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Facing Opposition, Amazon Reconsiders NY Headquarters Site: Report (washingtonpost.com)

Amazon.com is reconsidering its plan to bring 25,000 jobs to a new campus in New York City following a wave of opposition from local politicians, The Washington Post reported Friday [Editor's note: the link may be paywalled; alternative source], citing two people familiar with the company's thinking. From the report: The company has not leased or purchased office space for the project, making it easy to withdraw its commitment. Unlike in Virginia -- where elected leaders quickly passed an incentive package for a separate headquarters facility -- final approval from New York state is not expected until 2020. Tennessee officials have also embraced Amazon's plans to bring 5,000 jobs to Nashville, which this week approved $15.2 million in road, sewer and other improvements related to that project. Amazon executives have had internal discussions recently to reassess the situation in New York and explore alternatives, said the two people, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to speak candidly about the company's perspective.

173 comments

  1. Objecting to the give-away by XXongo · · Score: 5, Insightful
    What they're objecting to, of course, is not the jobs being brought in, but the massive taxpayer funded give-away that New York politicians promised (without any oversight) to give Amazon to tempt them to come, along with the tax breaks they promised as well, to make sure that they don't pay for it.

    A billion here, a billion there-- it adds up

    1. Re:Objecting to the give-away by XXongo · · Score: 4, Informative

      ...and not to mention that Amazon required a nondisclosure agreement from the cities bidding, so that the taxpayers actually couldn't know what their politicians were giving away.

      Which was: 3 billion dollars.

    2. Re:Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What they're objecting to, of course, is not the jobs being brought in, but the massive taxpayer funded give-away that New York politicians promised (without any oversight) to give Amazon to tempt them to come, along with the tax breaks they promised as well, to make sure that they don't pay for it.

      A billion here, a billion there-- it adds up

      And rightfully so. City officials should know what their city is worth and there is no sense in devluaing it offering corporations billions of dollars in taxbreaks and other goodies. It's like when you go to a job interview. You have to know how much you're worth so the prospective employer doesn't pay you less than you're worth.
      You think Amazon is going to go to some thrid wrold shithole in the middle of New Mexico or Texas ? Please lets all be realistic.

    3. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know of a city or two that would welcome amazon with open arms and a constant stream of tax subsidies. Amarillo, TX for example would definitely not tell them to go away.

    4. Re:Objecting to the give-away by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      What they're objecting to, of course, is not the jobs being brought in

      It is unlikely many jobs would be created. The limiting factor is housing, and very little new construction is being permitted. The roads can't handle many more commuters, and there are already shortages of labor in the area. So all this facility would do is suck employees from existing businesses.

      There would be little net economic benefit, which is another reason that the subsidies and tax giveaways were misguided. They are just replacing many small businesses that pay taxes and contribute to the community with one big business that doesn't.

    5. Re:Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      A tax break is not giving them money.
      It's simply refraining from taking it from them.

      High taxes == companies, jobs, and people leave your state.
      On the one hand they want to tax the living daylights out of everyone and everything and use that money to buy votes. Yes, that's what food stamps and other forms of welfare are: nothing more than corruption.

      Well, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Sooner or later you'll discover that there's nobody left to pay the taxes and then things will be hard for the freeloaders.
      NY is a beggar. They and their politicians need someone like Amazon to come pay taxes in their state. Amazon is a chooser. They get to decide what is best for their company and their employees-- are high taxes good for them?

      No, high taxes aren't good. It's so obvious that even the NY politicians know it as evidenced by the fact they tried to give Amazon a deal where they wouldn't tax them so much if only Amazon would please please please bring jobs and tax money to their state. So now that the New Yorkers are getting all self righteously greedy about how much tax money they thought they were going to get from Amazon they've reneged on the deal and surprise surprise, Amazon is thinking they don't really want to get shafted. Well gee whiz! Who'd'a thunk it?

      But I have a question for the New Yorkers: what's better? A little extra tax income and a bunch of jobs or no extra tax income and no extra jobs?
      Fools.

      Oh, no wait, I should laugh! I'm not a New Yorker so it's no skin off my back if those imbeciles shoot themselves in their greedy self-righteous foot.
      Hey, Amazon, come to my state instead! I'd love a little extra demand for my labor and I know my fellow citizens would too.

    6. Re: Objecting to the give-away by nomadic · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Amazon needs a large, highly-educated workforce, and I'm not sure the people they need would be willing to move en masse to Amarillo, Texas.

    7. Re:Objecting to the give-away by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yadda yadda yadda, taxes bad. Taxes pay for things like education (NY state has some great schools and colleges), public transportation (I love trains!), and a social safety net. Those things actually make places livable. You know what's bad? Squandering $6 trillion on the Federal level on military homicide sprees and security theater. Wars and nudie scanners don't actually make places more livable.

    8. Re:Objecting to the give-away by alvinrod · · Score: 5, Insightful

      A tax break is not giving them money.
      It's simply refraining from taking it from them.

      Be that as it may, it's still asking other businesses which are being taxed so subsidize Amazon who is getting preferential treatment. I think that high taxes are idiotic and usually counter-productive, but if some city or state wants to enact them, then they should be applied fairly and evenly to all who live and do business there. If those cities or states find that it drives out businesses, then they can vote to reduce the tax rates.

    9. Re:Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      A tax break *to a specific company* is picking a winner, which the government shouldn't be doing. If they cut taxes for *all companies*, that's one thing... that's not what was happening here.

    10. Re:Objecting to the give-away by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Taxes are great when they're used to pay for useful services like education, public transit, infrastructure, and public health care. Taxes suck when they're squandered on security theater, wars on moral panics like drugs, or wars abroad. Yeah, yeah, the latter is Federal, but NY sends much more money to DC than it gets back, so it adds up. Time to REALLY put America first and stop squandering tax money on nonsense.

    11. Re:Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      NYS had a 3.9% unemployment rate which is below structural (ie the minimum possible unemployment rate)

      NYC is probably the most attractive place for a company to set up in the East Coast and has the easiest time attracting young educated people

      It doesn't need to pay Amazon as everyone who wants a job has one and the available workforce is top of the line

      Wisconsin paid 4 billion dollars for 1000 jobs (down from the 13K promised) because no one wants to move there, companies or people

      NYS/NYC does not have that problem

    12. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know of a city or two that would welcome amazon with open arms and a constant stream of tax subsidies. Amarillo, TX for example would definitely not tell them to go away.

      And what makes you think Amazon would go to some godforsaken place in the middle of nowhere ?

    13. Re:Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Written by a red state "wizard" I'm sure.

      NY has no shortage of people wanting to live and work there. Along with many other blue states. Quality of life, quality of education, infrastructure, it's all remarkable compared to the red state shitholes, to use Trump's term.

      Ironically, even Trump likes NY.

    14. Re:Objecting to the give-away by alvinrod · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The people that Amazon employs are likely to earn more than the people they displace, which means the state will collect additional income tax simply due to the higher wages, but also because Amazon workers will fall into a higher tax bracket. Those workers also have more disposable income which means more money being spent into the local economy. If people are being pushed out at a 1:1 ratio with every person Amazon brings in, there's no net change in road utilization (unless Amazon workers are more likely to drive) or other utilization. If it displaces other types of labor, it just means that value of what remains increases due to more limited supply, so it would raise wages for those jobs. There's also plenty of housing available, but some of it needs to be reclaimed but idiotic development laws typically mean that no one wants to spend the time or money dealing with it.

      It may still be that the net effect doesn't result in much additional revenue for the state or city, but I'm not sure if I agree with the reasoning that you've used to arrive at that conclusion.

    15. Re: Objecting to the give-away by jellomizer · · Score: 2

      Well it is the catch 22 of today's economy.
      Small rural towns, would love a big company to come in and bring in jobs. Because the influx of jobs would bring in more higher skilled people who would then require services which brings in more jobs. However these companies will not open in these small rural towns because they don't have the educated workforce, or the infrastructure to deal with the services they will want.

      For the old factory jobs, this was easy for a small town to get a factory, and grow the economy. Because you needed basic labor, and skilled labor only needed a couple of months of training. Now we need people with College Degree and advanced specialized skills. You can open a company in the middle of nowhere, but you will have a hard time attracting people who can do the work, and people will not flock to that location because the small town couldn't support them.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    16. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      There goes the left thinking that people in fly-over country are dumb hicks. What a load of bullshit. You think people in Amarillo are stupid? This is what the left thinks people that don't live in big cities are dumb, low class, uneducated and possibly racists. They think the are so elite and better than everyone else. This is what the left thinks and believes.

    17. Re:Objecting to the give-away by MitchDev · · Score: 1

      Very good point

    18. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      Actually the statistics demonstrate that people with higher educations tend to favor Democratic policies and ideals. That's not "the left" that's a fact. People in Amarillo are less educated per capita than in some other places.

      As far as "what 1/2 of the country" thinks about that, you really don't decide nor does it realistically follow that they'd all feel exactly the same about it. I have several sub-higher-education friends in red states, all reasonably nice folks.

      You, on the other hand, are an example of an uneducated prick railing against reality and crying about the FACT that people in Red States are generally a lesser-educated workforce in general. Coal mines, oil extraction, manufacturing.

      That's not to say those things have no value, but to think they have a value as great as or greater than higher-educated professionals is just to hold your breath and shove your head up your red state blathering asshole.

    19. Re:Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh, yeah. That's why NY leads the country in population loss. https://www.democratandchronic...

      And just last week our illustrious governor, Andy the Asshole, was complaining about a $2.3B loss of tax revenue (just this year) because of people leaving the state. Of course, last month he assured us that the reason people are leaving is not because of obscenely high taxes, or idiotic liberal policies, but simply because of the weather. This week, he managed to blame it on Trump.

      Of course, not everyone wants out. Illegals are perfectly happy moving in. They even get a free college education.

    20. Re:Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Isn't this the same as a business offering a first time customer a discount to win the business? NYC gives them tax brakes for some time, to make it more inviting for them to come, build out a new facility then move/hire employees.

    21. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why do they need to move at all? What ever happened to the whole telecommuting concept?

    22. Re:Objecting to the give-away by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      New Yorkers have already voiced their opposition to 25,000 techbros coming to their city. Misogynists are not welcome in NYC and the people have made their voices clear.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    23. Re: Objecting to the give-away by GameboyRMH · · Score: 1

      Yet another one of capitalism's nasty positive feedback loops - left to its own devices, it would prefer to pack us all into stupidly expensive megacities like bees in a hive so that we can work ourselves most of the way to death for the privilege of living near the high-paying jobs that you need so that you can barely pay for that expensive real estate (further enriching the ownership class in the process)...

      --
      "When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
    24. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Actually the statistics demonstrate that people with higher educations tend to favor Democratic policies and ideals. ....

      In other words, people who grew up sheltered, never had to work for a living, and had mommy and daddy around to pay for college?

      Education != intelligence

      Just look and the current Marxist bae of the left - Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. She's so "educated" that she had to 404 her "New Green Deal" off her web site in less than 24 hours, because it was bog-standard election-losing leftist STUPID drivel like "everyone is entitled to economic security whether they want to work or not."

      AOC is so fucking "educated" with her economics degree paid for by her parents from Boston University that she's TOO FUCKING STUPID to know how unemployment works:

      Ocasio-Cortez said, "Unemployment is low because everyone has two jobs. Unemployment is low because people are working 60, 70, 80 hours a week and can barely feed their family."

      So you wanna spout crap about "education"? That STUPID shit is from someone who graduated summa cum laude with a degree in economics.

      In other words, "education" today is fucking worthless.

      You watch - after dragging Democrats down with her Marxist/Communist/Socialist FWEEEE STUFFFZZ!!!, AOC is gonna get primaried and shitcanned in 2020.

    25. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Actually the statistics demonstrate that people with higher educations tend to favor Democratic policies and ideals. That's not "the left" that's a fact.

      Democratic results by a democratic survey by a democrat college? I'm shocked, shocked I tell you, that they came away with the result they wanted. Search youtube or the internet and you'll find it has been debunked but you wouldn't know that by listening only to foul mouthed democrats.

    26. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So people in Red States are dumb and uneducated. Wow just wow.. This is what the left thinks and believes. You type of people would march us into the gas chambers if it wasn't for our right to bear arms.

    27. Re:Objecting to the give-away by jeff4747 · · Score: 3, Informative

      That's why NY leads the country in population loss.

      New York State is not New York City.

      Upstate NY is doing very poorly, decimated by the same manufacturing sector ills that have hit the rest of the rust belt. It is suffering large-scale population loss, not because of taxes, but because there's zero reason to build a factory there. Why build your factory in a place famous for massive winter snowfall when Alabama exists? Or Juarez? Low taxes do not stop lake effect snow. If anything, low taxes would make lake effect snow worse since they would start to have trouble affording plows.

      New York City is doing quite well, and attracting a lot of people....despite having an even higher tax rate than upstate NY.

    28. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's cute you think anyone cares about your guns. They won't protect you.

    29. Re:Objecting to the give-away by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      our issue upstate isnt any of those things. its the taxes and the fact that our governor panders to some groups and screws over others (example, a bunch of schools put in requests for emergency funding, shockingly the only schools that were denied were the schools in districts that didnt vote cuomo(BR)(BR) our roads are falling apart yet we spend over 10 grand a year in property taxes for small quarter acre lots , have some of the highest fuel taxes. There are jobs, but albany has been screwing NYS while pandering to NYC for way to long.

      apples to apples, im looking to go to north carolina and for the same square footage home on the same size property, in NY- 300 grand and 11 grand in taxes. in NC 150 grand and 1100 in taxes.

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    30. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, you did vote for Trump

    31. Re:Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The blue parts of NYS do well, as do the red parts next to NYC. The other red parts of NYS don't do very well, and those people are leaving for red welfare states where it's easier to be among people that vote against their own interests while leeching off the blue states that pay for everything.

    32. Re:Objecting to the give-away by alvinrod · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I think this just shows the real problem with taxes. Half of the things you think are great, are not good use of tax dollars according to another group of people. Some of what you want to spend more taxes on is going to be considered squandering tax money on nonsense by others. No one has a problem identifying the wastefulness of government spending in the things the consider to be bad, yet seem to believe that such could not happen with those things that they want tax dollars to fun. Once you legitimize government largess, it's no wonder that people will crawl out of the woodwork to direct some of it towards themselves.

      And New York seems to consider it a fine idea to take from those who have most and redistribute to those who have less. They are one of the richer states, so shouldn't they be happy that more federal money is being spent on the states that contribute less? Everyone loves the notion of taking from those who have more, but most don't realize that they're quite far up the ladder themselves and there's a whole wider world that has much, much less.

    33. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Holi · · Score: 1

      Probably more thinking about the fact that Amarillo has about a 200k population with the majority having only a high school education or some college experience. But the vast majority does not have a degree of any sort.

      Not really the place to move your high tech company to when you need a highly educated workforce.

      It's not that we think your dumb, it's just applying even the lightest common sense would have shown you why this was such an idiotic suggestion.

      --
      Sorry, teleporters just kill you and then make a copy. A perfect, soul-less copy.
    34. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is the optimistic possible future.
      There are so many fucking stupid young people out there that she might be Elizabeth Warren's running mate in 2020.

    35. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "It's cute " is how a smarmy millineal motherfucker starts out sentences.

    36. Re:Objecting to the give-away by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      Misogynists are not welcome in NYC

      There is zero evidence that tech workers are more misogynistic. I have worked in several professions, and tech is the least misogynist. Have you ever worked with salesmen, or warehouse workers? They make nerds look like saints.

    37. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tell that to the British. Tell that to the Democrat Slave owners. Tell that to the Nazis.

    38. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's a bit sweeping to assume 25k staff will all be male and negative people. You know there are positive males and you know, females too. Perhaps if we make an assumption (Slashdot style) that people are generally good and that assholes are just the edge cases, 25k new NewYorker workers might be a good thing. They might even bring partners and children and even raise a new generation of future lovely NewYorkers.

      Not everything is end-of-the-world style horrible.

    39. Re:Objecting to the give-away by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      The problem, we haven't legitimized government largesse -- we've legitimized military and law enforcement parasitism. i.e. many Americans are brainwashed to think that using tax money against other people (military homicide sprees, mass incarceration) is better than using it to actually help people and make their lives easier. It's a typical attitude in failing societies.

    40. Re: Objecting to the give-away by magzteel · · Score: 1

      Probably more thinking about the fact that Amarillo has about a 200k population with the majority having only a high school education or some college experience. But the vast majority does not have a degree of any sort.

      Not really the place to move your high tech company to when you need a highly educated workforce.

      It's not that we think your dumb, it's just applying even the lightest common sense would have shown you why this was such an idiotic suggestion.

      Did you ever look at the statistics for New York City?
      According to https://www.towncharts.com/New...
      New York City has 37% of people with a bachelors degree or higher. Is that a "vast majority"?

    41. Re:Objecting to the give-away by jeff4747 · · Score: 2

      If it was taxes, then NYC would be doing worse than upstate, because NYC has higher taxes.

      Pretend I'm looking for a place to build my factory. Manufacturing is more high-tech than it used to be, so I need employees that have at least a good high school education.

      I'm trying to pick between Utica and oh, let's say Huntsville, AL. And let's pretend I've negotiated a sweetheart deal where I pay no state taxes so we take those completely out of the decision.

      Why do I pick Utica for my factory? The weather's worse. The transportation network I need for my supply chain is worse. The nearest airport is an hour away. The schools are worse. The dream of the local high school students is to move as far away as possible, leaving me with the ones that couldn't pull that off. So I need to do more on-the-job-training. The houses are old and not being replaced. The supermarkets are all competing for the cheapest place to use food stamps.

      The gas station in my neighborhood started selling crack pipes at the registers (you had to ask for the stuff to go into the pipes. At least according to the multiple arrests there). The owners of the gas station decided to lose their branding instead of no longer selling crack pipes, so it's no longer a Chevron station. It is considered the nice part of town.

      Taxes are not the problem with upstate NY. Infrastructure and weather are. Infrastructure is not just roads. It's schools and workers too.

    42. Re:Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The taxpayer funded give-away Amazon got is the same give-away offered to EVERY corporation looking to move into New York.

    43. Re:Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The people that Amazon employs are likely to earn more than the people they displace, which means the state will collect additional income tax simply due to the higher wages, but also because Amazon workers will fall into a higher tax bracket. Those workers also have more disposable income which means more money being spent into the local economy.

      the "local economy" includes Connecticut and New Jersey (proof? how many commuters!) and they were never even asked

    44. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      90% of Americans would repeal the 2A if it ever came to a vote.

    45. Re:Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Very little construction is being permitted??? Have you been to LIC Queens. There must be at least 10 residential towers being constructed at this very moment. Each tower is at least 40 floors tall. They are expensive as hell but there is housing available.

    46. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is the optimistic possible future.
      There are so many fucking stupid young people out there that she might be Elizabeth Warren's running mate in 2020.

      Only if the Dems want to repeat 1984, where Ronald Reagan came within a few thousand votes in Mondale's home state of Minnesota from sweeping every single fucking state.

      Pocahontas is Poca-has-been. It just dropped in the last few days that good old Liz Warren did in fact claim to be a Native American in many, many places.

      Funny how "progressives" lecture about "cultural appropriation" when a kid dresses up as a Polynesian girl hero because of a fucking movie, but gives a lily-white "progressive" liar a pass when she fraudulently claims to be Native American for personal gain.

    47. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We should shut down Hollywood and censor the music industry then, because decadent western culture is what motivates the terrorists and leads to the need for airport scanners.

    48. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem with Texas cities like Amarillo is that real estate can be bought in all directions. In more civilized areas like SF and NYC, there is only a certain amount of land until you hit the ocean. This ensures that land used is used wisely and doesn't wind up turning into miles of urban sprawl. Moving to a coastal city only makes sense from an environmental perspective.

      Plus, who wants to live in Texas? There is no public land or parks to speak of, and if you set foot off the road, a landowner will gleefully shoot you dead.

    49. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Not quite right. What it shows is people with *post-graduate* degrees prefer Democrats, but in the aggregate, people with college degrees prefer Republicans.

      So it depends how you parse âoemore educatedâ.

      I helped my uncle Jack off a horse...

    50. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You realize the parties switched at one point in history right?

      Hint thise fighting to keep slavery were not progressives...

    51. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Not based on gun ownership, you can always dream thou.

      Also it would take a ridiculous majority to repeal that amendment so never going to happen.

    52. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Really? I work at a particle physics lab. Iâ(TM)m gonna guess that those red-state farmers will do just fine if we stop shooting neutrinos under their corn fields.

      Iâ(TM)ll also guess we wonâ(TM)t do so good if they cut off our food supply.

    53. Re:Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly.. talk about choosing our headlines. Why is slashdot so damn fascist, tech people supposed to be intelligent.

    54. Re:Objecting to the give-away by AlwinBarni · · Score: 1

      ... then they should be applied fairly and evenly to all who live and do business there ...

      Agree, otherwise small businesses are at a disadvantage, which practically puts them out of business if by chance they are competitors.
      Incentives like city infrastructure or tax brakes proportional to created new jobs for any business - I am okay with, otherwise the same rules for all the players.

    55. Re:Objecting to the give-away by bws111 · · Score: 1

      A person in Utica that makes only $30K will be paying state income tax at a rate of 6.33%. That same income in Huntsville will be paying 5%.

      The person in Utica will be paying property taxes of 2.21%, while the person in Huntsville is paying 0.45%

      Yet you're saying the transportation network, schools, and general infrastructure are worse in Utica. So what are the people in Utica (and upstate as a whole) getting for their ridiculously high taxes?

      It's not just the tax rate, it's that the high taxes are paying for things that people in NYC want the taxes spent on rather than things that benefit the taxpayers in Utica. Keep telling yourself that taxes aren't the problem.

    56. Re:Objecting to the give-away by Scroatzilla · · Score: 1

      In terms of health care, why not just pay doctors directly rather that having the government as a middle man?

    57. Re:Objecting to the give-away by jeff4747 · · Score: 2

      It's not just the tax rate, it's that the high taxes are paying for things that people in NYC want the taxes spent on rather than things that benefit the taxpayers in Utica.

      I'd like you to explain how spending taxes "better" will stop lake effect snow. 'Cause that's part of the problem with the infrastructure.

      Also, the people in Utica weren't asking for "better" spending. They were asking for lower taxes as if that alone would magically create jobs. Heck, it's what the local politicians spent their money on: tax breaks for businesses. Not, say, making SUNY-IT competitive.

    58. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do enlighten us when the parties switched. You mean like how the Democratic Governor of Virginia dressed up like Black Face. Or all the left leaning democratic talk show hosts dress up as black face. Or how Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton Eulogized Robert Byrd and actually stood up for him in being in the KKK. I'm sorry but the hardcore Dixiecrats never left the party. There was no switch.

    59. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      All it would take would be a treaty like the UN Small Arms Treaty to be signed and ratified by the Senate. Marbury vs. Madison does not cover treaties, so SCOTUS would not be able to strike down an international gun ban treaty.

    60. Re: Objecting to the give-away by rogoshen1 · · Score: 0

      More like a repeat of 2016. The dems ran a laughably unelectable candidate, and now we have Trump.

      If they roll the dice again in 2020 the result will be the exact same thing.

    61. Re:Objecting to the give-away by gabebear · · Score: 1

      Uh, yeah. That's why NY leads the country in population loss. https://www.democratandchronic...

      New York City’s population grew 5% between 2010-2018.

      By your linked numbers New York State(not City) lost 0.25% of its population 2017-2018, and has only increase 0.85% since 2010... which more seems like the population is stable in the state rather than falling.

      Suburbia is going to continue to collapse for probably another decade; this will probably be good in the long run for both NYC and NYS.

    62. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem with Texas cities like Amarillo is that real estate can be bought in all directions. In more civilized areas like SF and NYC, there is only a certain amount of land until you hit the ocean. This ensures that land used is used wisely and doesn't wind up turning into miles of urban sprawl. Moving to a coastal city only makes sense from an environmental perspective.

      Plus, who wants to live in Texas? There is no public land or parks to speak of, and if you set foot off the road, a landowner will gleefully shoot you dead.

      As someone who works in tech in Texas (Austin), and who has worked and lived in SF, I think this state has a lot to offer. That said, I don't think it would be a good idea for Amazon to move such a large office to any one city here. The infrastructure isn't designed to support that much of an influx of population (not to mention the lack of public transportation) and it would be difficult to attract an educated workforce of that size in a short enough amount of time to make it worthwhile and effective from a cost perspective. Apple and Amazon both already have a large tech workforce in Austin (along with Google, FB, and several other companies) that they've grown over the years and who soak up as many techies that decide to work here and I can't imagine what 25,000 additional tech workers would do to this city or anywhere else in Texas. If Amazon decides to pull up stakes in NY then I'd imagine they would likely look at somewhere like Chicago or maybe a different strategy altogether where they break that group into smaller satellite offices.

    63. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LOL. You are an idiot.

    64. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Citation needed.

    65. Re:Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It also means that NY will have to build and maintain all the infrastructure that would be needed to support 25,000 new jobs in a very concentrated area.... more cops, transit, facilities, roads, ... just name it.... all that isn't free, the corp taxes would help pay for that, but now the NY taxpayers would foot that ongoing bill as well.

    66. Re: Objecting to the give-away by jeff4747 · · Score: 2

      This is false. Treaties can not override the Constitution. They can only override laws (by effectively being a law).

    67. Re:Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      First principles - what is the proper role of government? Big clue - look at its name. Its role is to govern - to set the rules we all live by and enforce the rules. Now, go live your life by the rules. The rest is up to you.

    68. Re:Objecting to the give-away by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 0, Troll

      James Damore. Gamergate. That scientist who wore the misogynist shirt. We've plenty of examples and denying it is pointless. New York rejected them. Deal with it.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    69. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      She will only be 32 in 2020 and 33 in 2021 at the start of the next presidential term, so she's too young to be VP.

    70. Re:Objecting to the give-away by Dragonslicer · · Score: 1

      Are you suggesting that there are fewer than three misogynists total in all sales departments or warehouses? The point wasn't that no tech workers are misogynistic (good luck finding zero anything in any large group of people), only that a smaller percentage of them are.

    71. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not unless Trump somehow manages to avoid prison, which is, let's face it, not fucking likely at all.

    72. Re:Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      lolwut? citation needed on "plenty of housing available" - if that were true, housing prices would be declining in NYC. as the article said there are many reasons to own real estate in NYC that don't involve living in it year-round. those houses are not available to anyone. the "zombie houses" issue should be solved whether or not amazon comes and whether amazon comes or not it will probably not be solved.

      the Amazon plan was engineered to be an end run around laws prohibiting these tax giveways and it was done in secret, those are reasons not to do it. it also would set a terrible precedent for other companies.

      NYC absolutely needs the money. have you been there? billions of dollars are a lot of money for the nation to give away. for a city to give it away is criminal.

      not sure what you mean by "displacing" people, that is exactly the problem. the people living in NYC are not rodents, they don't get "displaced" but their lives get shittier when the city does stuff like this.

    73. Re: Objecting to the give-away by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      What a bunch of closed minded bigots.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    74. Re:Objecting to the give-away by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 0

      You're punching down. You never punch down. Deal with your misogyny problems first, then you can go about speaking truth to the powerless.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    75. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      More like a repeat of 2016. The dems ran a laughably unelectable candidate, and now we have Trump.

      If they roll the dice again in 2020 the result will be the exact same thing.

      Warren is much more laughably unelectable than Hillary.

      Warren is no more likable than Hillary, doesn't have Bill to buoy her up like Hillary does, and then Warren has her Fauxcahontas issues.

      Trump's dog would beat Warren.

    76. Re: Objecting to the give-away by gorehog · · Score: 1

      In other words, people who grew up sheltered, never had to work for a living, and had mommy and daddy around to pay for college?

      You're thinking of richpublicans.

    77. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "This is what the left thinks and believes."

      Well... yeah, but only because we see the racist bigotry of the uneducated rightists eager to take a knee before their dear leader Donald and suck down whatever he puts down their throats. Of course, on the left, we've learned how to recognize facts, which does bias our thinking towards the truth, and away from conservative dumb fuckery. So there's that.

    78. Re: Objecting to the give-away by blindseer · · Score: 1

      90% of Americans would repeal the 2A if it ever came to a vote.

      Then bring it to a vote. It shouldn't be all that hard with such support.

      Here's the problem, gun laws are largely unenforceable. There is no firearm registry, and there never will be. Canada tried it and they had maybe a 30% compliance rate. A group of people that opposed it had a "swap meet" where they had swapped firearms so that any existing database was useless in telling who had what. "But that's breaking the law!!!" Yes, it was a mass of people breaking the law, what are you going to do about it?

      Such registries, confiscations, and bans, have been tried all over the world. This includes a number of states in the USA. I recall reading how Missouri repealed their gun registry because the sheriffs were not complying. Many didn't even know it was a law, sheriffs and citizens. Kind of hard to have any gun control if law enforcement can't be bothered to even look up the law. They got better things to do than keep records on law abiding gun owners.

      Oh, and South Dakota just passed "constitutional carry" into law and Oklahoma is considering it now. Vermont never had any restriction on the carry of concealed sidearms. That doesn't sound like a 90% support of the repeal of the Second Amendment to me. There's at least 12 states with such laws now, and many more with no prohibitions on the open carry of sidearms.

      There is no wide support for gun control in the USA. Even if there were then you'd still have to convince law enforcement to bother with harassing law abiding citizens on the keeping and carrying of sidearms when they have to worry about actual criminals preying on these same law abiding citizens.

      New York wants to drive out Amazon and all the jobs they'd bring? Fine, let the jobs land in places where people are free to defend themselves against crime. Places like Virginia where crime seems to miraculously stop at the border with nearby DC. DC has crime far higher than Virginia, and they have far more restrictions on sidearm ownership. If the criminals in DC are going to VA to buy the guns and then crossing back to commit their violence then all that does is prove DC gun laws unenforceable. If DC wants these laws then let them enforce them. If they can't enforce them then maybe the people there need to leave for their own safety.

      --
      I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
    79. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really? Even 37% of the population of New York City dwarfs the entire population of Amarillo.

      Source: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=population+new+york+city

    80. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank god we live in a Republic and not a Democracy. Did you even pass a basic civics class in school or are you from Armadillo?

    81. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Frankly, I saw the same thing from the other side during previous regime.

    82. Re: Objecting to the give-away by blindseer · · Score: 1

      You realize the parties switched at one point in history right?

      Sure, then they switched back again. Funny how that works.

      --
      I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
    83. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We have been there before. Most people are not able to pay for any significant medical tratment at any single point in their lives. This is precisely how the world operated for almost all of humanity's existance. We know the results, and I do not think that many rational people would like to go back there.

    84. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Correct. You won't find that in Amarillo. In Austin, yes, but now you're competing with several other hundred tech companies for talent.

      However, in southern New Hampshire... in the Manchester area or south of that even, you have a very healthy brain bucket available within 60 mile radius in every direction.

      If you keep it out of Mass. and its taxes, Amazon could make that work to their advantage. This isn't a sorting facility, which already exists in New England. This is HQ2, and Amazon REALLY needs to do something to improve their image here, above beyond your standard behemoth looking for political handouts.

    85. Re: Objecting to the give-away by blindseer · · Score: 1

      What does Amazon do that requires so many people with a college degree? As a contractor I've done a lot of jobs that, on paper at least, "require" a college degree. As I get into many of these jobs I realize that most of what I do is something someone with a high school education and a bit of on the job experience could do. What college has become is a means to teach people what they should have learned in high school, and/or filter out for intelligence like a high school education would have.

      This "leave no child behind" crap has meant that a high school diploma means next to nothing. Statistics on intelligence tells us that those one standard deviation below average intelligence (average being an IQ of 100 by definition) have about a 50/50 chance of graduating high school. That's about 15% of the population, again by definition of a standard deviation. This means that if we had held the standard of a high school education the same then we'd have about a 10% dropout rate. That was deemed "unacceptable" by the powers that be. So, they lowered the standards for a diploma until it became "acceptable". This means people with an IQ below 85, that's one standard deviation below 100, graduate even though their ability to on the "three Rs" are at about what a 9th or 8th grade level education used to be.

      College graduates will have an average IQ of about 105, because colleges have been able to keep their standards up for a bit longer. If we keep driving people into college when they don't need it and/or can't meet the traditional standards of a degree, then we will see the value of college be diluted to nothing like a high school education has.

      There's nothing wrong with having only a 9th grade education, my dad and his brothers had only that much education and they went into farming, the military, and business. They all retired as millionaires, which used to mean far more than it used to but inflation means that's not a high bar any more.

      Small towns are still good places to find workers. These tend to be filled with skilled labor from farming and light industry. These small communities tend to be free from the politics of "leave no child behind" nonsense that made a high school education nothing more than a certificate of having been babysat until they got to be 18 years old. Those without a high school education will still find work as skilled labor where a good work ethic and a good attitude means more than having read Shakespeare in college. Those with a proper high school education should be able to fill most any job Amazon would offer.

      --
      I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
    86. Re: Objecting to the give-away by r1348 · · Score: 1

      Stop eating crayons.

    87. Re:Objecting to the give-away by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Gamergate.

      So Amazon engineers are misogynist because some gamers once were?

      Since when does playing games make you "tech"?

    88. Re:Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, when can we expect those changes? When are you running for president or congressman and who will you get your money from and what will you have to do for it?

      I thought so. Blah blah blah... Empty talk is cheap.

    89. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They can change the damn channel, they don't have to watch it. But they are terrerrists so by definition idiots.

    90. Re:Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "...a place famous for massive winter snowfall when Alabama exists?"

      Mmm. Difficult decision.

    91. Re: Objecting to the give-away by sp0tter · · Score: 1

      Technically no but while we are sparing with strawmen you may wish to note %37 is higher than the national average https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      --
      you don't eat crackers in the bed of your future--or else you'll get all scratchy
    92. Re:Objecting to the give-away by sp0tter · · Score: 1

      maybe because I don't have $100k sitting around in case I suffer a heart attack?

      --
      you don't eat crackers in the bed of your future--or else you'll get all scratchy
    93. Re:Objecting to the give-away by sp0tter · · Score: 1

      The people that Amazon employs are likely to earn more than the people they displace,

      can you support that claim? This is NYC not Fife, AL

      --
      you don't eat crackers in the bed of your future--or else you'll get all scratchy
    94. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There goes the left thinking that people in fly-over country are dumb hicks.

      Not all of them, probably only 45 or 50 percent are dumb hicks. I've been there and in this case the stereotype has a solid foundation.

      Just drive around some of the cities and towns in fly-over country and look at the residents- a shitload of them are dumber than a bag of hammers. These people are the reason there's a warning label on a toaster that tells you not to use it in the shower. They're the reason that microwave ovens have interlocks. They directly responsible for the invention of the airbag and the federal requirement for GFCI outlets in the bathroom. And yet they can vote. SMH

    95. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That thinking got your jobs outsourced to India dumbass. LOL

    96. Re:Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why NYS's taxes are higher than Alabama's:

      1. Because of unions, many things, like construction and government, are much more expensive in New York.

      2. Some of New York's benefits, like welfare, are better than in Alabama.

    97. Re:Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're paying 10k property taxes for quarter acre lots in NY you either live near NYC or are doing it way wrong. That almost sounds like Newburgh, Poughkeepsie or Kingston... none of which are a good place to live. You're also talking about a state of which 75% of it is straight up just forest, stop choosing to live on top of other people.

      We're 2 hours out from NYC, 40 minutes from Albany paying about 2k property (2.5k school) for a hell of a lot more than a quarter acre.

      Stop picking stupid places to live. As someone who worked in Newburgh and lived all over the hudson valley, theres plenty of places that are reasonably priced. Plenty of houses for sale/rent in the woods with decent schools at affordable prices.

    98. Re:Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah...I got taxed $700 for NOT having healthcare....YAY TAXES. If only I was eligibe for exemptions like domestic abuse, losing my house, or the best exemption... "Unauthorized access in US".

      NY Trains are privately owned by the MTA, which is why train tickets are expensive for a shit service, NYC schools are closing a a big rate, and this Social saftey net? Social Security that will be dried up before most of reach that age.

    99. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      only the left spews hate like that nothing has changed in that party in over 200 years. slavery, systematic removal of native americans, KKK, Jim crow. yes the Democrats are that party and still are.

    100. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      then fucking by insurance. you know the "in case" part. god leftists are dumb as fuck.

    101. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      AOC doesn't have to be worried about finding a place to stay because its looking she has free rent in your head.

      And you rail about Socialism...? Free Rent, dude.

    102. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Cederic · · Score: 1

      Amazon is a technology company that creates new technologies, masters the use of existing ones and does some bloody interesting things with data.

      People with the ability to do those things tend to go to college.

    103. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really? Sure sounds like you're the small minded bigot who is "punching down".

    104. Re: Objecting to the give-away by blindseer · · Score: 1

      Amazon is a technology company that creates new technologies, masters the use of existing ones and does some bloody interesting things with data.

      People with the ability to do those things tend to go to college.

      Assuming that a college degree is actually required then you can find those people in small towns too. You think small towns are just full of uneducated hicks? Lot's of people go to college and end up in small towns. Even if it's not the people there currently there's the children that would love to find a good job near family. It's also not like people can't commute from a nearby larger town, or move there for the job.

      A dollar goes a lot further in a small town. Amazon could attract smart people that can figure that out.

      --
      I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
    105. Re: Objecting to the give-away by Cederic · · Score: 1

      I was responding to the challenge that recruiting people with a college degree was necessary. It is, because there's only a tiny overlap between the desired recruitment pool and people with no degree.

      None of that comments on small towns but since you've raised it, yes, you can find intelligent people with and without college degrees in small towns.

      But take Amarillo. That's a large town of 200,000 people. Only 47% of the population in the US actually work, so that's a labour pool in Amarillo of around 94000 people.

      Only around 2.6% of the people working in the US work in IT. So the pool of people in Amarillo with the desire, aptitude and capability of working in IT (and that inexplicably didn't move somewhere that could offer them such a job) is nearer 2500 people.

      However, Amazon doesn't want generic IT workers. They outsource those jobs, and want to employ top-end workers. Lets assume they drop standards and accept employees at the 90th percentile.

      So basically Amazon could employ every single viable candidate in Amarillo and still only have 250 people. That hasn't taken into account other jobs those people have, whether they'd want to work for Amazon, whether Amazon can even make them aware of the opportunity, whether Amazon can accurately identify which 250 people they are and whether there are other factors that might prevent Amazon from employing them.

      Note that I haven't even discussed college degrees here. I'll bet 240 of those 250 have college degrees.

      you can find those people in small towns too

      No, you can't, if you're trying to build a global company headquarters to run a multi-national that relies on technology and its technology advantages over its competitors. There just aren't enough of them to meet your needs.

    106. Re:Objecting to the give-away by Can'tNot · · Score: 1

      And New York seems to consider it a fine idea to take from those who have most and redistribute to those who have less.

      Your claim is not supported by the facts at hand, these protests were provoked by New York taking money from those who have less and giving it to those who have more.

      Also, what does this: "so shouldn't they be happy that more federal money is being spent on the states that contribute less?" have to do with anything? You're wondering off into your own world, with unrelated tangents and baseless assumptions.

    107. Re:Objecting to the give-away by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      heh you know my home county well (orange)

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
  2. Let it be by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 2

    Good. Quit blowing politicians who need your jobs but ride to power trumpeting how evil you are.

    Let the voters weigh the relative importance. That's why the pols are huffing and puffing in the first place.

    --
    (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    1. Re:Let it be by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LOL

      Are you suggesting that only Amazon and Jeff Bezos in his infinite wisdom could bring these jobs to NYC?

      How about the fact that working for Amazon sucks.

      It sucks as a blue-collar worker, and it sucks as a professional too: https://www.glassdoor.com/Revi... (a rating of 3.8 out of 5 for the largest company is not "great" by any stretch)

    2. Re:Let it be by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 1

      Let the voters weigh the relative importance.

      That's why Amazon required a non-disclosure agreement - they knew most voters would balk at the massive scale of the give-away the company was looking for.

      --
      #DeleteChrome
  3. GTFO of Virginia, too. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Crystal City is the absolute worst place to put Amazon. Commuting there by any means is already a disaster.

    1. Re:GTFO of Virginia, too. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Metro goes to Crystal City by train and by bus. What are you complaining about? Cars are arcane and obsolete.

    2. Re:GTFO of Virginia, too. by jeff4747 · · Score: 1

      AWS is making heavy plays into government contracts. You have to be in the DC area for that, so there's no way they're leaving Crystal City.

    3. Re:GTFO of Virginia, too. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      VRE is standing-room-only. Metro bus will sit in the same gridlock as all the cars. Metro rail is almost at capacity already and will never handle the load.

      And don't think that employees can just live nearby. As a junior programmer, 20 years ago, I could only qualify for an efficiency apartment (ONE room) if I had a roommate. That's like living in a college dorm, as a working professional. No thanks. With Amazon in town, that one room apartment will cost so much it'll take 4 roommates.

      Anyways, I would never work for Amazon and I would never work in Crystal City again. So it doesn't matter. It's just a stupid decision.

    4. Re:GTFO of Virginia, too. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Commuting there by any means is already a disaster.

      Maybe so, but the VA government would gladly lube up I-66 to bring in more Amazon jobs.

    5. Re: GTFO of Virginia, too. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "We don't allow cars in our beehive!'

    6. Re:GTFO of Virginia, too. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was personally surprised they didn't pick Reston. Metro is there now. It's closer to some other big corporations. Crystal City might currently have some cheap business real estate since the military left, but that's about it. Dulles is a bigger airport as well. I suppose the view is nicer in Crystal City.

    7. Re:GTFO of Virginia, too. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I came to the same conclusion and if the homes were affordable before the announcement that all but vanished.

      The mere fact that even if they choose a reasonable city doesn't matter when employees are allowed to speculate on the real-estate market in the area of new development.

    8. Re:GTFO of Virginia, too. by Miamicanes · · Score: 1

      > I was personally surprised they didn't pick Reston

      I'm going to guess "Acela" is the reason. Acela's current route (and the NEC) ends at Union Station... but AFAIK, Virginia is about to electrify the CSX tracks from Union Station south to Richmond (and effectively extend the NEC further south, eventually all the way from Richmond to Atlanta). Those tracks pass through Potomac Yards. Likewise, Long Island City is along the same tracks as Sunnyside Yards, and the route Acela follows to reach Boston.

      Fast forward 10 years. Amazon buys a building within a block or two of the Acela station in Philadelphia, outfits it with conference rooms, and convinces Amtrak to extend the NY-DC Acela route (by paying to build the two new stations, and guaranteeing Amtrak some minimum amount of annual ticket purchases) so the NY-DC trains begin their run at a new station in Long Island City before stopping at Penn Station for ~15 minutes (not necessarily saving a lot of TIME for Amazon employees, but enormously more convenient), then continuing onward to DC. At the DC end, they stop long enough for DC passengers to disembark at Union Station, then continue south to a new station in Arlington (requires replacement of the Long Bridge to add capacity). Northbound, they do the same thing... start in Arlington & spend 15 minutes at Union Station (not saving time, but offering one-train convenience), then continue to New York and ending at LIC. When New York and DC Amazon employees need to have a face to face meeting, they book a conference room in Philadelphia, print their tickets, and now have a convenient central meeting spot halfway between their DC and NY offices.

      As a practical matter, Acela trains terminating or starting at Penn Station sit at Sunnyside Yard ANYWAY until shortly before they're scheduled to arrive at Penn Station. I'm not sure how pressed Union Station is for idle-train storage space, but in any case, if the tracks were electrified all the way down to Potomac Yards, a final hop to Arlington from Union Station wouldn't be much of a problem for Amtrak... it wouldn't increase the total NY-DC travel time, and would almost certainly make it easier for Amtrak to sell more seats on its DC-NY Acela route.

      The only real issue would be for Amtrak to decide whether it wanted to have Boston-NY-DC trains stop at LIC. As I understand it, Boston-NY Acela trains all continue onward to DC, but during most of the day, Amtrak runs additional NY-DC Acela trains in between the Boston-NY-DC trains (because more people travel between NY and DC than travel between Boston and NY, and Amtrak's capacity through Connecticut is constrained, so if ALL trains had to run end to end, it would just limit the total number of trains Amtrak could run between NY and DC).

    9. Re:GTFO of Virginia, too. by ayesnymous · · Score: 1

      Looks like you'll have twice as many people coming to Virginia now.

  4. Good Thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    NY has 2.3 *B*illion budget shortfall. I wouldn't be surprised if that has something to do with the pushback.

    1. Re:Good Thing by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 2, Interesting

      2.3 billion looks big and scary until you realize that NY State's total population is 20 million. That's about $115 per person. Total state budget is $168 billion, so that's about 1.3% of total budget.

      The real problem downstate is that Albany controls NYC's purse strings. The subways would run much better if they were run by the NYC Department of Transportation directly, not subject to authority of clueless bureaucrats from Albany.

    2. Re:Good Thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Holy crap. Your clarifications make it plain that the giveaway is HUGE. 114 bucks from every man, woman and child in the state is a massively ridiculous giveaway to a single office site for only one company. Robber baron and counterfeiter.

      Also, any NDA requirement for public expenditures should be rejected outright and investigated by state and federal prosecutors. It's so antithetical to responsible governance of the community that it's like selling heroin to children. Outrageous.

    3. Re:Good Thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      $115/person?

      Why should every person in NY State pay Amazon $115 to have one of three headquarters in Queens?

      It's not like Amazon needs the money. Heck, Bezos is one of the richest men in the world!

      And I already help make Amazon profitable. Would they like to pay me $115?

  5. Ha Ha socialists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ha Ha look at those socialists pushing out industry that creates jobs.

    1. Re:Ha Ha socialists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Job creators! Won't somebody think of the job creators!?!

      Quick, give them another tax cut, waive all of their property taxes, and hand them as much public cash as we can! The trickle down will make us the envy of the country!!

    2. Re:Ha Ha socialists by hey! · · Score: 1

      Jobs created with, wait for it -- state funded incentives!

      It reminds me of what my old bolshie Uncle Ivan used to say back in the 60s: "Kid, nobody believes in a socialism. Nobody believes in capitalism either. It's always 'socialism for me, capitalism for you!'"

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    3. Re:Ha Ha socialists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nobody is giving them cash. They get a tax incentive for moving in. Which then provides jobs for thousands of workers who in turn pay taxes.

  6. Lex Luthor looks elsewhere. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

    Meanwhile, at the Legion Of Doom....

    Lex Luthor (he also sometimes goes by Jeff Bezos) is a sly one, and has learned to play one city against another. Oh you don't like my evil plan to funnel tax dollars into my billion dollar business? I'll find someone who will.

  7. Money by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

    Any city that offers tax cuts to a large corporation and than hosts that corporation should at least get money out of the deal for a top-notch and modern transit system.

    --
    Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    1. Re:Money by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      The NY subway isn't getting entirely rebuilt (it's built under too much expensive real states), but a few tens of billions for upgrading the electrical systems, signalling systems, and completing the 2nd ave line from 125th St to Canal St would definitely help.

    2. Re:Money by Micah+NC · · Score: 1

      If there are more jobs, doesn't that mean more people are paying taxes?

      If more people are paying income taxes ... doesn't that mean the government has more money (to create transit systems or whatever)?

      In the US retailers generally let people pay small sums on credit cards because they are encouraging more people to come to their store. This seems to be working. Couldn't government get some mileage out of the same strategy? Deferred collection, etc?

    3. Re:Money by wyattstorch516 · · Score: 1

      It may not mean more net jobs. It may mean that these jobs replace other jobs at companies that pay their share of taxes. If that is the cast then the government ends up with less money for infrastructure, education, etc.

    4. Re:Money by GungaDan · · Score: 1

      What does the 2nd Ave line have to do with a theoretical Amazon entity in Long Island City? Is that to help the maybe one or two people who might commute from the lower East side to LIC for work?

      --
      Eloi are stupid, throw morlocks at them!
    5. Re:Money by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      If Amazon wants a deal with NYC, they should get to help the whole city, not just projects that benefit them. Milk them for all they're worth, pretend you're Bezos' mistress and the Enquirer photographer is watching...

    6. Re:Money by hey! · · Score: 1

      Why, to transport Amazon nabobs from their pied-à-terres on in the East Village, of course!

      $2500/month will get you a 1 bedroom apartment with kitchenette, plus access to hip neighborhood businesses catering to bohemian 1990s New Yorkers. It's almost as if EPCOT opened a New York pavilion.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    7. Re:Money by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Not if you have thrown away all those tax breaks in benefits to Amazon. Also how many local people will really be employed?

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
  8. Techies will follow the jobs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Amazon would be wise to locate in a far less expensive and more comfortable location with milder winters and less traffic. It could build a vast campus including housing for less than an NYC HQ.

    1. Re:Techies will follow the jobs. by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Sounds like a company town. Will it come with "jumper nets" for overworked employees, like Foxconn's factories in China do?

      And, BTW, "techies" tend to like to live around other smart people, not in a company campus surrounded by frack fields and coal-rollin' pickups.

    2. Re:Techies will follow the jobs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And, BTW, "techies" tend to like to live around other smart people

      No, "techies" like to live around other people who also pretend their smart, while insisting everyone should live in Googleville, Silicon Valley.

    3. Re:Techies will follow the jobs. by TheCastro1689 · · Score: 1

      Techies tend to live where the jobs are, not where they want to. So many techies like to live rural when they can remote in for their jobs.

    4. Re:Techies will follow the jobs. by couchslug · · Score: 1

      Amazon is so large they'd be surrounded by other smart people anyway. Techies tolerate living in campers to get jobs. They tolerate long commutes in horrific traffic to get jobs. They tolerate never being able to afford a home to get jobs. They tolerate having low disposable incomes to get jobs.

      If you are rich enough to be picky by all means do so, but never confuse yourself with anyone else.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    5. Re:Techies will follow the jobs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's so true.

    6. Re:Techies will follow the jobs. by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      None of those things are done "to get jobs." Those things are done to get jobs in an area where it's actually interesting and pleasant to live -- i.e. be around other interesting humans.

    7. Re:Techies will follow the jobs. by jeff4747 · · Score: 2

      Techies will follow the jobs.

      Only to a limited extent.

      I lived in upstate NY for a while. The area was a former manufacturing center that has been economically destroyed by the same things that hit the rest of the rust belt. The local politicians were sure the techies would follow the jobs, so they had several programs to try and recruit companies to the area. And hey, housing is really cheap so cost-of-living is low. So clearly techies would flock to the area.

      It failed. The area is just too shitty now. The schools are awful, the roads are barely maintained, there's little to do outside your own house, drug use and it's accompanying problems are rampant and overall quality of life is bad. Recruiting and maintaining a high-tech workforce there is very difficult, even with NY city pay scales and rural cost-of-living.

    8. Re: Techies will follow the jobs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course they're smart! Look! They have the latest iPhone!

    9. Re:Techies will follow the jobs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      San Francisco is "pleasant to live" in? The needle covered, druggie overrun, shit-covered, crazy-infested streets are "actually interesting"? The populace that hates you and vandalizes your stuff for being a tech worker are "interesting humans"?

    10. Re:Techies will follow the jobs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Techies will follow the jobs.

      Only to a limited extent.

      I lived in upstate NY for a while. The area was a former manufacturing center that has been economically destroyed by the same things that hit the rest of the rust belt. The local politicians were sure the techies would follow the jobs, so they had several programs to try and recruit companies to the area. And hey, housing is really cheap so cost-of-living is low. So clearly techies would flock to the area.

      It failed. The area is just too shitty now. The schools are awful, the roads are barely maintained, there's little to do outside your own house, drug use and it's accompanying problems are rampant and overall quality of life is bad. Recruiting and maintaining a high-tech workforce there is very difficult, even with NY city pay scales and rural cost-of-living.

      I grew up in upstate NY, in an ordinary house in an ordinary neighbourhood. The schools were fantastic, and it was a great place to grow up. The Adirondack State Park is enormous, with the largest trail system in the USA, and abundant water. The swimming season was short but there were lots of great pools (and we biked to the pool almost every day in the summer - something I've never been able to do since). We did canoe trips every year in the boy scouts, and lots of camping and mountain climbing. Winter sports are easily accessible as well.

      The only downside was the length of the winter. It's not as big of a problem when you're a kid and are used to it, but it makes it hard for people from places with softer weather to move there.

      There were a bunch of engineers living in my neighbourhood - and they were never out of work - so there were definitely high tech jobs (both private and government).

      Learning to drive up there, I didn't have any complaints about the quality of the roads - black ice and freezing rain could be problems, but the roads themselves were better then most places I've lived. They were vastly superior to the roads in Pennsylvania just next door.

      I've been back many times. It hasn't changed much.

      There are many bad places to live in ANY state, you just had the misfortune to end up in one. It may have been your own fault. In the USA, the property tax system was organized after the Civil War (in both North and South) to ensure that wealthy areas got to keep their money local - and minorities got shafted. It hasn't changed much since then, to my disgust and America's shame: read the Walsch book on Racial Taxation for more background on this issue.

      Education, roads, police, fire, good government - these all depend to a large extent on the funds available, so middle class and wealthy areas get great benefits, while the poor get the short end of the stick (and a lot of the poor are minorities). Poor areas can't raise as much money for schools (per student) even if they have much higher property tax rates, which makes these taxes especially regressive: this has been shown over and over.

      Systematically screw people over, and they'll have a strong incentive to turn to high risk, high reward crime. Property tax based funding for education is a big part of the reason why the war on drugs has been a dismal failure, why US students score so poorly (on average) in comparison to their overseas counter-parts, and why the USA has the highest incarceration rate in the world (with disproportionate representation of minorities).

      Smart people pay attention to property taxes when they choose where to live, because it tells them where the good schools and the low crime areas area.

      It would be better to get rid of the property tax system entirely. It's never been fair, it discriminates against minorities, it's expensive to administer, and the administrative expense is completely unnecessary when we already have an administration for income tax - and income tax (unlike property tax) can be made highly progressive. Further, there have always been problems with definin

  9. They should just change their name by bobstreo · · Score: 2

    to Omni Consumer Products and move to Detroit. /s

  10. Unionized Workers - reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Everyone involved (NY) wants to have more money to poor into there never-ending gravy train. The commission in NY told the Amazon managers that they cannot be anti-union, they had to allow unionization if the workers voted for it. Amazon knows this adds an exhorbanent amount of cost to there facility, with the current cost of living. So Bezos can want to be a grand employer in the liberal bastion of the Eastern seaboard, but he is not going to sacrifice profit, substantial profit, for it. Now playing the re-location game to get the NY commission to play ball is in the negotiators manual. Now moving to NY is dumb for a bunch of business reasons and TN would make more financial sense, but Bezos is virtual signaling to the progressive left so they will probably still move to NY and once they break ground and have them committed the avalanche of taxes can start.

    1. Re:Unionized Workers - reason by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      They're hiring developers and business types in NY -- seems like a pretty good place to move to. TN has cheap land, it's a good place for a warehouse, but it lacks many of the aspects that attract techies to NY.

    2. Re:Unionized Workers - reason by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      TN has cheap land, it's a good place for a warehouse, but it lacks many of the aspects that attract techies to NY.

      That depends on where in TN you are. If you're near Nashville, then it's got much of the same stuff; food, culture, relatively liberal politics. Neither one has reasonable cannabis laws, though. (Neither does California any more, oddly, but at least they are less unreasonable.)

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:Unionized Workers - reason by Killall+-9+Bash · · Score: 1

      Money attracts people to NYC. NOTHING ELSE. The people are terrible, the traffic is terrible, the culture is obnoxious, the pizza is the worst in the US, and everything is dirty. If Amazon built their HQ in the middle of the desert, but offered NYC wages, a city would sprout from the dry earth around them.

      --
      "Prediction: within 10 years, Windows will be a Linux distribution." Me, 7-6-2016
    4. Re:Unionized Workers - reason by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      Higher education system: many good universities within a few miles of each other. CUNY/Columbia/NYU/Pratt/Hunter/Cooper/CUNY Grad Center/Rockefeller. Public transport system is awesome; I love trains and not having to drive a stinking car daily is awesome. The people are awesome, BTW, once you stop hanging with rich suburban transplants.

    5. Re:Unionized Workers - reason by b0s0z0ku · · Score: 1

      California is probably as good as it gets in the US, since they allow home-grow for personal use. NYC's laws aren't reasonable, but there's progress towards reform and (frankly) weed is extremely available.

      Nashville doesn't have: functional public transport, the same concentration of world-class research universities (other than Vanderbilt, what is there?), the same cultural diversity, easy access to beaches, etc.

    6. Re:Unionized Workers - reason by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      California is probably as good as it gets in the US, since they allow home-grow for personal use.

      California left it up to the counties, most of which have fucked it up completely. They want licensing and registration, there's all kinds of places you can't have it at all, you can only use it in a private residence in almost every county...

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    7. Re:Unionized Workers - reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nope. It's obvious you are a troll, but you share something that is truthy sounding but a terrible mental failure.

      It can't be more clear that Amazon feeds from the populace and is working to make sure the populace feeds from Amazon as little as possible. This instigation of a bidding war is Amazon making my assertions PROVEN BEYOND ANY DOUBT. The NDA just to make anyone who lies otherwise appear even more stupid.

      Amazon only kept going to profit status because it was working to become big. Amazon being big isn't some tape measure and waistline measurement but rather an access to the populace measurement. Amazon REQUIRES access to large numbers of people in order to survive. Amazon DESPERATELY NEEDS access to the country's primary financial centers and the federal lawmakers as well. Gee. Wonder where they might get both of those things.

      Amazon hasn't created anything. Everything Amazon does has already been done by others. They just do it big. In fact to gain the ability to steam roll both competition and government. That's why they remained funded for the long time that they were not profitable. It's classic anti competitive, anti capitalist(the real thing) robber baron strategy.

      Amazon in the desert would just be a useless money dump. That's WHY they aren't just building a center in Texas.

  11. How big is the AMI Hq? by Blinkin1200 · · Score: 1

    Jeff can probably pick it up for a song after he destroys the company and the management goes to prison.

  12. Yes, a tax break is a net gain for them. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Stop lying Corporatist faggots. Their tax burden under the law decreases by an action = the net loss of a liability = the net gain of shedding it. Go fuck yourself through your first economics semester please moron.

    The Trump tax cuts were shown to have gone right into the pockets of investors and owners, and had no real effect on the economic hiring or growth. You are a lying faggot apologist, nothing more.

  13. Moving from Seattle to New York is Pointless by SmaryJerry · · Score: 1

    Politically the two areas are very closely related and neither are good for Amazon. No where can be as bad as Seattle is for corporations who tried to basically pass an "Amazon tax" which basically just targeted Amazon/Amazon employees. Luckily that got repealed as soon as they found out Amazon had decided to cancel it's construction of new buildings in Seattle and also was searching for two new HQ locations. New York may not be as socialist as Seattle's city council but it's still not as corporation friendly as many other cities.

    1. Re:Moving from Seattle to New York is Pointless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      New York may not be as socialist as Seattle's city council but it's still not as corporation friendly as many other cities.

      What an idiot, NYC is and always has been capitalist Mecca. Check out the rents in NYC and tell me that it has "socialists". My god what an idiot you are.

    2. Re:Moving from Seattle to New York is Pointless by SmaryJerry · · Score: 1

      Something wrong with you. What does rent price have to do with socialism?

    3. Re:Moving from Seattle to New York is Pointless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You responded to yourself. wtf...

    4. Re:Moving from Seattle to New York is Pointless by sp0tter · · Score: 1

      it was repealed when Amazon's bought-and-paid-for politician (Mayor Jenny Durkan) got her orders. Don't be fooled for a second they will never leave Seattle.

      --
      you don't eat crackers in the bed of your future--or else you'll get all scratchy
  14. And people wonder why jobs are moving overseas by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Starting/maintain/expanding a business is becoming increasingly difficult in much of the developed world. I remember reading an article a while back about a farm wanting to start a small, simple local market for their produce. By the time they would have met all of the requirements by paving the parking lot, created a septic system, installed the handicap ramps, rezoned the property commercial, applying for for the IRS designations, etc the whole farming operation would have had to file for bankruptcy. There was an attempt to build a wind farm in my local area, by the time the various NIMBYs within a 200 mile radius had thrown enough roadblocks (most based on half truths and outright lies) in their way they gave up and expanded another wind farm they already had running. Some basic common sense requirements are no doubt warranted, but things have gotten way out of hand and we're all paying for it one way or another.

  15. Can you multiply 0.37 by the population of NYC? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You may use your toes, if necessary.

  16. Bezoes - what a cunt! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    First he angers the left wing by being successful, then he angers the right wing, who should be his natural allies, by insulting them.

    Do you get the feeling this guy is gonna die without any friends?

    If you need any bridges burned, just ask Bezoes. Heâ(TM)s got plenty of experience.

  17. Reality TV by Only+Time+Will+Tell · · Score: 1

    Man, this whole thing is starting to feel like a dating reality show where the star can't make up their mind on who they want to date. Amazon decided to do this highly public publicity stunt on who they'd pick, ending up with the two cities everyone thought from the beginning, while stringing along hundreds of communities desperate for the economic shot-in-the-arm those 50K (or now 25K given the split) would bring. If Amazon wants to be revolutionary and really help its community, place it in a rust-belt city in Indiana, Ohio, or Pennsylvania where it would spur a life-changing transformation in the community.

  18. Right Way (Virginia) vs. Wrong Way (New York) by Koreantoast · · Score: 1

    There's a right way and a wrong way to do incentives. Virginia was smart about their incentives - large amounts were deals to do additional investments in Arlington - reach X number of jobs, we'll upgrade the subway station, upgrade the light rail, etc. New York just gave them a giant bag of money.

    1. Re:Right Way (Virginia) vs. Wrong Way (New York) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It wasn't about the money, that was the icing. They had pre-selected sites in mind obviously for various internal reasons. Ask Bezos about it. The NYC selection was not an arithmetically rational choice even with the money.

      NYC is a saturated expensive area. The money wouldn't change that and would be gone within a few years of operation at the very longest. To locate such a large operation anywhere you need logistical growth concerns met.

      NYC is anything but that.

  19. China by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Move to China Amazon ... you're already a massive Chinese junk outlet, might as well go all the way. Good riddance when you do.

  20. fuck!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Cunt!!!@