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Red Hat 6.0
GnuGrendel
sent us a News.com Story about
Red Hat 6.0. Scheduled to be on shelves on May 10, it
ought to be announced on Monday. Supposedly more expensive
for the box, but still free for download (of course). Oh,
and both KDE & GNOME.
E/WindowMaker/Afterstep/FVWM seem to coexist fine. I see no reason why Gnome/KDE shouldn't too. Just as with the window managers, you can still run all the apps. Drag and drop across KDE/gnome apps will probably work, OLE probably wont.
I could do this with RH4.2, but not with 5.0 or 5.2. I had to write a program to use that TRANS.TBL file in each dir to rename all the files to long filenames under vfat, but then still any name with all caps shows up as all lower case when you mount the vfat partition unter linux. Rename it to all caps while in linux then go back to winbloz and it looks like nothing has changed. It's like there 'all caps' and then there's 'all caps' under winsucks9x/vfat and they're not one and the same. Can't redhat use the TRANS.TBL file or keep all the filenames on their CDs to ISO9660 lowest common denominator 8.3 type filenames?
We *really* need a network manager for linux.
I heard rumors of HP Openview, but nothing
yet. RedHat and CA say they are going to
port Unicenter:
http://www.redhat.com/corp/p ress/current_associates.html
Does anyone know if this is going to be
on the commercial demo disk?
-- cary (busy today!)
KDE is farther along in its development cycle, more polished, and some say it is better than GNOME. Even if it is better it is not going to become the "standard gui for all linux mainstream apps".
/. readers. Fact is that Qt is a commercial library that costs a lot of money.
Why? It is simply because of Troll Tech's license for Qt. They came out with a new license that appeased the open source zealots, and in all this hand waving and press releases it fooled most of you
The Qt license is fine if you want to develop open source apps, but if you're a commercial company you will have to pay. That seems fair, but that is going to be the death blow for KDE, I mean its lack of commercial apps. Just like Linus said, even if he charged $1 for the Linux kernel it never would of grow as it has. Same thing with Qt and KDE, for the commercial user it costs and for those willing to pay it doesn't really buy them anything they couldn't get for free from say Lesstif or GTK.
Mark my words, KDE might be great, but when that commercial avalanche of Linux apps appear KDE will be dead on arrival.
Um. The FSF is *not* phasing out the LGPL. Apparently, you haven't read anything about the name change.
And while the aforementioned author was, perhaps, confusing "commercial" with "proprietary," his point is nonetheless valid. Companies will have to pay a lot of cash to develop and distribute *proprietary* programs written with Qt. But why would anyone do that? Troll Tech hardly has the market clout to demand money for that purpose.
That's suggested list - should be accurate.
:)
The dealer is of course a bit lower than that.
(Consequently, working at Ingram, I can see all of our stocking and pricing information. We've had 6.0 in the database since April 15th and it's already backordered over 30,000 units.
Exactly what is so Win95ish about Kde? There are some
similarities but also with OS/2 (templates) and Amiga (kdelnk
files like info) and Mac. Even all windows like this and evenif
they use different toolkits. Neat ! I use Kde with Windowmaker
- you get all the features of Kde with nicer looking windows
and Wmaker menus, etc. You don't have to use the kwm window
manager with the kde filemanager and panel, etc. Windowmaker
and Blackbox have complete support for Kde, and you can use
most but all Kde features with any wm, even E.
Look, I installed a recent snapshot of Gnome last week. No,
I did not find Gnome buggy. It did not crash. However, it is
awkward (to use). E is a disaster from usabliity standpoint.
Gnome itself says, in its docs, that E is the only fully compliant
Window manager. Gnome places dictatorial demands on Window
Managers for compliance. Even icewm is not really compliant.
Gnome's arrogance is entirely undeserved, and developers
are foolish in rewarding it.
If you are using a modern wm like ice or wmaker, what does the
Gnome panel add but get in the way? There is just no reason for
anyone to use Gnome except to be politically correct, as it
duplicates what is already in most window managers and adds
little desktop functionality. However, some Gnome apps are
excellent, so I keep the libraries so I can run Gnome apps when
I want to.
Using E with themes and Gtk with themes (except the plainest)
ones eats all your cpu and brings your system to a crawl unless
you have dual P3's and 16 megs of video ram. Even then, I don't
believe you will get much smooth functionality. The whole theme
concept is flawed and is not what a desktop system should be
built around (though themes in and of themselves are not bad
and can add some personality).
People who post here do not represent "average" users who actually
prefer kde and find it fun and useful, and do not want to buy new,
expensive hardware just so they can get response from a
sluggish E/Gnome desktop when they click on a button.
Geeks trying to outdo each other to have the geekiest looking
desktops, with the obligatory transparent eterms and text-based
irc's and the gimp panel that is never used) don't have productive
desktops - but they can be politically correct and submit screenshots
to "Themes. Most computer users that Linux is trying to attract
don't care about that little cult, but this does not mean they lack artistic
taste or style. They just don't have anything to prove about
who they are in that way and have better things to do with their
lives.
Kde also has some excellent apps. So far most Gnome apps,
as opposed to panel applets, work without the gnome session with
any wm, with the libraries installed. Let's hope it stays that way
and that compatible Gnome apps which are "nice" to other
destops keep coming along with Kde apps, but far too many
apps already *only* work with the gnome libraries installed and
some go further and *only* work with the Gnome session in
progress. They could work just as will without Gnome in 90% of
cases using plain Gtk without Gnome "extras".
As a desktop system Gnome is definitely not cool. It's core
concept that a Window manager must be under a gnome
session and that apps must incorporate gnome hooks
is fundamentally flawed and dictatorial. This stifles innovation and
ultimately will cause rebellion even among developers trying
to "comply" with Gnome standards just like they were forced
to comply to get the Microsoft seal of approval. Can you say
bend over ? It will forever be the preferred desktop of people
who want to be perceived as cool among an elitist community,
but that's it. Corporations and distro packagers know this, and
some begrudgingly include Gnome to placate a small but vocal
minority of elitists. Of course RedHat will favor Gnome because
RedHat is the primary party responsible for hyping Gnome to
force the rest of the Linux community to adopt its standards,. though
they are now wisely moderating that stance some. Kde is in effect
the standard for almost all distros, though, and that has been
well-earned.
I'm not saying that Kde is the best desktop system, although in
practice it is for users who need a productive, modern Linux
desktop. Actually you don't really need either Gnome or Kde
with all their panels, dodads, and "features" - just a good
window manager and a commonly accepted Drag and
Drop protocol for all apps, something Linux lacks. However,
or the two Kde is useful and Gnome is an impediment to
productivity.
I hope that the Linux desktop continues to evolve but Gnome is definitely not it.
(Unless you are a 20 year old geek trying to impress his college buddies.)
I don't understand it. If your CDROM is broke you have three options, use another media (network drives, ftp, hard drives, etc), get a different CDROM (ebay), or live with it. How/Why is RedHat (or anyone) supposed to write software that works on broke hardware?
RPM comes with the rpm2cpio utility. Use it to convert the package to a cpio, then use cpio to uncompress it in a temp directory. Then you can manually move things to the proper locations (/usr/bin, /usr/lib, etc). There you get the ultimate control over where it is installed. Oh, and do rpm -qp file.rpm --scripts to see what needs to be done before/after un/installing.
:)
That is, if you absolutely refuse to use rpm itself.
Why do so many people complain because there are choices? Out one side of their mouth they're condeming Microsoft for restricting access users have, and only giving one possible desktop, etc. Then they bitch and moan because there are so many window managers, or desktops. The beauty of Linux is that there is so many possible roads you can take, and no one person sits back and decrees "You will use E from now on, and pay me $100 for the decision!"
Now, that said, people can chose a distribution that makes decisions for you, or sets things as their defaults, if the user doesn't want to decide right away. That being said, you are not locked into any one program (or group of programs). Once you get the hang of things and are more comfortable, format/reinstall a different distribution. And continue on learning more and more about Linux, and spreading the word.
Maybe I should write up a paper on this and set people straight... Trust me, choice is good!
Come now, we all know our product (Linux) is better than Windows. So once we get world domination, the world will be at peace. It's that combination of a superior product and world domination that we are aspiring, not merely world domination at any cost.
I tried gnome 1.0.8 or so recently as well. It's nice overally, a few things crashed here and there. I'd equate it to Beta4 or so in KDE's line. One thing that is needed is for the gnome folks to put programs together into a handful of primary packages, much like KDE, Gnomelibs, gnomecore, etc. That way you have a core set that is easy to install, severely tested for stability, takes care of all libraries in one swoop, etc. Myself, I was able to wade through the dependencies and what-not to install everything. But certainly, someone with less experience will give up before getting to the 10th package.
As to control-panel, it's tied to GTK. When you put a newer GTK on for gnome, it messes every other GTK app. So, just recompile and reinstall control-panel and it should be alright. Are the GTK folks ever going to just name the lib something like libgtk+.so.1? So we don't need to recompile every stinkin gtk app with an upgrade?
Come on, seriously. What's to stop a terrorist from already sending things strongly encrypted? It's like the hype people stir up when there's a high school shooting. Banning guns won't stop criminals/lunatics from using them.
There are bindings to many languages (Perl, Python, etc). But most importantly is not the programming languages, but the human ones. KDE's been built since very early to be readable everywhere. There are bunches and bunches of translators continually moving the applications' phrases to work well in the dozens of langauges.
Not to rag on Gnome or anything, but are there similar efforts? Do the tutorials tell you to wrap every phrase around the gettext functions?
Be sure to get an OpenLinux 2.2 as well. I caught it at Comdex this week, and the installer is very nice. It's definately something to try if people tell you, "but it's too hard to install." And the tetris game at the end is certainly nice.
The problem with them is politics get in the way. :)
:)
US today is so flakey, it's depressing. Everyone gives the highest priorities to emotions (like our #1 problem as a country, being offended -- scarey, huh?) and making sure oneself is not to blame for anything. Things like tobacco rise up, people feel the companies should be punished, despite the fact that warning have been around for ages, and people decide to go to the gas station, buy a pack, light up, etc. What'll happen if you go to politicians? Most likely they'd nod their head when you're there and forget about it the moment you leave. All it would take is one person crying on TV that simple-key encryption is vital or else your kids will be killed in a high school. There is no logic, just cry and make people feel for ya.
It is not that you can't upgrade a 'running' Redhat system w/o bringing it down (or at least a few services), I hope, but Redhat is known to be not that good on this issue. Debian tries to make upgrade-paths as smooth as possible, so that you can upgrade a production system w/o much risk of services not running for quite some time. It is *not* guaranteed, but I think the 'mean down time' is lower.
It's the same as with the 'free'-use-of-weapons law: if your forbid it, it will be used illegally. Governments forbidding exporting encryption things like ssh don't want to see that, apparently.
On the other hand, maybe the US Government doesn't want to have any encryptions things (okay, not any) exported because they feel it is American intellectual property and they don't want to share that with the rest of the world. Wasn't this the case with the PGP5 us/int versions?
Anyways, it looks like most 'western' countries are going to have strict encryption export rules (part of the Wassenaar Agreement). It is not going to be funny :(
Only if KDE/Qt gets the licensing issues fixed before the release (or freeze). If they don't it cannot be included.
You might want to consider pushing this clue into the heads of those us politics people...
I've been running RawHide for a few months now and it's been getting more and more stbale lately. I'd say it's about time to see 6.0. I do think that it may cause just much complaints as 5.0 though. Built on new glibc it'll probably breaka few programs and some people aren't gonna like it ;-)
I just hope RedHat doesn't stop releaseing new version of RawHide after 6.0 comes out.
Well, 2.1 is not compeltely compatible with 2.0. Only external symbold match. If program uses internal symbols (which it isn't supposed to) it probably won't run. Also things like dlls/shared objects used in things like xanim and real audio have to be proper version to work.
From past history, any Redhat x.0 version has always been a major source of pain in upgrading since they make lots of changes in that version.
Can't that be used to convert to/from tgz/rpm/deb?
Yep, Starbuck 5.9.7 is pretty stable, but if you want the scoop on any of the problems, you can join the starbuck mailing list (starbuck-list@redhat.com) or just check the archives at http://katz.linuxpower.org/starbuck-archive/
E is not neccesarily slow.
E is not neccesarily awkward.
It can be both, but that depends on your theme; Many are very fast; Many are efficient. Remember, "awkward" is a matter of opinion. Is it not better to have an uber-configurable wm (such as E) and have whatever look-and-feel you find least awkward?
I have a K6/2-300 with 32MB RAM and 4MB video RAM. Not a bad machine, but not that speedy either. I have some of E's fancy, expensive features enabled (transparent window dragging) and the gradiant GTK theme... Yeah, it's eye candy. But I'd rather have it available than not have the option of using it. Is it really better to have an optional GTK theme that'll slow your machine down if enabled whereis Qt (at the moment) gives you no ability to use themes whatsoever? (Yes, I know it's in development; Yes, I'm sure it'll be cool. If I did C++, I'd probably like Qt. I don't, and I don't).
Re the gnome panel apps requiring gnome to be loaded, btw, I dislike that as much as you do. But please, easy on the attacks. GTK and E are not slow and clunky unless you make them so.
Posted by OGL:
KDE and GNOME work fine together...
check out http://www.rit.edu/~waw0573/
-W.W.
Posted by DiegoGuy:
I installed the original Starbuck release and had major problems with DHCP, and with RPM and a couple other things.
Redhat released a new starbuck a week ago and I installed it and it runs great, not a single problem to report.
I predict Redhat 6.0 to be a revolution for Linux. This release is going to put Linux into the mainstream, mostly due to its good hardware support with the new 2.2 kernel and with GNOME, which I love.
Posted by DiegoGuy:
I had problems compiling SSH 1.2.26 under Redhat 5.9.7.
The solution is to comment out the line that contains "#define HAVE_UTMPX_H" in config.h.
I'm not sure though if this will make ssh not write to the wtmp correctly or not...
Hopefully Redhat will just INCLUDE SSH in Redhat 6.0.
Posted by DiegoGuy:
I'm not sure if this was discussed before, but does anyone know why Redhat isn't including SSH in their distribution?
After all, most people these days use SSH on their systems, at least that I know of. Personally, I use it on my system.
Posted by Forward The Light Brigade:
someone from ssh emailed me rpms for ssh 1.2.26 for glibc2.1
if you want them, they are mirrored on my comp...
ftp://sparky.student.umd.edu/ssh.glibc2.1.rpms/
get everything
[root@sparky ssh.glibc2.1.rpms]# pwd
/home/ftp/ssh.glibc2.1.rpms
[root@sparky ssh.glibc2.1.rpms]# ls -l
total 527
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 172584 Apr 18 14:25 ssh-1.2.26-1us.i386.rpm
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 222679 Apr 18 14:25 ssh-clients-1.2.26-1us.i386.rpm
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 21921 Apr 18 14:25 ssh-extras-1.2.26-1us.i386.rpm
-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 116085 Apr 18 14:25 ssh-server-1.2.26-1us.i386.rpm
[root@sparky ssh.glibc2.1.rpms]#
Posted by GhostX:
I use AfterStep. Small footprint. Why do I want KDE and Gnome - with the latest RH? Because of the programs - not the window manager. You need the libraries to run the programs.
So, some are saying we have a "VCR with Beta and VHS", but that is not all - we have, using the same analogy, a VCR with DVD and cable and satellite... and 8mm and 30mm...
If you are trying to compile ssh-1.2.26, comment out lines 437, 441, 442, and 454.
I haven't tried the ssh-2 releases.
Would anyone from ssh like to comment?
Oh damn - I forgot to say that you should do this to login.c.
If you are trying to compile ssh-1.2.26, comment out lines 437, 441, 442, and 454.
I haven't tried the ssh-2 releases.
Would anyone from ssh like to comment?
$7 for the CDROM and shipping
;-)
$12 for the manual
$0 for RedHat. Maybe I'll send a donation.
Remember that what's inside of you doesn't matter because nobody can see it.
Actually GNOME changed one of its system monitoring libraries to a GPL license from LGPL after Stallman's rant. They have mentioned they might do it for more. That would make the creation of proprietary software with GNOME impossible.
/proc filesystem, providing a set of routines to check things such as cpu and memory usage, active processes etc.
libgtop changed it's license. It extracts info from the
It's not exactly a vital Gnome library. In fact, how many companies wanting to port their proprietary apps are going to use that? And even if they needed the functionality, their programmers could reimplement the necessary pieces pretty quickly.
But you see, that's the point. Gnome will never change the license on core libraries. Some of the highly specialized, and non-vital, helper libraries might. So what? If some company wants to port, they'll duplicate what they need. Missing libgtop won't affect their decision...
Second, I'm not sure you understand the economics of proprietary software. QT is somewhere in the ballpark of $1000US. To a company putting out proprietary software this is nothing.
Exactly why your first argument is pointless. Paying a programmer to duplicate the bits of functionality they need out of a GPLed library is trivial to the total cost of the project.
The well designed and just generally easy and lovely API of QT speeds up developement time greatly, perhaps by as much as 30-50%. The money the company will thus save by going with QT in programmer salaries will far outweigh the cost of qt by several orders of magnitude.
I'll buy the '$1000 is trivial to the cost of the project' argument, but speeding up development time? I can write pretty functional applications in 100 lines of Perl/GTK. Translate it C and you add a bit, but it's all just duplicating Perl functionality, and not GTK.
Maybe, MAYBE, a marginal improvement, but saving several orders of magnitude over the $1000? Qt saves $100,000-$1,000,000 over GTK? Please!
I'd say rather than an economic problem, it's just going to be annoying, perhaps even amusing to proprietary companies. They have some Linux port requests, so they decide to look into it, and then find they have to spend $1000 for the privilege to use Qt. I think it will leave an interesting impression on a lot of companies, at the least.
TedC
Installation media, manuals, and support.
Downloading Linux isn't such a good deal unless you have more time than money.
TedC
Considering that their slogan is "Linux for Business" I'd say that's a safe assumption.
TedC
OpenLinux 2.2, SuSE 6.1, and Red Hat 6.0 are almost identical -- they all use the 2.2.5 kernel (maybe RH will be 2.2.6?), glibc 2.1, KDE 1.1, etc., so they're all pretty much in sync for the first time.
SuSE is nice because it comes with an extensive manual and 5 CDs full of software, but Caldera's new installation stuff sounds cool. I ordered them both just for fun. :-)
TedC
Been waiting for this to upgrade my 4.x systems at home and work. Can't wait.
"shop smart:shop s-mart" ash
I know i had problems with the rpm rpm. It didn't install or create the /usr/lib/rpm directory or the files that were in it, i simply copied the files from a 5.2 system across and all was peachy, but i haven't had it wiping out my rpm database.
Lets face it though, StarBuck was a BETA release so that long standing tinkerers like most of us are can have a good play with it and find the problems before they release 6.0 which needs to be *absolutely* rock solid if linux is going to make the required inroads in the corperate desktop market as most users won't want to have to upgrade all their machines because, as with 5.1, all the image library rpms weren't built correctly.
From now on the big distro's, SuSE, Debian, RedHat et al. are going to be under the spot light with every release they make, where as before they may have got away with not building rpms etc properly
becuase a larger number of the users were linux literate and could therefore sort out the problems, with the more general interest in linux and now everybody and his mum is talking about trying linux this kinda' thing won't be exceptable.
Things are going to be interesting over the next few months.
Just my $0.02 worth.
I know this is probably not the best place to ask but here goes anyway.
Does anybody know of any sites here in the UK where they are doing cheap GPL disks of RedHat, SuSE, Debian etc like CheapBytes is in the US ??
Ever since RedHat 2.0, it's always been upgradable. When you run the CD installation, you're given the option to Install or Upgrade. I've successfully upgraded many RedHat systems with few if any troubles.
On the other hand, I can't recall ever upgrading a Windows-like system to its next release without hosing up half of the applications.
Yes. See point 3 of the LGPL.
--
Interesting... I've always considered Caldera to be going for corporate desktops (net ware tools/support, other things I can't remember right now) more than Red Hat.
Can you get SRPMs? I can't see many people accepting RPMs from a completely unknown source (you may be trustworthy; on the other hand you may have added a whopping great backdoor). And if SSH provided RPMs wouldn't they be available at the usual places?
axolotl
--
Call me skeptic...
KDE isn't a window manager. KWM is a window manager.
dylan_-
--
Igor Presnyakov stole my hat
Yea, you can still get the same package, and that may cost more than before, but it's misleading to just say "it will cost more." It might, it might not, and it might be avaliable in diffrent "bundles" that make comparing it to the previous versions somewhat difficult.
I have been running Starbuck (5.9) on two of my systems, and it has some bugs (like e and gnome GUI configuration is flaky), but it's stable. I haven't seen the rpm thing your talking about happening. Over all, I would call it stable, and querky (mostly some user apps that act funny, not like a kernel panic or rpm database whip-out).
--
This problem was widely discussed on the starbuck mailing list. There were some corrupt RPMs distributed to the mirrors. If you're gonna play with beta software, it helps to join the mailing list. =)
That's likely why we won't see total KDE integration for most commercial apps. Why? Because for an app to be consistent with KDE (not to support it, true, but most people consider "integration" to include a similar look and feel) you need to use Qt. That puts Troll on the recieving end of a hell of a lot of cash, cash you don't have to pay to develop on any other graphics toolkit, or even any other platform.
My guess is that future commercial apps will support KDE and Gnome both, and be coded in GTK. Towards this end, I would really like to see the KDE and Gnome groups work together more in terms of developing standards. They managed to agree on drag-and-drop, at least, but what about things like object models (as previously mentioned in this thread somewhere)? If the two would work together better I think everything would turn out much better in the end. Those who prefer KDE's interface for whatever reason (there must be one, though I can't figure it out for the life of me) could stick with KDE, those who prefer Gnome's interface could use it, and everyone uses the same apps on both DE's, so everybody's happy.
As for me, I prefer Gnome but keep KDE's libs on my hard drive; I'll probably run across an app I want that needs them someday.
If you're upgrading from 5.2 to 6.0 by reformatting, you shouldn't even need to use Disk Druid. Keep the same partitions are before. It'll ask you which partitions you want to format, and you just select all partitons you want to be deleted (making sure not to choose your home directory).
Just make sure that your home directory is actually on a seperate partitions.
In fact, once Red Hat Linux 6.0 is released, RawHide will be even more useful that it has been in the past. Folks running Red Hat Linux 5.2 have had to recompile source rpms from RawHide in order to run them on their 5.2 systems because RawHide is glibc-2.1-based and 5.2 is glibc-2.0-based. With Red Hat Linux 6.0 based on glibc-2.1 and RawHide based on the same, folks running Red Hat Linux 6.0 will be able to download and use RawHide binary rpms without recompiling unless they want to.
-- "Ever wonder why the SAME PEOPLE make up ALL the conspiracy theories?"
Its not a bug, more of a feature. it runs "esound" which i belive uses libaudiofile (written by the one and only mike pruett), it allows more than one sound to be played at one time, and a bunch of other features. the catch? the app needs to be compiled with support for it, but a lot of apps out there have been modified to use it (a lot of wav players and most popular mp3 players, etc etc).
Even better:
If you can, boot from the CD or a floppy to get a shell. Usually, you can hit F2 for the shell. mknod the hard drive device and mount your hard drive and cp from there.
Why do I buy it from the box? For the cool stickers. As an added bonus, it comes with a manual and even the source code CD that I might not download.
Besides, I have been in the workforce for several years, so I do not mind paying for good things.
When I installed from a cdrom full of errors, it took a very long time. It would keep retrying the same sector and reseting the controller. If I remember, it was several minutes for each bad sector. You can watch any errors while it copies by tailing forever the message log in the background while you copy:
/var/log/messages &
tail -f
and see the bad sectors as the drive keeps trying. Sometimes all that effort manages to get data out of a bad sector; however, if I knew a way to turn off all those retries, I would turn it off. Its not worth the time to make a 15 minute install a whole day.
Oh, your really missing out.
Here is a picture of the redhat sticker perfect for slapping on your box.
And here is a coveted redhat bumper sticker that my car sports.
Not to mention the cool geek software t-shirts and hats they have. Let me tell you, red gets attention.
Why not distribute ssh freely? The License. From the /usr/doc/ssh-xxx/COPYING:
For commercial licensing please contact Data Fellows, Ltd. Data Fellows has exclusive licensing rights for the technology for
commercial purposes. Data Fellows offers commercial versions of SSH with maintenance agreements in addition to various licensing options for the technology itself. You can contact Data Fellows at
,
http://www.datafellows.com/, tel Int.+358-9-478 444 or fax Int.+358-9-4784 4599.
There are a few ways to upgrade that I use:
.../RPMS directory of the install cd and do a brute force upgrade rpm --nodeps --force *.rpm and repeat if there were errors.
/usr/local to a safe place so I have a fallback if I get careless. This can be done by:
/home /backup /etc /backup /usr/local /backup
Normal upgrade by booting the cd,
Try out a fresh install on a spare hard drive,
or not recommended unless you like to hack:
the quick brute force method even worked from the 4.x to 5.x distros was go to the
I always copy my home directory, etc, and
cp -ar
cp -ar
cp -ar
As of 5.9.10 you'll come directly up to a nice looking GDM screen if selecting "start X on restart" during the install. GDM defaults to launching Gnome. However, there are a sweet set of scripts that'll allow you to switch back and forth from Gnome to KDE easily. Very Nice.
I've almost switched from RH to Debian a number of times for this very reason. But there are a few reasons holding me back. First is that RPMs are the standard. While some developers make rpms available, very few make debian packages also. I just installed junkbuster from rpm the other day, which saved me a lot of time in installation and a lot of headache later if I want to uninstall it. For many fringe projects not included with Debian, I'd be giving that luxury up. I also found Debian information hard to find and usually out of date. Certainly a common problem, but really important given Debian's added complexity.
I can think of only two solutions to the problem. Switch to rpm format, but extend rpms to do what you need it too, while keeping the format backwardly compatible. Or make Debian package creation easy for a developer unfamiliar with Debian, so they aren't forced to run Debian to understand how to create packages for it.
As it is, rpms work good enough. I've had few problems with them. And RH, in turn, is good enough too.
Just a quick question... I'm evaluating whether to move our hosts up from libc5 to glibc and was hoping to hop over glibc-2.0.
No, we're not looking at a fight here.
Red Hat 6.0 uses gdm at runlevel 5, not the normal xdm. This features a combo box which allows you to select a KDE or a GNOME login environment. Whichever you select, the menus for the others are also available. For example, the KDE menu tree lives in the "KDE Menus" option of the main menu on the GNOME panel.
The default theme of GNOME co-exists quote pleasingly with the way thet KDE looks, so you can use both sets of apps without things jarring.
Red Hat 6.0 blends KDE and GNOME together pretty well. These observations are, in fact, based on red Hat 5.9, which I am assuming wil be pretty similar.
Uninstalling sendmail and putting the /usr/local symlinks in fixed that, and now the system works fine.
My NFS mounts seem to have turned themselves read-only, but I haven't figured that one out, yet.
... with the apparent exception of RealVideo again.
You can't really say that E is ugly. E doesn't have one particular look. It's themable. Even if all the themes are ugly, that's not a complaint against E.
--
Fuck the system? Nah, you might catch something.
i just tried Gnome 1.0.
overall I really like it and I hope it's included in RH6. But since it's been released so recently (Apr 12?) I am afraid it will not get enought testing by the time of RH6 release (May 10).
the one problem I had:
my crude install of gnome-1 somehow broke the 'control-panel' program.
/gigi
Actually GNOME changed one of its system monitoring libraries to a GPL license from LGPL after Stallman's rant. They have mentioned they might do it for more. That would make the creation of proprietary software with GNOME impossible.
Second, I'm not sure you understand the economics of proprietary software. QT is somewhere in the ballpark of $1000US. To a company putting out proprietary software this is nothing. The well designed and just generally easy and lovely API of QT speeds up developement time greatly, perhaps by as much as 30-50%. The money the company will thus save by going with QT in programmer salaries will far outweigh the cost of qt by several orders of magnitude.
As I understand it, KDE 2.0 will seperate most of the window manager functionality into a library. Thus, wm writers can simply link their wm to libkwm, and get 100% of the KDE compliance without having to implement an imterface like Windowmaker and Blackbox have.
Personally, I'm not to fond of kwm either, but not because it looks like Windows, that's a myth. What bothers me is its not that configurable. Yet the other 2 wms that are kde compliant don't integrate quite as well. Hopefully the library design will change this.
The only reason libgtop came to mind was that some friends of time were using it for a little system monitoring app they were writing and planning to release under a BSD license. The license change screwed those plans.
You claim GNOME will never change the licensing of their core libraries. One of the major pro-GNOME, anti-KDE arguments is that you can't trust troll tech not to pull the rug out if KDE gets dominent. Yet the KDE people and TT have been making less and less restrictive licenses in order to combat this fear. On the flip side, the GNOME people are tightening their licenses. Why should I trust them to keep the license the same on their core libraries.
I would recommend SuSE 6.1 which ships May 3rd.
Seems the folks here at Slashdot push Red Hat mostly but SuSE is a very nice distro.
Best Regards
Um, I run debian potato with the gnome staging area debs. Its stable. I have never crashed with pretty heavy usage. (1.0.8 Gnome and .15 E I believe.) Your claims are based on very un-tested ideas. GNOME is weird sometimes, but thats expected from its archetechure. It is more complex and flexible than anything else out there. As for the resorce argument -- I /know/ E with Clean Theam and gnome use /less/ memory than KDE and probally CDE. Go figure.
-- dieman - Scott Dier
GNOME IMHO uses less resources than KDE and is more configurable than KDE. (read - toolkit skins, E skins, MDI control, etc) It also has better licensing than KDE (with the whole qt thing going on, and kind of finished. *no*flames*please*) KDE doesn't seem to manage pesudo-color half as well as gnome either.
GNOME for me please.
-- dieman - Scott Dier
I use E + Gnome
I simply *do not* have problems.
I did have some problems resulting from constantly upgrading gnome since ver 0.20, but when I wiped all old config files, it worked like a charm.
Oh, and the Enlightenment 0.15 RPMs have been rock-solid.
sure, don't forget to tell your "commercial" software company that they have to pay Troll to make apps that use QT
Its spelt "L-I-N-U-X", but pronunced as "Free Beer"
However, it can be easier, if you know where all your stuff (should be in $HOME) is, don't have too many apps to reinstall, and have an easy way to back the stuff up.
support gun control: take guns from cops
ObFlamebait:
At least they're not rushing it like Gnome 1.0... hmm... printing is usually a feature of a 1.0 release...
-30-
> Gnome isn't an ad hoc design, like kde.
Although at first KDE kind of fell in around the Qt toolkit design-wise, from a design standpoint, it's getting pretty well structured and documented now. GNOME, on the other hand, seems to be stuck in an implement-first document-later cycle.
If you look carefully, KDE's (SOM/OpenDoc-influenced) object model is of a rather nicer design than Baboon (a cleaned-up COM), too.
At some point in the future, I strongly suspect that KDE and GNOME's object models will have to merge, in much the same way they finally ended up agreeing on a DnD protocol. Honestly I'd best like to see KDE's model adopted by both.
That being said, aside from the object models, it looks like the GNOME standards that _are_ specified are definitely turning out better than their KDE counterparts, both in terms of design and implementation.
I personally prefer GNOME, but they really need to get their design act together a little more.
(by the way, it's refreshing to see someone who can spell "ad hoc" correctly; it saddens me to see so many people who spell "fare" as "fair" and "their" as "there" and so on...)
DNA just wants to be free...
I used the version of gnome shipped with 5.9, and recently upgraded to the latest version. It's very usable!!!
----- "Kahn, I'm laughing at your superior intellect..."
I have to agree here... it really sucks to do a fresh install on a box and have to go hunting for ssh. :-)
----- "Kahn, I'm laughing at your superior intellect..."
I guess this means kde should be the standard gui for all linux mainstream apps (but people will always have the _choice_ to use gnome). Having one standard gui is very important for alot of people coming into linux who demand consistency.
---
but you weren't part of the battle. The battle is about how linux will look like to the outside world. It will look like kde. But that doesn't mean gnome isn't cool
---
well if you like what they're doing it makes sense to support them with your money. Then they'll be able to support the things you care about (like paying people to work on gnome,etc)
---
that's for redhat. But when commercial software companies note that all major linux distros have kde (Caldera, Suse, Corel and redhat), everything will be for kde
---
I've gotta agree here. I've been trying to keep an open mind on KDE vs. GNOME, but the truth is, KDE's a long long way ahead right now.
:-)
The problem with GNOME (and I do keep trying new versions) is its speed and memory consumption. Instability's still a problem, though definitely improving.
With anything other than the default Gtk theme, and with E running as well, performance drops through the floor, and memory consumption rises dramatically. An X server using 64MB of RAM, 32MB resident? No thank you!
Things are somewhat better with IceWM rather than E, but GNOME is still way too slow to be usable.
I'll probably get flamed on two counts here:
1) Get a faster machine? This is a PII-400 with a Millenium G200 graphics card. If that's not fast enough to run GNOME, then I won't run GNOME, simple as that.
2) Don't use themes or E. Fair enough, but since themes are touted so much as a super-cool GNOME feature, and the default Gtk look is well, plain, that's a pretty ridiculous argument too.
I can't help feeling that GNOME has been paying far too much attention to cutesy looks, and neglecting those little details like performance, stability and functionality.
But it does look nice, I'll give it that
use the one you like the most. i betcha it'll work out just fine. i promise.
Have you seen Ironstayn vs Supergovernment yet?
The configuration language is ugly, IMHO.
A year ago, it took me about half a day to get fvwm2 to look exactly how I wanted. A few months ago, it took me about half a day to get WindowMaker to look exactly how I wanted. I'm afraid it's going to take weeks to get E to look the way I want it to.
--
bgphints - internet routing news, hints and ti
"seems to work just fine..."
/seems/ to work fine..."
Sell THAT to a suit.
"Mister Biggerstaff, I have a solution to the
problem with this critical security component...
it
I can actually see someone getting fired in this
scenario, not that they would be dumb enough to
have the conversation like that... But this is the kind of trouble we are always up against.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
The really big download is not something that
everybody can take for granted. It is very nice
to have the physical media. The deadtree documentation that comes with RH is really good.
This appeals to some people. It does not appeal
to *me*, but then again, I have a t-3 and great
contempt for deadtree documentation... It's not
as if the linux distributions are particularly
expensive in the stores. Besides that, you'll
be able to get RH6 from cheapbytes for .
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
Stickers? I never got any STICKERS.
And come to think of it, Linux Journal never
sent me a sticker either.
(I want stickers)
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
So how can I become glibc-2.1 based?
ftp.gnu.org/pub/glibc/glibc-2.1-README says:
glibc-2.1 has been (temporarily) removed, until some political issues are worked out.
So much for freedom, openness, and widespread
availability of the software. I feel quite
locked out of the "cathedral" because of this.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
why are "people coming into linux who demand consistency?"
Weren't they instructed to leave their preconceived notions of computing at the entrance to the bazaar?
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
Yes, and of course *we power user types* don't do GUI installs. I don't mind one bit -- it's still Linux, after all, and every CLI tool you could ever want is right where it's always been.
"Professional coder on closed source. Do not attempt."
If it becomes impossible to write software that
is proprietary Linux will have no future in the
industry. I don't understand the stand of some
people who would want us programmers who make a
living on programming to go on welfare. I sure as
hell am not interested in just giving software
support.
This works for systems where people are at loss on
a problem. Usually it doesn't work that way. We
write programs that people need and software
support is almost always never needed as the help
files are good enough.
In a way, fanatics who want nothing but free
software want us in the poor house because
they're too cheap to buy software or just
some comies who think those working for a living
don't deserve to get paid for their hard work.
On Linux there is room for both proprietary
and non proprietary software. We write code
to earn money and we contribute some free
software to help people who can't afford or
are too cheap to buy software.
I believe gnome will mtake even more user share of the linux desktop after redhat 6.0 come out. Gnome isn't an ad hoc design, like kde. Have you not seen all the gtk+ apps out? hello... I'll never use kde.
I remember a while back, when I wanted to make a GNUStep app and couldn't get any development pacakges. Has it opened up to public coders? I'm all for a NeXt desktop. If not I can keep using the GTKStep gtk theme... ^_^
Yeah, ditto - I'm happy to give RedHat $50 once a year or so. It's a great package and a cause I support. For some reason, not having to pay makes me more inclined to do so, though not in the same guilty way I pay for charitable events that have a "suggested donation".
I have no problem with CheapBytes either, as long as I have a fairly recent Redhat installation manual on hand.
--Philip
"It's amazing how our industry is strewn with beautiful, dead technology and bitter engineers." --M. Huyck
I think you've got the wrong end of the stick.
Firstly you are confusing commercial with proprietary. You are free to release commercial apps with QT as long as they are open. (Ala Cygnus style).
Secondly remember GNOME stands for _GNU_ Network Object Environment. That is GNU as in FSF supported. FSF as in founded by RMS. Now RMS has clearly stated his view on proprietary software time and time again, he believes it to be immoral. In fact he has changed the LGPL license, so that instead of standing for Library Gnu Public License it stands for _Lesser_ GPL. That is, it is deprecated, and RMS (and hence FSF and hence GNOME) will attempt to phase that license out, replacing it with the GPL.
If RMS succeeds (and I think he will) it will mean that developing proprietary apps for GNOME is illegal.
Please check your facts before posting something so blatantly wrong.
Um. The FSF is *not* phasing out the LGPL. Apparently, you haven't read anything about the name changem l for the full story)
Please provide evidence of this. If you are speaking on behalf of the FSF please state your name. I find this assertion of dubious value. RMS the founder of the FSF stated on gnu.announce (see http://slashdot.org/articles/99/02/01/1730200.sht
"If we amass a collection of powerful GPL-covered libraries that have no parallel available to proprietary software, they will provide a range of useful modules to serve as building blocks in new free programs. This will be a significant advantage for further free software development, and some projects will decide to make software free in order to use these libraries. University projects can easily be influenced; nowadays, as companies begin to consider making software free, even some commercial projects can be influenced in this way.
Proprietary software developers, seeking to deny the free competition an important advantage, will try to convince authors not to contribute libraries to the GPL-covered collection. For example, they may appeal to the ego, promising "more users for this library" if we let them use the code in proprietary software products. Popularity is tempting, and it is easy for a library developer to rationalize the idea that boosting the popularity of that one library is what the community needs above all.
But we should not listen to these temptations, because we can achieve much more if we stand together. We free software developers should support one another. By releasing libraries that are limited to free software only, we can help each other's free software packages outdo the proprietary alternatives. The whole free software movement will have more popularity, because free software as a whole will stack up better against the competition."
In fact part of me believes he is right, that his assertions while costly are morally justifiable.
As RMS is the founder of the FSF I take his official statements on gnu.announce as being representative of those of the FSF. Now the GNU project is a FSF project, and I expect the imperatives laid down in such statements to be applied to all parts of the GNU project, including GNOME. (Remember this annoucement was made on gnu.annouce)
Also I have a question: if I contribute code to an LGPLed project, can someone else change to project to GPL without my consent? Honest question, I don't know the answer.
I believe the original license holder has a legal right of ownership to all works derived from their work.
This means they can _re_license an LGPL library derived from their work under any license they wish, including the GPL.
Please note relicensing doesn't invalidate earlier licenses.
You may distribute work derived from GPL'd work, (under certain conditions layed out in the GPL). Doing so enters you into a legally binding agreement with the original licenser. As long as your adhere to the conditions of the GPL you may continue to distribute derived works for as long as you wish.
Perhaps the original licenser may choose to stop publishing their work under the GPL. This wouldn't affect you as you have already entered into a legally binding agreement. I don't think you can grant the rights you have received to others though.
This is my honest opinion, but as you can see the situation is simple, I could be wrong.
I am not a lawyer and these comments should not be construed as legal advice.
Firstly let me apologize for the inflammatory nature of my earlier comments. I responded to what I considered an unfair and untrue attack on KDE, and perhaps I took it personally.
I found your support of keeping the GNOME libs "library" GPL'd informative, but it has not convinced me that the libs will remain LGPL'd. Aren't your views incompatible with RMS's? Perhaps you could be persuaded to change your mind if only you could see how immoral proprietary software is? Are not intellectual properties laws (which proprietary software depend on) clouding the signals of the market, forcing it towards to creation of monopolies and away from its true point of equilibrium? Surely you would be better off contributing towards a GPL'd branch of the libraries. If only one core library developer contributes under the GPL instead of the LGPL wouldn't it place proprietary vendors in a difficult position?
Such arguments can be very convincing, and perhaps are 'right'.
More importantly I wish you the best of luck with your projects whatever they may be. I suspect our goals are similar. We shouldn't be arguing we should be coding! (and increasing our efforts to work towards common standards)
Not only can you, the installer since at least 5.1 recommends not formatting /home if you had a previous install.
Free Mac Mini. Yes, I'm
I just ordered the cheapy set of various distribs CD's from Linux Mall so I could play with (among others) Red Hat.
I guess I'll have to order the $1.89 Red Hat 6.0 once it comes out.
Stupid people will be persecuted to the fullest extent allowed by law.
well, hmm... Maybe because you're not PAYING for Red Hat linux? you're paying for the manuals, you're paying for the CD, you're paying for the box, and you're paying for support. The software is still free.
First off...the larger our user base is, the better the product becomes, and the more our chances are of getting a job. Wink, wink...I think your college pals will come around when they realise that Linux is better than Windows in many ways...........
.. I don't like KDE's desktop myself but I love the functionality of the K libraries. It turns out that one can run WindowMaker (my favorite GUI) with KDE extensions for the feel of WindowMaker and the functionality of KDE. Apparently the K group realized that not everyone in the Linux community likes Windows (ahem) and have therefore taken pains to make their system more flexible.
But secondly, with regards to KDE
Finding God in a Dog
I know RH is good too. I can't wait for cheapbytes to have it so that I can install it on a spare system and play with it.
But if you want to have a computing future where upgrades are no longer a headache, you must switch to Debian. Apt/dpkg are a combination in computing bliss. Most people switch to Debian once they learn about this feature. Linux is easy as pie once you know that your system is under control.
I'm not knocking other distros. The recent Caldera and now RH announcements are very encouraging. I think both of those markets are corporate. Debian's install can take getting used to, but once you learn it, the mailing list support at debian-user@lists.debian.org are excellent. IRC at irc.openprojects.net #debian can be a good resource as well if you catch a developer in a generous mood.
I know RH is the most popular, but if you are looking for a practical reason to pick a particular distro, then debian is a choice where you can learn a lot, there's a lot of help, future upgrades will not be any problem at all. Finally, debian's stability and speed can only be matched by the *BSDs. KDE and GNOME both run in debian quite well. Try it.... If you choose to run RH 6.0, email me and tell me about your experiences. C-ya...
Acutally, if you go to the bother of ordering a cheapbyte CD (clicking order), you'll notice that they ship Internationally. This stumped me for a while, though, since it is not listed as 'United Kingdom'. It is listed as 'Great Britain and Ireland'. Jesse
RedHat is a private (read: not publicly traded) company.
RedHat and all distribution packagers, charge for support, compatability testing, a pre-printed distribution-specific manual, as well as CD-ROM packaging of the, otherwise, freely available software. If you have the bandwidth, you can actually download all the software they sell and much of the documentation from their own ftp and web site(s).
RMS also pointed out that this strategy of GPLing libraries instead of LGPLing them only works for libraries that don't already exist in some form or another. It would have made no sense to GPL the C library, someone else would have made one available. Same with GNOME, KDE already exists. If both KDE and GNOME allow no commercial development, what good does that do than hinder the growth of Linux.
Also I have a question: if I contribute code to an LGPLed project, can someone else change to project to GPL without my consent? Honest question, I don't know the answer.
So, you are publically posting that you are violating U.S. export laws (as stupid as they may be) by making ssh (crypto software) publically available from a site in the U.S.?
Does this mean that Slashdot is now also guilty of consipiracy to violate these (stupid) laws? UMD's lawyers would certainly find this "interesting."
Phil Zimmerman wasn't ever actually tried; I wonder if they'll consider your case more likely to succeed? Tried or not, his life was certainly majorly disrupted for years.
(The phrase "Stupid Americans" comes to mind.)
Actually, I have the Red Hat bumper sticker slapped on one of the tubes on my bike. (I don't own a car)
;-)
I like to think that I look equally as cool
Unless someone has come up with a fix to building ssh under glibc 2.1, I won't be upgrading anytime soon. This is what caused me to scale back to redhat 5.2 after installing the 5.9.7 release of starbuck.
Greg
This sounds fine and dandy, and it might work just fine. But personally when using a product such as SSH which I rely on for secure connections at my job. I personally don't care for the idea of commenting out random lines because the compiler quit with an error induced by glibc 2.1.
Just my $0.02 worth.
Greg
I LOVE IceWM. It's fast, not a resource hog, is GNOME-aware, fairly configurable (as long as traditional-layout windows are your thing, no side-titlebars here) and very stable.
Not to mention, just when you think Marko's given it up, there's about two releases a day for two weeks fixing tons of bugs and adding a dizzying array of new features.
Heh.
Ken Crandall
However, your are wrong. Check the gnome mailing list around the time RMS talked about the LGPL-GPL thing. They do not plan on changing the liscence of gnome (save libgtop, but you won't need that for making a proprietary app like a word processor or something.)
facts?
I know I will be moderated down for this, but . . . Vincent
the rpm database format changed. rm -f /var/lib/rpm/*; rpm --initdb
In starbuck, there are problems with i18n issues. again.
They changed the names of their keymaps, and when I did upgrade from RH5.2, the init script did not find the keymap because it was looking for the old one.
Since i use a german keyboard at home, this was really ugly. Easy to find for me, but the average newcomer would rather switch to SUSE right then because of their (natural?) better support for german systems at last.
If You know that soylentgreenis not human, find out my real email address....
Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me...
Can you imagine a form of speech so powerful that it is considered a munition? It reminds me of the Monty Python sketch about the world's funniest joke being used against the Axis powers in WWII.
Everybody's selling real military hardware to everybody else like they were penny candy or baseball cards. Why the fuss over a secret decoder ring?
Politicians ought to grow up, really.
I agree about E , I still use 15.5 and its stable I think its one of the best looking WM's out thier
also GREAT SIG..
never heard that one before..
It is possible for anyone to release a GPL'd copy of gnome-libs (or kdelibs for that matter). The LGPL specifically says that the licence can be changed in this direction by anyone. This would not stop you from getting the official LGPL'd release though.
If you look at the headers of gnome-libs, you will see many people claim copyright to sections of gnome-libs (a lot of us have not, and don't plan to, assigned copyright to FSF). This together with the fact that releases are not handled by the FSF means that FSF can't unilaterally change the licence on gnome-libs (the only set of librarys that are required to get the GNOME look and feel).
There are no plans to change the licence on gnome-libs to GPL. If there was, it would be discussed quite widely.
James. (one of the gnome developers -- speaking for myself only)
Everyone has there own motivations. I agree with RMS on a number of things. Free Software is a Good Thing (the two GNOME applications I have written are GPL'd), but there are reasons why you might want to LGPL components of the GNOME system.
For one thing, some developers may not have contributed to gnome-libs at all, if there was no chance that they could use the code they wrote for GNOME at work (I don't know of any people off hand, but it is a possibility).
If I started checking in code to gnome-libs that had standard GPL copyrights on it, or marking my modifications as being GPL'd, my code would probably be backed out, and I may also loose my account. If there was going to be a GPL'd gnome-libs, either everyone would have to agree on it, or it would be a splinter project. Neither of these options are very likely to occur.
(once again, only speaking for myself)
Well I know that there is a newer version of my program gnorpm (the new GUI front end that replaces glint). This one has fewer bugs, and a few changes to the web find window to make it more usable.
..but were you like born yesterday? It happens all the time, nothing special about it.
I know several guys here at the University who wanna be cool and go for Linux and they all talk about how they are going to get Redhat because they perceive it as the easiest and best. Phooey that win9Xish KDE is what they all will see and use. (No flames please) It seems like all the distros are going for KDE (Redhat, Corel, Caldera,...). I guess it's better than people thinking Linux is fvwm95...but either way, I don't care for the perception that Linux is trying to become as good as windows...(their words, not mine!)
"I want peace on earth and good will toward men." "We're the U.S. government. We don't do that sort of thing!!"
This sounds like a nightmare. Is glibc 2.1 not backward compatible with glibc 2.0? That sucks. Doesn't this mean that RPMs and binary commercial programs compiled with glibc 2.1 will not work with glibc 2.0? Isn't this the nasty situation with libc/glibc that we're all trying to get past by moving to glibc in the first place?
----------
In a real emergency, we would have all fled in terror, and you would not have been notified.
Just curious.
----------
In a real emergency, we would have all fled in terror, and you would not have been notified.
Am I missing something here? Does anyone else see this as a major problem?
----------
In a real emergency, we would have all fled in terror, and you would not have been notified.
I have no idea about how well the Debian stuff works or not, but on my RedHat system I've only had to reboot when upgrading the kernel itself. No other upgrades have required a reboot or any shutdown of services (with the obvious exception of immediately restarting the service being upgraded).
----------
In a real emergency, we would have all fled in terror, and you would not have been notified.
http://www.linux-emporium.co.uk/
I keep wondering if they're going to start selling stock so I can buy some and ride it on up :)
I have had Starbuck up and running for about a week now. Nothing major to report other than some gtk problems. But nothing devastating like an rpm wipeout. Maybe you got a bad install? Enlightenment is running like a charm. Can't wait to see 6.0.
I hope they put together a nice set of update rpms... I don't feel like doing a reinstall. Too much of a pain.
-[Blaine]- "'Oh dear,' says God, 'I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic."
Wow, I rarely have seen such an act of ignorance in my life. I guess you never heard of rawhide, or 5.9.x (pre6.0) releases. How could you post without at least checking??
They are getting slow??? They release constantly! They only make "final" releases when they stabalize now.
Man, RedHat figures out what it did wrong, fixes the problem with betas/pre releases, and the ignorant still attack them without realizing the major changes they made to help their customers.
-- Keith Moore
This sig is the express property of someone.
Can you imagine Microsoft offering the Windows 95 Technology Preview Shell on Windows 3.51 as a commercial server product.
They did, they called it NT4.0.
-- Keith Moore
This sig is the express property of someone.
If you are interested in a BETA, you are probably not a new user (unless you are looking for a reason to hate Linux), and you know where to find it on the FTP server, or already know about RawHide.
-- Keith Moore
This sig is the express property of someone.
Uhm, GNOME supports any language you want, KDE supports C++ (which ANSI has all but killed).
-- Keith Moore
This sig is the express property of someone.
esound and libaudiofile are greedy about being the way to do sound on the system. However, there is a way (esddsp, IIRC) to make it play nicely with apps that aren't compiled for esound support.
Also, GNOME and E work just fine without sound. I run them on a PC without a sound card. Both of them have a --disable-sound option. Also, there's a nice little checkbutton to disable sound in both the GNOME and E configuration GUIs.
Nope. I'm running the 5.9.7 Starbuck available from a few FTP sites. It ships with kernel 2.2.5. And, FWIW, 5.2 didn't ship with a pre kernel either...a full version of 2.0.36.
Oh, and for those of you in the whole GNOME vs. KDE tiff, the installer pops up a special dialog asking if you want to install GNOME. KDE is included, but it doesn't get a special dialog of its own.
I've been running 5.9.7 for a week, and I have yet to encounter any problems with the GNOME apps. I don't use E myself (I run WindowMaker 0.51.2).
Don't like it? Go use another distribution. No one's forcing you to buy RedHat or download it.
It's been a few years, but alien should still be around. It converts between rpm's deb's tgz's and slp's, don't know how well though. I'm installing stampede, so I'll find out within a week or two.
Personally I am a caldera fan, their distro, in my experience, has been the definition of stablility, and with the newest version adding all sorts of needed features it should be even more of a pleasure to use.
You can use Esound to catch output to the dsp device from "legacy programs" and mix it with other output by using esddsp. Just prefix your command line with esddsp. For example "esddsp mpg123 barney-medley.mp3"
Here's a link to junk buster for debian, no need for RPMs and its even on the debian web site.
Junkbuster 2.0-4
And as for not finding any good information about debian did you look in the right places? Did you even bother to look at the Debian website.
Helish
Are we looking at a VHS/Beta fight with KDE and Gnome? How can we avoid this?
There is a big difference between the KDE/GNOME situation and the VHS/Beta situation. While you can have both Gnome and KDE on the same system - with KDE apps running in Gnome & vice-versa, the average customer would have had a very difficult time finding a VCR that played both VHS and Beta cassettes.
Meldroc, Waster of Electrons
Uhh... since at least RH 3.0, you can update an older version to the new RH version. When the installer asks if you want to install a new system or update an old system... well, I'll let you figure out which one to pick.
Yes, it will be glibc-2.1 based.
If you want a pretty good idea of what RH 6.0 will be, you can download the "starbuck" release (as I understand it, that's the codename for the beta version, not the codename for the actual 6.0 release, contrary to the news.com story). The latest starbuck calls itself 5.9.7 and seems to be stable for my system, although other people have complained about various bugs.
Note that the starbuck CD that cheapbytes is selling is an older 5.9 beta. It has an older kernel (5.9.7 has kernel 2.2.5) and a lot more bugs, so you're better off downloading the latest starbuck.
Yeah, imagine a beowulf cluster with a kde gui!!
I keep wondering if RedHat's stock is going to take a plunge once people figure out that you can get Linux for free. Actually RH is a privately held company. In other words they don't have any stock to take a plunge.
Its easy enough to upgrade without having to wait for somebody to package stuff in a RPM for you :)
-- toolie
Hey, just a quick question. Does anyone know how to get the sendmail that is included in Starbucks to accept mail to an nonexistant dns. For example say my server is joe.com and someone sends email to john@hi.joe.com and I have not made an entry in my dns for hi. in the old version I could use a wildcard to show that I will accept mail from *.joe.com but now due to security reasons wildcarsds are not accepted.. Is there a way I can make a workaround for this?
Seeing as they are not a publicly traded company, I doubt they worry about their stock falling.
DrLunch.com The site that tells you what's for lunch!
It'll be interesting to see how they fair against the new OpenLinux. How fitting that they announce their release date so soon after OpenLinux. I guess we'll just have to see how it goes...
Talk about unstable. Only RedHat could make something as E a default window manager. No matter what, but E is far from being stable (aside from being a resource hog and ugly IMHO). Same applies to GNOME. No other GNU software was as broken as gnome when it reached version 1.0... When I see version program X v1.0, I expect that software not to crash and compile out of box on any unix flawor with single, ./configure, make, make install.
...
Can't say that about gnome
My $0.02
PS: Oh, and.. are they gonna ship a distribution with a "pre" kernel again? That was silly, 5.1 shipped with 2.0.34pre, 5.2 with 2.0.36pre I believe too.. talk about unstable...
Nah, I know him (we both go to U of Maryland). And I'd say he's a pretty safe source.
:-)
Of course, now you have to trust ME
"Software is like sex- the best is for free"
I like KDE...but I'm willing to try Gnome, so I don't think that battle is over for me. I've been waiting for Gnome because I've read about the difficulties they were having. Even their website admits that they released 1.0 a little early.
Either way it's going to be fun playing with the 2.2 kernel.
On another note, I feel that 1999 is the year Linux grasps for the desktop. I said grasps, as in close, but not quite. We still need to wait for all them wonderful GNOME (I don't follow KDE) applications to finish. Consider some day in the year 2000 D-Day, the day of World Domination!
--
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(must... not... defend... GNOME......)
And I think the "it's here!" argument is getting old. Guess what! So is GNOME!
(Dang it! I can't help it. I'm weak
--
a) Developers will write in pure X
b) Developers will write for both Gnome and KDE (the best solution IMHO)
c) Developers will write in GTK only, a lot of developers have already done this.
I'm not an expert but these all seem likely. I don't think developers will leave out greater than 15% of potential users when developing software.
--
Does E still have that bug where it seems to grab the sound device and nothing else can play sound? (It's been a long time since I looked at E, something like v 0.13, so excuse me if thats a dumb question.)
Ah well. Either way, doesn't really bother me. I'll play around a bit with the new stuff, then go back to icewm --- I "only" have 64MB RAM on my Linux box.
Sounds a little bit like MS DirectSound, kind of.
... or would it?
.. apps start getting written *for* it, and eventually I will need to install E to use those apps. Am I overly paranoid? Will apps (even binaries) *always* still support sound on a system without GNOME at all?
But why not just make it only hold the sound device when there are applications that actually want to use it? I.e. something like a reference count, which when it reaches 0, E releases the sound device. This way apps can still be written the "legacy" way.
I presume that since E plays sounds so often with its themes n stuff that the overhead of doing this would introduce too much latency on the sound playing
Although this feature of E is nice, it bothers me that it somehow introduces a kind of "lock-in"
The argument that keeps getting dragged out is that if the US exports strong encryption, then terrorists et al. will be able to communicate without the NSA/CIA/Whoever being able to listen in. Except, most encryption algorithms are quite simple, and are widely known outside of the US. That doesn't stop the FBI Director and other vocal US gov't people from complaining.
Dream well...
Curgoth
i've solved everyone's problems. Install GTK+, then install QT, then your desktop of choice (GNOME is my favorite, tho i do have KDE also), since the app is written to the lib, not the desktop itself, by having both libs, you are 100% compatible with apps written for both.
I've been using GNOME for about a month with all of the standard KDE apps, especially Kppp.
Opinionated Law Student Strikes Again!
part of linux is the fact that it gives you choices. You can use one, both, or none, we should be able to run ANY apps we want. But we souldn't do that by standardizing on a desktop, which forces the user to use that desktop. That esp. screws over Linus Torvalds, who doesn't use either KDE or Gnome (however, he would choose KDE if he had to).
Opinionated Law Student Strikes Again!
There's an option to esd (enlightenmend sound daemon) that will make it release the device after a couple of seconds after last use. So you can do that.
/dev/dsp with esd.
Since esd actually works on other platforms than Linux I quite like it too. Imagine my surprise when starting gnome and my usually very quiet HP-UX workstation suddenly did sound.
And, of course, you can use esddsp to use apps that write to
Further, esd is not dependent on Enlightenment or GNOME. When people whine about GNOME being distributed as a gazillion different files, they usually miss the point that those applications are not dependent on GNOME and things like esd can be used wether you run GNOME or KDE, or just a window manager. In my opinion that is an advantage.
5.x is where x is a patch level release , 6.0 is branching in a new direction
>it's small, it's fast, it's flexible, it's
> stable, and I can't beleive Red Hat didn't
> include it as a choise
Erm. They do. Have you actually looked at StarBuck at all? Hell, it's even in the default Window Manager bit of the Gnome Control Centre.
-- Post No Gravy
>Wheres the beta 6.0 ???
Um. Ever heard of RawHide? Starbuck? Have you been living under some kind of silicon based material?
>They are just gona throw us a buggy one
>and then we have to wait 6 weeks for 6.1 ???
I've been using RawHide 1.3.4 for a while now, with only one problem - NFS. That's more of a kernel thing at the moment though.
-- Post No Gravy
GNOME has made /gigantic/ strides in usability and stability since .30 or .99 or even 1.02. It just keeps getting better - certainly, it's no more or less stable than KDE. The KDE apps appear on the GNOME menu as well, and I use them alongside the GNOME apps with /no/ problems.
Seriously, I'd be extremely surprised indeed if there were any significant UI probs with RH 6.0 when it appears.
Rob
-- Post No Gravy
I had serious problems with Starbuck when it was first released. About a week ago, I reinstalled. Have not had any problems. I am not a huge fan of gnome and KDE (I'm more of an fvwm2 man), but gnome is growing on me....
Why bother with these over bloated, over rated, highly annoying and hardly usefull wm's? It's something I'll never understand.
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If I actually could spell I'd have spelled it right in the first place.
You have to choose between renting a T1 line or buying a RedHat box!
;)
You have to choose between supporting Linux and Linux companies and living like a cheap bastard
Kill Microsoft? No! Just hire their GUI guys!
I have been waiting for RedHat 6.0 to upgrade to kernel 2.2.x.
I will buy the boxed set if I can or any other official redhat box (like powertools or variety...)
Please do buy it. We need to give money to RedHat and Linux in general!
YIHAA!
Kill Microsoft? No! Just hire their GUI guys!
If I make a fresh install. Can I still keep my home without change?
/home do I keep it and data on it?
I mean at disk druid thing if I change other partition size without touching
Kill Microsoft? No! Just hire their GUI guys!
THANKS. I THOUGHT SO. It is just that I remembered or maybe dreamed of reading that kernel 2.2 has a new filesystem. So I aid to maself: what about my ext2fs?
Kill Microsoft? No! Just hire their GUI guys!
The problem arises when you have a project that needs more then 100 lines. Then it is really really nice to have have C++/Python and Qt.
Some of my friends recommend doing a complete reinstall for a major version upgrade.
Any thoughts? Should RH 6.0 upgrade gracefully on a 5.2 system?
You're right -- RedHat is a privately owned company.
Whew. Nothing like sitting down at your computer after supper to find that you've made a fool of yourself about "RedHat stock." Should have looked that one up. I guess I could try to make some lame excuse that I was speaking metaphorically, but I wasn't.
utmpx and wtmpx exist on some systems (IRIX is theo only one I know of, there may be others) to solve the problem of utmp/wtmp logging of x terminal sessions by logging only the xdm login, not the subsequent shells you start in an xterm. Under linux & XFree it's irrelevant.
At last RedHat but's KDE in it's distribution!!! :(
i have been trying to get KDE. But it is so big and i have no internet home so i use floppy's to get it from school but i allways have bad sectors.
What I do know is that Redhat have been guilty of this kind of thing in the past. Ever tried doing a minimal as possible install? With 5.2, it insisted that the 16 colour X server was installed, which meant most of the X libs as well. For a low-end web server that was never even going to see a monitor, that strikes me as silly.
Of course, I probably shouldn't have been using Redhat for that sort of thing, but hey, everyone's lazy... :)
Does anyone have tried to upgrade from RH5.1, 5.0 or possibly older version ?
I think it's more secure, and clean to reinstall.
And, can you tell me what is more fun to reconfigure a new linux box. To think about thing that you didn't know before ?
A few people have mentioned esddsp in this thread,
but I'd also like to point out the "autostandby" mode of esd:
Try esd -as 10
Cool eh?
Cheers
stor
"Yeah well there's a lot of stuff that should be, but isn't"