Slashdot Mirror
Mozilla M7 - Ready for the War
jonMC writes "Ok, not quite Netscape, it's Mozilla. M7 release notes are here. You can get the straight goodies from the ftp site. " The release notes also point out that the Full Circle enabled versions allow for error transmission errors back to Netscape - along with "improved crash analysis". Mozilla just keeps looking better.
I've been building out of CVS for a few weeks now... it's getting better. It's only a few configure flags away from optimization, which is pretty peppy.
:( There are still things that can crash it.
What I don't like is some of the rendering schizophrenia that Mozilla still goes through. I keep the sidebar minimized, but it doesn't seem to like staying at one particular size
But damn it's moving quick.
JPEG - high quality (702k)
JPEG - low quality (204k)
When I connect to the Banyan Intranet connect page and login, core files ahoy!
#0 0x403b4e8b in PR_Close ()
(gdb) bt
#0 0x403b4e8b in PR_Close ()
#1 0x40154bc3 in net_ProcessHTTP ()
#2 0x401fbef3 in NET_ProcessNet ()
#3 0x40201517 in NET_PollSockets ()
#4 0x4021a06d in nsNetlibService::NetPollSocketsCallback ()
#5 0x400f0012 in TimerImpl::FireTimeout ()
#6 0x400f0344 in nsTimerExpired ()
#7 0x80e740b in g_timeout_dispatch (source_data=0x82b4320,
current_time=0xbffffab8, user_data=0x82deed0) at gmain.c:1147
#8 0x80e6990 in g_main_dispatch (current_time=0xbffffab8) at gmain.c:647
#9 0x80e6e0b in g_main_iterate (block=1, dispatch=1) at gmain.c:854
#10 0x80e6f25 in g_main_run (loop=0x81a28b0) at gmain.c:912
#11 0x8084e4b in gtk_main () at gtkmain.c:475
#12 0x400ac8bf in nsAppShell::Run ()
#13 0x4001a51e in nsAppShellService::Run ()
#14 0x8051c0b in main ()
(gdb) info locals
No symbol table info available.
(gdb)
On a default rh 5.2 system.
I have to admit though, this is going to be a killer when they actually get it to work well. I've never seen graphics load so fast in my life (on a web browser).
Its CSS support is still not fully compliant though: http://www.hotwired.com/webmonkey/99/15/index1a.ht ml?tw=browsers
I think Netscape started going downhill at Version 4.0 where it really bloated and wasn't really better than Nav 3.0
I also wonder why they're not releasing the source to Communicator 4.x. I guess it would take too long to strip away all the stuff that didn't belong to them.
The thing is that IE is promoting a lot of non-standard things. I mean, Netscape did have and and some other non-standard tags, but MS is doing much more than that. Like the CSS a.hover(?) thing, isn't part of the standard, but practically every CSS website uses it now. People will probably think that Netscape is buggy because it doesn't use this MS tag. There's also bgsound, background=fixed, marquee...
What happens is that even though MS hasn't really bothered to fully implement the standards in their browser, people think that it is fully compliant.
As long as microsoft obeys standards
But, see, that's the whole point. MS can deviate from standards (has before and will in the future) to make other products incompatible. If the vast majority of the Web (>90%) use MSIE, there won't be two versions of web pages at most sites (one MSIE, one "other"). There'll just be one. MSIE compatible. And I'm sure MS will start packing lots of HTML authoring tools in Win or Office sooner or later (if they don't already -- I don't use it), to "help" Web content creators "ensure compatibility".
Totally different subject: I hate this sentence "You can force the Web page to appear exactly as you want when viewed!". Bunch of stone-age designers that don't understand the Web making everyone miserable. CSS was the worst thing that ever happened to the Web. Okay, it had potential, but what it was used for was just plain bad.
Until the majority of web sites only work with MSIE. MS tried controlling sites (I remember my sister going to the StarTrek website on a Mac, and was faced with a message "This site requires Microsoft Windows"). That's hard. Packaging HTML authoring tools with Office/Win that produce pages only viewable with MSIE is very doable. I'd be very suprised if such tools aren't aready under development.
See, it's the ordinary Joe like you that MS wants to exploit. Make MSIE better in the short run, until most people have it. Start encouraging web page authors to only produce MSIE compatible pages. Wait till MSIE is essentially a requirement. Slow development on MSIE, and use solely as a marketing tool. MS tradition with other products.
*All* MS software is marketing tools. Why the heck do you think MS does so well? Every product is designed solely to conquer a market, then used as leverage to conquer another market.
Everybody seems to be really enthousiastic about standards support. Most people don't seem to realize that those masses of ns/ie 3.x, 4.x users are not going to go away. In other words running a standards compliant site means excluding all but mozzilla users (unless you don't use the advanced stuff).
Boy, you hit the nail on the head and didn't notice. Except it'll be MS standards. MS promotes MS standards. MS standards get used. Non-MSIE users get excluded.
MS is possibly the best monopolist the world has ever known. Better than Standard Oil -- they can spread to new markets well. Every product is leveraged against a new market. I don't think they've *ever* been pushed back once they've gained majority market share in a market. If MSIE has 70% market share, or whatever, Navigator/Mozilla may not be dead, but it almost certainly isn't going to regain its former strength.
I've seen too many people underestimate MS. The Mac world had zero fears about MS in the early 90's. Kept saying that MS was going to fall back, later on. Nope. Be very afraid of MS, because if you don't, they *will* win. Do I sound like a zealot? Well, those who don't end up going MS.
here! here!
shared libs are a pain...
if you have more then 2 apps that use the same library, then fine, share it... but otherwise.. ugh!
Standards aren't what the market goes with. Photoshop TIFF isn't standard. It's just what everyone uses. Why? Because everyone uses Photoshop in publishing. Same deal with MSIE. I can make a standard say anything, and no one will care. If most of the people on the Web use MSIE, of course I'm going to make MSIE compliant sites. Am I (a hypothetical Web design company) going to design sites that look like cr*p, and tell clients that it'll look fine when the browsers become standard-compliant? Of course not. Majority rules.
.se domains than .cn and .in together...despite the huge populations of those two countries.
As for MSIE being popular in the US and Europe...no, that isn't the world. True. Just 95% or more of the computers in the world. Yeah, just tons of network infractructure in China, let me tell you. There are probably more
That is true, you're right.
But bear in mind that R7 is a pre-alpa.
It's a thankless job, but I've got a lot of Karma to burn off
Apparently the necessary callback in netlib (NET_PrefChangedFunc) is not called when the network preference change while loading the prefs50.js file. You can force mozilla to use the proxy info by changing the proxy type in the preference dialog, OKing, then changing it back to the right type (after which NET_PrefChangedFunc is called). The next time you load mozilla, it will fail again, though.
Still doesn't work for me though. I'm not sure what sort of a bug I can report this as, apart from "Duh. Doesn't work".
-- Post No Gravy
What kind of linux are you using and what hardware too.
Thanks
Well, the Win version looks pretty nice (even on a P90 running win98)
:)
Everything but the forward and back buttons seem to work with no problems and the rendering IS fast. The only strange thing I see is graphics sometimes "jumping" a little when I hit a link.
I can't wait to get home and mess with the linux release
FinkPloyd
OK, he's too hard on hemos. But he is definitely right about Slashdot suffering from MSWindows infestation. Slashdot needs to go back a little more to its roots, for sure.
What bothers me is the several other articles which claim it's blindingly fast - on this machine it's quite the opposite.
Actually I think that most of the comments about speed are about the speed of HTML & CSS rendering (which is fast), not the speed of browser behaviour, which still is quite slow because of the lack of optimization.
And is there truly no way of setting up a proxy host? I've looked, and I can't find one.
I hear that this has been asked frequently on Mozilla newsgroups. So you'll propably find some answers by searching for it in Deja.com.
--
Midgard Project - Open Source CMS
And is there truly no way of setting up a proxy host? I've looked, and I can't find one.
I am sure there is a way. For our Solaris boxen at work we have a shell script do things let set the proxy from the command line and set the size of the window, etc... You might have to do some digging to find the exact syntax that you have to pass Mo-zilla though.
www.jackasscritics.com
Slashdot used to post browser stats of recent visits to the site. I can't find them any more (where'd they go, or has my playing with my preferences accidentally lost them from my view?), but as I recall, there were a _lot_ of people using Windows.
Oh, I have done some digging, and come up with several different ways of setting proxies, all of which involve editing prefs50.js, and none of which work.
Not wanting to moan, but something as fundamental as this should at least be mentioned in the release notes, even if just to say "this doesn't work".
Like the subject says. Pity, I want to try it out on my Alpha. This particular post comes from Mozilla, but it's an oooold Mozilla (with Motif interface, if that tells you anything :) )
-- Rick
Check the bug database. If it's not in there, then add it. Bugzilla is too cool.
--
Make mine methylphenidate.
The Linux binary is about twice as big because of problems with the amount of shared libraries used. In each of these shared libraries, there is a huge table of all exported symbols. Windows .DLL files are not truly Position Independent Code, and therefore are much smaller. .DLL files get loaded for each time it is needed. In the case of mozilla, this may be the optimal solution, as a shared lib will only get loaded once, anyway.
The advantage of the Linux way is that a shared library only gets loaded into memory once, whereas Windows
The mozilla team is researching ways to reduce this huge code size, as is my understanding.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I picked this up in the mozilla newsgroups and bugzilla. (Yes, this is registered as a bug. As is the MAC binary size).
I think the idea of offering wider platform support would probably be well advised, especially for Sparc stations. I was kind of hoping to see how good it does with XML but I wasn't able to get it to work on my Ultra here at work.
I do understand that it is Pre-ALPHA ware but with there being a Sun-Netscape aliance one would think that with this being the sucessor of Netscape 4.x there might be something for Solaris on SparcStations.
Oh well, can't get everything you want in life now can ya. Well, not yet.
Disclamer - Opinion of Person
There is a good reason why HotJava 3 hasn't been updated in a long time, and it ISN'T because Sun is working on a new release. Trust me friend, that road is a dead end.
Disclamer - Opinion of Person
I downloaded it this morning.
The render speed... my heart...
I'm drooling for 5.0
It's a thankless job, but I've got a lot of Karma to burn off
Yes, I'm using kfm right now. It does most things Netscape ...
can do, and is very fast and prettier than 'scape. It does some
jscript, but not as well as Netecape. I never use Netscape
except in a few situations where Kfm lacks features
More on that below.
First, why do you think you'll get flamed for mentioning KDE here?
I can't believe that you have to apologize for yourself by stating
that you're using WindowMaker and GMC. Does that make you
o.k. ? You know who is sponsoring Mozilla? AOL. You get
flamed for metioning that because slashdotters don't want to
be reminded of it.
Kde has an excellent filemanager with inegrated browser -
much nicer than GMC. It is much more pleasant to use than
Netscape or Mozilla, in my opinion, although Mozilla for Windoze
is nice.
There is one situatiion in which it will crash while browsing
when certain cookies are presented. Kfm can't decide what
to do with these cookies and gets in an endless loop. However,
this has only happened on 2 or 3 sites out of thousands. I;m
sure they will fix that.
No Java. It may eventually be integrated - but not until
Java is better implemented on Linux generally.
Regarding what is "cool" and getting flamed, the upcoming
next release will feature better graphics for Kde and the 2.0
version is *much* nicer and more versatile than WindowMaker
with or without GMC. (You can use Kde with WindowMaker
which supports it well, though. Not just the filemanager, but
everything but the window manager which you can replace
with WMaker.)
I think WindowMaker looks good, but I tire of the blocky icons
and dock. I guaranteee you that you will be impressed with
the screenshots of the 2.0 desktop for Kde and the themes.
Granted, due to color limitation gradients don't look good with
the current version but they will be as good as any with the
2.0 version.
Anyway, as a general web browser for surfing, downloading and
email Kfm is vastly superior to anything else available for
Linux right now. I suspect that when Mozilla reaches beta
or release status Mozilla will be better, but then Kfm will also
continue to improve. Give them credit for doing a good job
without the backing of a billion dollar corporation like AOL -
Netscape which backs Mozilla.
I would think you would just link to the ftp site, or at least the Linux version.
--
I suggest you go and post this on netscape.public.mozilla.performance.size-matters. Try news.mozilla.org as the news server, although I think this might propogate to most news servers.
Should make for an interesting thread!
This is the correct URL:
ftp://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla/releases/m7/
> One thing that makes me irritated with both M$IE and Navigator is that they were designed for preemptive multitasking
My heart really bleeds and bleeds. When MacOS joins the 70's then all will be happy again.
I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
How is it for stability?
The previous Mozillas just didn't 'feel' solid. Has that changed any?
This is what I get when I try to run it in Slack 4.0... I'm running a beta copy of slackware however, from when I had ethernet back at school.
e /jay/rvplayer5.0 s o: undefined symbol: __vt_8iostream.3ios
ohhh ethernet, how I long for thee.
MOZILLA_FIVE_HOME=/arnold/home/jay/moz/package LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/arnold/home/jay/moz/package:/hom
MOZ_PROGRAM=./apprunner
moz_debug=0
moz_debugger=
./apprunner: error in loading shared libraries
/arnold/home/jay/moz/package/libraptorhtmlpars.
.. I also read that the binaries don't work on RH6, which might be the same reason they don't work on Slackware right now.
we are being invaded.
support gun control: take guns from cops
IIRC, there was a LARGE amount of anti-KDE feeling in general mostly because KDE was dependent on the QT toolkit. Opera, which looks to kick MAJOR ass, and is definitely the browser I'm going to be running (even if it only has HALF of the features of the Windows version) is also based on the QT toolkit. What is Mozilla based on? Forgive my ignorance, I can't recall if they're still using the Motif/Lesstif libraries or if they're now using the GTK.... This should be interesting. Opera, most likely (unless there is a HUGE amount of *polite* email requesting otherwise) will not include the source code for their browser.
/. properly yet) but when do we get that killer browser? IE is nice, it's a pretty little toy, but I don't like it enough that I'd want to run it on my machine. Even if M$ DID release it for Linux.
Personally, I have a bit of a problem w/ that, but Mozilla (while nice) has been disappointing (the betas, at least.) Yeah, I know they're only betas- but when can we get a NON-BLOATED browser that works with source and fully free licenses? (Just because it's not the GPL doesn't mean it ain't free, BTW) I will definitely try out the final version of Mozilla, don't get me wrong- and the Konqueror kicks MAJOR ass (what, don't you know what it is? time to get into some CVS, methinks...) but so far Konqy is still lacking in some HTML/Java support (it doesn't render out dear
The slowness is a known problem. Basically the browser is rendering itself too often and rendering parts that haven't been exposed or don't need to be newly rendered. I think it has something to do with the layer built on top of gtk. In Windows the browser feels much faster.
Hey dufus, the only way Netscape can increase its market share
.....
is for it to be preinstalled, or if AOL uses Mozilla instead of IE
for its browser engine, or if the masses stop using 'doze and use
systems which don't suport IE or which favor Netscape (which
if almost anything but MS Windows).
Nobody is going to waste his time downloading and installng
Mozilla when IE comes free with Windows. Unless
1. the person experiences too many problems with IE but
that is unlikely. Most Windows users are so lazy they will
keep using MS software or whatever came preinsalled and
don't even change their home pages from the default portal
sites. They will continue using IE even if it crashes often.
2. the person has nerd tendancies or dislikes MS for some
reason (but he or she is probably already using Netscape
with Linux or some other unix).
3. the person inadvertently gets Mozilla by installing something
like NeoPlanet because it looks "cool"
Likewise, corporations are increasingly using IE as their
browser for intranets and the internet because it is so well
inegrated with Windows. This will not change until Windows
is no longer the predominant OS on desktops in corporations
and government. (Servers don't matter here. MS has already
lost the server battle - so what! ).
Therefore, it seems very unlikely that Mozilla will have any
significant effect on Netscape's market share (unless AOL
makes Mozilla the default browser for its client bringing in
up to 20 million new users with AOL 5.0) or unless
Linux or something else replaces Windows as the standard
desktop system in the busienss and home user markets..
Splashdot - News for Turds - Stuff that Splatters
I had this problem at first too. This seems to be the 'stuffit' problem. Files compressed with Stuffit 5.x seem to appear corrupted to Stuffit 4.x or below. Grab a stuffit update from . After updating stuffit the file decompressed fine and M7 seems much nicer than M5. -- Posting from M7
I remember seeing this a while ago, but can't find it now. It has to deal with the amount of debugging symbols and stuff in the Linux binaries, plus there are some things in the Linux version that work and are compiled in, but that don't work and thus are not compiled in with the Windows version.
Some nerds (like myself) are forced to support NT boxen at work. All well. I'm posting this with M7, and I like it :)
Gonna abuse the browser and see if I can contribute something back to Mozilla.
When the final is released, it will become my companies standard. Muhahaha!
It's a known bug that Back and Forward don't work for URLs entered by hand in Linux.
(That means they'll fix it)
Proxy looks to still be broken. Take a look at Bug 8859 at bugzilla.
When it get fixed, just try adding user_pref("network.proxy.http", "localhost:8000"); to the file prefs50.js
Ok, I don't use RH.
Did anyone get this working with Slack.
I just want to know if you did. I'll play a little but it seems I'm missing some shared object files.
Steven Rostedt
-- Nevermind
I'm not sure what you mean by 'anything with CSS on it seems to completely throw the browser into a funk' -- can you be more specific?
However, yes, image loading (especially loading the same, resized, tiny gif multiple times) is hit and miss. Most of this will be addressed in the next few weeks as a rewritten networking module (Necko) is landed. (I'm sure lots of bugs will need to be shaken out, but I expect a lot of things will automagically start working (i.e., the fixes are on that branch, not the M7 branch).
Rather slim pickings for platform binaries, don't ya think?
If they really wanna get this thing out there and get it tested, I would
think that wider platform binary availablity wouldn't be a bad idea.
Check out Samples-> demo#14
:(
also on a side note, when I hit the preview button, here it seem to send it into an infinate loop
Chelloveck
I give up on debugging. From now on, SIGSEGV is a feature.
It seems pretty slow under Linux than Win32. So I've decided to do my homework.
:((
With double buffering turned off, all the rendering details are revealed. To my greatest surprise, moving from button to button causes the whole browser to repaint for more than 3 times!! It is even funnier when I resize the window. Well, if this is so called Gecko Engine, I would say, it needs more work.
Nevertheless, M7 on Win32 works much better, but I do not have the resource to do a recompilation on win32. The whole compilation on my poor PII 64M laptop took 3 hours to finish..
Why IE 5 is not the best:
1. Not standards compliant
2. Not cross platform
3. Not deletable from my hard drive
4. Bloated piece of crap
5. Prone to crash OS
If you want to say that IE does not have alot of competition now that is one thing, but to say it is superior or cool is a joke.
Big Iron? What big Iron? Do you mean transferring over all of the Win 32 API's to Linux and setting up a registry in your home directory like they did with IE on Solaris?
Netscape is the standard on Linux, Word Perfect has had over a million downloads, etc. KDE office is ramping up. Samba, Appache, and Sendmail rule the web. MS has no market share and no mindshare in the Linux world.
Do you think IE is going to port over their big apps to Linux overnight and compete with superior, native, free Linux apps? What percentage of MS's success is due to controlling the Windows API's? If you or MS think there is no race it is only because you missed the starting pistol? If the early bird gets the worm, what does the latecomer get?
But bear in mind that R7 is a pre-alpa.
...and that IE5 doesn't implement CSS1.
sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
Perfect argument that MS is a monopoly and needs regulated/ broken up.
What are they thinking? Seems like everybody on Linux is anxious to replicate the DLL hell of Windoze.
The reason is one of good, modern component-based software design. It's the same reason that I have dynamically loadable kernel modules on my Linux system: I shouldn't have to pay for the memory penalty of a Javascript interpreter if I have Javascript turned off, and I shouldn't have to pay the resource cost of loading Netscape's own DNS lookup software if my local machine is a DNS server.
Oh, an aside: DLL hell is caused not by using dynamically loadable components but by other Win32 brain damage such as no PIC and no support for versioning of DLLs (something which, I might add, the Unix community have solved extremely simply and elegantly).
sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
As of MacOS 8.6, MacOS has a pre-emptive micro-kernel underneath everything.
Not everybody on WinXX is using it at work. For example, I'm reading from my Win95 box at home right now.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Posted by FascDot Killed My Previous Use:
Is it just me or has the Mozilla project been moving more quickly since jwz left?
---
Put Hemos through English 101!
Best thing is it automatically forgoes the /. adds. Anyone else notice.
;) - G
No crashes but let me pop a few windows and we'll see
You got it right. "Kaboom" has only one "a".
:-)
I was not aware that IE had won. Guess I'll have to move to it. Can you post the link for the Linux binaries? glibc-2.1 would be best. Thanks.
Feel free to slap me around if the answer to this in in some documentation, but why, exactly, does the Win32 Mozilla pass everything to a DOS box?
It tries to be platform-neutral, but it's not. Trivial little Linux stories get posted (such as "The Wall Street Journal had a 2-paragraph article on Linux, if you care" or "Civ:CTP is being ported"), but important win32 stuff (such as "Civ:CTP came out in the first place") is ignored.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
I do not know much about Linux, but on the Win32 platform, being statically linked to many DLL can kill your application's boot performance. The system has to load every DLL to which an application is statically linked when the application boots. On the other hand, a DLL to which the application is not statically linked (for example, a DLL that is loaded on your application's behalf by OLE, or a DLL that is delay loaded with the linker setting they added in Visual C 6) is only loaded on demand. When tuning the boot performance of the app. I develop prior to the release of its latest version, I was able to cut SECONDS off of the boot time by being cleverer about delay loading DLLs, and being statically linked to less stuff. For example, if you use WININET but don't connect to the internet until the user says "please connect", being statically linked to WININET is wasteful and will add many millions of cycles to boot time on a memory constrained system as the WININET DLL is faulted in from the slow disk.
/br or not). This data structure is static for the duration of the process. However, for the application to boot this tag table may not be necessary; it's only needed the first time a document is parsed. So the solution is to maintain a static pointer to the table that is initially NULL, then the table gets initialized the first time it is accessed. Since the table doesn't have to be faulted in from disk during boot, several million CPU cycles will be cut from boot time, compared to a cost of only 2-3 cycles to check if the pointer is NULL each time before using the table.
At boot time, every disk page that you can avoid reading is precious. Another technique we use in with our application is delay initialization of static structures. For example, an HTML parser needs a table of HTML tags and their properties (e.g. is br a spanning tag for which I should look for a
Boot time is important if you want a user to make regular user of your app. Many a time I will make small edits to a piece of source code in notepad just because it boots faster than visual studio, which is a clearly superior editor in most other respects.
http://www.laural.com/
Ordinary Joe, huh? That is the kind of intellectually stimulating reply I would expect from an ordinary AC such as yourself. I am a web developer. I write cross-browser pages. I know from experience(and a lot of it) that IE is generally much easier to write for.
That is on top of all the stuff I said before about end-user usability. As far as standards, I like the efforts being made with Mozilla, but as it stands now IE is better overall.
I have a woman and money. Life is good.
Quick question everyone:
When printing a page WHY does it have to be downloaded again? Surely, if it's sitting there in front of me it doesn't have to be downloaded once more?
No attempt is made to even use a cached version...
Most bizarre.
Paul
*thwack*
Of course IE is easier to write for, they keep putting proprietary tags like marquee bgsound and all that crap in.
Basically, they're making their own standards, and since everyone thinks its standard, MS becomes the standard.
Its kind of funny, considering MS was on the W3C standards committee. They *could* have suggested tags that did the same things that the proprietary tags did go into HTML 4.0...
The linux tarball is much bigger becasue all of the binaries and libries contain debuging information. If you want to make them smaller run strip on all the binaries and on all of the *.so (shared libs). I don't recomand running strip on *.a as it is going to break them.
It does, but not completely
narbey
-- "The evil stops here" -Petr
yes but it's not Mozilla. A very important distinction for me.
narbey
-- "The evil stops here" -Petr
IE has 0% market share with non-Windows users.
Mark
Yeah, Linux has less than 25% of the desktop market share
now too.
As for resurrecting amigas:
Check out http://www.antigravity.com
Oh, really? Suppose a major ISP switched to Netscape with it's 15 million users. What would that do to your supposed 75% market share?
And meanwhile, M$ falls even further behind in the race for developing Linux Apps.
Because the vast majority of slashdotters use Windows 95. Just check the stats page.
It tries to run but silently exits:
mark@mail:/usr/local/mozilla/package>./mozilla-
MOZILLA_FIVE_HOME=/usr/local/mozilla/package
LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/local/mozilla/package
MOZ_PROGRAM=./apprunner
moz_debug=0
moz_debugger=
Talkback loaded Ok.
Registered Ok
*** Registering html library
mark@mail:/usr/local/mozilla/package>
???
| But the fact is that Netscape in all of the
| stats has under 25% of the
| market share out there now.
Does this really matter? Mozilla is, for all intents and purposes, a *new* product. How much market share do most brand new products have compared to an established product?
| For all intents and purposes,
| Netscape/Mozilla is dead.
... and by your logic, so is every product that doesn't have most/all of the market share. Good for competition and the improvement of software, that is.
-- Rick
Oh GREAT!!! So I'll just go home, delete NS4.6 and grab that hot new copy of IE for linux, baybee!!! Erm, hold on. Nope. I can't seem to find that URL of where to get IE for linux from. You don't happen to have that on you, hrmm?
vanRijn
Well, what most ppl are refering to when they say "blindingly fast" is the rendering, not the loading or downloading (or lack of caching). To test and see if this part is fast on you're machine, try loading a page (complicated ones are better) and then resizing the window (maximize, unmaximize, resize, something). When you do this, the entire page must be redrawn from what's in memory. Then try and compare that (using the same page) with Communicator IE and see if you can tell difference.
The speed of the other things will come when the code is optomized --(recurring theme).
I'm one of those users who has switched to IE. I'm planning to give ns 5 a try though and I think a lot of other recently switched users are planning the same thing.
I think there's a good explanation for ie's bigger marketshare: at this moment it's the better browser. People may not like that because they don't like ms marketing FUD.
Everybody seems to be really enthousiastic about standards support. Most people don't seem to realize that those masses of ns/ie 3.x, 4.x users are not going to go away. In other words running a standards compliant site means excluding all but mozzilla users (unless you don't use the advanced stuff).
I haven't downloaded M7 yet (and I don't think I will). I took a look at M5 though and I think it was very ugly to look at (it worked pretty well though). People have been talking about the browser being so configurable and all but I think it should look cool by default (I'm too lazy to start editing all sorts of files just to change the look and feel). I hope people at netscape will pay attention to this (for example by getting some good graphics people to work on this issue). Right now just about everything is plain ugly: the icons suck, the proportions of buttons and everything suck. Messenger in particular is very ugly. Half of the success of IE is the result of the fact that ms has a better looking browser. Ns 3 was better then ie 3 but ie 3 just looked cooler. Ns 4 was plain ugly and ie 4 looked even more cooler. I think look and feel is a very important aspect of a program and ns should definately improve on this.
Enough with the negative stuff. I think ns 5 will be a very cool program and more importantly, I think there are a lot of people who are thinking the same. Peoples expectations about this browser are very high (standards compliant, small, fast, stable & loaded with cool features). I think people at netscape should be very careful with releasing the browser because the quality of the first release can make it or break it. I expect masses of people to download this thing as soon as its released. It will get lots of attention in the media. If marketed in the right way and if it really is a cool program, ns 5 will probably recover most of its marketshare in the first weeks and will blow away ie in the months after that.
However, I expect microsoft to launch a counter attack at about the same time. They have pretty smart marketing people and they must realize that ns 5 will be a threat to them. So I expect a vastly improved ie 6 round about the same time.
Jilles
Nope, your post isn't flamebait, it's a troll. Your already dismissing mozilla before a stable release even comes out, and only because netscape supposedly only has 25% or less of the market. I might add, that 25% of the market is far from dead, even if those numbers happen to be true. (I somewhat doubt it.) :)
now, if you want to go and use IE on windows, go for it. As long as microsoft obeys standards (ha) I really don't care how many people use it. It's their problem, not mine. I'd keep using mozilla, and the same goes for most people running linux. (ok, so I do run lynx sometimes ). Until something better comes along for both linux and unix though, netscape/mozilla can only be as dead as linux is, and well, if you want to make the claim that linux is dead, I think there are plenty of peole here that would be willing to argue that point.
Why does it matter what other people are using? Use what you think is best.
When ever I try to run it I get an error saying ATSUnicodeLib cannot be found. I suspect this is because I am still using 8.1. Any work arounds or other places where I should post this?
For all intents and purposes, Netscape/Mozilla is dead. Let's just let it be and move on. Netscape lost. IE won. I mean really.
Yea, I'll consider moving to IE when it becomes an usable browser and not just a marketing tool for a monopolistic company.
But in the while, say, how much is the salary in that Microsoft anti-Linux team? Sounds kinda cool, especially working side-by-side with intelligent people like you! ;-)
So screw you. At least that seems to be the Linux attitude.
You don't have to install the "crappy netscape download assistant," nor do you have to keep it installed. Uninstalling it seems to make more sense than replacing the browser.
IE4 and 5 have had incremental reflow rendering
well before the vaunted "Gecko/Raptor"
engine.
IE4 and 5 have support for XML, XSL, OSD,
CDF, RDF, XSchema, pluggable scripting
engine, related links (ala Netscape smart
browsing), downloadable chrome too. Also,
better history navigator, better search interface, better management of cookies.
Not to mention, the ability to save out the complete STATE of a page, including all the form fields that were filled out and the current dump of all the JavaScript state.
So in IE5, you could come back to a page a week later after quiting the browser, and have everything exactly the way it was, including form fields and layer positions.
IE5 also has auto-completition on everything. Whenever I go to any web page with form fields, I can hit tab to browse through my history for that field just like BASH on Linux.
Netscape is so utterly pathetically behind, it's crazy. How did they fall so far behind with such a head start?
And a few open-source hackers contributing to the tree is going to help? BAHAHAHAH.
For all intents and purposes, Netscape/Mozilla is dead.
:)
Oh brother.
I'm working my way through O'Reilly's DHTML reference book, I cannot WAIT until one of the browsers actually follows STANDARDS.
And Mozilla is the only one doing it.
IE might just shut itself off. Keep in mind that Windows may be popular in the US and Europe, but that's not the world by a long shot. Wait and see, what comes comes, and I'll be prepared to take a contract working on it
This is a development version. For development it is better to just link shared, so u don't have to link the executebale everytime u change one of the libraries. Mozilla has many libraries.
The little war we have going over the IE vs. Navigator is an idiotic waste of disk space. First of all, I use Linux, I use Windows. The time I spend in windows won't make me less of a geek, just like the time I spend in Linux doesn't make me more of a geek. It's what you do in either of those operating systems that makes or breaks a geek. I'd rather see a guy with windows editing the registry than see some of our linux users who get uptight about editing their .xinitrc.
/.ers that can barely handle shell scripting, and they tend to post just to go for the geek chic... These are the same folks that balk at recompiling the kernel (with a nice TK script no less!) and think that VI is the number of the horse that won the Preakness.
Secondly, IE 5.0 beats the tar out of Nutscrape 4.5 on the win32 platform. The full screen mode is cool, it loads faster, (yes, because it's already partially loaded as your file manager) it renders faster, it has a cleaner interface, and a whole slew of other things.
On Linux, we have no choice. KFM is an ok browser, but it still needs support for alot of things.
On the win32 platform it comes down to one thing, IE wanted to win more than Nutscrape. Netscape got old and fat and lazy, and they got beaten.
I don't know how many of you were there when the tarballs were released, but I seem to recall that the first big decision the OSS geeks made with Mozilla was to dump 80% of the existing source code and start from scratch. The rendering engine was a nightmare.
So, Netscape/Mozilla is dead. This is son of Mozilla!
Third, IMHO, the M releases are a mistake. They should not be distributing binaries, but instead they should be distributing source. The logic being that if you are unable to compile the program, you can't run the program. This makes them less likely to get assinine comments from pseudo-geeks, or hacker wanna-be's. We all know that there are some
This is a prerelease of opensource software. We are very understanding of other "pre-releases" so lets do the same for this one. How long have we been humoring Enlightenment?? (Are we still on DR 0.14?) We seem to think that because this is a "Company" we are allowed to expect more. It's just not true.
Oh, and as to the IE market share, 3 years ago, IE had 2% of the market share... So I guess it died 3 years ago...
The moral: Use what you find useful, and then ridicule the beejeezus out of anybody that uses something you find useless.
That's my $0.02, and I'll probably get change.
~HAMNRYE
Sure the download is fast and the page rendering is fast. But I think they should remove the my netscape button if it won't load the page. It hasn't loaded it from the begining. Heck even that old crappy browser HotJava will load it. Mozilla barfs every time on Win32 that is. Linux doesn't work with my video card here at home.
Good is never enough, when you dream of being great!
Hi, I was looking on the sun site, and found a few interesting tidbits.
First off, HotJava 3, apparently it's old, so I guess I'm way behind the boat here, but I downloaded it. It's only ~2MB (Plus the JDK) and seems very fast. It also renders pages rather oddly, a lot like Mozilla really.
I'm not sure if the code is available, but it sounded as though Sun was going to release the code if they haven't already.
Also, this article on Netscape/AOL & Sun Java integration is interesting:
http://java.sun.com/pr/1999/06/pr990616-02.html
Lastly, as a true alternative, have any of you tried KDE's KFM browser? I know that KDE is evil stuff with most Slashdotters, but apparently their licence is "free-er" than Netscape's.
It's a very fast browser, that does almost everything! (except javascript and java, to be integrated into KDE 2)
BTW, please don't flame me about mentioning KDE, I use WindowMaker and GMC, and KFM. They're all great!
I'm typing this in from M7 and it seems to be working fine.
The only thing I'm really missing is popup menus and multiple back and forwards.
Of course, when I tried M6 it crashed so hard even the hard reboot wouldn't work...
I agree that the GUI must be good looking to get users to switch, however, a browser doesn't live by GUI alone. Even more important are the features and functionality. That's the part of the project being worked on the most right now. The current default UI is made to be functional and nothing else. The idea of having a very good default UI has already been talked about at MozillaZine.org. (It's in the Old News section now and is the largest thread they've ever seen over there, I do NOT recomend taking the time to read through it as it is very redundant [It's more of an argument than an informative discution, but a few good points came out of it]).
Try www.statmarket.com. Those numbers are hard to argue with.
I'm working on trying to recreate a bug in mozilla, seemingly only my homecomputer does this. It has been reported to bugzilla but they can't recreate it. I'm asking anybody who also has this problem to contact me with this build and basic system information. (build#/processor/motherboard/memory/internet connection speed/windows version/etc.)
On loading of a url frequently images (and sometimes the pages themselves) are not loading and giving the error. seems to be a timeout error
nsDocumentBindInfo::OnStopBinding: Load of URL 'http://someurl' failed
Someone mentioned the Mac version, but there are Solaris and HP-UX builds as well and I'm sure *someone* uses them.
I have a woman and money. Life is good.
Whoops--it just crashed. And when I tried to use the Full Circle Talkback, it gave me a Type 11! Whooooo. . .still, it worked for quite awhile (a couple hours)going from everywhere from CNN to superbad.com before that happened; I'll keep using it and see where it goes from here.
Um...I have Win95 and Linux on my machine and I use Linux almost all of the time, but when I'm in Windows I use IE(5).
i llCallIt). Now, I realize that Mozilla is in development and is not optimized, but even IE 4 was better.
If you don't think its usable, then I doubt you've seen as much as a screenshot of it. It has many more features, is renders incredibly fast(faster than Gecko/Raptor/ngLayout/newLayout/whateverElseTheyW
Someone already mentioned IE's ability to save state and remember previous entries in form fields. It also has a pretty consistent interface for browsing files, history, bookmarks, etc.
Windows has terrible stability problems, but I have had far fewer problems with IE itself than I have with Netscape 4.x. IE is now a better browser than any version of Netscape or Mozilla. I only hope Mozilla will compare when it is done. Will it ever be done? I downloaded the code March 31, 1998 and that browser was more complete(albeit basically 4.0) than what it is now(a year and three months is a LONG time).
I have a woman and money. Life is good.
You don't think so? Check this out. Hard numbers: StatMarket
that freaking crappy "netscape download assistant" if it does i am kissing mozilla good by and shelling out the bucks for opera!
I tried looking at (what I took to be) largely HTML/CSS 1.0 pages to see what they look like with a 'fully compliant' browser, and it had trouble flipping back and forth between pages with the 'forward' and 'back' buttons; you'd think that's a pretty serious breach in functionality (even re-typing in the URL of one of the pages didn't work).
But OH that page rendering speed is something to marvel at. I hope they get it working soon!
"Oh, I hope he doesn't give us halyatchkies," said Heinrich.
First off, the FTP site is BLAZING fast! I downloaded the whole 9megger in about 10 seconds with my cable modem... thats rare.
Anyway M7 is a definite improvement over M5 (which I used last). The text editor widget that I am using now takes a little getting used to though... but it's fast and hasn't crashed yet.
There are still some rendering problems, and keyboard navigation is just plain broken, but when this thing is done, my god it will kick some arse!
Why is the Linux-i686 tar.gz nearly twice as big as the Windows .zip? Is there a difference? (besides that one is for Linux and one for windows :P)
...because it feels about an order of magnitude slower than Communicator 4.6 on this Linux box.
Coupled with the fact the Proxy preferences dialog doesn't work (try setting a proxy manually), and the (IMHO) extreme ugliness of the whole browser, and I'm somewhat less than excited.
most ppl here prob dont care ( :P ) but the Mac binaries (at least for me) seem to be corrupted...anyone else get this?
"There is no spoon" - Neo, The Matrix
How exactly do the scroll bars not work. It was my understanding that they finally fixed the scroll bars for M7.?? If the scroll bars don't work in specific cases and you can recreate it on another win box I would suggest reporting it to bugzilla
Totally agree.. do we actually *want* Netscape to "win"? Hell no. Look where they were headed with that bloated Communicator suite..
As far as only having 25% installed base.. bullhockey. Maybe in business since IE is installed by default, but among home users I see maybe 1 in 10 Windroids using Explorer. I was going to use it on my Mac until I tried using it to buy something and it crashed halfway through a secure transaction, most conveniently after my credit card # had been entered.. now that's a nail biter. Anyway..
Winusers often adamantly prefer Netscape, and with good reason.. it's one small way that they're NOT getting screwed every minute they are in front of their monitor. At least IMHO...
There's no way 75% of the internet community is just running out and denovo installing Explorer. No frikkin' way...
. . .though I think it's more of a workout for the machine then it is for M7 ;-) (I've also got 8.6 on that poor thing, and only about 83MB of hard drive space left). It took about a minute 10 sec. for the window to render, but once it did it's lightening fast going from place to place! WHOO-HOO! Let's see how long it can run before it crashes. I'll keep you posted. . .
mmmmmmm... good bud 8-)
plain truth will probably be edited out.
"Im goin' hoeuuume"
AC
a major ISP???
you mean like America OnLine???
there's NOOOO way that would happen...
;)
I just D/Led it here and it seems to be ok. More than likely, the answer given by the other responder is right on target. D/L a newer version of Stuffit (fewer crashes too!).
Justin
IE has 0% market share with non-Windows users.
Not true, iirc there's a Mac version of IE.
Compared to what? Lynx? Unless you're using Windows and Opera (what I do when I'm in Windows), if you use Linux, *any* improvement in Navigator is a good thing.
| Try www.statmarket.com. Those numbers are hard
:)
| to argue with.
You're missing the point, Mooboy. Mozilla'a not Navigator - it's a new product. New rendering engine, new interface, etc. So who cares how much market share IE has vs Netscape? It's largely irrelevant to Mozilla.
If AOL decides to integrate Mozilla when it's stable enough to be release quality, that's instant Mozilla market share. Something to think about if you're *that* paranoid about making sure you run whar everyone else runs.
-- Rick
Yes, but look carefully. Macs use cooperative multitasking. A cheap way to "speed up" a program is just to not hand the CPU over. One reason I really loathe M$IE is that it does something weird with interrupts, and keeps grabbing massive amounts of CPU time on the Mac. Try running something in the background, and it'll be slow. Or, try Peek-A-Boo, a Mac process analyzer...M$IE will eat lots of CPU time (or not...I don't know whether it gets "blamed" for its interrupt time). There's some program out that moves a ball in the menubar every time (or ten times or whatever) it recieves a WaitNextEvent()...you could try installing that and seeing if Navigator is just more CPU hungry.
One thing that makes me irritated with both M$IE and Navigator is that they were designed for preemptive multitasking, and as a result, they just aren't nice to other programs on a Mac. When Navigator's rendering a page, it takes the CPU over completely. If anything's going on in the background, and you visit a page with a massive table...well, I hope whatever you're doing in the background isn't critical.
what is the most important thing ?
stability or good looks ?
i know what i want
and i know mozilla will be more stable then ie
The reason i use netscape under windows is because it doesn't show that irritating urge to take down your windows every half hour, and believe me I've used all ie's, they all are as much intertwined with windows that if they go down, it goes down
Even if you tell it to run in a separate process, an option which I hold for a placebo, since I notice no difference in stability whatsoever.
And now that I've seen Mozilla's new interface ie adepts have no excuse anymore to stick with their "browser".
Weeelll...I always saw /. as sort of platform-neutral. UNIX people, Linux people, BeOS, Mac, even Win and OS/2 people congregate here. And more.
Oh give it a rest. If you can't figure out how to find the unix download you're too retarded to be here.
Getting much, much better. I very much like the look and feel, and it seems to play well with our firewall pretty nicely. Still some problems with resizing, but I'm pretty confident that this will come.
Bravo.
... and retire Hemos.
Dude, that is not cool. So he got the wrong damn link. Boohoo. Why don't you lay off the guy? It's not like he gets paid for this.
-- Terry
Oh please. This is a nerd site with a heavy Linux slant, not a pure *Nix site. If you want a clue, get an account you mere AC!
I'm sure "SlashdotMedia" will improve on all the wonders that Dice Holdings blessed us all with
Anybody know how to get M7 to go through a http proxy? I remember seeing something about modifying prefs.js, but I can't find it anymore.
Retire Hemos? Who next? Batgirl, Steve Urkel? or Marvin and Wendy(the Wonder Twins)? You just don't understand why CmndrTaco keeps Hemos around, my friend.
"Well that's a dumb idea" -- Some consultant(I think Peter Card) from Jupiter Group about Embedded Linux
And the latest Mac MSIE is supposed to be a lot more stable then Naviagor.
Try the nested tables in both browsers.
Not FUD. Truth.
I used to feel like this when I used the Mac all the time. Mac publications put out a bunch of feel-good stuff, and Mac people start running around yelling that "MS is dead meat." Now it's a bunch of Linux people. Gentlement, there *ain't* much of a race to develop Linux apps. Yeah, people are just *falling* over themselves to come out with Linux word processors, games, graphics programs, and so on. There have been a few ports, yes. And a few Linux-only proggies. But I wouldn't even begin to call it a "race" yet. M$ hasn't really even brought its big iron to bear on Linux yet...
Maybe in 5 years things will be different. I'd be nice. But not now.
I hope neither wins. M$'s main problem is lack of competition...hence, no motivation or Darwinism. AOL...well, same thing for a long time (you want an easy online experience? AOL!). I'd love to see a decade-long drawn out slugfest between the two giants. They'd start coming out with compelling products and so on. Competition between the two is good. Either winning is bad. Right now, M$ has the upper hand, so I'm rooting for AOL.
And the Mac has something like 11% existing OS market share. And Linux has more like half that. And both of them are extremely influential, even if you don't use either. Both are important.
As long as there's a viable alternative to M$IE, with a significant chunk of market share, MSIE will stay good. If it "wins", and buys Mozilla or something, then problems exist. (You want to use the Web? Sure thing. Of course, you have to submit to M$ monitoring built in to MSIE...but that's the price you pay. You can use Lynx or Opera of course...but we've pushed all MS-based content creators to write things in MSIE compatible format...so new flashy websites require MSIE...after all, by doing so, they only lose 1% of their audience (Lynx/Opera)!)
You have no idea what M$ would do if it controlled the only viable web browser. No conception.
And if you say you can just sit down with a Windows debugger (MS doesn't provide a free one like Linux and the Mac OS have) and crack MSIE so it doesn't send info about your movements to M$, well, that's difficult. M$ likes integrating everything into one neat package. Office, Windows, MSIE (which is part of Office 2000, BTW). You modify MSIE at all, and everything else stops working.
I have nightmares of MS without *any* competition.
I just D/Led it here and it seems to be ok. More than likely, the answer given by the other responder is right on target. D/L a newer version of Stuffit (fewer crashes too!).
Justin
I decided to get it anyway then delete it. very nice look+feel (much cleaner than ie better looking icons too) but the scrollbars don't work under win95.. Maybe I'll try it out with slack when i get home.
Lowmag.net
Doesn't seem appropriate to drool about something that is still slow...
Perhaps something's no good with my JRE - displaying windows seems slow, and they don't fully paint 'til they've been obscured, then uncovered.
Other than that, I tried loading some local files and I thought it was slower than Comm. 4.51. It also renders tables without side borders. Is that correct?
I'm not sure where they are, but I'm sure they exist.
Slashdot != News for Linux Nerds. Stuff that matters.
Though it might seem that way at times.