Slashdot Mirror
Java on BeOS, supported by Sun
John Kenneth Grytten writes "Be and Sun have announced that they will be working together to bring Java 2 Platform, Standard Edition and PersonalJava to BeOs." They expect to have betas ready by the end of the year, with shipping versions going out 1Q 2000.
They don't want to sign their death warrant just yet. It behooves them to foster the impression that Java's best environment is on a Sun box. If a kick ass JVM comes out for Java 2 on Linux, they are surely up shit's creek.
Hates people who have stupid little sigs
Heh heh. BeOS 1, Linux 0.
This isn't to knock the Blackdown team -- they have done a terrific job. But doing such a port really is a lot of work, maybe too much for a closed porting team. If we could open up the porting process and let those of us with different systems really bang on it, I'm sure things would be progressing much more rapidly.
Matt Welsh
Its said that a JDK with hotspot features is coming soon for linux. dont you read slashdot?? :)
---> Did you know Linux stands for Linux Is Not UniX ?
Funny, it was just yesterday I was wondering if there was a BeOS Look And Feel for swing. Anyway, it is good to see that BeOS will be supported. Now if I could only get a supported version for FreeBSD, I'd be set.
Great! Windows95/98/NT, BeOS, Linux, Solaris, HP-UX, IRIX, all have or will have Java2 support.
Now if only Mac would get something a little newer than 1.1.6. I can't believe Be is just now getting it. They were on the ball about getting Gtk+ ported....
I guess Sun just wouldn't help em. I wonder if the recent "Finding of facts" helped push this into action.
I think that the best hope for desktop computing is Be. Now that Microsoft is under the legal gun, it's excellent that Be start getting more support. I wonder if this announcement was timed on the MS findings...
I would like to see the Sun port to Linux surface... I love the Blackdown stuff, but that's still in prerelease...
Be on the desktop, Linux on the server side... Rah.
Its good to see Sun working with Be and the recently anounced true effort to support Java 2 on Linux (bejond just giving some small help to blackdown). I'm not a BeOS user but I do develop with Java some of the time, I want to see my programs available to everyone. I wish Sun would really beef up their community process. They need to setup an online CVS system instead of just releasing the source for each version... SB
java for office apps? ...sloooow.
Seems that BeOS is the new darling of pop media. Probably in Sun's best interest to develop it on Be first.
Woohoo! There's another reason I'm going to snatch BeOS as soon as I can. I'm a Java developer, and I think Java support is great for alternative OSs.
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
For server side stuff, and for embedded stuff, Java is the way of the future. I'm glad to see movement in this direction--personal Java for Be has some real potential. Java is the only credible threat to WinCE in the long run. (Much as I like the palm pilot, it's internal memory model and APIs just don't give developers enough to work with.)
However, I have to say that I don't see much good in the future for Java as a GUI platform. Be is definately a GUI platform, so it seems to me the first step is to get that stuff working, at the technolgoy level. Maybe the Be developers can return the favour and help make Java an effective GUI platform.
Realistically, the competition is shockwave--it's fast, slick, and definately well on its way to being a class one killer app.
Java just isn't competing here--it's still slow, clunky, and cumbersome. It's pretty obvious that Sun spent 10 years perfecting Java for embedded and server applications, making a damn fine product. But then they hacked a bunch of GUI stuff onto that in a few short months and called it a "web applicaton". Applets are an outright disaster, and GUI applications don't fare much better.
Which is a shame, since it's such a good idea. Shockwave is going to kill Java unless something is done to speed up the raw GUI performance.
Don't take me as a Java hater, I'm not--I love Java on the server, and even have a big free software project devoted to making life easier there (webmacro). I just don't like the Java GUI.
Well, this is a press release, not an actual software release. It could turn out that a year from now it's announced for some other OS and someone says "Other OS???!!! What about the BeOS port promised a long time ago?"
-beme
-beme
1971
I know C, C++, Ada, Java, COBOL, x86 asembly and I still like Java the best. Why? Because it's a nice OO language that saves me lots of time in the R&D department. Hotspot is really helping the speed issue a lot. But speed of execution is not the only measure of speed. You can develop an app in Java a lot quicker and if you pay attention to what your doing, it really will be WORA.
Think how functional Marabilis could be if they had kept the javaicq port going. Now they would have a nice version on Every platform. As it is, you have 10 versions that all lack features because we have to make them ourselves without all the protocol knowledge we need. This could have easily been avioded. Also, the java version would let you use icq on a computer that didn't have it installed. You could set it up so that you could go to a website and log in if you were on a friends computer or a lab computer... or whatever.
Sad sad sad...
Will the world be filled with endless "BeOS vs. Linux" arguments, instead of "Mac vs. PC"?
Well, you have to look at it this way:
Java is about 10 times slower then native machine language. As processors become faster, 10 times slower for stuff such as office applications will become a non-issue with computers. With processors already damn close to a gigahert, thats a pretty good investment for Sun to be looking into.
People call Java useless (CmdrTaco), but when it comes down to it, its the best thing since sliced bread. In a few years, the slowness of it will be completely unnoticeable next to other applications.
Now of course when I say this I'm making the assumption that the applications won't use up more processing time relative to the cpu enhancements. This has been generally true with all software over the last few years. They may require more cycles, but they're still faster on faster processors even though they're doing more work.
I am a Linux user and I'm OK, (so don't flame me)
</disclaimer>
It's wonderful to see more and more people taking BeOS seriously. Every OS need a good JVM (even Linux). Let's hope Sun is serious about this.
By the way, "BeKaffe" has been around for awhile now. They are an independent effort working on a Java AWT.
I've been itching to get my hands on BeOS for over a year now, but I'm a little apprehensive about shelling out $$$ for pay software that's hung at it's current version level for so long.
Does anyone have any information as to when the next release for BeOS might be expected? I'd just hate to have shelled out $60-$90 for a new OS to play around with just before a new major release renders it old tech.
PS: All apologies if this is seen as off topic.
Your Brain + EEG + LEGO Robots = Brainstorms
I'm not aware that they have delivered on any of them. Have they actually
-- Slashdot sucks.
Java v1.3, which is actually a solid client-side programming possibility. v1.2 is nice for servers and networking, but Be is really looking for client applications. --JRZ
I had been planning on installing BeOS in the near future, and had been lamenting the lack of Java.
:) )
They're suggesting a fast timeframe, though. Beta verion in less than 2 months? Production version by 1Q2000? I also wonder which version they'll be porting 1.2, or 1.3 (hopefully 1.3 since it has the client-optimized version of Hotspot). Mind you, I guess much of the Swing stuff is already written in Java, which should make it pretty easy to port (at least, that's what the Java advertising always says
I wish them the best of luck, but won't be shocked if those delivery dates slip at bit.
Dana
I would guess that it's probably easier to get Java running well on BeOS than any other environment, because Java is a thread-based language. From what I understand, Be threads are a snap.
D
----
This is great news. We've been memeber of the BeOS developers program for a couple of years, but I haven't been able to do any 'real' development on it because our code has to be able to run on other machines.
BeOS itself is so slick..once you've used it, it is such a drag (literallly) to go back to NT, or even Linux. There is _no_ refresh lag, resources are used up smoothly and predicatbly, and the whole thing boots instantaneously (at least when compared to NT!) Also, with real file jouranling, you can even shut the machine off (not reccommended though!) and not worry that you've just corrupted your entire file system; when you shut down correctly, there is hardly any wait at all.
BeOS also has a commendably simple, clean and elegant API implementation. Actually, its the cleanest, most rational C++ implementation I've seen. (Hmmm, maybe thats not saying much. I guess I should say its a great implementation regardless of language.) Interestingly, they have explicitly avoided all the C++ 'enhancements' like STL, exceptions model, etc.., etc.. and are really writing to the bone; they're really using C++ like C with simple object extensions which is the only way I'd ever use it.
I love Java, but I'm not a completly fanatical idiot about it. Right now, you simply couldn't implement the low-level parts of a decent OS in Java. If this is a good Java implementation, with the BeOS finegrained threading, clean graphics mdel, etc.., this has the potential to be the best Java implementation of them all. Truly the best of both worlds.
Still trying hard to keep my expecations down so if its a half-assed implementaiton I won't Be Bummed..
it looks like where Java will succeeded is in the Middle tier. so I'm unsure on how useful it will be for poor BeOS. a lot of barley functionally games do not make a OS succeeded. Either Java needs to start providing a good way to make good windowed apps or people actually need to write stuff for BeOS. I have heard about something called something like "JFC", it's supposed to be a really good API for creating GUI's. I still am skeptical if it will allow Java to make usable GUI apps in a "pure" "portable" java however.
It would help a lot of BeOS didn't try to get money for there OS. I'd love to check it out, but I'm not about to spend $80. also why the heck did they give away the PowerPC one and not the Intel one? maybe the Intel support still sucks to hard and they're afraid it won't work on 90% of the boxes out there.
as far as I know it won't play well with my TNT2. darn..
a while back a purchased O'Riellys book on BeOS development, not a great book. but it did say "BeOS on CD-ROM". when I got home I found out it was for the friggin PowerPC. (ARGGH!!). I mailed them a little letter and ended up getting the "BeOS Advanced Developer Topics". so if BeOS would just let me download there OS I would write some Killer apps for them.
-Jon
this is my sig.
Don't forget that Sun think that they're in a difficult position because of the Linux vs Solaris issue, so inevitably there will be internal pressure from some of their divisions *not* to help out the Linux scene too much. In contrast, adding value to little ol' Be holds no danger for them.
In reality of course, assuming that they really make no money from Solaris as the rumours suggest, their best bet is probably to GPL the entirety of Solaris and to support all free operating systems equally on their nice hardware. Unfortunately, internal politics may not allow that --- the Solaris empires within Sun are far too deeply entrenched in the internal political mechanisms of the company. A pity.
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
Sorry for the double post.
- sigs are for wimps.
"major selling points for Be is the speed."
So it makes an excellent platform for running Java.
"It's slow, ugly, and a real hog of cpu and memory."
On the other hand, you can develop software really fast with it, its language is much more elegant than C/C++ and performance is good enough on the server side.
"Can't we move on? There are _hundreds_ of better alternatives."
Name them, I hope perl isn't on your list.
Jilles
Linux is much more of a moving target than BeOS. It's probably considerably easier to get this working on BeOS than on Linux.
Remember, BeOS *does* have a POSIX layer which can be used -- and it changes less often than libc/glibc.
This really depends on the platform you're using Java on, and what you do with the app before you run it. TYA gives a pretty respectable speed boost. GCJ has just now worked for me (I had to install the GCC 2.95.2 RPMs from Mandrake onto my RH6 box):
./Hello
garrett@isomorph:~$ time java Hello
Hello World
1.52user 0.27system 0:01.79elapsed 100%CPU (0avgtext+0avgdata 0maxresident)k
0inputs+0outputs (7492major+4733minor)pagefaults 0swaps
garrett@isomorph:~$ gcj -o Hello --main=Hello Hello.java
garrett@isomorph:~$ time
Hello World
0.14user 0.03system 0:00.17elapsed 100%CPU (0avgtext+0avgdata 0maxresident)k
0inputs+0outputs (1448major+193minor)pagefaults 0swaps
While this is as far as it gets from industrial-strength benchmarking, all I can say is "oof".
Nothing worth doing is worth doing today.
Actually, on my system:
Boots in 14 seconds
Installed in 10 minutes (though a 3 minute full install was recorded somewhere).
Oh, and java isn't slow, the implementation is. Calling java slow is much like calling 3d first person shooters slow, because of some crap game.
It's fast enough, professional (semi) looking, and doesn't tax my cpu nor ram.
I recently wrote an app that needed non-blocking I/O. I had to implement it with Threads. There was no other option. If MacOS doesn't have threads, I don't see them porting any time soon.
On the other hand, they can surely get it to work with MacOS X. Anyone know why mach threads are an issue?
Joseph
Java is a high-level programming language. C is a low-level programming language. Java provides bunches of features that C does not. That means that if you are competent in both Java and C, you will be able to write larger and less buggy applications in Java than in C.
It's not that people don't program in low-level languages because they're too dumb to figure them out. It's that people don't program in high-level languages because they're too dumb to figure out their utility. =)
-jacob
Upgrading works like this:
To upgrade from a dot-oh release (4.0) to a point release (4.x) = $0
To upgrade from a point release (4.x) to a point release (4.y) = $0
To upgrade from a dot-oh release (4.0) or a point release (4.x) to the next doh-oh release (5.0) = $25
Except that getting Java to work properly on anything except green threads (which is a userland thread-emulation package), win32 threads or Solaris threads is a real bitch.
It took the blackdown people ages to get it right (in their latest 1.1.x release it's pretty good and supposedly they've gotten it to work with 1.2 too after a _lot_ of work). Just look at the amount of non-solaris/win32 ports of java2 that aren't in alpha/beta. There's not too many of them, is there.
I wouldn't expect it to be any easier for the Be people. No matter how elegant your threads are (some people argue linuxthreads are just that), that won't help you at all if your threads dont work the same way as they do in Solaris.
Ages ago, Be had a pre-release version of a JDK running on their operating system using native threads. Apparently, Java ran *extremely* well using the BeOS native threading.
Assuming they aren't bound by NDAs, and that BeOS still possessed the code, documentation, know-how, or all three, there isn't any reason they simply couldn't adapt the techniques they used from the old JDK to the new one (with appropriate modifications, yes).
10x slower ? Maybe 1.2/1.3 is, but try out the IBM 1.1.8 VM on Linux and Win32, it REALLY flies.
:-)
Two years ago I performed some basic benchmarks on the Symantec implementation (and JIT). For tight loops performing repetitive math ops it was approaching C speed. If C == 1 JIT'd Java = 1.7 .
This was a kindof artificial test. My experience is that the JDK in general with a good JIT is about 2.5 times slower, but can approach C/C++ under some circumstances. I find that the IBM implementation often seems to duck into 1.5 sort of territory.
On a nose by nose comparison with C++, Java will often win - purely because you can often implement some types of problem more cleanly in Java.
Where it does fall down is in the AWT libraries (Swing in particular I'm afraid) where some real howlers occur. This of course give Java the impression of being a real dog - WYSIWIG right ?)
If you can find a decent third party lightweight component implementation you'll find that Java is in a position to write Office applications.
BTW, its a great shame IBM don't port to BeOS and Mac
No.
There already are open formats. Its not the format that is the issue, its the utility that makes the format. You can potentially make a document that looks as nice as a word document, except its in HTML. The hard part is the utility for making it look pretty.
A couple of months ago, hanging out on comp.sys.beos, I read a statement that went something like "Be has been remarkably good at avoiding several landmines that would destroy them" -- and on the list of landmines was Java. I've been trying to figure out why this is so.
Ideas?
Tweet, tweet.
http://www.javasoft.com/pr/1998/11/pr981102-01.htm l
where sun promised to port JDK 1.2 to Linux, over a year ago! Sun has not yet provided a reference implementation for Linux. All we have is the blackdown JDK 1.2 prerelease which is buggy and *so* slow. Based on the above announcement, I wouldn't expect a BeOS JDK from Sun anytime soon, if ever. All I can say is don't get your hopes up when you read about Sun porting JDK to another OS. Sun has a reputation for making vapor announcements, with the above link as evidence.
Stomp on Sun? I hardly think so. Please keep the rabid advocacy to a minimum; this article wasn't about Linux, it was about the BeOS.
I kind of find it strange that no one mentions financial news from the Be world...
Last week, their stock dropped from the 8-range to the low-6 range. Just today, it rebounded completely. Does anyone know why?
Check out Project Upper/Mute, an all-around awesome compiler fra
The JDK and JRE 1.1.8 for Linux are officially released, from my understanding. The current version of the HotJava browser doesn't work on them though - it dies right out of the box... so I don't know how stable IBM's Java port is. (HotJava is supposed to work on Java 1.1.x anyway..)
Yes, I know HotJava's not that wonderful a browser, just thought it'd be a good test to see how well IBM's JDK and JRE work.
Sam: "That was needlessly cryptic."
Max: "I'd be peeing my pants if I wore any!"
As you may or may not know, Microsoft's stock dropped considerably today. (They finished down 1 and 5/8 points--click here for more info). This, and the news of Java on BeOS, sent Be Inc.'s stock up more than 80%. Click here for some more info on that. :)
Your Friendly Neighboorhood Netscouring Dood,
Warren
>>I can't choose! ... heh heh of the 3 Linux has more apps available more active development on new technologies like PPPoE (followed very closely by FreeBSD).
The "firewall" is Linux because my provider has moved from DHCP to PPPoE
I'm assuming you mean Sympatico ADSL. Actually, they never bothered to turn off DHCP - I still run my BeOS and Linux boxes straight DHCP - I intend to use the SuSE box as a firewall gateway when they turn it off, but so far that need hasn't arrived.
High level languages are great for many things. I program in Java and Perl almost exclusively. But I would never write a real datatbase program, or a arcade style gaem, in either of those languages. High level languages in general, and interpreted langagues in particular are just not cut out for that sort of thing. Never mind when we start talking about writing OS's.
It is more than just the speed issue (although that is a big one!). There are things like compactness of code, etc.. In a low level language you have to work a lot harder to get anything done, but (if you are good, and have the right ideas), the code you come up with is far better than what you could produce in anythign else. Really good compilers/interpreters can help to narrow the difference, but..
Lesson to be learned here: Just like every other issue that splits the computer world, there are always tradeoffs. You just have to pick the tool that best fits the job!
I guess there's a port of the JDK 1.1.8 for FreeBSD available.... That's FreeBSD 100 / Linux... umm... -1?
firstly, you have to pay isp fees no matter what os you have...
second, even if you add up all the stuff you mentioned, there's no $400 charge just for a basic license like there is with NT so i bet you come out ahead.
get your dirty sig off me, you filthy APE!
Care to back up that claim with some data? Servlets can be just as fast as mod_perl or mod_php. See this benchmark.
Besides, Java isn't really interpreted any more. Thinks of the Java bytecodes as a (mostly) platform-independent distribution language.
Scott Ferguson
Scott Ferguson
Caucho Technology
I can say with certainty that Java does not do that "run anywhere" thing on
What a loa dof balony. WHy don't you use Sun's VM then? Microsoft's VM is fast and works for me. You seem to be taking in this "oooh MS java is impure" to mean that MS Java won't work with Sun Java. MS just added extensions, if you developed in another plantform, it'll work. The thing that won't work is RMI, you have to download the RMI libraries seperately from Microsoft's FTP site (RMI for Windows CE is there too).
It's fast enough, professional (semi) looking, and doesn't tax my cpu nor ram.
unless you use swing or awt >:P. My CPU just about chokes when using java graphics libraries.
First, if you haven't played with the BeOS, free up a partition and install that bad boy. It'll only take a few minutes and you'll impresssed.
On to my point...
Having a supported JDK on Be is a great thing for developers, but for it to be really useful, there needs to be a good IDE available.
Text editors and makefiles are cool, but big projects want IDEs. I wonder if Metrowerks will step up?
Java provides bunches of features that C does not. That means that if you are competent in both Java and C, you will be able to write larger and less buggy applications in Java than in C.
Sorry, gotta respectfully disagree
However, it is a VERY nice and easy language. Part of the speed problem with Java is not just the VM, but the way the language works (dynamic linking, heaps, gc, OO) etc.
I'll be happy the day I get my native compiler for Java
I've been following BeOS for a while. I went to their HQ and saw their demo. I got a 3.X cd and installed it. I've tinkered with it, and followed the development... so...
aside from BeOS being cool for video editing and "Neat" and good for non-geeks to use, who's going to buy it? Or... how's Be going to make any money?
Before they were targeting themselves as a niche product, but linux/unix apps are now available that do many of the things they were targeting as a niche market.
Be's refusal to go opensource with their OS source has made it inaccesible to many developers like myself who might have put significant effort into developing and porting to BeOS.
I just don't see how Be plans to make money... or why anybody should use it as opposed to unix or even windows or MacOS as a platform besides to be different.
"Linux is only free if your time is worth nothing."
Seems quite insightful to me.
I would think this goes without saying. BeOS is proprietary. Therefore it is NO BETTER THAN WINDOWS. The technical crapulence of windows is negligeable when compared to the true atrocity: we are forced to use a product that we don't own, just to use our computers! We must not accept anything that is not under a free license, preferably GPL. If we accept BeOS, or even Sun, we could very well end up with different masters, though we remain slaves.
Hamsters are at least as feathery as penguins. HamLix
http://www.insight.com has it for $38.99. Beyond.com and others have it for similar prices.
The drop was most likely due to a suit against Microworkz, a big BeOS web appliance maker, and the jump was thanks to the MS trial statement probably. Thanks for playing.
From a certain mindset, or perhaps political standpoint, you are correct.
On the other hand, there are those who approach open source/free software/etc. from a more pragmatic standpoint. They want *good* software: software that isn't bug-riddled, poorly designed, painfully slow, and counterintuitive. For those, they see open source as a way to avoid those pitfalls.
BeOS is a closed-source example of how to do things *right.* ESR, the champion of the pragmatic, and not ethical/moral, open source arena, praised BeOS for it's technical points. Unfortunately, ESR also slammed it as being proprietary (contrary to his statements about wanting to live in a world where software doesn't suck).
Frankly, I used BeOS, and now I'm learning Linux, and so far I've yet to find anything I want to do in Linux that I can't do in BeOS easier and quicker. As a developer, I've yet to find any API in Linux that approaches the cleanliness and coherency of the BeOS API (KDE, compared to the BeOS API, is a disaster). The only sticking point, as you say, is the proprietary nature of BeOS. Do I want them to go open source? No. Be, Inc. simply wouldn't survive. On the other hand, the closed source nature means they are limiting themselves somewhat. It's a very tough call - do I give in to the siren call of freedom and go to Linux, or do I simply use what actually suits me better and stick with BeOS?
why is this guys post moderated at flamebait?
The original poster was FUDding Be, and apparently, your response is to post more FUD (about linux).
For the zillionth time, NO, LINUX IS NOT JUST ABOUT FREE BEER. People can and do spend money on linux.
Personally, I think this is mildly good news, but I still feel that Java doesn't live up to it's portability promise. Compare it to python, Tcl and perl. It's not even in the same league. In fact most apps written in C are more portable than java apps, because there are still several platforms which barely run Java or don't run it very well.
What are you talking about? With Linux, you are free to do whatever you want with the software, so long as you don't try to place a restrictive copyright on someone elses work.
Reglardless of what the law says, I am free to fiddle with my cars engine, build my own, or whatever. I don't know what you are smoking, but software most certainly is a way of life for certain people.
Hamsters are at least as feathery as penguins. HamLix
Who's the fool that moderated this one? The guy was probably expressing an honest opinion. I would tend to agree with him, mostly because I know C a _lot_ better than I know Java. (I'd been doing C for a fun-filled two years when the CS dept. switched to using Java. I'm doing a weird program, so I had been in the C courses in first year, but got the Java second year courses. Fortunately, everything before 3rd year here is easy, so learning Java was no prob. (except for the project with the GUI... GUIs suck... (for some things) :)) When I learned Java, I was not too impressed. It has some nice features, but it sucks for tty I/O (as one example!). Where is the functionality of scanf(). Oh my mistake, "method"ality in OO :)
OTOH, Java would be a great language for writing interactive programs, but so is C++. I like C when I want to write a program that takes some args on the command line, does its thing, and exits. This is by nature procedural. OO almost gets in the way for this, especially if the program is fairly simple.
Anyway, moderators, just because the guy slighted java doesn't mean he is flaimbait. Java is _not_ unanimously a Good Thing for all tasks, or all programmers. I am not "against" Java. It has its uses, but it is not for everything.
#define X(x,y) x##y
#define X(x,y) x##y
Peter Cordes ; e-mail: X(peter@cordes ,
Okay, this is going to sound both strange and very nit-picky, but:
Garbage-collection as slower than hand-allocation is a myth.
If you're familiar with GC algorithms, think about a standard copy-collection scheme: it takes time proportional to the amount of used memory to run, so freeing memory is O("reachable memory"). Now think about deallocation by hand: you free everything you ever allocate, one at a time. That's O("all memory used"). In typical programs memory is allocated all the time but doesn't need to stick around for long, so the memory reachable at any time is quite a bit smaller than all memory.
Don't fear garbage collection. It is your friend. It wants to help you. If it doesn't seem gritty enough, code while watching detective movies or something. =)
-jacob
Have you used the BeOS, it's just plain fun to use and there are some good apps out there for it. GoBE Productive is the easiest to use office suite I've ever seen, even if it does lack some of the high level functionality of Corel or M$ Office. Someone with next to no experience can do basic desktop publishing almost immediately. It's a great OS for technophobes, better than the MacOS. It's good to see it being mentioned in the press these days, maybe more people will go out and try it, you should, and give it to a computer fearing friend for Xmas or something. BTW I'm also a Linux user.
more hardware and software. "
I cna't agree with this. You list the imprortant features of a desktop OS being:
I can't see the cost argument. Some linux distributons cost more tan BeOS, and people willingy buy Windows 9x which is two and a half times as expensive as Be, or even NT, which is ten times as much. I also believe hardware support has almost stoppoed being a barrier for Be. I think the latest release really has brought it up. The only place where it really still does need improvement is in 3d support. But it's quite useable atm. Your software support criticism is valid. Hopefully the next version of Gobe will tidy up the couple of significant shortfalls it currently has (it's preview page certainly indicates this and more) so that productivity is up to scratch. The other thing both Be and linux need, and which has been talked up on this forum heaps recentl is browser support. But Be Mozilla is only a tiny bit behind the rest.
I strongly agree with what Luke said: Be outstrips linux as a desktop OS even right now. I can install it with a bit of dial up networking support on a computer illiterate friend's PC and just let them go. They are satisfied with the interface, and changing basic settings. With linux the learning curve, etc for a desktop OS is far far higher. As Luke said, Be and linux have the potential to be a rock solid combination for client/server combinations, and I'd really like to see greater integration through networking, applications, etc between the two of them.
Believe with me, my saplings.
The only thing I can't do is slap my own copyright on it. I do for all intents and purposes own it, as copyright is not a 'right' that you can morally apply to even your own property. It is unfortunate that we have the capability to distribute software in other than the most easily modifyable form. But really the GPL just tries to nullify copyright.
Hamsters are at least as feathery as penguins. HamLix
Um, I don't get it. (yeah stupid :)).
Eventually wouldn't the GC release all memory used? What happens to an object that's now unreachable?
Correct me if I am wrong but Swing supports something called pluggable look and feel (I believe I spelled pluggable right). If it does, this means that a BeOS L&F will most likely be made for BeOS. Thus, Swing will look quite a bit like BeOS's UI, unless you don't know how to change the look and feel.
As for the "idiotic 'Pure Java' crap," I'll have to disagree. If Sun "[retracts] on Pure Java, allowing better integration into BeOS, Windows, Linux, etc.," why write in Java at all? You might as well write in C/C++ or some other language (higher level than those two if you like). However, by encouraging Pure Java, Sun encourages applications that will work on all standards compliant virtual machines. That means that I won't have to take my... integrated Windows code and modify it heavily so that it will run on BeOS. If I write my program in Windows, it will work on BeOS, Linux, Solaris, or whatever platform that I choose to run it on, provided there is a VM available.
Finally, going back to the Swing issue, I'd say you are wrong on the speed argument as well. I have the JDK 1.3beta installed, and am running jEdit (my favorite text editor). It uses Swing, and I have absolutely no problems with the way it works, speed or otherwise. It could be that whatever platform you are using has a poor implementation. Hotspot makes a lot of difference (at least for me). If they are going to include Hotspot in the package (which would make sense since Sun is making the port), then I would say the GUI will be fine.
Before you complain about Sun shoving "crap" towards you, maybe you should think about why they are doing so. There are actual reasons for writing in pure Java, and it isn't as slow as many people claim.
I take no responsibility for grammar, spelling and usage in this post, as it is late, and I don't really care. I thank you for the time you spent reading this.
Just my luck that when I finally find time/warrant to post something, the moderators are probably done doing their job. Oh well, I can live on no karma, as long as it isn't negative.
I've come for the woman, and your head.
Can I see the GPL for the hardware you are using? Or, are you by any chance, using propriatery hardware? "Free" is nice, but it isn't the end-all be-all.
-- Abigail
The algorithm I was talking about (called "stop-and-copy") works like this: you have two chunks of memory- "old" and "new." You always allocate memory from old. When you need to GC, you start at what's currently in scope (which is in old) and copy it to new. Then you go to everything that you can reach from the objects in scope and recursively copy into new until you've copied everything over. Now you turn "new" into "old" and "old" into "new" and voila, your garbage is collected.
All of the memory that you allocated but that is unreachable doesn't get copied, so that memory is reclaimed. However, you're doing work based on the amount of memory that's still active- if you have 10k of active memory, the GC will copy 10k into new, regardless of whether there's no unreachable data or a million megabytes of unreachable data.
There are other GC schemes, but you'll find that all but the most brain-dead are actually not that bad in terms of their efficiency. The idea of garbage-collection as a bad thing seems to be the result of bad PR and the absence of any popular languages that are fast and that do garbage collection well- as you pointed out, Java does lots of things that make it slower than C++. However, since the most obvious difference between it and C++ is that it is garbage-collected and C++ is not, the conclusion most people come to is that garbage collection must be what makes Java slow. It isn't true, but that's what people see. Oh well...
-jacob
I don't know what definition of proprietary you are using, but according to the language of the FSF, software placed under the GPL is Free Software, which is the opposite of proprietary software. What definition of propietary with respect to software could you possibly mean without talking about copyrights?
Hamsters are at least as feathery as penguins. HamLix
I actually felt that the productivity improvement of Java over C++ was minimal compared to Python over Java. But you're right, developing an app quickly and easily is really cool, and Java can be helpful.
actually, I have not downloaded or paid for linux in three years. One friend orders the CD for $5, then we all share.
try doing that (legally) with any other OS besides *BSD
My dad is a complete computer-phobe, and has been using BeOS for more than a year now, full-time. He says, "it works like I expect it to," but when I come over and show him some of the funkier things he can do, he always gets excited and digs in deeper. The bash shell still intimidates him, but that's the nice thing -- it's there for those who want or need it, but users can use the system full-time without ever opening a Terminal. He never calls me for support, either. :)
And so far the commercial apps for BeOS are just not there for people to use it. It has nothing to do with Linux or Windows. Just that there are more apps available for them than BeOS, so they are going to used more on a daily basis...
And it has nothing to do with Open-Source, if that was true then why is Windows a dominate OS in the market. Because it has apps that users can use on a daily basis to get there business done...
Don't get me wrong I would love to see BeOS be used more, but let's face it they lost when Apple dumped them...
There are many _professional_ studio devices that are supported by BeOS, but not by Linux/Windows.
Sorry, what? I'm as big a BeOS fan as you'll ever see, but I don't think there is a single piece of hardware anywhere that is supported by BeOS but Linux/Windows. BeOS simply doesn't have enough marketshare to justify Be-specific hardware.
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
It seems they're making progress - see the status page, updated on Oct 30.
But you're right, I'd also like to know how Sun's support of a Linux JDK might look a year after they announced it...
Maybe. Or maybe it's a good test to see whether or not Sun are relying on any implementation-specific bits of their JVM... Of course, without seeing the problems and analysing them properly, it's impossible to say one way or the other.
I would agree with the previous poster - Java support for Linux may well be more IBM-based than Sun-based in the future. In fact, I can see that spreading beyond just Linux... IME, IBM are the most Java-savvy company around. (Oh, and jikes is fantastic :)
Jon
I am NOT a programmer, I don't even know basic. I was using RHL 5.2 > Openlinux 2.1 > Openlinux 2.2 and now BeOS. My system: Diamond Micronics MoBo C200 AMD K6-2 300Mhz 128MB RAM IDE ATAPI ZIP 100 Creative Labs Riva TNT 16MB PCI video card Creative Labs PCI128 Soundblaster Generic 56K Modem (jumpered) Installation: Its easier to install than DOS. Stability: Hangs every now and then when on the 'net, kinda like the first version of W95, well, maybe not that much;-) The PS command from the shell (BASh) is the only default way to manage threads? or to kill a hung app (there is a funky key combo too...but its never worked for me. So I downloaded a program called SLAYER wich is just like the GUI task manager in KDE. Applications Surprisingly, it ain't that bad, I am am very content. Although a free Office Suite wouldn't hurt. Hardware Support is very limited, if it is new and popular ya' got good chance it'll work. EXCEPT PRINTERS - - BIG WEAK POINT only a small handful of printers are supported Speed oh my god, I didn't know my PC could do that? Overall I am damn near ready to delete Linux BTW I got my copy at Worst er, Best Buy with a VERY WOULDN'T BE WITHOUT IT BOOK (BEOS BIBLE) for all of 49.99. Besy fifty bucks I ever spent - -I am HIGHLY impressed. GO FOR IT!
:-)
I installed BeOS awhile ago on a spare hard drive I had. It was, to say the least, extremely impressive. Speedy, (mostly) stable, and very nice to look at. I used it as my primary OS for 2 weeks, then went back to my old combination of NT and Linux. Don't be so hasty and delete Linux off your hard drive yet - although Be shows a lot of potential, as other people have pointed out it has very few applications, and even fewer useful ones. It's fun to play with, but for serious work, it's not terribly useful. Another very annoying thing was that I kept finding apps that I wanted, but didn't have the source available and were only compiled for R4, which apparently isn't binary-compatible with R4.5!
Once BeOS gets better (and more) applications, I'll give it another try. For now, though, it's pretty useless... and its web browser kinda blows chunks
"Software is like sex- the best is for free"
-Linus Torvalds
Is there some page on the be.com site where I could order a demo CD? Is the demo downloadable somewhere? I'd like to try it with my hardware...
Actually, I used BeOS as my only OS for at least six months (at least at home). I found that anything I wanted to do, there was an application available for it. Software development, word processing, spreadsheeting, web surfing (both with and without JavaScript), web serving, Usenet reading... in other words, the sorts of things the average Joe does (well, perhaps not software development).
With regards to binary compatability, things compiled for 3.x Intel BeOS won't work on 4.0 or greater. Why? Be found that using the ELF executable format gave them great benefits over the PE executable format, so they decided to switch. Unfortunately, this rendered everything else unusable. After considering the issue, Be decided against including a compatability layer in the operating system to run the old executables. Given that one of BeOS' design goals is to avoid as much cruft and crap as possible, that compatability layer would have been just so much extra garbage to sandbag the operating system and cause it to run slower and be less stable.
As far as NetPositive goes, I'd have to disagree. That it doesn't have Java or Javascript is a blessing. It means I don't have to put up with the slowest thing on the web, and the buggiest thing on the web, respectively. It isn't 100% standards compliant, but I've yet to run across more than a handful of sites where Net+ displayed them incorrectly.
that was the last thing i was waiting on for beOs. now it's going on my machine in the next couple weeks. finally. java 2 is getting there enough to make development fairly straightforward and beOs is built to handle its needs.
abrams's advice: when eating an elephant, take one bite at a time.
Slightly off the Java for Be topic, but this seems to be where the Be discussion is going:
/. article, actually, to have some _objective_ comparison of the two OS's. Does anyone out there have the resources...and the objectivity?
I don't have any experience working with either BeOS or Corel Linux (Caldera user, myself), but it seems to me that the two are targeting the same market. Some have said Corel's release is a dumbed-down version of Linux, and Be is "a great OS for technophobes", etc. How do the two compare? It would be a great
I've read some great reviews of the BeOS and particularly its user interface. I would be curious to see how it compares to other (maintstream and non-mainstream) OS's.
Female Prison Rape in NY
I don't know about you, but I came to my own conclusions regarding copyright long before I even had my first computer. Later, when I discovered RMS, I was amazed to find someone whose ideas correspond directly to my own.
This is irrelevant to the discussion, however. We are not arguing about morals, you are just playing with semantics. Proprietary is when something is being treated like property. Standard pay-licenses are most certainly proprietary, even if you pay for them, you only have extremely limited rights to use them, the authors maintain full ownership over the software, and in turn, the user.
Public domain software, on the other hand, is still proprietary, in that it is being treated like property. The owner merely gives it up to the public. This way, anybody can come along and claim it, make a change, slap a copyright on, and it is just as bad as an unfavorable license on the other hand. A GPL-like license is the only kind that is truly free and non-proprietary. Licensing software under the GPL is akin to releasing a slave under the condition that he may never be a slave again. If the software is under a BSD license or is public domain, it is only non-proprietary until someone else claims it. GPL uses the copyright powers granted by the government to ensure that a particular piece of software will never fall under a tyranical ownership, by keeping the ownership with the creator, BUT WITH THE CONTRACT THAT THIS OWNERSHIP WILL NEVER BE EXERTED SAVE TO PROTECT THE SOFTWARE FROM FUTURE OWNERSHIP.
The GPL is a very complex issue, and there surely are a great many people who don't understand it, yet are proponents anyway. Your comments, however, deeply offend those of us who truly understand and believe in the ideals of freedom.
Hamsters are at least as feathery as penguins. HamLix
Question? Why not extend C++ with a bunch of fast lowlevel graphics and GUI libraries (kinda like STL) and have the OS makers maintian the back end code. Like I can cout on everything from an NT machine to a Vax, to Be (run the app from terminal)and it works. Of course the backend code is not the same, but that doesn't matter. Speed would not suffer. It would be just like graphics drivers, they all have a standard interface, but they keep getting faster because companies want theirs to stand out. Then make super optimized compilers for each platform (VC++ is damn close to as good as it gets on x86. I think Intel's is the fastest though but only by a it.) So yea would have to recompile the app for each platform, but how long does that take?
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Hence why there is Linux
...
I use Be, I like Be.
You use LINUX, you like linux (at a guess)
the same can be said for a win user.
and a *BSD user
and a Solaris user
Some people are HAPPY to give monny for somethink they like.
I am not a 'slave' to Be inc, Be Inc are SLAVES to ME, if I stop buying THEY die.
NOW LETS STOP ALL THIS 'MY OS IS BETTER THAN YR OS' SHIT!!!
I'm (and I think many others) are just fucked off with it.
(my apolgys for swaring, i'm just a little irratted).
Free your self, use the OS YOU like.
Wow, I should not post when knackered.