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Linux Community To Adopt New Code of Conduct (kernel.org)

Following Linus Torvalds' public apology for his behavior over the years, the Linux Community said it will be adopting a new "Code of Conduct", which pledges to make "participation in our project and our community a harassment-free experience for everyone, regardless of age, body size, disability, ethnicity, sex characteristics, gender identity and expression, level of experience, education, socio-economic status, nationality, personal appearance, race, religion, or sexual identity and orientation."

357 of 780 comments (clear)

  1. Oh thank god by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    Just imagine how quickly kernel technology will advance now that the mailing list is a designated safe space for special snowflakes.

    1. Re:Oh thank god by CoolVibe · · Score: 4, Funny

      Patch rejected because the use of pointers is offensive. Pointing is rude, you know?

    2. Re:Oh thank god by martiniturbide · · Score: 1, Insightful

      A Conduct Code does not means you had to accept source code from everybody just to don't hurt people feelings. I think it is to don't treat people bad when they do mistakes and don't enjoy being a dick making fun or labeling people because of their errors. I know this is slashdot and it is almost a rule to be a dick on replies, but check more about the wheaton's law: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes...

    3. Re: Oh thank god by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Yes more must be better. No harm can come from code by committee. Especially when the main concern is your feelings.

    4. Re:Oh thank god by CoolVibe · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Decisions, decisions. Protect fragile ego's from entitled children and get nothing done, or state things like they are and/or come off as a jerk in the process, while getting shit fixed... I'll take the latter.

    5. Re:Oh thank god by CoolVibe · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Or, grow a skin and fix your damn code.

    6. Re:Oh thank god by cybe · · Score: 4, Funny

      Decisions, decisions. Protect fragile **egos** from entitled children and get nothing done, or state things like they are and/or come off as a jerk in the process, while getting shit fixed... I'll take the latter.

      Just fixing shit, don't get offended now.

    7. Re:Oh thank god by Crashmarik · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Or, more contributors will stick around because now they don't have to deal with abusive dicks like you

      Someone thinks because they wear a man bun , a fedora, and attended a couple month how to code camp they are actually skilled and knowledgeable.

      I am sure the project is going to love having more people working on it

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      Hopefully Linus is taking a break to hone his language skills so he can better destroy truly annoying people that have no business being near the kernel.

    8. Re:Oh thank god by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      Probably faster, because there will be a lot less trolling and more focus on the technical issue at hand vs Alpha Geek Chest Thumping.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    9. Re:Oh thank god by Reservoir+Penguin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well how many? And how many bullshit ideas were accepted because criticizing == triggering or worse denying "lived-in experience"?

      --
      US-UK-Israel: The real Axis of Evil
    10. Re:Oh thank god by Crashmarik · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Your argument fails in the fact perhaps that guy with the man bun or a fedora and attended those code camps are actually a brilliant person who can really contribute.

      LOL

      Or you do want Linux coded by all guys with a short hair cut, suites, and has PHDs.

      Have. But you can haz cheezberger

      Coding is 25% intelligence and 75% effort.

      For bad programmers.

      What's really amazing is that you were too stupid to understand what the Fred Brooks software engineering links meant but you just tried to lecture someone who has been at it, longer than you have been alive.

      Yeah I see Linux doing real well now / sarcasm

    11. Re:Oh thank god by lgw · · Score: 1

      This is the kernel. A brilliant idea is below worthless if the code has a bug.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    12. Re: Oh thank god by NikeHerc · · Score: 1

      Slashdot stand behind this decision, keep all snowflakes out of the workplace.

      ftfy

      --
      Circle the wagons and fire inward. Entropy increases without bounds.
    13. Re: Oh thank god by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      False dichotomy. You do realize its absolutely possible to solve problems without being a dick, right? Instead of "your are a fucking idiot. Your patches are always shit. fix it NOW!" you can just say "your patches are unacceptably buggy. If you don't fix this quick and start submitting better tested patches im going stop accepting your commits." It achieves the same end result but you don't come across as an abusive ass.

      Believe it or not, but abuse rarely results in a better outcome. Just look at the Alen Cox tty thing.

    14. Re:Oh thank god by EllisDees · · Score: 1

      >Coding is 25% intelligence and 75% effort.

      Lol. Nope. Just plain nope. Unintelligent people can't code anything beyond the trivial. I doubt anyone of even slightly below average intelligence can even comprehend how to create a program no matter how hard they work at it.

      --
      -- Give me ambiguity or give me something else!
    15. Re: Oh thank god by Fwipp · · Score: 1

      Bugs are unfixable, and code review doesn't exist.

    16. Re: Oh thank god by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How many brilliant ideas were ignored because the person suggesting it was an asshole?

      Exponentially more than the meek argument.

    17. Re:Oh thank god by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

      Doubt it. Instead, you get rejections followed by a shitload of bloated egos arguing ad nauseum about the rejection, with no adult in the room to put a stop to it in a clear and concise manner that leaves no wiggle-room.

      You know, like corporate development happens these days...

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    18. Re:Oh thank god by atriusofbricia · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Your argument fails in the fact perhaps that guy with the man bun or a fedora and attended those code camps are actually a brilliant person who can really contribute.

      Or you do want Linux coded by all guys with a short hair cut, suites, and has PHDs.

      Coding is 25% intelligence and 75% effort. If someone is willing to do the effort then they should be able to contribute, if their code is crap, then don't put it in. As their current contribution didn't meet the standards needed for this deployment.
      They should feel free to learn and try again, perhaps the next time they may have something brilliant.

      Good coding is a combination of experience and intelligence with a side of knowledge.

      If you think people won't be afraid to openly criticize code if it comes from *PROTECTED CLASS* when one is a member of *NOT-PROTECTED CLASS* then you've clearly not been paying attention to this part of the world.

      It'd be nice to be wrong with this. It'd be nice for the SJWs not to eat this. It'd be nice if merit and not other considerations was the only determining factor. It'd be nice. It'd also be surprising

      --
      I was raised on the command line, bitch

      "Nemo me impune lacesset"

    19. Re:Oh thank god by techsoldaten · · Score: 5, Informative

      None.

      Linux is what it is as a result of the environment through which it arose.

      There are no incredible ideas that went unnoticed because someone chose not to participate. There are very few original ideas about kernel development to begin with, inspiration comes mostly from hardware-side innovations that need to be incorporated. The idea that some meek, solitary genius would be the only one to notice is ridiculous.

    20. Re:Oh thank god by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      The world isn't a nice place.
      But why do you try so hard to keep it a not nice place.
      Being a jerk to others isn't tough love, and places where people donate their time and talents shouldn't be a war zone where their existence is argued.

      A Meek individual may be more then able to explain their idea in an open public forum. However if you push too hard, people will just not be part of the group and go elsewhere. Say Apple or Microsoft.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    21. Re:Oh thank god by iMadeGhostzilla · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If he is too afraid to speak he can not be brilliant -- he hasn't had a chance to achieve brilliance without engaging with others and correcting, or standing his ground, based on their feedback.

    22. Re: Oh thank god by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Exactly, the snowflakes need to understand that criticizing their idea doesn't mean that they as a person are being abused.

      But too many people these days think they've been insulted just because someone doesn't agree with them.

    23. Re: Oh thank god by lgw · · Score: 2

      The comment Linus famously makes are in the context of code reviews, not just out of the blue. He gets passionate when people claim something isn't a bug, or isn't important.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    24. Re:Oh thank god by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not at all. A lot of the best parts of the kernel started out buggy and were then improved from prototype level by a number of different people. Very few parts were written by one person and delivered as a flawless fait accompli patch.

      In fact the original CoC noted that almost no patches are accepted first time without changes. And Linus has reversed direction a number of times on things he realized he was wrong about.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    25. Re:Oh thank god by Ignatius · · Score: 2

      Ideas, even good ones, are one dime a dozen. With a project like the Linux Kernel, it's all about the quality of work and the minimization of errors. The last thing you want is even more dudes voicing ideas without without being willing or able to back them up by excellent code.

      So the better question is: How many bad ideas, unmaintainable code and bugs have been spared us, because a not so brilliant individual was too afraid to bring it up in fear of facing bulling and ridicule?

      Fear of shame and ridicule is a powerful motivator - and an effective filter: Either you put in the extra effort, polish your contribution and double and triple check your code - or you shut up.

      And also: How much pride can you take in praise from someone, who is "positive" about everything, regardless of quality.

    26. Re: Oh thank god by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      These boring trolls spew anti-Trump comments in literally every slashdot post ... yawn. I think they think it's funny, but it's really predictable and boring and tiresome.

    27. Re:Oh thank god by blackomegax · · Score: 1

      Linux is a creation of communists anyway, why does this shock anyone? You want to keep in line, use windows. It's proper authoritarian!

    28. Re:Oh thank god by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      And how many bullshit ideas were accepted because criticizing == triggering

      False dichotomy. Not being an asshole when someone tries to participate doesn't mean you have to accept everything they submit. So, the answer to your question would be ZERO "bullshit ideas" were accepted. They just aren't thrown back into the face of someone, with a dose of profanity added, who is honestly trying to help but didn't do everything exactly the right way.

      If you are a project manager and accept bullshit code into your project for any reason then you are a bad project manager. If you cannot find some way to help your subordinates grow and become better then you are a bad leader. No, yelling at them and telling them to "shut the fuck up" is not how you lead them.

    29. Re:Oh thank god by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      There are no incredible ideas that went unnoticed because someone chose not to participate.

      I have a rock on my front porch that I bought for $3000 to keep tigers away. I've never had a tiger on my front porch. See how good the rock works? I'll point out now that this is a standard analogy for your kind of claim, not a real rock that I paid actual money for. Just sayin', since last time I used this the person I replied to missed the analogy completely.

      The idea that some meek, solitary genius would be the only one to notice is ridiculous.

      Every software project, Linux included, has a limited amount to volunteers donating a limited amount of time, and not everything that should be done is being done. Need proof? Why are there ever increasing version numbers? If Linux didn't have resource limitations then version 1.0 would have been complete and bug free from day one.

      While it may be rare for a "meek, solitary genius" to be the only one to notice a problem or potential enhancement, it is quite likely that said genius may be the only one who has the time available or current understanding of the problem to deal with it. If you scare him away by being an arrogant asshole to other volunteers, you will lose that volunteer and even maybe believe that the problem or enhancement isn't of interest to anyone because nobody wants to face public excoriation for bringing it up.

    30. Re:Oh thank god by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      If he is too afraid to speak he can not be brilliant -- he hasn't had a chance to achieve brilliance without engaging with others and correcting, or standing his ground, based on their feedback.

      I admit I have not read Stephen Hawking's biography, so I must have missed hearing about his brilliance being created by all the times someone said "you're a stupid git, roll your ass back to the defective asylum you moron" as a means of getting "feedback".

      I'm sorry, but people can be brilliant without having to go through public ridicule and harassment. They can be brilliant and also be smart enough to know that being abused and harassed in public isn't a productive use of their abilities. If you are personally used to working in a hostile environment then perhaps you don't recognize how many people choose not to.

    31. Re:Oh thank god by iMadeGhostzilla · · Score: 1

      If someone had said to Hawking "your hypothesis is stupid, it doesn't have the basic math to support it and you could never construct an experiment to falsify it, go back to the drawing board", and if it was warranted, then it would have been good feedback. If it wasn't, Hawking would have been able to argue why that is not so.

      Linus never insulted the person, just what they did.

    32. Re:Oh thank god by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      If someone had said to Hawking "your hypothesis is stupid, it doesn't have the basic math to support it and you could never construct an experiment to falsify it, go back to the drawing board", and if it was warranted, then it would have been good feedback.

      Other than calling the hypothesis "stupid" -- a hypothesis cannot be stupid, it can be wrong or easily disproven -- I agree.

      But saying to him "shut the fuck up" is not "good feedback", nor is any of the other abusive behavior I mentioned.

      Linus never insulted the person, just what they did.

      The CoC being discussed here covers something other than collegial debate, which telling someone to "shut the fuck up" is not. And the claim was that someone cannot be "brilliant" without going through a test of fire, which is a lot more than what you mentioned. Saying a hypothesis is "stupid" is, indeed, talking about the source of the hypothesis for the reason I already stated, as is calling an idea "insane". Calling an idea "insane" is shorthand for calling the person who promoted the idea insane. "That idea demonstrates a lack of intelligence" (for "stupid") or "that idea demonstrates insanity". That's personal.

    33. Re: Oh thank god by jd · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The standards are clear. Code is to be judged by quality and not by submitter.

      I'm guessing the shrill screams are from those who can't compete on merit.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    34. Re:Oh thank god by iMadeGhostzilla · · Score: 1

      No, you cannot cross that line. A hyper sensitive person can take personally any and all criticism, and then you can't say anything to him. That treatment is only reserved for children. In my book, you can call any "thing" -- something the person did or made -- all sorts of insults, especially if you have a track record of delivering results, you only do not disparage the living soul that is the person, so to speak, because it is outside of our domain. Which is exactly what Linus did.

      A hypothesis/theory can be stupid. A harsher way to say it is that it is "not even wrong."

    35. Re:Oh thank god by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      yelling at them and telling them to "shut the fuck up" is not how you lead them

      That's clear enough. Now, is there any way that Linus could have made his point about not breaking kernel interfaces, just as memorably, without saying "Mauro, SHUT THE FUCK UP!". (By the way, Mauro is a well known and respected maintainer and educator.)

      How about: "WE DO NOT BREAK USER SPACE." Indeed, not as memorable, but also not harming Linus' reputation, a net win.

      Linus could surely have employed his amazing gift for language and wit to express his distress equally as clearly without crossing the line into abuse. He could have demanded that this text be added to patch submission guidelines. He could have used one of his entertaining analogies. He could have done all kinds of things besides that.

      I strongly support Linus' intention to uphold a fundamental Linux design rule, but strongly disagree with how he went about it. And now it is clear the Linus agrees with that view. What other methods are available to make a point strongly and memorably? How about Lincoln's Gettysburg Address... no personal attacks there, no abuse, no cussing, and yet memorable all the same.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    36. Re:Oh thank god by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      No, you cannot cross that line. A hyper sensitive person can take personally any and all criticism,

      I don't know what line you think I'm crossing. Of course hyper-sensitive people can take things personally. That is not a reason to justify arrogant, abusive behaviour.

      In my book, you can call any "thing" -- something the person did or made -- all sorts of insults,

      Of course you can. And when you call an idea "stupid" you are insulting the person. "Stupid" means "demonstrating a lack of intelligence". The idea cannot have the intelligence, only the person who created it.

      You don't have to call an idea stupid to say it isn't valid. Civil people can manage to do it, I'm sure that software developers can learn how to do it, too.

    37. Re: Oh thank god by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      What exactly is "progressive society" progressing towards? It seems to say one thing while doing the opposite

    38. Re:Oh thank god by iMadeGhostzilla · · Score: 1

      It sounds like you are assuming that civility always yields the best results. A good counterexample is Steve Jobs, but really Linus Torvalds too. Bill Gates also. The trick is only, people will only tolerate your incivility if you consistently deliver top quality.

      Arguably Donald Trump wouldn't be President either if he were civil. :-)

    39. Re: Oh thank god by TimMD909 · · Score: 1

      A person wearing a fedora is role playing RedHat. A person wearing homemade clothes is Slackware or Gentoo. A person randomly hugging people is Ubuntu. Any person too paranoid to show up is doing BSD. Anyone with a manbun filling his headphone jacks with epoxy is a Mac OS fan. Anyone in a suit trying desperately to be relevant to a conversation is Microsoft.

    40. Re:Oh thank god by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

      Lol you're typically the type of person I would not want on my team! You think you're that good, cowboy? I'v seen your type. They tend to not be bothered to pick up their own shit and blame others for the mess. Guess what, most of the time coding is in fact a SOCIAL activity. You don't code only by yourself for yourself.

      Really ? Says the man who posts that AC.

    41. Re: Oh thank god by astrofurter · · Score: 1

      Social Just-us Terrorists are NOT communists. Real commies want nothing whatsoever to do with those running dogs of the financial oligarchy.

    42. Re:Oh thank god by Krishnoid · · Score: 1

      If you think people won't be afraid to openly criticize code if it comes from *PROTECTED CLASS* when one is a member of *NOT-PROTECTED CLASS* then you've clearly not been paying attention to this part of the world.

      I have been trying to skirt around it, but it seems my primary alternatives are Python and (ugh) Java.

    43. Re: Oh thank god by Millennium · · Score: 1

      Let me guess: no one wanted you around in school because you were creepy, and you thought that was bullying. Do I have it right?

    44. Re: Oh thank god by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Exactly, the snowflakes need to understand that criticizing their idea doesn't mean that they as a person are being abused.

      And the angry anti-SJW crowds who label everyone they disagree with need to understand that just because something is "criticism" doesn't mean that it isn't also abuse or outright dickish behaviour.

      You are right, and you are wrong. The answer lies somewhere inbetween the vocal extremems that have infested both sides.

    45. Re:Oh thank god by sad_ · · Score: 1

      trolling in the LKML? seriously...

      --
      On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
    46. Re:Oh thank god by maxbuzz · · Score: 1

      Code rejected do to homophobic and misogynist microagressions.

    47. Re: Oh thank god by zabbey · · Score: 1

      Then they'll reject my awesome code if I call someone a fag or retard? Or will they still use my code but reject me?

    48. Re:Oh thank god by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      It sounds like you are assuming that civility always yields the best results.

      It only sounds that way because you want it to sound that way.

      And your inappropriate reference based on TDS has been noted.

    49. Re: Oh thank god by lsatenstein · · Score: 1

      Are there any bets that his wife and kids laid down the law. Clean up your vocabulary or else use sleep alone.

      --
      Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
    50. Re:Oh thank god by Agent0013 · · Score: 1

      And how many bullshit ideas were accepted because criticizing == triggering

      False dichotomy. Not being an asshole when someone tries to participate doesn't mean you have to accept everything they submit. So, the answer to your question would be ZERO "bullshit ideas" were accepted. They just aren't thrown back into the face of someone, with a dose of profanity added, who is honestly trying to help but didn't do everything exactly the right way.

      If you are a project manager and accept bullshit code into your project for any reason then you are a bad project manager. If you cannot find some way to help your subordinates grow and become better then you are a bad leader. No, yelling at them and telling them to "shut the fuck up" is not how you lead them.

      The mere fact of not accepting their code submission is evidence of the lack of respect. Obviously the code must be excellent, because they are awesome. The only reason it would be rejected is because of racist or sexist reasons. Any and all rejection of code is only for evil intention-ed reasons.

      --

      -- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
    51. Re:Oh thank god by silanea · · Score: 1

      Every software project, Linux included, has a limited amount to volunteers donating a limited amount of time [...]

      The Linux kernel has not been a volunteer-run project for many years. The last survey I remember from 2015 had volunteers at 16% or so, the rest was paid. Frankly, looking at the Linux landscape the chance that some genius will pop up unexpectedly as a volunteer as opposed to come in on a company's payroll looks pretty slim to me. Kernel evolution happens in the hardware companies and the distributors.

      --
      Rudolf Hess edited Mein Kampf. He was the very first grammar nazi.
    52. Re: Oh thank god by jd · · Score: 1

      The latter. Which is why Linus is taking time off (but will doubtless still provide code).

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    53. Re:Oh thank god by sexconker · · Score: 1

      I'm guessing exactly zero.

    54. Re: Oh thank god by sexconker · · Score: 1

      When you're fixing too many bugs in code submitted by a certain group, the code of conduct prevents you from fixing those bugs.
      Anyone in that group can complain that you're treating them differently and they'll win, and you'll be ejected.
      The quality of the code or the factual correctness of any change to or rejection of code doesn't matter. If a certain group isn't represented to the the degree they feel they should be, you will increase their representation or you will be removed.

    55. Re:Oh thank god by sexconker · · Score: 1

      A Conduct Code does not means you had to accept source code from everybody just to don't hurt people feelings.

      It does. If someone of a special snowflake group gets offended that their code is rejected / changed / has a not-nice comment added / whatever, you're fucking done. People will trawl through changes to find any data point matching the narrative that a certain group was disproportionately hit with code rejections or whatever else. They'll cherry pick the fuck out of everything to get one data point to stab you to death with. You will not be able to refute it by showing the larger trend wherein the data point is noise, nor will you be able to argue that the code was factually bad. You will be shouted down, kicked out, and harassed.

    56. Re:Oh thank god by KingBenny · · Score: 1

      let's not forget to remove offensive terms first .... !!! i mean "master" and "slave" what can be more important than that ? this is truly the end of days isnt it ?

      --
      Free speech was meant to be free for all... how can anyone grow up in a nanny state ?
  2. Code of Conduct - Exact Text by sinij · · Score: 5, Informative

    Our Pledge
    ===========

    In the interest of fostering an open and welcoming environment, we as
    contributors and maintainers pledge to making participation in our project and
    our community a harassment-free experience for everyone, regardless of age, body
    size, disability, ethnicity, sex characteristics, gender identity and
    expression, level of experience, education, socio-economic status, nationality,
    personal appearance, race, religion, or sexual identity and orientation.

    Our Standards
    =============

    Examples of behavior that contributes to creating a positive environment
    include:

    * Using welcoming and inclusive language
    * Being respectful of differing viewpoints and experiences
    * Gracefully accepting constructive criticism
    * Focusing on what is best for the community
    * Showing empathy towards other community members


    Examples of unacceptable behavior by participants include:

    * The use of sexualized language or imagery and unwelcome sexual attention or
    advances
    * Trolling, insulting/derogatory comments, and personal or political attacks
    * Public or private harassment
    * Publishing others’ private information, such as a physical or electronic
    address, without explicit permission
    * Other conduct which could reasonably be considered inappropriate in a
    professional setting


    Our Responsibilities
    ====================

    Maintainers are responsible for clarifying the standards of acceptable behavior
    and are expected to take appropriate and fair corrective action in response to
    any instances of unacceptable behavior.

    Maintainers have the right and responsibility to remove, edit, or reject
    comments, commits, code, wiki edits, issues, and other contributions that are
    not aligned to this Code of Conduct, or to ban temporarily or permanently any
    contributor for other behaviors that they deem inappropriate, threatening,
    offensive, or harmful.

    Scope
    =====

    This Code of Conduct applies both within project spaces and in public spaces
    when an individual is representing the project or its community. Examples of
    representing a project or community include using an official project e-mail
    address, posting via an official social media account, or acting as an appointed
    representative at an online or offline event. Representation of a project may be
    further defined and clarified by project maintainers.

    Enforcement
    ===========

    Instances of abusive, harassing, or otherwise unacceptable behavior may be
    reported by contacting the Technical Advisory Board (TAB) at
    . All complaints will be reviewed and
    investigated and will result in a response that is deemed necessary and
    appropriate to the circumstances. The TAB is obligated to maintain
    confidentiality with regard to the reporter of an incident. Further details of
    specific enforcement policies may be posted separately.

    Maintainers who do not follow or enforce the Code of Conduct in good faith may
    face temporary or permanent repercussions as determined by other members of the
    project’s leadership.

    1. Re:Code of Conduct - Exact Text by smallfries · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No more telling people they can deep-throat Microsoft if they want then. No wonder Linus needed to go and “find himself”.

      --
      Slashdot: where don knuth is an idiot because he cant grasp the awesome power of php
    2. Re:Code of Conduct - Exact Text by sinij · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This Code of Conduct applies both within project spaces and in public spaces when an individual is representing the project or its community. Examples of representing a project or community include using an official project e-mail address, posting via an official social media account, or acting as an appointed representative at an online or offline event.

      Looks good. So if you are not acting on behalf of the project, use official project email for communication, or were officially appointed representative, then your conduct has no relationship with this. Extreme example - Nazi would still be able to contribute as long as Nazi-related speech is kept out of commits, discussions, mailing list, and group events.

      Representation of a project may be further defined and clarified by project maintainers.

      Ugh, what? Why bother defining the above applicability rules and then inserting this gigantic "scope is what project maintainers decide the scope is"? This seems like a huge flaw that has to be fixed.

    3. Re:Code of Conduct - Exact Text by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      One thing is certain - codes of conduct exist to take projects away from maintainers. That's their purpose. They've been forced onto one project after another - they are the open source/free software version of entryism. Woolly wording... fuck all to do with actual technology... vague enough to be used to crucify men based on anonymous, worthless allegations.

      Linus will end up regretting this. He'll be forced off the project by some bullshit made-up claim.

      It's how this always happens. Mark my words.

    4. Re:Code of Conduct - Exact Text by Etcetera · · Score: 3, Informative

      Err, you left out the bottom part: https://github.com/torvalds/linux/commit/8a104f8b5867#diff-310ab816e1e15913bbe69e164b689ac9R77

      Attribution
      ===========

      This Code of Conduct is adapted from the Contributor Covenant, version 1.4,
      available at https://www.contributor-covenant.org/version/1/4/code-of-conduct.html

    5. Re:Code of Conduct - Exact Text by bsDaemon · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Meanwhile, what was removed:

      -The Linux kernel development effort is a very personal process compared
      -to "traditional" ways of developing software. Your code and ideas
      -behind it will be carefully reviewed, often resulting in critique and
      -criticism. The review will almost always require improvements to the
      -code before it can be included in the kernel. Know that this happens
      -because everyone involved wants to see the best possible solution for
      -the overall success of Linux. This development process has been proven
      -to create the most robust operating system kernel ever, and we do not
      -want to do anything to cause the quality of submission and eventual
      -result to ever decrease.
      -
      -If however, anyone feels personally abused, threatened, or otherwise
      -uncomfortable due to this process, that is not acceptable. If so,
      -please contact the Linux Foundation's Technical Advisory Board at
      -, or the individual members, and they
      -will work to resolve the issue to the best of their ability.

      So, the language that states "best possible solution" has been replaced language related to the "good of the community." Personally, I don't interact with Linux as a community (if my name isn't enough of a tip-off). I consume it as a product, and I want the best product I can get in order to go do something else, because work. If they think they can still get the best product while airing all this drama in public and trying to build sticks to hit each other with, whatever. Good on them. What I fear will happen is more "my ignorance is just as valid as your expertise, and if you don't think so i'm going to beat you with the CoC until you stop hurting my feelings." That's not going to result in a better product.

      But, not my community, not my responsibility. But now that most of the world runs on this stack, I just want to see a consistently high level of quality. Lack of quality makes it my problem, regardless of whether or not it is my responsibility.

    6. Re:Code of Conduct - Exact Text by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

      Better not make a joke about dongles

    7. Re:Code of Conduct - Exact Text by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      A quick diff suggests that the only adaptation they made was to change the phrase "project maintainers" to "maintainers", and fill in their contact details.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    8. Re:Code of Conduct - Exact Text by sinij · · Score: 1

      You could submit a pull request to fix it, you know.

      I think this should be done. I think clearly defined scope is extremely important, as ability to contribute good code is not in any way related to one's other life decisions. CoC should be clearly defined to govern conduct related to the project and nothing more. This limitation should be immutable and not subject to interpretation or revision by anyone.

      I can understand concerns others have with CoC, especially with abusive behavior (e.g. deplatform, un-person) that comes from SJW camp. Ideally CoC should be used to stop both "Show Boobz or GTFO" behavior and "Trump voters are racist, we don't accept commits from racist" behavior.

    9. Re: Code of Conduct - Exact Text by bsDaemon · · Score: 4, Informative

      FreeBSD has a lot of its own drama, yes. It also has some technical shortcomings that prevent me from using it at work. Some of of the attempts to fix those shortcomings have resulted in drama. The problem with literally everything is people, which sucks and can't be gotten away from. The further problem with open source is for some people it's a hobby, and for some people its work. And if it's your hobby, no one wants to be told your baby is ugly. If its work, you don't really want to deal with people insulting each other's babies. You just want to get your product done, with as few defects as possible.

      But once you have a job, a family, and property and other stuff that needs attention and protection, interacting with the community becomes less of priority. And once it is, none of the shouting and jabbing and pushing around is worth it. I'm in the camp of "ignore the politics and just use the software" at this point, but in today's 24/7 live-streamed outrage culture, it is impossible to ignore the politics. The people with an agenda won't let themselves be ignored as long as you're plugged in.

      So, computers for work only. Not really interested in spending hobby time on it anymore. I haven't been on IRC in months. I quit twitter because I couldn't spend more than 45 seconds on it without hating the whole world. Facebook is a time sink that isn't worth it. Frankly, Slashdot jumped the shark like 10 years ago but I still keep coming here anyway for reasons unknown. I should probably review that...

    10. Re:Code of Conduct - Exact Text by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Linus will end up regretting this. He'll be forced off the project by some bullshit made-up claim.

      Is this something that commonly happens after maintainers adopt a code of conduct? Is it something that's ever happened?

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    11. Re:Code of Conduct - Exact Text by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      You know it's really easy, all you need is an email address and git. You can do it through Github or not.

      Having said that I don't think that one sentence is the issue you really want to address here. The bit you liked says "examples of", i.e. it's not an exclusive list. So it already includes anything else that might be deemed official, with the determination ultimately being made by the Technical Advisory Board.

      That's probably the only realistic option, since as any D&D player will tell you there is always some situation they missed in the rule book that the DM will have to make the final decision on... But by all means, feel free to try and enumerate every possible way someone can represent a project in some capacity.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    12. Re:Code of Conduct - Exact Text by flabman · · Score: 2

      I was blacklisted years ago by David Miller from contributing to the kernel, and from contributing to every other project that user vger as its mailing list server, for calling David out on his use of the word "jackass" in his review of a patch submitted by another contributor. David Miller is the vger admin. This issue affects not only Linus but several of his lieutenants as well.

    13. Re:Code of Conduct - Exact Text by Morgon · · Score: 1

      Because there may be times where they may be socially associated with an organization, but not acting on "official" behalf of them. As a contrived example, if they're attending an industry conference where they're not an "appointed representative", people may still identify them as a "Linux maintainer".

      I don't disagree that it's ambiguous, but with people attempting to be hyper-literal in order to defend their terrible behavior as unactionable, I don't see any way it couldn't be. They have to leave themselves room to allow a case-by-case basis in egregious circumstances.

      --
      [DISCLAIMER: This post is a work of satire and should not be misconstrued as a holy text upon which to base a religion.]
    14. Re: Code of Conduct - Exact Text by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 1

      Slashdot jumped the shark like 10 years ago but I still keep coming here anyway for reasons unknown. I should probably review that...

      From your comment, you'd probably be happier if you did.

      --
      That is all.
    15. Re:Code of Conduct - Exact Text by sinij · · Score: 2

      Because there may be times where they may be socially associated with an organization, but not acting on "official" behalf of them. As a contrived example, if they're attending an industry conference where they're not an "appointed representative", people may still identify them as a "Linux maintainer".

      I don't disagree that it's ambiguous, but with people attempting to be hyper-literal in order to defend their terrible behavior as unactionable, I don't see any way it couldn't be. They have to leave themselves room to allow a case-by-case basis in egregious circumstances.

      It should be unactionable, because alternative is subjective and selective policing and that is orders of magnitude worse. My view that it shouldn't be up to a project to police terrible behaviour that is not directly related to the project.

    16. Re:Code of Conduct - Exact Text by Morgon · · Score: 1

      So if I were a known and public Linux maintainer, go to a tech conference, and start openly sexually harassing women attendees, or berating minorities who are showing interest in technology... you're saying the Linux Community should have no ability to distance themselves from that contributor in the form of revoking write access?

      Are you sure that's what you want?

      --
      [DISCLAIMER: This post is a work of satire and should not be misconstrued as a holy text upon which to base a religion.]
    17. Re:Code of Conduct - Exact Text by atriusofbricia · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This Code of Conduct applies both within project spaces and in public spaces
      when an individual is representing the project or its community. Examples of
      representing a project or community include using an official project e-mail
      address, posting via an official social media account, or acting as an appointed
      representative at an online or offline event.

      Looks good. So if you are not acting on behalf of the project, use official project email for communication, or were officially appointed representative, then your conduct has no relationship with this. Extreme example - Nazi would still be able to contribute as long as Nazi-related speech is kept out of commits, discussions, mailing list, and group events.

      Representation of a project may be further defined and clarified by project maintainers.

      Ugh, what? Why bother defining the above applicability rules and then inserting this gigantic "scope is what project maintainers decide the scope is"? This seems like a huge flaw that has to be fixed.

      You've confused a feature with a bug. That isn't a flaw. That's entirely by design. It gives the impression of being defined, but ultimately allows it to be fudged however the political winds are blowing. Neat, no?

      --
      I was raised on the command line, bitch

      "Nemo me impune lacesset"

    18. Re:Code of Conduct - Exact Text by sinij · · Score: 1

      So if I were a known and public Linux maintainer, go to a tech conference, and start openly sexually harassing women attendees, or berating minorities who are showing interest in technology... you're saying the Linux Community should have no ability to distance themselves from that contributor in the form of revoking write access?

      Are you sure that's what you want?

      Unless tech conference is sponsored/related by Linux, then "do nothing" is correct approach. Sexual harassment is against the law, if it is open then law enforcement would have no problems prosecuting such behavior.

      To flip this example on you:
      So if I were a known and public Linux maintainer, sponsor a pro-life initiative in my state... you're saying the Linux Community should have to distance themselves from that contributor in the form of revoking write access when someone complains?

    19. Re: Code of Conduct - Exact Text by Bongo · · Score: 1

      There's a lot to be said for washing the dishes rather than worrying about the state of the world and the cultural wars.

    20. Re:Code of Conduct - Exact Text by johannesg · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Of the 'traditional freedoms', I find one missing: the right to a political opinion. But I think we all know where this is going to end: it will be open season on those who voted Trump, for example.

    21. Re:Code of Conduct - Exact Text by guruevi · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Actually, this is generally what happens to a project. It adopts a CoC or enough anonymous/SJW complaints are created, big contributors leave or are forced out, the project dies or slows because it is spending inane amounts of energy on political discussions rather than technical.

      It happened with NodeJS, Kubernetes, LLVM, Tor, Debian all of which are decent projects but kind of 'stuck' now that boards and bug lists are overrun by "complaints" rather than technical discussions. If the SJW's don't get their way, they fork the code, take a number of core developers and none of those forks have actually produced a decent competitor to their parent rather, some of them have spawned their own forks because SJW infighting. Instead of getting a better product, a bunch of energy and time is wasted.

      It's happening with Python and Linux now. Expect Linux to slow down immensely.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    22. Re:Code of Conduct - Exact Text by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure you really want people who don't understand that "for everyone" covers everything they listed involved in kernel development. More than the double the length of a paragraph in order to repeat themselves over and over that yes everyone does in fact include a bunch of specific identifiers.

      Worse still it actually adds ambiguity since is that list supposed to be exhaustive or just some examples. It doesn't say "such as" or "for example" after all. "Everyone" has an obvious definition to start with, but since they felt the need to add a bunch of qualifiers are they using some other definition with a more restrictive meaning?

      Is it OK to harass people based on some other attribute? Say their politics or their taste in music?

    23. Re:Code of Conduct - Exact Text by Morgon · · Score: 2

      > if it is open then law enforcement would have no problems prosecuting such behavior.

      What world do you live in? We can't get people to agree that sexual harassment is even a thing, or should be legally actionable; you really think "law enforcement" is going to "prosecute" that? For the record, law enforcement still asks questions on what victims did to deserve it.

      As for your attempt to "flip the example", you will have tofurther define "sponsor" and "pro-life initiative"; one's an ambiguous term, the other often (not always, but often) masquerades as misogyny, thus more details. Donating money to a political figure because they identify as "pro-life" is one thing; providing funding for an effort to ban body autonomy or organizations that help women in many ways simply because that includes abortion is another.

      But your question was whether any of this should give the LC standing to revoke access -- probably not, in a vacuum. But then again, holding the abstract belief that women should be forced to unwillingly carry a child (especially regardless of circumstances) is abusive, but certainly less so than what I described above, so I don't think you really made an equal argument.

      --
      [DISCLAIMER: This post is a work of satire and should not be misconstrued as a holy text upon which to base a religion.]
    24. Re:Code of Conduct - Exact Text by sinij · · Score: 1

      > if it is open then law enforcement would have no problems prosecuting such behavior.

      What world do you live in? We can't get people to agree that sexual harassment is even a thing, or should be legally actionable; you really think "law enforcement" is going to "prosecute" that?

      I recommend you work on that problem instead of trying to find alternative law enforcement mechanisms by re-purposing other organizations.

      Linux community is designed to produce Linux kernel, not police sexual harassment in everyday life.

    25. Re:Code of Conduct - Exact Text by sinij · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Linux Community isn't a social network, support group, or law enforcement organization. It has a clearly defined purpose - to produce Linux kernel of best possible quality in shortest amount of time. You are trying to subvert and re-purpose this organization to suit your priorities and in doing so you are presuming to impose your values and your priorities on others. You are welcome to fork Linux and focus forked project on your specific list of priorities.

    26. Re:Code of Conduct - Exact Text by Morgon · · Score: 1

      First, it is incorrect to state that "I" am doing anything. The Linux Community themselves made these guidelines, I had nothing to do with it.

      With that in mind, it would seem the LC disagrees with your assessment.

      --
      [DISCLAIMER: This post is a work of satire and should not be misconstrued as a holy text upon which to base a religion.]
    27. Re:Code of Conduct - Exact Text by sinij · · Score: 1

      I am not aware of community or LT posting anything definitive on the clarity or lack of thereof of scope definition of the CoC. You are presuming to speak of behalf of Linux community when clearly you have no authority or standing to do so.

    28. Re:Code of Conduct - Exact Text by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      oh ho ho! Somebody already tried that. Specifically "expressing opinions that others find distasteful, in a forum unrelated to the project, shouldn't be grounds for action under this covenant".

      BEHOLD!.

      That pull request was rejected by CoralineAda, the author.

      Highlights from the argument against the PR:

      Personal twitter accounts are not magic excuses (especially non-magical when you have a verifiable association as a core dev mentioned in your bio of course)

      'chilling effects on free speech' seems more and more like a red herring.

      I don't think that having a project name in one's Twitter bio counts as representing that project.

      You either want to define a link between yourself on that account and the project, or you don't. You either want to borrow against the credibility of that project or you don't.

      A disclaimer that this is a personal account and personal opinions are your own and do not reflect those of the projects or communities mentioned should do the trick.

      But even with one of those silly "opinions are my own not those of $ORG" disclaimers, the manner and content of your free speech may serve to indirectly undermine obligations you have freely chosen to hold yourself to elsewhere. People do tend to see past the disclaimers, and you are not actually free of this consequence

      I'm saying that if a contributor tells me that they feel threatened or unsafe around a core developer, I would personally not hesitate to either speak to them about their conduct or remove them from the project as necessary. To me, the safety of the community is paramount. There are very few exceptional programmers in the world and I guarantee that pretty much any developer can make meaningful and impactful contributions. Just look at the Linux Kernel, how many hundreds (if not thousands of developers) has Linus personally alienated?

      Ada herself:

      To be clear, "outside the context of that project" did not apply in the case of the Opal team. Elia posted those things with a Twitter account that directly mentioned his role in the Opal project, and meh made some very disturbing statements in the discussion on the issue tracker.

      They are using this as a tool to attack people in the Linux community for expressing views they don't like.

    29. Re:Code of Conduct - Exact Text by sinij · · Score: 2

      This is exactly why I am advocating to address this ambiguity. Urgently.

    30. Re: Code of Conduct - Exact Text by ncc74656 · · Score: 1

      I'm in the camp of "ignore the politics and just use the software" at this point, but in today's 24/7 live-streamed outrage culture, it is impossible to ignore the politics. The people with an agenda won't let themselves be ignored as long as you're plugged in.

      You might not want to care, but as one wag put it, "The [SJWs] will not let you stay on the sidelines. You will be made to care."

      We're rapidly approaching the point where the only viable solution will involve shoving SJWs and other scumbags out of helicopters at altitude. Make a few examples pour encourager les autres, and maybe the others will start behaving like civilized people for a change.

      --
      20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
    31. Re:Code of Conduct - Exact Text by atriusofbricia · · Score: 1

      This is exactly why I am advocating to address this ambiguity. Urgently.

      Agreed 100%

      --
      I was raised on the command line, bitch

      "Nemo me impune lacesset"

    32. Re:Code of Conduct - Exact Text by ljw1004 · · Score: 2

      Actually, this is generally what happens to a project. It adopts a CoC or enough anonymous/SJW complaints are created, big contributors leave or are forced out, the project dies or slows because it is spending inane amounts of energy on political discussions rather than technical. It happened with NodeJS, Kubernetes, LLVM, Tor, Debian all of which are decent projects but kind of 'stuck' now that boards and bug lists are overrun by "complaints" rather than technical discussions.

      I wondered if what you said is true? Here's a graph of LLVM contributions. I pulled it from github's llvm-mirror/llvm repo, and used github's "Insights > Contributions" tab to display the graph. Github claimed that the graph shows up to September 2018 -- that's contradicted by the labels and tickmarks. I wonder if github's graph-plotting routines don't get the label+tickmark positions quite right? I aimed to include roughly equal spans before and after the code of conduct to see if there's a clear effect.

      https://i.imgur.com/fXorXyo.pn...

      My conclusion? I don't see a clear signal. The graph seems to have roughly the same noise level and averages before and after, and a better narrative would be "there are sometimes huge sustained spikes of activity for reasons presumably related to the content of the work". (This is just from eyeballing it; I can't be bothered to put the numbers into a spreadsheet and do the calculations more carefully). If you say that LLVM is now dead, that's not supported by the data. If you say it's slowed, that's plausible (we'd need numbers), but the data says there hasn't been a major slowdown.

      If you believe a different numerical analysis would be better, one that takes into account the quality of the contributions, then yes please I'd love for you to provide that! Or for you to provide equivalent graphs for the other projects you listed.

    33. Re:Code of Conduct - Exact Text by Cederic · · Score: 1

      We can't get people to agree that sexual harassment is even a thing, or should be legally actionable; you really think "law enforcement" is going to "prosecute" that?

      In which case excluding someone from a project to which they may have made many contributions over an extended period is even more fucking asinine.

      If they post "You're cute, I want to fuck you until you're unconscious" on the kernel mailing list then sure, ask them to change their behaviour. What they do at an entirely unconnected conference is, oddly enough, entirely unconnected.

    34. Re:Code of Conduct - Exact Text by Cederic · · Score: 1

      The TAB is obligated to maintain
      confidentiality with regard to the reporter of an incident.

      So basically it's a kangaroo court. No chance to challenge the credibility or facts of the accuser, because they remain anonymous.

    35. Re:Code of Conduct - Exact Text by gweihir · · Score: 1

      This is repulsive, insulting and stupid on so many levels it is staggering. And, look!, they even have the inquisition!

      Interestingly, it fails its own standards (thereby stressing that whoever wrote this is stupid), because it mandates exclusion and repression against anybody that disagrees. A little fascist heaven.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    36. Re:Code of Conduct - Exact Text by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Indeed. A power-grab by people that could never create anything like the kernel, but are desperately envious and want in. So they force their way in with underhanded and dishonorable methods and destroy the whole thing in the process.

      This needs a decisive rebuff and a clear message of "You are not welcome here!" to these people. Unfortunately, it looks like that is not going to happen.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    37. Re:Code of Conduct - Exact Text by gweihir · · Score: 1

      You have no right to an opinion in the conformist's heaven. An opinion can always be construed as "discriminating" or "insulting" those that have a different opinion. Once you let opinions and, worse, views in, people need to have some level of maturity and personal robustness to keep communicating. Obviously the scum behind this CoC does not have that and instead want to be innocent and weak children that never, ever are confronted with anything not pleasant, because they cannot deal with that. In the end this is community over individuals and it is a very fascist idea.

      Now, if you voted Trump, I will call you an idiot, and I may just ignore you, but kicking you of slashdot for it or some other form of repression against you would be very, very wrong.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    38. Re:Code of Conduct - Exact Text by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Jup. After all, anybody with a complaint will just be entirely truthful and never have their own agenda, right. This is made for sabotage and destroying reputations. I predict we will even see rape-complaints in this channel in short order, after all there is zero risk to the accuser.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    39. Re:Code of Conduct - Exact Text by weilawei · · Score: 1

      I've been trawling through the comments, and I think I like this the best. Concise and on-point.

      Well said.

    40. Re:Code of Conduct - Exact Text by guruevi · · Score: 1

      But that is the leftist response to everything. Communism didn't work because it was poorly implemented. UBI didn't work because it was poorly implemented.

      The point of these CoC is to allow for these political discussions. If you don't want the discussions, don't have a CoC and tell everyone that complains to shut up.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    41. Re:Code of Conduct - Exact Text by guruevi · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You don't see a clear trend in the graph you've provided? Contributions are trending upwards until the CoC is introduced, then they trend downwards until someone quits. I don't think we have enough data to see what the effect on the main contributors quitting is but you can see similar trends in other projects.

      I'm not saying LLVM is dead, but as someone else said, there is a huge brain drain BACK to GCC which was the entire reason people jumped onto LLVM.

      Same for NodeJS, there too you can see a huge difference, even though the number of contributors has risen, the number of commits goes down. Parts of this has to do that the SJW's split off NodeJS (a fork that is now dead), the leadership thought this was an issue back then, in a panic introduced a CoC which allowed the SJW to persecute another developer, the SJW then split it onto Ayo (now also dead). This drama keeps people from using their free time to do what they want as far as contributions and now they have to deal with leftist politics, it saps people from working on the core projects because either they start working on a fork that doesn't pan out or they just stay away from the drama.

      I am a firm believer in free speech. Don't like what someone has to say, then ignore them. Persecutions and witch hunts kill organizations. I've seen it happen locally in various settings too, various clubs are dying because everyone has to introduce 'safe spaces' and falls over each other not to hurt someone's feelings.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    42. Re:Code of Conduct - Exact Text by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      to produce Linux kernel of best possible quality in shortest amount of time.

      You'd be amazed at how much better quality and speed is when you cut through toxic bullshit that you sometimes see on the kernel mailing list.

    43. Re:Code of Conduct - Exact Text by Reziac · · Score: 1

      A reminder from ESR:

      http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6907

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    44. Re: Code of Conduct - Exact Text by doom · · Score: 1

      Slashdot jumped the shark like 10 years ago but I still keep coming here anyway for reasons unknown

      Because it actually sucks less, weirdly enough. The entire time I've been here, I've been complaining the system is too easy to game (if it doesn't happen, it's because no one bothers, not because it's hard), but the rest of the web is in even worse shape and is struggling to come up with the features a couple of shall we say non-geniuses hacked out in the late nineties.

      Also of course, the virtue of being on the other side of the shark jump is no one much cares about the place, and the continuing spiral into madness takes place somewhere else -- e.g. no one at slashdot is going to tell me I can't call you an idiot, and the odds are good you're not a big enough idiot to call out the Outrage Brigade if I do.

  3. Am I missing something? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    "participation in our project and our community a harassment-free experience for everyone, regardless of age, body size, disability, ethnicity, sex characteristics, gender identity and expression, level of experience, education, socio-economic status, nationality, personal appearance, race, religion, or sexual identity and orientation."

    What's the difference between "gender identity and expression" and "sexual identity and orientation"?

    1. Re:Am I missing something? by CoolVibe · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No clue. But they could have cut out complete swaths of text just by stating "We don't care what you are, what you do, or what your opinions are. Just show us the code. If it's good, we'll take it. If it's not, we'll see what we can salvage". All this fluffy bullshit is just that. Fluffy bullshit.

    2. Re:Am I missing something? by AuMatar · · Score: 1

      Gender identity is about what you are- male, female, unsure, etc. Sexual identity is about what you want to fuck- male, female, both, etc.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    3. Re:Am I missing something? by CoolVibe · · Score: 1

      Both things are irrelevant. Compilers really don't care. Neither does hardware.

    4. Re:Am I missing something? by CoolVibe · · Score: 1

      I'm looking forward to the shit-slinging on the mailinglists because someone made a comment that hurt some fee-fees. But yes. I'm of the same mind as my compilers and interpreters. They don't care. Neither do I.

    5. Re:Am I missing something? by AuMatar · · Score: 2

      Right. And the code of conduct says it should be irrelevant on the mailing list as well- that people should be treated with respect regardless of all that. Sounds fine to me.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    6. Re:Am I missing something? by SirSlud · · Score: 1

      Compilers don't run or manage the project.

      --
      "Old man yells at systemd"
    7. Re:Am I missing something? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Gender identity is about what you are- male, female, unsure, etc. Sexual identity is about what you want to fuck- male, female, both, etc.

      ....kids, animals, inanimate objects, sex dolls, whatever right?

    8. Re:Am I missing something? by religionofpeas · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't see why somebody's gender or sexual preferences even need to come up in the first place on a mailing list discussing technical issues about the code.

    9. Re:Am I missing something? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1, Insightful

      "We don't care what you are, what you do, or what your opinions are. Just show us the code. If it's good, we'll take it. If it's not, we'll see what we can salvage"

      Linux isn't a monolithic block like that, where you anonymously submit patches and get an accept/reject response.

      Linux is a community of developers who cooperate to plan and develop features and ensure that they all integrate and operate well together. Many of the contributors are doing it for work. Most use their real names, and many attend conferences where they meet other members of the community in person.

      There have always been some rules about behaviour, just not well codified or enforced. Individual conferences and events often had their own. So it's not even new.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    10. Re:Am I missing something? by KlomDark · · Score: 1

      No shit, just avoid it on this list. I don't tell people about my sexual adventures and I don't want to hear yours either.

    11. Re:Am I missing something? by UnknownSoldier · · Score: 1, Funny

      > Human biology dictates a limit of 2 genders

      Hmm,

      * XX
      * XY
      * XXY
      * XYY

      But I take it you are referring to the Y chromosome ?

      Y is the sex-determining chromosome in many species, since it is the presence or absence of Y that determines the male or female sex of offspring produced in sexual reproduction.

      Who knew those that claimed "I sexually identify as an attack helicopter" were lying all this time! /s

    12. Re:Am I missing something? by Stormy+Dragon · · Score: 1

      There's also things like androgen insensitive XY where the Y exists in the genotype but is suppressed from expressing in the phenotype.

    13. Re: Am I missing something? by CoolVibe · · Score: 1

      The triplets are outliers. Statistically insignificant. Something you'd dismiss when you take a weighted average.

  4. Re: Not covered by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    RMS is not a kernel développer you know.

  5. Exceptions by c · · Score: 5, Funny

    I assume "works for Intel" is still fair game, right?

    --
    Log in or piss off.
    1. Re:Exceptions by CoolVibe · · Score: 2

      ..or any other opinion that isn't politically correct or "hurts feewings".

    2. Re:Exceptions by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

      Only if you were on the Itanium team at one point in time, which is, naturally, a digital version of (rightfully) being branded.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    3. Re:Exceptions by c · · Score: 1

      Oh, man, that's kicking while they're down.

      I was thinking more about Intel's marketing and communications people.

      --
      Log in or piss off.
  6. Can't be examined in isolation by Etcetera · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I really, really, really wish these had been handled non-concurrently. It's virtually impossible not to analyze or comment on the two events together, which leads to some unsettling connotations for some.

    While I think Linus taking a breather to maybe not be as much of a dick while still demanding high quality code is an admirable moment of self-reflection, the roots of this Code of Conduct are quite unsettling.

    One really can't discuss the wording of the CoC without discussing the Contributor Covenant and the larger philosophical goals of the Post-Meritocracy manifesto.

    From the CC:

    A Code of Conduct for Open Source Projects
    Open Source has always been a foundation of the Internet, and with the advent of social open source networks this is more true than ever. But free, libre, and open source projects suffer from a startling lack of diversity, with dramatically low representation by women, people of color, and other marginalized populations.

    Part of this problem lies with the very structure of some projects: the use of insensitive language, thoughtless use of pronouns, assumptions of gender, and even sexualized or culturally insensitive names.

    Marginalized people also suffer some of the unintended consequences of dogmatic insistence on meritocratic principles of governance. Studies have shown that organizational cultures that value meritocracy often result in greater inequality.

    From the PMM:

    Meritocracy is a founding principle of the open source movement, and the ideal of meritocracy is perpetuated throughout our field in the way people are recruited, hired, retained, promoted, and valued.

    But meritocracy has consistently shown itself to mainly benefit those with privilege, to the exclusion of underrepresented people in technology. The idea of merit is in fact never clearly defined; rather, it seems to be a form of recognition, an acknowledgement that “this person is valuable insofar as they are like me.”

    (If you are not familiar with criticisms of meritocracy, please refer to the resources on this page.)

    It is time that we as an industry abandon the notion that merit is something that can be measured, can be pursued on equal terms by every individual, and can ever be distributed fairly.

    These are explicitly political documents... and they should be addressed as such. I don't think anyone has a problem with "don't be a jerk, and don't make it personal" in an open source project. Arguably, Linus has stepped over the line on occasion. The adoption of this document goes far beyond rectifying a mere lack of teeth in telling people to "Be excellent to each other"

    1. Re:Can't be examined in isolation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No shit. This is the beginning of the end for Linus and quite possibly Linux in its current hugely successful form. It won't happen tomorrow, but the sort of social justice lunatics wanting to take over the project are celebrating. See the nodejs fiasco for an example. He had to ensure he was never alone with a woman because of their machinations and using women to get alone with him before making allegations... and this is the next stage.

      Codes of conduct exist to take projects away from maintainers. That's their purpose. They've been forced onto one project after another - they are the open source/free software version of entryism. Woolly wording... fuck all to do with actual technology... vague enough to be used to crucify men based on anonymous, worthless allegations.

      Linus will end up regretting this. He'll be forced off the project by some bullshit made-up claim.

      It's how this always happens. Mark my words.

    2. Re:Can't be examined in isolation by sinij · · Score: 4, Interesting

      One really can't discuss the wording of the CoC without discussing the Contributor Covenant and the larger philosophical goals of the Post-Meritocracy manifesto

      I think you can. Nothing in CoC states that you must also adopt the manifesto. Sure, this CoC was produced by dubious people with very questionable intentions. Likewise, GPL license is based on Stallman's ideas. This doesn't mean that we have to adopt all of the Stallman's extreme views about software in their entirety. I am still hopeful that sanity will prevail and it won't go past CoC. However, I do understand and share your concerns.

    3. Re:Can't be examined in isolation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You what's going to happen next, quotas on the percentage of women and minorities contributing to projects. These people are cancer and it's about time they stopped.

    4. Re:Can't be examined in isolation by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1, Troll

      To be clear though the Code of Conduct doesn't say any of that, or even hint at it. And the text from the Contributor Covenant that you quoted isn't actually from the Covenant itself, it's from the preamble on the web page that introduces it.

      So I think your "context" here is just fear-mongering. Can you point to anything you find problematic in the actual Code of Conduct?

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    5. Re:Can't be examined in isolation by phantomfive · · Score: 1, Interesting

      The argument against meritocracy is this: Merit cannot be measured. How do you answer that claim? Do you disagree? It seems like you must have an argument against it.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    6. Re:Can't be examined in isolation by Junta · · Score: 1

      Notably that while they were making room for all that moderately flowery language about inclusion, they removed the parts where they warn that there may be criticism, because criticism is an important facet. Since a frank warning that *appropriate* criticism was deemed too scary, I suppose they omitted it.

      I still say there should be plenty of teach in 'be excellent to each other'. If there has been a problem, it is in how they have not enforced that philosophy, not that the philosophy tied their hands and prevented them from intervening to correct inappropriate interactions.

      --
      XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    7. Re:Can't be examined in isolation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Post meritocracy? What is this insanity!

      "What does a post-meritocracy world look like? It is founded on a core set of values and principles, an affirmation of belonging that applies to everyone who engages in the practice of software development."

      I don't want these people near the linux kernel!

    8. Re:Can't be examined in isolation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Merit = technical capability.
      Basically whenever I see a piece of code that make me go "nice", "avoided most pitfalls", "hadn't thought of that", that is merit gained right there.

      Merit = put hands on keyboard and work
      Something is getting hacky, a person refactors it (point above applies), without being explicitly asked to. Merit gained.

    9. Re:Can't be examined in isolation by Seven+Spirals · · Score: 1

      No. Linux is not a prize anymore. Never really was. Other *nix are better, IMHO. BSD especially. Linux can SJW itself out of existence for all I care. It stopped being relevant after systemd went mainline.

    10. Re:Can't be examined in isolation by Etcetera · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Notably that while they were making room for all that moderately flowery language about inclusion, they removed the parts where they warn that there may be criticism, because criticism is an important facet. Since a frank warning that *appropriate* criticism was deemed too scary, I suppose they omitted it.

      This is an excellent point. A presumed reason for it being called a "Code of Conflict" was an acknowledgement that there would be conflict, and that management of that conflict was crucial for any human endeavor. Conflict is natural, and our justice system itself is based on an adversarial interaction (lawyers for the prosecution and defense debate in front of a jury according to given rules). In that context, going from "conflict" to "conduct" itself is a notable change.

    11. Re:Can't be examined in isolation by Etcetera · · Score: 3, Interesting

      To be clear though the Code of Conduct doesn't say any of that, or even hint at it. And the text from the Contributor Covenant that you quoted isn't actually from the Covenant itself, it's from the preamble on the web page that introduces it.

      So I think your "context" here is just fear-mongering. Can you point to anything you find problematic in the actual Code of Conduct?

      I don't see how the explicit preamble on the main page is to be dissociated from the code itself. That's like saying that the FSF's philosophy is distinct from the GPL. By its nature, a debate about which copyright license to use (say, GPL vs BSD vs MIT) touches on the philosophical underpinnings of the licenses themselves, not solely on the text, nor solely on the utilitarian effect of the license on project use.

      To answer your question, though, yes. The previous code referred to humans individually and did not prioritize, label, or categorize the use of various "classes" of persons. The new conduct policy is vague as to conduct, guarantees corrective action without indicating guidelines on what that is, describes a "professional environment", which (despite individuals being employed at times) implies a regulatory framework on the project as a whole, explicitly brings in public behavior outside the context of the project as subject to the jurisdiction of this, and implies there are additional rules to come.

      Off-hand, I'd say the Code of Conduct from near the end of the movie Pleasantville was less oppressive.

    12. Re:Can't be examined in isolation by Etcetera · · Score: 1

      I am not a developer. I am a self taught system administrator.

      ...

      These two pieces of news this week have re-invigorated me into a desire to get more involved in the things I love(d). Now regardless of the motivation of Linus or the communities ideas here, at least one person will be coming back to the fold. Hopefully that is what the mission is here and the ruthlessness and "RTFM n00b" stuff is in the past now.

      Self-taught administrator here too. The thing is, OSS projects are voluntary. It, and the hacker ethic beforehand, relied on individual contributions, individual contributors, and individuals pulling their own weight. That does indeed mean that RTFM is important -- a willingness to put in the effort (by RTFMing) before demanding effort from others (answer my question) is part and parcel of the mutual respect that's necessary for a community of any type.

      This is WHY hacker communities for so long have led to standardized texts like How To Ask Questions The Smart Way.

      Were people ruthless? Sometimes. Did people sometimes go overboard? Almost certainly. (Hello, Theo and DJB, and everyone else from the late '90s and early 2000s!) But correcting that does *NOT* require the philosophical change that this code, and the Post-Meritocracy Manifesto behind it, represent.

    13. Re:Can't be examined in isolation by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Speaking of the GPL, Linux is licenced under it but doesn't follow the philosophy or politics of the author, or the stuff on the web site/organization from which it originates.

      Also, please read the Code of Conduct's "scope" section carefully again. It doesn't apply to things done outside the project. It is actually very narrow, limiting itself to when people are representing the project officially, such as via an official email address or as an organiser/representative at a conference.

      It doesn't even apply to most of the people contributing to Linux.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    14. Re:Can't be examined in isolation by sinij · · Score: 1

      The "these people might gain a degree of legitimacy by associating with Linux" problem is categorically different from "these people will end meritocracy in Linux" problem. One is a marginal concern, and another one existential crisis.

    15. Re:Can't be examined in isolation by atriusofbricia · · Score: 5, Interesting

      One really can't discuss the wording of the CoC without discussing the Contributor Covenant and the larger philosophical goals of the Post-Meritocracy manifesto

      I think you can. Nothing in CoC states that you must also adopt the manifesto. Sure, this CoC was produced by dubious people with very questionable intentions. Likewise, GPL license is based on Stallman's ideas. This doesn't mean that we have to adopt all of the Stallman's extreme views about software in their entirety. I am still hopeful that sanity will prevail and it won't go past CoC. However, I do understand and share your concerns.

      You're correct, the CoC doesn't absolutely require adopting the PMM. However, it would be very hard to ignore the fact that both were written by the same person with the same overall agenda in mind and what the previous person said is 100% correct, this is a political agenda and has nothing to do with technology and only relates to being respectful to people insofar as the ways in which that advances the political agenda in question.

      The previous "code" Linux had was fine. If a change was needed, an amendment of "Also, don't be a dick" would have worked. However, they have ripped out a code which specifically called for quality and good engineering above all and replaced it with one written by someone who is, by their own words a "Notorious Social Justice Warrior". I don't know the person, I could be misinterpreting their words and maybe it is tongue-in-cheek. I tend to doubt it.

      --
      I was raised on the command line, bitch

      "Nemo me impune lacesset"

    16. Re:Can't be examined in isolation by KlomDark · · Score: 1

      VERY VERY good point! The best developers have a touch of autism, and autistics generally struggle with personal interaction.

      So this COC discriminates against a protected class, and the primary contributors to the project.

      This WILL doom Linux in the long run.

      I'm only a light touch on the spectrum, and I already want to tell these people to fuck right off. I hate the thought police mentality.

    17. Re:Can't be examined in isolation by sinij · · Score: 1

      I often call out SJW on their flawed thinking in this regard, so it is only fair I call you out when you make the same mistake. Just because someone is Notorious Social Justice Warrior and done many SJW things, it doesn't mean that CoC they wrote is necessary flawed. People tend to be more than one thing. If it is possible to be a raging asshole and brilliant coder, then it also follows that it is possible to be a raging SJW and write good CoC.

      While I am not asserting that this CoC is good, I am asserting that we shouldn't criticize it solely based on political views of its author.

      I think the best defense against SJW is to implement this CoC then work on refining it. Fix the areas where it is ambiguous or invites abuses. Like imprecise scope definition.

    18. Re:Can't be examined in isolation by HornWumpus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's a stupid argument.

      Merit cannot be measured _perfectly_, same as all other metrics. Not the same as saying it can't be measured at all, which is just obviously wrong on its face.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    19. Re:Can't be examined in isolation by Etcetera · · Score: 1

      While I am not asserting that this CoC is good, I am asserting that we shouldn't criticize it solely based on political views of its author.

      I would absolutely agree with you if it were unrelated to the issue at hand -- I don't care what their views are on tax policy, federalism, national security, etc. Unfortunately, this "political view" is linked to from the CoC itself in that it's on the front page of the link that the code itself provides. Although that front page doesn't explicitly link to the manifesto, the entire third paragraph discusses meritocracy and its demerits. I think it's only nature to analyze that paragraph in the larger avowed scope of the anti-meritocracy movement.

    20. Re:Can't be examined in isolation by sinij · · Score: 1

      I think subvert the subversives is the right approach to this problem. CoC is innocent, and fighting it directly based on hypotheticals is a losing proposition that has optics of hysterical overreaction. We can't recreate GG's scorched earth approach in this situation, OSS and Linux too valuable to risk as collateral. Instead, we need to adopt and fix CoC so it is much harder to use for any other but stated purpose. We fork CoC and make sure it is effective at stopping clearly defined harassment and ineffective at pushing political agendas. SJWs won't be able to object to this process without admitting to their intentions.

      Here is what needs to happen:
      1. Scope has to be clearly defined to exclude any non-Linux activities. What people do behind closed doors is none of our business.
      2. Harassment should be clearly defined so it isn't possible to stretch definitions.
      3. There should be an official appeal process and mandatory community review for any disciplinary action as a result of CoC. It will be much harder to corrupt this process if everything has to be done in the open.

    21. Re:Can't be examined in isolation by atriusofbricia · · Score: 1

      I often call out SJW on their flawed thinking in this regard, so it is only fair I call you out when you make the same mistake. Just because someone is Notorious Social Justice Warrior and done many SJW things, it doesn't mean that CoC they wrote is necessary flawed. People tend to be more than one thing. If it is possible to be a raging asshole and brilliant coder, then it also follows that it is possible to be a raging SJW and write good CoC.

      While I am not asserting that this CoC is good, I am asserting that we shouldn't criticize it solely based on political views of its author.

        I think the best defense against SJW is to implement this CoC then work on refining it. Fix the areas where it is ambiguous or invites abuses. Like imprecise scope definition.

      While I generally agree with your reasoning, I think it needs pointing out that were it just the CoC it would be one thing. It's the totality of the CoC, PMM and other things which sets a pattern that is worth examining and sheds light onto other areas. I'm not entirely sure one can be completely isolated from the other in this instance, even if the idea is sound in the general case.

      I would rather write a CoC that needs less fixing in the first place than adopt one that appears deeply flawed, rife with fairly open definitions to the point of meaning anything. While it may not have been intentional, I do wonder if such ambiguity was intentional.

      Do you think the CoC and PMM, both written by the same person and which appear to contain the same values, aren't linked in values and purpose? We're not really talking about a case where a person wrote some random article with questionable conclusions and then went on to write something else. We're talking about a person who has taken a particular political position and actively works to push it forward using these tools and the behaviors they tend to engender. Would you say this is mistaken?

      --
      I was raised on the command line, bitch

      "Nemo me impune lacesset"

    22. Re:Can't be examined in isolation by sinij · · Score: 1

      What I think would depend on standard of rigor we apply. It is not beyond reasonable doubt that CoC is genuine. On the balance of probabilities? Well, that is harder to answer, as the body of work is there to weight against it.

      However, I don't think our choices are reject CoC or adopt CoC as written in stone. Rejecting it will all but ensure GG-like scorched earth war. We also don't have to adopt it as it is immutable and surrender all control of it to SJW.

      I think the right approach is to adopt it and fix it in a way that makes abusing it harder. This way we can claim that we faithfully implemented CoC while frustrating ulterior motives.

    23. Re:Can't be examined in isolation by mnmn · · Score: 1

      What is a self-taught sysadmin anyway? As opposed to what, a diploma in sysadmining?

      I'm probably your age too, got my start from cdrom.com Linux images in 1997. I've tested more than actually developed OSS code. I think I'm one of the guys who pushed 'RTFM n00b' to n00bs. You should understand the reasoning.

      The OSS community is about ego. Ego can and does drive excellent code ( because my d1ck is bigger than yours/my code is better than yours). People do measure each other on technical skills more than anything else, and compete on it. A rude genius has a lot of respect, yet a willing and keen n00b is mistreated because his questions are 'below' the time effort of the skilled guys.

      Note that I did not say this is how it should be, or that people should have free license to be rude in any setting. That's why colleges, universities and meetups exist; to ease the entry.

      My point here is that the OSS community is what it is. The same rudeness that pushes you and other guys away is what drives excellence(not universally), and this setup only exists where nobody is getting paid.

      --
      "Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
    24. Re:Can't be examined in isolation by atriusofbricia · · Score: 1

      What I think would depend on standard of rigor we apply. It is not beyond reasonable doubt that CoC is genuine. On the balance of probabilities? Well, that is harder to answer, as the body of work is there to weight against it.

      However, I don't think our choices are reject CoC or adopt CoC as written in stone. Rejecting it will all but ensure GG-like scorched earth war. We also don't have to adopt it as it is immutable and surrender all control of it to SJW.

      I think the right approach is to adopt it and fix it in a way that makes abusing it harder. This way we can claim that we faithfully implemented CoC while frustrating ulterior motives.

      That seems logical by in large. I think the difference is limited to my thought would be write a more logical and less ambiguous one from the start vice adopting one that is deeply flawed and modifying it. I can see the reasoning there, as you cay, it makes it possible to say that "We tried your way". Of course, I suspect the most ardent supporters will decry all changes. One can only go so far to appease though

      --
      I was raised on the command line, bitch

      "Nemo me impune lacesset"

    25. Re:Can't be examined in isolation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      False question. It does not need to be measured to form a meritocracy. It only needs to be order-able, and then it only needs to be fuzzy (think 'statistically significant' differences between two means.)

      So, would there be a significantly significant result in the merit weighting of person A being more than B when measured by the current members of the project?

      That's how I answer it. They have asked an irrelevant question to derail criticism.

      It does not need to be measured.

    26. Re:Can't be examined in isolation by Raenex · · Score: 1

      Yes, but why do it? Is Linux some incredible prize worth conquering?

      Cancer isn't discriminatory.

    27. Re:Can't be examined in isolation by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Merit can be estimated. It is a subjective estimation, not an exact neutral measure. However, doing a way with merit just because you cannot measure it exactly is the height of stupidity (which, incidentally, can also only be estimated). It is throwing the kid out with the bathwater. It is like saying, we cannot measure whether somebody is a good engineer (and we really cannot, see above), so we do away with trying and let just anybody in to building bridges, airplanes and kernels. Ultimately, it results in design by public opinion (the only thing worse than design by committee) and staggeringly bad decisions.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    28. Re:Can't be examined in isolation by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Now determine the "appropriateness" of criticism not from the technological merit (after all, "merit" is out), but from the impact on the target of the criticism. Hence a crybaby that delivers really bad code (there is a lot of those...) cannot be criticized anymore, because no criticism is appropriate anymore as it will hurt the target emotionally. Even ignoring such a person may be risky.

      And what about "constructive criticism"? Is "I am sorry, but you do not even understand the basics, read an introductory text on the subject and come back" constructive or not? It is the factually correct response in many cases, it is constructive, but it can be regarded as impolite, because it identifies a flaw in the other person (and a way to fix it (well, usually not)). How are you supposed to tell these people that they have no part in a specific discussion? Right, you cannot. And hence you will have discussions of important issues with, say, 5 experts and 100 clueless amateurs and the experts will not be getting anything done anymore because they cannot kick the clueless ones out. In the end, what happens is that the experts leave and the clueless take over.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    29. Re:Can't be examined in isolation by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Indeed. I do not even want this people on the same planet as me. They are incapable of solving any real problems and that is an extinction-level threat. They think that being an amateur with delusion puts you on the same level and gives you the same rights to contribute and discuss than an experienced engineer with specific domain knowledge.

      We may as well start holding public votes on whether a patch gets applied or a piece of code is included in the kernel. Utter madness.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    30. Re:Can't be examined in isolation by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      That's a good way to analyze the situation (and confuse anyone who hasn't really thought about it deeply).

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    31. Re:Can't be examined in isolation by Reziac · · Score: 1

      Short translation: We don't care if the output sucks, so long as we get to be in charge.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
  7. Re:Good. by CoolVibe · · Score: 2, Insightful

    We were here first. Get the hell off my lawn.

  8. Wheaton's law - Don't be a Dick by martiniturbide · · Score: 2

    It was about time they apply wheaton's law. "Don't be a Dick !" https://dontbeadickday.com/

    1. Re:Wheaton's law - Don't be a Dick by jimmifett · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Except Wheaton is one of the biggest violators of that.

    2. Re:Wheaton's law - Don't be a Dick by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Don't be a lazy flamebait cunt, list the examples then.

    3. Re:Wheaton's law - Don't be a Dick by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      So pussy or asshole it is?

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    4. Re:Wheaton's law - Don't be a Dick by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Which means he does understand the problem. Makes him excellently qualified to formulate that law.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  9. this is madness.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Is everybody insane?!

    1. Re:this is madness.. by CoolVibe · · Score: 1

      Not all of us, bub. I'll be somewhere grabbing popcorn and switching systems to OpenBSD or something. The snowflakes haven't infected that project yet.

  10. Re:Opinions by guruevi · · Score: 3, Insightful

    In post-modernist theory, those two things are the same though.

    --
    Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
  11. Linux: survived Microsoft, killed by SJWs by IGnatius+T+Foobar · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is the end of Linux as we know it. The "Code of Conduct" is teeming with words and phrases that indicate the project is now going to be policed by Social Justice Warriors who will micro-manage everything. It means that the Linux kernel is no longer a meritocracy.

    The only "code of conduct" ought to be: "my code doesn't care about your feelings". You can't develop good code in a Safe Space.

    --
    Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
    1. Re:Linux: survived Microsoft, killed by SJWs by AmiMoJo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What words specifically are you worried about?

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    2. Re:Linux: survived Microsoft, killed by SJWs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The lack of any discussing how good the contributed code should be.

    3. Re:Linux: survived Microsoft, killed by SJWs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "The end of Linux as we know it"? Gee, overreach much?

      No, it won't be the end of Linux as we know it. If anything it could make Linux better by not pushing away code contributors thanks to a sometimes toxic community.

      The issue, which you surely know and are willfully ignoring/misrepresenting is NOT that my code cares about your feelings, but that people in the development community shouldn't be assholes when dealing with each other.

      And you can write good code in a "Safe Space". I've worked at several companies that had very strict rules about conduct in code reviews, problem reporting, and, more generally, meetings. And you know what? We did good and sometimes great work, because we could focus on our work, the stuff we loved about coding, and not the petty personal crap that tends to creep into nearly all workplaces. If someone got out of line, no one even had to complain; word of what happened would inevitably get to mgmt who would discreetly step in, talk to the offender behind closed doors, and that would be the end of it.

      If you value your opportunities to be a jerk more than creating a comfortable, productive work environment, then there's nothing anyone can do to help you.

    4. Re:Linux: survived Microsoft, killed by SJWs by religionofpeas · · Score: 4, Insightful

      For example: "fostering an open and welcoming environment", plus all notes relating to that.

      It would be better if the environment was not particularly welcoming and friendly to those people who can't produce the highest quality code. If you can't keep up, get out of the way.

    5. Re:Linux: survived Microsoft, killed by SJWs by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You can't develop good code in a Safe Space.

      Personally, I don't see how you develop good software in the middle of a jerk factory bro party either other than by pure luck. But that's me.

      --
      That is all.
    6. Re:Linux: survived Microsoft, killed by SJWs by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Note that the old CoC warned contributors that most contributed code would need revising before being accepted. In other words, hardly anyone is good enough to produce high enough quality for Linux and it takes community effort to get to that level.

      So if you think people who "can't keep up" should "get out of the way" you are rejecting most Linux contributors.

      I also don't see how being open and welcoming would prevent feedback being given and code improve before being accepted. If anything it should help the process along. Perhaps you can give us a real world example of how you think this could be a problem.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    7. Re:Linux: survived Microsoft, killed by SJWs by IGnatius+T+Foobar · · Score: 2

      So only code that's made in an unsafe space can be good? Only code that is made by someone full of hate is valid?

      The fact that you use the word "hate" to describe any words or actions that do not agree with your totalitarian socialist worldview, indicates that you don't have anything useful to contribute and are part of the problem.

      My code doesn't care about your feelings. Go make me a sandwich.

      --
      Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
    8. Re:Linux: survived Microsoft, killed by SJWs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Funny how quick the mask comes off. Now bullying is okay in your world, as long as it's people you don't like.

    9. Re:Linux: survived Microsoft, killed by SJWs by Phillip2 · · Score: 1, Insightful

      "Meritocracy" is a confusing word, since it just means something where merit is important. But without a definition of merit, it's not really that helpful. Nor, is "we should just consider code that works". I mean, some who writes functional code that does the job is nice, but if that code is unreadable and unmaintainable by some else, that's not so good.

      And, if we say, "he's a great coder, but an idiot whose annoys everyone in their social interactions", that is not so great. Then "merit" becomes "the ability to code and the ability to put up with an idiot who annoys everyone".

      For myself, the idea that a project does not allow racial abuse, for example, is a perfectly reasonable thing to put in a code of conduct. It's not a nice thing to do, and it's not a nice thing to receive. But, more than this, in some jurisdictions, it could cause legal problems if an employer put a member of staff in a position where this happened to them and did nothing about it.

      I am curious, though, where you get the idea that good code is dependent on an "unsafe space"?

    10. Re:Linux: survived Microsoft, killed by SJWs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If you value your opportunities to be a jerk more than creating a comfortable, productive work environment, then there's nothing anyone can do to help you.

      Linux's development has already been one of incredibly high productivity

    11. Re:Linux: survived Microsoft, killed by SJWs by religionofpeas · · Score: 2

      I also don't see how being open and welcoming would prevent feedback being given and code improve before being accepted

      What's a nice way to say that the code is a total disaster area and that it has no business being near the kernel ? What if "code improve" means that it needs to rewritten from scratch by someone else who actually understands ? Plenty of people simply have the wrong idea about how to solve a problem. Having those people in the team just slows everything down, and arguing with them, or trying to explain how to improve, can be a waste of time. In order words, you just want to fire them from the project, because they aren't good enough. What's a good inclusive and welcoming way to fire someone ?

    12. Re:Linux: survived Microsoft, killed by SJWs by ljw1004 · · Score: 2

      It would be better if the environment was not particularly welcoming and friendly to those people who can't produce the highest quality code. If you can't keep up, get out of the way.

      Citation needed.

      I've found it better to reject code that isn't high enough quality in a friendly and welcoming manner -- from my personal experience from my 15 years in the industry, I've found that a quicker and more successful way to motivate substandard coders to become good and productive coders.

      It reminds me of the Aesop's Fable about when the sun and the wind made a bet to see who could get someone to take off my cloak -- so I assume my experience reflects a more or less universal human experience.

      But I'm not aware of studies one way or the other in the specific area of OSS code contributions.

    13. Re:Linux: survived Microsoft, killed by SJWs by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Assuming they somehow figured out how to do a pull request yet still have no idea how to code, you could try:

      "I'm sorry, but we can't accept this pull request. The Linux kernel has really high standards and you might try working on some other projects and building up to it first. You are clearly enthusiastic and I'd encourage you to keep learning and improving. If you want some tips then you could try asking for a code review on Stack Exchange, for example."

      That completely meets the requirements of the CoC. I'm sure you could try to twist it into a complaint but I'm sure the Technical Advisory Board wouldn't be interested.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    14. Re:Linux: survived Microsoft, killed by SJWs by IGnatius+T+Foobar · · Score: 2

      The social justice communists have declared an assumption that meritocracies produce environments where "some groups are underrepresented". In reality, if some groups are underrepresented, what you have isn't a meritocracy. Either that or, those groups simply aren't present in the pool of potential developers for the project -- and if that's the case, you can go and create mentoring programs if you want to. We do NOT want affirmative action programs to ruin open source the way it ruins everything else it touches.

      --
      Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
    15. Re:Linux: survived Microsoft, killed by SJWs by ljw1004 · · Score: 1

      What's a nice way to say that the code is a total disaster area and that it has no business being near the kernel?

      "Thanks for your contribution. This diff you sent touches a lot of areas of code, which means we'll need a more careful test matrix to make sure we've shaken out every possible consequence. Also, past experience has shown that changes to files XYZ have been correlated with a high rate of undiscovered bugs. I agree that this is an important area, but let's step back and see if we can figure out a different plan of attack."

      (You just said "total disaster area", so I had to fill in one possible scenario for why it's a total disaster area, so that I could give a constructive reason. One of the key parts about being nice/respectful/mentoring is to give constructive feedback.)

      What if "code improve" means that it needs to rewritten from scratch by someone else who actually understands?

      "Let's step back and see if we can figure out a different plan of attack."

      Plenty of people simply have the wrong idea about how to solve a problem... In order words, you just want to fire them from the project, because they aren't good enough. What's a good inclusive and welcoming way to fire someone?

      That's a bad reason to fire someone. You should fire someone either because they lack POTENTIAL to get up to par, or because you see that they do have the potential but you lack the resources to help them get up to par (i.e. you're willing to let a future good coder go because you're currently resource-constrained, or you think it will be cheaper to have the training done elsewhere and pay for the trained person).

    16. Re:Linux: survived Microsoft, killed by SJWs by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      The best way to fire an air thief is to convince the competition she's indispensable and trick them into hiring her away.

      See how inclusive I am, using female pronouns to describe a dev...

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    17. Re: Linux: survived Microsoft, killed by SJWs by IGnatius+T+Foobar · · Score: 1

      Using the term "hate" reflexively to refer to anything that doesn't align 100% with your totalitarian leftist worldview, makes you part of the problem. Go fuck yourself.

      --
      Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
    18. Re: Linux: survived Microsoft, killed by SJWs by Coventry · · Score: 1

      Considering the original poster used the term "hate" in quotes, you seem to be really overreaching. And to assume anyone who doesn't want to see hate speech is a leftist totalitarian is sadly very, very shortsighted.

      Go pet a puppy, it will make you feel better.

      --
      man is machine
    19. Re:Linux: survived Microsoft, killed by SJWs by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Indeed. The kernel is hardcore engineering. Its attached community cannot and must never be "open and welcoming". It must have harsh obstacles to entry, it must constantly verify quality of work and must tell those lacking to shape up or get out. The overall goal of technological excellence must be put far above individual sensitivities. Anything else means failure.

      But the people behind this madness do not care what they destroy, as long as everybody behaves nicely. They do not care one bit about the project itself and will happily cause its demise as long as they can prevent the use of "bad words" and other unpleasantness. They are purveyors of scorched earth and utter failure.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    20. Re:Linux: survived Microsoft, killed by SJWs by gweihir · · Score: 1

      That will get you hauled before the inquisition board so fast your head will be spinning. You just caused somebody to feel bad!

      Are you really so blind as to be unable to see where this is going?

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    21. Re:Linux: survived Microsoft, killed by SJWs by gweihir · · Score: 1

      "The end of Linux as we know it"?

      It is. Giants dies lowly, but in 10 years the problems will become visible and after that slowly become really bad. I would be surprised if Linux is still relevant in 30 years. But there may well be a fork that is going strong and has all the actually competent people in it and a CoC of "We will not accept any fucking CoC!".

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    22. Re:Linux: survived Microsoft, killed by SJWs by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Can you show us an example of this actually happening?

      Maybe I am blind but I've never seen it, and whenever I ask for examples I never get anything that matches the description.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    23. Re:Linux: survived Microsoft, killed by SJWs by gweihir · · Score: 1

      I propose that you try it on the LKML in, say, 4-6 months....

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    24. Re:Linux: survived Microsoft, killed by SJWs by Phillip2 · · Score: 1

      "Meritocracy is NOT confusing. It means some people are better at tasks than others, despite their race or gender. That's it."

      Okay, well that's nice a simple. Although you don't say what these tasks are. This is the problem. WIthout being clear about this, "meritocracy" is meaningless. It can mean what ever you decide it to mean.

      If the task is provide a polite, comfortable environment that people are happy and free to produce their best code, then clearly by Linux is not a meritocracy because Linus is not very good at this.

    25. Re:Linux: survived Microsoft, killed by SJWs by Phillip2 · · Score: 1

      Yes, I agree, if there is a significant under-representation of some groups, you probably don't have a meritocracy.

      Affirmative action is always a tricky one. It works in some circumstances, but can indeed cause issues.

  12. fun game out of context, totally apropos: by Thud457 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    BULLSHIT.
    -- Linus Torvalds, LKML, 21/1/2018

    COMPLETE AND UTTER GARBAGE.
    -- Linus Torvalds, LKML, 21/1/2018

    WHAT THE F*CK IS GOING ON?
    -- Linus Torvalds, LKML, 21/1/2018

    --

    the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

    1. Re:fun game out of context, totally apropos: by wed128 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yeah, but he's right.

    2. Re:fun game out of context, totally apropos: by phantomfive · · Score: 5, Informative

      In context, those posts are unusually tame and restrained. If you trust Linus, the Intel guy lied about what the patches were doing (or the Intel guy didn't understand what they were doing and someone had lied to him, one of those two).

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    3. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by PopeRatzzo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Unfortunately, this kind of fury is sometimes needed to keep developers in line in the FOSS world. But only when the project is something as important as the Linux kernel.
      Linus has always had a handle on his fiery pasdion. Theo de Raadt has not and always let his ego get in the way.

      Do not apologize, Linus. Without your might, Linux will go the way of Windows 8 within a few short years.

    4. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      You can be hard on developers without offending a group of people, who attributes are unrelated to the topic that needs to be corrected.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    5. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Ever deal with a retard that thinks himself a genius? Sometimes being offensive is the only way to blow past the idiocy efficiently.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    6. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by lgw · · Score: 3, Insightful

      ou can be hard on developers without offending a group of people, who attributes are unrelated to the topic that needs to be corrected.

      Beautiful in theory. In practice, if a white male criticizes someone who isn't, the content of the criticism is irrelevant, and he's automatically a bigot. It's all political power games.

      Fingers crossed that Linux avoids "get woke; go broke", but if Linus stays away it could go rotten as so many other things have,

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    7. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You can academic admonish bad grammar.

    8. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by Penguinisto · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This, this right the fuck here.

      I've seen more than my share of soi-disant developer gods (who, well, weren't), and sometimes the only way to shut them the hell up and make them listen is to nuke their ego from orbit and use a few harsh words to drive the point home while you do it.

      This method works perfectly in the Military (has for literal centuries), and adapts nicely to the dev world.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    9. Re:fun game out of context, totally apropos: by iMadeGhostzilla · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And this is why he's right:

      "So somebody isn't telling the truth here. Somebody is pushing complete garbage for unclear reasons. Sorry for having to point that out."

      He never trashes the human being, only the stupid thing they did, and people do stupid things and need feedback and correction. But the SJW culture has people focusing on their feelings and their fragile egos instead of what is being built.

    10. Re:fun game out of context, totally apropos: by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Here's my edited version of Linus's email, which I suggest conveys the same serious message but in a less brutal way. Most of it is actually fine.

      > Certainly it's a nasty hack, but hey â€" the world was on fire and in the > end we didn't have to just turn the datacentres off and go back to goat > farming, so it's not all bad.

      It's not that it's a nasty hack. It's much worse than that.

      > As a hack for existing CPUs, it's just about tolerable â€" as long as it
      > can die entirely by the next generation.

      That's part of the big problem here. The speculation control cpuid stuff shows that Intel actually seems to plan on doing the right thing for meltdown (the main question being _when_). Which is not a huge surprise, since it should be easy to fix, and it's a really honking big hole to drive through. Not doing the right thing for meltdown would be completely unacceptable.

      So the IBRS stuff implies that Intel is _not_ planning on doing the right thing for the indirect branch speculation.

      Honestly, that's completely unacceptable too.

      > So the part is I think is odd is the IBRS_ALL feature, where a future
      > CPU will advertise "I am able to be not broken" and then you have to
      > set the IBRS bit once at boot time to *ask* it not to be broken. That
      > part is weird, because it ought to have been treated like the RDCL_NO
      > bit â€" just "you don't have to worry any more, it got better".

      This is not a good solution.

      The whole IBRS_ALL feature suggest that Intel is not serious about doing a proper fix, just an expensive hack that won't be enabled by default because the performance hit would be unacceptable.

      It's not even a good solution from a technical standpoint.

      I'm sure there is some lawyer there who says "we'll have to go through motions to protect against a lawsuit". But legal reasons do not make for good technology, or good patches that I should apply.

      > We do need the IBPB feature to complete the protection that retpoline
      > gives us â€" it's that or rebuild all of userspace with retpoline.

      That doesn't seem to be right.

      The patches do things like add the MSR writes to the kernel entry/exit points. That doesn't make sense. That says "we're trying to protect the kernel".  We already have retpoline there, with less overhead.

      If this was about flushing the BTB at actual context switches between different users, it would make sense. But that's not at all what the patches do.

      So are you sure about this? For now we can't accept these patches.

      And that's actually ignoring the much _worse_ issue, namely that the whole hardware interface is literally mis-designed.

      It's mis-designed for two major reasons:

      - the "the interface implies Intel will never fix it" reason.

      See the difference between IBRS_ALL and RDCL_NO. One implies Intel will fix something. The other does not.

      - the "there is no performance indicator".

      The whole point of having cpuid and flags from the microarchitecture is that we can use those to make decisions.

      But since we already know that the IBRS overhead is /huge/ on existing hardware, all those hardware capability bits are useless. Nobody will use them, since the cost is too high. So you end up having to look at "which CPU stepping is this" anyway.

      I think we need something better than this I'm afraid. Can you propose something else? Maybe discuss the fixes before submitting further patches.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    11. Re:fun game out of context, totally apropos: by huckamania · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Thanks for the edit, but most adults, and even some children, can do this on their own, usually while in the act of reading.

      Interesting that your sig is labeling anyone who uses the term SJW a fuckwit. I almost self-edited that out. But that's okay cause being consistent is not in any way a trait of progressives.

    12. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by huckamania · · Score: 1

      Not anymore apparently.

    13. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      sure...but you shouldnt be forced to do so eithers

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    14. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by Obfuscant · · Score: 5, Insightful

      and sometimes the only way to shut them the hell up and make them listen is to nuke their ego from orbit and use a few harsh words to drive the point home while you do it.

      There is an old leadership principle which goes something like "praise in public, criticize in private".

      If your goal is to "nuke someone's ego", then you can do that in private. When you do it in public you 1) look like a dick, and 2) scare away people who very well may have good ideas but don't care to deal with your arrogant and insulting outbursts. Volunteers have a limited amount of time, and a lot of them already understand that wasting their time participating in a system where they can expect to get their ego "nuked" isn't worth it to them.

      No, the goal of someone who uses "a few harsh words" in public to criticize others isn't to deal with that one person, it's to demonstrate their own power and scare off anyone else who would dare challenge it.

      This method works perfectly in the Military

      That you think a software development project has the same needs and concerns as a group where people can be and are ordered to their death, and failure to obey orders can result in other people dying, is interesting. The fact that we are having this discussion shows that no, it does not adapt "nicely" to the software development world. And "nicely" may have been deliberately ironic on your part, but I doubt it.

    15. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by BeanThere · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yup, for something like kernel dev you need strong leadership/management, like Linus was, until he somehow got confused weakness is a virtue.

    16. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by Obfuscant · · Score: 2, Insightful

      you need strong leadership/management

      You are confusing "strong leadership" with "be an asshole and denigrate your followers". The two are not synonymous. In fact, those who feel the need to do the latter to be leaders truly are not strong leaders.

    17. Re:fun game out of context, totally apropos: by ragahast · · Score: 1

      Interesting that your sig is labeling anyone who uses the term SJW a fuckwit

      No, it's labelling anyone who uses the term SJW a fuckwit, after correctly identifying it as a synonymous with "I don't like you."

      --
      .:Semper Absurda:.
    18. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by HornWumpus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      James Damour. Fired for being right.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    19. Re:fun game out of context, totally apropos: by The+Cynical+Critic · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The fact that you actually take issue with things as tiny as Linus calling patches he's explained how they've been badly done "garbage" and what they do "insane" or using the expression of drinking the cool-aid when people refuse to see legitimate problems.

      It's one thing to go on one of his really early rants about how he's amazed someone hasn't gotten themselves decapitated by a door and the hypersensitive language policing you're doing. If you really can't stand something as tiny as the slightly harsh language relating to a very serious set of issues then I recommend you get off the internet for a few weeks and try to put your life into perspective because if something as tiny as that irks you, then your priorities could use some re-organizing or you've got a really easy life.

      --
      "Why should I want to make anything up? Life's bad enough as it is without wanting to invent any more of it."
    20. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by Z80a · · Score: 1

      If a woman said you said the N word, you said the N word.

    21. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by xbytor · · Score: 3, Interesting

      > When you do it in public you 1) look like a dick, and 2) scare away people who very well may have good ideas but don't care to deal with your arrogant and insulting outbursts.

      >> This method works perfectly in the Military

      This.The reason you rip someone a new one in front of other people is so that you don't have to do it in private again and again to the other people. I learned this in Basic Training. I got ripped for a mistake and nobody else ever made that mistake again. I figured this out immediately and didn't take it personally.

    22. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by jd · · Score: 1

      DO-178C

      Nuff said.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    23. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by jd · · Score: 1

      Ah, yes, the sort of strength Theo de Raadt has. Explains why OpenBSD is so much more advanced, so much more powerful, and runs on so many more architectures.

      There's a difference between "I am Linus and I am your God" and driving off several of the core developers.

      I rather suspect you have never been in that group, the best coders understand the difference between pride and arrogance. Since you apparently do not, I do not believe you to be one of the best, or even that good.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    24. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by jd · · Score: 1

      Deplorables are indeed a race. The deplorabites landed on Easter Island four hundred thousand years before the Polynesians, where they diverged into a new species before wiping themselves out in a fit of pique.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    25. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by jd · · Score: 1

      Nope, he wasn't fired for any contravention of the Linux CoC.

      Or, as far as I can tell, any other.

      Besides, Employment At Will entitles an employer to fire you for any reason or none. Don't like it? Change the system and ban EAW. Don't blame a company for not using a tool you support in the way you like.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    26. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by jd · · Score: 1

      All geeks are high functioning aspies.

      In fact, one in ten are.

      If you know an alcoholic or a depressive, there's a 64% chance they are, too.

      Neurotypicals are the freaks in this world.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    27. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by jd · · Score: 1

      SJWs are the ones who feel you should judge a patch by the quality and not by genitals.

      Those claiming to be SJWs who want favourable unearned respect aren't SJW at all. What do they care of society or justice?

      Those who condemn groups they don't understand because they don't understand them are like off by one errors, sometimes nothing crashes but it's still a bug.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    28. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      I learned this in Basic Training.

      Basic training is not "the military", it is a very special case of needing to reformulate civilians into functional military personnel as quickly as possible, and to get those who cannot adapt to leave, before moving them on to more advanced training. It's called "boot camp" for a reason. It lasts for just a few weeks, compared to the rest of an enlistment.

      If you find your superiors in an active duty or reserve unit acting like basic training NCOs and continually trying to break you down, then they are doing it wrong, and people who have had a lot of money and time invested in their training will muster out at their next opportunity. In fact, if you read what the best military leaders say about leadership, you'll learn that being an asshole to your subordinates is NOT good leadership in any way.

      Software development groups are not "basic training", there is no "life or death" aspect to it, and actively trying to get people to leave is counter-productive. Chasing people away who won't put up with your bullshit means you may chase away the people who have the time and willingness to learn -- if you had been a good enough leader to help them do so. What you will wind up with are a group of people just like you -- who think that being an asshole is a good way to manage other people.

    29. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by bistromath007 · · Score: 1

      As a person with a disability of executive and cognitive function, I find it very insulting that people try to protect me by yanking words out of people's mouths.

    30. Re:fun game out of context, totally apropos: by gweihir · · Score: 1

      "I don't like you."

      Thanks, I do not like you either. But I prefer to call you a "fuckup", which is just an accurate description, of course and certainly not an insult (or that is how it would be if I were a dishonorable, dishonest, manipulative scum SJW...).

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    31. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Ah, _those_. I love it when I run into these as an accademic teacher, because then I know who to use as benchmark for the failed grade. Otherwise, these people are a pest.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    32. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by gweihir · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The reason you rip someone a new one in front of other people is so that you don't have to do it in private again and again to the other people. I learned this in Basic Training. I got ripped for a mistake and nobody else ever made that mistake again. I figured this out immediately and didn't take it personally.

      And that makes you an adult. The SJW scum that want to eliminate all harsh language by force are not.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    33. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by gweihir · · Score: 1

      I do hope that Linus looks at this for a while and then forks the kernel to end this stupidity. Come to think of, if he still holds the copyright to the overall thing, he may be able to make the JSWs needing to fork the kernel.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    34. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by astrofurter · · Score: 1

      Shouldn't it be SJT rather than SJW? "Social Just-us Terrorist".

    35. Re:fun game out of context, totally apropos: by piojo · · Score: 1

      I don't know that that conveys the same thing. To start, I agree with you about some of it. But when I say "bullshit" or "that's insane" to my boss (it's a good working relationship), it means "that seems so emphatically wrong that my normal modes of expression don't cover it". It's not the same meaning as "that's not right", though in this case I didn't understand why he needed to claim that degree of wrongness. (There are other cases where he might need to say BULLSHIT but not this one.) More importantly, he's alleging bad faith. That was actually the most polite part of his criticism, but it's a rather serious thing to say. It's orthogonal to niceness or rudeness, though. It's not a matter that would be resolved by being nicer.

      And "that seems to be wrong" is a culturally risky thing to say. I worked with a programmer from another country that would ignore anything that was couched that way. I had to tell him "this is wrong, please do X instead (and please fix it now)". Not to mention that people with autism might not get it. That's an extreme case, but deferential politeness has no place in international communication.

      TL;DR: yeah, he gets carried away with his emotions, but you can't tone it down that far without actually losing useful information.

      --
      A cat can't teach a dog to bark.
    36. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by astrofurter · · Score: 1

      How is calling a poor white person a "redneck" different than calling a poor black person a "nlgger"? Both are racial and class slurs. Both are used jokingly for in-group communication. Both are deeply offensive when used by outsiders.

      If you go to a poor black neighborhood and call someone a "nlgger", you're likely going to get beat up. If you go to a poor white neighborhood and call someone a "redneck", you're likely going to get beat up.

    37. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by astrofurter · · Score: 1

      Ass-burgers syndrome is just medicalization of social difference. Like many aspects of official psychiatry it is a tool for oppression.

    38. Re:fun game out of context, totally apropos: by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Strong language can be fine when you know the person, when you are in a private office etc. This CoC is specifically about public facing members of the project using official email/social media accounts or hosting official events, so it's a little different.

      You have a point about less direct language though, especially for people with austism. It's a very tricky one but at least initially erring on the side of caution seems like a good idea.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    39. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by cyber-vandal · · Score: 1

      Poor whites have definitely suffered all of that treatment by their "betters" for a great deal longer than the USA has existed. Have a look at the history of Europe sometime.

    40. Re:fun game out of context, totally apropos: by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the edit, but most adults, and even some children, can do this on their own, usually while in the act of reading.

      Yeah most adults could probably ignore people being dicks for no reason. That doesn't mean they should tollerate them.

    41. Re:fun game out of context, totally apropos: by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      The fact that you actually take issue with things as tiny as Linus calling patches he's explained how they've been badly done "garbage"

      Oh tip of the iceberg. The entire context of most of those posts are written in a truly dickish way for no reason what so ever. You can call something garbage without being a dick about it.

      I said you meaning you specifically, not Linus, clearly he wasn't capable of that.

    42. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      James Damour. Fired for being right.

      while also being in the wrong company.

    43. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by drewlake2000 · · Score: 1

      "This method works perfectly in the Military (has for literal centuries), and adapts nicely to the dev world."

      Does it though? or is it confirmation bias. If you chew them out when they are at their worst they improve. Well they were going to improve anyway, the aggressive attitude towards them may have helped, or it may have hindered.

    44. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      He was fired for writing a horribly divisive memo, which, to add insult to injury was poorly researched (about the only way I can think of in which he was "right" was as in "right wing", but he wasn't fired for being right wing either, just for making Google look like a hotbed of Gamergate type morons.)

      He wasn't fired for being a white person criticizing a non-white person, as you were asked. So he's a terrible example to use.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    45. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by Reziac · · Score: 1

      Yep. In my business I frequently have to deal with clients who know almost nothing, have little or no actual experience, but they've read How It Should Be Done and by damn that's what they want, which will end in disaster. And there is no teaching them better by kindly means, because they read it in a book, so it must be so. Over the decades I developed a strategy of simply talking over the top of them until they give up and listen -- and then they actually learn something, go away happy, and do not become or experience problems.

      And I think the fact that their tender feels are ignored and trampled as unimportant to the topic at hand is actually part of why it works.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    46. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by Agent0013 · · Score: 1

      SJWs are the ones who feel you should judge a patch by the quality and not by genitals.

      I would disagree with that. I see SJW's as primarily getting offended at things that have bother nobody, but they need to show that it could be offensive to someone so they become offended at it in principle just for "reasons".

      So it is less about quality, and more about finding any reason at all to get offended at other people.

      --

      -- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
    47. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by silanea · · Score: 1

      That you think a software development project has the same needs and concerns as a group where [...] failure to obey orders can result in other people dying, [...]

      You clearly have no idea how many lives depend directly or, much more importantly, indirectly on software. I absolutely agree with PP: Much more of the software world should be run in the explicit understanding that every bug, every breakage has the potential to devastate a company or kill a person. Especially in FOSS you never know who uses your code for which purpose.

      Oh, and btw:

      [... C]oders who claimed no company affiliation, or for whom an affiliation could not be determined, accounted for just 16.4 per cent of the total number of contributions to the kernel. Independent consultants made up another 2.5 per cent. The rest all came from coders working on behalf of companies large and small. [...]

      These are numbers from 2015, I would be surprised if the corporate percentage was not much higher today. The Linux kernel has not been a volunteer project for many years, and I for one believe that it shows in the increased quality. (nVidia and Intel notwithstanding)

      --
      Rudolf Hess edited Mein Kampf. He was the very first grammar nazi.
    48. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by silanea · · Score: 1

      Read Linus' comments in context. There are very few instances where he blasts the person instead of the patch, and in those cases there usually has been a long prologue in which the other party proved immune to feedback or reason. And I have yet to find an instance of Linus going nuclear on a new or inexperienced contributor. The people he blasts usually are seasoned kernel developers, often years-long maintainers – people who really ought to have known better, and they mostly say as much themselves afterwards. Strong leadership also means holding people accountable. And this is what he does.

      --
      Rudolf Hess edited Mein Kampf. He was the very first grammar nazi.
    49. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by jd · · Score: 1

      See "development branch" in source control.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    50. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by jd · · Score: 1

      Bull. The genetic and neurologic differences are established.

      Sorry, do your homework and don't talk about us aspies until you have.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    51. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by jd · · Score: 1

      Incorrect. You misread the fallacy and committed several of your own.

      https://thebestschools.org/mag...

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik...

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    52. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by jd · · Score: 1

      That's not social justice. It's only social justice if there's provable harm to a society. Engels was a social justice warrior because he was a warrior for social justice. The origin of the name. Joseph Rowntree and Robert Owen fought for social justice.

      Emily Pankhurst favoured methods I'd never agree to, but she wanted social justice.

      How are these not social justice warriors?

      And yet none were snowflakes, only Emily was offensive, none sought issues, they found them calmly, logically and analytically.

      So what if Trump uses a different definition? If he called an apple an orange, would that change the taste? What does it matter what the far right says? Crayon on the dictionary alters nothing.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    53. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by Agent0013 · · Score: 1

      The definition I use is one I made up based on the people I see in that role. They are never doing it for the right reasons. The Redskins name change was a paid for group to show up and protest for social justice. That when the name redskin came from native americans to start with and is not offensive to people. But because a group of white SJW's decide that should be offensive, they will take care of it for the poor stupid indian who can't fix their own problems.

      To me it seems as if the SJW movement is actualy racist in it's motivations. The poor sub-humans and women need our help. Anyway, I find it false. And the people I see promoting that view turn out to be hipocrites or lyers who seemed to be plotting things all along.

      --

      -- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
    54. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by jd · · Score: 1

      So you're saying you agree with me, is what I'm seeing. You're not using a traditional definition of social justice, but rather you're finding that there is an identifiable category of people who are looking for trouble, not justice. You're calling them SJWs because you have to call them something and others have used SJW in that manner.

      I have no problems with you being angry with abusers or troublemakers of that sort. More power to you. If you need suggestions, I would willingly help with anything that deals with those seeking to cause actual harm for fun.

      I do disagree with the use of SJW, but if that's the term you find works best for you, please understand some of us traditionalists will be using a different definition. I have no problems working with you or others on how to distinguish, maybe we should use SJW* for the traditional concept of someone bugfixing real social issues rather than adding defects.

      If everyone is on-board with that, then there's no confusion. One lot add problems, one lot remove them, and we can say who does what.

      Again, if you want to kick over troublemakers and social defect warriors, whatever name you give them, let me know what help you want from me. It's the ones finding actual problems and offering actual solutions that I don't want tangled up in that.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    55. Re: fun game out of context, totally apropos: by jd · · Score: 1

      I do my homework, from the research journals not Wikipedia.

      And there are 65 well-established genes for Autism specifically (Asperger's no longer exists as an official diagnosis and hasn't since DSM-V) and 12 that are shared with 5 related conditions such as schizophrenia.

      Twin studies and familial studies, along with diagnosed cases and control groups were involved in numerous studies. These studies have been consistent and clear.

      This is established, peer-reviewed and documented. Not by Wikipedia editors but geneticists. You know, people who know what they're doing. You can argue theories, but you can't argue facts.

      fMRI studies have confirmed, since 2004, that the disorder is structural and closely related to schizophrenia. This isn't open to interpretation, because these studies are reproducible and were properly carried out, analyzed and controlled. You can talk about frozen salmon all you like, it doesn't apply.

      MRI studies have indicated that there is a structural difference.

      Repetitive transcranial magnetic stimulation studies indicate adverse effects by people with autism spectrum disorders. Specifically. In other words, no we're not bloody well making it up, this is reality. Reality is not a democracy, it is what it is, what you like has no bearing on that.

      Blood samples taken from infants can test for autism with near-100% accuracy. How can anyone say that's psychological? Those blood tests look for specific proteins expected to be mis-folded according to the genetic information. Ergo, the genetic information is solid. Feel free to go to the researchers and scream at them that their blood test is a fraud, because if autism isn't genetic then it would be. You would still be wrong and you would get no sympathy from anyone when you're stewing in HMP after security was called.

      Autism runs in families, it is identifiable in a blood screen in infancy (possibly even pre-birth), never develops in later life (it's there from birth or not at all) and appears in genetic and neurological tests.

      My guess is that it's probably not a result of environment. As in there's bugger all chance of that.

      These are the facts. And you offer... Wikipedia.

      Ok. I can't convince someone who limits themselves to such theories, all I can do is present the facts. You ignoring them is your problem, not your privilege.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    56. Re:fun game out of context, totally apropos: by ragahast · · Score: 1

      Random name-calling, totally orthogonal to the comment thread, is an interesting use of your time.

      --
      .:Semper Absurda:.
  13. Level of experience? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    So if I noob it up on the kernel mailing list none of the senior engineers with salaried work to do can tell me to fuck off? Sweet!

    The unintended consequence of this will be that formerly open source but mission critical projects will just go into closed development like Android to keep the noobs and trolls out.

  14. Re:Wtf by CoolVibe · · Score: 1

    I bet they assume you can do it by using a crap-ton of unicode emojis. Or something.

  15. It's going to be a bad thing by MikeRT · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is going to be what is used most of the time:

    * Using welcoming and inclusive language

    What that actually means in practice is that you cannot safely go through someone's code review and leave honest comments that demonstrate that the product is fundamentally bad. Welcoming and inclusive refer to a specific emotion which is to make things as warm and bubbly and positive as you can. Well, a lot of the time you can't do that.

    What they want is to create for FOSS the same space they have in corporate America where HR, not line management, deals with things like personality conflicts that blow up. It's not going to make people polite, it's going to make people afraid to just be blunt with active, thin-skinned people who cannot stand to hear that their contribution is not good enough.

    1. Re:It's going to be a bad thing by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      Give us a specific example of a flaw that can't be addressed in a way that is compatible with "using welcoming and inclusive language".

      I'll see if I can address it in a way that meets those requirements if you give me an example.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    2. Re:It's going to be a bad thing by archer,+the · · Score: 1

      It's possible to be blunt without being offensive:

      "This code is using raw pointers to objects. It should have shared_ptr or unique_ptr instances to make sure the objects are deleted once and only once."

      "This loop will exceed the size of the array because the array wasn't properly allocated at line N."

      No need to talk about the person at all. Just factually state the improper behavior of the code.

    3. Re:It's going to be a bad thing by guruevi · · Score: 2

      http://thedailywtf.com/

      Take your pick. Most of those can only be described with: WTF which is not very welcoming or inclusive.

      I'm sure you could flower it up and give people a short manual on how to code correctly every single fucking time they have to correct something.

      Sometimes short and to the point is better, faster, easier and more productive than "oh, this code is somewhat unreadable and you're doing it in a way I would not recommend people do code, not to say you do it all the time, but ... now don't get triggered, this isn't criticism, we're just doing a constructive conversation".

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    4. Re:It's going to be a bad thing by guruevi · · Score: 1

      I don't think there are many examples of people saying other people suck because their code is bad.

      Even the examples you give is more of a tutorial and feedback your teacher gives you. If I have to write a tutorial every time something is wrong, I'd be writing all day long.

      Sometimes, short, blunt and to the point does more. If you tell some people 'softly' how to do things, they think they did a pretty good job and that the issues are only minor.

      "This code is using raw pointers to objects" is not a criticism, it could be legitimate (I know), it could be a question or statement but it certainly doesn't imply that it's wrong. "It should have" means that it's okay to do y for now but in the future it's better to do x.

      "Look at your code, this will burn in production, it should be ripped out and never be seen again" is a viable statement, it teaches people to think about their problem (rather than just following what you say) and sure it's not very "nice" or SJW approved.

      Same for your loop example, perhaps the loop won't exceed the size of the array because a break/goto statement. Then again, why would I have to go dig out what line number it's allocated at?

      Just say: "Take a timeout and think about that loop" is not very nice, it's patronizing but again, it's necessary for coders to learn.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    5. Re:It's going to be a bad thing by gweihir · · Score: 1

      You obviously have not ever reviewed really bad code. The thing is that it takes very long to review in the form you describe. This is a DoS attack on the reviewer. Reviewers must be far faster than contributors or the system breaks down. That also means you cannot include detailed instructions on how to fix things. And it means you cannot do education of the incompetent.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    6. Re:It's going to be a bad thing by gweihir · · Score: 1

      I don't think there are many examples of people saying other people suck because their code is bad.

      No, because that does not make sense. But people often suck _and_ their code is bad in addition. But there is a distinct correlation between the two, because people that do not suck tend to learn from experience and tend to get good at things over time. Quite a few people that suck already know everything (they think) or it is always somebody else's fault. Hence they are incapable of learning and never get good at anything.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    7. Re:It's going to be a bad thing by sexconker · · Score: 1

      Any reference to master / slave IDE devices?

      Any reference to WD Black drives?

  16. Somehow it doesn't surprise me by Sqreater · · Score: 1, Funny

    ...that a software community should try to make of people a piece of software. Good luck with the debugging.

    --
    E Proelio Veritas.
  17. Re:Good. by Junta · · Score: 1

    Sure, you should be able to behave. In an open source endeavor, I see a formal document saying so as superfluous. You want to kick out someone for being a bad actor, kick them out. It's not like they can come back and sue you for not accepting their contributions. Professional environments engage in codifying a code of conduct because they want things as clear as possible to protect against wrongful termination suits if they decide they need to terminate someone for being a racist. If the kernel community wants to disassociate from a jerk, they shouldn't need a document to justify that action.

    Formality in various forms can cripple open source communities. It is a significant contributor to bureaucracy.

    --
    XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
  18. Gender agreement in writing by tepples · · Score: 1

    Documentation cares about gender. In many languages, many other words in a sentence have to agree in gender with the noun they relate to. The most common of these is pronouns ("he" or "she"), but they also include occupation words, adjectives, and sometimes even verbs and second-person pronouns ("you"). Use a noun of a different gender in Spanish, Polish, or Hebrew, for instance, and you change endings of a lot of the words in the sentence. So in order to say anything substantial in those languages about a person who contributed code to Linux, you have to make the other words agree with the contributor's gender. They require this in part because the word order in those languages is not quite as that of English.

    The hard part is when the "unsure" gender gets translated to languages other than English. Though English allows use of the plural pronoun "they" to refer to singular animate indefinite gender, and adjectives don't agree, many languages lack an analogous provision for nonbinary or unspecified gender. In Spanish, all nouns are -o or -a; in French, bare or -e; in Hebrew, bare or -a. What should be used when describing the contributions of a nonbinary contributor?

    1. Re:Gender agreement in writing by religionofpeas · · Score: 1

      What should be used when describing the contributions of a nonbinary contributor?

      Their name/alias/e-mail ? Most the documentation should be about the code, not the contributor. Can you point to some docs where gender pronouns are required ?

    2. Re:Gender agreement in writing by tepples · · Score: 1

      Their name/alias/e-mail ?

      In a sentence containing both a "name/alias/e-mail" and an occupation, adjective, or verb that agrees with said "name/alias/e-mail", which gender form of said occupation, adjective, or verb should be used?

      Most the documentation should be about the code, not the contributor.

      Most, but not all. Documentation must credit the author of the documentation and in some cases the authors of the code, as copyright in the code and documentation initially vests in said authors, and credit is usually a condition for licensing said copyrights.

      Can you point to some docs where gender pronouns are required ?

      As I wrote above, pronouns are not the only issue. Occupation words in some languages are gendered. Those languages have no generic word for (say) "programmer", only "programmer identifying as male" and "programmer identifying as female", because the noun agrees with the person's gender. Other languages conjugate verbs for gender. This means they have no generic word for (say) "designed", only "identifies as male and designed" and "identifies as female and designed", because the verb agrees with the person's gender.

      Do you need examples of specific documents about the Linux kernel that would use gendered pronouns, gendered occupation words, or gendered verbs if translated out of English?

    3. Re: Gender agreement in writing by CoolVibe · · Score: 1

      We're adding kernel contributed bios in the documentation now? Having to use a personal pronoun in a technical doc is incredibly rare.

  19. Demolition Man supposed to be an utopia by datalife · · Score: 1

    Welcome to the real world, Det. John Spartan
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    Thank you. f**ing SJWs --- You got fined for violating the verbal morality statute

    --
    There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary and those who don't.
  20. Re:Bye bye linux by jellomizer · · Score: 1

    Why?
    Is the Rust group full of people who's demographics people were insulted?

    There is a difference between judging a particular idea and deeming it wrong vs. insulting a person due to their demographic, psychological and biological situation.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
  21. Long Overdue by hduff · · Score: 1

    It's pretty obvious who the asshats in the community are, now we just need to hope that the social justice warriors don't go overboard and maybe we can get some useful, positive change.

    --
    "I believe in Karma. That means I can do bad things to people all day long and I assume they deserve it." : Dogbert
    1. Re:Long Overdue by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Ahahahahahah, you are cute!

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  22. No, I didn't. by houghi · · Score: 1

    I had no code of conduct. I do not have one now. I use Lunux so I am de facto part of said community.

    What is next: white males have a new code of conduct?

    So fuck off with your code of conduct. I do not even vare how good it is and how much I might agree with it. I will never be ok with any opt-out.

    --
    Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    1. Re:No, I didn't. by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      I had no code of conduct. I do not have one now. I use Lunux so I am de facto part of said community.

      Using someone's software does not make you a part of the software developer community.

  23. " thoughtless use of pronouns" by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 1

    Yeah, that's right, I said 'you' ... bwa ha ha! Stick that in your code of conduct!

  24. Somebody Else's Problem by nagora · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The kernel is an engineering project. As such, meritocracy is the only sane way to run it - just like building bridges or ships - if your code is good then it's in, no matter who you are or what you or anyone else identifies you as. There's simply no reason to accept someone or their work if it's sub-standard no matter how hard their lives have been (or are perceived to have been).

    The issue of diversity is a social issue and has to be/needs to be solved elsewhere.

    --
    "Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
    1. Re:Somebody Else's Problem by datalife · · Score: 3, Informative

      The issue of diversity is a social issue and has to be/needs to be solved elsewhere.

      Exactly...

      On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog.

      Or cares about it in the LKML

      --
      There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary and those who don't.
    2. Re:Somebody Else's Problem by ooloorie · · Score: 2, Insightful

      On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog.

      Leftists who score high in the victim hierarchy are going to let you know whether you want to or not. That's so that they can then attribute anything negative you say to or about them to your supposed prejudice and bias.

    3. Re:Somebody Else's Problem by euxneks · · Score: 1

      [...]There's simply no reason to accept someone or their work if it's sub-standard no matter how hard their lives have been (or are perceived to have been).

      The issue of diversity is a social issue and has to be/needs to be solved elsewhere.

      Well for one, I don't think this is a document saying they have to accept all changes that anyone makes. It's saying: be nice about rejecting their shit. For two, open source software is an inherently social thing. You're building something with people for people. There's merit in realizing that communication and fostering healthy social atmosphere will lead to better software and a better community. No-one complained with i18n or a11y, because it is a good thing. Likewise, it is good to not be a dick about stuff.

      --
      in girum imus nocte et consumimur igni
    4. Re:Somebody Else's Problem by Phillip2 · · Score: 1

      "if your code is good then it's in"

      This is not enough. I mean, you code might be excellent, but then it your copied it from someone else who has copyright on it, that is a bad thing. So, it's not just about code, it's about a legal and social context also.

      The idea behind a code of conduct, is not to allow bad code in, but to make sure that everyone has a welcoming environment. That is, to provide a social context where all code can come in, not just some. In that sense, it is to enable a meritocracy.

    5. Re:Somebody Else's Problem by dargaud · · Score: 1

      What, you don't vote on who should pilot the airplane when you get on board ? But democracy is the superior way !

      --
      Non-Linux Penguins ?
    6. Re:Somebody Else's Problem by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Indeed. Getting your code in or not is not a recognition (or not) of your worth as a person, it is a judgement on the suitability of your code. Getting merit as an engineer must be based on the quality of your work. Otherwise, we may just start to, say, handing drivers licenses, MD qualifications, pilot licenses, etc. to everybody to not exclude anybody.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  25. Linus' seat is still warm. by houghi · · Score: 3, Funny

    He is hardly gone and now this. The PC-police must having their iltimate orgasm. What the fuck where they smoking?

    Cunts. The lot of them. And not in the nice Australian way.

    --
    Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
  26. Re:The death of Linux by CoolVibe · · Score: 1

    With baited breath I await the first pull requests that removes offensive words like "master" and "slave". And then the incredible outage that occurs because disks don't work anymore.

  27. Get woke, go broke. by William+Baric · · Score: 1

    Pushing for the PC agenda in order to please feminists and leftists generally ends up badly.

  28. Re:WTF is wrong with this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    No one is fooled by claims that this is just "being encouraged to treat other people decently." It's about power and control and the people seeking it are not benevolent. They are hate filled activists and they have targets in mind.

  29. Oh my.... by Rick+Zeman · · Score: 1

    Level of experience? Just wait til the first newbies flood in. That's be the first tenet to be violated.

  30. Re:WTF is wrong with this? by sinij · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Social Justice Warriors advocate social justice in the same way as The National Socialist German Worker's Party advocated rights of Jewish workers in Germany.

  31. Neither of those examples work by MikeRT · · Score: 1

    The absolute requirement to address people with welcoming and inclusive language means that even this is not possible:

    Mauro, I have reviewed your code and have determined that you broke user space. You know, from previous conversations, that we consider that to be a bug no matter what reasoning you have. I also reviewed your submission and in addition to violating our well-established policy on not breaking user space, your submission was also not up to the standards we expect from someone in your position. You will fix this and stop dissembling about your role in causing grief to downstream users or we will have to reconsider your position on the team. -Linus

  32. Re:Good. by cascadingstylesheet · · Score: 1

    If you can behave to the standards which would be required in literally any professional workplace in 2018, you don't need to be involved. If you can't do that, there are plenty of forums to write angry posts about SJWs while you wrote your own OS.

    That's kind of an odd statement, regardless of your feelings.

    The "meritocracy" is who built Linux. The SJWs didn't.

  33. Re:Bye bye linux by Comrade+Ogilvy · · Score: 1

    When the culture of the group says it is okay to make ad hominem attacks, then questions of motives are inevitable. Cut the gordian knot by talking about code by discussing the actual code and not the people writing it.

  34. Re:Good. by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

    We were here first. Get the hell off my lawn.

    It's not your lawn, and it never was. It's the users' lawn. That's why it's GPL-licensed. Or alternately, it's the users' lawn because it's GPL'd. Either way... still not yours.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  35. Either that... by YuppieScum · · Score: 1

    ...or there's a pod under his bed.

    --
    This sig left unintentionally blank.
  36. The bullied becoming the bullies? by euxneks · · Score: 1

    How many of you keyboard warriors complaining about "people's feelings" were abused in high school? Do you remember that shit? This is about defining that bad behaviour and excising it to make a healthier community. You can still reject code. You can still reject changes. You just can't be an asshole/bully about it.

    --
    in girum imus nocte et consumimur igni
  37. The camel's nose in the tent. What to do? by Larsen+E+Whipsnade · · Score: 2

    Can any project prosper when technical success is no longer top priority?

    Is there any way of forking off the whole damn thing to leave the SJWs to flounder in their own safe space? Linus has capitulated. I liked him better as a competent asshole than in his new incarnation as a wimp. But NO ONE OWNS THE CODE. Or something. These open source licenses confuse me.

    Forking is divisive and fragmenting, you say? Compared to what?

    1. Re:The camel's nose in the tent. What to do? by IGnatius+T+Foobar · · Score: 1

      Linus was a competent and effective leader. One of the reasons he was such a great leader is because he did NOT waste his time dealing with primate politics. Now he's been bullied into capitulating to the "muh feelingz!" people, the project WILL suffer.

      --
      Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
  38. "Run off all the people writing the code" by Larsen+E+Whipsnade · · Score: 1

    Not a problem, so long as they can all gather and regroup somewhere else.

    Here's a name for the new fork of the Linux kernel: Galt's Gulch.

  39. And the bias comes out by MikeRT · · Score: 1

    berating minorities who are showing interest in technology

    95% of the berating about race is people like you bemoaning the presence of so many white people in the space. The reason why a non-white getting berated and abused by a white person in these spaces makes headlines is because it's a "man bites dog story" compared to the other way around.

    1. Re:And the bias comes out by Morgon · · Score: 1

      Wow, that's quite the stretch. I have been witness to environments where someone's race/gender/orientation have been either the sole basis for, or an amplifier to, someone's horrible behavior towards another. I don't see it much "the other way around" in professional contexts.

      I'm not bemoaning anything, for the record. However, I do think we should be encouraging and supporting those from other cultures and backgrounds to take part in our technical future. But not everyone is a robot and can just "shrug off" abusive behavior, especially when they're just starting out; I just don't see how it's a negative to be understanding of another.

      --
      [DISCLAIMER: This post is a work of satire and should not be misconstrued as a holy text upon which to base a religion.]
  40. A brilliant yet meek individual? by Larsen+E+Whipsnade · · Score: 2

    I've known a few brilliant individuals. I've known many meek individuals. But I've yet to encounter both traits in the same person.

    (Then again, how would I know?)

    Meekness doesn't work. Sooner or later, a brilliant individual will figure this out.

    1. Re:A brilliant yet meek individual? by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      'So what if the meek inherit the earth. We'll just take it back...Bunch of meeks.'

      Emo

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  41. Lengthy and vague - a bad combination by Larsen+E+Whipsnade · · Score: 2

    Any coder worth his salt knows this is a red flag.

    Anyone who doesn't see this is not a good coder.

    1. Re:Lengthy and vague - a bad combination by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Indeed. Perverted incentives and completely unsuitable priorities. A technological project cannot succeed with that.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  42. Solving the Wrong Problem by WSH · · Score: 2

    This is not going to work because the real problem is about time. It takes significantly longer to be nice and show patience than it does to be mean and to the point. Someone with Linus' responsibilities just isn't ever going to feel like they have the time to be nice to everybody. If you want to improve peoples' attitudes in something as huge as the kernel community, than you need to change the heirachical structure to something with a lot more depth. Linus shouldn't be dealing with 2/3 of the people he is currently dealing with. If he isn't directly interacting with them, then they won't be getting offended by him either. Those people should be interacting solely with developers with less responsibility and therefore more time to be nice.

    --
    >if jackasses could fly this place would be an airport...
  43. It's over by Ignatius · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The extremists from the left, the cultural Marxists, the SJWs have so far destroyed anything they got their hands on: Academia, schools, the media. Linux will be no exception.

    If there is any doubt on their agenda, read "The Post-Meritocracy Manifesto", but in fact, the title says it all. What we're experiencing is a Maoist cultural revolution and the new mob rulers will install themselves in each and every corner of society.

    1. Re:It's over by ljw1004 · · Score: 1

      If there is any doubt on their agenda, read "The Post-Meritocracy Manifesto", but in fact, the title says it all.

      As you suggested, I did read the manifesto https://postmeritocracy.org/.

      I'd say the title doesn't say it all, nor even much of it -- the title seems to be intentionally written to sound paradoxical and so entice you to read further. Based on the first four paragraphs, I think the title would be more accurate (but more wordy) if it said "Meritocracy is obviously a good principle in theory -- but in practice the actual measurement of merit has been so inaccurate and biased that we could collectively be more productive if we think through what we're trying to achieve and figure out other principles that are more practically effective."

      Tell me: which specific bullet-points or sentences in that manifesto did you disagree with? Or did you disagree with implications or consequences of the manifesto rather than something written in it?

    2. Re:It's over by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      "We live in a meritocracy" is just a way for bigots to say "ciswhite hetmales are better than every other demographic" without sounding like an outright bigot.

      And, let's be honest, meritocracy is immediately debunked by 4 words.

      "Donald Trump is President"

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    3. Re:It's over by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      He was, by far, the best choice of the electable candidates.

      I don't know what tech world you live in, but 'cis straight white males' aren't even a majority. Take the 'white' out, or call asians 'white'.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    4. Re:It's over by Ignatius · · Score: 1

      We've read similar wording a thousand times, be it in academia, in schools or in corporate codes of conduct and the purpose is always the same:

      It's a claim to power. It's an attempt to wrest control over projects from its creators. Those who have the skill, the talent and diligence to create valuable stuff should submit to the new masters by virtue of their claimed "moral superiority". And this "moral superiority" - backed by virtual or actual lynch mobs - is all they bring to the party. They usually have neither the skill, talent nor diligence to contribute anything valuable to the project - if they would, they would try to build a reputation the old fashioned way: by hard work and quality contributions. Instead, they want positions as "Chief diversity officers", political commissars and blockwarts - and obviously, merit can have nothing to do with it.

      In the field of open source software, if anyone is uncontent with how a project is run, he (or rather she) is free to make her own fork and try to do a better job. But that is not what they want. It not about a job, nor about a piece of work - it's about control over other people. This is their one and only goal. The project itself is but a vehicle to this, and will be driven down and rendered dysfunctional in the process, just as the universities have been, only this time, it will take mere months instead of decades, as no diplomas, tenures and wealthy university funds are at line - the only currency in the Open Source world is the very meritocratic reputation, they set out to destroy. Once it's gone, the most valuable contributors will leave for greener pastures.

    5. Re:It's over by ljw1004 · · Score: 1

      Tell me: which specific bullet-points or sentences in that manifesto did you disagree with? Or did you disagree with implications or consequences of the manifesto rather than something written in it?

      We've read similar wording a thousand times, be it in academia, in schools or in corporate codes of conduct and the purpose is always the same ...

      Should I understand from the way you chose to answer that you don't disagree with any individual bullet-points or sentences in the manifesto, but you do disagree with the implications and consequences (and also motives)?

    6. Re:It's over by Ignatius · · Score: 1

      OK, I bite ...

      - We do not believe that our value as human beings is intrinsically tied to our value as knowledge workers. Our professions do not define us; we are more than the work we do.

      A strawman. An open source project is not a country. If you can't play football, there is not much point in joining a football team. You can still be a valuable human being - but probably not a valuable member of this particular team.

      - We believe that interpersonal skills are at least as important as technical skills.

      In a technical project? Most certainly not. Without technical skills there is no project to begin with.

      - We can add the most value as professionals by drawing on the diversity of our identities, backgrounds, experiences, and perspectives.

      No you cannot. The most value in a technical project is invariably added by your technical contributions. " identities" (leftist newspeak for race and sex) add nothing, (non technical) backgrounds and experiences might add a little in some circumstances (internationalisation, barrier free access, etc.).

      Homogeneity is an antipattern.

      This is an anti-statement.

      - We can be successful while leading rich, full lives. Our success and value is not dependent on exerting all of our energy on contributing to software.

      This is up to you. Your value to the project and thus within the project will depend on your contribution, however.

      We have the obligation to use our positions of privilege, however tenuous, to improve the lives of others.

      No. You have an obligation not to harm others, but that's it.

      - We must make room for people who are not like us to enter our field and succeed there. This means not only inviting them in, but making sure that they are supported and empowered.

      No. We don't have to "make room" for anyone. Anyone can join, but there is no entitlement to anything. Just like a tennis club does not have to "make room" for football players.

      - We have an ethical responsibility to refuse to work on software that will negatively impact the well-being of other people.

      This is utter BS. e.g. Every OS software alternative hurts the well-being of ppl. trying to make a living from proprietary software in the same field. Almost anything can be used for good and evil purposes.

      - We acknowledge the value of non-technical contributors as equal to the value of technical contributors.

      Most certainly not. The value of technical contributors in a technical project is obviously higher. Again, a software project is not a country.

      - We understand that working in our field is a privilege, not a right.

      Everyone is free to work on or start his own OS project, so yeah, of course it's a right, namely free speech and freedom of expression. The SJW want to make it a "privilege" by claiming the power to deny you this right.

      - The negative impact of toxic people in the workplace or the larger community is not offset by their technical contributions.

      I understand toxic substances, maybe even a "toxic" environment, put toxic people? What do they mean by that? "unworthy life", "vermin" that need to be exterminated or at least silenced - just by virtue of not agreeing with them. And they claim moral superiority? Disgusting.

      - We are devoted to practicing compassion and not contempt.

      Yeah, right!

      We refuse to belittle other people because of their choices of tools, techniques, or languages.

      No, you belittle them because of their opinions, their personality or how the go about their own projects, even if they make their work available to you free of charge and without even having to ask.

      - The field of software development embraces technical change, and is made better by also accepting social change.

      "social change" here means nothing less than "our rule".

      - We strive to reflect our values in everything that we do. We recognize that values that are espoused but not practiced are not values at all.

      In the light of the above, I can only interpret this as a threat.

    7. Re:It's over by ljw1004 · · Score: 1

      Thanks. Let me try to write what you said, sticking to facts and neutral POV. I tried to remove those of your answers which didn't seem to be factual statements of agreement/disagreement with the literal text that was written, but might have made some mistakes.

      • * We believe that interpersonal skills are at least as important as technical skills. - You believe instead that technical skills are more important than technical skills (either in software in general, or OSS in general, or Linux in particular? unclear).
      • * We can add the most value as professionals by drawing on the diversity... - About race/sex diversity, you believe that the quantity/quality of a team's technical contributions is unaffected by this. About background/international diversity, you believe that the quantity/quality of a team's technical contributions is increased a little by this in some areas. (I'm reluctant to introduce the word "team" here, but it's the cleanest way I can see to define the question and then reconcile your answer. I could have talked about "contributor-pool" but then we'd get into subtle definitions.)
      • * We have the obligation to use our positions of privilege, however tenuous, to improve the lives of others. - You believe instead that there is no such obligation. (or, I guess, you believe it's an acceptable exercise of free speech for a project to adopt this as a rule, but you believe the quality of the project will suffer for it).
      • * We must make room for people who are not like us to enter our field and succeed there. - You believe instead that there's no obligation on anyone to make room.
      • * We have an ethical responsibility to refuse to work on software that will negatively impact the well-being of other people. - You instead believe there is no such ethical responsibility, maybe because every action has some positive and some negative impact. (It was unclear to me how this relates - is there a logical step which says "anything which can be used for good and bad obviates the developer of evaluating the good/bad likely effects because that's solely down to the users"?)
      • * We acknowledge the value of non-technical contributors as equal to the value of technical contributors. - You believe instead that that value of technical contributors is higher.
      • * We understand that working in our field is a privilege, not a right. - You instead believe that working in OSS is a right, indeed just a special case of the freedom of speech+expression. (I don't think that you and the manifesto have the same definition of "field" and "work" on this point?)
      • * The negative impact of toxic people in the workplace or the larger community is not offset by their technical contributions. - You instead believe that "toxic person" is too loaded/dangerous a term to ever be used (in this context? or in general? unclear).

      (I'm not trying to argue anything here nor disagree with you. I'm trying to neutrally characterize+understand people's positions. The manifesto had seemed mild and inoffensive to me on first reading; in the light of other people's reactions I need to dig deeper).

    8. Re:It's over by Ignatius · · Score: 1

      I think my post has been sufficiently clear, so I will not reiterate everything.

      The whole leftist concept of "diversity" and "identity politics" is broken. It's just an attempt to rebrand racism, sexism and whole host of other prejudices - and for the same purpose: To gain power over others. It was wrong then and it is wrong now. Altering the victims does not change that. Whoever uses a term like "toxic white male" is a racist and sexist asshole. And yes, labeling someone "toxic" is dehumanizing - and that's exactly how it is intended.

      That being said, these are exactly the qualities which in a technical project do not matter at all. You need diversity, yes - in technical skills (esp. in larger projects). And you need homogeneity - in mission and purpose (there has to be a consensus about what the project is about). Race, sex, where you come from matter as much as your eye color, shoe size or blood group. If these random attributes, which can be shared by any dog, is what one considers his "identity", then he is not even acknowledging himself as a human being.

      I really thought we would be over this bullshit since the 80ies - but it's coming back with a vengeance. Then it was the KKK, now it is the SJWs.

      Another main point of yours: Yes, I consider software, and esp. open source software, which is what the manifesto is about, as free speech, just like art or other forms of human expression. It is a personal right and anyone and any group of people must be free to engage in it on their own terms. No one else has any say about it. No one has the right to pressure them to accept any "code of conduct" or to impose any "rules" on them. If you think you can do it better, then just do it, and otherwise mind your own business.

      Obviously, we, as a society, need to relearn to accept each others freedoms again or we will end up in a dystopian totalitarian shithole.

    9. Re:It's over by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Indeed. It is a nice little totalitarian manifesto, telling tech-people that they are pretty worthless after all and that anybody else who has not invested decades in honing their technical skills is at the very least equal to them in what power they should get in a tech project.

      And "We understand that working in our field is a privilege, not a right." is directly out of the Fascist's cookbook.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    10. Re:It's over by Reziac · · Score: 1

      https://postmeritocracy.org/

      Fortunately it comes with a convenient list of "People you do not want anywhere near your project".

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    11. Re:It's over by djinn6 · · Score: 1
      I think GP is plenty clear on why this manifesto is a problem, but I can rephrase some of that for you:

      * We believe that interpersonal skills are at least as important as technical skills. - You believe instead that technical skills are more important than technical skills (either in software in general, or OSS in general, or Linux in particular? unclear).

      There's no place on the swimming team for people who can't swim.

      * We can add the most value as professionals by drawing on the diversity... - About race/sex diversity, you believe that the quantity/quality of a team's technical contributions is unaffected by this. About background/international diversity, you believe that the quantity/quality of a team's technical contributions is increased a little by this in some areas.

      Don't judge people by the color of their skin.

      * We have the obligation to use our positions of privilege, however tenuous, to improve the lives of others. - You believe instead that there is no such obligation. (or, I guess, you believe it's an acceptable exercise of free speech for a project to adopt this as a rule, but you believe the quality of the project will suffer for it).

      Being helped is a privilege, not a right.

      * We must make room for people who are not like us to enter our field and succeed there. - You believe instead that there's no obligation on anyone to make room.

      Cheetahs should not be forced to have snails on their relay team.

      * We have an ethical responsibility to refuse to work on software that will negatively impact the well-being of other people. - You instead believe there is no such ethical responsibility, maybe because every action has some positive and some negative impact. (It was unclear to me how this relates - is there a logical step which says "anything which can be used for good and bad obviates the developer of evaluating the good/bad likely effects because that's solely down to the users"?)

      Software don't kill people, people kill people.

      * We acknowledge the value of non-technical contributors as equal to the value of technical contributors. - You believe instead that that value of technical contributors is higher.

      On a swim team, people who can swim are more valuable.

      * We understand that working in our field is a privilege, not a right. - You instead believe that working in OSS is a right, indeed just a special case of the freedom of speech+expression. (I don't think that you and the manifesto have the same definition of "field" and "work" on this point?)

      You don't need a software job to write free software.

      * The negative impact of toxic people in the workplace or the larger community is not offset by their technical contributions. - You instead believe that "toxic person" is too loaded/dangerous a term to ever be used (in this context? or in general? unclear).

      Labels are tools of dictators. They can be used to remove anyone you dislike.

    12. Re:It's over by djinn6 · · Score: 1

      Even if you include all men, they aren't the majority either.

  44. There is no shortage of talented people by lorinc · · Score: 1

    There is no shortage of talented people, and as such, there is no need to make room for everyone. There is a fair number of excellent developers with a thick skin, and it's more than enough to make a project like the linux kernel progress at a steady pace. There is no need to broaden the circle to people that are supposedly good but don't like to have their feelings hurt.

    1. Re:There is no shortage of talented people by Reziac · · Score: 1

      And if they're really so good, why can't they start their own projects? Fork whatever and add their own code to it. What? need someone to fix the mess? Oh dear.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
  45. Re:Good. by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

    If you can behave to the standards which would be required in literally any professional workplace in 2018, you don't need to be involved.

    Well said emperor Jahoda. Obviously "professional workplace" is some kind of standard open source must follow... because?..??.. well.. obviously... because you say so!!

    Will you by decree force open source members to write documentation? Order them to work on anything other than what they damn well please? Are you to interview contributors making sure they meet education and background requirements? Will there be drug testing? Will they be forced to participate in meetings or else face dismissal? Will you verify identity? Exclude old people from working on projects? Many professional workplaces conduct regular performance reviews. Are you going to do that as well? If I don't meet expectations on my performance reviews or my drug test does not come back clean will I be banned from contributing?

    If you can't do that, there are plenty of forums to write angry posts about SJWs while you wrote your own OS.

    Fragmentation is exactly what you can expect from open source projects and communities when unnecessary politics are injected. More forks, less coordination, less interoperability.

    Some people look at code of conduct and what they see is oppression and intolerance. They see cowardly people who would rather censure and silence others than tolerate utterances they themselves find offensive, disagree or could possibly "offend" or "trigger" someone somehow. To them codes of conduct are disappointing, dangerous and contrary to the values of free society.

  46. Conduct of code matters more than code of conduct by ext42fs · · Score: 1

    Subject says it all. If you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen.

  47. who's behind it? by astrofurter · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Who is the malign force behind the undemocratic imposition of this petty-authoritarian CoC on an unconsenting community? That person or organization is almost certainly also responsible for the ignominious purge of Free Software world hero Linus Torvalds.

    Follow the money - Progressives are always bankrolled by big money financialists and their running dog "non profits". Only a tiny minority of the population support their totalitarian policies. Without the big money they would be nothing but fringe wingnuts ridiculed by everyone.

      Follow the legal threats - Progressives always use the iron boot of the police state. There's no way they could impose their deeply unpopular puritanism without the violent coercive power of the state. Linus and perhaps other Linux leaders are probably being blackmailed with legal threats.

    Let's find our villain, so we know who is working so hard to destroy the Freedom in Free Software. #ResistTotalitarianism

    1. Re:who's behind it? by mvdwege · · Score: 1

      Who is the malign force behind the undemocratic imposition of this petty-authoritarian CoC on an unconsenting community?

      The Kernel Maintainers.You know, the people bozos like you keep insisting got there by merit. So why don't you just be a good believer in meritocracy and fuck off? Or is it suddenly not a meritocracy anymore if they don't do what you want? Nice of you to prove the point either way.

      And the fact that one of the objecters on LKML is quoting a neo-Nazi like Vox Day is reason enough to make this CoC a good idea.

      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
  48. His wording really isn't that elegant. by Qbertino · · Score: 1

    I bet dollars to doughnuts that Linus is right 99.99% of the time but some wordings in his mails really sound childish. I get that he has to deal with sub-par kernel engineers from company X pushing an agenda and being really stupid and they deserve an ass-chewing, but if I were him I'd wait a day before sending that response and rephrase it in such a way that everyone knows the only douche wide and far is the guy insisting on having crap merged into the kernel.

    That would be way more effective and way more embarrasing.

    I suspect Linus is going to get some advice on this and then start doing exactly that. It will be a little more work, but finding a secretary in helping him formulate those mails or someone good in wording doing some editing when he needs to publicly push back on non-sense in a steadfast manner shouldn't be to much hassle.

    --
    We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
    1. Re:His wording really isn't that elegant. by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      I get that he has to deal with sub-par kernel engineers from company X pushing an agenda and being really stupid and they deserve an ass-chewing

      More often than not, Linus is shouting at well known, talented and respected contributors. So what is it that you "get" again?

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    2. Re:His wording really isn't that elegant. by Cederic · · Score: 2, Informative

      I bet dollars to doughnuts that Linus is right 99.99% of the time but some wordings in his mails really sound childish.

      How many tens of thousands of emails has he sent? How many are in public?

      People get upset by the dozen in which he's finally lost patience and shown he's actually human.

      I get that he has to deal with sub-par kernel engineers from company X pushing an agenda and being really stupid and they deserve an ass-chewing, but if I were him

      You're not him though. None of us are. He's fucking remarkable, and I'm willing to accept that occasionally he might send an email that's less diplomatic than the other 99.99% of them.

    3. Re:His wording really isn't that elegant. by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      Reading disability. The thread went like this:

      I get that he has to deal with sub-par kernel engineers from company X pushing an agenda and being really stupid and they deserve an ass-chewing

      More often than not, Linus is shouting at well known, talented and respected contributors. So what is it that you "get" again?

      Your reply is a nonsequitur. Do you always do that?

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
    4. Re:His wording really isn't that elegant. by Tough+Love · · Score: 1

      You are putting words in my mouth. I disagreed with the characterization of Mauro as a "sub-par kernel engineer" which anybody can see is not true.

      --
      When all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a thumb.
  49. SubjectIsSubject by p0p0 · · Score: 1

    There is no slippery slope. Never is. It's always a straight fall of a cliff. This is the point where sub-par coders who worry more about what pronoun to call their dog rather than putting out a working product start to take over.

    Linux by tumblr. Spooky. Just in time for Halloween.

  50. So I other words ... by Qbertino · · Score: 1

    ... they wrote a complicated version of "We will all try hard not to be assholes."

    Great. Awesome. I am over-effing-welmed.

    Can we now get on with improving the kernels power management on laptops? Thanks.

    --
    We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
  51. Linux Community To Adopt New Code of Conduct by tcheleao · · Score: 1

    Not Linux Only!
    This blog is in a need of something related.
    I personally decided to contribute to Windows (much more friendly coders & moderators),
    after be bullied at Linux.

  52. Bluntness is not permitted by MikeRT · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's possible to be blunt without being offensive:

    What part of this are you not getting?

    * Using welcoming and inclusive language

    Being blunt, no matter how civil, is not "welcoming and inclusive." As I said: welcoming and inclusive refer to a specific emotion which is to make things as warm and bubbly and positive as you can.

    You are reading this through your "reasonable person" glasses, not through the glasses of the sort of person that actively pushes codes of conduct on every project bigger than a 1000 LOC and 1 maintainer.

    As it stands, I agree with you, but that's not relevant here because your normal, sane reading is not what the activists intend to use.

    1. Re:Bluntness is not permitted by gweihir · · Score: 1

      As it stands, I agree with you, but that's not relevant here because your normal, sane reading is not what the activists intend to use.

      This CoC is a preparation for a witch-hunt, plain and simple. And it is useful idiots like all these defending the CoC here that allow this to happen. Later they will claim they had no idea this would happen.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  53. anti-democratic by astrofurter · · Score: 2

    Have you noticed how these authoritarian CoCs are always imposed without a popular vote and without the consent on the communities they are forced upon? I wonder why...

    1. Re:anti-democratic by mvdwege · · Score: 1

      But, as you bozos keep repeating, it's not a democracy, but a meritocracy. So tough shit, old chap. You will accept just what your betters decide.

      Or you can go away. Which would also be a good thing.

      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
    2. Re: anti-democratic by astrofurter · · Score: 1

      Ever notice how the people in favor of forcing petty-authoritarian CoCs on unconsenting communities *say* it's all about "just being a nice person" - yet are themselves aggressively uncivil, bigoted, belligerent, and mean-spirited? It's almost like the CoC-mongers are raging hypocrites, and the CoC itself a transparent power grab.

    3. Re: anti-democratic by mvdwege · · Score: 1
      Ever notice how aggressive rando's suddenly discover 'being nice' when it is them on the receiving end?

      Tough shit. You whine about a code that comes down to 'be nice to people', you've already painted yourself as an asshole. I'm just treating you as you yourself say you want to be treated.

      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
    4. Re: anti-democratic by astrofurter · · Score: 1

      So you admit you're a raging hypocrite, and have no intention whatsoever of following the speech restrictions you seek to impose by force on others. EVERYONE knows CoC s are peddled by the least-nice members of any community, and are obviously not at all about 'being nice to people'.

      My question is: why do you feel the desire to persecute people for their speech? It it because you have a personal grudge against Free Software hero Linus Torvalds? Is it because your world view is built on such shakey foundations that the free speech of others might bring it all tumbling down? Or do you simply take malevolent delight in being part of a witch hunt?

    5. Re: anti-democratic by mvdwege · · Score: 1

      Have you ever tried seeking therapy for your projection issues?

      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
  54. So left-handers and tab-users are fair game? by sbaker · · Score: 1

    So left-handers and tab-users are still fair game for abuse?
    (There's a reason the TAB key is on the left of the keyboard...those bastards!)

    --
    www.sjbaker.org
  55. Re:Good. by Jahoda · · Score: 1

    blah blah blah blah blah

    Lol, ok buddy. You seem to have some pretty strong views about this. And as far as the community going back to however you percieve it to have been in whatever golden age, well, wish in one hand, shit in the other. See which one fills up first. Change with the times, or they will leave you behind. Period, the end.

  56. It's about time by kriston · · Score: 1

    The real shame is that it took him this long.

    --

    Kriston

  57. Re: Good. by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

    He's a user too, jackass.

    He's just one of billions. His share is a blade of grass. That's why we all have to share, so we can use more than that.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  58. Enforcement Kangaroos by Sean+Clifford · · Score: 2

    Now how the Hell are we supposed to rip on someone's shitty code and general incompetence?

    Maintainer's Hurtful Comment: "We don't merge kernel code just because user space was written by a retarded monkey on crack."

    Contributor's Complaint: "[Piercing whine] The Maintainer's comment was harassing and hurtful by ridiculing my autism and other learning disabilities when calling me retarded, belittled both me and my contributions as unimportant by revealing my minority status as an uplifted rhesus monkey, and has created an exclusionary and hostile working environment by holding me up to ridicule by publishing private information about my struggle with non-prescription drugs."

    Enforcement Kangaroos: "After careful review and deliberation, this Technical Advisory Board has determined that the while the Maintainer in question has maintained the kernel with an exceptional level of quality and transparency for many years. Further, the Technical Advisory Board finds that the Contributor has made no positive contribution of any kind an any point to this Project and an objective analysis has shown that the Contributor has proven to be an ongoing hindrance to this Project.

    "Nevertheless, despite the facts uncovered by this review, the Technical Advisory Board has determined that the Maintainer has not followed or enforced the Code of Conduct in good faith, continues to express public distain and disregard for the Contributor. The TAB has decided that while the Maintainer's comments are objectively true and the Maintainer's actions are objectively justifiable, that the Maintainer is, effective immediately, permanently removed from the Project because the appearance of meanness is more important than the actual success of the Project."

  59. Re:NEWS FLASH: Linux already sucked nads for years by Seven+Spirals · · Score: 1

    No argument whatsoever, brother. However, FYI, one Linux distro does avoid that shit for the most part and that's Devuan (and Slackware and a handful of others). Problem for me is, I still prefer BSD after tasting it. Once I understood that Linux was just a box of parts and BSD was an engineered whole, it made sense to me why I had always sensed so much suck from Linux. I missed out on 386BSD. Was a Linux user (SLS and Slack mostly) from 1993 until around 1998. Then I started playing with NetBSD off and on, but mostly ran Linux for the display drivers up until about 2010. Then after rotating between Free, Net, and Open BSDs for a few years I gave up on Linux completely when Systemd gained acceptance in Debian, Fedora, and RHEL. To quote Rollins: "At first I didn't see at as kind, but you did me a favor when you left me behind." BSD has just rocked so much harder. I do still keep Devuan around on a USB drive to play some games, though. Hehe, sad, because that's what I used to say about Windows.

  60. Re:NEWS FLASH: Linux already sucked nads for years by Seven+Spirals · · Score: 1

    Wayland also == crap. Asshole devs who dropped XDMCP because "Dhaeerp, it's hard." and tried to pawn off some crippled X11 server for retards by retards. Let me restate more briefly: it came from the Fedora / GNOME crowd. There, now you really know how bad it is.

  61. Re:Linux: survived Microsoft by davecb · · Score: 1

    If you allow people the bigots and Nazis hate to compete, you'll get more good code to choose from than if you limit prospective contributors to, well, people the bigots and Nazis approve of.

    Or you can have a walled garden, with less good code because you've excluded a huge class of people who can write code, from whom to choose the good writers. Just like Microsoft or Apple, who need Linux these days, because they can't do the job...

    --
    davecb@spamcop.net
  62. Time for a new OS? by GeekyGuru · · Score: 1

    Just wondering if this "New Code of Conduct" isn't some indication of a slow slide or an eventual crash dive to oblivion.

  63. Re:WTF is wrong with this? by Z80a · · Score: 1

    Social justice is not about seeking true equality, it's about collectivizing people by their races and genders, then putting those in an "oppression stack", where the ones that are in an "oppressed group" get systemic advantages over the others in a very crude attempt to equalize the things.
    While it in most cases have a good intention in mind, it's still a quite terrible way to do things as you will injustice countless of people.
    Add the point that in many cases this movement push down people "with privileges" instead of pulling up the "oppressed" and you get a quite terrible system.

  64. So patches are now banned? by gweihir · · Score: 1

    Because they strongly imply somebody screwed up earlier, you know.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  65. That's it, everyone. by bistromath007 · · Score: 1

    Computers are dead. You can go home.

  66. Re:NEWS FLASH: Linux already sucked nads for years by Seven+Spirals · · Score: 1

    I call bullshit. Most nerds are libertarians. I'm not a partisan of any kind but that's been my experience, and from the high pitched sound of your whining, I can tell who has more of that. Tell it to James Damore, Linus, Deraadt, etc... Let's not even talk about Stallman and ESR who are right off the political map (so left they are right? So right they are left? *shrug*). If you are in the position to hire folks, you aren't likely to be a good judge of technical skill anyway, Mr. Coward. You probably hired the fucking H1Bs at Disney. You sound like the kind of person who's angry (butthurt?) that the term "Social Justice Warrior" has taken on such a negative connotation because you know that's exactly how you think of yourself. Just a guess, Mr. Coward, but try getting out of Seattle sometime.

  67. Re:NEWS FLASH: Linux already sucked nads for years by Seven+Spirals · · Score: 1

    I take it by "toxic as hell" you mean: "I whined, but nobody ran over and helped me up." Yeah, I know. I like that.They do tend to like you to read the man pages, Coward. It's not Ubuntu or OSX for a reason, but you definitely aren't gonna understand that.

  68. "reject in a welcoming manner" by Ignatius · · Score: 1

    "stand in a sitting manner"
    "shout in a silent manner"

    This simply makes no sense, sorry.

    Excellent example for Orwellian doublethink, though.

  69. Re:WTF is wrong with this? by gweihir · · Score: 1

    Or really the right to be individuals for everybody.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  70. a possible explanation by Ignatius · · Score: 1

    Torvalds 2.0: Patricia Torvalds on computing, college, feminism, and increasing diversity in tech

    https://opensource.com/life/15/8/patricia-torvalds-interview

    1. Re:a possible explanation by Reziac · · Score: 1

      "At 18, Patricia is a feminist..."
      "The award made me feel validated in my interest, of course, but I think the most important part of it was getting to join a Facebook group for all the award winners."
      "After college, I hope to work for a company that supports or creates technology for social good,"

      Yep, I see the problem. Young and stupid and full of Social Justice, having never been vaccinated against it by Real Life.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
  71. Re:Um... NodeJS is doing just fine by phantomfive · · Score: 1

    Don't know about Kubernetes, never heard of it

    Everyone uses it these days to deploy into the cloud.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  72. Re:Um... NodeJS is doing just fine by guruevi · · Score: 2

    At least that was the plan, now we're going back to Docker because filing a Kubernetes bug report gets you all sorts of grief about your formulations being too male-centric aggressive.

    You have discussions like this: https://github.com/kubernetes/... - where hundreds of dev-hours are spent on renaming something because they found "PetSet" to be offensive to animals AND THEY WENT ALONG WITH IT.

    --
    Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
  73. Re:WTF is wrong with this? by Gonoff · · Score: 1

    Social justice is not about seeking true equality

    No. Social justice is about social justice. If I notice that some people are not being treated fairly I would, as a decent human being, not do that. Bing a decent human being is all you need to be. Don't be nasty to people and try and treat them fairly.

    it's about collectivizing people by their races and genders, then putting those in an "oppression stack", where the ones that are in an "oppressed group" get systemic advantages over the others in a very crude attempt to equalize the things.

    That would be a misguided attempt to right one wrong by creating another. Are you reading more into attempts to right injustices than are actually there?

    ...Add the point that in many cases this movement push down people "with privileges" instead of pulling up the "oppressed" and you get a quite terrible system.

    You are quoting the methods of the UK Conservative party. Until recently, the most right-wing but mainstream in Europe. They always equalise to the inferior option - pensions, insurance or whatever. Yes, some people here may think they have made a fairer world, for example by raising the female retirement age rather than lowering the male one. Justice is not the same thing as equality of misery.

    --
    I'll see your Constitution and raise you a Queen.
  74. the origins of the left by Ignatius · · Score: 1

    I agree that there is Babylonian confusion on the term "left" and "right". I have many older who self define as "left" and have nothing to do with Identity politics or mass immigration.

    I, for one, derive my conception of left and right from there actual historic origins which far predate Karl Marx, namely the French revolution. The Jacobins set at the left of the speaker and this is where our political left-right scale comes from. The Terror of Robespierre and his Committee of Public Safety was the first "modern" left government.

    So "left" my book means totalitarian, etatist, revolutionary, anti-democratic and violent. They stand for total control of the individual, are opposed to personal liberties and want to destroy any cultural and historic identity of their subjects, which they call "progressive". A tell-tale sign of left ideologies is the use of the word "reactionary" for the political opposition.

    This definition has served me well, as leftists are the habit of constantly changing and arguing about the ideological fineprint.

    > SJWs have all the hallmarks of right-wing extremists

    Its the other way around: National socialism is yet another left movement, historically grown out of opposition to Stalin's international (but in reality Russian, i.e. Sowjet-) socialism. The people saw what happened in Russia, considered the right (i.e. the conservatives) as too weak to protect them from the communist mob and turned to the Nazis - and got essentially the same deal. Shit happens.

    1. Re:the origins of the left by Reziac · · Score: 1

      Yep. And there's what most don't understand about Nazi/National Socialism/Fascism: it's on the "right" only by virtue of being to the right of Stalin. Can't find it now but someone did a nice side-by-side comparison of party planks, and about all that differed, crudely expressed, was which way the government's guns are pointed.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
  75. This is completely normal by Hazelfield · · Score: 1

    I canâ(TM)t believe the comments here. This code of conduct is some really basic stuff. All it says is âoedonâ(TM)t be an assholeâ. Most larger companies have similar rules. First of all, I wonder: where do you people work? Is it ok to call people idiots, morons, cunts etc. at your workplace? If not, why should it be ok in free software development? Second: what is it about profanities and insults that is so important that we must protest this code of conduct so vehemently? Does it make for better code? Does it improve peopleâ(TM)s motivation? Their skills? If so, Iâ(TM)d like to see some evidence because to me it sounds pretty damn counterintuitive that you could improve people by yelling at them. Third: what planet are you living on where women, immigrants, gays and people of other minorities canâ(TM)t take criticism but instead calls you a racist/sexist/homophobe? Because to me it has NEVER happened. Seriously, how big of a problem is this? In the real world people donâ(TM)t treat each other like shit. Iâ(TM)m happy Linus has realised this. If you canâ(TM)t bear to abide by such simple rules without throwing a tantrum then you must be a very gentle snowflake indeed.

  76. Re:Good. by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

    blah blah blah blah blah
    Lol, ok buddy. You seem to have some pretty strong views about this. And as far as the community going back to however you percieve it to have been in whatever golden age, well, wish in one hand, shit in the other. See which one fills up first. Change with the times, or they will leave you behind. Period, the end.

    How can these statements be falsified?

    After the Hindenburg disaster of 1933 was it time to get on board with genocide because...well... I wouldn't want to be left behind? Heil Hitler.