Slashdot Mirror
Creation of a Cybernation
Thanks to martin for pointing us over to a recent story about Cyber Yuga. It's essentially the formation of an online "nation", which some requirements for citizenship, including reading the Constitution and voting on changes to it, as well as some civic responsibility in running the "country". In any case, a very cool idea-will this be the future? What do you folks think?
* The US Gov't has an odd tendency to support it's citizens visiting overseas, through its consulates, the State Dept., et cetera.
* If you're over here in the States, they're less likely to suddenly revoke any of your benefits in a sudden wave of anti-immigrant fervor: it could happen, but it's less likely.
* You might be able to get away w/ lower income taxes than certain other nations (the more progressive Scandinavian nations come to mind, for instance). Then again, if that's *really* a concern, perhaps you should be considering somewhere in the Caribbean. <shrug>.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
-B
Ash and Hickory, straight-grained and true, make excellent bludgeons, dandy for the cudgeling of vegetarians.
One of the requirements for Prince Edward Island to join Canada as a Province in 1949 was that the Canadian Constitution be amended to decree the colour of margerine in Prince Edward Island.
Given that kind of lunacy (I can say disparaging things like that, having lost my Canadian residency, but retaining Citizenship), Secretary of Coca-Cola doesn't strike me as all that silly.
In Liberty, Rene
But I decided I don't trust a constitution that hasn't heard of the word "quorum".
From Article 2:
Two thirds of population has to vote FOR or AGAINST the change suggested by any citizen, including the Constitution changes. Fifty percent of this electorial body, plus one vote has to accept the suggestion in order for it to be applied.
Sudden thought:
Regards,
Terrorists can attack freedom, but only Congress can destroy it.
The problem with this theory and the reason why we will always have governments based on physical location (unless we get a unified government for all humans, but then we still wouldn't get the element of competition you're looking for) is that power comes from one place: the barrel of a gun. No Cyber-Policeman can help you if I shoot you dead in real life. Internet governments can only deal with internet problems, but it is physical problems that are the most fundamental to our existence. With all of our technological advancement, we are still physical creatures that need physical government for physical protection.
-
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It is possible for your mind to be so open that your brain falls out.
Canada is definitely not a pawn of the United States.
and isn't the last sylable really the only difference between the UN and the US?
You said: ..."/emacs" "dw" "ivi" "ESC" "n" "dw" "ivi" ...
>
> goddess there MUST be and easyer way...
There is.
shorter version of your way:
"/emacs" "cw" "vi" "ESC" "n" "." (repeat "n" "." until it says no more found)
Or do it my way:
:s/emacs/vi/g
It appears that what is *reallY* going to happen, in theory, is that all these people, citizens, ministers, secretaries, whatever you call them, are going to manage one big-assed website/server farm. Once a certain number of people are invovled, a plea will be made to the UN to have the server room recognized as it's own country with it's own laws. Afterwards, it could easily become a 'data haven'..
Won't fly.. but I see what they are trying to do.
Check this out: http://www.zolatimes.com/v2.26/mobilive.html
I think I meant to say :1,$ s/emacs/vi/g :)
You know what I mean.
No, you can't get out of taxes.. Foreign nationals in the US have to pay US taxes of some sort...sorry, thanks for playing, and now, these nice INS folks would like to talk to you
twenty sqare miles for servers? What are they running, NT?
The constitution makes it quite clear these guys only use M$ software & OSes.
I wouldn't sign up for that. Microsoft will be controlling these guys arses if they ever do anything useful. Until they change to apache/linux/perl/opensource that is. That's what the constitutions says too though: we can change stuff if we want to.
I still think it's a great idea, but it's all empty theorising until they get a good user base.
Cybernation.... That makes me laugh.... And who am i in all this? A Decepticon?
Hey! Let's build a clubhouse! And we can start our own nation inside! Yeah! And we'll have a password, and a club anthem, and a secret handshake, and a rope ladder that we'll let down only for our citizens! And if anyone gives us any trouble, we'll throw water balloons at them! It'll be neat!!!
Jeez, this is as bad as the people spending $$$ for Ultima Online characters.
A cyber-nation would not be new other than its "citizens" can meet and communicate easier.
How will this reconcile with many nations prohibitions against "dual-citizenship"?
Get ready for www.lizvegas.com !
Why build down, when you can just as easily build up?
if you have 20x20 meters of land, it would be just as difficult to excavate 20 meters deep as it would be to build a 20 meter high building.
Where's the Ministry for Silly Walks? :)
--
The Future: Some assembly required; batteries not included.
and start your own hydrographic nation. Or build on a shallow plateau that comes near but not quite rising above the ocean's surface in international waters. Flemish cap near Newfoundland is not too deep and sits just under international waters. Remember 75% of the earth's surface is not part of any nation. Just find a way to build on it and set up your own nation of Cyberia.
Actually, if you read that site, you'll find that in MOST cases you can NOT have dual citizenship. In certain individual cases the US Government will allow the recognition of dual-citizenship, but in the majority they do not.
The point of that site is saying as long as you're careful about it, it doesn't really matter. But its generally not a good idea to pass off a Canadian passport upon entry to the US if you're a US citizen, and vice versa. If you had true dual citizenship, you could use either citizenship at any time.
The point being that a lot of these "fake" countries -- and I'm not saying this one is this way -- are used as ways to "get back" at the US government, either in claiming to be able to live in the US but not live by its laws (like paying taxes) or other things. In that regard many are like cults, in that their primary intent is to thumb their collective noses at the countries that people are truely citizens of. If you were born in the US to canadian parents, yeah, maybe the US will let you keep dual citizenship (but I know a bunch of people who have been forced to choose), but in a B.S. case like this, if you tried using that citizenship in any way, I'd guess the weight of the US Government would come crashing down upon you.
...and we have our own religion, linuxism :^)
nmarshall
#include "standard_disclaimer.h"
R.U. SIRIUS: THE ONLY POSSIBLE RESPONSE
nmarshall
The law is that which it boldly asserted and plausibly maintained..
--Colonel Burr 1783
Trust me on this...technical abilities and social development are two phrases that DON'T belong in the same sentence! :)
This is nothing new, there's at least a half dozen other "global citizen" type scams that have been going on for years on the Internet. Usually they have you pay a stragely large amount of money for a passport and citizenship documents that wouldn't be recognized as legal proof of age at a movie theater, much less at any customs or immagration point in the world.
Its just stupid moneymaking schemes, or cult-like practices in some cases.
Lets see what do you get for your money (depending on how you push the issue with the government):
1) Useless passport and citizenship paperwork that won't be recognized by anyone.
or
2) You (at least in the US) revoke your US citizenship (you can't have dual citizenship in the US past the age of 18) and you learn REAL fast what a plus it really is in the world to be a US citizen.
Well, this is a neat idea, of course, this article doesn't tell us that much about it. My big question, I guess, is how this is going to change our concepts of socalization. I mean, governments have traditionally been based on geography, presuming comon interestes on that basis. If "cyber nations" get going, then you have governments based on comon interest, presumably. Can you really have a government with widely, geographically seperated individuals. Even some of the larger nations now are having problems.
As a side note, I think a requirement for becoming a UN member is already having land. They can't be granted land by the UN, since the UN doesn't actually have any land to grant.
Still, this is an interesting idea...
---------
Though... the US does do a damn fine job of protecting its citizens who do trash talk other governments, who might not be so permissable as the US.
just look here...
nmarshall
#include "standard_disclaimer.h"
R.U. SIRIUS: THE ONLY POSSIBLE RESPONSE
nmarshall
The law is that which it boldly asserted and plausibly maintained..
--Colonel Burr 1783
if this is the future, then count me out.
"online communities" have existed in varying degrees since "online" existed: ARPANet as a whole was an "online community" at one point. then there were BBSes, some of which made it onto the Internet. there are the 'homesteading' sites like GeoCities, in which "online community" translated to "free web space".
this proposes an online semblance of a community, but with more of the political crap that drives geeks into cyberspace in the first place. if the future is going to be comprised of democratically-minced constitutions and algorithmically-selected patriotic music without the consolation prize of human contact, then i think it's time for me to find a nice cave somewhere in the Ozark Mountains.
you won't notice this scaring me, though.
Cretin - a powerful and flexible CD reencoder
In the grand Yugoslavian tradition, I have joined Cyber Yuga, and am calling on my fellow NT user brothers to take back our birthright that is www.juga.com
Four Bazillion-odd years ago, this domain was a part of the Greater NT World, and it is our right to evict all the Linux, MacOS, and all other lesser OS users off of our homeland.
Saddle up boys! Tonight we ride, with the gallant and noble purpose of restoring the true order to the server. Kill 'em all!
by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
Slashdot forms it's own country and declares war on www.microsoft.com, www.aol.com and www.robsucks.com . (the Axis) After a huge bloody war in which the casualty numbers have to be written in scientific notation (the war is held in Quake 3 arena). It is decided that Hemos is to be Earth Czar. Anyone calling themselves MEEPT is hunted down and clubbed with salami.
Incidentally, based on the web page, I think this effort is a way of salvaging a really horrible situation through humour more than a serious effort. I think they have serious intentions of connecting people together, but not of starting a real country. And they seem to be pretty upfront about this, so I wouldn't judge them as a scam.
D
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Check out the NSK state of Laibach (the musicians, remember?) fame. Ahead of their time, maybe?
Ola Sundell
because an On-Line Labor Comission for an On-Line nation cannot differentiate between one place and another place, the purpose of a seperate government is to stop the treatment of people of different nationalities differently. Any citizen of the the on-Line nation would have to be treated equally and fairly. therefore an On-Line labor comission would have to argue for equal treatment, pay, working conditions, or suffer a mass citizen protest ..
-Joe
-Joe "You ought to think about this deeply" - Miyamoto Musashi
URL:
1 6/o/qid=933888089/sr=8-1/002-8997047-16604 64
:-(
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/09151790
For some reason the submission script stripped out the URL
D
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this brings back memories of when my friend Nat (Friedman) called the UN attempting to start a country called Linux. his defense to the "already having land" tenet was that because of its purely abstract state (pun intended), Linux would be impossible to invade by conventional means.
kept the guy on the phone for about two hours, too.
Cretin - a powerful and flexible CD reencoder
Governments do compete, but they call it war. "Hot", physical wars like Vietnam, or "cold", economic wars of the Reagan era. They are monopolistic within a given geographic region, but social and economic pressures from other countries have a tremendous impact even in peace.
The United States is the Microsoft of the political arena. The U.S. uses its sheer economic force to coerce other political entities into following its ideologies and ignores pleas for change from even large consortiums of other countries.
Governments are like infrastructure, and citizens rarely have much more say in choosing their government than they do in choosing which highways go past their house. Even in democracies, most decisions are made by unelected bureaucrats and elected officials that represent so many people that the concept of representation is meaningless.
It would be kind of nice to be able to choose one's government like one chooses an ISP. People who wanted security could subscribe to a police state, whereas people who wanted more freedom and privacy could join a government that lets them take more risks. The possibility of this happening, in an on-line sense, is very real. When I go to make an on-line transaction with another entity (say, a person or business), we would agree first to an arbitrating agency that would enforce the rules of the transaction and collect a fee (tax) for enforcing those rules.
These choices are already here in the real world, as evidenced by people choosing to live in covenant-controlled communities with stricter rules than those supplied by the local government. Unfortunately, opportunities for people who wish less security and more personal control are rare.
An electronic nation seems silly, but it could work as a collective bargaining unit for its members. It could start out by lobbying for policy changes in the various governments of its members. Get, say, 100 million people from around the world signed on, and I guarantee that you will be able to get pretty much any conventional government to sit down at the table to talk.
Pie-in-the-sky stuff, though.
Historically, nearly every new government has been based on something, whether it be common interests due to physical location, common heritage, ideals (as in the case of the USA), or whatnot. I read the constitution, and it seemed like there was no real basis, idealistic or otherwise, for this anarchistic nation or citizenship within it. Essentially, they're doing it because they can. This is a pointless effort, and one which accomplishes nothing.
:)
Now, if they were to try to form a Snow Crash-style phyle (also see Diamond Age; Snow Crash may have used a different term), then that would be susbstantially more interesting, since it would be based on something. This is really just a souped-up version of a bunch of third-grade boys forming a club.
Then again, even the third-graders are a little more sophisticated, since a lot of them have at least some kind of qualification for entry ("No Girls Allowed!")
"You can never have too many elephants on your team."
AP: The bodies of hundreds of vi users were discovered in mass graves today, ending the vi-Emacs war just hours after it began. "The poor fools never had a chance," commented Open Source advocate, Emacs user, and prominent gun nut Eric S. Raymond. "Once we finished writing an elisp machine gun package, it was all over."
Emacs users praised the editor's extensibility as the deciding factor in their decisive victory. In addition to the aforementioned machine gun package, machete, shotgun and nuke elisp packages were developed for Emacs as the violence escalated.
Observers are calling the horrible carnage the worse the Open Source community has seen since the KDE-Gnome code cleansing massacre of 1998.
EAT FLAMING DEATH, EMACS SCUM!!!!!!
While your warriors are waiting for their editors to start up, our vi shocktroopers will trounce you and beat you into silicon dust grains. And the EMPIRE OF THE GREAT vi will rule for a thousand years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And now! All vi warriors! In the name of the honourable Bill Joy! Attack!!!!!!!!!! Fill the great hall with the skulls of the Emacians!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yeh,
NeatO.
I sure hope that we can pay taxes for joning this virtual society. Or should we call them "dues towards the common good"... sounds a lot better than "taxes" i guess!
Hmm.. all the land is company property, the products of the employees' labor is company property, and all services are provided by the company. And I thought we won the cold war.
Be worried when it becomes illegal to quit your job.
Advantages of being a US citizen:
#1: Bragging Rights
What we (i.e. geeks or some other group) need to do is either leave our various occupied lands for greener pastures, or else have a revolution.
-- $SIGNATURE
Rebuttals
Slashdot should start an "online" country. We got our own newspaper (slashdot) and our own communication network (slashnet) as well as thousands of dedicated "slashdotters". I say we do it! how about it rob? =)
Sounds like sleeping for a time.
Sorry, I've been off the net for a while. I was cybernating.
From this site:
If I am a dual US/other citizen, is there any way I can lose my US citizenship?
Although current US law forbids the government from taking your citizenship from you against your will, it does permit you to give it up voluntarily. This has placed the US State Department in the complex position of determining whether someone who claims to be a US citizen has, in fact, given up that citizenship by his voluntary statements or actions.
In the early days of court-mandated acceptance of dual citizenship, State Department officials (hostile as most of them were to the whole idea of dual citizenship) tended to play hardball with people who claimed dual status, looking for almost any excuse to revoke US citizenship, and frequently ruling that a person had voluntarily forsaken his US ties despite steadfast protestations or even convincing evidence to the contrary.
On 16 April 1990, though, the State Department adopted a new set of guidelines for handling dual citizenship cases which are much more streamlined and liberal than before.
The State Department now says that it will assume that a US citizen intends to retain (not give up) his US citizenship if he:
is naturalized in a foreign country;
takes a routine oath of allegiance to a foreign country; or
accepts foreign government employment that is of a "non-policy-level" nature.
Apparently, a "routine oath of allegiance" to another country is no longer taken as firm evidence of intent to give up US citizenship, even if said oath includes a renunciation of US citizenship. This represents a dramatic reversal of previous US policy; it used to be that any such statement was taken rigidly at face value (as in the Supreme Court's 1980 Terrazas decision).
This presumption that someone intends to keep US citizenship does not apply to a person who:
takes a "policy-level" position in a foreign country;
is convicted of treason against the US; or
engages in "conduct which is so inconsistent with retention of U.S. citizenship that it compels a conclusion that [he] intended to relinquish U.S. citizenship."
The State Department says that cases of these kinds will be examined carefully to determine the person's intent. They also say that cases falling under the last criterion mentioned above (conduct wholly inconsistent with intent to keep US citizenship) are presumed to be "very rare."
Since this new country makes you have a policy role as part of the constitution you are subject to the loss of U.S. citizenship.
Do really dense people warp space more than others?
There's a pretty substantial portion of Antarctica which has never become a territory of any nation. They can have it. In fact, let's deport _any_ undesirable there, to improve the gene pool locally.
Wait... Doesn't their rule set look at least a little bit like the Initial Rules Set for Nomic???! Looks like someone started playing Nomic, and just got a little bit carried away... SnowLion
Dallas Times Herald, April 14th 1990 Section D, Page 3 (Editorials Section) "...[T]he United States Supreme Court has routinely and repeatedly, since the amendment authorizing income taxes was ratified, struck down so-called 'legal' defenses against the payment of income tax. Those who have attempted this route have spent and will spend many years in jail for this practice. Just something to remember while working on that 1040."
Uhm... really? I'll look for the Microsoft "VirtuaNation" software any minute now. Six weeks thereafter I will begin looking for the knockoff "@Nation" and "CyberState" virtual country starter kits. FOQNE anybody?
Kspett
Kevin "Cash Money" Spett
Ignore your rights and they go away.
I thought the "cyber-nation" (apologies to Mr. Gibson) idea that CY was pretty cool until I read this! These people are obviously not aware of the institutional strictness they are imposing on their "citizens" by depending on Microsoft on the "nation's" most crucial and fundamental level! In the spirit of freedom and revoloutionary ideas, the operating platform for this project should be
*BSD! (Thought I was gonna say "Linux"?) Let's say there was a SlashNation....
Kspett
Kevin "Cash Money" Spett
Ignore your rights and they go away.
Can't we start one of these ourselves? The OpenSource nation with Linus Torvalds as our leader. Go world dominiation!
It seems like we already have a culture or a religion at least. emacs worshipers, distro evanglists and whatever else you'd like to add.
~~~NO CARRIER~~~
Maybe its not all about you ! me,me,me, i want more !
They had leaders, paid taxes. Most lived in Israel or Jordan. Eventually their quest for a homeland bagan to come together. Now if Baruk will just do the RIGHT thing and carry out the Wye River Accords...
Especially when you have a floating country! But then you don't need to be virtual at all... You'd just have a lot of expatriates.
-- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.
"Their is no reason why I should not be able to choose my own citizenship after preference, and independently of my physical (and so unimportant in the connected world) position".
I think your physical position is pretty damn important when a war starts or a mugger comes after you. The most basic role of government is protection and resolution of disputes. If governments don't have control over geographic territories, what you have is anarchy, which apparently you favor.
I, for one, am glad that things like murder, robbery, and rape are illegal.
In his new book (a good old fashioned future?) The first story is about groups of people who operate through a gift and favor economy, doing each other favors and the like, In this way they avoid even dealing with governments, they are of course treated as gangsters and persecuted. The whole system is run by their personal computers, they get instructions like buy a jar of pickles and leave it on this corner at 10pm. And somehow it all works out. The whole point of this is that while the concept of online countries feels lame, a vast international affinity group of like minded people conducting their lives outside of traditional national alliegence through the internet is cool (to me)
But, as US citizens, all of his friends and peers received job offers 6-8 months ago.
Personally, I work in the Space industry and I know that if you aren't a US citizen it is really hard to even get on site of, say, Johnson Space Center let alone trying to get a job there. I know it took us months just to get an intern a pass to get on site for meetings. Whereas, as a citizen, I can go just about anywhere I please and can just walk in and get a pass in about 5 minutes.
I was also part of a program NASA runs where they give University students a chance to fly experiments on the Vomit Comet (the best experience of my life, you can't imagine how cool it is to be weightless for 23 seconds at a time). They were informing some international students at US Univs of the hassles of getting them on site. The ones that did get in had to go through a lot of trouble just to get on site to watch a movie.
IANAL, but I play one on
Because, it serves only those who believe in open-source, and freely-distributed software. And because you do not exist on the Internet, you exist in teh real world, and as such must abide by the laws of nature, and the laws of the land. You will never be able to eat jpegs to satiate hunger, unless you print it out and eat the paper.. I mean. you have to live somewhere, and if you have a policy-level position in another "recognized" nation, you'd have your U.S citizenship revoked.
Speaking as an illegal immigrant in the U.S. trust me, you don't want my life.
-Joe "You ought to think about this deeply" - Miyamoto Musashi
Most muslim countries forbid alcohol.
-Joe "You ought to think about this deeply" - Miyamoto Musashi
Neat concept? Perhaps, but the ideology behind this is rather frightening.
The whole concept of the former authoritarian state of Yugoslavia was to strip people of their culture & heritage, freedom of association & religion, and independent thought.
The evolution of the internet as a true forum of individualism and free expression is threatened any time someone sets up an organization such as this. It will most CERTAINLY not be a democratic "state", as I doubt any ideas about Croatian, Bosnian, or Albanian independence would not be tolerated.
Suppose 400 serbs, 300 Croats, 150 moslems, and 150 Slovenes join this "cyber-nation". What happens when, as is the rule in Balkan Yugoslavia, the Croats, Slovenes, and Moslems decide unanimously they want nothing to do with Cyber-Serbs. Do they get to take a portion of the server, RAM, domain name, etc. with them? I suppose we can expect the cyber-serbs running the site to start E-cleansing?
Let's be real.
=U= "Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you"
Stuff similar to this has been around for a long time: micronations.
Some vary in seriousness and complexity. Some are goofy, and undeveloped. Some are farily fleshed out and regard themeselves as a political simulation and some actually "claim" land and seriously claim independence from a real national power.
A fairly exhaustive list of links to micronations or related stuff relating is here:
http://www.reuniao.org/chancellery/links.html
-Tom O'Rear -- tomed@radiks.net
I believe you can retain dual citizenship in the US as long as you don't serve in a foreign agency such as with foreign militaries. For example there is a famous case where a 15-year-old had a dual citizenship between the US and Israel. In Israel there is a mandatory service requirement with their military. This was a problem because she could not retain citizenship in Israel without serving, and she could not retain citizenship in the US if she served in Israel. With cyberyuga, as of now there does not appear to be any military or such organizations, so it probably wouldn't be a problem. I'm not sure if serving as a member of non US government would forfeit ones US citizenship, but as far as I can tell this would be the only possible problem. Also it would most likely prompt certain US agencies to pay undue attention to you. It might also hurt your chances at gaining political office or become an officer in the military. It might also be bad if CY pissed off the US media or government, because they most likely wouldn't respect your citizen status in CY. They could also us it as an excuse to arrest you as a spy and bypass many rights you may have as a US citizen... Once online governments gain popularity you can bet there will be a major backlash, both from police agencies and the media. And not only in the US.
The ONLY country with a free speech amendment? Sorry, my country has one. And it's not the US. Do all americans think they are the sole owners of the Truth?
I think I meant to say :1,$ s/emacs/vi/g
:%s/emacs/vi/g
I believe you meant to say
According to the Bureau of Consular Affairs web page (http://travel.state.gov), if you become a citizen of another country, you can probably keep your US citizenship.
From http://travel.state.gov/ocs_faq.html:
VOS/Interreality project: www.interreality.org
They found a small rock a few square metres large in an oil field outside Britain. So they put a tent with a few people on it and said: This is Greenpeace country and don't you *dare* drill for oil in our territorial waters. :-)
Lots of people have been throwing around phrases like
being a US citizen [...] you get the honour of filing and paying taxes to the US government
live in the US but not live by its laws (like paying taxes)
I can see that the brainwashing program has been successful. Your politicians would be proud of you.
The Income Tax was started to raise money for World War I. It is a voluntary program! You don't have to pay if you don't want to.
Pay No Income Tax!
(I'm not Irwin Schiff, and I'm not connected with the publishing of any of Mr. Schiff's materials. I'm not profiting from this message. Yada yada yada.)
The secretaries have no actual power, it is merely to show equality among all citizens, whether they are webmaster or lurker.
I remember a game in which players, in turn, propose "laws", that is, new rules to the game, which the other members vote on. The goal is to get the most tokens or something. The trick is fooling the other players into voting on laws which seem good to them at the time, but in the long run, get them to give you their tokens or something. You can also have fun with "I propose that from now on, the meaning of "yes" and "no" shall be reversed from their meanings prior to this moment" etc.
The way you change the Social System Algorithm it seems, is via the Social System Algorithm. This is at the same time kind of neat and possibly flawed.
VOS/Interreality project: www.interreality.org
so do they will have a whole nation domain for them? it could be fun :o)
--
http://www.beroute.tzo.com
"Science will win because it works." - Stephen Hawking
It's an very interesting concept for a number of reasons... and most important of all, it is promising in its applications.
The world's current configuration as a mostly uni-polar system (with the United States being the sole super-power) is due to the concentration of military power in one location (obviously). But increasingly, this configuration can be challenged by opposing poles that represent concentrations of technical and financial power!
Imagine a CyberSystem that had a defense force, capable of attacking electronically the infrastructure of nations that threatened the rights/existence of the system. Such a threat is no less dangerous (and possibly even more so) than thousands of tons of TNT.
Imagine a CyberSystem that had a viable economic system, where citizens are taxed in some fair manner to support common infrastructure development... i.e. more cryptographic support, stronger political presence... Such a system could use many of the economic tools of today's "modern" nations to find a place for existence. It's clear that the United States is already dependent on the technocrats. Let's formalize that relationship such that the US militarily/politically defend the rights of this CyberNation in exchange for beneficial economic terms.
You can think of this as an extension of Neal Stephenson's Cryptonomicon. Most citizens in the first world no longer have to fear for their personal safety, but we DO need a political/financial safe haven. If we band together successfully, such a scheme really might have promise.
This CyberWorld could also be considered an experimental platform for alternate political systems. Presumably, its citizens would include some of the most talented, best educated, and financially well-off people on the planet. Instead of being stuck in the traditional cycles of autocracy and representative 'democracy', maybe it's time to test the system of the future.
Only problem with this is that it is intended as a virtual "Yugoslavia". The political connotations/attachment to the previous incarnations of Yugoslavia is probably not needed.
Opinions? Anyone think such a virtual utopia is really possible? Isn't it time to leverage our technical abilities to achieve new levels of political and social development?
Hmm. Perhaps the Internet is the one place where communism will actually work. Yes ... yes it's perfect. If OpenSource and GNU (which is essentially communist thinking) works on the Net, so will my communist government.
.. our only online competator in the cybernetic nation business. We'll kick their asses.
I shall form my own communist government. I will entertain the ideas of all those guys who got their assess kicked in real life, like Nazis and the Soviets.
And one day we too will register ourselves in the United Nations. And we'll capture 40 square miles of washington DC and declare it as our own.
Then we'll have a war against CY
And then the UN will call for first ever hacker peace talks! And I, the king of my communist country, will make history on live TV by throwing pies at all the UN officials and making fun of everyone.
... welcome to the future of politics (future? this what goes on at UN today!)
A while back, I encountered a similar thing, although I can't remember what it was called. It claimed to be a sovereign state, and it was somewhere in Wisconsin or something. Anyway, I think it's pretty cool, just as long as I don't have to pay taxes.
The idea that a virtual country could be formed from the populace of the internet is not a new one, but until now it's been done in the wrong ways: A group tries to get people to join, bringing accusations of clubs, cults, or money-making scams.
:)
The right way is more simple, and requires work *outside* the net, rather than inside. The right way is to declare the internet its own sovereign territory.
Every government on earth is tripping over themselves trying to regulate, control, or spy on the internet. And because of the net's basic concept and infrastructure, they'll never succeed. What we need is an advocacy group who will tell the governments of the world to Get Out. We have our own laws, and they should have no jurisdiction here. Every visitor to the internet should only have to worry about the laws of the medium. It's only information, after all...and governments should be taught that free speech includes free information.
But that would require both a volunteer law enforcement squadron for the net and a powerful multi-national lobby outside of it, so I doubt we'll see the internet declared sovereign territory anytime soon. Even if the powermongers in the real world could be persuaded to keep away from the net, we are not ready to govern ourselves.
Just my humble, seditious opinions...
Genocide Man -- Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass murder can be hilarious.
I personally don't see the purpose of this, but in any case, I saw this book on Amazon a few months ago and it seemed to be somewhat related to this discussion.
1 6/o/qid=933877823/sr=8-1/002-4488801-02334 58
"How to Start Your Own Country"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/09151790
So? There are several operating systems (even Unix-like operating systems), too--choice is good. You don't have to be original to have an impact. Also note that this doesn't appear to be a (money-making) scam: At no point do you have to give any money to anyone.
Wrong. Go check your facts. The State Department doesn't LIKE dual citizenships, but they do not have the power to revoke your citizenship unless you are a baddie (treason, etc)
Then don't join. Or, if you like the basic idea but not the details, join and then put your pet peeve up to a Public Vote (everything, including the constitution is malleable by Public Vote). I don't like that they are using MS software for an "open" society so I'm joining and hoping to change all that.
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Put Hemos through English 101!
"An armed society is a polite society" -- Robert Heinlein
Linux MAPI Server!
http://www.openone.com/software/MailOne/
(Exchange Migration HOWTO coming soon)
The constitution states that the anthem is selected on a weekly basis through a random generator fed with a list of candidates. I can see that this process might be a way of curbing nationalism through a non-identification with a specific national anthem, but why not do away with an anthem altogether? What is the point if it is randomly selected each week? More than likely it will degenerate into "This Week's #1 Hit Single at JUGA" and serve to degrade the whole idea of a virtual nation.
And then there's the flag and weapon, which are static. Juga resists an identifiable anthem but chooses to maintain a single flag and weapon? Again, if the absence of a single anthem is meant to avoid a nationalistic furor then why choose a flag *and* a weapon? I can see the point of a flag and/or a logo but what about this weapon? What would a virtual community have need for a weapon?
Several items in the constitution smell of silliness, like choosing C/C++, Pascal and Visual Basic as some of the official languages. If Juga wants to be recognised as a valid nation, giving programming languages an official status is not the way to do it.
And there are other items, such as obligating the citizenry to visit the web site at least fifty times a year, reading the constitution at least once a month, and forcing them to participate in a government position. There is participational democracy and then there is *PARTICIPATIONAL* democracy. Clause five of the constitution even states that if citizens do not adhere to forced participation (ie. the "obligations" stated afterwards), then they will have their citizenship removed. It seems to me that Juga wants to be a nation of geeks who have the time to provide their input, and not a nation of everymen who might intervene once in a while.
And, yes, this has been done before. I recall a few years back Scott Thompson of the Kids in the Hall set up a site called ScottLand that had the same idea.
ian.
ian
This is not the first try
Neue Slowensche Kunst was way before them...
Click Here
And here for their embassy
It's more likely that in the future national borders and distinctions as we view them now will matter less but it's less likely that start up communities of self proclaimed nation-states will matter at all. After all what will better insure your continued existance? Independence or interdependence. Tribalism or cooperation. A wall around a small isolated group of folks is an interesting anthropological investigation . A wall around a huge group of folks is a target .
I definately think it's cool. I'm most amused by how 'nomic-like' it seems. While Nomic is generally considered to be a 'game', the precepts behind it are very similar, and most starting rulesets of Nomics are very similar to the consitution of Cyber Yugoslavia. Definately check it out and (if you think it'd be cool) check out some of the various Nomics in existance as well.
--JT
hmm...
Ever read Red Mars, Blue Mars and Green Mars? Or watched The Babylon Project: Crusade? I think that this theme has been around and explored for a bit, and unfortunately too likely to become true for my taste....
First off, if there was to be an on-line community that was on par with the governments of the world and had enough political clout. It would ahve to be a lot more organised, not openly challenge the government, and be created by the people. Not one person, or a group of people, but all people. There would have to be a working heirarchy of order, a series of balance of checks, and a Constitution. The constitution of Cyber Yugo is Laughable. You cannot have a state of 5 million secretaries.
Sure, you might want to be the Secretary of nagging, or the Secretary of Procrastination, but it just doesn't work in a real world environment. the lack of structure of the constitution. The lack of groundwork upon which to build leaves much to be desired. Not to mention multiple citizenships. The method of procurement of citizenship also makes me wonder. What exactly is stopping a person from having multiple identities on Cyber Yugo??
Obviously, it's just a joke community which will never be taken seriously. For a serious community to be created. We need more than just good will. We need serious thought, and consideration. and incredible foresight to make sure that the system we generate will stand up to the test of time. It has to be extensible and yet secure. You must not be able to break the system, but still it must allow for the freedom of the people.
There are also other extraenous reasons why most countries refuse to recognize on-line countries. The most obvious being, that it hurts their interests where each country is treated as having the same way, and level of living. People in the states are facing a constantly increasing economic boom, with no inflation whatso-ever, people in Pakistan, adn India are faced with constantly increasing Inflation, and two governments that are at war with each other constantly. A weapons race is ensuing in the entire middle east, and asian area to top it off. Just another way in which the level of life in one country differentiates from another place.
An On-Line country ignores these differences. An On-Line labor commission for that country would demand equal pay and working conditions regardless of area. You should be able to see the problem. I am an idealist, and a realist. I know what the world should be like, but it isn't. don't lose sight of what the world is like, don't stop seeing what can and cannot be done, by the laws of the land. Ideally, an On-Line country with a strong infrastructure sounds like a great idea. Unfortunately, it's just not feasible. If people in Bangladesh were paid the same wages as the people in the U.S, the U.S would face serious setbacks in their economy.
-Joe
-Joe "You ought to think about this deeply" - Miyamoto Musashi
Oh well, there goes my chance to help! I was all ready to go (and the Constitution looks cool, except for the reliance on legacy proprietary software).
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I noticed
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I noticed
It's getting about time to leave everywhere
I just finished reading Stephenson's nano-epic 'The Diamon Age' and this (as well as the other) nations of the mind, as opposed to nations of land, remind me greatly of the tribes and philes from that book. For those who haven't read the book, it's set in the future where people of common interest and belief form their own countries. Since the information network allows people to disregard national land boundries, these philes come to be the defining boundries between peoples of the world. A very interesting concept to be sure, and one that I think will come to have more and more significance in the years to come.
Certainly agree. The Internet, as a worldwide entity with no easily definable location, boundaries, etc, deserves its own government. Because it exists in many different countries, one nation's laws couldn't really be applied to the internet as a whole. The only fair solution would be to create one governing body over the internet which would be controlled by it's users. Internet government operations could possibly be funded by small (in business terms, at least) fees that ISPs would have to pay for the privilege of acting as a point of access to the internet. These fees would be sufficient to fund the basic necessary things such as creation and maintenance of the government servers, and possibly the hiring of a small force to enforce the rules voted upon by the users of the 'net as a whole. The idea certainly needs some work, but it would certainly be better than the status quo, with censorship and other restrictions varying greatly between nations and the issues arising from a content provider being in one jurisdiction and a viewer being in another. Any suggestions?
Except me!! I'm 16 and I love being an American! I've been to Canada for many summers to visit relatives and if the US tried to be like Canada that would suck becuase they would have to expel everyone who is not white, cut down the military budget and allow China to trample all of North America into the dust.
Just wait.. by 2012 the US economy will be in a decline.. people who say they hate the US haven't lived in another country and are ignorant white-rich-pompous-bastards!
End Rant
A program is a device used to convert data into error messages.
Actually I was speaking of meat-world lawyers to protect the rights of the online community/users against the various laws created/existing of their indigenous nation/state.
penguinicide... when jumping out a window just won't do.
It was Diamond Age that had phyles. In Snow Crash it was FOQNEs. aka Franchise-Organized QuasiNational Entities.
So if their servers crash, does their nation disappear? Makes the whole MS Windows 47 day limit kindof scary :)
Well duh! Open your mind a little. Stop thinking about what you can gain from such an experiment and think more about the questions such an experiment asks. This idea challenges ingrained concepts of nationality - don'cha think?
I've often been intrigued by the concept of an anarchist society where a top-down rule structure is not required, as people choose to take responsibility for the society around them. However, the biggest block I can see to such a system is human beings. Yup, people like you who cannot see past the "What's in it for me" attítude and who will never realise that quite simply, life would be better in a society where people aren't just taking all the time.
I guess overall, CY is a single step towards a virtual country. You don't think that's a goal worth trying to move towards? As others have pointed out here, there have been other attempts at this idea - more power to them all say I. we'll keep on pushing the idea and one day the mixture will be right and suddenly a lot of us will be citizens of the world.
Sorry - it's early and I haven't had my coffee yet!
A little planning goes a long way...
Prince Edward Island entered Canada in 1867 or 1870. Newfoundland (also an island) entered Canada in 1949 after two or three referendums. I'm in quebec and we've only gone through two referendums (for quiting) and some people are really pissed off by it.
Okay so they fucked up the idea of a phyle. I'm so proud of them. On the flip side I do think quasi-nations or phyles or virtual countries or whatever are the future. I don't think they will replace countries though. I think countries will eventually set up quasi-states as the next step in the democratic evolution. There is always the pull for a centralized government and then for a decentralized government back and forth. Probably the next big swing we get away from centralization they will begin to form in the U.S. or in a similar country. It'd reduce the amount of control the Federal government had and drop the governments expenses hugely. The basic idea phyles within this country. The government still maintains it's own borders against other countries but stays out of the affairs of the average Joe Blow. Anyone that has read Neal Stephenson knows the basics of how a phyle works and that you can be a member of more than one. Like copyrights (yes, now outdated) and other things that were steps of democracy evolving eventually other countries adopt the same idea with little or no modification. Once this happens the government wouldn't need to worry about controling movement of citizens between borders as long as they belonged to a registered phyle within it. This would be great IMO. Finally people from different countries could move between physical places without the need for immigration papers and the like. It'd be more like the Internet. In the U.S. states are a first attempt at such a system though of course they couldn't imagine the Internet or travel by jetplane when they designed that system. Each state is sort of a francise organization set up under the Federal gov't to handle some of the burden and to allow more freedom to the people. Each is basiclly the same but w/ it's own laws and subtle differences. Quasi-states is just the next conceptual leap forward because you are removing their bounding to a physical location. Many large apartment complexes are already similar to quasi-states. It is easier to move between complexes ran by the same group, you hang out w/ people from the same complex, by from the complex store, etc. Some phyles may have physical locations in each city, some may be individual people just scattered, and some may be web sites. It's all still a quasi-state. :)
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
What you didn't realize is that not only do you have the great emacians do deal with but also the greater Xemacians to fight! ha ha ha DIE primitive VI!!!!!!
What if there were taxes?, what do you think they could be used for?
Lawyers for defense of online rights?
Retirement accounts (subidised internet access/ web pages/servers?)
etc...
Admittedly this virtual government thing may not be necessary for such an organization, but who would you trust? (i probably wouldn't trust a virtual nation startup without legally binding membership documents for where each resident lives...)
penguinicide... when jumping out a window just won't do.
Can someone explain to me the point of having a citizenship in a "country" like this? What will it get you?
If you become a citizen and pay your taxes, you can get an inside deal on the country's IPO :) Seriously though, some companies have quite a bit of power (money, capital, etc) although they don't own any land and may even lease the office space that they have
JET Program: see Japan, meet intere
I don't care how you slice it this is just another kind of online RPG. If people want to take it seriously, fine, but I'm not going to be interested unless it has monsters.
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
Attempts at starting new nations are more often than not signs of protest with the status quo. There are many challenges that have faced attempts to start new nations in the traditional sense. Some occur even in cyberspace.
1. recognition: you have to be recognized internationally or you won't go anywhere. Somebody somewhere has to recognize you in order to communicate with others outside your "nation". Even Taiwan has some (23?) nations that recognize it as independent from Red China. Look at what happened when the PLO declared an independent nation in 88 or 89. nothing.
2. resources: a physical nation needs resources in order to survive and develop. Is intellectual resources enough in cyberspace?
3. citizenship: Is citizenship hereditary? Are you just going to have people "Sign up"? what about responsibilities? When does a citizen's interest conflict with the nations? If I got around claiming to be a citizen of some cybernation and do illegal or questionable things in name of said country, what kind of restraint can they place on me, particularly in a virtual environment?
4. identity: How is one identified as belonging to a virtual country? IS it valid or binding? Can it be revoked?
5. What benefits can I really receive? A nation supposedly offers benefits to its citizens or else there is no need for it. What concrete benefits can a cyber nation offer?
This is little more than a club, which has been going on throughout history.
Check out the book "How to Start Your Own Country". I don't recall the author but it is available through Loompanics Books. Its a good resource on the history, challenges and opportunities of starting your own country.
Terrorists are considerably more likely to target US citizens than, say, Canadians (to the point the State Department has to issue advisories warning Americans not to go to certain countries; I somehow doubt Canadians have to worry so much).
Actually Canadians have to worry about being mistaken for Americans. Canadians are also loseing their fromerly excellent reputation when travelling.
The main idea of Cyber YU is to gather people from former Yugoslavia who are scattered all over the world following the civil war there. I think the goal of CY is to share information, find friends, relatives, etc. more than being a "real" country. Check out the current "citizenship" statistics at http://www.juga.com/list/countrystat.asp /.-ed! :)
839 people declared themeselves as real Yugoslavian citizens.
This site following the (very successful) model of Serbian Cafe (www.serbiancafe.com) and couple of other Yu-related sites.
I'm sure that the Cyber-Yu web masters will be very pleased to see added traffic to their site, though....:)
Hey, they are not even officially up, and they are already
Unfortunately, there are often physical reasons why building deep underground isn't practical. But yep, it's all about zoning. If urban planner types prefer big, shiny skylines, zone for above-ground growth. If you want hive-mazes, zone for below-ground growth. It's true that generally zoning rules take height into account from both a safety and an aesthetic/usage concern (you know, no buildings over six stories to prevent an urban-downtown look, or to discourage large companies from settling in an area), unlike the incentives and restrictions on below-ground building.
Only truly valuable people would have to 'defect' to other companies.. :)
And effort/productivity would be rewarded financially, or at least materially. Still the Capitalist model of economics, but your basic needs would be a benefit of employment.
This wasn't only done in Eastern Europe. Company housing and 'The Company Store' are very American in nature. But back then we had single purpose (more or less) companies.
Being a citizen of a corporation would not be much different than being the citizen of a country. You can still borrow stuff, and get into debt, and have to work it off... Ultimatelly be exiled into contractor land, and have a lien placed on your future income until you're debt free.
We'd need rules of engagement, and humance employee treatment treaties among the mega-corps.. Something like the Geneva Convention. Maybe the Wal-Mart Treaty or something.
-- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.
I have several problems with it though.
1) Although I can understand the sentimental value the founders place on their name, I do not think a "virtual nation" should be based on any physical one, not even in name.
2) If we're going to do the "virtual nation" bit, it should be limited to one, namely a governing body which concerns the entire Internet, independent of any nation.
3) No bill of rights. Then again, this wouldn't be practical unless a virtual nation concerning the whole Net was founded. This one's particularly important, because there needs to be a free speech amendment (FUN FACT: For all the dumb laws the US has, it's also the only nation with a free speech amendment). Come to think of it, what other amendments could one put into the constitution of a virtual nation; very few apply. I suppose protection against illegal search and seizure would be good (since it implies the right to use strong encryption). Anyone else got any others?
Those are the three main problems I see with this one. Then again, it wouldn't be particularly easy to create a single governing body for the Net, considering that physical governments would likely brand us as separatists and/or terrorists and have us all killed.
From the US State Department:
"Dual nationality can also occur when a person is naturalized in a foreign state without intending to relinquish U.S. nationality and is thereafter found not to have lost U.S. citizenship the individual consequently may possess dual nationality. While recognizing the existence of dual nationality and permitting Americans to have other nationalities, the U.S. Government does not endorse dual nationality as a matter of policy because of the problems which it may cause. "
The US has allowed dual citizenship for decades.
Check http://travel.state.gov/loss.html for specifics on how you can revoke/renounce your citizenship due to naturalization in another country. CY does NOT require you to revoke your citizenship in your existing country so you can have dual US/CY citizenship.
If you had actually visited their page, you would've seen both of your complaints are incorrect.
Why does an "on-line" labor commission demand equal pay and working conditions?
Standards of living WITHIN a nation can often differ, and yet most nations have methods that try to combat this. Obviously the same United States government rules over Watts and Beverly Hills, and I don't understand why the situation would be any different on a global sense. Does the US labor commission demand that Watts plumbers have identical work pay and conditions as those in Beverly Hills? Doubtful.
Any political system can be established, and regardless of whether this particular group is doing it correctly or not, I fail to understand why an intelligent/democratic virtual nation can't be created.
...other then they dont have any land. :)
i really like the idea of this. all of the gov'nt is open sourced.
one thing i would change is each citizen must have a PGP key for signing votes, etc.. would have it so the keysevers are on CY land.. (when they get some.. )
this is one project i will definly keep an i on...
nmarshall
#include "standard_disclaimer.h"
R.U. SIRIUS: THE ONLY POSSIBLE RESPONSE
nmarshall
The law is that which it boldly asserted and plausibly maintained..
--Colonel Burr 1783
On a flight back from chicago i bought some cheezy tom clancy book that involved some cyber nation... i don't remember too much about it, but i swear it sounds exactly like this one... kinda freaky..
Anyone else read that book... i think they made it into a movie too. gawd it was bad.
Ever seen Lizbekistan? It was more of a parody of real government than anything else, and is closing soon, but it was the same general concept. Hopefully this one is of a more serious, genuinely experimental nature.
~ Give me 101 plastic soldiers, and I will conquer the world.
are so two dimensional. Why have land when you can have space? The interior of the earth is underpopulated in my opinion. Rather than asking for a 20 square meter plot of land, they should ask for a 20x20x20 meter cube of space inside the planet. That would hold more servers because it would be 8000 cubic meters.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
But wouldnt doing this make your US citizenship invalid? Hmm.. Dont sign up unless you dont want the perks of voting here, etc. I think it's a good idea, but its not gonna fly with US citizens...
-- There's only one replacement for displacement.....
Don't get me wrong. *I* don't hate America. I wasn't even talking about people in America. I meant people in other countries (or corporations) hated America like people in other companies hate Microsoft.
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It is possible for your mind to be so open that your brain falls out.
While I have seen to many "democratic" Internet societies to get worked up about something like this it does give certain indication where the future is going.
/. ? -
The old idea that countries have physical boundaries, that only citizens are aloud to freely move in and out of those boundaries and that anyone born within them is a citizen are obviously getting old. Their is no reason why I should not be able to choose my own citizenship after preference, and independently of my physical (and so unimportant in the connected world) position.
Should this truly happen then governments would have to fight for our citizenship and tax money through good old capitalist competition: who has to most to offer for the best price.
I used to think that this was the right way for our society to move. Before I turned towards anarchism.
- I got an error message from the site,
Yeah, I was going to point out that this was just Nomic all over again, dressed up for a popular audience. I think it's a cute idea---I particularly like how they intend to apply for nation status once they hit 5m people---but it's going to suffer from all the traditional problems of Nomic. Namely, that with no existence except online, there really isn't much to legislate about; and more importantly, even if there is some sort of legislation, there's no way to enforce it! In a Nomic, that's okay, because there's generally a ``spirit of the game'' motivating people not to break the rules, but when it's couched as an actual nation, it's not going to work so well....
``This, too, shall pass.'' ---Eastern proverb
Can someone explain to me the point of having a citizenship in a "country" like this? What will it get you?
:)
Absolutely nothing. I can't see how having this kind of citizenship and living in any country in the world would have any benefits other than making life more difficult for you.
Would you pay taxes to the online country? What about my rights? Can I live in a country where free speech doesn't exists, yet I have free speech because I'm a citizen of OnlineCountryX?
Can I get out of paying my US Taxes by gaining citizenship?
Give me a break. What a load of trash! Without land, a country really doesn't have any power. And I doubt that any online country will be recognized without some kind of land.
But this is all my opinion, of course.
Finder
Readers have been quick to point out the "been there, done that" aspect - and I definitely concur; from either a conceptual or a technological viewpoint, there's nothing new here, check out Nomic, MUDs such as Shattered World, and countless others.
However... I'm dismayed at the knee-jerk "this is a scam" reflex. The reference to "former Yugoslav citizens" is particularly interesting in the context of recent events in that region; I can well understand the desire to create "from scratch" a nation based on hopefully saner principles.
For the skeptical and/or cynical, Greg Egan's novel Distress has an interesting digression at one point about how an 'artifical' nation, in the novel the island Stateless, is more likely to succeed in ensuring that democratic ideals flourish than an 'accidental' nation formed by the tortuous contingencies of history and geography; the people who move there want it to succeed.
Granted, the "Algorithm of the Social System" bit sounds silly and gimmicky, but hey, to succeed on the Internet you need a minimum of that. Meanwhile, I urge readers to judge the experiment on its own merits; its proclaimed intentions are, IMHO, beyond reproach.
This Cyber Yugoslovia may sound intriguing on paper (or on the CRT). It may even have some value as a social experiment. But what about the real war that's being waged right now between the <insert country here> government and the people? What of freedom?
Compare this Cyber Yuga to A Declaration of the Independence of Cyberspace. When the latter was written, it seemed whimsical. But as time goes on, and the US and other governments wander farther and farther from the ideals of freedom and law, that Declaration starts looking a whole lot more important, doesn't it?
I see this Cyber Yuga as a simple perpetuation of an outmoded concept. As physical constraints evaporate before technology, these people would continue their exclusivist practices in a new world. They'd make a "country" where they can be "citizens". They'd surrender their power to a government. And in exchange for what?
I'm much more concerned with the struggle right here in the USA (for those of you not in the USA, you may already have faced this struggle, or may be facing it now; if not, then you most assuredly will face it soon). The Internet gives the people real power for the first time. We have the ability to communicate with each other openly, or not to. We have the ability to conduct transactions, or not to. We can say what we wish, or remain silent. And most important, we have access to information which has formerly been out of our reach.
But our governments are trying to deny us this power. When we gain power, they lose power -- and they don't like that at all. They try to filter us, censor us, and legislate us. They try to categorize information -- to divide it into "bad" information and "worse" information. (The only "good" information is their propaganda.) They try to tell us what we can say, and hear. They try to tell us what we can learn. They try to keep us ignorant and fearful.
So, while this Cyber Yuga may be good for a few laughs, the real battle will be fought over a much bigger and more important battleground: we the people.
so lets say this "country" comes into existance. If someone like the US instituted a program to spy on the internet would it be considered espionage even to people living in the US? And I don't see this conforming to the Zappist regulations for a country. "You can't be a Real Country unless you have a beer and an airline. It helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer."
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
They're being redrawn by the mega-corps. What did Gibson call them? Zaibatsu?
That's the Japanese term for their competing interlocking webs of corporations...
Think of it, through a series of mergers and acquisitions, a corporation becomes self-sustaining
The problem is that there's no profit in super-conglomerization, so only a corporation independent of stockholder control can try to follow such a path in the first place.
Empirical evidence of this abounds. Japanese and German corporations tend to be more conglomerated than American firms -- and American firms tend to be more controlled by stockholder interests. Similarly, American companies have been tending to sell off "non-core" buisnesses in recent years, as the mutual fund revolution has made them more responsible to return-oriented investors.
For example, GM has spun off EDS, and has partially disgorged Hughes, and has spun off many of the parts divisions that it originally bought and built up under the names of Delco and Fisher Body under the name of Delphi. It's slowly cutting itself down to being an assembeler and distributer of autos, instead of expanding into new industries. Why? GM had stock broadly held by relatively weak individual investors in the '70s -- now it's got to answer to Wall Street brokerages that are trying to pull in 20%+ annual growth rates.
In short, the best defense against all-controlling megacorps is, oddly enough, free-market capitalism and the attendant profit pressure. The greatest enemy of power-hungry execs are profit-hungry stockholders who don't want to pay for grandiose empires.
As first Preseident and Chief Commander of Cyber Yuga, the first act I plan is to declare war on the online communities MSN and AOL. Vote Thanotechnocrat in 2000.
Just so you know, Zaibatsu are merely the 4 japanese companies that controlled the Japanese economy prior to world war 2. I forget which they are but Mitsubishi was one of them.
Utopia.
-- 100% MS-Free as of 4-4-1999, 11:47:38 PST. "The lapdance is always better when the stripper is cryin'" Free Kevin,
Back in October a canadian company bought started marketing tuvalu domains out to TV show's the place had like 9000 citizens, but it's already got a UN charter. I'm not sure who you'd make the check out to, but that would cover physical land pretty effectively. If that country had a couple million ex-patriate citizens with billions of dollars in tuvalu banks other countries would be happy to work with it's citizens. Actually I thought the chest thumping on US citizenship was funny, one of my best friends was teaching English in Beijing when Tianamin Square came down, the europeans she was there with had been alerted, put on planes and were the hell out of there a week before the crackdown, the Americans couldn't get any help from the US embassy. I don't see why this couldn't work a nation comprised of geeks IS a superpower in the information age.
Me bad. 'Twas Newfoundland that joined Canada in '49, methinks, not PEI. Working too hard.
In Liberty, Rene
Let's take a look at "USA Inc." The most capital in the world, great branding generally, and the 'stock' is doing well.
It seems as though USA is a lot like Microsoft, because as you said both are rich, both have great stock, and both are hated by everyone else.
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It is possible for your mind to be so open that your brain falls out.
i see a lot of silliness here... jokes, people banging on the idea of a 'cyber-yugoslavia', people banging on each other, people banging on each other's jokes...
i see in here maybe one actual reference to the situation the yugoslav people find themselves in, and one or two ref's to the fact that this is a statment of dissatisfaction with the status quo. i am quite pleased that at least three of us are actually using our brains here...
i happen to live in the USA, and am not particularly proud of the fact. i find i have major ethic and moral issues with the day-to-day activities of "my" government. i quote the 'my' because i do not condone the slaughter of millions of innocent persons across the world, the destruction of their homes, national infrastructure, ways of life, all because they were unwilling to roll over and play the 'good little bitch' (PMF) client state to the (largely) USA-based corporations and the industrial capitalist states who support them.
then, of course, there is the abysmal domestic situation in the USA. i live in the Boston, MA area. i read recently that in Roxbury (largely a minority neighborhood, you know) there is something like 50 times higher a rate of infant mortality. within five miles of Roxbury, there are at least 5 hospitals, some of the best in the world from what i hear. if the persons in power in this nation had their priorities straight, this would not be the case. these same persons are well on their way to destroying the environment of which we are a part, and without which we can _not_ exist, all in the name of profit.
with all this in mind, i feel that the least we can do as responsible citizens of the world is to oppose this sort of widespread abuse of the peoples of the world, their economies, their right to self-rule and peaceful existence, and just about anything else these bastards are up to.
the fact of the matter is, this is an absolutely fascinating social experiment, nothing less. i really like the idea, and i know i'm in.
my first proposition: lose that stupid "C U in CY" slogan there... but, until that happens, i guess i'll C U in CY! or not, either way...
peace,
johnny
"Respect was invented to fill the space where love should be." - Anna Karenina
Don't ask. Go see.
Taxes or some other kind of way to collect money from all participants is required because this kind of system isn't free to maintain.
To have virtual lawyers... hmm... when there is millions of individuals connected together then there will be conflicts (thanks to human nature). That's why there should be some kind of police force and judicial system. This kind of system cannot be maintained without some kind of funding.
Well, I don't know what calling yourself a nation implies. But it sounds to me just like one of the typical online communities from way back when online environments were used via telnet. I mean this isn't anything new. Lambda MOO has been around for eons via telnet at lambda.moo.mud.org 8888, and it has a government, laws, games, and a programmable environmnet. Heck, some distros such as Debian allow you to download the server files so you can run your own. For that matter, there are different themed Moos similar to this one such as one that used to be at sensemedia.net out in Santa Cruz, CA. Actually there were three there with Snow Crash or cyberpunk (William Gibsonish) themes to them. I will say I will have to pass on the new idea, its already been done, just with different arrangements.
futang futang!
Such an idea is briefly mentioned in Tom Clancy's
Net Force.
Um, yeah. It's a scam. Perhaps you should actually check out their site before spouting about scams. They're not asking for money. They're not implying that a CY passport will be useful in any way! I'm sure many become-a-citizen-reap-enormous-benefits scams do happen, but it would take one heck of an imagination stretch for this to be one of them. Their page is at http://www.juga.com.
Leilah
~ Leilah
A self regulating nation of 2000 citizens, in which every citizen heads a department? 100% of the population works for the government? ha!
The boundaries of nations are being re-drawn alright, but not by grass-roots opportunists such as these. They're being redrawn by the mega-corps. What did Gibson call them? Zaibatsu?
Think of it, through a series of mergers and acquisitions, a corporation becomes self-sustaining.. It's own transportation system, communication network, food supply, health-care, manufacturing system... An ATT/TWA/Fleet/Purina/Blue Cross/Exxon/GM buys up trackts of land all over the world and declares independence. All it's employees become citizens and have their needs take care of by the parent company - driving a company-made car, wearing company-made clothes, shopping in company stores stocked with company food... Vacationing on remote corporate properties.
Distributed nations. See Gibson - Count Zero and Sterling - Islands in the Net.
-- What you do today will cost you a day of your life.
I can see it now: Slashdotters join this cyber-nation and immediately start complaining that their rights are being violated!
Peasant:"help help! Im being repressed!"
King:"Bloody peasant!"
A nation is an entity that controls its territory and borders. Even though geography doesn't matter much on-line, no stretch of the imagination would allow someone to call himself a "resident" of an on-line community. Do you call the Cyber-Yuga police when someone breaks into your house?
Even before the internet, there have been weird ideas about "nations" that weren't based on geography, such as having multiple governments for the same area, and people being a citizen of the government of their choice (like a subscription or club membership). The whole idea breaks down when you consider the nature of the most fundamental functions of national government, namely defense, police, and courts. There needs to be an unambiguous method of deciding into what government's jurisdication a certain issue falls.
Now, *maybe* some sort of on-line government will be useful in regulating certain on-line issues that aren't geographically localized and where the issues of jurisdiction are vague. e.g., consider hypothetical anti-spam laws - it doesn't help much for one state or nation to ban spam, because the spammers can set up shop elsewhere.
After reading over the CY constitution, I wonder whether a bunch of geeks (who always get along, as on /., and who are never prone to religious fanaticism) can really build a nation with such a radical democratic structure.
Then again, it's hard to take seriously any organization whose constitution contains the words "Secretary of Coca-Cola"...
You could build a dome-city on the ocean floor and whalla!
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It is possible for your mind to be so open that your brain falls out.
..."/emacs" "dw" "ivi" "ESC" "n" "dw" "ivi" ...
goddess there MUST be and easyer way...
Inasmuch as all amendments to the Constitution are "voluntary", as in: you can choose not to obey the law of the land by leaving and renouncing citizenship...
See Amendment XVI:
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.
[Ratified February 3, 1913]
Now, either Mr. Schiff is a moron, he lives in a strange time-vortex in which 1913 never happened, or he's spreading a little "brain-washing" of his own (which it appears you bought into).
*sigh* I wish folks would actually read the Constitution before appointing themselves scholars...
i never have troubles crossing borders any more. my passport reads "borg collective". if people don't like us crossing their border, that's okay, we just assimilate 'em. ;-)
I would love to see this work. When it does, I will gladly revoke my American citizenship. However, Rome wasn't built in a day (Did I really just say that? Oh god...) and the idea of getting this up and running in one month is ludicrous. However, if they get enough intelligent people willing to dig into international law, and they figure things out, more power to them! I'm sure once the first virutal nation is legally established, dozens more will quickly follow suit. The idea of nationality being based on ideology rather than geography is fascinating. Technically very difficult to manage, but interesting.
Wish them luck, I say.
Well, this virtual citizenship sounds quite cool.
;) ? As far as I know it is currently impossible to exist only in electronic form. So there have to be another citizenship in some _real_ country where to stay while not hanging in the net. So, in the worst case this kind of citizen may have to pay double taxes.
But how about taxes, social security, place to live and all other responsibilities and benefits we are having with real countries/nations/governments? And what to do with our physical bodies (OK, I know, off-topic and too SciFi
It seems that this kind of citizenship is totally useless. I can't figure any real benefits with this kind of arrangement.
Every citizen has to be a Secretary of something. When applying for passport, citizen has to choose his Ministry and his officeal title. If the Ministry and/or title exists, citizen has to choose some other Ministry. Secretarial position cannot be above or under any other secretarial position. Correct samples of secretarial titles are: Secretary for Coca-Cola, Secretary of Treasury, Secretary for Mountains, Secretary
of Sunset, Secretary for Ducks, Secretary for Fusion, Secretary for Independence, Secretary for Babes, Secretary for Red Star, Secretary for Speed Metal, Secretary for Swimming, and all other examples.
...if that's not an example of bureaucratic explosion waiting to happen, I don't know what is.
Stop the planet I wanna get off. No wait, I know, I'll just fire up a server, log on, and declare myself on another planet. (www.planetslud.com?)
If you can see what I'm getting at, all the paper in the world wouldn't convince me that one can belong to a cyber 'nation'. I'm sick of the hearing about the online 'community'. Real life allows us to share information, love, hostility; the net only lets us do it more efficiently and on a less intimate basis.
I don't see the advantage of an online country - because when it comes down to it, it's still a real life hand on a real life power button. The interaction through computers is simply a proxy by which we can channel our decision making. I don't believe there's any political 'system' that could only be used on the net that couldn't be used in real life.
Although, admittedly, if they find something that seems to work well, in theory they could take this 'beta' political system and try it out in real life. That might be interesting, to use an internet community as a testbed for a real life political-social system.
SirSlud
"Old man yells at systemd"
if they get a good welfare program and socialized medicine i might sign up.
"First of all, the constitution on www.juga.com...is basically subject to change at the whim of the webmaster."
Wrong. If you actually read the constitution it says that all constitutional changes have to be approved by a simple majority of a two-thirds quorum. Furthermore, it says all citizens (secretaries) are equal and Public Votes can toss anyone out, which presumably includes the webmaster.
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Put Hemos through English 101!
"An armed society is a polite society" -- Robert Heinlein
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