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Bringing CAD to Linux
Christopher Cashell writes "I've often heard it said that linux has the potential to be an ideal CAD platform, and the only thing holding it back is the lack of commercial quality CAD software (a la AutoCAD). Enter QCad, an easy to use 2D CAD project that began as a splitoff from CAM Expert. It was initially released with a 'free for non-commercial use' license, but this has recently been changed to the GPL. It's an excellent program, and earned 5 out of 5 Penguins on Tucow's Linuxberg review." CAD could/should be a "killer app" for Linux on the engineering desktop. I had a conversation a few months ago with an editor at Machine Design magazine about Linux - and how a good CAD app might set off a wholesale migration to Linux by design engineers.
about his new CNC machine - and abuilding a simple one years ago.
Chuck
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
I'd say Linux is still missing a commercial quality CAD program. "2D" does not a high quality CAD program make.
we need a professional quality 3D CAD solution. 2D is fine for beginners and whatnot, but anyone that's even semi-advanced should be drawing 3D. anyone know of a 3D CAD solution for linux?
--
you must amputate to email me
i read all replies to my comments
On a related note, MSC.Software (www.mscsoftware.com) recently announced that it will be porting its premier CAE software, NASTRAN, over to Linux (http://www.mscsoftware.com/press/sep0799.html). For those who aren't aware, NASTRAN is a structural analysis software originally developed for use by NASA, and MSC.Software is the largest distributor of it. NASTRAN is widely used in the aerospace and automotive industries. This should prove to be popular with the many small consulting companies using NASTRAN who have had bad experiences with NT.
Microstation is a widely used CAD package. I believe a linux version has existed at least 2 years maybe longer.
Go to www.sdrc.com and tell them you want I-DEAS on Linux.
They are looking at it so show them there is support for it.
No!!!
Today, we're all using 'Pro Engineering' and it's fantastic. There are many many engineers, myself included, that would use ProE 5 days a week, and would love to see it runing on a Linux distro.
With the cost savings of bypassing micros~1, we could spend more money on the hardware.
I couldn't agree more. Just having a CAD program doesn't mean its any good, regardless of what TUCOWS says. And even if it is any good - is it good enough for professional use? My first reaction is to say no. I have never used the software, but I would like, for a moment to compare a typical free 3D modeller to a typical commercial one. There is no comparison, really. Blender not withstanding, most free modellers are truly horrendous. Products such as 3D Studio, Softimage, Maya, etc. are _really_ expensive for a good reason: they're difficult to make. It will take a very well organized free software movement indeed to break into these specialize markets.
See you, space cowboy...
The academic version is available for Linux, although it is unsupported.
h tm
Check out the following:
http://www.bentley.com/academic/products/linux.
Paul
Geez, it looks like the second post to me. Nice try, Chester!
I have a friend who is interested in analysing some ideas for a vehicle suspension system. Anybody know of anything that would allow we to draw the mechanical system and have it "run" in a simulated environment? ( A bit like the old Xspringies but something that I can actually put real numbers in)
One of the better looking linux software out there :) Funny how linux is copying the windows gui :P ..right down to the icons and toolbars.
Looks very windowish
AutoCAD is an incredibly complex program when one considers all of the industry-specific modules available for it... I use the Land Development Desktop and Civil Survey extensions. Autodesk dropped Unix support and went all-Windows-all-the-time, but if their customers demand Unix, I'm convinced they will respond. If Windows 2000 is DOA, they might just have to do that as we migrate to 64-bit machines.
I saw this on some mailing list. You know what to do ;)
- --
-----------------------------------------------
To: "Zot O'Connor"
Subject: RE: Microstation/J for Linux?
From: Tim Brown - Bentley
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 08:23:06 -0400
Zot, we do have a Linux version of MicroStation that is included in our
Academic Kits. It is not available commercially due to the limited requests
we have had for that OS. We support Wintel(95/NT/DOS), Dec AlphaNT, SGI,
SUN, IBM(AIX), HP(HPUX), POWERMAC, OS/2Warp & Intergraph Clippers. Feel
free to call me with any other questions.
Regards,
Tim
Tim Brown
Bentley Systems, Inc.
690 Pennsylvania Drive
Exton, PA 19341
610-458-2743
Tim.Brown@Bentley.com
The uses for professional level CAD extend to all forms of engineering, and into all kinds of related fields. I use AutoCAD nearly full time for an Architecture firm (w/Linux servers). This kind of demand is primarily what makes Autodesk, maker of AutoCAD, the fourth largest software maker in the world (last time I checked), and combined with AutoCAD's $3k price tag, make it the most pirated piece of software (though you'd think Windows would actually be higher...) .dwg file format compatability would be needed, but that's probabaly the most un-open file format there is.
While I'm excited at the prospect of a GPL CAD program, and I'll definitely be checking it out, I have doubts as to how well it would fit into a production environment. The lack of 3d capability limits its use as a design tool, as well. And with an entrenched market leader like AutoCAD, every company that uses it has an enormous investment in existing data; they can't just toss it. So
What I'm really interested in is the existing professional UNIX CAD programs, particularly MicroStation and Arris (for which the purchaser even gets the source code), and their plans re. Linux. Many people are unhappy with the lack of stability using AutoCAD (which is sometimes the fault of AutoCAD and sometimes Windows), and that combined with Autodesk's spotty user response rate leaves this market vulnerable.
Anyway, kudos to QCAD for putting that first foot forward.
Check out this issue of Graphics Muse for a nice piece on the academic version:
http://www.linux.org.za/lg/issue19/gm.html
The biggest barier to Linux CAD solutions being deployed in existing shops is not the lack of acceptable CAD programs (there are a few) but rather the lack of compatibility. File compatibility is achieved through native DXF and DWG tralation, but must AutoCAD shops have thousands of custom AutoLISP programs to automate various tasks. I've never seen a Linux CAD prog. that even had a scripting feature much less any degree of compatibility to AutoLISP. My current shop certainly wouldn't switch. Sure it costs us $2,000+ per seat of AutoCAD, but our LISP routines make customizing, editing, marking-up, plotting, etc. a snap and save us hundreds of man hours -PER PERSON- a year. Until a linux CAD prog can do that, it won't be replacing AutoCAD.
Note: Microstation -is- available for Linux, but only as the Student Version (not available to biz.) I know. I talked to them personally.
Here is a list of the Linux CAD progs/projects that I've come across:
http://www.qcad.org/index.php3
http://www.cycas.de/
http://www.microform.se/index.htm#VAR
http://ftp.arl.mil/brlcad//
http://www.fpa-engineers.com/OD/
http://pw2.netcom.com/~iamcliff/FREEdraft.html
http://www.octree.de/
peace favor your sword
rendering stuff underlinux has been done for a long time because its fast
modeling under linux is going to be slow without proper hardware and so you again are limited to venders of machines and their surport for an OS hmm why do people use IRIX and NT ?
yes I am talking more about CGG than pure CAD which modeling non animated structures
MAYA !! thats what we want !
regards
john
a poor student @ bournemouth uni in the UK (a deltic so please dont moan about spelling but the content)
damn right !!
good LINKS !!!
respect
a poor student @ bournemouth uni in the UK (a deltic so please dont moan about spelling but the content)
Check out varkon at www.microform.se
It's not exactly a conventional CAD package, but it is very powerful and customisable, and you can start it in a conventional 2D drafting mode as well as parametric 3D mode.
There's a project to GTK/GNOME up a UI for the 2D part of the program - but the 3D part is the really cool bit.
Choice of masters is not freedom.
While I do see QCAD as a valuable, useful tool, and I encourage its development, a GPL'd CAD program is simply unlikely to have the robustness of a commercial package required to earn the trust and support of commercial enterprises. CAD is a serious, serious business, and small, subtle bugs can lead to extremely expensive (or dangerous) mistakes. A word processor, etc. simply doesn't have such a stringent requirement.
There are some excellent candidates of UNIX CAD software which could be ported to Linux, however:
1. ProEngineer - Long a staple of high-end CAD houses and universities. Robust and powerful.
2. SDRC Ideas - My favorite - Is smart enough to understand 'design intent', so you aren't forced to constrain every dimension, as you are in ProE (last I checked). Also does very nice motion animation when performing actions. Arguably more of a powerhouse package (included lots of multi-user project management and FEM).
Back when I was actively using Ideas, there was a lot of support for a linux port on their mailing lists. I don't know what became of it, but it would be worth encouraging SDRC to develop a port. I can't imagine it would require a whole lot of work, and could certainly have a userbase comparable to the other Unix flavors.
- hebgb
I should also point out that this 3D CAD package is used in a professional environment by several european companies, often as the engine behind their own customised application user interface.
Choice of masters is not freedom.
Varkon is a powerful parametric 2d/3d CAD program although it has a fairly steep learning curve and doesn't have CAM capabilities. I designed an addition to our house in 2d and 3d, and the results were great and plenty good enough for the building department to approve. Check out http://www.varkon.com for more info.
One is doing it all in house and the other is possibly getting help from HP.
But because of the NT push in both companies, these projects are probably moving slow.
Yes, let these companies know that you want a Linux port, or they will claim "nobody asked for it."
I haven't actually tried the software, but if the package actually meets all the claims, it is definitely worth checking out. One thing I'm not sure of is whether it supports AutoCAD's LISP extensibility features. Our company has done a lot of customization for AutoCAD using LISP, and I don't think I could realistically recommend it to our folks if it meant we had to rewrite all our menus and LISP routines.
JD
I suspect it doesn't get as much attention in the US, simply because it's made in Sweden. Many Americans may simply be unaware of it's existence.
:-). Of course, generic CNC support would be a tad harder...you'd have to create a database structure for material properties, and machine tool specs. Of course, varkon does ODBC on windows, and the linux version could easily query postgresql through the shell.
Also, varkon is extensible. Although I've no intention of doing it, it would be possible to extend it via some clever coding to make it spit out CNC machine programs, depending on how comprehensive you wanted the support. A varkon single surface to a particular cnc miller translator would be relatively simple. I'd do it, except I'm busy exporting varkon models to a CFD code for part of my final year mech. eng. project in university
Choice of masters is not freedom.
www.linuxcad.com
www.microform.se
I'm paying some attention to what's going on with gEDA and PCB. Those are programs for electronics CAD. I can only speak for my self, but I guess many people, like electrical engineers, know their "trade" much better than the inner workings of a user interface.
What I am requesting is a general CAD toolkit etc for which you can write (parts of) your particular application as a plugin. One candidate (though I haven't mentionied this idea to their development list) is dia.
--
Borge
Therefore, it's likely that this new program will sprout the wings and halo of 3d capability relatively soon, especially compared to a totally commercial, closed source deal.
So, don't try to put the nails in the coffin of what might be a healthy program, before it has time to stand on its own. If the base of the program is worthwhile, the rest of the features will come... and I'm also betting that about a third of the biggest complaints are from people with the experience and skill to add what they need to the program. Why not try it? If you're good, you'll end up with a 3dCAD with the ablities and interface you need, rather than some piece of bloated, commerical junk, that you had to buy a few thousand worth of expansions for, just to make it serve your purpose. Don't just let the newcomer die a-birthing.. Or GPL software won't ever become a viable alternative to monopolies, such as M$, or near monopolies, like ACAD.
Effort can temper a man's body, but only experience can temper his soul.
Professional designers don't switch CAD packages at a whim, because of new features or a new OS or what have you. People that don't use CAD professionally don't realize the skillset invested in a particular product--much more so than with most other software. In a way it's similar to how people use PhotoShop or some high-end 3D package. The proficiency in using a particular package is much more important to productivity than any potential benefit gained by switching, except in very rare cases, once a decade or less.
Besides, there's another aspect of CAD that precludes switching: scripts. Any serious AutoCAD user has a hard drive full of AutoLISP scripts (or even compiled C programs) that do most of the meat of production: insert entire subsections into a drawing, calculate complicated metrics, adjust scales etc. AutoCAD shops often hire people just to develop these scripts and have a lot of money invested in them. Switching CAD platforms requires you to pretty much throw out all this stuff.
No, in the real world people wait for their CAD vendor to offer all the new features of the competitors, even if it takes several versions. There's a product loyalty like in few other fields. The only people that switch CAD platforms at will are casual users like students or weekend designers who have nothing much invested in one product or another.
Parametric Technology, the developer of Pro/Engineer, is an active participant on the XGL porting effort. They have stated that they will bring Pro/E to Linux when O/GL and XGL are ready.
For those unfamiliar, Pro/E is the leading CAD system in the MCAD market. At ~$28K per seat, it may not be for everyone. For those who use it, little else is taken seriously. The company to whom I contract has seventy seats of Pro/E and I own one as well. Many of the engineers with whom I work have been eagerly anticipating a move to Linux.
The main problem with Pro/E on NT is that the machine needs to be rebooted at least once a week. The performance is OK, but would almost certainly improve on Linux as Pro/E was originally a Unix application.
This category of CAD software is where large gains can be made by Linux. Many engineers prefer the Unix environment, but like the price/performance ration of Intel hardware. Enter the Penguin!
"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers."
"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers."
-- Pablo Picasso
Linuxcad is not a replacement for autocad. They are so ashamed of it that they have added a term to their license that supposedly prevents you from talking about your experiences. It also will cost more than $99, a lot more. It has a very poor user interface that will not be familiar to an Autocad user. It took 'em two years to fix a buffer overrun crash if you type too long a comand. It does not accept the spacebar as a command delimiter. Its menus are totally different. It does not accept x,y,z 3D points. It does not read .dwg. It does not write dxf or dwg files (without extra cost add-ons). It does not do Lisp. Its drawing area is fixed and does not resize with window size changes. The list of differences (and inferiorities) goes on and on.
l .
It is nothing more than a completely different, not nearly as good, CAD package that is shamelessly comparing itself to Autocad. I'm amazed AutoDesk hasn't sued these guys, however they are. About the only similarity is that the command to draw a line is "line". All in all, I believe their newsgroup spams and their website (which is a windoze based server BTW) is a pack of lies and these "guys" should be avoided like the plague. There is a review at http://pweb.netcom.com/~rwuest/linuxcadreview.htm
Do your homework and save yourself $99.
Perhaps a script translation utility capable of converting autoLisp scripts to MBS, coupled with Varkon itself, would address the original poster's concerns and allow his shop to migrate.
Interoperability with existing, installed software is important, if only to preserve and maintain existing work and data. This is one of the reasons I was so dismayed when Sun bought StarOffice (which has excellent interoperability with M$ Office), even though I personally prefer Word Perfect. The ability to read and write M$ native formats made migration away from Windows for our office staff much, much easier.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
I bought ustation for linux about 3 years ago.
I don't currently use it because of libc incompatibility which I have not had time ti rectify. This does point out a *major* shortcoming in commercial software: the free software world moves much faster. It just seems ridiculous to me that a recompile from libc5 to libc6 requires me to fork out another $300 for an upgrade.
So, how does it work? Not too bad, even on a p100 with 48M ram. Other than an inordinately long startup time, the program it self runs fine once it gets under. I did notice color map problems in later versions of xfree86. The biggest issue that I have is the postscript export routine makes the assumption that one is running windows. So every line ends with ^M, and there is a binary end-of-file trailer that must be removed. This points out another serious weakness of commercial software. I (rightly) regard the postscript problem as a bug, and could fix it pretty fast if I had the source code. I am sure though that this falls way down on Bentley's priority list, so I am not holding my breath. What would be superb would be to have fig2dev support for dgn->ps, but now I am really dreaming.
Another issue is possible lack of support for graphics tablets. Mouse driven pointers SUCK compared to a 4-button puck on a graphics tablet set to move under absolute coordinates. ustation certainly supports tablets, but I have never seen any linux boxes with a tablet hooked up, or much documentation for doing so.
In summary, good program.
Subject says it all. What is needed is AutoDesk to release a Linux version of AutoCAD 2000.
Right now the Macintosh has better CAD tools than Linux, on the Mac you have MicroStation, Ashlar Vellum, MiniCAD and VectorWorks. AutoDesk supported Macintosh until R12.
If AutoDesk won't release ACAD 2K...bug Ashlar and Diehl Graphsoft for Vellum and/or VectorWorks.
If I-DEAS were available, I would most likely purchase a personal edition. The problem is, I might convince myself to do work at home....
There's a personal edition I believe for NT. I feel left out.
~afniv
"Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
~afniv
"Man könnte froh sein, wenn die Luft so rein wäre wie das Bier"
Richard von Weizs
I should not be forced to use windows, in the USA I should have a choice.
send flames > /dev/null
Only 'flamers' flame!
Hi! Here is the point of view from a random developer who has also decided to remove Qt from his PC...
The license in Qt 2.0 is much better than in the previous version (and accepted as being OpenSource) but the previous license caused me to dislike Qt very much and I would need a good reason to get back to it. "Once bitten, twice shy."
Also, there is no free version of Qt 2.0 for Windows. This is very important from my point of view: even if the license for the Linux version of Qt is good, the only version available for Win32 is rather expensive and prevents most developers from porting their applications to both systems. Of course, someone could develop a free Qt for Windows, but that does not exist yet. I do not want to install a library on my system if I know that any application that I write using this library (free under Linux) would become non-free under Windows.
In the meantime, GTK+ has reached its maturity level and I consider it to be superior to Qt (on a feature level). And GTK+ is available for free on several platforms, including Windows and OS/2. Another reason why I like GTK+ is that it does not tie the developer to C++. GTK+ can be used with C, C++, Perl, Python and other languages, while the support for other languages in Qt has been lacking for a long time (only partial implementations). So if I can do more with GTK+ than with Qt, why would I re-install Qt on my system?
Sorry, but for the moment Qt is still on my black list. In order for me to adopt Qt, it would need to be available for free (speech and beer) under Windows and to provide good bindings for ANSI C (not C++) and Perl.
-Raphaël
Like alot of people here have said, no one is going to use this cad package. They have all of their files in AutoCAD format or something else. When I was a CAD Operator we used Microstation and you can't just switch packages because it is on a better os. And lemme tell you... it would be nice if that could happen because it running on Windows NT is horrible. I had to reboot multiple times a day because of memory problems.
But you see, Microstation has these 3rd party extensions like fieldworks and draftworks by intergraph that make up more than 50% of it's total functionality for what we were doing. This could not be applied to another cad package and I am not sure if you could simply move Microstation to another OS. I don't know if the Intergraph parts would still be functional. Once the CAD community starts demanding, I am sure change will happen. But it still may be some time. I mean in a professional business like CAD, there is no time to deal with silly issues like memory leaks and faulty Operating Systems. Its time to wise up and just use what works.
Also to the person that said Microstation was on the mac. Do the intergraph plugins work there too? That would at least be somewhat better. Then again I am not a CAD Operator anymore. hehe.
IRNI
Since QCad is GPL'd wouldn't it be possible to add a Guile scripting facility to it?
And since Guile is a Scheme-based scripting language and Scheme is a Lisp dialect couldn't it be possible to write a Guile module to provide the AutoLISP compatibility.
Even if this is not a 100% compatibility this probably would help a lot to port scripts to QCad.
Is there some reason this can't be done?
Is it being done at the time?
"The obvious mathematical breakthrough would be development of an easy way to factor large prime numbers." Bill Gates,
Doing mostly plant design and the occasional generic support building, I've found the specialized tools of the Microstation family to better suit my needs, especially with object handling and cataloging. I've worked with AutoCAD quite a bit over the years and it has always struck me as the "MS Office" of the CAD world: contains a bit of everything, is clunky, and is widely used because "everyone else uses is".
I've seen many organizations switch from MacOS or Solaris over to Windows just because AutoCAD is so popular and is now Windows-only. It's a sad situation and I'm hoping for the best in the Linux 2D/3D CAD arena.
Subject tells all
Exactly! The last thing we need is a bloated tries-to-do-it-all CAD suite like AutoCAD. Sure, AutoCAD can do a lot and is rather bug-free, but I'd rather just have one custom plugin to do a task rather than go though hoops or fight other "time savers".
This is the CAD package that DoD requires ground vehical designs to be submitted in. It is a 3d solid modeling system with the fastest raytracer I know of. It also has built in clustering methods. I personally have run animation generation sequence using over 100 CPUs on over 20 cabnets.
While it is not a GPL product it is free to anybody that is willing to send a fax saying they wont claim it as thier own. Check it out.
CTJ
Seems like all 'new' Linux software ears a 5/5 rating or 4 stars or product of the year award or some other rating that it doesn't necessarily deserve? If this software was released for windows and compared to other windows-based CAD software, there is no way it would earn a 5/5.
I know we all get excited when something like this is released, but it really should be compared to the competition -- whether or not it is windows software.
get nemulator
You also need support a large format printer/plotter's . Support for all kinds of file formats. I tend to think that CAD is one of the most complicated programs that a computer can tackle. My office uses Archicad, one of the best solutions for Architects around, IMHO. You would need to see a really good 3D program for any serious designers to come onboard. 2D is on the way out, just look at Autodesk's efforts to make it as a 3D player.
CAD is a huge industry, and you need more that just a few apps, you need all of the supporting industries on board.
Who is the master of foxhounds, and who says the hunt has begun? -Pink Floyd
....and the Xerox ALTO GUI (ok, it didn't have overlapping windows, or "drop down" menus, but it did use a 3-button mouse and a graphical display).
the linux bunch can swing this kinda thing themselves from the bottom end [emulation] a lot easier than say getting autodesk and all the other killer software companies to REALLY port autocad or *whatever* to native linux...
besides, i don't want to have to wait for every app i want to be ported to linux just so i can use it... just think of the other killer apps for 3-d etc out there that are waiting for the linux community to make wine or *whatever* truly what we want it to be.
<---[singularity sig]
Some of you may be familiar with VectorWorks, once called MiniCAD, which has a pretty good share of the Mac CAD market (and doesn't cost an arm and a leg like AutoCAD, just a few fingers.) We also have a Windows version, so we're willing to be cross-platform. If you're a potential customer for a commercial, professional-level (as opposed to consumer market) CAD program for Linux, send e-mail to rich@diehlgraphsoft.com, encouraging him to consider a Linux version.
If you hate all proprietary software, send hate mail to me instead.
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
And know of a few others who have $25,000 the people at
www.weber.com
Would *LOVE* to have a reason to leave the Microsoft environment and return to Unix.
However, this is the 'facts' about the CAM/CAD market (as their customers tell them)
Unless they are a Unix shop, they don't ask for Unix.
No new customer for 1-1.25 years have asked about the Unix version.
So, all they sell is the NT version.
TO DATE THERE HAVE BEEN NO QUERIES ABOUT LINUX!
(and this is not an open invite to bother them. Unless you have the NEED for a $25,000 CAM package, don't be asking for a port)
So, for all the 'hype' (and self-hype on this site), none of their prospective customers are using Linux, or are considering Linux.
The engineering market has been resisting the pull to NT, but as far as the maker of software in this market is concerned...Unix is a dead issue.
If it was said on slashdot, it MUST be true!
Hmm... Qt handles multithreading a hell of a lot better (read handles at all) than gtk+ - in fact, the only toolkits that handle multithreading better that I've seen are the BeOS system GUI, and Amiga MUI.
The Intellicad consortium has released their source code free to non commercial developers at http://www.intellicad.org/ If someone could get this to build for Linux it would be great. One of the developers has built a windows version for free download at http://www.cadopia.com/ This would be a great package for Linux as it can directly read and write Acad dwg files.
spot on
gCAD updated their website !
last I heard they had got their mits on alphas then they seemed to stop useing the website (-;
regards
john
a poor student @ bournemouth uni in the UK (a deltic so please dont moan about spelling but the content)
(Slightly OT; I think I've mentioned this before.)
At this year's Design Automation Conference in New Orleans, there were penguins everywhere. Most of the exhibitors seemed oblivious to the Linux connection, but I asked as many as possible about Linux versions.
The near-universal response was that they would have a Linux version of their software as soon as they got an order large enough to make it worthwhile. Says I, "I know that porting to Linux is easy." Replied they: "No, you don't understand. Our developers insist on doing Linux first, then porting to other systems. We just need an order."
Apparently Model Technology (BIG simulation company) got the order; they announced that starting in December they'll be shipping Linux versions along with all of their other platforms.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
but you are correct in that it is a solution to this problem, tho my thoughts are more towards an open source solution that eliminates the need for the additional os to run, and something that doesn't require me to fork out another $300... hey, i like the *freeness* of opensource stuff! :)
<---[singularity sig]
The popular UG Solutions CAD/CAM system called Unigraphics is being investigated for porting to Linux. See the study at http://associate.co m/innovative/glen_stewart/cam-migration.html
It may not do DWG, but it does do DXF without extra cost.
Does this CAD program export GDSII files. It seems like many industry companies use these files but its very hard to find CAD programs costing less than $10,000 that support this format.
I'd love to see some non-AutoCAD 2D/3D CADCAM package take the linux world by storm. AutoCAD is a fine piece of work, but it's layout and overall feel is nothing compared to some of the more specialized packges out there. Work with one of the Microstation modules or even Vectorworks (if you want something general) for more than 10 hours and you'll see what I mean.
This is how QCad will look under KDE :)
Qt 1.x can look like Windows or Motif. Qt2.0 can look like whatever the hell you want. Anti-KDE/Qt Gnome people think that they can just mention the word "Windows" and everyone will run around screaming.
Qt has widgets for Rich Text, network transparent IO, Unicode, has more widgets, animation, and OpenGL. KDE adds XML support, KParts, a java capable HTML widget (gnome had to steal KDE's old one), and a ton of other features Gnome doesn't even come close to.
One just has to listen to their Windows-uber-alles rhetoric to know this.
So after you spend 30K on a Pro-E license, and 20K on specialized workstations to run it, you're going to get excited about saving $100 on the OS?
Hey buddy, your MSCE is showing.
... if you have to use windows, vmware is the solution for the following reasons:
1) it boots/reboots faster than native windows
2) you can run multiple versions of windows on the same machine at the same time, so developers don't need 2 windows machines anymore (one to use while the other reboots...)
3) you can use vmware in logged transaction mode, so when your windows software upgrade hoses your system, you can exit the session and choose to discard all session changes and be back to your previous, less-unstable config.
4) vmware has no driver issues because it uses a GENERIC VIRTUAL MACHINE. You can finally mass deploy Windows NT with all apps installed by just copying over an entire drive image to any computer running vmware.
5) vmware on linux with Windows is sort of like Linux with training wheels -- makes it much easier to migrate users to linux and giving them some time to ween themselves from windows.
more carefully to find out the real scoop here.
If you want to run a 2D package, run CoCreate ME10 on Linux, should be out end of October (CoCreate is a Hewlett Packard Company). They have a very good 3D System as well which is not yet ported to Linux. But they consider to do it...
They will not port it. Period. So let's try to develop useful alternatives, drawing on their model.
You can get ME CAD for Linux today from CoCreate Software. Their ME10 package is very easy to use and available on several platforms. You can read more about it at "http://www.cocreate.com/english/news/press/linux. htm"
EDA = Electronics Design Automation. I'm talking about packages that do schematic capture, PCB layout, HDL/VHDL, SPICE simulations (both digital and mixed-mode), etc. OrCAD and Protel are both (allegedly) "leaders" in software for this field, and MicroCode Engineering (now a division of Protel) is not far behind for low-to-midrange stuff, but none of them have a Linux version of their stuff. Yes, I'm aware of GEDA... I'm more comfortable with the stuff I've been using to date. Until they do, I'm forced into using Windbloze NT for my EDA work (mainly because there's no way I can justify, or afford, packages like Mentor Graphics or those mentioned above!)
Netscape 4.6 and 4.7 crash hard when trying to have a look at http://qcad.org Sure, it's idiot netscape's fault, but I would think qcad would test their pages, if only to generate confidence that they also test their products.
WHO GIVES A SHIT THIS ARTICLE IS NOT ABOUT YOUR PETTY LITTLE PROBLEMS WITH THE QT LICENSE NOT GIVING YOU WARM FUZZIES.
The DIA canvas was just released as a component for just this purpose. But, DIA has the look-and-feel of Visio not a typical CAD program. Not that that's a bad thing - it's much less cumbersome. But probably not as full-featured either. And of course it's not 3D.
Arcad: www.arcad.de
LinuxCAD: www.linuxcad.com
Cycas: www.cycas.de
more (URL forgotten)
QCad/CAM-Expert
Microstation
And this isn't something that is going to be fixed by slapping a few GUI fronts on some of the configuration files. Linux is not designed for non-geeks and it's silly to keep on pushing it as a desktop OS in its current form. Most of the people who hack Linux and many of the people who advocate it fiercely don't even understand Joe-average-user enough to understand why Linux is so hard for him to use.
As a computer programmer, there is a lot about Linux that I love. But I also know that designing software that is easy to use by anyone is one of the most difficult and important goals of designing good software, and this is an area where Linux doesn't even attempt to make an effort. And why should it? It makes a damn nice server for people who know what they're doing. Leave it at that and stop harrassing those poor dumb Windows users. They have enough problems.
Ok, you can start telling me how wrong I am now...
Anyone whos used Autocad will know each and every version has an incompatable file format, a real bitch when some architect has given you plans on version X and you have version X1 (enter drawing librarian...anyway). For ANY! Cad system to take off on linux its gotta have 100%! i repeat 100% import export filters for acad. 2D is plenty good for a cad system, i dont know many engineers/architects/designers who draw in 3D on the computer, too cumbersome, too slow, too expensive.
The ACIS solid modeler is available on Linux, see http://www.spatial.com
everything uradu says is right yet the moderators only give it a score of 1????????? hes probably hit on the most important point and hardest nut to crack for new "cad systems".
Yes, Pro/E would be nice indeed. Assuming that a port would bring along Mech/structure, thermal and the other add-ons. Imagine that on a DS-20. A real killer.
/jarek
I have downloaded the Intellicad Source and can tell you that porting it would be a nightmare. It is so heavily wrapped into windows functions and structures/classes than it would prove a living hell to even try.
I also contacted the Intellicad Consortium regarding starting an open source project for porting this to Linux. Their response: they like the idea, but require that any/all developers register with them (no cost here, at least), and you can't post the source code anywhere except through them. I can post the full text of Ron Prepchuk of Visio's response if anyone is interested.
On a final note, Intellicad makes use of the OpenDWG libraries (http://www.opendwg.org). Unfortunately, OpenDWG is anything but open (unless, your CHECKBOOK is open first). There currently is no port of this library to Linux (though they are "working on it"), and the source code is simply not available for anything less than $10,000.00. On a positive note, they do publish a specification of the DWG file format that is the results of their reverse engineering efforts.
give me unigraphics alias imageware surfacer and catia in linux and it might make me a bit happier going into work every morning, but my job relies on the software not what os it runs on. if the companys want to goto linux thats fine, but from the high end 3d cad/caid end of things deadlines are always 3 weeks past due, and your whole time on the system is in the cad program or in the pdm environment, the only time you think about what os the software is using is when you accidentaly minimize all windows, or when you come home from work and happen to visit slashdot :) maybe the nickle and dime world of packages like autocrap and masterscam are different, but high end packages are about deadlines and productivity and os's take a distand 1000th place on the priority list.
Over 30 tested and supported at last count. Please get a clue.
You say Qt has some more widgets than GTK... Qt has *much* more of *everything* than Gtk. Data structure classes, I/O classes, widgets, everything. If you take Gnome/KDE out of the scenario, which obviously you want to do, then things swing even more in favor of Qt. As far as the license whining, I will ignore that as it's been beaten to death. If GTK/Gnome fans can't win on technical points they will bitch about a license.
More like half that, although it's still tested on much more than GTK including on things like QNX. There is even rumors of a native mac port.
I'm viewing it in Communicator 4.61 on Mandrake now.
Ah, but the tao tells us that the post that is the First Post is not the First Post. So this apprentice First Poster may or may not have actually made a First Post. QED. Hope this helps.
quite frankly, what engineers want is whatever gets the job done. That is an attitude but also a necessity since you get paid for what you design.
That said, there are two kinds of CAD in engineering, for less than 5k you get AutoCAD, for more than 10k you go with UG or Catia. The first is used mainly for 2D stuff but more and more also for design tasks in 3D. The first runs on PC's but without a GL accelrator performance in 3D is bad. UG and Catia and the likes run on high end workstations none of em run Linux but typically AIX or Solaris or HP-UX. If you have used UG on a new SUN you will not like anything running on an NT box.
2D CAD doesnt make much sense for todays design and construction demands so just forget about it. Any good 3D program will do 2D so you might as well.
For decent 3D you need OpenGL hardware and thats what Linux does not yet have - I do not count the alpha drivers yet.
To write a CAD application, there is much more involved then the 101st xpaint clone. Look e.g. at techsofts website where they actually have a Hoops and Parasolid implementation for Linux. These are the kind of software preliminaries that you need to write a CAD application that makes sense. And none of these are available as free or open software.
When XFree86-4 will come out with hardware GL support then we are talking Catia ME10 and UG, then we will at least see some commercial applications support Linux.
Having looked a little at QCAD, I like it a lot. Good things about it include:
But:
So it's a good beginning, but I'd like to see a lot more development.
BTW, is anyone else interested in FormZ on Linux? (Vendor AutoDesSys.) Were it available on Linux, I think a lot of starving architecture students would quickly snap it (and Linux) up.
Wrong.
Read this. The Autodesk Files by John Walker, one of the company's founders.
It's an interesting look at corporate culture and the history of computing in the '80s regardless of your interest in CAD/CAM.
k.
"In spite of everything, I still believe that people are really good at heart." - Anne Frank
Yes a CAD application for Linux would be a good thing, but I doubt that it would have a "large conversion of Engineers to linux" You might get a few converts, especially private drafters that work alone. But there would not be a mad rush from large, small or any offices. First off it would need to stay uniform for file sharing and not every one would want to do that .
I have been told by a former PTC higher-up that a Linux port of Pro/ENGINEER currently exists and has been demonstrated by PTC to key customers.
Apparently some VERY big accounts have been asking about it. Not surprising since Pro/E is used enough in some big aerospace companies which still have a big reliance on Unix. SGI has also prompted some of this, since SGI has been the premiere Pro/E platform, at least until lately, and they are now fully pursuing Linux.
I believe the port to Linux will be announced in the next six months.