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Apple announces Darwin 0.3
J. FoxGlov writes "Macintouch reports that v0.3 of Darwin, the open-source foundation for Mac OS X Server is available on Apple's Public Source site. Apple Developer Connection members can get it on CD for $29. Check Public Source for more about the Darwin SDK and the new Darwin. "
From my prospective Linux alone won't crush Windows it'll be a 1 2 punch of both MacOs and Linux that dose the job.
There will allwase be the techno types [geeks and near geeks] who want an advanced os thats Linux.
There will also be the users who don't want to under stand how computers work thats what Macs for.
Windows trys to be a good os for both kinds of users and ends up being worthless. Thats why Linux AND MacOs will crush Windows together.
I don't actually exist.
Have you tried asking on the Darwin Development mailing list?
Yeah, right..... You've been sleeping the last six months?
/G
I don't think that's necessarily an issue.
Say you're a Mac developer (you're not - but just say you are), and you have found a bug in the OS. At the moment you have to submit the bug to Apple, and they MAY fix it.
With Darwin, Mac developers can go straight ahead and just fix the bug themselves. This just wasn't POSSIBLE in the past. I think this will be one of the biggest advantages to Darwin, and might do less for Linux people than it will for Mac OS people (I hope I'm wrong here, already the HFS+ drivers look like a nice addition which could be ported to most Linux distros).
All I will say is it's better for Apple to do this, than to keep ALL of it's source closed.
If the market share has increased then how do you explain this? It seems that no matter how many of those tacky Imacs they sell, there seems to be no change in the number of Mac Users on the internet (and if you look closely you will see that the line is ever-so-slightly decreasing). If this is Macintosh's big break into the internet, I'm not impressed.
Linux will never kill the MacOS because Mac's have plug-it-in-and-it-works functionality, something Linux can only dream about and will proably never achieve.
With a Mac, I could just plug in an ethernet card, install any drivers, reboot and go. With Linux I have to spend two days piddlefarting around with the kernel and modules to get it to work.
Why? Because it's not Linux. You rarely see any news items without someone mentioning the word Linux in them. Why? Because you get this sort of response otherwise. SGI is doing far less for the "OSS" community, yet because they are using Linux, and Linux only, there are widespread rumors of "making Linux the best SMP platform around". When in fact SGI is doing worse financially than Apple (Apple is making record profits). But no, Apple is dead. Why? Because they're not using Linux. Get over it. Darwin is a cool idea that aims to make servers out of some already very nice boxen. When it was mentioned PPC might become the Linux RISC CPU of choice, perhaps they were wrong. Perhaps it'll become the BSD CPU of choice. Sure it's not a 64bit PPC, but it's a (relatively) inexpensive PPC server. And it (B&W G3s) looks damn cool, altho the Beige G3s are far superior in quality.
The revolution will be mocked
And you're full of shit. Linux is not the end all OS, get over yourself.
The revolution will be mocked
Yes. Darwin includes NetInfo, which would make all of our lives a whole lot easier if we adopted it exclusively, and finally gave NIS+ the bullet in the head that it deserves. Other than that, it's pretty much BSD 4.4 Lite for all intents and purposes. -jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Yes. We are hearing this every 2 monthes for 15 years. You are probably right. But this seems not prevent them to still sells computers :-)
Hub
The benefit is primarily to Mac developers, who don't have to go begging for kernal and driver sources like we used to when we want to do something tricky.
IOW, it's just like having the Linux sources handy when you need to debug a driver.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
OK, the project was killed, but that is another story.
Beam me up Scotty !
Hub
certain developers have CDs of rhapsody for x86.
looks alot like next step...
...is Darwin any good? Does it have anything that *BSD/Mach doesn't have?
I suppose Apple's hope is that they can get the community to fix bugs in their kernel and in their daemons and CLI apps, but what's in it for the community?
Am I missing something?
-- Some things are to be believed, though not susceptible to rational proof.
this will follow "Darwin's Theory" of evolution?
How about survival of the fittest?
--Mr AC
This has to be an attempt by apple to follow the course of linux. They are attempting what M$(aka Big Brother) are unwilling to do, it is a strategic move, that, unfortunatly will not help them gain the user base they want as most code-monkeys are running some non-commercial form of linux.
Could you possibly be any more snotty about it?
Look: Apple's job is to make money. They best way for them to do so today, is to promote the Mac platform. One of the subtasks fo promoting the platform is attracting developers to the platform.
One of the historical problems for NeXT developers was obtaining the information we needed for debugging drivers, since the BSD sources were encumbered by the AT&T licenses.
Apple knows that the base OS isn't their competitive advantage, so they might as well release it, to make life easier for their developers.
If you want to rag on Apple for something, then rag on them for reneging on their promise to make OpenStep runtimes available for Windoze.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Glad to see someone got the point. Darwin is for the Mac developers. If anyone else uses it, fine, but it's really for the Mac community.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
I tend to agree because Mac OS X is something of a Frankensteins monster: Apple over NextStep over BSD over Mach. Wow! what a lot of APIs to manage. I don't think this is what Ken Thompson had in mind for Unix.
Your point about software vs. hardware is well taken. Apple is more and more a hardware company and not a OS inovator. It is very weird why Apple just didn't adopt NextStep straight out, but instead had to tack on extra stuff. But because Apple has chosen hardware over software, their long term outlook is grim. They are the last of the hardware monopolists. They are still living in the days of Atari and Commodore and Apple ][ where every vendor had tight control of hardware. They stiffed BeOS by not providing specs. That was the lowest blow of all.
Will Darwin be available in the state of Kansas? If so, will it be allowed in public schools?
.....that certain (mainly if not entirely anonymous) posters around here are quick to belittle the makers of any OS which isn't open source, or worse, doesn't conform to their idea of what open source should be, or isn't Linux, etc.
;)
Come on, folks. So the APSL isn't to everyone's taste. Nor is the (L)GPL, the BSD licence, etc. But it's a step in the right direction - namely, towards the goal of producing Software Which Doesn't Suck. And that is to be welcomed. (And having had a look at the APSL I'm rather confused about which parts of it people have a problem with. After all, it's their base code, if they release it they can put whatever restrictions they damn well feel like on it.)
Comments such as "Mac is dead" don't really help the argument any. Not to mention that they fly in the face of any real evidence (the G3 and iMac seem to be doing quite well, thank you very much).
Motives aren't all that important. Companies have a strategic aim to keep existing, and that generally means making money. So if public release of source code, in Apple's view, helps them along that road - and, incidentally, releases more source to the public in the grand design of producing Software Which Doesn't Suck - I'm all for it, on both counts. If only Microsoft would follow the same route, we might even (eventually) end up with a version of Windows which didn't suck, though this is probably heresy.
I might have to go get myself a Mac now, so I can take a better look at this thing. Hmm.
"Cake or death!" (E. Izzard)
--
"This isn't the post you're looking for. Move along."
Because those stats are based on using HitBox, whose tools run only on Windows 95/98/NT. Think any Mac-centric web sites are using it? How about Slashdot? What's your next scientific piece of evidence, a survey from Windows Magazine?
Sorry but what kind of foobar device names does FreeBSD lose?
/mnt/usr2 /mnt/dos
zippy:~/kde-cvs/kdelibs$df
Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Mounted on
/dev/wd0s2a 9725723 5806594 3141072 65% /
/dev/wd0s2e 198399 88 182440 0%
/dev/wd0s1 2088096 1842112 245984 88%
procfs 4 4 0
This is real bitch with using FreeBSD. There is such an ugly spider web of dependencies, everything is cross-coupled in mysterious ways. It violates one of basic axioms of engineering complex systems: loose coupling, decoupling.
Even though I use FreeBSD, I think one of Linux's strengths is its modular nature. It is much easier to drop a software package into Linux and make it work. Under FreeBSD, software tends to break when moved between release versions. The only way to guarantee a consistent FreeBSD system is to rebuild everything (make world).
Neat, but are they allowed to have this in Kansas? ;-)
Bad things often happen to good people,
It is up to them to see that they remain good.
I agree that FreeBSD is in deep trouble. And while FreeBSD is beset with its own internal strife, it is not the only BSD to be affected by this cancer.
I read that T. Deraadt email thread when I first looked at OpenBSD, and my initial impression was that Theo had a real baaaaddd attitude. I do know for a fact that a lot of the NetBSD folks were upset to see him leave and fork off his own version of the OS, and to lose him as a developer. But in reading his email he obviously has a problem with taking any criticism, and had no problem with jumping down someone's throat with a flamethrower and foul language. Denial, its not just a river in Egypt...
Not that I wouldn't use OpenBSD, or any other operating system that met my technical needs, whatever the personality of the people involved. I've dealt with enough bad attitudes from commercial OS vendors in my years in the industry to be able to deal with it if I have to. It just seems that *BSD has an extra heaping helping of bad attitudes that make commercial vendors look like pikers.
If you *really* read that email thread, you would see the attitude loud and clear. "We don't think that it helps anything for you to tell someone he's a f**khead when he's posting a message trying to help with the OS development." "F**K YOU, *I* want control of the source and if you don't like it I'll fork my own off!"
That's my impression of it... He sounded like an immature little upset kid to me. The development of any of the O.S. OS's is a group effort, and having one person think they have all the answers and have to be the one in control is dead wrong. So, now he *has* control of his own fork of BSD, and lost the ability to maintain many of the various platform ports because he has no developers. Thus, the OpenBSD page says that for a Vax port for instance, "support can be easily ported over from NetBSD". Why these problems are so prevalent under FreeBSD/OpenBSD/NetBSD remains something of a mystery. These systems seem to be self selective in their attraction to weirdos and big egos.
Please describe some of the internal strife that wrecks FreeBSD.
Also, if if DeRaadt chooses not to support a VAX port, that is up to him and his developers. He still has half a dozen platforms OpenBSD does support. You misread that. It is an invitation to anyone who would like maintain a VAX port.
I tend to find this a good thing. It makes it dirt simple to upgrade. I've spent far too many hours downloading the latest shutils, textutils, etc for a Linux system to bring it up to date after an install. With FreeBSD, you can simple update everything once with CVS and a simple make world. If you do not want to make world, it is easy enough to make just those applications which need remaking by hand. I have never had a problem with dependencies doing this. This is made simpler by the daily snapshots.
MacOS is going down the tubes. Mac has lost its position as a software provider. What profits it has made lately have not been due to its software but to the gimicky hardware: a translucent lollypop colored computer case. Most of the the folks buying the iMac didn't care if it were running MacOS or CP/M. It was just so adorable! And it looks oh sooooh good in a Martha Stewart kitchen. Hey, with my iMac I can check the weather forcast while I sip my morning coffee! I'm high tech now.
"It is very weird why Apple just didn't adopt NextStep straight out, but instead had to tack on extra stuff. But because Apple has chosen hardware over software, their long term outlook is grim."
Oh please. If this is true why doesn't Apple take steps to sell hardware for Be and Linux users?
And since when is being an OS innovator a sign of health? If that were true Linux would be dead. There's no innovation in Linux other than the means of distribution and contribution. Its that the Linux community makes a stable OS that is drawing all the attention. And Windows isn't very innovative. Last time I checked MS was still making money hand over clenched fist on that product.
So why didn't they adopt NextStep? Well for one, they tried to. They called it Rhapsody but developers didn't want to rewrite all their apps for it and who can blame them? So they come up with the Carbon strategy.
And within the next 6 months Apple will release *2* new OSs. OSX client and Sonata/8.7/9.0 which has features your other OSs don't have.
Just because some OS isn't Linux or commands 90% market share people here think it's dead. Well fine. Until I can do graphics intensive and professional level print work on Linux I'll stick to my Mac. And don't try to push off GIMP as an answer. It's great, but doesn't have the features needed for professional designers. Maybe when Linux gets ColorSync and I can take my files down to the print shop Mac will be dead. Or maybe when I can use an Avid like OS software it will be dead. Or maybe when Adobe and Macromedia port their apps to Linux it wil be dead, but I am not holding my breath.
Wanna leach quality software again, moron?
If apple didn't suck so much, this would be great!
If you don't like LinuxPPC or NetBSD, fine, but don't come here and tell us off because we don't jump and scream YAY! every time a big corporation jumps on the Open Source bandwagon. As for SGI, they are a very different story, as they have actually contributed fabulously useful chunks of NEW code to the Linux and OSS communities. Things like large memory support, SMP scalability, and even a journalling file system.
Exactly.
For my uses, in my opinion, etc, the best thing about FreeBSD is the centralisation of source.
There is one FreeBSD. It's not a bloody pick-n-mix, but a unified software product with a clear across-the-board versioning strategy, so you know what's being installed, and where, rather than a free-for-all like Linux.
The whole pedantic argument about Linux being a kernel and not a full operating system that RMS goes on about is exactly the problem.
At the moment, buying a computer is sometimes more difficult/dangerous than buying a house or a car. You can go the easy route and get ripped off, or spend every waking minute reading up on the latest news to build yourself one.
Linux can suffer from this. If you can find a good distro, you're okay, but chances are, another distro will have features you want, and you end up with a patchwork system. How can you have any level of confidence in that?
FreeBSD.. you have a single tree maintained by a well-defined group. Everything concentrates on that (okay, let's forget about the other *BSDs here...)
As far as Darwin's concerned? I like the fact that Apple recognises the other *BSD teams and at least says they're going to work *with* them on the new MacOS NeXTy things.
It just seems that *BSD has an extra heaping helping of bad attitudes that make commercial vendors look like pikers.
You haven't dealt with the NetBSD/mac68k folks, then. A more helpful group of people you won't find anywhere on the Net.
-- Dirt Road
-- Dirt Road
Improvise - Adapt - Overcome (unofficial USMC motto)
If you're talking about "do one thing and do it well," I doubt he had Emacs in mind either. People use it anyway, although I can't understand why.
-- Dirt Road
-- Dirt Road
Improvise - Adapt - Overcome (unofficial USMC motto)
Ya know why /.-ers hate Apple, because they like the mysticism that has gone away in computers. They like the command prompts that make them look like wizards, when they are only slight-of-hand con artists. The Mac takes all this away. Any friggin moron can use a mac, and these morons actually do better and are more productive at using these machines than they are. No, ya can't get to some of the more powerful features without hacking them first and you won't find a CLI until ten...and thats going to have to be hacked out as well as Apple has already said it won't be in as a default.
Having said this, I admin Mac Servers, NT Boxez and one or two Linux (as soon as I find the right drivers for the second...) servers. I've also installed/set up everyone myself. Whats my prefered machine? The one that gets the job done the fastest and for most of my work, its my Powerbook G3 (even if I am telneting into my linux box across the building).
clif
YACU (Yet Another Clueless User) has done it again; bought into Linux as the solution to everything computerese like people think Aloe cures every skin problem.
/can/ run Linux on Apple hardware. So whats the issue? (LinuxPPC)
/forced/ to worked on the source, so how are they imposing on the community? Obviously, if you have an interest into making your OS of choice better, what could be bad about getting the critical sources to it?
The problem here:
A) You
B) MacOS is a prooven, popular OS in the media/art/music industry. Dropping MacOS would garauntee that hundreds of music makers you listen to everyday would have to switch and suffer the wrath of Windows. And all their happy music might turn to sad music.
C) "give us great software" - with Darwin, they are trying more than ever to forfit some of their proprietary knowledge to let the developers into the action. The "get developers to fix it for free" argument is stupid. No developer is
D) The USA Networks movie of which you speak (Pirates of Silicon Valley) is a movie. With actors. And lines. And stuff. Believing Jobs is exactly like how an actor protrayed him on USA Networks just goes to show that you can't formulate well thought out opinions of your own based on personal research.
The end.
"Old man yells at systemd"
I mean, it's just BSD unless you also port the Carbon and Cocoa APIs and the interface to x86.
There's nothing in it for Apple. As people often forget, Apple is a hardware manufacturer. They get the money to fund OS development from hardware sales. Port the OS to x86, and suddenly no one's buying Apple hardware anymore. No more hardware, no more money for OS development. Do you see the downward spiral here?
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
The Darwin is just a re-invention of Mach kernel, something that has been around for a long time. However, Apple owns TT patents, and there is no telling what Apple will do with it.
Right On Mocha Man!
Why indeed?
Being a very WYSYG, GUI guy yet strangely, quite a happy user of the alledgedly "dead" platform, I've never understood the vitirol directed towards Apple by many who like to think of themselves as "intelligent". Generally speaking, if we learn anything at all from history, isn't it that conformity and dogmatic indoctrination only promotes ignorance, fear, hatred and mediocraty if not outright suffering? Conversely, isn't it diversity and tolerance which ultimately is the basis for the success of egalitarian notions like Open Source?
In other words, connect the dots ye nerdy curmudgeons!
IBM releasing PPC motherboard specs, Darwin and QuickTime, multiple core G4 and Altivec, Firewire, the Mach kernal with Free BSD, OpenStep(Cocoa/YellowBox) API's for easy and powerful cross platfrom development and the icing on the cake, Quartz the new imaging engine with system wide alpha channel compositing, native HTML, vector imaging and PDF built in!
If this is not "news for nerds" or "stuff that matters" then what is?
Don't get me wrong, I have immense respect for "hacking" on any level, though only a theoretical interest for myself, but let's face it, the low level coding and higher level GUI approaches are symbiotic and need to be to ultimately succeed. And besides, great engineering is all about leveraging strengths and making practical tradeoffs isn't it?
There is no end all be all.
The point of the journey is not to arrive...
cheers!
mArtin
Little is the number that think with their own mind and feel with their own heart. ~ Albert Einstein
According to the Darwin projects page, tcsh stands for "Turbo C Shell". That's the first time I've heard that explanation; the manpage says that it's named after TENEX...
right on! you've got it in a nutshell. i do mac IT work and am familiar with NT and linux and i'd take the mac OS any day of the week.
the "mysticism" argument -- that's the best formuation of the arguement i've ever heard.
go with what gets you there the fastest.
Mindy: "Well...desserts aren't always right." Homer: "But they're so sweet!"
There will also be the users who don't want to under stand how computers work thats what Macs for.
What a bullshit generalistic statement that is. There are plenty of Mac users who know a lot about computers. I've got a Mac. An a Linux box. And a Winblows system. Don't assume that because someone likes a mac they don't grok computers.
This attitude that the easier to use one's computer is, the less that person understands 'em is a big mistake.
SCSI
'nuff said.
--Corey
Not only will they not deserve liberty or safety, Mr. Franklin, they will be DENIED both!
Please re-read your comment while keeping in mind that the Open Source community is not the same as the Linux community. Makes much less sense now, doesn't it? Sure, Apple has not contributed much to Linux (except for QT Streaming Server, for which they got promptly flamed), but they have become very active in the Open Source community at large. Mac users appreciate it.
Darwin is not meant to try to suck developers off of Linux and the other BSDen. It is meant so that Mac developers have a chance to look at the underlying parts of the system. It is meant for people who want to do 'unofficial' installs of MacOS X on older PowerMacs. It's meant to make the Mac community stronger and to allow people who use the Mac to have more freedom in how their system runs and more of a chance to fix things themselves.
It's not meant to be the replacement for Linux. It's not meant to be the replacement for all of BSD. It's just an opening of the underlying layers of a previously wholy proprietary system. It means no more secrets here.
Now for the cynical side:
It means that Apple can freely use code from the other BSD variants and certain GPLed code. Since the source to it all is available on the FTP site, they won't be violating anything by not distributing it on the Consumer version install CD, if I recall the GPL correctly. Of course, they don't HAVE to give out the code to the BSD license derived software, but I think Apple/Next learned their lesson with Objective-C and gcc and would rather have good will than potential legal hassle on the GPLed components.
Plus, why not open up the BSD layer? It's all already out there anyway, and it can only help Apple to do it.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
Cut this guy a break. I'd like to see it too. It's my understanding that this was planned by Apple from the beginning and now has been killed (probably as part of the Quicktime lawsuit settlement). I'd love to get MacOS (or Rhapsody or Darwin with the gui or whatever they're calling it this week) to run on my x86 PC. I've used Macs previously and LOVE the user interface. The only problem was that the underlying structure sucked and the machines would crash multiple times daily. If I could have the beautiful, inuitive, easy-to-use Mac gui over a *nix then my life would be much better. (And don't tell me to run E with the E-mac or Apple Platinum themes. I do and they're nice, but not the same)
Skippy
"False modesty is the refuge of the incompetent." - The Stainless Steel Rat
/dev/wd0s2a:
/mnt/usr2 - seems pretty lame to me.
Winchester Disk 0 (your first IDE disk)
Slice 2 (your second "PC" partition)
Partition a (the first BSD partition in
the BSD disk slice)
It's not really that tough.
Though I have to wonder what you've got mounted
on
--Corey
Not only will they not deserve liberty or safety, Mr. Franklin, they will be DENIED both!
Will I be able to buy it here in Kansas?
Two words, idiot.
Apple did a Linux distribution, MKLinux... LinuxPPC and MKLinux teams worked very closely together. So I think maybe Apple doesn't dislike Linux as much as you might imagine.
This is so true. I bleed six colors, but I'm no newbie. I worked as a sysadmin for Linux, Solaris, SunOS, AIX, DEC/OSF, IRIX, and HPUX for two years. I have run multiple subnets of machines running MacOS, Windows, various UNIX flavors, and other more obscure OSs. I have been programming for over 15 years and can code in more languages that I care to admit. All my friends are of similar levels of experience, and we all prefer Macs.
I love Linux/UNIX and all of their strengths, but they have never and probably will never compare to the elegence of MacOS. With MacOSX, if Apple does it right, I'll have the Mac user experience with a powerful foundation and all the nifty CLI tools to boot. It's the perfect OS.
- Vincit qui patitur.
I work w/ macs exculsively and can telll you ecaxtly y they are doing this... they want folks to port the quicktime streaming server (part of darwin) to every comceivable platform so that quicktime can (and thank god will ) CRUSH RealNetworks and the sucky realplayer hold on streaming media. Everyother part of darwin really isn't new and don't really matter to them chris
no no no.
apple is primary concerned w/ the proliferation of QT as the dominant force in streaming media, the QTR streaming server is part of darwin, and they want to see that ported evrywhere, for free, so that qt will dominate, which is fine cuz in case you didn't know qt rocks.
I'm the one who submitted the article. :o>
Actually, evolution isn't banned from public schools. The issue is just in the hands of local school districts. The state board of ed just passed the buck, and no district I know of it planning to change its curriculum. Ergo, evolution will still be taught the way it's always been.
J.
damned vulpine http://sb.drtwister.com/
I actually had intended it to be my root partition. As you can see, it ended up not being that.
The revolution will be mocked
Choice is what is in it for the community. The FreeBSD camp now has the trimmings for a PPC version. (Will this happen? Remains to be seen.) This is great news. Another great OS choice on another great hardware choice. People in graphic arts who love their Macs might enjoy an Apple marshalled free unix effort too. Imagine if Adobe jumps on the bandwagon. Score one more for Open Source. As a FreeBSD user I am excited to see this. Used to be one could search the Apple site for BSD and find little snippets referring to FreeBSD. But all is not well... How odd! The Open Source movement convinces Apple that O.S. is the really best development model but then some /.ers respond skeptically. Can only starving college CS majors be Open Source Cool(tm) to the exclusion of companies? We should all cheer this as a win! Lazy but not Anonymous, Jason C. Wells
I'm curious why it is everyone seems to be so bloody condescending toward Apple. I mean, half the postings I've seen so far are along the lines of "Who cares?" or "it's just a ploy to impress people, don't download it - it's not *pure*".
Well, so what if it is a publicity stunt? I, for one, don't believe that Apple's doing this through some sort of perverted notion of altruism. No way, they're trying to attract back some market share! But who cares?
I know Richard Stallman would likely say that it's not real free software, but listen, it's great to see a company doing this at all! People now have some new code to play with if they want; they have a new option. Maybe, just maybe, there's even something we can learn from the architecture they've thrown together. Hey, there might even be some great idea in there that could be incorporated into Linux to make it better. And perhaps not, but at least they've opened up the code to let us learn from what's there.
If nothing else, it's a new toy for interested people to play with, modify, and hack.
So Apple produces proprietary software (in general). So they don't swear alliegiance to the Free Software Foundation. Who cares? They've done something right. If someone hands you a free hamburger, you don't whine and complain that it wasn't a steak, you take it and say thanks or you leave it and say no thanks. Now I know some people are going to say "but they're trying to pass this hypothetical hamburger off as a steak!" My response: you'd have to be an idiot to believe that. They've tossed one more modification of BSD onto the table. Dissect it, hack it apart, figure out what makes it tick, or leave it alone, but please, stop whining!
u have to give some credit to the apple for trying the stunt u know. tho i sense is not about software but more about the fact that they're looking for broad market to sell the g3 kinda of line. and well we they can't deny the VA folks did bad, so well it just seems like the *inx approach that company is supporting. i know !! PPC LINUX!! well prick me for i shall pose as mere.. ignorant in this subject (apples where never my style) but... as for what my view perceeived, i think Mr.Jobs dosen't like PPC linux very much. the whole proces viewed from my limited range, is: the project has been more pushed by the people and offcourse the companies, but not how mac is supporting DARWIn or whatever... is on the damn www.apple.com site! so... well is just my view... can't blame for trying to keep the blue buddies in the market or rather expand the market view? or im really wrong... possibly high and delusional mac should rule the world and im just too tired? what ya think?
Who can first port it from the apple box's to x86 box's. Imagine apple OS on a x86 oh the humanity!
Apple believes Darwin the advantage Darwin has over other OS OS's (wow, another overloaded acronym) is that a single company will be responsible for it. Not only does that make the issue of maintenance easier, but it also ensures they can continue to force their customers to use Apple hardware.
We are seeing an outpouring of operating system choices lately. The differences between the operating systems are becoming very blurry. Where will this lead? Taking hints from Darwin's theory of evolution, the operating system(s) that survive will be the ones that adapt best in a changing environment. Apple is definitely going to have a competitor.
Mac OS X Server, as it currently stand, compiles 90% into both Intel and Mac hardware. Fact is, the Developer Release 2 (Rhapsody DR2) did ship for Intel hardware.
OpenStep shipped for Intel.
So, why didn't MOSXS ship for Intel? Support issues. There are so many issues in supporting the wide range of hardware combinasion on Intel hardware that Apple didn't wnat to get into it. So, the last couple of peices of Rhapsody were not completed for Intel, but the bulk of the OS is ready for that.
This is where Darwin gets in. So many people were upset in MOSXS not shipping for Intel that it's enough to start a movement to make Darwin compile on Intel. Most of it does. Some doesn't (current numbers are that 80% of Darwin can be compiled for Intel). The Open Source movement has the opportunity to complete and add drivers required for a complete version of the core OS to run on a wider array of intel hardware. That's what's in it for Apple.
For the users, it's a solid BSD/Mach, SMP-ready OS that wont require too much tweak before other thinks like X, Gnome, KDE etc would require to make it complete.
It's a -SERVER- OS.
Saying Apple is not being as open to consumers as it could be (by helping a rival OS on its own hardware, the BeOS) is different from saying the outlook is grim.
Linux is not ready for consumer prime time. It just isn't. Until you can hide *all* the command line functionality *all* the time there will be room for the BeOS, Windows, and other consumer-oriented OSes.
And for most consumers out there, the off-the-shelf options they have are Windows and Mac. And guess what?? There are more apps being written for the Mac, and more Macs being sold, than in many years. This is "grim"??
Sorry, but Linux will *not* be taking over the desktop any time soon.
Wow, you're so full of insight.. I wonder, do you have to change your phone number often to fend off the job offers?
Tell me, what DO you do with the millions people pay you for your wisdom..
-- I'm the root of all that's evil, but you can call me cookie..
Well, I don't think you'll be able to use CVS and make world with MacOS. I would imagine that they've customized it, and that it has branched from the BSD tree. But they can still port bug fixes and patches, if they pay attention.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
Yeah!
Last I heard, the Darwin group allowed anonymous CVS access to the source tree. It has branched, but since I have read the sources, it is very close and in some cases, nothing has changed.
Ehm, FreeBSD hasn't lost any devices or device names as long as I've used it. Get a life, get your head out of your ass, and do use Linux. You'll raise the Linux user's average IQ.
The revolution will be mocked
Get out of your basement. Discover the world. There are a lot of things out there that are pleasant to look at, to touch, to experience. Maybe this will cure you of your bitter disdain for anyone out there who doesn't spend 22 hours a day playing with command lines. You are not better in any way than someone who doesn't care about the processes running inside the household appliance that they use for internet access. The fact that they don't want to be surrounded with ugly tower cases with their covers removed and ribbon cables hanging out of them is perfectly OK. Many people would rather live in pleasant surroundings. Their highly developed aesthetic probably means they are at least as capable of applying their intelligence to everyday life as you are. Possibly more.
I swear I have seen this Kansas thing before. Is there such a thing as a /. bot?
Being that a t1 costs $1500 a month typical, and cable and dsl are no where to be seen, $29 ain't open source. For those of us not sopping off the work line (or if the work budget is pocket change) the only free way is modem. Even if you subtract next day fedex 8:00am ($1 says it goes UPS ground at BEST ;) the$29 cd price is a joke. See cheapbytes.com and the like for realistic pricing. Microsoft could take some clues as well for its 'free patch' mailings.
and look at the real world living and breathing outside the walls of your cool, dark little room.
99% of the consumer market would NEVER give half a piece of crap for the ability to screw with source code, re-compile a kernal, set up a GUI, or scour the 'net for help on how to set up PPP.
To them, the perfect computer is one that you plug in, turn on, and start to play. A great computer is one that is so transparent that it allows you to do what you need to do, with no hassle. The computer is not supposed to get in the damn way.
Take it or leave it, but the Mac is the closest thing this world has to a great computer.
If you don't agree, then I'm pretty sure there are plenty of flashing lights somewhere that need your attention.
One word: FreeBSD sux.
I'll give you tits if you want more, I'll give you pussy if you want more, but if you want more knowledge? Get out!
Xah
xah@best.com
http://www.best.com/~xah/PageTwo_dir/more.html
MacOS will be the next proprietary OS (after SCO and IRIX) to be crushed by the Linux movement. The advantage MacOS offers over Linux - its homogeneity - is dwarfed by the disadvantage - Linux has a much larger potential for growth, it works on ALL those hundreds of millions of x86 boxes. Research and Development will flow towards Linux.
I doubt we'll see Microsoft do anything similar. Apple obviously knows this as well. More power to them.
-sYme
I am inclined to believe that this is a Good Thing(tm). Of course they did it for a marketing objective. Everything every company does is for a marketing objective, to make money in the long/short run. That isn't wrong. What is wrong is to not play fair, to force everyone else's hand, to damage the overall industry to get ahead (and if you have any idea who I'm talking about, good for you). I don't see anything wrong with what Apple has done.
:P.
Potential for bad: some hackers waste their time.
Potential for good: We're actually going to know what is going on behind a commercialized OS. We've all heard the rumors about the crazy stuff in Win98 code:
// There is a memory leak here, but I can't figure out what causes it...
or
// Crashes here. I would fix it, but release is next week, so no time. We'll get it in the service pak.
and of course
if(appID=APPID_NETSCAPE_NAVIGATOR){
SetTimer(random,CrashIt)
}
if(dosVer&DOSVER_DRDOS){
MessageBox("Your machine is running an unstable operating system. Upgrade to MSDOS 5.0.");
}
So obviously if they are willing to let the source out, they are comfortable with it. They are confident about it. They have nothing to hide, and can prove it (at least for the part released, which appears to be the most critical part of the OS). No more secrets. This is a Good Thing.
Ok, so it's license sucks rocks. So? I wouldn't expect a whole lot of big user development on their kernel. I don't think that is the point. I'm sure they'll accept and take a look at all submitted bug fixes, but that isn't the point either.
The point is that everyone can study the OS and know everything about it that they need for programming the Mac. I'm reminded of the source code to the original PC BIOS that appeared in the appendix of the original IBM Technical Reference manual (still good reading, by the way, if you do low-level PC programming). I learned a lot about what was going on. When I had a question about "what exactly does this function do," and the docs were sketchy, I could jump to the assembly code in the appendix and figure it out. For some things, the BIOS source was my only doc - like how to program the timer chips, etc.
With MS's OS's you can't do that. And believe me, the docs are sketchy sometimes. With no source to look at when things get confusing, you're always hoping that there is someone on some newsgroup with the answer. And the MS Word team gets privy info on the undocumented API's. None of that with an OS OS
I don't think I'll ever look at the code. I'm stuck in a rut programming my PC under FreeBSD, Linux and Windows. But for those who do need to do a lot of programming on Mac boxes, I have a feeling that this will help a bunch.
Hope that made sense. Happy hacking!
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
Frankly, end-users aren't likely to bother viewing QuickTime content any more than they absolutely have to, with the poor quality of QT video.
I agree. What many of the hacker geeks on here seem to forget is that 99.9% of people don't give a shit about linux. They want a computer that is easy to use. Although I am not a programmer(Thank God!!!!), I am fairly decent with computer stuff. All I know is that, for the common joe, Linux is abut a million light years from being easy to use. There will always be a place for Apple in the market because they make products that are easy to use. Regardless of what any bullshit computer geek here says, Linux is not. Go Apple!
asdfsdafds
"My works are like water. The works of the great masters is like wine, but everybody drinks water."
--Mark Twain
That Steve Jobs is a hyprocrite.
Add that to snake oil salesman, child welfare payment cheat, and liar.
What a company....what a society that worships a man like Steve.
a test comment for the load balanced server
see, it works great.
:)
I learned something, you learned something, and everyone reading your post learned something. Stop complaining and keep talking...
I want to learn more
You can download FreeBSD tonight if you're feeling horny for a Darwin-like encounter on X86. It's a very good answer in it's own right to many questions --probably not what you're looking for though. But in that case Darwin would leave you limp as well. Both are about as far as you can get from the MacOS user experience without breaking out the Data-mation punch cards and ditching your monitor for a teletype keyboard input/lineprinter output.
Not that there's anything wrong with that...
Here's why Linux will never crush MacOS: it's not good enough.
I've been working with Linux, I've looked through the code, I've tried multiple distros. The whole thing has left me totally unimpressed.
I can understand that people who've grown up using win 3.1 and win 95 would feel different. But anyone who has ever enjoyed the elegant, consistent UI of MacOS (or NEXTSTEP for that matter) will never settle for less.
i've setup a mirror of the 0.3 release in australia since quite a few people have difficulty getting a hold of a 44M file.
ftp://mirror.aarnet.edu.au/pub/darwin/
does anyone know anyone in apple to talk to about
actually arranging mirrors ? i can't get anyone to
answer mail..
-jason
And in other news: recent studies suggest that the illiterate are posting to internet discussion boards in unprecedented numbers. This story and others at six.
Touret's syndrome. A cure can be found. For the price of one cup of coffee per day, you can help fight this terrible affliction.