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Toshiba Snubs Linux/IrDA Developers
We could (and should) let them know how many of us will not be buying Toshiba laptops because of this. Here is an online form for any of you who have a Toshiba Sales Questions. I sure do! As the owner of a Tecra laptop that won't work with Linux/IrDA now, I'm quite upset by this development. Here is the rest of the post that Dag made to the Linux/IrDA mailing list:
Since it's impossible to write device drivers for their products, they will never get the same Linux support as with other laptops. Toshiba are free to choose whichever policy they like (and we should respect that), but then we have no other choice but to not buy their products. Toshiba does not want to support Linux, so they should also respect that we are forced to recommend Linux users not to buy their products.
-- Dag
I've got a Satellite 200CDS with an Ir port, but have it configured as a COM port (/dev/cua1). What additional ability would a driver offer?
Well, I'll just have to look in some other companies. I hope that IBM will announce that they will support Linux on their ThinkPads.
Why not add other companies' products to the boycott list. I actually think this would be very helpfull. It's fairly hard to find hardware compatibility information, so a non-compatibility (boycott) page would be great. I for one would not recommend buying one of these new HP printers until they release information on their proprietary protocol (ppa or whatever it is).
That's just it. Supporting Linux is not required to sell product. Businesses all over the place that have nothing to do with Linux will still buy from Toshiba, and I suspect that's where Toshiba makes most of their money.
Perhaps Pacific Hi-tech could help in this?
I really like Toshiba Satellites (deployed a bunch of them in the field at a previous job) but they were running Win 9x. Was going to get one for myself to run Linux but will now probably avoid them given this.
Any suggestions on what brands work well with Linux and are manufactured by Linux-friendly companies?
I am looking at low-end laptops, under $1,300.
And I will send a copy of my reciept to Toshiba with a note telling them why I didn't buy a Toshiba.
This is what I got after filling out their form (http://www.csd.toshiba.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/Tos hiba.woa/-/EmailSales.wo?):
"Your session has timed out."
Sorry Toshiba...
-Me
I had been looking forward to Toshiba's new line of stand-alone DVD players however I will not support a company that makes decisions like this. I have hereby marked Toshiba off my list.
You guys are a little late on the bandwagon with this boycot Toshiba stuff. I've been boycoting them since they sold the USSR the software and computer aided manufacturing equipment that the US and NATO countries used to make Submarine Propellers. Turned some of their lemon subs into hard to hear sneaky little bastards and this of course violated several laws (ITAR and such). Anyway, I've refused to buy anything from them since.
I've never owned a laptop and am wondering
what IrDA is. Is it some type of IR communications port?
And I was looking forward to getting a Toshiba. It's not gonna happen with this little piece of news. Does anyone know of a good laptop-maker? Looking for fairly high-end (SUPPORTED, STANDARD) stuff....
Ok - it does suck - but I'm more interested in the next gen stuff....
Maybe not...
My Compaq Armada 1530 (133/48) runs Sybase ASE, apache 1.3.4 (with mod_perl) and is quite happy.
Running NT 4.0 IIS4 and SQL-server 6.5/7.0 on this machine is out of the question, and 95/98 is a joke.
This is a nothing but a wake-up call for the stupid management at Toshiba. It says nothing about how far Linux has to go.
This has happened to Linux before mind you, but most companies wise up sooner or later.
My guess is either clueless management or monkey-buisness with Mickeysoft.
-Me
Yes, I agree with you.
I have been thinking about this for a while, since
I don't want to buy again hardware that is not supported under linux or where the hardware
manufacturers refuse to hand in the required info to build the drivers.
I am particularly annoyed with ATI for ATI video Card. The bastards only want to provide it for Microsoft OSs.
HEY EVERYBODY lets open the www.linuxblacklist.org site.
This is no different then IBM not releasing any information about their Mwave (software driven modems). I don't know if IBM will ever come out with support for Linux because of the way the Mwave works. It's a sound card and Modem so it (as a device) uses 2 irq's and about 3 or 4 I/O addresses. I have never like Toshiba anyway. Their magnesium cases are not a good as IBM's.
Look here -- it's expensive, but if a bunch of Linux companies threw some money in the pot...
APPLE
APPLE APPLE APPLE APPLE APPLE APPLE
There powerbooks kick so much ass they are soo cool.
If i had money id buy one.
This is something the Linux community could really use. I am so fscking sick and tired of buying hardware only to find it incompatible with Linux. Please, someone get this organized, I'd help in any way possible.
My current company currently has toshiba laptops given to just about every employee. We have lots of problems with 'little things' like the irda port, pcmcia, unavailable IRQs, bad power management, poor windoze integration (finger pointing all around), and no linux/freeBSD/NT4sp4 support. They run just one version of a customized win95 with basic apps support, and everything else is just a crapshoot.
:-)
One example is an irda comm program that works with Nokia phones (with irda ports). It works on everything except Toshita machines, so we are all out of luck.
Our 5 year contract with Toshiba has been cancelled, and the replacement is going to be either Sony or IBM. I'm voting for IBM, but I have only a small voice in the whole process (testing our own products for compatibility).
So its not just the linux community abandoning toshiba, lots of large customers are doing the same thing, even for windoze support.
Boycott? Its already bigger than toshiba's worst nightmare
Although, AFAIK the support for some of their
(ATI) video chipsets is a bit lacking due to
lack of manufacturer cooperation.
Most of the Toshiba's I've seen are broken anyway.
I just bought a laptop from www.zenontech.com..
The sound board is a ESS Maestro-2 (which should
have drivers from 4front in March) and the
video board is a Trident (which works under X)..
Seems like a really nice computer at a very
nice price and you can buy it without Microsoft
Windows installed...
So who cares about Toshiba?
Try:
http://www.yellowdoglinux.com/
Don't know about IrDA support though
Yes considering IBMs upcoming support options for Linux, I'd bet this year you will be able to buy new Thinkpads with Linux preinstalled.
jmr
As a guy, I've never bought a box of Tampax, yet I am not boycotting them.
Runs linux well, spiffy machine. If I were in the market for a laptop, that's what I'd buy.
Being a newbie doesn't prevent you from following the link that's given.
I was trying to decide which DVD drive to get for my multimedia machine.. Guess it'll be a Hitachi 2500...
I guess I won't be buying anymore products from them... I almost bought a laptop from them. Good thing I read /. ;)
Skip the suits in the USA. Being American corporatre executives, they are morons.
Send your feedback directly to Japan, by using this link and form:
https://www2.toshiba.co.jp/c ontact/cgi-bin/request.cgi
HarryZ
You DO obviously know that the Palm III is NOT IRDA compliant, and as a result cannot synchronize via an infrared port to a desktop/laptop
My previous experiences of this sort of support from Toshiba is why I just recently bought an IBM instead.
My ThinkPad i1720 runs Red Hat 5.2 just fine, except for the Lucent winmodem. Now where's Lucent with their Linux drivers???
It's unnecessary.
Basically a person who intends to run Linux should check each piece of hardware to see if it's going to be supported properly. There's no need to identify unfriendly COMPANIES, just the specific hardware that works or doesn't work.
I really was considering buying a Toshiba laptop, but if I can't make use the of the IrDA port I guess I'll just have to go with another brand.
/. effect ;)
I sent a polite message to Toshiba (using their CGI feedback form, took around 20 retires until it finally accepted it, must be the
telling them I wont be buying their laptops, and I hope other people do so too. Just remember that a kind word always goes further than
immature ranting. Who knows, if enough people write to them about it, maybe someone will take notice. Nobody likes bad press.
Hello, several years ago, I ran a page called the 'Linux Hardware Incompatability List', which was dedicated to all the hardware that doesn't run on Linux. Since there is less of that than all the stuff that *does* work, it is easier to maintain.
If there were interest in reviving it, I could either 1. tell people more or less what was involved, so others could do it(heh, right...), or 2. do it myself given the following:
A. web space
B. mod_dtcl installed (http://comanche.com.dtu.dk/dave/)
C. Postgresql
D. It would have to have a reasonable fast connection.
Send mail to davidw@prosa.it
Ciao!
Times are indeed interesting of late. It's quite
paradoxical that IBM, long known for their sealed-
lips policies on such things as hardware standards (anyone remember MCA, 8514, XGA?), is
now among the best vendor for opening their stan-
dards.
I wonder how the specifications for the MCA bus
which allows Linsux to fully support it came to
be in the hands of developers...
Is it just me, or has there been a fundamental
shift in the marketplace? I mean, if top-heavy
IBM is jumping on the bandwagon, stuffed shirts
and all, how long can other companies hold out?
IBM has been known for their technological inno-
vation, as well. We'd all be running an MCA-4
bus on our PCs now, and would have had superior
automatic configuration capability had IBM just
opened its standards. As it is, they kept their
specs closed and were unable to bring that dream
about. They lost the competitive edge in the PC
market-place as a standards-maker. People laughed
in the face of IBM for PC products. Who's
laughing now?
Rant, rant, rant, rave, rave, rave, pointlessly...
--Corey Brenner, too lazy to create an account.
Some marketdroid at Toshiba has his head up his ass.
So what if we know about a bloody IrDA chip inside a Toshiba box? So what if we refund a Windows license we don't need? To-sheep-baa should be in the business of pleasing its customers, especially on a no-brainer issue like this. IrDA is a bloody industry standard, not some proprietary patented Toshiba black box.
One pissed off customer (or in this case, an entire community) will do far more damage than the hundred thousand idiots that actually buy their shit.
Not anonymous, just can't log in from work,
SuperDuck
rdanneskjold@hotmail.com
With a bit of pooled knowledge and effort, it wouldn't be impossible to get the relevant data through reverse engineering the Windows drivers that Toshiba supplies. This could be a good project .. has anyone got an URL for a possible location of such drivers, if they are available on the Internet someplace?
Oh like any of you care about irda anyways..
irda is just a way for moron middle management to play around during meetings. It has no use at all. Irda range sucks, the amount of time it takes to set it up I'd rather just plug in my $20.00 pcmcia network card. Nnone cares about irda... unless one can make it change the channels on the tv... then it would be fun... Hand me my laptop, I need to change the channel.
A colleague recently got one of those super-thin Sony VAIO's, and got Linux working on it with a minimal amount of effort. You need a pretty new kernel for the PCMCIA IDE support to use the CDROM, but everything else was ok.
Clerk: Is it still under warrenty?
Customer: Yes
Clerk: Okay, well what is wrong with it?
Customer: The Linux/IrDA is broken.
Clerk: Okay.
Narrator: Later that afternoon...
Customer: Hello, IBM?...
Toshiba is the company that broke some U.S. - Japan agreements back in the cold war and sold high tech info to the USSR that allowed them to make superior screws for their submarines, resulting in faster, quieter and more dangerous subs.
I haven't bought a Toshiba product in way over a decade.
Vaios rule. The keyboard is better. They have a real modem (not a winmodem). Everything works under linux (haven't tried irda).
x
I had not thought about the McCarthyst connotation
of linuxblacklist.org (I am not american)
Therefore I suggest www.linuxhoot.org as an alternative.
Oxford dictionary gives:
1: An owl's cry [friend of penguin!]
2: The sound made by a motor horn [great for an OS!]
3: A shout expressing scorn or disapproval
4: A short outburst (of laughter) [World domination!]
5: colloq. Anything at all (don't care a hoot)
Cheers,
TNN
Modem works great. It is a real modem, not a winmodem. I have one, everything works great under linux (haven't tried irda). This is a good machine and Sony should be rewarded (good price too I thought). I wonder if they are aware of Linux?
x
You folks should had seen this comming. Due to the popularity of Linux, you seriously believe that ALL corperations will follow the lead of OpenSource? No, your are going to get companies who are stick when it comes to intellectual properties, they wont source it out becuase they own the patents.
Free, Free, Free, Bitch, Bitch, Bitch. That aditude will only scare off dev's who WANT to make money off of Linux.
What used to be a hacker's hobby will soon become an industry standard, and not everything will be free. Get used to it okay?
I bought a Toshiba rice cooker once which crapped out after four months.
The heart of this debate seems to be the application of Open Source standards (no proprietary source code) to computer hardware - specifically, the IrDa port.
I'm sold that Open Source is the way for software to go. "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" makes sense to me.
However, I can't fault a manufacturer for being more protective of hardware.
As I understand it, and no I'm not a computer professional, source code never really becomes obsolete. Large chunks of old source code can be carried to new projects. If one routine is revised, but the input and output calls are the same, then the rest of the project does not necessarily have to be revised.
Hardware, on the other hand, seems a more treacherous business. It's not enough that the system merely work, it also has to satisfy weight, power, heat, and EM emissions constraints. Replacing one component can cause the constraints to be violated, needing a redesign of any or all parts of the other system. There's not much to do with obsolete components but sell them at discount.
So I can see any computer manufacturer as being sensitive about the specifics of their hardware. Any edge is important, but will have a finite lifespan.
Suppose Toshiba went whole-hog and made all of its tech specs public. How would it make up for letting IBM, Compaq, etc. get the benefit of its notes as well as their own R&D?
I can't point a finger at IBM either but I question their motives or reason behind the things they do. DSP technology is pretty good when you have backing for it. I saw on TV not to long ago an OS that Sun made called Jeanie (I believe that was the name) and it is an OS that can be programmed to do just about anything. One key aspect that they brought up was device to device communication. Tv could talk to the VCR etc (don't know why it would want to though :) ). Another idea was to have the first true universal remote control. It could learn the transmiting codes for every remote control device you have. It could then with a touch screen display (on a remote control just like what you have now though a little larger) display all the buttons for whatever remote you are using. Just select on screen which remote you want and it will display the keys for it. Some companies have already agreed to use this new universal os/communication system like philips, GE, etc but the remote control idea is still up in the air. They claimed that Hardon/Kardon and I think Kenwood have simular ideas already out but not being universal etc.
Well, do they provide that information to M$? More fuel for the M$ anti-trust issue.
Also, since they do business in the U.S. shouldn't they have to provide that information to M$ competitors on the same basis that they provide it to M$?
I dunno, just wondering if anyone else does.
Toshiba laptops rock. I run Linux on all of them and they work great. We should petition ( we being linux users, not only developers) and Im pretty sure we will see results.
with a precompiled module, that's all.
Humm. This top level decision must be new because
i actually got through to Toshiba engineers at
some point and got them to release documentation
(all be it - a rough draft) for the Cardbus PIC
so that the PCMCIA people (David Hinds et. al.)
could support the Tecra notebooks.
Lots of phone calls and begging - but it paid off.
I do not understand the point in hiding API specs for products like drivers for video *cough* ATI *cough* or ethernet *cough* Xircom *cough* and now this! You'd think these companies would want their products available on as many platforms as possible to increase sales. If they don't want to be bothered to write the driver, then fine, leave the documentation available and someone else will write a freely available one in no time. They are just shooting themselves in the foot. It's a DRIVER for god's sake, not the actual hardware design they are giving out, and even if it was, the hardware design is no doubt copyrighted anyways. We gotta start reverse engineering this crap and show them up.
-Lord Crass
not to be to disrespectful to all the arrogent linux users out there but I do find it kind of funny how toshiba has a line of computers with BeOS installed on them.. maybe they arent so stupid..
Heh.. Yep. Did you notice the :)?
The Palm III MOST DEFINITELY can synchronize via the IRDA port on a laptop. http://www.iscomplete.com/
There is a little program out there named IR/Sync (I think) that will let you. On the laptop (Thinkpad 385XD) I told it to use the IR port as the serial port, pointed the Palm III at the IR reciviver hit "Sync" and they did exactly that.
I have been boycotting Toshiba ever since they helped the Soviet Union build quieter subs.
Cost US taxpayers billions to work around.
Was always suprised that the spooks never did
anything to their top management.
yeh... buying a toshiba laptop was the worst computer mistake I ever made... :-P
I will never buy so much as a diskette from those rat bastards
Debian already has an Open Hardware certification program, but it seems that not many companies have taken advantage of it. Maybe all they need is a good slogan...
Just personal preference, but I hate trackpads.
They just don't work well with me.
I was just cutting my teeth in the industry when toshiba sold that computer controlled metal-working equipment...
They put an ad in electronic news
An Apology from the Toshiba Corporation
I shrunk then down to about 2x3 inches and
handed them out... "have a personal apology from the toshiba corporation"
I also avoid their stuff... though the protege sure is sweet (c'mon ibm... something similar please!) though I am happy as hell with my thinkpad 760EL's.
Anyway, nice to know someone else reacted similarly.
After just hearing word from the Linux IRDA mailing list that Toshiba are 'offically' not going to be releasing specs on their
Infra-red drivers, I should bring to your attention the fact that this has -lost-
your company the sales of 7 Portege Laptops. Our
current 'fleet' are aging Acer laptops, all running linux, which interface, OVER IR, to our central server. After seeing the advertisments you have been putting in the papers in australia recently (hideously expensive advertisments, I assume) I was quite prepared to buy a set (5 7010's for the staff, and 2 7020's for us) - they're -very- nice looking machines, extremely
portable, and very powerful. All this aside,
you can make the machines look pretty, but if they
can't do what the customer wants them to do, they're useless.
Now, I'm not sure who 'you' are - the person on the front line, reading this message. But I would
appreciate this message being passed 'up the chain' to someone who can be made aware that the decision to keep the specs of the IR port secret is doing nothing but losing you sales.
Thanks,
--Rob Thomas
Manager, RP Internet Services.
If you hate them, do not buy them. You could be racist instantly. Right?
Ok. You found the typo in the post. I understand that you know a bit of English grammer. I was curious if somebody in this thread could understand the correct grammer.
BTW, your post also contains some grammatically fragmented sentences.
I hope that you find them in your previous post.
No one can't blame on another if he or she hasn't any knowledge of the subject. If you hate Toshiba laptops, you do not need to buy them. You just want a cheap piece of crap instead. You also have the option of buying
I don't know why the previous poster responded to my post while he thought that my post was worthless. I think that he needs to return to the country whence his ancestor came. To *MUCKY* *urope or wherever.
You folks should had seen this comming.
No, we didn't believe companies was that stupid any longer.
Due to the popularity of Linux, you seriously believe that ALL corperations will follow the lead of OpenSource?
We believed Toshiba was in the buissness of selling computers, not the OS made in Redmont. This has nothing to do with OSS.
No, your are going to get companies who are stick when it comes to intellectual properties, they wont source it out becuase they own the patents.
And your point beeing?
Does Compaq loose market-share when they produce drivers for their RAID-adapters?
Free, Free, Free, Bitch, Bitch, Bitch. That aditude will only scare off dev's who WANT to make money off of Linux.
You'r the only one bitching here...
What used to be a hacker's hobby will soon become an industry standard, and not everything will be free. Get used to it okay?
Toshiba will have to get used to see good customers turning to their competitors.
-Me
Right.
I really hope that a particular group of people in the U.S. don't get so self-centered.
Some people take offence to "BlackList" references, myself included.
Don't just start a blacklist and blacklist companies that we don't like. I think it's a good idea to blacklist companies that's working against the linux community, like Toshiba in this case. The important thing is that the criterias for being blacklisted is clear and simple. If someone start a blacklist page, be sure to make it a serious campaign.
Well I'm not too sadened by this.
I have used Toshiba portable PCs for a long time now (I have to at work) and they are a load of crap. The quality is terrible.
Soo, Good luck Toshiba.
I love my Toshiba Tecra 740CDT. Heavy bastard, but a good deal when I bought it and a damn nice display! I usually don't lug a laptop, I just need something portable for when I travel on business. Having a good Linux machine with me makes my job a lot easier.
I knew full Linux support wasn't there when I bought it (I needed to add my own modem, I didn't even try IrDA), but I figured that would come in time. Now I guess it won't. I was seriously considering moving up to a Portege (like I said, the Tecra's a heavy bastard) but now I guess I'll have to look for something else when the time comes.
Good bye, Toshiba. Unless you change your tune I won't be able to buy your laptops anymore.
I care!
I have an Ericsson SH888 (IR/modem), a Pilot-III and a Compaq Armada.
Please tell me why a shitload of cables is better than IR.
Don't judge IrDa by your own ignorance.
-Me
>Some people take offence to "BlackList" >references, myself included.
Just one word...
...niggardly
I have been trying to get Red Hat 5.2 on my Tecra 500CDT. It is nearly impossible to configure the screen because the Tecra consistently recognizes it as either a 640x480 or a 1024x7?? when the screen is really an 800x600. Needless to say things are pretty annoying (but I am impressed with Linux's resillience considering the situation). If I don't solve this problem soon I will have no choice but to reinstall Windoze thanks to their little bitch, Toshiba. SAVE ME!!!!!
nek8@columbia.edu
Not the same thing. This chevy not giving you the specs on their equipment so that _you_ can't put the ford mustang engine in your chevy.
VA might be wonderful but they are way too expensive!
Tosh is one of many... Take Lexmark for instance.
Their inkjet priters not only don't work on Linux
but they won't go on any OS besides Windoze or
OS/2... I asked for file-format info and got the
'it's a host-based device, and we can't give you
the control codes/driver source' crap...
As for ATI, XF86 will figure out the chip eventually
-DCA (Not quite an anonymous coward)
The linux community is learning very fast from Microsoft.
Maybe Toshiba is not working against anyone, but with their policy it's impossible to be sure that any toshiba product is going to work with linux. And that is the purpose of a blacklist (or whatever you call it), to inform people of products that's not sure to work with linux.
And remember that everyone who isn't with me is against me, isn't that what the bible says. Toshiba is't cooperating with linux!
great idea. Someone register the domain, and put links from slashdot, linux daily news, freshmeat, the whole ring.
Also, its not McCarthiesm, bah! we will post good reasons for each listing, (ie: no specs available).
Dont worry about specifics now get the DAMNED DOMAIN UP! it will have an IMMEDIATE EFFECT
I just sent a message to Toshiba and included the model serial and registration numbers to prove I'm a customer. The core of the message was the expectation that hardware companies will cooperate with software developers and I will not purchase or recommend products at work from companies that do not cooperate with software developers.
The laptop is a 730xcdt/2.1 [love it]
No I don't think the appropriate word is boycott.
If it doesn't work, don't buy. Linux doesn't need
Toshiba anyway.
If there needs to be a website, how 'bout
workswithlinux.org with honest hardware
reviews from real people. Toshiba figures that
they are going to give away some trade secret
that will help one of their competitors. They
should focus on support and building a quality
product. That will help them sell computers. Not
paranoia. Why would any logical corporation turn
down free driver sup
Hasn't anyone heard of www.openhardware.org? Anyone who supports Linux should support this, and it's success would ensure the Toshiba syndrome would happen a lot less. If you have a web-page put a link to openhardware on it. This is probably one of THE most important Linux projects out there, but I see very little of it on the 'net. Some companies are probably "openhardware compiant" already, but are unaware of this projects existance! Promoting this would in effect accomplish the same objectives as the proposed "linuxblacklist.org" but in a much more positive environment.
Yes, I'm writing this on a Toshiba with Linux! They'll change their tune. My impression is that the american subsidiary, Toshiba America, really has little to do with corporate strategic direction. When Toshiba Japan wakes up to the fact that supporting Linux is required to sell product, you'll be amazed how fast they act. Trouble is, we'll just have to wait for that grand realization. The delay is largely culture gap. Keep in mind, they sell far more computers to air-heads than tech-heads...
(So which one am I? Had to beat you guys to the punch!)
But supporting Linux should be required to sell product, even to the most clueless IT departments who never intend to run anything other than Lotus Notes.
Knowing that your computer hardware supports Linux means that you're not stuck with a single-vendor OS, so you won't be forced to follow Microsoft's every whim, like if someday they forced you to install IE 6.0 on every machine in your company to fix a security hole in Word 2002, or if the government takes them over and forces them to add "anti-terrorist" features which cc every email message to the FBI.
Linux hardware compatibility is a safeguard in case things go wrong, like having the source code for your expensive mainframe software placed in escrow, or using electronic parts available from second sources. That kind of thinking appeals to conservative companies. Why not get the word out and make "Linux support" a checklist item on every IT manager's list. Who cares if they never use it. It will only help those who are clueful enough to actually use Linux.
for Toshiba and several other laptop brands (I'm logging in as AC because I don't want my boss to see my email address in this posting). I have NEVER recommended ANYBODY to buy a Toshiba laptop, Linux user or not, because of their very poor design/engineering and horrid technical support. Tecras are the most poorly put-together laptops currently on the market, and they often take 2 or 3 months after release to develop BIOS/drivers just to make it them work with Windows 9x, so forget about NT or Linux or anything else. My shop's average turn-around for any Toshiba is 1 week longer than for other brands, since their high level of complexity requires us to order 2 or even 3 parts where others require 1.
If you're looking for a good laptop for Linux, try the Compaq Armada. They are very well engineered, a snap to service, all the hardware is supported by Linux (I think), and the company is at lease marginally Linux-friendly. If you've got the bucks, IBM Thinkpads are about the highest-quality laptops on the market (the new ones only, their P5-166's and slower were pretty flakey). I installed Red Hat 5.0 on a Thinkpad P5-233 about 8 months ago -- everything worked except the sound card, but I seem to recall hearing a rumor about kernel 2.2 working with MWave sound.
Roethavin
I found this at my fav site http://slashdot.org
Toshiba Snubs Linux/IrDA Developers
by that link I went to http://www.cs.uit.no/linux-irda/
and found this
> I'm sorry to say that Toshiba has decided to > not disclose any information about the
> chipsets inside their laptops. I therefore need > a new laptop in order to continue the
> FIR development for Linux-IrDA. If you, or your > company, would consider
> donating, or give a special price for a laptop > (don't need to be a new one), please
> mail me The only requirement is of course that > it contains a FIR (4Mbps)
> controller (where it's possible to get the > documentation).
This is not the first time I have heard this. I am a firm believer in open source and
technologies (and linux, free-bsd and the like). Other companies bend over backward,
you seem to have a problem with progressive works.
Here is what toshiba's opinion gets from me.
1. I will not buy any more toshiba laptops (I have one of your laptops and have owned 3 so far) I have owned many of your other products also.
2. My company will not buy any more toshiba products either, as I recommend brands and
request the purchases. The six new laptops we buy this year will NOT be toshibas.
3. I will flame toshiba products on mailing lists and the like every time I see someone wanting to buy one.
A simple change in policy would stop all this and continue my love of toshiba products.
have a nice day
(My sig was here)
\\'
The Fujitsu Lifebooks seem to be pretty good, aside from the winmodems. I have a 770TX, which is basically the same as the new E-series, and it's working wonderfully with Linux on it. Their tech support was quite happy to answer my questions about the various chipsets, etc. so I could check for Linux compatability.
\\'
not to buy their laptops, realizing (of course) I am using a Toshiba 19" monitor to view my text.
no touch pad, which on GW2K has the mouse cursor jump unpredictably to another area of the screen. Touch typing can really generate some interesting code!
desperately hanging on to the Microsoft tit. (Forgive me ladies)
Boycotting Toshiba is the last thing *I'd* do; instead, I just don't purchase their products. No boycotting involved - just fact. My reason is that I have dealt personnally with their support department and have found it sorely lacking.
Toshiba has such potential! Why do they persist in not utilizing it? Sad... so sad.
Codifex Maximus ~ In search of... a shorter sig.
Instead, create a list of products that aren't compatible with Linux and make it part of an extended report of those pieces of hardware that are compatible or are working towards compatability. Congratulate those companies who are making strides towards compatability and partnering with the Linux community.
Publish the report visibly! Kernel.org, LI, Slashdot.org, Freshmeat.net, c.o.l.a, LUG's, etc... Make press releases on state of compatability and compliance to Netcenter, Linuxtoday, LWN, ZDNet, InfoWorld.
Codifex Maximus ~ In search of... a shorter sig.
I feel that boycotting, in it's most pristine definition, is refusing to buy based on a principle and usually in the company of others who feel likewise - possibly because *I* have influenced their opinion.
:)
My reasons for not purchasing Toshiba are many. Primarily, I don't like the support. (A purely consumer oriented reason.) Secondarily, I now build my own systems and am so satified with my own performance that I will buy from me again. Thirdly, I wont buy from an OEM that doesn't offer alternatives to Windows or at least give me an option of purchasing a barebones machine - I don't want Windows. Anyway, the principle is that I won't buy what I don't want. So... you might go so far as to say that I am boycotting based on a principle though my primary and secondary reasons make the tertiary reason mute! Therefore, I don't consider it a boycott in the purest sense of the word.
My thesis being... one should avoid purchasing from an OEM not because of principle (boycott) but because of consumer reasons: Bad support, no choice of OS, limited support by company for groups of consumers attempting to provide support for their hardware. A very fine line indeed but a line nonetheless!
We're trying to build bridges here!
Codifex Maximus ~ In search of... a shorter sig.
Yes and No. A frequently updated HWC-HOWTO is good and should form the basis for such a report as I'm suggesting. However, the HWC-HOWTO is not actually published in a forward sort of way though - it's merely available on a distro and at the LDP I believe.
We need a very public, very vocal report on the state of compatability that is based on the information in the updated HWC-HOWTO. Maybe LI could award certain corporate entities for being outstanding partners of the community - maybe rate the OEM for it's level of participation and/or support.
These are very coarse and first-generation ideas but they can probably be developed into a more comprehensive solicitation of and recognition for the participation of the industry in Linux.
Maybe, we could call it the TUX awards.
Outstanding Support, Most Popular Tools, Most Popular Hardware, Outstanding Contribution to OpenSource, etc... etc... etc...
Codifex Maximus ~ In search of... a shorter sig.
Posted by DeePGRooVe:
I waited all this time for my company replace our 486 notebooks and what happens. When they do, they give us nice shiny Tecra 8000's. Eerything works except for the pcmcia controller... Now it's looks like it won't happen for a while.
Down with Toshiba!!!!!!!
Posted by The Evil Dwarf from Hell:
I apparently made a great hw choice and went with the IBM hardware... now I can get support for both my Intellistation and my Thinkpad!!! Big Blue and Red Hat too...
They work against themselves! Ignoring the wishes of customers is something that good businessmen should try to avoid.
If I don't get what I need and what I pay for I leave it and buy anything else.
BTW, it's particulary sad that Toshiba did this decision, because I already asked my boss to get me one of them, but it has to run Linux, too.
And: the European models are produced here in Regensburg/Germany and quite a few friends wort there and they like it.
Konrad
I bought a Toshiba laptop one year ago.. wouldn't have if I had known this though.. I like my laptop though.. :(
--Since your company has chosen not to support Linux, I will no longer consider Toshiba in my future purchase decisions, and will recommend same to my friends who use Linux.
--Hopefully your company will reconsider its position on this matter.
.
== WolfriderV6 == I'm willing to admit that *I just might* be wrong... Are you??
Last week I was told that I can purchase a lap on the company's dime. "Any laptop I wanted" was what I was told. I was going to order a Toshiba after looking at some local stores. Thanks to /. I have just ordered my new IBM think pad. ( after complaining to Toshiba of course ).
Some thing tells me that Toshiba really does not want the LINUX UN-FRIENDLY tag on there products. They may just be too dumb to know it yet.
Last one in jail is a fascist.
It seems to me what is needed is someone or some group to maintain a list of manufacturers of various computing products, and their stance/level of support for Linux et al. (It may need to be handled on a per-product level.) So if I want to check out the Linux-readiness of a system or upgrade, I'd just look up the hardware I'm thinking about on this site, and I could easily make an informed choice.
The site might also solicit companies and organizations to sign on to indicate what level of support for Linux they demand, to serve as a prod to hardware companies to nudge them towards opening their products. A few big names on the list (or a big list of names) might be more effective than the occasional e-mail from a customer requesting/demanding open products.
So if you're not a programmer but want to help the Linux, etc. effort, here's a potential role to play.
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
You may recall their hassling the "tucows" freeware site because of the Holsteins; they have also done quite a bit of other improper trademark litigation, IMNHO. I will never purchase systems from firms which engage in this sort of practice.
"My opinions are my own, and I've got *lots* of them!"
Screw them. There are plenty of other notebook makers out there that want our/my money and are actually even better.
The WSJ and other mainstream press have reported that IBM will be *shipping* linux on thinkpads later this year.
Video Xpression +
Note the + at the end, very different from the ATI Video Xpression, which is listed as working.
This particular baby chokes, pukes, and dies with the Mach64 server. IF it weren't for the SVGA server I'd have no X at all.
(I could use VGA16, but why?)
Two Words: Wiggle Dick.
:-)
:-)
It's the same reason I won't buy an IBM. I hate those friggin' little things. Gets in the way, can't control it worth a shit, looks like someone stabbed my laptop with a pencil. Gimme a touchpad any day. Of course, gimme a regular mouse if I wanna do *any* kind of image manipulation though.
I've run Linux successfully on Magitronic (no name 486 and also P133), Dell (PII) and my current Compaq Armada 1592DMT. All had touchpads, all had TFT screens which worked beautifully in X, all have standard IRDA ports and PCMCIA controllers. The built-in modem in my Armada is a standard 56k v.90, the CD works and even the APM functionality works correctly. Screw Toshiba.
I had to get special IRDA drivers for one that the one service tech uses downstairs from Japan. Apparently they aren't all that compatible with Win95/98, either.
BTW: It's kind of amusing seeing all the people here talk of PERL Harbour... I didn't know that Mr. Wall had his own language AND his own harbour.
Seriously, does Dell, or Compaq, or any of the leading laptop makers disclose information about the internal workings of thier laptop line to Linux developers?
I don't know myself, but I would like to hear that others do this before I condem Toshiba for not doing so.
> You Stinks as hell. You need higher education before you consider posting your stuff.
And you would say this why?
Were you attempting, in your typo-filled response, to criticize the previous poster's grammar and/or punctuation? I suggest that your post looks significantly more foolish than the one you replied to. The original post, while it contained text that could be improved by changing some punctuation marks to other punctuation marks, never contained a subject-verb disagreement or a blatant capitalization mistake; it certainly never contained a spelling typo (you spelled "well" as "hell" in your post's body). In fact, the first post if read aloud read as perfectly grammatically correct English.
So apparently this higher education you suggest isn't one of learning to proofread posts for grammar or spelling nits; what then could you be suggesting? Do you hope that a higher education would allow the first poster to build his own stuff from scratch, thereby obviating the need to ever buy any computer hardware from anyone? Perhaps you mean that if properly "educated", the first poster would never think of criticizing Toshiba. If so, I think I join with the first poster when I tell you to crawl back into the muck from whence you came. Once again, an anonymous coward has succeeded in creating a post that just makes me boggle at the potential idiocy present in humanity.
What I think he means is that he doesn't want to get vocal about it. That's the other part of a boycott: spreading the word about it.
theres a lot of good points here, I've read a number of 'posts' requesting the hardware HOWTO and I guess this helps to a degree. A suggestion worth considering is a table summarising laptop/Linux HW compatability so you can check beforehand. Something along the lines of
- hw make
- model
- linux hw features supported
- driver number
- linux distribution
- etc.
There's a lot of new HW coming out and it would be useful to see what HW has a driver and what doesn't..This type of information will ultimately reflect in sales. If it's the bucks that drive T, you'll soon see a response. If it's ideological well...
btw, I choose linux 'cause it's free
peterrenshaw ~ Another Scrappy Startup
Dear Toshiba Representative:
I have been a computer user for close to 20 years; having used PC's for the past 10 years. Over the past 5 years I have become familiar with Unix, and have used Linux exclusively on my home PCs for the last 2 years. I have found Linux to be a much more viable and efficient working environment than other commercially available alternatives.
For some time I have been looking into purchasing a laptop. Since I build all of my own PC's a laptop will be a much more significant purchase than any of my previous PC upgrades. I have, up to this point, been most impressed by the Toshiba Satellite Pro series of laptops. They appear to be a solid product for a good price. I have, however, been very disappointed by Toshiba's recent position toward the Linux community.
Toshiba has taken two specific recent actions that upset me:
Recently users of alternative operating systems, such as Linux, became aware of a clause in Microsoft's "End User License Agreement" that allowed users of non-Microsoft operating systems that did not choose to use MS "Windows" to contact their manufacture for refunds on their unused software. In response to this, Toshiba modified the packaging of their laptops so that unpacking the laptop required accepting the Microsoft license, therefore rescinding the refund offer.
Also, when contacted by Dag Brattli, the lead developer in the Linux/IrDA project, Toshiba responded with a policy decision to not disclose any information regarding chips inside their laptops. This was even in light of Dag being a volunteer developer, donating his time to make Linux a better platform. (He was offering his time to make Linux compatible with YOUR hardware!)
In light of these actions I have decided to NOT purchase a Toshiba laptop (or any other Toshiba product for that matter) until Toshiba makes some serious changes in its attitude toward the Linux platform.
Loren Osborn
a concerned consumer
Loren Osborn
Loren Osborn
Imagine a car dealer doing the same thing! This is a hilarious gaffe. I'm sure some suit for Toshiba will be coming forward soon denying the whole affair. I love the way the GNU/Linux shakes things up!
I like Toshiba, too. I think a lot of people are going to be put off by this. Oh well, some other computer company will get their business..
Reason and respect are never moot. People can change their minds, management can be turned over, and market forces can change. Keeping on the good side of Toshiba is in everyone's best interests. Adolescent-style temper-tantrums will produce nothing. Let's show a little maturity, eh?
Actually, I find Toshiba's laptops to be quite nice. Far better than Compaq's hardware. A lot less proprietary, too. Running FreeBSD on my Compaq, I was unable to use PCCards, but with my brand-new Toshiba, it's all good. As for IR, it'll be a nice frill, but I'm in no hurry. A 10BaseT line is far more effective than IR.
Vendors of IrDA stuff that aren't as closed minded as Toshiba might want to check this out. It's a nice way to show that you do care about the free software community.
No but if I want to put high-octane fuel in my Chevy, then I better still be able to repair the car.
--
Aaron Gaudio
"The fool finds ignorance all around him.
"Every man is a mob, a chain gang of idiots." - Jonathan Nolan, Memento Mori
I used to think Toshiba's were the best.
:)
Now, I'm not so sure.
Have you seen the new IBM Thinkpads? They're nice. Light. Fast. And they seem to work with linux. Mmmmm. Also, IBM is a little more open bout these types of things.
Shame on you Toshiba, you should know better. Go back to making televisions
I sent the following to the above-mentioned
input page.
On reflection, these argument points might be
useful in all such NDA cases, so here's the text.
---
Why are you stonewalling
Linux developers on IrDA?
These people want to do
driver development for you.
This saves you R&D money;
you should be glad to
cooperate. Why aren't you?
Is your chipset a really
crummy design and you're
ashamed of it? Was it
stolen and you're afraid
that anybody comparing
registers and commands will
find out?
Ostriches are fabled to
hide their heads in the
sands when threatened. This
is silly anywhere, but
ostriches who do that in
front of an advancing tidal
wave are very likely to
drown.
I won't specify,
recommend or buy Toshiba
computer equipment until
you change your position
with regard to Linux.
(signed)
i got the timeout message too after writing my msg ...so i copied my text, went back
into their form
to slashdot and hit the above link to get a fresh
session number, pasted my text into the fresh form,
and that submission was accepted.
could be that the slashdot effect is causing their
site to close sessions early, or could be that
the session timeout is really low.
And just when I start to seriously look at laptops too. Guess I'll just look @ everyone but Toshiba. Any recommendations on other laptop vendors?
They're probably annoyed at all the Linux users who demanded their EULA-given rights to refunds for obscure and buggy software they were forced to buy...
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --H.L. Mencken
In the words of Alan Cox: Owing to repeated refusal by ATI to provide any useful documentation the ATI TV card is not supported. I strongly recommend you look at non ATI card combinations if you want TV on PC .
-------
Warning: Slashdot may contain traces of nuts.
Japanese companies respond much better to respectful and well-reasoned comments, than they do to flames. If you flame, or sound threatening or belligerent, they're more likely to be turned off and will want nothing to do with you.
Any "boycott" or feedback should be phrased as Dag suggested, as in "Gee, we really like your fine Toshiba products, and it's very unfortunate that we will now be unable to buy them from you, even though we want to. Isn't there some way we could work together?"
Wasn't it a Toshiba laptop that the guy in Australia or thereabouts who started the Microsoft refund thing had?
Is Toshiba shooting itself in the other foot now?
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Try ELKS. :-p
--
This signature left intentionally blank.
Use Google to direct people to this slashdot.org article when they search for "Toshiba": http://electriclichen.c om/people/dmarti/toshiba_experiment/
I remember this as well. For a while the US gov (at least DoD) had a ban on purchasing products from Toshiba. At that time, Toshiba was selling probably the best portable PC's that were available. IIRC, Toshiba's products were not used to make US submarine props. The equipment they sold simply allowed the USSR to make props that were of a much higher precision. Combine this with the info passed on by the Walker's, and USSR's subs got a lot better.
I think it's a good idea - we'll also need a pointer from .
Another good idea is to revive the Hardware HOWTO and to make a Black list section there.
well, they could if you install it (there's MkLinux or PPC, I've heard PPC is better) but I don't know of anyone who sells Linux PowerBooks. My guess is you'd have to do it yourself. I don't know how PowerBook prices compare to similar notebooks from PC makers. If it's overpriced (like the Apple desktops) then maybe you'd want to go for a PC notebook. But if not, the PowerBooks are supposedly pretty good (never used one, myself).
cool, we've /.ed their feedback form. I'm sure that when the suits ask why their web server was shafted they'll be quite interested to see slashdot in the referer (sic) logs
martian
"There are two major products that come out of Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence."
Up to and including "Death Penalty for Treason"
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
I just bought a sony VAIO laptop... they use fairly standard HW inside their laptops, as I have yet to run into hw they use, that linux can't deal with...
(INCLUDING A SUPPORTED IrDA CHIP, i believe.. havent had a chance to test it yet.. but looking at the chip inside.. it should work)...
I highly recommend them!
BOYCOTT TOSHIBA!!
Can anyone help?
:)
I've been trying for several months to install Red Hat 5.2 on my Toshiba laptop. When I try booting from the boot disk, nothing happens - the disk buzzes for a moment, then goes silent. I've tried with different copies of the disk, and still can't get it to work - it reads disks fine in DOS. I've tried the Toshiba web sites, but they don't have any information regarding this.
Thanks...
Ford Prefect
In case you're wondering, it's a T1100 PLUS, with an 8086 processor, 640KB memory, CGA graphics, two DD floppy disk drives, and a monochrome 640x200 LCD display. Could the specifications have something to do with it?
Tedious Bloggy Stuff - hooray?
Heh, I've always called that little nub the "keyboard clitoris" myself. Hate using those now? Try it when the rubber is worn off and you're pressing on a sharp little metal post. Makes me very good at using keyboard controls now.
I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
The session seems to time out if you spend a lot of time answering the form. :)
I'd assume this is done so that they can keep replies relatively short, so they don't have to answer to huge volumes of incoming comments.
The answer is to write the actual response to them in an Xterm, or notepad or whatever, and copy/paste it into the browser when you go to the Toshiba site.
That should cure those ills.
Maybe we should point out this shortcoming of their site, and offer to exchange further support information of this nature to them in exchange for chip data on their IrDA devices..
Malk
The 11th Commandment is "Thou shalt lust after no laptop other than an IBM Thinkpad."
My i1450 is wonderful. My 355Cs (486/33) is still in service as my print server.
The blacklist is a wonderful idea. Something like this might have turned Adaptec around sooner.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
My Inspiron 3000 runs debian like a charm, thanks to RH's make a neomagic campatible video server. I don't like running RH. But those guys are really helping us all out a lot. Thanks guys.
I run X at 800x600 at 24bpp. I have a dell desktop too. I actually think my laptop is faster even though it's a 200 v. 266 on my desktop with 2/3 more memory. For some reason, the XBF_neomagic X server is seems faster too. I love it. I run debian.
I use and ATI Xpert AGP at home with Linux and it works fine (it *screams*) and I used to have an ATI Mach64 chipset card at work also with linux. My dad has an ATI Rage Pro II also with Linux. They seem to be well supported by X96Free X servers.
I just bought an IBM ThinkPad 390 from PC Connetion. It seemed to be a great value. I don't have any personal experience with it (it's in the mail somewhere) yet, but it was recommended to me. The only trouble is the integrated win-modem.
I have to give credit to IBM. I never paid attention to their products until their announcement of future Linux support for their products. So my purchase is a result of that.
~afniv
"Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
"We could be happy if the air was as pure as the beer"
~afniv
"Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
Richard von Weizs
I most certainly did respond to both IBM and Toshiba. I hope for better support from IBM and a little reflection on Toshiba's part.
~afniv
"Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
"We could be happy if the air was as pure as the beer"
~afniv
"Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
Richard von Weizs
I tried to send them a nice letter but I get the same error. Slashdot effect?
After all wasn't it a Linux user who got the whole Windows Refund Day deal started at the expense of Toshiba's relationship with MS? You think Toshiba is now eager to help out Linux users? Yeah, right.
The revolution will be mocked
I recently installed Linux (RH5.2) on a Thinkpad 560, and it went quite smoothly. It is a pretty nice machine - P133, 40 MB memory, 1 GB disk, 12" TFT screen. It runs Linux quite well, and is a nice, light machine. I think you can pick one up used for less than $1000.
No big loss to me...
I bought a toshiba a couple years ago and swore I would "never" buy one again. The thing never worked right, had bad block the 5th week I bought it and got no support from toshiba.
Buy Sony's VAIO, I just bought one, and linux supports "everything" in it. Modem, pcmcia, full screen text mode ~without~ svgatextmode(hard to find in any laptop).
Definately the best buy right now in my opinion.
Anyone wanna start a boycott Toshiba page?
Anyone who wants to get a Linux laptop should simply stop trying to waste their time with big manufacturers.
A year and a half ago I had absolutely no problems ordering a laptop with Linux, preloaded, from a small, independent computer shop. And, I'm not talking some cheap stuff, at that time, it was a top-of-the-line laptop - P-200MMX, 80MB RAM, 3 gig hard drive.
Brooktree do 2 (or more) "families" of TV card. The Bt848, Bt848a, Bt849, Bt878, Bt879 chips are variations on a theme and all work with the bttv driver. The ATI cards use the Bt819/829 chips that are very different - and presumably ATI have undocumented hardware on the cards since the specs for the Bt819/829 are available.
I think that a website that offers information on "O/S Compatibility issues" would be good psycology - This would give the impression that the products of these rogue companies are somehow defective. Perhaps even list a competitors product that do the same thing, where the competitor has been open with documentation!! This will encourage companies to be open, if they can get a mention and an opportunity to get one over on their rivals!
*--BigMan--- Time flies like an arrow.. but personally I prefer a nice glass of wine!
Hardware vendors should have to be certified penguin friendly just like cans of tuna being dolphin friendly. There would be a little penguin sticker on the front just like the windos9\d stickers I've peeled off everything I own.
I am very easy to get along with, but I don't have time to waste being nice to people who are being stupid. -Theo
Doesn't IrDA, as "THE" infrared tech organization,
have ANY information on the chipsets in the
Toshibas? Seeing as how infrared tech is supposed
to be set aloung their standards (or so I may be
misinformed), I'd think they would have access to
the information.
Question Reality, Find Your Own Truth...
Ya never know what gripe you're gonna have next.
Maybe a china-slave-labor-products.blacklist.org might be nice too.
I'm against a lot of stuff.
IIRC they sold Russia U.S. developed technology.
-matt
I bought a Transmonde Vibrant about six months ago and am very happy with it. I installed Red Hat 5.2 and it's been running great. Only problem was with the internal modem, but a cheap 56k card fixed that up.
Well, I JUST bought a Portege 3015CT. It's a sweet machine, but I intend to send a note to Toshiba letting them know that I don't appreciate this.
I even wrote a web page to support the P3010/3015 under Debian.
Oh, well, no more Toshibas for me!
Stephen
I went to the following URL and posted a comment:http://www.csd.toshiba.com/cgi-bin/WebObje cts/Toshiba.woa/-/EmailSales.wo?
Here is the comment I posted:
I won't buy or recommend Toshiba laptops to any of my customers unless I feel confident that they will work with linux.
Toshiba will not disclose any information regarding chips inside their laptops. I think that Toshiba should review this policy and reconsider, taking a more sensible approach.
Since it's impossible to write device drivers for your products, I will not recommend Toshiba or buy Toshiba laptops.
I had to do it twice because their crappy web site timed out the first time.
This sounds too much like McCarthyism to me, perhaps a better name might be linuxwinlist.org. It could contain a list of companies with their heads so far up Microsoft's backside that they can not see the future. With a statement on the page something like this:
"The following is a list of companies that have made the business decision to not provide the Linux community with even the slightest bits of information that would allow for the use of their products by said community. They have every right to make such decisions and we will fully respect those decisions. Although we can appreciate their loyalty, however misplaced it may be, to go down with the Microsoft ship, because of their apparent disregard of a certain segment of the buying public, their lack of vision in the OS arena and the fact that any innovation they may wish to develop will be subject to the dictates of Redmond WA, we would strongly suggest that everyone avoid the purchasing any of their products."
michaelrankin@netscape.net
Every day brings us one day closer to world domination.
I believe we could all start this change by filling out that sales form. You wouldn't believe what a few squaking sales-people can do to get a product changed, released, open-sourced, etc. through engineering!
You're on a new model? I'm running X on a 2150CDT. I guess it's time to try to boot off that SCSI drive theourgh the PCMCIA slot. I hope tech support can help.
I just read an article about the following:
Toshiba will not disclose any information regarding chips inside their laptops. This is a final answer (its been decided as high up as it gets) so there is nothing more we can do and we just have to accept it. I will strongly recommend that Linux users don't buy any Toshiba Equipment! "
As a devoted Linux User and developer. I have to, unfortunately, take the same stance. I have used Toshiba Laptops, Satalites and Tecras, and have always perfered them over laptops in the past. Next month I was planning on purchasing a new Toshiba Laptop myself. Be assured, I have changed my mind, and this saddens me. Toshiba has a fine product and I was looking forward to a new Toshiba Laptop. Now I am forced to look elsewhere for a better product. You may now slate me in the "Ex- Customer" department.
http://wrexallen.blogspot.com/
Woo hoo! First! (I think!)
Does the fact that no doubt people will open their boxes, look at the chips, or otherwise discover what chips are in there, and simply make the knowledge public with sidelines of anti-toshiba comments not scare toshiba?
It's not necessarily a *good* "scare tactic", but does it work?
Someone ought to let companies like this know that no matter what they do to hide things, it will get out soon enough, and no doubt with negative connotations attached for trying to hide it in the first place.
mindslip.
I accidentally inherited a couple of 56k winmodems from a friend. I don't know much about them, other than they are supposed to be cheaper because they are software-dependant rather than hardware-dependant.
Has anyone found a way to use these modems with Linux yet?
Agreed agreed.
Also: It's vitally important that positive reinforcement be given out to balance whatever pillorying we might do. Let's also showcase hardware manufacturers who are especially helpful to the linux movement.
Also, let's not lose our sense of humor. Let us chide and poke fun, not lambast and blacklist.
Let's be friendly and polite.
-bonky
Quid rides? Mutato nomine de te fabula narratur. -Horace, Satirae
Maybe Toshiba wants to avoid any more "Windows-refund-incidents". IIRC it was a Toshiba-user who sparked the whole Win-Refund-Day thing. Their reasoning might be that if you can't run Linux on their laptops, you won't be tempted to install it over the pre-installed Windows copy.
Just my two Eurocents
superblog.org: all your favourite blogs on o
Regards,
Bill Kocik, Blackspring Communications
http://www.blackspring.com
-BK
Chemical Blog
There just might be people who care. I know a few of my friends use their digital cameras and printers on the road with IrDA. Having said that I am a happy Toshiba user, using RedHat 5.2 with the 2.2.2 kernel. Not a problem for me at all of the steekin deathray thingy does not work.
Shri
Revolutionaries prevail through physical, political, or economic violence. The first two are impractical, but the latter is within our grasp. Now, I believe, is the time to strike at the corporate swine who would keep us and our upstart OS down. If Toshiba will not bow to Linux, withhold all money from them. Refuse to buy their laptops, their desktops, their consumer electronics. If Compaq, Dell, Gateway, or any of the others force you to pay the price of Redmond's OS, shun them. If 3COM or Hewlett Packard will not support our efforts to use their WinModems and WinPrinters, deny them any access to your hard-earned wages.
Strike back, comrades!
(ha ha, only serious)
The point is not don't buy 3COM's WinModems. The point don't buy ANYTHING from them - modems, hubs, NICS, whatever - unless they are willing to permit Linux support for their hardware.
This should have done nothing but make up the minds of anyone who is the market for a new laptop, IBM Thinkpads are the only way to go. I mean they are doing the best you can really expect a big company to do in terms of making sure its products are supported under linux. Anyways, yeah, screw Toshiba and there crappy notebooks, just get a thinkpad.
McCarthyism? Just because we want people to know they shouldn't buy Toshiba laptops if they want to use Linux and IRDA?
Let's get some perspective here, guys!!
McCarthyism was a cancer fouling the very fabric of our society, respecting neither law nor right, disdaining truth and the lives of those it trampled.
Not buying Toshiba laptops for Linux and IRDA (or is that IrDA, or what?) is plain, honest technical advice. Kind of like telling people not to buy Macs if they want to run Windows or not to buy Corvettes if they want to burn diesel.
If we hurt somebody's feelings over at Toshiba, we need not feel bad. It will be a natural and reasonable consequence of their own actions, not a mindless witch hunt.
And the laptops are good, which sucks even worse. Too bad the suits and the techs aren't the same people. I'm sure the techs would love to do this.
Does anyone know if this is possible? My concern is that I suspect many of the components of my Vaio are relitively proprietary (though the price/performance was fantastic). It does also have a built-in 56k modem which I suspect will be a problem, as might be the USB port, The IR port, and the power management/suspend mode stuff.
Any thoughts or ideas?
-- Join us in Chicago May 1-4th for MeshForum -- writer, historian, tech geek, entrepreneur, internet junky since '91 --
This should be a wake-up call to all of those who think that Linux is conquering the desktop. I have a Toshiba Tecra 8000 (300Mhz - 128MB) and it is far from completely supported. Most new laptops include things like Winmodems (mine uses Lucent MARS) and Cardbus, neither of which are supported completely. This should remind everyone just how far Linux still has to go.
If we want Toshiba Japan to make their decision, why are we filling in the form on Toshiba of America's site?
Toshiba's not alone.
fwiw, every couple of months for the last year or so I have made a point of taking some time to call the sales lines of DELL, Gateway, Quantex, and a few others to shop for a system with Linux preinstalled.
Of course, the only os they will sell prebundled is from microsloth. big surprise. The sales folks are nice enough, and admit that they frankly don't know why they aren't allowed to preinstall Linux. But that leads us to the point of the sales inquiry...to deliver to the OEM Sales rep the message: "No Linux- No Sale. Thanks for Your Time (click)."
Dell in particular irks me, as Mr. Dell has been going around for a year saying his company supports Linux. What a load of crap! Yeah, they'll preinstall it, IF you buy 50 (that's right, FIFTY) server boxes. But Dell won't sell a single User a preinstalled Linux desktop or laptop.
Early last year I bought a high-end inspiron from Dell through Micro's-to-Mainframes, a supplier to my Customer at the time (I am a consultant). At one point I needed some tech support, and while the Dell rep was helpful, the implication was made by Dell that I should not be running anything other than windows, and that they really didn't HAVE to help me, but they would do me some sort of favor for helping.
In all honesty the rep stayed late, beyond the end of his shift, to get me going again. I applaud the effort of going above and beyond like that, to help me out, but deeply resented Dell telling me what os to run...especially when they HAVE no robust, stable, reliable operating systems to offer to the individual buyer.
I know, I know, Dell has recently made a spate of announcements to appear to have jumped onto the Linux bandwagon, but frankly this seems disingenuous...just enough to appease Linux advocates while not alienating Redmond.
Incidentally, I run Redhat 5.2 currently on the inspiron 3000, XF86-neomagic, and it works like a champ!
I don't know if I would buy from Dell in the future, though, given the weasel-like hypocrisy I see them engaging in.
Anyway, the point is: keep up the pressure. Shop around. Don't be afraid to let these OEM's know...No Linux, No Sale!
(most Linux buyers are going to reinstall/tweak/tune the os anyway...but keeping up a little pressure on the vendors to do what they should be doing anyway...namely listening to the market....can't hurt.)
Who knows? Maybe some might listen? Maybe Dell will start telling the truth: "Yes, we are trying to have it both ways. Sure we will preinstall Linux, but not for You, Individual Customer...You are just not important enough for us to do that unless you want 50 servers. And we don't give refunds for unused windows products because we are in Microsoft's pocket"
Yeah, right. I'll start holding my breath now.
I think Toshiba and other hardware vendors will eventually see the light. When manufacturers realise their equipment has a market disadvantage because their device info is not openly available, then they will make the info available- if it means a better chance to sell iron. In the meantime I plan to keep up the pressure.
Gotta go, it's almost time to shop...
I have had more problems in getting Linux to run on my Toshiba 4025CDT than I would like to mention (although it is running now).
When I heard this I followed the link and posted tried to post a message saying that I would like
to return my laptop to toshiba for a full refund because of their decission. (I've had it for only a short period of time)
Becuase of the slashdot effect I'm guessing my posting was refused so I will be calling toshiba, not only to complain about their decission and to find out how to returnd my laptop, but also to find out why they can't provide good customer support via the web and lodge a formal complaing there.
Hmph!
I had a similar problem with IBM about two years ago... looks like complaining to them has helped a little. Maybe this is the wake up call Toshiba also needed.
-Todd Shrider
Well, my Powerbook 3400 does. As a point of fact, it runs LinuxPPC better than it runs MacOS.
I've given up on trying to keep MacOS going on my Powerbook and have moved what little of it I use off to a few Zip disks and CDs.
--
"If you can read this you are too close."
I like the idea of a blacklist, but care should be taken in looking at the ramifications.
The term blacklist is quite negative (rightly so) and therefore will probably draw more than a little attention to itself (outsiders, companies, the PRESS). If users that have not been converted see only a bunch of flames on different companies, they may shy away from our little community. If, however, they see a professional site that explains itself well, they might say to themselves "Wow, it sucks those alternative OS users are getting screwed by ______." I think I want to help them out...
Just a thought.
Absolutly! I used to work for the UK office of a Taiwanese Company, you may have heard of them "Genius" - It was necessary to use an incredible amount of tact to put over to head office in Taipei the changes in IC design that were required. There was always the temptation to lose it and basicly say outright that they were all thick and stupid and made silly mistakes etc.. etc.. but that wouldn't solve the problem.
I know the Taiwanese aren't Japanese and that the two countries aren't fond of each other either, but there is a certain part of East Asian culture which basicaly says it's pointless shouting at somebody to help you.
I happen to be thinking about buying a laptop to run Linux on at the moment. I do have a Palm III and while prior to this discussion I hadn't considered connecting it's IR device with a Laptop's it does make sense. If another manufacturer's can be made to work in this way then obviously they will have an advantage over Toshiba.
If Toshiba reckon that the Linux market is too small to release data sheets on their iRDA compared against a loss that they "could" stand to rival manufacturers knowing how their technology functions then that is their decision. It does baffle me though, as many other manufacturers seem to be targeting the domestic Japanese markets with Linux related "advances".
ok, now that we got it. What do we do with it?
www.linuxblacklist.org
toshiba has a long and colorful history of selling out to whoever waves dollars in its face -- which is why in the late 1980s toshiba was banned from all u.s. government purchases.
i have a portege 300CT. i would not have it had i known -- which means had the toshiba people told me the truth -- about the modem, which may or may not be a winmodem, but which certainly doesn't work under linux. (tech support, following the sale, suddenly decided that it *was* a winmodem, but toshiba tech support's sole purpose seems to be making the user go away.)
but they shall overplay their hand. and they will have an angry crowd uneager to extend mercy to them. good.
dep
i recently got a toshiba cds 4010 that was pre installed with windoze 98 or whatever....and i loaded linux...and it works fine!! i think it's great we are gonna boycott them b/c they don't like unix based systems, but then why does mine work so perfectly? maybe i'm just special, or ya'll are talking about something totally different.