Linux Unreal Tournament Status Update

slothdog writes "Brandon Reinhart of Epic Games has updated his .plan with some more info about the open-sourcing of Unreal Tournament for Linux. Specifically, it will be available under the Artistic License and coordinated through SourceForge. A little snoop-work will lead you to the project's page. Yummy. "

Comments

Very cool...

[Fiore2]

Very cool...

Commercial Project

[Yebyen]

The open sourcing of a commercial project that's selling well and was recently released... sounds like they've 1-up'd ID. Suddenly I have an urge to go buy UT and get the linux binaries...

Re:Commercial Project

[Defiler]

Well, it's not exactly the same as giving out the code for the engine itself. Don't get me wrong, it's still excellent.. Just don't compare the code they're releasing for UT to what id released for Quake1.

Re:Commercial Project

[Foogle]

Riiiiiight... They're 1-up'ing ID how? Epic isn't releasing the whole game Open Source, the .plan even said so. It's nice that they're OS'ing some of it, but it's hardly free software.

-----------

"You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."

Re:Commercial Project

[N1KO]

when did id release the whole source to q3arena?

Re:Commercial Project

[Foogle]

They didn't. What difference does it make? Both Q3Arena and Unreal are games that you have to pay for... So once again I ask: How is Epic 1-up'ing Id?

-----------

"You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."

Re:Commercial Project

[Yebyen]

Eh I misread the article. I thought that in the client there was some bit of usefulness. They're not 1-up'ing anything.

open source

[jagne]

"Teach Epic about open source projects. If this goes well, we'll probably look into releasing more source in this fashion"

it is great to see that brandon reinhart is betting on open source. I really hope to see more projects opened this way.

jaime g. wong

ps: FIRST POST!!! :)

Re:open source

[eoPh]

a little late for the first post thing, but nice try :]

excellent

[eoPh]

unreal tournament open source?

that's the best new's i've heard today, U.T being one of the finest games i've ever seen.
but what i wonder is will we get cheaters like what happen when quake1 went gpl?
just something to ponder

Re:excellent

[Yebyen]

Generally it's possible to cheat whether it's open source or not. I'm not talking about single player cheating, there's almost always cheat codes for that. Remember Diablo and Bobafett? If not, run a search on them and see.

Re:excellent

[cronio]

Unreal tournament is NOT being opensourced. Read the .plan and you'll see that only certain parts are. (the game engine isn't, along with most of the rest of the game).

Engine

[bibos]

I'd love to see that whole engine open-sourced it's looking dam good.

Re:Engine

[Foogle]

Yeah, there's a lot of things that I'm sure we'd all like to see open-sourced, but get real it's not going to happen. Selling "support" for Operating Systems is one thing, but for games? Forget it. If someone thinks of a way to make money off free games, I'd love to hear it... And the street-performer-protocol doesn't count.

-----------

"You can't shake the Devil's hand and say you're only kidding."

Re:Engine

[bibos]

hehe ya ;) exactly my thoughts

oh but have a look at if u didnt do that already and check out that old article about the plan to persuade Westwood into Open-Sourcing Command & Conquer1. Now THAT would be something cool to see happen.

Definately worth a look (and maybe even an e-mail)

Re:Engine

[Anonymous Coward]

Definately worth a look

This is the 10th time today I've read "definately" on Slashdot today, and I just can't take it anymore. How do you people's minds work? Have you no connection between one word and the next? Don't you see the connections between words sharing common stems? I completely, totally, and genuinely fail to understand this. What about definition? Or infinite? Or nondeterministic finite automaton? Or a zillion other words, like:

% grep finit /usr/dict/words | fmt
affinitative affinitatively affinite affinities affinition affinitive affinity affinity's coinfinite coinfinity confinity definite definitely definiteness definition definitional definitiones definition's definitive definitively definitiveness definitization definitize definitor definitude diffinity electroaffinity finitary finite finitely finiteness finitesimal finitive finitude finity indefinite indefinitely indefiniteness indefinitive indefinitively indefinitiveness indefinitude indefinity infinitant infinitarily infinitary infinitate infinitation infinite infinitely infiniteness infinitesimal infinitesimalism infinitesimality infinitesimally infinitesimalness infiniteth infinities infinitieth infinitival infinitivally infinitive infinitively infinitive's infinitize infinitude infinitum infinituple infinity nondefinition nondefinitive nonfinite noninfinite noninfinitely predefinite predefinition predefinition's redefinition redefinition's semidefinite subdefinition superfinite superinfinite superinfinitely transfinite unfinite uninfinite uninfiniteness

% grep finat /usr/dict/words | fmt
affination raffinate

Somehow, your mind is not making connections between all these. I don't understand at all.

Re:Engine

[Anonymous Coward]

This is most likely due to the way it is pronounced. Pronounce it out loud and you will find why it is easily mistaken.

Many people do not write down unknown words and definitions that they encounter. Therefore they are doomed to repeat these grammar errors for a lifetime unless they either encounter it enough, it is pointed out by someone else, or they have a good memory.

Heck, with all the work I have, I can barely remember the names of people I meet with daily. Fortunately, I keep a log of all new words or spelling errors :)

Re:Engine

[Anonymous Coward]

When you see a new word, you just try to learn it by rote? No wonder it's so hard. If you never try to fit it into a larger, interlocked system, it'll never make as much sense.

Re:Engine

[Anonymous Coward]

This is false. The dictionary gives examples that I use. I then try to incorporate these new words into daily language if feasible.

It's easy to find the gist of a new word in context to a sentence, but the dictionary definition is concise -- as well as several examples showing almost every context.

Re:Engine

[jacoplane]

Forget Epic releasing the engine as open-source...they get loads of money from licencing it to other companies.

RMS says

[GNUs-Not-Good]

it should be GNU/Unreal.

Unreal is just the engine, but is incomplete without GNU.

Re:RMS says

[eoPh]

anything is incomplete unless it's open-source or under the GPL

Re:RMS says

[Anonymous Coward]

I take exception with your nick, Mr Gnu's-Not-Good. I believe you are speaking ill of the Good Software Group, without whom no good could come of any software. Don't you realize how evil you are? :-)

They didn't *HAVE* to do this.

[tweek]

What amazes me is the forward thinking going on by Epic on this. I'm sure it is one person who has been pushing this but none the less. They didn't have to open ANYTHING up. Myself, I was just happy that it was available for linux at all. Kudos to all involved in making this an option much less a reality. And yes I realize that the engine itself isn't going to be opened (just yet ;>).

This begs a deeper point. Notice that Brandon states:
We don't
have any plans to release the engine proper (certainly not until
all our licensees games are finished)

I wonder if more companies will do something along these lines as id did. When a technology becomes aged in a certain sense, release the source to help further the game scene. Releasing source like this could foster an intrest in younger developers who might not have thought about development before. Didn't borland/inprise/nameofthemonth opensource an old IDE not to long ago?

UT *NOT* Open Source!!!!!

[Foxpaw]

All of UT is not being open sourced. The engine is still closed. What is being open sourced is certain portions like the Mesa Renderer, the Glide Renderer, the Audio Libraries, The X Renderer and the X Launcher.

So while it's a step in the right direction, it's not exactly the bliss that everyone thinks it is. Still, being my favorite game right now, I'd really like to see the Mesa Renderer completed so I can play it under Linux.

Re:UT *NOT* Open Source!!!!!

[banky]

I've been playing it fine for the past few weeks (first the demo, then the retail w/ downloaded binaries). What I want to see fixed is the damn "doesn't work under E" bug, though I grow more fond of Sawmill as the days go on (sorry to go offtopic there)

Point being, I think that baby-steps are important. You're dealing with a company that isn't about to just leap from one paradigm to another.

Re:UT *NOT* Open Source!!!!!

[Andy Dodd]

I have to agree... Still, it's actually a slightly better job than ID has done. (i.e. releasing portions of the engine itself, beyond the gameplay mod-author-food code)

I'd have gone out and bought UT if they'd released the source to their networking code - now THAT needs some serious improvement! (It blows chunkss compared to even the original Quake 1 - I get better gameplay over a modem with Q1 than I do with UT on a cable modem!)

Now I would LOVE to see this happen with other companies. (c'mon - you KNOW you want to play Wing Commander on Linux, even the original one! :) Even though it probably WOULD run under Dosemu...

But the renderers and audio portions are definately one thing that stands to benefit a lot from open source... Even if there aren't serious bugs, there's the issue of what happens when new rendering and audio APIs, etc. come out. Note that the original GLQuake was unfortunately quite 3Dfx-specific, to the point where using it with a standard GL driver was a ROYAL pain in the ass. That reminds me, have to download the new code. :)

Re:UT *NOT* Open Source!!!!!

[Foxpaw]

I've been playing it fine for the past few weeks (first the demo, then the retail w/ downloaded binaries). What I want to see fixed is the damn "doesn't work under E" bug, though I grow more fond of Sawmill as the days go on (sorry to go offtopic there)

Do you have a Voodoo card? The Glide Renderer works fine, I have a TNT2, the Mesa Renderer segfaults on me. Oh yeah, and Sawmill rules :)

Point being, I think that baby-steps are important. You're dealing with a company that isn't about to just leap from one paradigm to another.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I think what they're doing is great and Brandon should be commended for helping them take these steps towards open source. I hope everything works out for the better and that they take a few more steps in that direction. I was really just trying to point out that while the original news article made it sound like the the whole source base to UT had been open sourced, it was really just certain libraries.

Anyway, congratulations to Epic and Digital Extremes for an awesome game and for having the balls to try something new.

Re:UT *NOT* Open Source!!!!!

[Raven667]

>I'd have gone out and bought UT if they'd released the source to their networking code - now THAT needs some serious improvement! (It blows chunkss compared to even the original Quake 1 - I get better gameplay over a modem with Q1 than I do with UT on a cable modem!)

Maybe you are thinking of the origional Unreal? My experience with UT is completely different, the computer that I run it on (not my own) is a PII450 with a 56K Winmodem, and no 3d card (ATI RagePro). I have no problem and the gameplay online is very smooth, the same cannot be said for Q2 on the same machine which is unplayable online. UT does not appear to be sensitive to the winmodem or the V.90 protocol which have caused problems with programs that require low latency connections.

YYMV

Re:UT *NOT* Open Source!!!!!

[Andy Dodd]

Never played the original Unreal.

Is there any significant difference between the UT demo and the full version? The changelogs Epic has on their site don't indicate any vast improvements in networking code between v.348 (demo) and 400 (retail)

a) I rarely get less than 200 ping over even a cable modem, and i often have that rise to 500+. It's easy to get sub-50ms pings with Q3.

b) Before you say that Unreal measures ping differently (it probably does) - I get better netplay with a 300-400 ms ping on QuakeWorld than with 150 ping playing UT demo.

Lag-jumping is evil. (Specifically, you move, only to *poof* back to your starting spot over and over again.)

I'd buy the full version of UT to see if netcode was improved if I could find a store around here that accepts returns of opened software.

Re:UT *NOT* Open Source!!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd agree here too. At 500ms the game is very playable. I may teleport here and there -- but it generally does not mean a death. Half life and quakeworld on the same machine aren't even close. In fact, they are unplayable given my current skills and ability to judge where an enemy is going beforehand.

Re:UT *NOT* Open Source!!!!!

[Foxpaw]

Seems odd to me. I also have a cable modem and I get more than enough sub 100ms ping servers. But I guess cable providers and location can make a difference. I'm in CA and have Cox@Home. The netcode as far as I can tell is great, but I've never played on a server with greater than 300ms ping.

Re:UT *NOT* Open Source!!!!!

[Andy Dodd]

Hmm... Maybe the retail version DID improve things over the demo...

Well, it'll be another week or more before I have access to a store that allows returns of opened software in cas UT retail is as disappointing as the demo.

Even w/o the policy, it's where I'd buy my games - 20% employee discounts rock. :) (Campus Store)

Re:UT *NOT* Open Source!!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

They can't open source the engine, as Brandon says, it's been licensed out for use in other games (though I can't think of any names at the moment).

Excellent! Now to fix the installation...

[Mr. Flibble]

I know that UT uses the Loki Installer (I know this because I bought UT the other day). I have been jumping through hoops to get it installed. I finally figured it out, after downloading multiple tarballs and RPM's. The (current) install is unfortunatly a bit hard.

Nothing that the average Linux user cannot handle, as we are used to "doing it ourselves". (I am still miffed at GT for not allowing Epic to include the Linux binaries on the CD).

I just hope that the installation is refined like Quake 3 Arena's. (note to Enlightenment users, for some reason the current version of UT does NOT run under E, the demo does, but the full version does not.)

GreenMarines sourcing of these libraries should make it much easier for the community to code more Mesa support (this I know is obvious).

Remember, if you buy the game (please do!) mark on the registraion card in very obvious print (red works well) Purchased for use with Linux as there is no place to mark your OS of choice.

Let the folks at GT know we are out here. :)

Re:Excellent! Now to fix the installation...

[Anonymous Coward]

FWIW, UT runs fine under enlightenment. despite what people have been saying.

maybe my system is just special. :)

redhat 6.1 with default enlightenment/gnome setup. UT works fine.

not totally open source

[octover]

only parts of UT are being open sourced specifically these libraries as it states in Brandon's .plan
I plan on open sourcing the following libraries:
XDrv
XMesaGLDrv
GlideDrv
Audio
XLaunch
who is better ID or Epic Games is still very debatable.

Why does this sound bad to me?

[Frac]

From what's said so far, it seems to me that they aren't opening up their entire engine.

It almost sounds like Apple opening up parts of OS X so the "open source community" can hack away and improve the sales of their commercial product.

And with a little imagination, you can parallel their intentions with Sun - they want to have the advantages of open source without the disadvantages, which are: control of code, and loss of commercial value.

The Unreal engine has made lots of money in terms of licensing for Epic Games - I wasn't totaly surprised that they didn't release all the source. But do notice that the most prized and valuable code that makes the Unreal engine tick is still locked up away from everyone else.

Why? I think Brandon explains it fairly clearly in his .plan:

1. To improve the quality of the Linux port of UT. I'll admit that I simply don't have the time to spend on this port. Disclosing the source gives everybody a chance to make the code better.

I'm not trying to sound bratty and trying to whine Epic into releasing everything (not that it would work anyways ;), but I don't understand why we should hack for Epic for the same reasons why we shouldn't hack for Sun.

now everybody get to work and make the linux code better, so Epic can sell more engines!

Frac

Re:Why does this sound bad to me?

[Mr. Flibble]

In light of Carmack's current comments on Quake 1 and creating a closed source client/server verification to prevent cheating, I think its just fine that they are not opensourcing the entire engine.

Don't get me wrong, I think that opensource is a great thing, but not EVERYTHING has to be open-source. Perhaps Epic will opensource UT at some later date, perhaps not. But, it IS their code, and it is their licence, hence they can do with the code what they see fit.

The true beauty of GreenMarine putting the source out is that we -the linux community- will benifit by having the game improved for us (and by us). The other benifit, is that as UT improves on the Linux platform, more people may think about trying (or switching to) Linux.

Still, having part of the code opened is a wonderful thing. Heh, now if we can take this code and make it faster/more playable than the windows version.... MUAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!

Re:Why does this sound bad to me?

[emerson]

The comparison with Sun is profoundly unfair.

Sun's SCSL can be simplified to what you describe -- hack on our code so you improve our product for us, and no, you can't use the code for anything outside of our product. That's the reason it's caused such an uproar, and is not considered properly 'free' or 'Open Source(tm)' by most folks.

Epic is releasing this code under the Artistic License, meaning you can take this code away and do just about whatever you like with it, separate from Epic's commercial product. Sure, Epic will benefit from contributions to this source tree, but anyone else can also use this source for just about anything they want, including games that compete with Unreal Tournament. This is the Right Thing(tm) for Epic to have done.

Your objections make it sound as though you wouldn't be happy unless Epic _couldn't_ make money off of others' contributions, and that just doesn't make sense.


--

Re:Why does this sound bad to me?

[Anonymous Coward]

"I'm not trying to sound bratty and trying to whine "

You are doing both.

"but I don't understand why we should"

check out projects such as counter-strike for Half-Life and countless mods for other fps games. Opening the code for many portions of this code will allow these same people to expand on their ideas without the limitations of calling a dll.

I'm sure there are people who will also want to play with the unreal linux code.

You're being ungrateful. You don't have to use what is given or bitch about it either. The partially open code isn't a command -- it's an offer. Whether people pick up the code and mould it into something usable is another matter.

God, I'm getting sick of the every which way negative at a whim speculators on this forum.

Re:Why does this sound bad to me?

[Ledge Kindred]

"The true beauty of GreenMarine putting the source out is that we -the linux community- will benifit by having the game improved for us (and by us). The other benifit, is that as UT improves on the Linux platform, more people may think about trying (or switching to) Linux."

This always sounds trite when you hear people say it about Application "X" being ported to Linux, but just last night I was at a friend's house, fragging away at him with the Linux version of UT when another friend of ours stopped by and made a comment of the "Wow! Check out those awesome graphics! This looks like a cool game! Now you're going to try to tell me you're running it on Linux right?" Joking because of COURSE games like that don't run on Linux. Well, we told him it was, he was amazed, and it was one more chip away in his Windows userishness. (He's already jealous of the way we don't have to keep reinstalling our machines any time something weird happens...)

The moral of the story? I dunno. I guess that having a cool game running well under Linux is probably going to do a lot more for getting people to want to switch than the fact that Apache runs over 50% of the world's web servers.

-=-=-=-=-

Re:Why does this sound bad to me?

[N1KO]

OH, yes of course. They are pure evil. All this time, making us think they wanted to port their game to linux they really wanted us to help them make more money by fixing the mesagl renderer, the x libraries and the audio libraries. There is only on question left. What will they do with the billions of dollars they will make from the bug fixes?

Re:Why does this sound bad to me?

[Anonymous Coward]

heh heh heh

Re:Why does this sound bad to me?

[Frac]

Funny thing is that if Sun truly opened up their source for Solaris, *except* their kernel, because they intend to sell it, you wouldn't be chiming this sarcastic tune.

Re:Why does this sound bad to me?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is this significantly different than Mod/Map making? Both involve extremem amounts of time, dedication, and skill. And the ability to edit and modify the 'vanilla game' has been the absolute key to Quake (and followers) success. Now it's a staple of every major contender. In previous instances various map and mod authors have been ripped off (remember those level compilation CDs?). Although that has been alleviated somewhat (mod authors getting royalties - Quake II Netpack 1, etc.), game companies (specifically the publishers) have been _very_ good about preying on the free work of their hard working (and playing) fans.

FWIW: Those that really love UT, Epic, and the UT community will probably go right ahead and forge onward. Several of the key players and contributors will probably do at least a stint in the gaming industry as a result. The rest of the users get to enjoy the fruits of their (free) labors.

So those are just another couple things to take into consideration. As always, decisions revolve around your self-interests unless there's something 'greater'.

Re:Why does this sound bad to me?

[Michael Samuel]

Why do hackers ever program for anyone?

Well, they do it for that 1 special person in their life; themselves ;-)

If I owned UT, I'd hack at the source, if only to get a few extra frames/sec out of it. Wouldn't you?

I'd be suprised if there are any coders out there who wouldn't.

I know you are trolling, but...

[FascDot Killed My Pr]

RMS doesn't say we should call Linux "GNU/Linux" because of the license (GPL). The reason he says that is that, while the kernel is Linux, most of the rest of the OS is GNU tools (i.e., written by and/or donated to the Free Software Foundation).

Since Unreal presumably doesn't use GNU tools, there would be no request to add to the name.
---

Doubtless

[Diamond Slicer]

Doubtless that cheaters will come. Cheaters are like vultures to a carcass. They will appear but given the fact that many people prefer Q3 over U.T. and U.T is fairly new, it should take a fair amount of time for them to have a real effect.

I myself prefer U.T. over Q3. (I am lucky enough to have gotten both for Christmas)

Clarification

[Corrinne Yu]

Clarification.

Silly.

id/Carmack has always done that.

Epic is "opening" the game mod interface, not the underlying rendering libraries.

Quake/Quake II/Quake 3 Arena have always done that. Probably in a few days, after Carmack has cleaned up his code, final Q3A game mod headers and interfaces would be posted.

(Then have fun and lock yourselves into a room. :) )

OTOH, Tim Sweeney's ZZT is one of the earliest "open" mod "engines" (OK, so it is a 2D text-character based "engine") engineered with the plans for public/open expansion. This precedes Doom, and the Doom wad community.

P.S. Tim/Brandon/John should post these clarifications themselves here.

Corrinne Yu
3D Game Engine Programmer
3D Realms/Apogee


Corrinne Yu
3D Game Engine Programmer

Re:Clarification

[Corrinne Yu]

The "silly" part is *not* in reference to Epic/Brandom/Tim/et al.

It is in ref to all the "id is not good enough", and then "epic is not good enough" posts.

When id has been "opening" their latest interfaces very soon, when epic has been doing open engines before doom, etc.

I am as tired of ut sux q3a sux posts as the next guy.

I frequently fwd my epic /. posts to tim. If he/epic is offended they would have let me know.

P.S. Many people not from 3D Realms have already "clarified" the "status" of the "Prey" engine and other 3D Realms projects in public many times, thank you very much. :)


Corrinne Yu
3D Game Engine Programmer

Re:Clarification

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey Corri, get your 3d realms colleagues to release sources to Duke Nukem 3D and Terminal Velocity!

Re:Clarification

[Corrinne Yu]

http://www.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=99/12/21/2 210251&cid=374
Corrinne Yu
3D Game Engine Programmer

Re:Clarification

[Anonymous Coward]

..something that I don't recall 3drealms, id, or anyone else ever doing....save Tim Sweeney and ZZT

Exqueze me? Then you can't have been aware that the Quake (1 and 2) game code has been available for years, allowing end-users to make whatever they mods they want. Threewave CTF for Quake1 was probably the most important of such end-user mods, as it became the "official" Quake2 and Quake3 CTF mod.

As for Corrinne - what the hell do you want from her? Blood?

If people here don't stop being so damned bratty and hostile to every well-known game developer that turns up they'll go away.

As for Prey (or any next-generation game engine): These things take time. Be patient.

Its not GNU, but its definitely good for us.

[CWarden]

This is a really good thing for UT. Not to bring up the endless UT vs Q3 debate but I've been sensing a lot of anti-UT sentiment among the Linux/Slashdot community that I just *DONT* understand. I tried to get UT working under Linux and it has been a real *pain*, and I've not found a lot of help, just a lot of "UT sux, get Q3" from most of the gamer-linux guru's I know. I'm hoping that while this isn't exactly open source (some of the libs for 3d will be opensource, according to what I read from the .plan) it will endear UT to more of the linux community.

In my opinion these are both REALLY good games. UT for the moment is the winner in terms of variety and cooperative play (my personal favorite variant), but I imagine the Q3 mod community will be churning add-ons out real quick.

Q3, of course, has the better "deathmatch", where they have always excelled. And the rendering and graphics are definitely better than UT. Regardless, I really dig both of these games, and hope more people with not be biased one way or another. Its just a game people.

Re:Its not GNU, but its definitely good for us.

[Legion303]

I can't speak for the rest of the linux community, but I think UT is a blast. As for getting it to run...tar zxvf the .tgz files in the UT client to your install directory (mine was installed in windows before I found the linux binaries) and rm the UnrealTournament.ini file. Works like a charm.

-Legion

Actually, no.

[Andy Dodd]

Unreal's "mod" code has (I think) always been out since day one. It's some sort of scripting language (UnrealScript?)

They've one-upped id here, at least slightly, in terms of what they've released in their engine. id did NOT release their renderers and audio libraries.

Of course, UT's network code is what needs improvement the most, as I mentioned in a previous post. (If this is "vastly improved", then the original Unreal must've been horrific!) - that wasn't released. :(

Don't take this as saying that I don't support id at all - They've got a LONG history of doing this, while Epic is probably only doing this because they have to match id or UT will be blown out of the water by Q3.

I'm definately buying Q3, and after this development, I'm reconsidering UT.

command line

[abelsson]

> Now, I need a few recommendations. Can anyone
> recommend a good GUI to cvs? Or should I learn
> the command line interface (it seems
> tedious, but I'm used to SourceSafe)?

Argh. What has the world come to?

Re:command line

[Zach Baker]

Dude, SourceSafe's interface is slick. In Windows I settle for WinCVS when I'm working on my own projects. WinCVS is pretty creaky, but it's very satisfying to be able to instantly see which files I've changed (icons!), click on them and commit the changes. Maybe GUIs aren't your thing, but I appreciate never having to memorize or look up command-line arguments. BTW, the jCVS interface looks good and KDevelop has some kind of CVS support.

API interface

[Corrinne Yu]

What with all the UT v Q3A threads which I do not read.

It would be real fun after both UT and Q3A release their API interfaces for mod in short near future.

Would like to read msgboard peer reviews analysis pro con of UT v Q3A "script" mod API interface, from coding, programming, app development, modding, and even language theory and design perspective.

"Lang" discussion of UT v Q3A is the truly more interesting "versus" conversation we can have on the 2 products.

Corrinne Yu
3D Game Engine Programmer
3D Realms/Apogee


Corrinne Yu
3D Game Engine Programmer

Re:API interface

[Anonymous Coward]

If you'd like, you can get started by reading the Unreal Technology Page, over at http://unreal.epicgames.com

You'll find that most everything you need to mod UT has been there since the beginning of December or so. Brandon has done a great job of detailing everything but weapons and pickups, but they're due soon.

Hope that helps.

RMS says it....

[GNUs-Not-Good]

because he likes to take credit for other people's work. That is my point.

Please pass the kool-aid.

UT is not being open sourced

[arielb]

if you want an open source game, look at Quake 1. Despite the provacative headline, only peripheral parts of UT is being opened up. But to say that this is truly revolutionary is a bit too much. No major game company will open source their latest games.

Cheaters will always be there...

[Latrell Sprewell]

Cheaters will always be around, whether a project is open or closed-source. Look at all the cheats that have been around for Quake 1 and Quake 2. Quake2 is closed source, yet it has had numerous aimbots (ZBot, Zorbot, RATBOT), transparent walls (an ill-advised revision of Metabyte's WickedGL driver), radar scanners (ZBot), illegal power-up timers and graphics hacks (VSE Timer, Nitro/Xania proxies), etc. While I don't play Unreal Tournament, it would be naive to believe that someone somewhere with time on their hands hasn't already hacked up a cheat for it, as well.

Re:Actually Andy, no.

[Frac]

They've one-upped id here, at least slightly, in terms of what they've released in their engine. id did NOT release their renderers and audio libraries.

id didn't have to release their renderers and audio libraries, because q3a was designed to be platform-independent to begin with, and they have more competent Linux coders working for them. Brandon admitted in his plan that he released those parts of the code because he couldn't make it better (work more properly), and hopes that someone else can fix it for him.

They've got a LONG history of doing this, while Epic is probably only doing this because they have to match id or UT will be blown out of the water by Q3.

ditto. but their "grace" in opening up parts of their code seems like a wolve in open source clothing to me. Frac

Explain

[FascDot Killed My Pr]

What "other people's work" is RMS trying to take credit for?
---

Re:Explain

[GNUs-Not-Good]

Linux.

GNU is a cult. They recruit the young and impressionable. They are mainly college students who can't afford to buy software, so they think GNU is great. Free, Free, Free.

Then the members of the cult follow blindly what RMS says. Evey Slashdot story is followed by the standard "RMS is right on" subject lines. I will follow RMS and listen to everything he says. Until he pushed the GNU crap on the Linux name, no one called it that. But the mindless ones, they don't care. What every Tricky Dick says must be.

Meanwhile, these same people laugh at ZDNet for buying into what Bill Gates says, without realizing that they are just as mindless as the drones on ZDNet with regards to Windows.

Then, the college students go out into the real world and get jobs (at closed source companies of course), and they are replaced by a new crop of GNU heads.

Like I said, pass the kool-aid.

So, Waddaya Want?

[Midnight Ryder]

This is a question I once tried to get posted as an "Ask Slashdot" - what does the Linux commmunity want from game developers?

For instance - it's pretty hard to release the entire commerical game as Open Source, and expect it to make money. I agree with RMS's "Free Speech" aspect, but, also realize that it's a business for making money. (I've got my own little game company, looking at doing more and more recently...) How should a game developer make the ballance between Open Source, and the business of making money based off of entertament value of the software produced?

Is there a good solution for game developers who want to start supporting Linux, who want to 'do the right thing' and start letting people get access to the source, without loosing tons of cash over it?

Re:So, Waddaya Want?

[Anonymous Coward]

I have thought about this "problem" myself. The only answer that I could come up that I thought was semi reasonable was, that you as a game developer are creating a whole game...not just the game engine. What that whole game includes is the game engine, art, music, levels, documentation, etc etc. So you box the game and sell it on retail shelves and make your cash there. Open Source the engine and put it up for download on the net. There might be cons to this whole idea for example competition using this engine you spent a lot of R&D $$s on and making a better game. But then you gotta make sure you have a good design team to make a kick ass game.

Open to ideas on this.

Kow

Re:So, Waddaya Want?

[Midnight Ryder]

One thing I've looked at was for 3D based stuff, just using the Crystal Space 3D engine. I put whatever I need that it doesn't alread support in there. I benefit from not having to develop and engine from scratch, and Crystal Space benefits from the stuff I add. Then I suppose the only thing I'm worrying about the rights to will be the actual gameplay, and the datafiles (art, music, levels, etc.). And of course, the upside is, it's nice and portable to just about everywhere.

However - that does mean a section is still closed - the actual gameplay (the 3D engine only does so much for you.) And that's only for 3D stuff. Any good 2D solutions out there that I don't know about?

Please elaborate

[FascDot Killed My Pr]

When you say "Linux", do you refer to the Linux kernel or the Linux "Operating System"?
---

Re:Please elaborate

[Anonymous Coward]

Or the air conditioners

Typical....

[GNUs-Not-Good]

cult ramblings.

Linux is the operating system. GNU products make up a small percentage of the software in the distribution.

Pass the Kool-Aid.

Cheating killed chess via mail (and later email)

[Anonymous Coward]

Even the live interactive chess servers (where you can supposedly play against other people) are a wasteland now. Too many people were just feeding the other player's moves into GNUChess or what have you, and ruining the game.

Alien vs Predator

[LL]

Looks like the gaming engine world is starting on the slippery slope to the degenerate stage of nit-picking over the merits of each gaming engine. However, I would like to point out that it would be a worthwhile endeavour for the gaming companies to define a compatible API/script language/whatever so that other people can develop smarter AIs/bots/whatever that are portable across multiple gaming generations. One particular advantage I can think of is that it allows more persistant player development in that you can build up a character (let's face it, people can become attached to a persona) and allow them to retain them across the different releases. Plus I can see possibilities opening up in terms of new wrinkles.

Speaking of new wrinkles, after observing the recent Quake client look-ahead crack, I've always wondered what tactics would work on a precog (effectively what a client with perfect future knowledge is).

LL

Re:Alien vs Predator

[Midnight Ryder]

hehhee - That's one of my 'research projects' I've been working on for my little company.

Wouldn't it be great if the scripts and API were able to survive across platforms, multiple game versions, and even multiple games? IE - don't like the sniper rifle in UT? No problemo - just load in the Rail Gun from Quake III instead! Nice object oriented scripts that talk to a common API that more than one game uses. It's a great concept - I'm not so sure it's as good in execution.

The other thing is, that would allow mod developers to create 'universal' mods that work on more than one game. I find that to be a cool concept.

Of course, there's problems. Games are developed with a specific 'vision' behind them. Importing an object from a previous game or competing game may unbalance things considerably. However, that's not that big of a deal, in a way - in a situtation like online gaming where the server admin determins what stays and what goes, he is allowed to tweak the ballance however he wants.

The other problem is - even with a common API, how does that determine what the real effect of a weapon is going to be in future generations of games? IE - the new monster is immune to fire, but, the flamethrower from QIV only passes information in terms of damage, not in terms of fire damage. There's quite a few situations where this would simply screw up. (I've seen ways around quite a few of the issues - problem is, you have to continuously expand the API in an attempt to come up with all situations, or limit yourself to what the API supports in the next game. Both choices suck.)

Good, keep going, you're doing fine

[FascDot Killed My Pr]

GNU products make up a small percentage of the software in the distribution.

A few questions:

1) "small percentage" counted how? Number of packages? Lines of code?

2) Which pieces of software in a distribution count as part of the "operating system" and which count towards "applications". For instance, I'm assuming Netscape Navigator isn't part of the operating system. How about X? How about "tar". How about fdisk?
---

You have...

[GNUs-Not-Good]

been sucked into the cult.

A few days ago, several GNU heads almost admitted as much. It took some coaxing though. That was after a lot of "You don't understand.", "We know the truth", and other things that cults say.

The fact is that there is no such thing as GNU/Linux, no matter what your "leader" tells you.

What flavor kool-aid did you get?

Who sounds more like a cultist?

[FascDot Killed My Pr]

The person talking in a calm, reasonable voice about facts and only facts? Or the person spouting ill-defined and unwarranted (not to mention offensive: "kool-aid", indeed) abuse?
---

Clarification

[Anonymous Coward]

Clarification.

Surprising.

Corrine, it's surprising to me, an avid gamer, that while you slave away at *re*creating the Prey Engine from scratch, that you wouldn't keep your finger poised even modestly on the throbbing pulse of "what's happening" in the gaming world today.

The UT "Mod" source that you attempt to downplay as "all" Epic is giving us has actually been available since the DEMO of UT came out. Epic gave us gamers full modification rights to tweak our little deathmatch games to our hearts content, something that I don't recall 3drealms, id, or anyone else ever doing....save Tim Sweeney and ZZT

(I remember building levels in ZZT, but I don't recall if that was before or after it was purchased for me).


It really saddens me that during the Prey Media Blackout of 1996-1999, the only time we gamers get to hear from you is when you're poo-poo'ing the competitions efforts to give something to the community.


I rather doubt that you'd enjoy others 'clarifying' your future Prey statements in the same tone.

I am

[GNUs-Not-Good]

calm.

I am not going to argue about something that does not exist.

Listen, you can follow Stallman off the cliff if you want. It is your life. To come along 7 years after Linux has been out and slap his obnoxious prefix on someone elses work is rude.

The GPL is already viral, but I can see that the other germs have infected you too.

If you keep repeating it long enough, you might actually believe Stallman. He is a neo-communist, egomanical glory horder.

By the time I read down this far

[Biff Cool]

I forgot which one of you was trolling.

Conscience is the inner voice which warns us that someone may be looking.

Re:By the time I read down this far

[GNUs-Not-Good]

He was.

He just won't listen to reason.

Self-contradiction

[FascDot Killed My Pr]

To come along 7 years after Linux has been out and slap his obnoxious prefix on someone elses work is rude.

Just as I suspected, you have no clue.

Some of the work Stallman is "slapping his ... prefix" on is 15 years old. How can that be, Linux started in 1991? Exactly the point.

You see, the FSF has been working on a free operating system for quite a while. They have nearly all the tools they need (compilers, utilities, libraries, etc) but they lacked a kernel. Oddly enough a few years ago there was a kernel that was lacking everything else. Just like Reece's Peanut Butter cups they got together. Unlike Reece's, though, the package bears the name of only one of the members.

As for the other nonsense you emit, I have no comments except that you clearly don't know the meaning of the word "viral".
---

Re:Self-contradiction

[Anonymous Coward]

The FSF has needlessly duplicated the BSD utilities. Talk about stupid.

Re:Self-contradiction

[Anonymous Coward]

Because of a license advertising clause ;)

Re:Self-contradiction

[Anonymous Coward]

Because individual credit is just evil! Evil I tell you.

Re:Self-contradiction

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't here the word "chocolate" in "Reece's Peanut Butter Cup", do you?

Anyway, what is an operating system without a kernel? Anyone?

Repeat...

[GNUs-Not-Good]

the mantra.

You cut and pasted that from gnu.org

At least if you are going to be brainwashed, change up the words.

The only important question...

[Anonymous Coward]

is: What would Richard say?? This AL thing is perverse. It's not free. I can't sell it for money, and people can go private with it. How evil!

I don't understand

[FascDot Killed My Pr]

If you don't like Stallman/FSF/GNU why don't you boycott them? Or do you want to use the tools with one hand while flipping the finger with the other?
---

Re:I don't understand

[Anonymous Coward]

I do boycott them. That's why I use BSD. The only thing I need them for is the compiler, and I boycott their embarrass and extend extensions.

Re:I don't understand

[Anonymous Coward]

Boycott them? That's like boycotting air because somebody farted.

I use the FSF suite on my GNU/Solaris systems and my GNU/WindowsNT system. It's great.

Re:I don't understand

[GNUs-Not-Good]

Like I said, I use Linux, and all the tools that come with it, whoever makes them. I am sure that some of the software I use is made by bigger jerks than Stallman.

I don't object to the finished product. I object to the preaching from cult leaders.

Re:I don't understand

[Anonymous Coward]

A bigger jerk that Stallman? Like who -- Bill Jolitz? I'm not even sure *he* qualifies.

Re:I don't understand

[GNUs-Not-Good]

Yeah,

maybe I spoke too soon.

Re:I don't understand

[Biff Cool]

Jerry Pournelle... I'm pretty sure he's never written any software, but he wins my Jerk of the Millenium award

Conscience is the inner voice which warns us that someone may be looking.

Re:I don't understand

[Anonymous Coward]

What'a a `millenium'?

Re:I don't understand

[Anonymous Coward]

A thing I own a patent on. :)

Re:I don't understand

[Anonymous Coward]

Tom Christiansen? It's gotta be close.

E crash

[harhar]

the greenmarines posted this E problem as being the first bug that needs fixing, he pointed out the likely culprit also, check the sourceforge page.click on the bug link

GNU/Windows

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not GNU/Windows. It's X/Windows, you idiot.

Re:GNU/Windows

[Anonymous Coward]

Fine. GNU/X-Windows/NT them. But I think you don't understand me. I'm not running X11. Just the GNU system on Windows NT. That's why it's GNU/Windows(NT).

Re:GNU/Windows

[Anonymous Coward]

ne1 got accelx for my gnu/NT?

Please forgive me...

[GNUs-Not-Good]

I did not mean to upset the leaders.

BTW, great interview.

my cult can beat up your cult

[Anonymous Coward]

.

Re:my cult can beat up your cult

[GNUs-Not-Good]

no way....The GNU cult is expert in twisting words like freedom until your head spins and you pass out from the sheer lack of logic.

are you married?

[Anonymous Coward]

.

hey gamer coder chick

[Anonymous Coward]

Shouldn't you be, like, helping get Duke Nukem (this project is fucking taking) Forever done?

Isn't there a game called 'Prey' that you should be working on? Or is that now outdated with such kick butt titles like q3arena and UT?

Why is your website so slow? Are you running it on a 57.6 connection?

BTW, 3d Realms hasn't put out anything in ages. Aren't y'all going under?

PS: are you fat?

Re:hey gamer coder chick

[Anonymous Coward]

you call that a coder chick? dude her job is to rip off code from unreal or choose-your-engine of the day and repackage it as Duke Puke'm Forever. I bet you that game is going to have a suck ass plot and multiplayer is gonna be laggy. And when it happens im gonna blame it on corrinne yu! muhahah

ho hum

[Anonymous Coward]

I just hope I finally get to play the dang thing... I have yet to get it going... I played the hell out of the demo but the final version does not work for me...

forgot the link in my previous post -- there it is

[bibos]

umm i forgot the link LOL

www.linuxgames.com

A couple notes.

[GreenMarine]

Anything Epic releases to open source becomes free software. We won't "sell" the Linux port just as you are not allowed to "sell" a derivative.

Once I get everything together (tomorrow probably, Tim is here but I'm pretty tired) I'll upload a simple tarball release so people can start playing around. Then I'll work on learning rcs and get that set up.

I can foresee companies developing games entirely opensource, but still selling a game...the code is freely obtainable, but the content (maps, textures, models) must be purchased.

I think there is room for open source in commercial software development. I just think that its going to be a while before you see the games industry take up that particular mode of operation.

Finally, a clarification on what we will be releasing.

XDrv.so - This handles window creation, viewport creation, keyboard and mouse input, and all the X windows related stuff.

Audio.so - This is the simple audio library I wrote to mix the sound effects in Unreal Tournament for Linux.

XMesaGLDrv.so - This is the Mesa render device. It implements the engine's render calls and uses the Mesa graphics lib to draw the 3d world.

GlideDrv.so - Same as the XMesaGLDrv.so, but it uses glide.

XLaunch - This executable loads and inits the engine, then starts the main loop. You can actually do quite a lot with this.

--

The bottom line is this: I like to play kick ass games. The Linux port of UT is not kick ass. I don't have the time to make it better, so instead of having it languish on my harddrive I'll give it out to anyone who wants it. You don't have to do anything with it. You could take it and write cool stuff and if you want you could contribute it to me. Its all voluntary.

Yes, it'd be great to improve the Linux port of UT. It really needs work! At the same time, I've been working my ass off to support the mod community. Check unreal.epicgames.com for a fast growing new document on writing mods for Unreal Tournament. I've been working with mod authors and mod teams to get them understanding the Unreal Tournament scripting language. This is another facet of that support.

There is nothing ever wrong with giving people more stuff to play with. Most of these guys making mods aren't trying to make money! They don't want to sell their mods. They just want to make cool addons for people to play and maybe to get noticed. This gives another way for a programmer to do that.

Tim responded to an email discussion between Corinne Yu and me. He says that he likes open source because of the power it gives the community to do new things with the engine. He does not, however, like the idea of merging other peoples code back into the engine. I don't mind the latter as long as its on a small scale.

Re:A couple notes.

[BeanDip]

It's great to see that you are releasing these componants. I own UT and only use linux so it was a dissapointment not to be able to hear music or keep the game running longer than say 5 or 10 minutes. I am very impressed with the engine, but the audio and stability of the game need a lot of work. Hopefully other companies with interest in entering the linux community will be willing to open source the less stable componants of their games in much the same way as you are doing. This will prevent half assed products from entering the market as "linux compatible". Again I commend you on your decision and thank you for the great product.. Even if you did do a half-ass job porting it (j/k I think you did a hell of a job... just wish it wouldn't crashout and fuck up my X, console, and glide)
Nathan R. Ben-Attar
"First things first -- but not necessarily in that order"

Re:A couple notes.

[Anonymous Coward]

On my dual boot machine, I've played both the Linux port and the Windows port. I must say that the Linux port is just as stable for me as the Windows port. I'm using Mandrake 6.1 and with the exception of no music and the requirement to use my Voodoo2, my belief is that the Linux port is fantastic. I applaud the release of the source because in just a short amount of time, Brandon created an extremely playable, compatible (w/windows servers) and enjoyable game. To me, it is kickass and can and will only get better once the community gets its hands around it.

Re:A couple notes.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah I'm a coward.. Not really, just don't want to take the time to fill in these forms... I think UT runs EXCELLENT on my linux box. I have a PII300 with a monster 3D II an ensoniq audioPCI sound card, 92 megs ram running redhat6.1. I have had NO problems whatsoever. NONE at all. No crashing, no problems connecting either. Sounds works flawlessy to. I don't know why you guys think it's unstable, maybe I'm missing something. The only "issue" i've had was it being a little slow. But I think that's because it's only 92 megs ram, a VooDoo II or that it's only a 300... I don't know.. but it runs solid and stable.. just doesn't run fast enough for me:) Thanks Brandon... keep contributing to the linux community:)

Re:A couple notes.

[HardBody]

I don't run UT Retail on a Linux box as a client, but as 3 dedicated servers. I have a total of 36 connections which is well below what we allow our Q2 and Q3 servers. Running a PII 400/256M the main issue I have is merely the CPU and the lack of all available "nice", whence these servers are running - even with as few as 12 total players connected across all three servers. Q2 and Q3 both are at least 50% more efficient. I am going to attempt an experiment this coming week if I can wrangle a couple more IP addresses out of our tight fisted engineering group. I am hoping there will be some relief if not in CPU usage, certainly the seemingly overcrowding at the door on the ethernet ports - even though it is 100BaseT, and the Max Peak throughput is 2 Mbit/s. I am thinking that the timing of packet tx and rx are more critical on multilevel servers, as the inprovements in CPU processing from the game core is less and less likely. I LOVE UT, but I completely refuse to convert my Server to NT just to run it. This would create many more problems than it would ever solve, making note of how poorly it performs everything else compared to Linux - I may have to educe the number of levels running to 2! Winblows is NOT an option for any self respecting Server Admin. my .02 worth HB Shaw@Home servers

BTW, Why won't Slashdot release THEIR source?

[Anonymous Coward]

Seems as good a time to ask as any...

Re:BTW, Why won't Slashdot release THEIR source?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because they subscribe to the FSF/GNU sort of freedom hypocrisy.

Re:Actually Andy, no.

[Andy Dodd]

Um, that's not true.

Try using pre-GPL GLQuake1 with anything other than a 3Dfx board.

It's possible, but trust me, it's NOT fun. This avoids the possibility of that happening. If the APIs change, it's easy to update the renderers.

UT vs. Q3A (ot)

[Ledge Kindred]

"...Epic is probably only doing this because they have to match id or UT will be blown out of the water by Q3."

Dunno. I don't want to start any flame wars, because I know everyone will have their own opinions, but my opinion is that I enjoy UT a lot more than I do Q3A. I bought both as soon as they were available mostly because I wanted to do as much as I could to show my support to these companies for supporting Linux, not because I'm some kind of FPS maniac, because I'm not.

I played UT first, so that might have biased my opinion a little, but after getting a couple friends to play them both too, I'm not so sure.

Q3A seems to have better overall framerate. Which isn't such a surprise considering who wrote the danged engine. UT seems to have better "playability" for lack of a better term.

A friend of mine who has now also played both made the comment that "Q3A 'feels like' an arcade game" while UT "feels like" a really nice FPS. Q3A, to me, has some dreadfully boring weapons, it's maps are... well... mostly red, orange and brown, and the bots on the one hand don't seem to be very smart and on the other run around like weasels on speed, making it virtually impossible to hit them.

UT on the other hand, has a really diverse collection of maps, great weapon selection (and the sounds that go along seem to be better in production quality, too, making them more fun to play with) and its bots in many cases have been hard for me to tell if I was playing a bot or another person. (Granted, not a very good person, but still...)

I dunno, like I said, I'm not trying to start a flame war, but Q3A really kind of gave me the same impression as the new Star Wars movie -- a lot of hype and then it really was just "OK" for the most part. (Well, ok I HATED TPM, but you get the idea...) Not to say that Q3A isn't fun, it is, but I don't think Epic has anything to worry about Q3A digging them a big hole to go lie down in. A LOT of people are enjoying UT and doing a lot of third-party mods for it.

I guess I just kind of take exception to that comment in the same way I would take exception to someone saying something like "Well, now that Linux is on the scene, I guess FreeBSD is just gonna die." They're just different and they will each have their fans and personally I'm glad they're BOTH running on Linux.

-=-=-=-=-

Re:UT vs. Q3A (ot)

[Andy Dodd]

Might as well clarify that statment - I was mainly referring to sales to Linux fans who pay attention to how a company treats them and WILL take philosphy into consideration when making purchasing decisions.

I agree with you on most of your points.

Quake 3: Kickass engine, both graphically and network-wise. Cheesy artwork, levels, etc.

UT (at least the demo) Graphically close to Q3. Networking code blows. (Again, I'd hate to see internet play of the original Unreal if UT's code is so vastly improved...) The gameplay of UT demo was amazing in theory as far as weapons/rules/etc, and would have gotten me completely addicted had the networking code not been absolutely horrendous compared to QuakeN where N=1,2, or 3.

In the long run, Q3 is better. Bad levels/sounds/artwork are easily fixed by mod authors. The serious engine deficiencies of UT are not.

IMHO Quake2 was id's pinnacle with respect to artwork and sound effects contributing to a rich environment. But I never liked the multiplayer that much.

QuakeWorld is the king of multiplayer, although Q3 is pretty good. UT would be a killer app if it had QW's netcode. (Some have argued that QW netcode is even better than Q2/Q3 - I'm inclined to agree with them at least somewhat...)

Ummmm...

[FascDot Killed My Pr]

So you are a hypocrite.

You'll use the tools, but won't give the time of day to the methods used to create them. Talk about stupid.
---

Re:Ummmm...

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you use Microsoft products at all? Play Quake? Use Netscape?

Anywhere?

If you do then you give credit to closed source development.

Do you wear clothes made in a sweatshop?

Ahh...so you support those labor practices.

I don't care how any of the software is made. It is a tool, not a way of life, but you sound like a tool also.

Please cut and paste some more propaganda from gnu.org.

Let's try and twist the word freedom one more time. Let's infect people with the GPV.

Whoa, some obstinate trolls here!

[Anonymous Coward]

See the link http://slashdot.org/code.shtml This is the 'FSF Hyprocracy' you mention? Geez it's not that hard to find! Look on the top left hand corner of the screen: the SECOND item, just under FAQ! You dolts. Cheers Andy

Whoa, some obstinate trolls here!

[Anonymous Coward]

See the link http://slashdot.org/code.shtml

This is the 'FSF Hyprocracy' you mention?

Geez it's not that hard to find! Look on the top left hand corner of the screen: the SECOND item, just under FAQ!

You dolts.

Cheers

Andy

Clue coming....

[GNUs-Not-Good]

that is not the code running this site.

The code that is running this site is not available for download.

Please get your facts straight before feeding trolls. You might get your hand bit.

nope

[Anonymous Coward]

she's single. and fat. :)

I agree

[Anonymous Coward]

UT doesn't suck

Q3A doesn't suck

Prey sucks :-)

Squeezed

[Anonymous Coward]

Show me an id, 3drealms, or other DEMO DEMO DEMO (thrice as you didn't notice it the first time) where the makers said, "here's the demo, here's how to make mods, feel free to make mods for the demo" and I will eat a bug. IIRC, doom, doom][, duke3d, Q/Q2/Q3A, etc were all designed in such a way that the demo itself was not legally moddable.

What do I want from Corrinne? Nothing. I pointed out that her statement was/is wrong. Epic is *not* "opening up the game mod interface."
That's been open.

I was surprised that what Corrinne posted was erroneous. I posted. Hoo boy, that's bratty of me.

As for Prey, all I can say is:
Daikatana will probably beat it to stores.

you got a point there

[Anonymous Coward]

Duke Nukem Forever was gonna use the Quake 2 engine, then the Quake 3 engine, then the Unreal engine, and now they're using the Unreal Tournament engine.

According to their specs, the game Prey, on the other hand, will use "Ultra-advanced 16-bit colored, full radiosity lighting". woohoo. and "16 bit, hi-res texture art." Ph33r! "The game will be Windows95 native" - there goes Linux support.

Oh and check out this gem:
"HEAVY use of 3D accelerator cards such as 3DFX and Rendition. We suggest you get a card today, as they will soon become mandatory for 3D gaming on the PC."

Heh. What a loser prospect. The game will not beat Unreal Tournament. This Prey crap is D.O.A. Guaranteed it is.

OT : Duke Nukem

[Corrinne Yu]

Apologies for OT.

1. Duke Nukem Forever legally, officially, and publicly licenses UT code. There is no sinister ripping off here.

2. To maximize the glory that should go to Chris H. Nick S. Tim W., the real programmers officially on DNF, I am on a separate 3D engine coding project. The *glory* (and hopefully not blame) should definitely go to the team.

3. Blame the plot design or the multiplayer coding on me of DNF if you would like, but if you would like to praise the design or the multiplayer, it should go to George B. designer-in-charge and all the DNF designers/mappers and the above-listed coders.

4. What I write here should not be construed as any information about DNF. George B. and Scott M. are the owners of 3D Realms/Apogee.

5. It is hostility and reactions such as these that convince me it is wise policy to have media blackouts, and minimal discussion of our game development projects.
Corrinne Yu
3D Game Engine Programmer

hah

[Anonymous Coward]

Kabuto, The Neverending Story, Freespace 3, and Descent 4 will beat Prey to the stores.

Rogue Squadron-II will beat Prey to the stores. Half-Life III 3/4 will probably beat Prey to the stores.

The Complete Human Genome Project on DVD-ROM will beat Prey to the market. NASA will get a whole rock band setup on Mars before Prey is done.

FIDEL CASTRO WILL DIE BEFORE PREY IS DONE!!!!!

you forgot

[Anonymous Coward]

Team Fortress III will beat Prey to market :)

Re:you forgot

[billybob jr]

lol, when is TF II supposed to be out?
I've been playing Starsiege Tribes in the meantime. I wonder if TF II will be that good when it comes out or if they just keep changing it and improving it and never releasing it similar to other games mentioned earlier in this thread.

Corrinne is right

[Anonymous Coward]

You can only blame the crap that is Prey on her. :)

Re:Actually Andy, no.

[Zoid]

> Try using pre-GPL GLQuake1 with anything other than a 3Dfx board.

Yes, the old GLQuake code is kinda broken. But when I wrote it, the ONLY hardware solution was a 3DFX board for Linux! That was two years ago.

You can get glquake.glx to work, but you have to screw with it a bit. I was amazed glquake.glx worked since I wrote the glX version without a proper glX renderer (just a Mesa 3DFX in a window hack). There is a glibc version on the Linux Quake Boxed Set from MacMillan.

Of course, now that we've released the source, you should be able to get glquake.glx running in no time. :)

Do all ACs quote people out of context?

[Frac]

"I'm not trying to sound bratty and trying to whine "

You are doing both.

I don't believe that was my full quote. It wasn't a complete sentence that you quoted. Thats for butchering it to make your post sound though.

heck out projects such as counter-strike for Half-Life and countless mods for other fps games. Opening the code for many portions of this code will allow these same people to expand on their ideas without the limitations of calling a dll.

I think you're confusing mod code like UnrealScript with Brandon releasing code that doesn't work well under linux. It has more with "I can't fix this, I hope someone else will" than "here's the code to help out mod authors". If it's out there for mod authors, where's the artistic licensed version for win32? I believe you're the one not in the know.

I'm sure there are people who will also want to play with the unreal linux code.

Just like how there are people who wants to play with OS X's Darwin code and Sun's SCSL-licensed code. obviously you missed the whole point of my post, which wasn't simply about releasing the source.

You're being ungrateful. You don't have to use what is given or bitch about it either. The partially open code isn't a command -- it's an offer. Whether people pick up the code and mould it into something usable is another matter.

I'm not being ungrateful. I'm questioning the intention of their opening up of the code, and the usefulness of that code and its life outside the Unreal engine. Of course, you fail to address that point, and chose to twist and fiddle with my words to turn me into a whiner who wants the whole thing open sourced. If sheep like you who proclaim to be anti-whiners actualy think it's a good thing, then I can imagine other companies following suit soon with their partial-open-sourcing strategy.

Re:Actually Andy, no.

[Andy Dodd]

Don't blame you. That's the nice thing of UT having an open-source renderer - while people might not see a need for major changes now, who knows what's two years down the road. :)

I definately agree on the source release issue. I've read enough about the 3Dfx problems and the solutions that even I could probably fix the problem. If someone else hasn't done it, I will once I get back to my good 'ole cable modem. :)

Yeah, the usual ying yang thang

[DrSkwid]

Newton's third :
Every force or action has an equal and opposite reaction.




.oO0Oo.

UT mod opportunity, then a lot of OT :)

[Corrinne Yu]

http://www.unrealcontest.com

This appears to be a nice use for the open source, as well as the existing UT mod interface.

Put your code where your bragging is and show how much better at coding than me you are. :)

I was going to forgo /. forever after the unfortunately anger I unintentionally stirred up towards me, my projects, my gender, my looks, my company, and my company's projects because of my posting here.

But then I came across this and thought it may be good to share, even at risk of more flames and hatred! (flame retardant on alert :) )

/. is a hard site to give up. So a few quickies and I would work very hard to quit this site for good. :) (willpower, Corrinne, despite all the nifty stuff here. :) )

// company, projects hostility

The last thing I ever want to cause is such great hostility and anger towards my company and its projects.

I am sorry my personal /. participation causes so much anger. The best I can do is to withdraw.

Whatever harm and anger I caused I may not be able to take back. But please direct all your hatred at me and not my company and its projects.

// "prey"

I started on a rewrite, less than a year ago. I am doing this all by myself.

Given manpower and time elapsed, this particular coding project is hardly overdue.

As for "any" tech or spec about the project on the site, it is obviously outdated and incorrect of the current project. It was the "same" spec even before I started at the company.

Any article (and I came across a few) that claimed to have the latest information of "prey" engine has all been completely erroneous.

There is little point in my or my company discussing the engine when it is not coming out now, and not affecting your gaming future anytime soon.

I have been programming on many projects for over 10 years. Unfortunately, it was too long ago when I shipped a 3D engine game, when I was Systems Lead Programmer of the first Spec Ops.

I did lots of 3D coding (over the Quake engine, unlike Spec Ops which was not licensing) on Anachronox which unfortunately did not ship yet.

I am quite sure all of you posters have accomplished a lot more than I had, had a lot more experience, and code a lot better than me.

I merely have great enthusisasm, and lots of love for the work.

It is true many other games would be completed before my current project. I do not mind that. I am sorry that all of you do.

// gamer

I am a coder first, math-nut second. I love games very much after those two.

I have the same enthusiasm and sometimes fandom for a lot of the great works of gaming all around me. "Fan" or "gamer" wise all of you are probably a lot more 3l33t than me.

I used to have more time to keep in touch with games. As I spend more years coding, I end up with less time to enjoy these very games.

Most of you is a lot more in touch with gaming and being gamer than I am.

// looks

It is irrelevant whether I am fat. It is only relevant whether you enjoyed my coding before, and whether you will enjoy my coding in the far future.

Describing my own physical appearance in anyway strikes me as being flirtatious and ungraceful. I would now make such gauche faux pas and say that I am currently a little flabby with a 22 inch waist. I eat badly and code a lot. Most women are probably much more attractive than me.

Give you more to laugh at, heh? ;p

// this site

Originally I had sought at this site some kindredship, some thoughtful friendships and exchanges on math, physics, coding, gaming (but not fandom) and whatnot, without all the mania.

For a while, I was having that in small doses.

"Socializing" has always been my weakest skill. I have always been the nerdy geek being picked on and bullied. I didn't survive high school very well (like the katz stereotyped "kids" :) ) and it hadn't be very good for me even now, as obviously evidenced.

I make horrible "celebrity" or "personality." I am grateful for continual opportunities to allow me to continue to be able to code for games. There are a lot more other people who are better suited (and dress better) at be "glamor gaming coder sexxxy chick celeb" than me.

I am sorry I angered all of you so very much for being here. Didn't mean to.

I really don't do this board thing well, and I really should stop.

P.S. /me return to what I suck less at : coding.

P.P.S. Go flame more. Or not.
Corrinne Yu
3D Game Engine Programmer