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As More Retailers Ban Paper Money, It's Making Things Awkward For Customers Without Plastic (wsj.com)

An anonymous reader shared a report: Sam Schreiber was mid-shampoo at a Drybar blow-dry salon in Los Angeles when someone from the front desk approached her stylist with an emergency: a woman was trying to pay for her blow-out with cash. "There was this beat of silence," says Ms. Schreiber, 33 years old. "She literally brought $40." More and more businesses like Drybar don't want your money -- the paper kind at least. It's making things awkward for those who come ill prepared. After all, you can't give back a hairdo, an already dressed salad or the two beers you already drank. The salad chain Sweetgreen has stopped accepting cash in nearly all its locations.

Most Dig Inns -- which serve locally sourced, healthy fast food -- won't take your bills either. Starbucks went cashless at a Seattle location in January, and at some pubs in the U.K., you can no longer get a pint with pound notes. The practice of not accepting cash has become popular enough to catch the attention of American lawmakers. [...] Despite the popularity of debit- and credit-card transactions, plenty of people do still pay for things with actual money. Cash represented 30% of all transactions and 55% of those under $10, according to a Federal Reserve survey of 2,800 people conducted in October 2017.


390 of 698 comments (clear)

  1. Legal Tender by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    For all debts, public and private.

    Leave it on the counter and walk out.

    1. Re:Legal Tender by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      There are two reasons that a business can reject cash even if it is “legal tender for all debts public and private.”

      First, this statement means that the only circumstance when someone must accept the bill is when a person owes the business a debt. If no debt has been incurred, a person or business is not legally required to take U.S. currency.

      Let us say it is very late at night and you need gasoline for your car. Many gas stations in the U.S. do not take large bills late at night to prevent robberies and theft. If the gas station requires customers to pay for gas before pumping it into their car, they have the legal right to refuse US$50 and $100 bills. They do not have to accept large bills because until the customer has put gas into the car, the customer does not owe the station owner anything. However, if the customer is allowed to pump gasoline into the car first and then pay, the owner must accept all types of U.S. bills because the customer has a debt to pay.

      http://theconversation.com/if-...

    2. Re:Legal Tender by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      I'm the OP, and I absolutely agree with you. However, TFS posited a situation in which the debt is already incurred.

    3. Re:Legal Tender by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      After all, you can't give back a hairdo, an already dressed salad or the two beers you already drank.

      For all debts, public and private.

      First, this statement means that the only circumstance when someone must accept the bill is when a person owes the business a debt.

      Reading is hard.

    4. Re: Legal Tender by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "What am I, a fuckin' BANK?"

    5. Re:Legal Tender by jwhyche · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I have yet to see a single physical retailer turn down cash.

      --
      I read at +2. If your post doesn't reach that level I will not see or respond to it.
    6. Re:Legal Tender by jwymanm · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Especially a Salon. That is insane... they live off of cash tips. Read: avoid taxes.

    7. Re:Legal Tender by dfenstrate · · Score: 5, Informative

      For all debts, public and private.

      Leave it on the counter and walk out.

      Bingo. If you deliver services prior to obtaining payment, you must accept cash. Refusing to accept a cash payment after-the-fact would leave you without much recourse to collect in other ways. You're basically depending on the customer's kindness and patience with you.

      Starbucks is another matter because they collect when you place your order. They can go cashless because there is never a 'debt' involved with 'pay first.'

      --
      Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
    8. Re:Legal Tender by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      I have yet to see a single physical retailer turn down cash.

      Not in America. But some other countries are nearly cashless. Sweden and China are the furthest along.

      I spent two months in Shanghai last fall. Number of times I touched cash: 0.

      Even the panhandlers accept electronic payments via QR stickers on their signs.

    9. Re:Legal Tender by Anubis+IV · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Exactly this. Already got a hairdo? Already had your salad dressed? Already drank two beers? You’re in their debt and they are legally required to accept cash as payment for that debt.

      The only way to go cashless is by charging up front, before any goods or services are rendered. I.e. They can refuse the business of anyone who will pay with cash, but they can’t refuse to accept cash for any business already done. That’s why a place like Starbucks can legally go cashless, and also why a typical sit-down restaurant can’t or won’t.

    10. Re:Legal Tender by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Back when staying at the Playboy Club in NJ in the 1970's, I went to pay with cash. They said credit cards only. I offered a check, and they said no checks. I told them thankyou, my girlfriend and I had a wonderful weekend...at which point they got a manager and decided I could pay cash. BTW, that girlfriend is now my wife.

    11. Re:Legal Tender by OneHundredAndTen · · Score: 5, Funny

      Especially a Salon. That is insane... they live off of cash tips. Read: avoid taxes.

      One is explicitly supposed to report tips in tax returns. What you are suggesting is that such businesses engage in systematic and wilful tax fraud - a very serious charge, which you are putting forth without any supporting evidence.

    12. Re:Legal Tender by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      You forgot the /sarcasm tag.

    13. Re:Legal Tender by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I don't know about the law in the US but in most countries around the world legal tender MUST be accepted as payment, with remarkably few exceptions. I do understand the reasoning behind not wanting to deal with cash but they still need to obey the applicable laws.

    14. Re:Legal Tender by ewibble · · Score: 3, Funny

      Don't pay and see if they say you owe them money.

    15. Re:Legal Tender by mark-t · · Score: 1

      That would be stealing. Note it says for all *debts*. You don't owe them anything until they have either already offered you a service in advance of payment or given you a product on credit.

    16. Re:Legal Tender by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 1

      I have yet to see a single physical retailer turn down cash.

      UHaul, Hillsboro, Oregon, across from the airport.
      Would not take cash for a strapping set.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    17. Re:Legal Tender by Known+Nutter · · Score: 2

      Owing money for a service is not being in debt

      Wrong.

      Debt:

      A sum of money that is owed or due to be paid because of an express agreement; a specified sum of money that one person is obligated to pay and that another has the legal right to collect or receive.

      A fixed and certain obligation to pay money or some other valuable thing or things, either in the present or in the future. In a still more general sense, that which is due from one person to another, whether money, goods, or services.

      In a broad sense, any duty to respond to another in money, labor, or service; it may even mean a moral or honorary obligation, unenforceable by legal action. Also, sometimes an aggregate of separate debts, or the total sum of the existing claims against a person or company. Thus we speak of the "national debt," the "bonded debt" of a corporation, and so on.

      https://legal-dictionary.thefr...

      --
      Beware of the Leopard.
    18. Re: Legal Tender by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      If you drank the beer, you owe a debt. And have the right to pay with cash. The only way they can 'protest' is to demand exact change (or the excess becomes a 'tip')

      In Norway, you have a right to pay cash in all cases, unless this necessitate over 30 units of money (bills/coins). So you can demand to pay cash at restaurants, but not ridiculous things like a big bag of low-denomination coins. You can't demand to pay a house that way, as it'd usually require over 30 of the biggest bills. Also, it might be dangerous for the recipient.

    19. Re:Legal Tender by tquasar · · Score: 1

      Retailers can't "ban" money.

    20. Re:Legal Tender by DanielRavenNest · · Score: 1

      Various estimates are that 20% of the US economy is "underground". They care about this, because their job is to collect taxes on it. The underground economy can be divided into two parts. The first is the "black market", which is illegal activity (drugs, prostitution, etc.) and unreported. The second is the "off the books" sector. This is otherwise legal activity, but unreported to the government. That includes everything from hair salon tips to the guys who mow your grass and are paid in cash.

      Since this activity is unreported, it is hard to get data about it. What economists generally do is look at things like total business sales (i.e. people need food and other necessities no matter how they get money for it), and compare that to reported income on returns.

      http://businessresearcher.sage...

    21. Re:Legal Tender by Paul+Carver · · Score: 1

      That's fair, but they're under no obligation to give you change.

      If you owe 30 and all you've got is some 20s, you either give them two 20s or you've failed to pay your debt. But you can't impose a 10 dollar debt on them by giving them 40 that they didn't ask for. If you owe 30 and all you've got is 40, that's your problem, not theirs.

      "For all debts, public and private" doesn't impose any obligation on them to have any bills or coins on hand.

      It also doesn't require that every receptionist be authorized to accept cash. It's perfectly fine for the receptionist to tell you "I'm not authorized to accept cash, I'll call the owner for you, please wait over there" and proceed to swipe the credit cards of the people behind you while you wait 15+ minutes for the owner to be available to settle your debt. After all, you don't owe a debt to the receptionist who handles credit card payments, you owe a debt to the business. The business may have to accept cash for a debt, but that doesn't mean you can just hand cash to any random employee that the business owner has not chosen to entrust with the authority to handle cash.

    22. Re:Legal Tender by Hallux-F-Sinister · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Leave the twenty that is the smallest bill I happen to have when the amount required is say... $6.19? Fuck thirteen dollars and eighty-one cents of that shit. If you're a BUSINESS and you want MINE, you are REQUIRED to have sufficient cash on hand and in appropriate denominations to perform this transaction. I might fuck up and ASSUME you take cash ONCE, but after I try to pay with cash, and you don't "ACCEPT" cash, you will not see me or my business again. If the transaction can be cancelled, (i.e., I have not taken or consumed the thing for which I'm trying to pay,) then I will simply cancel it, and take my business elsewhere.

      If we ALL do this, this bullshit trend will go away. Business assholes can whine that accepting cash costs money, but that's called a cost of doing business. If you don't like that, I cordially invite you to go fuck yourself and go out of business. There are generally plenty of competitors who will happily accept the cash you're turning your smug little nose up at.

      Just my TWO physical, real, actual, CASH cents.

      Plastic is useful, but I sometimes prefer paper, thankyouverymuch.

      --
      Our reign has gone on long enough. Indeed. Summon the meteors.
    23. Re:Legal Tender by olsmeister · · Score: 2

      "Strapping Set" ... that's the name I used when dancing to pay for college

    24. Re:Legal Tender by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Also remember, in the phrase "cash in king," they're talking about the business owner's cash, not yours. And they actually only mean liquid assets, eg, "cash flow."

      With credit cards they have an easier time managing their cash flow, because they can get accurate information online from their bank. With cash, it isn't so easy; you have some pieces of paper or an electronic record that was created by somebody also handling the cash, and then a pile of cash somewhere, and eventually an aggregate bank deposit. It costs more to track the cash closely than you lose in payment fees from CCs.

      If you want to use cash, the obvious answer is to patronize small businesses instead of chains, because they don't incur the same expenses to keep track of their cash. Plus, they might prefer cash for tax reasons.

    25. Re:Legal Tender by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Especially a Salon. That is insane... they live off of cash tips. Read: avoid taxes.

      One is explicitly supposed to report tips in tax returns. What you are suggesting is that such businesses engage in systematic and wilful tax fraud - a very serious charge, which you are putting forth without any supporting evidence.

      No, the claim was that the businesses tend to manage themselves in a way that minimizes their involvement in their employees' tax withholdings.

      Are you sure you can read English?!

      Systemic and willful tax fraud is why the business owner wants customers to pay in cash, not why it is necessary to accept cash in order to retain employees.

      Life does not restrict naughtiness to a single concurrent instance.

    26. Re:Legal Tender by mark-t · · Score: 1

      If you owe them something, where is it written in the *law* that refusal to accept cash equates to a cancellation of the debt?

    27. Re:Legal Tender by Sique · · Score: 1
      The timing is important. Cash upfront is legally different from paying off a debt.

      Legal tender means that you are entitled to pay any debt with the coins and bills issued. But for a debt to exist, there has to be a service provided or a good delivered before payment.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    28. Re:Legal Tender by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Bars manage a middle ground; you have to surrender your CC before they serve you, and there is no way they're going to give it back without attempting to charge it. And it is a crime to hand them a card you know they can't charge.

    29. Re:Legal Tender by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      That's true, they can't arrest you for having it in your pocket, they can only refuse to accept it.

    30. Re:Legal Tender by Alain+Williams · · Score: 2

      I am aware of the costs of cash to business but that is not my problem (it is your cost of doing business).

      What they are doing is transferring the cost/effort of a small transaction to the customer, it is s/he who now has an extra card transaction that needs to be checked when the monthly statement arrives. I know some who do not check statements ... to whom I ask "how do you notice errors or fraudulent transactions ?"

    31. Re:Legal Tender by Sique · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually, Ulysses S. Grant begs to differ: I know no method to secure the repeal of bad or obnoxious laws so effective as their stringent execution.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    32. Re:Legal Tender by Aighearach · · Score: 2

      That's fair, but they're under no obligation to give you change.

      Bullshit! They're under no obligation to immediately give you change in cash, but they're absolutely under obligation to give you change eventually. Keeping the surplus portion would be theft.

      And no need to get hand-wavy; if they refused to accept the cash, they also waived their right to accuse you of "theft of services." It doesn't matter who refuses. If they've refused to accept, it is merely a civil debt, you can come back and pay them later, just the same as they can try to make you wait.

    33. Re: Legal Tender by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 1

      Sure I can!
      (takes out scissors... snip!)
      Here's your two $50 bills, sir!

      --
      #DeleteFacebook
    34. Re:Legal Tender by peragrin · · Score: 1

      actually it is just the opposite.

      small businesses spend a lot of time and money protecting and dealing with cash. and incurr significant losses due to employees.

      larger chains have enough people to employee to be able to handle for it, and if cash goes missing to fire the offending party.

      The whole article reminds of 20 years ago when I was working night shift at mcdonalds. My cash drawer was always accurate except for one night when it was mysteriously $40 short. before the manager even mentioned it to me, they mentioned it to the other employee and how strange it was. in 5 minutes the money was "found" and within a week the other employee wasn't employed anymore. It is easy to make cash disappear.

      In one small store i worked the cash drawer was usually pretty close, but every couple of days would drift up. the extra was put into a "tip" jar in the office and was used to help keep the drawer balanced. About once every 4-6 weeks we emptied the tip jar and bought lunch for every one. That would be money we didn't give customers in proper change.

      Cash sucks for everyone. businesses, people, employers, employees. yes I can see the value of preventing it from being banned or shunned, but like cashier less checkout lines, times are changing.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    35. Re:Legal Tender by urbanriot · · Score: 1

      I have yet to see a single physical retailer turn down cash.

      Yea, I clicked on the comments to write something along the same lines 'cause I pretty much only use cash for purchases and I've never had any issues anywhere in Canada, US, or Europe in my travels. At the start of every week I put $100 in my wallet or refresh it if it's low which keeps me in line at the grocers and all that.

    36. Re:Legal Tender by Ryanrule · · Score: 1

      try going to a chinatown.

    37. Re:Legal Tender by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 5, Funny

      And they actually only mean liquid assets, eg, "cash flow."

      You should store your latinum in some kind of container. Maybe gold bars? They're not worth anything but they do look neat and shiny.

      --
      #DeleteFacebook
    38. Re: Legal Tender by reanjr · · Score: 1

      And without a tip.

    39. Re: Legal Tender by reanjr · · Score: 2

      That's a fascinatingly weird law.

    40. Re:Legal Tender by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 1

      You cut hairs once they've become too long...
      You cut the grass once it's become too long...
      I sense the potential to do some merging of businesses here.

      --
      #DeleteFacebook
    41. Re:Legal Tender by TechyImmigrant · · Score: 2

      People would pay to see that.

      --
      I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
    42. Re: Legal Tender by reanjr · · Score: 1

      Think of it this way: either party can insist on cash remuneration unless both parties agree to waive that right before the transaction. The ordering is important because it proves both parties waived the right to use cash. The assumption is always cash unless another option is explicitly chosen.

    43. Re:Legal Tender by Darinbob · · Score: 2

      Some places used to offer a discount if you used cash (since they avoid the fees). Sometimes though you'd get a discount if you used a credit card instead (to avoid cash on hand at night in a remote gas station).

      So if some place no longer wants to use cash, then why not offer a discount? I really don't want some twenty something kid telling me that only old folks use cash and please swipe my phone to pay for the meal.

    44. Re:Legal Tender by Darinbob · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That's the trap of using plastic (or worse, phones), in that it becomes too easy to blow through your budget. For me, it's often that I'll notice that I only have $20 left and decide that I don't need dessert, or something similar. Without cash, money stops feeling like a real thing to some people, they don't have an internal regulator that says "stop spending". I know people (usually in their twenties) who will spend all of their paycheck and not think that this is wrong in any way.

    45. Re:Legal Tender by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Many people think it does, but it doesn't. Legal tender is always allowed as an accord and having cash in hand is attempted satisfaction. The usual result, unless your contract specifically provides otherwise, is that you can no longer collect any interest from the point in time that the satisfaction (cash payment) was offered.

    46. Re:Legal Tender by geoskd · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you're a BUSINESS and you want MINE, you are REQUIRED to have sufficient cash on hand and in appropriate denominations to perform this transaction. I might fuck up and ASSUME you take cash ONCE, but after I try to pay with cash, and you don't "ACCEPT" cash, you will not see me or my business again.

      See you later, You fall into that 20% of customers who use up 80% of my time. I am better off without you. People like you are the reason that gas stations all require payment up front, and don't let strangers use the bathrooms if they can avoid it.

      Plastic is useful, but I sometimes prefer paper, thankyouverymuch.

      Plastic is cheaper for us to process, even with the transaction fees because we don't have to handle cash, and all of the security / paperwork that goes along with it. we save a pile of money just in reduced accounting costs: No one has to go and manually tally up the til, We don't have to track which purchases were received on which days, and for what. We also gained valuable real-time insight into purchasing habits and trends. We could have gotten all fo that with a more expensive POS system, but even the cheap credit POS we have came with all the bells and whistles and was several tens of thousands of dollars cheaper than the equivalent cash+credit system would have been.

      Pro tip for the IRS. If you see a gas station that charges less for cash transactions, you can bet that you will find some fishy things on those books.

      --
      I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
    47. Re:Legal Tender by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      ...but would they pay cash...

    48. Re:Legal Tender by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Ah I see you have not worked in these industries.

      Yes they conduct fraud. On a scale that would make Bernie Madoff swoon.

      Car mechanics used to do the same thing. A guy I knew would clear easily 10k a month in cash (this was in the 80s so do the inflation math if you want). Claimed some piddly amount. Then when he was dead broke at 70 tried collecting SS. They gave him about 250-300 a month (should have been more along the lines of 2k). Why because he never paid in and therefor could not claim anything. At 70ish he could no longer fix cars. It is harder to do this now that most things are electronic. But I am 100% sure it still goes on. One lady I used to date made 200+ a night in tips at a restaurant. She would claim 20-30. She learned how to do it from her managers and co-workers. She worked at dozens of restaurants, they all do it.

      Restaurant employers are also supposed to make sure your 2.13 (current min wage) is brought up to actual min wage if your tips to match. *NO* *ONE* does it. I mean no one. It is a way that companies pocket the taxes they should pay (remember half of SS is paid by the employer) and keep it. They are literally stealing the money from their employees. Think of this at current rates. 2.13 an hour is about 300 a year in SS paid in. Now lets say we use the numbers from above 200 a day. She would usually have a 6 hour shift so lets say 30 an hour. That comes out to about 5000 dollars for 8x7x365 in unpaid SS taxes per year. Now lets say you need 10 servers in your nice restaurant at any time (not true but not far off). You are looking at 50,000 in just unpaid SS taxes more if you figure in FICA, and federal state and sometimes local. The employee is happy because they get to keep ~40% more of their money. The restaurant is happy as they get to pocket that 50k for something else. Which restaurants do this? Pretty much all of them. If you see a business that is 'tip driven' you can pretty much guarantee this type of fraud is going on.

      Almost all service industries that deal in cash do not claim it all. They claim just enough to not get audited. Paying with plastic is making it much harder. If you think it is a crime this goes on. Pay with plastic and put the tip there.

      No supporting evidence, true but it would be trivial to get. Go into any restaurant and ask. Most servers will tell you if you sweet talk them a bit. The thing is no one really cares.

    49. Re:Legal Tender by chispito · · Score: 1

      I have yet to see a single physical retailer turn down cash.

      I think these are hip, urban problems.

      --
      The Daddy casts sleep on the Baby. The Baby resists!
    50. Re:Legal Tender by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Wrong. It's not like the business doesn't have to track their transactions at the end of the month regardless of if it's paper or plastic. It's just the consumer who now has to check a longer statement at the end of the month.

      How about this. If a business demands plastic, then if it can be found that their systems are hacked and your information is lifted thanks to their insistence on using plastic, they should incur 100% of the costs you suffer going forward.

      Force that through the lawbooks and you'll probably find a return to cash friendly vendors. (note that I explicitly point out this only would apply to vendors that refuse cash. If they accept cash but you choose plastic, then those are the risks.)

    51. Re:Legal Tender by tero · · Score: 1

      Maybe not in US, but fairly common place here in Sweden. I can't remember last time I had cash in my wallet or had to pay with it ... 2016 maybe?

    52. Re:Legal Tender by Alain+Williams · · Score: 1

      Wrong. It's not like the business doesn't have to track their transactions at the end of the month regardless of if it's paper or plastic.)

      There is an extra burden to them with cash: the cash in the tills need to be reconciled (counted, checked with total that the till thinks it should be) at the end of the day and then taken to a bank.

    53. Re:Legal Tender by ben_kelley · · Score: 2

      Well written article. tl;dr: "Yes it says that on the notes, but there's no actual law."

    54. Re:Legal Tender by MeNeXT · · Score: 1

      Never had cash as a charge back nor do I have to pay a service fee to issue a credit. Your accounting system is terrible if cash is any different than credit. Cash also works when the power is out.

      --
      DRM? No thanks, I'll just get it somewhere else...
    55. Re: Legal Tender by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

      The only way they can 'protest' is to demand exact change (or the excess becomes a 'tip')

      No, they cannot even do that. If they can't give you the exact change then they have incurred a debt to you and the same legal tender rules apply: they have to pay it to you in cash unless you are willing to accept some other form of payment.

      Alternatively, you could underpay them and tell them that you will be back with some change later. They may not like that but, if they don't have any change themselves there is nothing they can do about it since you are willing to pay your debt it is just that neither of you has the correct change.

    56. Re:Legal Tender by Paul+Carver · · Score: 1

      If I owe you $5 I can't just pull out a $100 and demand that you hand me $95 cash. And I can't claim that because I offered you the $100 bill and you declined that now I don't owe you anything. And if I stuff the 100 in your pocket and you say "hey, you only owe me 5" that does NOT mean you've accepted a $95 debt from me. It means I've given you a $95 gift unless you specifically agree that you're accepting a debt. I can't FORCE a debt on you that you don't agree to.

      You owe what you owe. It's one thing if you pay exactly what you owe in legal tender or pay extra and tell me "keep the change", but you don't go beyond paying your debt to force ME to hand YOU cash I don't have and don't want to handle.

      And if they have a sign up that says "payment is expected at the time services are rendered" then it would be perfectly reasonable for them to call the cops if you try to walk out without paying just because they didn't have any cash to give you change.

    57. Re:Legal Tender by skam240 · · Score: 2

      Personally, I've never felt any different in spending money off a card or cash and am conservative with both. I have heard from people that some how spending money on plastic is easier than with physical currency but I really just don't get that. It's all money and there's no differentiation for me.

      Maybe it's because I've always been conservative with my money. I have friends who very likely make more than me in a year but when credit card debt payments are factored in they probably make at most the same as me.

      Ultimately, I just can't understand the mind set that see's money as different when it's spent off a card.

      --
      I ignore Anonymous Coward posts. If you want to discuss something, that's awesome. Log in.
    58. Re:Legal Tender by Wycliffe · · Score: 1

      Actually, Ulysses S. Grant begs to differ: I know no method to secure the repeal of bad or obnoxious laws so effective as their stringent execution.

      This reminds me of Trump's current strict enforcement of immigration laws. By strict enforcement of the current laws, I'm still hoping Trump can convince both sides to come together and create a better system with better laws.

    59. Re:Legal Tender by DogDude · · Score: 2

      Plastic is cheaper for us to process, even with the transaction fees because we don't have to handle cash, and all of the security / paperwork that goes along with it. we save a pile of money just in reduced accounting costs: No one has to go and manually tally up the til, We don't have to track which purchases were received on which days, and for what

      As somebody who has been in retail for more than a decade and a half, I have to say that whatever company you work for is either horribly managed, or just employs the very, very stupid. If it takes any company more than 3% to handle cash, it's probably best to just fold it up and find something else to do, because that company is hopelessly fucked.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    60. Re:Legal Tender by Anubis+IV · · Score: 1

      Judges are going to say that there is no debt involved

      Not if they want to remain a judge they won’t. This isn’t just “theory” I’m tossing around. This is centuries-old case law and precedent that is currently being practiced by the courts. The courts have already been compelling shops to accept cash if they allow debts to first be incurred, but these cases go back far further. Factories, mills, and mines used to issue their own currencies in the old days. The federal government established the current rules specifically to ensure that people weren’t locked into using some form of Monopoly money after a debt had already been incurred. Without that protection, it becomes easy to trick people into something that’s effectivly indentured servitude.

    61. Re:Legal Tender by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      People in debt are also more easily controlled. Protest against the system, lose your job, get further into debt, lose your home, etc, etc, etc. The pigs can use economic means to control the public without awkward things like the National Guard shooting at people.

    62. Re:Legal Tender by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Enter receipts, a new technology where what you spend is printed on a little piece of woven cellulose that fits in your wallet.

    63. Re:Legal Tender by Paul+Carver · · Score: 1

      Why don't you try that and let us know how it turns out. Tell them "I'll pay you in 14 days" and then walk right out the door ignoring their protest.

      It's one thing if you talked to the manager/owner in advance and agreed to setup an account, but if you just walk out the door without paying when payment is expected they would be perfectly justified in calling the cops or doing whatever they normally do when someone refuses to pay.

      How about trying it at a clothing store? Put on an expensive coat, say "I'll pay you in two weeks" and walk straight out the door. Let us know whether you get off without a shoplifting arrest.

      In legal terms payment could even be net 90 days if that's what you've negotiated with your suppliers, but the key word is NEGOTIATE, not simply unilaterally declaring "I'll pay you later" for goods or services where the standard practice is to pay at the time of purchase.

      Any seller is well within their rights to decline to agree to net 14 day terms. There is no law anywhere that requires any seller to hand over goods or services 14 days before receiving payment.

    64. Re: Legal Tender by reanjr · · Score: 1

      Yeah, try that with your phone bill.

    65. Re:Legal Tender by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1, Flamebait

      if they provided goods or services FIRST, then you owe a debt.

      cash is valid.

      I'm done here.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    66. Re: Legal Tender by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Cash can't be remotely shut down by govt or banking networks. Considering banks now think they're entitled to set firearms laws, cash is important.

    67. Re: Legal Tender by slazzy · · Score: 1

      Cash also doesn't stop when the power is out. In the old days of credit cards, they could take imprints and bill later, but now they are a thing of the past. I've been at the store lately when the power was out, and I was still able to buy my groceries just fine, those with cards only couldn't buy anything.

      --
      Website Just Down For Me? Find out
    68. Re: Legal Tender by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      I've seen an "imprinter" in use as recently as a few years ago.

    69. Re:Legal Tender by psycho12345 · · Score: 1

      "How about this. If a business demands plastic, then if it can be found that their systems are hacked and your information is lifted thanks to their insistence on using plastic, they should incur 100% of the costs you suffer going forward." That already is the case with credit cards, the merchant agreements with the card issues are very onesided. If there is a chargeback ever, the merchant eats the cost.

    70. Re: Legal Tender by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Easy to do with 2nd-tier brands like MetroPCS -- they're pretty much set up to accept any form of payment for prepaid.

    71. Re: Legal Tender by Sigma+7 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, try that with your phone bill.

      Trivially done, I walk into the phone store where I got my phone, and give them cash. They still have a cash register in the front and a safe in the back, as per every normal store. It's not like they're an internet-only company that doesn't have a physical means to receive cash.

      Want to know what happens whenever there's an outage, similar to what happened with the three tornado cluster this year? E-payment only stores can't get income even if they're otherwise able to operate.

    72. Re: Legal Tender by adfraggs · · Score: 1

      This doesn't go away by using electronic processes, you still need to do your accounts. Likely it's just easier than when using cash, but you're paying the banks in transaction fees and perhaps another fee for accounting software. Small businesses used to have efficient and manageable processes for handling cash, it was part of the skillset you needed. Now that's been partially forgotten but it's not like some lost secret knowledge. Laws will catch up with this eventually and businesses will have to reintegrate proper cash management processes. Crying about it being "hard" is kind of pathetic.

    73. Re:Legal Tender by guruevi · · Score: 1

      It is contract law.
      In the first case you enter into a contract where the tender has been (albeit informally or verbally) agreed upon. You can describe in the contract whatever you want, I want to be paid in gold ingots or check or cash or bitcoin - you exchange a good for the tender whatever that is. If both parties don't agree, nobody is owed anything.

      In the second case you incur a debt and then have to repay that debt. Debts in the US can be paid in various ways but cash is legally tender "for all debts incurred, public and private", you can pay any debt in cash, regardless of how that debt was incurred. At this point, both parties agreed or failed to agree how to pay back the debt and unless you have a signed contract that says another exchange was agreed upon, you have to accept cash or give back what you got out of the exchange.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    74. Re: Legal Tender by guruevi · · Score: 1

      Depends on the transaction. If you have a signed contract that says otherwise, cash may not be acceptable. Eg if we have an agreement to exchange a good, you can't suddenly say that I have to accept cash because you wanted to keep both goods, especially in real estate and business this would give rich people the right to pretty much buy anything by fraudulently entering into contracts and then offering cash of the "current value" (vs. the potential value) in exchange.

      For example, if that were true, I could buy pretty much any business by entering into an agreement to buy your company out in exchange for a seat at the board and shares from mine then when I get the papers for your company signed, instead of countersigning, I immediately offer you cash for the current value of the business. The poor business partner could do the same in the other direction, agreeing to get thousands of shares for the 'value' of your business, accept the shares and then offer a pittance for them in cash based on the value of your business.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    75. Re:Legal Tender by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      This reminds me of Trump's current strict enforcement of immigration laws. By strict enforcement of the current laws, I'm still hoping Trump can convince both sides to come together and create a better system with better laws.

      Trump isn't aggressively enforcing anything. He's selectively enforcing. His wife's parents "chain migrated" to this country, to use his administration's terminology.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    76. Re: Legal Tender by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      If Apple and Google can pay next to no taxes, why the fuck should I hold mom-and-pop businesses to a higher standard. Yeah, I'm more than OK with the occasional fraud of that type. As long as the super-rich get away scot-free, why should everyone else suffer?

    77. Re:Legal Tender by iTrawl · · Score: 1

      Err... I think the bank may have something to say about leaving your card unattended with unauthorised persons...

      --
      "Everybody's naked underneath" -- The Doctor
    78. Re: Legal Tender by serviscope_minor · · Score: 5, Informative

      That's a fascinatingly weird law.

      Not really: it's an anti-dickhead law. Thing is if you say all cash is legal tender then someone can pay back a $100,000 debt using a dump truck full of pennies incurring a large cost on the recipient. Anti dickhead laws only tend to come into effect after sufficient numbers of dickheads cause the law to be changed.

      The UK has different rules stating for example that 1p coins are only legal tender for settlin a debt of up to 20p.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    79. Re: Legal Tender by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      No, they cannot even do that.

      Are you sure about that? In England it's quite clear: the definition of legal tender does not allow you to demand change. You might want to check your local legislation. It's almost certainly oddly specific.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    80. Re:Legal Tender by Sigma+7 · · Score: 1

      There is an extra burden to them with cash: the cash in the tills need to be reconciled (counted, checked with total that the till thinks it should be) at the end of the day and then taken to a bank.

      Paycards also have a burden associated with them. A quick glance is a 0.13% fee for all transactions, plus $0.0195 per credit card authorizations, a Kilobyte access fee, and plenty of other fees that likewise would appear on a cash transaction. The only difference is that it's directly deducted from the amount the company received rather than having someone count and transport the money.

      Regardless of payment method, there's also an overhead to ensure that things are correctly handled for tax purposes.

      It's also still easy to handle cash, since vendors were able to handle that for centuries.

    81. Re: Legal Tender by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      For business owners, getting charges reversed on a regular basis is worse than the usual low level amount of counterfeiting. They all would love to go back to cash, but they use plastic to stay in business.

    82. Re:Legal Tender by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      That's not how universal commercial code works. At least not in detail. There is either a contract between both parties under agreed to terms, or there is no contract an no exchange of goods or services is possible. If you accept service then you are bound by the contract. If there is a dispute, you don't get to declare victory, you get to sort it out in front of a judge. Now for example, if a sign in the store is plainly visible that indicates cash is not accepted, then you're out of luck. Have fun with debt collectors.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    83. Re:Legal Tender by Khyber · · Score: 1

      "No one has to go and manually tally up the til"

      Oh wow, a whole thirty seconds if you're actually competent - subtract starting cash, count remainder and see if it matches up with till output. Are you too stupid to be able to quickly count?

      "We also gained valuable real-time insight into purchasing habits and trends."

      Personally getting to know your customers gives you a lot more insight. Sounds like you work for a failing business.

      "If you see a gas station that charges less for cash transactions, you can bet that you will find some fishy things on those books."

      I do internal auditing. Give me ten minutes with your company's books and I bet I'll find at minimum three fuckups.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    84. Re:Legal Tender by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Burner Gmail -- Dont.spam.me.you.effing.asshole@gmail.com

    85. Re: Legal Tender by Kjella · · Score: 1

      In Norway, you have a right to pay cash in all cases, unless this necessitate over 30 units of money (bills/coins). So you can demand to pay cash at restaurants, but not ridiculous things like a big bag of low-denomination coins.

      Your information is in practice outdated because they changed the law so that they can offer you a fee-less alternative in which case the only place they must accept cash is the corporate HQ. What it in practice means is that many places like doctor's offices and hotels that have your name registered have gone cashless, if you try to pay in cash you get a paper bill instead. If you pay it from your own bank account that's usually free, but then it's in practice an electronically tracked payment anyway. If you pay it in cash at the bank they charge ridiculous fees and obviously going across the country to pay cash in the one place they're legally required to accept it is unworkable.

      Stores don't do this yet because the time they'd spend writing up the bill, but in practice it's permission to end all anonymous transactions because they will check your ID to know who to send the collection agency after if you don't pay. Because it's basically just hassle to get the paper bill and go home to fill inn all the details and it doesn't give you anything many of the hold-outs will get plastic. I doubt it's very long until the law is changed again and they can simply refuse customers who won't/can't pay by card, as long as there's no debt incurred. There are many businesses that only marginally deal in cash that have said they'd like to quit, so I expect the snowball to roll pretty quick.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    86. Re:Legal Tender by MatthiasF · · Score: 2

      You realize you just accused someone of being a thief and a vagrant as a response to someone making a strong opinion on a legal responsibility of a business being avoided?

      And then you explain how your business avoided modernizing and leapt right onto a single payment platform without making an effort to grow into a system that could easily handle all methods of payment easily. You even seem proud of this which is really odd.

      Your position is even stranger since many small businesses refuse credit cards to avoid the transaction fees you say are cheaper than the "accounting costs" of cash.

      So, I'm curious of what type of business is this?

    87. Re:Legal Tender by binarybum · · Score: 1

      sort it out with a judge, bring a lawyer. Counter sue. Profit.

      not accepting cash for a hair job and taking someone to court for it will end badly for that business.

      --
      ôó
    88. Re:Legal Tender by NicBenjamin · · Score: 3, Informative

      It is if they accept cash. The Federal Reserve says:
      "all United States money as identified above is a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person, or an organization must accept currency or coins as payment for goods or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether to accept cash unless there is a state law which says otherwise."

    89. Re: Legal Tender by NicBenjamin · · Score: 2

      Actually, to quote the Federal reserve:
      "This statute means that all United States money as identified above is a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person, or an organization must accept currency or coins as payment for goods or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether to accept cash unless there is a state law which says otherwise."

      So, no, they do not have to accept cash. They probably don't argue with you, because they probably don't know the law, but if Starbucks wants to require you to py with a Credit Card Starbucks can require you to pay with a card.

    90. Re:Legal Tender by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      That's the trap of using plastic (or worse, phones), in that it becomes too easy to blow through your budget. For me, it's often that I'll notice that I only have $20 left and decide that I don't need dessert, or something similar. Without cash, money stops feeling like a real thing to some people, they don't have an internal regulator that says "stop spending". I know people (usually in their twenties) who will spend all of their paycheck and not think that this is wrong in any way.

      20-something kids will always be 20-something kids. They will always suck at money.

      I hate cash. I've got something called an Emerald Card. It's a debit card. Every time you spend money you get a text with how much you have left. You can transfer money to it from your bank account at any time. This is a great regulator.

    91. Re:Legal Tender by ArchieBunker · · Score: 1

      None of the state agencies here accept cash. Good luck getting your drivers license.

      --
      Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
    92. Re: Legal Tender by Bengie · · Score: 1

      If I owe them a debt, then I must be a debtor, which makes them a creditor. I have rights as a debtor, like paying within 30 days of notice that I have to pay without penalty.

    93. Re:Legal Tender by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, debit cards are a bit more dangerous than credit cards. If someone steals your credit card you can cancel all transactions made with it. If someone steals your debit card they can drain whatever account or money that is attached to it before you can get around to canceling it.

      Also, for some reason (maybe historical) you can raise your credit score a long ways just by paying off your credit card each month. That's a very good thing for 20-somethings to do.

      This is the advice given by Frank Abagnale, security consultant with the FBI.

    94. Re:Legal Tender by inking · · Score: 1

      Doesn’t matter what it says; it’s not the position of the Treasury. You can pay off all dollar denominated debts in dollars, but a private party cannot be compelled to accept those dollars in any specific form, whether it be cash or Google Pay. They must only accept dollars, as opposed to Rubles or Euros or what have you. Refusing banknotes is perfectly within their rights as a business. Dollars are a medium of exchange, banknotes are a means of payment.

      https://www.jstor.org/stable/4...
      https://www.treasury.gov/resou...

    95. Re:Legal Tender by Kjella · · Score: 1

      The only way to go cashless is by charging up front, before any goods or services are rendered. I.e. They can refuse the business of anyone who will pay with cash, but they canâ(TM)t refuse to accept cash for any business already done. Thatâ(TM)s why a place like Starbucks can legally go cashless, and also why a typical sit-down restaurant canâ(TM)t or wonâ(TM)t.

      They could relatively easily do that with a $1 pre-authorization hold before you get service, that's how gas stations do it when you use the card first and pump gas afterwards. Sure it would be a change of custom but I'm sure they could spin it as a positive, everyone else ends up paying for those who bail on the bill.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    96. Re:Legal Tender by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      I got credit cards too. Mostly use them for things I was going to buy anyway.

      I brought up that specific card because it works quite a bit like cash. If you need the discipline of knowing that you only have $40.24 left to spend, it texts you that number. It's also trivial to cancel it from your cell phone, and any H and R Block retail location can just hand you a new one.

    97. Re: Legal Tender by o_ferguson · · Score: 1

      Clearly you do not live in the real world. 90% of my weekly household transactions are with people and businesses that only take cash.

      --
      - In Soviet Korea, only old people loose all their bases to Natalie Portman's petrified hot grits overlords.
    98. Re:Legal Tender by e3m4n · · Score: 1

      If they bank with a bank that is FDIC insured, they are required BY LAW to accept legal tender. If they refuse then contact their bank to get their accounts closed. Good luck getting your card payments approved through their clearinghouse when the account got closed.

      Better yet play the race card. If the race card is sufficient to fight voter ID because a $20 ID oppresses poor people then those same poor people cannot always afford plastic money. Thin at best, but they cannot dismiss this AND maintain the bullshit cover of voterID is intended to disenfranchise poor people. Double edged sword. They either keep their illegal voters, or they get to refuse paper money.

    99. Re:Legal Tender by e3m4n · · Score: 4, Interesting

      But their bank is FDIC insured. If they refuse cash the bank MUST revoke their status for transfers meaning their credit card clearinghouses can deposit the transactions.

      Back in the 90s when we got paid in the military, before days of direct deposit, banks tried to refuse to cash checks if you didnt habe an account. I had 5 or 6 banks GROVELING once I started the process of revoking their FDIC for refusing to cash a governement check. Think they wont fire a customer to keep their FDIC status? Think again.

    100. Re:Legal Tender by andymadigan · · Score: 1

      The regulations for check cashing and accepting cash are completely and totally different. For all of these people who think that cash has to be accepted for "all debts", try paying for Netflix with cash. In fact, plenty of credit card companies won't accept cash to repay your credit card debt.

      --
      The right to protest the State is more sacred than the State.
    101. Re:Legal Tender by Wycliffe · · Score: 1

      Trump isn't aggressively enforcing anything. He's selectively enforcing. His wife's parents "chain migrated" to this country, to use his administration's terminology.

      Trump's wife came here legally. Enforcing laws against ILLEGAL immigrants and not against LEGAL immigrants is not selective enforcement.
      Chain migration probably should be curtained but again that's why we have immigration laws and if we don't like them that we change the laws.

      This idea where people pretend to be unable to distinguish between LEGAL and ILLEGAL immigrants is getting old.
      That's like not making a distinction between someone driving legally or not driving illegally and saying that the police are arresting people for driving.

    102. Re: Legal Tender by GargamelSpaceman · · Score: 1

      Look at the list of places - simply awful places full of awful people.

      Merry Christmas: where we all buy visa gift cards for a $5.95 fee each for the same amount and exchange them. It's Christmas for visa.

      I wish gift giving were taken out of X-mas and it could be just Turkey Day number 2.

      --
      ...
    103. Re:Legal Tender by mark-t · · Score: 1
      Exactly.

      There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person, or an organization must accept currency or coins as payment for goods or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether to accept cash unless there is a state law which says otherwise.

      All that "legal tender" means is that short of entire economic and societal collapse where money is going to be worthless anyways, the government will respect the face value of the currency, it does not mean that refusal to accept it for a debt equates to cancellation of that debt.

    104. Re:Legal Tender by cheekyboy · · Score: 1

      You cant create your own laws, signs can only
      be put up with msgs that are allowed, you cant say
      no cash accepted, as thats against the law.

      Just as some american companies doing business in australia who say, "No returns accepted" in clothes shops, well sucked in, coz that not allowed - and the govt will fine ya ass off.

      --
      Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
    105. Re:Legal Tender by cheekyboy · · Score: 1

      I can walk into a bank, hand over $50 note, and say , put this into the CC, or prefill a form doing so.

      Idiot.

      --
      Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
    106. Re:Legal Tender by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Wowowow no. Please don't get hung up on the commoner's definition of debt = you owe someone money. That's not how debt is legally defined. It's also not the intent of the statement about legal tender.

      Debt as far as legal tender is concerned can only be incurred in the form of a fixed financial contract. You are not in debt between the time you finish your dinner and when you pay, or when you fill up your car (especially in the latter case as stupidly outlined in the conversation because their goods haven't even left the premises yet. If you walk out you will also be charged under different legal frameworks (stealing vs breach of contract).

      Legal tender for all debts public and private means exclusively that the USA central bank will accept USD bills to close out any outstanding debt, and that private banks need to handle debt likewise. For instance when you keep your money in a bank, read through your contract. It's a signed contract signifying the "debt" they owe you. Nothing more

      And since this will come up 100 more times in this thread I'm now going on a copy-paste-athon.

    107. Re:Legal Tender by thegarbz · · Score: 2

      if they provided goods or services FIRST, then you owe a debt.

      Did you both sign a contract including all terms and conditions for the debt you have? If not then you aren't in debt, and when you walk out of that store you're not in trouble for failure to meet your contractual repayment obligations but rather you're gonna be done for stealing.

      You can't incur debt buying a product or service.

    108. Re:Legal Tender by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      In this day of mobile apps to instantly view your balance why is this still a thing? The $20 left scenario I also don't understand. For me that's only a trigger of do I need to go to the ATM in order to afford this icecream or not.

    109. Re:Legal Tender by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Bingo. If you deliver services prior to obtaining payment, you must accept cash.

      No you do not. Debt has a legal definition that is far more complicated than the commoners understanding of "I owe you money". The process of incurring debt is a long and convoluted (assuming you read your paperwork).

      The legal tender for all debts public and private means that the USA central bank and all private banks must accept USD for lending and holding purposes as defined in their contracts. A bank can not turn down cash payment into your account or to close out your loans. They can however refuse cash to pay fees though I've not seen a bank not simply take this out of your account anyway.

      For some services you incur debt but that's entirely dependent on a lengthy legal contract you need to sign beforehand.

    110. Re:Legal Tender by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Already got a hairdo? Already had your salad dressed? Already drank two beers? You’re in their debt

      Only as a commoner would see it. Unless you signed about 10 pages of legalese before you were served you did not incur debt in any of those scenarios as per the legal definition of debt. And when you walk out it will be the police that come get you, not the company's contract lawyers.

    111. Re:Legal Tender by Firethorn · · Score: 2

      You can't incur debt buying a product or service.

      Yes, you absolutely can.

      Go to a sitdown restaurant and have a meal before the bill is presented? Debt. Get a haircut without paying first? Debt. Have a plumber fix your toilet then get the bill? Debt.

      Sure, it is short term, but is still debt. And there is actually a contract, just a verbal one constrained by customs and traditional conventions.

      Where isn't it debt? Where you pay first or the exchange is effectively simultaneous. Buying food at a fast food joint. You pay, then get food. Grocery stores, Walmart, etc...

      Make an attempt to pay your debt using cash and the store refuses moves it from attempted theft to a contract dispute. From watching judge shows, I'm picturing Judge Judy telling the plaintiff to take the damn money.

      The cops, keeping in mind that they have done shit like arrested a guy for attempting to pay with a $2 bill, probably won't arrest somebody who attempted to pay with cash and continues to offer to pay in front of the cops.

      Lastly, what happens if there is a problem with the plastic? Like shut off for suspected fraud and the customer didn't know?

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    112. Re:Legal Tender by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Go to a sitdown restaurant and have a meal before the bill is presented? Debt.

      No, not debt. Look up the *legal* definition of debt from a financial law reference. Not the dictionary definition. You have no incurred debt.

      Debt has a dictionary definition and a legal definition. Just because you incurred debt in a dictionary sense, doesn't mean what you have fits the legal definition of debt. The latter is key to understanding what is written on the bank notes. Which does not apply to your hairdresser (but does apply to the bank he picks up his morning float from).

      Lastly, what happens if there is a problem with the plastic? Like shut off for suspected fraud and the customer didn't know?

      We're talking about legal definitions not common sense. I agree common sense says cash should always be a fallback option. It makes perfect sense to.

    113. Re:Legal Tender by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      He works at a gas station. Want to know what else doesnt work without power? Gas pumps. Unless he has backup power his station can't pump gas when the power goes out.

      That said, they can also spring for an UPS or a low power system. Also, there are ways to do cards by hand. Remember imprint machines? Ker-chunk chunk?

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    114. Re:Legal Tender by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      It's funny, but not taking cash is actually a way to discriminate - if you want to make sure your clientele is say, white, then only accept cards because your "undesirables" generally will not have cards.

      It's why some lawmakers have introduced laws requiring businesses accept cash, or if card only, then if cash is presented, to either accept it, or let the patron walk with goods and services as paid. (The latter obviously meant to avoid the situation where cash is presented and the patron refuses or does not have any alternative means of payment - now the business has to eat the cost of the product or service).

    115. Re: Legal Tender by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      I mean, even if we except your anti-dickhead theory, who is being protected from dickheads? The people who least need protection, it seems, the biggest dickheads of all.

    116. Re: Legal Tender by del_diablo · · Score: 1

      Its not even a law, its a norm used by what i assume is a bank or a larger retail chain.
      Now, there is a good chance it might be based off some law, but "30 units" looks like a internal company police. And won't hold up in court.

    117. Re:Legal Tender by dfenstrate · · Score: 2

      I did a search and found some of the federal reserve info elsewhere posted in this discussion, but nothing that solidly proved your point. Others have quoted legal dictionaries that state that short-term debt is still in fact debt.
      Absent clear case law it's reasonable to view any agreement to pay later as debt, whether 'later' is 45 minutes or 45 months.

      --
      Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
    118. Re:Legal Tender by Spamalope · · Score: 1

      They do, and then your card has 'gone missing' when you're ready to close out your tab and leave. But it sure was charged! That's happened to me twice. Now I don't surrender my card, ever.

    119. Re: Legal Tender by quintus_horatius · · Score: 1

      A contract for an illegal act is, itself, illegal and unenforceable.

    120. Re:Legal Tender by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Short term debt is still debt, but you do not incur short term debt between the end of a service and your trip to the cash register. Debt has well defined payback terms pre-negotiated at the time debt is incurred. Someone else I was just talking with gave a good scenario: What if you intend to pay but your card doesn't work. Well you could offer to pay tomorrow, at that point you have stopped buying a product and service and have entered into a debtor / creditor relationship with an agreed upon closing out of your terms.

      The same is true for things like construction jobs where the final invoice when the job is done and signed will often have a contractual obligation to close out the balance within 30 days. Or anything that you buy now pay later. Those things fall under the definition of debt.

      Getting a haircut, or drinking a beer does not.

    121. Re:Legal Tender by Paul+Carver · · Score: 1

      That would likely happen anyway if I lived or worked in your neighborhood. Fortunately I don't. People don't behave that way here.

    122. Re:Legal Tender by kenh · · Score: 1

      Couldn't someone take the $40 cash and put the charge on their credit card? Is this really a problem the clerks couldn't figure out?

      I think this "story" speaks more to the clerks/manager in the store than the store policy - their inability to think outside the box.

      --
      Ken
    123. Re:Legal Tender by bigdavex · · Score: 1

      Same for me. I think treating cash differently comes from a mentality of spending until the money is gone. That's a very foreign mindset to me.
           

      --
      -Dave
    124. Re: Legal Tender by MBGMorden · · Score: 1

      Yeah I think the last time I saw one was about 7-8 years ago. I was getting a medical evaluation for a pilot's license and there are only certain doctor's offices that will do this so I couldn't use my normal doctor.

      The doctor my instructor gave me was an OLD guy (looked to be in his 70's) still working. Very small staff and when I was paying by card when I left, they whipped out the old carbon paper machine.

      That said, my last card that I got from my credit card company this year didn't even have the raised lettering (it's lasered onto the back instead), so it wouldn't work with one even if they had a machine on hand.

      --
      "People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
    125. Re: Legal Tender by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

      Are you sure about that? In England it's quite clear: the definition of legal tender does not allow you to demand change.

      Yes, it does. If you owe change then you have a debt and the definition of legal tender in England clearly specifies that you have to accept cash to pay off debt. Hence you can demand cash by simply refusing all other methods of payment because you are not required, by the legal tender law, to accept them.

    126. Re:Legal Tender by kenh · · Score: 1

      Pro tip for the IRS. If you see a gas station that charges less for cash transactions, you can bet that you will find some fishy things on those books.

      Said the /.'er that is too young to remember when every major gasoline chain offered cash discounts.

      Refusing cash may seem like it saves money, but that's only because you under-estimate the cost of accepting credit cards and over-estimate the costs associates with accepting cash.

      Accepting credit cards imposes transaction fees and percentage of transaction charges, and forces you to wait until the credit card company chooses to reimburse you for purchases processed (15-30 wait?).

      I've worked in retail, and honestly the "expense" of accepting cash is minimal - "closing out the drawer" takes less than 10 minutes (count the cash, remove all but the amount needed to start the next business day), write up a deposit slip, drop it off at the bank. Retail employees are some of the lowest-paid workers in the country, it would be surprising if "accepting cash" added up to a half-hour's worth of work per day. Of course, scale this up to a busy Walmart or grocery store, and the costs increase, but not linearly with the increased revenues.

      For every example of a clerk getting bogged down with handling cash transactions, I can point to an equal number of credit card transactions that are declined or cards that won't swipe/allow their chip to be read that creates a similar delay.

      There's a reason retailers put "minimum charge" signs up in their stores, at a certain point (typically transactions under a couple dollars), the retailer starts to lose money on a credit card transaction that exceeds any possible profit on the sale. For example, PayPal charges a 2.9% fee on payment total + 30 cents per transaction, so buying a $1.50 candy bar with plastic costs the retailer about 35 cents (30 cents plus 2.9% of $1.50) - how much profit do you imagine there is in a $1.50 candy bar that it is "cheaper" for the store owner to give the credit card company 35 cents for the convenience of accepting a credit card payment?

      --
      Ken
    127. Re:Legal Tender by kenh · · Score: 1

      What they are doing is transferring the cost/effort of a small transaction to the customer

      EVERY cost of doing business is passed on to the customer - businesses don't last if they sell their goods and services below cost... Unless you are a ecommerce company and the "magical internet" allows you to offer services for free and sell items at a loss, as long as the stock valuation keeps going up.

      --
      Ken
    128. Re:Legal Tender by geoscodin · · Score: 1

      The place I go even has a sign that says tips cannot be included on your card and must be paid in cash or Venmo,

    129. Re: Legal Tender by reanjr · · Score: 1

      You're a moron. Just because one company lets you pay with cash, doesn't mean every other company is required to.

    130. Re:Legal Tender by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      not accepting cash for a hair job and taking someone to court for it will end badly for that business.

      Depends on the jurisdiction, but that's generally the case. For example, I know that businesses usually lose in small claims court in California. And the way small claims court is structured here it's very cheap for the plaintiff to pursue but it can be expensive for the defendant to prepare a defense.

      A judge might get annoyed and order the plaintiff to immediately pay what is owed, in cash, and order the defendant to accept it. To stop the policy entirely would have to go beyond small claims court, but it's probably enough of a hassle that the business will change their behavior. (likely posting multiple signs rather than accepting cash, because people are stubborn)

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    131. Re:Legal Tender by Savantissimo · · Score: 2

      They're in violation of 31 U.S. Code  5103 , which reads in full: "Legal tender: United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues. Foreign gold or silver coins are not legal tender for debts."

      The key term there is "public charges", which includes the charge for getting a government-issued ID.

      --
      "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?" - Patrick Henry
    132. Re:Legal Tender by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 1

      That little slogan on US currency is actually quite hollow. Private businesses have no obligation to accept US currency for payment in the absence of federal statue mandating its acceptance. It is possible for a state, or local laws to require its acceptance but I'm guessing such laws are basically non-existent.

      --
      Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
    133. Re: Legal Tender by Savantissimo · · Score: 1

      All debts are obligations (to pay), but not all obligations are debts. You may be obliged by contract, law, or court order to do things other than pay money.

      --
      "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?" - Patrick Henry
    134. Re:Legal Tender by andymadigan · · Score: 1

      Only if your credit card is offered by a bank with physical branches. Off the top of my head, Ally Bank has no physical branches, does not accept cash deposits, and offers a credit card. There's plenty of other branded cards that work the same way, like Fidelity's credit card. (Fidelity has offices but doesn't accept cash)

      --
      The right to protest the State is more sacred than the State.
    135. Re:Legal Tender by DontBeAMoran · · Score: 1

      Gee, you want him to lose all his hairs or something? You're no friend!

      --
      #DeleteFacebook
    136. Re:Legal Tender by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      You're simply wrong.

      You have to accept the $100 bill, and you have 2 weeks to return the surplus. If you refuse, then I have two weeks to pay you. But you'll be in the same situation then; I might over-pay, and you might have to return the surplus.

      If you don't like it, don't loan me the $5 in the first place!

    137. Re:Legal Tender by Agripa · · Score: 1

      Especially a Salon. That is insane... they live off of cash tips. Read: avoid taxes.

      The IRS estimates tips whether they exist or not.

    138. Re:Legal Tender by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Fraud. Fucking duh.

    139. Re:Legal Tender by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      It never happened to me, but the few times I did it, I just felt that is the natural thing that should happen to me.

      So I just use cash, and pay for drinks as I order them. And I can leave at any time, too.

    140. Re:Legal Tender by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Does being that clueless about the law cause whatever the law is called to go away?

      Or is there some other system for how laws work?

    141. Re: Legal Tender by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      We have record of original contracts that are 5000 years old, on cuneiform tablets.

      Libertarians may like to take the idea of contracts to their logical extreme, but the use of contracts to sort out the obligations of parties is not some new government conspiracy.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    142. Re:Legal Tender by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      It's not a law, it's an agreement. I can refuse service except in special cases (i.e. ones covered by the Fourteenth Amendment). If you show up and agree to a transaction according to my terms, then we have a contract. Universal Commercial code standardizes the kinds of contracts that are formed for normal sales. But I am not aware of hard currency being always accepted.

      I can remember an instance where my apartment complex refused to accept a deposit in cash. They would not accept a personal check either. I was required to get a cashiers check in order to rent from them (the amount exceeded what is allowed for a money order at the time). A bit of a hassle because I could easily get cash from an ATM at any time, but I had to go to the bank during business hours to deal with a bank teller.

      I could not find any cases that establish that what is written on money is automatically law, or a law passed by Congress that requires accepting hard currency "for all debts public and private". If someone can prove me wrong, then great, we all learn something.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    143. Re: Legal Tender by Sigma+7 · · Score: 1

      You're a moron.

      Then hurry up with the universal payment system that works in all situations. It's trivial to make for such a Very(tm) Smart(tm) person such as yourself.

      Just because one company lets you pay with cash, doesn't mean every other company is required to.

      Irrelevant. You wanted to know if I could pay a phone bill with cash, and I can do so because my provider accepts cash. How other companies behave, including other phone companies, is their own business.

      Those phone companies can survive with non-cash payment methods because there's plenty of time to make those payments. Retail stores do not have this luxury, and should expect what will happen when there's an issue with the credit/debit card.

    144. Re: Legal Tender by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      How often does the power fail in first world countries these days?
      And in third world countries or remote locations with unreliable power, there will usually be battery backups and generators anyway.

      Also a lack of power is not good in a grocery store that's selling refrigerated or frozen goods, once the temperature climbs too much all those goods will have to be discarded anyway.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    145. Re:Legal Tender by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      You don't have to incur debt, or pay any fees... There are various debit cards available, and on most credit cards its possible to pay the balance in full every month and not incur any fees. Many cards also now come with a mobile app so you can see at anytime how much you've spent or have left. Cards are always useful in emergencies too, where you might be faced with an unexpectedly large bill and not have enough cash. Payment in multiple currencies is also much easier with cards, and you don't end up leaving a foreign country with piles of useless small change.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    146. Re:Legal Tender by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      They don't keep your card, they pre authorise a large amount to cover your tab, and then finalise the amount when you leave. Hotels do the same etc.

      Also businesses that don't take cash will usually advertise this fact up front - eg with signs in the store indicating their non acceptance of cash. It's illegal to take goods while knowingly not having the means to pay for them, if the business advertises a list of payment methods they accept and you take their goods when you know you don't have any of the acceptable methods then its your fault.

      It works another way however, if the business advertises acceptance of cards but is then unable to take your card payment due to a fault of their own (eg card reader not working) that's their problem not yours. They can't make you go and get cash.

      What is especially annoying when travelling however, is countries which have local payment methods that don't exist anywhere else. As a visitor i don't have these local payment methods, i'm probably not eligible to apply for them and i probably can't read the information which explains how they work or where to get them. If somewhere accepts visa/mastercard that's great, i have these cards from my home country and can use them almost anywhere.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    147. Re: Legal Tender by fisted · · Score: 1

      Joke's on them -- I bought this years visa gift cards with last years visa gift cards.

    148. Re: Legal Tender by Rhipf · · Score: 1

      Actually the joke is still on you. Visa just got to double dip on the activation fee. ;-)

    149. Re:Legal Tender by nasch · · Score: 1

      Youâ(TM)re in their debt and they are legally required to accept cash as payment for that debt.

      Got a citation for that? Such as a court case, or a statement from a government office?

      "There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person, or an organization must accept currency or coins as payment for goods or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether to accept cash unless there is a state law which says otherwise."

      https://www.federalreserve.gov...

    150. Re: Legal Tender by mcarthur · · Score: 1

      So, I buy a car from the local Toyota dealer. They refuse my bank debit card, AmEx, VISA, MasterCard, and Discover card...
      So I guess that business is trying to rip me off.

      I don't think so.

    151. Re: Legal Tender by slazzy · · Score: 1

      In my part of western Canada we regularly get winter power outages from windstorms causing tree to fall hitting power lines, it's normally fixed within an hour or two, but it always seems to happen on the way home from work when I want to grab a few groceries. Anywhere you get big trees and big winds combined with overhead power lines you'll get outages, pretty sure you'd consider us a first world country. Stores that do have generators seem to only have them connected to critical equipment such as fridges and freezers and not cash registers for some reason.

      --
      Website Just Down For Me? Find out
    152. Re:Legal Tender by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 2

      Debt has well defined payback terms pre-negotiated at the time debt is incurred.

      The payback terms for the debt you incur for a haircut are that you pay before you leave, which in most cases is expected to be on the same day. That's even better-defined than the "offer to pay tomorrow" in your example.

      If they're claiming that you owe them money, that's a debt and legal tender rules apply. The entire point of legal tender, after all, is to ensure that there is a standard way to settle exactly these sorts of disputes. Practically speaking it's less a matter of retail or contract law and more a matter of judicial procedure: Why would the government take your claim seriously if you've already been offered payment in full, in the government's own money no less, and refused? Say you did take them to court over "theft of service" or some such, and won; do you think the court will require them to compensate you by credit card? No, you'll get your payout in cash, and if you won't accept cash, why would they waste their time dealing with the matter?

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    153. Re:Legal Tender by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      You're in their debt and they are legally required to accept cash as payment for that debt.

      Got a citation for that?

      Well, there is this Federal Reserve page, which you also quoted:

      Section 31 U.S.C. 5103 ... means that all United States money as identified above is a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor.

      It's absolutely true that no one is obligated to accept cash for goods or services. One can instead require payment by some other means in advance, in which case there is no debt. Once goods or services have been provided on credit, however, a debt exists, and one cannot legally claim that this debt remains unpaid after full payment in legal tender has been offered and refused.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    154. Re: Legal Tender by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      According to the Royal Mint:

      In order to comply with the very strict rules governing an actual legal tender it is necessary, for example, actually to offer the exact amount due because no change can be demanded. [emphasis added]

      At least in the UK, if you want to force someone to accept legal tender to settle your debt you'd better have the exact amount on hand, or else be willing to overpay. Overpayment on your part does not create a debt on their part for the difference.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    155. Re:Legal Tender by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      This is wrong in every particular. Legal tender in the United States is not the abstract unit "dollars" but specifically "United States coins and currency". That includes Federal Reserve Notes, United States notes, and U.S. coins. It does not include Google Pay or VISA. Your own references state this explicitly. No one is obligated to accept cash for goods or services, but having provided goods or services on credit they can either accept legal tender as payment for that debt or else write off the debt. Legally speaking, if you owe a debt and offer to pay it in full with legal tender, and that payment is refused, the debt no longer exists.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    156. Re:Legal Tender by nasch · · Score: 1

      Why do you suppose the Federal Reserve didn't mention the distinction you draw between payment in advance and in arrears? The simplest explanation would seem to be that it's because it doesn't matter - either way, the merchant is not required to accept cash because it isn't a loan. Since so many services are performed before payment, it seems strange that the document would not mention this requirement if it exists, don't you think?

    157. Re:Legal Tender by skam240 · · Score: 1

      Honestly I don't know what you're doing here. The parent was talking about it being too easy to spend money with plastic and I responded with a comment that I would never understand that mindset. At no point was any point relevant to what you brought up was being discussed.

      --
      I ignore Anonymous Coward posts. If you want to discuss something, that's awesome. Log in.
    158. Re:Legal Tender by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      The payback terms for the debt you incur for a haircut

      Are non-existent. You don't have an agreed payback period. You didn't enter into a contract. You haven't even left the store.

      I cannot stress this enough, you cannot enter into an automatic or implied debtor / creditor relationship, ever. This is only possible to do through a manually agreed upon contract.

      Even my verbal example is on legally dubious ground in terms of the hairdressor becoming a debtor.

      No, you'll get your payout in cash

      No you won't. Have you never received court ordered compensation? You will get either a direct debit or a cheque depending on the size of the payout.

    159. Re:Legal Tender by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      They don't keep your card, they pre authorise a large amount to cover your tab, ....

      That's as much as I read. You already know that I've told you about a common practice. You're telling me, what? That you don't believe I exist, or you think I'm from another planet and just making it up?

      I'm not interested in the comments of people who don't even comprehend that they're replying to people's actual, real-life experiences. If you don't believe that I experienced things the way I reported, why would you even reply?

      If you had a different experience, say so; don't tell me my experience didn't happen.

    160. Re:Legal Tender by Firethorn · · Score: 2

      No, not debt. Look up the *legal* definition of debt from a financial law reference. Not the dictionary definition. You have no incurred debt.

      Looked it up, my definition works. You want to provide a citation that says otherwise?
      Debt:
      A sum of money that is owed or due to be paid because of an express agreement; a specified sum of money that one person is obligated to pay and that another has the legal right to collect or receive. A fixed and certain obligation to pay money or some other valuable thing or things, either in the present or in the future. In a still more general sense, that which is due from one person to another, whether money, goods, or services. In a broad sense, any duty to respond to another in money, labor, or service; it may even mean a moral or honorary obligation, unenforceable by legal action. Also, sometimes an aggregate of separate debts, or the total sum of the existing claims against a person or company. Thus we speak of the "national debt," the "bonded debt" of a corporation, and so on.

      Ordering off the menu, which comes with prices and terms, constitutes the express agreement.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    161. Re:Legal Tender by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      There is no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services.

      Never said that there is. As I specifically said, in private businesses where payment happens first or simultaneous with the exchange, they an indeed refuse cash.

      However, if I go to a business that provides a non-refundable service, such as a hair cut or a meal, the issue is more complicated. If I incur the debt by ordering and eating the food, for example, then offer to settle by paying cash, they may refuse my payment, but the net result is likely going to be them being forced to write off the debt. If it hits the court, the court will tell them to take the bloody money, and you'll have spent more than the bill trying to collect.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    162. Re:Legal Tender by Jahta · · Score: 1

      We also gained valuable real-time insight into purchasing habits and trends.

      And there we have the real driver behind "cashless"; tie every purchase, no matter how small, to a card and therefore an individual. Retailers can get all the stock management "insight" they need from any decent point-of-sale system. Mandating card-only payments is not required. What's selling, what's not, what's running low, when to reorder, etc.; non of that requires anything more than the anonymized item tracking you get from any POS system.

      And don't get me started on shops that want to email or DM me an electronic receipt.

    163. Re:Legal Tender by McPierce · · Score: 1

      Right. IANAL, but my understanding is that US currency is of unlimited exchange; i.e., a vendor can't refuse to accept cash.

      --
      Darryl L. Pierce "What do you care what people think, Mr. Feynman?"
    164. Re: Legal Tender by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

      Fine, so you underpay and say that you will be back with the correct change for the rest on the next day to settle the rest of your debt.

  2. Chinese food by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Very few Chinese restaurants take credit cards. There must be some reason they don't want a paper trail.

    1. Re:Chinese food by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What's wrong with not wanting a paper trail? Privacy is a sacred human right.

    2. Re:Chinese food by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 1

      Very few Chinese restaurants take credit cards.

      I’ve eaten at lots of Chinese restaurants, and I’ve never EVER been in one which doesn’t take credit cards.

      --
      #DeleteChrome
    3. Re:Chinese food by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Frankly, megacorps like Apple and Google barely pay taxes. If a mom and pop Chinese restaurant does the same, they're called evil frauds. Hypocrisy much? Especially since, in the US, the tax money tends to be squandered on military homicide sprees abroad anyway.

    4. Re:Chinese food by mark-t · · Score: 1

      I agree privacy is important. But it's not a right. Privacy, in fact, is largely illusionary, and ultimately only reflective of how ignorant one remains of whether or not someone else is interested in what one is saying or doing.

    5. Re:Chinese food by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      It's a human right. It's not a civil right because some American politicians and judges say "huuuurrr duuurrrrrr not explicitly written in the Constitution gruuuuunt." (as if the Constitution was the be-all and end-all of human rights)

    6. Re:Chinese food by danlip · · Score: 2

      It is a civil right guaranteed by the US Constitution. Even though the work privacy is not explicitly stated, it is pretty obvious from the 4th amendment (and to a lesser extent the 5th, 3rd, and 1st). The right to privacy has been central to many Supreme Court decisions, including Griswold v. Connecticut and Roe v. Wade, so at this point it is very much established law.

    7. Re:Chinese food by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      That's the thing about the "right" to privacy; it doesn't actually protect, or attempt to protect, your privacy. It protects your rights as you attempt to implement privacy. It is similar to the concept of a "trade secret" where the rights only exist as long you as you succeeded in keeping it secret/private.

      It is about protecting you from being punished for refusing to turn out your pockets, not a protection against somebody looking at what accidentally falls out of your pockets.

      Or put another way, you have a right to your desire for privacy, rather than a right to actually have privacy.

    8. Re:Chinese food by Aighearach · · Score: 2

      You might want to slow down on the hur-dur and figure out what you're trying to say.

      You used the phrases "human right" and "civil right" but I think you actually meant to be differentiating between "natural rights" and "legal rights."

    9. Re:Chinese food by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Very few Chinese restaurants take credit cards.

      I’ve eaten at lots of Chinese restaurants, and I’ve never EVER been in one which doesn’t take credit cards.

      Apparently not all of the ones in China Town that lack an English storefront, and are also not visible from the street. ;)

      The Asian Market I shop at is run by a nice couple from Hong Kong. They definitely accept the full range of credit cards. But if you want to be a valued regular who gets high quality service, like having them order the brands you like that they stopped carrying, or if you want them to set aside a box of some sort of vegetable for you during the week before a holiday, then you should probably get used to bringing cash.

      And if you want a birds nest, it costs $750. If you're using a CC, I highly doubt they have any in stock.

    10. Re:Chinese food by Khyber · · Score: 1

      You very obviously don't know what Asian grocery Bird's Nest is if you think Amazon will ship it.

      In fact, as I look on Amazon right now, no, it does not exist anywhere.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    11. Re:Chinese food by raftpeople · · Score: 1

      I've only paid with credit at Chinese restaurants for my entire life (I live in the US). I have eaten Chinese at least a couple times per year for the last 30 years of my life, all credit.

    12. Re:Chinese food by ichimunki · · Score: 1

      OK. At the risk of sounding like an uncultured troglodyte, what on earth is a "birds nest" that costs $750?

      --
      I do not have a signature
    13. Re:Chinese food by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      I doubt he meant that, that's just stupid.

      That's not anybody in the world's law, and that explains why it is phrased using diplomatic language instead of legal language.

      That declaration is not a law anywhere on planet Earth. And other planets never even heard of it.

    14. Re:Chinese food by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Literally, a bird's nest.

      For Chinese bird's nest soup.

      It is a mud nest made by a species of swallow, so basically mud and bird spit. The flavor is from the bird spit.

      I've heard you can substitute other types of swallow nest.

      But I've never actually eaten this soup.

  3. Quick solution by Calydor · · Score: 1

    Why can't one of the hair stylists or other customers take the cash and pay with their credit card?

    --
    -=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
    1. Re:Quick solution by torkus · · Score: 1

      They could as a one-off, but I believe this breaks some cash-advance rules. Meh.

      On a larger scale, this will get you flagged for money laundering and/or tax evasion.

      --
      You can get rich if you own a politician, but you have to be rich to buy one in the first place.
    2. Re:Quick solution by epyT-R · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I prefer to not have records of every financial transaction stored in other peoples' databases...if at all possible.

    3. Re: Quick solution by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      The fastest way to get rid of the cop is to insist that you want to charge the person from the store with filing a false report. The cop will very quickly be telling everybody, "this is a civil matter, this is a civil matter, this is a civil matter..."

      It is a crime to accuse you of stealing if you attempted to pay, but no cop is going to take that report because it won't be consistent with their department policies. So they'll exit-stage-left very quickly.

      If you don't say any "magic words," they might actually decide that you're a jerk and spend a bunch of time making you sit around next to their flashing lights looking like you're a Bad Guy.(TM)

    4. Re: Quick solution by geoskd · · Score: 1

      If you don't say any "magic words," they might actually decide that you're a jerk and spend a bunch of time making you sit around next to their flashing lights looking like you're a Bad Guy.(TM)

      Just because you are legally in the clear doesn't mean you aren't a dooshbag.

      --
      I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
    5. Re: Quick solution by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Oh, how cute, he learned a new word!

      Next, learn how to spell your new word.

  4. Pound notes??? by ebcdic · · Score: 3, Funny

    "At some pubs in the U.K., you can no longer get a pint with pound notes." I'd be surprised if you can find any that accept them. Pound notes were withdrawn 30 years ago.

    1. Re:Pound notes??? by Calydor · · Score: 1

      Semantics, the 1 Pound Note was withdrawn, but the rest of the paper money in Britain is still various numerations of pounds.

      --
      -=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
    2. Re:Pound notes??? by wwphx · · Score: 1

      I do have a 1 pound note in my wallet, it sits there next to my $2US bill. I've been curious to see if I could anything with it if I ever get to England.

      --
      When you sympathize with stupidity, you start thinking like an idiot.
    3. Re:Pound notes??? by mrbester · · Score: 1

      It's also been about that long since you could get a pint with just one pound note.

      --
      "Wait. Something's happening. It's opening up! My God, it's full of apricots!"
    4. Re:Pound notes??? by mrbester · · Score: 1

      I have a 10p note. It was only legal tender in NAAFI bars and canteens and I got it as change when I was at Biggin Hill one foggy night before pilot aptitude testing.

      --
      "Wait. Something's happening. It's opening up! My God, it's full of apricots!"
    5. Re:Pound notes??? by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

      Indeed you can do something with it: you can go/send it to the Bank of England and they will exchange it for a pound coin. But you will likely have to go to the actual Bank fo England to do this, after this much time high street banks are unlikely to do it for you.

    6. Re:Pound notes??? by Hognoxious · · Score: 2

      "Pound note" means a one pound note. If you're talking about a five pound note, there's a different name for that.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    7. Re:Pound notes??? by FormOfActionBanana · · Score: 1

      in what, 1950?

      --
      Take off every 'sig' !!
    8. Re:Pound notes??? by Calydor · · Score: 1

      In my mind, words like 'pound notes' and 'dollar bills' and so on have always meant the currency in general, not a specific (low) value.

      --
      -=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
  5. I have an idea: by fredrated · · Score: 4, Insightful

    accept cash or your services are free.

    1. Re:I have an idea: by mark-t · · Score: 1

      And unless you get a receipt, you can't prove you ever gave them cash. If they refuse to give you a receipt for a cash payment what do you do, right then and right there?

    2. Re:I have an idea: by DogDude · · Score: 2

      If they refuse to give you a receipt for a cash payment what do you do, right then and right there?

      Call the police.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    3. Re:I have an idea: by Mishotaki · · Score: 1

      And unless you get a receipt, you can't prove you ever gave them cash. If they refuse to give you a receipt for a cash payment what do you do, right then and right there?

      punch them, they will have to call the cops and say that you punched them after paying them with cash. Instant receipt!

    4. Re:I have an idea: by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Not viable if they are likely to punch you back.

    5. Re:I have an idea: by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Seriously? The cops probably gave more important things to do than get in the middle of a private transaction dispute.

    6. Re:I have an idea: by DogDude · · Score: 2

      Seriously, yes. That's what you do. The other option is to leave the place of business without paying, and then the cops still show up, but this time they put you in jail.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    7. Re:I have an idea: by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      The cops probably gave more important things to do than get in the middle of a private transaction dispute.

      SO what you are saying is I get to fuck with you with impunity so long as you think the cops have better things to do than solve the problem of me fucking with you?

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    8. Re:I have an idea: by slazzy · · Score: 1

      Easy, take out your phone and record a video of them refusing cash. Bonus points for posting on social media, cue the outrage over gentrification.

      --
      Website Just Down For Me? Find out
    9. Re:I have an idea: by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Yep -- shame the hell out of them.

    10. Re:I have an idea: by Bobrick · · Score: 1

      Welcome to the real world?

    11. Re:I have an idea: by DogDude · · Score: 1

      If I have a service done, am willing to pay for it, and the seller is unwilling to take my payment, then that's "nothing better to do". That's enforcing the law. The police should be involved. If you want to let people take advantage of you so as not to inconvenience the police, that's your business.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    12. Re:I have an idea: by MeNeXT · · Score: 1

      Everything is a private transaction dispute.

      --
      DRM? No thanks, I'll just get it somewhere else...
    13. Re:I have an idea: by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      If I have a service done, am willing to pay for it, and the seller is unwilling to take my payment, then that's "nothing better to do". That's enforcing the law. The police should be involved.

      The police should not be involved, unless you fail to show up in court, because that's a civil matter. The only reason to involve the police is if you need to establish someone's identity who won't pay. No one should be permitted to refuse cash to settle a debt. The only choices should be demand payment up front, or accept cash.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    14. Re:I have an idea: by DogDude · · Score: 1

      Then you put down cash on a countertop where a business doesn't want to take it, and walk out and deal with the consequences later. I'll call the cops, thanks.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    15. Re:I have an idea: by ArchieBunker · · Score: 1

      The cops will say its a civil matter and tell you to see the magistrate.

      --
      Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
    16. Re:I have an idea: by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Must be nice to have so much free time that you can afford to waste it waiting 8 or 9 hours for cops to arrive to a scene that is *NOT* an emergency. I can all but guarantee that such a call would probably be at the very bottom of their priority list, and when they do actually get there, they may even fine you for calling the police to a scene where no matter that actually needs to involve the police has actually occurred. Certainly no crime has taken place (unless you walk out without satisfying the debt or arranging payment that is amenable to the debtor, or else you may be guilty of stealing).

      Much as some people might like to think so, it is *NOT* illegal to refuse to accept cash as payment, and whether or not a service has already been rendered or possession of a product already transferred in advance of the payment is irrelevant.

    17. Re:I have an idea: by mark-t · · Score: 1

      All they are doing in refusing cash is refusing the *FORM* of payment, not refusing payment at all. While taking a video could prove that you offered them cash, their refusal to accept cash does not actually equal any cancellation of a debt (as someone else pointed out, however, it may limit their ability to seek any interest damages if actual payment is postponed).

    18. Re:I have an idea: by LostMyAccount · · Score: 1

      Look at it from a more real world perspective.

      If you run a business, you're a known entity to the cops and as a business owner have a whole lot more credibility than someone random person who chose to ignore the "NO CASH ACCEPTED" signs.

      The cops will more than likely side with the business owner and treat you like a non-paying customer, which is a crime in most places, not a "private transaction dispute". You're not trading grain futures here.

      My guess is that the cops just care about the business owner not getting outright ripped off. They'd probably tell the owner to accept your cash, but probably also wouldn't require the owner to give you any change in return.

  6. This note is legal tender by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    This note is legal tender for all debts public and private.

    Especially considering we're talking about services already rendered, the point is moot, they have to accept it for payment of the debt.

    1. Re: This note is legal tender by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The OP is still right, and your link support them. You're not reading it like a lawyer.

      Once the debt is incurred, it is a legal offer of payment. Tough shit for the business.

      Before the debt is incurred, they can preemptively refuse to do business in exchange for cash, but not once the debt exists.

    2. Re: This note is legal tender by v1 · · Score: 1

      The key word here is "DEBT". In this context, "debt" refers to one of two things: Either something that you owe due to process (like taxes - ie "public debt") or due to the seller/provider having extended you (long OR short term) credit for goods they are unwilling or unable to accept a return on. ("private debt") Example like being allowed to pump gas, consume food, or experience entertainment are things that are impractical or impossible to return. You can either demand payment in advance (in which case you can restrict the form of payment you will accept, you CAN refuse to accept cash) OR you are extending the consumer credit, even if it is very short term. (like when you pay for a meal at a restaurant after eating... but try that one at mcdonalds... vendors are NOT obligated to extend even short term credit)

      So if they extend credit to you, then your greenbacks become legal tender for settling that private debt, as specified on the bill and backed by your link from the feds.

      The angle I find interesting is that coins seem to be refusable to settle large debts. I think we've all seen stories of disgruntled people paying tickets and fines with wheelbarrows of pennies or nickels, and the discussion that follows, that some (usually government agencies) refuse to accept payment in small coin. I suspect this is due to coins technically not being quite the "legal tender" that bills are?

      Getting back to the hair-salon problem... if you do not want to accept cash payment after rendering services, then you'd better get your payment in advance of providing the service. Because after you've extended credit and the consumer has been provided with a non-returnable service, your rights are very limited. You can accept the cash, you can forgive the debt, (let them walk away without paying, permanently nullifying the debt), or you can try to negotiate some other form of payment or credit extension, such as going home to get your purse. You have no legal right to refuse cash and demand a specific form of settlement for a debt, and no legal right to force the consumer to accept some other specific payment arrangement. If they don't want to walk to the car to get their purse, and they thrust cash at you, that's their right and you're down to "take-it-or-leave-it". You're not obligated to provide change, but you are also not entitled to refuse the cash without forgiving the debt.

      --
      I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    3. Re: This note is legal tender by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      Attempting to cause an unnecessary expense by going out of your way to procure small change is likely a separate tort on its own.

      At a minimum, it shows bad faith.

      There are probably edge cases where you could force them to accept it, for example if the debt was a royalty on vending machine receipts, and you paid by turning over the portion of collected quarters that you had set aside for them. But if you deposited the quarters in the bank, and then went out of your way to get different quarters to pay them with, then you're just trying to harm them by manufacturing a hassle.

      As far as services like hair salons, I find that it is widely appreciated by service workers if you tip in cash even when paying with a credit card.

      I entered one hair salon last year where they not only required CC payments, you had to actually sign up and give them a bunch of personal information just to get a hair cut. There were at least 5 employees there, and no other prospective customers, and yet they somehow managed to appear surprised when I laughed at them and walked out. I walked about half a block to find a small barber shop, where I only had to wait 10 minutes and received traditional service.

      So that's my advice; if you don't like the policy, walk. There will be others who value your cash.

    4. Re: This note is legal tender by dryeo · · Score: 1

      The angle I find interesting is that coins seem to be refusable to settle large debts. I think we've all seen stories of disgruntled people paying tickets and fines with wheelbarrows of pennies or nickels, and the discussion that follows, that some (usually government agencies) refuse to accept payment in small coin. I suspect this is due to coins technically not being quite the "legal tender" that bills are?

      Don't know about America, but here in Canada, coins are only legal tender up to some set amounts, from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      $40 if the denomination is $2 or greater but does not exceed $10;
              $25 if the denomination is $1;
              $10 if the denomination is 10 or greater but less than $1;
              $5 if the denomination is 5;
              25 if the denomination is 1.

      Harder to find info on American coinage but this site, https://coinsite.com/are-all-u... argues that no current coins are legal tender, but rather tokens.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    5. Re: This note is legal tender by v1 · · Score: 1

      As far as services like hair salons, I find that it is widely appreciated by service workers if you tip in cash even when paying with a credit card.

      That's because tips are taxable income. And it's very common for employees to "skim" some of their tips into their pockets and not record the full amount of their tips for the evening. This saves them some income tax. If you add your tip to the receipt when you settle your bill, that gets recorded and can't really be skimmed, and so they only take home a percentage of your $2 tip. Pay in green on the table and it likely will all go into their wallet.

      --
      I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    6. Re: This note is legal tender by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      You say this like it's a bad thing. Way I look at it, is if Google, Apple, and the rest of the rotten tech firms can avoid paying tax, who are we to moralize about someone being paid under minimum wage ("tipped wage") avoiding tax?

  7. Re:UBI article entirely vanished? by Calydor · · Score: 1
    --
    -=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
  8. It's getting like The Sneeches by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

    Those with cards and those without...

    Only 30% using cash is not good

    Guess we need a law...

    --
    “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    1. Re:It's getting like The Sneeches by Aighearach · · Score: 1

      The most popular local chain supermarket (WinCo) doesn't even accept CC! lol

      So there are still stores at the other end of the spectrum. They do accept debit, though.

      They also don't have baggers; you do that yourself. Keeps prices lower. It is better though IMO because if I bag it myself I know how it is packed and I know how to carry all the bags without injuring any fruits or veggies. At other stores I have to do the "self checkout" just to be allowed to bag!

  9. really? by Hugh+Jorgen · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Bringing legal cash tender is hardly ill prepared! Fuck this business and others like it. Though paying 40 bucks for someone to dry your hair is a serous first world problem to start with!

    1. Re:really? by Hugh+Jorgen · · Score: 1

      And? Doesn't change the fact that bringing cash is hardly ill prepared.

  10. Power shifting by lenski · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Though cash can be stolen, it is way more difficult for "authorities" or whoever to revoke remotely. Plastic, charge cards, debit cards are all revocable. I am *very* wary of a shift to mechanisms that can produce financial disability by remote control.

    It's been increasingly true for large purchases, but this changeover to plastic for small purchases (as in "food", etc.) is comfortably convenient and OK until it's not.

    These issues are separate from the question of how many entities get to "participate in", as in "charge a fee for" all transactions, outside the ability of the actual paying customers to affect those decisions.

    1. Re:Power shifting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I am *very* wary of a shift to mechanisms that can produce financial disability by remote control.

      This.

      Amazing how people and businesses are lining up to give make absolute autocratic control as convenient as possible for future autocrats.

      China's "social credit" system will become the model for Big Brother on a scale and granularity Huxley had never dreamed of.

      "No one may buy or sell unless..."

    2. Re:Power shifting by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Replace "authorities" with "fucking scum" or "foul pigs" and you have it right.

    3. Re:Power shifting by Powercntrl · · Score: 1

      Though cash can be stolen, it is way more difficult for "authorities" or whoever to revoke remotely.

      Paranoid much?

      It's far more likely some crackhead will mug you for the cash in your wallet, than your tin-foil-hat scenario (the secret government will seize my bank account, oh noes!) ever transpiring.

      --

      ---
      DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
    4. Re:Power shifting by e3m4n · · Score: 1

      It will force people to buy prepaid visa gift cards.

    5. Re:Power shifting by Waccoon · · Score: 1

      Though cash can be stolen, it is way more difficult for "authorities" or whoever to revoke remotely. Plastic, charge cards, debit cards are all revocable. I am *very* wary of a shift to mechanisms that can produce financial disability by remote control.

      It doesn't even have to be that paranoid. I always love it when the registers lose their network connection and the whole store grinds to a halt.

    6. Re:Power shifting by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      I always love it when the registers lose their network connection and the whole store grinds to a halt.

      Yeah, but is that because the cash drawers won't open and close, or is it because the cashiers can't add up a string of numbers as fast as they're read out, and work out the appropriate change from a three dollar bill.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    7. Re: Power shifting by Powercntrl · · Score: 1

      Oh come on, you don't think every Alt-Righter and SJW salivates at the thought of the power to completely cut someone off from economically interacting with society?

      Our entire economy is based on people pushing imaginary numbers from place to place. If those numbers could suddenly vanish, it would undermine faith in the entire system.

      To people with bigger imaginary numbers in their accounts, the public faith in those numbers is their power. You truly believe they'd want to fuck that up?

      --

      ---
      DRM is like antifreeze, to the MPAA/RIAA it's sweet, to the consumers it's poison.
    8. Re:Power shifting by nasch · · Score: 1

      Although whatever money you have in the bank is also electronically revocable. I'm not sure how long you would last on the money in your wallet.

  11. Discrimination by DanielRavenNest · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This discriminates against the "unbanked". About a third of US adults (including my long-term tenant), don't have a bank account, much less a credit card. There are many reasons for this - bounced a check/overdrew an account in the past, medical or job problems, etc. And for low income people, bank accounts can be expensive. BoA charges a service fee of $12 a month for balances below $1500. So my tenant just gets a money order to pay the rent, cause it is cheaper.

    Paper money states "This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private". Once you have accepted a service, such as from a hair salon or restaurant, you now owe a debt until it is paid. So they should have to take cash, even though it may upset their business methods.

    1. Re:Discrimination by Dan+East · · Score: 1

      Good point. I'm surprised this is going on in California of all places. Then again, maybe CA gives out debit cards to low-income residents (they're already trying to figure out how to fund free cell service).

      --
      Better known as 318230.
    2. Re:Discrimination by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 2, Interesting

      California also tends to be highly segregated and classist. The cashless/privacy-less businesses are deliberately set up as such, to keep people like the poor, recent immigrants, etc out. It's a form of class discrimination disguised as convenience.

    3. Re:Discrimination by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      There are many reasons for this - bounced a check/overdrew an account in the past

      Banks will not close your account because of bounced checks or overdrafts. In fact, they LOVE these irresponsible customers since they get to charge lots of fees.

      Most banks offer a "no-checking" account that only allows payments via a debit card, and then only if enough money is in the account. These accounts are usually free.

      medical or job problems, etc.

      What does this have to do with having a bank account?

      BoA charges a service fee of $12 a month for balances below $1500.

      Only for "normal" checking accounts. Who needs that? I haven't written a paper check in years.

    4. Re:Discrimination by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 2

      It isn’t just them— some people like to use cash for certain things because that is how they manage their spending. There are plenty of good reasons to prefer cash over cards, especially for transactions under $100. I like using cash where I think it may go unreported as income (a black economy is a good thing), and if it wasn’t for credit card points, I would go back to using it exclusively.

    5. Re:Discrimination by vadim_t · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Also children. It's perfectly reasonable for a child to go to a store or a hairdresser on their own.

    6. Re:Discrimination by dryeo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It isn’t just them— some people like to use cash for certain things because that is how they manage their spending. There are plenty of good reasons to prefer cash over cards, especially for transactions under $100.

      Studies, namely observing peoples brain activity, show that using cash has close to equal parts of disgust and pleasure whereas using plastic gets rid of the disgust part of the equation.
      For the average person, using cash automatically makes it easier to manage their money. They see it going and feel disgust.
      For the average business, it is the opposite, they want you to spend money without disgust by using plastic as you're more likely to spend.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    7. Re:Discrimination by Darinbob · · Score: 2

      Cashless is also like having a sign that says "no one over 40 allowed".

    8. Re:Discrimination by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yeah - that's intentional. These businesses don't want "their kind" in their establishments. Requiring cards is a low-pass filter on the people they feel are beneath them. "The trash can take itself out", etc.

      "No cash" at s brick-and-mortar is a label that says "an elitist asshole runs this place".

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    9. Re: Discrimination by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Ah, but it's +2 flamebait. Which is just funny. This is just proof that there are a lot of authoritarians and Kool-aid drinkers on Slashdot -- the place has changed since the late 90s, and not for the better.

    10. Re:Discrimination by sjames · · Score: 1

      Cash is a great way to manage things like shopping or "little extras" when that pile of cash is gone, you're done shopping. If your resolve may weaken, leave the card at home or locked up in the car so going over will be a pain in the ass.

    11. Re:Discrimination by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Exactly: it's twice as painful to spend cash, since there's "pain" upon withdrawal and pain upon actually spending it.

    12. Re:Discrimination by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      If you have a bad enough credit record/score then good luck getting any kind of account at a bank.

      Nonsense. Bank do not do credit checks before opening a bank account.

      Why would they? They are not offering credit.

    13. Re:Discrimination by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, they do.

      https://www.gobankingrates.com...

    14. Re:Discrimination by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      You see it, the bankster scum and government filth also see it. Cash is great because of its anonymity.

    15. Re:Discrimination by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Hell of a lot harder to track than card usage -- nothing is 100% foolproof, but anything that introduces friction into the system makes it more costly to track things.

    16. Re:Discrimination by sjames · · Score: 1

      The pile of cash is something you take out of the ATM on the way to shopping you intend to do anyway.

      It seems to work for a lot of people, but everyone is different.

    17. Re:Discrimination by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Also children. It's perfectly reasonable for a child to go to a store or a hairdresser on their own.

      Here in Norway you can get an "allowance card" for ages 10-12 (debit card, no online shopping, very small limits, no cash withdrawal) and "youth card" for ages 13-17 (debit card, online shopping, reduced limits). Neither allows for offline charges or has any credit as under 18yo can't incur debt. A significant portion of adults simply don't use cash at all, neither does their kids. It's all just numbers on a screen.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    18. Re:Discrimination by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Also children. It's perfectly reasonable for a child to go to a store or a hairdresser on their own.

      Why children? In my country there's specialised bank accounts set up for children while they are in primary school. I've had a debit card since I was about 7.

    19. Re:Discrimination by kenh · · Score: 1

      Your one-third of US adults not having a bank account is not an accurate number - it can't be. It's non-sensical.

      The FDIC puts the number at less than 7% in 2017:

      Estimates from the 2017 survey indicate that 6.5 percent of households in the United States were unbanked in 2017. This proportion represents approximately 8.4 million households. An additional 18.7 percent of U.S. households (24.2 million) were underbanked, meaning that the household had a checking or savings account but also obtained financial products and services outside of the banking system.

      Source: FDIC Survey

      Did you even think about the reality of your claim that 1/3rd of US adults only have the cash in their pockets, pay fees to cash government aid/payroll checks, and settle all their debts in cash/money orders?

      --
      Ken
    20. Re:Discrimination by tepples · · Score: 1

      I haven't written a paper check in years.

      My home state adds a surcharge for payment of annual income tax through anything but a paper check.

    21. Re:Discrimination by nasch · · Score: 1

      Once you have accepted a service, such as from a hair salon or restaurant, you now owe a debt until it is paid. So they should have to take cash, even though it may upset their business methods.

      The Department of Commerce has explained that that phrase does not mean merchants must accept cash. It's using the basic definition of a debt: where a creditor has borrowed money from a debtor. If you walk into your bank with a suitcase full of cash to pay off your car loan, they cannot refuse it. The hair salon can, though I don't know what their options are after you've gotten your mohawk other than letting you have it for free.

    22. Re:Discrimination by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      The Department of Commerce has explained that that phrase does not mean merchants must accept cash.

      Right, no one has to accept cash. They can choose not to trade with you instead. That doesn't apply here since the trade already took place.

      If you walk into your bank with a suitcase full of cash to pay off your car loan, they cannot refuse it. The hair salon can...

      No, the hair salon is in exactly the same position as the bank. They extended credit by performing the service prior to payment.

      ... I don't know what their options are after you've gotten your mohawk other than letting you have it for free.

      That is exactly the option they would have to take if they refused payment in legal tender. Whether they accept it or not, as far as the law is concerned your offer to pay your debt in full in legal tender satisfies the debt. Even if they refuse to accept your money you no longer owe them anything. Of course, they can ban you from the salon or simply charge you extra on your next visit (with payment up front) in an attempt to make up the loss.

      The reasonable solution, for those who don't want to deal with cash, would be to advertise the price as "$40 after $20 credit-card discount". If someone really wants to pay in cash they can, but they don't get the discount, and that $20 will go a long way toward offsetting the additional trouble of handling cash.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    23. Re:Discrimination by nasch · · Score: 1

      They extended credit by performing the service prior to payment.

      Do you have a citation for that claim? Since we're talking about a legal issue, there should be either case law or a statute that states that accepting a service before paying for it means taking out a loan.

  12. Not paying by card as it costs 2-5% by short · · Score: 4, Insightful
    There is a real reason why to use cash - as for the card payment the card company + bank charge 2-5% of the amount to the shop. Therefore the shop has to raise their prices by 2-5% which in the end is always paid by the customer - by me.

    Now handling cash is also not for free but at least with bigger shops it is not 2-5%. Anyone has an idea how much does the cash handling and transfers cost?

    1. Re:Not paying by card as it costs 2-5% by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Actually, they don't prohibit a cash discount, they prohibit an extra charge for credit cards. Cash discounts happen all the time in places like gas stations. It just needs to be phrased correctly not to breach the banksters' contract.

    2. Re:Not paying by card as it costs 2-5% by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      Most merchant accounts are going to pay 2% or less. A small merchant that takes in ~$1500/day is generally going to be better off paying the $30 in credit card fees compared to the hassles of managing cash.

      I would guess they would end up paying about $3 per cashier drawer to count cash, and another $10 per day to break down the cash for new drawers, and maybe $10/day for going to the bank. When you add back the risks of handling cash, it might not be worth it. As you work with more cash, the costs likely increase proportionately.

    3. Re:Not paying by card as it costs 2-5% by short · · Score: 1

      All shops charge extra whether you use the card or not. But if we all do not use any cards then we no longer have to pay the ransom.

    4. Re:Not paying by card as it costs 2-5% by DogDude · · Score: 1

      Your math is suspect. First off, no small retailer is paying 2%. Closer to 3%. So in your example, that's $45/day.

      So yes, I agree that they probably spend about $3/day counting, and $20/week in cash maintenance. That's approximately $6/day. That's a difference of $39/day. That's $273/week. That's $14,196/year. I don't know about you, but $14,196 for a small merchant isn't anything to sneeze at.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    5. Re:Not paying by card as it costs 2-5% by rudy_wayne · · Score: 1

      Actually, they don't prohibit a cash discount, they prohibit an extra charge for credit cards. Cash discounts happen all the time in places like gas stations. It just needs to be phrased correctly not to breach the banksters' contract.

      That hasn't been true for a couple of years now.

      Visa and MasterCard used to have a rule that merchants could not charge people a fee for using a credit card. A group of merchants sued and won. That rule no longer exists.

      However, I pay for 99.9% of everything I buy with a credit card and I have never encountered anyone charging extra. The truth is, businesses hate paying that 3-4% but any business that tries to charge extra is going to lose customers very quickly.

    6. Re:Not paying by card as it costs 2-5% by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      10 cents more per gallon of gas for using a crap card instead of real money seems to be the norm. And rightly so -- people using cards and thus buying into the surveillance state deserve to be punished.

    7. Re:Not paying by card as it costs 2-5% by dissy · · Score: 3, Informative

      Anyone has an idea how much does the cash handling and transfers cost?

      I can answer that for the case of very small companies, in our case a 6 person ISP at the time, as I was the person handling the monthly billing cycle.

      Basically the costs were so insignificant they weren't even taken into account.

      We had one of those cash register drawer lock boxes, about $20-30 one time expense, that was kept in a locked desk drawer in a locked office.
      Once every two weeks, assuming we had anything in it, I would leave work on Friday about 30 minutes early but still "on the clock", drive to the bank on my way home, and despot the cash in the ATM, bringing the receipt back with me Monday.

      For the most part the ATM was on my way, so didn't cost any more in gas or wear and tear on my car than compared to say stopping for fast food on the way home.
      Like I said we literally didn't even factor that in, because from my point of view I got to leave 30 minutes early for a 10 minute task and beat out rush hour traffic. So I felt no reason to complain.

      Even the company I work for now of about 200 employees uses this same method, although I'm not involved in billing. The plant controller handles the petty cash, which as far as I know is the only reason for having cash there.
      We do however have expense forms to report millage on for any personal vehicle usage for work purposes.

      10-15 minutes of time plus what, 0.05 miles of gas, are variables so inexpensive that I never bothered mathing that out since, as you can see, they are so very insignificant.

      The only one potential factor I have no experience with is for frequent and larger cash amount runs. One may make the argument that the safety of the person doing the ATM run should come into play.

      Once you hit that point however, at least in the late 90's, Dunbar armored car services were around $60/visit to do that for you.

    8. Re:Not paying by card as it costs 2-5% by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      I think there are still some gas stations that give a discount if not paying with a card.

    9. Re:Not paying by card as it costs 2-5% by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      Square and PayPal are 2.75%; my business non-swipe payments are about 1.75%, but our Line of Credit banking relationship likely subsidizes it a quarter-point. We don't take Amex, which is about 3.5% if we offer it, and we do have a monthly fee of around $50. We do well under $100k per year on credit cards though, the vast majority now is EFT.

      Legacy providers can really rip you off, but if you shop your merchant services fees you can get good deals.

      Walmart and their ilk generally pay closer to 1% plus $0.12 per transaction. I think gas stations pay the highest rate due to fraud issues, and that is in the 3-4% range.

    10. Re:Not paying by card as it costs 2-5% by davecb · · Score: 1

      Just FYI, in the EU the cost of payment processing is a fraction of a percent. A former employer would have loved to use their EU processor for US debts. Alas, no dice!

      --
      davecb@spamcop.net
    11. Re:Not paying by card as it costs 2-5% by guruevi · · Score: 1

      Depends on the business. In a shop like a hair salon, you basically rent out a chair to whatever hair person and they handle their business privately while handing over a percentage based on the number of customers they served.

      Going cashless is an easy way to both have yourself handle the money, check your subcontractors aren't underreporting their customers and avoid having your subcontractor walk away after a few weeks without ever paying the fees (and going to court over a few hundred dollars which they'll dispute the veracity of vehemently is simply not worth it).

      For coffee shops and similar places about 7% of revenue is lost due to theft, it's hard to prove even with CCTV, but going cashless basically eliminates employee theft which consists of the majority of theft within a business (more even than shoplifters and fraud)

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    12. Re:Not paying by card as it costs 2-5% by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      So basically, small businesses are able to do what Apple, Google, and a bunch of other mega-corps do every day. Sorry, I'm not going to get too worked up about it.

    13. Re:Not paying by card as it costs 2-5% by kenh · · Score: 1

      Your math is suspect. First off, no small retailer is paying 2%. Closer to 3%. So in your example, that's $45/day.

      How many transactions contribute to that $1,500 daily transaction total? In addition to the $45 in estimated fees (3%), there are "per transaction fees" of around 30 cents. Assume the retailer conducts 100 $15 average transactions/day and that increases the "cost of credit card convenience" from $45 to about $75 (100 x 30 cent fees = $30). That's $75/day - that's nearly the cost of a minimum wage worker for a full 8 hour shift.

      Yeah, credit cards are cheaper - how many $1,500/day retailers can afford to spend $75/day just to avoid "dealing" with cash?

      On the other hand, there are customers that walk around "cashless", and can only make purchases with their credit/debit cards - and they probably out-number "bankless" patrons (6.5% of US households have no bank account).

      --
      Ken
    14. Re:Not paying by card as it costs 2-5% by kenh · · Score: 1

      The truth is, businesses hate paying that 3-4% but any business that tries to charge extra is going to lose customers very quickly.

      You are paying extra to use credit cards, it's factored in to the price of every item you buy at a retailer that accepts credit cards. If everyone paid with cash, prices "could" be lowered, as business expenses would be lower (by about 3%). Retailers like cash because it saves them a 3% fee per transaction, which more than covers the "expense" of handling cash.

      --
      Ken
  13. You want weed in Cali... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Bring cash, because dispensaries take nothing else.

  14. Shut your hole by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    At a place like a hair stylist where you typically receive the service 1st then pay, they legally have to take the cash. Since they provided the service before taking payment you are now in debt to them. Read the note on all US bills "Legal tender for all debts public or private" If they dont want to take it (refused payment) I am no longer in debt to them and will just walk out.

    As for the anecdote about some bars not taking cash any longer, it is just completely stupid. Cards slow down the process at a place like a bar so much. A bar i frequent refused cards for the longest time if you walked up to the bar with a card you were pointed towards the ATM sitting in the corner. They gave in and got card readers. The process now is so slow compared to cash, even if the bar tender had to break your larger bill and bring you change.

    Ring up the bill in the register, swipe the card, print the receipt take the receipt and card back to the patron for signature. In all this time 2 or 3 cash paying patrons could have been served. God forbid its a card tab. I see bartenders spending minutes shuffling though the pile of cards they have at the bar trying to find that person card, If not having to go back again and confirm the person's name, ring up all the drinks of the tab and repeat the whole process above. Get a few people back to back closing out tabs and you have a bunch of annoyed customers waiting several minutes to place their orders, god forbid the tab holder has questions about their tab.

  15. Lazy and cheap businesses by Dan+East · · Score: 2

    This is just businesses (IE the corporate level that makes decisions) being lazy and cheap. If you don't accept cash...

    You don't have to worry about your employees stealing it, so you don't have to audit it to make sure tills balance out and that deposits match sales receipts.
    You don't have to train your managers to make sure they have proper cash and change on hand when the business opens daily.
    You don't have to pay employees for the overhead time of counting cash when shifts start or end.
    You don't have to pay managers for making trips to banks to get change or make deposits (yes, I know, many businesses already don't pay them for their time while doing this).
    You don't have to have a special safe or procedures in place for when too much cash accumulates.
    You don't have to have local bank accounts for deposit.
    You no longer have to make sure your employees can count or do simple math.
    Insurance is likely cheaper since cash doesn't have to be insured and the risk of robbery is decreased.

    None of this has anything to do with what the customers want, or what is convenient to them. It is about saving money and reducing the responsibility you entrust to managers and employees and consolidating control.

    --
    Better known as 318230.
    1. Re:Lazy and cheap businesses by apoc.famine · · Score: 2

      You call it lazy and cheap, others would likely call it innovative and efficient.

      For what good reason should your hairdressers be accountants, security guards, and couriers? Back in the day businesses had a cashier, but as time goes on, it's clear that that's not a required position.

      If you don't need to store cash, as you point out, you don't need procedures, audits, staff training, specialized hardware and software, daily (or at least weekly) trips to the local bank, insurance, concerns about embezzlement and tax issues, etc. From the standpoint of a business in a competitive market, none of this makes you money. It's all a cost. And if the cost is more than the business lost not accepting cash, it's a net gain to go cards-only.

      I get that a lot of people (me included) have issues with the tracking of electronic payments. But this is capitalism. To be successful, you need to make sure you're controlling your costs. Not accepting cash is one such way.

      You don't have to agree, and you don't have to patronize businesses that make this decision. Until they all do. Unfortunately, once businesses see a new way to reduce costs trialed successfully, a lot will join suit. Better get in the habit of buying pre-paid Visa cards, I guess.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    2. Re:Lazy and cheap businesses by DogDude · · Score: 1

      It doesn't cost anywhere near 3-4% to handle cash.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    3. Re:Lazy and cheap businesses by MeNeXT · · Score: 1

      Credit or cash you still need to check for employee theft no matter what. You're an idiot if you don't. It will catch you soon enough.

      You need to train your managers to issue credits, pull reports, balance shifts.

      Cashing out takes the same amount of time with cards or cash to prevent fraud.

      You have to pay managers to research charge backs and waste time dealing with a CC company ensuring payment. Complete loss if the card was stolen.

      Yes you need a safe procedure no matter what the form of payment is. The potential for credit card fraud and identity theft is very real.

      Where do you think the payments for credit cards are deposited? You can have one bank account and you can deposit at any branch, credit card or cash. Same amount of work.

      If your employees can't count then you are an idiot for hiring them. Giving change is a simple matter of training. Needed no matter what you do.

      You have more charge backs than insurance fees.

      There is no savings here. If the case was to save money then the cheapest solution would be accepting checks and you can see how many stores do that.

      --
      DRM? No thanks, I'll just get it somewhere else...
    4. Re:Lazy and cheap businesses by apoc.famine · · Score: 1

      Please provide some data to back up your assertion.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    5. Re:Lazy and cheap businesses by DogDude · · Score: 1

      What data do you want? A cash register that can do a thousands of business in a day can be counted in ten minutes. The pile of cash that needs to be counted, for say, a weekly bank deposit, can take 30 minutes to an hour. Depending on how far the bank is, it can take a half hour to go and come back form a bank to deposit said cash (and pick up change). Considering most businesses (even tiny ones) are open 50-80 hours/week, an hour a week is less than 2%, even if it's a one person company.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    6. Re:Lazy and cheap businesses by apoc.famine · · Score: 1

      You are wrong. It's far cheaper to just take cards.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    7. Re:Lazy and cheap businesses by DogDude · · Score: 1

      You are wrong. It's far cheaper to just take cards.

      That's a hell of an argument. Really. That's impressive. It's well thought out, and supported by facts.

      But seriously, if a business needs to spend more than 3% of their gross sales to handle cash, then that organization is severely broken, and/or is run by mentally incompetent people.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
    8. Re:Lazy and cheap businesses by apoc.famine · · Score: 1

      Oh, you precious little child. Remember three posts back, when I said, "Please provide some data to back up your assertion."? And then you didn't do that?

      You thinking something is some way doesn't make that true. Doesn't matter what your gut tells you. Data are data. You've so far provided none. If you want to be taken seriously, post a link to some data.

      --
      Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
    9. Re:Lazy and cheap businesses by kenh · · Score: 1

      You don't have to worry about your employees stealing it, so you don't have to audit it to make sure tills balance out and that deposits match sales receipts.

      Right, because employees never steal credit card numbers or make mistakes entering transaction amounts n credit card machines.

      You don't have to train your managers to make sure they have proper cash and change on hand when the business opens daily.

      You think this is an issue? You write out on a piece of paper the following:
      At the end of each day all cash except $400 needs to be removed from the cash drawer and deposited.
      The $400 in the drawer should include (if possible) 2x $20s, 5x $10, 20x $5, 50x $1, and at least one roll of each coin denomination (Penny, Nickle, Dime, Quarter) as well as whatever loose coins are in the coin drawer bins.
      All $100 and $50 bills are to be removed and deposited at the end of the day.

      That is a one-time training exercise for your manager.

      You don't have to pay employees for the overhead time of counting cash when shifts start or end.

      No, you pay the manager to do it, and it takes 5 minutes per drawer.

      You don't have to pay managers for making trips to banks to get change or make deposits (yes, I know, many businesses already don't pay them for their time while doing this).

      If they aren't getting paid for it, it isn't an expense.

      You don't have to have a special safe or procedures in place for when too much cash accumulates.

      Wow. The procedure is "remove large bills when they become too numerous ($20, $50, and $100 bills) and keep a supply of smaller bills on hand to resupply depleted drawers." Keeping the cash in a lockbox in the managers office is not a big deal.

      You don't have to have local bank accounts for deposit.

      Having a local bank account is a problem?

      You no longer have to make sure your employees can count or do simple math.

      So, as a retailer I'm expected to pay a "living wage" of $15/hr for employees that can't count or perform simple math?

      Sorry, counting and basic math are required skills for a clerk no matter the form of payment employed. When you go to Wendy's and order 4 cheeseburgers for your family, it would be nice if the counter clerk knew how many "4" was...

      Insurance is likely cheaper since cash doesn't have to be insured and the risk of robbery is decreased.

      Unless, you know, the robbers want the items you are selling. Sure, stealing a lot of cash is best, but walking out of a jewelry store with a bag full of their inventory has value too...

      --
      Ken
    10. Re:Lazy and cheap businesses by kenh · · Score: 1

      There is a not insignificant proportion of the retail market that relies on transactions that can't support 3% + 30 cent transaction fees, and that's typically any enterprise that enjoys average ticket sizes of $1-10 (convenience stores, news stands, coffee shops, fast food restaurants, etc.)

      If you went into McDonalds and convinced them to go "cashless", do you think business expenses, and hence their prices, would go up or down because of that decision. What happens a person steps into a "cashless" McDonalds and only wants a $1 soda? Will McD be happy to give up 33% of that sale to the credit card company? No, FIrst thing they'll do is buy a bank, to lower transaction costs, then raise soda prices to account for the new cost of business.

      --
      Ken
    11. Re:Lazy and cheap businesses by DogDude · · Score: 1

      You need "data" to know how long it takes a person of average intelligence to count up a thousand bucks' worth of cash? Really? I don't know if you know how research works, but you could just do this research on your own: Start by opening your wallet. Count what's there. Measure how much time it takes. Extrapolate from there.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
  16. Re: Card pays more than $$$ by edris90 · · Score: 2

    Cash is inherently more honest I'm because then the transaction is only between the two parties. Cards are dishonest because it allows third party to collect transaction fees, off of the transaction that is private between you and the vendor. Is not honest to allow passive third-party fee collection. This rewards dishonest business practices. Nobody should get paid for doing nothing while getting to present themselves as successful honest business. Any entity is allowed to accumulate enough resources, the ability to hack the system in their favor. This is what we must prevent at all costs

  17. Sure I love giving 3% or my income away by Crashmarik · · Score: 1

    To payment processors.

    1. Re:Sure I love giving 3% or my income away by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      When compared to check or EFT, sure 3% is a lot. For cash though, the cost is non-zero for proper handling. If you just put the cash in a cookie jar in the kitchen and don’t report it, it might be less of an issue.

    2. Re:Sure I love giving 3% or my income away by DogDude · · Score: 1

      There's a lot of space between "non-zero" and 3%. Specifically, almost 3%.

      --
      I don't respond to AC's.
  18. All debts... by torkus · · Score: 2

    For all debts, public and private. It says so right on the bills.

    Now, someone can refuse to SELL you something as you haven't incurred a debt at that point. But if you've been rendered a service (or generally own someone money outside of an immediate transactional service like retail sale) then cash is, as it says, legal tender for that debt.

    It would make an interesting court case, but I highly doubt the US government would allow a court case saying it's OK to refuse US Legal Tender. If for no other reason than they have a very strong, vested interest in maintaining the $ as broadly accepted currency - it's a big part of the reason behind it's stability. If the country issuing it says it's OK to refuse it, that sets a very dangerous precedent.

    tl;dr: Currency says it's for all debts and US Gov't wouldn't undermine the $ value/stability by allowing it to be refused. Story is a non-story. They have to take it or forego payment.

    --
    You can get rich if you own a politician, but you have to be rich to buy one in the first place.
    1. Re:All debts... by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Whet do you do if they refuse to accept cadh fir the debt and don't give you a receipt for it? How do yiu prove that debt is paid?

    2. Re:All debts... by torkus · · Score: 1

      If they refuse to accept cash, they're refusing payment. Document it with a cell phone video and leave.

      Equally, businesses (I believe) are required to issue receipts.

      --
      You can get rich if you own a politician, but you have to be rich to buy one in the first place.
    3. Re:All debts... by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      For all debts, public and private. It says so right on the bills.

      Wowowow no. Please don't get hung up on the commoner's definition of debt = you owe someone money. That's not how debt is legally defined. It's also not the intent of the statement about legal tender.

      Debt as far as legal tender is concerned can only be incurred in the form of a fixed financial contract. You are not in debt between the time you finish your dinner and when you pay, or when you fill up your car (especially in the latter case as stupidly outlined in the conversation because their goods haven't even left the premises yet. If you walk out you will also be charged under different legal frameworks (stealing vs breach of contract).

      Legal tender for all debts public and private means exclusively that the USA central bank will accept USD bills to close out any outstanding debt, and that private banks need to handle debt likewise. For instance when you keep your money in a bank, read through your contract. It's a signed contract signifying the "debt" they owe you. Nothing more

      And since this will come up 100 more times in this thread I'm now going on a copy-paste-athon.

      It would make an interesting court case

      It really wouldn't. It would be a frivolous case and I would hope your lawyer would advise you against it since he hopefully knows what debt actually is.

  19. Not Here by Kozar_The_Malignant · · Score: 1

    Here in Humboldt County, ands other places where the pot economy is strong, cash is king. Very few businesses blink at a $50 or $100 bill. Most medium sized businesses have they own bill counting and banding machines in the back room. It isn't unusual to see signs stating no debit or credit cards for purchases under $X.00, but I've never seen one stating no cash.

    --
    Some mornings it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints to get out of bed.
  20. Re:paywalled by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    If only getting around the paywall was a thing.

  21. Re:Dishonest headline by Cederic · · Score: 1

    On what grounds are they seeking to discourage me?

    I know I'm not the prettiest person to walk into a shop but most businesses welcome my custom.

  22. If you won't take my money by JustAnotherOldGuy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If you won't take my money, you won't get my money.

    I mean, aren't you in the business of getting money? Isn't that what the actual end-goal is?

    It's Business 101: get the money.

    But it's not a problem, I'll just shop elsewhere.

    I'll also vigorously shit-talk your hipster establishment non-stop, probably on Yelp as well as everywhere else I can think of.

    --
    Just cruising through this digital world at 33 1/3 rpm...
    1. Re:If you won't take my money by ledow · · Score: 1

      Take an American Express card, go to the UK, see how far that argument gets you.

      Or cheques.

      Lots of things used to be ways-to-pay and are no longer accepted in the majority of shops. Cash is no different in this respect. Try spending a GBP50 note in a small-town store. Or using a Bank of Scotland ten pound note across the border. All are "money". But stores and individuals selling literally won't take them from you.

      Because, especially with cash, the hassle of dealing with some forms of payment is worth losing the custom of a handful of vocal and stubborn customers. Cash-business pay a lot of money to handle it. From storing it, securing it, counting it, verifying it, checking it, collecting it, sorting it, banking it, etc.

      Your attitude will work in a minority of places. And everyone else will go on conducting business in the most efficient way for them anyway.

      I haven't carried cash for 20 years. It actually costs businesses NOT to accept card, in my experience. I've walked out of shops because they won't take a card, only cash... and even with them yelling that there's an ATM just across the road - sorry, guys, I'll find a place that doesn't inconvenience me.

      Mug me, and all you get are a crappy old phone that's useless to you but tracking you, and a bunch of cards protected by codes, that I can cancel within minutes (and, with my card companies, re-activate if I do find them later).

      Cash is on its way out and your refusal to accept that if it does won't change anything.

    2. Re:If you won't take my money by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Yet Germany, Italy, and many East/Central European countries remain cash-heavy. Why? Because they value their privacy and experienced the consequences of a heavily controlled society. The UK's problem is that it's bought and paid for by American banking interests.

  23. Transactions recorded and tracked: BINGO by lenski · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Yet another way the balance of power shifts in a cashless society.

    1. Re:Transactions recorded and tracked: BINGO by epyT-R · · Score: 1

      correct.

  24. Re:MeToo by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

    You're also generally not required to carry your cell phone 24/7 unless you have an "on call" job. Can't reach me? Leave a fucking message and wait like a good boy or girl.

  25. Sux to be a tourist I guess by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Outside oneâ(TM)s home country every plastic exchange has a foreign currency fee. Getting cash from an atm and using it for smaller purchases minimizes such fees. Or do customs people or banks provide no-cost plastic alternatives when arriving?

  26. Technological Solution by physicsphairy · · Score: 2

    Since ancient times we have had to deal with the problem of markets preferring one type of payment but having an influx of other kinds. Meant there was money to be made offering the service of converting to the preferred currency. Malls, airports, or anywhere with concentrated shops will have had ATMs available exactly so people can get their electronic holdings into a spendable format. Seems like we will start installing machines to accept deposits and put them on temporary credit cards, or something similar.

    But I do wonder if refusing cash is an actually business savvy phenomenon which will endure. Spend untold amounts on advertising for the one in a thousand chance someone who sees the ad will come to your shop, and then turn away guaranteed customers with payment in hand? When a competing shop shows up accepting cash, I will bet their mistake becomes evident.

  27. In this context it is. Sue you? by raymorris · · Score: 1

    In this context, it's a debt after the service has been rendered.
    For your own analysis of your financial situation, you can use whatever definition of "debt" you want.

    Think about it this way. After they refuse your cash payment and you walk away, what would be their next step? They could sue you, saying you owe them $40. You'd walk into court with the cash in hand, saying "I tried to pay them" and the judge would have a few words for them about wasting the Court's time. They could refuse service to you next time, saying "you still owe us $40 from the last time" - "owe us", a debt.

    1. Re:In this context it is. Sue you? by Bengie · · Score: 1

      By law, I cannot be arrested for not paying a debt unless it's by court order. I can be sued for non-payment and be garnished, but that's it. There are laws around debt repayment. If it's a debt I owe, then I guess I can walk off and pay later.

    2. Re:In this context it is. Sue you? by raymorris · · Score: 1

      That's right, in the US you can't be arrested for non-payment of debt per se. If you never intended to pay, that would be theft of services, shoplifting, or another similar crime for which you could be arrested. The crime there is taking the thing without intending to properly pay for it. (Here we assume the taking is from a merchant, who gives you permission to take it, provided that you pay for it).

      Tax crimes for which you can be arrested involve the returns you file or fail to file, rather than the amount you pay.

  28. Why is it a problem? by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1

    Any of the workers can take that $40, and put it on their card. Can work in most situations. Stand in line, give the cash to the next one in line and order the coffee to be put on the card of another person. They get the brownie points and the benefits...

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    1. Re:Why is it a problem? by bingoUV · · Score: 1

      You're right. But it is a problem if most retailers do this - so the store worker or the next customer does not have much use for the cash you give them - unless they do the hard work to get it deposited in banks. Plus they incur all the risk for fake cash, robbery etc. To top it, banks are making it less and less convenient to deposit cash too.

      Of course, the robber is a highly motivated and adventure loving person. So the hard work / risk problem does not present itself when the robber is concerned.

      --
      Bingo Dictionary - Pragmatist, n. A myopic idealist.
  29. UK, cash... by bb_matt · · Score: 2

    and at some pubs in the U.K., you can no longer get a pint with pound notes.

    You haven't been able to get a pint with pound notes since 1988, so that would be ALL the pubs in the U.K. You can still get pints with pound coins, although contactless is the norm these days. It will be a very sad day when physical currency is no longer legal tender, all anonymity of payment will be lost - which kinda makes the idea of cryptocurrency payments suddenly more relevant, except for that tricky issue of volatility ...

  30. and then the system is down? and can they call cop by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    and then the system is down? and can they call the cops if you don't have a card and they will not take your cash?

  31. It's not that they can't take cash by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

    So it's not really that they can't take cash. They can. They just can't make change. So if you give them exact change, you're probably OK. Just leave it and walk out, what they gonna call the cops or something?

    --
    Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
  32. A retailer answers by DogDude · · Score: 5, Informative

    Handling cash is not expensive. It's much less than 1%. A big store spends about one man hour a day counting, and about another two man hours a week re-counting and going to the bank. We much, much, much prefer cash to cards. We do have to account for an extra 3% in our prices to pay for the cards that most people use.

    When I'm out and about spending money, I always use cash.

    --
    I don't respond to AC's.
    1. Re:A retailer answers by guruevi · · Score: 2

      About 7% of average business revenue is lost in theft, the majority of which is employee theft. For small coffee/food shops/chains and restaurants this number is a lot higher. Going cashless prevents the majority of theft, even if they have to pay 1-2% for the credit card fees.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    2. Re:A retailer answers by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The majority of employee theft is of goods, not cash

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:A retailer answers by kenh · · Score: 2

      About 7% of average business revenue is lost in theft, the majority of which is employee theft.

      Sounds made-up, but OK, let's go with your numbers.

      For small coffee/food shops/chains and restaurants this number is a lot higher.

      What? You mean the folks behind the counter at my local non-starbucks coffee shop are eating/drinking (stealing) 7% of sales?

      Going cashless prevents the majority of theft, even if they have to pay 1-2% for the credit card fees.

      They pay 3%, plus 15-30 cents/transaction:

      • On a $1 transaction, that is as much as 33%.
      • On a $2 transaction, that is as much as 18%.
      • On a $3 transaction that is as much as 13%.
      • On a $4 transaction, that is as much as 11%.
      • On a $5 transaction, that is as much as 9%.
      • On a $10 transaction it is as much as 6%.
      • On a $20 transaction, that is as much as 4.5%.
      • On a $40 transaction, that is as much as 3.75%.
      • On a $100 transaction, that is as much as 3.3%.

      There is a reason some stores refuse to accept credit card payment for tabs less than $5-6 dollars - they can't afford to lose 9% of their sale to the "convenience" of accepting credit cards.

      --
      Ken
    4. Re:A retailer answers by guruevi · · Score: 1

      Not in restaurant or coffee shop, there it is often cancelling a transaction and pocketing the cash or lifting a few bills extra from the till during an exchange. Fast food places generally don't care if you eat and drink on the job, you can't eat/drink that much in a day and you'll get rather sick of the same stuff all day.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    5. Re:A retailer answers by guruevi · · Score: 1

      No, they aren't eating/drinking, they give away food to friends, they over-return to friends, they get sticky fingers, they cancel a transaction and pocket the cash. I've worked in the business, I've seen it all and 7% is what the average is of theft across business and what restaurant chains and others report, in retail, 60% of this is employee goods theft and 40% shoplifting but you can't really shoplift a latte from Starbucks, there it is often cash and transactions.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    6. Re:A retailer answers by guruevi · · Score: 1

      Your rates are well off. If you're often doing small transactions, a flat rate fee structure is better which is ~2.5% for card-present transactions. For large transactions you can opt for a fee + percentage ($0.15 + 1.25% is the average).

      For small business that don't do credit transactions often and don't want to pay a monthly fee and do a lot of online transactions, you indeed go to the 3.5-5% range.

      --
      Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
    7. Re: A retailer answers by mapkinase · · Score: 1

      It's much easier to do personal accounting when you deal only with plastic.

      --
      I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
    8. Re:A retailer answers by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      All wrong except cancelling transactions, that's real. But if the till is short, that's easily caught.

      Fast food places absolutely have a policy of firing people who steal product, although like all other rules it is enforced selectively.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  33. It's almost as if accepting cash isn't free by rsilvergun · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I worked at a fast food joint when I was a kid that kept being robbed. It's a minor miracle I wasn't. The owner kept the lobby open 24/7 until finally somebody got pistol whipped by a robber and the local cops told that owner "next time somebody gets hurt we're gonna hold you criminally liable". Only then did the owner close the lobbies after 10.

    I can tell you that if you're running a business that can be robbed doing away with cash is a huge boon to the employees. Though it's going to be interesting when we become cashless and petty crime just goes away. I guess you can mug me for my shoes and my cell phone. But as soon as I get home I'm going to lock the cell phone (and modern DRM means you can't even use it for parts) and my shoes cost $50 bucks on Amazon.

    --
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  34. Legal Tender by Tomahawk · · Score: 1

    Cash is still legal tender, and this must be accepted as a form of payment. Certainly here in Ireland, and since our laws are typically similar, I would suspect that is also the case in the UK.

  35. Re:Article is Paywalled by schwit1 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Seriously? It's almost 2019 and you don't have a browser extension to bypass paywalls, and you're on /.?

  36. Checks by yanestra · · Score: 1

    Many people still get paychecks - like 60 years ago. Many others have no bank account, because of lack of proper papers or stains in their financial CV. Not accepting cash will deepen the social split.

  37. This is a stupid trend by Rick+Schumann · · Score: 1

    I and many others would just walk out of somewhere if they don't accept cash and take our business elsewhere.

  38. Can see both sides... by bradley13 · · Score: 1

    On the "cash is good side": Anonymity, ease of use, and it's cheaper (at least in theory: no transaction fee). It's also a more robust payment system, because it works even if there's a power outage, or your Internet is down, or whatever.

    On the other side, cash may not actually be cheaper, because someone has to count it, deposit it at the bank, run to get more change, etc.. There is also the risk of theft, depending on where you are located.

    For the, the winning argument is anonymity. A way to purchase items that doesn't add yet more personal data to the cloud. OTOH, it is possible that the GDPR will solve this problem. Your average shop does not ask you for permission to collect and share your purchase data - eventually, some privacy organization will notice this and file suit, and the penalties are stiff enough to get even the biggest company's attention.

    --
    Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
  39. I quit using CC at restaurants by nehumanuscrede · · Score: 1

    because I tire of my card being compromised. Too easy to hire waitstaff who make next to nothing and give them a card reader for the promise of extra pay every month.

    If payment requires my card to be out of my sight, I pay in cash.

    If you do not accept cash, well that is your problem. You either accept it or I get a free meal. It is not awkward at all.

  40. Big mistake by p51d007 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Once they take cold cash out of the equation, you have zero privacy in any transaction. Anything you purchase is recorded. The government is having an orgasm on how easy it has been to get rid of cash. Not just in the U.S., but globally.

    1. Re:Big mistake by walllaby · · Score: 1

      Funny, my cash is always warm, because it sticks in my pocket.

  41. Re:Democrat party to blame by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 2

    This is about authoritarian pigfuckers on all sides of the economic spectrum wanting more control. Conservatives will want to deny people health insurance if they buy too many condoms. Liberals will do the same for soda and fatty meat. Either way, authoritarians are shitty humans.

  42. Re:Article is Paywalled by Darinbob · · Score: 2

    If it's got a paywall, I don't need a way past it since I don't want to continue on that website any further.

  43. Cash handling and transfer costs by williamyf · · Score: 1

    Now handling cash is also not for free but at least with bigger shops it is not 2-5%. Anyone has an idea how much does the cash handling and transfers cost?

    Here is the relevant link:
    https://spectrum.ieee.org/geek...

    The article is only one page long, but the skinny is:
    Around 3% por small businesses and businesses which deal with little cash, and between 0,5 to 1% for big businesses which can better amortize the costs.

    If you were a good nerd in a "News for nerds and stuff that matters" site, you would be a member of IEEE, and would already know this. ;-)

    Plug: For all our fellow nerds and geeks: This is a great time in the year to become an IEEE member. Either if you are in EE like me, or a computer scientist. There are plenty or societies to chose from, among them the computer society, the communications society and many other. This unlocks a wealth of info and networking opportunities, and many other benefits.

    --
    *** Suerte a todos y Feliz dia!
  44. Difference between *TRANSACTIONS* and *DEBTS* by knorthern+knight · · Score: 1

    > For all debts, public and private.

    Please learn the ifference between *TRANSACTIONS* and *DEBTS*. Basically, they set up the system so that "food" preparation doesn't start until the transaction clears via the modem. E.g. you go to that Starbuck's mentioned in the article. Clerk rings up the order on the machine and waits for the final step...
    * "Will that be debit or credit?"
    * "No, it'll be cash"
    * "Sorry, we don't accept cash... next"
    * Clerk deletes partially-completed transaction on the machine.
    * No transaction, no debt, public or private.

    The clerk moves on to next customer. And if you argue too much, they call in the cops on you for "disturbing the peace".

    --

    I'm not repeating myself
    I'm an X window user; I'm an ex-Windows user
  45. It's so they can unperson you. by Truekaiser · · Score: 1

    Just like they are doing online. Do, say, or support something these tech companies don't like. You wake up the next day and your cards while still having money on them, are rejected.
    There's also the unchallenged legal aspect. In the united states paper money has been legally defined as usable to pay all debts public and private. Can a company legally refuse legal tender?

    1. Re:It's so they can unperson you. by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 1

      For a debt, no. More precisely, they can't consider the debt in default or attempt to collect on it if you've offered and continue to offer payment in full in legal tender and they refuse to accept it. The only thing lacking is teeth: a law stating that if a creditor is found to have begun collection or legal action on a debt where legal tender has been offered in payment and refused the creditor must bear all the debtor's costs and fees in the matter.

      Up-front transactions, where the merchant hasn't turned over the goods yet so no debt exists, would take additional changes in the law.

  46. Marijuana stores have the opposite problem by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

    Because banks are federally licensed, they can't deal with marijuana stores in legalized states, so businesses that deal in this product have to shuffle and store piles of cash. They hate this because handling cash is a security nightmare, but until federal law changes there is no other way of doing business.

    1. Re:Marijuana stores have the opposite problem by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Handling cash is not a security nightmare, but storing it is. Because they have to be able to get money back out again they can't use a locked drop safe at all times so they are vulnerable. The feds love crime so they foster it at every turn.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:Marijuana stores have the opposite problem by LaughingRadish · · Score: 1

      Read your premise again and think about your conclusion. It's not the handling of cash that's a security problem for marijuana shops, it's the storage. Lots of shops handle similar amounts of cash as do marijuana shops, BUT they can use banks. That's a big reason why banks started: they are secure places to store money.

  47. Presumably... by easyTree · · Score: 1

    ...the jurisdictions containing these businesses require them to accept cash?

    If someone were to create a website listing all of the businesses where one can avoid payment due to the business failing their responsibilities, would this be acceptable according to local laws ?

  48. Re:Democrat party to blame by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

    Found the idiot who assumes that the political spectrum is one-dimensional, not multi-dimensional. A continuum of left to right is a simplistic way to talk about politics.

  49. Getting to the real issue by sjames · · Score: 1

    It's time for the government to start issuing electronic money. Right now, the option is legal tender and corporate scrip that more or less freely exchanges with dollars (subject to fees and conditions).

    Even most Libertarians agree that issuing currency is the government's job.

  50. Stockholm by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 2

    I have yet to see a single physical retailer turn down cash.

    Visit Stockholm sometime. I was there for an academic conference. The main university canteen refused cash and even a mobile food wagon was credit card only and refused cash. I've not seen that before or since but I have encountered it now. The problem with this is that credit cards charge a percentage fee for foreign currency transactions and some have a minimum on this fee which can make it really expensive for small value transactions.

    1. Re: Stockholm by dskoll · · Score: 1

      I was in Stockholm in 2014 and mostly paid for things in cash. Maybe things have changed since then, or maybe touristy places are more willing to take cash.

    2. Re:Stockholm by kenh · · Score: 1

      The problem with this is that credit cards charge a percentage fee for foreign currency transactions and some have a minimum on this fee which can make it really expensive for small value transactions.

      You are being selective in your outrage.

      You claim the issue is that "credit cards charge a percentage fee for foreign currency transactions," yet you ignore that the currency exchange also charged you a percentage to convert (presumably) US dollars into Swedish Krona... unless of course, your employer handed you a stack of Swedish play money to cover your living expenses while attending the conference.

      --
      Ken
    3. Re:Stockholm by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

      You are being selective in your reading. It is not the problem that they charge a percentage fee it is that this percentage fee can have a minimum absolute value with some cards. If you spend $100 then you are right that the percentage fee means that there is little difference between the card fee and the exchange fees/low rates of a bureau de change. However, if you spend $10 and have a minimum transaction fee of say $1 the card is vastly more expensive.

    4. Re:Stockholm by PCM2 · · Score: 1

      Many travel-oriented cards now advertise that they don't charge foreign currency fees. And I believe Capital One, for one, is not allowed to charge such fees on any of their cards due to some way that they're incorporated.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    5. Re:Stockholm by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Many credit and debit cards don't charge a fee for foreign currency transactions, and will usually give you much better rates than you'd get by changing cash. If you plan to travel a lot then get a card that's appropriate for travel. https://www.revolut.com/ for instance.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
  51. Re:Have you tried to pay for Uber/Lyft with cash? by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

    Uber is a shit company -- their endgame is not to be a transportation company, but a "Big Data" company; selling their users' travel information to the highest bidder (the latter are their true "customers").

  52. Re:Legal Tender, but in what country? by davecb · · Score: 1

    That's narrowly a US decision, and US criminal law is per-state: always seek advice from a lawyer licensed for the state in question. In Canada, the law is country-wide, and in the case cited, one might well choose to call the police and charge the business with attempting to obtain goods or services upon a false and fraudulent pretence, that they can refuse to accept legal tender. At the very least, you could cause apoplexy (;-)) What the courts will eventually decide is not guaranteed, but I suspect there is at least one case (the essentials of life being purchased by a minor) where the vendor will never get to refuse service. Canada and the US used to have an agreement about currency exchange: I had to use Canadian money in Ohio once, as there was no nearby bank, and it was quite happily accepted at a discount.

    --
    davecb@spamcop.net
  53. When everything is cashless by rainer_d · · Score: 1

    In the next banking-crisis, they'll just make everyone bail-in with 10 or 20%.

    Oh, wait. I forgot. This is the US, where people don't have savings. Just debt and a bunch of credit-cards.

    Well, I guess the government can charge it to your credit-card, if they really want.

    --
    Windows 2000 - from the guys who brought us edlin
  54. Re:In Sweden places are starting to refuse plastic by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

    How do you buy a smartphone if your phone died, then?

  55. Flip side is cash cost money by aepervius · · Score: 1

    You have to have to transport the money back to the bank, have it deposited, but then you can get robbed in the shop, or even on the way from the shop to bank, you need insurance, after a certain amount or size you need actually a transport... And what is the cost of all of that ? Genuinely, it may actually be lower than 2 to 5%...

    --
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    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
    visit randi.org
  56. Also, screw the cash shaming by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 1

    It's making things awkward for those who come ill prepared. After all, you can't give back a hairdo, an already dressed salad or the two beers you already drank

    TFS is trying to shame people who pay in cash, like it's weird. I'm not sure where this high and mighty attitude is coming from, but I do know that I'm not ill-prepared I have cash, and will use it if I feel like to settle a debt.

    If you don't want to accept it, I made a legit offer of tender, if you refuse it, I'll take the $40 as windfall profits on my taxes.

    --
    Your ad here. Ask me how!
  57. 3% voluntary tax using credit cards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    There should be a law that makes it illegal to charge the same for legal tender transactions and credit card transactions which have a 1.5%-4.5% voluntary tax.

    Credit card operators are the original facebook+google.+AT&T+Verizon+Comcast all rolled into one.

  58. Legal Tender is not a law and not binding by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

    And have the right to pay with cash.

    The contract doesn't necessarily have to allow cash payments. What is written on your money is not legally binding to either party, it's just some stuff the US Treasury puts on our bills. You could argue that cash is binding to the US Treasury and perhaps to other parts of the government, because they are the ones that marked our money with the notice. So maybe you could pay the IRS in $1 bills, and win any protest they might make about it, maybe...

    If the terms of the contract are not clear to either party, the not a valid contract of course. So if I assumed it was a normal store that I could use cash at like any other store, then owner doesn't get to seemingly arbitrarily decides to demand payment in a special way. If the store owner puts a sign up somewhere or tells you before you make the transaction, you can either accept the terms or walk out without partaking in goods and services.

    Plastic only is a dumb policy for a store, restaurant, or bar. But you don't have a right to use cash anywhere you wish. At least not in the jurisdiction I'm familiar with (US). A municipality could require accepting cash to be part of operating a business, that would be very easy for your city, county, or state to pass. I'm not aware of any requirement by the government today, but I would be interested in being shown some references to the relevant legal code.

    --
    “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    1. Re:Legal Tender is not a law and not binding by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      What is written on your money is not legally binding to either party, it's just some stuff the US Treasury puts on our bills.

      OK, from now on I am accepting all your $100's as $1 bills. The denomination is not legally binding to either party, it's just some stuff the US Treasury puts on our bills. Internet lawyers, for fuck's sake...

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    2. Re:Legal Tender is not a law and not binding by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      OK, from now on I am accepting all your $100's as $1 bills

      If you can find someone to agree to that arrangement then great. Else we don't have a meeting of the minds and no valid contract can be formed.

      The denomination is not legally binding to either party, it's just some stuff the US Treasury puts on our bills.

      Let me be clear, I did not say fiat money is not valuable. That's not the argument here. What I attempted to describe is that "for all debts public and private" is not legally binding to the individuals using or in this case, explicitly refusing to use our money.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
    3. Re:Legal Tender is not a law and not binding by Dunbal · · Score: 1

      Else we don't have a meeting of the minds and no valid contract can be formed.

      I'll inform you of my opinion when you start asking me for change. Just like your sign forgot to ask me if I agreed before you performed services.

      --
      Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
    4. Re:Legal Tender is not a law and not binding by OrangeTide · · Score: 1

      Just like your sign forgot to ask me if I agreed before you performed services.

      Works in most common law jurisdictions. Feel free to have your day in court if you have the free time. Or you can save yourself a hassle and take my advice.

      --
      “Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
  59. Cash by argStyopa · · Score: 1

    As far as I'm aware, if the rule is established and posted clearly before the transaction, most courts will find that private businesses can set any sort of policy they want - they may only accept payment in Corgis, for example. Then it's the customer's choice if they use that vendor UNDER THOSE TERMS.

    But if that is not stated before the transaction, then they MUST accept US legal tender.

    --
    -Styopa
    1. Re:Cash by argStyopa · · Score: 1

      IANAL but AFAIK it's an administrative ruling from the Fed, which has the force of law unless there's superceding legislation.

      https://www.federalreserve.gov...
      Is it legal for a business in the United States to refuse cash as a form of payment?
      Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," states: "United States coins and currency [including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks] are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."

      This statute means that all United States money as identified above is a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person, or an organization must accept currency or coins as payment for goods or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether to accept cash unless there is a state law which says otherwise.

      --
      -Styopa
  60. Re:As someone who has been cash/check only... by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

    As far as peer pressure, acquire new friends. Preferably from countries (Latin America, Eastern Europe) where cash economies are the norm.

  61. Plastic Money by jfdavis668 · · Score: 1

    Move to Canada, where all the money is made of plastic. Problem solved.

  62. Relationship of privacy to freedom by shanen · · Score: 1

    Too brief to deserve that insightful mod, though you may have been the instigator of a productive branch of the discussion. However as I scanned it I couldn't find any clear statement of the underlying linkage. It's in my sig, actually.

    The more "they" know about us, the more they can eliminate our freedom by constraining and manipulating our choices. This is why privacy is intimately linked with freedom. If you have no privacy and "they" have some reason to manipulate you (as well as immense resources), then you will have no freedom.

    --
    Freedom = (Meaningful - Coerced) Choice != (Speech | Beer^2), and sad sock puppets' bad mods avail them naught.
  63. Boycott businesses that refuse cash! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Any business that refuses cash is forcing their customers to accept surveillance. It's just that simple. I refuse to let some vendor of trinkets and baubles blackmail me into surrendering my privacy and autonomy.

    Before you buy that burger or movie ticket, ask youself if it's worth exposing your digital footprints to a credit company, you bank, facebook, google, the federal government, Apple, your state government...

    1. Re:Boycott businesses that refuse cash! by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      you are so funny

      you already have a "digital footprint", credit card or not.

      you have no autonomy, you are subject

      and remember to pay your income tax

  64. tax haven transaction ??? by bigtreeman · · Score: 1

    There isn't anything stopping a credit card transaction from sending the funds directly to a tax haven.

    --
    Go well
  65. Theft vs contract dispute/violation by Firethorn · · Score: 1

    If not, you don't owe debt, and when you walk out of the bar you're not going to have lawyers come after you for your failure to close out your contractually obligated debt, you'll have the police coming after you for stealing.

    Tricky, but I'll try to explain. In the scenario you mention, where you just walk out, that shows you never had the intent to pay, which is indeed theft.

    But let us say that you attempt to pay by card and it is declined. Now, believe it or not, unless they can prove that you knew it was shut down, it isn't theft, but a contract violation, not criminal at all.

    Same deal with trying to pay with cash and them refusing. Contract violation, not criminal. At least in most areas.

    --
    I don't read AC A human right
    1. Re:Theft vs contract dispute/violation by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Yes an interesting edge case, however because the service rendered was due to be paid on the spot it still does not mean there is a legal obligation to pay USD cash. Curiously however if you get stuck you could negotiate a contract for future payment (I'll come back tomorrow and pay in full), at that point the other party stops becoming someone selling you a product or service and starts becoming a legal creditor.

      The same applies to companies which provide you invoices with later payment terms such as those that say (Net payment due within 30 days). One could argue they must accept cash at the end of these 30 days. Or companies which offer buy now pay later terms.

      But eating at a restaurant does not mean the restaurant at that time needs to accept your cash.

    2. Re:Theft vs contract dispute/violation by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      I never said that anybody is obligated to pay in cash. The question of the thread is whether the business is obligated to accept cash.

      And accepting cash may not be legally mandated, but let us follow the theoretical chain of events.

      I eat at a nice sit down restaurant, noting that they don't take cash. That is fine, I have a credit card. Now, personally I have several, but for this I only have one.

      I finish eating and go to pay the bill. My card is declined. I call the company, and find out that my card was shut off because somebody in California tried to buy gas with it. Actually happened to me, and no, I have never stepped foot into that state. They're mailing me a new card, but won't reactivate the one in my pocket. It will be around a week. Googling, the normal response to this is to take your information for you to return later and pay.

      Fortunately, I have cash sufficient to cover the bill, and offer that instead, because I don't want to come back. Most places will take this even against policy because, well, cash in hand is better than credit in the bush.

      Because a serious effort to pay has been made, it isn't theft or robbery, it is a civil issue. Worst case they sue me for payment, but the judge won't be happy to hear that they refused to take legit currency that is in normal denominations, not befouled, and in generally good condition.

      Your 'debt as a commoner thinks of it' line is spectacularly unuseful, by the way. It is an ad hominem attack. It also makes me think that you don't understand debt. Me, I'm not an accountant, but my parents are and I've had classes.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    3. Re:Theft vs contract dispute/violation by thegarbz · · Score: 1

      Oh I fully agree with everything. As I said in another thread, what is the legal definition and what is common sense aren't the same thing. If stuck I don't think you'll find any idiot stupid enough not to accept cash as it just makes everyone's life easier.

      Your 'debt as a commoner thinks of it' line is spectacularly unuseful, by the way. It is an ad hominem attack.

      No it's not, not in the slightest. It's a realisation that debt has two meanings. The common dictionary meaning (a neat oneliner saying you owe someone), and the legal one (the shortest definition I've seen here covers 2 paragraphs). It's not an ad hominem attack to point out that people here are applying the common meaning while discussing a scenario where the legal meaning applies.

      Also general accountants won't help you much here as accountants primarily deal with people who have typically quite common problems. Also having done accounting as part of school and my university degree, that doesn't help me either they sure as hell don't cover that there.
      You need to talk to is either a forensic accountant (those who liquidate companies and thus have typically spent equal parts of their degree studying financial law) or better still straight up lawyers specialising in finance.

    4. Re:Theft vs contract dispute/violation by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      You need to talk to is either a forensic accountant (those who liquidate companies and thus have typically spent equal parts of their degree studying financial law) or better still straight up lawyers specialising in finance.

      Why should we need to do this for something as basic as whether a debt has occured?

      https://legal-dictionary.thefr...

      DEBT, contracts. A sum of money due by certain and express agreement. 3 Bl. Com. 154. In a less technical sense, as in the "act to regulate arbitrations and proceedings in courts of justice" of Pennsylvania, passed the 21st of March, 1806, s. 5, it means an claim for money. In a still more enlarged sense, it denotes any kind of a just demand; as, the debts of a bankrupt. 4 S. & R. 506.
                2. Debts arise or are proved by matter of record, as judgment debts; by bonds or specialties; and by simple contracts, where the quantity is fixed and specific, and does not depend upon any future valuation to settle it. 3 Bl. Com. 154; 2 Hill. R. 220.
                3. According to the civilians, debts are divided into active and passive. By the former is meant what is due to us, by the latter, what we owe. By liquid debt, they understand one, the payment of which may be immediately enforced, and not one which is due at a future time, or is subject to a condition; by hypothecary debt is meant, one which is a lien over an estate and a doubtful debt, is one the payment of which is uncertain. Clef des Lois Rom. h.t.
                4. Debts are discharged in various ways, but principally by payment. See Accord and Satisfaction; Bankruptcy; Confusion Compensation; Delegation; Defeasance; Discharge of a contract; Extinction; Extinguishment; Former recovery; Lapse of time; Novation; Payment; Release; Rescission; Set off.
                5. In payment of debts, some are to be paid before others, in cases of insolvent estates first, in consequence of the character of the creditor, as debts due to the United States are generally to be first paid; and secondly, in consequence of the nature of the debt, as funeral expenses and servants' wages, which are generally paid in preference to other debts. See Preference; Privilege; Priority.

      Nothing in this says that eating at a restaurant where you eat before paying doesn't constitute incurring a debt. If you fail to pay, the restaurant can sue you for the cost of the meal. How could they do this if it isn't a debt?

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
  66. Critical difference:payment up front by Firethorn · · Score: 1

    Note, Starbucks is a pay first, then get your drink/food place. As such, there is no dent that they have to accept cash for.

    --
    I don't read AC A human right
  67. Refusing to take cash does not cancel debt by Firethorn · · Score: 1

    You are right, refusing to take cash won't cancel the debt. However, it does carry consequences. All of this depends upon exact jurisdiction, of course.

    1. By offering payment that is refused, criminal charges are off the table. They aren't stealing, they attempted to pay. Thus, contract violation, civil, rather than criminal theft.
    2. In many areas it stops the clock on fees and penalties for not paying immediately.
    3. You may have to take them to court to be paid. However, the odds are good, especially for petty amounts and not dickhead things like bags of pennies, that the court will simply order you to take the cash.

    --
    I don't read AC A human right
  68. It's broken. by WolfgangVL · · Score: 1

    somethings not right when they still want your money... just not THAT money.

    --
    You are being ripped off every second of every day, so that advertisers can help rip you off even more tomorrow.
  69. oblig. by PJ6 · · Score: 1
  70. Can I pay... by EdwardFurlong · · Score: 1

    ...my mortgage, gas bill, electric bill, cable bill, phone bill, property taxes, car insurance, water bill, credit card bill, health insurance, and car payment with cash?

  71. If somebody with enough power by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    to get you banned from owning credit and banking has it in for you then you're pretty well screwed already.

    The solution is to build other, parallel power structures to keep those sorts of people in check. Specifically a democratic socialist government. The "socialist" part is important because you need to make sure that everybody is taken care of or sooner or later you'll end up with a large number of dispossessed who'll go find themselves a dictator like we say in China, Germany, Russia, pretty much everywhere a significant portion of the population was abandoned to survival of the fittest..

    Anyway, If you don't like private companies having that much power there is a solution: Postal Banking. You've already accepted a fiat currency, so there's no point in railing against the gov't here; unless you're planing to go back to using chickens as a currency, but I wouldn't suggest it, they don't fit in any wallet you can buy on Amazon.com...

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  72. Coins & Crime by CohibaVancouver · · Score: 1

    I was once talking to an economist friend over a beer, and he idly mentioned that one way to end most crime overnight would be to replace the $1, $2, $5 and $10 bills with coins, and get rid of all paper currency. Would be VERY unpopular with the Slashdot crowd of course, but the fact remains it's pretty tricky to pay for half-a-millions bucks of heroin with 50,000 ten-dollar coins. If you assume a coin might weigh ten grams that's 500 kilograms worth of coins.

  73. Too much power in payment processor hands by Chas · · Score: 1

    The other part of this is the fact that it's concentrating a MASSIVE amount of economic and social power in the hands of the payment processors.

    Look at the issues with Patreon right now.

    Do you REALLY want someone like Visa or Mastercard being able to tell your bank to drop you as a customer?
    To simply refuse purchases by you because someone there doesn't agree with them?

    Fuck that noise.

    --


    Chas - The one, the only.
    THANK GOD!!!
  74. Keep the RiffRaff Out by dorzak · · Score: 1

    This actually is very anti any that are disadvantaged.

    Many poor or economically challenged if you prefer, do not have bank accounts - no debit card.

    Which also means poor credit, and no credit card.

    The prepaid cars have huge fees. $5-10 to load $10-100 on the card.

  75. Legal Tender: Refuse at your risk by darkonc · · Score: 1

    Cash is legal tender. Plastic is not. If I offer you cash (in reasonable denominations) to pay a debt and you refuse it, then the debt is cancelled. That's the law in Canada. Canada inherits that from British common law -- just like the US but with a later fork. This is an ancient principle, so it's likely to be the same in the US unless there was an explicit change. In this case (hair done), the debt is incurred so you don't even have the excuse of forward negotiation. For completeness: The debt can be incurred before the product is taken. If you run the items through the cash register and say "Total: $19.56", I now have a functional debt. If I hand you a $20 and walk away, the debt is paid. Of course: IANAL .. YMMV.

    --
    Sometimes boldness is in fashion. Sometimes only the brave will be bold.
  76. Faraway bank by tepples · · Score: 1

    Where do you think the payments for credit cards are deposited?

    In a bank that need not have a physical branch or deposit ATM near the place of business, such as an online-only bank.

  77. Re:You are being a fool by iggymanz · · Score: 1

    while posting on forum, you're totally traceable. lolz

    government can build profile on your pathetic ass if it wants, you've been in "the system" system birth. remember to file for your tax refund, luddy.

  78. Give it back! by Daralantan · · Score: 1

    After all, you can't give back a hairdo,

    I had a friend who was a hairdresser once. She worked for one of those overpriced salons at the mall. She was giving a little kid a haircut once. The mother decided she needed to leave for.....something? And told her that they needed to leave. She said she hadn't finished his haircut yet, and the lady basically said: "Whatever I already paid, we're leaving!" She then pulled off his apron and took him from the chair and left.

    Of course the next day she complained to management about her son receiving an "awful" haircut and demanded a refund and his hair be fixed for free.

    And also "of course" the management obliged and put in a formal warning against my friend. Because retail.

    Also I didn't realize there was some big issue going on about cash being used. I've not seen many (any that I can recall atm) places say cash isn't allowed.

  79. Really? by tehcyder · · Score: 1
    From TFS: "at some pubs in the U.K., you can no longer get a pint with pound notes".

    Setting aside the fact that we don't have pound notes any more (at least in England) is there any evidence that this is true?

    --
    To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it