More Mission-Critical Linux

This makes a lot of sense. by mikej · 1999-09-01 03:09 · Score: 1

This is the type of thing at which unix systems
excel. It's nice to see that more and more companies are realizing that NT just can't handle this type of thing effectively. It's also nice to see that the unix of choice is increasingly linux.

--
Ideology breeds Hypocrisy. Just how much is up to you.

Re:This makes a lot of sense. by dattaway · 1999-09-01 03:42 · Score: 2

When the phone calls always go through and a bill arrives every month without fail (yuck!) I doubted it was the hyped borg software of a Big Evil Software Company behind it all. Unlike a certain naval destroyer that had a "invalid entry" that crashed the *entire network* the phone company seems to be put together with common sense, not marketing. Nothing like peer reviewed software watching all those switches.

more stuff by Manes · 1999-09-01 03:10 · Score: 1

I really like the "Linux means business" column in
Linux-journal. Are there any websites/articles/whatever with info/articles about the firms that rely on linux each day?

sweet by Anonymous Coward · 1999-09-01 03:10 · Score: 0

this rocks hard!

States by Anonymous Coward · 1999-09-01 03:12 · Score: 0

Umm, Is it my imagination but isnt the abreviation for Kansas "KS" not "KA"?

Re:States by Atanasov · 1999-09-01 03:56 · Score: 1

As a resident of the much maligned state of Kansas...Yes it is "KS."
Cody in Lawrence (Birthplace of Lynx)

Not to be a nitpicking bastard, but... by Anonymous Coward · 1999-09-01 03:12 · Score: 0

Don't you mean MO and KS? The USPS never had a KA abbreviation, if I'm not mistaken.

Re:Not to be a nitpicking bastard, but... by Crafter · 1999-09-01 03:24 · Score: 1

Yes, as a contractor currently placed here in Kansas, I can verify that my paychecks say KS when they mail them to me.
Re:Not to be a nitpicking bastard, but... by SoftwareJanitor · 1999-09-01 04:19 · Score: 2

Now, now... You forget that Hemos also failed grade school geography as well as spelling and english... :-)

BTW -- No offense intended Hemos, I am just kidding.

Technical Accuracy by irix · 1999-09-01 03:15 · Score: 1

It's a trade rag, you you would expect a bit better than the media at large.

They can get some stuff right:

Linux--the UNIX-like operating system

But other stuff so wrong:

SGI revealed that it is dumping IRIX, its own version of UNIX, in favor of Linux

Not!

I was also amused to see that they are running Red Hat 4.2. Assuming they got that detail correct :)

--

Do you even know anything about perl? -- AC Replying to Tom Christiansen post.

Re:Technical Accuracy by dirty · 1999-09-01 04:00 · Score: 2

Also, Linux did not get SMP support earlier this year. It got BETTER SMP support, but it had it prior to this. Or maybe I'm mistaken and the company I worked for last year just imagined that they had a dual ppro-180 running linux (which did report both cpus). Other than a few nits I think it was an excellent article overall. I really love the part about linux saving them adminning time and cost. Especially since microsoft is spewing FUD about how Linux might cost less upfront but requires more money do admin.

--

-matt
Re:Technical Accuracy by SoftwareJanitor · 1999-09-01 04:28 · Score: 2

I was also amused to see that they are running Red Hat 4.2. Assuming they got that detail correct :)

A lot of people don't run recent distributions on production machines because they don't want to tinker with a working system (one can certainly debate the wisdom of that). Another thing to consider is the lead time between when stories are written and published. When it comes to webified versions, there is sometimes a lag between when the online version appears and the print version (to help keep the paper circulation going I guess).
Re:Technical Accuracy by Mark+J+Tilford · 1999-09-01 09:00 · Score: 1

Also, they also mentioned that the average uptime was 318 days, and that one had been running continuously since it was turned on in April 1998. I don't think RH 5.1 was yet available, and considering all the trouble that RH 5.0 had, I can understand them skipping that release.
-----------

--
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100% pure freak

my favorite line by Anonymous Coward · 1999-09-01 03:21 · Score: 0

Two of the computers are hot-standby backup machines, which have never been used.

:)

Re:my favorite line by Anonymous Coward · 1999-09-01 03:31 · Score: 0

My favorite part ....
"The Linux systems make up about 10% of the computers in the company's Kansas City network center. Keeping them running, however,has required only about one-tenth of one percent of his group's system administration time. Kessell calculates that his department has had to hire one less technician, at an average salary of around $40,000 a year, because of Linux' reliability."
Re:my favorite line by Sun+Tzu · 1999-09-01 03:59 · Score: 2

"...none of the Linux systems has ever failed." ;)

--
Geeky modern art T-shirts
Re:my favorite line by SoftwareJanitor · 1999-09-01 04:23 · Score: 2

at an average salary of around $40,000 a year

Wow, they find cheap technicians. Around here (only about 3 hours from KC) you can't touch a decent tech for less than about $45-$50k. That also doesn't figure in benefits or expenses (a computer, a phone, a desk, etc) related to having an employee. The salary is just one factor (albiet a large one) in the cost of an employee.
Re:my favorite line by Bloater · 1999-09-01 07:55 · Score: 1

phone company == penny pinching == interns ;)

Yes, even interns can admin Linux boxes - it's that easy.

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Re:my favorite line by malice95 · 1999-09-01 11:30 · Score: 1

Wow, they find cheap technicians. Around here (only about 3 hours from KC) you can't touch a decent tech for less than about $45-$50k. That also doesn't figure in benefits or expenses (a computer, a phone, a desk, etc) related to having an employee. The salary is just one factor (albiet a large one) in the cost of an employee.

Heh here in NJ you cant touch a decent Unix admin
for under 70k:) And being a Unix Admin I like it
that way:) But yes there are a lot more expenses
that go into an employee then salary. You need to
pay the other 1/2 of social security, Workers
Comp..etc. About 20k of my per hour income goes
into paying those things and benefits for myself.
(I am a contractor). And then I get the remainder
as a paycheck which gets hit with income taxes,
social security, etc.. figure in just salary alone
it cost a company 20-25% more then what you get.
and as the previous poster pointed out. there are
the other associated expenses to help you do your
job. Unfortunatly I have a bad feeling that if
linux becomes prevolent and replaces OS's like
solaris and HP in the corporate environment we may
see a reduction in admin salaries. "Why do I have
to pay a senior unix admin 80k-110k admin a free
os?" (NY/NJ pay scale). Of course I could be
wrong:) Not like it hasnt happened before:)

Malice95

Re:Proof! by Anonymous Coward · 1999-09-01 03:26 · Score: 0

Get thee to hell, Gates. crawl back to your primitive Micro$loth.

first post troll by Anonymous Coward · 1999-09-01 03:28 · Score: 0

the "first post" crowd really sucks. even more than rob sucks/HEMOSSUX/slashdot sucks/this poll sucks/andover sUX.

Wait until they finish rebooting by Ripp · 1999-09-01 03:31 · Score: 0

Duh!

--
Blech. Signatures.

MORON (Was Re:FIRST POST!!@!!@!@!@) by Anonymous Coward · 1999-09-01 03:31 · Score: 0

'nuff said. You "First Post" kiddies need to calm the fsck down. Especially, when you are about #14. Try relavant posts for a change...it will keep me from making these posts.

this is bad by Anonymous Coward · 1999-09-01 03:34 · Score: 3

i live in kansas and i think this will make the phones unstable cuz linux is a slow bugged virus infested OS made by crakers. this is my o pin yun. if you disagree then ur dumb!!! z3r0kewl453@aol.com mail me!!!

What about that Navy ship? by Anonymous Coward · 1999-09-01 03:39 · Score: 0

I seem to recall that ship getting more than its fair share of coverage on slashdot. Or did you just mean companies that are successfully using NT for mission critical projects?

Re:What about that Navy ship? by flatrbbt · 1999-09-01 04:02 · Score: 1

I assume you are referring to the navy ship that had to be towed back in because the entire ships system went down over their control box doing a blue screen... I would suspect if it had gotten much better since then we would have heard about it from the microsoft PR trolls.

--
Ex Libris Veritas
Re:What about that Navy ship? by shadrax · 1999-09-01 04:29 · Score: 1

Here is an article about the ship that went down--I think this is the incident you're referring to. Most amusing.

And RT Linux for everything else... by Anonymous Coward · 1999-09-01 03:44 · Score: 0

RT Linux is really cool. Sound sampling, data sampling, anyplace where you need to do something exactly at time t. Linux actually runs on top of the tiny RT kernel, and has extensions to get down to it. Very stable stuff.

Telephone Co. and Unix by ch-chuck · 1999-09-01 03:45 · Score: 1

(I know, Linux Is Not UniX)
now, who would have ever guessed.

Another one saved from the dark side.

Chuck

--
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }

Maybe Linux is bad??? by mach-5 · 1999-09-01 03:45 · Score: 1

"Kessell calculates that his department has had to hire one less technician, at an average salary of around $40,000 a year, because of Linux' reliability."

Hmmm. This could be bad for Network Admins or IS ppl. More Linux=Less Jobs???

Re:Maybe Linux is bad??? by Tau+Zero · 1999-09-01 03:55 · Score: 1

More like, more Linux, less busy-work, no company pager calling you into the office at 2 AM to fix all the crashes, etc.
Anything that increases the productivity of a technical person is great. It means that one techie can do even more stuff without breaking a sweat, and the more stuff you can take care of, the more value you create and the more money you can make. Or haven't you noticed that people whose productivity is stagnant, like floor-sweepers, haven't enjoyed the same run-up in income as the tech sector? Remember that.

--
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
Re:Maybe Linux is bad??? by gwynedd · 1999-09-01 09:04 · Score: 1

You get an A in Econ. The Fewer people doing the job means $ for the company and the worker, and with IT the work is never done. His comment is a nice reminder of MS innovation however.

Moderate this up! It's pretty funny! by DaKrushr · 1999-09-01 03:45 · Score: 1

Wish I had mod access.... Used to get it all the time, now I don't :(.

I have to wonder why they chose Linux... by Anonymous Coward · 1999-09-01 03:49 · Score: 2

Instead of FreeBSD. It being technically superior and all.

OK. That was a troll.

"Keeping them running, however, has required only about one-tenth of one percent of his group's system administration time. Kessell calculates that his department has had to hire one less technician, at an average salary of around $40,000 a year, because of Linux' reliability."

Read "Linux costs jobs in Kansas." Certainly if I were a Windows Consultant, I wouldn't want to dry up a potential cash cow by installing a remarkably stable and reliable operating system on a customer's computers. Not when I can continue to rake in those big bucks fixing their system every few weeks at $120+ an hour.

OK. That was a troll too.

"This is partly because, in many regards, Linux is still an immature operating system, says Potter. Symmetric multiprocessing (SMP) support for Linux, for example, only became available earlier this year."

Um, excuse me? I've been using it for close to 3 on my dual pentium box. Please don't quote crack monkies in the future.

Re:Philosophical Accuracy (was Re:Technical Accura by Anonymous Coward · 1999-09-01 03:51 · Score: 0

What are you talking about? Subjectivity is the hallmark of the consumer era, and the postmodern society that we live in now.

Places that already use NT by timothy · 1999-09-01 03:53 · Score: 2

I know this was a sarcastic post, but I guess the non-sarcastic point to make here is that Linux, for all of its good points, is definitely an outsider in most companies. Not necessarily ill-thought-of (esp. in the IT depts) but IT departments are not the only ones involved.

That's why it's interesting when big companies (or small companies, for that matter) have evaluated Linux (and probably the other obvious choices made by MS, or other versions of UNIX) and said "Hey, we'll go with choice B, which is cheap and has lots of good features!" rather than choice A, conservative and ubiquitous.

I think even people who like the MS OSes would find this an interesting piece of news. The status quo isn't as interesting ...

It's neat if a person lives to be 120 then jumps straight into Paradise; much less so when a person dies at 79 of long-known causes. Eh?

timothy

--
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5

Re:Proof! by flatrbbt · 1999-09-01 03:58 · Score: 1

agreed.
There are years of hard work and careful design in the Linux kernel and gnu packages that make up the o/s. It didnt happen by random chance. It makes a perfect Kansas showcase of "intelligent design".

--
Ex Libris Veritas

HOWTO: Avoiding Linux Stories. by Anonymous Coward · 1999-09-01 04:00 · Score: 1

Okay. You don't like it? Then:

1. Get an account at Slashdot.

2. Go to your Preferences Page.

3. Scroll down until you see the "Exclude Stories from the Homepage" section.

4. Select "Linux" from "Topics".

5. Scroll down until you see the "saveuser" button.

6. Click it.

7. Shut the fsck up.

Thank you.

SMP by zuvembi · 1999-09-01 04:01 · Score: 1

This is partly because, in many regards, Linux is still an immature operating system, says Potter. Symmetric multiprocessing (SMP) support for Linux, for example, only became available earlier this year."

I sent the author a note to the effect that this was bunk, he got back to me and acknowledged that he was incorrect. However, whether that means a correction will ever be posted is another matter.

Jiffy wrap around by dirty · 1999-09-01 04:02 · Score: 2

IIRC the kernel shipped w/ RedHat 4.2 (had to be something in 2.x right?) had some potential jiffy wrap around bugs that occured at 465 days or so on intel. I think the problems have been fixed by now, I just hope they've tested these systems or else they might get it hard in a little while. Although the bugs weren't always serious, afaik the only reported problem was uptime reporting 0days of uptime after 465 days.

--

-matt

One less employee? by Anonymous Coward · 1999-09-01 04:02 · Score: 0

Something I've thought of finally. If Linux is so good, and everyone will be using it someday because it is so good, does that mean that every company will continue to cut the number of employees? Linux doesn't take near as much man power to keep stable, as the article stated. In this case Linux could be a bad thing. I think I'll take my chances though, seeing as how if we can get as much NT out of the market, the better off everyone will be.

Re:One less employee? by ez8 · 1999-09-01 04:12 · Score: 1

What do you think happened to all the whip and buggy makers at the turn of the century? They got jobs somewhere else. Besides have you noticed? There aren't a shortage of jobs in the US.

Or maybe those NT admins that would have been working in Kansas are out of work, at home, and making prank calls all day.
Re:One less employee? by Anonymous Coward · 1999-09-01 04:25 · Score: 1

In that case, why not poison the food in your company's cafeteria, because that'll keep the doctors in business. And also let's remove the sprinkler systems, to put food on the firefighters' tables. Hmmm, and go back to using typewriters, because many a typewriter technician has been put out of work with this new computer fad. Actually, let's get rid of publishing and printing presses altogether, because far too many a professional scribe has been itching for work in the last several hundred years.
It's called progress!! People's occupations change to adapt to the current state of technology. It really pisses me off to see how people's greed for money stagnates the advancement of humanity. For example, audio CD's were capable of being produced long before they were actually produced, but record companies wanted to milk as much out of the tape market as they could. This type of thing permeates the whole economy, argh!
Anyway, I'd rather have my job easier than keep another fat M$ techie in business by fixing my computer several times per year. It's cheaper for all involved, and if this techie then quit and learned linux, (s)he could make a far more respectable living as well!
Re:One less employee? by Anonymous Coward · 1999-09-01 09:17 · Score: 0

Remember, this is what capitalism is all about: making money in whatever way is legal. Capitalism has nothing to do with politics, eg. it exists in both democrazies and totalitarian communities.
USA and perhaps Canada, but less so, are probably good examples of totalitarian countries that *really* tries to enforce capitalism at the expense of the personal freedom, in favor of larger cooperations and the good of 'the country'. In Canada this is apparent in Ontario, which I tend to look upon as the economic locomotive of that country and therefore also trendsetter in this respect.

If you have a country where you explicitly have to register to vote and not all people living and paying taxes in the country can vote for the politicians in the country, I will call it a stretch to call it truly democratic.

You are right, though, that progress usually benefits the most people and that only some change will be necessary, and luddites never will acomplish any better good for anyone.

Peter

AKA lalleglad
Re:One less employee? by gwynedd · 1999-09-01 09:25 · Score: 1

This sounds like the true voodoo economics of Keynes where $1 of snot is worth $1 oatmeal. Paying somone for nothing is a $1's worth of snot.
I prefer oatmeal in the morning myself.
Much of this silly way of thinking can be found in the media where economic good news is counted in "job creation" instead of wealth creation. Job creation can augment distribution of wealth but productive jobs do both (distribution and creation of wealth). Two hundred years ago employment was 100% in a realitively unproductive agrarian society.
Sorry for the Econ. lecture in a tech forum but it is a pet peev of mine and productivity is what this game is about.
Re:One less employee? by Anonymous Coward · 1999-09-01 09:47 · Score: 0

I'm not a communist, but I'm also not a capitalist. I find myself disliking capitalism more and more. The thing that really bugs me is the sacrificing of everything for money. Most big businesses don't make decisions on what will produce the best product, or what is the best for their customers, but choose the route that'll produce the most money. They sacrifice quality where they can for a few extra bucks. This is most apparent in the arts industries (eg, music and movies) where the bands that are signed aren't chosen for their talent/grooves but instead on what'll sell the most, right now geared towards the generation Y'ers. Same with TV, the shows aired are based on whatever they think will give nielsons, not on the drama/wit/humor/etc.
If I mention this to people, they usually justify it by saying what you have, namely that this is what capitalism is all about. I think in some respects capitalism is good, for those that work hard are rewarded with the ability to buy more goods/services. But eventually this becomes the sole drive of corporations (eg, M$FT). And thus the freedom of the people and quality of life begins to degrade. (IMHO, of course)
Re:One less employee? by Mark+Pitman · 1999-09-01 10:38 · Score: 1

I don't think most places have all the staff they need right now. So, maybe Linux will not get rid of jobs, just make life a little less hectic for all the overworked sysadmins out there.

Wait til they finish... by Anonymous Coward · 1999-09-01 04:02 · Score: 0

moderating your worthless response down...

They use RH4.2 by ez8 · 1999-09-01 04:03 · Score: 1

When I upgraded from 4.2, I knew it was a mistake.
This just confirms it.

The best releases (of RH... maybe) are behind us, but the best is yet to come.

"Well, thats a dumb idea." - Peter Cord of the Jupiter Consultants Group on embedded linux

It doesn't matter... by Anonymous Coward · 1999-09-01 04:04 · Score: 0

The Linux sheep follow me wherever I go.

Re:It doesn't matter... by Anonymous Coward · 1999-09-01 07:45 · Score: 0

LOL! A Microsoft user calling anyone a sheep... Biggest laugh I've had today...
Re:It doesn't matter... by Anonymous Coward · 1999-09-01 08:12 · Score: 0

What makes you sure that was a Microsoft user? Could be a BSD troll, or a BeOS slave, or a Macintosh zealot....

(!Linux) != Microsoft....
Re:It doesn't matter... by Anonymous Coward · 1999-09-01 10:46 · Score: 0

You're wrong on BE, they are just stupid.

ACTUALLY you meant *AR*, MO, and KS by blach · 1999-09-01 04:05 · Score: 1

Southwestern bell operates in other states besides MO and KS, including a large part of Arkansas.

Not that I'm defending them. They're good intentioned, customer service is very polite (my company leases about 8 voice T1s), but man they sure are slow to bring services to us (at least in AR).

We just now got ISDN in my home town. THIS YEAR, 1999. xDSL probably won't be here for a decade. *sigh*

James

Look at the article again by HeUnique · 1999-09-01 04:05 · Score: 1

Take a look at the article again. Specially the part which talks about IBM products and Lotus products. she mentions there that THERE WILL BE A LOTUS NOTES CLIENT.. Does she knows anything that wasn't announced yet??

--
Hetz (Heunique)

You mean Arkansas has phones? by blach · 1999-09-01 04:07 · Score: 1

You mean you have TELEPHONES in arkansas??

Well I just thought I would beat any smart ass bastard to the punch since people actually think we walk around without shoes here (well maybe we do in the summer..).

No seriously. We're not ALL hillbillies (although its against the law in the state to make fun of hillbillies).

Have a good one:)
James

Re:You mean Arkansas has phones? by Microlith · 1999-09-01 04:35 · Score: 1

Damn. I love making fun of them. Anyways, in Little Rock, SWBell has brought in xDSL service, up to Sherwood, and in Cabot, the local cable company offers cable modems. Now I live in Jacksonville, so...

Hurry up GT(fscking)E!! Get OUT!

MS doesn't get enough press coverage? by Anonymous Coward · 1999-09-01 04:11 · Score: 0

I'm sorry, I guess I thought that Bill G and company would have enough money to spend on marketing and press coverage from all those licenses they sell? So now they are asking the open source/free software movement to help out with all those feel good stories about NT? I guess they used up all their money with boring TV commercials and coding the dancing paper clip?

Get a clue pal.

Linux given "thumbs down"? by Anonymous Coward · 1999-09-01 04:26 · Score: 0

I was very surprised to read in the article that boeing, after a six month evaluation, gave Linux "thumbs down". Does anyone know why?

Re:Linux given "thumbs down"? by gwynedd · 1999-09-01 09:38 · Score: 1

Penquins are better dressed than many IT managers?
MIS curriculum has in my opinion an emphasis on the M-management instead of information technology
in the IT; I have seen some of the curriculum myself. If the aftershave on the suit smells better than the B.O. behind coke bottle glasses then the CIO goes with the suit.
In other words upper management has no clue what the heck is going on in technology.
Re:Linux given "thumbs down"? by Anonymous Coward · 1999-09-01 11:31 · Score: 0

Boeing HQ = Washington M$ HQ = Washington Get the picture? IT'S A CONSPIRACY AHHHHHHHH
Re:Linux given "thumbs down"? by Anonymous Coward · 1999-09-01 11:58 · Score: 0

At LinuxToday someone was discussing the business deal young m$ had with boeing, whereby m$ provides boeing (or did, at one point) all their software for free. A lucky deal (well, lucky relatively speaking compared to those firms that actually shell out money for m$ products) that they may not be likely to end anytime soon.
of course that brings the scary premonition about the OS used in the planes. Would you allow your plane to crash several times per month?
Re:Linux given "thumbs down"? by Anonymous Coward · 1999-09-01 14:31 · Score: 0

M$ is a 30 minute drive to any of the WA state Boeing plants...The support contract between the 2 companies requires immediate on-site support by M$ when >>ahem "necessary~
Re:Linux given "thumbs down"? by Black+Parrot · 1999-09-01 22:18 · Score: 2

Still and all, there's this to consider. Skip straight to the bottom paragraph, where you'll find a small raspberry for Redmond. From Boeing.

--
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade

Linux Winning - will it hurt you? by Bombcar · 1999-09-01 04:28 · Score: 2

Two things - the article said, near the end, that they were able to hire one less technician because Linux never failed them. Hmmm. If Linux takes over, then there are going to be some techs out of business (mostly MSCE's, but still....) Next - WE SHOULD ENCOURAGE WINDOWS 2000. Nothing else is going to give use Linux users a sea of free hardware - PII MINIMUM for W2K. I can still run Linux fine on a Pentium 233 MMX with a 4 gig HD - but those will be almost free after W2k comes out.
Just some thoughts..........
http://www.bombcar.com It's where it is at.

--
Fellowship 9/11

I thought it had been by Indomitus · 1999-09-01 04:34 · Score: 1

I was under the impression that this had already been announced awhile ago. Maybe I heard it as a rumor and it fit with IBM's rush into Linux in recent times so I believed it.

From a user of SWB by Anonymous Coward · 1999-09-01 04:38 · Score: 0

I hear static on my phone line..I wonder what linux problem that is? Anyone..?

Re:another fluffy piece of self gratification by Anonymous Coward · 1999-09-01 07:38 · Score: 0

Well, what's the good of formal testing and verification when NT goes through it and still ends up sucking diseased donkey nuts?

MORON (Learn how to spell) by Anonymous Coward · 1999-09-01 07:40 · Score: 0

You people who can't spell need to use dictionaries or something. It is relevant, not relavant.

Re:So when can we start posting... by Anonymous Coward · 1999-09-01 07:43 · Score: 1

Yep, this is Slashdot, not the Bill Gates Fellatio Club. If you don't like it, go read MSNBC...

Stay on the line, please sir. by CraigMcPherson · 1999-09-01 08:16 · Score: 2

WHY THEY DON'T RUN NT

I understand, sir. We'll dispatch the police to your house just as soon as we reboot. Please stay on the line, sir. Is the murderer nearby? Yes sir, I understand, but please stay on the line, we're rebooting. Please hold! Scandisk is still running. It'll only be a bit longer. OKAY, THERE'S NO NEED TO SCREAM! Please stay on the line. Sir, I'm sorry, it looks like we've got a problem here... a registry corruption. It won't boot. Can you hold a bit longer? Sir? Sir? What was that screaming sound? Oh, hell... blue screen again.

Re:Stay on the line, please sir. by poink · 1999-09-01 10:56 · Score: 1

NT has AUTOCHK/CHKDSK not scandisk.

Sorry. I have seen it run so many times lately...

FYI: the application failed, not NT by Loge · 1999-09-01 08:27 · Score: 2

As this article correctly points out, the failure occurred in the application -- not Windows NT itself. The divide-by-zero condition caused the program to go into a tight loop, which made it unresponsive to other applications across the network that depended on it. The result was a chain reaction that evidently froze control of the propulsion system. Also, if I remember correctly, the failure of the NT application did *not* cause the ship to be towed into port, although it did force the ship to idle at sea for several hours while the network was rebooted -- the towing incident resulted from some other, unspecified failure related to the use of on-board LAN technology, in which NT may or may not have been the culprit.

Shortly after these incidents, they were reported in a single article (Computer Reseller News, I believe) at moderately competent detail, based largely on the complaints of the "whistle blower" mentioned in this article as well. But that one CRN article was summarized with diminishing fidelity in several other editorials, which were then widely replicated thanks to the magic of syndication, and the incident eventually became the part of Windows folklore in mutated form, along the lines of "the main server blue-screened when the navigator punched in a new course".

It hardly seems fair to blame NT for an application failure. Moreover, the complaints about the Navy cutting costs by using NT seem targeted instead at the broader isssue of replacing expensive, but reliable, fault-tolerant systems with commodity and LAN-based technology, rather than an attack on NT itself. As described, this type of failure could have happened just as easily if the on-board systems had been running Linux.

Re:FYI: the application failed, not NT by Black+Parrot · 1999-09-01 10:46 · Score: 2

I have to concede that you're right about the ship. The first reports contained claims that I interpreted as strong circumstantial evidence that the problem was a BSOD, but what little info has dribbled out since then does not seem to support that idea.

Without reference to NT, I think the Navy's COTS policy is dangerously insane, and if the whistleblower was right it seems to be a push from a single highly-placed individual that no one can/will stand up to. One can only hope he's due to retire soon, and be replaced by someone who knows the difference between a capital ship and a consumer desktop.

Truth is, I wouldn't even recommend Linux in that particular role, at least not unless they "certified" some version after an extensive audit.

Also, COTS or no, it's alarming that such a simple error wasn't caught by testing on dry land. I doubt that the ship was ever in the least danger (barring a surprise war), but a sea trial was a pretty expensive way to catch one of the most basic of errors ("test the input at the extremities").

Get a clue, Navy. Too cheap can turn out to be unaffordably expensive. A system is no more reliable than the software that runs it, and I notice that you aren't turning to COTS ships and aircraft yet.

--
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade

Misleading article? Not a troll... by Zico · 1999-09-01 08:38 · Score: 1

Maybe I misread something, but it didn't seem like Linux, contrary to Hemos's claim, had anything to do with people's phone calls going through. The story sounded like Bell was just using Linux for monitoring, not that it was doing any of the actual grunt work; i.e., Linux is just making sure that the computers actually running the show are operating properly. The statement that Linux was only used in about 10% of the computers seems to jibe with this.

Cheers,
ZicoKnows@hotmail.com

The Boeing Evaluation by Zoloft · 1999-09-01 08:41 · Score: 1

Was this report made public? Why did the Boeing
execs reject it - do they give a detailed explanation?

--
Zoloft

Why this works out well. by Anonymous Coward · 1999-09-01 10:23 · Score: 0

I work for a large anonymous telco. It sounds like they're doing something very similar to us. We have a (third party) network element monitoring system. Currently, it is running on a combination of ~120 NEXT and NT boxes. (That's right... Steve's old boxes and Bill's flagship.)

The entire system is currently being compacted into two Sun E10000 domains with about ten processors each. (Datacenter consolidation being the driving force here.)

The reason why the system works so well over a large number of small machines is that each machine covers a small area of the network. And the parts of the network being monitored on each machine can be shifted around on the fly. So if one of the server suffers an outage, the affected network elements are covered by a different box.

Management headaches are far less with only two systems doing the monitoring. (The only downside is that it takes gigabit ethernet to be able to cover the storm of alarms in a major failure.) But just going with Linux would have been a great way to cut down on the headaches and save money.

I wouldn't call this system as critical as, say, collecting toll records from the switches. But it is a fundamental part of a large telephone network.

Re:another fluffy piece of self gratification by J4 · 1999-09-01 10:27 · Score: 1

_diseased_ donkey nuts?
LOL _comedic_ innovation

Re:another fluffy piece of self gratification by Black+Parrot · 1999-09-01 10:51 · Score: 2

The problem is, as soon as the engineers sign off on the testing and verification, Bill Gates walks through the lab and says "Make it more like the Mac."

--
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade

yea but--- by Ensign+Nemo · 1999-09-01 11:04 · Score: 1

Because it has such a grave consequence, a divide by zero generates an interrupt. At least on the x86 and I'm pretty sure on all other archs too (correct me if I'm wrong). This interrupt is trappable and the OS should respond accordingly. Linux will core dump as will other UNIX's. So really it is the OS's fault for not catching this.
IMVHO

Re:yea but--- by Anonymous Coward · 1999-09-01 15:25 · Score: 0

"This interrupt is trappable and the OS should respond accordingly. Linux will core dump as will other UNIX's. So really it is the OS's fault for not catching this." A divide by zero casts a software exception and it is the application's responsibility to catch and deal with the exception.
Re:yea but--- by Anonymous Coward · 1999-09-01 22:55 · Score: 0

"A divide by zero casts a software exception and it is the application's responsibility to catch and deal with the exception."...and it is the OS responsability not to crash if the application don't deal with the exception.
Re:yea but--- by Anonymous Coward · 1999-09-01 23:28 · Score: 0

...and we have come full circle. THE OS DID NOT CRASH, THE APPLICATION DID!!!!
Re:yea but--- by flatrbbt · 1999-09-02 01:09 · Score: 1

divide by zero is a common error in application coding... there is no excuse for an o/s to crash because of it.

--
Ex Libris Veritas

But where one get Linux support? by Anonymous Coward · 1999-09-01 11:53 · Score: 0

Ok from this article I got the impression that they were trying to sum things up like this:

Benefit of Linux: Years of uptime.
Drawback: Lack of 24x7 support.

Huh?

Support support support support support.

Say that as many times as this article did and it starts to sound very funny. Especially when they also keep talking about how STABLE Linux is.

Wouldn't this imply that one DOES NOT NEED support support support support support? People are so used to needing support support support support.

Re:But where one get Linux support? by gwynedd · 1999-09-01 13:19 · Score: 1

What is Redhat, Suse, Caldera doing anyway? I saw a catalog once in the mail, Uline I think. They sell shrinkwrap and packaging material. Hey UPS and Federal Express have packaging materials. Is there a FedX Linux? I want to be the first in line for HallMark Linux they have great cards. Here 's a question. "How many people take their cars to the dealership?". How can it be? People who work on cars not manufacturing it? If people can not see that service does not have to come from the original vendor by now I am going to stop watching the X-files because it scares me to think that human race is being observed.

The Linux herd by Anonymous Coward · 1999-09-01 13:36 · Score: 0

Linux users are sheep too. They're a herd of social misfits and rejects. Anyone with an ounce of brain has already left the Linux cult.

If Slashdot were a nuclear power plant... by Anonymous Coward · 1999-09-01 13:39 · Score: 0

...we'd all be dead by now. Goes to show how pathetic Linux performs as a mission critical system.

Re:If Slashdot were a nuclear power plant... by Joe+Schmo · 1999-09-01 19:46 · Score: 1

Instead of giving a short pathetic statement like that, then impart upon us what system could handle dynamic web pages of such magnititude. Remember Microsoft NT touts static web page performance, but crashes and burns on dynamic web page serving.

Do you know the difference...probably not. Ohhh the gloves are off. En garde!

BTW ask Rob Malda et all how many pages, not hits, but pages this sucker deals with.

Ohh, and one more thing. That is the dumbest comparison - apples and oranges.

The Internet grows at a phenominal rate...hmm I wonder how much the load a nuclear power plant increases in comparison to the growth of the internet (in the same time span)

Just in case you reply to this, and just in case you tout Microsoft (please don't - it shows your a monkey sys admin that likes your work done for you) please remember Hotmail.

Maybe the Slashdot crew should run their system on an OS of your choice, oh wise all-knowing-one. Do you have a choice they could use, or did you just throw a comment out without thinking that you would have to come up with a better alternative.

Mr anonymous user...get a userid, log in and show yourself. >-) Ppppplease

Ahhh- that venting felt good. Thank You.
Re:If Slashdot were a nuclear power plant... by Black+Parrot · 1999-09-01 23:00 · Score: 2

Ease on over to the FAQ and you'll see that they're running their forms, filters, database, page generation, and page server all on a single PII 450. And they get enough hits to squash even a medium-sized commercial site merely by posting a link to a story there.

How many Proliants with 4 CPUs and 4 NICs would it take to bear that load under your favorite OS?

--
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade

Holy newt what a mission critical job! by Anonymous Coward · 1999-09-01 15:29 · Score: 0

It "monitors the network" in a closed internal network (i.e. it isn't getting slammed on or ping-o-death'd). Wow. Mission Critical?

It is with great humor that things like that are described as mission critical and statements about not having to use backups are taken with such exhaltation. It does a totally menial job with older software that needn't be updated. You could put an NT 3.51 machine in there and it'd do easily as well with just as much uptime or greater.

NT is ALWAYS used for mission critical systems by Anonymous Coward · 1999-09-01 19:27 · Score: 0

NT is used for mission critical apps in thousands, if not millions of companies acrosss the country. I have personally seen NT used for mission critical apps in the US Postal Service, MCI, and IBM, just to start with. Why isn't this news...?

Re:The Linux herd - up to 17% market share by Joe+Schmo · 1999-09-01 20:18 · Score: 1

Then why has the use of Linux jumped to 17% market share. Go to www.linux.com (results from well known independent firm). Jack$ss.

Good ol' Kansas school system by YourFingerYouFool · 1999-09-01 20:20 · Score: 1

Hey... are you a member of the Kansas skool bored

--
"pull my finger" - Uncle Chuckles

Re:Good ol' Kansas school system by Anonymous Coward · 1999-09-01 20:59 · Score: 0

You mean the ones that give more power to the school districts?

ugh.... by Boolean · 1999-09-01 20:34 · Score: 1

sorry the tite isn't about the article, I just saw an add with a girl eating a scorpion...
Well, maybe this will help Linux go mainstream.
More Linux companies need to do like RedHat and gain money to become more powerful and better know than they are now.
Educate the people and they WILL switch.

--

If you think you know what the hell is going on you're probably full of shit. -- Robert Anton Wilson
jdube is who

More places that /SHOULD/ be using Linux.... by dynweb · 1999-09-02 07:38 · Score: 1

On that note, here is one more place that should be using linux... Oh well, we can only hope.

97 comments