung, despite the fact that the same chemicals are present in much larger quantities there.

      There's a decade of research on this now. We can't say, "we just don't know" anymore. We do. But we keep moving the goal posts because everyone wants it to be terrible for you, even though it's not.

    17. Re:Controls a 3 pack a day habit.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is a lie. Vape smoke has less carcinogens than tobacco smoke, but not none.

      Vapor is NOT smoke and citation needed on the carcinogens.

    18. Re:Controls a 3 pack a day habit.... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      No, citations abound. Google "vape smoke carcinogens",

      I asked you, because you seemed to know something Google doesn't, as all the links returned simply talk about how much safer vape is from the cigarette smoke,

      Your logical fallacy is moving the goalposts. The question wasn't whether it was safer. Learn to read. The question was whether vaping produces carcinogens.

      You don't seem to have learned anything about it yourself, since you think vape produces smoke.

      It's a colloquialism. Again, learn to read.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    19. Re:Controls a 3 pack a day habit.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Vaping might not be as harmful as cigarettes, but I don't know if it's harmless, or at least as close to it as anything could be. You're still inhaling something other than air into your lungs and that's going to have some side effects. They might be so small or require such repeated exposure that the health issues are essentially non-existent for the average person in otherwise good health, but I think the jury is still out on if there are any significant long term effects from prolonged use.

      I'd put it as a "least concern" type of item, but I wouldn't want to tell anyone that it's perfectly safe to vape all day long for their entire life.

      So the fuck what? Let adults have their flavor vapes even if it kills them, why do you (or anyone else) care?!?!

    20. Re:Controls a 3 pack a day habit.... by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

      No, citations abound. Google "vape smoke carcinogens",

      I asked you, because you seemed to know something Google doesn't, as all the links returned simply talk about how much safer vape is from the cigarette smoke,

      Your logical fallacy is moving the goalposts. The question wasn't whether it was safer. Learn to read. The question was whether vaping produces carcinogens.

      You don't seem to have learned anything about it yourself, since you think vape produces smoke.

      It's a colloquialism. Again, learn to read.

      Claiming imprecision on the part of someone else is "moving the goalposts," but the same on your own behalf is "a colloquialism" is the height of hypocrisy. Besides which, you're wrong, as, again, there are no carcinogens in vape at levels that are actually carcinogenic.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
  13. The flavor is why teens try it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't think that the flavoring is the problem, it's the nicotine. Otherwise, who would ever pick up smoking? It really only tastes good once you're addicted.

    1. Re:The flavor is why teens try it? by DarkRookie · · Score: 1

      The flavoring is part of the issue
      Some of these taste exactly like candy, so idiot kids don't know any better.

      --
      The millennial that doesn't like most of the stuff designed for millennials.
    2. Re:The flavor is why teens try it? by registrations_suck · · Score: 1

      Otherwise, who would ever pick up smoking?

      Simply because they're morons who:

      1). Are sheep (submit to peer pressure).
      2). Think it makes them look cool.
      3). Think it is a sign of rebelling against authority.
      4). Do not have a forward-thinking mentality.
      5). Fail to do a simple cost/benefit analysis.

      I really doubt ANY non-smoker looks at a cigarette and thinks, "Oh, hey, I should smoke that so I can get me some nicotine."

    3. Re:The flavor is why teens try it? by tehgeiger · · Score: 1

      Just like kids gravitate to the wide assortment of Pinnacle Vodka flavors right? The "think of teh kids" argument is the standard cop out when some group wants to go nannystate. There does need to be enforcement of IP in ejuice branding, but an outright flavor ban is purely kneejerk, and harmful for the people trying to transition into a less harmful option.

    4. Re:The flavor is why teens try it? by Kielistic · · Score: 1

      Pretty sure the kids know exactly what they are doing. Kids smoke actual cigarettes too- and those taste like shit.

      Do we have to ban all flavoured alcohol as well? Caffeinated drinks? Unhealthy foods?

    5. Re:The flavor is why teens try it? by JackieBrown · · Score: 1

      For point 1 and 2, the advantage to vaping over smoking is you can get nictone free liquids and no one is the wiser.

      Obviously the better solution is for kids to not care about social pressure but I agree that's easier said than done.

    6. Re:The flavor is why teens try it? by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Pretty sure the kids know exactly what they are doing. Kids smoke actual cigarettes too- and those taste like shit.

      Do we have to ban all flavoured alcohol as well? Caffeinated drinks? Unhealthy foods?

      Well, there have been bans on soda cups over 24 oz. in some places.... It's not like I've never heard arguments to ban all these things from those with a specific political persuasion.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    7. Re:The flavor is why teens try it? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!

  14. about fucking time by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    e-cigs/vaping is utterly stupid, and serves absolutely no purpose other than to normalize abusing your lungs in ways they weren't meant to be. if humans were meant to breathe smoke, we'd be dragons, not humans. just say no.

  15. Re: How about this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No, make it mandatory

  16. Addiction, why should I care? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Lets put aside the fact that you should be able to decide what you put in your own body for a moment...
    Why the fuck does it matter if people get addicted to something that's not harmful?
    Literally billions of people are addicted to caffeine but nobody cares because it's not harmful.
    Stop being hypocrites

    1. Re:Addiction, why should I care? by ledow · · Score: 1

      Caffeine addiction is nowhere near as severe as nicotine addiction.

      Literally, grown adults will be reduced to neurotic, screaming, shaking wrecks because they don't get their fix of nicotine. I've never ONCE met a smoker who "could give it up any time" who then actually does. Even ones where they were told it was killing them, where they had bits of their body REMOVED because it had killed them (lung cancer, etc.) and still they kept smoking.

      Caffeine? You get a headache and a bit cranky. You know how I know? I'm addicted to caffeine. I drink 2 litres of caffeinated drink almost every day and have done for... almost 20 years? Caffeine literally has no effect on me any more - I can drink litres of Coke and then just nod off to sleep no problem. It doesn't ever make me alert or hyper, and lack of it even for extended periods (months) doesn't make me grumpy or tired.

      Guess what the first thing to go is when I am low on cash? The caffeine. Guess what the LAST thing a smoker will give up when they're low on cash? Nicotine. Difference being I literally would not notice if I went without caffeine for a month, or stop drinking it. (I drink it because I don't like water, don't enjoy tea/coffee, etc. and Coke/Pepsi is good enough throughout the world to be fairly consistent and always be available).

      I speak as someone who lived with a smoker for my entire childhood, who has lived with smokers as young as 18 (just last year in fact), who has worked closely with smokers in their early twenties, etc. They all say "I could give it up". And then I say "You can't." And then they say "Give up your caffeine then". And I guarantee you that every time they challenge me to give up caffeine for as long as they give up nicotine, I win. Every time. Hands down. Sometimes I double, triple, quadruple the time they gave up just to prove the point.

      The 18-year-old and my work-colleague were POTLESS, they had no money at all. Totally skint. One was on minimum wage, the other was trying to fund his first ever rented apartment with his also-20, also-smoker girlfriend. They endlessly complained about money, they did tricks on the McDonald's kiosks that gave them a full adult meal (in about 10 parts from children's meals!) for ridiculously low prices just so they could eat.

      And yet when I added up their smoking habits it was their largest expenditure of all, with the only exception being rent. More than they spend on food, clothes, their car, or anything else.

      The reason for that is addiction. They can't do without it. Both "tried" in a challenge with me. One lasted literally one day (but then pretended to last two weeks because she was so ashamed, but I'd already seen her smoking and confronted her with it when she tried to collect on the bet!), the other a few weeks on a nicotine patch - literally ripping it off his arm in front of me and throwing a strop in work (a school!) to storm off and have a cigarette.

      Nicotine addiction is powerful, more powerful than anything else normal people do in daily life. It's not on the same scale. And it makes teenagers with no money go without food or clothes or a house so they can burn it into their lungs.

    2. Re:Addiction, why should I care? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The strength of the addiction is a lot stronger for nicotine. Making it unlikely to be anything otehr than a lifelong habit.
      It's pretty reasonable to be wary about letting children make such a long term choice for themselves, especially if their choice is likely to be motivated primarily by the marketing department of the people selling the drug. Nicotine is also known to cause birth defects, so picking up the addiction as a teenager is highly likely to be a bad call for girls who'll then have to deal with withdrawal on top of all the otehr shit that comes with pregnancy if they want children.

      The otehr issue with vaping in particular is that like smoking it doesn't just affect you as it puts a cloud of vapor into the air which anyone nearby breathes. It's an intrinsically asshole-ish hobby unless you confine it to places where everyone present has knowingly agreed to accept it (like a vape den or something). Teaching children not to vape is a subset of teaching them to respect otehr people's boundaries and general good manners.

    3. Re:Addiction, why should I care? by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1
      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    4. Re:Addiction, why should I care? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've been vaping 3mg nictoine (pretty much the lowest version) and am mixing my own liquids from base liquid, nicotine boosters and flavor aroma's.
      I've been vaping for 3 years now and had not smoked before. Compared to some of my friends who did smoke before I tend to vape more than they do (in terms of ml's liquid used a week).

      That said I don't bring my vape to work so the only time I do vape is in the evenings at which point i chain-vape like a steam-train. I have never really noticed a need for nicotine during the day. I don't get anxious or irritated either.

      Hell a while back I was using the wrong bottle of vape liquid base that did not have nicotine pre-mixed into it. I went 0MG nicotine for about half a month before I really took notice.

      I think the addiction to nicotine is way overblown and that other substances in cigarettes play a much bigger part than is said.

    5. Re:Addiction, why should I care? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most smokers don't claim they can "quit anytime" but they often say they desire to quit. Those are not the same things. I quit smoking after doing it for years just by deciding I would not do it any more. Same with drinking I quit later, as I was addicted to that as well. Let me tell you, not smoking took a lot of willpower and was pretty rough for a few days, but so did not drinking, and that had its effects for about a month or more.
      I'll never give up the coffee, but I could quit anytime. I swear.

    6. Re:Addiction, why should I care? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So the fuck what? 18 year olds are adults and should be allowed to do adult things, even if it is detrimental to their health.

  17. Milking It by sycodon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    They do seem to be milking this situation in the most hypocritical way.

    On the one hand, restrict, preach, shame.

    On the other, tax, tax, tax.

    --
    When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    1. Re: Milking It by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      School and ed benefits from taxes. Its senseless

    2. Re:Milking It by gnick · · Score: 2

      Why is suppression through taxation hypocritical? It's one of several methods of discouragement. Hypocritical because people benefit?

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    3. Re:Milking It by sycodon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's like when you don't take all your antibiotics. The infection never really goes away and eventually comes back stronger.

      In this case, they are supposedly trying to suppress it through taxation, but they never tax enough to effectively kill it. Instead, they only tax to the point where there is minimal black market activity. So...keeping it alive. or course they still allow the manufacture and sale of cigarettes.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    4. Re:Milking It by danbert8 · · Score: 1, Redundant

      Why is it that people believe taxing tobacco reduces people's desire for smoking, but that taxing income doesn't reduce people's desire to work?

      --
      Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
    5. Re:Milking It by gnick · · Score: 3, Informative

      Because the consequences of abandoning tobacco are far less dire than the consequences of abandoning employment.

      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    6. Re:Milking It by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      It is not hypocritical if you think it in ways of doing the most political expedient way.

      e-Cigarettes those are the things for those Millennial that everyone seems to hate, and it doesn't help that the jerkiest among them like to adjust their e-Cigarettes to puff vapor at a crazy level. But every generation had Jerks, like those Gen Xers who drive down the streets with cars with the mufflers modified to not muffle, with the bass on the radios shaking the town. Of those Boomers back in the 1960's with their Sex, Drugs and Rock and Roll.

      In comparison the e-Cigarettes, Cell phone using and Avocados are rather sane in comparison.

      But there has been a big push to vilify the Millennial (probably due to being the first generation in America where the white majority is under 50%)

      While Cigarettes are still the recreational drug of the hard worker class white man boomer. Who will vote in the elections.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    7. Re:Milking It by omnichad · · Score: 3, Funny

      with the bass on the radios shaking the town

      You know, that never bothers me. But what does bother me is not bothering to put basic dampening on your trunk. It's the rattling metal that's annoying.

    8. Re:Milking It by religionofpeas · · Score: 2

      Tax even more, and you'll encourage people to smuggle.

    9. Re:Milking It by arth1 · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Why is it that people believe taxing tobacco reduces people's desire for smoking, but that taxing income doesn't reduce people's desire to work?

      That's a false comparison. To make the comparison valid, you'd have to either change the first part to "Why is it that people believe taxing tobacco reduces farmer's desire to grow tobacco" or the second to "but that taxing income doesn't reduce companies desire to hire people".

    10. Re:Milking It by sycodon · · Score: 1

      they only tax to the point where there is minimal black market activity.

      Yes.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    11. Re: Milking It by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      I would posit that suger laden sodas are a much large threat to teen health (and the US population in general)....

      Why not ban flavored sodas? It's being show that sugar and even diet sodas have harmful effects on our teens and population at large, let's ban those flavored items, eh?

      Geez, keep on this track and they'll be banning ALL things flavored that are bad for you, and that list is LOOOOooonggg.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    12. Re:Milking It by cayenne8 · · Score: 1

      Why is suppression through taxation hypocritical? It's one of several methods of discouragement. Hypocritical because people benefit?

      Taxes are a necessary EVIL that funds our government and government services.

      It should NEVER be used to try to manipulate human behavior.....

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    13. Re:Milking It by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      with the bass on the radios shaking the town

      You know, that never bothers me. But what does bother me is not bothering to put basic dampening on your trunk. It's the rattling metal that's annoying.

      Ironic, considering the conversation - back in the day we used rolled-up cigarette packs stuffed behind the license plate to muffle the rattling. Worked really well with soft packs.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    14. Re:Milking It by Comboman · · Score: 1

      Why? So-called "sin taxes" are more effective than say public service advertisements (which cost the government money and thus lead to more taxation for everyone).

      --
      Support Right To Repair Legislation.
    15. Re:Milking It by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The more tobacco is taxed, the more I buy it.. because I don't want to ever live again the situation of being out of tobacco and not having the money for it. If I don't have tobacco I also risk shutting myself in.
      Maybe they'll go to 20 EUR for 40 grams, and I'll still buy it. I'll buy even more before the price hike.

      I used not to have to think about that. Plus, it's a bunch of rich and upper middle class guys deciding this in their offices that believe Demolition Man was a documentary.

    16. Re:Milking It by cyberchondriac · · Score: 1

      And even if they did actually manage to tax the tobacco and e-cig industries into the grave, there would be the sudden shortfall of a huge chunk of taxable income. History shows that no government ever takes that in stride very well, so I wouldn't be surprised if they suddenly applied a huge tax to something else they needed to deem evil, just to keep the cash flow going. The cycle begins.

      --

      Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
    17. Re:Milking It by cyberchondriac · · Score: 2

      Not if you can qualify for welfare and food stamps and your rent is fairly cheap. Not everyone is proud.

      --

      Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
    18. Re:Milking It by omnichad · · Score: 1

      Somehow I never realized it might be the license plates too. That makes it even dumber to not do something about it.

    19. Re:Milking It by Sloppy · · Score: 1

      To me, that sounds like two hands working together pretty effectively. What's hypocritical? Seriously, I don't get it. Taxes are one of the most proven ways to restrict things, aren't they?

      --
      As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    20. Re:Milking It by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The government fucks you as it kills you. Keep sucking that Trump dick and you'll see. Trump has his dick firmly in your ass.

    21. Re:Milking It by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Taxes are an EVIL that funds our government and government services.

      It is ALWAYS used to manipulate human behavior.....

      Fixed that for you.

    22. Re:Milking It by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Why is suppression through taxation hypocritical? It's one of several methods of discouragement. Hypocritical because people benefit?

      Thanks to the "deal" with big tobacco companies, a lot more revenue comes in to state and federal governments for cigarette sales. Banning e-cigarettes is a way to create greater demand for (much more dangerous) cigarettes.

      It's interesting that the British NHS service is lately encouraging the use of e-cigarettes as a harm reduction strategy, while in the US, due to funding streams and corruption, health agencies are producing propaganda claiming that e-cigarettes are just as bad as cigarettes.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    23. Re:Milking It by sycodon · · Score: 1

      The Creature called Government must be fed.

      --
      When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    24. Re:Milking It by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It should NEVER be used to try to manipulate human behavior.....

      Nevertheless, 96% of voters disagree with you, and so taxes and subsidies are used for that. (And whether that's a good idea or a bad one, it sure isn't hypocritical.)

      All you have to do is listen to politicians' campaigns and you will see that they know the voters expect them to use the power of government to micromanage the economy. The debate is always about what, exactly, the voters want them to manage the economy to optimize (at the expense of liberty). If you're one of the rare ones that advocates free markets, enjoy your 4% of the vote, Mr. Johnson.

    25. Re:Milking It by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Banning creates black markets, and takes freedom away from adults.

      America is SOOOO proud of its freedom, and yet, it wants to take freedom away at every turn.

      It is not the governments job to be a nanny state, and protect people from themselves.

      If you must ban something, ban sales to teenagers. Stop there, that's the exact right balance. Any further and you harm citizens and empower criminals.

      (Of course, the whole "addicted teens" thing is just a red herring, designed to win hearts and minds. It is the classic "for the children" argument that robs people of their rationality. The motivation here has nothing to do with actually protecting children, and everything to do with the tobacco lobbies pressuring the government to protect their market!)

    26. Re: Milking It by MightyYar · · Score: 2

      In Philly they taxed soda and it indeed reduced consumption, as expected.

      Cheap beer sales rose.

      Pubic heath win!

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    27. Re: Milking It by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Its always the plates In my experience.

    28. Re:Milking It by mesterha · · Score: 1

      The government accomplishes two goals. First they reduce smoking. Second they generate money that can be used to pay for the extra health costs associated with smoking. Taxation is one approach to reducing an externality. However, I'm not sure how well they are doing with the second one...

      --

      Chris Mesterharm
    29. Re:Milking It by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

      And even if they did actually manage to tax the tobacco and e-cig industries into the grave, there would be the sudden shortfall of a huge chunk of taxable income. History shows that no government ever takes that in stride very well, so I wouldn't be surprised if they suddenly applied a huge tax to something else they needed to deem evil, just to keep the cash flow going. The cycle begins.

      You've identified the motivation to ban vaping: It causes people to buy less cigarettes, thus decreasing the revenue from cigarette taxes and tobacco settlement funds.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    30. Re:Milking It by The-Ixian · · Score: 1

      Wait.... don't cigarette manufacturers have a major stake in e-cigs too? How could they not?

      --
      My eyes reflect the stars and a smile lights up my face.
    31. Re:Milking It by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      But it is NOT in the governments enumerated powers to try to play 'mommy' and try to shape or manipulate the behavior of grown adults.

      Where exactly in the constitution is that? Federal? State?

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    32. Re:Milking It by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you don't f**king read news? e-cigarettes is as much harmful as cigarettes if not more. duh.

    33. Re:Milking It by pr0fessor · · Score: 1

      People abandoning legitimate employment that can be taxed and seized is not unheard of. People who have large child support payments or other debts that might be garnished work and and don't claim their income on taxes or otherwise all the times.

    34. Re:Milking It by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

      Wait.... don't cigarette manufacturers have a major stake in e-cigs too? How could they not?

      Most do, yes. But those sales are not subject to the agreement.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    35. Re:Milking It by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      I don't recommend living on food stamps if you have a choice. It really sucks.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    36. Re:Milking It by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Surely they should first be asking, is it our job to stop people having these products. Just because it is bad for you does that mean they should force us not to have them. I mean do that want to force us to eat vegetables and exercise also? What happened to the land of the free?

      I don't smoke or want to but I don't want to be told I cannot by the government either. When I was a kid that was my Mother's job, not the FDA.

    37. Re:Milking It by Arzaboa · · Score: 1

      Are you suggesting prohibition of cigarettes?

      --
      Prohibition was introduced as a fraud; it has been nursed as a fraud - Roger Q. Mills

    38. Re:Milking It by Arzaboa · · Score: 1

      What data do you have that says that public service advertisements are more effective at deterring people from smoking?

      Group think is a very effective means of deterring some people. If your goal is to stop smoking across the entire population, then, as is it everybody's government, the government should be targeting the different schools of thought for what triggers them.

      People do not think or process things the same. In some areas of the country they drink Coke. In some areas, they drink Pepsi.

      --
      Yesterday - The Beatles

    39. Re:Milking It by jpaine619 · · Score: 1

      Explain how.. Seriously.. You people keep saying Trump is fucking us, so explain how.

      I am absolutely willing to listen to your argument, if you can actually make one.

    40. Re: Milking It by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ALL laws are designed to manipulate the behavior of grown adults. To stop them from murdering. To stop them from stealing. To stop them from cheating. And yes, to stop them from harming themselves and others with poisonous chemicals.

    41. Re:Milking It by Agripa · · Score: 1

      Second they generate money that can be used to pay for the extra health costs associated with smoking.

      Is that like how government lottery sales increased school funding? It is too bad that money is fungible.

    42. Re:Milking It by Agripa · · Score: 1

      Wait.... don't cigarette manufacturers have a major stake in e-cigs too? How could they not?

      The problem is that they don't have a monopoly on e-cigs. It is too easy for others to enter the market.

    43. Re:Milking It by mesterha · · Score: 1

      Is that like how government lottery sales increased school funding? It is too bad that money is fungible.

      Mine was really a normative claim, but the school example is a good example of the reality. I have read articles about conservatives taking "school" money to fund tax cuts leaving the schools budget essentially unchanged. I guess they would argue that it prevented the school budget from being decreased, but it's clearly a scam.

      I guess the real issue with the school example is that people got conned. They were motivated to change the law to increase the money for the schools, and instead it went to tax cuts. For cigarettes, the government spends money on these health issues, and that fungible money comes from somewhere, so accounting wise, it makes sense to say it comes from the tax. Of course, if the tax is greater then the money spent then it's also a scam. However, a lot of money is spent on smoking... The cigarette companies are exploiting a big externality.

      --

      Chris Mesterharm
    44. Re:Milking It by Agripa · · Score: 1

      Is that like how government lottery sales increased school funding? It is too bad that money is fungible.

      Mine was really a normative claim, but the school example is a
      good example of the reality. I have read articles about conservatives
      taking "school" money to fund tax cuts leaving the schools budget
      essentially unchanged. I guess they would argue that it prevented the
      school budget from being decreased, but it's clearly a scam.

      I guess the real issue with the school example is that people got
      conned. They were motivated to change the law to increase the money
      for the schools, and instead it went to tax cuts. For cigarettes, the
      government spends money on these health issues, and that fungible
      money comes from somewhere, so accounting wise, it makes sense to say
      it comes from the tax. Of course, if the tax is greater then the
      money spent then it's also a scam. However, a lot of money is spent
      on smoking... The cigarette companies are exploiting a big
      externality.

      Offhand I do not know of any examples where it did *not* work out this way; the dedicated funds displace general funds which then become political pork.

      Along with that goes my aphorism: what is the difference between sin taxes and regular taxes? There is no difference; everything which is taxed is a sin.

      Compared to the government, the cigarette companies were honest. What is the difference between government and organized crime? Organized crime is more honest and the government expects the sanction of its victims.

    45. Re:Milking It by mesterha · · Score: 1

      Offhand I do not know of any examples where it did *not* work out this way; the dedicated funds displace general funds which then become political pork.

      Yes, I see your point now. It's OK that the dedicated funds are used correctly, but then the general funds are shifted to pork. They really should give the general funds back, but government likes to grow.

      Compared to the government, the cigarette companies were honest. What is the difference between government and organized crime? Organized crime is more honest and the government expects the sanction of its victims.

      Statements like this undercut your argument. The choir might like it, but it's not going to convince others.

      --

      Chris Mesterharm
    46. Re:Milking It by Agripa · · Score: 1

      Compared to the government, the cigarette companies were honest. What
      is the difference between government and organized crime? Organized
      crime is more honest and the government expects the sanction of its
      victims.

      Statements like this undercut your argument. The choir might like
      it, but it's not going to convince others.

      Nobody likes to think have been supporting the bad guys or in this case, a police state. But they have been.

  18. I agree by ilsaloving · · Score: 5, Funny

    I have to say I agree with this.

    There's nothing worse than smelling donuts or cotton candy, and you turn the corner thinking "Mmmm I'm gonna treat myself to something tasty!"

    But no... It's just Brad and his cloud of LIES.

    1. Re:I agree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hmm, I wonder if you could use nicotine-free flavoured ecigs as a diet aid. If I can transition from real donuts to vaped ones that would massively reduce my calorie intake!

    2. Re:I agree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We have this one guy who vapes a sickly-sweet concoction that smells like the perfume a high-school girl would wear. Super-sickly-sweet-strawberry. BLECH!

  19. Good people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Who's done more research than the good people at the American E-Cig Industry? They say its harmless. Why would they lie? If you're dead, you can't smoke.

    Case closed.

  20. How about just ones containing nicotine? by Ruedii · · Score: 1

    Shouldn't this only apply to ones containing nicotine?

    Just a thought.

    1. Re:How about just ones containing nicotine? by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Yea, I'm inclined to agree that any sort of addictive component needs to be limited to adult purchase only and that concentration limits need to be enforced on manufacturers. The question is two fold, what addictive components will we allow and what age will be allowed to buy.

      Until the specifics of the rules are decided, it's hard to know if the FDA is being reasonable or not.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
  21. Shut Up, Bigot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You just want them banned because black people use them. Fuck off.

  22. Yes, please just ban the damned things by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 0

    From the first time I ever read about these I thought "drug delivery device", and my opinion hasn't changed. I'd also prefer our species evolved past self-destructive behaviors like smoking, too, but I guess it has to be baby steps, and nipping yet another needless vice in the bud is not a bad thing. Face it, people: it's just being leveraged into yet another way to addict people to something. Evil, wrong, bad, far from harmless. Whine and complain about my opinion all you like but if you're a smoker or vape user all you're doing is sounding like every chronic drug user on the planet, defending your addiction. Don't bother I won't take you seriously.

    1. Re:Yes, please just ban the damned things by drinkypoo · · Score: 0

      Whine and complain about my opinion all you like but if you're a smoker or vape user all you're doing is sounding like every chronic drug user on the planet, defending your addiction.

      Whine and complain about drug use all you like but if you're calling for drugs to be banned because you don't like them all you're doing is sounding like every other fascist on the planet, defending your fascism.

      If you want to ban their use in public places, I'll have more sympathy for your point of view. Nobody should have to breathe in other people's vape exhales whether they're harmful or not. That shit is gross. If you were going to ban flavored vapes it would make more sense to ban them on the basis that the flavor and smell crap they add to them might be toxic than on any other basis. (Most perfumes are toxic...)

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:Yes, please just ban the damned things by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 0

      If they're marketing them to kids and teenagers (which are still kids judgement-wise) then they need to be introduced to Monsieur Guillotine because they're EVIL. And before you sperg out all over the place more I'm not talking about BANNING ALL THE THINGS just the gods-be-damned vaping bullshit. Also fuck you.

    3. Re:Yes, please just ban the damned things by Headw1nd · · Score: 2

      Wow, you don't seem to be able to handle disagreement very well.

    4. Re:Yes, please just ban the damned things by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, FUCK YOU. You have the psuedo-intellectual air of someone who needs a good (or any) fucking. You are a "gods-be-damned" moron and you have the temerity to cast aspersions on people with real medical conditions like aspergers? And you want the death penalty for people who don't deliberately market them to kids but they get purchased by them anyway? Like real cigarettes?

      FUCK YOU, YOU WORTHLESS CUNT. I HOPE YOU DIE IN A FIRE, PAINFULLY.

    5. Re:Yes, please just ban the damned things by swb · · Score: 1

      Humans will always find drugs appealing as long as we have a dopamine reward system, which I'd guess exists precisely because it aids in preserving the species -- rewarding reproduction, eating, etc.

      The problem with humans is we've figured out how to trigger a dopamine response without the "necessary, species-preserving" actions but I guess it's part of the price you pay for cognitive self-awareness.

    6. Re:Yes, please just ban the damned things by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

      Hilarious. You should try for a career in standup comedy.

    7. Re:Yes, please just ban the damned things by sjames · · Score: 1

      Your vices, on the other hand are God given rights, amireight?

    8. Re:Yes, please just ban the damned things by Mal-2 · · Score: 1

      Other animals figure out how to get high (like eating fermenting fruit), they just aren't particularly good at producing their own supplies on demand. They also aren't as good at passing along the knowledge of what they're doing and why.

      --
      How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.
    9. Re:Yes, please just ban the damned things by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      , amireight?

      You meant "amireich"

  23. FDA Cigarette Agents Are Scared by BrendaEM · · Score: 0

    The FDA kept cigarettes legal and plentiful, and now ecigs are some kind of emergency?

    --
    https://www.youtube.com/c/BrendaEM
    1. Re:FDA Cigarette Agents Are Scared by ledow · · Score: 1

      Cigarettes are not legal for kids. Not anywhere civilised.

      Nor should e-cigarettes with addictive components be but the law was slow to catch up.

      Nicotine dependence isn't something to encourage in children especially if they are being given the message "this stuff doesn't harm you" which is what e-cigarettes are claiming (though give it 30 years and that might turn out to be a mistake).

      I don't think you can argue that children shouldn't be consuming something known to be highly addictive, which shouldn't be available to them, even if the end-result isn't directly damaging to their lungs.

      And, no, sugar etc. isn't addictive, and even alcohol isn't nearly as addictive and is regulated for minors just as tough.

    2. Re:FDA Cigarette Agents Are Scared by Whibla · · Score: 1

      Cigarettes are not legal for kids. Not anywhere civilised.

      And neither is vaping, not where I live in the UK, nor in the USA.

      Nor should e-cigarettes with addictive components be but the law was slow to catch up.

      Unfortunately true: it took until 2016 'til the FDA started regulating them. This article is surprisingly balanced and informative when it comes to the benefits and downsides in the vaping / smoking debate.

      Nicotine dependence isn't something to encourage in children especially if they are being given the message "this stuff doesn't harm you" which is what e-cigarettes are claiming (though give it 30 years and that might turn out to be a mistake).

      While I completely agree with the first part of this statement the second part is only partially true. And, despite what the manufacturers might claim, most governments and health professionals are distinctly more circumspect when discussing vaping: Vaping can be an effective method in cessation of smoking; vaping is less harmful than smoking cigarettes.

      I don't think you can argue that children shouldn't be consuming something known to be highly addictive, which shouldn't be available to them, even if the end-result isn't directly damaging to their lungs.

      And, no, sugar etc. isn't addictive, and even alcohol isn't nearly as addictive and is regulated for minors just as tough.

      People can argue all sorts of shit that's clearly wrong. It's one of the great wonders of the social world in which we live. As to whether sugar is addictive I guess that would somewhat depend on how one defines addiction - tbh I couldn't care less one way or another. It is, or perhaps I should say more than small quantities are, harmful to us however. For all that though I prefer the gentle nudge of taxation to a heavy handed ban for any of these things - I just wish more companies had the stomach to continue to manufacture their soft drinks with sugar and charge the higher price: in the UK now virtually every 'soda' is, for me, undrinkable, as they all contain vile tasting artificial sweeteners rather than sugar. I'd have happily (ok, that's a lie - I'd have grudgingly) paid the extra price, instead I've just stopped buying them - not that the loss of sales of one to two dozen cans a year is going to put anyone out of business. Ah well, at least I will be able to point to this as an example of a government nudge that had the 'desired' effect despite the personal annoyance. </end digression>

    3. Re:FDA Cigarette Agents Are Scared by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 1

      Cigarettes are not legal for kids. Not anywhere civilised. Nor should e-cigarettes with addictive components be but the law was slow to catch up.

      I think it's you that has some catching-up to do. From August of 2016: "Vape shops cannot give free samples to customers or sell to people younger than 18, under the new regulations. Merchants will be required to ask for identification from customers who appear to be under the age of 27."

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
  24. How does this compare? by Rande · · Score: 1

    Okay, you have 2million kids now using e-cigs.
    How does that compare to before e-cigs were available? How many kids were cig smokers in the past?

    1. Re:How does this compare? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, we've known they were bad for decades now - why is a stupid alternative even allowed on the market? If it is 'to help quit smoking' then require a prescription, then 5 years later ban the entire fucking nicotine market.

    2. Re: How does this compare? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      2 million kids that have tried it is a lot different than 2 million kids that regularly use them but makes for a less vitriolic moral panic

    3. Re: How does this compare? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't let facts get in the way of a good rant!

      To the OP: 2 million? [Citation Needed], sounds like made-up random bullshit to me.

  25. Re:Why have nocotine at all? re: flavour by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    RJR tried it in their Camel line, and if I remember correctly from my days smoking filter cigarettes, I only liked only one of the flavours. This was in the late 1980's, before they got banned. Of course, I just kept smoking my Pall Mall non-filtered, which I still do to this day.

    FYI, a carton used to be $10 and is now $80. I could not afford my 5 pack per day habit today, because I only make 5x what I made in 1990.

  26. An illiberal line of thinking... by mi · · Score: 0

    A typical Illiberal line of thinking:

    1. I would not want this, therefore it needs to be made illegal.
    2. I would want this, therefore it needs to be made mandatory.

    Any time you think, a new law/regulation should be put in place, check, whether your reasoning falls into one of the above. And, if it does, shut up and take a cold shower.

    Examples include:

    1. Narcotics and alcohol (including e-cigarettes), gambling, prostitution, tattoos and piercing, high-volume toilets and showers, "gas-guzzling" cars, "hate" speech, helmets and seat-belts, consumption of certain foods (from fat to sugar).
    2. "Sensitivity" training, various trade-licenses, consumption of certain foods.
    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    1. Re:An illiberal line of thinking... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure everyone should be free to do/take whatever they want. However, anything that voluntarily effects your positive health should cause you to lose health insurance, and you have to pay those bills yourself. You should be perfectly free to be self destructive, just not free to be a drain on societies resources when you do it.

    2. Re:An illiberal line of thinking... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My reasoning behind a favoring a mandate for seat belts lies with the possibility of someone losing control of a vehicle due to being displaced from the seat in a relatively minor upset. I strongly view it as a "greater good" type of issue. I also don't want some derp from the back seat to wind up in my lap in a collision (or sudden braking), as that would similarly result in potential loss of control. It's not that I want this to be the case; it would be very convenient if cars and roadways for safe enough to obviate the need for seat belts (buses are extremely heavy, have a high passenger deck, and usually the dominant force in a collision), but I'm convinced they should probably be used for the foreseeable future.

    3. Re: An illiberal line of thinking... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      so you have decided to stop driving and eating red meat then?

    4. Re:An illiberal line of thinking... by mi · · Score: 1

      anything that voluntarily effects your positive health should cause you to lose health insurance

      That is — or should be — between you and the health insurance company.

      You should be perfectly free to be self destructive, just not free to be a drain on societies resources when you do it

      This is exactly why society must never accept the responsibility of taking care of you. Because, as you demonstrate, with the "taking care" comes the control. If Donald Trump is responsible for your health care, he should, of course, be able to tell you to stop eating red meat and fine you for not exercising.

      In other words, yes, Collectivism is detrimental to personal freedoms — and why I refer to Collectivisim-proponents (Socialists, Communists, and Fascists alike) as Illiberals.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
  27. Re:Why have nocotine at all? re: flavour by Pubstar · · Score: 1

    Camel had flavored cigarettes well into the mid 2000s. My friend started smoking after I left a tin of Camel Cremas in his car. They had other ones like Dark Chocolate Mint, Izmir Stingers (sweet and sour), High Ball (whiskey flavored), one that was Orange and Chocolate.
    They were in some weird line that only came in tins - It was this line

  28. Land of the Free.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Heh, I don't know how you Yanks can still say that with a straight face!

  29. Ban nicotine in non-medical products? by skovnymfe · · Score: 0

    Done?

  30. Just ban OTC nicotine in all forms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nicotine is an addictive drug that should be regulated under Schedule 3N and require a prescription as part of a smoking cessation program, that is controlled by a licensed practitioner.

    Nobody should be able to buy addictive drugs over the counter.

    1. Re:Just ban OTC nicotine in all forms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Caffeine, diphenhydramine. Two more potentially addictive substances; ban them OTC too?

  31. Payoff by . . . ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How about restricting sales to minors instead, genius? I don't see anyone banning cigarettes or flavored beer, of which there are hundreds at this point, which leads me to believe there's something else going on here.

  32. Natural Selection by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why is everyone always trying to defeat natural selection? It's as if they hate nature and want to tank the human genome.

  33. Where is Donald Trump when you need him? by yanestra · · Score: 1

    Could have installed a useless puppet at the head of FDA too.

  34. Fuck you by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    you just want to be a dick

    He's the dick? YOU are the one who is clutchin pearls and thinkin about the children, you sick fuck. Anything you conservatives don't approve of MUST be banned. And you'll do it all the while screamin FREEDUMB and claiming the libs made you. Fuck off and die.

  35. Follow the money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Anyone care to guess who's money is lining his pockets? Wouldn't surprise me at all if big tobacco was.

  36. Govts miss that tax money by TJHook3r · · Score: 1

    All those lovely tax dollars rolling in and the wonderful side effect of mainly poorer people dying earlier, before they become a burden on the state! No wonder govts have never banned cigarettes!

  37. Data Point by ElizabethGreene · · Score: 1

    My son attends a public high school in Murfreesboro Tennessee. Of his circle of friends 2/3s have tried a Juul, and 1/3 are current users.

    Quoting him, "They say it looks like a USB stick, so if your parents see it you don't get in trouble."

    Congratulations Nicotine industry, you've figured out a way to hook another generation. Well done.

  38. Banning stuff sends the wrong message by Baki · · Score: 1

    It suggests that everything harmful is banned, I.e. everything not banned is not...

    People, including. parents and teachers educating and raising children, should take their own responsibility. Teens should start with taking responsibility for their own future and health as they grow older. Trusting the government to ban all harmful things is hopeless and counterproductive.