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ESR Wants to Retire
hexix writes "ESR
wants to
retire from his job, and he is looking for someone to take over."
Eric says the stress of being away from home, having too
little quiet time, and the community's reaction to him is
burning him out.
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Marketing might disgust you, but you will wish
we had more of it when your employer puts a
Windows PC on your desk. Marketing is good.
Good marketing saves nerds from Microsoft.
Good choice, but not for the US. He simply
does not live in the right place, and he is
not able to move there. He can handle Mexico.
We have Alan Cox in the UK, I'm sure there must
be someone in France, etc.
We need someone else in the US. It might be best
to have two people, one for each side of the US.
Even though the above post *seems* like flamebait, it's actually a very good observation. USENET has had nothing but vitriol for Bill Gates since the early '90's, but somehow BG manages to scrape by. I imagine the billions help to ease his pain at being flamed on USENET.
ESR, however, is getting nada for his efforts, as far as I know. He just got dragged into an advocacy role; his real passions lie elsewhere. (He's no Ralph Nader.)
So yeah, all those flames *do* hurt him. Unless you've got someone who's making tons of money or is extraordinarily dedicated to the Cause, sooner or later all those flames have to make a fellow throw up his hands and say, "Did I ask for this?"
Basically, I understand ESR's unwillingness to be shit all over for this thankless "job" which pays no money.
And here's a FUCK YOU to the losers whose biggest achievement was being squeezed out between their mother's thighs, who insist on flaming ESR.
Hey we still have RMS, who doesn't have a family (or life for that matter). He will be a great leader of this community.
All of you idiotic children here who scream "we don't need no stinking promoters!" deserve to be burried in the grave you're digging yourselves. In 4 years you'll all be working for The Man, putting 10% in your 401k, and moaning about "The Good Old Days" when Open Source almost caught on, inbetween meetings where you try to get other departments to document or share their code. Too bad precious few of you will know how badly you bungled your revolution.
sign me, "a 23yr old corporate coder"
What an amazing piece of whiny, self-pitying tripe. It would make me happy if ESR bows out and a more mature spokesperson takes his place. His adolescent diatribes DO NOT promote Linux in the corporate world, they make the whole lot of us seem like name-calling little babys. ..., I'll be glad if you quit since you can't seem to stand any criticism.
Also, being a good coder doesn't automatically give one the "credentials" to be a spokeperson for our community.
Thanks for the Cathedral and the Bazaar, that was truly good, as for the rest
"open source" has been a term known to hackers for many years. It always meant "source code". Now if ESR was not around there probably would not be "Open Source(TM)".
Personally, I do not like Open Source(TM) because of the requirements for a program to be called "Open Source(TM)". For example, say I had Open Source program X and Open Source program Y. X is licensed under the GPL while Y has a license created by a company. While the two may be very much alike, I could not use code from X and mix with code from Y because both licenses require you to keep the original license. The source code now becomes near worthless if we plan on redistributing it.
Mac OS X is not free software (as RMS has stated). I'm not sure what Apple was thinking, but I suggest they think a little harder (and not "different" this time). Despite Mac OS X being non-free (as Linux, Apache, Netscape are free) it can still be called "Open Source". There is no way I can mix code from Mac OS X and use with the Linux kernel.
The guy who posted the link about plagerism had forgot the http:// - so here it is: take-my-job-please Eerily plagerized - is this a joke on the part of ESR?
hehe try this
take-my-job-please
I may not be qualified to post here. /.
I a linux newbie, and I just got to know esr's name yesterday, thanks to the repost of his article in
I do not understand why some people hate him so much. As a newbie, I like his articles and my
newbie friends like them too.
If you believe you could do a better job than he
have done, just go ahead and do it. Why hurt him?
What did indeed worry me was his affilation to
weapons. At least this was letting him to look
very stiupid at least in the eyes of many many
Europeans...
With lots of self-gratitude and self-importance thrown in for effect. When you don't care what anyone else thinks, this is what always happens. This was as predictable as the arrival of the first snow in Minnesota.
Uhm, sure BSD gonna go down the tubes because of "flamers" on slashdot ... tthis I have to see.
... it's down.
- If it's Linux
Its happening again.
maybe some of the people that just comments but never makes any real contributions, and whom like to see Linux succeed should start shutting up with their anti-redhat, anti-everything-that-is-not-after-my-head
bullshit
Truly concerned
Everyone but Linus should state that they aren't an official "Linux" representative, don't you agree? The press states that Linux is officially called GNU/Linux???? Well Tacoboy should send a press release stating that the official name of Linux is actually "Slashdot GNU/Linux+". It's real stupidity (and RMS is a hypocrite stating it's _official_). we should be careful in a media driven world, esp when Linus goes out and talks about no new big things in Linux developement (in that new linux mag). It is only in kernel land, but there many new things happening in user land.
ESR isn't quiting, or he would have mentioned the posts that he holds (opensource.org). He just want's some slack, but even if he gets' 99% support, that still leaves 100,000 people who will pester him. He needs to handle it, or really leave. Did Jon Postel whined like that?
from everything that's evil. Why? You'll do it because as this Linux supporter demonstrates so well, you are all more thoughtful, sensitive, giving, articulate and team-oriented than the inferior, sub-humans who built the world as it existed before Linux. Yesssiiirrreeee. Linux and free software are better because the nerds who support it are better. It's clear to all who will see it as demonstrated right here.
Should those who are not nerds laugh or cry?
Can you cite one example of a particular person using the phrase "open source" to refer to a computer source code before 1998? (That would be interesting both historically and legally.)
read the message...then re-read it. At the bottom he basically says, "if no one will take my job, then I guess I'll continue..but at least cut me a little slack..I'm working for you." This leads me to believe ESR isn't really serious about retiring, he's just sick of all the bullshit that comes with the job, and is merely venting, in his own, peculiar way. But, the guy is right...he doesn't get enough respect for all the work he does in promoting Open source. We should all think of the good ESR's dealings have brought to our community, and the recognition of open source by the wider world (corporate, non-techie) that has resulted from his writings. The Cathedral and the Bazaar has inspired many companies to release their software as OSS, benefiting not just the community, but everyone. I think we all own a great debt to ESR, being one of the main figureheads of The Movement (TM), spreading the gospel to all who would listen.
> I'm unimpressed by Apple's "open source" operating system. The "open source" parts (mach, bsd stuff) were already "open source".What's so special bout that?
... ... ?).
...). Now, commercial world won't be
This is a wrong statement.
I can guess you've neither used NeXTSTEP, nor OS
X, nor you've looked at what exactly was in the
Darwin project.
Darwin includes SoundKit, NetInfo, Hfs, DriverKit, ObjC runtime, Obj-C++ compiler
Darwin includes the modifications made on top
of free code, this isn't just a Mach+BSD distrib.
More, this is Darwin's first step. This is a
good first step, the next one should be better
indeed (DisplayPostsctipt, OpenStep
Conclusion: Darwin != Mach+BSD, Darwin>Mach+BSD.
Do you consider having a commercial OS which
you can understand and patch or extend is
such a bad thing?
IHMO, the best part of OS X is OpenStep, which
is not open source, but the OS is a good starting
point. Apple may move again as GNU STEP gets
finished.
I know other's work is allways easy and never
worth a peanuts, but please for once look
at what things really are, not what you think/want
they are.
OS X/OpenStep is great (not the greatest). Long live for NeXT.
All this to say: I think ESR has done a good
thing making Apple move. The free world is making
the commercial world evolve, this is really great.
Because now commercial products must follow
the free product's qualities (performance, openness
indefinitly able to sell bad products.
Free products could be the minimal quality for
commercial products.But this needs for the two
worlds to communicate, and create intermediate
positions, which is exactly what Apple has done
(Every thing cant be free this is a commercial
society)
Variety is the spice of life - Let hybrid live.
nuff said :)
That was a bit caustic... and a melodramatic generalisation.
Although it was rhetoric, I will answer by saying,
I suspect non-nerds will remain apathetic about what goes on in nerdworld and will do and use whatever suits them. I assure you, you won't be laughing or crying about anything that goes on here.
AndyM
Oh please. As much as ESR is a blight on humanity, please, someone, save us from his coding.
TMNN - Just say NFW.
The day might come when You are no longer efficient because the hardware-folks have succumbed to the evil M$ and are giving out no specs whatsoever and You can not use the new DVD-Ram, Wireless-LAN, Whatever with Your chosen machine. ;-)
Of course let's all hope it won't
Seems hes still full of himself huh/
been like ever since I met him and he said He was the best programmer that ever lived and that the linux community would suffer if he ever quit.
possibly he is just preparing for the inevitable when the bone problems finally overcome him.
How about john Maddog Hall for the job
One of the common threads I pick up amongst the ESR-haters is about how, at times, it seemed like ESR was more interested in promoting ESR than the community he represented.
That's an unfair assessment of his motives. Yes, at times ESR promoted ESR over the community, but that's an artifact of the way the modern media works, not evidence of wrongdoing or a loss of focus on ESR's part.
The media has the attention span of a 3 year old. The glom onto whatever's hot, focus all their attention on it, until the day when it's no longer hot - and then they go away - UNLESS you can take that initial focus and use it to build yourself up so high so that they remember you when the story of the moment has shifted elsewhere.
I drive a race car in my spare time, and typical of many small-time race teams, I manage the team and do all our PR myself. Generating media attention is a time consuming and backbreaking job. It's also a "push" technology - no matter how well you do, how fast you go, or whatever, you must push your information at them, relentlessly, to be able to generate any coverage. And as coverage is your lifeline (via the sponsors) you can never ever stop promoting yourself. A modern race car driver is very much a prostitute.
The same goes for ESR. He HAS to make himself look like a cross between the Unberhacker and the Second Coming, not because he actually _believes_ it, but because that's the only way he can grap and hold the attention of the media. I mean, who would you rather quote or interview, the Uberhacker, or some guy who occasionally writes a little code? Would you rather interview Jacques Villneuve, or Joe Schmuck who has never won a race?
That doesn't mean we don't stop watching him for the signs of starting to believe his own press (it happens) but come on. give the guy a little slack, will ya?
ATTN ERIC: You've been doing a very good job so far. There have been slip ups (a little too much promotion of the Librtanarian gun-nut thing, and what was that Obi-Wan costume on Refund Day?) but for the most part, I'm happy with you. Don't let the bastards grind you down.
Cynicism against one of your own spokespersons is the disease that can cause Open Source to FAIL.
/. was about COMMUNITY, and community is about supporting each other, not cutting each other up. so start acting like a community.
n ux.html
get healthy and constructive folks - you don't know what you've got until you lose it. i think that's the point esr's trying to make.
stop taking things for granted.
nobody's perfect, but hey, don't kick 'em while they're down -> that's a M$ tactic.
it's easy to criticize; it's a lot harder to find constructive positive comments to make. i thought
And this is the law of the wild,
As old and as true as the sky.
And the wolf who keeps it will prosper,
But the wolf who breaks it will die!
Like the wind that circles the tree trunk,
this law runneth forward and back.
The strength of the pack is the wolf,
and the strength of the wolf is the pack.
(Rudyard Kipling)
http://home.earthlink.net/~johnrpenner/socialLi
Except for the turf that the nerds imagine that they singlehandely created out of nothingness, they live in a world that was created entirely by non-nerds. Reality sucks, don't it?
And, you got a score of 4. That's real encouragement.
This is HILARIOUS! Did you just make this up by yourself? Anyway, that's the most accurate description of Linus I've ever seen.
/usr/doc/HOWTO/PostgreSQL-HOWTO
"...because of laws of science, 'open source code' system like PostgreSQL, Linux will be always much better than 'closed source code' system..."
The date of the HOWTO is July 1998, but since this is chapter 4 (and v8 of the HOWTO) I'm certain this line was there for awhile. And its not the same as "Open Source(TM)" since one is a case-sensitive trademark.
www.dejanews.com
www.dejanews.com Again
One about Caldera and OpenDOS
Okay, I'll let you search dejanews now.. there are quite a few pages left (I'm only at '97-96 dates).
Maybe he's going to apply for the Linux job at Apple.
And who exactly asked for your opinion? No-one - that one of the nice benefits of our community - everyone has a voice, if they want one, even people like yourself. ESR has done nothing but good for open source, and even if you think it has been partly for his ego, so what? Since when have hackers and big egos been news?
Despite all the recent flaming, the guy has made a big contribution, bigger than most. If all you can do is post snide comments, perhaps you should retire, too.
you are so right!!!! are you a god?
If only ESR would do as he suggests. When he began as the self-proclaimed leader of the Open Source "movement", he told us that he intended to sell the corporations on our free software by re-labelling it as open source. Instead, he's trying to sell *us* on their half-assed, proprietary, products and licenses by pretending they're open source.
If he can't or won't live up to his job description, then he should do us all a favor and quit. The work he's doing now is only dividing the hacker community.
Hey, that sounds like a good idea. But it also sounds like herding cats. Are these people being paid?
I think ESR is quite unique.
But some kind of unpaid committee that does the same thing would be even more unique. There probably needs to be a ESR type person at the top and a bunch of political groupie dead heads swirling around. Aaa it probably can't work. I think the most you would get is a bunch of ESRs all doing their own thing. Unless you could figure out how to pay people to do this somehow.
What about this idea?-: Try to solicit political donations from the Linux community and then elect somebody to take up ESR's job. Maybe elect a bunch of them. Probably also like herding cats. But perhaps if such a thing could show a clear benefit to the supporters, like Red Dwarf inspires supporters to give actual money to get more episodes... But Open Source people seem to want to get everything for free. So paying for anything is like against their religion. Also probably because they are mostly all teens. They spout much.
Nope, it all comes down to ESR is quite unique. And the OpenSource Linux community is lucky to have him. And if anyone else takes up where he leaves off it will also be a unique character who has a fire in his own, and not somebody else's, belly who will do it. Everything is all or nothing around here. With this Apple thing, Why can't it be that there is a pure pure section which is all free and everything and other sections that have grades of freeness. Hey, nature is not all or nothing. There will always be a little bit of this and a little bit of that. There will always be niches of this( pureness ) and niches of that( not so pure ). Biodiversity is stronger than this centralized all or nothing stuff. So I think that this Apple stuff should be embraced as an increase in the Biodivercity. Nothing more and nothing less.
And so what if ESR is no politician. So what if he offends some of the people some of the time. The problem with Americans is that they only elect liars. People who spout the unvarnished "as I see it" need not apply round here now boa. No we don cotton to nocount who can't lie lie lie lie lie up a storm how heaa. So git on. Go on an git. Come back when you can lie like a sombitch. Offend the least number of people, that's the ticket. offend the least number of people and you are in. And Yes of course a firey bloak like ESR is going to say a bunch of stuff that is going to rub a section the wrong way. Anybody in a public postion will do that. Saying he is acting like a kid is just saying that he is no spin doctor. No slick Willy. Hey, we no need no slick Willy politicians. Yeah he's damned if he do, and damned if he don't. There will never be a public representative who isn't hated by some section. There isn't anyone. No, Not even God. So if you are going public, you are going into the mud pile.
He's doing it for nothing, but hey, it doesn't hurt the old resume. I'll betcha. Hey, a man's got to live. Politicians are rewarded not by money but by connections. Don't muzzle the threshing ox. man. It's a proverb. That means it's time tested.
Aside, a pet gripe is people who go on talking about the Truth. Hey man, everything is just an opinion. And That's the Truth. No that's an opinion. That is my belief. I believe that everything is just a belief. And here's where I make my case. Nobody knows the truth man. If there is a God, and I believe there is one, and His/Its name is YHWH ( don't pronounce it, it's supposed to be unpronounced ) then only He knows the truth. Even in math. No beliefs in there right? No, it's all beliefs in there too. We believe that there are no hidden contradictions or paradoxes, but there is no way we can know it. It's like totally not computable. So I'm advocating a lightening up on all this Truth bizniz. I'm voting for it. And now here come the hords of common engineers saying-: Hey! It May Not Be The Truth, But I Can Get Close Enough For Practical Purposes!!!! Coming Though. Well, I guess that's more biodiversity for you. If everybody was a mathematician not much would probably get done around here. And in the same way free stuff can only benefit from the nonfree leaning more towards the free. There's no tainting going on. No it's quite the other way around. Just who is tainting who.
( But the thing that everybody seems to be neglecting here, perhaps because they all need to get a life, is that two weeks into this always away from home bit the wife was probably starting to grumbling man. And after a year she is probably saying, GET BACK HERE BUSTER OR WE IS THROUGH. Nobody mentions this no, not even once. Which seems mighty strange to me. Like his "job" is the only thing that he could possibly be motivated by. I have noticed that people hearing something seem to hone in on whatever they are interested in and forget everything else. Making strong high confidence statements about things that they can't know anything about. But hey, people will talk. I guess that's what we do, isn't it. )
Yes, people will talk, but just let them put some money down on their prognostications and pontifications. Whoa no. They will soon have their heads handed to them. They are not traders it is clear. There are no atheists in fox pits. There are no egotistical as yet unhumbled traders. Nope they are a quite humble lot. Yes, lets just see you put your money where your mouth is. Putting words into ESR's mouth. Of course you have to, you're only human, but lets just see you put your money where your mouth is. Until you are willing to commit serious assets your prognostications ain't worth the electrons they is printed on.
Nope, it all comes down to ESR is quite unique. And the OpenSource Linux community is lucky to have him. And if anyone else takes up where he leaves off it will also be a unique character who has a fire in his own, and not somebody else's, belly who will do it. Everything is all or nothing around here. With this Apple thing, Why can't it be that there is a pure pure section which is all free and everything and other sections that have grades of freeness. Hey, nature is not all or nothing. There will always be a little bit of this and a little bit of that. There will always be niches of this( pureness ) and niches of that( not so pure ). Biodiversity is stronger than this centralized all or nothing stuff. So I think that this Apple stuff should be embraced as an increase in the Biodivercity. Nothing more and nothing less.
And so what if ESR is no politician. So what if he offends some of the people some of the time. The problem with Americans is that they only elect liars. People who spout the unvarnished "as I see it" need not apply round here now boa. No we don cotton to nocount who can't lie lie lie lie lie up a storm how heaa. So git on. Go on an git. Come back when you can lie like a sombitch. Offend the least number of people, that's the ticket. offend the least number of people and you are in. And Yes of course a firey bloak like ESR is going to say a bunch of stuff that is going to rub a section the wrong way. Anybody in a public postion will do that. Saying he is acting like a kid is just saying that he is no spin doctor. No slick Willy. Hey, we no need no slick Willy politicians. Yeah he's damned if he do, and damned if he don't. There will never be a public representative who isn't hated by some section. There isn't anyone. No, Not even God. So if you are going public, you are going into the mud pile.
He's doing it for nothing, but hey, it doesn't hurt the old resume. I'll betcha. Hey, a man's got to live. Politicians are rewarded not by money but by connections. Don't muzzle the threshing ox. man. It's a proverb. That means it's time tested.
Aside, a pet gripe is people who go on talking about the Truth. Hey man, everything is just an opinion. And That's the Truth. No that's an opinion. That is my belief. I believe that everything is just a belief. And here's where I make my case. Nobody knows the truth man. If there is a God, and I believe there is one, and His/Its name is YHWH ( don't pronounce it, it's supposed to be unpronounced ) then only He knows the truth. Even in math. No beliefs in there right? No, it's all beliefs in there too. We believe that there are no hidden contradictions or paradoxes, but there is no way we can know it. It's like totally not computable. So I'm advocating a lightening up on all this Truth bizniz. I'm voting for it. And now here come the hords of common engineers saying-: Hey! It May Not Be The Truth, But I Can Get Close Enough For Practical Purposes!!!! Coming Though. Well, I guess that's more biodiversity for you. If everybody was a mathematician not much would probably get done around here. And in the same way free stuff can only benefit from the nonfree leaning more towards the free. There's no tainting going on. No it's quite the other way around. Just who is tainting who.
( But the thing that everybody seems to be neglecting here, perhaps because they all need to get a life, is that two weeks into this always away from home bit the wife was probably starting to grumbling man. And after a year she is probably saying, GET BACK HERE BUSTER OR WE IS THROUGH. Nobody mentions this no, not even once. Which seems mighty strange to me. Like his "job" is the only thing that he could possibly be motivated by. I have noticed that people hearing something seem to hone in on whatever they are interested in and forget everything else. Making strong high confidence statements about things that they can't know anything about. But hey, people will talk. I guess that's what we do, isn't it. )
Yes, people will talk, but just let them put some money down on their prognostications and pontifications. Whoa no. They will soon have their heads handed to them. They are not traders it is clear. There are no atheists in fox pits. There are no egotistical as yet unhumbled traders. Nope they are a quite humble lot. Yes, lets just see you put your money where your mouth is. Putting words into ESR's mouth. Of course you have to, you're only human, but lets just see you put your money where your mouth is. Until you are willing to commit serious assets your prognostications ain't worth the electrons they is printed on.
This is another reason why Bill Gates shuldn't
worry about Linux. There are way too many zealots in this community, and they can never
agree on ANYTHING.
I believe Linus will take the same road someday.
Why is it so bad to compromise sometime?
I second the motion.
Pity. He's not there yet, but he's matured a lot recently. He no longer smears RMS at every opportunity. He still tries to grab attention for himself, but no longer as much. He's slowly starting to grasp the ethical (and not just economical) advantages of free software. I say give him a year if he's smart, four or five if he's less smart, and he'll be a perfectly fit person to lead the community
Either way, knowing him, he won't retire. This isn't intended as just a stunt, but it'll have the same effect.
I think this is a very good idea as well.
"If the Linux "community" keeps silent, and lets the world go to hell, and everything becomes proprietary and corporations own everything but the equivalent of some hobbyists commodore64s in their basement, what will we do?"
How long have you been using Linux? Do you remember when Mylex generously gave specs for their SCSI controllers? Or when Diamond relented and began to release specs for their video cards?
I do. I also recall that these things took place before anyone used the term "Open Source". Linux was chugging along getting better and better, growing in its user base. And you know what? There was no OSI or trademark to appease the suits; there was no group of people who felt their job was to talk up Linux.
All by itself, based on its technical merit, Linux was growing. Sure, its acceptance has probably been _faster_ since guys like ESR made it their life's work to show The Suits that it wasn't just a toy for college kids, but that extra push didn't change anything but the timeframe in which we work. We get a lot from guys like BP and ESR, but this odd little community doesn't _need_ them, except as coders -- they're both pretty darn good at that.
We are winning, such as there can be said to be competition. We were winning before OSI and ESR and ABC and 123 and all the other hip TLAs that we throw around so jovially. Just write good code and the rest will take care of itself. The past 10 years is proof of that.
I'd like to ask why Linux needs to be in the mainstream. For me it was always the need for more hardware support. NDA's aren't very free software friendly. Just admit it. You people want Linux to kick Microsoft's ass. The "retirement" article even mentions Redmond. Linux doesn't need the mainstream to survive. Infact its my belief that Linux will do much better without the strive for the mainstream audience. Right now the Linux community is anything but one. If we quit pushing Linux things would get much better (look back about one year ago at the Slashdot comments). The only thing that Linux will get IMO is a loss of free software developers. Its great that we have advocates like ESR, but maybe he is advocating the death of Linux. Developers don't want to feel like their hard work is being abused by commercial companies. This will happen over time. Companies do not care about Linux, nor the community. If you have had any job in America then you would understand that companies (in America anyways) only care about one thing--money.
Anyways, lets quit advocating and get back to the community (the same one which creates a fake transparent xterm screenshot for looks--and later creates real transparent xterms. The one which created Wilber and Tux).
I agree, I've been using Linux for a year and a half only, and sometimes forget how Linux started. What made Linux so strong is the liberty of expression of it's community, but also it's good sense.
Sometimes I get the feeling that flamers think they have such a small role in the developpement of Linux that they rather flamer to get heard, since it's an easy way of getting noticed.
It's kind of like comparing Windows and Linux by saying "windows sucks".. it's an easy flame, but not a smart one. Linux rocks way more than windows can suck!
To get back to ESR, he knew how to prove that Open Source was benefic, and at the same time he was unintentionnally (at first) reprensenting a very large community. I mean, if he said stupid things, where would we be today?
Maybe we should create more documentation on how to adopt a flamer's perspective to the Linux-advocacy? (I know a HowTo exists, but not many flamers read it). I've started writing a little, but I write in french, and I'm not really good at it.
Maciej Stachowiak wrote:
Think about what his essay said - do you think you could do his job better? Free software would have probably still broken through without him at some point, but would it have done it as fast or as thoroughly as it has.
I certainly don't think I could do what ESR did better than he did it. Even though I disagree with many of the positions he took, I am surprised at how well he did what he set out to do.
Personally, I think the thought of a community this large having one spokesperson is silly. Take a closer look, and see that what might appear to the suits as one community is actually several communities with many common interests, and the idea becomes insane. I think that's why ESR started by evangelizing Open Source to business, but fell into the trap of evangelizing businesses to the various communities, it was the only way to wring something possible out of the herculean task he set out for himself. But we don't want to hear about all these corporations who want to be our friends, we just want to see more code under good licenses.
Rather than replace ESR, I think it would be best for all for him to retire back to coding, and his self-appointed position can fade quietly. If businesses want to come to us, that's fine there are plenty of people they can talk to, once they do their homework. I see no need for us to go out and attract businesses the way ESR wants us to do.
----
Open mind, insert foot.
It's time for the corporations that are benefitting from Open Source to assign some of their people (and more money) to lend Eric a hand. This would allow him to have a life and would greatly improve the corporate world's perception of Open Source software.
For those of you who think corporations are evil and ESR is the anti-christ, you're entitled to your (broken) opinions, but if it weren't for the price Eric has paid, many of us would have no hope of being able to use anything but Microsoft to get our work done. Is that what you want? Not I.
Some complain that Eric is self-promoting, but his "self" is worthy of promotion -- he doesn't sit on his ass complaining about the efforts of others, he gets results and should be commended. If you don't like what Eric's doing, do something different, something better if you can, but for God's sake, spare us the vitriol and spend your time making better software or writing documentation.
slashdot broke my sig
Ah, the comments of a name calling little baby.
ESR isn't promoting Linux, he's promoting open
source.
"You know you want me baby!" - Crow T Robot
Except I'd like to go farther and say that we coders don't need representatives. (see post "My Nomination").
This doesn't mean that we'll stop pushing ideas that we believe in.
It is not possible to represent the hacker community.
> The Mozilla Organization would not exist;
Possibly... but it's the people who write/wrote the code that make the real difference.
> We would not be getting the press we are today;
Unfortunatly this is true. Perhaps the press will ignore us now.
>Numerous products, including Apple's OS X, would be fully proprietary
I'm unimpressed by Apple's "open source" operating system. The "open source" parts (mach, bsd stuff) were already "open source". What's so special bout that?
How can one man (or one organization) represent an eclectic group hackers/coders?
It's not possible. ESR turned off all the hackers that didn't like the mixing of free software and business. Open Source turn off those who thought it was too broad, and could be abused too easily... but it struck a chord of truth with many.
I believe (or maybe I hope) that each of us... all of us coders out there... will form their own beliefs, and who is right will always be up to debate.
A person out in the field, out posing as a representative to hackers, will always have critics. Some critics are flamers/etc/etc, but most aren't... they're hackers that disagree. Disagreement is allowed. What if there isn't one true way for everything?
I'd be much happier myself if all these people (notably ESR and RMS) would stop preaching for a while and let their ideas speak for themselves. It's hard to force a revolution.
As for me, I'll still be coding. My fame pales in the light of Linus or Richard or Eric, but does that make me less of a person? Less of a hacker? I'll still be coding with my friends, in real life, and online, maybe someday with someone who's reading this... but as long as I feel that what I'm doing what is right, then fame looks less important.
To do what he's doing takes (a) a very thick skin and (b) a fairly hefty ego. This surprises you? And the "side effects" surprise you? Then you haven't stopped to think about it.
-- brandon s. allbery, sysadmin @ cmu electrical & computer engineering "Think, youth, THINK!"
Now before you start flaming, realize something. That he wants to be there and works hard at being there is not a bad thing. In fact, it's inevitable. Someone will take that position if it's open. This time it happened to be someone who has been around 'the bandwagon' for a while. It easily could have been someone who just hopped on. I know none of you would ever admit it, but I'm fairly certain most of the people reading this first heard of ESR through his 'evangelizing', not his coding. If someone else had gotten in early and started making big noise with the corps, it really wouldn't have mattered who they were as long as they sounded good and provided a focal point.
Now, I'm really not sure how tongue-in-cheek this little essay is (more than a little, I'd wager), but it does make a couple of good points. That you have to want to be in that position. And once in that position you're a huge target. So when you screw up (and you will; we're all human) the napalm will flow. It really is part of the territory. There's no doubt in my mind that ESR knows that, and is willing to live with it. No doubt he's really feeling it right now, and wanted to vent a little. No prob.
Just keep in mind that whether you like him or not, or agree with him or not, he or someone like him is going to be in that position. It's How Things Work(TM). So those of you who don't like Eric Raymond, Open Source Frontman, keep the flames coming and maybe he'll change his behavior more to your liking, or maybe he'll leave and let someone else take over. But those of you who just don't like having a frontman, IMNSHO you're wasting your time. The question isn't whether there will be someone who professes to speak for the community; the question is only who it will be.
I like the analogy of the receivers: as it happens, I have enough other things to deal with that I hadn't been paying much attention to ESR at all. I'm not the guy he's trying to reach. I have no problem with him dressing as a Jedi or whatever- I guess you could say I think he's doing a good job. :)
I'd also say that if he doesn't, somebody else will.
Eric, if you're genuinely getting stressed to the point that your life is getting unmanageable, LET IT GO. It's that simple. Nobody, and I mean nobody, is likely to step in and bail you out so long as you're still willing to be the point man and do the job. To get out of it, you have to walk away and leave it undone: only then will somebody else step up, but they can't walk a mile in your shoes until you take them off.
That's all. You _can_ keep doing all this- I personally think it's a fine thing to do, albeit not indispensible. You can also stop if you like- mind that you don't cry wolf on that too often- soothes the feelings but blows your credibility.
Hope you're a bit less stressed than I am- the things I'm confronted with are less media-driven, but they're still a lot of work to endure. Everybody I know seems to be struggling just to stay afloat- which is why I can't be too distressed at hearing that you, too, are struggling to cope with the demands of your life. Me too, man, me too. Mine may be less important, but it's still a lot of work. Perhaps it's easier if you don't think of comfort and ease as rights? I sure can't, and I'm damn grateful for the merest scraps of security, or for food that I like or the opportunity to take my cat to the vet. Maybe one day I can afford medical care for me, too.
But I digress- at least somewhat. Point is, I'm sorry your life stresses you- I don't like hecklers either- but really, it's just about doing what you can, what you believe in, and then when you can't any more, letting it go and discovering that you are not unique and that somebody or something else fills the gap, perhaps in ways you had not imagined.
You've written a qualifications brief for being ESR. There can be only one ESR. If you quit the job, no-one will ever fill quite _that_ job again- but the important stuff, at least some of it, will still get done. Consider that, before you do actually stress yourself into ill-health. If you're getting a lot of physical symptoms, take it seriously. There's no reason you should be a martyr- and a _noisy_ martyr is just annoying
It wasn't clear to me from his "resignation" letter. It seemed to me more like a somewhat backwards way of saying "if you can't do a better job than I am, stop criticizing me," rather than an absolute "i'm resigning" sort of thing. It would seem that if nobody steps up to take his place, he's planning on staying.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
But, is anyone ready to take on the responsibilities ESR has? I think he's saying, "If you want my job then come take it."; if not then let me do it the best way I can.
I may not agree with everything he says or does but I find I agree more than not. We can debate his decisions without personally impuning him.
As for ESR, I've got a word or two for you. We need someone with your experience - just don't expect us to follow blindly - we are peers not subjects. Whether or not something is Open Source or not will be decided by logical and informed debate - not by one person.
Codifex Maximus ~ In search of... a shorter sig.
Posted by OGL:
...just look at the reaction here. Can the pack of Slashdot flamers turn it off for five minutes? Apparently not. If some of you don't grow up, open source (or free software, or linux, or BSD, or whatever your interests) is gonna go right down the tubes.
-W.W.
Tons
RMS wrote GCC?
I say we should all pitch in for some sort of spokesperson-gene implant for RMS :)
Maybe these words might apply to ESR and his "farewell speech":
--
--
=8^
"Hi, my name is Anthony Michael Hall. I'm not a geek, but I'll be playing one on basic cable very soon. I'd like to talk to you about software, Open Source® software..."
Wouldn't it be perfect to have the guy who plays Gates be the OSS mouthpiece?
Disclaimer: Scatterized for your protection.
--
--
=8^
I don't think you need to have written Linux, or open source software, to promote it. The more important qualification is that you love it and want it to succeed. In many ways suits (and other users) would listen more sympathetically to someone who can say "as a 'mere user' I love this stuff and want to introduce everyone else to its beauty and power".
--
Xenu loves you!
OK, anyone who believes that the definition of the word "free" as applied to software is not solely determined by the FSF is automatically disqualified. Got it.
Sorry, BSD; all you guys will just have to go to the back of the bus. The bigots are making the rules here, and don't you forget it. Hey, Perlie! Get back! XFree, you've gotta change your name to X-Open (what? It's already been used? Then think of something else; "free" is our word!).
There, that's better. Geez, I'm getting tired of enforcing all this thought control in the name of Freedom....
Craig
I use to support a lot of what Mr. Raymond was doing, providing guidance to corporations on how to get into this groovy 'open source' stuff that was totally happening. The NPL, whose final status as a free software license, can be at least partially attributed to him (were others very involved? I can't remember). I am looking forward, in a big way, to Netscape 5.
As time has passed, however, he has felt the need to engage in more self-promoting behavior to keep his position, until he was doing as much self-promotion as actual work. I think the new Apple license is the final thing that made him lose acceptance with a lot of free software and open source advocates.
In my opinion -- and it's apparently an opinion shared by many here -- the APSL is a marketing hijink and a joke. Although Mr. Raymond supports it as Open Source (which is his right), it is very clearly not free software, since among other things it can't be used in other code, even personal changes are controlled by a central corporation, etc.
I certainly have questions about whether the job Mr. Raymond has been doing needed filled -- I use proprietary software, and I'd rather know I was using proprietary software than thinking it was free -- but more importantly, I think that if the job is going to be filled, the applicant needs to avoid being used as a marketing tool.
I'm afraid that I think that's what has become of Mr. Raymond -- a company can apparently now manage to compromise the community from which Mr. Raymond hails, with his support and belief that it is helping the community.
Here's to your ideals, Mr. Raymond, and I'm sorry we live in a world where they are compromised.
--Matthew
Anybody who wants to speak out for the hacker community (as opposed to e.g. the Linux users community) needs to be one of us. We will not respect suits, or even wannabees. I'll take one Wozniak or Cray over 10 Jobs or Gates, and I think I am not alone in this.
And the traditional way to become accepted and respected among hackers is to contribute code. If you are not a coder, you are either in larval stage (and hence not ripe for important positions) or unlikely to ever understand the hacker midset (and hence unsuited as a spokesperson for hackers).
Stephan
It's really easy to hate ESR. He's the talking head which spouts off soundbytes in every article on Linux. He's viewed as the person who decides whether software is or isn't open source. He's highly visible. But ESR has done a lot of important things. Netscape going open source can be attributed to him in part (don't forget jwz) as "The Cathedral and The Bazaar" was very influential in that decision. But that's not the only reason he's important. Go to http://metalab.unc.edu/LDP and look at the howto's. How many of those are written by ESR? Remember too that ESR hacked code (most likely he has little time for that now). How many here can say the same? ESR has had MANY accomplishments. You can hate him all you want. But the following two facts are irrevocably true: 1) ESR has contributed more to the community than most 2) ESR is fundamentally important, beyond his role as spokesperson. For those of you which claim that you didn't choose him, did you choose Linus Torvalds or Alan Cox? No. Did you choose Richard M Stallman? No. Did you in fact choose anyone? No. Open Source is not a democracy. It is some weird cross between communism and a benevolent dictatorship. Some very strange sort of social darwinism. Whatever your feelings of ESR, remember that he is important.
I'm sure gonna miss him. Good luck and Godspeed.
I think that the person who would take ESR's job be a "top notch coder" is important. The reasons are that the person:
;)
* should be respected by those they're advocating
* should have a proven track record of believing in the principles they represent, and not just be in it for the fame
* should be able to answer specific questions if visiting a company they're spreading the gospel to with authority (eg., "In my experience with that..." means more than "I'm here to promote this at all costs, regardless if it would benefit you" to the person you're speaking to)
* needs to understand the underlying concepts of software development, because open source [tm] is about software development, after all..
Beyond that, I think the programmer has more personal interest in the matters (for instance, when discussing licenses, the programmer can consider "Would I actually want go for this as a developer, or is this just hype").. Also, as a proven achiever, they are less likely to whisper to the corporate head "You can probably get away with making this less free, but you didn't hear it from me...", in order to show "fruits" of their labors.
By no means do I think only coders should be able to advocate the concept, however. I agree non-programmers can be great at reprsenting us. The problem is, if they get elevated too far, what keeps them honest? If you're highly visible, you *will* get flamed. For instance, RMS is not going to go away, and, neither are his followers, so I think we can count on anyone out making compromises in the name of Open Source [tm] will find an endless stream of opposition. I think it's far too likely for someone with no vested interest as developers to turn around spout dirty laundry over the whole thing. And, if you've got a way with words and are photogenic, a lot of people are going to listen.
Mr. Raymond never asked to be a spokesman for what he calls the open source community. Netscape cited him as an influence in their big release. He's been dragged into the public view since. I think he made the best of it very well, for himself and for the people he spoke for.
Adam
I don't think he's leaving quite yet - as his essay has alluded to quite clearly, it'll be damn hard to find a replacement.
-Stu
ESR wants to see Open Source succeed. Sure, he makes boo-boo's now and then, but it doesn't warrent the out right vitriol that this community has often spewed in his direction.
Rational debate & criticism is warrented. Conspiracy theories and personal attacks aren't.
If ESR burns out, this is going to be a huge loss for our community. Few people will have the time, patience or overall balance of perspectives that ESR has displayed over the past year.
The only people I know of that would be suitable replacement "evangelists" [besides RMS, who I view as more as an inspirational leader than an "evangelist"] would be Linus or Bruce Perens... of course, neither has the time with their work commitments.
-Stu
the impression I got was less harsh than you've painted, and in fact, I think you're being quite biased in your judgement of his essay.
ESR is saying "I am a God" ? You're viewing this with very tinted goggles, my friend. He doesn't *WANT* to be a leader - he stepped up to the plate and said "Okay, I can do this, but I don't want to do it forever." That's not the voice of a leader, that's the voice of an extrovert who wants to make a difference.
Criticizing the APSL was not what got him. The "conspiracy theories" about him being a coporate lap-dog ARE what got him. Human beings ARE irrational people. Seeing personal attacks like that WILL hurt a man.
I will agree that ESR is not perfect and Linus Torvalds (there is an S on the end of that, you know) is a wonderful example of the effectiveness of being humble. It's a rare and wonderful trait, and something the other leaders (RMS) of this movement are lacking.
-Stu
What's the whole point of open source?
To increase the amount of freely available source code, to increase personal freedom throughout the industry and to increase the rate of innovation.
*promoting* open source is a periphery activity...If it becomes our main activity, then we've become a parody of the sad "marketechture" that corporations spew out in order to sell their products.
In the world at large, RESULTS matter. In the business world it's "SHOW ME THE MONEY". In the hacker world it's "SHOW ME THE CODE". This priniciple is the decicive factor in most subjective disputes. It explains why Linus is good at running the kernel - got an idea? Show him the code.
The truly sad thing are the people who insist on moving AWAY from "technical superiority" as the end deciding factor. KDE vs. GNOME is a sad example of this (because BOTH ARE FREE - yet people continue to wage war over it). So many people are wrapped up in their own personal crusade to be noticed that they don't realize they are NOT contributing to things, they're just spinning their wheels and making lots of noise.
We have to be honest with ourselves. If you want your voice heard (beyond Slashdot's forums), you should prove your contribution to this community, either through opened code OR documentation (for those that can't code).
Show me results, not talk.
-Stu
That PR and promotion are periphery activities was exactly my point - you don't need to be an uber-hacker to do them, so why not hand off the tasks to people who aren't coders and let those who write code write code?
However, I do think that talk CAN be a result in itself. It is through talk that we got mozilla. It is through talk the we got the new Qt license. It will be through talk that I'm confident apple will change their license for the better. Talk can achieve many things, and without talk we lose direction as a whole.
The whole show me the code thing PREVENTS technical superiority from winning. Instead, it becomes a battle of celebrities - Person X has written code A bud person Y has only written code B, hence person X beats person Y. This is plain wrong, no matter how much code someone has or hasn't written in the past, it does not make them right or wrong in the present. If you want technical superiority, the only way to achieve it is through talk and technical arguments, not through relying on past code written.
And without all the talk, philosphy, and other such things you clasify as not having results, one has to wonder how the GNU project would have ever gotten started.
I'm not saying code isn't important, far from it. But code is only one aspect. Other aspects such as design, licensing, promotion, project coordination, bug reporting, etc all involve large amounts of talk in order to be sucessful.
Not to say the KDE vs GNOME flamewars are particuarly useful. But don't judge all talk on that - just like you don't judge the stability of all the code in the world on the basis of one buggy program. We need code, but we need talk just as badly.
"Now watch what you say or they'll be calling you a radical, liberal, fanatical, criminal." - Supertramp, The Logical So
Firstly, I'll state that I don't mean to sound negative about ESR, although I disagree with his views on a large number of issues, and also the way he often went about his "role" as "open source advocate", I'm sure he did what he thought was best, and life is nasty that one can't go back and try things differently to see whether other ways would have infact been better.
:)
But, assuming for the moment that we do need to have someone in the "open source advocate" role, my question is why is being a top notch coder a requirement?
I realise that some of the people involved in open source may not accept a non-coder, or even someone with only average coding ability. But why not? To me it makes perfect sense.
There are hundreds of people who can't code but would like to contribute something useful. These people DO have much to offer. They're often better public speakers, or writers, or have better people skills, or are better managers, etc, than most coders. So why should we insist that they must be a top notch coder to represent the interests of open source?
I think the best way forward is to free the people who's primary interest is in writing code from the responsibilities of these sort of "advocate" positions. There are plenty of people out there who have more time, are more willing, and are just plain better qualified to do those things. By letting the people who like to code just code, then we get more code written, which can only be a good thing.
The free software/open source message affects everyone, not just those writing the code. Computers are such a big part of modern life that to suggest only the "nerds" have any interest in their future is foolish. And what better way to reach out to the vast majority of people in the world who are not coders than to have people who are in a similar position explain what open source is about to them? Seems far more sensible than to send some computer geek, as lets face it, coders don't have a reputation amoungst the general community as someone you'd want to listen to or read about.
If a celebrity wants to write a book, they usually get a ghostwriter to assist them. If I want to build a house, I get an architect to draw up the plans. So why shouldn't the "coders of the world" who are interested in open source software be happy to have someone who's more qualified to speak on their behalf? Or do we find that concept just too threatening?
I guess I'm an exception to everything I just said above though, because I'm a programmer who'd rather be spend more time in philosophical debates and discussion, and less time coding. Though I'd never want to take on the role ESR had. But I do think the discussion that goes on in the open source world is at least as important as the code itself, and hence that's where my dislike for the idea of measuring everyone by what code they've written comes from. Each opinion starts out equal, it's up to the words the speaker uses to prove or disprove it, NOT who the speaker is.
Qualifications, Smalifications. You don't have to be qualified to be right, and being qualified doesn't prove that you're right. It can help in reaching a position where you have the knowledge to be right, though.
So in brief, I think what we should look to is a future where ESR's sucessor doesn't need to be a "hacker" like he was. In fact, I for one am hoping they're not.
"Now watch what you say or they'll be calling you a radical, liberal, fanatical, criminal." - Supertramp, The Logical So
Thanks for all the hard work.
I had the chance to listen to ESR give a three hour lecture a couple of weeks ago, and I was very impressed. Like him or hate him, he is NOT a fool. He is a smart man and has done a lot to promote good feelings between suits (gasp!) and hackers.
ESR, take all the time off that you need. The community will be fine, we always have been and always will be.
Thanks again,
-Derek
Originally, yes. Emacs came first, then gcc, then a lot of the bin utilities, such as gas, ld, ar, ls, mv, cp, find, etc. Other people have taking over most of those programs now.
SPF support for most open source mail servers can be found at libspf2.
One of the things I have seen so many times with the internet and the free software community is that sometimes the most "devastating" loses, end up being just a "short term" problem.
When the net lost ihnp4, we didn't get another major site that handled a large percentage of the email, we got a dozen less important sites that actually worked better. The transition was painful, but not fatal. The end result was a much more resilient system that had a total capacity far greater than ihnp4.
When Rich Adams stopped developing BNews, two groups of developers tried to fill the void. One worked on BNews 3.0, I forget their names. The other group developed CNews. When Henry Spencer stopped developing C-News, Rich $alz kind of replaced him with INN. It wasn't an exact replacement, but the result couldn't really be said to be worse, it was just different. Now a days, usenet is quickly being replaced by the web and things like slashdot. They aren't the same as Usenet, but I don't think they are worse.
I can think of a dozen people who fit most of the criteria that ESR spelled out, and the criteria that they don't meet would probably mean that they would just perform slightly different jobs, instead of being an exact replacement for ESR.
So, I have a great deal of hope that if ESR, RMS, Linus, Alan, Rob, et al stopped doing what they are doing, that the void they leave would be filled, sometimes with a much better system. In particular, if ESR stops doing what he is doing, I think he will be replaced by many people, all having to do a smaller job, all giving a broader range of views of the OSS community, none of them as likely to burn out. I have hope, and I have history to back up that hope.
Still, losing ESR would be a very real lose. I don't wish for him to go any more than I wish for Linus, RMS, et al to go. I think it would be very wise to think about our actions to all of these people, and for people far less famous. Why should anyone get the flames that RMS, Bruce Perens, or ESR get? They are not evil. I don't even think they are misguided. In fact, I think they are better guided than most of the rest of us.
SPF support for most open source mail servers can be found at libspf2.
The entire idea that "we" (whatever that means)
"need" an advocate is incomprehensible bollocks.
RMS put on the tin commander-of-open-source
epaulets and charged to the front of the
bandwagon to wrestle with Bruce Perens. Neither
of them have had any meaningful effect whatsoever
on any important bits of code. Since it's the
code that wins or loses at the end of the day,
rather than these guys' self-serving, amateurish
and _incredibly_ poor marketing skills, it's
just sad that anyone even has to talk about this.
Linux is not a success because some inept
low-bulb sysadmin who erroneously thinks he's
a writer slapped together an essay. gcc is not
a success due to a revulsively tacky picture of
Gates as Hitler. perl is not a success due to
some halfwit stalking around Microsoft offices
dressed up as Obi-Wan Kenobi.
Get this into your heads. Stop worshipping
incoherent bullshit artists who claim to be
leaders, and write some damn code.
Thanks to nice folks like you, we've lost a spokesperson.
People like yourselves decided to trash him for not having contributed more than fetchmail, wasn't as important as RMS, etc. etc. ad nauseum.
He wrote "The Cathedral and The Bazaar," got attention, was surprised to get *so* much attention...
and folks like yourselves started saying, "ESR, what a fuckin' loser, he doesn't deserve to be famous, what has he done..."
He helped things happen--check out www.mozilla.org, for Pete's sake. If it weren't for his essay, "The Cathedral and The Bazaar," that probably wouldn't have happened.
So, to all those folks that have berated and belittled ESR, up yours.
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
More than likely, this is a plea to stop flaming him for trying to help the community. :^P
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
As I remember, he got calls from reporters after "The Cathedral & The Bazaar" got so much attention.
Therefore, he was getting flamed for representing people that didn't ask for the representation, and didn't even ask to be the representment for the community in the first place. It was just a happy accident, as I understand it (using his influence, as it were.)
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
And that comment was mature?
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
huh i am smart and You are dumb eye noe esr personnalllly and was his Godfather and sired him too
Please, let's be a little more mature...and learn to write.
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
The senseless flames, and, indeed, they are senseless...some of the flames are, in fact, agreeing with what he said while sounding as if they disagree...either that or the posters haven't bothered to read the whola article, prove him right.
;^)
It also sounds as if he needs some downtime. Cut him some slack; like him or not, like his methods or not, he's done a lot for us.
That being said, there's no way I'm qualified for the job.
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
What I really don't want to see is a public relations committee without a figurehead. (The last thing this community needs is another committee.) I personally hope that Mr. Raymond makes a comeback, but until then, God help the poor media as it tries to understand the leanings and dynamics of today's code hackers.
I hereby nominate Cmdr Taco as spokesman. He doesn't have enough to do. No, wait. Perhaps then Jon Kat-- Oh, I can't even finish that joke. Alas. Goodbye, Mr. Raymond.
--
(sourceCode == freeSpeech)
Well, I read "the job" requirements as described by ESR, and... hey, what a coincidence! They describe ESR's resume to a tee!* In fact, I can't imagine "the job" being done by anyone with any different background whatsoever! Wow. Self-serving is as self-serving does, I suppose. But rather than just sling easy mud, perhaps we should look in earnest at what "the job" does require, now that someone says they're vacating the position. Most of what ESR laid out is still useful, though he might just as well have added: open to criticism, charismatic, and experienced with grassroots organizing/politics. But then... Anyway, I nominate Miguel de Icaza. It doesn't take CNNfn to acheive world domination, when MTV will do just as well. Here's to version 2. * Actually, I never bought that "anthropology/sociology/psychology" line. "Cathedral" wouldn't last two minutes in front of soc sci peer review.
it's obvious that what the linux community needs is a 'software god/programmer' they can worship. M$ has bill: too microsoft, bill is the 'programming-god' incarnate. His job is to communicate a clear vision of microsoft's objectives. The worshipers follow the vision. How they acheive it is left to the followers (this scenario worked wonders in WWII with a certain bad guy)
.....but we dont need an anakan s. (turns to the darkside) type
it seems we need someone who represents the forces of good to provide a clear vision and focus point to further the l*nux cause
how are u every going to fill a this gap. check out the cv, http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/projects.html ( flames,ego and rants aside, the credability and acheivement to age ratio is pretty high! )
peterrenshaw ~ Another Scrappy Startup
If you feel like it, mail the url, and where ya came from to malda@slashdot.org
Someone probably have just forgot an http:// in a URL within their comment. Try going here: http://'http://blevins. simplenet.com/take-my-job-please.html' If it works, find the comment poster. Go ahead. Hire a private detective if you need to. Then face them down. Place your right thumb on your nose with you palm facing left. Make embarassing sounds with your mouth while wiggling your fingers.
peterrenshaw ~ Another Scrappy Startup
I am not a big believer in ad hominem discussions. The merit of a position stands and falls on its own validity, not on who says it. I preface my comment with this statement, because in general I work very hard in my postings to stick to the ideas not the people behind them. But since Mr. Raymond laid down the ad hominem gauntlet in this latest letter, I have no choice to respond in kind.
/.) dare to attack his positions, then he's going to take his toys and go home.
It is true, that people relate to people more than to abstract ideas. So any political or philosophical position needs a spokesperson to have it spread and be accepted in a broader forum.
Anyone who takes on that role, must be prepared for all the aspects that go with "spokespersonhood". A good part of that is being criticized, fairly or not, not just for what you say, but how you say it and what you do. It's part of the territory. Those who are being "represented" can justifiably hold their leaders to a higher standard. For if you are going to speak in MY name (especially if I didn't choose you to do so), then you damn well better be equal or better than me, in every way. A leader should be a source of inspiration, someone people look up to, not someone who shames us by their words or actions.
Unfortunately, many, if not all leaders, become totally identified in their own minds with their ideas. They take attacks on their positions as personal attacks. It is very hard to avoid this egotistical disease.
In fact, in the world of free software, the ONLY leader who so far has managed to avoid this, and given his nature probably always will, is Linus Torvald. Nick Peterley compared him to Tom Bombadil - a man over whom the ring of power has no influence. What an apt description. Linus is in fact a holy man, an exceptional human being whose ego is just the right size.
Eric Raymond, however, isn't. It is clear from this latest diatribe that the fact that many people strongly disagreed with calling the Apple APSL as open source, got his goat. He took the attack on Apple as a personal attack on himself. I read alot of the discussions. There were lots of strong opinions, but very little that can be characterized as ad hominem attacks on Raymond as such. His reaction in this letter can only be characterized as pitiful for a man who wants to be a leader.
In this "response", Mr. Raymond has resorted to the cheapest of demagoguery. The sad part is that so many people fell into his trap. Basically, what Raymond is saying in his letter is I am a god and anybody who criticizes me is a worthless ingrate. Instead of responding to the merit of the arguments against his positions, Mr. Raymond resorts to threats and insults to silence those who disagree with him. In a fit of pique worthy of a four year old, he says that if those worthless little ingrates (presumably on
Quite frankly, I am willing to bet anyone on this list that Raymond isn't going home so fast. It is quite clear from his letter that he enjoys the "face time" (what an ugly expression) with such "luminaries" as Steve Jobs and Jeff Bezos, and all the other "perks". Well good for him. But that shouldn't stop anyone from standing up and speaking the truth when the truth needs to be said, even if that truth is uncomfortable for a man who just exposed himself to the world as being egotistical, childish and unworthy of leading an intellectual revolution as important as the free software movement.
Hey ESR,
Get off your high horse and go back to writing free software.
The "Open Sores" concept has always been more about promoting ESR then about promoting Freedom.
RMS is the man.
ESR is the spam.
The descriptions of the plane flights and talking to suits didn't give me the impression of a person enjoying it. And I also didn't get the impression he was looking for more of it. Where do you get that?
However, just like you, I do get the impression that he'd keep the job if conditions improved.
Which looks about as likely as pig flying, considering the number of people (or are they chimps at keyboards?) flaming him so far.
Remember all those /. articles you've read that had quotes from ESR? Their easy to remember because they almost always mention that Eric wrote "Cathedral and the Bazaar". Nearly everyone knows who wrote that paper.
And yet he didn't list being able to write as one of his qualifications. Even so he's already (26 comments so far), getting flamed for that list. Despite forgetting that you should be able to write too, he still gets flamed!
Fat chance finding anyone to replace him! It's hard enough to find a great coder, let alone one willing to work for free. And then ask that he be good at speaking in front of large audiences! Hehe. Suuuuuuure. No problem. Oh, and can he be creative and write really well too?
Don't think that he needs to be replaced? That's what I thought too. But we all know that just because you make a great product doesn't necessarily result in winning the game. And up until ESR retirement I'd just taken it for granted all those quotes and speaches. Now too late I understand the need. Hopefully enough of the people that flamed him before will too.
That essay was what originally convinced me that OSS is the way to go, and what pulled me into this community in the first place. Whenever I want to explain the benefits of Open Source to anyone, I just point 'em in that direction.
ESR was the first articulate spokesman for OSS that I ran across, and all I do is say thanks. If he's truly retiring, I for one will be very sad to see him go.
# Unfortunately, many, if not all leaders, become totally identified in
# their own minds with their ideas. They take attacks on their
# positions as personal attacks. It is very hard to avoid this
# egotistical disease.
#
#
# In fact, in the world of free software, the ONLY leader who
# so far has managed to avoid this, and given his nature probably always
# will, is Linus Torvald.
Nonsense. Larry Wall has been avoiding this since long before anyone heard of Linus.
I think he must either be bought out, running for office, or maybe, just maybe, bit off more than he can chew. Of course financial reasons would be embarassing too.
I wish him luck.
But I DO find that piece a bit too self-promoting for my tastes.
Maurice W. Hilarius Voice: (778) 347-9907
Holy F#$^%!!!!
That URL was there before the posting?
Wow.
Maurice W. Hilarius Voice: (778) 347-9907
If Eric continues his presnet role, he'll be like Steve Jobs in the "down phase" of Apple. Remember when the media loved Steve, and then there were a few years when everybody hated him? It's happening.
Thanks
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
Thanks
Bruce
Bruce Perens.
This kind of excrement is worth refuting...
Open Source and Free Software has come to a point where mainstream press would have noticed it. It is vital that people get in there and provide facts and refute all the FUD out there.
The Micro$hafts of the world have a large number of spin doctors that there entire job is to help solidify their position. Free Software/Open Source? Only the self-propelled, self-proclaimed, arrogant guys are willing to step forward. Thus ESR climbed to the top. I hope another as self-assured as he rises to the top.
Gordon
It's easy to feel sympathy for ESR for the grief he gets from hormone-hyped adolescents, as he describes it.
But in generalising about the source of criticism in this way, he fails to recognize and accept that there might be valid criticism out there as well.
For example, none of the reasons ESR cites as generating criticism bother me at all, yet one that he doesn't cite I find very important: his continual negativity regarding RMS, FSF, GNU and everything in that general neck of the woods.
If ESR did just as he writes in his essay and was an entirely positive embassador then I would support him totally. But I find it hard to support people whose visible strategy is to knock other well-regarded folk in the movement at every opportunity.
We don't need an either-or scene here. The success of free software and open source rests on everyone building upon everyone else's valuable efforts, ie. cooperation and not confrontation. Ambassadors need to be positive.
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
Perhaps part of the strength of the Linux/Opensource community is it's independance and it's desire to do things outside of the mainstream. Therefore once the community starts to become more mainstream it turns on itself. Witness the recent attacks on Redhat - a company which seems to be trying to do it's best for the community from everything I've seen.
This is likely the worst news I have heard this year, maybe since I started using Linux a year and a half ago. Not being blind, I can see the damage that the unyielding bad attitude towards variation can do. I try my best to not tolerate intolerance at our LUG meetings and inspire conversation. People who believe that any philosophy other then their own is wrong will only bury us. "Us" being the people who want to share the knowledge that there are many better ways than the status quo, that anyone can choose.
Choose being the key word.
The friendly press are going react negatively, and the negative press are going to rip, Linux, GNU, and open source wide open with this. Many of those people who could benefit from Linux and open source stuff and are yet unaware of it's virtues could will be further alienated.
I hope it is not to late to keep Eric, but if it is to late, perhaps we could learn somthing from this.
That treating people's varying philosophies about things like "what open source is" like they are morally wrong, will only make the rift larger. Fight that kind of ignorance like you are fighting a bloody war, and only then do we stand a chance.
Novel theory: Modern Man evolved from psychopath
>For a long time, I have been working on an idea of my own, and if (no--when, damn it!) it gets released, it would be as proprietary, closed source software. This raises the question: Am I welcome here?
*I* would say so. I believe there's a higher ratio of "everything must be free [speech]" here because that's a freedom most Windows users do not even KNOW exists!
I think you would find a ready market for your product, depending on the specifics. I run Linux [x86] as my home server and G3 as my primary desktop... and I'm perfectly willing to buy anything I like for either platform.
I don't agree 100% with ESR, RMS, or XYZZY - and why should I? They're all politicians... but hey I would rather they continue to argue intelligently than resort to US-style politics where the goal is to outspend your rival. There is NO ONE like any of these folks in the greedy Windows world.
Oh, and to the troll a few messages up who quipped "no wonder ESR wants to quit after Apple screwed him"... I say offer some proof - or simply admit you're talking out your a$$. Apple + ESR may have made for some controversy, but I haven't seen an ESR posting where he lamented his treatment by Apple. If he HAS posted something, I'll happily retract the above.
Look, folks, ESR wasn't saying he is quiting. He was saying: Look don't give me such a hard time. Someone has to do this. I'm doing you all a favor. Quit sniping and get behind me.
Well, I never voted for ESR to be the Open Source Evangelist. I'm not clear that anyone did.
Eric Raymond has convinced some "important" people to open up their source code (couldn't convince them to do this while adopting a normal Open Source Liscense and declaired the proliferating numbers of personalized liscenses to be OK, but I digress).
However, that anyone even listened to ESR (forceful though he may be) in the first place driectly resulted from the fact that the open code currently in use tends to be quite good. Simple as that.
So Eric is articulate, a shameless promoter (of self to a lesser extent, I'll admit), and even has some serious hacking credentials (whatever that may mean). But he wasn't elected, he wasn't asked, as far as I know by "Open Source Leaders" to assume the role of evangelist.
ESR decided there was a job that needed doing and he started doing it. Fine. In fact, best of luck to you ESR. It shows initiative and gumption.
However, I don't agree with all the things ESR says. I don't support all the tactics or even philosophical positions ESR posits as core elements of Open Source software. I don't think bussiness is important to the continued "success" (I'm not even clear what that term means in this context) of the Open Source Movement.
So if some people don't support ESR in the manner he feels he deserves, all I can say is that he asked for it. He decided there was a job to be done. He is doing it in a particular way that isn't exactly sensitive to the feelings and opinions of his "fellow" members of the movement. Thus, any grumbling that occurs was inevitable.
Eric's statement is really disapointing. I'm sure he has been frustrated that not everyone agree's with him. I'm sure the "community's" reaction to his work with Apple was very discouraging. But Eric made the decisions he did and took the actions he took after consulting only a very small portion of the community.
To lead a movement is tricky. Very rarely do people follow where they don't want to go. If you are a self-appointed leader, it is even more difficult. You always have to make sure you are out front of your troops but not going in a direction they won't follow.
ESR has made interesting arguments in the past. He has convinced many people that Open Source is a powerful way to develop not just cheap but good software.
Eric would do very well to back off for a while. He should figure out where a gould portion of this community stands. Eric then needs to decide if he wants to be a spokesman for the Open Source community as it stands (even just some portion of it) or try to make it into the kind of community he thinks it should be.
I believe ESR has a lot to offer if he will adopt the first approach. If he goes for the second, well we can live without him.
I don't think they're so much ignred as much as not acted upon. It is the lurkers in the shadows that hold the real power here in their voices that are so often not used. Even a short letter of thanks to a developer or a service provider (say slashdot or freshmeat) can and does make a difference. I've submitted a small peice on this and I'll try to write a few more on other topics as well maybe they'll get posted. Some things that hide in the shadows need to be brought into the light alittle more.
"We want to take over the world, but we don't want to do it tomorrow, it's OK if it's next week"-- Linus Torvalds
Slashdot Longhairs flame ESR for trying to make a point. I can see it now. Amazing that the guy has feelings. You'd almost think he was human or something.
I mean is it really to much to ask that makers of software and people doing a service to the open source community not be flamed at every turn or even thanked once in ahwile? is there so little respect that we can't atleast recognize another for their achievments and actions?
At what point does the ego take a back seat and we try to work toghether? why should an idea be a reason to totally discredit a person? I have an idea. instead of flaming try to make your points of disagreement known and if you don't have any points to say don't say anything you'll help your self in the end by showing your intelligence is above that of a 12 year old who just got a new computer.
"We want to take over the world, but we don't want to do it tomorrow, it's OK if it's next week"-- Linus Torvalds
...Bill Gates might get a sense of humor, Larry Ellison might appear in public with his fly open, and Eric Raymond might retire. OK, that's too strong....maybe cats might fly. Anyway, I wouldn't worry too much. True, the man has had a lot to do lately, taken WAY too much flack from the Linux "community" (which is beginning to resemble the Balkan situation) and is generally overtaxed on all fronts, but there's something about him that seems to tell me that he's actually ENJOYING all this, and would really want to do more, if everyone would stop throwing peanut shells at him. Point is, most of the people who enjoy flaming him can't write as clearly and entertainingly and inspiringly as he does, don't know as much about UNIX as he does, and can't program worth a lick, much less do what he does. True, he is an egomaniac and sometimes whitewashes things into unreality (reading "A Portrait of J. Random Hacker" in the Jargon file is sometimes painful in just how goody-two-shoes he makes us look -- lean, extreme-sports teetotalers who actually choose to live in tacky tract houses and crappy apartments) but gosh darn it, we don't have anyone else who could make Linux, or us, seem so appealing. (Steve Jobs, alas, is still at Apple.) So, calm down, put your eggs back in your Easter baskets, and let the dude be.
You won't regret it.
teleny, friend of cats.
"The pack of Slashdot flamers?" - i.e. anyone who didn't like ESR? A lot of the flack ESR got was well-deserved - the APSL clearly wasn't open source, for example. I'm not really all that unhappy about him retiring - all the other FS/OS leaders are known for brilliant work on FS/OS projects - RMS/(GCC, EMACS, GNU), Linus/Linux, Larry Wall/Perl, ect. ESR's biggest project was Fetchmail, and he really isn't know for that.
then again, maybe Nick is better as a critic ...
support gun control: take guns from cops
Yeah, I like Nick but he really isn't a part of the same community ESR is, not by a long shot. He's a fine columnist though.
support gun control: take guns from cops
Many of us have been banging on about the benefits of open source code (as opposed to totally free software) for some time, but it was ESR who stuck his head out, took the flak, and stuck the phrase "Open Source" on the map.
The two things to learn from ESR are: free software, if it's to be adopted more widely, needs a "mainstream" image, even if that image is a little off-beat, and secondly, you have to build that image without alienating the people you're trying to help - many of whom may want their software how it is, and don't care whether it's embraced by a wider world.
First, let me say: when you hitch the trailer to the tractor, it's the kingpin that takes the stress.
Second: who asked ESR to promote the open-source community and concept? Well, some people expressed an interest, and he stepped up to the plate. I THOUGHT THAT WAS THE FUCKING POINT! You see a need, you fill it! Hello?!? Isn't that what every reactionary "corporations suck, free software rules" author here espouses -- solving problems?
I dunno. Here I was thinking that the people who were really into free software believed that if you don't like something, do it better instead of whining. So why is it I hear nothing but whining from people who don't like what ESR is doing, instead of seeing some fuckin' action?
Foul language? Crude expressions? Yes -- there's a reason, I'm pissed at the hypocrites who stand around badmouthing ESR without doing a damn thing to improve the situation themselves.
Flames to garrett@memesis.org, slashdot can do without your 2-bit opinion of me.
Nothing worth doing is worth doing today.
I loved what ESR had to say. He summed up everything that I hate about the well-intentioned-yet counterproductive "advocacy" that is so popular these days. Note to newly-converted linux fans: sometimes you can do more damage than good with your hollering and chest-beating.
When you feel like backseat-driving, just ask yourself "What have I ever done that makes me such an authority on this subject? Why must my voice be heard?"
Remember, linux was built from the effort of hundreds of fallible, flawed humans. Many of them are justifiably proud of their accomplishments. If you hassle them, they just might take their efforts elsewhere.
I'm here today when companies like Creative Labs are just now waking up to to Linux, through the help of those TLAs you disdain. There are still a large number of mfgrs out there that aren't convinced that Linux is worth their time, and they won't be until it is more 'mainstream'.
One point that's worth remembering is that most of us are more directly exposed to ESR's self-promotion and general promotion of OSS than the people he actually targets. That's because his targets are busy reading generic trade rags such as the Wall Street Journal and are getting bombarded by far more marketing from a wider set of angles than most of us. In contrast, the average hacker gets his news from finely tuned websites and Usenet groups with appropriately configured killfiles, filters, etc..
A great many people I know in the open/free/whatever software world try to isolate themselves from the general marketing thrash 'out there', carefully filtering what they're presented with using kill files, spam blockers, staying away from TV, etc. As a result, ESR represents a much larger blip on our radar screen than the radar screens of corporations at-large. This is a natural side effect of the hackers' desire to control the relevance of information in their lives.
The result is that ESR appears as a tireless self promoter, and the hacker community ends up proving that it's not so tireless in its ability to put up with this seemingly non-hacker behavior. That's why I believe ESR comes across so strongly to everyone in the hacker community -- he's cranked the wattage so the suits can see him at all, but he's overpowering our receivers as he does it because we haven't learned when to tune him out.
Don't let ESRs high-wattage broadcasts regarding OSS overpower you. Just because you're not immersed in Microsoftia all the time doesn't mean the suits he's trying to sway aren't.
--Joe--
Program Intellivision!
I'm in agreement here. Think about it - if you don't promote yourself anywhere in life you get nowhere. No man is an island. This metaphor doesn't translate perfectly into the open source movement, but aspects of it are there.
You may be saying that it is unnecessary to do this sort of thing. You just want to be happy within yourself or "just let the the movement be and see what happens". Well, I like to help people, and if I can help future sofware developers do a better job to make programs that benefit people for whatever they want to do, then I'm going to do something about it.
Nothing gets done unless you do something. Even if you don't like the APSL or NPL, that doesn't matter. The point is something was done and ESR helped make it happen. If it was a mistake, you learn from it and move on.
If you want to keep the movement quiet, grab some source code that is out there and form the "Quiet OSS movement". Feel free to do so. Be thankful you have that freedom. I'm going to go out there and make sure everyone does.
Agreed. It is a shame that usually the ones that posses the loudest voices are the ones with the smallest brains.
When people in the Linux community start thinking before they start speaking, much more good will come of it.
Come on. The impact slashdot posters have on the future of open source is minimal. As long as open source is useful it will not "go down the tubes". If a little bit of flaming is all it takes to kill a movement, then the movement probably deserves to die.
The job of ensuring the term "Open Source"
means Jack Shit(tm)?
Job well done.
Thank goodness for RMS.
---------------------------------
"The Internet interprets censorship as damage,
I don't know why so many have flamed him so badly but I think he's been doing a great job. We have lost a good spokesman. Oh well, take your well deserved rest Eric. I hope to see some more good code from you now that you have time. .
in fact he said this when the whole 'open source' thing started; that he was extroverted enough to be the outspoken advocate he has been, but that he didn't want to do it for very long. so this shouls really come as no surprise.
If the only voices I had heard, after discovering Linux, had been RMS and the anti-IP crowd, I would have turned around and left.
It is only because of voices of reason, such as ESR, Bob Young, and Linus himself, that I am here.
I believe in property rights, including intellectual property. I believe that what a man (or woman, of course) creates belongs to him, and it is his choice whether to trade it for pay, sell it, or (in this case) give it away. I believe property rights are the foundation of a free society.
I also support Linux. I view the Linux effort as "men of good character voluntarily choosing to co-operate for mutual benefit and a better world".
Thus, I find no conflict between support for open standards, support for open source projects such as Linux, and involvement by the corporate world. There are men of good character in the corporate world, who will co-operate honestly, and enhance the Linux effort (there are also, of course, some glaring exceptions).
I can understand why ESR wrote this, because I have considered posing a similar question. For a long time, I have been working on an idea of my own, and if (no--when, damn it!) it gets released, it would be as proprietary, closed source software. This raises the question: Am I welcome here? I would rather release my software under Linux than Windows, despite the fact that, for the moment at least, there is probably more money to be made under Windows. I would consider this to be an act of support for Linux. It is disheartening to know that so many in the Linux community would loathe me for doing so.
I don't know who else can do the job that Eric is doing (I sure know it's not me). All I can do is say to Eric that his efforts are appreciated.
I think of all the people, we should look at what Martin Lopez has done for not only the Open Source Movement, but for all of humanity as well. If we are to seriously interact with the "suits" we need Lopez's mild-mannered, yet persuasive peronality as well as all of the contacts he has made over the years.
If the flamers didn't like his opinions, the obvious answer is to voice theirs. If those who _need_ a leader ("We're all individuals/I'm not!") want someone to follow and lionise instead of standing on their own intellectual feet, well, that's their choice too.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
While I disagree with some of his stances on, for instance, the APSL, and I think he is having trouble discriminating between unfair flamage and fair criticism, you can't ignore the MASSIVE contribution he's made to the culture.
Whilst his technical contributions are not insubstantial (people may scoff at fetchmail, but millions of people use it every day), it's probably his writings that have been most influential. He's edited the Jargon File, wrote Cathedral and the Bazaar and Homesteading The Noosphere (amongst many other writings). Just ONE of these, if done by anyone else, would reserve their place amongst hackerdom's Hall Of Fame.
If I can contribute a tiny fraction of what Eric has done for Free/ Open Source software, especially in bringing so many into the fold, I'll retire a contented soul.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
ESR is being rather subtle and kind in his resignation paper, but it comes across - at least to me - that much of the reason he is resigning from his community-appointed post as Senator from the Bazaar is heckling from those he represents.
As this brilliant communicator fades into the background, I ask you to ponder where the Open Source movement would be were it not for the actions of this one man. To prod your mind, I list a few likely probabilities:
Tip your hat to your departing representative. Don't try so hard to alienate the next one.
James Henstridge writes:
/. has it as a .sig] to the effect that "the best thing about Linux isn't the code itself, but the freedom to change it". I think he's absolutely right in that, and I'm not saying *he* claims to have invented the means to do that, but still: I have seen, both on the 'Net [sorry, can't recall where] and in print, stories that say Linus invented the "Free Software" idea [PC Magazine UK January 1999, p. 140 -- OK, it's ZD, but the UK edition is usually a little less clue deficient than its US sibling: "Taking its cue from founder Linus Torvalds, who concieved the idea that if everyone did the work, everyone would own it..." No, *that* was RMS' idea]. So de-emphasizing Linus the person for a bit, and emphasizing Linux' original debt to the pre-existing FSF, looked like the right thing to me. What Nick did fulfills at least the first half of that idea.)
/. and e-mailed to James.
"Someone who considers Tim O'Reilly a suitable person to represent, and accept a prize for, the 'colabrorative software movement' (apparently he uses that term because he doesn't care about the free speach aspect of free software) does not get my vote as a representative of the free software community."
No, no, it wasn't like that at all! Nick had a forum at InfoWorld on that award *before* he gave it, asking for input from us regulars on whom he should give it to; so we're partly to "blame" if you're so damn sure the result was bad. But I don't think it was -- what Nick did, and what you seem to see as total cluelessness, was a (pretty darn good, IMO) compromise. Whom should he award? Well, several of the most prominent Open Source / Free Software figures had recently been given other rewards already; selecting any particular one would have a) contributed to "over-hyping" a single person, and b) depending on whom he selected, it would probably have pissed off either the Open Source crowd, or the Free Software crowd.
(More on point a: I personally was of the opinion that the "OSS" guys had been recieving more than their fair share of the limelight, and the FSF had been unfairly ignored. The obvious compromise candidate, in the middle between RMS and ESR/BP, would of course have been Linus. But for one thing, he had been the most media-hyped of them all around New Year's "Award Edition season", and for another, he had already been given credit for what was *not* his invention: There is a Linus quote [someone here on
Well, anyway, many IWE posters suggested Nick give the award to the whole "movement", and that's what he did in the end. But then you have to have someone to recieve it "on behalf of the movement", and since the person chosen for *that* honour will inevitably come to be seen as having a little more share in the award than anybody else -- why else would he be the one to recieve it? -- you're back at problem a), and especially b) above. Who is there that isn't either a Free Software coder, or an Open Source coder, to recieve it? Obviously, somebody who isn't a coder at all! And, disregarding for the moment RMS' outburst about ORA suppressing the chances for Free Documentation, one thing that both sides pretty much agree on is that O'Reilly books are the best. For that reason, Tim O'Reilly was a very good choice for a compromise recipient of the award.
But, there was still one dilemma, and I think the way Nick solved that was pure genius: What do you *call* the movement you are awarding? That's the whole crux again, problem b) in my first paragraph. Call it the "Open Source movement", and you piss off the Free Software crowd; call it the "Free Software movement", and you piss off the Open Source crowd. But what the heck is the "collaborative software movement" -- had *you* ever heard or read the expression before?!? I hadn't, and I don't think I've seen it since, either. But it's obvious that it *means* this same movement that some of us want to call the "Open Source movement", and others want to call the "Free Software movement", isn't it?
Only without *calling* it *either* name, thus avoiding conflict and making it clear that the award goes to both sides of the movement equally. As I said, IMO that was a brilliant solution.
Christian R. Conrad
NOTE: Posted on
Christian R. Conrad
MY opinions, not my employer's - Hedengren, Finland.
Christian R. Conrad
mail me at iki.fi ; same user ID as here
Before you dismiss this message because of its length or because of the headings, or even because of the bluntness of the first paragraph, I would like you to know that this message is composed, not just written in a fit of rage
ERIC'S FAUX PAS
I concur with other readers who have inferred that Eric's harangue is an attempt to impugn and silence his critics by augmenting, through clever prose, the stature of his achievements and the relevance of his qualifications. Evidently, he has no immediate plans for abandoning the role to which he appointed himself; of that there is no doubt in my mind. So far, we had been quite willing to let him play "leader of the (moderate) hackers"; whether we thought that he did a good job or that he was merely a tolerable annoyance, most of us (I think) believed that he was not and could not be harmful. It is interesting that his papers warn of the cruel fate that will befall members of the community who bestow honors upon themselves (whether humbly or flagrantly, deservingly or otherwise) because his actions are not consistent with the wisdom he professes. I think most of us could forgive his mistakes if he were to admit to having made them, graciously and without reservation; this is what other highly visible members of the community do, and that is why they are able to remain highly visible and relevant. I am sure Eric must have written this somewhere, too; perhaps he has forgotten.
TO HAVE OR NOT TO HAVE (AN OFFICIAL SPOKESPERSON)
After the fashion instituted by Eric and other evangelists, I would like to take advantage of this latest episode in the ESR saga to propose that we consider the following questions:
The first question is almost irrelevant: whether or not we need spokespersons, we already have several; we should instead ask ourselves whether we want even one of them to be able to claim that he or she speaks on behalf of a majority of us. Indeed, an "official" spokesperson should be able to issue statements that represent the views of the community; in order for this authority to be derived from the community, he or she would have to have its confidence, unambiguously and certifiably, which would in turn require that we devise formal election (and disavowal) processes. This all seems undesirable at best and terrifying at worst; the will to a system, someone said, is a symptom of a lack of integrity. I believe that the present system, if we can call it that, in which leaders are not elected and in which every pronouncement by even the most visible individuals is subject to ruthlessly democratic scrutiny, is flexible and (thanks to the Internet) scalable; what I mean is that the present way of doing things, which looks a lot like a lack of a system, exhibits the virtues of being adaptable in real time and of providing for nearly optimum accountability by design. Or, should I say, "lack of design"?
CENSORSHIP OF THE "LEADERSHIP"
Of course, this position begs the consideration of ancillary issues like these:
Eric is correct in pointing out that a lot of people do not understand our (his?) culture, and so one could make the case that it is important to correct the misperceptions that individuals whose views do not represent those of the community might contribute to the mainstream; this includes Eric, of course. Obviously, in the model I advocate, it is impossible and undesirable for the community to arrive at, let alone issue publicly, a single position censuring an individual; one viable alternative, already in practice, is this: let every individual member be responsible and contribute, according to his belief, to the defense or downfall of the individual in question. While I cannot conceive of a likely scenario in which an individual would incur the unanimous wrath of the community, I have seen several instances of censure so brutal that the individual had to withdraw from public life, effectively censoring himself/ herself. In any case, I pity he who were the object of such a dispute; I hope Eric will recover from this round of beatings (and from the soft living to which he alludes) and return to hacking as soon as possible - if that is really his wish.
NO OFFICIAL SPOKESPERSONS
I believe that we do not need an official spokesperson, and that we already enjoy the leadership (sometimes quiet and sometimes not so quiet) of several individuals, each of whom unquestionably represents a non-negligible fraction of the community, namely:
I know that I've left out many people, even important people, out of this list; these are just the people whom I perceive as having the authority to represent a "non-negligible fraction" of the community. Allow me now to digress for a moment. Amongst these people, Larry Wall is probably the least controversial figure, and therefore most likely (in my eyes) to speak "on our behalf" without triggering flame wars and without undermining our credibility. Do I think Larry should take Eric's place? No, and I suspect you don't either. Nobody should take Larry's word as gospel (and I mean Larry's, rather than that of the Author of his story), nor is it his wish that anybody should. I also can't see Larry embarking on a tour of corporate offices preaching the excellence of our software products.
THE RETURN OF ERIC, THE HACKER
So, where was I? Ah, yes. As I was saying, there already are individuals who, without devoting their lives to the task, issue occasional pronouncements that can be construed as the voice of a significant fraction (sometimes a majority) of the community. I think this is already good enough. I would even say that this is the best we can ask for. If politicians had fulfilling lives outside the scope of politics, we might be better off. Eric is a politician, and this is one of several reasons why he is not fit to speak on my behalf; whether he speaks on behalf of somebody else is not my business, of course, but I suspect that others have reached similar conclusions. A politician thinks in fairly simple terms; he understands that his career hinges on people's willingness to take sides, perhaps more than it does on the particular beliefs of the people whose support he seeks. I reject this premise; I reject Eric's worldview. I would even suggest that we do not need to present a single "face" to the rest of the world in order to thrive; in fact, I think we stand a better chance of persuading others that our way is also valid if we present ourselves as a diverse community in which dissent is tolerated and even encouraged. Eric has a low tolerance for dissent, and this renders much of what he says suspect in the eyes of many, myself included; more importantly, it renders him, by his own definitions, a stranger to the community of which he claims to be a member. Eric has a right to expect gratitude from us; he does not, however, have the right to demand it. Perhaps Eric, the anthropologist, should tell Eric, the politician, to turn over his folders to the FSF, or SPI, or even Larry, and get reacquainted with Eric, the hacker; it is a much less glamorous life but, according to Eric, the philosopher, a much more rewarding existence. I think Eric has thrown down the gauntlet before himself, not before us; at his most lucid, he would have seen that. I want Eric, the hacker, to come back. Take it away, Eric, the Open Source leader!
While disagreement and dissension are part of any active community, it's also very important to realize that there are times when that needs to be set aside, at least for a time, to further our goals.
And of course, the goals may be different among differing factions in the community. The problem is that ad hominem attacks, childish 'me too isms', and in general spouting off without engaging the brain only diminishes us, both within our community, and especially in the viewpoint of those outside of it.
If we truly believe that linux, and by extension, the free software philosophy is a worthwhile goal, we *must* be willing to back this up with intelligent, reasoned, and mature discussion. To do otherwise only harms us.
Whether or not ESR is really resigning, we need to realize that our community is just a part of a bigger community, and we need to represent ourselves to that bigger community, both as a community itself, and through the efforts of people like ESR. Either we work for the world we want, or we get a world we don't want.
Nunc Tutus Exitus Computarus.
While ESR can be somewhat annoying at times, he has still done quite a bit. He is one of the few people that has pushed the open source movement into the mainstream, and attempted to make contacts with the corporate world. I mean, he IS open source. The question really is, who could take this over? Almost anyone who I could think of fails at least one of the qualifications set down by ESR.
It's going to take someone with guts to stick their neck out for a cause that is only popular in a relativly small circle.
Would you do it for some scoobie crack?
I've got to agree. There's not a mention of retirement in this whole essay. Reads more like, "if you think you can do all this better than me, then do it". And judging from some of the responses that I've read here, all of ESR's venom seems justified. When I first read the "resignation letter", I had a good chuckle, but after the Slashdot response, the dead seriousness underlying the humor is pretty obvious.
This is pretty sad. Really. Even if quite a few people do not agree with ESR all the time (or any of the time) it doesn't change the fact that he has helped more than harmed Open Source Software. The flames surrounding this community are killing it. We have all seen how big a difference we can make with informed discussion, but too many people involved are willing to talk without knowledge. I am willing to bet that had Eric received more "I don't agree with your ideas because 1)... 2)..." than "You suck. RMS rules! Go away!" he would be willing to fight another day for the good of this community.
As a community that needs all the help it can get, we are far too eager to exile those that try to help.
Who exactly asked you to become our self-proclaimed Joan of Arc? What gives you the idea that we must resort to the tactics of our opponents, shameless chest-beating and self-promotion, in order to get our point across? You think Bill Gates still does what he does for money? No, he does it for ego. Take your theatrics elsewhere.
I had a BSD box on my desk when Win3.1 was the 'standard', I've got a SuSE box on my desk now, and I will have whatever I bloody well choose, so long as I am efficient at what I do. Some employers understand that to keep technically proficient users, they have to keep their hands off. I just don't get tech support from I/T, which is no big loss, since they're all MCSE paper dummies.
ESR must have copied this letter.
I saw a suspiciously similar letter here over a month ago, written by Jack Stipple. The problem with Jack was (besides being a little psychotic) that he didn't understand that maybe the job that he had wasn't really needed or wanted. He had a noble goal of saving all the nuts and acorns in the world, but killing squirrels was not the best way to approach it. Maybe ESR needs to understand that expanding the marketshare of OpenSource(tm) software is a worthy goal, but not if it means compromise.
We already have two worthy replacements already in place:
Tim 0'Reilly can tout the benefits of a "Collaborative Software Development Environment".
RMS can preach the value of Freedom in software.
ESR can now take a break from trying to confuse the public on the difference between these two.
Here is the correct one:
http://blevins.simplenet.com/take-my-job.html
The link was not really plagiarism by ESR.
It was a parody by me.
(That seems to have slipped by a few people)
Bzzzt... try again!
Eric has also written a couple of useful packages for Emacs (gud, vc) and he was also responsible for ncurses in a remote past.
Information wants to be beer, or something like that.
Words of wisdom are often ignored here.
*sigh*
Well said, though.
Hexy - a strategy game for iPhone/iPod Touch
And what will you do when all hardware is proprietary because noone put pressure for open specs? What will you do when all protocols have been "embraced" and "extended"? What will you do when while all the applications that people need are out there for windows only, and you don't terribly want to learn the tax code and keep up with it to write a clone of taxcut, so that you can replace your parent's win95 with Linux? What will you do when the corporate world plows over you, because noone stood and faught.
Your position will be respectable when you can show as much work done for the world as Eric has done. Your argument will be respectable when people standing off in the corner and ignoring the rest of the world has been proven to make a better world.
They laughed at Einstein. They laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown. -- C. Sagan
If you can meet these quals, please tell me and take my job now. I want you to have it. I need someone else to take it before I burn out. Show me competence and I'll back you to the hilt. I'll hand you all my press contacts, make whatever introductions are needed, and disappear offstage so fast your head will spin.
He's going to retire when he finds a suitable replacement. That's the best date that any responsible person would give.
They laughed at Einstein. They laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown. -- C. Sagan
So when all hardware goes proprietary, and Linux will only work on old hardware, and the world demands that you live and work in it, what will you do? If you don't shape the world to your ideals, the world will shape you to it's ideals.
If the Linux "community" keeps silent, and lets the world go to hell, and everything becomes proprietary and corporations own everything but the equivalent of some hobbyists commodore64s in their basement, what will we do? If we stand silent and watch the world degenerate, what good will Linux be? If we silently give consent to information being as hidden as possible, what good will Linux be?
As Eisenhower said, "People who value their priveleges above their principles soon lose both." If we just sit the corner and do our own thing, what will we do when the hardware that we are running fails, and their are no open replacements? What will we do when everything is proprietary, and corporations own the world?
People have civic responsibility, even if they don't like to admit it. No one should have what they do belittled because "it was their duty". I'd never be ungrateful to Linus and claim that he did no more than his duty. But where would he be if he never started Linux? And if *BSD was never written?
If we don't try to leave the world a better place than we found it, we're pretty much guaranteed to leave it a worse place. Of course, given a fiarly large lifespan, like thirty or fourty years, we'll probably get to live in a good portion of the decay that we didn't prevent. If we make nothing good, what will we do when we look for good things? When the rivers are going to overflow their banks, we must shore them up, or we will drown. The corporate rivers are poised to overflow their banks. Shall we sit by minding our own business and be drowned in them?
They laughed at Einstein. They laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown. -- C. Sagan
I think he admitted in this essay that his judgement is not as sharp as it once was, given the job he has to do and the stresses that come with it.
It's true that he's responded to some things that may have been well-considered differences of opinion as personal attacks. But he's also taken a lot of flak that was just mean-spirited personal attacks, before he did anything that deserved much disagreement. I know things like that can get to wear on you - after a while it gets hard to tell the difference.
Think about what his essay said - do you think you could do his job better? Free software would have probably still broken through without him at some point, but would it have done it as fast or as thoroughly as it has.
You have *got* to be kidding. I guess it's because I read his columns for years in InfoWorld and I know his schtick. Petreley is an honest guy and not a bandwagon-jumper, but he is prone to over-reaching in search of a grabber headline and frankly, his understanding of the free software/open source world is shallow.
As anyone could tell from his talk at Linux World, I'm afraid to say . . .
-------
Bill Gates Is My Evil Twin.
You want him to go away, but he just stays longer.
You say you can't stand the song he sings, but it runs around your head and you hear it everywhere he goes.
You hated it when he switched from acoustic to electric, but you bought the albums instead of listening to them at your friend's house.
You said he was a jerk, a publicity hound, a copycat, a has-been, a never-was, but he got to perform worldwide.
You applauded when he retired and then begged him to come back in the next breath, but he was never gonna retire anyway.
------
I can't say whether ESR will be *the* troubadour of open source, but what he's done so far reminds me of this:
Come gather 'round people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You'll be drenched to the bone.
If your time to you
Is worth savin'
Then you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'.
--------
Bill Gates Is My Evil Twin.
Someone who considers Tim O'Reilly a suitable person to represent, and accept a prize for, the "colabrorative software movement" (apparently he uses that term because he doesn't care about the free speach aspect of free software) does not get my vote as a representative of the free software community.
It's hard to understand WHY people in this community are so bent on getting corporations to embrace oss, if you forgot that some of use don't want to live in a world with:
-hardware released with proprietary windoze-only drivers, and no available specs
-NT servers that we can all go to work and pull our hair out over, because that's what the boss bought
-near-monopoly in the os market from a certain empire
-winmodems
wait, that's where we live right now! Except because of the efforts of people like esr, businesses are moving the other way. Sure, free software will get better regardless, but some of us would like to also use it at WORK. And sooner, rather than later. Ok, so ESR hasn't improved linux *lately* (he did code a lot - more than most of us) but his job now, as he calls it, is important in its own way. So what if he promotes himself? Don't forget that he was instrumental in Netscape's freeing of the code.
And if you, for whatever reason, genuinely don't care whether or not companies embrace linux, please respect the fact that some of us do. Raymond isn't trying to pervert 'the cause', and, though I don't know him, I would guess that his goal is not to boost his ego.
Guys, he's one of us.
Vidi, Vici, Veni
Geez... You don't have to love everyone in the Linux/Unix/Open Source community, but you don't need to be so savage either. For a community centered around good ideals like free software and open code, there's alot of infighting, and often very nasty. I know ESR is not the only talented coder who has been turned off by all the bickering, this sort of nastiness drives alot of people away.
I don't think he has a problem with people debating the APSL with him... it's the "I think ESR was a little too eager" comment that is personal. I'd personally be offended by that. ESR is all for open discussion, but take a look at this message board. A large number of the messages ARE personal attacks...
You're right, Linux gets to the individual computer users without ESR. ESR is for the coporations. You say just like OSS become tested and true... the point is in the vast majority of the times, businessmen don't consider Linux as a real possibility. This is what ESR is about.
I must agree wholeheartedly... it's amazing the extremes people can go to.
It's really kind of tragic to see how people in the Linux community, which is centered around one of man's greatest (imho) achievments of idealism, generousity and unselfishness, can often be so petty and quarrelsome (and nasty) - not just about this but many other issues as well.
This equality of enterprise is bigger than any one individual. This movement is moving on, and like any tempest that ravages the land, it will eventually disipate into a thousand other things, but will have left its indellible mark. These marks will mostly be things that people did, like write an operating system, or herald a cause, or start a foundation, or bring a community together via a website.
We the supporters of the open source community need heroes, and we need these heroes to help carry the message to the masses. I feel like it is to our benefit to have as many heroes in the public eye as the public will have. For this I hope that as ESR redefines his role in this community we will be capable of supporting new people who can carry our message to the masses. Just like the kernel is now too big for Linus, ESR is telling us that the soapbox is too big for the current crew. From one perspective, this presents a unique and interesting problem that some of us will find inviting, and will want to attack. At risk of drawing too many parrallels with kernel development, we should be concerned that we don't present too many interfaces that won't stand the test of time. Having trusted focal points for the press and others will ensure credibility. So while ESR says that he would leave the stage I would hope that there would be a happy medium.
bnf
p.s. Anyone here realize that Microsoft's Stock has reached an inflection point, signalling that the rate of increase has stopped growing. This is generally caused by a stock reaching its market cap or by an encroaching competitor gaining market share. They know what's happening, and we've begun to see the FUD roll out with finer craftsmanship. This is the time when we should stand strong as a community and intelligently communicate our messages.
this space intentionally left blank (oops)
Despite our attempts to conquer the world, the Open Source Movement is still not quite there yet, and I think I know why.
Because everybody who represents it is ugly.
I mean, think about it. ESR? He looks like a stuntman from "Erik the Viking". Richard Stallman? Guy gives me the creeps. Linus Torvalds? The man is practically a penguin himself. And I'm not going to get into the older generation - Ken Thompson and the gang. Sheesh.
Yes, I know that none of the representatives for Microsoft and the other big corporate bullies is very good-looking either (and let's not get into Tortoiseman^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HBillG himself)... but that's compensated for by their heavy use of brain-washing subliminal propaganda.
So what I suggest (other than getting Eric a facelift) is that we get ourselves a good-looking representative. Preferrably a woman. Someone that can, in the true time-honored tradition of American business, uphold our worthy ideals of freedom, and still have every technosavvy man drooling all over her.
If we do that, I bet we can have everybody getting the cracker/hacker thing right in no time.
So what do you say? Any takers?
--
Kaufmann, Ugly Boy
[rnedal@olimpo.com.br]
P.S.: In case you haven't noticed, none of this is supposed to be serious.
To the editors: your English is as bad as your Perl. Please go back to grade school.
This is ONE way to get the Open Source community unified. Unfortunately it is far from the ideal and definitely not what I had in mind.
:(
I guarantee that this is a direct result of the flak he's been getting from the APSL. To his credit, the only part of Bruce's Open Source Definition that the APSL violates is the discrimination part, and even that's questionable given that the license is developed in the USA where export regulations are taken for granted. Other than that, the APSL does nothing else that the OSD SAYS it forbids it to do.
And there the problem starts. Bruce now says that his OSD implies that the license can never be terminated, and thus the APSL is not Open Source.
And Eric? To my knowledge he has made no rebuttal to that. Insteads he just quits because the majority agree with Bruce. RMS doesn't really count because he was talking about the stronger concept of Free Software, and to my knowledge software can be Open Source without being Free.
Maybe I'm off base on this though. Did Bruce and Eric agree on the Jinks license, which has exactly the same problem (but _lacks_ a few others that aren't necessarily Open-Source related)? I can't find anything appropriate on Dejanews about it
Glückwünsche, haben Sie Slashdot ermordet, indem Sie zum korporativen Druck beugten und Subskriptionen einlei
Jinks, Jikes, yikes!! (sorry)
After (finally) finding the OSI's response to the APSL not being Open Source, I see the difference for him, at least. In Jikes, the whole license can be cancelled if any part can possibly be the subject of infringement. In the APSL, (supposedly) only the part of the code that is directly affected by the license can be withdrawn.
Neither of which is real great. I agree that either the Open Source designation or the termination clause should be removed ASAP, or at the very minimum a clause stating what "Affected Original Code" does and does _not_ include.
Unfortunately, usually companies are advised not to (read can't) talk about infringement suits during the trial, which includes exactly what the Affected Original Code is! Big problem.
I guess all I have left to say is that, ESR's latest comments notwithstanding, I think you did the right thing by going public and saying that the APSL was not Open Source. I mean, OSI and Apple went first and claimed that it was, so that kind of opens the door for public criticism.
Glückwünsche, haben Sie Slashdot ermordet, indem Sie zum korporativen Druck beugten und Subskriptionen einlei
I couldn't agree more. Mean old hippy longhairs! Now you've gone and made ESR's eyes wet with crocodile tears. Can't a man try and paint his own thinly veiled ideologies on the works of others without their taking offense? He was only trying to help, the poor thing. If you don't like his bazzar, then you can just leave, and if you give him any crap on the way out the door, I hope he knocks you upside the head with a little bit of the old Second Ammendment, if you get my drift. And don't give me any of this crap about how people were all working on collaborative development projects long before ESR came along and planted his trademark in it and started misrepresenting ideas at it, you pansy liberals; ideas originally expressed in more scholarly works such as Robert Nozick's Anarchy, State, and Utopia. And just because you might think that his socio-economic philosophy is ill conceived doesn't mean you should bite his head off for trying to make a point on your behalf. He is only human and just because you might think he is full of #@%! doesn't mean you shouldn't thank him for trying to help you out, ungrateful pinko scum. Some of us actually agree with the man so if you don't like it, you can just leave it! You're refusal to agree with us is tearing this family apart and I won't stand for it any longer. Your father loves you, don't you realize that? Now you'd best just sit down at this table and try to pretend like you're actually part of this family or I'm going to disown you! I swear I will!
I do hope that Eric stays on, and that the buttwipes who've been ragging on him shutup. But if he leaves, I have two nominations. They might not meet every one of Eric's qualifications, but I think they'd do a great job.
Larry Wall would be my first choice (highly respected in hackerdom), closely followed by Mark Andreessen (highly respected in corporatedom).
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
That's his point and he proves it well. But he couldn't possibly expect people not to argue with him when they think he's made a mistake (APSL).
Why would anyone not express what they think only because ESR's feelings will get hurt? He's not a little child after all. He's a carate blackbelt!
... Slashdot isn't mankind. Yes, the flamers make it seem like we have a fractured community, but this is not representative of the vast majority. Personally, I know 9 people who use Linux regularly, including myself. Of them, only two or three of us read slashdot regularly and I'm the only one who ever posts anything. And even on slashdot, most posts aren't flames.
Obviously ESR receives alot of flames from the vocal minority and that can get depressing - a long time ago I did work for an advocacy group (nothing to do with computers) and we got flamed alot from people on our own side who didn't always agree with the way we did things, but in the end we were good for our cause. ESR is feeling the stress of this and he knew he would get it. Sure, it would be nice if everyone would disagree in a constructive, civil manner, but that just isn't the case and sometimes people will get burned out.
To be sure, corporate mindsets will have to change in order to accept Linux and OSS, but ultimately, if the business world accepts OSS and Linux, it will be because it will have been a good decision from a business perspective, I doubt it will be stopped by a handful of vocal flamers who don't want it to happen. There has been no shortage of people flaming Windows over the years yet it has been accepted by the corporate world.
If you still really want to read the article (and I wouldnt waste my time if I were you) try the actual correct link: http://blevins.simplenet.com/t ake-my-job-please.html
"I think the mistake a lot of us make is thinking the state-appointed shrink is our friend." --Jack Handey
After reading the article I think the story was off the mark a bit. ESR's point was probably not to imply that he was retiring. His point (at least it seems this way to me) was really to imply that he likes what he's doing, but he's sick of the backstabbing and wants people to think about what he's doing for the community. In other words, it's the typical "okay, so you don't like my political views, where are *your* credentials" speech. Except it's not really a speech, it's a Web page. (hopefully that was clear enough)
-- Shawn K. Quinn
man it makes me feel bad to read reports like that (recent article: Take my job, ... Then once we have gatherd all these items, using our main 'tool',
please!).
Sometimes i feel like the best thing this community has to offer, is also gonna
be its downfall. In a way it represents the way whole of humanity is structured.
We learn how to get a great new tool, be it fire, nuclear power, or be it linux,
then once we have mastered this tool, harnased its power, or some of it, we use
it to burn our selves. We kill millions of people, just to see how well this new
bomb can go boom. Now sometimes it seems like the same thing is happening to the
linux comunity, we have a great tool, something that can revolutionise the way
we see the world, the real and virtual, the way we deal with econimic issues,
and more
our voices and opionions, we again, as a human race, not just hackers, use it to
burn our selves.
I just wanted to let you know i feel for you, and want to express my deepest
apoligies, for my self, and other fellow coders, who have just a little more
social skill then a chimpansee...
Hope you'll hang in there for now, till we can have this situation sorted out,
and again, may the power, and source be with you my friend...
-- Chris Chabot
"I dont suffer from insanity, i enjoy every minute of it!"
(And other musings)
The Linux kernel is indisputably Linus' project, to which uncountable talented folks have contributed. From a leadership standpoint, Linus "owns" the codebase. Therefore, his position as a person of prominence is fairly natural.
ESR is, um, well, er... he talks about stuff. He volunteered to be a person who talks about stuff, and since that's a dirty job (which he more than alludes to) he deserves respect. But does he have to do this work? No. Does he "represent" anyone or anything? No, not really.
The problem here is that the Hacker Community overlaps with the Linux Community, but they are not equivalent. The "Open Source" and "Free Software" communities overlap even more tightly with the Linux Community, but again are not the same.
When people talk about ESR representing "Us," which "Us" is that? Open Source? The Hacker Community?
I raise these questions because I think they're valid -- not as attacks against Mr. Raymond. I'm glad of what he's doing, if I don't necessarily agree with every word he speaks. I certainly don't want to undertake the body of work he has already completed, but I do want to put it in a certain context. Nor do I begrudge him time with his family, away from the harsh spotlight.
I'd like to remind both critics and supporters (and everyone in between) of ESR that unlike Linus, whose celebrity grew naturally around him, that Mr. Raymond's prominence and value as an authority and speaker is something he has had to work very hard for of itself.
Let's see you do a better job.
C'mon.
I don't hear a clamor of volunteers.
No wonder the guy is talking about throwing in the towel. I would too if I had to listen to this crap day in and day out.
Pretend there is some witty statement here.
I fail to see why this post does not have a positive score. Is there a bias against people that choose to post as "Anonymous Coward"
>Did you just make this up by yourself?
;) Of course we have a sacred kernel instead of a sacred gourd...
Guilty - it just seemed to fit
Why do people insist on bringing religion into everything. In my opinion, FWIW, Linus Torvalds is more like Brian (from "The Life of..."). A bunch of people who just *have* to have someone to worship have latched onto him.
;)
News flash : Linus is a hacker, guys, not a messiah.
As for ESR, he's doing a PR job and as such says PR-man type things, one of which is to insist that it's a dirty job but someone's got to do it. Take with a grain of salt, but I think there's some truth in his complaint, and I know that if I was in his shoes I'd want to get back to coding as soon as possible.
(I'm tempted to add that if you want to look for someone with a messiah complex you're more likely to find them in the FSF, but that would just be flame bait
IMHO, I think that ESR's 'replacement' should not be a coder. If the goal is, in fact, to push OSS and Linux into the mainstream, a 'business' person is needed. Perhaps someone like Steve Jobs in the early days.
The hackers have been reached. They've been brought on board. It's time to stop preaching to the choir, it's time to preach to the unwashed masses:) But to do that, it's going to take a little more respect than a bunch of unwashed, GenX/GenY hackers. To convert, we need someone in a nice suit, who can speak and write well, and probably someone with at least a few gray hairs.
Lee Iacocca maybe?
-George
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
And therein lies my problem with ESR.
I realise a lot of people disagree with me on this one, but to me it's the Free that counts. Not Open Source. Not a few scraps of source from Apple, but Free.
It will get there in the end. Free software had been making slow but steady progress for well more than a decade before ESR burst onto the scene. And now, things have moved fast. We've got all sorts of commercial development on Linux. We've got some companies even giving us scraps of source to play with.
I still believe that complete freedom will triumph. But has ESR helped in that? I don't think so.
Note that that's not a complaint about ESR personally - he wants "software that doesn't suck". He's gone a long way in that direction. But he seems to assume that his message is the "hacker's message", and that anyone who disagrees is an immature troublemaker. He's wrong.
I think you miss the point somewhat.
ESR never represented me. He didn't express my views. He wasn't elected in a democratic process. He saw what he thought was a need, and he filled it.
For that, he deserves praise. That is the spirit of Free software.
However, I believe in "hard line" Free software. Not Open Source. Not collecting scraps from Netscape's and Apple's tables.
ESR doesn't represent my views. The Free Software Foundation represents my views. RMS represents my views.
FWIW, that doesn't mean I'm in favour of flaming ESR. He did what he thought was best, and I take my hat off to him for that. But I'm not going to fall into line behind someone I disagree with.
I don't have anything against ESR but I sincerely hope means what he says, I hope he actively pursues the search for his replacement then fully supports that replacement when the time comes. The cynical side of me however suspects that he's just saying this to consolidate and re-affirm his support base. Note that he didn't give any dates for retirement, nor did he outline the process of retiring (eg; a formall press release will go out Monday morning).
I don't need to read it again, I saw the "waiting for a replacement" part the first time. My point is that he doesn't give any dates at all. The article isn't specific or definite, for example he doesn't say that he will now refuse future Linux speaking engagements. It simply doesn't read like a letter of resignation. I think his true goal may be to get the community to publicly tell him not to retire, time will tell
Perhaps I have been living in my own hole of the earth a little to long. I have been using linux for a good while now I got on right as 2.0.0 was out and that was a huge thing. I'm not yelling at anyone or saying anything bad about a person. Butt free software has found its way to me largely without any help from eric raymond. I didnt even know who he was before today. Now Im reading all these semi-flames and all about ESR A friend of mine who has been interested and using Free software before most of us could pronounce computer introduced me to the *nix world. So my conclusion is. Sooner or later this would have happened? Perhaps without the aggresive domineering attitude that I'm seeing portrayed more and more. That is not cool. Best thing for linux and free software to make its way into corporate america is to be a time tested and proven tool for corporations not something that they heard about yesterday and are trying to use the next. Sure technology changes on a daily basis and the world seems to move at a amazing pace. But there is a point when things need to be looked at carefully and things need to slow down. Now linux is on a radical and unalterable course IMO. The linux society is in a lot less control now of where linux goes. Now that its been dumped into the lap of corporate america by aggresive persons such as ESR. This may not be the worst for OSS and all that. But I dont guess its the best either..
My two cents.
Right or Wrong all people think differently thus have different opinons.
Regardless of the worthiness of the task, speaking for people who didn't ask you to speak for them is bound to generate some resentment.
Did anyone else find the ad hominem attacks on his critics a little disturbing?
heh... you've made some kind of (bad) assumption that "nerds" are only relegated to the computer industry.
"they live in a world that was created entirely by non-nerds" -- ?? excuse me? hello? you might want to pull your head out of your ass for a second so you can read this clearly.
the scientific & engineering fields are fully populated with geeks... oh, but it doesn't stop there. "we're" everywhere... we're in every field... in every profession...
who designed your house? who created your radio? who designed your Ford pick-up? GEEKS, ALL GEEKS I TELL YOU!!!!!!!!
you see, the only requirement for being a "nerd" is the desire to use your mind... which includes just about everybody except salespeople (i hate salespeople) and politicians (which includes most business people).
i'm sure you're really a cool hipster doofus, but maybe in actuality you have some kind of nerd-complex... i mean, you are reading slashdot after all ("news for nerds")... it sure would be ironic if you were the biggest geek of us all...
but i won't give you that much credit...
on a final thought, "i won't even hit you with my fist, i'll just smack the shit out of you" -- Ice T and now me...
you suck, don't cha?
Call me a newbee... You're right, two years on linux are nothing...
But there has to be a first step...
... Mine was "The Cathedral and the Bazzard".
Thanks Eric.
SoftWars : "Use the source Luke"
I think it is unfortunate that ESR doesn't seem to have gleaned any wisdom
.signatures that make him sound like a
from recent experiences and is instead whining about people giving him a
rough time. Has he ever stopped to consider that sometimes HE is the
problem and that sometimes these "critics" are RIGHT? That maybe he should
give some consideration to other people's WELL-CONSIDERED OPINIONS?
Is he so egotistical to think that everyone is just trying to knock him down
a peg. Those who are disagreeing with ESR, often on some minor point, are
usually just trying to help, and they really are trying to respect his
position and his feelings. Often, what starts out as a simple plea or
suggestion to ESR, often first submitted in private, turns into an all-out
war, because ESR never backs down, never admits he was wrong, is always
shooting from the hip, and engages in fierce, mean-spirited attacks against
anyone who disagrees with him instead of trying to reach common ground or
deciding that a diversity of opinion on a particular subject is OK. Does he
really think that every person who airs his opinion is trying to claim the
post of free software spokesman?
There really are other spokesmen for the GNU/Linux and free software causes.
We could do just fine without ESR, or with a more subdued ESR. I think
Linus, Bob Young at RedHat, the folks at Caldera and Corel, Larry Augustin,
and Nick Petreley are doing a good job promoting Linux and free software to
big business. I have to admit, I'm a big fan of RMS and I think that his
writings, opinions, and style have a definite appeal to the academic
community and people who favor personal empowerment (freedom) and
egalitarian principles, so he definitely has a role to play as spokesman.
The GNOME, Apache, and Samba guys seem to handle the press pretty well and
manage to appear at conferences. IMO, the free software community has a
good supply of articulate spokespeople.
I think ESR should slow down and stop working so hard to generate
blockbuster announcements (the Mozilla release was cool, but we and the
press are tiring of the stuff). He should work harder at building consensus
or at least avoiding conflict (most of the above mentioned spokespeople
manage to avoid conflict most of the time). He should respect "third rail"
issues like the GPL and the primary importance of FREE software, RMS, gun
ownership, and libertarianism, unless absolutely necessary. This means no
more dumb, provocative libertarian
crazed computer geek who snapped during a marathon dungeons and dragons
tournament. No more cheap shots at RMS. Eric, take a look at what happened
to Gingrich. Free software is too big now, we don't need bomb-throwing and
publicity stunts as much any more, and sometimes they are detrimental.
Eric has done quite a bit to describe the fact that his position has an overwhelming burden. But one might consider that this is a position which may be best shared.
A person for writing, a Mr. Intervew, a Mr. Presentation. There would be an increase 'bandwidth' and the net result would be much more 'scalable'.
And for the more daring, one could implement an 'open source' model for articles and such. [Practicing what we preach?] But unlike he book-in-the-day project, it should focus on quality and revising a final, well-refined product.
BTW.. I couldn't help but notice -- did Eric's message seem like a resume'?
Are your replying to my comments? Certainly none of this surprises me. I'm not sure what you're getting at.
I think ESR's note itself is an interesting comment on why he is such a controversial figure. It's a very smooth piece of writing, and it's clear from a lot of these Slashdot posts that many people haven't fully groked his piece.
You'll note that nothing he wrote makes it look particularly likely that he's going to retire anytime soon. Indeed, it seems like one of his main points is that the job he's doing is one that requires some pretty hard-to-find qualifications. And, you'll notice what his punch-line is: if you can't do it, then stop being such a mean-spiritied critic.
And this brings it back to why ESR is so controversial: he's very slick. He wants to reprimand his critics, and he does so, while slicking past most of his audience that much of his point is to reprimand his critics (Bruce, are you listening?)
Personally, I don't mind ESR too much, and I don't take him too seriously. I think he has been filling a useful function, and I think, despite his protestations, that he probably likes the self-aggrandizement that goes along with it. But that's par for the course and I for one am not complaining.
But I don't think of what he says as gospel, and I understand why he makes some people nervous.
The groupies comment was priceless.
As for the rest, self promotion or otherwise, he's filling an important position in the open source community and I really think that he's saying "It was fun while it lasted, but I've had enough".
Read through his calender and I wonder when the guy sleeps. Traveling to a city in the US one day and showing up in Tokyo the next is not easy to handle, and since he does it for free, I don't really care if the real underlying motive is his own ego.
-Restil
restil@alignment.net
Play with my webcams and lights here
Of course it sounded like a resume', he's applying for the job that he's given himself. At the begining of the essay that job is spokesperson. At the end it's Leader.
I certainly didn't ask him to represent ME, and since you ask I do do a much better job of representing myself than he does - hardly surprising really.
Do you really feel that if someone steps forwards and claims to represent "us" that I should refrain from disagreeing with him? Wouldn't that have the problem of leaving people to think that maybe he really is representing me?
What??? You must be one of these adolescents that keep criticising poor Jack. Well have you done half as much for the squirrel slaying community as he has?
How dare you express views different to his when it's your views that he's representing?
i lost a lot of respect for him after reading his egomaniacal rant, couched in plaintive wailings. i don't feel sorry for him.
sure, he has done lots of good things for the community, and sure, he has the 'cred' needed to do what he is doing. what offends me is that he isn't satisfied with a job well done, and spontaneous appreciation and thanks from the community...he is constantly reminding us how great he is (lest we forget). this is the mark of an insecure individual with an inferiority complex.
anyone who does not appreciate what he does is free to ignore him, or jump in alongside and espouse a different view. simply castigating him is unacceptable, as is unconsidered adulation.
let's not make the discussion about esr himself -- he's irrelevant -- the real issue is whether the concepts he's been talking about (some of which he has created) have staying power if there is no one person to stand up and reiterate them.
M. Erman a.k.a. AIRMAN
They are all out to get you.